then thinke that t' is ether absolutely impossible or extremely difficile to make the grosser sort of men apprehēde or vnderstande anie thing likely or to the pourpose of God and his goodnesse Suerly wee maye And the reason is because sense and sensible obiects are the perpetuall matter and subiect wherein our vnderstandings are exercised not only in our childhood and youth but euē in our whole life vnlesse some few by the studie of metaphysikes doe eleuate their vnderstandings aboue the ordinarie pitch of mē and course of nature And therefore it must needes be hard and as it were impossible that the greattest part of mankinde should be able to frame anie fitting and likely conceite or Idea of Allmightie God or of his goodnesse Looke but vpon the Iewes who had this knowledge inculcated into them by perpetuall miracles and Prophetes and yet they could not keepe thē selues long frō running after Idoles because they had nothing to entertaine their phansie and their sensible manner of vnderstanding And now if you call to minde the common saying of philosophers that nihil est volitum quod non sit praecognitum to which is Parallell the Poet's Apopthegme quod oculi sunt in amore duces you shall finde that what is not well rooted and imprinted in the vnderstanding can neuer be deepely fixed in the will nor consequently the will efficaciously moued and affected by it And that nothing and I know not what are of the same force and effect in our case according to Aristotle's maxime that in respect of loue it is all one not to be and not to be knowne it must necessarily follow that the greatest part of men being not able to make anie strong and deepe conceite of God and his goodnesse that t' is not possible they should be efficaciously moued and affected therewith And if a preacher after a lōg discourse of the loue of God and of his great benefits towards vs in the order of nature could not giue a satisfactorie accounte by reason of the weakenesse of his Auditory to one that should aske him who is God or what is he that hath donne all these things for vs Would not his learned labours vanish into a dreame and the people goe awaye as from a playe◠where they wept at a thing which concerned them not and were no longer caried a waye then whilest they fate hearing I could cite a witnesse and name a gentlewoman of your acquaintāce of as sweete a nature and as pure an vnderstanding as is to be found amongst a thousand with whom hauing some times occasion to discourse about the state of the next life she hath often tould me that shee bebelieued all those fine things hauing euer beene taught shee must doe so but that they seemed to hir as things in a dreame for quoth shee I shall neuer be able to cōceiue what a soule is when all the bodie is taken a waye Nephew Truly vncle you haue quite conuinced me for as I see men talke of nothing more familiarly then of God and his goodnesse so likewise I see that if they discourse but of an Angell they presently conceite him to haue a bodie and wings And if one would force them out of it they would be besides themselues So that in verie deede not one in ten thousand can make anie right cōceite of spirituall things And if you talke to the common people of heauē they conceiue it but a drie thing to sitt looking vpon God Allmightie and singing Psalmes for all eternitie Vncle. Well then cozen this being so Wh◠the knoWledge of the Incarnation is necessarie that God's goodnesse is so abstract and sublime as that verie few can ether know or loue it sufficiently in it selfe Suppose Allmigtie God of his infinite mercie and goodnesse towards vs hath so tempered and abessed this too high and inconceiuable obiect by taking man's nature vpon him and hath thereby made it palpable and tractable euen to the weakest and grossest vnderstandings in so much that anie man how dull soeuer may with sensible facilitie fixe his minde and loue vpon it Nay if he hath adioyned there vnto the greatest causes of loue that hart can wish and beare to witt the paines and sufferings of his sacred life and bitter death practized vpon his diuine person as he was man the tender expressions whereof we find recorded in the holy historie of the Gospell can we thinke that who take's this pointe of God's Incarnation out of the church and world by ether denying or doubting of it but that he doth moue an Important stone and that this dogme can be no lesse then of extreme and maine necessitie Nephew Certes no t' is cleere in my minde not only what you saye but also that such a man as would wrest out this corner stone and pull downe this pillar of the church what soere he prat's of Christ and beare's his name in shew in truth and veritie is no Christian For he takes awaye Christ and Annullate's his coming Wherefore if there be anie such no sword no fire no torment sufficient to exterminate him no auersion no horror The varietie of the Oriētall errours against Christ's being God and man no abomination great enough to make true Christians auoide him Vncle. I commende your zeale Now therefore cast your eyes vpon the orientall Heresies which antiētly raigned whereof some denyed Christ to be God some denyed him to be man some said he was nether God nor man but a third thing made of both And some said that he was two things whereof the one was God the other was man All agreed in this that the same person was not truly God and man and consēquently tooke awaye this efficacious meanes and pregnant motiue of loue that God did doe and suffer for vs those sensible and easily conceiued benefitts which he could not vnlesse he were man And in this consisteth the greate and maine helpe of humane nature that by and in the person of a true and sensible man wee might fixe our harts and setle our vtmost desires vpon our eternall good and happinesse We may therefore conclude with S. Iohn that who soeuer dissolueth Christ is Antychrist 1. Ioh. ◠Which all these antient Heretikes did to whom we may annexe all the Authours of heresies concerning the Blessed Trinitie the knowledge whereof being reuealed and deliuered vnto vs to direct vs in this great mysterie of the Incarnation the errours against that must needes reflect vpon this and be of the same nature and importance and consequētly of the same necessitie by reason this mysterie of the Incarnation cannot stand vnlesse the mysterie of the Trinitie be likewoise true Nephew I am fully satisfied in this pointe but I pray tell me good vncle is not §. 4 The beliefe af the Hierarchie established by Christ in his church likewise of necessitie FOr what auaileth it mankinde that there be such easie meanes to come to heauen if out of weaknesse
most easie and most naturall conceite that man can haue to conceiue that some thing is the cause of these goods and hurtes Now man's conuersation being cheefely with one an other men naturally apprehende all things to be donne by some vnderstanding thing as they see their owne actions are So that if there were a cōpagnie of men sprung out of the earth like Cadmus his people or raised out of emitts like the Myrmidons yet would they if they were truly men within a litle while frame them selues some Religion according as by chance or some one's apprehēsion or phāsie they should conceite their goods and euills to proceede from some visible or inuisible thing Wherefore I admire not that some people adored the sunne some the starrs others some rare men from whom they had receiued in their life time great benefits imagining that euen after death they were power full and beneficiall And surely it is much more impossible that a people which once hath had some Religion should quitte forget it and come to haue none at all for these causes will be euer knocking at their harts putting them in minde and driuing them into the cōceite of some God or Gouernor if therefore the effects of perpetuall causes must be euerlasting these causes of Religion to wit effects whose causes are hidden and the good and euill which come vnto vs by them being neuer awanting t' is impossible that Religion should euer cease Vncle. And thinke you not cosen that these same causes doe as well moue those who are setled in a faith or Religion to continue without changing their once receiued beliefe as well I saie as they doe keepe them from forgetting that Religion which they are once possessed of Nephew I confesse it seeme's euident to me that the change of Religion can not come by pure negligence and sleepinesse no more then the losse of it being these warnings of nature which force vs to Religion doe also continually call vpon vs to keepe our once practized faith and credulitie vnlesse there be greater causes to countermande it which I doe not see but may be easily found some times Vncle. Peraduenture not so easily as you imagine for an Errour is a persuasion of the minde And nothing can worke vpon our vnderstanding but it self and our will who soeuer therefore will make such a persuasiō must worke vpon one of these two The will you know is moued and weilded by hopes and feares the vnderstanding by reason and authoritie How error in bred in man Whence arise three waies by which such an opinion may creepe into mē's mindes 1. by bringing more reason for it thē cā be brougth on the contrarie side 2. by the authoritie of some so great as that their verdicts are held beyond examining and 3. by the power of some whose hands are full of paines and pleasures and who can thereby moue the will which being moued can make the vnderstanding belieue what she desire's Doe you know anie other meanes Nephew Not I vncle for I see that if I should bring anie other you would reduce it to some of these three But me thinke's such an opiniō might steale vpon the church at vnawares some obscure man broaching it at the first and others accepting of it by a kinde of negligēce and indifferencie to anie opinion or by too much credulitie not distinguishing right from wrōg though I see this touche's some what vpon authoritie and so will be reduced to that mēber of your diuision Vncle. It importe's not to what member it be reduced so there be no fourth waie But I though you had learned sufficiently alreadie to exclude this for what make's more notice to be taken of anie thing then that which changeth some publicke and vniuersall practize Looke but if anie one goe through the streete's in some strang and new fashioned apparell how all staire and gaze vpon him the verie boys leaue their playe to follow him and looke at him And therefore to saie such an Innouation can be brought in without being taken notice of is as much as to saie the cause of admiration or taking notice can be set before our eyes without working it's effect Which is to saie that fire and tow should lye together without burning or a stone hang at libertie in the aire without falling downe these be impossibilities in nature and are in the racke of those things against which nature folliciteth by hi◠continuall causes of hopes and feares which made you confesse but now that negligence was not a sufficient cause to produce the change of Religion Wherefore let vs see if by anie of these three waies which I haue proposed the change of Religion can happen Nephew Nay sir I will doe you the fauour to exclude one of them to wit the waie of persuasion or by alledging more reason against the true Religion then can be brought for it for seing truths beare witnesse to one another and that the Religion we speake of is supposed to be true t' is impossible that more reason should be brought against it then for it Nor is the greatnesse of anie man's wit who should stand to maintaine the error to be feared for this error being to passe through a great part of the world t' is not credible that one man should so farr surpasse in wit the rest of the world as to put them all from their stāding without contradictiō Or that in so much time as is necessarie for the spreading of such an error into the maine of the church no man should haue wit enough if not to bring more potent argumēts for the truth atleast to finde out the weakenesse and fallacie of those which are brought against it which would be sufficient to hinder the progresse of such an error for who is in possession of an opinion must haue an insoluable reasō to put him out of it if he be wise and constant Much more those who ground their tenets vpon receiuing them from their forefathers and hould all reason insufficiēt to proue their faith because of it's supernaturalitie and therefore ought more to harken to what was deliuered thē to anie reason which may seeme to vrge the change of what is knowne to be deliuered Thus much I confesse is cleere but why the authoritie of some one or more whose words are aboue examine or the power of some who hould's the balance of good and badd of paines and pleasures may not worke an error into the church that I doe not vnderstand Vncle. You haue drawne the question from an vniuersall to a particular for we spoke of a change betwixt two Religions in common and you speake of a change from a true one to a false one Yet this being sufficient for our intent I will add that if you had that conceite of the true Religion which much thought hath bredd in me to wit that t' is the most high wise rationnall conformable to man's nature to gouerment to all
innouation of this kinde because where there is no euidence the case ought to be putt to iudgment and supreme iudgment being alreadie knowne and giuen as in our case there is no farther place for iudgment and therefore only euidence can be heard Now this euidence ether is so great as that there neede 's no skill to conceiue and vnderstand it and then the laietie may be admitted as Iudges Or else the Emminence of the Introducer is such as that a pointe may be euident to him and yet not to the greatest part of the Clergie who are the naturall iudges of this cause Wherefore euerie Innouator must of necessitie pretende one of these two The first he cannot without charging the whole Clergie of peruerse and will full opposition and contradiction of the knowne truth and so plainely knowne that euerie man see 's it at the first opening and proposing of it Which whether it was euer done or is possible to be done I leaue it to the iudgmeÌ„t of anie indifferent man The second cannot anie waie belong to the ignorant and vnskillfull people And therefore the Innouator must in such a case sâ—eke out the most learned of the Clergie and to them propose his reasons but must not in anie case publish his science to the vulgar ignorant whom we suppose vncapable of it for feare of sedition and faction And in this case as perhapps this pointe of doctrine may be necessarie or at least conuenient for the higher orders of the Clergie so likewise it cannot be necessarie for the vulgar people sithence we suppose them incapable of it And therefore this â—mineÌ„t introducer must neuer mâ—ke it common to the laietie much lesse appeale from the Clergie to them And thus you see that all controuersies in Religion must in be remitted to the iudgment of the Clergie that is in Catholike language to an oecumenicall Councell Nephew Me thinke's vncle I could obiect one thing against your discourse to witt that t' is not in man's libertie to thinke or iudge what he will of anie positioÌ„ such an act being a naturall operation and therefore that no man ought to be forced to belieue this oâ— that And to saie the truth what can I thinke whether the great Turke be a talle or low man whether the number of the starrs be odd or euen if my life laid on 't I could not thinke ether part Vncle. I cozen but if the great Turke 's true statua were in westminster and that for going thither you might know his height or that the true number of the starrs were sett downe in an Almanacke which you might buy for a groate I belieue if your life laid on 't you would easily be resolued to thinke the truth Nephew Mary that 's true but then I were not forced to thinke or iudge one part but only to seeke out the truth and so come naturally to thinke it Vncle. Why then likewise if the church commande you to thinke and belieue that which by seeking you may easily come to know not shee but you are to blame if you doe not belieue what she commande's And if hir authoritie be greater then anie argument which can be brought to the contrarie and greater then the most part of the reasons where vpoÌ„ you build all the beliefs which gouerne your life and actioÌ„s may you not securely belieue what she belieue's Or if you please doe but seeke out the motiues which make's the church hir selfe belieue what she teacheth and you will easily belieue with hir But if you will not attende to the meanes which would make you know and belieue the truth is it not fitting you should be forced to your owne good as fooles and vitious men are to follow reason Some men you know doe things by force which otherwise they would neuer doe And as doggs abstaine from good bitts for feare of beating so passionate men come now and then to reason for feare or punishment Nephew T is true a passionat man doth neuer see reason and yet thinke's all other men vnreasonable his passioÌ„ euer making him iudge amisse And therefore truly I doe not see why men should not be punished for their passions and so be forced to leaue theÌ„ Vncle. If that be so cozen you will finde that your argument hath a greater extent then you are aware of For if you considere how few there be that are not caried awaie with passion or interest and how secretly these dispositioÌ„s lye hidd in the mindes and actions euen of the best men And then looke into the nature of our soule and see that nothing but euidence can stroÌ„gly moue and draw hir of it self or by it's owne force you will plainely perceiue that all opinion is generally grounded vpon passion and interest and therefore according to your argument all false opinions should be corrected Nephew I thinke in deede there 's a great difference betwixt disputing wildly to and fro with arguments on both sides which most men vse and taking knowne and agreed principles and proceeding vpon them to drawe forth a long threed of science as me thinke's your manner is For I conceiue that if this methode were strickely obserued men would attaine to farre more knowledge in things necessarie to our well being and to a greater Eminence in profitable curiosities Vncle. Howsoeuer cozen I hope you now perceiue that this pointe hath resolued all controuersies For if all disputs betwixt vs and others of a different communion be in matters subiect to iudgment and that there caÌ„ be no higher iudgment vpon earth for the resolution of such difficulties then of a Generall Councell And that we doe not refuse communion to anie man but for matters thus resolued it euidently followe's that all questions betwixt vs and what church soeuer of different communion are alreadie past iudgment and consequently past dispute For what opinion I pray can you haue of those who will not admitte nor be content with anie iudgment which God hath left vpon earth for such matters as they theÌ„selues call in doubt I thinke both common sense and naturall reason will condemne them But lett me aske you one question farther Suppose that some thing be ordered in the church of God according to the iudgment and discretion of those to whom God hath giuen the power of Gouerment and iudgment in such matters which perhapps of it selfe might be otherwise ordered without anie preiudice to the church but they thought this waie the fittest now come's others to whom this charge is not committed and saie t' is ordered amisse requiring it may be altered whether doe you thinke that in this case this order ought to be changed vpon their demande and proposition Nephew If those controwlers can shew an error in the order theÌ„ me thinke's it were fitting to change it but if not then I should absolutly condemne them of disobedience and schsime if they should perseuere to stand out And he that should excuse them were
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
present church as before they did Nephew Nay if you goe that waie to worke I feare you will fall short of your intent For the child belieue's father and mother the parishoner his Pastor without reflection of the present church T' is like therefore these Deuines rely vpoÌ„ the motiues which they mantaine what soeuer they did when they were yong Vncle. Not so nether for as the water of the new riuer which is brought to London come's to a particular house by a smale pipe yet t' is continuate to the whole bodie of the riuer so the instruction of faith though it come to a child by his parents and to a parishoner by his Pastor yet the dependence of the doctrine is from the whole church whose members and instruments these parents and Pastors are if they be in the church to which you know I tould you what is required And t' is the like when parents teach their children what is to be done or auoided according to the lawes of the couÌ„try for though the father speake yet t' is the common wealth which preuaileth and bindeth Nephew At least me thinke's vncle such great Doctors should not be ignorant of a point agreed vpon by the whole church and therefore since they disagree about the motiue of faith I doe not see how you can saie t' is generally agreed on in the Catholike church Vncle. Had this agreemeÌ„t beene made in a Generall Councell or in some vniuersall meeting of faithfull ChristiaÌ„s and so recorded I doubt not but these learned Clarkes would haue knowne it but it was not so agreed on Yet as by the vniuersall blessing of crescite multiplicamini Gen. 1. all men and beasts agreed vpon feeding and filling the world euerie one in his kinde by the directioÌ„ of their maker knocking at their stomackes when they were hungrie and at their pharisie when they were full to set on worke those instruments by which the se coÌ„mands of Almightie God were to be fullfilled Marc 16 Euen so by the like blessing of Euntes in mundam vniuersum praedicate omni creaturae the Apostles being dispersed into all natioÌ„s by the vertue of doeing miracles found credulitie or rather forced faith out of the flintie harts of the corrupted world and hauing setled Christs doctrine dying left in their successors soules and mindes this agreement To belieue what was deliuered from them and to trust those who had heard them speake and afterwards to trust those who had heard it from them who had their instruction from the Apostles and lastly to trust the publike consent which affirmed that they held their faith by entaile from them though manie ages after This agreement being written in harts and not in bookes t' is easie for learned men who seeke their learning in bookes and not in harts to mistake As in Philosophie whilest great Clarkes seeke nature not in it self but in other men's sayings they are deuided and few in the right the truth being but one Nephew You haue beene as good as you word For I see it importe's not that our Deuines be of different opinions in this point so that in their liues and practize they agree And truly I neuer heard of anie Catholike that ether doubted but that Christian doctrine was descended by Tradition or thought that what was so descended could be false nay I thinke euerie moderate and wise Protestant will make no question of that which he conceiues to haue descended from the Apostles by succession For Catholikes wee all rely vpon the censure of the present church nor can or â—are anie man appeale froÌ„ it and call him self a Catholike for we all account them infidels and publicans who are refractorie to this tenet Wherfore t' is euident that what soeuer the church speake's and deliuer's for Tradition is agreed vpon by all Catholikes to be certaine and vnrefusable and sithence all other motiues or rules of faith are not vniuersally receiued t' is euident likewise that this is the rule which can oblige vs to certaintiem matters of beliefe But I haue an other great difficultie to wit that I see our Catechists and preachers wheÌ„ they teach vs Christian doctrine tell vs this you are to belieue this you are to practize without expressing the differences which are betwixt the points of doctrine whereof perhapps some are but only the answeres of learned men some definitioÌ„s of the church and some matters of traditioÌ„ And the like I belieue of former ages Christian doctrine descending vnto vs in a heape or confusion and therefore t is hard to distinguish what is of Tradition what the generall consent of the church and what only learned men's opinions Why then may not some position of this last rancke passe for a tradition by the adoption of some ages in which it will be forgotten that euer it had it's beginning froÌ„ the wit and industrie of priuate men And to satisfie me in this point you must let me see how that The teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what is of necessitie to be belieued what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition VNcle If I should answere you that former ages haue beene more exact in distinguishing things certaine from vncertaine it would not be without ground as you may see by the framing of antient creedes aÌ„d other professions of faith as occasions required but this were to send you to antiquitie whereas in this discourse you know we both desire that common sense and reason without farther enquiry should be our iudge Wherefore the point you speake of which you feare might deceiue vs by the likenesse of tradition is ether true or false if true then I pray what incoÌ„uenience is there if it surprise vs in the qualitie of it's certaintie Nephew This I feare and thinke that it would breake the rule and certaintie of Tradition Where vpon relye's the whole building and frame of our faith according to your discourse For if once truth not deliuered by traditioÌ„ may passe for so deliuered what securitie can we haue that a falsitie may not likewise passe in the same maÌ„ner and so bring an errour amongst vs Vncle. I put you only that part of the question if the point were true which you draw into the contrarie if it were false wherefore if it doe not follow that an vntruth can deceiue vs in that kinde then there is no incoÌ„uenieÌ„ce in the consequeÌ„ce of the former part to wit that truth may be taken as deliuered by traditioÌ„ which truly is not so deliuered And the reason is cleare for seeing the truths of ReligioÌ„ are knowne for the framing of our liues conformably vnto them it importe's litle in respect of vertue vpon what grounds they are held in particular so they be vniuersally and coÌ„stantly held for an action done in consequence of such belieued truths is neuer the worse for the qualitie of the certaintie of it's obiect Yet for your farther satisfaction this I will adde
take much better I shall profit more and you will be in lesse danger to loosâ— your labour Vncle. Well cozen seing you are vnwilling of that discourse I will not trouble you therewith vpon condition that after twelftide you will not faille to come to me with preparation to receiue that doome which I shall laye vpon you for your christmasse trespasses In the interim I conceiue nothing more fitting then to informe you of the cheefest and most important affaire that you can haue vpon earth You know you haue beene borne and bred a catholike And you know it is their beliefe and tenent that all wee catholikes are obliged to venter life and fortunes for the profession of our faith Is it not then a great 〈◊〉 for a catholike gentleman to know full well how to gouerne his temporall estate till his grounds breede his catell sollicite his suits in law and menage all his terrestriall affaires and not knowe Why in such an occasion he ought to hazard yea and if neede be to loose and cast all awaye in the verie sight of his lamenting friends some vpbraiding and some condemning his action as foolish and indiscreete Nephew I pray vncle doe not laye so hard a censure vpoÌ„ me nor thinke me so ignorant of those things with out the knowledge where of I cannot be a catholike And you know wee cannot be admitted to the Sacraments nor can we be esteemed and reputed catholikes vnlesse we belieue that the reward we expect in heauen is farr beyond the pleasures of this world And truly considering what Christ Iesûs hath done and suffered for vs it were most base and vnworthie of a gratefull soule to feare to yeild vp life and goods when it is for his honnor and glorie Nor doe I thinke that more violent and efficacious reasons and motiues can be giuen to a noble haâ—t then these I coÌ„fesse if you would search into the metaphysicall grounds and principles of these truths I should perhaps light short of giuing a full accounte but my age and naturall vnstedfastnesse pleade my excuse as yet peraduenture when I grow elder I may proue more bookish and then turne the scripture and fathers and so become able to giue a more sollide accompte of our tenents but as yet this is not to be expected at my hands Vncle. Feare not cozen anie hard measure from me Who loue you so tenderly nether is that the point I entended to deliuer vnto you But sithence the greatter part of your kinred are of a different beliefe from you I desire to enable you to giue them satisfaction why you adhere so strongly to the Catholike partie as to hazard your owne and posteritie's wellfare for the maintenaÌ„ce of your faith and profession Nether am I ignoraÌ„t of your youthfull disposition and therefore Will I abstaine from misticall and sublime metaphysikes and only or at least cheefely make vse of what you know alreadie and what common sense and ordinarie naturall reason is able to performe wherefore to make the first breach I praye tell me cozeÌ„ what answere would you giue to a neere friend Whâ— should blame you for ruining your estate in the defence and maintenance of a position which is against the iudgment of your kinred friends countrie and state Nephew I would laye opeÌ„ vnto him how that our church and our doctrine hath beene euer preached and taught from Christ's time in all countries of the world what abuÌ„dance of holy martyres and learned men wee haue had how all christian nations haue beene conuerted by vs and such like motiues which are able to secure anie Wise man from doubting and must needes conuince the truth to be on our side our Aduersaries being but vpstarts of an hundreth yeares old Which if anie should coÌ„test and denye these things to be true I Would offer to produce men Who should proue and iustifie all I said against anie Doctor he should bring Vncle. Verie well bur if your friend reply that they willingly coÌ„fesse these things haue beene done by the common Ancestours of both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts which were the true church but manie errours by litle and litle haue encroached and crept in amongst theÌ„ which wheÌ„ they were discouered those who now adhere to the RomaÌ„ church would not acknowledge but through obstinacie and desire of soueraigntie brake communion And farther that these diuisions are not truly diuisions in Religion but in opinion so that both sides remaine still parts of the true church though so much traÌ„sported by their first heates and passions as that causelesly they denye communion one to the other And saie's he if you looke in to the pointes of these diuisioÌ„s they are but such as be in the Roman church it selfe betwixt Thomists and Scotists Dominicans and Iesuits who proceede so farr as to charge one an other with Pelagianisme and Caluinisme which neuerthelesse doth not make different churches euen by the Catholikes owne confession And why then should the Protestants be of an other church then the Catholikes are of What would you answere to this Nephew I am not so ignoraÌ„t but I see well enough that all manner of differences ought not to make a breach in churches Wâ— diffâ—ces Reliâ— maâ— schâ— and yet that some may For I see men goe to law and haue quarells and both partyes not only tollerated in the in the common wealth but held good meÌ„bers of it And yet others I see punished for their quarells and contentions And if I doe not mistake the reason of this disparitie is that as long as these quarells are betwixt priuate meÌ„ so long they are suffered and borne withall but if once the common wealth take part with one side giuing iudgmeÌ„t in the cause disputed and thereby interesse it self in the busines if then the other side yeild not it is iustly accounted punishable and an euill member of the commonwealth And in deede thus to disagree vnder a head or rule which can bring the disagreers to agreement is rather to agree then disagree becaus they agree in a thing to wit in a mutually acknowledged head and coÌ„mon rule which is stroÌ„ger theÌ„ the causes of their disagreemeÌ„t and therefore their disageement is only for a time vntill that head and rule haue a conuenient and fitt opportunitie to reduce the disagreers to a full and totall agreement This dayly experience teacheth vs in our owne commonwealth which hauing once giuen a finall senteÌ„ce and determinate iudgment betwixt partye and partie the suite is ended and who should disobey would be punished for contempt So likewise in the church which is a spirituall common wealth such differences as be amongst those who referre them selues to hir iudgment and acknowledge hir decisiue authoritie are and may be tollerated to what termes soeuer the partyes growe amongst them selues But such differences as trench vpon hir authoritie and are betwixt those whereof the one partye will not acknowledge hir defining power nor stand to hir
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
reason of their immunities That the Clergie's strength is able to baÌ„die now and then against the state Nay that a Religions order especially such an one as hath great power ouer it's subiects is able and not vnpractized to bandie and make good it's part against both church and state with no smale damage and daÌ„ger to theÌ„ both if it they were not preuented These things must needes auerie anie state much more a schismaticall one from out Religion sitheÌ„ce we suppose them to be of necessitie Vncle. As for the Clergie's chastitie euerie one knowes we confesse t' is not a matter of necessitie by the law of Christ HoW the Clergie's chastitie and single life is conuenient Yet that t' is most fitt and conuenient I thinke no wise man can doubt For of all pleasures the carnall doth most affect sensible nature and produceth the greatest extremities of passion in man and consequently is the greatest binder of man to earthly things and the greatest hinderer froÌ„ heauenly and spirituall thoughts that nature hath placed in maÌ„ It were needlesse to tell you how vnfitt this sensuall imployment is for those men whose maine life and action ought to be in preaching and teaching celestiall and supernaturall doctrine and whose ayme euen by their function and profession is to draw people from this clodd of earth and eleuate their mindes to God and spirituall affections From wedlocke followe's the loue of wife and children 1. Cor. 7 and the necessarie cares of household which the Apostle cale's the afflictions or tribulations of the fleth And from them the Euill Gouerment of the church which ether must be hereditary or neglected the decessour euer streeuing to leaue nothing to his successour which him self can make vse of for the better prouiding of his children And lastly the verie conceite of chastitie and the sollitude or lonenesse of an vnmarried man breedeth an apprehension of the person in whom they are whereby the people are much better gouerned by such an one Nor is Celebate the cause of such disorders as truly are found in some places too frequent but the multiplication of Priests Which in deede brings this sacred function into contempt amongst the laietie Why there should be but few Priests in the church whose tutors and teachers Priests are by Christ's institution and maketh them esteemed as seruants And this also make's the Priests them selues to haue a lesse conceite of their owne dignitie and dutie whereby they become carelesse of their honour and cariage And to saie the truth considering the difficultie of chastitie in the frailtie of man's nature t' is not likely that whole multitudes of men liuing in libertie and perpetuall occasions of falling should obserue so hard a rule as is expressed by Qui potest capere capiat Mat. 19 Wherefore not the Ecclesiasticall commaÌ„de of chastitie which you see is good and necessarie for the Gouerment of the church but the multiplicatioÌ„ of Priests especially of yong and vnworthie ones ought to be taken awaie and so the scandal would cease Nephew You saie well but I haue heard that multitudes of Priests are requisite for the magnificence of the church for the conuenient hearing of Masse especially on Holy days and for the better Administration of the Sacraments and helping of both liuing and dead by the inestimable sacrifice of the Altar which causeth manie to take priesthood meerely out of deuotion Vncle. I haue heard manie saie so too but they did not considere that the necessitie of Gouerment and instructioÌ„ is the cheefe necessitie of the church and that the Clergie is made and instituted for this Gouerment hauing the administration of the SacrameÌ„ts pourposly reserued vnto them to procure them veneration and authoritie for the better performance thereof and therefore not anie one ought to be made Priest but for this end to witt for the necessitie of instruction and GouermeÌ„t And this Bishops ought to take care of nor to bestow Priesthood but where the man's creation is necessarie for his flocke and then Priests would liue better and be more honored This was the practize of the primitiue church vntill the Ambition of Deacons who had the temporalities of the church in their hands made them desire honour and so were made Priests And the like ambition I belieue was the inuentor of those faire reasons which you alledge for well may it be magnificence in a Prince to haue manie seruants but to haue manie cheefe heads and Gouernors that must needes lessen their esteeme And for hearing of Masses if the people be well ordered and gouerned few Priests will suffice nor is the inconuenience so great as the multiplicitie of Priests And the like may be said for the administration of the Sacraments and for the helping of both liuing and dead by the holy sacrifice of the Altar As for those who desire to be Priests out of deuotion I thinke their deuotioÌ„ would be more conformable to the pietie of our forefathers if they did rather â—hunne then desire Priesthood especially where there are so manie allreadie And as in my opinion there cannot be an outward worke of greater pietie and charitie then to prouide the people of fitt instructors and Gouernors nor almes better imployed then to procure this effect so contrarie wise I thinke there cannot be an acte of greater sacriledge and impietie then to order and imploye vnworthie subiects in this kinde and who soeuer out of faction friendship or carelessenesse should doe it are worse then Adulteres Murtherers or those whose sinnes crye to heauen for vengeance But this I speake only of my owne opinion Nephew Truly vncle I thinke you are in the right though peradueÌ„ture there be not manie of your minde For I see well enough that as to multiplie vnworthie judges and Gouernors in a common wealth were to ruine it so likewise to multiplie vnworthie Priests is to hazard the spirituall good of Christianitie and to make an vnworthie parish Priest is in a manner to damne the parish Vncle. For your second obiection of the Clergie's riches That the Clergie's riches are no preiudice to the teÌ„porall state though I am none of those that thinke the Clergie or anie other spirituall companie whom they affect cannot be too rich yet I see no such inconuenience in their riches but t' is easily remedied For in all Catholike countries there be meanes found out to diminish their riches and make them contribute to the necessities of the state and common wealth as fully as others in proportion though in an honorable waie as to let them haue their owne Collectors of the monies required at their hands Besides the Clergie not making anie vowe or profession of renouncing ether riches or honor and bearing the greatest charge and office in the common wealth t' is both fitting and necessarie that they haue so much wealth as is requisite for the due performance of their function as first to be out of sollicitude for
it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture §. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee §. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
which some doe with such cōfidence for surely they must ether be proude dunces and ignorant doltes not vnderstanding what is proofe and what is not or else preuaricating miscreants counterfeiting what they doe not belieue and thinke our learned men vnable or vnwilling to discouer the follye of theyr enterprise Vncle. Your bloode is too hot nephew but if you said only that such men as promise them selues victorie with so much confidence in this case are rash and vnaduised I should thinke you wronged them not For the truth is there 's none but is so in his measure And where interest or affection is ioyned to some litle apparēce which the first sight of the text affordeth there 's presently a great impression made It is true in so graue and important a case they ought to be more staied but he whose conscience quitteth him from all too forward iudging of his neighbours euen in matters of consequence let him cast the first stone for mee I will leaue them to them selues and let you see that we are not yet at an end but farther §. 9 That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceassed FOr not only the languages in which the Holy scrtpture was writtē doe of their owne nature as I tould you breede great ambiguitie in the text but also in this that those languages are now extinct And therefore wee see that the knowledge of them is not cōmon ad vniuersall but only of some particular men and amongst them in most things mainely controuerted And of this disputable vncertaintie amongst our famous linguists none can be ignorant the nūber of Critickes in this age and the multitude of their volumes giue sufficient testimonie of it The vncertaintie of criticisme Nay they will tell you that an exact and skillfull knowledge in this Criticisme is a necessarie part and qualitie for all those who will professe the studie or interpretation of scripture And yet God knowe's vpon what slight grounds they proceed what weake ghesses are their iudgmēts how full of quarells and mistakes so that a wise man no sooner seeth them but seeth likewise that there is nothing but varieties of disputs vpon coniecturall probabilities and neuerthelesse you shall haue thē cry out runne to the fountaine goe to the spring see the originall texts not considering that there is nothing there but trubled waters that is obscure cōiectures I could tell you also that often times it happeneth that such as are imployed in the translations of these ambiguous originalls haue got by friēds and fauour that preferment and so haue let passe some places in their trālations which I could cite against their owne iudgment to complie with the will of their patrons and higher powers whom they durst not resiste But in deede their principles in them selues are so vncertaine as that the best and wisest of them will confesse they haue beene often mistaken and will not sticke to chāge their mindes now and then euen in such pointes as they thought they had the greattest euidence their art could aftord them What thinke you then deare cozen would become of Christian faith if it were only to relye vpon such a weake fundation Which must needes follow if the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion must haue their only warrant and decision from the bare written word and bee euer agitated by places of scripture and neuer concluded by a definitiue sentence Were it not too tedious I would let you see the vncertaintie of diuers particular languages wherein seuerall parts of the scripture are said to haue beene originally written but I will only tell you in a word §. 10 What vncertaintie followeth the two particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was written FIrst therefore the Hebrew hath two proprieties verie considerable the one that it is thought to be the shortest language in the world the other that it is the most eloquent For the first it cōsisteth cheefely in the writing of the words and in the scarcitie of bookes For the writing all the vowells are supposed not expressed in the originall copies and therefore only conserued by memorie and to memory we must trust for them I confesse they are now expressed by pointes wherein there is great mistaking the rules thereof being verie vncertaine and the more in that these rules and the practize of them were varied according to the diuersitie of the countries wherein the Iewes haue beene dispersed The reason of their writing without points I conceiue was becaus their vowells being at the first but fiue by making long and short grew to be more and so the first figures of them to stand only for the consonant vse of some vowells or els to haue no sound But what soeuer the origine was the effect must of necessitie breede a great obscuritie and doubtfullnesse in the language the vowells though fewer yet in vse being verie neere as much as the consonants The words are all of one or two sillables if anie be of more they are accounted exoticke and therefore verie like one an other which is also increased by the neerenesse of diuers of their letters So that both their pronuntiation and writing being easily mistaken and confounded bring 's a great disorder in the language This is likewise augmented by the want they haue of coniunctions and prepositions which not being of a sufficient number make the construction verie equiuocall manie times For the scaretie of bookes you may well conceiue it if you doe but know that the legitimate Hebrew is wholy contained in the old scripture whereof some parts were not written in Hebrew and if you saw the booke in a smale print and yet the letter bigger then our litle latin character you would see it is but a verie litle booke And what soeuer besides is written in Hebrew is not warrantable to explicate the text The Rabins affecting manie diuersities as well in words and stile as in writing Nay perhaps I might add to this that the characters them selues haue beene wholy changed since the beginning and that it is credibly reported to haue beene once lost and restored only by the memorie of Esdras So that we haue the least assurance of this language that almost can be of anie not entirely extinguished For the proprietie of the Hebrew 's Eloquence it consisteth cheefely in figures translations and number Figures or schemes are the highest part of proper Rhetoricke because they contayne the greatest force and swaye that words can giue to our appetit and if they bee rightly applyed carrie a way the auditor euen against his will vnto a strong and sadaine action These although the Prophets vse them more perfectly then euer anie Poet or Orator did yet doe they not cause much obscuritie vnlesse it be when they are vsed in Dialogue forme which where it is vsed in scripture t' is hard to discerne How soeuer they are a conuincing proofe that who
hee needeth not produce the text for it The new Testament is Historicall Epistolar The diuision of the bookes ef the new Testament or Misticall which by their verie names and natures exclude all such exactnesse as of necessitie is required to a iudging law they being all written vpō speciall occasions and for particular ends manie things repeated manie things left out in one which are found in an other scarsely anie one knowing of an others writings Those things which are in the Historie and in the Epistles are expressed as was fitting for the vnderstanding of them to whō they were written or to whom the recited speech was made circumstances farr different to what is conuenient and accōmodated to our vnderstandings now And as an able mā saith of historie that because it must needes leane and rely vpon all circumstances euen of smale moment he that should gouerne him selfe by it must of necessitie be misled so in our case the want of knowing circumstances and not comprehending the true meaning of what was written in a particular occasion must of necessitie make vs apt and subiect to take our ayme and rule amisse The misticall booke which we call the Apocalips being a pure Allegorie is the most vnfitting of all This in my iudgment is so euident that if anie man of common sense would but reflect and really considere what is requisite to determine a litigious controuersie betwixt two men passionate of their owne opinions he would neuer saie that scripture is a booke ether intended by Allmightie God or anie waie fit for such a pourpose Besides a prudent and experienced man will tell you that who looketh in to the various dispositions of men's vnderstandings but especially of men's wills and seeth the varietie and miltiplicitie of men's interests and passions Which for the most part are publickly noted in euerie mā or at least so inwardly hidden and secretly couered that some times euen he who would and doth sweare and protest him self free from all such pre-occupations is neuerthelesse the most dangerously intangled that such an one I saie will neuer thinke to finde two in two thousand who left to their owne libertie will agree in the interpretatiō of anie law how plane soeuer where both are oppositly interressed But if wee put this law to be supernatural and Deuine full of misticall and sublime commandes wherevnto nature hath not the least inckling whereby to raise hir self to the knowledge thereof but must of necessitie wholy and precisely rely vpon authoritie and captiuate hir vnderstanding in obsequium fidei and this to the most obscure and darke points and articles that can be imagined shall wee saie that in this case euerie one is to gather this law and come to the knowledge of it as well as he can out of the scripture alone so full of infinite ambiguitie as you haue seene Were it not first to be proued that scripture was made and intended for this end which how possible it is to performe let anie indifferent mā iudge Whereas to remitte the iudgment of all quarells disputes and controuersies of Religiō vnto liuing men is more efficacious more sutable to nature and discretion and in a word conformable to the practize of our forefathers and to the principles of common sense and reason Nephew I must confesse I shall neuer thinke scripture was giuen for a iudge of controuersies For to make so large a booke and to mingle in it so manie things which ether appertaine not at all to the substance of our beliefe or be verie remotely cōnexed vnto it And then to leaue it to our ghessing what may be the meaning of the words doth plainely argue some other intention in the writer then to set downe a standing and authenticall text to decide quarells And although I heare the Protestants saie that a plaine passage cleareth an obscure so may it be said that an obscure passage darkeneth a cleere so that 's all one Wherefore I long to know for what vse the scripture was made Vncle. Haue yet a litle patience cozen Diuers substantiall points haue beene opposed by antient Heretickes and make a reflexion vpon some cheefe pointes which haue beene cōtrouerted in the church of God As by the Arrians how a spirituall ād indiuisible essēce such as God is coulde haue a natural sonne By the Trinitarians and Sabellians how the same indiuisible thing could bee three persons By the Nestorians and Eutychians how one person could subsiste in two natures By the Pelagians how God's foreknowledge and predestinatiō could stand with merits and freewill By the Iconoclasts how the adoration of Images tended and ended in the Archetype By the Berangarians how a naturall bodie can haue corporall presence otherwise then by it's quantitie By our Wicklefists how all things be not gouerned by a fatall necessitie And all these renewed by the libertie and confusion of our last ages Considere the subtilitie of these questions how they are aboue nature and aboue our comprehensiō how the truths of these disputes are like the passage betwixt Scylla and Charybdis limited betwixt two errours so narrowly as that when they are spoken of at large and not dogmatically specially before they be examined and before the speaker by mistrust of opposition is made warie it is almost impossible the speaker should be so iust and straight in his language as not to giue occasion to one who comes after him to pretende his fauour for the one or the other errour Considere farther that wrangling witts such as for the most part they are who first beginne a new factiō in the church haue this property that they reduce their questions by litle and litle to logicall and abstracted notiōs and force the Catholikes to follow them if they will not desert their antient truths so that after a while one knoweth not where the controuersie lyeth For example Simon Magus and the first authours of our last Breaches preached that faith did so iustifie as that good workes were not necessarie now their followers drawe the question to this whether faith or charitie be the forme of iustification which is all most pure Logicke Now if an Arrian come and tell you that the scripture saith Pater maior me est and therefore that Christ Iesus was not truly God nor consubstantiall to his father And the like maie be said of the rest of these heresies and euen of all the most substantiall and fundamentall points of Christian faith The Catholike maintaine's the cōtrarie now I saie is it possible that anie rationall man should thinke that these and the like questions can be diffinitiuely resolued by a criticall libratiō of dead and vncertaine words full of equiuocall ambiguitie their sense and meaning lying in the brest and minde of him who is not to be found but deceassed manie ages agone And if they cannot as it is more then euident they cannot shall wee thinke that Christ Iesus hath left and established no meanes
euen now before it passe without controule Nephew Truly sir me thinke's you speake with reason and common sense Yet this authoritie being so great I see not Why it may not of it selfe and by it's instruments worke such an effect as that learned men vpon whose number I am to rely may not become partially affected in the iudgment of Religion and consequently the greater number be more corrupted then the lesser and so the opinion of three were to be preferred before the opinion of the seuēteene Nay in my iudgment experience tell 's vs that not euerie tenth person amongst learned Catholikes doe know the true value and force of our Aduersaries arguments but with a preoccupated dispositiō vndervalue them when perhapps they cannot giue a full and satisfactorie answere vnto them And how should it be otherwise sithence from our childhood we are taught to rely vpon the church for matters of Religion and to reiect and hate anie mā who should seeke to make a contrarie impression in vs. This being plāted in vs in our tender age and growing with nature cannot choose but make a vehement preoccupation in vs whē we come to be able to iudge of controuersies in Religion Nor is it to the pourpose whether it be fit that we haue such an impression or no for I oppose not the thing but the argument which vrge's for the greater number of learned men Vncle. And haue you not marked the like amongst Protestāts ād much more amōgst Puritants And doe you not finde that those who slight Catholike arguments are no lesse preoccupated then the Catholikes you speake of Nay if you marke it they greatest contemners of their Aduersarie's argumēts be they Catholikes or Protestants are commonly the most zealous or rather the most ignorant of the zealous So that in deede the true cause of this partialitie is ignorance and not anie prohibition which contrariwise is a great prouoker to make men doubt of their Religion For euer since our Grand mother Eue harkened to the first why did God all precepts whose reason we vnderstand not haue beene suspicious vnto vs. Tell me then I pray if you were in a shipp where there were a Pilote and his mate and some Captane who had neuer beene at sea before and in a controuersie about their iournay they fall to variance The Pilote and his Mate saying this is the waie the Captane by reports or guesses of his owne saie's that 's not the waie And therevpon the Cōpanie in the shipp take's parts whether side in this case would you iudge to be partiall Nephew T' is cleere that those who ioyne with the Captane are partiall for where the one side hath skill the other none t' is euident that if the question be of skill we ought adhere to the skilfull This I saie is euidēt if there be no particular circumstāce or speciall reason to the contrarie As in our case if the Pilote had some interest to carrie his shipp out of the waie then it were an other matter but stāding precisely in the termes of your case t' is cleere ō which side the partialitie is for the Pilote hauing skill the captaine none the Pilot's aduise were to be preferred in common sense and to side with him were wisdome Vncle. Why then who adhere's to vnskillfull iudgers in matters of Religion are partiall and who adhere's to experts in those matters are wise and rationall Wherefore if the seuenteene adhere to the Mistrisse and teacher of Religiō and the three fly from hir doth not these by this verie act make them selues partiall and those impartiall You must first know whether side goes the right waie before you can suppose ether side to be partiall and consequently the number will still preuaille as long as t' is in doubt whether side is partiall And if one side adhere to that part which was in prepossession the other plead against possession you are bound by the law of nature by the institution of all cōmunities and by commō sense to iudge the pleaders against possession to be partiall vntill they haue proued their motiō so reasonable as wil ouer balāce the great authoritie of possession which is against them Farther if you considere that Christian Religion is supernaturall that is such an one as cannot be learned but frō Almightie God to wit from the Apostles or from them whō the Apostles or their Disciples haue taught you will see that there is no disputing about Religion but only to aske what hath beene taught vs which none can tell vs but those whose life and professiō it is to teach vs that doctrine which them selues first learned to wit the Bishopps and Pastors of the church So that who doubt's of what these mē haue taught and doe teach vs must needes be ignorant of the meanes and waie of knowing Christian doctrine and passionately refuse the true ād certaine rule thereof Nephew I see myne errour and it was the same as if one should condemne a man of partialitie who keepe 's possession of his owne because he yeild's not vp the state whereof he is possessed before iudgmēt be giuē against him whereas contrariwise in the Ciuill law which I once studied a litle if one be put out of quiet possession his Aduersarie may not pleade vntill he be put in againe And sure of all cases the fowlest is to doubt in matters of Religion before one hath reason for where authoritie is plainely on the one side there none cā doubt without wronging that Authoritie vnlesse he haue a reason which doth ouer ballance it And so I am satisfied in this pointe Vncle. Take this with you nephew that generally no cōtrouersies of Religion fall out without some motiues of interest on both sides and so both sides may be suspected of partialitie but cheefely that which beginne's the change Wherefore suppose men were forbiddē to doubt that would be of litle force if once they sawe their commanders were interessed vnlesse they sawe withall that they could not mende them selues Besides in our schooles all things are caled in question which would not be suffered if it endāgered the churche's beliefe Lastly being t' is great schollers that gouerne men's iudgments if they did finde by their learning anie other sure ground of Religion then standing to the churche's authoritie and iudgment they would esteeme as much of hir Commandes and Sampson did of the Philistins shutting their gates vpon him And so wee see by experience that all truly learned ād vnpassionat mē on our side besides the motife of the churche's authoritie adhere vpon pure reason to the Catholike tenets and will protest vpon all that 's holy that they would be of the same Religiō though there were no commande finding it most conformable to reason and to the grounds of Christianitie Nephew The truth is I know not how to answere your discourse yet perhapps a Protestant would saie that all 's but probabilitie and likelihood and therefore to hazard a
beliefe being the ground of their actions and their actions the effects of their beliefe and therefore could not be altered without a maine change both in their faith and practize their beliefe mantaining their practize and their practize strengthening their beliefe And truly I see this is a cōnaturall waie to keepe Religion vncorrupted And that nature and necessitie droue the first Christians vpon occasion of anie controuersie to seeke what the Apostles had taught which being once begunne the ensuing Christians would follow the same course as lōg as controuersies could be resolued this waie which by your discourse may be done at this daie But I learned in Philosophie that a posse ad esse is no good argument for if it were sufficiēt to proue a thing hath beene donne because it could haue beene donne no man would be innocent but who is impotent And therefore I feare we are not much aduanced vnlesse you cā shew me §. 6 That if Chrest's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued VNcle Why so nephew you know if anie man be accused his denyall cleere's him sufficiently vntill proofe be brought against him And when it is brought t' is yet sufficient for his defence to shew it doth not conuince which if he can doe the law laye's no hold of him And shall not the clayme of so great a part of the world standing in possession and mantaining the innocentie of the church be heard and esteemed good vntill the aduerse partie hath made his proofes cleere and euident against them Certes you haue forgotten your resolution concerning your wiues honnor for whom you were so earnest but now Againe we must surely cōceite the church to be a thing planted by Almightie God with no lesse blessing then that which he gaue to men and beasts at their creation whereby they haue beene conserued to this daye for sithence our Redemptiō cost him no lesse then our creation we cannot esteeme his Blessing of continuance to be of lesse worth and vertue in the one then in the other And t' is much more easie to conceiue how the church is and may be continued thē how mankinde hath beene and wil be conserued whereof I thinke no man doubts And truly doe but considere how vnequall and vniust a conditiō it is that the clayme of the present church shall not be heard vnlesse she can confute all the peraduentures that wit may inuent And solue all the arguments which the infinite varietie of time place and occasions may haue giuen waie vnto And then you will see how vnreasonable an Aduersarie he is who will not be content with anie satisfaction but such as man's nature scarsely afforde's Yet to answere fully to you maxime first I will oppose an other vnto it and by comparing thē we shall better vnderstand the meaning of them both And t' is that frustra est potentia quae nunquam reducitur ad actum Wherevnto we may add that God the Author of nature neuer made anie thing in vaine so that when the same power or possibilitie is ordained for diuers effects or ends then if anie of it's effects be brought to passe it hath so farr arleast got it's end as that it cānot be said to haue beene made in vaine And therefore t' is no good argument to argue from the power or possibilitie to anie one of it's effects in particular because it 's ēd may be sufficiently obserued by an other effect But if the power or possibilitie haue but one effect then your first maxime faile's by reason of the secōd for being the power hath but one effect if that be not put the power must needes be in vaine Wherefore putting such a possibilitie least it should be frustrate you must needes put the effect and consequently the argument is still good there is a power or possibilitie therefore an effect And this follow 's most cleerely in our case for if Almightie God haue set causes which may and cā make his church eternall that is if he haue put a power or possibilitie of eternall duration in his chureh This effect to wit euerlasting continuance being of such a nature that it can be but one t' is euident that ether this effect will follow or else the possibilie is frustrate ād put to no end which in a worke of such a moment as that it is the verie ayme and end of all Gods workes it were more then absurde in common sense to grant such a consequēce And to declare this more particularly let vs considere that where there are manie varieties that which causeth defect in one causeth abundance in an other As if in diuers countries vnder seuerall climats Why Christiā faith cānot be destroyed there be lōg drought or raine the drought in spaine will cause want of corne here in England and in the low countries a mayne haruest And contrariewise much wet here causeth dearth in spaine and Affricke plentie So likewise the Catholike faith being dispersed through manie seuerall countries what in one countrie make's it faile in an other will make it flourish The hate betwixt France and spaine made Luther's proceedings to be fauored in Germanie by the Princes which leaned to the french and the same hatred made spaine and Italie to oppose them more vehemently The power and authoritie of some one mā in one countrie may oppresse the church whereas in an other euen to discountenance that man it shal be vpheld And as in place so in time diuers occasions make it now fauored now misliked but t' is impossible it being truth and conformable to reason that there should be anie so generall and vniuersall occasion as to make it hated in all times and places which would be necessarie for a totall ruine And this is it which mantaine's all the progresse of nature to wit because it hath rootes and principles in being for no one sorte of liuing things which haue being in manie farr differēt Climats can be exterminated by reasō the contraries which must distroye it are nether vniuersall in place nor time and therefore those contraries being spent the seedes of nature recouer them selues sprout out and budd againe new brāches of the same kinde So it fareth with Christian beliefe and doctrine which because it is so like and so connaturall to nature all it's opposites must needes be against nature and violent and consequently not durable which being gone then must of necessitie those in whose harts Religion is rooted blossome againe and bring forth such delightfull sauours and fruicts as will draw ād attract mē's soules ād spread it selfe amongst the multitudes frō whom it had beene violently banished Wherefore that the church in this or that time be oppressed is a thing within the compase of natute's mutabilitie But that in all Countries and at all times it should be oppressed to death surpasseth the power of mutable causes Which were not mutable if they should so long and in so different circūstances euer
things fitting for man's life that can be imagined of all disciplines and learnings possible that it leadeth into greater secrets of nature theÌ„ otherwise wee should euer reach vnto 〈◊〉 and exceedeth all the knowledge which made antient and moderne sages so proud If you had I saie this conceite of the true Religion you would be much more confirmed and strengthened in this persuasion But why doe you not thinke it impossible that the authoritie of one man should ouerswaye all the witts of the world Surely the Diuill him selfe would rather helpe the church then permitte so litle pride amongst meÌ„ Neuer yet anie great man wanted his Antagonist who had he such a flawe in is credit as this our subiect would giue him it would quiekly hinder the extent of his authoritie Not anie of our neuer so much esteemed fathers is receiued in all things nor is anie of their authoritie's receiued in such an eminent height as is necessarie for the effect we speake of Who was greater then Origen And yet was he condemned euen wheÌ„ he was in greatest vogue But I neede not appeale to examples where nature by it's owne force strike's the stroke For ether this new doctrine is brought in openly by the strong and earnest endeauours of the author him self whose authoritie must swaye the world and of his followers And then by this verie negotiation it will discouer it's newnesse and being false the more it is haÌ„dled the more it will shew it's weaknesse and at length goe out like a snuffe of it self Or els it come's in neglectedly being written by the bye and the Innouator's authoritie vrged by others vpon occasion and then the verie manner beare's with it so litle likelyhood and smale efficacitie as that it would be euerie where chechked by reason of it's newnesse and therefore could neuer passe vncontrowled through anie great extent And if we put the case as before to be in the Catholike church where the truth is not to be handled by learned reasons as being aboue nature but by what our forefathers haue taught vs you see this great man's authoritie presently vanisheth into smoake being there 's no place for anie man's authoritie where the constant and vniuersall verdict of the present world is against it in respect whereof he is but a single man Concerning force or power you must suppose before you can make anie apparent argument of it 1. that this power is ouer the whole Christian world 2. to be so strong that it feareth not to giue distaste to the people 3. to be vehemently desirous to quell the ould faith and bring in a new one 4. that it hath zealous ministers for the same end And lastly that all these dure and continue vntill all the antient faith be extinct And when all is done yet will it remaine vpon record and be knowne when this new opinion began and the violence being ended there 's a roote in men's harts to reiect this new opinion and returne to the old supposing as we doe there 's more reason for the old then for the new So that in common sense and nature's principles the Pope had iust cause to write to the Emperor in these termes Niteris incassum nauem subâ—â—ergere Petri Fluctuat at namquam mergitur illaratis But to conclude this point tell me cosen what time thinke you is necessarie for the introducing of an error by litle and litle before it will passe for a thing deliuered by haÌ„d to haÌ„d from Christ For such an opinion we call a Tradition Nephew I see it must gaine this reputation you speake of by making it quitte forgotten that the other opinioÌ„ was euer ether generally held or practized For as loÌ„g as t' is knowne that the other opinion was antienter they striue in vaine 〈…〉 this was deliuered by 〈…〉 sâ—â—â— and so defecâ—â—â—d 〈…〉 to hand Wherefore 〈…〉 it can be 〈…〉 â—â—â—trarie was in vogâ—◠〈…〉 â—east aÌ„d some what more 〈◊〉 needes be the 〈…〉 broching and 〈…〉 if I remember we 〈…〉 for 4. or 600. yeares the generally practized 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 church 〈…〉 certaine 〈…〉 aâ— I see that at 〈…〉 â—e iâ— necessarie and as much more as is 〈…〉 by 〈…〉 yet wil there still remaine writings of that time in which such a point was in dispute which will to sâ—â—â—â—e atleast in 〈◊〉 of the preuailing side 〈◊〉 such a controuersie 〈◊〉 hath 〈◊〉 and that the fallen side was antienter and consequeÌ„tly 〈◊〉 will sâ—â—ll be euidence 〈◊〉 there was an other faith 〈◊〉 doctrine deliuered by the Apostles before this came vp which in deede ought to be 〈◊〉 Vncle. Then cosen let vs put 200. yeares to be sufficieÌ„t for such an extinction which 〈◊〉 great a circuit and for a 〈◊〉 rooted in men's harts aâ—d practized in their actions is but a smale time and ioyne thâ—â— the 4. or 600 we speake of And considere whether anie violent mutation caÌ„ coÌ„tinue against nature for 6 or 800. yeares be it ether of Tyranie authoritie or what other occasion soeuer and this to oppresse the true faith grounded in nature Might we not as well saie there would be perpetuall faire wether for manie yeares together through a great part of the world â— as that there should be such a perpetuall disposition against reason and our naturall inclination to the vtter ruine and ouerthrow of our euerie where receiued faith Nephew You haue reason vncle For although when I considere the mutabilitie of mankinde alone and contriue with my self how this might be effected it seeme's plausible to saie that an other opinion might come in and destroy a receiued tenet yet when I deepely weigh what you saie against it and ballaÌ„ce the one with the other I see my frame is limited within a smale compasse and few yeares but reacheth not to the vniuersalitie and generall Dominion or Gouerment of nature For I could make the like argument for not raining blowing shyning and the like that is in deede for the destruction of nature And I doe not thinke you inteÌ„de to make the church stronger then the pillars of nature on which it stande's We ought not therefore to esteeme nature vniuersally defectible because we cannot reach to see fully how euerie particular encumbrance is auoided for t' is not that in ether of these subiects they causes are not certaine and infalible but that my discourse comprehende's them not Vncle. I doe not in deede intende to make the strength of faith greater theÌ„ the streÌ„gth of nature why faith is stronger then nature though perhapps I could supposing which is certaine that nature was created and built for the supernaturall guifts and goods which God bestowe's vpon it they which being greater and better then nature t' is fitting they should haue stronger mantenance and holds then nature it self And therefore t' is likely that nature is strengthened by principles and fundations aboue it's pitch to the end it may be a fit and sure proppe of faith and supernaturall
guifts But this point concerne's not our present discourse Nephew I confesse I now cleerely see that the Christian church hath conserued it self from error supposing that the Pastors and Gouernors of it haue carefully taken notice from time to time of their forefather's doctrine and I am beholden to you for this lesson But may not the church haue beene neglected herein Though I scarsely haue courrage enough to aske you this question for I see you will answere me that nature must needes haue it's recourse and that howsoeuer at some times or places it may haue defects yet must it of necessitie at other times and in other places haue it's returnes and freshly renew it's care and be sollicitous of so great a good which cannot but fall out once within 5. or 600. yeares that is within the terme prefixed wherein she may discouer the doctrine of hir forefathers cōstantly held and generally deliuered to be the doctrine of Christ ād his Apostles Neuerthelesse if you could shew me that the church had in effect so conserued it selfe I should be more able to conuince a peruerse opponent and demonstrate §. 8 That the truth of Christian doctrine hath actually continued in the church VNcle Is it possible you should be so vnreasonable as to aske me to proue a thing which depede's of ma's will yet that you may see how great the workes of Almightie God are and how nothing is so variable but that he can fixe and make it constant I will endeauour to let you vnderstād as much as my self in this point so you will be attentiue and raise a litle your vnderstāding to answere me in the waie of rigorous discourse which you haue some experience in by the mathematickes you haue tasted Tell me then doe you thinke that if anie great congregation of men now liuing hold this maxime for their faith and Religion that nothing is to be held for certaine and as a reuealed truth but what they haue receiued frō their forefathers as a thing deliuered by hand to hand from the Apostles And that what soeuer is not so receiued is not immutable but may be altered if reason commande doe you thinke I saie that this Congregation could in this our age haue begunne to hold this maxime or that as they receiued the rest of their doctrine from their forefathers they must not also haue receiued this tenet Nephew Truly I cannot tell you for me thinke's it were absurde to receiue all the rest from their forefathers ād take this of new which is the rule of all the rest yet I doe not see it so cleerely as that I am able to conuince that t' is so Vncle. Why cosen let vs put the case that there were a Generall Coūcell of all Christendome sitting for example in the yeare 1600. And aftermuch disputation about finding a rule to setle matters of Religion they should agree that to receiue nothing but what had beene deliuered vnto them by hand to hand frō Christ and his Apostles were the best waie to end all disputations of Religion and there vpon decree that hereafter nothing should be held for certaine and immutable but what were so receiued And that amongst these Bishops one should rise vp and make this difficultie we cannot know that anie thing is receiued by hand to hand from Christ vnlesse our forefathers who liued in the last age 1500. haue deliuered it vnto vs as such which they cannot haue deliuered vnto vs but by one of these two waies ether because we knowe they had this same principle which we seeke here ro setle to wit that they tooke nothing for immutably certaine and of faith but what was so deliuered vnto them And then we know what soeuer they haue deliuered vnto vs for a matter of faith was like wise receiued by them or atleast they thought it to be receiued in the same māner and therefore we may be confident of it Or else they must haue declared vnto vs what is so receiued what not that the one part may be accepted by vs and established as matters of faith the other held in lesse esteeme and as no points of faith This secōd we know hath not beene done And therefore if our forefathers had not this principle how should we haue it For if they had it not and haue deliuered our doctrine and Religiō vnto vs without distinctiō we must of necessitie accept much for Religion faith and as receiued frō Christ which we know not whether it was so or no And therefore wee must ether willfully deceiue our selues and our successors accounting and esteeming things which were neuer receiued from Christ to haue beene receiued from him and so falsly deliuer them for such to our successors and consequētly ground both our faith and theirs vpon this vntruth that our tenets were receiued from Christ Or else we must content our selues as our forefathers haue done and setle no new ground of ending cōtrouersies in Religion If one I saie should make this difficultie in that graue Assemblie would it not puzzell them all and put them of from their resolution Nephew Truly vncle it could not chuse vnlesse they were obstinately resolued to damne thē selues and all their posteritie and that impudently in the sight of the whole world which would reproach them with so notorious an imposture Nor can I imagine how such a position though once begunne should take roote The whole world being able to see ād deteste the indignitie of it And because I foresee your drift I will grāt you may frame the same argument for anie age ād cōsequētly there is no age in which this resolutiō could haue beene first taken vp but only in such an one in which it was cleerely knowne what the Apostles taught and what they did not by witnesse from thē who had their doctrine from their owne mouths that is the verie next age after the Apostles So that we may euidently conclude that a church which now holdeth with vniuersall consent this principle which you speake of must of necessitie haue held the same from the next age after the Apostles Vncle. But can you now tell me cosen whether this cōgregatiō as long as it adhere's to this principle can receiue anie thing of this nature and qualitie cōtrarie to what their forefathers deliuered vnto thē vpon this same principle And note I pray I doe not aske whether they can receiue anie thing but what they apprehēd to be so but I aske whether they can receiue anie thing as such but that which truly is so deliuered that is whether they can be cosened in this questiō Whether their forefathers deliuered it vnto them so or no. Nephew T' is euident they cannot For although one mā may be deceiued in what is tould him specially at one time yet to saie whole nations are deceiued in what is tould thē not once or twice but what they are bredd and beatē to is as much as to saie all men are deceiued
that how soeuer the common people doe not distinguish what is of Tradition and what is but of some learned men's opinioÌ„s neuerthelesse those whom we call Deuines if truly they be such as the name require's may aÌ„d doe distinguish positions of such different natures For Christian doctrine is not a bundle of loose positions as those who negligently looke on it may thinke but a true discipline hanging together by consequences and order tending to one end And of this doctrine and discipline some parts be such as cannot be knowne but by immediate reuelation others such as no sensible man can doubt of if he beleeue the former And learned meÌ„ know that of both these two the one is expresly deliuered by tradition the other is as firme as if it were so deliuered For as it was reueiled that our sauiour is truly God and man so euerie man of coÌ„mon sense knowes that he had two wills Deuine and human against the Monothelites Other points there may be which neede art and studie to deduce and fetch them out of the two former And of these likewise a true Deuine cannot be ignoraÌ„t being they are be fruits of learning and studie and consequently haue euer beene in the soules and writings of learned Masters And these points euerie one knowes who is conuersant in Logike and in iudging the qualities of such propositions as belong to scieÌ„ce And your self I am sure by the litle skill you haue therein and by the smale light of this discourse will eastly iudge that this is reasonable Nephew I conceiue your meaning but whereas you saie that the points of the second order are as firme as those which are deliuered by Tradition me thinke's that 's not reasonable sithence Tradition relye's wholy on God and his word but the other only vpoÌ„ man's discourse which is falible and easily mistaken and therefore must of necessitie be much inferior Vncle. I would not haue you take my words so precisely not in so rigorous a degree of comparison for so euen of demonstrations the precedent will be esteemed more certaine then that which is deduced out of it though in a morall eâ—tiâ—ation the certainties be equall And so it is in those two degrees for truly that litle discourse which is required for the second degree is infalible certaine and euident and therefore the knowledge proceeding froÌ„ it may well be rancked with the former degree But I suppose you expect to heare why it doth not follow that if a truth not deliuered by Tradition may neuerthelesse passe for such why I saie an errour may not haue the same progresse and surprise the church that is §. 11 Why no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God ANd this I will shew you in a word because it falleth into the repetitioÌ„ of what we haue alreadie discoursed on The impossibilities are three First it trencheth vpon the resolution wee formerly made that one man's authoritie could not preuaile against and ouer the whole church for this is the difference betwixt a truth and a false hood that a truth though it beginne from one yet may it be accepted of by all by reason of it's euidence Which when one hath laid opeÌ„ others may follow not for the man's authoritie but for the loue of the seene truth Whereas falsehood which cannot bring euidence with it must be bolstered vp by the man's credit aÌ„d reputation which you know is insufficient Secondly it is impossible an errour should generally preuaille by reason of the immutabilitie which is in the vniuersalitie of contingent causes whose particulars may be defectiue but the vniuersalls cannot So that as it is impossible in nature that all children should be borne with one eye all coltes with three leggs or the like so were it a monstrous accident and that in a higher and more immutable nature if an errour should generally preuaile and passe through all mankinde or through so great a part of it as we make accounte the Catholike church is and will euer be The third impossibilitie is because it trencheth vpon the stabilitie of Religion for sithence we agreed that t' is impossible for anie nation to haue no Religion and as impossible to change a true into a false And likewise that Christian doctrine hath the nature of science so farre as that no errour can fall into it but must bring contradiction and opposition against the principles and receiued practize of the church and so make a breach against the antient possession it doth therefore plainely appeare that as it is impossible for such a breach to become vniuersall in time and place so likewise must it needes be impossible that an vntruth should be vniuersally receiued for tradition hauing not beene deliuered as such Nephew I must confesse your reasons seeme good yet might one saie all your reasoÌ„s are but morall persuasions which may faile as if one should saie it is reasonable to thinke an honest man will not lye yet I doubt not but some times the coÌ„trarie happene's Wherefore I pray you tell me §. 12 Of what qualitie you thinke these your reasons and discourses be and whether you conceiue them to beare an absolute certaintie VNcle I feare it will be to farr on the night before I can satisfie your difficultie yet I will shew you breefly and familiarly what may suffice Tell me then doe you thinke there is such a towne as Rome or Constantinople Nephew That I doe I would I knew what I aske as well Vncle. Why who tould you there were anie such townes Nephew Truly I doe not remember who tould me so in particular but I haue heard so manie talke of them without doubting that it were follie to doubt of it Vncle. But if I or some other of whose honestie you doe not doubt should tell you we haue beene there and haue seene those townes with our owne eyes would you belieue it more certainely then you doe Nephew No in deede vncle for although I should in that case make no doubt of it yet their authorities vpon which I doe alreadie belieue it are no lesse nay farr greater seeing that if it were not fo manie more of no lesse credit and reputation must be lyars whoÌ„ though I cannot name yet nature tell 's me that if thousands had not reported it of their owne knowledge it could not passe so constaÌ„tly and vncontrowlably as is doth Vncle. But if a man should come with manie great reasoÌ„s and motiues to persuade you that there is not euer was anie such cities a we speake of Nay let vs suppose that if you liued but 20 myles from London where euerie day you fawe hundreth's come from theÌ„ce and your self had neuer beene there And there should come vnto you a man who should labour to shew by reason that it were a follie to thinke there were anie such towne as LondoÌ„ Or to make our supposition more strong suppose you had liued diuers yeares in London and had neuer seene
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and
the firmenesse of Tradition Nephew You tould me the Tradition of Christian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles and that not only in their vnderstandings but also in their wills and affectiōs and so cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were constantly persuaded there was no saluation without it This was done at the same time in manie Countries not knowing one of an other nor being able to correspōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher Vncle. Why now then cosen rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue against this your declaration of tradition Nephew As for Adam's children I see that one man and one woman were the only witneses of such a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue it was so strange Nay them selues had so litle experience of those strange things which they tould that for anie thing we know they neuer as much as tasted of anie fruit in Paradise but of the forbidden tree And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's seruice to their children and that only as lōg as they liued with them we know not so that it seeme's what they taught tooke no strong roote nor in manie For Noth the same answere may be giuen two of his sonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries or at least into such a distance as that they seldome came to see him Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Christ's Gospell and of the law of God to those fathers of the old Testament Vncle. Your remarkes are good ones And in deede seeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature We must see that it be plāted accordingly which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Christ's law but not in the tradition of the ould law the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great busines of the world's plantation Euerie mā seeking to plant countries build cities finde out commodities for the cōseruation of man's life Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen and things of the next world To this you may add that there was not then anie setled orders of Priests and men whose fūctiō should be to inculcate the necessitie of Religion into men's eares and harts which we knowe the Apostles had care to performe euerie where Againe there was no such correspondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in those times as hath euer beene amongst Christians specially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Christ hath set amongst vs. And no doubt but these two last points be two maine and cheefe causes of the propagation and conseruation of Christiā faith You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature so powerfully as since Christ's comming according to our yesternight's discourse So that the roote and strēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this that such a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of seuerall natiōs the examples faile in three things First that the multitude was not capable of it it being so spirituall and abstract Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of spirit assistance of the holy Ghost and abundance of continuall miracles as Christ's law was Thirdly that there was not a set forme and institution of Priests and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conseruation of their beliefe Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuersall Traditiō And by these examples you may easily answere all other obiections of this nature And now I will leaue you least I should ouer wearie both you and my self Nephew You saie well vncle yet that I may be sure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your instructions I pray let me see if I can make §. 15 The cōclusion of all our discourse IT was first your intention to giue me a rule how to gouerne my self in the choise of Religion Then you concluded that scripture could not be this rule Where vpon you laid me downe two waies how to resolue my self The first was that standing vpon the ground of prepossession there was no likelyhood or probabilitie that the Protestants arguments could be sufficient to ouer ballance the Catholikes because they must be conuincing cleerely or else were to be reiected And that the Protestants should bring anie cōuincing and demōstratiue arguments against the Catholikes there is no apparence Catholikes being more in number in qualitie greater schollers ād in life more vertuous And on the contrarie side Protestants hauing no principles or commāde which may make them agree amongst themselues And you shewd me that though this persuasiō did not euidently conuince the Catholike faith to be true yet did it manifestly proue that the Catholike was to be chosen by an vnlearned man Your second waye was by giuing a direct proofe that the Catholike doctrine is true which you did in threeseuerall manners First by shewing that it was no hard matter for the Catholike church to conserue the truth of hir doctrine if she were carefull which histories plainely shew she was Secondly shewing that nature doth force men to haue care of Religiō and therefore that it was impossible anie error should so creepe into the church as that it should be vniuersally receiued the verie nature of man and human affaires contradicting it's progresse Thirdly shewing how the church now relying vpon Tradition must of necessitie haue euer done so and that if it hath euer done so it could not let anie falsehood creepe in nor suffer anie error to be generally admitted This is all I remember sauing the soluing of some obiections and the discouering of some of my impertinent answeres which I hope you will excuse and forget If I haue missed I pray direct me Vncle. Yo haue taken good notice and I thinke my paines well bestowed only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and comparison betwixt the knowledge which we haue by these meanes and that which scripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye as in cōtrouersies we necessarily must And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in and vpon that which is common to all ages all nations all conditiōs But the knowledge which we haue by scripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation Hence spring's an other differēce to wit that the one is planted in nature and in what God created in man the other in what men them selues framed and that not by designe or art but by custome and chance Out of which againe ensueth that the one is capable of necessitie and consequently of a perfect demonstration as all naturall things are the other not The one is fixed vpon vniuersalls the other vagabonde in particulars As for example who is able to demonstrate that a word in controuersie hath no other sense then that which is necessarie for his pourpose Or where the constructiō may be made diuers waies that the true one is that which he pleadeth Who can demonstrate amōgst varieties of texts which was in the Autograph Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue And the like which ordinarily are necessarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we choose On the other side To shew that whole multitudes of seuerall nations cannot misse in what hath beene a thousand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them That a world cannot conspire to cosen their posteritie That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine against an euident principle which they likewise hold and mātaine these being the maximes Tradition depende's on to shew I saie these things there needes no deepe learning being both knowne of them selues and also as necessarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be and therefore may beare as good a demonstratiō as they which if we haue not it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the subiect but through the want of our looking into it and that ether because we doe not take the right waie or that we doe not bestow sufficient paines in the prosecution of it So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen which is impossible into those errors which the Protestants pretēde yet were it better for a man to content him self with the Good that remaines in it then to cast him self into an endlesse and fruitlesse maze of disputations with trouble to all the world ād that to no other effect then to make people vnsetled and by their vnnsetlednesse to neglect Religion But God's wisdome as you see hath prouided an Euidence for those that will take paines to seeke it 1. that the pointes in controuersie are of importance and necessarie to be knowne 2. that they cānot be so knowne by scripture as is requisite for decisions against contentious men and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by resting quiet in the bosome of the Catholike church which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying