I distinguish the maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholik Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetual and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot be shewed in all ages is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and as Mr. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to be I denie it To the minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same maner D. Featly What answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Mr. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the eternitie of faith by professors to be named and not to be named What are professors nominable or innominable to the eternitie of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny That the Protestant Church is so eternall as the names of all visible Protestants in all ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the catholicke and primitiue faith once giueÌ„ to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall as the names may be shewed in all ages But the faith of the Protestant Chruch is the primitiue and catholik faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Ergo the faith of the Protestant church is so perpetuall as the names may be shewed in all ages M. Fisher. I answer to the minor If this proposition be taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition be considered as it must be as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole dispute was intended to wit to shew to those who are not able by their owne abilitie to find out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the visibilitie of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their own abilities to find out faith is any man able by his owne abilitie without the help of diuine grace 2. What helpeth the visibilitie to confirme the truth of the Church Visibilitie indeed proues a Church but not the true Church Here M. Fisher alledged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former answer whereunto D. Featly promised answer should be made when it came to their turne to answer now he was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The summe of your former answer was that the minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Ergo your answer is false and impertinent And first it is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the antecedent That it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be proued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chiefe end of our dispute which was as I said before That infallible truth may be learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the minor is pertinent That minor proposition which together with the maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that minor denied But the minor proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the minor last denied Ergo the minor of that Syllogisme is pertinent Note that M. Fishers answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other aduising priuatly and amending what they thought fit which breeding much delay irksome to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher. A stander by said Let him alone for he and his learned councell are not yet agreed M. Fisher. I distinguish the maior That minor proposition which together with the maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the minor in such manner as it may serue for that purpose to which the whole dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it do inferre the conclusion yet not in such maner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole dispute was ordained I denie the maior Here the disputants iarred and so the writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That minor which together with the maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing been per directa media is pertinent to that purpose to which the dispute is ordained But this minor together with the maior directly and necessarily inferres the Proposition last denied the whole processus hauing been made per directa media Ergo it is pertinent to that purpose to which the dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a Bâ—ll Mr. Fisher. Media directa yet not ad directum finem that is direct and not direct for media are said to be directa only ratione finis M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus when a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio à genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs be perpetual Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the visibilitie of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus A stander by M. Sweet you once learned better Logicke in Cambridge then you shew now Here againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names D. White said Where are your names D. White This is nothing but an apparent tergiuersation You will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our arguments and therefore I require you Mr. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each partie to haue an houre and a halfe that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Proue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeares these present tenets of the Roman Church viz. 1. That all power of order and iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the
to wit Whether the Protestant Church c. and Whether the names c. Ergo. M. Fisher. Conclude any thing syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly You your selfe make the first part a question by it selfe for at the margent ouer against the first part Whether the Protestant Church was euer visible you write I will answer it was not Which words can haue no Grammaticall construction if you refer them to both parts or at all to the latter part to wit Whether the names can be shewed M. Fisher. Let vs heare a Syllogisme D. Featly In this copulatiue proposition which you offer for a question and require me to proue either you denie both parts or one onely if both I am to proue both one after the other if one only then you grant the other A copulatiue is not true vnlesse both parts be true doe you denie both or one onely M. Fisher. I say they are but one for the latter part is to expound the former for I meane by visible so visible that the names of such visible Protestants may be shewed D. Featly This is to confound two distinct questions in one For a Church may haue been visible and yet the names of such visible professors not now to be shewed M. Fisher. They are my words and I am best able to expound my owne meaning D. Featly An exposition which the construction of the words will not beare is not to be receiued But the construction of the words will not beare this your exposition Therefore it is not to be receiued And is a coniunction copulatiue and must adde somewhat to that which goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men M. Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this if there were visible men certainly they may be named Name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all ages D. Featly It seemes you are nominals rather then reals you stand so much vpon naming will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages If neither you nor we can name visible professors of our Religions in all ages for ought I know the best way for vs is to be all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all ages certainly they may be named D. Featly That is a non sequitur for the reasons before named by me What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no names at all M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and may be knowne by some periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the heretickes called Acephali who are so called because their head and author cannot be named nor particularly described yet the Author was a visible man Are all visible mens names vpon record Are all the records that were in former times now to be produced Here diuers of Mr. Fishers companie called Names names names D. Featly What will nothing content you but a Buttery booke you shall haue a Buttery booke of names if you will stay a while Here diuers of the auditors wished Dr. Featly not to proceed any further in the disputation vnlesse Mr. Fisher would suffer him according to the lawes of all disputation first to conclude the first part of his copulatiue question and then the second yet D. Featly desirous to bring the disputation to some better issue before he left it was content to yeeld to M. Fishers vnreasonable demand and conclude both parts of the copulatiue question in one Syllogisme D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall is so visible that the names of some professors thereof may be shewed in all ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. M. Fisher. Faith eternall who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith ceaseth D. Featly You haue a purpose M. Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue vntill his second coming The Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue shall be so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. M. Fisher. Your argument is a fallacie called petitio principii D. Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not petitio principij But such is my argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder argument to proue the visibilitie of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Hereticks Mahumetans and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we know by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwayes professors more or lesse visible M. Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori D. Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an argument à priori better then an argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapons I list take you what buckler you can M. Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Here Mr. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause more excellent then of the cause by the effect From this place and so forward it was agreed by the disputants that the Arguments and Answers should be taken by one common writer and that the Opponet D. Featly should set his hand to each seuerall Syllogisme and the Respondent M. Fisher to his seuerall Answers D. Featly That Church which is so visible as the Catholicke Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be is so visible that their names may be produced and shewed But the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholik Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be Ergo. M. Fisher. I denie the minor D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholicke Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher.
Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Romane Church 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authoritie of the Pope and that he might ratifie and disanull whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Proue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes cuasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you D. White or D. Featly haue proued your Church to be visible in all ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to proue the visibilitie of the Catholike Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had been done but for your delayes and tergiuersations answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which we differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the catholike and primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued is so visible that the names of the professors in all ages may be shewed proued out of good authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the catholicke and primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Ergo. The maior is ex concessis What say you to the minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the minor D. Featly Vpon what terme do you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any terme D. Featly Here is againe another straine of new Logicke to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no terme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to denie that the Protestant faith is the Catholike primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that Mr. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to denie that the Protestant faith is the Catholike primitiue faith we simply and flatly and in downright termes denie that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholike primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I haue proued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Sweet This is to diuert the question the question is not now whether our faith or yours be the catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good authors D. Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect be needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logicke disputes bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you Mr. Fisher would report that I was nonplussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto Mr. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such misreports to the wrong of either it was moued by the hearers that is should be written downe by the common writer of the conference that both the Disputants being willing to proceed D. Featly was defired by the companie because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all ages This being written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his induction D. Featly An Induction is a forme of argument in which we proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this sic de caeteris Ergo it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may be produced in the first hundred yeares and second and third and fourth sic de caeteris Ergo it was so in all ages First I name those of the first age and I begin with him who is the beginner of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose Name all knees must bow both in heauen and earth and vnder the earth at which words all the companie expressed an holy reuerence after Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few writers in the first age at least whose vndoubted works haue come to our hands I name onely I gnatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul M. Fisher. These are enough for the first age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius Here at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough that Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in qualitie then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once wil you haue me name men of so many ages with one breath will you haue me eate my whole dinner at a bit can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them St. Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Cyprian and I begin first with Christ his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not begin with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where should I begin but in the first age and with the first of it shall I make a catalogue of the Christian Church according to the seueral ages and leaue out Christ and his Apostles in the first age Answer first to them and I will proceed to others M. Fisher. Name the rest in all ages and then I will answer you D. Featly First answer to the first age and then I will proceed to the second If you grant me the first age then I will proceed presently to the second otherwise I must stay in the first M. Fisher. Vnlesse you giue me a catalogue of names throughout all ages I will not answer D. Featly Will you not answer Christ and his Apostles in the first place M. Fisher. I will not before you haue named the rest D. Featly Will you not be tried by Christ and his Apostles That which Christ and his Apostles taught in the first age was taught by succeeding Christians in all ages this is confest on both sides But the doctrine of the Protestants was taught by Christ and his Apostles in the first age Ergo. Answer this Syllogisme if you will not answer my former Induction M. Fisher. I will not answer you any thing till you haue made your catalogue D. Featly Mr. Fisher I charge you as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement answer now vpon your conscience before all this companie whether you beleeue that Christ and his Apostles taught our faith or yours this is the maine point of all answer directly to my Induction Notwithstanding this deep charge M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles whereupon diuers thereupon expressing their distast at such refusall desired D. Featly to surceasse telling him that he ought not to talke any longer with such a one who refused to answer Christ and his Apostles And so the Conference brake vp This Conference though it tooke not that progresse which was desired by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation not permitting Dr. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any argument yet it hath not bin fruitlesse for since that time the aforesaid Mr. Buggs came to Sir Humfrey Lynde and gaue him many thanks for the said meeting and assured him that he was well resolued now of his Religion that he saw plainly it was but the Iesuits bragging without proofes and whereas formerly by their Sophistical perswasions he was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth vtterly disclaim the Popish priests companie and their doctrine also Vpon Monday following M. Fisher and M. Sweet came vnsent for to the house of Sir Humfrey Lynde to know of him whether the parties that had formerly conferred would proceed or no who answered that if they might confer priuatly with leaue in some other place they would easily make good their cause and so they parted without further resolution of place or meeting Since which time notice being giuen by my Lord Bishop of Durham of his Maiesties pleasure that the truth of the late Conference should be certified to his Maiestie and further meetings staid a Romanist hath confidently auerred to Mr. Buggs that our side hath laboured to haue all future meetings touching this occasion forbidden because we durst not nor are not able to make good our assertions against them And this is the true relation of the Conference it selfe together with the occasion thereof and the effect which it produced FINIS D. Featly D. Featly A Romanist standing by The same Romanist standing by A Protestant sitting by Minor probatur All this was spoken but not committed to the writer Tollitur distinctio These words were also spoken but not set down by the writer