That at Rome no man may say that the Councel is above the Pope nor at Paris that the Pope is above the Councel In a word the Papists are at great odds but they cunningly conceale them insomuch as it is observed that some of them would say to their friends in privat Thus or thus I would say in the schooles and openly Sed maneat inâ—er nos diversum sentio but keepe my counsel I thinke the contrarie PA. We may haply be at ods in some Scholasticke points but not in matters defined by the Pope and a Generall Councel PRO. You would have us beleeve that at the sound of the Popâ—s sentence like frogs in a marish at the falling in of a great log or stone you are all hushed and silenced but it is not so for since the Trent decrees were published divers of your side are divided about the sense thereof iâ—somuch as they differ in the maine points thereof which in your account are fundamental and the deniers therof reputed Hereticks This may appeare by these instances The Pope in the Councels of Trent and Florence decreed the Apocrypha to bee Canonicall Scripture yet since that decree Driedo and Sixtus Senensis have called them in question and rejected them The Pope in the last Councelâ— is decreed to be above a Councel and yet since that time Alphonsus à Castro hath writ the contrarie The Trent Councel teacheth Sess. 6. Iustification by Inherent righteousnes condemning those that beleeve the imputation of Christs Righteousnesse and yet Albertus Pighius defendeth imputed â—ighteousnesse so doth Cardinal Contaren in his treatise of Iustification Again the Pope decreed against the certainty of grace salvation defining Sess. 6. that no man should beleeve these things of himselfe yet Catharinus defended the contrary holding that a man might have the certainty of Faith touching these thingsâ— and when the Trent Councels authority was objected against him he eluded it by divers sleight distinctions The truth is the Papists have a kind of unitie to wit a superstitious and hypocriticall crouching to the popes chayreâ— for so long as they agree to go to mass swear to the popes supremacy other things are tollerated although they coÌ„sent like harp harrow And surely were it not for the great profit and riches which knit the parts of this body together like twinnes that have different heads but tied together by the belly we should see this great body of the papacy would soon be divided scattered and dispersed Howsoever for any differences amongst the Protestants we may thankefully acknowledge that it was the wonderfull Providence of God that so many severall Countries Kingdomes and States abandoning the abuses of the Church or rather Court of Rome and making particular reformation in their owne dominions without generall meetings and consents should have no more nor greater differences than are found amongst them Object It is usuall with you in your Catalogue to say such and such as namely S. Bernard or the like taught for substance as you doe agreeing only with you in some fundamentall points but this will not serve to make them members of your Church for by the like reason the Quartadecimanes Novatians Donatists and Pelagians might pretend to the Catholike Church in as much as they agreed therewith in some fundamentall truths Answer 1 Agreement in one or more fundamentals maketh not a man a Catholike Christian tho disagreement in any one fundamentall joyned with obstinacie makes a man an Heretike 2 To make a man actually a member of the true Church more is required than agreement in the profession of the same fundamentall points of faith for not only heresie but schisme also excludeth a man from Communion with the true Catholike Church 3 Fundamentall points as well conceâ—ne life and manners as faith and he that impugneth the doctrine of the Decalogue is as well an Heretike as he that impugneth the doctrine of the Creed Nicholas directly impugned the one and by evident consequence the other by maintaining his impure communion or rather community of wives 4 The Quarta decimanes who kept Easter on the fourteenth day precisely were of two sorts Some as Polycrates and other Bishops of Asia kept it so meerely in imitation of S. Iohn the Evangelist and those were never condemned for Heretikes Others kept the fourteenth day by vertue of the Mosaicall Law and these by consequent destroyed the foundation as those did among the Galathians who urged Circumcision to whom S. Paul there professeth That Christ should not profit them and that they were fallen from grace 5 Novatians erred in a fundamentall point concerning Repentance and by consequent overthrew that Article of the Creed Credo remissionem peccatorum 6 The Donatists were rather Schismatikes than Heretikes and rather made a rent in the Church then were excluded from it Saint Austin in his seventh tome every where calleth it Schisma Donati in the end they grew to bee heretikes and denied in effect that fundamentall Article Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam 7 The Pelagians erred in divers fundamentall points concerning originall sinnâ— and the necessity of Grace For farther answer we say that the Authors we produce against the Romanists are of two sorts 1 Some we alleadge onely as Testes veritatis in such or such a point or points of faith 2 Others wee produce as members of our reformed Church and fore-runners of Luther Of the first sort is Bernard very orthodoxe in all points against the Pelagians but otherwise tainted and an open enemy to the Albigenses Of the second sort are the Waldenses Wicklifists and Hussites who as appeares by their confessions of faith extant in Orthuinus Gratius and the History of the Waldenses agree with uâ— in all Fundamentals not onely in some as the Heretikes above mentioned agreed with the Church Objection What though Saint Hierome Bernard and others agree with you in some generall truths men of contrarie religions may have divers materials of doctrine common to both now this is but a genericall agreement which is no more than the agreement betweene a man and a beast Answer 1 Saint Hierome and Bernard are not well rancked together Saint Hierome was a through Papist in no point Bernard was in some living in a corrupt age seaven hundred yeeres after Saint Hierome 2 Besides we answer that Waldo Wickliffe and Husse with others agree with us not onely Generically in the common grounds of Christianitie but Specifically in those formall points which we hold at this day against the Romane Church and as for such calumnies as are cast upon them they are already confuted in this treatise neither will any indifferent person regard them for when once that infamous name of Hereticke was fastned upon a man nothing was too heavie for such an one any thing was beleeved of that man and from thence it is without question that we find so many so absurd so senselesse opinions imputed to them
affection as the Scriptures are to be reverenced Is not this to minglâ— water with wine base mettall with good Bullion and so indeed a corrupting of Scripture Besides you have which is fearefull detracted from Gods Word thaâ— which was written with his owne finger to wit the second Commandement against the worship of Images and because the words thereof are sharpe and rip up the heart-strings of your Idolatrie you have therefore omitted them in your Catechismes Prayer bookes and in your Office of the blessed Virgin set foorth by commaund of Pius Quintus and to salve up the matter lest thereby wee should have no more then nine Commaundements you have cut the tenth into two You might well have left the words â—here that Gods people might know there was such a Commandement howsoever they had counted it the first or the second Now as you have detracted so you have added to the rule of Faith by thrusting into the Canon the Apocryphall bookes which Hierome the best languaged of all the Father rejected Lastly you doe not only allow but impose on others a corrupt translation of Scripture to wit the vulgar Latine Edition whereas wee referre our selves to the Originals Now surely wee may better trust an originall Record than a Copie extracted thence and it is more wholesome to drinke at the well-head than at a corrupt and muddie streame Now the Latine Edition which you follow and preferre before all others it is but a Translation it selfe but the Hebrew and Greeke which wee follow are the Well-springs and Originalls Is not this now a manifest corrupting of Scripture to bind all men as your Trent Councell doth that none dare presume to reject this Translation which by your owne men is confessed not to be Saint Hierâ—mes and already showne to be a corrupt one by the learned of our side PA. I looke to have your Professors named PRO. Restore us entire our Evidence which you have marred and made away returne us our Witnesses which you have chained up in your Vatican Library and elsewhere and wee accept your challenge But doe you indeed looke to have our professors named and why so the true Church of God may bee visible though the names of her visible professors from time to time can not be shewed there might be thousands of professors in former ages and yet happily no particular authentick Record of their names now extant or if extant yet so as we cannot come by them Neverthelesse to answere you at your owne weapon I hope to make it cleare that God hath dealt so graciously with his Church as that he hath continually preserved sufficient testimonies of his truth that are ready to be deposed on our side and that successively from age to age so that I may say as Saint Ambrose did in the like case You may well blot out our Letters but our Faith you shall never abolish Papists may conceale our evidence and wipe out the names of our Professors out of the Records but when all is done the Protestants faith is perpetuall Now in that we yeeld thus farre to their importunitie we doe not this as if it were simply necessary for the Demonstration of our Church to produce such a Catalogue of visible Professors in all Ages but onely out of the confidence of the truth of our cause and partly to stop the mouth of our clamorous adveâ—saries For it is Tertullians Rule that A Church is to bee accounted Apostolike if it hold Consanguinitie of Doctrine with the Apostles Now what though we could noâ— successively name such as taught as we doe yet because God hath promised there should be alwaies in the world a true Church having either a larger or smaller number of Prosessors it sufficeth that we are able out of Scripture to demonstrate that we maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the holy Apostles taught and Christ would have to be perpetuall this I say sufficeth to manifest our Succession although all Histories were silent of the names of our Professors Now that I am to speake of the Church in her severall and successive Centuries and Ages to give the Reader some Character and touch thereof I will beginne with the fiâ—st 600. yeares next after Christ wherein ten severall times during the fiâ—st three Centuries the Church was persecuted by Tyrants and almost continually assaulted by Heretikes yet in the end Truth prevailed against Error and Patience overcame her Persâ—cutors This is the time wherein our learned Bishop Iewell challenged the Papists to shew any Orthodoxe Father Councell or Doctor that for the space of those 600 Yeares taught as the present Church of Rome did the like challenge was lately renued by my deare friend that worthy Divine Doctor Featly of Oxford challenging the Iesuits to produce out of good Authors any Citie Parish or Hamlet within 500. yeares next after Christ wherein there was any visible assembly that maintained in generall the Articles of the Trent Councell or such and such points of Popery as at the Conference hee named in particular Now of this period the first 300. yeares thereof were the very flower of the Primitive Church because that in theâ—e dayes the truth of the Gospell was infallibly taught by Christ and his Apostles and that in their owne persons as also by otheâ—s that lived to heare see and converse with those blessed Apostles and disciples of Christ Iesus and this haply made Egesippus an ancient Authour call the Church of those dayes an uncorrupt and virgin Church and yet was this virgin Church ill intreated by such a sowed the tares of errour which yet the carefull husbandman in time weeded up neither indeed for the space of these first 300 could those Tenets of Poperie get any footing their Papall Indulgences were yet unhatched their purgatory fire was yet unkindled it made not as afterwards their pot boyle and their kitchin smoake the Masse was yet unmoulded Transubstantiation was yet unbaked the treasury of Merits was yet unminted the Popes transcendent power was uncreated Ecclesiastickes were unexempted and deposing of Kings yet undreamed of the Lay-people were not yet couzned of the cup Communion under one kinde was not yet in kinde it was not then knowne that Liturgies and prayers were usually and publikely made in a tongue unknowne they did not then worship and adore any wooden or breaden god they worshipt that which they knew and that in Spirit and truth and they called on him in whom they beleeved so did they and so doe wee In a word in the former ages of the Church Satan was bound after the thousandth yeare hee was loosed and after the middle of the second Millenary about the yeare 1370 hee was bound anew Concerning the Churches estate in the next five hundred yeares it grew very corrupt so that of these times we may say as Winefridus borne at Kirton in Devonshire after surnamed Boniface was
Eleutherius time or in the Apostles dayes for had it beene so the Britaines who changed not their Faith but kept still the substantiall grounds thereof would likewise have held the Popes Supremacie yea doubtlesse those Catholike Bishops of Britaine had they but knowne and believed as now it is given out the Pope to be Iure divinâ— by divine right and Gods appointment the Monarch of the whole Church they would have yeelded obedience to Austine and in him to the Pope but they opposed it as being urged by those of the Romish faction so that it was not then as now it is made one of the chiefe heads of the Romish Faith for now a dayes men are made to believe that out of the Communion of the Romane Church nothing but hell can be looked for and subjection to the Bishop of Rome as to the visible Head of the Vniversall Church Is required as a matter necessary to salvation But this was no part nor Article of the ancient Britaines Creed and therefore they withstood it and if it were no Article of Faith them surely it is none now a dayes To close up this point hereby is overthrowne the maine Article of the Romane Creed For if as the Papists say and sweare there be no salvation out of the Romane Communion then is the case like to goe hard with the one thousand two hundred British Monks of Bangor stiled Saints and Martyrs that died out of the Roman Communion and yet within the Communion of Saints But this Grand Imposture of the now Romane Church is notably discovered by the learned and zealous Bishop of Coventrie and Lichfield Doctor Morton now Lord Bishop of Durham My conclusion shall be this out of the holy Catholike Church of the Creede there is no salvation but out of the fellowship of the Romane Church there hath beene and is salvation as appeares in the case of these our British Martyrs therefore the present Romane Church is not as it is pretended the Catholike Church of the old Creede but a particular of the new Trent Creede THE SEVENTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 600. to 700. PAPIST PRoceede to name your men PROTESTANT I name Gregory the great whom Bellarmine usually placeth in this seventh Age for that hee lived unto the yeare 605 what time as Trithemius saith he dyed Now also lived his Scholler Isidore Bishop of Sivil in Spaine usually termed Isidore the younger Now also by Bellarmine's account though others make him much ancienter lived Hesychius Bishop of Hierusalem with other Worthies as namely the Britaines of Wales as also Saint Aidan and Finan now also was held the sixth Generall Councell PA. I challenge Saint Gregory hee is ours PRO. Gregorie indeed lived in a troublesome time whiles the Goths and Vandals overranne Italie and Rome was besieged by the Lombards There was then also great decay in knowledge and scarcity of able men to furnish the Church withall and few in Italie as Baronius saith that were skilled both in Greeke and Latine Yea Gregory himselfe proâ—esseth that hee was ignorant of the Greeke tongue yet was he stâ—led the great and yet not so great as godly and modest It is commonly said of him That he was the last of the good Bishops of Rome and the first of the bad ones That he was the first Pope and leader of the Pontifician companies and the last Bishop of Rome Hee was supeâ—stitious in diverse things hee lived in a declining age and as in time so in some truths came short of his predecessours yet he taught not as your Trent Papists doe but joyned with us in diverse weighty poynts of Religion Of the Scriptures sufficiencie and Canon Gregory held the Scriptures sufficiencie saying Whatsoever serveth for edification is contayned in the volume of the Scriptures wherein are all resolutions of doubts fully and plentifully to be found they being like a full Spring that cannot be drawne drye Hee approved the vulgar use of the Scriptures exhorting a Lay-man to study them because saith hee they bee as it were Gods Letter or Epistle to his Creature wherein he reveales his whole minde to him And lest any complaine of the difficulty of the Scriptures he compares them to a River wherein there are as well shallow Foords for Lambes to wade in as depths for the Elephant to swim in And Isidore saith that the Scripture is common to petty Schollers and to Proficients And whereas Heretickes use to alleadge Scripture for themselves Gregory saith they may bee confuted by Scripture it selfe even as Goliath was slaine with his owne sword Gregory held the bookes of Maccabees Apocryphall Wee doe not amisse saith he if wee produce a testimony out of the booke of Maccabees though not Canonicall yet published for the iâ—struction of the Church And Occham accordingly reports Gregories judgement saying The booke of Iudith Tobias the Maccabees Ecclesiasticus and Wisedom are not to bee received for the confirmation of any doctrine of Faith Isidore saith In these Apocryphall although there be some truth to be found yet by reason of the many errours therein they are not of Canonicall authâ—rity Of Communion under both kindes and number of Sacraments Saint Gregory in his Dialogues if they be his tells us of some that were going to Sea some whereof happily were Lay-men carryed with them the consecratâ—d body and bloud of the Lord in the Ship and there received it And againe His body is there recâ—ived his flesh is there divided for the peoples salvation his bloud is not now powred out upon the hands of Infidels but into the mouth of the Faithfull Hee speakes expressely of the Faithfull and of the people And in his Homily touching the Passeover he saith What is meant by the bloud of Christ you have now learned not by hearing of it but by drinking of it which bloud is then put on both posts when it is drawne in both by the mouth of the body and of the heart Herein Gregory resembles the partaking of Christ's bloud in the Eucharist to the bloud of the Paschall Lambe in the twelfth of Exodus striken upon both poâ—ts of the doore thereby noting the mouth and the heart each whereof after their manner receive Christ for with the mouth and corporally wee receive the wine which is the Sacrament of his bloud and with our heart and by faith we receive the thing Sacramentall the bloud it selfe Besides hee speakes expressely of drinking and the termes hee useth hauritur and perfunditur That Christ's bloud is shed and taken as a draught demonstrate that he speaks not of partaking Christ's bloud as it is joyned to his body and inclosed in his veines but as severed from it as my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly hath observed Isidore saiâ—h The fourth prayer is brought in for the kisse of Peace that all bâ—ing reconciled by charity may
of weake abilities and also for that they had made a booke which they called the everlasting Gospell whereunto they said Christs Gospell was not to be compared Pope Alexander the fourth was content upon complaint made unto him that the Friers booke should be burned provided that it were done covertly and secretly and so as the Friers should not be discredited thereby and as for William of Saint Amour hee dealt sharply with him commanding his booke to be burnt as also he suspended from their benefices and promotions all such as either by word or writing had opposed the Friers untill such time as they should revoke and recant all such speeches and writings at Paris or other places appointed so tender was his holines over the Friers credit and reputation knowing belike what service might be done to him and his successours by these newly errected orders of â—riers I call them newly erected for in the time of Pope Innocent the third about the yeare 1198 the Iacobites an order of preaching Friers were instituted by Saint Dominicke and about the beginning of this age the order of Franciscans preaching Friers Minors was instituted by Saint Francis borne at Assise a towne in Italy Of the Scriptures sufficiencie and Canon SCoâ—us saith that supernaturall knowledge as much as is necessarie for a wayfaring man is sufficiently delivered in sacred Sâ—ripture Thomas Aquinas in his commentary upon that place of Saint Paul the Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation that the man of God may be perfect 2 Timoth. 3.15.17 saith that the Scriptures doe not qualifie a man aâ—ter an ordinarie sort but they perfit him so that nothing is wanting to make him happy And accordingly Bonaventure saith The beneâ—it of sâ—ripture is not ordinarie but such as is able to make a man fully blessed and happy Hugo Cardinalis speaking of the bookes rejected by us saith These bookes are not received by the Church for proofe of doctrine but for information of manners Of Communion under both kindes and nâ—mber of Sacraments ALexander Hales howsoever he some way incline to that opinion that it is sufficient to receive the Sacrament in one kind yet he confesseth that there is more merit and devotion and compleatnesse and efficacie in receiving in both Againe hee saith Whole Christ is not sacramentally conteined under each forme because the bread signifieth the body and not the blood the wine signifieth the blood and not the body Concerning the Churches practise wee doe not finde that the lay people were as yet barred of the cup in the holy Sacrament for our Countrey-man Alexander Hales who flourished about the yeare of Grace 1240. saith that we may receive the body of Christ under the forme of bread onely sicut fere ubique fit à Laicis in ecclesiâ as it is almost every where done of the Laiety in the Church it was almost done every where but it was not done every where Concerning the Sacraments the Schoolemen of this age can hardly agree amongst themselves that there be seaven Sacraments properly so called Alexander of Hales saith that there are onely â—oure which are in any sort properly to be sayd Sacraments of the new Law that the other three supposed Sacraments had their being before but received some addition by Christ manifested in the flesh that amongst them which began with the new Covenant onely Baptisme and the Eucharist were instituted immediately by Christ received their formes from him and flowed out of his wounded side Touching Confirmation the same Alexander of Hales saith the Sacrament of Confirmation as it is a Sacrament was not ordained either by Christ or by the Apostles but afterwards was ordained by the Councell of Meldain France Touching extreame unction Suarez saith that both Hugo of Saint Victor in Paris and Peter Lombard and Bonaventure and Alexander of Hales and Altissidorus the cheefe schoolemen of their time denyed this Sacrament to be instituted by Christ and by plaine consequence saith he it was no true Sacrament though they were of opinion that a Sacrament might be instituted by the Apostles and therefore admitted not of this consequence Of the Eucharist COncerning the Eucharist Scotus saith that it was not in the beginning so manifestly beleeved as concerning this coversion But principally this seemeth to move us to hold Transubstantiation because concerning the Saraments we are to hold as the Church of Rome doth And hee addeth wee must say the Church in the Creed of the Lateran councell under Innocent the third which begins with these words Firmiter credimus declared this sence concerning Transubstantiation to belong to the veritie of our faith And if you demaund why would the Church make choice of so difficult a sence of this Article when the words of the Scripture This is my Body might be upholden after an easie sence and in appearance more true I say the Scriptures were expounded by the same spirit that made them and so it is to be supposed that the catholike Church expounded them by the same spirit whereby the faith was delivered us namely being taught by the spirit of truth and therefore it chose this sence because it was true thus farre Scotus Let us now see what Bellarmie saith Scotus tells us saith he that before the Councell of Lateran which was held in the yeare one thousand two hundred and fifteene transubstantiation was not beleeved as a point of faith this is confessed by Bellarmine to be the opinion of Scotus onely he would avoyd his testimonie with a minime probandum est Scotus indeed saith so but I cannot allow of it and then hee taxeth Scotus with want of reading as if this learned and subtile Doctor had not seene as many Councels and read as many Fathers for his time as Bellarmine The same Bellarmine saith that Scotus held that there was no one place of scripture so expresse which without the declaration of the Church would evidently compell a man to admit of Transubstantiation and this saith the Cardinall is not altogether improbable It is not altogether improbable that there is no expresse place of Scripture to proove Transubstantiation without the declaration of the Church as Scotus sayd for although the Scriptures seeme to us so plaine that they may compell any but a refractary man to beleeve them yet it may justly be doubted whether the Text be cleare enough to enforce it seeing the most acute and learned men such as Scotus was have thought the contrary thus farre Bellarmine unto whom I will adde the testimonie of Cuthbert Tonstall the learned Bishop of Durham His words are these Of the manner and meanes of the Reall presence either by Transubstantiation or otherwise perhaps it had beene better to leave every man that would be curious to his owne conjecture as before the councell of Lateran it was left and Master Bernard Gilpin a man most holy and
knowledge of Letters and study of Tongues specially the Greeke Latin began to spread abâ—â—ad thorow divers parts of the West Of this number were Emanuel Chrysoloras of Constantinople Theodorus Gaza of Thessalonica Georgius Trapezuntius Cardinall Bessarion and others in like sort also afterwards Iohn Capâ—io brought the use of the Greeke and Hebrew tongues into Germany as Faber Stapulensis observeth And in the beginning of this age Hebrew was first taught in Oxford as our accurat Chronologer Mr. Isaacson hath observed Now also lived Nicholas de Lyra a converted Iew who commented on all the Bible In this age there were divers both of the Greeke and Latin Church who stood for Regall Iurisdiction against Papall usurpation and namely Barlaam the Monke Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica Marsilius Patavinus Michael Cesenas Generall of the gray Friers Dante the Italian Poet and William Ockam the English man sometime fellow of Merton Colledge in Oxford surnamed the Invincible Doctor and Scholler to Scotus the subtile Doctor Now also lived Durand de S. Porciano Nilus alleadgeth divers passages out of the generall Councels against the Popes supremacy and thence inferreth as followeth That Rome can not challenge preheminence over other Seas because Rome is named in order before them for by the same reason Constantinople should have the preheminence over Alexandria which yet she hath not From the severall and distinct boundaries of the Patriarchall Seas he argueth that neither is Rome set over other Seas nor others subject to Rome That whereas Rome stands upon the priviledge that other places appeale to Rome he saith That so others appeale to Constantinople which yet hath not thereby Iurisdiction over other places That whereas it is said the Bishop of Rome judgeth others and himselfe is not judged of any other he saith That St. Peter whose successour he pretends himselfe to be suffred himselfe to be reproved by S. Paul and yet the Pope tyrant-like will not have any enquire after his doings Barlaam prooveth out of the Chalcedon Councell Canon 28. That the Pope had not any primacy over other Bishops from Christ or S. Peter but many ages after the Apostles by the gift of holy Fathers and Emperours if the Bishop of Rome sayth hee had anciently the supremacy and that S. Peter had appointed him to be the Pastour of the whole Church what needed those godly Emperours decree the same as a thing within the verge of their owne power and jurisdiction Marsilius Patavinus wrote a booke called Defensor Pacis on the behalfe of Lewis Duke of Baviere and Emperour against the Pope for challenging power to invest and depose Kings Hee held that Christ hath excluded and purposed to exclude himselfe and his Apostles from principality or contentious jurisdiction or regiment or any coactive judgement in this world His other Tenets are reported to be these 1 That the Pope is not superiour to other Bishops much lesse to the Emperour 2. That things are to be decided by Scripture 3. That learned men of the Laiety are to have voyces in Councels 4. That the Cleargy and the Pope himselfe are to be subject to Magistrates 5. That the Church is the whole coÌ„pany of the faithfull 6. That Christ is the Head of the Church and appointâ—d none to be his Vicar 7. That Priests may marry 8. That St. Peter was never at Rome 9. That the popish â—ynagogue is a denne of theeves 10. That the Popes doctrine is not to be followed With this Marsilius of Pâ—dua there joyned in opinioÌ„ Iohn of Gandune and they both held that Clerkes are and should be subject to secular powers both in payment of Tribute and in iudgâ—ments specially not Ecclesiasticall so that they stood against the Exemption of Clerkes Michael Cesenas Generall of the Order of Franciscans stood up in the same quarrell and was therefore deprived of his dignities by Pope Iohn the two and twentieth from whom he appealed to the Catholicke universâ—ll Church and to the next generall Councell About this time also lived the noble Florentine Poet Dante a learned Philosopher and Divine who wrote a booke against the Pope concerning the Monarchy of the Emperour but for taking part with him the Pope banished him But of all the rest our Countrey-man Ockam stucke close to the Emperour to whom he sayd that if he would defend him with the sword he againe would defend him with the Word Ockam argueth the case and inclineth to this opinion that in temporall matters the Pope ought to be subject to the Emperour in as much as Christ himselfe as he was man professeth that Pilate had power to judge him given of God as also that neither Peter nor any of the Apostles had temporall power given them by Christ and hereof he gives testimony from Bernard and Gregory Ockams writings were so displeasing to the Pope as that he excommunicated him for his labour and caused his treatise or worke of ninety dayes as also his Dialogues to be put into the blacke bill of bookes prohibited and forbidden It is true indeed that Ockam submitted his writings to the censure and judgement of the Church but as hee saith to the judgement of the Church Catholike not of the Church malignant The same Ockam spoke excellently in the point of generall Councels Hee held that Councels are not called generall because they are congregated by the authority of the Romane Pope and that if Princes and Lay-men please they may be present have to deale with matters treated in general Councels That a generall Councell or that congregation which is commonly reputed a generall Councell by the world may erre in matters of faith and in case such a generall Councell should erre yet God would not leave his Church destitute of all meanes of saving truth but would raise up spirituall children to Abraham out of the rubbish of the Laiety despised Christians and dispersed Catholikes Wee have heard the judgement of the learned abroad touching Iurisdiction Regall and Papall let us now see the practice of our owne Church and State In the Reigne of King Edward the third sundry expresse Statutes were made that if any procured any Provisions from Rome of any Abbeyes Priories or Benefices in England in destruction of the Realme and holy Religion if any man sued any Processe out of the Court of Rome or procured any personall Citation from Rome upon causes whose cognisance and finall discussion pertained to the Kings Court that they should be put out of the Kings protection and their lands goods and chattels forfeited to the King In the Reigne of King Richard the second it was enacted That no Appeale should thenceforth be made to the Sea of Rome upon the penalty of a Praemunire which extended to perpetuall banishment and losse of all their lands and goods the words of the statute are If any purchase or pursue
say it was not onely apparant enough in the Greeke and Easterne Churches and in such as had made an open separation from the Romish corruptions such as were in these Westerne parts the Wâ—ldenses Wickleâ—iâ—ts and Hussites but it was also within the community of the Romish Church it selfe even there as in a large field grew much good corne among tares and weeds there as in a great bâ—rne heape or garner was preserved much pure graine mixed with store of chaffe Object I except against that you have said Master Brereley cals it a Ridle To say your Church was under the Papacie as wheat is under the chaffe and yet the Papacie was not the true Church Answer It is no Enigma or Ridle it being all one in effect as to say the Christian Church at our Saviours comming and after consisting of Ioseph and Mary Simeon and Anna the Shepherds and the Sages Christs disciples and others was in and under the Iewish Church consisting of Scribes and Pharisees who with their false glosses and vaine traditions had corrupted the Law of God was not sanum membrum a sound part of Gods Church but as our Saviour saith Like sheepe without a Shepheard Mark 6.34 Object You say your Church was under the papacie but the papacie was not the true Church by the like reason you may say that the hidden Church of God is preserved among the Turkes can there be a Church without an outward ministerie Answer It followeth not and the reason of the difference is because amongst the Turkes there is not that meanes of salvation inasmuch as they have not given their names to Christ but the true Church of God may bee preserved withiâ— the Romish Church in as much as they have the Scriptures though in a strange tongue as also Baptismeâ— and lawfull ordination and the like helpes which God in all ages used that his Elect might begathered out of the midst of Babylon And whereas you urge an outward and publike ministery this maketh nothing against the Church of England which for substance hath the same descent of outward ordination with the Roman Church neither can any man shew a more certaine pedegree from his great Grand father than our Bishops and Pastors can fâ—om suâ—h Bishops as your Church accounts canonâ—call in the time of King Henry the eight and upward such â—aâ—re evidence can wee produce for an outward and publâ—ke miâ—istery in the Church of England and such ordination wee hold very necessary and yet in case it cannot be had Gods children by their private reading and meditation of that which they have formerly learned may supply the defect of a publike ministery even as some Christians at this day being slâ—ves in Turky or Barbarie may be saved wiâ—hout externall ministery but this is in case of extremity for us we never wanted a standing ministery Neither did the Waldenses Wicklivâ—sts and Hussites for so I call them for distinction sake ever want an outward and lawfull ministery amongst them for the administration of the word and Sacramentsâ— Object You say your Professors communicated with the Roman Church but did not partake in her errours as you call them did they not joyne with them in the Massâ— and the Letanies of the Saints and the like Answer The thing wee say is this that howsoever they outwardly communicaâ—ed with Rome yet divers of them misliked in their heart their grosser erroâ—s they groaned under the Babylonish yoake and desired reformation besides many of them were ignorant of the depth and mysterie of poperie Object If your Protestant Church were in bâ—ing at and before Luthers appearing then did such as were members thereof either make profession thereof or not if they did tell us their names and where they did so if they did not then were they but dissemblers in Religion according to that of Saint Paul Rom. 10.10 and our Saviour Math. 10.33 Answer I will but take what your Rhemists grant and reâ—oâ—t your owne argument they say That the Catholike Church in their time was in England although it had no publike government nor open free exercise of holy function whence I argue thus if their Roman Church had any being at that time in England then their Priests and Iesuits either made publike profession of their faith or not if they made open profession why then did they goe in Lay-mens habits and lurke in corners if they made not open profâ—ssion then were they but dissemblers Besides I have already given you in a Catalogue of our professors who within the time mentioned witnessed that truth which wee maintaine by their writings confessiâ—ns and Martyrdom Now for us wee have rejected nothing but popery wee have willingly departed from the Communion of their errors and additions to the faith but from the Communion of the Church wee never departed In a word there were some who openly and constantly withstood the errours and corâ—uptions of their time and sealed with their bloud that truthâ— which they with us professed others dissented from the same errours but did not with the like courage oppâ—se themselves such as would sâ—y to their friends in private Thus I would say in the Schooles and openly Sed maneat inter nos diversum sentio but keepe my Councel I thinke the contrary PA. Was not the Masse publickly used in all Churches at Lâ—thers aâ—pearinâ— was Protestancie then so much as in being saith Master Bâ—eâ—ely PRO. If by a Protestant Church saith learned Doctor Field we meâ—ne a Church beleeving and teaching in all poinâ—s as Protestants doe and beleeving and teaching nothing but that they doe the Latine or West Church wherein the Pope â—yranâ—ized before Luthers time was and continuâ—d a true Protestant Church for it taught as we doe it condemned the superstition wee have removed it groaned under the yoke of tyranny which wee have cast off howsoever there were many in the midâ—t of her that brought in and maintained superstition and advanced the Popes Supremacie But if by a Protestant Church they understand a Church that not onely dislikes and complaines of Papal usurpation but also abandonâ—th it and not onely teacheth all necessary and saving truth but suffâ—reth none within her jurisdiction to teach otherwise wee confesse that no part of the Westerne Church was in this sort a Pâ—otestant Church till a Reformation was begun of evils formerly dislikâ—d Now whereas it is objâ—ctâ—d that the Masse wherein they say many chiefe poinâ—s oâ— their Râ—ligion are comprehended was publickely uâ—ed at Luthers appearing It is answered by Doctor Field that thâ— usiâ—g oâ— the Masse as the publicke Liturgie is no good proofe inasmuch as manifold abuses in pâ—actice besides and contrary to thâ— word of the Canon and the inâ—enâ—â—â—â— of them that first compoâ—ed the sameâ— have creâ—t into iâ— as also sundry Apocryphall thiâ—gs have slipt into the publicke Service of the Church these things will bâ—tter appeare by â—articular instances Concerning private
Trithemij Epist. Familiar in 1. part opeâ—is Histor. Trithem Francof 1601. Fran. Turrian Denfens Canon Epistol Decretall Lut. 1573. Tyndarus de test extat in tom 4. tract illust juris consult Venet 1584. V. Greg. de Valentia in Sum. Aquinat tom quart Paris 1609. De reb Fidei controvers Lugd. 1591. Laur. Valla de Constantini Donatione in Fascic rer expetendar fugiend Colon. 1535. Gabr. Vasquez Disput. in tert part S. Thom. tom prim Ingolstad 1610. tom 3. Antuerp 1614. In primam Secundae Aquinat tom secundus Ingolstad 1612. Vaux his Catechisme Antwerp 1574. S. Vdalric de Coelibatu Cleri inteâ— monum S. Patr. Orthodoxographa edit per Io. Iac. Gryn Basil. 1569. And. Vega his opuscula de Iustificat Compl. 1564. Ferd. Velosillus his Advertent Theolog. Venet. 1601. B. Victor de persecut Vandalicâ Par. 1569. in tom 7. Biblioth vet Patr. Par. 1589. Hugo de S. Vistore opera in 3 tom Venet. 1588. Blas Viegas his commentar in Apocalyp Lugd. 1602. Nic. Vignier Recueil de l'Histoire de l'eglife A. Leyden 1601. Vincentius Belluacens opera ejus in 4. tom Venet. 1591. Pet. de Vineis lib. 6. Epistolar Ambergae 1609. Polyd. Virgilius de Rerum Inventor Fr. 1599. Vita Bernardi Gilpini per Georg. Carleton Episcop Cicistrens Lond. 1628. Rich. Vitus Basingstoch Histor. lib. 8. Atreb 1597. Io. Ludov. Vivâ—s de Disciplinis Lugd. 1551. Luâ— Vives Scholia in Augustin de Civit. Dei in tom ejus quint Basil. 1569. Iac. de Voragine Sermones 1501. Zachar. Vrsin Catechet explicat Lond. 1596. Conrad à Lichtena Abbas Vrspergensis Chron Paraleipom Fr. 1599. Iac. Vsserius de Christianarum Ecclesiar Successione Statu Lond. 1613. Iac. Vsserij Gotteschalcus Dublin 1631. Veter Epistolar Hibernic Sylloge Dublin 1632. His Answer to the Iesuites Challenge London 1631. Of the Religion professed by the ancient Irish London 1931. His Sermon at Wansted and before the Commons House of Parliament London 1631. W. Walafr Strabo Quaere Strabo Io. Paul Perrin his History of the Waldenses Lond. 1624. Wessembecij oratio de Waldensib extat in Joachimi Camerarij narratione de Fratrum Orthodox ecclesijs in Bohemiâ Heidelbergae 1605. Tho. Waldensis opera Venet. 1571. Tho. Walsingham Histor. Anglor Francof 1602. Wessâ—lus Gronigens de potestate Papae Matâ—ria Indulgentiar Hanov. 1612. Math. Westmonasteriens Flores London 1570. Whitakeri opera Gen. 1610. Fr. White Bp. his Reply to Iesuite Fisher London 1624. The Orthodox Faith London 1617. I. Wiclefs Conformitie with the Church of England by Tho. Iames Oxford 1608. Wiclefs Treatises against Friers published by Tho. Iames and printed according to the ancient Manuscript Copie remaining in the publike Library at Oxford Oxford 1608. Io. Wolfius Lection memorabil Lauvingae 1600. Z. Hieron Zanchij tomus sept Neostad 1605. Io. Zonaras Histor. in tom 3. Gr. Lat. Basil. 1557. FINIS Errata siâ— corrâ—ge In Epist. Ded. pag. 1. lin ult reade antedated pag. 2. lin 16. no râ—so In Praef. ad Lect. pag. 4. lin 2. and speâ—ke r. being to speake In Catal. test in the 5. Age lin 2. dele Andrew Rivet lin 10. B. of Cyrene r. B. of Cyrus or Cyria In the first Alphabet Pag. 7. lin penult r. they practise p. 18. in marg li. 17. r. 1590. pag. 35. lin 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 39. in marg li. 21. cap. r. cont pag. 42. l. 19. other r. the other pag. 55. l. 25. Christ r. God p. â—9 l. 5. learned r. taught pag. 76. lin 12. adde and we truely eat the word flesh pag. 78. l. ult substance r. person pag. 16â— lin 2. haec r. he viz. pag. 182. lin 15. were condemned r. were not condemned pag. 237. lin 2. glorifieth r. glorieth In the second Alphabet Pag. 14. in marg lin 1. nulluum r. nullum p. 31. l. 28. r. by a straine pag. 32. lin 24. dele as pag. 34. lin 31. saith r. hath pag. 51. in marg lin 14. r. sibi ipsi pag. 62. lin 3. r. I used pag. 84. in marg l. 13. r. salvatione pa. 100 in marg l. 8. r. tenuerim pag. 116. l. 14. r. heare pag. 123. l. 31. remaine r. to be abolished pag. 155. liu 29. universall r. easterne pa. 161. lin 13. did r. I did in marg lin 4. xiiij r. xij pag. 197. lin 24. many r. may pag. 204. lin 2. 60. r. 600. pag. 206. lin 1. god r. good The nine Articles of Religion handled in the severall Centuries of this Treatise are these 1 Concerning the Scriptures sufficiencie 2 Of the Scripture Canon 3 Of Communion in both kindes 4 Of the number of Sacraments 5 Concerning the Eucharist 6 Touching Worship of Images 7 Concerning Invocation of Saints departed 8 Of Iustification 9 Of Merits By the way arâ— handled The Popes Supremacie The power of Calling Councills Appeales to Rome Priestes Marriage c. THE PREFACE TO THE PROTESTANTS EVIDENCE PAPIST GOod morrow Neighbour are you going to Church so early PROTESTANT I am Sir and I should bee glad of your company PAP So should I be of yours but I doubt wee goe not to the same Church PRO. I am going to a Protestant Church and I take that to be a true member of the Catholike PAP It is not for the true Church is ever gloriously visible and had visible Professors in all ages but yours was not in being saith Father Brereley untill Luthers dayes and Father Campian calls to witnesse res omnes reculas all things both great and small things and thinglings that never any other Religion but the Catholike tooke any deepe root upon the face of the earth And hee saith further That one cannot spie out so much as one towne one village one house for fifteene hundred yeeres that savoured of your doctrine And Iesuite Coster saith It is manifestly evident that none in the universall world before Luther in the yeere 1517 held that Faith which Luther and Calvins Schollers professed PROT. This is but a vaine â—lourish of the Iesuites and controuled by their owne man Bristow who acknowledgeth that some there have been in many ages in some points of the Protestants opinion Now for our Tenet this it is The Church that is the societie of Christian people professing saving faith is never totally hidden but there bee still some that hold the right faith and deliver it over to others and yet in time of persecution and the like cases the Church is not alwayes so conspicuous as that a man seeing her outward pompe and ceremonies may poynt her out and safely joyne himselfe to such a company for thus Bellarmine makes the Church to be a Societie subjecting themselves to the See of Rome teaching trueth without errour and this Companie as visible as are the Citizens of Rome Now for the Protestant Church though it have not bin alwayes gloriously visible yet it hath been evermore so visible as the true Church ought to be PAP Saint
when as those Kings caused the Temple to be shut up the Sacrifice to cease and erected Idols in every Towne Besides at our Saviours comming we find but a short Catalogue of true professors mentioned to wit Ioseph and Mary Zacharie and Elizabeth Simeon and Anna the Shepherds in the fields and some others When Christ suffered death his little flocke as hee called it was scattered his disciple â—led and none almost durst shew themselves save Mary and Iohn and some few women with oâ—hers After our Saviours death the Apostles and their followers were glad to meet in Chambers whiles the Priests Scribes and Pharisees bare all the sway in the Temple â—o that as the Treatise of the true Câ—urchâ—s visibilitie haâ—h it if a weâ—ke body had then enquired for the Church it is likely they had beene directed to them In â—he time of those Ten persecutions there could not be any knowne assembly of Christians but foorthwith â—he Tyranâ—s labouâ—ed to root them out but as Tâ—rtullian saith The blood of the Martyrs was the seed of the Church they were peâ—secuted and yet they increased Afâ—erwards when the Arrian Heresie overspread all so that all the world was against Athanasius and he and some few Confesâ—ors stood for the Nicen Faith insomuch as Hierome said The world sighed and groaned marveiling at it selfe how it was become Arrian what a slender appearance did the true professors then make and yet in such dangerous and revolting times even small assemblies of particular congregations wheresoever dispersed serve to make up the universal Church Militant so that the Reader is not to be discouraged if hee find not the Protestant Assemblies so thronged since it was not so with the primative Church and S. Iohn foretold That the woman that is the Church persecuted by the Dragon that old Serpent the Devill and his instruments should flie into the Wildernesse where the Lord promised to hide her till the tempest of persecution were over-blowne wherein God dealt graciously with his Church for had her enemies alwayes seene and knowne her professors they would like cruell beastes have laboured to devoure the damme with her young the mother with her children Now whereas the Papists brag of their Churches Visibilitie their owne Rhemists are driven to confesse that in the raigne of Antichrist the outward state of the Romane Chuâ—ch and the publike entercourse of the faithfull with the same may cease and practise their Religion in secret And Iesuite Suarez thinkes it probable That the Pope shall professe his faith in secret Where is then your Tabernacle in the Sunne your light in the Candlesticke when as your Church and Pope shall walke with a darke Lanterne and say Masse in a corner PA. Why was not the Church alwayes so conspicuous PRO. Because sometimes her best members as Athanasius Hilarie Ambrose and others were persecuted as Heretikes and ungodly men and that by learned persons and such as were powerfull in the world able to draw great troupes after them of such as for hope favour feare or the like respects were ready to follow them In this and the like case when false Priestes broach errours and deceive many Tyrants persecute Gods Saints and cause others to retire then I say when the faithfull want their ordinarie entercourse one with another the number of the Church malignant maybe great in comparison of those that belong to the true Church PA. If the Church were not alwayes so conspicuous in what sort then was it visible a visible Church you grant PRO. In the generall militant Church there have in all ages been some Pastors and people more or lesse that have outwardly taught the truth of Religion in substance though not free from errour in all poynts and these have beene visible by their ordinary standing in some part of Gods Church Besides for the more part there have bin also some that withstood and condemned the grosse errours and superstition of their times and these good men whiles they were suffered taught the truth openly but being persecuted by such as went under the Churches name even then also they taught and administred the Sacraments in private to such faithfull ones as would joyne with them and even in those harder times they manifested their Religion by their Writings Letters Confessions at their Iudgement Martyrdome or otherwise as they could Now as learned Doctor White in his Defence of his Brothers booke hath observed whensoever there bee any Pastors in the world which â—ither in an open view or in the presence of any part thereof doe exercise though in private the actions of true Religion by sound teaching the truth and right administration of the Sacraments this is sufficient to make the Church visible by such a manner of visibilitie as may serve for the gathering and preserving of Gods elect Now such visible Pastors and people the Protestant Church was never utterly destitute of PA. You seeme to make the Church both visible and invisible PRO. May not one bee within and seene with his friends and yet hidden to his enemies visible to the seeing and invisible to the blind Indeed Tyrants Infidells and Heretikes they knew the true beleevers as men of another profession but blinded with malice and unbeliefe they acknowledged them not for true professors as M. Bradford told D. Day Bishop of Chichester the fault why the Church is not seene of you is not because the Church is not visible but because your eyes are not cleare enough to see it and indeed such as put not on the spectacles of the Word to finde out the Church but seeke for her in outward pompe are much mistaken Aelian in his History tels us of one Nicostratus who being a well-skilled Artisan and finding a curious piece of worke drawne by Xeuxis that famous Painter one who stood by wondered at him and asked him what pleasure hee could take to stand as hee did still gazing on the picture to whom hee answered Hadst thou mine eyes my friend thou wouldest not wonder nor aske me that question but rather be ravished as I am at the inimitable art of this rare and admired piece In like manner if our Adversaries had their eyes annoynted with the eye-salve of the holy Spirit they might easily discover the Protestant Church and her visible congregations The Aramites 2 Kings 6. chap. could not discerne the citie of Samaria whither the Prophet led them untill their eyes were opened no more can one discerne or difference the true Church from the malignant and conventicles of the wicked untill his mind bee enlightned And thus Saint Austin told the Donatists They could not see the Church on the hill because their eyes were blinded to wit either with ignorance or malice Saint Austin compares the Church to the Moone which waxeth and waneth is eclipsed and sometime as in the change cannot be seene yet none doubts but still there is a
Moone The Church sometimes shines in the cleare dayes of peace and is by and by over-cast with a cloud of persecution as the same Austin saith The Moone is not alwayes in the Full nor the Church ever in her glorious aspect PA. If your Church were alwayes visible where then was it before Luthers time PRO. I might also aske you Where was a great part of your Religion before the Trent Councell which was but holden about the yeere 1534. Now for our Religion it was for substance and in the affirmative parts and positive grounds thereof the question being not of every accessory and secondary poynt it was I say contained in the Canonicall Scriptures wheras you are driven to seeke yours in the Apocryphall in the Trent Creed the Trent Councell Now ours it was contained in the Apostles Creed explayned in the Nicene and Athanasian confirmed by the first foure generall Councels taught in the undoubted writings of the true ancient and orthodox Fathers of the primative Church justiâ—ied from the tongue and penne of our adversaries witnessed by the confessions of our Martyrs which have suffered for truth and not for treason This is the Evidence of our Religion whereas for proofe of yours in divers poynts you are driven to flie to the bastard Treatises of false Fathers going under the name of Abdias Linus Clemens S. Denys and the like as sometime Perkin Warbek a base fellow feigned himselfe to be King Edward the fourths sonne and for a time went under his name and yet these Knights of the poste must be brought in to depose on your behalfe though others of your side have cashiered them as counterfeits PA. If your Professors were so visible name them PRO. This is no reasonable demaund you have rased our Records conveied our Evidence clapt up our Witnesses and suborned your owne you have for your owne advantage as is already showen by that learned Antiquary of Oxford D. Iames and others and shall God willing appeare in the Centuries following you have I say corrupted Councells Fathers and Scriptures by purging and prohibiting what Authors and in what places you would and now you call us to a tryall of Names PA. Particular men may mis-coat the Fathers but our Church hath not PRO. You have witnesse your expurgatory and prohibitory Indices or Tables whereof since my selfe have of late bin an eye-witnesse and seene divers of them both in the publike and private Libraries in Oxford I will therefore acquaint the Reader with the mysterie thereof When that politike Councel of Trent perceived that howsoever men might bee silenced yet bookes would be blabs and tell truth they devised this course They directed a Commission to a company of Inquisitors residing in severall places and therby gave them power to purge and prohibit all manner of Bookes Humanitie and Divinitie ancient late in such sort as they should think fit Vpon this CoÌ„mission renued as occasion served the Inquisitors set forth their severall expurgatory and prohibitory Indices printed at Rome in Spaine in the Low-countries and elsewhere and in these Tables yet to be seen they set down what books were by theÌ„ forbidden and which to be purged and in what places ought were to bee left out whensoever the Workes should be printed anew for according to their Tables or Corrections books were to be printed afresh Now to make sure worke they got as many of the former Editions of the Fathers workes as they could into their hands and suffered no new Copie to come foorth but through their fingers purged according to their Receit neither feared they that their adversaries would set foorth the large volumes of the Fathers Workes or others having not the meanes to vent their Impressions being forbidden to be sold in Catholike countries By this meanes the Romane Censurers thought to stop all tongues and pennes that none should hereafter speake or write otherwise than the Trent Councell had dictatedâ— and so in time all Evidence should have made for the Romane cause Hereby the Reader may perceive that had their device gone on they would in time by their chopping and changing the writings of the Ancient at their pleasure have rased and defaced whatsoever Evidence had made for us and against themselves But so it pleased God that howsoever they had carried the matter cunningly in secret yet at length all comes out their plot was discovered and their Indices came into the Protestants hands The Index of Antwerpe was discovered by Iunius the Spanish and Portugall was never knowne till the taking of Cales and then it was found by the English PA. Might wee not purge what was naught PRO. Indeed if you had purged or prohibited the lewd writings of wanton Aretine railing Rablais or the like you had done well but under-hand to goe and purge out the wholesome sentences of the Fathers such as were agreeable to the Scriptures thus to purge those good old men till you wrung the very blood and life out of them bewrayeth that you have an ill cause in hand that betakes it selfe to such desperate shifts Neither can you justly say that you have corrected what others marred for it was your side that first kept a tampering with the Fathers Works and corrupted them Francis Iunius reports that hee comming in the yeare 1559 to a familiar friend of his named Lewis Savarius Corrector of a Print at Lâ—yden found him over-looking Saint Ambrose Workes wâ—ich Frâ—llonius was printing whereof when Iunius commended the elegancie of the Letter and Edition the Corrector told him secretly it was of all Editions the worst and drawing out many sheets of now waste paper from under the table told him they had printed those sheetes according to the ancient and authenticke Copies but two Franciscan Fryers had by their authoritie cancelled and rejected them and caused other to bee printed and put in their roomes differing from the truth of all their owne books to the great losse of the Printer and wonder of the Corrector so that had yoâ— prevailed neither olde nor new Greeke nor Latin Fathers nor later Writers had been suffered to speake the truth but eiâ—her like Parraâ—s been taâ—ght to lispe Popery or for ever beeâ— put to silâ—nce The best is the Manuscripts which by Gods providence are still preserved amongst us they mâ—ke for us as D. Iames excellently vers'd in Antiquitie hath showen at large PA. Have â—ee purged ought in the Fathers or Scriptures that was not to bee purged PRO. You have as appeares by these instances following St. Chrysostome in his third Sermon uâ—on Lazarus and elsewhere maintaineth thâ— peâ—spicuitie and plainnesse of the Scripâ—ures saying That in divine Scriptures all necessary things are plaine Hee likewise holdeth that faith onely sufficeth in stead of all saying This one thing I will affirme That faith onely by it seâ—fe saâ—eth In like sort Saint Hierome holds That faith only justifieth that workes doe not justifie that
they do meane the Pope for the time being Now to this height the Pope came under pretence of the Churches government the Churches discipline racking the spirituall censure to a civill punishment by the Church solemnities in crowning Emperors by his Excommunications Absolutions and Dispensations he rose to his greatnesse of state by the doctrine of workes meritorious Iubilees Pardons and Indulgences hee maintained his State And now I come to shew out of good Authors that in nine severall weighty poynts of Religion the best guides of Gods Church for the space of 1500 yeares have taught as the Church of England doth THE FIRST CENTVRIE From the first yeare of Grace unto the yeare One Hundred Christ Iesus and his Apostles the Protestants Founders PAPIST WHom doe you name in this first Age that taught the Protestant Faith PROTESTANT I name our blessed Saviour Christ Iesus and his Apostles Saint Paul and his Schollers Titus and Timothie together with the Churches which they planted as that of the Romanes Corinthians and the rest These I name for our first Founders and top of our kin as also Ioseph of Arimathea that buried Christs body a speciall Benefactor to the Religion planted in this land These taught for substance and in the positive grounds of religion as we doe in our Articles Liturgies Homilies and Apologies by publike authoritie established in our Church of England Besides these there were but few Writers in this age whose undoubted Works have come to our hands yet for instance sake I name that blessed Martyr of Christ Ignatius Bishop of Antioch who for the name of Iesus was sentenced to bee dâ—voured of wild beasts which hee patiently indured saying I am the Wheat or graine to bee ground with the teeth of beasts that I may be pure Bread for my Masters tooth let fire rackes pulleys yea and all the torments of Hell come on mee so I may winne Christ. Here also according to the Roman Register I might place Dionysius Areopagita whom they usually place in this first Age as if hee were that Denys mentioned in the Actes whereas indeed hee is a post natus and in all likelihood lived about the fourth Age and not in this first for Denys saith That the Christians had solemne Temples like the Iewes and the Chancell severed with such and such sanctification from the rest of the Church whereas the Christians in this fiâ—st age made their assemblies to prayer both in such private places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and as the times of persecution suffered them Againe Denys tells us that when hee wrote Monkes were risen and they of credit in the Churches and many Ceremonies to hallow them whereas in the Apostles time when the true Dionysius lived Monkes were not heard of yea Chrysostome saith That when Paul wrote his Epistle to the Hebrewes there was not then so much as any footstep of a Monke PA. I challenge Saint Denys for ours hee was as our Rhemists say all for the Catholikes PRO. Take him as he is and as he comes to our hands hee is not wholly yours but in some things cleane contrary to you as namely in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper wherein you vary from us most Besides hee hath not your sole receiving of the Priest nor ministring under one kind to them who receive nor Exhortations Lessons Prayers in a tongue which the people understand not he hath not your Invocation of Saints noâ— adoration of creatures nor sacrificing of Christ to God nor praying for the soules in purgatory so that in things of substance and not of ceremony onely he is ours and not yours as I hope will appeare by his Writings for we will for the time suppose him to be a Father of this first age although the bookes which beare Saint Denys his name seeme to bee written in the fourth or fifth age after Christ. PAP Can you proove that Christ and his Apostles taught as you doe PRO. Wee have cleare testimonies of Scripture which appoint Gods people to receive the blessed Cup in the Sacrament and to be present at such a divine service as themselves understand wee have expresse command forbidding Image-worship against Invocation of Saints it is said that Abraham knoweth us not and Isaac is ignorant of us and the blessed Angel refused all religious honour and Adoration Likewise against Merit of workes and workes of Super-erogation it is said that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall bee revealed in us and that wee are unproâ—itable servants when we have done all that was commanded us we have but done that which was our dutie to doe and the like PA. You alleadge Scripture and so doe wee yea in some things the Scripture is plaine for us as where it is said This is my Bodie PRO. What though it make for you in shew so doth it for the Anabaptists where it is said that the Christians had all things common you will not hence inferre that because in such an extremitie their charitie for the reliefe of others made things common concerning the use that therefore we should have no property in the goods that God hath given us It is not the shew and semblance of words but the sense thereof that imports the truth Saint Paul sayes of his Corinths Ye are the body of Christ yet not meaning any Transubstantiation of substance but hâ—reof anon in his due place PA. The Scriptures make not for you but as you have translated them PRO. For any point we hold we referre our selves to the Originalls yea wee say further let the indifferent Christian Reader who hath but tollerable understanding of the Latine Tongue compare our English translations with those which your owne men Pagnine Arias Montanus and others have published and they will finde but little countenance for Poperie and namely for Communion in one kind and Service in a strange Tongue which as is already proved hath bene decreed directly contrary to Gods expresse word but let us come to the particulars Of the Scriptures sufficiency and Canon The Church of England holds that Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation so that theâ—e is no doctrine necessary for our everlasting salvation but that is or may bee drawne out of that Fountaine of truth as being either expressely therein contained or such as by sound inference may bee deduced from thence and this is witnessed by Saint Paul saying that they are able to make us wise unto salvation that the man of God may bee perfited and throughly furnished unto all good workes which they should not bee able to doe if they contained not a perfect doctrine of all such poynts of faith as we are bound to bâ—leeve and duties to bee practised And if it be said that S. Paul speakes of the man of God such an one as
could at the samâ— time dictate unto seven severall Clarkes or Notaries hee was of such esteeme that divers would say Malle se cum Origene errare quà m cum alijs verâ— sentire that they had rather erre with Origen than thinke aright with others hee exhorted others to Martyrdome and from his child-hood was himselfe desirous of the honour thereof but in the seventh persecution under Decius hee fainted and his heart was so overset with feare to have his chaste body defiled with an ugly Ethiopian that hee chose rather to offer incense to the Idoll then to bee so filthily abused for this cause hee was excommunicated by the Church of Alexandria and for very shame fled to Iudea wherâ— he was not only gladly received but also requested publikely to preach at Hierusalem But so it was falling upon that place of the Psalmist Vnto the ungodly saith God why doest thou preach my Lawes and takest my Covenant in thy mouth whereas thou hatest to bee reformed and hast cast my words behind thee Psalm 50.16.17 These woâ—ds so deepely wounded his heart with griefe that hee closed the booke and sate downe and wept and all the congregation wept with him In expounding the Scriptures hee was curious in searching out of Allegories and yet falling on that place Math. 19.12 Some have gelded themselves for the kingdome of heaven hee tooke those words literally and gelded himselfe to the end hee might live without all suspition of uncleannesse whereas hee expounded almost all the rest of the Scriptures figuratively Hee held a fond opinion concerning the paines of devils and wicked men after long torments to bee finished It is usually said of him Vbi bene scripsit nemâ— melius ubi malè nemo pejus where hee wrote wellâ— nâ—ne better so that wee may say of him as Ieremy of his figs the good none better the evill nonâ— worse Ier. 24.2 Cypriaâ—â— was a learned godly Bishop and glorious Martyr he erred indeed in that he would have had such as had beene baptized by Heretikes if afterwards they returned to the true Church to bee rebaptized yet he was not obstinate in his errour hee was as Aâ—stin saith of him not onely learned but docible and willing to bee learned and that hee would most easily have altered his opinion had this question in his life time beene debated by such learned and holy men as afterwards it was so that S. Austin makes this observation touching Cyprians errour hee therefore saw not this one truth touching Rebaptization that others might see in him a more eminent and excellent truth to wit his humilitie modestie and châ—ritie Of the Scriptures sufficiencie and Canon Tertullian though hee stood for Ceremoniall traditions unwritten and for Doctrinall traditions which were first delivered from the Apostles by word of mouth and afterwards committed to writing yet dealing with Hermogenes the Hereticke in a question concerning the faith whether all things at the beginning were made of nothing presseth him with an Argument ab Authoritate negativè Whether all things were made of any subject matter I have as yet read no where saith hee Let those of Hermogenes his shop shew that it is written if it bee not written let them feare that wâ—e which is allotted to such as adde or take away but for himselfe hee professeth that hee adoreth the fulnesse of the Scripture And why may not wee also argue negatively touching divers Tenets of Poperie that from the beginning it was not so Math. 19.8 In the two Testaments saith Origen eveâ—y word that appertaineth to God may bee required and discussed and all knowledge of things out of them may be understood but if any thing doe remaine which the holy Scripture doth not determine no other third Scripture ought to be received for to authorize any knowlâ—dge Origen in his exposition upon the first Psalme faith wâ—e may not bee ignorant there are two and twenty bookes of the old Testament after the Hebrewes which is the number of the Letters among them This is likewise witnessed by Eusebius that as Origen received the Canon of the Iewes so likewise he reiected those sixe bookes which wee terme Apocriphall with the Iewes Of Communion under both and the number of Sacraments Tertullian speaking in generall of Christians saith the flesh feedeth upon the body and blood of Christ that the soule may be fatâ—ed as it were of God hee speakes of the body and blood of Christ as distinct things saying Corpore sanguine and elsewhere he mentions the Cup given to a Lay-woman saying from whose hands shall shee desire the Sacramentall Bread of whose Cup shall shee participate hee speaketh of a Christian woman married to an Infidell and sheweth the inconvenience of such a match whereby the faithfull wife was like to bee debarred of the comfort of receiving the Sacrament and drinking of the Lords Cup. Origen maketh this question What people is it that is accustomed to drinke blood and hee answereth the faithfull people Hereunto Bellarmine saiâ—h the people did drinke but they had no commâ—nd so to doe where hee grants us that communicating under both kinds was the Agend or Church practise in this age besides Origen in this very place alleadgeth Christs praecept for the Cup out of the sixt of Iohn Cyprian speaking of such as in time of persâ—cution had lapsed and not stucke to the truth and therâ—upon were barred from the Communion hee desires that upon their repentance they may bee admitted and hee gives this reason How shall wee sit them for the Cup of Martyrdome if before wee admit them not by right of Communion to drinke of the Lords cup in the Church And againe Because some men out of ignorance or simplicity in Sanctifying the Cup of the Lord and ministring it to the people doe not that which Iesus Christ our Lord and God the Authour and Institutour of this Sacrifice did and taught Where albeit the maine scope of the Epistle bee to prove the necessity of administring the Sacrament in Wine and not in meere water as the Aquarij did yet on the bye he discovers the practice of the Church for both kinds and saith expressely that the Cup was ministred or delivered to the people Tertullian in divers places of his works acknowledgeth the same Sacraments with us to wit Baptisme and the Lords Supper and Beatus Rhenanus in his notes upon Tertullian observes the same and for this hee is brought under the Spanish inquisition and roughly entertained for his paines as appeares by a Censure passed on him and extant in the latter end of Tertullians Works Of the Eucharist Tertullian disputing against Marcion who denied that Christ had a true Body confuteth him by a reason drawne from the Sacrament of the Supper in this manner A Figure of a Body presupposeth a true Body for of a shew or phantasie there can be no Figure But
of them as formerly Clemens Alexandrinus had done Concerning Saintly Invocation Origen saith wee must endeavour to please God alone and labour to have him Propitious unto us procuring his goodâ—will with godlâ—nesse and all kind of vertue And if Celsus will yet have us to procure the goodâ—will of any others after him that is God over all let him consider that as when the body is moved the motion of the shadow thereof doth follow it so in like manner having God favourable unto us who is over all it followeth that wee shall have all his friends both Angels and Soules and Spirits loving unto us And whereas Celsus had said of the Angels that they belong to God and in that respect we are to pray unto them that they may be favourable to us to this Origen answereth in this manner Away with Celsus his Councel saying that we must pray to Angels for we must pray to him alone who is God over all and we must pray to the Word of God his onely begotten and the first borne of all creatures and we must intreat him that he as high Priest would present our Prayer when it comes to him unto his God and our God Objection Iesuit Fisher saith that Origen in his writings upon Iob and Numbers taught Invocation of Saints Answer Bellarmine saith that Origen was not the author of those bookes upon Iob for therein is mention made of the Homousians so the Arrians called the Orthodox beleevers Now the Arrians rose not till after Origens time Origen indeed upon the Canticles saith it is not inconvenient to say that the Saints pray for us and in his Homily upon Iosuah he â—aith I doe thinke thus that all those Fathers who are departed this life before us doe assist us with their Prayers and in another place he saith if the Saints that have left the body and be with Christ doe any thing and labour for us let this also remaine among the hidden things of God and mysteries that are not to be committed unto writing Now we yeeld that the Saints pray for us in generall yet hence it followeth not that we should direct our prayers to them Besides Origens if and as I suppose and it is not inconvenient to say so these are but â—aint affirmations shewing that he speaketh doubtfully as on not fully resolved that it was so and in conclusion determineth si laborant pro nobis if in particular upon particulars they doe labour for us yet it is amongst Gods secrets and a mysterie not to be committed to writing Object It appeareth by Saint Cyprian that the Faithfull usâ—d to covenant in their life time that whether of them went to heaven before the other he should pray for his surviving friend Answer Concerning Saint Cyprians conceipt that the Saints after death remembred their old friends here as having taken fresh and particular notice of their severall states votes and necessities it followeth not thence that other Saints unacquainted with our particular desires and exigents doe in particular and by their merits intercede for the living and though they should make sute on our behalfe yet we have no warrant to pray to them To close up this poynt of Prayer to Saints Tertullian Cyprian Gregory Nyssen with others have written set Treatises de Oratione of Prayer and therein they deliver nothing touching this Saintly invocation but teach us to regulate all our Prayers according to that perfect patterne prescribed by our great Master wherein wee are required to direct our Petitions unto our Father which is in heaven Math 6.9 Luk. 11.2 These things saith Tertullian in his Apologie for the Christians in his time I may not pray for from any other but from him of whom I know I shall obtayne them because both it is he who is alone able to give and I am he unto whom it appertaines to obtaine that which is requested being his servant qui eum solum observo who observe him alone Of Faith and Merit Origen saith that Faith onely suffiseth to justification and concerning Merit the same Origen saith I caâ—â—ardly hee perswaded that there can bee any worke which may require the reward of God by way of debt seeing this very thing it selfe that wee can doe or thinke or speake any thing we doe it by his gift and largesse Objection Did not Origen and Tertullian hold Purgatory Answer Bellarmine indeed alledgeth Tertullians Booke de Animâ for proofe of Purgatory but it is well knowne that hee was led with the spirit of Montanus the Hereticke when he wrote that booke and for Origen Bellarmine confesseth hee was one of those who approoved so much of Purgatory that he acknowledged no other paines after this life but Purgatory penalties onely so that with him Hell and Purgatory were all one Objection In Saint Cyprians time the Martyrs intreated the Church for mitigation of penance imposed upon some offenders so that the satisfactions and suffering of Martyrs were communicated to others and thereby their indulgence or pardon was procured Answer In those times of persecution when many weake ones fell away from the open profession of the truth and sacrifised to Idols the Church sought by all meanes to honour Martyrdome and incourage Christians thereunto so that upon the request of imprisoned Confessors and designed Martyrs the Bishops were wont to release some time the Canonicall censure injoyned by the Church but these Martyrs did not heâ—eby think that they had made satisfaction for the temporall paine of Sin Besides this was spoken of living Martyrs and not of Maâ—tyrs defunct and of releasing censures forgiving faults in this world only not in Purgatoâ—y PA. Did not Cyprian hold Saint Peters Supremacie PRO. Hee might doe much with Pamelius his helpe who hath taken the Marginall glosse Petro primatus datur and put it into Cyprians text whereas Cyprian in the selfâ—-same Treatise saith the rest of the Apostles were even the same that Peter was being indued with the like fellowship of honour and power Cyprian indeed reverenced the Sea of Rome yet would hee have her keepe within hâ—r bounds as appeares in the case of Fortuâ—atus and others for so it was Cyprian having censured them and fearing lest they should flie to Rome and there seeke favour and protection from that Sea and so worke distraction between Rome and Carthage makes a decree to prevent Appeales to other places or claimes of other Bishops and this Synodall Epistle is sent to Pope Cornâ—lius perswading him not to admit of their complaints Seeing that it is decreed of us all sayth S. Cyprian that it is meet and right that every mans cause be heard where the crime is committed and every Pastor hath committed unto him a portion of the Flocke of Christ which hee is to govâ—rne and whereof hee is to give an account unto God and they who are under our
governement ought not to gad and wander but they should pleade their cause there where both Accusers and Witnesses may bee had except some few desperate and naughty fellowes thinke the authority of the Bishops of Africke which have already judged and condemned them to be lâ—sse meaning lesse than that of Cornelius to whom they fled Here wee finde opposition made to the Sea of Rome by that Catholike Martyr Cyprian and others even in the weighty poynt of Appeales for so Bellarmine makes appealing to Rome and not appealing from thence a mainâ— proofe of the Popes Supremacie Now to close up this age and to looke a little homeward all this time the Christian Religion flourished quietly in Britaine till in Dioclesians dayes which made vp the tenth persecution their Churches were demolished their Bibles burnt their Priests and their flocke murthered for now was Saint Alban beheaded at the City Verulam now called after him Saint Albanes of whom Fortunatus Presbyter an ancient Poet sayth Albanum egregium foecunda Britannia profâ—rt Fruitfull Britaine bringeth forth Alban a Martyr of great worth Hee was the first that in Britaine suffered death for Christ his sake whereupon he is called our Stephen and the Proto-martyr of Britaine In like sort his Teacher or Instructer Amphibalus was cruelly Martyred at the same place being whipped about a stake whereat his entrailes were tyed and thus winding his bowels out of his body was at last stoned to death so also was Iulius and Aaron Martyred at Leicester and in Lichfield so many that the place became another Colgatha or field of dead corps for which cause the City doth beare a field charged with many Martyrs diversly tortured they beare it for their Seale of Armes even unto this day as Master Camden hath recorded Now these Martyrs they suffered for that truth which we at this day hold and not for Popish Tenets which then were not in being We have now Surveyed the Fathers Faith and practice of the Church for the first three hundred yeares next after Christ and by this particular as Hercules whole body was measured by the breadth of his foote the Reader may proportion what were the Churches Creed and her Agends generally and constantly taught and practised in these times and I doubt not but he shall find that for substance of Religion they held as wee doe and not as the moderne Papists doe so that in comparison of Originall and Primitive Antiquity Poperie is but noveltie and this hath beene already shewne when as we drew the Character of the three first Centuries I will now onely give instance in the point of Indulgences and shew that in these best and ancient times there were no such Popes pardons as afterwards were marted For in latter times we find it recorded in the Salisbury Primer that Iohn the two and twentieth for the mumbling over of some short Prayers granted a Pardon of no lesse than a million of yeares Besides these three Prayers be written in the Chappel of the holy Crosse in Rome who that devoutly say them they shall obtaine ten hundred thousand yeares of Pardon for deadly sinne granted by our Holy Father Iohn the two and twentieth Pope of Rome and of another Prayer to be said as one goes thorow a Church-yard the same booke saith as followeth Pope Iohn the twelfth granted to all that shal say the Prayer following as they passe by any Church-yard as many yeeres of Indulgences as there have beene bodyes there buried since the Consecration of the said Church-yard In the same booke there is power given to one little prayer beginning with O bone Iesu to change the paines of Hell into Purgatory and after that againe the paines of Purgatory into the joyes of Heaven This Prayer is written in a Table that hanged at Rome in Saint Peters Church neere to the high Altar there as our holy Father the Pope is wont to say Masse and who so that devoutly with a contrite heart daily say this Orizon if he bee that day in the state of eternall damnation then his eternall paine shall be changed him into temporall paine of Purgatorie and if he have deserved the paine of Purgatorie it shall bee forgotten and forgiven through the infinite mercie of God Now sure I thinke that Antiquitie cannot paralell such presidents as these THE FOVRTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 400. to 500. PAPIST WHat say you to this fourth Age PROTESTANT This was a learned Age for now there lived Optatus Bishop of Milevis in Africa and in Asia there lived Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus Cyril Bishop of Hierusalem Macharius the Monke Basil the great the Christian Demosthenes as Erasmus calls him Gregory Nazianzene sirnamed the Divine and Grigory Nyssen brother to Saint Basil these three were equall in time deare friends and of neere alliance now also lived the Hammer of the Arrian Heretickes Athanasius the great Bishop of Alexandria great indeed for his learning for his vertue for his labour for his suffering when almost the whole world was set against him but above all great for his Creed the Athanasian Creed He suffered much trouble for the truth but God upheld him so that he dyed in peace full of dayes after he had governed the Church of Alâ—xandria six and forty yeares Nazianzene compared him in time of adversity to the Adamant for that no trouble could breake him and in time of prosperity to the Load-stone for that hee allured the hearts of men more intractable then Iron to imbrace the Truth of God In Europe there lived Hilarie Bishop of Poictiers in France and Ambrose Bishop or Millaine Ambrose was a man of noble parentage under the Emperour Valentinian hee was Governour of Liguria he was chosen from a secular â—udge to bee Bishop of Millaine and was faine to be christened before he could be consecrated he was zealous and resolute hee sharpely reproved Theodosius for the slâ—ughtâ—r of the innocent people of Thessalonica hee was grievously troubled by the Lady Iustina mother to Valentinian the second he said to his friends that were about him at his death I have not so lived that I am ashamed to live longer nor yet feare I death because I have a good Lord. Of the Scriptures sufficiencie Athanasius saith the holy Scriptures given by inspiration of God are of themselves sufficient to the discoverie of truth now if they be as the word signifieth allsufâ—icient to instruction then must they needs be all sufficient to all instruction in the truth intended and not onely sufficient for this or that point as Bellarmine would have it Saint Hilarie commendeth the Emperour Constantius for desiring the Faith to be ordered onely according to those things that be written thâ— same Hilarie assures us that in his dayes the word of God did suffice the beleevers yea what is there saith he concerning mans salvation that is not conteined in the word
eternall power and Godhead was manifested unto them by the creation of the World and the contemplation of the creatures hee addeth presently that God was sorely displeased with them and therefore gave them up unto vile affections because They changed the Glory of that incorruptible God into an Image made like unto corruptible men and to birds and foure-footed beasts and creeping things whereby it is evident that the Idolatry condemned in the wisest Heathen was the adoring of the invisible God whom they acknowledged to be the Creatour of all things in visible Images fashioned to the similitude of men and beast as the admirably learned Bishop Vsher hath observed in his Sermon preached before the Commons House of Parliament in Saint Margarets Church at Westminster Of Prayer to Saints There wanted not some who even in the Apostles daies under the pretence of Humilitie labored to bring into the Church the worshipping of Angels which carried with it a shew of Wisdome as Saint Paul speakes of it not much unlike that of the Papists who teach their simple people upon pretence of Humilitie and their owne unworthinesse to prepare the way to the Sonne by the servants the Saints and Angels this they counselled saith Theodoret should be done using humility and saying that the God of all was invisible and inaccessible and that it was fit men should get Gods favour by the meanes of Angels And the same Theodoret saith that they had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Oratories or Chappels of Saint Michael Now the Councel of Laodicea to meete with this errour solemnly decreed that Christians ought not to forsake the Church of God and goe and invocate Angels and pronounced an Anathema against any that should be found to doe so because say they He hath forsaken our Lord Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and given himselfe to Idolatry And Theodoret mentions the Canon of this Councel and declares the meaning of it in these words Whatsoever ye doe in word or deed doe all in the name of the Lord Iesus giving thanks to God and the Father by him The Synod of Laodicea also following this Rule and desiring to heale that old disease made a Law that they should not pray unto Angels nor forsake our Lord Iesus Christ now there is the same reason of Saints that there is of the Angels PA. Iesuit Fisher in his Rejoynder to Doctor Whites Reply the second and third point saith The Councel and Theodoret are thus to be understood that Angels are not to be honoured as Gods PRO. How appeareth it that Christians were so rude in those Ages as to imagine that Angels were Gods or that sacrifices after the Pagan manner were due to them It appeareth by Theodoret that those whom he condemneth did not thinke the Angels to be Gods but that they served them as ministring Spirits whose service God had used for the publishing of the Law PA. Bellarmine saith The Councel forbad all worship of Angels called Latreia as being proper unto God but Binnius liketh Baronius exposition better who saith The Councel onely forbad the religious worship of false and heatheâ—â—sh Gods PRO. Bellarmine doth wrong in restraining the Councels speech to a speciall kind of worship for Theodoret saith generally that the Councell forbad the worship of Angels Neither did the Councell meane thereby to forbid the religious worship of false and heathenish Gods for Theodoret mentioneth the Oratories of Saint Michael and of such Angels as were supposed to give the Law and therefore were not ill Angels Baronius perceiving that the place in Theodoret toucheth the Papists to the quicke telleth us plainely That Theodoret by his leave did not well understand the meaning of Pauls words and that those Oratories of Saint Michael were anciently erected by Catholikes as if Baronius a man of yesterday at Rome could tell better what was long since done in Asia than Theodoret a Greeke Father and an ancient Father and Bishop living above twelve hundred yeares agoe not farre from those parts where these things were done Others to avoid the force of the canon have corrupted the Councell making this reading That men should not leave the Church to pray in angles or corners turning Angelos into Angulos Angels into Angles or corners but Veritas non quaerit angulos the truth will admit none of these corners neither hath the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any affinitie at all with corners To proceed the Fathers of this age affirme that religious prayer is a proper worship belonging to the sacred Trinitie and by this argument Rom. 10 14â— conclude against the Arrians and Macedonians that Christ Iesus and the Holy Ghost are truely God because Christians believe in them pray unto them they accept their petitions Athanasius saith No man would â—ver pray to receive any thing from the Father and from the Angels or from any of the other creatures Gregory Nyssen saith Wee are taught to worship and adore that nature onely which is uncreated and accordingly Antonius in his Melissa hath set downe the foresaid sentence but the Spanish Inquisitors have commanded that the word Onely should bee blotted out of his writings Now the word Onely is the onely principall word whereupon the whole sentence dependeth In like sort where Athanasius saith that God onely is to bee worshipped that the Creature is not to adore the creature that neither men nor Angels are to be worshipped The popish Index as is already observed in the Preface to this Treatise hath razed these sayings out of his Index or table which yet remaine in the text Epiphanius tels us of some superstitious women that were wont to offer up a Cake to the blessed Virgin and this vanitie hee calleth the womans Heresie because that sexe mostly vsed it but hee reproves them saying Let Mary bee in honour but let the Father and the Sonne and the Holy Ghost bee worshipped let no man worship or adore Mary and indeed hee bends all his force against that point of adoring no lesse then in sixe severall places saying Mariam nemo adoret Now Adoration being condemned it can not bee conceived that adoring her and offering to her they prayed not also to her and required of her somewhat againe All which Epiphanius reprooves Saint Ambrose speaking of our Advocate or Master of Requests saying What is so proper to Christ as to stand by God the Father for an Advocate of the people and elsewhere hee saith Tu solus Domine invocandus es thou Lord onely art to bee invocated and whereas there were some that about this time sued unto Saints and Angels saying Wee have recourse to Angels and Saints with devotion and humilitie that by their Intercâ—ssion God may bee more favourable unto us Saint Ambrose or who evâ—r else was author of those Commentaries upon Saint Pauls Epistles that are framed among his workes
a monster And it may bee some of the well-gifted moderne Doctors may see as farre as some of the ancient Friar Stella though it bee farre from him to condemne the common exposition given by the ancient holy Doctors Yet I know full well saith he that Pygmeis being put upon Gyants shoulders doe see farther than the Gyants themselves Neither doe wee speake this as if wee refused the tryall of Fathers but partly to bring the matter to a shorter issue and partly to give the word of God the foundation on which wee build our faith it 's due for we doe usuallâ— produce the Fathers testimonies thereby to shew our consent with the ancient Church PA. Will you charge the Fathers with errour PRO. The Fathers being but men have erred through oversight and affection Saint Cyprian and a whole Councell with him â—rred in the point of Rebaptization whiles through too much hatred of Heretickes they condemned the Baptisme of Heretickes as unlawfull and would have them baptized anew Origen through too much compassion of the wicked thought that the Devills themselves should bee saved at length Tertullian through spite of the Romane Cleargie revolted to the Montanists and was taken up with their idle Prophecies and revelations Divers of the Fathers were tainted with the errour of the Chiliasts or Millenaries mistaken herein in that they thought that Christians afâ—er the Resurrection should raigne a thousand yeares with Christ upon the earth and there should marry wives beget children eate drinke and live in corporall delights which errour though flatly repugnant to the Scriptures which say that in the Resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriagâ— but are as the Angels in heaven they fell into partâ—y by confâ—unding the first and second Resurrection Revel 20.5 and parâ—ly by taking that carnally which was mystically meant in the Revelations Revel 21.10 and 22.2 Besides the Fathers in the exposition of Scripture doe ofâ—entimes differ each from other as Sixtus Senensis hath observed in his Bibliothecâ lib. 5. PA. Though particular Fathers doe erre in some things yet the body of them is â—ound now we are bound to interpret the Scripture according to the joynt consent of the Fathers PRO. You have forfeited your bond for in the division of the ten coÌ„â—andements to conceale your Idolatry touching Image worship forbidden in the second you goe against the streame of antiquitie the learned Iewes the Fathers Greeke and Latine for though Saint Austin in respect of the mystery of the blessed Trinitie placed three commandements in the first table and seaven in the later yet there be a dozen of the Ancients that divide them as we doe namely the Hebrewes as Philo and Iosespus shew and amongst the Grecians Gregorie Nazianzene Origen Athanasius Chrysostome or whosoever was the Author of the worke unperfit upon Mathew amongst the Latines S. Ambrose S Hierome and one more ancient then they both to wit the Author of the questions of the old and new Testament going under Saint Austins name And for Historianâ— Sulpitius Severus in his sacred Historie and Zonaras in his Annals they be of the same mind where is now your submission to the joynt consent of the Fathers In like sort you hold that the blessed Virgin was free from all spot of Originall sinneâ— and yet the Scripture sayth That in Adam all have sinned Rom. 5.12 and your owne man Melchior Canus produceth seventeene Fathers to the contrary Sancti omnes all the holy Fathers that have mentioned this matter uno ore with one consent affirme the blessed Virgin to have beene conceived in Originall sinne And yet these be the men that crake of the unanimous consent of Fathers that the Fathers are as sure to them as Gregory the thirteenth is a loving Father to his children of the Church The truth is whatsoever they say of the Fathers to dazel the peoples eyes withall they use them as Merchants doe their Counters sometimes standing for pence sometime for pounds even as they be next and readiest at hand to make up their accounts neither are they farther entertained then they favour the keyes and authority of the Church saith Duraeus now by the Church he meanes the Roman Church And Gretsâ—r saith that if the Fathers teach otherwise than the Church namely the Roman Church then they bee not Fathers but step-fathers not Doctours but Seducers Cornelius Mus the Bishop of Bitonto sayth That in points of Faith he giveth more creâ—it to the Pope than to a thousand Austines Hieromes Gregories and yet these be the men that cry up the Fatheâ—s Now if the Fathers make so much for them or they of the Fathers how is it that they corrupt the writings of the true Fathers and devise such sleights to elude their testimonies how is it that they are driven to fly to the bastard treatises of false Fathers going under the name of Abdias Linus Clemens S. Denys and the like Knights of the Poste brought in to depose on their behalfe though others of their owne side have cashiered them as counterfeits for instance sake amongst the Popes decretall Epistles the first of Clemens written as is pretended to Iames the brother of the Lord is vouched by Bellarmine for proofe of the Popes Supremacie as also by the Rhemists to prove that Peter promised Saint Clement that after his departure he would not cease to pray for him and his flocke now this Clement is pretended to be the same that lived in the Apâ—stles times and is mentioned by Saint Paul but it is discovered for a counâ—erfeit for in this Epistle it is said that Peter prayed Clemens to write after his death this Epistle to Iames the brother of the Lord to comfort him and Clemens did so whereas Iames was dead long before Peter about an eight yeares at least now what a sencelesse thing is this to write letters to a dead man specially knowing him to be dead and hereupon Cardinal Cusanus hath cast off this Epistle as counterfeit In deed Turrian the Iesuit striveth to defend this Epistle but yet hee cannot shew by what carryer Clement did send the letters to Saint Iames. And yet must these bee vouched under the reverent names of Saints Abdias Saint Linus Saint Clement Saint Denys beeing not much unlike as one in Budaeus compares some grave pontifician Fathers to antiques in Churches which bow and crouch under vaults and pillars and seeme to beare up the Church as sometime the Pope thought hee saw the Church of Saint Iohn Latterane totter and ready to fall had not Saint Dominick upheld it with his shoulder whereas these doe not beare up the Church but are borne out by the Church and are indeed but puppets PA. Master Wadesworth saith Hee found the Catholickes had farre greater and better armies of evident witnesses than
Gregorie held a Purgatorie for some smaller faults PRO. He held not your Purgatorie his was onely for veniall and light faults yours is for such as have not fully satisfied for the temporall punishment due to their mortall sinnes Againe his differeth from yours in situation for you place yours in some quarter bordering on hell but Gregorie tells us of certaine soules that for their punishment were confined to Bathes and such other places here on earth Besides Gregorie in his Dialogues whence you would prove your Purgatorie tells many strange tales as of one Stephen a Priest who had the Devill so serviceable to him as to draw off his hose of Boniface that wanting money procured divers crownes of our Lady and such like stuffe insomuch that your Canus saith Gregorie in his Dialogues hath published such miracles commonly received and believed which the censurers of this Age will thinke to be doubtfull and uncertaine Besides Gregorie had his Purgatorie and Soule masses from visions and feigned apparitions of Ghosts which the Scripture holds unwarrantable And yet Gregorie upon occasion of that place of Ecclesiastes If the tree fall towards the South or the North where it falls there it shall bee makes another inference namely this The just one in the day of his death falleth South-ward and the sinner North-ward for the just by the warmth of the spirit is carried into blisse but the sinner with the revolting Angel in his benummed heart is reprobated and cast away And Olympiodore who lived about the yeare 500 makes the very same inference and Gregorie elswhere to the same purpose saith that at the time of a mans dissolution either the good or evill spirit recâ—ives the soule as it comes out of the cloyster of the body and there without any change at all for ever retaines it that being onâ—e exalted it can never come to be punished and being plâ—nged into eternall paine can never thence be delivered Now if according to these testimonies after death there be no deliverance but that the soule for ever remaines in that degree and order wherein death takes it if there be no change after this life such as the Papists imagine theirs to be from the paines of Purgatorie to the joyes of heaven surely then there can be no Purgatory nothing but heaven or hel whither they that come abide for ever Now let us see what Gregorie held touching the Supremacie PA. Gregorie maintained his Supremacie did hee not PRO. Whatsoever he did Stapleton strives to uphold it by corrupting a place in Gregorie who speaking of Saint Peter and other Apostles saith that they were all members of the Church under one Head meaning Christ as his owne words make it cleere Now Stapleton to make the Pope Head of the Church citeth the words thus They are all members of the Church under one head Peter shuffling in the name Peter but for Saint Gregorie hee knew not your moderne papall Supremacie and when the See of Constantinople challenged the stile of Vniversall Bishâ—p he opposed it PA. He might dislike it in another and yet claime it himsâ—lfe PRO. He disclaimed it in any whosoever Now so it was Iohn Bishop of Constantinople seeing the Emperors seate translated thither and other Provinces governed by Lievtenants as also Rome besieged by the Lumbards thought this a fit season for the advancement of his chayre that the Imperiall City should also have the highâ—st chayre in the Church as the Emperour counted himselfe Lord of the World so he would be stiled Oecumenicall or Vniversall Patriarke in the Church Now when Iohn affected this Title Gregorie complained not that he wrong'd his See by usurping that stile as if it had belonged to the Pope but hee mislikes the transcâ—â—dent power claymed by that stile and he calls it A stile of noveltie and prophannesse such as never any godly man nor any of his predecessors ever used A name of Blâ—sphemie A thing contrarie to the Churches Canons to Saint Peter and to the holy Gospels Yea he pronounceth any one that should presume to challenge the forâ—said title To be the very forâ—runner of Antichrist because herein hee lifts himselfe above his brethren PA. Gregorie forbore this Title in humilitie thereby to represse Iohns insolencie PRO. This is as if a King should renounce his Royall Title to the end that a Rebell challenging it might disclaime it Gregorie indeed was an humble man and as one saith of him When he was in his Iollitie and Pontificalibus hee was not so much delighted therewith as an Hermit was with his Cat that he used to play withall in his Cell Gregorie indeed professeth to bee humble in mind but still so as to preserve the honour of his place Gregorie would lose nothing of his freehold I warrant you PA. Gregorie found fault with this Title in the sense that Iohn desired so to be universall and sole Bishop and the rest to be his Vicars or Deputies PRO. It is not likely the Bishop of Constantinople though he were a proud man would keepe all others from being bishops that is that they should neither ordaine Priests nor excommunicate nor absolve nor sit in Counsell but himselfe alone doe all Besides if Iohn had sought this surely the Greeke Bishops who consented to Iohns title of being their universall Patriarcke in respect of Order though not of Iurisdiction would never have yeelded to have made themselues onely Vicars to that one bishop and so deprive themselves of al Episcopall Iurisdiction Yea the same bishops though they submitted themselves to the bishop of Constantinople and approved his Title yet notwithstanding they exercised their ancient Iurisdiction over their severall Sees they were not degraded by Iohn or his Successor Cyriacus both which affected that Title The true and undoubted meaning then of Gregorie as his words import was this namely that Gregorie by impugning the Title of Vniversall bishop would have no Bishop so principall as to make all others as members subject to his Head-ship and is not the charge of bishops at this day under the Papacie for the most part Tiâ—ular they being wholly at the Popes becke PA. Was the Title of Vniversall Bishop so odious PRO. It was in that sense which Gregory taxed in the bishop othâ—rwise neither he nor wee mislike such Vniveâ—sall bishops as with Saint Paul Have the care of all Churches and in this respect godly bishops when they meete in Councels and in their owne Diocesses whiles by their wholesome advice admonition or reproofe by their writing or teaching they instruct others in the truth prevent Schisme and stop the mouth of Heresie may be called Bishops of the Vniversall Church Thus was Athanasius called a Bishop of the Catholike Chuâ—ch not as it precisely signifieth Vnivâ—rsall but rightly beleeving or holding the Catholike Faith PA. What conclude you out of all this PRO.
That which maketh strongly against the Papacie For now a daiâ—s this Stile of Vniversall Bishop which Gregorie held to bâ—e the Harbinger of Antichrist is brought in as a maine proofe of the Popes Supremacie Neither could Gregorie restraine his Successors from bearing this Title for Boniface the third who next save one succeeded Gregorie Obtained of Phocas the Emperour not without great contention that the See of Rome should bee callâ—d the head of all Churches being the same place of preheminence in â—ffect which Iohn in Gregories time so much affected Now by this the Reader may perceive and that from the tongue and pen of one of their best Popes that were since his time that in Gregories judgement his successours that enjoy this swelling Title and transcendent power are proved to be Antichristian Bishops Lastly the Reader may observe who it was that gave the Pope this jurisdiction it was even that usurper Phocas who murthered his master Maurice the Emperâ—ur and then confâ—rred this prophane Title on Pope Boniface a fit Chapleine for such a Paâ—ron Hitherto wee have treated of Saint Gregories Faith and visited the Colledge of Bangor the Foundation whereof is ascribed to King Lucius from whose time unto the entraâ—ce of Austine the Monke 438. yeares were â—xpired In all which space the Christian Faith was both taught and imbraced in this Iland notwithstanding the continuall persecutions of the Romans Huns Picts and Sâ—xons which last made such desolation in thâ— outward face of the Church that they drove the Chriâ—â—â—â—n bishops into the Deserts of Cornwaile and Waâ—es in which number were the bishops of London and Yorke Now by their labours the Gospell was replaâ—ted amongst the Inhabitants of those vast Mounâ—taines and farther spread it selfe into these Northerne parts what time as Edwin and Oswald Kings of Northumbeâ—land sent for Saint Aidan and Finan into Scotland to convert their Subjects to the Faith PA. What were this Aidan and Finan PRO. They were the worthy instruments which the Lord raised up for the good of our countrey for by the ministery of Aidan was the kingdome of Northumberland recovered from Paganisme whereunto belonged then beside the shire of Northumberland and the lands beyond it unto Edenborrough Frith Cumberland also and Westmoreland Lancashire Yorkshire and the Bishopricke of Durham And by the meanes of Finan not onely the kingdome of the East-Saxons which contained Essex Middlesex and halfe of Hertfordshire regained but also the large kingdome of Mercia with the shires comprehended under it was first converted unto Christianitie so that these two for their extraordinarie holinesse and painefulnesse in preaching the Gospel were â—xceedingly reverenced by all that knew them Aidan especially Who although hee could not keepe Easter saith Bede contrary to the manner of them which sent him yet hee was carefull diligently to performe the works of Faith Godlinâ—sse and Love after the manner used by all holy men whereupon hee was worthily beloved of all even of them also who thought otherwise of Easter than hee did and was reverenced not onely of the meaner ranke but of the Bishops themselves Honorius of Canterbury and Felix of the East-Angles In this Age also was held the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople summoned by the Emperours commandement it was called against the heresie of the Monothelites and therein Honorius the Pope was accursed for a Monothelite It was theâ—e also decreed that the See of Constantinople should enjâ—â— equall priviledges with the See of Rome And whereas some Canons were alleadged for restraint of Priests marriage they were opposed by this Councel and the Church of Rome is in expresse termes taxed for urging them And upon paine of deposition to the gainsayers it was decreed That the marriage of Ecclesiasticall persons was a thing lawfull and that their conjugall cohabitation stood with the Apostolike Canons was an ancient tradition and orderly constitution And in case continencie were enjoyned it was not perpetuall but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the proper turnes or courses of their ministery so that the restraint of Priests from marrying neither is nor ever was conceived to be saith learned bishop Andrews but Positivi juris which being restrained upon good reason it might upon as good reason be released and Pope Pius the second was of opinion That there was better reason to release them then to restraine them and so were divers other at the Councell of Trent if there had beene faire play and yet Iesuit Coster holds that a Priest offends greatly if he commit fornication Gravius tamen peccat but he offends more grievouslie if he marry PA. This Councel was neither the Sixt nor generall PRO. Caranza and Balsamon call it both sixth and generall We grant indeed that to speake precisely the sixt Synod under Constantine the fourth published no Canons but afterwards divers of the same Fathers which had formerly met in the sixt Synod they and others to the number of 227 being called together by the then penitent and restored Emperour Iusâ—inian gathered up and set forâ—h the Canons formerly made and by them re-enforced and Balsamon saith that Basilius Bishop of Gortyna the Metropolis of Creete which was then under the Arch-bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Ravenna were there to represent the Romaâ—e Church The truth is your Romanists cannot endure tâ—is Gâ—eeke Councel because it sets the Patriarke of Constantinople cheeke by joule with the Romane Bishop In a word if some Canons of this Councel be justly excepted against this makâ—s not against us for wee warrant not all that goes uâ—dâ—r thaâ— Councels name nor them that once spoke truth from ever erring And it seemes Gratian he Monke hath beene a tampering with the Canon alleadged for in one of Gratians Editions we reade thus Let not Constantinople bee magnified as much as Rome in matters Ecclesiasticall and in another Let Constantinople be advanced as well as Rome And now have we surveyed the first sixe generall Councels and found them to have beene called by the Emperour and not by the Pope and yet Bellarmine now a dayes denyes this power to godly Princes and would conferre it on the Pope THE EIGHTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 700. to 800. PAPIST WHat say you to this eighth Age PROTESTANT This Age was beholden to our nation which afforded such worthies as venerable Bede the honour of England and mirrour of his time for learning as also his Scholler Alcuinus counted one of the Founders of the Universitie of Paris and Schoole-master to Charles the Great by whom or his procurement were written thoâ—e Libri Carolini King Charles his bookes opposing the second Nicen Synod which stood for Image worship Now also lived Antonie the Monke and Damascen one that laid the foundation of Schoole-divinitie among the Greekes as Peter Lombard afterward did among the Latines he was indeed a Patron of
with Haymo as indeed his Commentaries on Saint Pauls Epistles are in a manner all taken out of Haymo as Doctor Rivet hath observed It is the report of our Ancestors saith Walafridus Strabo that in the Primitive times they were wont according to Christs Institution to Communicate and partake of the Body and Bloud of our Lord even as many as were prepared and thought fit Regino describeth the manner of Pope Adrians delivering the Communion to King Lotharius and his followers in both kindes The King saith hee takes the Body and Bloud of our Lord at the hands of the Pope and so did the Kings Fallowers Paschasius saith These bee the Sacramentâ— of Christ in the Church Baptisme and Chrysme and the Body and Bloud of Christ and Rabanus hath the selfe same words Now with Baptisme they joyne Chrysme because they used to annoint such as were baptized for otherwise Rabanus speakes precisely of two saying What doe these two Sacraments effect and then hee answers That by the one we are borne anew in Christ and by the other Christ abides in us Of the Eucharist Rabanus saith Bread because it strengthneth the body is therefore called the Body and Wine because it maketh bloud is therefore referred to Christs bloud Haymo saith the same with Rabanus Rabanus farther saith That the Sacrament in one thing and the power thereof another the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the body by the vertue of the Sacrament we attaine â—ternall life Hee saith the Sacrament which is the Bread is turned into our bodily nourishment nâ—w spâ—cies shewes and accidents can not nourish but these latter words of Rabanus are razâ—d â—ut whereas the Monke of Malmesbury witnesses that Rabanus wrote accordingly as is alleaged and this razure is observed by the publisher of Mathew of Westminsters Historie Haymo calls the Eucharist A Memoriall of that Gift or Legacie which Christ dimised unto us at his Death Rabanus saith that Christ at first instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Bloud with blessing and thanksgiving and delivered it to his Apostles and they to their Successors to doe accordingly and that now the whole Church throughout the world observes this manner Christianus Druthmarus reporting our Saviours Act at his last Supper sayth Christ changed the bread into his body and the wine into his bloud Spiritually he speaks not of any change of substances Walafridus Strabo saith That Châ—ist delivered to his Disciples the Sacraments of his body and bloud in panis vini substantiâ in the substance â—f bread and Wine When Carolus Calvus the Emperour desired to compose some diffeâ—ences about the Sacrament then on â—oot he râ—quired Bertram a learned man of that Age tâ— deliver hâ—s jâ—dgement in that poynt Whether the body and bloud of Christ which in the Church is received by the mouth oâ— tâ—â— faithful be celebrated in a mystery or in the truth anâ— whether it be the same body which was borne of Mary Whereunto hâ— returnes this answer That the bread and the wine aâ—e tâ—â— body and bloud of Christ figuratively that This body is tâ—e pledge and the â—igure the other the very naturall bodie That for the substance of the Creatures that which they were before consecration the same are they also afterward That they are called the Lords body and bloud because they take the name of that thing of which thâ—y are a Sacrament That there is a great difference betwixt the mystery of the bloud and body of Christ which is taken now by the faithfull in the Church and that which was borne of the Virgin Mary All which he proves at large by Scriptures and Fathers Your wisedome most excellent Prince may perceive saith he that I have proved by the testimonies of holy Scriptures and Fathers that the bread which is called Christs body and the Cup that is called his bloud is a figure because it is a mysterie PA. I except against Bertram his booke is forbid to be read but by such as are licenced or purpose to conâ—ute him PRO. Bertram wrote of the body and bloud of Chrâ—st as Trithemius saith and by your Belgicke or Lâ—w Countrey Index Bertram is stiled Catholicke Now this Index was published by the King of Spaines commandment the Duke of Alva and first printed at Antwerp in the yeare 1571 and often since reprinted Now so it is howsoever he be accounted a Catholicke Priest and much commended by Trithemius yet are this Catholicks writings forbid to be read as appeares by severall Indices the one set forth by the Deputies of the Trent Councel and another printed at Parts under Clement the eight Now these Inquisitors dealt too roughly and therefore the divines of Doway perceiving that the â—orbidding of the booke kept not men from reading it but rather oâ—casioned them to seeke after it thought iâ— better policie that Bertram should be suffered to goe abroad but with his keeper to wit some popish glosse to wait on him Seeing therefore say they we beare with many errours in other old Catholicke writers and extenuate them excuse them by inventing some device oftentimes deny them and â—aine some commodious sense for them when they are objected in disputation with our adversaries we doe not see why Bertram may not deserve the same equitie and diligent revisall lesâ— the Herâ—ticks cry out that we burne and forbid such antiquity as maketh for them and accordingly they have dealt wiâ—h Bertram for by their Recognition We must reade Invisibiliter in stead of Visibiliter and these words The Substance of the Creatures must be expounded to signifie outward shewes or Accidents But this will not serve the turne for Bertram speaking of the consecâ—ated bâ—ead and wine saith that for the substance of the creatures they remaine the same after consecration that they were before Now if they doe so then is not the substance of bâ—ead and wine changed into the substance of the flesh and bloud of Christ as the Trent Councel would have it Nor will it serve to say that by the substance of the Creatures is meant the outward accidents as the whitenesse of the bread the colour of the wine or the like for Bertram speakes properly that the consecrated bread and wine remaine the same in substance And it were an improper speech to attribute the word Substance to Accidents as to say the substance of the colour or rednesse of the wine or the like PA. Master Brerely suspects that this booke was lately set forth by Oâ—colampadius under Bertrams name PRO. This suspicion is cleered by the antient Manuscript copies of Bertram extant before Occolampadius was borne one whereof that great Scholler Causabon saw in the Librarie of Master Iames Gilot a Burgesse of Paris as he witnessed to the Reverend and learned Primate Doctor Vsher. And yet besides these Mâ—nuscripts Bertram
it was onely pro hic nunc as their case then stood they were now both pastours and people thrust out of their owne Country and goods and glad to live upon others benevolence and collections which haply made them call them The poore men of Lions Howsoever they were so farre from liking the course of the begging Friers or vowing of voluntary poverty as that they held the order of begging Friersâ— to be the Divels invention and Monkish vowes to bee vaine as occasioning foule and fearefull lusts If they sayd that all Ministers must be equall they meant in Orders but not in Iurisdiction for they allowed Deacons Presbyters and Bishops as Guido Carmelita observes Object They held that Masse is to be sayd once onely every yeare to wit upon Maundy Thursday when the Sacrament was instituted and the Apostles made Priests For that Christ sayd Doe this in remembrance of me to wit say they that which he did at the time Luke 22. 1 Cor. 11. Parsons ibid. Answere Parsons pretâ—nds to bring no Articles but such as all Authours charge the Waldenses withall and yet brings this which no Authour imputes to them but onely Guido Carmelita and Alphonsus de Castro wonders where Guido found it Aeneas Sylius mentions it not but contrarily saith they hold that the Priest may consecrate in any place and at any time and minister to them that require it Object They held that the words of Consecration must be no other but onely the Pater Noster seaven times said over the bread Parsons ibid. Answer Alponsus de Castro saith It is possible that the Waldenses might have had this fancie but not probable for onely Guido Carmelita saith it but Aeneas Sylvius a farre more diligent man and of better judâ—ement mentions it not neither Antoninus nor Bernard of Lutzenburg though they all proâ—essedly reckon up their errors but rather they say the contrary that the Waldenses held that the Priest might consecrate in every place and time and minister to them that desire it and suâ—ficere ut verba Sacramentalia tantùm dicat that it was sufficient to speake the Sacramentall words onely Object Prateolus saith that the Albingenses held with the Manichees that there were two prime beginnings or Authors of things that is one good God the Creator of good and one bad that is the Divel the creator of evill and that they denyed the resurrection and thought there was no Hell Answere Fryer Reyner their inquisitour saith they beleeved all the Articles contained in the Creede And for the other imputation he that shall but reade the confession of their faith tendred to Ladislaus King of Hungary and extant in Orthinus Gratius will easily cleare them thereof This cavil is thought to be grounded upon that assertion of the Waldenses that the Pope had no authoritie over the Kings and Princes of the earth who depend immediately upon God alone and from hence they tooke occasion to call them Manichees as appointing two prime or cheef originalls Iurisdictions and it may seeme to be taken out of the extravagants of Pope Boniface the eight who subjecting the authority of Emperours saith of his owne Whosoever resists this power resists the ordinance of God unlesse with the Manichee he devise duâ— principia two prime originalls of things Now against this imputation the Waldenses professe that they beleeve that the holy Trinity hath created all things visible and invisible and that he is Lord of things celestiall terrestriall and infernall as it is sayd it Saint Iohn All things were made by him and without him nothing is made Besides it might bee that the Manichees some of them living amongst the Waldenses such as spited the Waldenses by one common terme nick-named them and called them Manichâ—eâ—s and Catharists as sometimes the Donatists and called the Christians and Catholikes Caecilianists By this that hath beene sayd it appeares that there is not any such oddes betweene the Waldenses and us as Parsons and Prateolus have given out but that for substance of Religion they agree with us and accordingly Orthuinus Gratius saith of the confession of the Waldensian faith presented to the King of Hungary that in some points it little differeth from that which is delivered by others he meaneth our Protestant proâ—essours so as they may see me to have received it from them and Le Sieur la Popeli nere in his history of France speakes more fully namely that the Waldenses and Albigenses about the yeare 1100 and the succeeding times spread their doctrine parum differentem litle differing from that which the Protestants now embrace Object It seemeth you sticke close to the Waldenses and yet your Iewell casts them off saying they are none of ours Answere The passage in B. Iewell is this Master Harding saith that Hus Hierome of Prage Wickleffe Almarick Abailard the Apostolikes Petrobrussians Berengarians Waldenses Albingenses Image-breakes and such like ever found fault with the Church in their time Whereunto B. Iewell replyeth in these termes of Abailard and Almarick and certaine other your strange names if they have taught any thing contrary to the truth of God we have no skill they are none of ours of Iohn Hus Hierome of Prague and Berengarus and other like vertuous learned men we have no cause to be ashamed their doctrine standeth still and increaseth dayly because it is of God And elsewhere he saith As for Iohn Wickleffe Iohn Husse Valdo and the rest for ought we know and I beleeve setting malice aside for ought you know they were godly men their greatest heresie was this that they complained of the dissolute lives of the Clergie of worshipping of Images of the tyrannicall pride of the Pope of Pardons pilgrimages and purgatory and that they wished a reformation of the Church we succeede not them nor beare their names we succeede him whose word we professe By this it appeares what Bishop Iewell thought of Waldâ— and others and if he had cast off the Waldenses as none of ours it might be imputed to this that he beheld them as their persecutors painted them out with spots of Manicheisme and other vile errours PAP If the Waldenses were free from such errours as Parsons and others have taxed them withall how came it to passe that such grosse opinions were fathered on them PROT. You say well they be fathered on them even as sometime a light housewife layes her burthen at an honest mans doore but themselves never begat such strange opinions for the Waldenses in their confessions say That they were nothing at all guilty of those things that were layd to their charge That worthy Historian Thuanus reckons up their opinions and then addeth To these certaine and chiefe heads of their doctrine alia afficta others others were fained and devised concerning marriage Resurrection the state of soules after death and of meates Bernard de Girard Lord of Haillan
saying of Ernestus Arch-bishop of Magdeburg lying on his death-bed some five yeares befoâ—e Luther shewed himselfe It is witnessed by Clement Schaâ— Chaplaine to the said Arch-bishop and one who was present at his death that a Frier Minor used this speech to the Archbishop Take a good heart most worthy Prince wee communicate to your excellencie all the good workes not onely of our selves but our whole order of Frier Minors and therefore doubt not but you receiving them shall appeare before the tribunall Seate of God righteous and blessed Whereunto the Arch-bishop replyed By no meanes will I trust upon my owne workes or yours but the workes of Christ Iesus alone shall suffice upon them will I repose my selfe THE SIXTEENTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 1500. to 1600. Of Martin Luther PAPIST WHat say you of this sixteenth Age PROTESTANT We are now by Gods assistance come to the period of time which was agreed upon in the beginning of our conference to wit to the dayes of Martin Luther for about the yeare of Grace 1517 hee beganne to teach and Preach against Indulgences And withall I have produced a Catalogue of our professours unto this present sixteenth Centurie PA. Stay your selfe you must saith Master Brerely show us your professours during the twentie yeares next before Luther PRO. It is done already for besides our English Martyrs we have produced Trithemius the Abbot and Savonarola both which lived within the time mentioned and held with us the Article of free Iustification and Savonarola howsoever the matter be otherwise coloured was burnt for Religion in the yeare 1498. Besides there have beene in all Ages and in the time mentioned such as held the substantiall Articles of our Religion both in the Roman and Greeke Church and by name the Grecians in common with us have openly denyed the Popes Supremacie Purgatorie private Masses Sacrifices for the dead and defended the lawfulnesse of Priests marriage Likewise in this Westerne part of the world the Schollers of Wickliffe called Lollards in England the Taboâ—ites in Bohemia and Waldenses in France maintained the same doctrine in substance with our moderne Protestants as appeareth by a Confession of the Waldensian Faith set forth about the yeare of Grace 1508 which was within the time prefixed Neither did these whom we have produced dissemble their Religion but made open profession thereof by their Writings Confessions and Martyrdomes as also their just Apologies are extant to cleere them from the Adversaries imputation PA. I thought Luther had beene the first founder of your Religion for there bee some of your men who call him the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine PRO. Luther broached not a new Religion he onely drained and refined it from the Lees and dregs of superstition he did not forme or found a new Church which was not in being but onely reformed and purged that which he found from the soilâ— of errours and disorders When Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiah's time found out the booke of God he was thereby a meanes to bring to light what the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a season smothered and so did Luther he was the instrument whom God used for the farther enlightning his Church and yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion than upon the former that Hiâ—kiah first preached the Law The Protestants Church by Luthers meanes began no otherwise in Germanie than health begins to be in a body that was formerly sicke and overcharged and now recovered So that in respect of doctrine necessary to salvation the Church in her Firme members as Saint Austine speakes was the same before Luther and afterwards and it began to be by his meanes onely according to a greaâ—er measure of knowledge and freedome from such corruptions as formerly like ill humours oppressed it and oveâ—charged it The Proâ—estants Church then is the same with all good and sound Christians that lived before them and succeedeth the sound members of the visible Chuâ—ch that kept the life of true Religion in the substantiall matters of Faith and Godlinesse though otherwise those times were daâ—kened with a thicke mist of errours Now whereas some call Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine they did not therâ—by intend that he was the fiâ—st that ever preached the dâ—ctrine of the râ—formed Churches for they could not be ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers of the first five Ages Bertram and Aâ—lfricke and Berenger Peter Bruis and Henry of Tholouse Dulcinus and Anâ—ldus and Lollardus Wickliffe Husse Hierome of Pragâ—e and others stood for the same truth which we professe but their meaning was that Luther was the first who in their Age and memorie publickly and succesfully set on foot a generall reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts And thus in a tollerable sense Luther may bee called the first Apostle of the Reformation though not simply the first that preached the Protestants doctrine Americus Vesputius is reported to have discovered the West Indies or America and withall beares the name thereof and yet Christopher Columbus discovered it before him Bishop Iewell saith that in Luthers dayes in the midst of the darknesse of that Age there first began to shine some glimmeâ—ing beame of truth his meaning is not that the truth was then first revealed but that by Luthers mâ—anes it was manifested in a fuller measure and degree of lâ—ght and knowledge than it was in the fâ—rmer and daâ—ker times of Poperie yea he giveth pâ—rticular instance of true professours that were before Luther namely Saint Hilarie Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugduno the â—ishops of Greece and Asia as also Valla Marsilius Petrarch Savonarola and others PA. Did Luther himselfe acknowledge he had any predecessors or fore-runners PRO. I answer with my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly that Luther acknowledged the Waldenses termâ—d fratres Pigardi as appeares by his Preface before the Waldension Confession I found saith hee in these men a miracle almost unheard of in the Popish Church to wit that these men leaving the doctrines of men to the utmost of their endeavour meditated in the Law of God day and night and were very ready and skilfull in the Scriptures whereas in the Papacie the greatest Clerkes uâ—terly neglected the Scriptures I could not but congratulate both them and us that wee were together brought into one sheepfold Of Iohn Husse and Hiâ—rome of Prague he saith They burned Iohn Husse and Hierome both Catholike men they being themselves Heretikes and Apostates and in his third Preface hee saith hee hath heard from men of credit that Maximilian the Emperour was wont to say of Iohn Husse Alas alas they did that good man wrong And Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth That Husse indeed was condemned and burned but not convicted PA. To
what Church did Luther joyne himselfe and why left hee the Roman Church PRO. Hee joyned himselfe in point of faith to the ancient Primitive and Apostolicke Church that went before him and for his present Communion to that sound part of the Roman Church which then with him hated the corruptions which the Romish faction for the maintenance of their pompe and profit had upheld In particular hee joyned himselfe to those honourable personages the Dukes of Saxony and Wittenberge and the Earle of Mansfield and to such Châ—istian congregations as within their territories began to abandon Poperie and reforme themselves He received Ordination in the Church of Rome this ordination for substance was good and by vertue thereof hee preached tâ—e word and brought the people to see and detest not the Church of Rome but her corruptions from whence hee severed himselfe to wit from the Roman Court and faction therein so that hee leapt not out of the Church hee kept himselfe still within the barne-floore thereof onely he leapt out of the huske of popish errours Now this his separation and ours from errour â—s warranted by Gods word since Gods people are commanded and that upon a grievous penalty to depart out of Babylon and spirituaâ—l Sodome and this we â—ake to be Rome since your owne Iesuites that have commented on the Revelation call Rome Babylon and that this is to be understood not onely of heathâ—n Rome but of Rome Christian after that it had forsaken heaâ—henisme and had received the faith of Christ and turned againe from that unto Antichristianisme PA. If any Protestant Church were in being before or at Luthers appearing then would they upon his preaching have acknowledgâ—d him and joyned themsâ—lves to him but as Bellâ—rmine saâ—th they did not PRO. Alphoâ—sus de Casiro saith Neither did Luther in this age come â—orth alone but accompanied with a grâ—at troope as with a Guard waiting for Lâ—tâ—er as for tâ—eir Captaine and Leader such were Philip Melanchton Conradus Pâ—llicanâ—s â—ambert Fabricius Capito â—siâ—â—der Stuâ—mius aâ—d Maâ—tin Bucer and thâ—se saith he seemed to have â—xpectâ—d him bâ—fore hee came and upon his comming dâ—lclâ—aâ—e unto him so that hee wanted noâ— such as gave him the right hands of fellowship Galat. 2.9 Carolus Miâ—titius being sent from Pope Leo to Frederike professed That all the way as he came having sâ—undâ—d mâ—ns affâ—ctions hee found three to favour Luthâ—r for one that favoured the Pope And Lutâ—er professeth that the applause of the world did much support him most men being weary of the frauds and wicked pâ—actices of the Romanists Neither are these penurious examples to give instance in Melanchton Pellican Bucer and others as Brereley scornefully calleth iâ— for they were as great schollâ—rs as that age affâ—â—ded Pâ—llican was one who made great helpe for râ—viving tâ—e Hebrew tongue and was Luthers ancient and so was Ioâ—n Capnio or Reuchlin who brought Greeke and Hebrew into Germany Now bâ—sides his câ—evals and contemporaries the Waldâ—nâ—es as also Iohn Hâ—sse bare a torch before Luther and shâ—wed him his way PA. Master Brereley saith That Melanchton Pâ—lican and Bucer were originally Catholikes and followed Luthers example in revolting from the Catholike Church PRO. Saint Paul was originally a Pharisee and yet hee did well to forsake the leaven of their traditions and embrace the doctrine of the Gospell And so did Saint Austin the errour of the Manichees and Pelagians and embraced the truth of the Gospell Besides they left not the Catholike but the Roman Church nor that altogether but the faction that was therein to wit the papacie PA. Schlusselburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther PRO. Schlusselburgs words are these Vtenhovius writes impudently that he heard Pellican affirme that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospel before Luther appeaâ—ed and that Pellican himselfe impugned the popish purgatory before the name of Luther was heard of Now why may wee not beleeve Vtenhovius and Pellican affirmâ—ng the same and being honest men as well as Schlusselburg denying it Besides admit there were not any in Germany yet there might be elsewhere many thousands as in Bohemia France and England and other parts who bâ—fore Luthers time embraced the doctrine of the Gospell PA. Master Brereley saith out of Luthers workes that upon a conference had with the Devill Luther gave over the Masse and changed his Religion PRO. Suppose this Conference were extant in all the Dutch copies of Luthers workes which yet some make doubt of yet might this conference bee onely imaginary even a strong spirituall 〈◊〉 and not â—ny personall or reall conference now from such a spiâ—ituall conflict dreame or appâ—â—ition you cannot draw any sound proofe But supposing the truth of this conference had not Christ a conâ—â—â—â—nce with Sathan and Saint Bernarâ— a combat with him is theiâ— religion ere a whit â—he worse to be liked Your Romish Saints were very familiar with the Devill Saint Oswald wrestled with him Saint Dunstane tooke him by the nose Christopher in the Legend is said to have served the Devill and Saint Xavier was usually vexed with him after Dinner Supper Recreation and saying of Masse insomuch as the Devill oft times put him into a cold sweat as Hâ—ssenmullerus reporteth of him from Turrian the Iesuite PA. The Devill brought arguments against saying of Masse and disputed against it therefore the Masse is good or else the Devill would not have found fault with it PRO. This followeth not for every thing the Devill mislikes is not therefore good neither is all he moves one unto therefore bad For instance sake he came in the habit of Saint Vrsula and moved one to enter into the Order of Nunnes will you say therefore veiling of Nunnes is bad PA. Luther used the selfe-same arguments against the Masse which Satan did now how could they bee good proofes that were brought in by Satan or why would Luther beleeve him PRO. Luther shewes onely how Satan tempted hâ—m to despaire for that he had beene a Masse-monger which Luther knew to be naught without the Devils prompting Besides all that the Devill speakes is not devillish the Devils that possessed the men confessed and sayd Thou art Christ the Sonne of the living God afterwards they entred into the Heard of Swine now the Heardmen they came into the Citty and told what was done and sayd now what though the Hâ—ard-men told how the Devils confessed this Article of the Christian Faith That Christ was the Sonne of the living God was not this a true confession though the Heard-men had fiâ—st heard it from the Devils and likewise reported it from them Luther heard such and such arguments against the Masse might not those arguments be true though Luther heaâ—d them from Satan Gods Ape It is true indeed that the Devill in telling truth
but only cast downe some encroachments and improvements of poperie wee have no more erâ—cted a new faith in respect of the substance and essentials thereof than that zealous reformer Iosia built a new materiall Temple when hee cast out the Idols and Idolatrous worship out of the Lords house There is no other difference betwixt the Reformed and the Romish Church then betwixt a field well weeded and the same field formeâ—ly overgrowne with weeds or betwixt a heape of corne now well winnowed and the same heape lately mixed with chaffe And if it be a vaine and frivolous thing to say it is not the same field or the same corne as vaine and frivolous is it to say the Church is not the same it was or in the same place after it is swept and cleansed of the filth and dust or to say the Churches of Corinth and Galatia after their reformation occasioned by Saint Pauls writing were new Churches and not the same they were before because that in them before the Resurrection was denied Circumcision practisâ—d discipline neglected and Châ—isâ—s Apostles contemned which things now are not found in them or to say Naaman was not still the same person because before hee was a Leper and now is cleansed PA. If our Romane Church were so corrupt whence then had you the truth what you had you received from us PRO. Saint Austine saith that the Iewes were to the Christians Library-keepers of the bookes of the Law and the Prophets and might not the Romanists performe the like office to the Protestants The Iewish Church what time it was unsound preserved the Scriptureâ—Canon and by transcribingâ— and reading the same delivered the whole text therof trâ—ly to others And thus the Roman Church though in many things unsound preserved the bookes of holy Scripture and taught the Apostles Câ—eed with sundry parts of divine truth gathered from the same and by these principles of Christianitie preserved in that Church judicious and godly men might with study and diligence finde out what was the first delivered Christian doctâ—ine in such things as were necessary to salvation And herein was Gods gracious providence sâ—ene that even that Church wherein Luther himselfe received his Christianitie Ordination and power of Ministerie should for the benefit of Gods children preserve the Word and Sacraments and deliver them over to us though somewhat corruptly by their adding more Sacraments than ever Christ ordained and abusing those which we retaine with divers unwarrantable rites and Ceremonies In a word we received from you some truth mingled with errour wee have pared away your corruption as a worme out of an Apple and retained the wholsome and substantiall truth PA. Was there any Chucrh in being save our Roman Catholick in thâ— Ages next before Luther if so show uâ— where it was and with whom it held Communion PRO. When Christ came first into the World the Iewish Church was corrupted both in doctrine and manners this Church had in it Scribes and Pharisees as well as Zachary and Elizabeth Ioseph and Mary Simeon and Anna with others these were all of the same outward Communion with the Priesthood for they resorted to the Temple there they prayed and performed such holy rites as God himselfe enjoyned untill they heard farther of the Gospel by Christs manifestation Now I demand were not Ioseph and Mary and such good people â—ound members of Gods Church although the Scribes and Pharisees bore all the sway in the Church and had the Priesthood the word and Sacraments in their dispensing yet even then God had a Remnant of holy people which made up his Church though others went under the name thereof and exceeded them in number Now with these the sound part kept an outward Communion yet did not partake in all their erronious doctrines but condemned their grosser errours In like sort we were all of one outward Communion of one Church wherin salvation was and yet we shared not in those errours which a faction in the Church like the Pharisees of old maintained For as learned Dr. Field saith The errours which wee condemne at this day whereupon the difference groweth betweene us and the Romish faction were never generally received nor constantly delivered as the doctrines of the Church but doubtfully disputed and proposed as the opinions of some men in the Church not as the resolved determinations of the whole Church For had they beene the undoubted doctrines and determinations of the Church all men would have holden them entirely and constantly as they held the doctriâ—e of the Trinity and other Articles of the Faith And I have already showne from age to age that the errours condemned by us never found generall allowance and constant consent in the dayes of our fathers but that some worthy guides of Gods Church ever opposed them And thus was our Church preserved under the Papacie as wheaâ—e is among tares for wee were formerly mingled together like corne and chaffe in one heape until the time of Reformation came and winnowed our wheat from the chaffe of Poperie So that howsoever divers under the Papacie not brooknig Reformation maintained sundry erronious opinions Yet there were other worthies who living within that Communitie were not equally poysoned with errour but firmely beleeved all fundamentall truth and delivered the maine Articles of Christianitie over unto others For Answer then to the Question Where had our Church her being in the Ages next before Luther we say It was both within the Romane Church and without it For as learned Doctor Chaloner saith Our Church had in those dayes a twofold Subsisâ—encie â—he one Separate from the Church of Rome the other Mixt and conjoyneâ— with it Separate so it was in the Albâ—genses and Waldenses a peâ—ple whoâ— so soone as the Chuâ—ch of Rome had inteâ—preted her selfe touching sundry of those maine poynts of dâ—ffâ—rence betweene us and that a man could no lâ—nger Communicate with her in the publicke worship of God by reâ—son of soâ—e Idolatrous rites and customes which shâ— had establishâ—dâ— arose in France Savâ—y and the places neere adjoyning and professed the same substantiall Negatives and Affirmatives which we doe in a state Sepaâ—atâ— from the Church of Rome having Pastours and Congregations apart to themselves even unto this day From these descended the Wicklefisâ—s in England and the Hussites in Germanie and oâ—hers in other Countries who Maâ—gre the â—urie of fire and Sword maintained the same doctrine as they did The state of the Church mixt and conjoyned with the Church of Rome it selfe consisted of those who making no visible separation from the Roman profession as not perceiving the mysterie of iniquity which wrought in it did yet mislike the grosser errours and desired a Reformation To answer then the quâ—stion directly where was the Prâ—testants Church before Luthers time that is where was any Church in the world that taught that doctrine which the Protestants now teach â—
lesse moment and danger such as blemished indeed but tooke not away the Churches being and that they held the true foundation of Religion that is Iustification and Salvation by Iesus Christ his merits onely God dealing graciously with our fore-fathers in that this point was ordinarily taught in their bookes of Visitation and Consolation of the sicke In this respect wee hope that divers both formerly and in our dayes who live Papists die Protestants for howsoever in their life time they talke of Workes Merits and Satisfaction to God yet on their death-bed divers of them find little comfort in Crosses and Crucifixes Pictures and Popes pardons in Agnus Dei's blessed Gâ—aines Reliques and the like then they renounce all meere humane satisfaction merit and workes and breath out their last breath in the Protestant language of that holy Martyr Master Lambert who lift up his hands such hands as he had and his fingers ends flaming with fire and cried out to the people in these words None but Christ none but Christ. The example of Stephen Garâ—iner Bishop of Winchester is notable to this purpose when the Bishop lay sicke on his death-bed and Doctor Day Bishop of Chichester comming to visit him began to comfort him repeating to him such places of Scripture as did expresse or import the free justification of a repentant sinner in the blood of Christ hereunto Winchester replyed What my Lord quoth he will you open that gap now then farewâ—ll altogether you may tell this to such as me and others in my case but open once this window to the people and then farewell altogether Laâ—tly we are not simply and in euery thing to follow our Ancestors it was the argument of Simmachus the heathen Our religion which hath continued so long is to bee retained and our Ancestors to be followed by us who happily traced their fore fathers but the Loâ—d saith Walke yee not in the ordinances of your fore-fathers neither after their manners nor defile your sâ—lves with their Idols I am the Lord your God walke yee in my statuâ—es and keepe them and not after your vaine conversation which yee have received by the tradition of the Fathers as Saint Peter speakes Object If you hope so well of our fore-fathers why hope you not so well of us their children Answer The parties are not alike besides there is great difference of the times then and now the former were times of ignorance these are the dayes wherein light is come into the world in what they erred they erred ignorantly following the conduct of their guides doing as they taught them and so were mislead as Saint Austine saith Errantes ab errantibus by their blind guides but upon better information wee presume they would have reformed their errours Now he is more to bee pitied who stumbleth in the darke than in the day-light men are now admonished of their erâ—rours offer is made to them to be better instructed so that their censure will bee heavier if either they dote on their owne opinions unwilling to bee instructed in the reveled truth or after sufficient knowlâ—dge and conviction for some worldly respects they wilfully and obstinatly persist in their old errors and which is farre worse hate and persecute the maintainers of the truth Saint Cyprian saith If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance of simplicity hath noâ— observed and held that which our Lord hath taught us by his word and example by the Lords mercy pardon might bee granted to his simplicitie but to us that are now admonished and instructed of the Lord pardon cannot bee granted Saint Augustine puts a difference betwixt Heretikes and them that beleeve Heretikes and he saith farther They that defend an opinion false and perverse without pertinacious selfe-mindednesse especially which not the boldnâ—sse of their owne presumption hath begotten but which from their seduced and erronious Parents they have received and themselves doe seeke the truth with care and diligence ready to amend their errour when they find the truth they are in no wise to bee reckoned among Heretikes this was the case of our Fathers under the Papacie In a word our Fathers they lived in those errours of ignorance not of obstinacie and knew not the dangerous consequence of them such men by particular repenâ—ance of sinnes knowne and generall repentance of unknowne might by Gods mercie be saved Object If holding the foundation will serve as you seeme to say in the case of our fore-fathers then we may safely obtaine salvation in the Church of Rome Answer This followeth not for the Church of Rome buildeth many things which by consequent destroy the foundation Rome doth both hold the foundation and destroy it she holds it directly destroyes it by consequent As the Galathians held the foundation to wit salvation by Iesus Christ and yet withall held a necessity of joyning Circumcision with Christ which doctrine by consequence destroyed the very foundation for so Saint Paul wrote unto them Galat. 5.2.4 If they were circumcised Christ profited them nothing hâ—e became of none effect unto them they were fallen from gracâ— In like sort Poperie opposeth the Faith not directly but obliquely not formally but virtually not in expresse termes but by consequence Poperie overthrowes the foundation by consequence whiles it brings on so many stories of unsound adjections and corrupt super-additions upon the ancient ground-sole of Religion as are like to â—ndanger the whole frame The learned and acute Doctor Doctor Hall now Lord Bishop of Exceter gives severall instances hereof Poperie overthroweth the truth of our Iustification whiles it ascribes it to our owne works the All-sufficiencie of Christs owne Sacrifice whiles they reiterate it daily by the hands of a Priest Of his Satisfaction while thâ—y hold a payment of our utmost farthings in a devised Purgatorie Of his Mediation while they implore others to ayde them not onely by their Intercession but their Merits suing not onely for their prayers but their gifts the value of the Scriptures whiles they hold them unsufficient obscure in points essâ—ntiall to salvation and bind them to an uncertaine dâ—pendance upon the Church Now for the simpler sort whilâ—s in truth of heart they hold the maine principles which they know doubtlâ—sse the mercy of God may passe over their ignorant weakenesse in what they cannot know For the other I feare not to say that many of their errours are wilfull The light of truth hath shined out of heaven to them and they loved darkenesse more than lighâ— Thus farre that learned â—ishop PA. The Protestants at â—ast many of them conâ—â—sse there may be salvation in our Church we absolutely deny thereâ—s salvâ—tion in theirs therefore it is safâ—r to come to ours than to sâ—ay in theirs to be where almost all grant salvation than where the greater part of the world deny it PRO. This point is fully cleered by the judicious Author of the Answer to
Fishers Relation of his third Conferâ—nce Vpon this very point saith hâ—e that we acknowlâ—dge An honest ignorant Papist may be saved they worke upon the advantage of our Charitie and their owne want oâ— it to abuse the weake but if they would speak truly and say many Protestants indeed conâ—esse there is salvation possible to bee attained in the Romane Church but yet the errours of that Câ—uâ—ch aâ—e so many and some such as weaken the foundation that it is very hard to goe that way to heaven especially to them that have had the truth manifested unto them the heart of this Argument were broken The force of this Argument lyes herein that wee and ouâ— advâ—rsaries consent that there is salvation to some in the Romane Church What would you have us an malicious at least as rash as your selves are to us and denye you so much as possibilitie of salvation if we should we might make you in some things straine for a proofe But we have not so learned Christ as either to returne evill for evill in this hâ—adie course or to deny salvation to some ignorant silly Soules who hold the foundation Christ Iesus and survey not the building But this was an old tricke of the Donaâ—ists who shut up the Church in Africke as they doe now in Rome and the Romane See For in the point of Baptisme Whether that Sacrament was true in the Catholicke Church or in the part of Donatus they exhorted all to bee Baptized among them Why Because both parts granted that Baptisme was true among the Donatists which that peevish sect most unjustly denied the sound part as Saint Austine delivers it I would aske now had not the Orthodoxe Bapâ—isme among them because the Donatists denyed it injuriously or should the Orthodoxe against truth hâ—ve denied Baptisme among the Donatists to cry quiâ—tance with them Besides what have they gained by some Protesâ—ants confession saying thaâ— some might be saved in the Romane Church this terme Might be Saved grâ—nts but a Possibilitie to some weâ—ke ones no sure or safe way to salvaâ—ion For a safe way they can hardly goe who pertinaciously adhere to their errours having sufficient meanes to be betâ—er informed Howsoever their reckonâ—ng is like to bee â—he heavier who for some by-respects oppose a knowâ—e truth which they either doe or might beleeve if their hearts were upright and not perversly obstinate and not onely so but draw other weâ—ke ones to their bent Saint Augustine saith There will be ever a difference betweene an Hereticke and a plaine well meaning man thâ—t is mis-led and bâ—leeves an Hereticke God pittieth the blind that would faine see and cannot but wiâ—l he pitty them that may see and will not that harden themselves in their affected wilfull blindnesse he delivered Ionas from dâ—owning in the bottome of the Sea will you plung your selves therefore to see if God will deliver you Because we grant saith that most learned Prelate Doctor Vsher that some may scape death in Cities and Streets inâ—ected with the Plaguâ— will you therefore be so foole hardy after warning givâ—â— of the present danger as to chuse to take up your lodging in a Pest-house if you doe we may well say in our Câ—arity Lord have mâ—rcie upon you but you may justly feare that you dangerously tempt the Lord to send you Strong delusion to beleeve a lye bâ—cause you received not the love of the truth to beleeve it Lâ—stly if we grant you a possibility of salvation and you deny the same to us which yet is not yours to give or to withhold â—hâ—s sheweâ—h not thaâ— you have moâ—e truth on your side than wee but rather that wee have more charity than you who without truth or modesty aâ— our learned Provâ—st of Queenes Colledge in Oxford hath showne in his Answer to Charity mistaken dare afâ—â—rme that Protestancie destrâ—yeth salvation Bâ—â— lâ—t nâ—t the Protestant bâ—e discouraged with this hâ—â—dy censure for wee are confident that the faith pâ—oâ—essed in the Church of England is the Catholike Oâ—thâ—doxe and saving â—aith and we can shew good â—eason â—oâ— it For to bâ—leeve the Scripture of the two Tâ—staments to bâ—lâ—â—ve the thâ—ee Câ—eeds in the sense of the ancient Pâ—â—â—itive Chuâ—ch to receive the foure great generall Counâ—â—ls so mâ—â—h magnified by antiquity to admit What ever the Fathers for the first five hundred yeares with joynt consent agreed upon to bee beleâ—ved as a necessary point 〈◊〉 salvation or at least-wise to bee humbly silent not presuming to condemne the same is a faith in which to live and die cannot but give salvation specially being accompaâ—ied with a godly life and a faithfull death Now whether it bee wisedome in such a point as Salvation is to forsâ—ke a Church in the which the gâ—ouâ—d of salvation is fâ—â—me to follow a Church in which it is possiblâ— oâ—e may bee saved but very probable one may doe woâ—sâ— if he looke not well to the foundation judge yeâ—â— I am sure Saint Augustine thought it waâ— not and judged it A great sinne in point of salvation for a man to preferr◠〈…〉 incertainties and naked â—osâ—ibilities bâ—fore an 〈◊〉 and certaiâ—e course Now this â—ulâ— of Saâ—nt Augustines makes for us for wee goe upon certâ—inâ—â—â—s anâ— walke in the Via tuâ—a the safe way â—s thâ—t leâ—rnâ—d Knight and my worthy good 〈…〉 hath showne at large 〈…〉 bâ—ene said the vanity of the 〈…〉 for as Master â—â—del saith in hi◠〈…〉 Wadâ—sworths motives by the 〈…〉 bâ—tter to have become a Iewish Proâ—elite iâ— thâ— Apoâ—â—les time then a Christian for the Christians acknowledged the Iewes to bee the people of God and sâ—iled them brethren notwithstanding their zeale to the Ceremonies and traditions of their Fathers excused their ignorance and baâ—e with â—hem Whereas on the contrary they called those that professed Christ Heretikesâ—nd â—nd Sâ—ctaries accursed thâ—m drew them out of their Synagogues imprisoned them as you doe now the Protestants By like reason a Pagan in Saint Augustines time should rather have made himsâ—lfe a Christian among the Donatists then with the Catholikes For as it is already noted the Catholikes granted the Donatists Baptisme to be true and accounted them breâ—hren the Donatists on the contrary renounced their brother-hood and baptisme both rebaptized such as fell to their side used these formes of speech to their friends Save thy soule become a Christian like to those termes used by our Romish Reconcilers at this day PA. Prove what you say that in poynt of Religion you goe the safe way PRO. This appeares to be true in that divers of your side the moderate and sober sort at least doe oftentimes grant our Conclusions and that in sundry things our course is the safer As in making no Image of God In trusting onely in the merits of Christ. Iâ— worshipping none but the Trinity In directing our pâ—ayers to our Lord Iâ—sus Christ alone In allowing
Church holding that shee was a pure Virgin both before the birth of Christ and that shee also continued a Virgin all her life after condemned Helvidius for an Heretike now why were the Helvidians adjudged Heretikes surely because they beleeved more than was reveled in the word and would have thrust that on the Church for an Article of faith which had no ground at all And this is your case you over-â—each in your beliefe as the Helvidian Heretikes did witnesse your tenets of Transubstantiation adoration of Images Invocation of Saints Purgatory the Popes supremacie and the like wherein your faith is monstrous like the Gâ—ant of Gath who had on every hand sixe fingers and on every foote sixe toes and so it is with you who in the new Creed of Pope Pius the fourth have shuffled in more Articles of faith than ever God and his Catholike Church made Neither doe wee fall short in our beliefe for wee measure our faith by the standard and rule of Gods written wordâ— now since it jumpeth with the rule it neither faileth in defect nor over-reacheth in excesse Now by this time I hope I have performed the taske which I undertooke PA. You have indeed given in a Catalogue of visible Professors in some part of Christendome but what is this to the whole universall Church PRO. Very much for these particular congregations serve to make up the whole state of Christ his Church militant here on earth now this Church farre and wide dispersed hath in her particular members for substance of doctrine taught as wee doe To begin with the Easterne Church amongst the Grecians and Armenians The Grecians held that the Romane Church had not any Supremacie of Iurisdiction authoritie and grace above or over all other Churches They celebrated the Sacrament of the Eucharist in both kinds as we doe They denied that there was any Purgatorie fire They denied Extreame unction to bee a Sacrament properly so called They reject the Religious use of Massie Images or Statues admitting yet Pictures or plaine Images in their Churches The Armenians denie the true body of Christ to be really in the Sacrament of the Eucharist under the Species of Bread and Wine They denie the vertue of conferring grace to belong to the Sacraments Ex Opere operato They denie the Popes Supremacie and are subject to two of their owne Patriarches whom they call Catholicks They reject Purgatorie They have their publicke Service in their vulgar language The North-east Church amongst the Russians and Muscovites as they were converted to Christianitie by the Grecians so have they ever since continued of the Greeke Communion and Religion They have their divine Service in their owne vulgar language They reject Purgatorie They communicate in both kinds They denie the spirituall efficacie of Extreame unction To proceede now to the South-Church amongst the Habassines or mid land Aethiopians the Character of their Religion is this as I find it in Maâ—hew Dresser who reports it from Francis Alvarez a Portugal Priest and sometimes Legat into Aethiopia They communicate in both kinds They use no Extreame unction They reverence the Saints but they pray not unto them they doe much honour the mother of Christ but they neither adore her nor crave her mediation They have their Liturgie or Church Service in their owne vulgar language They have a Patriarcke of their owne who is confirmed and consecrated by the Patriarcke of Alexandria on which See they depend and not on the Romane In the Westerne Church we have the consent of the Waldenses in France the Wicklevists in England commonly called Lollards and Thaborites in Bohemia Here be then the Greeke and Latine Church the Churches in the the East West North and South all of them teaching for substance of doctrine as we doe I know indeed that Bellarmine sleighteth these Churches of Graecia Armenia Russia and Aethiopia saying We are no more moved with their examples than with the examples of Lutherans and Calvinists for they bee either Hereticks or Schismaticks So that all Churches be they never so Catholicke and ancient if they subscribe not to the now Romanâ— Faith are either Schismaticall or Hâ—reticall But we may not be so uncharitable to these afflicted Churches For as learned Bishop Vsher saith if wee should take a survey of these Churches and put by the points wherein they did differ one from another and gather into one body the rest of the Articles wherein they all did generally agree we should find that in those propositions which without all controveâ—sie are universally â—eceived in the whole Christian world so much truth is conâ—eined as being joyned with holy obedience may be sufficient to bring a man unto everlasting salvation Object I except against the Greeke Church for that it denieth the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son of God Answer Every errour denieth not Christ the foundation Indeed it would have grated the foundation if they had so denied the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequalitie betweene the Persons but since their forme of speech is that the Holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father by the Sonne and is the spirit of the Sonne and since as the Master of the Sentences saith Non est aliud It is not another thing to say the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne then that he is or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne in this they seeme to agree with us In eandem fidei sententiam upon the same sentence of Faith though they differ in words Since I say they thus expresse themselves they may continue to bee a true Church though erronious in the point mentioned In like sort Scotus following his Master Lombard saith that The difference betweene the Greekes and the Latines in this point is rather Verball in the manner of speech than Reall and materiall Besides it seemes by the same Scotus that the Greeks held no other Heresie then Saint Basil and Gregory Nazianzene held whom yet no man durst ever yet call Hereticks so that you must give us the famous Greeke Church againe PA. I have yet divers exceptions to take at your Catalogue as also at your English Martyrologie for you have named out of Foxe some for Martyrs who were very meane persons namely Iohn Claydon a Curriar of Leather Richard Howden a Wooll-winder as also some by name Thomas Bagley for a Martyr who was a married Priest PRO. What though some of them were tradesmen did not Peter stay divers daies in Ioppa with one Simon a Tanner Act. 9.43 Was not that godly convert Lydia a seller of Purple Act. 16.14 Hath not God chosen the base things of the world to confound the mighty 1 Cor. 1.27 c. Besides they were no such base people for among others I produced
and differed from you so that they cannot belong to the same Church PRO. Concerning Wickliffâ— Husse and the rest if they have any of them borne record to the truth and resisted any innovation of corrupt Teachers in their times even to blood they are justly to be termed Martyrs yea albeit they saw not all corruptions but in some were themselves carried away with the streame of error Else if because they erred in some things they be no Martyrs or because we dissent from them in some things we are not of the same Church both you and we must quit all claime to Saint Cyprian Iustin Martyr and many more whom we count our ancients and predecessors and bereave them also of the honour of martyrdome which so long they have enjoyed Irenaus and Iustin Martyr held the error of the Millenaries Cyprian many others held Rebaptization necessary for such as were baptized by heretikes S Austin and the greatest part of the Church for sixe hundred yeares held a necessitie of the Eucharist to Infants and in other things differed one from another and from the Church in the aftertimes correcting their errors yet because they all entirely and stedfâ—stly held all the necessary fundamentall principles which these errors did not infringe neither held they these errors obstinatly but only for want of better information they were of the same Church and Religion whereof we are S. Austin saith There be some things in which the most Learned and best Defenders of the Catholike Rule the bond of faith preserved do sometimes not agree among themselves and one in some one thing saith righter than anoher Now if the different opinions of the Fathers in some points hindred not their union in substance of the faith and their being members all of the same Church why should the like or lesser differences now among the Protestants hinder their union in substance of the same faith and their being members all of the same Chuch both among themselves and with the Fathers yea but Wickliffe and Husse with others mentioned in our Catalogue they erred in point of faith it is true but yet their error was not joyned with pertinacy they errâ—d not incorrigibly buâ— for want of better information they erred in that doctrine of faith wherein the truth was not fully scanned declared and confirmed by a Plenary Councell as S. Austin speaketh had it beene we may well thinke the very same of all those holy men which Austin most charitably saith of Saint Cyprian Without doubt they would have yeelded to the truth being manifested unto them by the authority of the whole Church Object We are at vnity but your Protestants are at ods and namely your Lutherans and Calvinists in the point of the Sacrament the one holding Consubstantiation and the other opposing it Answer The Protestants especially we of the Church of England are at unity as appeares by the Harmony of our confessions as also by our joynt subscriptions to the Articles of Râ—ligion established And for the point mentioned the difference is nothing so great as you would have it thought for as the moâ—t learned and judicious Zanchius observeth and our Doctor Field out of him In all necessary points both the parties agree and dissent in one unnecessary which by right understanding one another might easily be compounded Both sides saith Zanchius doe agree that the elements of bread and wine are not abolished in their substance but onely changed in their use which is not onely to signifie but also to exhibit and communicate unto us the very body and blood of Christ with all the gracious working and fruits thereof Both parties agree that the very body and blood of Christ are truely present in the Sacrament and by the faithfull truely and really received Thus farre all parties agree that is in the whole necessary and sufficient substance of the doctrine of this Sacrament for the other matter wherein they differ de modo of the manner how Christ is present in the Sacrament seeing it is not expressed in the Scriptures in the judgement of Zanchius it might well be omitted and they themselves confesse when they have gone as farre as they can to determine it still it is ineffable and not possible to be fully understood It is enough for us saith the same Zanchius to beleeve the body and blood are there though how and in what manner wee cannot define So then in this maine controversie betweene them about Consubstantiation which as Zanchius saith did afterwards occasion that other of ubiquity in both these controversies the main truth on both sides is out of controversie that Christ is really truly exhibited to each faithfull Communicant and that in his whole person he is every where the doubt is onely in the manner how he is in the Symbols and how in heaven and earth Now for other ods amongst us they be but in Ceremonies or at worst in points of no absolute consequence whereas the differences amongst Papists concerne the life of Religion They differ concerning the Supreame authoritie of the Church whether it be in the Pope or in the Generall Councel The Councels of Constance and Basil determined that a Generall Councel was above the Pope the Councel of Florence decreed the Pope to be above a Generall Councel They differ concerning the manner of the conception of the Virgin Mary The Dominican Friers following the Thomists hold that she was conceived in Originall sinne the Franciscans hold the contrary The moderne Popes disâ—gree with the ancient concerning the dignitie of universall Bishop adoration of Images Transubstantiation Communion in both kinds and the Merit of good workes as is already showne in the fifth and seaventh Centurie of this treatise So cleere is it that some doctrines of the later Roman Church were opposed by the ancient Roman Bishops thâ—mselves to wit adoration of Images as also the dignity and title of universal Bishop by Gregorie the Great coÌ„munion in one kind â— as also the merit of good works by Leo the first TransubstantiatioÌ„ by Gelasius the first Besides the Iesuits and Dominicans differ at this day concerning the weighty point of Free-will and Grace The truth is the Popish Faith varieth not onely with their persons but according to time and place so that they can exchange their tenets upon occasion advance or cry downe their opinions at their pleasure as may best serve for their advantage For as Azorius the Iesuit saith It falls out often that that which was not the common opinion a few yeares since now is And that which is the common opinion of Divines in one Country is not so in another As in Spaine and Italy it is the common opinion that Latreia or divine worship is due to the Crosse which in France and Germaâ—y is not so but some inferior kind of worship due thereunto And Navarrus the Casuist sayes