there is no true Christian man that is voyde of Gods spirite for he that hath not the spirite of Christ is none of his Rom. 8. yet may euery true Christian erre and be deceaued in some thinges This your sophisme consisteth in speaking confusely of Gods spirite as though the gifte of it were alwayes but one whereas it is one in the whole Church and another in euery particular true Christian man For neither do we argue simply of Gods spirite but of Gods spirite so as it is the spirite of trueth and of all trueth Ioan. 14. My Father sayth our Comforter at the instante of his departure will giue you another Comforter to remayne with you for euer the Spirite of trueth And after in the same Sermon I haue yet many thinges to saye vnto you but you can not now carry them but when the Spirite of trueth commeth he will teache you all trueth This place we saye must néedes be vnderstoode of the whole Churche 1. Tim. 3. and of a gifte conuenient to make her as she is saide to be the Piller of trueth because it is euident that euery one member of the Churche by him selfe may erre and in that case néedeth no more but the Spirite of obedience to heare her whiche hath suche a Spirite or gifte that she can not erre And this is ynough to make that no damnation be by erring to them that are in Iesus Christ that is which haue his spirite Rom. 8. so that sayth he they walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite and namely in this case after this spirite of obedience as I haue said Thus muche by occasion though my purpose is not here neither to alleage places nor to defende the alleaged but onely to answere the enemies allegations Now that the Church may be diuorced his allegation is this The visible Church Ar 79. by Idolatrie and superstition may seperate her selfe from Christ and be refused of him as God speaketh by Esay to the Church of Ierusalem Cap. 1. How is the faythfull Citie become an harlot It was full of iudgement and iustice lodged therein but now they are murtherers Thy siluer is become drosse and thy wine is mixed with water Thy princes are rebellious and companions of théeues c. Euen so may he say to the Church of Rome May he forsooth but whether doth he say so vnto it or doth the Prophet say that he may you are too too ignorant in the Scriptures if you know not the difference herein betwene the Synagoge of the Iewes the Church of Christ to wit that the Synagoge with her Ierusalem might be should be diuorced but that the Church of Christ with her Ierusalem which is Rome if you haue any sight in the Actes of the Apostles should neuer nor neuer might nor may be diuorced but contrariwise should beginne in the faythfull Iewes being a very small number in respect and so call in all nations euen Plenitudinem gentium Rom. 11. Mat. 13. The fulnes of al nations fishing for that purpose in the wide Sea of this world continually without any intermission in so much that immediatly after that all Nations or Gentiles be entred in Omnis Israel saluus fiet All the Iewes euen their fulnes also shall be Christned in the end of the world To this place pertaineth this strange imagination of his and his fellowes that euen the Church of Christ it selfe should prepare the way to Antichrist inuenting forsooth or receyuing of others inuention all the superstitions all the errors all the heresies that haue bene or may be euen vnto playne defection Apostasie Whereas the cleane contrarie is most euident and notorious that the Church should and hath as the piller of trueth from time to time accursed and commaunded vs to accurse all the heresies that haue bene yea and with due animaduersion noted vnto vs al errors whatsoeuer of her owne Doctors also who them selues sometime and in some things some of them haue erred as men Therfore against this most certayne cleare truth what alleageth these Heretikes for their most fonde and most absurde imagination aforesaid Diuinitie vvithout Scripture It is the totall summe of all their newe Diuinitie yet no warrant at all haue they for it out of Scripture Ar. 35. Many abuses and corruptions saith Fulke were entred into the Church of Christ immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist But let vs heare your Scripture for it Ar. 38. The Scripture telleth vs sayth he that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the * Generall is your vvâ—rd noâ— S. Paules Generall defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thes 2. But doth the Scripture tell you that it wrought in the Church of Christ No word so It wrought in the Persecutors of the Church of Christ and in the sundry Seducers that arose agaynst the doctrine of Christes Church as now it worketh in your Heresie béeing as it shall appeare anone the very next and vltima or at the least penultima Mysticall working before the Reuelation it selfe Next of all what haue you for this that the Church of Christ is always a contemptible companie D. Allens Demaund was Ar. 8â— Let the aduersarie shew that Christes onely kingdome should become so contemptible You alleage certayne places for answere and conclude vpon them saying So that the Church in the sight of the world hath alwayes bene most base and contemptible though in the sight of God and his Saintes 1. Cor. 1. Gal. 6. Rom. 1. most glorious and honorable Alwayes you say but your places import not alwayes Some of them conteine that her Crosse and her Crucifixus are condemned of the world that is of the Infidels But that may be and yet the Church not be in their sight a contemptible companie Euen as we Christians contemne the Turkes Mahometane Religion and the old Romaines Pagane religion for one of their goddes was a goose yet no man I trow will say they were or these are now a base and contemptible coÌ„panie An other of your places is this You shall be hated of all men for my names sake Mat. 10. As though it must néedes be alwayes a base contemptible companie which is hated of all sorts of men or euen then also when it is so hated Doth it séeme vnto you that it was of contempt that the Romane tyrantes so persecuted the Romane Bishops and their Christian flocke so vehemently all the first 300. yeres Cyp. epist 52. n. 3. Haue you not read what S. Cyprian writeth of Decius the Emperour Multo patientius tolerabilius audiebat leuari aduersus se aemulum principem quà m constitui Romae Dei Sacerdotem To heare that an Emperour was set vp against him that sought his Crowne he was much more patient then that in Fabianus place whom he had martyred another should
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
Scriptures and declare in their writinges that by them they are to be confuted for examples sake of a great number I will alleage a fewe and he alleageth Hilarius Basilius Magnus Chrysostome Augustine Leo the first Bishop of Rome and the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt And so concludeth saying Thus I haue declared by ensample and authoritie of these fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the Scripture If onely by the scriptures See cap. 9. par 2. pag. Ar. 52. so much the better you doe like of her and that in this Chapter nothing misliketh me Now let vs see what he confesseth of the auncient Monkes also The Church of God saith he hath alwayes had Scholes or Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning for the first colledges of Monkes in solitarie places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were afterward as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appeareth by Chrisostom in his booke de Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the Church as he him selfe was afterward Also in the Bishops house was a Colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great vniuersitie of learned men Whether S. Chrysostome S. Basill and those other auncient Monkes both in our owne and also in other countreys were nothing else but studentes it is not the question of this place See cap. 10. dem 25. pag. but onely doe I note here that he confesseth them to haue bene of the Church of God Then as concerning the times first of persecution afterward of peace vnder the Emperours both heathen and Christian he vttereth his confession of the true Church in these wordes Our assemblies were kept in secret places Ar. 51.52 long time after Christes ascension in most Countries that were subiect to the Romane Empire and when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and Seruice Also necessarie furniture for the seruice of God was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors that were of our Church before the reuelation of Antichrist that is as before you heard his meaning before the time of Bonifacius the thirde Pur. 342. Likewise in an other place he confesseth both those Caues and Vaultes vnder the earth that the olde Christian Bishops were content to serue in before the time of Constantine and also those princely buildinges that by Constantine and other Christian Princes were first set vp for the publike exercise of Christian Religion To which times belongeth also that wherein he confesseth the conuersion of Nations by the true Church saying It did not onely require but also subdue all Nations to the obedience of the faith Ar. 97. so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperours and before Finally he confesseth the Emperours yet more expressely and more particularly saying Ar. 33. It is an easie matter to name you the Emperours and princes which both offered to the ministers of iustice in the right of our Church and also mainteined our faith and congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the great Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers others And to signifie that he meaneth these Emperours to haue bene such as he would wish for he addeth of the latter Emperours and saith I passe ouer as to well knowen many of the Grecian Emperours Likewise I passe ouer Charles the great I will not rehearse those later Germane Princes that c. For although these and such like defended some part of the trueth which we holde against you yet least you should obiect it was but in one or two poyntes I passe them ouer with silence And so much for the true Church in the first 600. yeares ¶ The third Chapter That he confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainely with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the But not his Caluinicall Church true Church may erre and also hath erred AFter all this so smoothly by him confessed of the true Church and sometime also of the long continuing thereof in incorruption if any man maruell to heare nowe that yet withall he holdeth the same true Church at the same time to haue bene corrupted and to haue erred let him sée here in the eleuenth Chapter his manifolde manifest contradictions he will quickly leaue his marueiling the matter he shal perceiue is not so straunge in this man but very vsuall common to contrarie him selfe as it is also no rare thing in his master Caluine and the other heretical writers of our time But here in the meane while be it disagréeing or be it agréeing with that which he hath confessed already Infra ca. 11. cōtradict 4. I will in this present Chapter laye forth his words first generally that the true Church may erre and afterwarde of the particuler errors common to the true Church then and to our Church now The first part That the true Church may erre Ar. 86 Therefore that the true Church may erre thus he saith The true and onely Church of Christ can neuer be voyde of God his spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some things And a litle after Wherefore the whole Churche militant consisting of men which are all lyars may erre all together Ar. 88. Agayne The true and onely Church of God as it is declared before hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things And there beneath And if it may erre and be deceiued it selfe what man is he that neede to doubt whether it may induce any error among the people In so much that he is bolde to say in an other place Pur. 367 368. Of an hundred argumentes that S. Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians this insultation that their heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church was one of the feeblest which tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of truth that is in it but by their confession and graunt In so much agayne that a few lines after he saith to D. Allen or rather to S. Augustine if it be truely scanned In deede they were but sory whelpes that could not say baffe to the bleating of such a calfe as you are Modestly which thinke that such a foolish cauill can cary credite with them that haue any cromme of brayne in their heades to wit The Church prayeth so therefore it is true Ar. 83.84 Moreouer in an other If you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that Article I beleeue the Catholike Church that is I beleeue whatsoeuer the Church doth allow to be true I denie that it is
pag. they held it not and therefore both to be alike iustified or both alike condemned as I shall haue a place againe in the .9 Chapter to declare further when I answere to all that he alleageth vp and downe to proue that wée agrée not throughly with the Fathers in substance of doctrine ¶ The sixt Chapter An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherwith he hath charged the Church of the first .600 yeares and afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times HItherto I haue so procéeded in this my defence of our Churche that now is as supposing that both it the auncient Church before it hath erred in manner as he chargeth it and declaring that he must confesse it to be the true Church still notwithstanding that it erreth now as he confesseth it to haue bene the true Churche afore notwithstanding that it erred in many of the same articles and also in sundry others then But now if I can further defend it that for all his accusations yet it hath not euer erred neither in those former nor in these later ages Note vvel you that seeke for the Church then will the curable Reader I hope much more acknowledge that it is most worthely to be sought vnto and obeyed and their Antisynagogue to be forsaken and abhorred and that much more againe if moreouer I defend it that also it can not erre For then séeing they confesse that theirs may erre it will follow therof that theirs is not the true Churche But that point I wil reserue to the .8 and .9 Chapter where I will answere the Scriptures and fathers that he any where alleageth to proue that the true Church may erre here I will but maintaine that it hath not erred Fulkes zeale in answering for Caluine and others being in deede of his Church And this to doe I am moued specially by the truth of the matter it selfe but secondarily also by example of this same Fulke who though he say that their Church may erre yet can not his zeale abide to heare that it doth erre or rather he saith no more but that the true Church may erre so as where he may séeme to speake of a true Church distinct from their Church now to wit of the Fathers Church But else when he speaketh expressely of their owne Church that now is as he holdeth alwayes earnestly that it doth not erre so he neuer saith so much plainely as that it may erre yea sometimes also in his zeale he breaketh out against the Fathers them selues at once and against vs as where D. Allen said Pur. 369.371 One of them was so impudent to say in an open booke that the Liturgies of the Fathers made all against the Catholiks And a litle after If their Seruice like you so well or at least better then S. Gregories Masse you might with more honestie haue coped for any one of them then haue forged a new one of your owne which in deede is directly repugnant to all other rites in the Christian world To this I answere saith Fulke We haue with more honestie reformed our Liturgie according to the word of God example of the oldest Church then Gregorie Basill Chrysostome if they were theirs or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leauing the ancient Liturgies that were vsed in the Churche before their time because they did not sufficiently expresse their errors superstitiō forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God And in another place first on the one side he accuseth S. Ambrose the Church afore in his time Pur. 226. saying Such superstitions crept into the Church by emulation of the Paganes Then on the other side of his owne he saith For auoiding of all which inconueniences that haue risen and may rise The vvise Church of Geneua by ceremonies practised at burialls the Churche of Geneua very wisely godly vseth no more ceremonies in burying their dead then are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the corps Pur. 412. Againe where D. Allen saith They be as saucie with Gods Churche Councells and chiefe gouernours as we be with the Iackestrawes of Geneua See here I pray you the zeale of the man You confesse hereby your selfe to be a saucie Iacke And he addeth that the world can testifie that there is passing grauitie and modestie in the lightest persons of all that Churche Againe where D. Allen saith Pur. 341. If all Ecclesiasticall foundations should returne to the founders againe because their willes are not fulfilled that then perhaps this wiued newe Cleargie might be driuen to serue in a reformed French barne his zeale is so great that he can not hold but You iest saith he like a scornfull caitife of those holy assemblees of Gods childrē in Fraunce Pur. 203.205 Infra ca. 12. num So likewise by name for Caluin other his masters let vs a litle behold his impacience D. Allen toucheth Caluine for denying all communion betwéene Christes members that are in this life and in the next For this Fulke saith vnto him You haue a pleasure to spue out your pestilent poyson against that noble light of Gods Church M. Caluine Againe where he noteth his strange doctrine about Christes discending into hell Fulke answereth Pur. 61.63 Infra ca. 1 pag. He vttereth his spite against Caluine he spitteth out agaynst him moste impudent slaunders raylings and lyes not satisfying him selfe with the voyce of a man he hath borowed the tong of the diuell him selfe Whose doctrine God him selfe the Angels and all the worlde doth know and testifie to be directly contrary to these slaunders And straight after But because he woulde not be thought to haue spued out all his poyson agaynst Caluine he goulpeth vp another bowlefull of rayling slaundering against our Bishops who haue not onely suffered but also commended Caluines bookes to be read and studied of the simple Curates affirming that they do priuily set forth by books that which they dare not openly preach All this and more of like sorte he hath there and yet saith in the very same place that he doth somewhat moderate his corrupt affections Also in an other place Pur. 45. Without all shame or shew of truth most impudently he faineth a contrarietie betwene Melancthon and Caluine O brasen face and yron forehead With litle zeale he saith for another Pur. 147.89 Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath substantially and learnedly defended Againe As for that reuerend father M. Iewel whom this arrogant Louanist calleth the English bragger how well he hath answered his chalenge his owne learned labors do more clearly testifie vnto the world then that it can be blemished by this sycophantes brainlesse babling In déede he hath so well quitted him selfe that the very reading of his answere hath turned many earnest Protestantes into earnest Catholikes as both by the numbers
afore doubted of by some Referring them to the .10 Chapter a Cap. 10. de 45.46 such errors as he layeth to the later Popes personally because they concerne not the whole Churche as neither the pretensed Arrianisme of Liberius in old time b Cap. 10. dem 38. such errors also as he layeth to vs now in respect of our shauen beardes rounded heades with other like taken as he saith of certaine old heretikes because he him selfe also counteth these but small matters Therefore I say reseruing these to their proper place we haue here no more but foure or fiue to speake of j. Touching the bodies of Angels One he reporteth thus Ar. 90. The second Councell of Nice determined that Angels and soules of men had bodies were visible circumscriptible and therfore might be paynted And this it affirmeth to be the iudgement of the Catholike Church Con. Nice 2. Actio 5. I answere you mispeport the matter for it is not the Councels determination no nor saying also but the saying onely of Ioannes Bishop of Thessalonica rehearsed in the Councell amongst many other authors with this admonition giuen after it to the Councell by Tharasius Bishop of Constantinople that they consider hereby the madnes of them that ouerthrew the Images of our Lord and of his vndefiled mother séeing this holy father doth shew that Angels also may be paynted And touching Ioannes him selfe his error is not so great as your ignorance maketh it saying If this be not to induce an error to make men beleeue that Angels and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscriptible there was neuer any error since the world began Soft man you go to farre other maner of errors you may remember haue bene since the world began which might not be defended as he defendeth his saying to the Gentill with whom he there talketh of Angels ipsa Catholica Ecclesia sic sentit The Catholike Church so thinketh quibus animas nostras adiungo To whoÌ„ I ioyne also our soules that they are pardie intellectuall Heb. 1 of psa but not altogether vnbodily and inuisible as you Gentiles do say but of a thin and ayrie or fierie body as it is written His Angels he maketh spirites and his ministers burning fyre And by the Catholike Church what he meaneth he straight declareth saying So thought And so Pâ— must put 〈◊〉 rather to errors of primitiuâ— Church many of the holy fathers we know as Basilius Athanasius Methodius and they that holde with them qui stant ab illis signifying that some other Catholikes helde otherwise Aug. â— cap. 5 And not only S. Augustine numbreth it amongst the things That without sinne a man may be ignorant of and therfore néede not cum discrimine with perill to be affirmed or denied or defined but also to this day no such determination or declaration of the question is made as the a Thâ— in q. d moni best also do graunt to condemne the assertion as hereticall though b Coâ— sub Iâ— cap. 1 â— sufficient to count it nowe temerarious and erroneous ij Touching the Popes superioritie ouer the Councell But the next error of our Church is I trow vnanswerable being such a one also as not only sheweth vs to erre but moreouer depriueth vs of al certentie of truth Mary that in déede must be séene vnto as you tell vs saying that we haue nede to lay our heades together about it Ar. 63.85 And this it is Your Canonistes and Diuines he saith be not agréed about the chiefest articles of your Religion that is 1 Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councel aboue the Pope 2 Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell or whether the Councell may erre and not the Pope And what then These two The Popes determination and the Councels determination being the rules of truth in your religion and not agreed vpon how can any truth be certayne in your Church Agayne by and by after You Papistes some holding of the Pope and some of the Councell as rules of truth can haue no ground nor certentie of truth Therefore if you woulde haue me or any man to be of your beliefe first determine how I shall know when I am in a right beliefe And that be all which troubleth you me thinketh I should be able to satisfie you or any other reasonable man as you are if I say that you may know and that by the consent of both these parties that you are in a right beliefe when you holde those determinations that without controuersy are ioyntly the determinations both of the Pope and of the Councell together as the determinations of the Councell of Trent and of all other Councels without controuersie confirmed by the Pope Other Councels that are certayne not to be confirmed by him or also not certayne to be confirmed by him no man wil binde you to beléeue them or at the least not before it be certayne and so are you easily answered though it be supposed the matter to be so vncertayne amongst vs as you make it But now how much more if it be not so For how do you proue this disagréement The Councell of Ferraria and Florence determined That the Pope was aboue the Councell and that the Councell might erre And Eugenius quartus that gathered the Councell of Ferraria and Florence was of the same iudgement All this I graunt Now what haue you for the other side The Councels of Constance and Basill determined That the Councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope may erre Let this also be graunted And Martinus quintus the Pope chosen by the Councell of Constance was of the same iudgement Nay syr whoe there that you proue not nor neuer shall proue but onely that a Sess vâ—… Con. CoÌ„ … Martinus quintus at the petition of the Polonian Ambassador confirmed those determinations alone of the Councell of Constance which were agaynst the errors of Wiclefe Hus and Hierome of Prage And that b Sess 4 Con. Ba … Nicolaus quintus to auoyde much confusion ratified the collations of Benefices and such like thinges done in the Councell of Basill And that c Sess 16 Con. Ba … Eugenius quartus did no more but declare that from the beginning to a certaine time the same of Basill was Legitimum Concilium a lawfull Councell and lawfully continuated But otherwise as concerning the determinations and decrées of it neither Eugenius nor he that d Ar. 91 you name to wit Nicolaus confirmed it yea Leo decimus afterwarde in his e Sess 〈…〉 Lateran Councell most expresly reiected it comparing it to the seconde Ephesine Synode commonly called Lestrice whiche was repealed afterwardes by commaundement of Pope Leo the first in the Councell of Chalcedon Go now and say still in your vayne spirite of childish insultation Gentle master N. reconcile me these togeather This triu … vvanteth â—â—thing but 〈◊〉 victorie because
blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures onely out of the Scriptures without the commentaries of the Doctors but not also I trow without the Commentaries of Caluine and such like companions thus he saith Pur. 407. And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteined in the holy Scriptures haue certaine comfort of saluation Pur. 285. And againe to the same purpose Surely as the Sunne is not obscured with the dust that a Cock casteth vp when he scrapeth on the dunghill The Doctors vvritings a dunghill no more is the Sonne of righteousnesse or the light of his holy worde darkened by all the myste of mens deuises which Allen or his complices can rayse out of the whole heape of superstition and error to deface the glory of his Church The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and therefore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Our doctrine shall one day be tried before God and therefore we make no account how we be iudged by mans day 1. Cor. 4. So properly he vttereth his presumption in the words that the Apostle clene contrarie did speake in excéeding great feare It foloweth Your way is your owne way not the way of the Lord and because you take another way vnto saluation then the onely right waye Iesus Christ therfore by his owne sentence you are al theeues and murderers Hath any séene a man so drunken so blinded with pride Well then in the other place of searching the meaning out of the Scriptures them selues alone and neglecting the receaued Expositors what saieth he Whether the old Doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestāts Pur. 434. I haue answered before we will make no comparison with them Modestly spoken a man would thinke but what followeth Neither will we chalenge the likelihood to vs neither will we leaue it to them I mary hold your owne we pray you And why so For whether soeuer we doe we shall be neuer the more certaine of the trueth You say true for so much as concerneth your selues For in déede no certaintie of trueth but most certaine certaintie of error in your vnderstanding But in what so euer the Doctors doe agrée who so expoundeth the Scripture vnto that shall be euer most certaine of the truth which is ynough though not alwayes certaine of that same very places meaning as in the sixt Chapter I declared more at large Forth now a Gods name Supra cap. 6. par 2. But this will we set downe as a most certaine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same Spirite by which they were written The meaning of some place one may attaine vnto which hath not that Spirit but to vnderstand them alwayes agréeably to the truth can not be without that same Spirit Forth againe What then shall we arrogate the Spirit as proper to vs and denye it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirit and so haue we Hereof ariseth an obiection How then is the Spirit of God contrarie to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges He answereth God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods Spirit yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture Yea Syr Cyprian as he was of Cornelius his Spirit so was he likewise of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè as we tearme it though explicite he were of an other of an erronius iudgemēt and that according to his owne humane spirit and not according to Gods Spirit As at this day likewise and alwayes whensoeuer any Catholike man of ignoraunce erreth expressely yet notwithstanding in effect he is of the trueth with the other Catholikes which erre not because he quietly continueth in vnitie with them nor doth not obstinatly holde his owne error against them Now whether the case be so betwene the olde Doctors and you briefly and manifestly it is declared by this that neither you at this time will be refourmed by them nor they in their time would be refourmed by your forefathers Aerius Iouinianus and such like But now that you haue abrogated the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from Gods spirite both in the Doctors and in your selues say on and tell vs your aduise What then there remayneth but this seconde principle as certayne as the first That the Spirite of God hath a meaning in the Scriptures which is not to be sought out of the Scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but only in the Scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of truth No syr why suppose those men were the Apostles them selues or any other hauing the same spirite of trueth that the Apostles first had but of that ynough before foorth therefore Therefore that the spirite may declare his owne meaning Ar. 86. one place of Scripture must be expounded by an other for the hard places of Scripture must be opened by easie places all other ordinary meanes and helpes of wit learning knowledge of tongs diligence in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and triall And is this way so sure and certayne I mary For who soeuer obserueth this search and triall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certaynly And may he not trust an other which hath so precisely obserued it as for example the Protestantes me thinkes as your selfe or M. Caluine c. but I crie you mercy you meant not them Well then may he not trust the olde Fathers therein A comfortable doctrine for the ignorant forsooth or did not they obserue it diligently No for who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easily be deceiued yea you speake nowe a great worde euen when he thinketh he followeth the authoritie of the Scriptures Which search if the auncient Fathers had alwayes followed they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges as to condemne the Protestantes in Aerius and Vigilantius c. and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined as the doctrine of the Papistes Well then I sée all is in a mans owne diligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the Scriptures conferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe this is your most certen way I must therefore tell you a litle of our diligence therin that you may certifie vs whether it be ynough or no. and the rather because you exhort our master D. Allen and say to him Pur. 9. Trye the rule of the Protestantes and search the worde of God in the holy Scriptures and then vndoubtedly you shall finde the trueth and the Church also that is the pillar of trueth And againe Ar. 62. Who haue the trueth you must search in the
worde of trueth desiring the spirite of trueth that you may vnderstande and beleeue the trueth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the trueth and of the Churche of God whiche is the pillar of truth So it is then good syr In this Seminarie of English diuines vnder the gouernement of D. Allen mainteined by his holines for the saluation of our countrey as he mainteineth the like for Germanie also for Bohemia and Students of Polonia The Popes Seminarie for England Suetia Slauonia Hungaria c. yea for the Gréekes likewise yea also for the Hebrues we haue such exercise in the scriptures that we reade ouer the old Testament in euery thrée yeres twelue times one of which times hath ioyned with it an examinatiō by conferēce from Chapter to Chapter and from verse to verse The new Testament we reade ouer in the same thrée yeres sixtéene times with a treble examinatiō of the same sort And not cōtent with those examinations we afterwards write moreouer in paper bookes lay together al the sentences that belong to the controuersies of this time euery one in his place And without all vanitie to speake one word of my selfe after many yeres studie afore after the maner of Englād as many of your owne side can beare me witnesse I haue since then folowed this foresaid trade nine yeres This is partly our diligence in the scriptures besides much other exercise both in the same and in all the studie of diuinitie What more diligence would you haue vs vse this is the principall and as you make it all in all All other helpes you counte but subordinate and seruing vnto this And yet in them also I dare saye if you knewe vs you woulde allowe vs for sufficient at the leaste You maye by the trace of God ere it be long haue some taste of vs therein when one of vs shall set forth a booke to shew to the world that the Hebrew and Gréeke textes in nothing make for you against vs and in very many things make for vs against you much more plainly then our vulgar Latine text Now then how much more certaine of the trueth be we then you also by your owne rule because your diligence herein is nothing comparable but specially because together with this rule we vse the expositiōs that you renounce of the auncient Fathers who for such conference of places and all other studie of the Scriptures were pearlesse ¶ The third part What he meaneth by his Onely Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe Thus haue we heard this Protestant call for expresse Scripture in all things yea also in the expounding of Scripture Now that he séeme not too straight and rigorous in his exception he will tell vs what he meaneth therby as it were to geue vs more scope but in déed as we shall heare soone after to shut vs straighter vp and to except also against Scripture it selfe vnlesse it be so plaine and euident for vs that by no subteltie of theirs they may auoide it Concerning the former thus he saith When we require expresse Scripture for euery controuersie we doe not require that euery thing should be named in Scripture but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them Then on the other side he almost repenteth himselfe againe for graunting so much and saieth And yet we may say Pur. 438. it is a great preiudice against your Purgatorie and prayer that it is not so much as once named in the Scriptures Againe If the holy Ghost had euer allowed Prayer for the deade he would once at the least haue vttered the same plainely in holy Canonicall Scriptures Pur. 452. Canonicall he saith to except against the very meaning of it also which he séeth in the bookes of the Machabées rather shall that Canonicall Scripture not be Canonicall for so plainely naming that which the eares of the Protestantes can not abide Well in the other Canonicall Scriptures the name is not and that is a great preiudice against vs. But he will be fauourable vnto vs a great preiudice shal not make him geue iudgement against vs if at least The thing it selfe be taught or can be proued by the Scriptures Yet againe he remembreth him selfe Pur. 452. that D. Allen hath alleaged many Scriptures for that thing and the old Fathers likewise before him and therefore to tye vs yet straighter with another exception he said here a little afore But we require that euery thing be necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures And againe he saith speaking of D. Allen See the confidence of the man he is sure Pur. 364. that if we were examined of our conscience what tryall of this doubt we would wish there is none we could name but his cause might well abide it Wherevnto he answereth saying Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience long agoe that the onely authoritie of Gods word written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters If you were able we should haue heard before this time some sentence of Scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the dead Why in the third Chapter here you confessed that you haue heard of him diuerse sentences and not of him alone Supra pag. 19. but also of the Fathers of the true Churche Yea but now saieth he I adde my exception and say therfore some sentence not standing vpon voluntarie collection but either in plaine wordes or necessarie conclusion For there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessarie collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Againe Pur. 452. All truth may be proued by Scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessarie conclusion which is all one And againe Pur. 189. There is * For example your ovvne heresie no heresie so absurd which Satā putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of words in so many Bookes of the holy scriptures that by peruerse wittes may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods trueth and all articles of our beliefe are plainely taught in the Scripture either by manifest wordes or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtiltie of Satan or his instrumentes may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betweene heresie and truth when they both appeale to the authoritie of Scripture Which difference as it may be found in al heresies so in none more notably then in this error of Purgatory Consider what texts of holy Scripture are alleaged * against it rather for it you shall see they can not bring one out of which any necessary argument may be framed to proue their cause or which hath not by learned interpretors of the olde time
opposed to our argumentes as you oppose it in the last Chapter You might if the Maior were true labour to the purpose I graunt in prouing the Minor But you might not I say for all that make of it an opposition or exception when we make argumentes out of Traditions Councels Fathers c. as in the like I shew vnto you I proue a doctrine vnto you out of the Old Testament you oppose therevnto your negatiue argument and say to me All true doctrine is taught in the New Testament for so you do holde and must holde that doctrine is not taught in the New Testament therfore that doctrine is no true doctrine Is this well opposed of you May not I say to you notwithstanding Yea syr but for all that what say you to my place alleaged out of the Old Testament vnlesse you haue any thing against the Old Testament it selfe Euen so vnles you haue any thing directly against Traditions them selues Councels Fathers and suche others our argumentes do preuayle and you in vayne do flée to Only Scripture although all true doctrine were taught in Scripture Now to the second question concerning the Church ¶ The second part Concerning the question of the Church About the Church his contradictions are very many and very palpable as I will declare in the eleuenth Chapter Here I haue to examine what he alleageth first indefinitely That the Church may erre That it may be diuorced That it is a base and contemptible companie That it may and also should become inuisible and then by name That the Protestantes haue the true Church or That the Papistes haue it not j Of the Church indefinitely That the whole Church may erre he alleageth and saith According to the saying of the Scripture Euery man is a lyer Ar. 86. Wherfore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyers may erre altogether Why do you say The church militant Doth not the Church triumphant also consist of men If therefore all men be lyers why may not they also erre No doubt because although all men are lyers of them selues yet some men may notwithstanding by the gifte of God be veraces true And so where you conclude thus vpon vs God onely is not true Pur. 451. for the Pope can not erre you might conclude aswell God onely is not true for the Apostles can not erre Againe you alleage and say The true and only Church of God hath no such priuiledge graunted Ar. 88. but that she may be deceiued in some things For her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. Where you her S. Paule saith our including him selfe also in that speache Ex parte enim cognoscimus c. For our knowledge is vnperfect and our prophecying is vnperfect so long as we be in this life whether we speake or write And yet you will not say I trow that S. Paule therefore might be deceiued in his writings and Epistles So then the Churches priuiledge knowledge prophecying may be vnperfect and yet she withall so frée from erring that she may be bolde in her determinations to say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath bene thought good of the holy Ghost and of vs. Againe you say And it is true that S. Augustine saith Euen the whole Church is taught to say euery day Ar 88. Pur. 393. Aug. Retra li. 2. ca. 18. Forgeue vs our trespasses But why so because the whole Church doth erre in her determinations euery day It were ridiculous so to say Why theÌ„ Propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates membrorum suorum Because of certayne veniall sinnes of her members procéeding of ignorance frayltie saith S. Augustine In which members the Apostles also in their time were and therefore they also accordingly were taught to say euery day Forgeue vs our trespasses and did say accordingly Iac 3. 1. Io. 1. We do all offend in many things And yet I trow they did not erre nor could erre in their Canonicall writinges and determinations This is all that you bring to proue the whole Churche of Christ may erre Though you alleage one other place that the whole Synagogue did erre and yet that also onely in a fact not in a doctrine yea neither the whole Synagogue but a piece onely So that there bee as you see no lesse then three walles as it were betwene the Church and this shotte of yours These are your wordes Pur. 224.456 Dauid transgressed the law of God to carry the Arke vpon a new chariotte which should haue bene borne vpon mens shoulders … y blindnesse 1. Chron. 13. wherin not onely Dauid but so many priests and Leuites so good a Bishop and the whole Generall Councell of Israel did erre So say you but so saith not the texte yea it vtterly confoundeth both you and all these prophane innouations made by your ley heades and Parliamentes Dauid tooke counsaile saith the texte with his Tribunes and Centurions 1. Par. 13. 1â—… and all his Nobles He did not so much as consulte no not with the inferiour sorte of the Priestes but onelie If you please quoth he to his temporall Lordes and if the motion be of God let vs sende to the rest of our brethern in all the lande of Israel and to the priestes and Leuites in their Suburbes as you woulde saie the hedge Priestes that they gather vnto vs and we fetche agayne to vs the Arke of God And so they beganne in suche maner as you reporte vntill God killed Oza the Leuite in the procession and so made Dauid afraide to carrie it any further But three monethes after hauing found his error he gathered not onelie all Israel into Ierusalem but also filios Aaron Sadoc et Abiathar Sacerdotes The Successors of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar the high priestes Leuitas and the Leuites with the heades of them being these six Vriel Asaias Ioel Semeias Eliel and Aminadab These two Bishops and these sixe Archedeacons that I may so tearme them he called and saide vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues together with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place whiche is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lorde did smite vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing A notable ensample for all Princes and for al nobles to remember how they haue offended and to amende it accordingly and all A maiori in euery respect aboue the highest degree One more of your places I thinke good here to examine though you bring it not to proue that the Church may erre but onely to answere a place that we bring for the contrary Ar. 86. The true and onely Church of Christ you say can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceaued in some thinges euen as
Patriarkes Pur. 363. Againe Those Doctors that would seeke confirmation of prayer and oblation for the dead in the Scriptures as Chrysostome and such like doe manifestly wrest them to their purpose I doe here no more but note that he chargeth them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche euen so as he chargeth vs But what Scriptures and how substantially they alleaged I must reserue to * See ca. 13. an other place As that also which * See cap. 9. pag. he grateth vpon so often out of Tertullian as if he should confesse that prayer and oblation for the deade is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Whereas in déede he doth not so say but onely of the solemne times of such oblation in such manner as I alleaged a litle before out of S. Augustine concerning fasting and fasting dayes The offring anima die vpon the yeares myndday for the dead and the solemne memorie of them in the Canon of the Masse these thinges Tertullian and others ascribe to the Apostles traditions and not to precept of the Scripture And now for making it such a tradition what saith Fulke againe of them Pur. 39◠Thinke you that prayers for the dead came from the Apostles because Tertullian saith so And a litle after If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he And againe Where Chrysostome saith Pur. 303. It was agreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that be departed for they right well knew great profite to arise thervpon vnto them he must pardon vs of crediting him It is no maruell now after this to sée him fayne to denie the See cap. 13. most certaine works of the Apostles Scholars Clemens Romanus Dionysius Areopagita witnessing the same tradition and to say that we haue them but of some counterfayting knaue that could not otherwise mainteine his heresie to be olde Pur. 268. The modestie of the man tovvardes the old vvriters but by falsifying and counterfayting anew that which neuer was in the olde writers heades Finally vnlesse he make the like counterfaiting knaue of S. Chrysostome also he may sée by this testimonie of his that he had no cause for this poynt to charge him or any other after him with suche a chaunge of the olde Liturgies as he doth in many places saying But be it that Chrysostome Basil did write these Liturgies Pur. 356. Itē 360.371 the oldest Fathers that can be giuen them I would know what Liturgies they had in those Churches before Chrysostome and Basil deuised those formes that are said to be theirs If you would in déede know it and namely for this poynt about the dead Chrysostome him selfe as also Augustine Epiphanius Tertullian and others alleaged by D. Allen hath tolde you that it was all one and the same afore and after It followeth in him And whye Chrysostome Basill Gregorie or any other that prescribed newe formes of seruice were not content with the old formes that were vsed in their Churches before their dayes * See his boldnes vndoubtedly because they were too simple for their curiositie too sincere for their superstition sauouring of the auncient truth not fauouring their lately receiued errors And a litle after The authors of these Liturgies thought to confirme it by publike authoritie whiche was before but a blinde error without a head I shall answere this why of yours in the sixt Chapter where I must answere for these Fathers iiij He contrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuel and his limmes Now let vs come to the fourth and last article to sée him so farre confronting those Fathers which haue thus fathered this matter vpon the Apostles partly their writings partly their tradition that he cleane contrarie fathereth it vpon the diuell him selfe sundry lims of his saying boldly that thence the holy Fathers had it Ar. 39. It is certayne saith he that prayer for the dead was first planted by the diuell as were other abuses and because it hath a great pretence of charitie deceyued simple men the sooner Pur. 386. And with more particularitie in an other place First the diuel suggested superstitious deuotion into the Gentiles by peruerse emulation of whom Iudas Machabaeus might be deceyued And his facte gaue occasion to the ignoraunt people of error And their ignoraunce first winked at because it had a shewe of pietie confirmed by custome might at length Pur. 436. for none of the auncient Fathers within foure hundred yeres was wholly of your error be allowed of Augustine and others who neuer weyed the matter by Scriptures but by the common practise And this I thinke saith he is the righte pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie And in an other place yet more particularly Pur. 416. Pur. 152.266.386.410 I haue promised sayth he and that very often and therefore so muche the more to be noted to proue that the opinion of Purgatorie had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had He beginneth that paragraph with these wordes Nowe at the length commeth the author of this Heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine whom D. Allen there alleageth that Aerius an Arian was the firste that denied prayers and oblations to profite the dead Vnto that Fulke goeth about there to aunswere to quitte Aerius and to counteraccuse those Fathers and their felowes Well then Purgatorie sayth he had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had And what was that Heresie was receyued from the diuell by Philosophers and Gentiles And howe proue you that Purgatorie was so receyued Mary all Philosophers whiche graunted the Immortalitie of the soule as Phythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned three places for the soules departed And who else Carpocrates was a great admirer of Philosophie This Heretike learning out of Plato his Philosophie that mens soules must be purified after their death inuented a kinde of Purgatorie out of the opinion of Pythagoras Yet forwarde Origen to muche a Philosopher was not content with Plato his purification but he must bring in Platoes fire also Is this all Afterwarde about S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented by some mediators and conciliators of Origens error with the erroneous practise of the Churche Here loe we haue the thirde place the purification the fire and the name We lacke nowe but the relieuing of the Soules there For that he saith The Heracleonites would redeme their dead after a new maner namely by oyle balme water and Inuocation said ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue But at one stroke to strike vs starke dead Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes First that the Patriarkes before Christes
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
Catholikes as none can be more and some of their suffering in Englande for the Catholike faith in prison in yrons and that after the most terrible and most cruell manner doth most gloriously declare ¶ The ninth Chapter To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he aleageth are examined answered The first parte Of his Doctours generally j His chalenging words THat out of the old Doctours Church is no saluation that they make with vs in many things against the Protestants I declared in the thrée first Chapters by Fulkes owne confession Now to declare further that they be wholly ours with the * Aug. sic inuocat Cyprianum de Bapt. con Don. lib. 5. ca. 17. li. 7. cap. 1. Pur. 432. Pur. 383. helpe of their prayers I will defende that in nothing they make for the Protestants against vs because he saith vnto D. Allen speaking of the auncient Doctors and Councels Among whom as we will not denie but you haue some patrons of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest Againe The Papistes offer to stand to their iudgement in all thinges and yet in most thinges yea in the chiefest pointes of religion they are contrarie to the Doctors and old Councels Againe Brag of them as much as thou wilt Pur. 406. thou shalt neuer be able to proue that of 20. errours which thou defendest Rusticus es Corridon they did hold one If they haue spoken otherwise then trueth in any matter they must be * In the zeale of the Scribes against Christ. told of it as well as other men But thou must not think that for one error common with them thou must hold an hundred cōtrarie to them He saith in most things and Pur. 238. in an hundred for one Yea more then that in another place It may be a shame to you Papists saith he to leaue condemne for heresy all that is true in those mens writings and agreable to the Scripture and to make such vaunt for a few superstitious ceremonies Pur. 407. and vncincere opinions And againe Nay M. Allen though those Doctors buyld some hay or stouble vpon the only foundation Christ their case is ten thousande times better then yours which buyld nothing but dirt and dung tempered with hay and stuble vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Ar. 60. And once againe more particularly The other writers of later yeres he spoke before of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus we are not afraide to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead and diuers superstitious and superfluous Ceremonies But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honor of God the offices of Christ Redemption iustification satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of Gods word authoritie of the Pope Real presence Transubstantiation Communion in both kinds Images c. the most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. are vtterly against you and therefore can not be of your Church Lo this he saith of our differing from the Doctors First touching the number of the poyntes to wit in most things in many hundreds yea in all that is true in their writings and secondly touching the weight of the poyntes to wit in the greatest and chiefest euen about God and Christ him selfe with those other that he named ij A generall answere to his chalenge declaring that we neede not to answere his Doctors particularly Wherein I thinke Reader whatsoeuer thou art thou doest of thy selfe abhorre the mouth which so filthily runneth ouer and therfore desirest not that I take the payns which I haue promised to ioyne with him in this Chapter vpon the Doctors As also other good causes there are why I might spare that labour Pur. 383 432. First because speaking of the old Doctors and old Councels and the most auncient primatiue Church he saith Pur. 383.432 For which cause that is because the Papistes do offer to stand to their iudgement in al things and not for Confirmation of truth we alleage the authoritie of men we stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures In which saying as he agréeth well with himselfe aboue in the seuenth Chapter where he did set at nought all but onely Scripture so I hauing in the laste Chapter answeared all his Scriptures haue by this his owne iudgement fully satisfied him although I meddle not at all with his Doctors vnlesse he require me to spende time onely to mainteine their honor whiche make the forsaid offer being otherwise as he here saith nothing to the matter which is the Confirmation of trueth Againe because he himselfe for me doth answere all his owne Doctors if it be rightly considered See cap. 5. in the end in that he confesseth them to haue helde with vs the very same pointes for the which we must be condemned no remedie as differing from the Doctors in the greatest pointes For why doth he saye that wée are against the honor of God and against the Offices of Christ but because wée hold Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes But the Doctors held the same he confesseth both here Sup. cap. 3. part 2. Sup. cap. 7. par 1. in Traditions and more amply in the 3. chapter Why doth he say that we are against the authoritie of Gods word but because we hold with Traditions But the Doctors held with the same he confesseth in the 7. Chapter And so forth in the residue of those great pointes as may easily be deduced in like maner or at the least so proued that he shal be faine to cōfesse as much In somuch that of one of those points he saith thus expresly I confesse with M. Allen Pur. 156. that the old writers not onely knew but also haue expressed the valew of our redemption by Christ in such wordes as it is not possible that the Popish Satisfaction can stande with them And yet on the other side sée what followeth immediatly Against the valew of which Redemption saith he if they haue vttered any thing by the word of Satisfaction or any thing els we may lawfully reiecte their authoritie not only though they be Doctors of the Church but also if they were Angels frō heauen So that nowe we no more néede to defend against him that we are not contrarie to the Doctors in such great poyntes then that the Doctors are not contrarie to them selues in the same as also that
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
all men know that those also of your owne side in Fraunce Flaunders c. in their publike Edictes call vs Catholikes and them selues by other names Now supposing that it is our name yet you haue a shift saying Ar. 67. that we boast and trust onely in these names Catholike and Church without the thinges them selues as the wicked Iewes did crying The Temple of the Lorde when they had nothing lesse then the Temple of the Lorde Iere. 7. Mat. 21. but rather a denne of theeues Our Lord both in the Prophet and in the Gospell acknowledgeth it to be his Temple although they in it were théeues and wicked persons So is ours his Catholike Church although some of vs were so wicked as you make vs. Howbeit the wicked both then and now trusting onely in the Temple and in the Church and not amending their liues deceiue them selues how much more they that trust in the cōuenticles of Heretikes which are the Synagogues of Satan On the other side supposing that it is not your name you haue also your shift saying Ar. 68. If you haue no greater argument to condemne vs thē that we are not called The Catholike Church then you can no more condemne vs then Christ and his Apostles that were not onely not called the true Church but also were called Heretikes and deceiuers by the Iewes which were as rightly called Gods people as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church are called the Christian world Nay bate me an ace of that I pray you vnlesse you can likewise shew by predictions of the Prophets and correspondence of Luther the reprobation of the Christian world in these dayes as we all sée the reprobation of the people of God the Iewes in those dayes Besides that you haue great reason forsooth to require that the Iewes should haue vsed those names which they neuer heard of or els you not to be tryed now by them after their institution receiuing and vniuersall vsing And yet againe you will néedes haue the name from vs. Ar. 95. For why might not our Church when it was most hidden you say be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was conteined in the narrow bondes of Iury For you say it is not called Catholike because it should be euery where for that it neuer was nor neuer shal be But because that wheresoeuer it be in partes it is one body of Christ I reade of many old Heretikes that gaue many interpretations of that name to draw it to them selues but you are the first to my knowledge that said because it is vna therefore it is called Catholica The old fathers in their Créede were of another meaning when they said distinctly I beleue One Holy Catholike and Apostolike that is Romane Church No Sir S. Augustine telleth you another interpretation Aug. de vn Eccl. ca. 2. Ecclesia vtique vna est quam maiores nostri Catholicam nominarunt vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est Secundum totum enim cath olun Grecè dicitur There is no doubt but onely one Church euen that same which our Auncetors named Catholica to declare by the very name it selfe that she is ouer all to wit beginning at Hierusalem and from thence growing ouer all Nations continually till the ende of the world when hauing taken in the fulnesse of Nations she shall be wholly assumpted in glorie And therefore your Church neither when it was hidden as you imagine neither now that it is open as we all sée God hide it againe can be called Catholike Au. Callat 3. diei nu 2. post Collat c. 27.28 Epist 48. because as S. Augustine so often resoneth against the Donatistes you do not communicate with totius Orbis Ecclesia the Church of the whole world but haue seperated your selues from it from the Church I say which beganne in Iurie and groweth on to this day and therefore as well then in the beginning as any time after was the same and had the same name as the trée of musterdséede is the trée of musterdséede whether it be growen litle or mikle Ar. 95. Pur. 14. But what a thing is this that you speake with the spirite of the Donatist and say The Popish Church is not in euery part of the world For Mahomets sect is in the greatest part Many countreys are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish Church It is iumpe the argument of Cresconius Aug. cōtra Cresc li. 3. ca. 63. Argumentaris quod ideo nobis non totus Orbis communicet c. Thou makest this argument saith S. Augustine that therefore the whole world doth not communicate with vs because as yet either many men there are of the Barbarous Nations which haue not yet beleued in Christ or many Heresies vnder the name of Christ abhorring from the communion of our felowship The full answere therof you may reade ther in S. Augustine Although I alleage almost nothing but onely answere my length groweth tedious to my selfe and I feare to the Reader also not for any substance of your argumentes but for the multitude of your trifles to say the least and best of them As againe wher you say like non plus that Most Papistes will confesse Ar. 69. that many thinges in their Church haue neede of reformation as not being vniuersally perfect and that it is halting in many thinges from the trueth of Gods word neither yet dispersed ouer all the World but conteyned in a corner of Europa and therefore it is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church Is yours then by that rule the Catholike Church As the Iewes care not if none be Christ so that Iesus be not Christ euen so you reason like men that care not if none be the Church so that the Romane be not O miserable People that must haue such Leaders The Church now may vouchsaue to be so spoken of by you when you speake no better here cap. 3. of the same Church also in S. Augustines time But we tell you with the wordes of S. Augustine for we confesse no more then he also doth by you alleaged wher he repeateth the Créede August de Gē ad 〈◊〉 imperfect ca. 1. Constitutam ab illo Matrem Ecclesiam That the Holy Ghost being geuen founded the Church our Mother quae Catholica dicitur her that is called Catholike ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est et in nullo claudicat et per totum orbem diffusa est of this because she is vniuersally perfect and halteth in nothing though the Donatistes and other like Heretikes do neuer so much triumph in that interpretation and is spredde ouer all the World in maner aforesaide Both interpretations agrée to our Mother and we claime them accordingly saith S. Augustine and we whereas the Heretikes
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
as S. Irenée saith Non oportet adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatē quam facile est ab Ecclesia sumere No man must yet after all these most euident Demonstrations seeke the Trueth among any others which they may so easily take of the Churth because it is Depositorium diues the riche Stoarehouse of the Apostles 38 Old Heresies Motiue 4. Among the Protestants on the contrary side I say that there are to be founde very many of the Olde condemned Heresies Which is so playne that Fulke confesseth here cap. 3. Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius to haue bene counted Heretikes of the true auncient Church for sundry opinions of theirs nowe reuiued by the Protestantes And therefore is fayne cap. 7. pag. 80. for his owne cause to goe about to defende them partly with his stale of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 80. to the which I haue made aunswere cap. 8. pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. partely with abusing sundrie places of the Scriptures and of the same Fathers which condemned those Heretikes to the which I haue answered cap. 8. and 9. partly also with more insolencie to charge those Fathers rather as defending Heresie agaynst Aerius c. cap. 3. wherevnto I haue answered cap. 6. sauing that the two Heresies which he layeth to them that hold with the Machabées and with Traditions as the Fathers do cap. 9. pag. 165. cap. 3.7 pa. 12.85 I haue answered in this present chap. in the 36. 29. Demaunds And so with one labour I haue cléered both the Fathers our selues together not to be Gnostici Valentinians Carpocratians Collyridians Ossenes Caianes in our Traditions in our Crosses and other Images in our Inuocation of Angels and Sants and worshipping of their Relikes nor to be Manichées Tiacianistes Montanistes Aerians in our Abstinence and Fastingdayes in our single life nor Gentiles Carpocratians Origenists Heracleonites Montanistes in our name of Sacrifice in our Purgatory Anealing and praying for the dead nor Arrians in our beeres for burying For such is his modesty and Christianity and truth to charge the Pillers of Christ with such heresies yea and moreouer to saye generally as I noted cap. 3. pag. 9. that if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they woulde drawe it into vse whiche was the greate corrupting of those auncient tymes That we maye nowe be more content to heare him charge vs and say with all generalitie that is possible Pur. 287. In all tymes when soeuer and wheresoeuer was any peese of miste or darke corner though all the rest were light there were the steppes of your walke Which two golden sayings of his procéede of these two diuine opinions of their new Gospel that the Primitiue Church should prepare the way to Antichrist and that Christes Vicare should be Antichrist Wherof I haue spoken ynough cap. 8. and 9. Such opinions must vtter such sayings And yet not able for all that truely to charge the Church either Primitiue or of later time with so much as one point of Antichristianisme or Heresie as partly I haue declared cap. 6. and now wil declare for the rest They are such matters as agrée no otherwise to vs then to them whom he dare not to condemne and therfore not in the same maner as to the old Heretikes Ar. 21.22 Epiph. s 3. Haer. 80. 1. Cor 11. Hier. in Ezech 44. Of the Messalians or Martyrians you lerned saith he to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Comas muliebres producunt They kepe their heare long like women Do we so Be our heades like womens long heades womens heads bylike are rounded heades or S. Paule did meane that men should poll their heades Ita ad pressum tondentes vt rasorum similes videantur Cutting them so neare the skin that they should be like to shauen heades Or do not some Protestantes weare round heads and shaue their beardes as well as some Catholikes and some Catholikes euen also the Cleargie in Italie and Spayne weare beardes and polled heades as well as some Protestantes Epiphanius noteth it in those Monkes because they did it in contentione of contention and at that time and in that place when and where the Apostles statutes and the Churches orders were to the contrarie as yet they be touching womanly heades but not also euery where touching shauen beardes It is a signe that you abounde with substantiall stuffe against vs that you lay our heares to our charge Nothing was wont with you to be heresie vnlesse it could be proued contrarie to expresse Scripture Sup. dem 36. so easily we might answere all by your principles and that also excepting ceremonies Yet now conformitie and obedience to comly order for lacke of better matter must go for heresie Sée whether we do not more substātially charge you with the Messalians heresie for saying that the Sacraments and namely Baptisme Theo Haer. fab li. 4. Dam. Haer. 80. Eucharist and Orders do not conferre grace Reade Theodorete and Damascene Of the Pharisees you receiued your superstitious masking garments which you call Amictus Dalmaticus and Pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Doth not also your owne order appoynt speciall and gorgeous garmentes in the ministrations And that in the Primitiue Church also were such I haue shewed here in the 21. Demaund and by name if you will you may reade of the Deacons Dalmatica and Alba to be worne in the time of the oblation and lesson out of the Gospell Con. Carth. 4. cap. 41. as also in other places both of them and the rest You might as well or also better haue brought this against the Leuiticall garments in the ministeries of the Iudaicall Temple Epipha ep ante lib. de Haer. Haer. 15.16 You do not consider that Epiphanius there reporteth the seuen sectes of the Iewes and describeth them namely the Scribes and the Pharisées in their common daily garments being Stolae siue Pallia and Dalmaticae siue amicula as we might say cassocks and gownes or clokes vpon them with simbriae fringes commaunded Nu. 15. Deut. 22. to haue made for ostentation of holines certayne superstitious additions enlargementes by which our Sauiour Mat. 23. doth note their hipocrisie Doth not this make sore against holy vestments in the Seruice of God An other sect of the Iewes were Hemerobaptistae touched by our Sauiour Mar. 7. Epipha ep ad Acac. Paulum Haer. 17. who said Neminē assequi vitam aeternam nisi qui quotidie baptizaretur None to obtaine life euerlasting but such a one as were baptized or washed euery day Of these were deriued your holy water saith Fulke to vs which you say you vse to put men in mind of their Baptisme O I sée our fault although we baptize but once for life euerlasting yet we would haue men to remember it euery day S. Paule deceaued vs Rom.
for denying of Baptisme to Infantes I am not able to say Bern. Ser. 66. super Cant. Saint Bernard himselfe no meaner witnesse at the very same time writeth it and you doubt whether they were not sclaundered But certaine it is that the godly called Pauperes de Lugduno and VValdenses were sclaundered with many detestable opinions which it is nowe well knowen that they neuer did hold So you say but you shew it not I referre the Reader for breuitie to Doctor Saunders Monarchie lib. 7. pag. 493. who alleageth his Authors and them of iust credite that these Pauperes de Lugduno were a very order of fryers begunne by one Valdesius and that they helde many detestable opinions as you do well terme them namely against all iudgeing to bloud or to any other corporall punishment Item all carnall commixtion c. Finally therefore I note that you say Wee haue alwayes abhorred the detestable Heresies of the Anabaptistes Ar. 61.62.63 Pur. 19.420 Libertines Suenkefeldians Dauidians Seruitians and all such detestable and abhominable Heretikes of this time None but fooles will thinke them to be Protestantes So say wée that none but fooles will thinke those others to be Protestantes although they agrée with you in some things For so doe these also in some things yea and in more things then any of the others 41. Studying all Trueth Motiue 31. Hauing in these last Demaundes shewed that our Church is the Conseruer and Kéeper of all trueth and the Protestants contrariwise no more but brochers of old and new heresies I do in this Demaund note what Schooles and Vniuersities our church hath erected and what orders she hath set for the Teaching and learning of all diuine trueth to defend all against all sortes of enemies wheras the Protestant students for the most part know not what the course of Diuinitie meaneth Touching this matter I finde where Fulke saieth that of late dayes Ar. 52.53 diuerse Vniuersities Schooles and Colledges are erected by Protestantes in Germanie and other Countries that haue receaued the Gospell Whereas Doctor Allen demaundeth of such erections as were any time before Luther beganne them he noteth all to haue béen ours and none of the Protestantes which is so plaine that Fulke rehearseth the first Colledges of Monkes saying they were Colledges of studentes and like a blind man seeth not that to make with vs as more at large I haue shewed here in the 25. Demaund being of Monkes Now when certaine Princes seduced by you destroyed all Monasteries with the which also the Colledges of the Vniuersities in England went together by the Parliament in such an hazard they were was it not forsooth a gratious prouision of them to set vp a fewe petite Schooles in stéede of them howbeit that also no otherwise then by apish imitation of the Catholike Churches scholes nor before that they saw by experience all learning to be packed away together with the Friers other Catholiks And yet you brag that there was neuer so great store of learning in any age Pur. 7.8 as there is nowe in these our dayes in the Protestantes Wherin you shew your selfe to be still as we were when wée were children in the Grammer schole where we thought that no man could be better learned then our Master you may bragge so before babes We that knowe both your and the Catholike scholes can but laugh at your childishnesse You speake of knowledge of the tongues and rationall sciences There are more declamations in Gréeke in one common schole of the Iesuites then in both your Vniuersities I dare say being ioyned together and better Masters of Arte of two or thrée yéeres teaching through all Logicke and Philosophie then with you in seuen yeares And the very Masters of such things with vs of Hebrew of Gréeke of Latine of Poetrie of Logicke of Philosophie doe they thinke you count themselues therefore learned in Diuinitie which they neuer studied or better learned in it then the professors of it lacking the tonges or the eloquence of thē as S. Thomas Aquinus S. Augustine the Apostles What a madnesse were that This rather is rudenesse and barbarousnesse as in our Countrey to thinke a mere Grammer Scholemaster sufficient to be Doctor of Diuinitie yea and a Bishop also not for other qualities of them I speake not but euen for Diuinitie No no M. Fulke Regnum Grammaticorum is past date all are not children as they were when this geare began your tongues will not nowe serue no nor your studie of Diuinitie it self in Caluines schole Come once to the Catholike scholes as Gods grace can bring you and I beséeche him to doe it and you will be ashamed of your selfe as many a one alreadie is that thought himselfe and was thought of others at home a iolly fellow Peraduenture you haue read Francis Stancarus a Doctor procéeded out of your owne Schole and hath his Gnatonicos Stanc li. de Trin. Mediatore as well as your other Gnatoes where he writeth thus Plus valet vnus Petrus Lomberdus c. One Petrus Lombardus who is you know our Master of the Sentences is more worth then 100. Luthers 200. Melancthons 300. Bullingers 400. Peter Martyrs et 500. Caluini and 500. Caluines Who all if they were punde together in one Morter there could not be beaten out of them one ounce of true Diuinitie specially in the Articles of the Trinitie Incarnation Mediator and Sacramentes He vseth here his fellowes your Masters very boldly but what remedie So yll were they studied in those Articles and specially in the thrée formost because their care and studie was not to vnderstand and defend Christian trueth but onely to picke vaine quarels against Gods Church in other matters And therefore you the petite Protestants must néedes forsooth be great Doctors 42. Vnsent Motiue 21. In my next Demaund I note both those your Masters and you their Disciples to be such as God speaketh of by his Prophete They did runne and I did not send them A wise Church Iere. 23. that hath no Preachers and Teachers but onely such as tooke the honor to themselues or at their handes who tooke to them selues the authoritie to send which no man gaue them Mere lay men are the roote the spring and the giuers both of your Orders as here in the .24 Dem. I said and also of your Commission and of your spirituall iurisdiction Who euer heard the like in the Church of Christ You haue no answere vnto it You are as the auncient writers doe tearme such children without any Fathers You are like the Poetes men that Deucalion made of stones you doe not descend of Adam Rayle as long as you may at Gods Church and her spirituall external iurisdiction in her Censures penalties Ar. 17.18.19.30.98 and al other discipline as Excommunication Suspention Interdighting also Dagradation c. you doe no more but shew that you vnderstand not the things whereof you
speake All is done still as it was in the Primitiue Church with the selfe same authoritie and with the same affection and discretion if the Iudges doe not swarue from the Churches Lawes 43. Succession Motiue 22. Article 8. Consequently in the next Demaund I say that the true Church must be descended by lineall and continuall Succession from the Apostles and that our Church is so descended and that the Protestantes Church is not so descended About this Fulke doth many wayes contradict himselfe as I will shewe in the next Chapter because he can not tell what to say vnto it Yet to helpe him as much as may be and as I doe vse euery where to frame his arguments to his purpose and to bring them into some order He may say two things first that they may haue the true Church although they haue not Succession secondly that we may lacke the true Church although we haue succession To the first he may referre these words of his owne vnto D. Allen Ar. 26. You are neuer able to proue that any suche orderly Succession according to persons and places was promised to the Church that we should shewe you the performance thereof in our Church Whether that can not be proued my first Demaund here will shew which declareth that S. Augustine hath already proued out of the Scriptures for vs that the Churche should beginne at Hierusalem and from thence grow ouer all Nations continually to the worldes ende as also with our eyes we sée that vnto this our time it hath done And euen the place which you goe about to answere proueth it playnly Continuall Succession of persons in the ministerie I say with D. Allen euen vntill Christes comming agayne Ephe. 4. Christus ascendens c. Christ ascending gaue giftes to men some to be Apostles some Euangelistes some Prophets some Pastors and Teachers to the completing of the holy for the worke of ministerie for the building of the body of Christ Donec occurramus omnes c. Vntill we meete all in the vnitie of faith and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God in a perfect man in the measure of the age plenitudinis Christi of the fulnesse of Christ that is Ephe. 1. of his Church He sayth so expresly vntill the finishing of the Church But that you would not sée you thought better to cauill and say The offices of the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoynted to continue alwayes in the Churche but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the world Why doe you not say the like of the other two Pastors and Teachers if they at the least were appointed to continue alwayes you sée a Succession of Persons And how can Saint Paules saying be otherwise verifyed vnlesse some of those fiue shoulde alwayes continue if not all as the wordes doe rather import For you séeme to deceyue your selfe by thinking that none are Apostles but the twelue none Euangelistes but the foure none Prophetes but the foretellers of things to come Whereas in déede all the Successors of Saint Peter are Apostles as I noted in the .28 Demaund and also whosoeuer else be the first conuerters of any Nation and all the expounders of the Euangelistes and Prophetes are Euangelistes and Prophets which you will not denie if you haue any skill in vnderstanding the Scriptures No difference being betwéene these offices in the beginning and nowe but onely that then they were giuen by miracle and now by order As touching the second you graunt our Church to haue such continuall Succession and inferre therevpon Ergo it is not the true Church here Cap. 2. Pag. 5. because the true Church should at some time or other be driuen out of sight Wherevnto I haue answered Cap. 8. Pag. 144. shewing that you doe fouly abuse the Scripture to that false conclusion and namely that the time of the Churches flying into the wildernesse is not yet come Againe you argue If it be sufficient Ar. 27. or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeeded in all ages in the Bishops Sees in an outward face of the Church the Greeke Churche is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession What of that but onely this that they therfore may better claime the Churche then you And yet in trueth these Hereticall and Schismaticall Gréekes can no more shew Succession then you For your false Bishops are now in the Sées of C. Pole of B. Bonner of B. Therlebie c. and yet I trowe you will not thereby claime Succession So these later Gréekes haue not Succession but from them onely who beganne this Separation of theirs and their heresies about the H. Ghostes procéeding c. For in Saint Gregories time whiche is ynough they were in vnitie Nam de Constantinopolitana Ecclesia Greg. li. 7. Epist 63. quis eam dubitet Sedi Apostolicae esse subiectam c. For as touching the Churche of Constantinople saieth he who can doubt that it is subiect to the See Apostolike which thing both our most clement Lord the Emperour and our brother Eusebius Bishop of the same Citie doe dayly professe 44. Apostolike Church Motiue 23. Next vnto this I say that it is we not the Protestants which beleue the Apostolike church because we beleue the Romane church which hath the See of the two most glorious Apostles S. Peter S. Paul which was ment by those Fathers who in their Coūcell added to the article of the créede the word Apostolike therby to specify the better the Catholike Church against such heretikes as durst challenge to themselues the Catholike Church but had no colour to challenge the Romane Church namely that Bishop of Rome which sat in the Apostles chaire that is which orderly and canonically succéeded the Apostles For otherwise the Donatistes and some others we know had their mocke bishop at Rome in a corner whom they sent thither out of other countries to lurke there for a stale to their simple people which thing among others might cause the Fathers in their exposition of the Créede to say rather the Apostolike Church then the Romane Church Ar. 96. Vnto this Fulke hath two shiftes First he saith You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome And then where is al your bragges of Apostolike Sea and succession c Sée here cap. 2. pag. 3. how he confesseth that S. Augustine and many other of the Fathers did likewise alleadge against Heretikes the succession of that Apostolike Sée And therfore consider to whom and for whom it is that now he saith And then where is all your bragges c I would not desire a better cause to discredite quite these absurd Protestantes then that they deny S. Peter to haue béen euer at Rome For who knoweth not that all the auncient writers are against them therein
many thousand men haue in that new world receiued the faith of Christ as may be in this our old world So is the comparison at this present time But how much greater yet is the oddes if we looke backe to the times past and consider that in the Nations where now the Sectes are a few yeares agoe all were Catholikes they occupied all the Churches so many hundred yeares together as from the first conuersion of ech Nation Yea generally in all other Christian Nations also wheresoeuer whensoeuer euen from the Apostles time all were of our communion because all at ech time were of the Popes communion who for the time was and al the Popes from the first to the last of one communion no one of them separating himselfe from his predecessors communion as of purpose I shewed in the 28. Demaund This is the Communion of Saintes in déede not these scattered Sectes much lesse any one of them by it self alone as our English Protestantes c. Who also as I shewed in the 40. Dem. were neuer afore now therefore accordingly they professe to haue no communion with the Christians that liued before vs be now in Heauen in Purgatorie whereas with them also we haue communion of mutuall prayer helpe euen in the same manner as S. Augustine had whose communion is confessed to be the communion of all Saintes as this one place of his shall testifie for all where he sheweth that to be buried in the Martyrs Churche doth profite the deade in this that their friendes aliue remembring the place eisdem Sanctis illos Au. de cura pro mort ca. 4. vlt. tanquā patronis susceptos apud dominū adiuuandos orando cōmendent doe pray and commend them to the same Sainctes as clients to their patrones to be holpen with our Lord. This is the most glorious infinite Christian companie that our Countrey hath forsaken to follow a fewe miserable blind guides into the pitte of euerlasting ruine 48. By their fruites Motiue 39. In the next Demaund is noted according to S. Augustines writing against the Manichées De moribus Ecclesiae Catholicae the fruites of the Catholike Religion that Christ worketh in this foresaid communion both now euer in the good life euen of the common sorte of our seculare people and much more in the perfection of our Religious And contrariwise the waste of all perfection and of all vertue which the Protestantes Doctrine hath brought wheresoeuer it raigneth by setting men at libertie to doe what they liste with vaine securitie of Onely faith not the Catholike faith which onely is faith but of a new inuented faith or persuasion for euery one that he is predestinate That if euer any False prophetes mighte be knowen by their fruites Mat. 7. these may I néede not repete the rest that I say in this Demaūd to this effect Pur. 1. to 31 241.459 Ar. 94. whereof D. Allen also hath in his Preface said sufficiently Fulke in comparing with vs to the contrarie bragging at his felowes holines and rayling at some of our euill liues thinketh bylike that he can with wordes turne midday and midnight one into the other He nameth London as it is now and biddeth D. Allen if thou canst for thy guts name any citie in the world that is comparable vnto it Who would require vs to answere such beastly impudencie With like audacitie he rayleth at Rome as if it were hell it selfe I maruaile then how it commeth to passe that nothing more confirmeth our Countrymen in the Catholike faith nor alienateth them from the Protestāts then to goe and see Rome Whereof we haue innumerable experiences 2. Reg. 10. At one word we find there as the Quéene of Saba did find with Salamon whatsoeuer we heare by reading in S. Hierome c. Also by reuelation of our brethren whē we come to the place and sée with our eyes we are forced to say that halfe was not told vs. I hope the world shall know Rome to your confusion ere it be long by a booke that may with the grace of God be set forth to reporte the trueth As for London no true and godly English heart can but feare vnto it euen as to Sodome and Gomorre We néede to name vnto you no other citie but London it selfe when it was Catholike and let the Auncients be iudges betwene vs both They can tell you that if any good orders be there at this present they are lightly but the relikes of the Catholike time as it were feathers stickt downe by such as stole the géese So can they tell you of the whole realme and the like of all other realmes Pur. 238.236 You charge D. Allen that he appealeth to the yonger sort who haue not knowen c. But you charge him falsly He telleth good yong men that they must looke backe a great way to learne their duties of the blessed times past Which thāks be to God great numbers haue done and dayle doe and thereby returne and submit them selues to their mother the Catholike Church which if the elder sorte who know these thinges better then the yonger do not in like maner it is for no other cause but that they be more entangled with the world then the yonger are otherwise if the world were not on your side 2. Cor. 5. it is well knowen to them specially in whom God hath put the word of reconciliation that your ministers might in all places almost reade and preach to the bare walles 49 All enimies Moti 44. Article 4. The 49. Demaund noteth that it is our Church against which all enimies of Christ haue fought and which hath preuailed against them all As it is euident by this that our Church holdeth still all those truethes which Arrius Aerius or any other of hell gates did euer impugne and because it ioyneth friendship with no enimie but defieth them all alike whereas the Protestantes ioyne in opinion with many olde Heretikes and in friendship with all the miscreantes of this time because their endeuour is not against falshood but onely to ouerthrow our Church Against this Fulke hath nothing but rather with it expresly where he saith Ar. 11.15 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions and by the ayde of God obteined the victorie The true Church of Christ hath always stood stedfast when all Heretikes haue bene and shall be confounded 50 Sure to continue Motiue 47 After this I tell the Protestants that they were best to leaue their vaine kicking with Saul against the pricke Act. 9. because they can not preuayle as neither their prowders could The Fathers euen so tolde those prowder and mightier Heretikes in their time that the Church I say and namely the Church of Rome is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not ouercome And we sée that time hath iustified their saying And so will it iustifie our saying
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these
their liues as by the storie it is certayne The other that neither these afore their appearing were secrete Protestantes or Heretikes but open Papistes or Catholikes as I noted before of Luther And so he hath not yet found his Chimera or inuisible Church 20 To bring her againe into open light Ar. 16.96 Which is now brought to passe in our dayes Contra From the yere of our Lord 1414. Ar. 36. being the time of the Councell of Constance the bright beames of the Gospell haue shined in the world 21 The Reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was An. 607. when Bonifacius the third c. Ar. 38.36.16 For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation and cōming and for the Generall defection Contra Ar. 16. She hath not decayed there in the wildernes but bene always preserued vntil god should reueale Antichrist which is now brought to passe in our dayes 22 The Churches being in the wildernes was Ar. 27.95 to be out of the sight knowledge of the wicked Contra speaking of the same space She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season Againe Although it were vnknowen to the Papistes yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached in Fraunce when Waldo in England whē Wickleue in Bohemia when Hus and Ierom of Prage did florish Why all these were well knowen to the Papistes Ar. 80. 23 A rule of the Logicians No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a bodie in earth yet could it be knowen of none but such as knew Christ the head of that bodie of whom the Papistes were ignorant Ar. 96. Contra Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowlege of the world So that now bylike the Papistes know Christ Pur. 450. Ar. 77.79.80 or the Logicians rule is verified onely for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes according as in other places he moderateth the matter saying We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowen to the wicked vpon earth Pur. 405. Ar. 95.82.74.80 24 We beleeue that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Contra Our Church when it was most hidden might rightly be called Catholike that is vniuersall c. Here cap. 10. Dem. 6. And whereas you say that no man aliue could name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members thereof Pur. 377. 25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place or companie of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs al. Contra c Ar. 95.79.82.106 That no man aliue could name the place where it was is an impudent lye It was in Italy when Marsilius preached c. Vt supra in contrad 22. c Ar. 95.79.82.106 Chrs s t hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse c Ar. 95.79.82.106 She was knowen to them that were her children c Ar. 95.79.82.106 The Church of Christ is the nurse of Christians Ierusalem that is from aboue is mother of vs all Ar. 95. 26 It is not called Catholike because it should be euery where For that it neuer was nor neuer shall be Contra d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa 10. d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 That God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation it is necessarie to beleeue d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world 27 e Ar. 12.3.69 Christes Church is now by God inlarged farther thē the Popish Church Contra f Ar. 73.80 It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant Church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. 28 It is a good argument that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ Ar. 27. because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our Church were not the true Church if we could name suche notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Contra a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Suche officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of fayth and the knowledge of Christe our Churche hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 because our Churche had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Churche in all ages a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Our Congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures Their inuisible Church had alvvayes the Scripture in the vulgare tongues a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath neuer suffered the true Churche to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Whiche the Popishe Churche hath so keapt in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse muche lesse the necessarie vse thereof a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Churche of God hath alwayes had Scholes and Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 It was neuer so secret nor hidden but it might be knowen of all those that had eyes to see it a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 That thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Church hath neuer bene afrayde to do her office towards her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Contra Ar. 27. Ar. 85. The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the word of trueth 30 Touching the text Mat. 5. of a Citie buylded vpon an hill Ar. 100. which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their error do expoūd this place to proue that the Church must alwayes be visible Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie