equally assured that as well what is unwritten as what is written was preach'd by them as necessary to the Salvation of Mankind I must needs also own an equal Obligation upon me to believe them all alike But neither of these could I ever see clear'd nor can I conceive any hope that I shall hereafter And seeing the proof of both lies wholly upon them who affirm both I cannot be obliged to believe them till by such proof they have convinced me In the mean time it seems enough to me that God himself was pleas'd to signifie to the World his Will in writing which I cannot imagine why He should do had he not intended we should learn his Will from what is written and not from any unwritten Tradition And I am the more confirm'd in this Opinion by this that he did not use this way of revealing his Mind unto Men at the first nor till after the World had had a very long time to discern by experience the Unfaithfulness of unwritten Tradition So that this and some other Considerations whereupon the Papists use to ground their Arguments against both the Necessity and Perfection of the Scripture seem to me very fully to evince both the one and the other and so to leave no room at all for their unwritten Traditions as any part of the Rule of Faith and Life Yet seeing they who are always preaching this Doctrine to us That there is no Salvation for them that are not of their Communion preach it not as a private Opinion of their own or of some few others in that Communion but as the generally received Doctrine of that Church which pretends to be no less than Infallible it concerns me so much the more to use all possible diligence to find out what Truth there may be in this Assertion And that not only because I shall thereby discern the necessity of changing my Religion to make sure of my own future Happiness but also because the Determination of this one Point will at once put an end as it seems to me to all the Disputes that are now between the Papists and Us. If I can find it true that no Man can be saved out of that Communion I shall be a Fool to trouble my self with the Study of the Scriptures and seeking out for my self in them a Way to Heaven when I may be sure by stepping over the Threshold out of the one Church into the other to meet with an Infallible Iudg whom if I do but follow I cannot go amiss And to dispute any longer with my self whether I should do so or not would but shew me fitter for Bedlam than for any Church seeing none but the maddest Man alive would dispute for Damnation On the other side if I shall find it false that a Man cannot be saved out of that Communion I must needs be convinced that the Roman Church which hath determined it for a certain Truth hath already err'd both in Faith and Charity and that having erred she is not Infallible and being not Infallible by her own Confession cannot be that One Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church out of which there is no Salvation So that as this Assertion of that Church shall be found to be true or false even so will the Popish Religion appear also to be But here I meet with a very great Difficulty in my way as I am going to seek out the Truth or Falshood of this Assertion that however I may be able to satisfy my self yet I shall never for ought I can see be able to satisfy them who are the Authors of it any other way than by a total Submission of my own Iudgment and Conscience too to their Determination and a blind Obedience to their Will. The Dispute as is evident is between two Churches the one whereof challengeth to it self the big-swoln Prerogative of being the Lady and Mother of all Churches a Sovereign Authority of prescribing to the Faith of all Christians the Right and incommunicable Priviledg of being the Sole and Infallible Iudg of all Controversies in Religion finally an unquestionable Power of defining and declaring to all the World the true and only Terms of Salvation Now that this Roman-Mother and Mistress-Church sole Commandress and Infallible Iudg having already in the fulness of Power determin'd it and by her Supreme Authority imposed an Oath upon her Subjects to maintain it That none out of her Communion can be saved should after all this in pure Condescension to Men declared Hereticks divest her self of her Authority lay aside her Infallible Definitions come down from the Tribunal and the Throne of Iudicature and Majesty and stand at the Bar submitting her self and the whole Cause to an indifferent and equal Trial is a thing as little to be hoped for as it is yet unagreed upon by what Law Iury or Iudg the Controversy should be decided And truly on the other side it seems to me altogether as unreasonable in her to accept That we Protestants of the Church of England tho we pretend to nothing of this Exorbitant Power over Her or other Churches or of determining Disputes for all the World should yet upon a naked Summons from Her whose Authority we question and see no reason to acknowledg forthwith subscribe to the Sentence of our own Condemnation without any fair and legal Process or indeed so much as yield to a Trial where our professed Adversaries must be at once the Law-makers Accusers Witnesses and yet this is most notoriously our Case What course now in this Case can be taken by us The Church of Rome tells us expresly and peremptorily We cannot be saved out of her Communion Must we believe her without any more ado That 's indeed the way to make a short end of all our Differences for then we must yield to be Her 's or else run headlong to Damnation But if we believe her not as for my part I know not how we can do till we see some reason why we should do so the Dispute for ought I can see is like to be endless For no such reasons can or ought she to give us if she will be constant to her self and stand to her own Principles as will plainly appear anon and if she desert her own Principles she must yield her self to be fallible and not the true Church and then in vain is all talk of Reasons why they that are not of her Communion should be damned However suppose it be pretended as indeed it is that we have had sufficient Reasons given us why we ought to believe her in this Point This then is the present Question between us Whether she hath given us sufficient reason for this or no. She confidently affirms it We as confidently deny it She calls us obstinate Hereticks for denying it and lays many a heavy Curse upon us We for this think her a very unreasonable and imperious Mistress usurping an Authority over us which God never gave
Reason he denies that any Reasons can convince me because 't is plain they cannot convince me before I have judged of them and this I must do by my private Iudgment or by nothing for I have no other But here I am told We are allow'd to make use of our Reason to find out the true Church which may Infallibly guide us into all saving Truth All that is required of us is this that when we have once found this true Church we presume no longer to judg for our selves but captivate our Reason to the Infallible Iudgment of the Church This is something and yet it seems but extorted from them to make a little more plausible what to me seems one of the greatest pieces of Folly in the World I mean the attempt of convincing men by Reason who must not be allow'd to judg of the Reasons whereby they must be convinced I find Reason by a Traditionary Papist compared to a dim-sighted Man who used his Reason to find a trusty Friend to lead him in the Twilight and then reli'd on his Guidance rationally without using his own Reason at all about the way it self Thus are we allow'd Reason to find out the Church of ROME our sure Friend to guide us and on whose Guidance we must rationally Rely after we have captivated our Reason to her and for her sake have resolved to use it no more But now if this Reason which is to direct us to our Guide be such a dimsighted thing and as we heard before Hoodwink'd too so that whilst we follow it we can have no more hope than only that we may possibly stumble into the Catholick Church who will secure us that we shall not in this Twilight mistake a treacherous Enemy for a trusty Friend and then what shall we gain by our rational Reliance on him A dimsighted Man in the Twilight may easily mistake one thing for another else should he not much need a trusty Guide and why he may not mistake his Guide as well as his Way I do not yet know But that I may be satisfied how much I gain by this liberal Concession to use my Reason and private Iudgment in inquiring after the true Church I will a little consider how the PAPIST is wont to talk with me when he would persuade me to take his Church for my only sure Guide First he tells me There is but one true Faith and then that this Faith must be held entirely next that this entire Faith is nowhere to be found but in the true Church After this he begins again and tells me Christ hath a Church upon Earth That there is but one true Church That out of it there is no Salvation and lastly That the ROMAN Church and no other is that one true Church out of which there is no Salvation And till we have found that it is so he will give us leave to judg for our selves And I would thank him for this kindness if he would allow me to enjoy the benefit of it and to make any use of it otherwise it will look but like a Mockery I desire therefore some clear convincing Evidence That the ROMAN Church is the only true Church He cannot to this purpose produce the Consent of all Christians for two parts in three deny it Therefore he gives me a great many Marks or Signs sometimes more sometimes fewer whereby the only true Church must be known from others and spends a great many words in shewing me how they agree to the ROMAN Church and no other That wherein I would next have same Satisfaction is supposing that all his Marks agree to the ROMAN Church and no other how I may know that these are indeed the certain and incommunicable Marks and Proprieties of the only true Church To prove this he betakes himself to the HOLY SCRIPTURE and brings me thence some Texts whereby he says they are clearly proved to be so I now with a very hearty and sincere desire to learn the Truth and with all diligent use of such helps as I can come by read and consider all these Texts and cannot discern in them any Evidenee at all of the thing which they are brought to prove and therefore think it reasonable yet to call for some clearer proof But now when 't is come to this I presently find that his liberal Concession to make use of my Reason and private Iudgment to find out the true Church amounts to no more than I at first suspected that is just nothing For here he retires to his Principle of PORERY That I being a private Person ought not to judg for my self what is the Sense of those Texts of Scripture but must submit my Reason and Iudgment to the Iudgment of the Church yea even before I have found the Church and without any dispute receive the Sense of Scripture from her alone Thus he recals at once all that he had allow'd and undoes again whatsoever he had been adoing to persuade me to his Communion He was giving me Reasons which might convince me in my Iudgment and these at length resolve all into the Authority of the Scripture and yet of this Testimony of the Scripture I must not Iudg and therefore by it I cannot be convinced of any thing but this that the Church of ROME is resolved to be Mistress of all Christians and thinks it enough to convince us that she is so if whilst she sets some of her Sons to hold us up in empty talk of Scripture and Reason to no purpose she step out from behind the Curtain saying Believe it I am she Now I cannot possibly see whatever others may do for I keep yet to my Protestant Principles of Judging for no man but my self how I can embrace POPERY upon any conviction from PAPISTS and I fear I must either take it without any Reason for it or not at all If I cannot know the ROMAN Church to be the only true Church but by the Testimony of the SCRIPTURE and if I cannot understand the Testimony of the SCRIPTURE till I receive the true Sense of it from the ROMAN Church and if I cannot take that for the true Sense of it upon Her Declaration of it so to be unless moved by her Authority I must be persuaded to do the most unreasonable thing in the World to my thinking to believe a Church to be the only true Church for her own Authority which I yet know no more than I do her to be the true Church which it is all along supposed I do not know at all This I think not only unreasonable but impossible I must needs confess my self very hard to be persuaded of the tender goodness of that Mother who lest her Children should get hurt by the dimness of their sight will needs pull out their Eyes and keep them in her Pocket till she has taught them to use them better I am very loath to part with my Reason how dimsighted soever because
Responses The learnedst of the Romish Church are not yet well agreed about it and if the English Representer or French Expounder have had the luck to hit it I am sure that many heretofore who thought themselves as wise as either of them have strangely miss'd it Or else that Council and the Religion call'd Popery hath several Faces for several Times and Countries and in one place and time shall look like it self and in another shall be made to look as like the Protestant Religion as the Artificial Painter dares make it But that which here put us to a stand in this That as the Pope at first taught that Council to speak so hath he reserved the Interpretation of its Decrees to the See Apostolick or himself only and He is not always pleas'd in plain terms to let us know his Mind and if he should for once speak out plainly it will be a little hard for him to assure us that none of his Successors shall hereafter contradict him unless he can satisfy us that he has as well the Gift of Prophesying as that of defining and interpreting However it is for not believing the new Articles of Trent that we are accounted Hereticks and out of the way to Heaven And the reason is because these Articles are supposed to be as firmly grounded on the Word of God as any of those old ones which we believe For the Word of God saith the Council of Trent is partly contain'd in the Books of Scripture and partly in Traditions unwritten these are to be received with the same affection of Piety and Reverence and therefore he that disbelieves any Article grounded upon unwritten Tradition is no less a Heretick than he that disbelieves what is written in the Books of Scripture If I knew how to be satisfied concerning the Authority of this Council I could easily tell what Credit I should give to this which it so confidently affirms But so long as I cannot discern the reason of it's pretended Authority I am a little apt to suspect that it was not the clearness of this Principle that moved it to make so many either unscriptural or antiscriptural Decrees but rather the desire it had of vindicating its unscriptural Doctrines and Practices that made it necessary to espouse such a Principle And indeed when I well consider it I am not a little comforted by it that this equalling unwritten Tradition with Scripture which is the very Basis of the Romish Religion is one of the most incredible things in the World of it self and as destitute of any tolerable Evidence whence it may gain any Credit to it self It must needs seem very strange to any considering Man That the wise God should leave us a Rule in writing on purpose to direct us how to honour Him and attain to Salvation and give it this Commendation that it is able to make wise unto Salvation and yet omit a great many things altogether as necessary to those ends as those that are written and without the Belief and Practice whereof those that are written can no whit avail us and yet never so much as once tell us in all that Writing whither we should go to seek and learn them Nay that he should omit therein the principal Point of all and without which all that is either written or unwritten can signify nothing that is to tell us That the Roman Church is the only true Church the only sure and Infallible Interpreter of all that is written and the only faithful Keeper of all that is unwritten from the Mouth whereof we must receive all saving Truth This I think is a thing that must needs be very hard for any one to believe that believes the Infinite Wisdom Goodness and Veracity of God. And how it can ever be made evident that there are such necessary unwritten Traditions or that these which the Church of Rome holds are they I think no Man living can imagine I am sure if the Papists way of reasoning be good it 's safer not to believe this For all Sides consent that the Scripture which we have is the certain Word of God but all Sides are not agreed that unwritten Traditions are the Word of God therefore it is safer to believe the Scripture only to be the Word of God and not Traditions We hold us to Scripture and the Papists grant that to be the safest Rule their greatest strength lies in unwritten or as they are wont to speak Oral and Practical Traditions which in plain English is no more but Report and Custom and whether there can reasonably be thought any certainty in these equal to that of the written Word of God given by Divine Inspiration can be no hard matter for a very weak Understanding to determine That which makes these unwritten Traditions of the less Credit with me is the assurance I have that a pretence to them and a vain confidence in them hath produced much Error and Division in the Church 'T is well known how far and how long the Errors of the Millenaries and of administring the Eucharist to Infants to mention no more prevail'd on this account And the early Schisms betwixt the Roman and Asian Churches about the keeping of Easter and the hot Contests between the Roman and African Churches about rebaptizing Hereticks were occasion'd and upheld by Pretences on all hands to Tradition This was the only Refuge of old for Hereticks when they were confounded by the Scripture to take shelter under Tradition whence Tertullian call'd them Lucifugas Scripturarum Men who shunn'd the Light of the Scriptures Again saith he They confess indeed that the Apostles were ignorant of nothing and differed not among themselves in their preaching but they will not have it that they revealed all things to all for some things they deliver'd openly to all some things secretly and to a few and that because St. Paul useth this saying to Timothy O Timothy keep that which is committed to thy trust And again that good thing which is committed to thee keep Irenaeus also makes mention of Hereticks who affirm'd That out of the Scriptures the Truth could not be found out by them who understood not Tradition because it was not deliver'd by Writing but by living Voice for which cause also St. Paul said we speak Wisdom among them that are perfect St. Augustine in his 97th Tract upon Iohn saith that all the most foolish Hereticks who desire to be accounted Christians used to colour their audacious Fictions with a pretence from that Sentence of the Gospel Joh. 16. 10. I have many things to say unto you but you cannot bear them now Thus did the Hereticks of old both plead Tradition and sought to strengthen their Plea by such places of Scripture as these which are the very same that the Papists produce to the same purpose as may be seen in Bellarmine and others But I find that the Orthodox Fathers of the Church were of another Mind The
unreasonable or can produce no Reason for it self or is so lodged in Obscurity as it cannot be found I. I cannot leave the Communion of the Church of England and enter into that of Rome in obedience to an Authority which commands me to do things unreasonable agreeing neither with the Nature of Mankind nor with the undoubted Principles of Religion If therefore the Church of Rome require such things of me I must be a Protestant still and protest against that Authority which She pretends to And for ought I can yet see I cannot submit to her Authority but upon the hardest and most unreasonable Terms in the World. I must renounce my Reason and my Iudgment I must no longer trust my Senses I must either lay aside or learn to speak dishonourably of God's Word I must not believe a Word that God hath spoken without that Church's Leave I must embrace a Religion for which according to that Church's Principles no Reason can be given to convince me and when I have thus learn'd to do all things without Reason I must do what with Reason I can never do believe all Men whatsoever and how piously soever they otherwise live if they be not of the Roman Communion to be in a State of Damnation If I be deceiv'd in any thing of all this I shall be very glad to know it and I have only this to say for my self that they were Roman Catholicks who should know their own Religion best that have deceived me and if I may be deceiv'd by hearkening to them whom that Church sends abroad to make us Converts I shall be the less encouraged hereafter to embrace her Communion upon their Perswasions Whether all who are already of her Communion either own or know all this it concerns not me to enquire but I think it a Debt of Charity that I owe them to think till they tell me the contrary that they do not and that if they did they would not long continue where they are However till they who taught me these things shall either confess their own Error or shew me my Mistake I must needs think them all true and therefore also account it much safer for me to continue a Protestant than to turn Papist whatever it may seem or be to others First I think nothing can be plainer than that it is more safe to act like understanding and discreet considering Men than otherwise or that the Religion which alloweth Men so to do is safer than that which doth not allow it Now the Protestant Religion alloweth Men to make use of their Reason and Iudgment to discern between Truth and Falshood Good and Evil which the Roman Religion as it seems to me will not allow and therefore it must needs be the safer Religion Christ certainly came not into the World to save Sinners by destroying but rather by restoring and perfecting Human Nature His business was not to deprive us of the use of the most noble Faculty which God had given us but to rectify that and all the rest after they had been depraved by Sin. His Gospel was not preached to close up the Eye of the Soul the Understanding and so to lead Men blindfold to Heaven but to open Mens Eyes and to furn them from Darkness to Light Act. 26. 18. The Apostles preach'd to teach us how to offer unto God a Reasonable Service Rom. 12. 1. And Christ expects that his Sheep should be able to discern the voice of him their Shepherd from the voice of Strangers and avoiding them to follow him only Iohn 10. 4 5. St. Peter exhorts Men to be always ready to give a Reason of the Hope that is in them 1 Pet. 3. 15. And St. Paul bids Men prove all things and hold fast that which is good 1 Thess. 5. 21. And St. Iohn exhorts not to believe every Spirit but to try the Spirits whether they be of God 1 Joh. 4. 1. How any Man shall be able to do all this and much more which as a Christian he is obliged to do and not be allow'd the free use of his Reason and judging Faculty I am sure no Man can tell me neither indeed how he can be of any Religion at all for before he can really be of any Religion he must choose it and choose it he cannot till he have rationally consider'd and judg'd of it and of the Reasons which must move him to the choice of it And in Truth to deny a Man the free use of his Reason and Iudgment in Religion is to turn him into a Beast where he should be most a Man and either to make it impossible for him to be of any Religion at all and to serve God like a Man or else to say in effect That Christian Religion is altogether a most unreasonable thing and proper only to unreasonable Creatures Now the Writing Men of the Roman Church tell us nothing more frequently than that no private Man ought to be allow'd to judg for himself in matters of Faith that to allow this is to set the Gate wide open to all Heresies that every Man is bound to sumbit and captivate his Understanding and Iudgment to the Iudgment of the Church that is to all the Definitions of as they call it the Roman-Catholick Church Whatsoever this Church affirms we must believe to be true and whatsoever She commands we must chearfully obey seem the thing to our own private Reason never so false or never so wicked We must not dare to examine the Truth or Lawfulness of her Decrees or Determinations tho Reason and Scripture too seem to us to be against them as we have been lately taught by the Representer for as we receive from Her the Books so from Her only we are to receive the Sense of Scripture Hence it is that they define a Heretick to be one that obstinately opposeth the Sentence of the Church The Doctrines of Fathers Bellarmine some-where tells us may be examined by Reason because they teach but as private Doctors but the Church teaches as a Iudg with all Authority and therefore no Man may dispute the soundness of her Doctrine This then is the first step I must take if I will go over to the Church of Rome I must resolve to see no longer for my self with my own Eyes but give my self up to be led by the Church never questioning the Way I am to go in so long as she leads me And truly so far as I am yet able to discern with my Protestant Eyes it is but needful to close the Eye of Reason before-hand when I am about to go where I must otherwise see such things as no Reason can indure It was therefore very ingenuously spoken as I have heard of Mr. Cressy when he said that the Wit and Judgment of Catholicks is to renounce their own Judgment and depose their own Wit. Yet if this be true I must beg his Pardon if I dare not yet imitate his Example or
have the least Zeal for God's Honour I am verily oerswaded that the good Language they bestow upon the Scripture hath kept more out of their Church than ever their Arguments yet won I will not now take notice of those too well known Encomiums bestow'd upon it by some of their Communion calling it a Nose of Wax a Leaden Rule a dead Letter unsens'd Characters and I am ashamed to say what more I shall only observe what is ordinarily taught us and endeavour'd with much Art to be prov'd by their best most modest and generally approved Authors as That the Scripture is not Necessary that it hath no Authority as to us but from the Church that it is an imperfect an insufficient Rule that it is an obscure Book and finally a very dangerous one to be read by the People I know very well That the Representer and others of them tell us That the Papist believes it damnable in any one to think speak or to do any thing irreverently towards the Scripture and that he holds it in the highest Veneration of all Men living I know also that most of them even whilst they are industriously proving all that I but now said do yet labour to mollify and sweeten their own harsh Expressions which they know must needs grate the Ears of all pious Persons I am also verily perswaded that many Papists have a very venerable esteem for the Scripture and are not a little troubled to hear it reproachfully used And yet I cannot see that highest Veneration for it or that they speak not very irreverently of it who speak no worse of it than the Representer himself hath taught them viz. That it is not fit to be read generally of all without License tho he gives this very good reason for it Lest they should no longer acknowledg the Authority of the Roman Church or in his own words No Authority left by Christ to which they are to submit As tho Men might be taught by the Scripture to be disobedient to any Authority which Christ hath set up in his Church I cannot see any great Veneration he hath to the Scripture in saying They allow a restraint upon the reading of the Scriptures for the preventing of a blind ignorant Presumption or the casting of the Holy to Dogs or Pearls to Swine such too is his respect for Christians That he hath no other assurance that they are the Word of God but by the Authority and Canon of the Church That almost every Text of the Bible and even those that concern the most essential and fundamental Points of the Christian Religion may be interpreted several ways and made to signify things contrary to one another That it is altogether silent without discovering which of all those Senses is that intended by the Holy Ghost and leading to Truth and which are erroneous and Antichristian That a Man may frame as many Creeds as he pleases and make Christ and his Apostles speak what shall be most agreeable to his Humour and suit best with his Interest and find plain Proofs for all That it alone can be no Rule of Faith to any private or particular Person Certainly they who talk of the Scripture at this rate have not the highest Veneration for it of all Men living They that say and labour to prove that the Scripture is not necessary may well be supposed to think that the Church of God might do well enough without it And tho to lessen the Odiousness of this Assertion they are forced to confess it is a Lie without the help of some such mental Reservation as this So that God could not if he pleas'd preserve his Truth among Men some other way than by writing it yet doth not this speak in them the like Veneration for the Scripture as Protestants have who down-rightly affirm it to be necessary And it must needs sound ill to say That the All-wise God hath been very careful to leave and preserve in his Church an unnecessary thing Yea 't is altogether as absurd to say the Scripture is not necessary because God could if it had seem'd good to him have preserv'd his Church and Faith without it As it would be to say that Plowing and Sowing or Eating and Drinking are not necessary because God could if he pleas'd make the Ground bring forth without the one and preserve Man's Life without the other Nor can it be imagin'd that any Man upon this account only would venture to say and attempt to prove the Scripture not to be necessary in a sense wherein no Man ever affirm'd it if he were not so zealously bent upon lessening the Esteem which we have for it that he will chuse rather to say nothing to the purpose and dispute against no Body than to be silent and say nothing that sounds ill of it and that he thinks it needful for the ends of his Church so to do In like manner when they contend that the Authority of the Scripture is from the Church which is the thing whereof at every turn they are forward enough to mind us they are forced again to make some Abatements to make it seem a Truth 'T is true they say that consider'd in it self alone it hath its Authority from God whereby they can mean no more but that God is the Author of it but in relation to us it hath its Authority from the Church Now I would fain know what any Man can understand properly by the Authority of the Scripture but its relation to us or the Power it hath to command our Faith in it and Obedience to it as the Word of God. And if it have all this Power from the Church as is confidently affirm'd then tho it self be of God yet all its Authority is from the Church and it must needs be true which was said by one of them That it is of no more Authority than Livy or Aesop ' s Fables without the Churches Declaration Thus is the Authority of God's Word made to depend upon the Authority of Men and all our Faith is no more but humane Faith resting upon humane Testimony And if the Authority which it hath to oblige us be from the Church I would know by what Authority it doth oblige the Church it is not sure by any Authority from Her for then I see no reason why the Church may not chuse whether she will receive it or no whilst yet I think that it is only by the Authority of the Scripture that she can pretend to be a Church and to have any Authority at all However this I am sure of that they who say the Scripture is to be receiv'd for the Churches Sake have not so high a Veneration either for it or the Author of it as they who say it is to be receiv'd for God's Sake And in the next place whether we who say the Scripture is a perfect and sufficient Rule of Faith and Manners containing all things necessary to Salvation or they
than the Scripture till he Interprets for us is hard to say So that all returns to this still That we have her honest Word for her Authority and this is the sole Foundation that I can discover of this prodigious Faith which we must all have or else perish eternally III. And now in the last place seeing it is come to this for ought I see that I must rest upon her own Word or nothing for the Truth of her Sovereign Authority and must upon peril of my own Damnation take upon me this invidious Profession to believe all men damn'd but PAPISTS that I may enjoy the Blessing of my Mother I should be glad to know that She her-self as Infallible as she is could but probably assure me where this Word of her's may certainly be found The REPRESENTER indeed in his confident way hath told me That all the Members of his Religion however spread through the World agree like one man in every Article of their Faith. And if we would know for our learning by what happy means this wonderful Agreement is effected he tells us It is by an equal Submission to the Determinations of their Church that is as I understand it by taking her bare Word for every thing No one of them saith he tho the most learned and wise ever following any other Rule in their Faith besides this of unanimously believing as the Church of God or ROMAN Church believes And if this be so I wonder to what purpose their Learning and Wisdom can serve them any more than their Iudgment and Wit which they have renounced and deposed However if this be true Representing I shall not I hope find it difficult to find out the Church's Word and Authority on which my Faith must stand Every Member of it tho he have no more than the old Collier's Faith can help me to it in any part of the World for all agree like one Man in every Article and therefore sure in this most fundamental one But what now shall I think after this if it should so fall out that hardly one in a hundred of these Members know either where this Church of theirs is to be found or what those Determinations of hers are unto which they so unanimously submit Nay what if their Church it self cannot tell them this When She hath said all She can to inform both them and us suppose it be still two to one that we shall be mistaken in it whatever we take to be the ROMAN Church or her infallible Word This is it that I am now for a Close to inquire into It must needs seem more than a little absurd and exceeding hard to tye a man under pain of Damnation to believe he knows not what and what no body can certainly shew him I mean a Power in the Church of ROME which all men deny but they of her Communion and about which even they who are of her Communion are so divided among themselves that I do not see how ever they can agree about it Is there no Dispute in that Church about this Power Have they not been even at Daggers drawing among themselves about it Is the Controversie yet decided Or can any one promise me that it ever shall There is a great Diversity among the Schoolmen saith our REPRESENTER in their Divinity-Points and Opinions of such matters as are no Articles of Faith and have no relation to it but as some Circumstance or Manner which being never defined by the Church may be maintain'd severally either this way or that way without any breach of Faith or injury to their Religion I will not stay here to ask him what greater diversity he can find amongst the Members of our Church than he here grants to be amongst PAPISTS nor why our Divisions being no greater than theirs nor more nearly related to any Article of Faith should be less consistent with the Unity of the Church as is commonly objected against us than theirs are But I ask whether the Supreme Authority of the ROMAN Church be an Article of the ROMAN Faith or no And again whether all the Members of that Church be as one man unanimously agreed about it or no He will say it may be about the Article they are as to the Substance of it tho not as to all Circumstances But now if it appear that these Circumstances of the Power about which they differ are such as the thing it self will be as good as nothing without them or if they be not as certainly known and believ'd as the Power it self I think it will follow that all their agreement about the Thing is as good as nothing too till these Circumstances be also agreed upon Thus it is then I must for my Salvation believe that there is such a thing as a Supreme Power over all Churches in the Church of ROME and in this all PAPISTS as one man unanimously agree but about the Circumstances of this Power there is a great diversity of Opinions among them yet is this no injury to their Religion Tho without a better agreement about these Circumstances no man in my opinion can be able to satisfie me what their Religion is for these Circumstances about which they differ are no more but such inconsiderable things as these Whence this Power is whether it be of God or of Men of Divine or Human Right only whether it extends over all the World or over all Christians only to Spiritual concerns only or to Temporals also where it resides and is lodg'd in the Church-Diffusive or all Christians especially the Pastors or in the Church-Representative or General Councils or in the Church Virtual or the POPE of ROME These petty Circumstances they differ about and the Church it self knows not how to agree them but what 's all this to the Article it self most firmly believ'd by all that is a Supreme Power in the Church All their Religion rests on the Determinations of their Church all the force of these Determinations to oblige the Faith of men depend on this Supreme Power May not a man however well enough be assured of his Religion tho no man can tell him Whence this Power is Over what it is or Where it is Indeed what other men can do I know not but for my own part I must needs think it a very hard matter to believe this Power and to have any certainty of the Religion founded on this Power without some better Information about these Circumstances of it and therefore before I can yield to be of that Religion I must beseech that Church which will not allow us to be saved without an absolute Submission and Resignation of our selves to her Authority to tell us if not Whence which is yet the most material Circumstance of all the rest yet at least What and Where it is There is challeng'd by this Church a Power of over-ruling our Faith by her Infallible Iudgment and a Power of commanding our Obedience by
her Soveraignty It will therefore concern me to ask How I may be rightly inform'd in both these great branches of her Power unto which my subjection is required upon pain of Damnation 1. She claims a Power of Interpreting or giving the certain Sense of Scripture of Iudging and finally Deciding all Controversies of Religion of peremptorily Defining and Determining in all matters of Faith and Religious Practice so that all are bound without any further dispute or search to submit to all her Determinations and Decrees INFALLIBLE then we must believe this Church to be and that she cannot Err in her Definitions of Faith and Manners And yet where this INFALLIBILITY is to be found is a Question she is not to this day able to resolve In short I find that this Infallible Church which tells us that she cannot Err when she is desired to make this apparent to the World can tell us certainly both How and in What she can Err and in this I doubt not but she is Infallible enough but who they are in all her Communion or in what things it is that they cannot err this she could never tell us certainly and yet it is this alone that can make her Infallibility if she have it to be of any use to us The REPRESENTER saith That the PAPIST believes that the Pastors and Prelates of his Church are Fallible that there is none of them and yet the POPE is one of them and COUNCILS are made up of them but may fall into Errors Heresy and Schism and consequently are subject to mistakes And further he tells us That tho some allow the POPE the assistance of a Divine Infallibility without being in a General Council yet he is satisfied 't is only their Opinion and not their Faith there being no obligation from the Church of assenting to any such Doctrine And tho he maintain the Necessity and Right of General Councils lawfully Assembled yet is it not so plain whether he count them infallible or no by what he says in that Chapter of Councils This we are told That if any thing contrary to what Christ taught and his Apostles should be defined and commanded to be believed even by ten thousand Councils he believes it damnable in any one to receive it But in the following Chapter he speaks out and says That by the Assistance of the Holy Ghost they are specially protected from all Error in all Definitions and Declarations in matters of Faith And this is true tho he grants it possible that the Pastors and Prelates there assembled may be proud ignorant covetous enormous sinners and infamous for other vices and at other times may prevaricate make Innovations in Faith and teach erroneous Doctrines Now a man would think That if all the Guides and Pastors of the Flock not one excepted may err then the Sheep which are bound to follow their Shepherds may err also and if the Fallible lead the Fallible 't is not impossible for both to err and who it is that is infallible is hard to see And again seeing he tells us That Christ committed the care of his Flock to St. Peter and that the POPE or Bishop of Rome is in this charge St. Peter ' s Successor and that God assists those who have this charge with a particular helping Grace such as has a special respect to the Office and Function and that such as was given to the Prophets and to Moses when he was made a God to Pharoah I cannot see but it must be as consequent to all this that the POPE should be Infallible as that a General Council is so especially when it is his Approbation that gives force to its Decrees Moreover it is not easy to believe that God hath made a promise of Infallible Assistance to any number of Pastors and Prelates who are no better qualified than he supposes they may most of them be with Pride Ignorance and Vice Turbulence and Covetousness and assembled it may be under an Heretical Pope for such 't is granted he may be and as vicious too and ignorant as any of them However there are two things which make it very hard to find out this Infalliblility where he sends us to seek it in a General Council For first they must be lawfully assembled and next they must determine nothing contrary to what Christ and his Apostles taught otherwise 't is damnable to receive their Determinations Now it will be hard for me to find out how lawfully they were assembled and therefore as hard to believe all their Decrees as Infallible and I fear I must not be allow'd to examine their Definitions whether they be according to the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles or no lest I thereby seem to follow my own private Iudgment or Spirit rather than the Infallible Iudgment of the Church Representative This is all then that I can learn from his Discourse I must take it for a Truth that this Infallibility is lodg'd in a General Council and that it can determine nothing contrary to the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and then I need not inquire whether it have done so or no tho if it have done so 't is damnable for me to receive its Determinations But I will hear what others tell me Bellarmin saith That all Catholicks are thus far agreed That the POPE as he is POPE in the midst of his Councellors or together with a General COUNCIL may Err or Iudg amiss in matters of Fact. And if this be true he may even so err in the whole Faith as far as I can yet see for he may thus err in determining that there were such Men as Christ and his Apostles that any of them Preached planted Churches writ Books that these are their Books or that St. Peter was at ROME and was Bishop there left the Bishops of that See his Successors in all his Power that there hath been an uninterrupted Succession of Bishops in that Church that any unwritten Traditions concerning Faith and Manners were left to the Custody of the Church and many more such things which were matters of Fact and on which the Faith of that Church depends Again he saith That the POPE as a private Doctor may Err even through Ignorance in matters both of Faith and Manners And thus the Church whether Virtual or Representative may err But I would fain hear wherein she cannot Err and whether all Catholicks are agreed as well in that The famous Chancellor of Paris Gerson Almain Alphonsus a Castro the Parisian Doctors yea and no less man than P. ADRIAN the VI th saith the same Author have taught That the POPE as he is POPE may be a Heretick and teach Heresy when he desineth any thing without a General COUNCIL And truly If as a Man he may be a Heretick I see no reason why he may not be so as a POPE for I take the Man and the POPE to be here both one But further these last named will