seruants Gods witnesses that the Churches and their ministers did vnchristianly reuile them and their glorious sufferings For I haue giuen yee none other tearmes then the Churches gaue them And if in the chiefe poynts of Donatisme ye be not full Donatists and so holde sundry poyntes of Annabaptisme being fallen into their tents and as outragiously fighting against all Churches and with the same weapons that they did and with as blinde fury condemning them as those other let me be accounted for no better indéede than a lying Prophet Your words are many and great are your outcries but let vs see how well ye defend and cleare your selues by them from this most wicked intrusion into Gods office I set down first against ye that he doth wickedly and proudly thrust himselfe into Gods office which taketh vpon him to iudge and condemne any one man to be no true Christian which holding the place and dignitie of a brother in Gods Church and professing the fayth soundly studieth to please God for the common errors and frailties vnto which euen the most perfect are subiect because the holy scriptures speaking of the regenerate haue these sayings We know but in part 1. Cor. 13. who vnderstandeth his errors Psal 19. And in many things wee sinne all I am 3. Then how much more intollerable is their wicked presumption and intrusion into Gods office which take vpon them vtterly to condemne as quite separate from Christ all the assemblies in a kingdome which professing the Gospell haue many particuler members in them that earnestly indeuour to please God and are not spotted with any grosse errors or notorious offences Then further doe I alleadge that as a brother hath his place and dignitie in a Christian assemblie so our Church of England hath her place and dignitie among all the godly Churches which for the fayth that shee doth together with them publiquely professe and sincerely in all the principles and grounds of the holy Christian religion doe not only allow her the place but also do regarde and loue her giuing vnto her the dignitie of a sister yea euen of a mother in Israel because shee hath not beene barren but hath brought forth many deare children to God and not a few of them crowned with martyrdome Ye haue not Master Barrow answered one worde vnto al this but haue with déepe silence slipt past it But ye say He that is in his conscience conuinced of errors and doth persist in them is wilfully obstinate and so euidently declareth that he hath no faith And in this case yee say is the Church of England it holdeth errors and is conuinced in them and yet persisteth to defend and teach the same and therefore it is quite seperated from Christ Agaynst this I set downe that a brother offending is not to be iudged so wilfully obstinate as that he is to be cast forth and condemned to be but as an heathen because he is conuinced of his sinne and error by priuate admonitions and doth persist but when the admonition and censure of the Church is despised For our Sauiour sayth not If hee will not heare thee count him as an heathen or if thou take one or two with thee and â—e will not heare them But if he will not heare the Church then let him be vnto thee as an heathen Math. 18. This ye haue not answered for ye can shew no place in Gods word where this power is giuen to priuate men but onely to the Church And yet persist in this most horrible intrusion forgetting the precept Judge not that ye be not iudged Math 7. and he that condemneth his brother condemneth the lawe and thou condemnest the law thou art not an obseruer of the law but a Iudge Iam. 4. vers 11. And therefore we must heare enter into a larger discourse about it I will first sâ—t downe that which yee bring to mayntayne your doing We doubt not say you neither euer thought but the best Church that consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors yea wee doubt not but that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as he teâ—meth fundamentall the holding whereof should vtterly subuert the faith As in the Church of Corinth Galatia and Asia there were c. But this wee holde withall that no true Church or Christian will maintaine any sinne or error when it is euidently shewed and conuinced vnto them by the word of God c. To your second charge we answer that wee haue learned to put difference betwixt error and heresie All good men as is sayd doo and may erre but no good man will defend or persist in his error when it is shewed and conuinced vnto him Obstinacie ioyned vnto error after it is duely conuinced maketh heresie Further we say that any error being obstinatly holden and taught after it is duely reprooued and conuinced vnto him maketh an heretick and heresie in that partie or in that congregation that so holdeth and teacheth it doth separate from the faith and communion of Christ Wherefore we can but wonder at your ignorance who stand for a teacher in your Church and yet hold some errors obstinatly held and taught agaynst the trueth of GOD not to be heresies or at the least not to be fundamentall c. In these words Master Barrow which I doubt not ye will acknowledge lieth the whole defence and cléering of your selues from that wicked and presumptuous intrusion into Gods office which I haue layd to your charge I am sure that in your imagination ye vtter in them most diuine vndoubted principles or els how could yee bring in your conclusion of such wonder at mine ignorance standing for a Teacher in our Church Then must we stand and wonder each at other for I doo indeed greatly wonder to see how strong the illusions of Satan be when he is turned into the likenes of an Angell of light that such men as you taking vpon ye not to stand as teachers in some particular Churches but to controule all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue been since the Apostles as if yee were sent from heauen with speciall knowledge aboue all others should in so fewe words bewray so much confused palpable ignorance and absurd errors In very deede vnder this streame of words lieth one of the chiefe rocks vpon which ye are runne and against which ye cause many a simple soule to dash with great hazard leading them into the same wicked presumption agaynst God which your selues are fallen into The reader shall see plainly that here is no cléering your selues from that foule intrusion into Gods office vnlesse the heaping vp of errors may be déemed cléering I will begin first with the difference which ye say ye haue learned to put betwixt error and heresie The onely difference which ye make is the obstinate persisting in it and teaching it after it is conuinced vnto him
hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced It is out of all doubt that men which erre may â—e conuinced by any particular persons whatsoeuer for it is the power and light of Gods word onely which conuinceth but that which maketh men to be cast forth as heathen for obstinacie when they are conuinced is not as I haue shewed obstinacie agaynst pryuate admonitions but the despising the iudgement and power of the Church when she hath conuinced and reproued So that your passage is here agayne stopped and ye are cut off but yet I will follow ye in this yeelding this scope to see when or who they be of particular persons which haue duely conuinced the Church of England and al her assemblies of such errors First for the martyrs in our Church yee haue set them vpon the shore safely landed out of all danger of wilfull obstinacie for pag. 181. thus ye write These godly martyrs so lately escaped out of the smoakie furnace of the popish Church coulde not so clerely discerne and sodainely enter into the heauenly and beautifull order of a true established Church And those godly men being so vnexpert and vnexercised in his heauenly worke neuer hauing long liued in seen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church vpon the earth of so many hundreth yeares neuer since the generall defection of Antichrist no meruaile I say if they erred in setting vp the frame But what then should we persist in their errors especially should we reiect the true patterne of Christs Testament c. Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow in which the reader may see that ye haue as I say landed those godly men out of all daungers which set vp the frame of our Church because they did as you say nay they could see no better But our Church now can not be excused because she hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought Indéede I am of this minde to answere your wordes as they lye that right excellent men come short in some things about the ordering of Gods Church and especially at the beginning because time is a teacher But those men were not so blinde as you make them or so vnexpert in the heauenly worke Many of them liued long after they came out of popery They did read the scriptures both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement and all the auncient histories of the Church and in my iudgement might haue bâ—en able in those dayes after twenty years separatioÌ„ froÌ„ popery to see as much as some in these dayes that haue béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes Agayne I am of this mind that when any error in the Church appeareth it ought if it can bee brought to passe to be reformed And that they doo greeuously sinne which reiect the truth agaynst their knowledge and conscience to the dammage of Gods people but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced We must see who they bee that haue layd this patterne which ye speake of before her which was not layd before those blessed martyrs and conuinced here let vs come to the matter In some Ceremonies and in the manner of gouernment our Church doth differ from other Churches Those Churches indéede haue shewed their reasons why they vse not such ceremonies and gouernment but yet they condemne not our Church for not being perswaded by them for they do know that in some matters of controuersie it falleth out often that men may thinke they haue truth and be deceiued also that the truth may be shewed and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conscience vnto whom it is shewed This is your great ignorance Master Barrow which imagine that so soone as a truth is shewed in any matter the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conscience There were thousands in the Church of Ierusalem Act. 21. which erred groslie about the retayning the ceremoniall law and the holy Apostles were driuen to beare with them when they could not perswade them from it and that many yeares And who can conuince errors like the blessed Apostles And you must consider here further that euen those marryrs in our Church whom you so fully cleare had the same paterne layd before them then which our Church hath had layd before her since for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vsed at Geneua and in some other places and they did not onely reade their writings which shewed the reasons for the same but also some of them as Bishop Hooper and Archdeacon Philpot were trauailers euen to that ende and purpose and liued in some did see if not al yee some number of the reformed Churches beyond the seas Moreouer the rest of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches as Peter Martyr Bucer Fagius Alasco and others Howe ignorantly then and how falsely Master Barrow doo ye affirme that those godly martyrs had neuer liued in seene nor heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church If those martyrs had the very same patterne layd before them which hath béene layd since before our Church and were not conuinced Peradunture you will say it was nothing so fully and so clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church Then if I demaund here who they be that haue more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church and thus conuinced her whether your selues alone or partly your selues and partly others I suppose yee will take it but in parte vnto your selues let vs then begin with these other and then come to you The Church of England at the first as you coÌ„fesse set vp the frame as they were perswaded in conscience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word Since that there hath risen controuersie at home about some Ceremonies and obseruations and about the gouernement Reasons and allegations haue beene brought to shew that there be hurtfull things amisse in both and many are perswaded But now the visible Church of England the prince and all those which excercise the chiefe power therein haue stood and doe stand resolute that the ceremonies and obseruations are agreeable to Gods worde or at the least not contrary but tollerable and that gouernement is such as is by Gods word most fit and profitable for our Church They stand vpon their reasons and allegations for this And many thousands in the land both men and women which professe the Gospel and fayth of Christ either know not what the things in controuersie or if they doe knowe them yet are perswaded that our worship and gouernment are right Tell me then M. Barrow seeing ye confesse the martyrs were not conuinced how you know for certainetie that all these are conuinced in their conscience because matters haue béen more fully opened and so continue wilfully obstinate against the knowen truth Hath God giuen
vpon ye to abandon and forsake as vtterly separated from the faith and from the Communion of Christ all the assemblies of the Church of England and all the particular members of the same theÌ„ a thicke couering of darkenes which the bright countenance of the great Iudge will pearce through and scatter Ye lye in prison not as Christs poore afflicted seruants but for this grieuous and outragious sinne which no flesh is able to defend or mitigate and for sundry other abuses as shall appear by your bookes I saide that the fearefull end of one Boltom about twentie yeares past would not be forgotten You haue heard as you say pag. 208 that he reuolted and became a conformable member of our Church and so fel into that fearefull estate Seeke better information Master Barrow seeing the example may touch ye for the trueth is he did for the same causes that you doo vtterly coudemne the whole Church of England and was with sundry other separated from it And as it is constantly affirmed he was an elder in their secret Church and ofterward falling into deepe dispaire he could not be recouered but did hang himselfe The matâ—er which pressed him so sore was this that bee had iudged and condemned men better then himselfe Looke yee therefore vnto it in time and seeke repentance before the terror of God breake forth vpon ye and that it be to late for it is euident vnto all that haue any true light in them that your offence herein can haue no excuse or colour beare not your selues vpon other things in your bookes for it shallâ—ppeare that where yee thinke your selues most deuine there Satan hath most deepely deluded yee glorie not of any sufferings vnles yee will haue those also to glorie which are bound in bedliâ—â— Hauing thus finished about wilfull obstinacie we come now to the fower principall accusations which ye bring against our Church The first is that we worship God after a false manner our worship being made of the inuention of man euen of that man of sinne erronious and imposed vpon vs. And here came the booke of common praier into question I did drawe your accusation into a Sillogisme and you accuse me to be so full of legiet dâ— main that ye had neede to looke to my fingers for ye say I haue left out certaine of your words as namely these wilfully obstinate and imposed Touthing these words wilfully obstinate looke Master Barrow in the fourth and fift pages of my booke and see whether I did not answer them where you haue expressely set them downe looke also vpon your own booke now printed and you shall finde that both in the accusation you haue omitted these words wilfully abstinate and also passed by mine answer vnto them Now when these two that is the omitting the words and passing by the answer vnto them doo concurre here is a great shew of legier du maine on your part and yet you would lay it vpon me that haue not giuen the least suspitioÌ„ therof And for the word imposed you say I leaue it out and put c. in the place thereof I doo indeede setdowne c for these words erronious and imposed vpon them but doo I leaue them out in handling the matter Looke in the tenth page and see whether I doo not charge ye with an Annabaptisticall freedome which ye are not able to auoyde for this worde imposed Master Barrow looke vppon them learne modestie and blush if not for conscience yet that these things must now lie open to the view of the world And for the booke of common Praier although the question betwéene vs was not whether there bee faultes in it but whether it â—e as you tearme it a great pregnant Idoll full of heresies blasphemies a bominations whether there be any heresies in it And whether the best part of it be none other but a peece of swines flesh an abomination to the Lord Yet you charge me as flying the trial by the word of God when I stand to iustifie by the word of God that in deede there is neither Idolatrie heresie nor blasphemie in it much lesse that it is full of them or the best part an abhomination For in mine answers and defence I doo not vndertake to cleare it of all faults hauing no occasion to meddle in that controuersie but to shew that there are no such faultes but that both the faithfull people of God haue and mayerre in also euen christian gouernours and teachers which are to reforme the church that if any doo see and be perswaded that they be corruptions and faultes yet not of that qualitie or degree as that they may for the same separate themselues from the fellowship of those which art otherwise minded this is the thing which I haue taken vpon mee to defend And if you Master Barrow wil not become a ranke heretick as if it please God you shall not to maintaine this opinion that we may not ioyne in that worship where wee finde any imperfections and errors holden and not reformed why doo you with wonderment crie out that this so large an exception of imperfections is the odde and onely exception that euer you heard of And doo you in very deede Master Barrow thinke that no such exception is to bee made but that where any error doth appeare in the worship a man is to separate himselfe Nay you will say when it is reproued and continued in and not reformed then a man is to forsake that Church as vtterly fallen from the couenant of God For they be obstinate and denie reformation Tell me then what if those that be to reforme be perswaded it is no error What if a great part of the multitude be so perswaded that it is no fault and so bee of diuerse mindes Will you deeme that you haue more skill to conuince them then the Apostles had Or will you refuse to ioyne as the Apostles did ioyne with the Church in Ierusalem that held and continued in a grosse error Doo you not see how by this your doctrine you open the doore as wide vnto all Schismaticks as euer did the Donatists or the Annabaptists seeing there will euer be errors and some that cannot be made to see them Will you not see how you contrarie Saint Paule directly who in whole chapters almost as I haue noted before dooth labour nothing else but to perswade the Christians that held diuers opinions touching some things in Gods worship yet to ioyne together Rom. 14. and 15. what a multitude of words with your accustomed reuilings and slanders haue you here heaped vp But I will deale onely with that which is not answered alreadie You charged our Church with Romish fasts I charged you with falâ—e accusing because the Church of Rome most wickedly against the Crosse of Christ placeth the worship of God and the merite of eternall life in fasting which doctrine our Church vtterly condemneth You labour to shew faultes in
imbrace the Gospell when you giue them the names of those vile beasts and birds and especially when as this your most vile reproach reacheth not alone vnto all the assemblies in England but also vnto all the holy Churches which haue imbraced professe the glorious Gospell For all the Churches haue the Psalmes in meeter which they sing in their publick assemblies and their prescribed leiturgies which ye make so horrible Moreouer yâ— people in other Churches you make to be but prophane multitudes as in the assemblies of England as we shall afterward see where you charge master Caluine at Geneua that with ignorance and rashnes and disorderly procéedings hée at the first â—ash made no scruple to receaue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the church which you terme a confuse route c. A pernicious example vnto all Europe whome then haue you called Wolues Foxes Dogs Owles c Your tongs are your own who is Lord ouer yee Psalm 12. Your sufferings are for Christ so are theirs which lye bound in bedlem I doo not doubt but that in sundry places the Psalmes in Mâ—tremisse of the strict sence so no doubt do their Psalmes in any Church but yet there is nothing in them vnholy or disagréeing from the truth All the knowledge which you haue is wholly from the writings expositions and translations of those whom you cerine Owles Vultures Dogs Foxes c. For take away the translations of the Bible and what could you hauesâ—n And where had you the direction vnto the sight of those things which you hold in truth but from the writings of others Would you make vs beléeue that you had found them out of your selues In déede your vnsound and crased principles vpon which you ground are your own and nothing else And yet as if you had all knowledge in the fountaines of the holy Scriptures and knew a right sense and scope in them which none besides your selues haue attained vnto you reprehend the Psalmes as well concinnate to the eare but nothing to the sense and also the preachers as not rightly deuâ—â—ing the word If you had shewed some one Psalme for in example first in laying open the natiue sense wherein yet for all your great brags you must trust Tremellius because some one word wrong translated may carry the sense another way and then how the méeter hath wholly swarued from the same it had béen somewhat If you haue any true grammer sense of the Psalmes for that is it which we estéeme as the ground of truth or of the rest of the Scriptures which you haue not from such Owles and Foxes as Master Tremellious Beza and other translators we would be glad to know it But remember what is said of some that they are swelling waues of the sea foming out their owne shame what greater shame and discredit can there be then for men to fall into such insolency and swelling that being grosly ignorant hauing no knowledge but through the helpes ministred by others yet take vpon them as if they weresent from heauen as the onely men that haue séeâ—e the true light This is no excessiue spéech séeing yâ—â—â—â—erâ—â— in many things condemne all Churches and their learnedst reachers â—eâ— the reader considet of the prophanenes and falsehoode of your other spéeches of the preacher going to his géere and not offending any and such like I doo not know Master Barrow what your former conuersation hath béeâ— but by your spéeches â— man would iudge that you had spent your time rather in the societies of â—arding and dicing then in the â—câ—â—â—lâ— of Christ here therefore I conclude that with ignorance falsehood and prophane impiety ye accuse our worship to be blasphemous and Idolatrous Thus much for the first transgression now to the second The second is that the prophane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with vs receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of our Church In your preamble Master Barrow you doo but babble and that vpon your owne surmises contrarie to my plaine words and whether against your conscience looke you for I doo not allow euill ministers nor their admitting of open notorious sinners vnto the table of the Lord. And when I said the Church of Englang dooth not allow the same I speake of the established publick order by the consent of the whole land which is both for the godlines of the ministers repelling the notorious offendors from the Sacrament Moreouer we doo not at any hand allow your arguments which are drawne from the principles of Donatisine as namely that wée must separate our selues where wée sée any swarue from their duety and offend The reason which you brought to prooue this second transgression as you sayd at once I reduced into forme of Sylogisme thus where all are receiued in by baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication there all the prophane multitudes are without exception of any one person receiued into retayned in the bosome and bodie of the Church But in the Church of England all are receiued in by Baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication Therefore in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes without the exception of any one person are receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of the Church Here you complayne and that grieuonsly that I did frame this argument after mine owne conceipt as I might best deale withall and then did proceede to confute you The falsification which you charge me so sore withall is that I haue put in a newe minor proposition as namely the whole bodie of the Church of England for the particular asseblies It is a straÌ„ge case to see the witte of some man what great 〈…〉 â—hee can contriue if men will giue credit He that is 〈◊〉 whether it be bysome one assemblie which 〈◊〉 â—ower or by the whole bodie of a Church in a kingdom is â—â—e not cast forth Did not Esra with the Princes and Elders of Israel publish a Proclamation that hee that should not come vp to Ierusalem within three dayes should bee separated from the congregation of the multitude that came out of captiuitie Esra 10. ver 8. this was excommunication Moreouer where you sayd that the Parson and his parish hath not the power to cast forth any by excommunication I did not let this passe but tolde you that it is not meete that the Parson and his parish should haue this power to excommunicate vnlesse it be such a parish as hath the consistory of Pastors and Elders I gaue you the example of the Church of Geneua where euery seuerall flock hath a Pastor but yet these Pastors and their flocks haue not the power to excommunicate Why doo not you then if you will answere prooue by the worde of God that euery particular flock in a kingdome or region is of necessitie for the being of a Church to
haue this power whole and seuerall by it selfe I take it you shall neuer be able to prooue that it ought to be much lesse shall you be able to prooue them to bee no true Churches which haue not in euery seuerall congregation established the power of excommunication For touching excommunication there be Churches which are true Churches of Christ which haue it not nor iudge it needefull Master Beza in his booke against Erastus pag. 2. sayth that he was charged by some to esteeme them to be no Churches which wanted excommunication or such a Presbyterie which was vniustly layd to his charge as he sayth the perpetuall conuiction of him and those Churches did sufficiently witnes You haue more worke in hand here Master Barrow then you bee wate of For if you had proued that the Church of England hath no power to excommunicate yet there remayneth a further thing which is not so easie as you take it to bee conuinced namely that it is no true Church of Christ which hath no excommunication All Churches are against you in this poynt and the light of the truth will be as strong agaynst you as it hath beene agaynst the Annabaptists Here you make the chalenge anewe and say If I would vouchsafe to take mine aduersaries with me into the field and giue them leaue to bring and to vse their owne weapons I answere that for all your outcries yet there hath been no one weapon taken from ye nor yet cut shorter That speciall weapon which you now haue drawen and burnished wherein you repose your trust is this Where all the prophane and vngodly are receiued into and retayned in the Church as members thereof there cannot bee sayd the true established Church of Christ But in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes vngodly of the land were receiued into are retayned in their Church as members thereof Therefore the Church of England in this estate cannot be sayd the true established Church of Christ You doo here conclude a new question for there may bee a true Church of Christ and yet not in all things rightly or truly established Agayne there be foure terminie in this your Sylogisme because this clause all the prophane vngodly is taken more largely in the maior then it is in the minor or else your maior is false also the scriptures which you quote falsely applied It is certain that God did separate his Church from the Heathen Nations that did not call vpon his name Such were not compelled to enter But if you looke vpon the Church of Israel the Nation of the Iewes which had the couenant when they fell into Idolatry and horrible impietyes you shall see that all the godly Kings of Iuda that reformed and restored the true worship of God compelled all to the same Doo you reade that the Idolaters or their seede which still after a sorte professed the God of Abraham and had the seale of the couenant vpon them were cast foorth You may sée in the Prophet Sophonie that in the dayes of the godly King Iosias many of those Idolaters did turne but feynedly for feare of punishment and secretly worshipped Idoles The nation of England did professe Iesus Christ and were all sealed with the seale of the couenant but yet ouerwhelmed generally in Idolatry and many horrible sinnes Our Noble Quéene Elizabeth placed by God vpon the Regall throne compelleth them all being her subiects according to their vow in Baptisme to renounce Idolatry and to imbrace the holy fayth and Religion of Christ appoynting sharpe penaltyes for such as shall obstinately persist either in Idolatrie or other horrible sinnes Now tell me Master Barrow what doth she herein other then the godly kings of Iuda did She receiueth not in nor compelleth Turkes Iewes or heathen but onely such as are Christians by profession And therefore you may see that if you will haue your maior proposition agree with the Scriptures it must needes be taken more largely than your minor And thus you are come forth into the field with your choyce weapon which deceiuethye vtterly But yet here to make some face of true zeale you reckon vp a number of horrible sinnes Indeede God requireth that al his seruants should vtterly abhorre and condemne such vices and speak against them but he alloweth not any to take occasion thereby to condemne his Church Such vices abound but yet there are many thousands which cannot â—e charged with any one foule vice whose conuersation in the profession of the true fayth is hath been with much more sobrietie and modesty then yours Master Barrow vnlesse your time past haue beene better spent then the present And when God shall open your eyes his terror shall be vponye ye shall know that I haue not by the deuill blasphemed yee but shewed by Gods worde that you haue with horrible presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate and with most sauage crueltie sought to rend vp and to teare the Lordes tender plants In the next place commeth the Baptizing the Children of prophane men which professe Christ and remaine in the Church Here Master Barrow you are in a wonderfull displeasure and can not satisfie your selfe with all the varietie of odious tearmes which you doe euen fome out The heresie which I haue vttered about this matter is so foule as you take it that after many extreame wordes you say you may by the direct warrant of Gods word hold me and mine ordinary most heynous falsefiers and corrupters of the whole law and worde of God most blasphemous and peruitions false Prophets A man would thinke at the reading of these words that the whole Church were on fire especially if I should repeate but the one halfe of your speeches but that we know Master Barrow it is but your fashion If it please God he may giue you some spark of modestie But touching the matter it selfe I did affirme that the children of prophane men which remayn in the Church professing Christ whether they bee close hypoerites or openly wicked in conuersation do belong to the couenannt are to be baptized so that the Church take care for their instruction and education in the true fayth Your cauills here about verball confession which God alone can iudge about parish assemblies which are members of a Church though euery one by it selfe seuerally hath not the full power and so to becalled a Church about expresse contrariety error and sacriledge in my proposition as you say are not worth the mention Touching the Scriptures which I alleage to prooue that the interest in the couenant doth not depend vpon the syncere fayth or godlines of the next parents youcrie out of so many errors mischines and blasphemies that you doubt not as you say to pronounce and reiect these doctrines of this false Prophet most blasphemous and deuilish But now if it be true which I say and proue agaynst whom haue you powred foorth your poyson And what bring
when you haue a long time taken on you yéeld the whole matter vnto Master Doctor Some For what hath he said more then that it was and is true Baptisme touching the outward washing Doth he euer say that all which had the true sâ—ale had also the inward grace And for warding the blow of flat schisme it is a very weake blow The Romish Antichrist vsurped an vniust power and tyrannie and brought in many most wicked abominations cannot the Churches cast him foorth with his inuentious but they commit Schisme Can any thing be more friuolous Are all seuerall kingdomes tied vnto Rome or shall we be tied to ioyne where there be some remnants of a Church with Idolatrie And concerning the rest your self do in effect now confesse that some part of Christs ministry remaineth in the popery when you say that their Baptisme concerning the outward washing is true Baptisme And moreouer what should be we dispute not but this proueth that the true seale of Gods couenant is giuen to open Idolaters For the seale is the same in it selfe but the Idolater hath not the fruite of it vntill he come to true faith And so your next absurdities fall off themselues séeing the hauing of the true seale that is the outward washing in Baptisme dooth not make the papists true Christians nor proue that Gods couenant of peace and loue dooth belong to the Romish harlot so many among them as come to true faith receiue that vse of the seale All this I say dooth follow vpon your owne confession who build with the one hand and breake down with the other But it passeth all the rest that then Christ must néeds haue diuers seuerall bodies or else he cannot stand an head to thrée so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England and the Church of Geneua Why Master Barrow you wil not deny but that to the elect in the Church of Rome Christ is the head And this is further to be noted that when we speak of a visible Church we speake not of men alone but of Gods ordinances And so touching the holy Sacrament of Baptisme in the Church of Rome and so much of the truth as remaineth Christ is the Author of them and so standeth the head of his own he is not the head of the Apostasie or to the wicked inuentions So then in all Churches Christ is the Author and head of that which is his ordinance and of those which belong vnto him What blasphemies are then hereby allowed And if the Papists haue quite ouerthown the one Sacrament by turning it from a Sacrament into a Sacrifice propitiatory what reason is it therefore to say Baptisme is ouerthrowne We must yet a little further deale about the Church of Rome because you make all our people to be but as heathen without the couenant and not rightly entred to become a visible Church but all receiued in at the sound of her Maiesties trumpet I say our people stood vnder the couenant before as a part of the visible Church and that our soueraigne Quéene did not compell those which before were not vnder the couenaÌ„t to become the church but by her regall power giuen vnto her of God banished the vsurped power of Antichrist abolished Idolatry and compelled her people hauing receaued the seale of the couenant and professing Christ to receiue also the true doctrine This was not to begin a Church but to reforme a Church hereupon it falleth out in question whether the Church of Rome were the visible Church of Christ in time of Idolatry It is vsually said that the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church I said we may rather say to speake more plainely the papacy was in the Church because Antichrist who brought in all the papacy erected his throne in the Church You begin with this Master Barrow and say that I hold it not enough to affirme with the learned deuines that the inuisible Church of God is in the papacy as in all other places of the world because God hath his elect there and in all other places but to be singular I haue inuerted the proposition and say that the papacy is in the Church O Master Barrow it is your bold ignorance as in all other matters Who be those learned diuines that when they say the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church doo meane no more but that there be Gods Elect as in other places of the world If you haue any modesty bring forth some one learned deuine which is of that iudgement I did like rather to say the papacy is in the Church then to say the Church is in the papacie because I sée diuers doo mistake it as though it were onely meant that in the papacy there are Gods Elect and no further that is no outward visible Church in any respect I doo not differ any iot in the spéech from the sense which Master Caluine and others doo giue for when I say the papacy is in the church but the papacy is not the church by the papacy we must néeds vnderstand that vsurped tyranny of the Pope and his Clergy with all their abominable inuentions By the Church we may not vnderstand only Gods Elect but also so much of Gods ordinances as remaine not only in the points of doctrine and publike profession of the name of Christ but also in the holy Baptisme the seale of the couenant which all haue and may so farre be called the visible Church That the papacy should inuade the visible Church remaine in it and not vtterly or quite destroy it I did alleage that Saint Paule saith Antichrist should sit in Gods Temple Now let vs see whether this bée not the meaning of the most learned diuines when they say the Church is in the papacy Master Caluine handleth this point in the fourth booke of his Institutions Chap. 2. section 11. 12. Which booke though it be in our language yet is it little read and studied of our people as the weakenes and readines of many to be seduced by hereticks and Schismaticks dooth euidently declare I will set downe his words for such as haue not the booke But yet as of old time saith Master Caluine among the Iewes there remained certaine peculiar prerogatiues of the Church so doo wee not at this day take from the papists those steppes of the Church which God would haue to remaine among them notwithstanding the dissipation God had once made his couenant with those Iewes that same couenant did continue vpholden by the stablenes of it selfe as it were wrastling against their impietie rather then kept of them Such therefore is the certainty and constancy of Gods goodnes that there remained the couenant of the Lord neither could his faith giuen be made voyde by their vnfaithfulnes neither could circumcision be so prophaned by their impure hands but that it was still the true signe and Sacrament of his couenant Whereupon
the Lord called the Children which were borne vnto them his sonnes Ezech. 16. which nothing at all perteined vnto him but by a speciall blessing So when he hath left his couenant in France Italie Germany Spayne England since these Prouinces haue beene oppressed with the tyrannie of Antichrist yet that his Couenant might remaine inuiolable he first there preserued Baptisme the testimony of his couenant which being consecrate with his owne mouth retaineth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlines of man then furthermore he hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there should other remnants also remaine least the Church should vtterly perish And as oftentimes buildings are so pulled downe that the foundations and ruines remaine so hee hath not suffered his Church to be subuerted by Antichrist euen from the foundation or to be laide euen with the ground howsoeuer to punish mens ingratitude which had despised his word he hath suffered horrible shaking and dissipation to chance but euen after the laying wast hee would haue the building remaine halfe pulled downe Whereas therefore wee will not simplie graunt to the Papists the title of the Church we doo not therefore deny that there bee Churches among them but onely wee contend about the true and lawful ordering of the Church which is required both in the Communion of the holy things which are the signes of the profession also of doctrine most chiefelie Daniel and Paule foretold that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God among vs wee account the Bishop of Rome the Captaine and standerd bearer of that wicked and abominable Kingdome That his seate is placed in the Temple of God thereby is meant that his Kingdome shall be such as may abolish neither the name of Christ nor of the Church Hereby therefore it is manifest that we denie not but that there remaine Churches also vnder his tyrannie but yet such as hee hath prophaned with sacrilegious impietie such as hee hath afflicted with outragious dominion such as he hath corrupted and almost killed with euill and deadly doctrines as it were with poysoned drinkes in which Christ lieth halfe buried the Gospel ouerwhelmed godlines expelled the worship of God almost abolished furthermore in which all things are so confused and out of order that there appeareth the face of Babylon rather then of the holy citie of God Briefelie I say they be Churches in as much as the Lord dooth there merueilouslie preserue the remnants of his people howsoeuer miserably dispersed and scatred and in as much as there remaine some badges or seales of the Church and these especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the diuell nor the wickednes of men can destroy but on the other side because those notes or markes are blotted out which wee ought chiefely to respect in this controuersie I say that euerie one of their assemblies and the whole bodie wanteth the lawfull forme of a Church Thus farre be Master Caluines words tell me now Master Barrow is Master Caluine to be accounted among the learned Diuines Dooth he say the Church is in the papacy that is no more but that the Elect are among them as in other places of the World Looke also what I haue said touching this whole matter which he dooth not here say yea euen from that which is in Ezechiel 16. Where you aske who but this peruerse fellow speaking of me could thus stumble and cauill at those words my sonnes and my daughters c But if it bee not plaine enough which Master Caluine saith in this which I haue recited to proue that you would beare the simple in hand that the learned Diuines are of another minde and yet vnderstand not their minde I will adde a little more out of the same Author In his Epistle 404. thus hee writeth Quòd ecclesiae reliquias manere in papatu dico nō restringo ad electos qui illic dispersi sunt sed ruinas dissipatae ecclesiae illic extare intelligo Ac ne mihilongis rationibus disputandum sit nos pauli autoritate contentos esse decet qui Antichristum in temple deisessurum pronuntiat quamquam hoc rationibus satis validis me probasse puto ecelesiam licet semiruptam imo silubet diruptam ac deformem aliquam tamen manere in papatu In that I say the remnants of the Church remaine in the papacy I doo not restraine it to the Elect which are dispersed there but I meane that the ruines of a dispersed Church are extant among them And that I may not dispute the matter with reasons at large it becommeth vs to be content and satisfied with the authority of Paule which pronounceth that Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God Albeit I suppose I haue proued this with reasons strong enough that there remaineth neuerthelesse some Church in the papacy although halfe broken downe or if you will broken downe and deformed Also Master Beza Epistle 81. page 356. For the remnants of the Church in the papacy is of the same minde affirming that there remaine not onely Gods Elect but also the Sacrament of Baptisme and sundry poynts of sound doctrine Now let vs see what horrible blasphemies you say will followe of this that I say Antichrist should sit in the Church and yet the same remayne still the visible Church so farre foorth as Master Caluines words and Master Bezaes doo import For when you will needes haue it that God hath giuen me vp into a reprobate sense the matter toucheth not me so much as Master Caluine and Beza and many other most worthie men which so expound it Nay if God open your eyes you shall see whether you doo not like Rabsaka reproach the Lord God who hath vttered it by his Apostle The first is this If Antichrist may be sayd to sit raigne and remayne in the Church of God then Christ is not made heire and Lord of all and set as King vpon Mount Sion A worthie collection is it not because God in righteous iudgement for the punishment of those that receiued not the loue of the trueth giueth power vnto Satan and Antichrist to seduce the multitude in the visible Church Christ is not heire of all things nor raigneth as K. vpon Mount Sion Wil you say if the diuell haue a kingdome in the world Christ is not Lord of the whole world Mount Sion may be vsed for the visible Church but most properly for the inuisible which is the Communion of Saints of which are none but the elect Satan and Antichrist are not able to pluck one of these out of his hand he raigneth ouer them and in them Moreouer he raigneth ouer the whole visible Church and ouer the whole world for hee is ascended and filleth all things so that Satan Antichrist and all Tyrants can proceed no further then his will The next is If Antichrist sit in the Church then Christ is either cast out of his house made subiect vnto Antichrist or els deuideth with him Christ
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
themselues to the Priests Luk. 17. 14. which were also to offer according to the law And this was not long before he suffered You do very fondly imagine the if the Priests the Scribes and Pharisies and Saduces and the multitude which claue vnto them were the visible Church then were there two Churches vnles we will denie that our Sauiour his Disciples were the Church For at y◠time they were all in the same visible Church euen those open wicked and the good Our Sauiour doth reprehend them and layeth open their wickednes to the end that men might beware and not be seduced and kept from truth by them But why are they not cast forth The Prophets in olde time did sharply reprehend the wicked of all sorts in the Church but they had not the ordinary power to execute the censure of excommunication no more had our Sauiour himselfe There be diuers testimonies and examples of the holy scriptures which I alledged to proue this thing which you knitte vp short but in your other booke you deale in them at large And because Master Caluine hath written strongly and plentifully in these matters against the Annabaptists and such as most wickedly did condemne the Churches in his time you take vpon you to confute him as if he were the author of these things and you tearme vs his wretched disciples Whereas in very déede M. Caluine followeth but the steps of the auncient writers Augustine and the rest agaynst the Catharists and Donatists And you lighting into their Tents set very freshly vpon the worke euen as a chiefe Captayne to repayre and fortifie the ruines of that auncient Catharisme and Donatisme and yet can bring nothing which they brought not Touching the reformation by Princes which compell their subiects that professe Christ and haue the seale of the couenant to forsake Idolatrie and to imbrace the holy word and Sacraments I haue spoken before and therefore I come to the 17. page of your booke where you write after this sort The next shiftes these Balaamities haue for the aministring vnto and Communicating with and retaining the prophane in the bosome of their church are certaine arguments drawne by Master Caluine from Matth. 13. against the Annabaptists comparing the church to a corne field where the good seed and the bad grow together to a net and in Matth. 3. To a floar where the corne and the chaffelye together In deed Master Barrow these were speciall places which the auncient Fathers stood vpon against the Donatists and Master Caluine against the Annabaptists and which we in as great right vrge against you and your sect If we bee Balaamites then what was Master Caluine what was Augustine and all the rest Against whome haue you powred foorth your railings Take héede it be not against our Lord Iesus himselfe being against his expresse word for let vs sée how you can auoyde these places Touching the parable of the séed you oppose as you say against Master Caluine and his Disciples first the interpretation of our Sauiour himselfe who saith not that the field is the Church but the field is the world And so the good séed and the bad are together in the world but not in the Church And then you shew an absurditie of flat contradiction of the holy Scriptures which would follow if we take it that the good séed and the bad should grow together in the Church The contradiction is this there is power and commaundement giuen to the Church to cast forth the open wicked and here he bids let them alone Therefore this let them alone let them grow together vntil the haruest must néeds be expounded let them alone and let them grow together in the world but not in the Church In déed your exposition Master Barrow is the very same which the Donatists made and obstinately stoode vpon The field is the world our Sauiour hath said it the truth hath saide it accursed be he that shal gainesay it but to gather from hence that the good séed and the bad shal not be together in the church but in the world is directly to ouerthrow the whole parable For first what is it which is resembled or likened The words are plaine it is the Kingdome of Heauen The Kingdome of Heauen saith he is like c. What is it which is here called the Kingdome of Heauen is the world so called Who dare say so It is the Church in which there is the Gospell of the Kingdome and in which Christ dooth raigne If our Sauiour had ment to sec forth and to resemble the state of the world by the good séed and the bad mingled together as he saith the enemy did sow the tares ana mes◠tou sitou in the middest or among the wheate and that they grew vp together or to say looke how in a field good séede and bad grow together so in the world good men and bad it could not then be saide the Kingdome of Heauen is like but the state of the world is like Was it euer heard of that a man would expound a parable that is a similitude and exclude that which is resembled by the similitude For if the good séed and the bad sowen and growing together in the field do not resemble and set forth the state of the visible church while it is also in the field that is to say in this world mingled of good and bad men shew what there is in the whole parable whereunto the Kingdome of Heauen is likened Moreouer in the exposition of the parable our Sauiour saith as the tares are gathered and burned so shall it be in the end of this world the sonne of man shall send his Angels which shall gather out of his Kingdome all offences and those which worke iniquitie c. If they shall be gathered out of his Kingdome which is his Church peculiarly so called though he be Lord of Heauen and earth then are they vntill the end of the world in his Church I doubt not Master Barrow but that simple men yea poore Children looking vpon this parable and considering what it is likened and how Christ dooth expound it shall bée able to sée what a spirit of giddines God hath in iudgement cast vpon yée for the loftines of your mindes And now for that absurdity of flat cóntradiction in the Scriptures which you imagine if wee expound it that the good and the bad shall bee mingled in the church so long as it is in the field There is no such thing as I will shew by as great an absurdity which will follow of that sense which you giue for speaking of the wicked in the Church if he should say let them alone it would ouerthrow the censures Ecclesiasticall which are expressely commaunded then speaking of the wicked in the world and saying let them alone let them grow together least ye pluck vp the wheat it should ouerthrow the power of Kings and rulers in putting euil dooers to
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry