without it holiness is but hypocrisie C. I acknowledge that if you speak of the fundamental Articles of our Faith But all truths are not of equal certainty nor of equal importance now it is a certain and important truth that there should be an unity in the Catholick Church which is not to be broken but upon a matter of greater certainty and weight N. One precious truth is worth all the world therefore I will not quite one truth for the love of all men Not a hoof said Moses C. If you were required to condemn or deny any thing you judged truth I confesse you ought to obey God rather than man But it is another case to quite the communion of the Church because they are not as you think in the truth unlesse that truth be of greater importance than is the Article of your Faith The Catholick Church and the communion of Saints And when you are as sure of your call to contend for these truths as Moses was of the will of God you may use his words Let me then examine you a little how do you know your opinions are truths N. Who can doubt of it are they not the cause and interest of Christ his Kingdom and Crown his glorious work to which we are all bound by the oath of God taken in the Covenant whereinto even the children unborn are oblidged C. If big words prove truths you are full of them But remember of whom the Apostle gives this Character they speak swelling words of vanity And there is no party but have the same language in their mouth these are fine contrivances to lead away silly women captive who would be ready to judge your blustering confidence an evidence of truth when a modester way of speaking is suspect of diffidence whereas in right scales the one looks like arrogant pride and the other like the modest Spirit of Jesus Christ. N. How can you deny that what is now cried down was the work of God C. I confesse it was so the work of God as the Prophet said is there any evil in the City and the Lord hath not done it but in the sense you take it it was as far from it as darknesse is from light N. How can you speak so was not sin strangely born down in our dayes C. I confesse you studied to represse some sins so did the Pharisees But remember the Apostle divides filthinesse in that of the flesh and of the Spirit and indeed the latter proves a much subtiller and stronger opposition to the Gospel than the former It is true some of these were repressed by you though I must add in a way scarce suitable to the Gospel but for other sins you were very gentle to them nay were guilty of them your selves for they mingled in all you did N. Now you begin to rail and I cannot endure to hear those glorious dayes so spoken of Is this the moderation you so much proâ—esse C. I love moderation as much as any can and declare to you once for all that I have no quarrel at any for their opinions in these matters nor shall I labour to disgrace the leaders of your party by searching into their private escapes a practice much used by you against us your mouthes being ever full of bitter reproaches against some of our way but it is directly contrary to the Spirit of Christ and his Gospel wherein we are put in mind to speak evil of no man I shall therefore from your publick and avowed actions and printed papers shew how far you are out of the way of God And first what think you of your rebellion this was the Soul of your whole work and your Covenant was a Bond to cement you in this N. Call you fighting for God and his Cause rebellion C. It is yet under debate whether it be the Cause of God Suppose it were shew me one place in either Testaments that warrands Subjects fighting for Religion you know I can bring many against it yea though the old dispensation was a more carnal and fiery one than the new one is yet when the Kings of Iudah and Israel made Apostacy from the living God into â—eathenish Idolatry some of the Kings of Iudah polluting the Temple of Ierusalem as did Ahaz and Mannasseh so that God could not be worshipped there without Idolatry yet where do we find the people resisting them or falling to popular Reformations Neither do the Prophets that were sent by God ever provoke them to any such courses And you know the whole strain of the New Testament runs upon suffering N. The law of nature teacheth us to defend our selves and so there is no need of Scripture for it C. This is marvelous dealing in other things you alwayes flee from reason as a carnal principle to Scripture but here you quite Scripture and appeal to it but it seems you are yet a stranger to the very design of Religion which is to tame and mortifie nature and is not a natural thing but supernatural Therefore the rules of defending and advancing it must not be borrowed from nature but grace The Scriptures are also strangely contrived since they ever tell us of suffering under persecution without giving your exception that we resist when we are in a capacity And I appeal to your conscience whether it be a likelier way to advance Religion fighting or suffering since a carnal man can do the one but not the other N. How can we neglect the interests of Christ and let them ruine when we are in a capacity to defend them C. If there were not a God who governs the World your reasoning might have force but do you think that God cannot maintain his own right but the wrath of man must work his righteousnesse nay we see the contrary for from the beginning till this day God hath made the sufferings of his people the chief mean of propagating Religion whereas fighting hath been ever fatal to it And Christ did begin the Gospel with his suffering though he could have commanded Legions of Angels for his defence N. Christ knew it was the Fathers will that he must suffer C. This shews how little you understand when you speak so are not Christs injunctions our rule Since then he forbade his Disciples to draw a sword for him with so severe a threatning as whosoever will draw the sword shall perish by the sword this must binde us and what he sayes to Pilate on this â—ead My Kingdom is not of this world c. is so plain language that I wonder how it doth not convince all I know there are some pitifull answers made to those places but they are so irrational that they deserve not a serious reply and I am not of an humour to laugh at them only take notice of this that if an ingenuous man speak plainly much more must the God of truth Judge then whether these unworthy glosses make Christ likeer a nibling Logician then the true
than you will grant that all particulars must be determined since then as Moses determines the dayes of separation for a legal uncleannesse why doth not the Gospel determine the separation â—oâ— spiritual uncleannesse Nay further consider Moses instituted no Church-Government in the way we use it for that of the Tribe of Levi and house of Aaron was only Typical and to wait on the Temple and the Worship to be performed there Beside which they had Synagogues all the Land over and wherever they had Colonies in the World and in these they had their Rabbies their Scribes and their Rulers and their chief Ruler of their Synagogues which read their Law performed such Worship as was not tyed to the Temple at Ierusalem and they inflicted Discipline upon offenders and these might have been of any Tribe not only of that of Levi and yet our Saviour never challengeth this but went in to the rulers of their Synagogues the like you finde done by his Apostles and they never declame against it as an humane invention Whence it must follow that you must grant either what they did was founded on divine tradition which no Christian will grant or that a form of Government was devised by men and yet no unlawful thing And if the Jews had such liberty certainly the Christian Church is at least more free as to these externals And after all since Christ is the Head of the World as well as of the Church why did not he determine the order of the one as well as of the other N. The odds is very great for his Church is dearer to him than all the world C. Why then doth he not determine how his Church should be governed as to the civil matter since Justice is a part of his Law as well as devotion and the civil peace I hope you will grant is more necessary to the very being of the Church than is order in Discipline and so it was determined in the old Law but yet it is left at liberty in the new And though I should grant the Church as Church is dearer to Christ then as they are men a foolish and childish nicety Yet a King though he looks most to what is dearest to him he will have his authority acknowledged in all his dominions whence it will with the same parity of reason follow that since Christ is the King of the earth there should be no Offices in it but of his appointment N. I never loved this carnal reason it is an enemy to Religion Our Ministers bring us to the Bible for every thing they say but you come on with your reason C. Truly you have good cause to be against reason for it and you cannot both prevail If by carnal reason you mean a sober examining things by the dictates of Nature see that you condemn not that which is indeed the voice of God in us and therefor is to be received And if you make this contrary to Religion you bring as great a stain upon Religion as an Atheist could devise But if by reason you mean little pittiful nibling with some ill understood and worse applied distinctions out of Aristotle and Ramus as is very frequent among you that is justly called vain Philosophy And for Scripture do not think they build surest upon it who are ever quoting it fastest the Devil did that and so do all Sects And thus if you can rightly weigh things I have said enough to convince you that in matters of Government the Church is at liberty But if you will still go to Scripture I can positively say though in it nothing amounts to a demonstration There are fairer likelihoods for Bishops from that of the Angels of the Churches than ever you shall find in it for Presbytery but I will not say more of this Next let me tell you how soon this Government was in the Church N. I will not deny tares sprung very early in Gods Husbandry but that will never convince me To the Law and to the Testimony for from the beginning it was not so C. You do well to possess your self with a prejudice against these Churches but think soberly whether is it likelier that those who lived so nigh the sacred time understood the mind of the Apostles better then we do at the fagg end of an thousand and six hundred years As also whether is it liker that the Church then alwayes in the fire of persecution was purer then she is now God bless me from the pride of comparing my self with these worthies who were honoured to convert the world and to die for the truth N. But Bishops were not in the two first Centuries as our Ministers say C. They are grossly ignorant or disingenuous who say so all History being against them Ignatius Epistles are plain Language The Apostolical Canons a work of very venerable antiquity at least the first 50 of them though none of theirs perhaps all over shew the difference was then betwixt Bishops and Presbyters particularly the 40. Can. The Presbyters and Deacons shall finish nothing without the Bishop's sentence For he is intrusted with the people of God and shall be required to give account of their souls And the same thing was also enjoyn'd Syn. Azel Can. 19. And in Cyprian's time it is undenied that their power was then well regulate and settled For though that great Saint and Martyr tells lib. 3. Epist. 10. That he had decreed in the beginning of his Bishoprick to do nothing without the advice of his Presbyters yet Ep. 9. of that book to Rogatian a Bishop who had asked his advice concerning an affront he had received from a Deacon he sayes that by his Episcopal vigour and authority of his Chair he had power presently to punish him And towards the end of that Ep. he sayes these are the beginnings of Hereticks and the rise and designs of Shismaticks to please themselves and contemn their Bishop with insolent pride And it is clear Presbyters at that time even in the Vacancy of a See did not judge themselves sufficiently impowred for Ecclesiastical administration by what the Presbyters and Deacons of Rome write to Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 7. saying That since a Bishop was not at that time chosen in place of the deceased Fabian there was none to moderate all things amongst them who might with authority and advice take account of matters Sure they thought little of Presbyters being equal in power to their Bishop who write so of a Church wherein the Episcopal power might seem devolved on them But I believe few of you know these Writings In the Council of Nice speaking of the power of Metropolitans which was an additional thing to that of Bishops over Presbyters The Canon sayes Let the ancient Customs be in force Now how this excressing power should have crept into the whole Church and no mention when it came in no temporal Princes nor universal Councils to introduce it and that at a time of
A MODEST AND FREE CONFERENCE BETWIXT A Conformist and a Non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland The second Edition Now in seven Dialogues By a Lover of Peace Gal. 5.15 But if ye bite and devour one another take heed ye be not consumed one of another Published by Order Printed Anno Dom. 1669. The Stationer to the Reader Reader ALL the account I can give of this Book or the Author is in the following Letter which came to my hands a few dayes after I received these Sheets and is prefixed to them in stead of a Preface For the Stationer THough these Dialogues were brought to you by another hand than my own yet since it is upon my motion that they came to be Published contrary to the Authors design and truly without his order I think my self oblidged to say somewhat of the Author and the book and the rather that the Author not being forward to the publishing of it will say nothing of Preface himself But withall I am resolved you shall be as ignorant of the Writter of this as of the Author of the Book The Author is a person of extraordinary moderation and peaceablness he can allow any difference of opinion but such as is incompatible with the peace and quiet of the Church And though there be some expressions in these Dialogues that would appear tart yet it is meerly occasioned by the zeal he hath against that uncharitable spirit which can allow of nothing that is not exactly of their own way The occasion of writting in this way was that a Book of the same title and nature printed in England came to the Author's hands and he being pleased with that familiar way of Writting thought presently of composing Dialogues suitable to our Differences here as that was to the Differences of that Nation If there be any thing in this coincident with that Book it is in such things as the humours of that unquiet spirit in both Nations are the same And the Author designs not vanity by these few sheets written to my knowledge in as few houres as they could hardly be transcribed But wisheth every one to see the weakness of those grounds upon which such specious structurs are built which when they come to be examined prove but painted sepulchres The great design of the Author in this small Book is to let some well-meaning people who have a love to godlinesse see that Religion is not at all concerned in things wherein they do concern themselves very much and that in contending for the shell we are like to loose the kernell of Religion The language and manner of Writting is accommodated to these meaner capacities who are most apt to be abused by such as care not nay which is very sad but too true wish not Religion nor godliness to prosper in the hands of those who differ from them in opinion about externall things vvhich are not of great moment as may appear from their persvvading poor souls to take for a mark of zeal that which in al christian Nations is lookt on as a very great mark of impiety to wit not going to Church by which people do shew in the most signal manner they can their not owning the worship and adoration of God The Author meaned no prejudice to any person in vvritting of it Nor is it published upon any such design but in hopes that it may inform sincere people And whoever reads it without prejudice will I hope judge so of it Farewel A modest and free Conference betwixt a Conformist and a Non-conformist about the present distempers of Scotland In six Dialogues DIALOGUE I. Con. YOu are welcome from the West How are all things there Non. Never worse The glory is departed from that people and the power of godlinesse is gone there God pity that poor place which was once so Glorious C. I perceive by your manner of speaking that you are much concerned in these matters but I pray you tell me wherein things are turned so much to the worse among you N. Alas are you such a stranger in Israel as not to know these things are not our gracious Ministers taken from us so that the work of God is much born down the brave dayes of Communions Preachings Prayers are away and in stead of the fire was once there there remain but a few sparks in some secret corners for the precious Ordinances are gone C. What you say upon the matter I know well enough but do not apprehend it to be of such importance as you seem to do N. What! do not you think it sad that Christ is not Preached C. God forbid but he be I do not know how it is in your Country but I am sure with us Christ is preached very faithfully but I fear you consider not well what it is to preach Christ do you think to tell us only of his death is to preach him N. No no but oh how doth my heart melt within me when I remember how sweetly I have heard the Ministers there clear up my interest in Christ C. May be it was more sweetly then sincerly for to tell you of an interest in him while you are strangers to his Laws and Gospel is to deceive you since you can have no interest in the blood of Christ till you have his Spirit dwelling in you N. Blessed be God I know no name to be saved by but the Name of Christ And I renounce mine own righteousnesse and accept of his righteousnesse C. It is very true that we are saved by the blood of Christ but it is as true that we must be purified by his Spirit else we are none of his If by renouncing your own righteousnesse you mean what you naturally can perform without grace you are in the right but if you lean so to Christs righteousnesse as to neglect to be righteous your self you with Iudas kiss your Master while you betray him And I fear your Ministers studied more to convince you of the need of Christs righteousnesse then of having any of your own For indeed it is a cheap Religion to lean so intirely to Christ that we do nothing our selves N. We are far from thinking there is no need of good works We only exclude them from Justification which is by Faith only C. Truly your practices tell you think there is as little need of them to Salvation as to Justification remember the Gospel is plain and simple and came not to teach men Sophistry or Logick therefore I shall not contend with you about words or phrases for as I believe that Christ came to lay down his life a ransome for our sins so if you believe that without holinesse we shall never see the face of God we are agreed in this matter But I wish we all studied to live better and then our differences would quickly end N. Yes I hear some of you are still talking of holiness and peace but you forget truth which is so necessary that