both may be part of the Catholick Church Protestants as wâ— have seen in the former Chapter say that aâ—â— Christian Congregations are parts of the Catholick Church as well as we Roman Catholicks Thiâ— assertion they ground upon the signification of the worâ— Catholick which is as much to say as Vniversal In the saâ— me sense they explicate Catholick Tradition to be onelâ— that which is contradicted by any Christian Church According to this opinion no Congregation of Christian can be Hereticks because Hereticks must be obstinate against the Doctrine of the Universall or Catholick Church but no Christians can be obstinate against thâ— Doctrine of the Catholick or Universall Church seeinâ— themselves are part of it and they can not be obstinate against themselves or their owne Tenets and Doctrine therefore none can be Hereticks This absurd and hereticall sequele is a sufficient refutation of the Protestant principle and their explication of the word Catholick 2 But let us prove directly that neither all Christians nor any two Churches dissenting in their testimonies concerning whatsoever matters of Faith can be the Catholick Church My proofe is this The testimony of the Catholick Church concerning what is pretended to be revealed or not revealed by God must oblige all persons who are informed of it to believe what it saith and proposeth But if all Christians or any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies suppose Roman Catholicks and Protestants be parts of the Catholick Church the testimony thereof can not oblige any sober person to believe what both say and propose First because one Church contradicts the other and its impossible to believe contradictions at one and the same instant Secondly when witnesses do not agree in their testimonies if they be of equall authority no man is obliged to believe either side but rather is bound in prudence to suspend his judgement Therefore if the Catholick Church be composed of all Congregations and Churches of Christians or of any two Churches not agreeing in their testimonies concerning matters of Faith no man is obliged to believe the testimony of the Catholick Church but rather to suspend his judgement and credit nothing which sequele is absurd and contrary to the Doctrine not onely of Catholicks but also of Protestants Therefore the Catholick Church must not be all Congregations of Christians or any two dissenting but one onely Congregation of persons who agree in one Faith CHAP. VII VVhether the testimony of the Catholick Church be infallible not onely as Protestants terme them in fundamentall but also in not fundamentall articles of Faith 1 THough we Catholicks say that all articles of Faith if once sufficiently proposed are in one sense fundamentall because under paine of damnation they must be believed yet in ananother sense we admit a distinction betweene fundamentall and not fundamentall articles of Faith Fundamentall articles may be called such as no ignorance of them can excuse men from damnation for not being believed Not fundamentalls may be called such articles as if proposed must be believed but if not proposed sufficiently the ignorance of them is excusable 2 But whether these articles be both called fundamentall or onely the first sort of them our controversie with Protestants is the same and the question is not set here out of its proper place because the resolution of it is necessary to answer an objection which Protestants make against the Doctrine of the former Chapter All Christians say they do agree in fundamentall points of Faith as in the Trinity Incarnation c. what great matter is it if they agree not in other things of little importance without the knowledge and sufficient proposall whereof they may be saved as Purgatory Transubstantiation c Why should we be obliged to believe things that are not absolutely necessary for salvation especially seeing Roman Catholick Divines do not deny that ignorance of not fundamentalls is not damnable Therefore all Christians though dissenting in not fundamentalls may be called Catholicks and the universall Church because they agree in all necessary articles of Catholick Religion and though their testimonies do not agree in Purgatory v.g. being an article of Faith why should their disagreement in that petty point invalid their testimony concerning the mystery of the Trinity Incarnation and other fundamentall articles 3 This discourse and objection of Protestants hath damned many a soule because they did not examine the truth of it as they ought But to declare the fallacy of it something must be said of the Churches infallibility Most Protestants do grant that the testimony of the Church is infallible in proposing the fundamentall articles of Christian Religion as in delivering Scripture to be Gods Word and in declaring the mystery of the Trinity c. because Christian and Catholick Faith must admit of no doubts concerning the truth of fundamentalls and if the Church be not infallible in proposing those to us we must necessarily doubt of their truth for though we doubt not that whatsoever God said is true yet we can not but doubt whether he revealed or meant any such thing as the mystery of the Trinity or Incarnation if we do not believe that the Church is infallible in proposing the said mystery God therefore in his Providence can not permit the Church to erre or deceive us in fundamentalls seeing its necessary for our salvation not to doubt of the truth of fundamentall mysteries but if the Church may erre in proposing them we can not but doubt of their truth This reason say Protestants can not be applyed to not fundamentalls because they are not absolutely necessary for salvation and our salvation is the onely motive that God had to make the Church infallible in proposing articles of Religion Therefore none is bound to believe that the Church is infallible in not fundamentalls 4 If the onely motive that God had to make the Catholick Church infallible were our salvation this discourse of Protestants might have some colour of truth but Gods motive in all his actions is not onely our salvation but in first place his owne honour and glory There is nothing concerns Gods honour more then that whatsoever is sufficiently proposed as revealed by him be credited by us without the least doubt whether the matter be great or of little importance Therefore the Churches infallibility and our obligation of believing it ought not to be measured by the greatnesse importance or absolute necessity of the matter proposed in order onely to our salvation but also by the sufficiency of the proposall in order to Gods honour and veracity If a matter not absolutely necessary for salvation be as sufficiently proposed to be revealed by God as the mystery of the Trinity the obligation is as great of believing the one without any doubt as the other The reason is cleare because there is as great an injury done to God by denying or doubting of his veracity and revelation in a small matter as in a great In believing
A TREATISE OF THE NATVRE OF CATHOLICK FAITH AND HERESIE WITH Reflexion upon the Nullitie of the English Protestant Church and Clergy By N. N. Printed at ROÃœEN in the yeare 1657. Permissu Superiorum THE PREFACE TO THE READER IF Heresie could have been brought to a stand in its owne opinions it would long since have been sunke in the opinion of all but finding it selfe upon quick sand it is forced to change footing and not to stay long upon the same ground for fear of sinking under ground and falling from its present state of improbabilitie to its ancient state of invisibilitie And albeit by this often shifting it appeares to be brought to desperate shifts yet is it content rather to appeare any thing then utterly disappeare into its owne nothing A Cheate must often change his disguise a Mountebank his market a Sophister his Medium and an Army of defeated disordered Troopes can not long with securitie keepe the same place and posture It is not so hard to rout them as to find them out so unarmed unfortified so disbanded and scattered they are for want of a Commander in chiefe that they are no sooner in sight then put to flight and forced to retreate to some new passage of lesse perill First Scripture alone was thought a sufficient defence but finding it failed them they found it necessary to change and even cut off some parts of this fortification which were of advantage to their enemies After an outwork of Tradition was judged expedient for more securitie although in effect nothing proves of more danger unto them Bishops and Priests formerly cast out as of more expences then profit were soone called back and desired to appeare armed with true Orders received not by extraordinary vocation but by legall succession Faith alone was thought armour of proofe before they had found by experience the need of good workes The Church which in the beginning they gave out for lost and utterly perished for many ages they came at length to seeke out with more solicitude then successe being resolved not to find it in that place in which alone it is to be found and now they seeme willing to open the doores of the Church to all Christians that they in the croud may get in with the rest The pretended clearnesse of Scripture in it selfe or at least as subsigned with the testimony of the private spirit made the definitions of Councells seeme of no use now upon better consideration foreseeing the prejudice they doe to their cause by appealing from the verdict of all Councells in generall they thinke expedient to admit of some in particular but namely such as treated of matters not apertaining to our present controversies by which evasion they engage themselves in greater difficulties then those they pretended to avoyde for no just exception was or can be alleadged against the Councell of Lateran deciding the question of Transubstantiation which may not be urged against those Councells which obliged all Christians to believe the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation They have been so beaten from place to place and so battered and broken in every place they undertooke to maintaine that divers of the best understanding and least passion would be glad to capitulate and come to an accommodation with us as farre as it may stand with their honour and interest They are content to wave that maine article of the Popes Antichristian tyranny and yeeld him a preeminencie in stead of a supremacie The respect we give Images most will free from the sinne and many from the danger of Idolatrie so it may be left as a matter of superfluitie in which rank they will place our prayers to Saints without imputing hereafter unto us any injury done to Christs mercies or merits Upon the score of Tradition they will graunt us prayer for the dead provided we leave it to their private intention whether it be to diminish their paines or increase their glory As to the reall presence so much excepted against by their Predecessors they refuse not to accept of upon condition they may shape Christs power and words to the narrow model of their own senses and be exempted from the labour of searching so farre into Metaphysick a science not sutable to the grosser heresies of this age as to finde a distinction betwixt the appearance and substance of bread Notwithstanding their want of speculation in the Theoriques they might in this mystery as well as in that of the Trinitie have learned this practicall morall Lesson that Reason is never more reasonable then when it leaves reasoning in things above reason Auricular Confession heretofore traduced for a torture of Consciences and Tyranny of the Clergy many confesse to be of good use but few of necessity and none can be brought to descend to particulars for want of humility in themselves and for want of secrecy in their Ministers Reason of state will make them subscribe to the article of Bishops that the Prince may have so many Peeres of his owne creation and at his owne devotion and a chaine of consequence drawes after them Priests and Deacons for to say the truth their winking so long at the cleare signes of their Bishops invalid Ordination is a shrewd signe of their looking more upon their Votes in Parliament then their functions in the Church They are willing to fall thus farre and yet further from their ancient Tenets with hopes to be admitted as part of our Church and cleared of the reproachfull name of Hereticks as not dissenting in the fundamentall points of Catholick Faith But whilest they talke of fundamentalls they never passe the meere superficialls and they are farre from digging so deepe as to come to the maine foundation of Faith It is in vaine to decide fundamentall matters before we resolve upon the fundamentall motive of Christian beliefe No man calls in question the truth of Gods Word but the question is about the sufficient proposall of it That is a fundamentall article of Faith and undeniable under paine of damnation which is sufficiently proposed as revealed by God we relying upon the infallible and unchangeable Truth of the Churches proposall remayne setled in the same Tenets notwithstanding the opposition of Luther Calvin and other Sectaries whilest they on the contrary accepting Gods Word upon the proposall of private inspiration or human persuasion neither agree with us nor with one another nor even with themselves in different times As to our new English Religion it is very remarkable how the pretended supernaturall inspiration and naturall persuasion hath beene alwayes flexible to temporall respects First they were inspired and persuaded to pull downe Monkes and cry downe the Pope and proceed no further this being sufficient to comply with King Henry the Eighths lewdnesse and coveteousnesse After they went on as farre as they were led by the interest of the Protector Seamour But when Queen Elizabeths illegitimacy made the Popes authority be judged wholy inconsistent with
the truth to give way to the Parliament to pull downe Parliament Bishops who were so farre from being de Iure Divino that they were not so much as de Iure Ecclesiastico 30 And thus much I thought fit to produce at the present in confutation of what either hath or may be said in behalfe of the English Protestant Clergy and report me to the judgement of the impartiall Reader how much he ought to rely upon their ministery that by so many titles is proved to be null But though any person should not be convinced of the nullitie of their Ordination he can not but harbour a prudent doubt thereof there being so evident reasons and motives for it as have beene set downe in this Chapter Now to receive the Sacraments from Priests of so doubtfull authority is without all doubt a damnable sacrilege it being a thing in the highest degree against the light of reason and the rules of Faith to expose to so manifest hazard the reverence of the Sacraments and the remedy of our soules It is time now to passe from the historicall relation of the introduction of a new found Heresie and the intrusion of a new fashioned Clergy to a more strict and Scholasticall examination of the nature of Heresie and Catholick Faith CHAP. III. Of Heresie 1 BEfore Protestancy be compared with Heresie its necessary to declare what Heresie is Catholick Divines commonly define it to be an obstinate errour against any Doctrine of the Catholick Church But because Protestants do not agree with us in determining what the Catholick Church is that we may not be engaged in a new dispute before we explaine what we have in hand I thought fit to define Heresie in such a sort that the definition may seeme indifferent to all Christians and suppose or beg nothing to favour Catholicks or condemne Protestants because if adversaries agree not in some principles they can not come to an issue to end the Controversies 2 The definition is this Heresie is an obstinate errour against the VVord of God or the true sense thereof sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation How shall it be knowne when any verity is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation The bare word or testimony of men doth not seeme to be a sufficient proposall of Gods revealed truths because every Sect give their word and testimony in favour of their owne Religion assuring us that God revealed the doctrine and interpretation of Scripture which they follow And yet the contrary is evident seeing God can not reveale the contradictions nonsence and contrary Tenets which are taught in so contrary Religions Therefore the testimony of men if not confirmed by some supernaturall signe or miracle can not be a sufficient proposall of Divine Revelation 3 But if any Doctrine be testified by lawfull witnesses to be Divine Revelation and their testimony be confirmed by miracles all men are bound to believe that the said Doctrine was revealed by God This is the reason why the perfidious Jewes did sinne grievously in not believing the Doctrine of Christ being confirmed with so many evident miracles It is not necessary every person see a miracle that the true Faith and Doctrine of the Catholick Church be sufficiently proposed to him as Divine Revelation it s enough that he can not prudently deny or doubt that miracles have beene wrought in confirmation of the Doctrine proposed Christs Doctrine was sufficiently proposed as Divine to many Jewes who were not present at his miracles it s enough they were credibly reported Saint Augustine proved that miracles were wrought in confirmation of Christian Religion by this ingenious Dilemma Either the world believing such strange and improbable things to human sense as our Faith teacheth and so contrary to our naturall inclinations did see them confirmed by miracles or no. If they did see miracles we have our intent If they did believe without seeing any miracle we have our intent also because that very beliefe is the greatest of all miracles for how is it possible that sober and wise men should be so mad as to believe and embrace a new and strange Doctrine so repugnant to their senses and contrary to their liberty and naturall inclinations if they had not beene wrought upon by some supernaturall power and signes In one word therefore we may conclude that onely Faith or Doctrine is sufficiently proposed as Divine Revelation which is not onely proposed as such by the testimony of a Church but of such a Church whose testimony hath beene confirmed by unquestionable miracles either seen by the believer or at least so credibly reported to him by the testimony of honest and learned men that it were want of prudence in any person whosoever to deny the truth and sufficiency of such a testimony and proposall CHAP. IV. In what doth the obstinacy of Heresie consist 1 THere was never any Heretick so madly obstinate as to give God the lye to his face and in plaine termes all Sectaries acknowledge him to be Truth it selfe and therefore not capable of deceiving or of being deceived The obstinacy of Hereticks is against Gods verities not as they are uttered immediatly by himselfe but as they are proposed by his Church If God himselfe were pleased to speake immediatly to men in such a manner that it were evident and cleare to them the words and sense which the Church proposeth were dictated by himselfe we should be little troubled with Heresies none would be obstinate All the obstinacy of Hereticks proceeds from the difficulty they finde in believing that God doth speak or declare his sense by the Church this once granted our understanding hath no difficulty to ubmit by an implicite Faith to whatsoever the Church proposeth as Gods Revelation or Word 2 Against cleare evidence there can be no obstinacy the object of it must be involved in some obscurity otherwise the will which is the source of obstinacy could not master the unstanding He who denyes what is cleare and evident is more mad then obstinate There is nothing more generally acknowledged or more cleate and evident to the understanding of all Christians then this proposition If God said or meant any thing it s very true The obstinacy therefore of Hereticks doth not contest with this cleare and confessed truth it onely doubteth or denyeth that God said or meant any such thing as the Church pretends but no Heretick ever denyed or doubted but that if God meant or said what the Church pretends it must be true 3 The difference therefore betweene an Heretick and a Catholick is not that the Heretick denyes or doubts all that to be true which he thinks God revealed or meant but the difference consists in this that the Heretick doth obstinatly deny or doubt that God said or meant what â—he Church proposeth as Divine Revelation and the Catholick doth firmely believe he did say and meane whatsoever the Church proposeth as revealed The Heretick believes what the Church proposeth onely conditioâ—ally If
though the Church can not its testimony ought to be believed Many Clownes who unanimously say they have seene an Eclyps or extravagant inundation of the Sea deserve credit though they be no Philosophers or Mathematicians and consequently can not give any cleare reason of an Eclyps c. Therefore the testimony of Catholicks ought not to be rejected concerning Transubstantiation or any other mystery though they can not give cleare reason for it it s enough for them to recurre to Gods omnipotency 7 But how say Protestants can we be called Hereticks or obstinate if we are content to submit our judgements and believe what is sufficiently proposed as Gods Revelation We onely deny that the Roman Church doth propose sufficiently as Gods Revelations their Decrees in the Councells of Trent and Lateran c. To this I have answered in the third Chap. and now againe do affirme that there is no Prince who doth propose his commands and sense concerning any matter more sufficiently by his subordinate Ministers then God doth his Word and sense of Scripture by the Roman Church Because there hath not beene onely a continuall succession of this Doctrine we professe from the primitive Church to this present which neither the Greeke Church See Chap. 9. nor any other can pretend to having changed the Doctrine of Faith more then once but because there do appeare such evident signes of the Roman Churches being appointed by God to declare to all the world the true Faith and sense of Scripture that it must be obstinacy in the highest degree to doubt of the sufficiency of the Roman Churches proposall and testimony First the conversion of Nations by Roman Catholicks in all parts of the world is evident Secondly no other Church doth pretend to miracles but we alone Thirdly we heare of no eminent sanctity confirmed by prophecy and other supernaturall signes in any Church but in ours Fourthly there is no unity peace or end of controversies but amongst us all submitting our judgements in matters of Faith to any generall Councell approved by the Pope Fifthly no Church hath continuall tradition and succession of Doctrine but we Roman Catholicks 8 All these signs are marks of the true Catholick Church and are so obvious to our senses that idiots may take notice of them if they will but inquire and spend as much time in that as in reading the History of their owne Countrey or of informing themselves of their Ancestors This is the true reason why no Protestants can pretend ignorance of the true Church nor rely upon the word of their Ministers If they inquire not they will be damned for being ignorant If after due inquiry made they become not Roman Catholicks they will be damned for Heresie not onely for denying the truth of our Doctrine and Faith but also the sufficiency of its proposal He is a rebell who denyeth that the accustomed exterior signes of the Princes commission and authority which are seene in his Officers is not a sufficient proposall of his will and pleasure to have the said Officers obeyed as his Judges or Deputies c. I see no reason why the same ought not to be grated with proportion in our case unlesse Protestants thinke that Princes ought to be more respected in their Ministers then God in his Church or that there is greater evidence required to believe that God doth speake by his Church then to believe that Princes do speake by their subordinate Ministers Truly though this greater evidence were required Protestants can have no excuse because the signes of the Roman Church are greater evidence that it alone is the true one by which God declares and speaketh his minde then the signes of any Magistrate in a Common-wealth or Kingdome are of the true regall authority of the said Magistrate by which Kings and Princes declare their minde to the Subjects See more in the 4. and 5. Chapters CHAP. XIII VVhether any Protestants may be saved 1 THough Protestancy be Heresie all Protestants are not Hereticks there is a difference saith Saint Austin betweene Hereticks and them who believe Hereticks The greatest wits may be misinformed if they rely upon other mens informations 2 To the question proposed I answer that such Protestants as never had any occasion to doubt whether their owne Religion be the true one may be saved if they never committed a mortall sinne because they are baptised and dye in the grace of God which they received in the Baptisme Now whether there be any Protestants who never committed a mortall sinne the Lord knowes this I am sure of that there are very few in any part of the world who have not great reason and many occasions to doubt of their owne Religion Because amongst them or neare unto the places where they live there are Catholicks who as Christians and true Friends advertise them of the falshood and novelty of their Sect. And though the Protestant Ministers assure them that they are in a safe way of salvation when others as honest and learned as the Ministers tell them the contrary they are bound under paine of damnation at least to examine the truth and grounds of both Religions according their capacity and possibility which if they do sincerely that is setting aside all regard of honour interest conveniency and all other temporall affections which obstruct the understanding God in his providence will give them knowledge of the truth and resolution to embrace it 3 But in case Protestants contemne the charitable warnings given them by Catholicks of the Schisme and Heresie wherein they are involved and neglect Gods inspirations of examining the truth there is no question to be made that if they dye in that condition they are damned because though they were brought up Protestants they had reason to doubt of their Religion seeing as honest and learned men as those that gave them their education and instruction advertised them seriously of their danger And not to examine whether the danger be reall or not in a matter of so high concernment is not excusable no ignorance can be pretended after they are admonished by sober and honest men I conclude therefore that onely such silly soules as believe the Pope hath hornes and the Jesuits cloven feete can be excused by ignorance from damnation for not believing as Catholicks doe because if any such be they are so simple that they believe all which the Minister sayes as Gods Word and that nothing ought to be called in question How many Ministers there be who deserve this credit and esteeme of infallibility even amongst the least prying and simple people let their owne Parishes and the world define This I dare say that there are few Protestants who commit not at least one mortall sinne and that is enough to damne them though their invincible ignorance as schoole men speake may excuse their want of true Faith But the want of Charity is as damnable as the want of Faith and we have no reason
inchanted that no Writer had the use of his fingers to set downe in writing a matter of so great consequence having notwithstanding the free use of their penne in relating a thousand other changes of lesse importance We have no reason to judge that former ages were lesse vigilant and carefull in preserving the purity of Christian Religion and the true sense of Scripture then the present is because their vigilancy appeareth by their suppressing of Heresies in every age which suppression and protestation against the said Heresies of every respective age was never judged or condemned for an innovation against the Doctrine received from former times but rather is a confirmation of it so that the exceptions made by Berengarius VValdo and other such persons against Roman Catholicks doth rather strengthen then weaken the Doctrine of the Roman Church seeing their exception was so strongly and constantly cryed downe by all the world for innovation 6 Some have said that as gray heares grow in a mans head and the corruption of a language growes on by little and little without particular notice taken of the precise time so the change and corruption of Religion hath crept in insensibly in the Roman Catholick Church But this is a most silly similitude as if men were as much concerned to watch the new growth of every gray heare or the mispronunciation of every word as the Pastors and Doctors of the Church and all Christians are concerned to observe the beginning of a new article of Faith or as if this were no more observable or making no more impression upon mens mindes or no more change in the practise of the Church then a gray haire in a mans head or an odde word in common speach Put the case that in this age to fertile of sopperies some great and considerable part of Christianity should set up a calfe to be adored for the God of the Christians would this be no more remarkable then a gray haire in a mans head No lesse remarkable is it to hold up a wafer cake for the like adoration and over and above to oblige people to sweare that it is no bread Is it credible or possible that if in Berengarius his time this had beene begunne that the whole world would not have cryed out against it and not onely the Doctors out of Scriptue but the very children out of their Cathechismes had cryed it downe or that so many Bishops and learned men assembled in so many Councells namely in that most univerfall compleate Councell of Lateran should have declared so hard a matter to be a necessary pâ—int of Christian Faith and that so many ages since should have universally accepted it and defined it againe in other Councels if it had been a meer innovation and not an ancient tradition and beliefe of the Catholick Church The like may be said of the respect we give to Images or any other articles of our Faith 7 Another evident and visible signe confirming the testimony of the Roman Catholick Church alone Ioan. 14.12 is Miracles whereof in all ages we have good store to spare to the Protestant Churches which never could produce one cleare Lib 22. de Civit. Dei cap. 8 prope sinem and undeniable Miracle whereas Saint Austine telleth us how that in the presence of him and othes a devout woman called Palladia who being sore diseased and repairing for her health to the monument of Saint Stephen recovered suddainly her health by praying to the Saint a thing now condemned by Protestants as superstition or idolatry and injurious to God Ad sanctum Martyrem saith Saint Austine orare perrexer at I. Aug. lib. 22. de Civit Dei cap. 8. II. Nazian in Cyprian saith Omniapotest pulvis Cypriani cum fide c. miraculum usque ad nos transmiserunt Chrysost in libro contra Gentiles III. Eusebius hist l 7. c. 14. Athan de Passione imaginis Christi in Berito alleaged in 2 Concil Nicen. act 4. IV. S. Chrysost de Sacerdot to lib. 6. c. 4. V. VI. S August de Civit. Dei l. 22. c. 8. circa mediuw S. Gregor hom 37 in Evang. S. Beda hist l. 4. c. 22. ante med VII S. Hieron in vita Hilarionis versus finem S. Athanasius in vita Antonij VIII Epiphanius haer 30. ante med Theodoret. hist l. 5. c. 21. IX Cyprian in serm de lapsis post med S. Ambros in Orat. funebri de obitu fratris sui Satyri cap. 7. X. Optatus lib. 2. contra Donatistas Bernard in vita Malachiae XI Evagrius l. 4. c. 25. XII Ioann Clymachus in lib. Climax grad 4. Beda hist l. 5. c. 14. XIII S. Bernardus in vita Malachia quae mox ut cancellot attigit collapsa similiter velut ad somnum sana surrexit c There is not any point of our Faith wherein Protestants differ from us but God hath worked miracles in confirmation of it against our adversaries See the Saints and Fathers cited in the margen for proofe of this Assertion and in particular concerning 1. Prayer to Saints 2. Reliques 3. the Image of Christ 4 reall presence 5. Sacrifice of Christs Body 6. Purgatory and prayer for the dead 7. the great vertue of the signe of the Crosse 8. Holy water 9 reservation of the Sacrament 10. Holy Chrisme 11 Adoration of the Crosse 12. Confession of sinnes to a Friest 13 and extreme vnction 8 Another cleate and visible signe of the true Church is the conversion of the Kings Apocal 20.11 Esay 49.24 and Nations of the Gentiles Onely the Roman Catholicks can challenge this marke not onely in former ages but also in this present as is notorious to our very adversaries in both the indies Iason China Persia c I have heard of some Catholick Countreys perverted by Protestants as England Scotland Sweâ—â—land c. but never of any converted to Christianity It were tedious to runne over all the signes of the true Church these are sufficient to demonstrate that the testimony of Catholicks ought to be preferred in matters of Religion before the testimony of Protestants because outs is confirmed by visible and supernaturall signes their 's with none unlesse you will take for true miracles Iohn Fox his ridiculous dreames and stories which he relates in his Acts and monuments a Booke so condemne by most wise men that one of them hearing a certaine person to be much taken with the reading of it concluded him to be a very silly man and of lesse judgement then he was esteemed by others that were ignorant of his being so addicted to Fox 9 If Protestancy be as contrary to reason and common sense as hath beene hitherto proved what wonder is it that any illiterate Catholick should convince the most learned Ministers and pillars of Protestant Churches unlesse it be supposed that we are deprived or at least know not how to make use of our reason and common sense Controversies of Christian Religion are not to be decided
by examining the truth of the mysteries we believe that is to be supposed and not disputed To be a good Controvertist is not to give reason of what you believe but to give reason why you believe what you understand not this last requires no Greek or Hebrew nor Schoole learning and therefore may be as well performed by a Catholick Clowne is by a Bachelour of Oxford or Cambridge 10 Now to descend to particular methods hereby the learned Protestants may be convinced by illiterate Catholicks I will onely mention two both of them very ordinary and usuall amongst the most vulgar sort of people The first is by asking of Protestants What newes of Religion The second by inquiring of them by what right or warrant do they condemne any article of the Roman Catholick Faith I do seriously averre that every Countrey-man who hath wit and judgement enough to except at the Assises against an illegall and false witnesse hath leaming enough to convince in controversies of Religion the most learned Protestant Minister And every carrier or husbandman who hath so much wit and judgement as not to believe an extravagant and incredible history or ballads of some strange feigned Monster hath wit and judgement enough to convince any Protestant whosoever The reason of this Assertion is very cleare because there was never so incredible a Monster or Chymera composed of so many contradictions and impossibilities as this new fangled Religion framed by the fancies of a company of dissolute Priests and Friars pretending to have beene enlightened by the Spirit of God and sent by an extraordinary calling without miracles to reforme not onely the manners but also the Doctrine of the Catholick Church What Countrey Clowne amongst Catholicks can be persuaded to believe that all this which the first Protestants pretend is true Is it not obvious to every rationall creature that God never made use of so wicked instruments to reforme the world and plant the true Religion What evidence do Reformers produce against the Doctrine of the Roman Church what witnesses what signes to confirme their testimonies Do Protestants agree amongst themselves All this will be more clearly understood by the ensuing Conference betweene a Catholick Clowne and a learned Protestant Minister SECT II. A Dialog betweene a learned Protestant Minister and a Catholick Clowne 11 CAth. What newes good Master Doctor of your English Protestant Church Minist As much persecuted as ever Bapists were by Queen Elizabeth There is liberty given to all Sectaries Anabaptists Quakers c. we onely are excepted against Cath. I see no reason why ye Protestants should not be reformed by Puritans and Quakers as ye reformed us Catholicks I am sure they bring as many texts of Scripture against your Doctrine and Discipline as ye did against ours Minist We reformed onely your Papisticall abuses that were contrary to the cleare Word of God Cath. The same thing do Puritans or Presbyterians say against you But it s incredible newes to me that which you tell me of any abuses we should have in our Church contrary to the expresse Word of God Minist Didst thou ever read the Scripture Cath. No truly Minist I knew so much the reason why ye are not permitted to read the Bible is that ye may not discover the errours which Jesuits and other Masse Priests teach ye as the respect to Images and Statues praying to Saints Purgatory c. These and many more are clearly contradicted by Scripture Cath. Though I were permitted to read Scripture I can not because I never learned to read Yet I have spoken with many learned men who read Scripture and they all unanimously assure me that there is not one word in all Scripture contradicting worship of Images praying to Saints or Purgatory Now I see no reason why I should reject their testimony and take yours 12 Minist Faith is a gift of God thou must not tye it to any mans sleeve pray to God that he may give thee his Spirit Cath. I have heard much of a Spirit that every one of ye Protestants and Puritans pretend to have but I could never see any effect or signe of it Minist We Protestants pretend no such Spirit Cath. How come ye then to alter the old sense of Scripture which was in England for a thousand yeares before Edward the VI. if no Spirit did inspire or interpret the Scripture after the reformed fashion why did ye not stick to the old way Minist Because we could not in consciences there being so many cleare texts against Popery Cath. That is incredible for in the space of a thousand yeares some man or other would meet with those cleare texts Minist Well thou art an honest fellow we will not dispute thou art not capable of understanding what I have to answer to that objection of thine Cath. Nay good Master Doctor trust my understanding for once I pray resolve my doubt Min. Truly I must deale clearly with thee I am of opinion that for the space of one thousand yeares past all Roman Catholicks did hold damnable Doctrine manifestly contrary to Scripture yet I believe their ignorance did excuse them from damnation 13 Caeh How is it possible that there should be so much ignorance in all the world for the space of a thousand yeares that none could see those cleare texts of Scripture which you and other Protestants pretend to see Min. Mistake me not Countreyman the texts of Scripture which we produce against your errours and superfluities are not so very cleare but that they may be misunderstood if God doth not enlighten the understanding as he hath done to us Protestants Cath. I thought you pretended no such Spirit or private inspiration I heare reported by credible Authors that the first Protestants or Reformers in every Countrey were dissolute Piests or Friars who married and lived not so exemplarly as the Catholick Clergy doth Therefore I can not persuade my selfe that God would enlighten them more then us at least I am not bound to believe it unlesse I see miracles or some other markes of sanctity which is more then ever I perceived as yet in any of your Religion I hope you will pardon my freedome Min. I warrant thou dost believe all the miracles that are reported to have beene done at Loreto Sichem and other Chappell 's Didst thou ever see any miracle thy selfe Cath. No indeed but I have seene others who were present at the working of strange miracles as that of Naples when the Jefuit Mastrilli was cured on a sudden by Saint Francis Xaverius and sent by him to lapon where he dyed a Martyr Many others I have heard testified by credible Authors that I have as much reason to believe as any who should endeavour to persuade me the contrary therefore trouble not your selfe in this matter unlesse you will have me doubt of all things I heare because I have been deceived in something Min. Why believe not ye our miracles as ye would have us believe