well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
be whereby we come to assurance that these bookes are the word of God let it suffice all men that both we and you agree they are so But I pray tell me Are the determinations of the Church any more certaine What ground haue I but the word of some men that the Church hath so determined It is not a matter so agreed vpon betwixt vs as the bookes of Scripture are Out of question the ods is on our side It is doubtfull whether you Romanistes are the Church or no it is out of doubt these bookes are the infallible word of God But you will say the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood as well because they are written in Hebrew and Greeke as also for the kind of writing Are not all the Decrees of your Councels and determinations of your Popes Consistorie written either in Greeke or Latin or in the Italian language in none of which one man among ten thousand hath any skill And is there not as great reason to thinke the Scriptures are rightly translated as your Decrees Decretals and Determinations Especially when as we commonly alledge the interpretations of the ancient Fathers and learned Papists for the auowing of our translations But the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood though a man be skilfull in the tongues And are the Decrees of your Councels so easie that euery man may vnderstād them who knowes the language they are written in Doth not Bellarmine condemne and confute our writers Caluin Chemnitius and other for not vnderstanding the Decrees of your Councell of Trent written in Latine which language they were as skilfull in as himselfe If they be so easie how chance Bishop Catharin and Frier Soto that were both present at the Councell and heard the debating of matters can not agree about the doctrine of it concerning assurance of saluation which as Soto affirmes was the longest and most troublesome disputation of all in the Councell and therefore should haue bene best vnderstood and plainliest deliuered Yet is it so propounded by the holy fathers the authors of it that Catharin saith boldly he foresaw that most men would vnderstand the words of the Decree otherwise then the holy Synod meant them Was there not great contention within these very few yeares betwixt Archbishop Christophor de Capite fontium and many other Diuines about the meanes of transsubstantiating the bread though in his iudgement the Councel of Trent makes manifestly for him I forbeare to say that some points seeme to haue bene craftily set downe of purpose like the oracles of Apollo that which way soeuer they be taken the Church may not seeme to haue erred Neither will I adde that diuerse matters are deliuered by Councels not as points of faith but as probable coniectures which yet may be and are taken by some of your owne learned writers as if they were resolutely determined for certaine truth These things considered I see no sufficient reason why it should not be as fit and safe to learne of the Scripture which is the infallible truth as of any companie of men whatsoeuer But you labour to commend to vs this resting on the authoritie of the Romish Church by some especiall commodities that shall ensue thereupon The first wherof is ease the 2. certaintie of knowledge He shall not need say you to straine his wits in studying c. If ease were not too much delighted in by men of your profession there would not be such swarms of idle Monks Fryers Nuns nonresident Bishops and Priests amongst you But true Christians vnderstand that it was not Gods purpose to prouide so much for their ease by giuing them leaue to beleeue at aduenture hand ouer head whatsoeuer it should please men to enioyne thē but that it is his good pleasure that all men should carefully and painfully exercise themselues night and day in reading and meditating of the Scriptures He is too nice and dainty a professor of religion that is loth to straine his wits to the vttermost in the study of any thing reuealed by God in Scripture What shall I say of him that cals conference and disputation about euen the greatest points of faith and iustification wasting of words in wrangling Nec se magnanimo maledicere sentit Achilli It is strange you should not haue the wit to perceiue that by this censure you condemne Lombard Thomas and all your schoole men yea the Pope and generall councels who are bound to vse such meanes for the finding out of the truth and as Sotus saith did vse them in a long and troublesome disputation yet forsooth neither the one nor the other at least both together cannot erre No man then ought to refuse study or disputation of controuersies in diuinitie because they are troublesome Therefore to mend the matter you adde that they are also vncertaine what can be certain but only reuelation if the true vse of reason can breed nothing but vncertainty How idly and vainly did your schoolemen imploy themselues if all their study and labour must end in vncertainty What vse is there of Councels for finding out of the truth since the helpe to be had of them is debating of matters by reasoning Do we not find in daily experience that as flint and steele stricken together bring forth fire so truth is as it were beaten out by disputation It is reported you make great shewes of desiring a disputation I maruaile to what end If when all comes to all your auditors shall still remaine vncertaine what is true Shall I go yet farther You tell vs the Church cannot erre we beleeue you not you alledge some places of Scripture to proue it to vs we say they proue no such matter what course will you take It is in vaine to dispute of it that is as you say to wast words in wrangling about it For that is but an vncertaine meanes to find-out the truth Haue you not brought matters to a good passe thinke you when you professe that there is no meanes to discern certainlie whether the Church can erre or no but onely to take her own word for it Yea no meanes left to know that she is the Church For if you will againe fly to the Scriptures you run into the former difficulties and end as before in vncertainty Who would haue to do with such vnreasonable men But that you may not seeme to leaue vs in vncertainty you tel vs that we may most certainly be instructed in all particular points of controuersies by onely enquiring and finding out what is holden generally by the Church for truth c. You send vs to the faith of the Church and namely of the Church of Rome Which say we is onely so farre forth to be yeelded vnto as it is agreeable to the Scriptures Neither do we say so onely but Ambrose long before our time hath said the like We are commanded saith
intēded by the holy Ghost at the least in many places it cannot be the Apostles meaning that no man knoweth the sense of our Lord in the Scripture But the more you mistake the sense of the holy Ghost in Scripture the better you proue your opinion that no naturall wit or learning can bring a man to the vnderstanding thereof onely you must take heed of ouerweening your owne wit and learning and so of erring by drawing a generall conclusion against all men from your owne defect which also perhaps is not so much for want of wit or learning as for lacke of paines taking and because of a preiudicate conceit against the truth A. D. §. 4. Hence I inferre that those who for matters of faith relie wholy either vpon their owne priuate opinion or iudgement of the sense and meaning of Scripture or vpon the learning and iudgement of others who are but men not infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost nor by him vnfallibly preserued from errour as many or rather all Protestants do those I say cannot haue diuine and Christian faith but onely fallible opinion and humane faith As before I granted your conclusion that naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith so I now acknowledge the truth of your illation which you bring in thereupon that he which relieth wholly vpon his owne priuate opinion or any other mans iudgement can haue no true faith Yet must I again remember that to rely vpon such opinion or iudgement is to take that for truth which is taught barely vpon the credit of the teacher For otherwise a man may haue a true faith that is a certain and infallible assent to the truth though he beleeue vpon euident reason those points interpretations which are proued to him by men without any infallible authoritie of the Church But whereas you charge many or rather all Protestants to rely so vpon the iudgement of men I hope you do it without the authoritie of your Church that cannot erre for I am sure you do it without any shew of truth No Protestant of any discretion not onely not all beleeueth the doctrine of the Gospell in generall or any one particular interpretation as a matter of faith vpon any mans credit whatsoeuer This reuerence indeed we giue to our teachers that we rather trust their iudgement then our owne and dare not dissent from them but where we haue great likelihood of reason at least to the contrary Howsoeuer we ground no point of faith vpon any interpretation which is not plaine and euident to any man that will take paines to examine it according to true reason A. D. CHAP. IX That a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith A. W. A man may easily perceiue that you chuse to say any thing rather then nothing and therefore you make your selfe worke Chapter after Chapter I shall not need to repeate that which I haue noted before this Chapter giueth sufficient euidence of that I say What a strange kind of speech is this that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith No spirit neither priuate nor publick is ordinarily the rule of faith no not the most holy spirit of God but onely as he speaketh in the Scripture who alwayes teacheth one and the same truth publickly and priuately A. D. §. 1. The third conclusion is that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church A. W. This is the interpretation of the title of your Chapter No priuate spirit that is no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit c. I cannot tel whether I shold thinke you haue forgotten to speake English or purposely affect as strange doctrine so strange speech also To be singularly instructed with vs plaine Englishmen is to be taught in rare and excellent sort not to be apart or seuerally alone instructed which is your meaning I grant mens priuat opinions are called singular and the men themselues that haue such conceits are also so termed but he that professeth plainnesse to teach all kind of men should labour to speake so that all might vnderstand him But to the matter Whose opinion is it that any such man as you conceit or any man at all can be the rule of faith Sure not ours who as it hath often bene said giue this honour only to the word of God If any man hold that opinion vnlesse perhaps the senslesse Anabaptists with whom we haue nothing to do you are they who as it seemeth by the exception you adde grant that with limitation a man may be the rule of faith For you say he cannot be the rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church Do you not imply in this speech that so farre forth as he agreeth with the doctrine of the Catholick Church he may be the rule of faith But I obserue one rare thing in your course of disputing that you ordinarily propound your matter in such sort that you are faine presently after to make one exception or other Scripture alone say you cannot be the rule of faith is this all you meane No a limitation followeth Especially as it is translated by Protestants into English No naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith What by no meanes except they be infallibly assisted by the holy spirit of God In this Chapter we haue the like course held by you But leaue we this and be take our selues to consider your proofe A. D. §. 2. This I proue first because Saint Paul saith Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praeter id quod accepistis Anathemasit pronouncing generally that whosoeuer teacheth or preacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church should be held Anathematized or accursed A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith First I desire all men to obserue that this argument of yours doth not proue that a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith but onely so farre forth as he doth disagree from the doctrine of the Church otherwise for all this reason he may be Wherein you speake absurdly and falsly Absurdly in propounding such a question to refute as neither we whom you professe to refute nor any reasonable man would euer once imagne viz. that a priuate spirit teaching an vntruth might be the rule of faith For how can that be but an vntruth which is contrary to that the Apostle deliuered by his preaching
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
may also thus vnderstand it that Christ appeared to be the word and the truth and wisedome frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world to the last writing of the Apostles that is from Genesis to the Apostles books after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef Or thus that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn in whom the brightnesse of truth was The East was the Law the West Iohn the end of the Law Now onely the Church neither takes away the word and sense of this brightnesse nor addes any thing else as propheticall The place you bring lieth thus Euery doctrine professing it selfe to be truth when it is not truth either among the Gentiles or among the Barbarians is in some sort Antichrist going about to seduce as truth and to seuer vs from him that said I am the truth Therefore we must not giue eare to them which say Behold here is Christ but do not shew him in the Church which is full of brightnesse from the East to the West which is full of the true light which is the pillar and ground of truth in which whole Church the whole comming of the Sonne of man is Now the comming of the Sonne of man is before expounded by him to be the word of truth Doubtlesse if you had not taken this proofe vpon Bellarmines or some other mans credit you would neuer haue brought it to proue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times What saith Cyprian in the place alledged but that the Church is dispersed ouer the whole world Doth this proue that it is at all times visible to all men Or hath Cyprian any such purpose in that place Is not his whole drift to shew that there is but one Church because the truth they professe is but one The title of his booke is Of the vnitie of the Church The place you bring concludes that howsoeuer the beames are scattered or spread here and there yet the light is but one The Church that is true beleeuers were in this land in the dayes of persecutiō and is now in Spaine Italy and perhaps in Rome it selfe This proues not a perpetuall visibilitie What need we any other answer to this testimonie of Chrysostome then that which your owne exposition affoords vs Chrysostoms meaning is that the Church cannot be quite without light say you What thē Must it needs be visible then to al men The Moone is neuer wholy darkened no not in the greatest eclipse nor in the change but is alwayes in the one halfe light and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon that therefore it may be seene at all times of all men Indeed Chrysostome speaketh of the continuance of the Church not of the visiblenesse thereof That may appeare by his saying that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth This argues stabilitie not visibilitie And what Church hath rooting in heauen but onely the Church of the elect The Church saith Chrysostome in the same place is more honorable then heauen because heauen is made for it not it for heauen Is heauen made for any Church but that of the elect Besides it was not the visibility but the being of the Church against which those tyrants whom Chrysostome there mentioneth so mightily laboured which yet continued in despight of them all These and such like places of Austin shew the flourishing estate of the Churches in those times and conuince the Donatists against whom Augustine writ of wofull blindnesse who would see no church but their owne heretical assembly in a part of Africa But they neither were intended not can with any reason be applied to proue that the church is alwayes visible to all men The former of the two places as I shewed before is interpreted by the Fathers of the Apostles That the Apostles saith Ierome should not hide themselues for feare but freely shew themselues he teacheth them to preach boldly when he saith A citie set vpon an hill cannot be hid But let vs take it to be meant of the Church It must needs be a monstrous hill that can shew a citie set vpon it to the whole world A citie standing on a hill is the easier and the farther to be seene but there is no hill high enough to be seene ouer the whole world I would farther know whether euery particular Church be not a citie vpon an hill or no. And yet is no such Church to be seene of all men Concerning the latter place Austin worthily cals them blind that could not or rather as he truly saith would not see that great mountaine vpon which the Church then stood but would shut their eyes against the light that shined vpon them Yet who is so ignorant that he knowes not or so shamelesse that he will not cōfesse that there were many aliue at that very time which had no knowledge that there was any Church in the world But there neither were nor could be any such among the Donatists or other like heretickes who forsooke the Church to follow their owne fantasies The candle is the Minister or the word shining by his ministery the candlesticke is the particular Church where that ministery is if any liuing in or neare the place where such a candle burneth bright will not see the light of it he may well be called wilfully blind So may not they which are so far that the beames of the light cannot shine vnto them Now the summe of that which hath bene answered concerning the perpetuall continuance and visiblenesse of the church is this that the church to which that continuance is promised is the number of the elect and not any one outward companie of men succeeding one another in a famous and visible profession of Christian Religion Yea farther though we do not vndertake to affirme that there hath not bin at all times some one companie or other of true Christians knowne to them among whom they liued to be professors of the Gospell yet we doubt not to say that there can be no sufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures that there must of necessitie be alwayes such a company as if our Sauior Christs promises to his church were not performed vnlesse the world might at all times perceiue where such a companie were to be found A. D. CHAP. XIII How we should discerne and know which is the true visible Church of Christ A. W. It may perhaps seeme needlesse that I should proceed any further in the confutation of this treatise because still the maine point that there is such a Church is presupposed and not proued But howsoeuer it be true that there is indeed no one visible church of Christ which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church yet it will be worth the doing to finde out the markes or signes by which we may discerne which congregation is a true church of Christ and which is not
thy name prophecied and by thy name cast out diuels and by thy name done many great workes And then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me ye that worke iniquitie But it is strange that you should make true inward sanctitie the marke of the true Church and so confidently affirme that no doubt in the Church there are alwaies some holy when as you maintaine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the true Church that he professe outwardly though he haue no one vertue within him at all If all the members of the Church may be void of holinesse how is holinesse a good marke of the Church Certainly it is at the most but accidentall and such as the Church may haue or lacke without being or ceasing to be a Church thereby He is well holpe vp no doubt that must learne how to know the true Church of such teachers You haue prooued after your fashion that the Church is holy now you will prooue that no companie but the Church is holy No sect of heretickes is truly holy All companies of Christians besides that of the true Church are sects of hereticks Therefore no companie of Christians besides that of the true Church is truly holy If by hereticks you vnderstand onely those that erre in some fundamentall points of religion I grant your Maior and Minor As for the conclusion I am resolued of the truth thereof without any proofe from you But if you acount all hereticks who in the error of their iudgement dissent from other Churches of Christ in matters not fundamentall though true I denie your said Maior and affirme that diuers Churches may differ in opinion one from another and continue in that difference maintaine it confidently so they do it not against their knowledge and conscience and yet all of them be true Churches of Christ and truly holy For as long as the opinions a man holds do not cut him off from being a true member of the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ they make him not cease to be a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified But he that beleeueth truly in Iesus Christ and holds no fundamentall error continues by faith a member of our Sauiours mysticall bodie For as the iust liues by faith so wheresoeuer there is true faith there is life also but there is no life out of the bodie of Christ because the spirit of Christ is not to be had but in his bodie And therefore he that by faith remaineth a member of Christs bodie is a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified though not perfectly holy Here we haue the proofe of your Maior such as it is If the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie be opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the rootes of true sanctitie then no sect of heresies is truly holy But the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie is opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the roots of true sanctitie Therefore no sect of hereticks is truly holy If by true Christian faith you meane any particular truth as a Christian ought to beleeue euerie truth of God though not so as that ignorance or misbeleeuing of euerie point can make him cease to be a true Christian I denie the consequence of your Maior I denie your Minor Not euerie heresie but that which is against the foundation onely is opposite to true Christian faith humility vnderstanding by Christian faith such a faith as is necessarily required that a man may be a true Christian by which onely he liues not by beleeuing euerie truth though that be required of him as a dutie of sanctification And so your proofe also is answered A man may haue that faith by which a Christian must liue though he be ignorant or misinstructed in diuers points of doctrine I haue seuered this part concerning humilitie from the former because it seemeth you tooke it to be of more importance and therefore labour more in the proofe of it He that doth not humble himselfe to euerie humane creature for Gods sake but proudly opposeth himselfe against the vniuersall Church cannot be holy But no hereticke doth so humble himselfe and euerie hereticke so oppose Therefore no hereticke can be holy I shewed before that there is no such vniuersall Church as you often name but neuer prooue and therefore this argument grounded vpon opposing against that which is not in regard of such a commaundement as God neuer gaue is idle and vaine More particularly I answer concerning your Maior that although pride be alwaies a sinne yet it may sometimes be found in in a man truly sanctified that in opposition against men in a matter of doctrine But your proposition in regard of the former part of it as you vnderstand it is vtterly false For it is no way against holinesse for a man not to beleeue euery doctrine that men will propound If I or an Angell from Heauen preach any otherwise to you then we haue preached let him be accursed Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. As for that place of the Apostle which you alledge your owne interpreters expound it not of the Church but of the ciuill Magistrate He cals the office of a King a humane creature saith Caietan because a King is created by the voices or consent of men and he addeth euery that he might take away all distinction betwixt Heathen and Christian kings in respect of obedience to them The Rhemists are yet more against you So he calleth the temporall magistrate say they elected by the people or holding their soueraigntie by birth and carnall propagation ordained for the Worldly wealth power and prosperitie of the subiect to put a difference directly against your interpretation betwixt the humane superioritie and the spirituall Rulers and regiment guiding and gouerning the people to a higher end But what need we any other expositor since the Apostle in the next words directeth vs how to vnderstand it Whether it be vnto the King as vnto the superiour or vnto gouernours as vnto them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well But let vs take it as generally as you will if it be against humilitie not to be subiect to the Church it is also against it not to be subiect to the King Yet I hope no man is so mad as to say that he refuseth to be subiect to him that doth not absolutely obey him in all things How then can this place proue that it is against true Christian humilitie not to beleeue the Church whatsoeuer she propound to be beleeued None but hereticks do so humble themselues and many dissenting from their brethren in diuers opinions neither deserue to be counted hereticks though they cannot be reclaimed from their errors nor to be held for schismaticks as long as they breake not off communion
ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas Dominus commendauit vsque ad praesentem Episcopum successio Sacerdotum The succession of Priests from the very seate of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord commended his sheep to be fed vntill this present Bishop doth hold me in the Catholicke Church See the same S. Austin Epist 150. Optatus li. 2. cont Parmen S. Epiphani haeres 275. S. Cyprian lib. 1. epist 6. S. Athanas Orat. 2. cont Arianos who pronounceth them to be hereticks qui aliunde quà m à tota successione Cathedrae Ecclesiasticae originem fidei suae deducunt who deriue the beginning of their faith from any other ground then from the whole succession of Ecclesiasticall chaire And this saith he is eximium admirabile argumentum ad haereticam sectam explorandam an excellent and admirable argument wherby we may espie out and discerne an hereticall sect The which argument these Fathers would neuer haue vrged and extolled so much if they had not thought that this succession was an vndoubted good marke of the Church and that with this lawfull vninterrupted Apostolicall succession of Doctours and Pastors the true Apostolicke faith and doctrine was always conioyned The which to be conioyned we may easily proue out of S. Paul himselfe who saith Dedit Pastores Doctores ad consummationem sanctorum in opus ministerij in aedificationem corporis Christi donec occurramus omnes in vnitatem fidei agnitionis Filij Dei in virum perfectum in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi Signifying that Christ our Sauiour hath appointed these outward functions of Pastors and Doctors in the Church to continue vntill the worlds end for the edification and perfection thereof and especially for this purpose vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be litle ones wauering and caried about with euery wind of doctrine Wherefore that this ordinance and appointment of Pastors and Doctors in the Church made by our Sauiour Christ may not be frustrate of the effect intended by him we must needs say that he hath decreed so to assist and direct these Pastors in teaching the doctrine of faith that the people their flocke may alwayes by their meanes be preserued from wauering in the auncient faith and from being caried about with euery wind of new doctrine The which cannot be vnlesse with succession of Pastors be alwayes conioyned succession in true doctrine at least in such sort that all the Pastors cannot at any time vniuersally erre or faile to teach the auncient and Apostolicke faith For if they should thus vniuersally erre then all the people who do and ought like sheepe follow the voice of their Pastor should also generally erre and so the whole Church which according to S. Gregorie Nazianzen consisteth of sheepe and pastors should contrary to diuers promises of our Sauiour vniuersally erre So that we may be sure that the ordinary Pastors shal neuer be so forsaken of the promised Spirit of truth that all shall generally erre and teach errors in faith or that there shall not be at all times some sufficient companie of lawfull succeding Pastors adhering to the succession of S. Peter who was by our Sauiour appointed chiefe Pastor of whom we may learne the truth and by whom we may alwayes be confirmed and continued in the true auncient faith and preserued from being caried about with the wind of vpstart error The which being so it followeth that the true Apostolicke doctrine is inseperably conioyned with the succession of lawfull Pastors especially of the Apostolick sea of Rome Wherefore we may against all heretickes of our time as the ancient fathers did against heretickes of their time vrge this argument of succession especially of the Apostolicall succession of the Bishops of Rome We may say to them as S. Augustine saith to the Donatists Numerate sacerdotes ab ipsa sede Petri in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte Number the Priests from the seate it selfe of Peter and in that order or row of Fathers see which succeeded which We may say with Irenaeus Hac ordinatione successione Episcoporum traditio Apostolorum ad nos peruenit est plenissima ostensio vnam eandem fidem esse quae ab Apostolis vsque nunc confirmata est By this orderly succession of Bishops the tradition of the Apostles hath come vnto vs and it is a most full demonstration that the faith which from the Apostles is confirmed euen vntill now is one and the same We may tell them with Tertullian Nos communicamus cum Ecclesijs Apostolicis quod nulla aduersa doctrina facit hoc est testimonium veritatis We do communicate with the Apostolick Churches which no contrary doctrine doth and this is a testimony of the truth A. W. That Apostolicknesse which is a marke of the true Church is as I shewed Chap. 15. an agreement and sucession in doctrine with and to the Apostles not as you would haue it a personall descent from them And therfore your reason against our Churches is naught Euery Apostolicke Church say you can deriue the pedegree of their preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles The Protestant Churches cannot so deriue their pedegree Therefore the Protestant Churches are not Apostolicke Your maior is euidently false because otherwise some church professing the true faith and not keeping record of the succession of their teachers might be held not to be Apostolicall But Tertullian affirmeth the contrary directly that those Churches which agree with the Apostles in faith though they can alledge no Apostle or Apostolicke man for their first founder yet are neuer the lesse to be counted Apostolicall because of their consent in doctrine And indeed it is both impious and absurd to denie any Church to be Apostolicall that holdeth that faith by the preaching whereof the Apostles planted Churches Your minor also is vntrue because it is wel known that if you haue any such succession amongst you we haue it too For Luther Caluin and some other of our Diuines were ordered by bishops of your church Concerning Luther what reasonable mā can be so absurd as to think that Luther wold make any mā beleeue that the Gospel was first preached by himself whereas he continually appeals for the proof of his doctrine to the writings of the Prophets and the Apostles But Luther might truly say that he was the first which had in those times published Christ especially in the chiefe point of the Gospell which is iustification by faith in Christ And in this respect it is an honor to Luther to haue bin a son without a father and a disciple without a master and no more glory to your Popish Bishops and Priests to haue had so long a succession in error and heresie then for the Arians to haue bene able to reckon vp
of the fifth to the end of the sixteenth containe the antecedent or first part of his reason and the proofes thereof The seuenteenth addeth and enforceth the maine conclusion The assumption of the second syllogisme That it is necessary to admit c. is handled from the fourth Chapter to the tenth The proposition of the first syllogisme That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith is proued by another reason from the ninth Chapter to the thirteenth The assumption of the third syllogisme That those onely which professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church is debated from the twelfth Chapter to the seuenteenth This is the generall frame of the whole Treatise as farre as I am able to conceiue of it Now let vs examine the truth therof Wherein that I may proceed the more orderly and plainely I wil first speake a word or 2. of some matters that seeme fit to be vnderstood ere I answer particularly to the seueral propositiōs What the diuerse significations of this word faith are and how many sorts of faith there be I will inquire as farre as it is needfull for this Treatise in my answer to the first Chapter onely we are now to know that by faith and beliefe this Papist vnderstands the matter or doctrine which is to be beleeued This appeares in the rest of this Preface and namely at these words Fourthly because these few plaine points c as also euery where in his Treatise though sometimes as I will shew in due place he take it otherwise The like I say of the word Church which being diuersly taken in Scripture is here to be restrained to a certaine cōpany of men vpon earth as this Author himself shewes in this Preface at the place aforenamed Now then to answer directly to his principall syllogisme I deny the whole antecedent therof Because it takes some things for a knowne truth which are either false or at least full of doubt As for example that the true Catholique Church is a company of men vpon earth whereas who knowes not that the saints that haue bene are and shal be in all ages are members of the true Catholique Church which consists of them all ioyntly That all the seuerall congregations which hold the true doctrine of the Gospell are one and the same Church A doctrine in his meaning without anie warrant of Scripture as it shall be shewed hereafter That there is authoritie in a certaine company of men vpō earth to require that whatsoeuer they deliuer be held for an vndoubted truth vnder paine of damnation to all that wil not so beleeue them whereas God vseth not the authoritie of men but their ministerie to the begetting of faith in them that shall be saued In particular I denie the proposition because all the Churches in the world may erre either in some one point not fundamentall or some in one some in another And therefore some things may be propounded by the true Church of Christ which notwithstanding are not vpon any authoritie of theirs to be held for true To the proofe of the proposition set downe in the second syllogisme I answer by denying the assumption That it is necessary to admit such authoritie in the Church The reasons of my deniall are 1 That God hath giuen no such authoritie to anie companie of men since the Apostles or besides them who had it seuerally euery one in his owne person 2. That there is no necessitie of anie such authoritie for the saluation of the elect or damnation of the reprobate 3. That the Scriptures are left vnto vs for an absolute rule whereby all things that are to be beleeued must be tried I denie also the assumption of the first principall syllogisme and to the proofe of it contained in the third syllogisme I say further that they which professe the doctrine that the Church of Rome now teacheth in many points are members of the Church of Antichrist vnder the Pope the head thereof But if as you say Those that professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church how ignorantly and absurdly do your Monkes of Bourdeaux write in their solemne profession of religion where they say that the holy visible catholique and Apostolike Church dispersed ouer the whole world hath communion in faith manners with the Church of Rome If the Catholique Church haue communion with the Church of Rome sure the Catholique Church and the Church of Rome are not all one A. D. §. 4. Vpon which points when he had heard my discourse he desired me for his better remembrance to set downe in writing what I had said The which I had first thought to haue done briefly and to haue imparted it onely to him but by some other friends it was wished that I should handle the matter more at large they intending as it seemed that it might not only do good to him but to others also that should haue need of it as well as he Of which sort of men standing in this need as I could not considering their miserable case but take great pitie so I was easily moued especially at my friends request to be willing to do my endeuour which might be for their reliefe and succour and to take any course which might turne to their helpe and profite A. W. The title of your booke professeth breuitie here you say that you had thought to set downe your discourse briefly but haue handled the matter more at large Either your Title or your Preface is to blame Your Title is iustified afterward where you say that your course of writing is very briefe and compendious Papists talke of pitie who without mercie or conscience wold haue murdred so many thousāds by treason as they thought haue sent them almost quicke to hell soules and bodies together It is not anie pitie of vs but your slauery to the Pope and proud conceit of I know not what merite with hope of making your part strong for rebellion or massacre that drawe from you these goodly treatises A. D. §. 5. Now of all other courses which haue bene and might be vndertaken that which in my speech I did chuse as most expedient for him with whom I did conferre seemed best also for me to prosequute in this my writing for the benefite of him and others and this for foure reasons A. W. I know not what he was with whom as you say you did conferre but I am sure his iudgement was at the most but indifferent good if such a course as begs the question would be any way liked of him You vndertake to shew That it is necessary to admit an infallible authority in the true Catholique Church which you expound to be A companie of men vpon earth VVhat Protestant is there of any knowledge but vnderstands that by Catholique Church we meane ordinarily not any companie in
this world but the whole societie of the faithful from time to time But these gay shewes of Catholike Church Vniuersalitie antiquitie vnitie succession and such like are fit to deceiue the ignorant for which purpose your discourses are written with whō they preuaile by the iust iudgement of God who sends them strong delusions that they may beleeue lyes because they haue not embraced the loue of the truth that they might be saued A. D. §. 6. First because it is very briefe and compendious and consequently such as euery one might haue leysure and should not be much weary to reade it A. W. You deale in your corrupt writings as leud men do in slanderous reports who speake anie thing at aduenture though neuer so vntrue or vnlikely It is hard but some men will either beleeue or make doubt of it at the least So all men reade your writings you care not Though they that are of knowledge and iudgement discerne your falshood yet it is twentie to one but some ignorant fellow will light on them that may be seduced And this practise you follow the rather because you are for the most part out of feare of being shamed by confutation for that you are vnknowne and know well inough that our answers to you are commonly and many times must be so large that one amongst manie can hardly find leisure to reade them Whereas if the authors of your treatises were knowne amongst vs and our answers applied shortly and plainely to the verie point of the argument that being disrobed of the idle ornaments you cloath it withall and laid naked to the view of true reason we should haue as few of your discourses as we haue now of your replies to our refutations of your treatises which are so few that in many yeares it is rare to haue anie second charge by you vnlesse it be in such a fight as requires no more but a brauado without coming to handie blowes A. D. §. 7. Secondly because it standing onely vpon few but most certaine conclusions and grounds is free from many cauils of the captious which more ample discourses are subiect vnto A. W. To speake truly and properly there is but one conclusion in your whole Treatise as I haue shewed out of this your Preface Against which we also oppose one as briefe and more certaine then yours Your conclusion is That the faith and beliefe which the authority of the Romane Church doth commend vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith Ours That the faith which the Scripture teacheth vs is the onely true faith If you speake of the seuerall cōclusions belonging to the proofe of the generall there are at the least as many as there are Chapters But if you meane the three grounds which you signifie before and repeate afterwards they are so farre from being certaine that there is neuer a one of them true as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 8. Thirdly because the matter handled in it is not very high nor hard but common easie and plaine and such as may be vnderstood of any who hauing but a reasonable wit or vnderstanding wil carefully read it as the importance of the matter requireth with iudgement deliberation and which is chiefe with prayer to God and a resolute good will to follow that which he shall find to be right A. W. The matter is as hard by your handling of it as sophistrie can well make it as high as the deepe foundation of religion Yet I denie not but it may be vnderstood by a man of such parts and paines as you require and adde farther that the like may be auowed of the true grounds of religion as they are contained in the Scripture to the reading and meditation whereof the Lord himself hath promised such a blessing as your treatises if they were neuer so true could not looke for Is not the fountaine better then the chanell A. D. §. 9. Fourthly because these fewe plaine points which are here set downe include all other and whosoeuer shall by the helpe of Gods grace and the force of these or other reasons yeeld assent to the points proued in this discourse must by consequence without further disputing or difficultie yeeld to all particular points which the aforesaid Church commendeth for points of faith and will be moued to settle himselfe in the stedfast beliefe of all For if he once admit that there is a Church or company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points and that this Church is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth and further that this Church which is thus taught and must teach vs is no other but that visible company which professeth the Romane faith then he shall not need to straine his wits in studying or to wast words in wrangling about particular points of controuersies or to vse any such troublesome and vncertaine meanes to find out the truth but may easily and most certainly be instructed in all by onely enquiring and finding out which all sorts of men may easily do what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in all particular points whereof they doubt A. W. If these few points be so conuenient because in thē all other are included why should not our doctrine of the Scripture be as conuenient by the same reason Let vs compare our assertions together The first of yours is That a man must admit that there is a company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points The first of ours That a man must beleeue that there is a written word of God wherein the holy Ghost hath certainely taught whatsoeuer is needfull to be knowne to saluation Your second is That this company of men is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth Our second That this written word of God is appointed by him to teach all men in all matters of faith what is true what false Your third That this company of men is no other but the visible company which professeth the Romane faith Our third That this written word is no other but the bookes of the old and new Testament The proofe of your positions and the exceptions you take against ours shal be handled if it please God in their due places in the meane time if any mā be troubled with those ordinarie doubts which you haue buzzed into the common peoples eares concerning the vncertainty and hardnesse of the Scriptures let me intreat him to stay himselfe a while vpon these considerations First that the bookes of the old and new Testament acknowledged by vs are also confessed by you to be the verie word of God in the penning whereof the penners were so directed by the holy Ghost that they could not erre Therefore whatsoeuer the meanes
Ambrose to enquire after the faith of the Church and that especially in which Church if Christ be a dweller it is doubtlesse to be made choise of But if the people be vnfaithful if an heretical teacher deforme the dwelling the communion of heretickes is to be auoided the congregation must be shunned And a little after If there be any Church that refuseth the faith and holds not the foundation of the Apostles preaching it is to be left lest it taint vs with some spot of vnbeliefe or vnfaithfulnesse Neither will it serue the turne that you referre vs to that which is generally holden by the Church for both the generall faith depends vpon the particular beliefe of the Church or Pope of Rome and is not to be taken for truth because it is generally receiued but because it agrees with the Romane faith as we learned before of your Monkes of Bourdeaux who make the Catholique Church to haue communion with the Church of Rome as the fountaine of truth and of greater authoritie in their iudgement then the Catholicke Church But let vs admit that you desire of beleeuing whatsoeuer is generally holden by the Church I am half afraid this conceit be it neuer so strong wil not procure the quietnes you promise vs. The causes of my feare are these two First I may doubt of such a point as is not yet determined by the Church for example I make question of the Popes authority aboue Councels or theirs aboue him How shall I most certainly be instructed in the truth of this question Enquire say you and find what is generally holden by the Church What if the Doctors of your Church cannot agree about this point That they cannot it appeares by your owne doubting where you make it questionable whether the Pope alone or the Pope with a general Councell be free from error And Bellarmine is faine to take a great deale of paines in answering the arguments of diuers Papists some of them equall to himselfe for learning iudgement and authoritie who make the Pope subiect to generall Councels But of this in due place Say it were generally agreed on Could I thereby be most certainly instructed what is truth in this point May not all saue the Pope be deceiued and perhaps he to without the aduice and assent of a general Councell at least if he haue not in his consistory vpon good deliberation resolued of the matter What shall it auaile me then to know that generally it is thought the Pope is aboue any Councell Supposing this point were generally held to be true though indeed as I said before it is denyed both by priuate men by 2. councels that of Basil the other of Constance which deposed two Popes Iohn the three and twentieth and Benedict the thirteenth And Bellarmine saith that to this day it remaines in question euen among the Catholikes Well put case all men thought as Bellarmine and all such Popish parasites would haue it what were I the nearer as long as there can be no certainty of truth in your opinion where nothing is iudicially determined by a Pope Coūcell The second resō of my doubt is that I know not how to find out either easily as you say euery man may or certainly though with some paines what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in al particular points wherof I doubt Shall I looke into the confessions of seuerall Churches Where are they to be found Shall I trauail into euery particular country to learne what they hold of this or that poynt What assurance can I get hereby but from some speciall men And it is a venture but they will not all agree in euery point What remaines Forsooth that which is all in all I must beleeue Watsō or Clarke or Blackwel the archpriest or if al these will not content me Gerrard Tesmond Hall or without all doubting Garnet the superior of the Iesuites who questionlesse is as void of error as the Pope himselfe Haue I not trow you a sound foundation to build my faith vpon when I haue the word of these equiuocating traitours Priests and Iesuits And yet this is the most I can haue in this case if I be a man vnlearned especially vnable to reade Is it possible any man should be so senslesse as to hazzard his euerlasting saluation vpon such an vncertainty to beleeue he knowes not what because a Priest or a Iesuit tels him that the Church generally doth so beleeue But what if it fall out as it may do that the Priests perswade him the Church holds one thing and the Iesuites affirme it maintaines the contrary how shall a poore soule either settle his iudgement or quiet his conscience Quid sequar aut quem Were it not a directer and certainer course to hold nothing for truth in religion but that which is proued to vs by plaine testimonies of Scripture or certaine consequence of reason drawne from principles euidently exprest or apparētly contained in the knowne word of God The difficulties of translation and interpretation shal be handled in their places which also as I shewed ere while accompany al your writings of priuate men Popes or Councels Now then if their be many particular points of cōtrouersies whereof I may doubt which are not resolued of by any iudgement of the Church nor agreed vpon by the learned of your owne side if I cannot certainly know what is generally held for truth by the Church but as I giue credit to the report of a Priest or Iesuit whom I know to be partiall in the matter because he is one of the Popes vassals subiect to erre because he is a priuate man likely enough to lye because he maintaines equiuocation what madnesse were it for me to forbeare searching and studying of the Scriptures where I am sure the truth of God is to be found and to lose my time and labour in seeking what the Church generally holds and that of those men who perhaps vnderstand not what is held but as they haue bene informed by others who may themselues haue mistaken the true meaning of the Church in that it holds A. D. §. 10. Of which points also If they be desirous they may haue sufficient authority and reason yeelded by the learned of the same Church though they should not so desire reason to be yeelded that without reason be giuen they would not beleeue at all or as grounding their faith vpon the reason giuen sith Christian beliefe ought onely to be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the mouth of the Church who ought to be beleeued in all matters without giuing any reason A. W. There is no sufficient authoritie for a man to ground his faith vpon but the truth of God reuealed Whatsoeuer is taught without that authoritie is as easily contēned as alleadged Therfore Iustine wils him that would be setled in
the truth to flie to the Scriptures And Tertullian reiects that which is brought if it be not in the Scriptures Origen saith Christ is no where to be sought but in the mountaines of the law and the Prophets Yea Ierome makes the Scriptures the bounds of the church beyond which she may not go Are you able to shew this authority in all particuler points of Controuersie whereof a man may doubt Are you not faine in many particulars to deny the sufficiency of the Scriptures and to run a madding after traditions What talke you then of shewing sufficient authority The bestauthority you can alleadge for many matters is the Popes will who cannot erre as you ridiculously imagine And this authoritie is all the reason you haue in diuers points except such stuffe as Durād brings in his Rationale diuinorum officiorum wherof many of your own men are ashamed I had thought your Friers vow of obedience to their superiours or at least the Iesuits special vow of blind fold obedience head bene the height of all perfection in this life but I perceiue now that there is a greater opinion of holinesse in these vowes then there is cause why For you tye the obedience of euery Christian in such sort to the authoritie of the Church and indeed of his particular pastor yea of euery Priest or Iesuite that comes licenced by Blackwell or some new Garnet that be must beleeue without enquiring any reasō whatsoeuer such a fellow shall deliuer to him for truth This is the obedience one of your Cardinals speakes of Obedience without reason saith Cusan is full and perfit obedience namely when a man yeelds obedience without requiring any reason as a beast horse or other obeies his maister So doth your Popish Clergie vse the people as men do their Asses make them beare and do what they list yea euen to the attempting of most horrible and incredible treasons against their Soueraigne and countrey I will not now dispute what agreement there is betwixt faith and reason nor whether of them is the former nor in what case a man may require reason onely that no man may conceiue amisse of our doctrine concerning our demanding of proofe for that we are enioyned to beleeue he is to vnderstand that we aske no farther proofe but to be perswaded that the point deliuered to vs is warranted by Scripture Let it be neuer so much in seeming contrary to reason if it be agreeable to Scripture we hold our selues bound in conscience to take it for truth though we be no way able to answer such reasons as we know are brought against it Neither yet do we rest satisfied as soone as some place of Scripture is alledged in a doubtfull matter but here indeed we hearken after reason Yet not to prooue that true which we find affirmed in Scripture but to make vs perceiue that such and such is the meaning of the Scripture Whatsoeuer the Scripture saith we acknowledge to be absolutely true so farre as it is deliuered for true by the holy Ghost But what the sense of the Scripture is we thinke it must be prooued by the true vse of reason according to the certain principles of diuinitie and such helps as obseruation of circūstances vnderstanding of the tongs conference of like places logical discourse with such other helps reasonably affoord vs. But why should you find fault with demanding reason or not be most willing ready to ioyne it to your authority since as Cusan saith faith is not abased by reason but exalted euen as water in a vessell supports and lifts vp oyle As for your proofe that therfore we may not demand a reason nor so much as enquire whether the points that are taught vs be sutable to the Scripture or no because Christian beliefe must onely be grounded vpon the authority of God speaking by the mouth of the Church we say that you auouch that which is not true For Christian faith must be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the pens of his Apostles and Prophets in the Scripture not vpon the authoritie of any company of men liuing from time to time in the world The Church you dreame of will I doubt not in another part of my answer be shewed to be nothing but a fancy and a gay word to deceiue the simple when as by it you meane no more but your clergie or perhaps your Bb. onely assembled in a Councell or the Pope himselfe alone who can with no more reason be called the Church then the head may be tearmed the body or the whole man if I should grant you that he is the head which is both false and absurd The Lord vseth not the authoritie of men to enioyne what they list for a matter of faith but their ministery to beget faith by declaring what he hath reuealed in the Scripture through euidence of truth and power of exhortation testified and made effectuall by the mightie grace of the holy Ghost in the hearts of them that shall be saued A. D. §. 11 The which briefe and compendious resolution of faith whosoeuer will as euery one may securely and as in the discourse following shall be declared must necessarily embrace beside the ease he shall also reape this commoditie that cutting off all occasions of needlesse and fruitlesse doubts questions and disputes concerning matters of faith wherin vnsettled minds spend their time and spirit he shall haue good leisure and better liking then ordinarily such vnquiet mindes can haue to employ his endeuours more fruitfully otherwayes to wit in building vpon the firme foundation of stedfast faith the gold and pretious stones of Gods loue and other vertues in practise whereof consisteth that good life which maketh a man become the liuing temple of almightie God the which temple Gods spirit will not onely visite with holy inspirations and blessings oftentimes in this life but he wil also inhabite and dwell continually in it both by grace here and by glory in the other most happy and euerlasting life A. W. The securitie that ariseth from resting vpon the authoritie of the Church is freenesse not from danger but frō care This latter I confesse will easily be wrought by this perswasion in the heart of a carelesse worldling or a man superstitiously ignorant if he can be senslesly obstinate inough in keeping his eyes and eares from seeing and hearing the truth of God in the Scripture for to such men God sends strong delusions to beleeue lyes that they may be damned which haue not receiued the loue of the truth that they might be saued But alas what shall this ease aduantage them but onely that they may go laughing to destruction as a foole doth to the stocks and whip What necessitie can there then be of embracing such a dāgerous resolution Besides the ease you tell vs now of another commodity that may be reapt by embracing that
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
of this matter we must speake more at large hereafter A. D. CHAP. III. That this one faith necessarie to saluation is infallible A. W. If you had bene desirous that euery man should vnderstand you instead of infallible you would rather haue said certaine or without doubting especially since your selfe diuers times vsed the word in the passiue signification for that which may not be doubted of as being most certainly true In this sense you say afterward in this Chapter that the word of Christ is absolutely infallible and againe in the end of the Chapter that we must account the word of faith absolutely infallible A. D. §. 1. This one faith without which we cannot be saued must be infallible and most certaine This is cleare because faith is that credit or inward assents of minde which we giue to that which God who is the prime or first veritie which neither can deceiue nor be deceiued hath reuealed vnto vs by meanes of the preaching or teaching of the true Church as we may gather out of S. Paul when he saith Quomodo credent ei quem non audierunt quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur c. ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi The sense of which words is that sith we cannot beleeue vnlesse we heare nor beare vnlesse some lawfully sent do preach vnto vs faith is bred in vs by hearing and yeelding assent or credit to the word of Christ made knowne vnto vs by the preaching of the true Church which onely is lawfully sent of God wherefore like as the word of Christ being God is absolutely infallible so also the credit giuen to this word which is our faith must needs be also most certaine and infallible A. W. The title and beginning of the Chapter speake of faith as it is a grace or qualitie but the conclusion of the Chapter is concerning the infallibilitie or certaintie of the word of faith as you call it that is the thing to be beleeued so do you run from one thing to another But I may say of this Chapter as I haue done in part of the former that we acknowledge the truth of both these points and thinke your labour in prouing them altogether vnnecessary only in the former there may be some doubt For though it be out of question that we are to endeuor for the perfection as of all other graces of God so of that faith wherby we assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed yet it comes to passe sometimes by our infirmitie that our faith is accompanied with doubting And this as we heard before Sotus grants to be true of a Catholicke faith and prooues it by the prayer of the Apostles Lord increase our faith to which I may adde the like request of him that crying with teares said Lord I beleeue helpe my vnbeleefe But if any man desire to see a liuely patterne of this doubting let him looke vpon Dauid as he describes himselfe in the Psalme Certainly I haue cleansed my heart in vaine and washed my hands in innocency c. Then thought I to know this but it was too painfull for me And afterward so foolish was I and ignorant I was a beast before thee And yet the point he speaks of is a rulde case in Diuinitie propounded by him in the beginning of the Psalme namely that the prouidence of God watcheth ouer the righteous for their good and that he will be auenged of the wicked That faith which some Diuines call historicall is indeed such an assent goeth alwaies before iustifying faith at the least for the beleeuing of so much as is necessarie to iustification Which I note by the way that no man may be deceiued with an opinion that iustifying faith is an assent to the truth of Gods word whereas it is quite of another nature and hath place in the will rather then in the vnderstanding If you had said that God hath reuealed his truth to vs by the preaching of them that were in the true Church you had spokē more plainely and truely But how the true Church or any Church at all should be said to preach I professe I vnderstand not Neither can any such thing be gathered out of Saint Paule who speakes not a word of the Church true or false And to say the truth what a strange kind of speech is it to say The Church is sent to preach when as onely the Ministers preach and not the Church vnlesse perhaps Iohn Baptist only for a time was the Church whē he preached alone before our Sauiour was baptised But this same Church is a goodly faire word and couers a great many foule errours with the very name of it The Apostles who were they that God employed at the first beginning of the Gospell both in preaching and writing were vndoubtedly of the true Church both in respect of their election to euerlasting life and of the truth of the doctrine they held It is also true that God ordinarily begetteth faith in the hearts of men by the ministers of the true Church But it is not true that such an assent as you speake of cannot be wrought in a man by the ministery of Schismaticks or Hereticks though they be perhaps in neither respect any members of the true Church Did not Arius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius and many other wretched hereticks assent in generall to the truth of God in Scriptures because they held it to be the very true word of God And might not men by their preaching be brought to the same faith For our parts we make no doubt but that in the middest of ignorance and superstition many came to this faith by the preaching of your Antichristian Priests and so do at this day yea we adde further that we doubt not many haue wee are sure they might and may attaine to the same faith what if I say to iustifying faith too without any preaching by the reading of the Scriptures For since it is partly the matter that must argue the Scripture to be the word of God partly the maiesty which any man may discerne in the manner of writing vnlesse it can be poooued out of the Scripture that the holy Ghost will not worke by these vpō the heart of him that readeth but only of him that heareth a man expound this word vnto him I see no sufficient reason why faith may not be had by reading where Gods ordinance of preaching is onely wanting and not wilfully neglected But you will say the Apostle tyeth faith to hearing First this is little aduantage for you Papists amongst whom til shame emulation draue you to it within these last fiftie or threescore yeares no man could ordinarily heare the word of God in any tongue that he vnderstood and so all your hearing was to no purpose Secondly if hearing be sufficient where there is nothing but reading without any
in a matter of such weight The conclusion is that howsoeuer it is indeed a sinne and so in it selfe damnable to misbeleeue or not beleeue all and euery thing which God hath reuealed yet a man may be in the state of grace and saluation though he misbeleeue or through ignorance obstinately not beleeue something so reuealed In a word Not right beleeuing is neuer able to depriue a man of saluation but when that we beleeue amisse is a maine point of saluation obstinately not beleeuing onely then shuts vp heauen against vs when either the points we will not beleeue are fundamentall or our refusing to beleeue is against our owne iudgement and conscience If you had no further reach in this Chapter we were of the same mind with you but in propounding the reason of your assertion you bewray a further matter then at the first a man would imagine A. D. §. 2. The reason of this is because euery point of doctrine yea euery word that almightie God hath reuealed and by his Church propounded vnto vs to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued as we may gather out of Saint Marke where when our Sauiour had giuen charge to his Disciples to preach the Gospell to euery creature the which charge he also gaue in Saint Mathew saying Docete omnes gentes c. docentes eos seruare omnia quaecunque mandaui vobis Teach all nations c. teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you he pronounceth indefinitely Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that shall not beleeue shall be condemned not excepting or distinguishing any one point of doctrine as needlesse to be beleeued or which a man might at his pleasure misbeleeue or doubt of without danger A. W. Your first reason lieth thus If euery point and word reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued then faith must be entire But euery word so reuealed and propounded must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued Therefore faith must be entire The conclusion of this Syllogisme is acknowledged by vs for a certaine truth Faith must be entire but the premisses seeme liable to iust exception For first the antecedent and the consequent of the proposition are all one and so the proofe and that which is proued differ not What is it to say euery word reuealed by God must be beleeued but to affirme that faith must be entire Indeed if the questiō were of faith as it is a quality then the consequent might be inferred vpon the antecedent but since we speake of the things to be beleeued both are one If euery such word must be beleeued then we must beleeue euery such word It is the same faith by which all and by which some is beleeued but as the obiect or things beleeued make a difference which reacheth not to the faith it selfe within the soule Secondly the Assumption though it be true yet doth it containe something that had need to be warily considered First you so couple the reuealing by God and the propounding of a thing to be beleeued by the church as if the latter were no lesse necessary then the former to make a matter of faith wheras al things that God hath reuealed ought to be beleeued whether the Church propoūd them for such or no. For the reason why they are to be beleeued is that they proceed from God who must needs be credited in whatsoeuer he shal say in respect both of his truth in speaking and his authoritie in commaunding obedience But you Papists make the authoritie of the Church the very foundation of our beleefe The Scripture you say is in it selfe the word of God and so worthy of all credit but to vs it is not so but by the authoritie of the Church vpon the credit whereof we take it for the word of God Yea farther you limit faith in particular points by the determination of the Church so that no man shall be bound to beleeue as a point of faith any doctrine neuer so certainly proued out of Scripture vnlesse the Church haue resolued of it that it is true and whatsoeuer is by the Church concluded for true must be acknowledged for such by faith though it be beside or against the Scripture which as Cardinall Cusan is not ashamed nor afraid to say is fitted for the time and diuersly vnderstood So that it may at one time be expounded one way according to the generall current order of the Church and the same order being changed the Scripture also is changed And why should it not if as another Papist saith the holy Scripture take strength and authoritie from the doctrine of the Church and Bishop of Rome The Apostles saith Pighius haue written certaine things not that their writings should be aboue our faith but that they should be vnder it But what should I stand to recite your blasphemies in this kind which are many and monstrous That which is not to day a point of faith shall be one to morrow if it please the Pope to propound it to be beleeued It is farther to be considered in your Assumption that although whatsoeuer God reuealeth is to be beleeued vpō paine of damnation yet a man may be saued without beleeuing euery thing so reuealed alwayes prouided that he do not against his conscience obstinately refuse to acknowledge any truth If our Sauiour haue said that he which beleeueth not all that his Apostles teach shall be condemned then euery word so reuealed and propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation But our Sauiour hath said so Therefore euery word so propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation This is a proofe of your Assumption wherein for the consequence of your proposition I would haue all men vnderstand that although you craftily imply therein a comparison of equalitie betwixt the charge of beleeuing the Apostles and all other Ministers allowed by you whom you call by the name of the Church to deceiue simple people with so glorious a title yet the truth of that proposition depends not thereupon but onely vpon the necessitie of beleeuing that which God hath reuealed It is a certaine truth that God is to be beleeued in all things he hath reuealed by whom soeuer he propound it in this respect the consequence of your proposition is true That if it were damnable not to beleeue the Apostles deliuering that which God had reuealed it is also damnable not to giue credit to Ministers now when they propound that to be beleeued which God hath reuealed because the reason of beleeuing is that God hath reuealed the things that are deliuered But yet here are two differences to be obserued first that it is lesse sinne to doubt of that which any man besides the Apostles deliuers though it be the word of God then to make question of the same matter vttered by the
Apostles because they spake immediatly by the direction of the spirit and therefore could not possibly erre in any point whereas all other men are subiect to error and their doctrine to examination ere it need be credited Secondly we must remember it doth not follow that if our Sauiour said whosoeuer beleeued not the Apostles should be damned then he that beleeues not the Ministers now in all they propound to be beleeued should be therefore liable to condemnatiō I haue stood the more vpon this proposition because the consequence being true may breed an error in the conceit of many if the reason of it be not truly vnderstood Your Assumption or minor is thus to be limited according to that which I before deliuered He that beleeues the Apostles spake immediatly by the inspiration of the spirit of God and yet doubts of the truth of some things they preached cannot without reforming this error be saued because he holds that the holy Ghost may inspire an vntruth No more can he that doth not beleeue they spake by such inspiration For of them our Sauiour hath absolutely said He that despiseth you despiseth me The second limitation is about the things themselues The ignorance of some points deliuered by the Apostles vtterly excludes a man out of heauen some other again may be vnknowne and a man notwithstanding that his ignorance be saued Therefore though our Sauiour except no point nor distinguish betwixt matters of doctrine yet the not beleeuing of some is no farther damnable then a man doth wilfully refuse to beleeue that which he confesseth to be truth in his heart or at the least in which he thinkes the Apostles were deceiued or which he despiseth as needlesse and so condemnes the wisedome of God in propounding it to be beleeued A. D. §. 3. And this not without reason for not to beleeue any one point whatsoeuer which God by reuealing it doth testifie to bee true and which by his Church he hath commaunded vs to beleeue must needs be damnable as being a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will But all points of faith are thus testified by God and commaunded to be beleeued otherwise they be not points of faith but of opinion or some other kinde of knowledge Therefore all points of faith must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued beleeued I say eyther expresly and actually as learned men may doe or implicite and virtually as vnlearned Catholicks commonly doe who beleeuing expresly those articles which euerie one is bound particularly to know doe not in the rest obstinately doubt or hold some errour against the Church but haue a minde prepared to submit themselues in all things to the authoritie of the Church which they are sure is taught and directed by the spirit of God and doe in generall hold for vndoubted truth whatsoeuer the Catholicke or vniuersall Church doth beleeue A. W. Now followeth the second proofe of your assumption in this manner Euerie notable iniurie to Gods veritie and disobedience to his will is damnable But misbeleeuing or absolutely not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will Therefore misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is damnable To let passe this craftie conueyance whereby you still shuffle in the Church whereas without it the matter is as true and the proposition as perfect I answer to your assumption that all misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing is not a notable iniurie to Gods truth nor a great disobedience to his will where it proceeds simply of ignorance and not of wilfulnesse except in such cases as I shewed in the end of the last section which I speake not to excuse any man as if he did not sinne in misbeleeuing or as if there were some sinne not deadly according to your erroneous conceit but onely to distinguish notable iniuries and great disobedience from some kinde of misbeleeuing The conclusion is thus to be conceiued That misbeleeuing is in it selfe damnable not that no man can be saued which misbeleeueth This distinction of beleeuing expresly and implicitly as you terme it confirmes part of that which I haue hitherto said for by your confession there are some points to the beleefe whereof a general faith will not serue the turne but a man must know the particulars and assent actually to the truth of them For example it is not enough for a man to beleeue in grosse that he must be saued by such meanes onely as God hath reuealed and the Church hath propounded to be beleeued but it is absolutely necessarie to saluation that he know what the Church holdeth in this case concerning redemption by our Sauiour Christ and in his heart acknowledge the truth thereof Againe there are many other points which so a man neglect not the meanes to know them may be vnknowne and beleeued onely in generall without danger of damnation by reason of such ignorance Now this generall beleefe is not as you falsely say to be folded vp in the faith of the Church but to be tied to the Scripture all things wherein I acknowledge to be most true and beleeue all points whatsoeuer as they are eyther expressed or contained in Scripture howsoeuer I be ignorant what is true touching perhaps very many particulars To the authoritie of the Church I willingly submit my selfe thus farre as that I hold it a sinfull presumption for me or any man eyther to compare my priuate opinion with the generall iudgement of other Christians especially Ministers or to condemne or suspect that of falshood which they deliuer vnlesse I haue apparent proofe for the one and great likelihood for the other In which cases I set not my owne conceit against the doctrine of the Church but preferre the truth of God before the opinions of men As for any infallible authoritie in the Church vpon supposall of such a certaine direction by the spirit of God I hold it neither for true nor probable as shall appeare hereafter In the meane while I desire the Reader to consider these few testimonies cōcerning the authority of men Other writers saith Austin I reade with this prouiso that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I will not thinke a matter true because they haue thought so but because they haue bene able to perswade me eyther by other Canonicall writers or by some likely reason In an other place We may not consent to Bishops though they be Catholicke if at any time they be deceiued so that they iudge contrarie to the Canonicall Scripture of God Of necessitie saith Origen must we call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit And this charge Basil layeth vpon vs that when we heare we examine
excused in your iudgement by ignorance concerning any positiue commaundement of God but out of doubt there are many points of truth reuealed by God onely as positiue not as such meanes to saluation that without the beleefe of them a man cannot be saued Adde hereunto that a Christian may be ignorant of many points held by the Church and that by negatiue ignorance because he could neuer come where he might heare that the Church beleeued such and such things It is therefore an vnreasonable thing to condemne all ignorance for heresie and a most vncharitable conceit to cast all into hell fire that beleeue not in euery point as the Church generally doth yea though they know what the Church mainteines be of a contrarie mind Your proofe which is a comparison of likenesse or equality betwixt infidelitie in denying all Christian religion and heresie in not beleeuing some points of it is a great deale too weake Similitudes argue indeed but rather by way of illustration then proofe And there is no equalitie betwixt denying all and doubting of some The former absolutely ouerthrowes true religion the latter onely misconceiues some points leauing the grounds of truth vntouched and beleeuing them as most certaine A. D. § 6. Fourthly I may confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers First of S. Athanasius in his creed which is commonly knowne and approoued of all Quicunque saith he vult saluus esse ante omnia opus est vt teneat Catholicam fidem quam nisi quisque integram inuiolatamque seruauerit absque dubio in aeternum peribit Whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is needfull that he hold the Catholicke faith which vnlesse euerie one doe keepe entire and vnviolate without doubt he shall perish euerlastingly A. W. If the ancient writers should affirme a thing so vnreasonable there were good reason for a man to looke for some proofe of it out of the Scriptures But no doubt we shall finde your citations of their writings as much to the purpose as we haue done your former arguments The first you alleadge is Athanasius in his Creed to which I answer that Athanasius speaks not of all points reuealed by God but of those substantiall matters which are there set downe by him and namely of the Trinitie of persons and Godhead of our Sauiour Iesus Christ This appeares by the last verse of the same Creed where he thus concludeth This is the Catholicke faith which except a man beleeue faithfully he cannot be saued But Athanâ—siuâ— hath not comprehended all points of religion in that Creed for he leaueth out the buriall of our Sauiour Christ vnlesse you will say he put his going downe into hell for it neither doth he require in that place any other point as necessary to be beleeued to saluation but those onely that he there reciteth which must be kept entire and vnuiolate of euery man that will be saued A. D. §. 7. Qui sunt in sacris literis eruditi saith Saint Basil ne vnam quidem sillabam diuinorum dogmatum prodi sinunt sed pro istius defensione si opus est nullum non mortis genus libenter amplectuntur Those that are well instructed in holy Writ doe not suffer one sillable of diuine doctrine to be betraied or yeelded vp but for the defence thereof if need be doe willingly embrace any kinde of death A. W. That of Basil is lesse to the purpose For first he saith nothing of any doctrine propounded by the Church or of your vnwritten traditioÌ„s but only of the Scriptures And how makes this for the beleeuing whatsoeuer the Church wil deliuer without which in your iudgement faith cannot be one or entire Secondly he speakes not of all ignorant men whose faith vpon paine of damnation you will haue entire concerning euery point but of those onely that are learned in the holy Scriptures or at the most so farre as they are learned in them I astly what saith he of these but that which we alwaies require that a christian should not suffer any sillable of true doctrine to be betraied This makes against you who rest wholly vpon Popes and Councils and by that meanes oftentimes betray the truth of God manifested in the Scripture yea so farre are you from mainteining euery sillable of it with hazard of your liues that you doe what you can for shame to destroy it all You Papists depriue the people of them altogether at least for their priuate reading howsoeuer your Pope Pius 4. makes a shew of permitting it You haue thrust out the Authenticall copies of Hebrew and Greeke and in steed of them authorised a corrupt Latine translation which no man may refuse vpon any pretence though it haue 8000 places as Isidorus Clarius a great learned man of your owne affirmeth in which the sense of the holy Ghost is changed yea Cardinal Hosius blusheth not to write That it were better for the Church if there were no written Gospell extant I omit your blasphemies against the Scriptures whereof I haue spoken otherwhere A. D. §. 8. Nihil periculosius saith Nazianzen his haereticis esse potest qui cum integrè per omnia decurrant vno tamen verbo quasi veneni gutta veram illam ac simplicem fidem dominicam inficiunt Nothing can be more perilous then these heretickes who when they runne vprightly through all the rest yet with one word as with a drop of poyson doe infect that true and sincere faith of our Lord. A. W. What if Gregorie Nazianzen complaine that heretickes which held most points soundly according to truth as Arius Eutyches Macedonius Nestorius and diuers other did were very pernitious to the Church because they did more easily and secretly poyson the truth of doctrine by their heresies Will it follow hereupon that therefore a man cannot be saued vnlesse he beleeue euerie point of truth reuealed by God or that a man hath no faith because his beleefe agrees not in euery small matter with other Christians Remember I pray you we denie not that faith should be entire but that it cannot be auaileable to saluation if in any one point it misbeleeue Thus haue I examined the first part of this your Treatise of Faith which I know not how I should apply to your maine syllogisme implied in your preface when you shew the vse of it in any part thereof I will giue you answer accordingly A. D. CHAP. V. That there must be some means prouided by almighty God by which all sorts of men may learne this faith which is so necessary to saluatioÌ„ A. W. The title of this Chapter is so propounded that your meaning may easily be mistaken There must be say you some meanes prouided May not a man gather by these words that as yet there are no such meanes prouided where as you would haue vs beleeue that God hath already made prouision of fit meanes to that
Peter as we heard Bellarmine say signifieth no more but that God keepes no man from being saued but hath vouchsafed the word and sacraments in common to all Your Glosse restraines that Any to them that are to be conuerted that is to the elect That other which are to be conuerted may be conuertea Thomas and Holkot interprete it de voluntate signi of that wil of God which we may gather by the signes he sheweth as for example God calleth all men from danger of damnation by precepts counsels threatnings rewards These are signes to vs that God would haue all men to be saued but there is another will called volunt as beneplaciti the good pleasure of God which is indeed truly that which God intendeth Thomas addeth also a second exposition out of Damascen but it can proue nothing because it cannot be necessarily enforced out of the text rather then the other which is also more warrantable for the truth of it as I will shew another time vpon more iust occasion if it please God Caietan alledgeth three seuerall interpretations that of Damascens a second of All kind of men whereof before and a third of the elect which also he doth exemplifie in the person of Peter Thus I haue shewed that the maine foundation you build vpon is but weak wanting ground of warrant from the word of God But admit it were neuer so true that God would haue euery man to be saued which in some sense as I haue said indeed is most true yet were not the consequence of your proposition proued For there might be sufficient meanes for euery mans saluation though there were no meanes to bring him to that same one infallible entire faith which you conceit but onely to so much faith and knowledge as is necessary to saluation by which he might be sufficiently instructed in matters of faith which is all that you craftily seeme to require in the conclusion of this section whereas before in your proposition no lesse would serue the turne then infallible instruction in all points questions and doubts of faith A. D. §. 2. To this purpose saith S. Austin Si Dei prouidentia praesidet rebus humanis non est desperandum ab eodem ipso Deo auctoritatem aliquam constitutam esse qua velut certo gradu nitentes attollamur in Deum If Gods prouidence saith he rule and gouerne humane matters as he proueth that it doth we may not despaire but that there is a certain authoritie appointed by the same God vpon which staying our selues as vpon a sure step we may be lifted vp to God Saint Austin therefore doth acknowledge some authoritie to be needfull as a meanes whereby we may be lifted vp to God The which lifting vp to God is first begun by true faith And because this authoritie is so needfull a meanes he would not haue vs doubt but that God whose prouidence stretcheth it selfe to all humane matters hath not failed to prouide this meanes for vs it being a principal matter and so principall as vpon which according to the ordinary course dependeth the summe of our saluation We are not therefore I say to doubt but that Almghtie God hath prouided a meanes whereby Animalis homo qui non percipit ea que sunt spiritus Dei a sensuall man who hath no vnderstanding of the diuine mysteries of faith may come to know them by a firme and infallible beleefe A. W. To what purpose doth Saint Austine bring this To proue that God hath appointed a rule by which all men may come to your infallible faith Nothing lesse but to shew that where truth is not euident as to men ordinarily it is not there God hath prouided meanes to stirre them vp to a diligent enquiry after it or rather as he plainly affirmeth to a ridding of themselues of the cares and pleasures of this life which he cals purging of the soule that so they may be fit to embrace the truth Authoritie saith Austin is at hand for a man that is not able to discerne the truth that he may be fitted to it and suffer himselfe to be purged What is this authoritie what is the vse of it Miracles multitude make vp this authoritie whereby men not able to see truth in it self are moued to a reuerend respect of the Church so to an examination of the doctrine which vpon triall is found true Thus doth the wisedome of God prouide for mens ignorance that authoritie of miracles and multitude may draw them to a consideration of the truth which whensoeuer it shewes it selfe so plainly that it cannot be doubted of is to be preferred before all other meanes of perswading a man to beleeue or holding him in beleefe whatsoeuer as the same Austin saith we denie not these to be good helpes and strong meanes to the searching and finding of the truth but to be sufficient and infallible grounds of religion that a man should relie vpon them without trying the doctrine by the truth of God reuealed in the Scriptures It is indeed out of doubt among Christians that God hath prouided some meanes by which a naturall man whom you absurdly call sensuall whereas the Apostle meaneth a man in his best natural estate since his fal who cānot discerne of Gods truth nor admit of it may come to the knowledge thereof Because it was impossible saith Irenaeus to learne God without God he teacheth men by his word his sonne to know God It is he that hath vouchsafed vs this knowledge by the ministery of men worke of the spirit in their hearts that beleeue according to the word of God in the Scriptures Let vs not heare saith Austin This I say This thou sayest but let vs heare This saith the Lord there are the Lords bookes extant to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs obey there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our question Other meanes of triall then by the Scripture he accounteth and calleth deceitfull The Scriptures are the bounds of the Church beyond which she may not wander Whatsoeuer any man since the Apostles hath seene without warrant of Scripture let him be neuer so holy neuer so eloquent it is of no authoritie but onely to mooue vs to a consideration of that he saith A. D. §. 3. Onely the question is what manner of thing this meanes must be and where euerie man must seeke and finde it that hauing found it he may as S. Austen speaketh stay himselfe vpon it as vpon a sure step thereby to be lifted vp to a true faith and by faith to God The which question being of so great consequence that it being well determined a man need neuer make more question in matters of faith I wil God willing in the chapters following endeuor to resolue it as clearely as I can And this I purpose to do first by
not Is this companie of Clergie men onely or of Lay men also If of them then belike these are none of the Church But let vs grant that which as it shal appeare in due place is neither true nor probable that the Clergie onely is the church howsoeuer they may be so representatiuely What assurance can any man haue who liueth not in the time of this assembly I might say in the place too where it is that there was any such assembly that the greatest part agreed to the approouing of such a translation that this is the translation they agreed to Especially seeing two Popes since the last Conuenticle of Trent haue set out your authentical translation diuersly Whether of these two was agreed on How shall I be infallibly assured that these Popes altered nothing in the translation allowed by the Councel Shall I say more What if this Councell vsed not the meanes of examining this translation by the originals What if most of them as it is most certaine had no skil in the originals and so did but leape after some few like sheepe not vnderstanding what they did yet the shoot Anchor holds the Pope allowed of their iudgement What if his skil were but indifferent He could not erre you will say What was the reason why he allowed that translation because the Councel examined and approued it But without him al they might erre especially if they did not vse all good meanes to find out the truth VVho assured him they did Shall we haue the holy Ghost like Mahomets doue to come and certifie the Pope of this doubt This is a matter of fact and in things of such nature the Pope may erre euen iudicially Well I will deale bountifully with you Put case all this be true How shal I attaine to infallible assurance hereof Forsooth some Priest or Frier Iesuite or other telleth me that things so passed and therefore I am bound to beleeue it Then my faith resteth not vpon the authority of the Church but vpō the credit of him that saith he is sent by the Church to make such report Thus it cometh to passe that the beleefe of vnlearned Papists is nothing else but a perswasion they haue that such a priest knoweth what is true and will not deceiue them with any false informations Tell me not of other Priests and Iesuits consenting with him that was thy spirituall father for all these together if there were ten times as many of them are not the Church in which onely this infallible authoritie is to be found And so there can be no such assurance in any vnlearned Papist of the truth of your vulgar or any other translation I confesse it is against both Charitie and Ciuilitie to suspect a man of vntruth without iust cause of suspition but such fruites grow vpon such rootes of Poperie that a man must needs be either vnciuill in giuing credit to nothing though vpon neuer so good reason or else ridiculously credulous in beleeuing euery thing that shal be told him though neuer so much against reason But the spirit of God teacheth and perswadeth men to beleeue the Church Are you they that mocke at priuate spirits and yet are glad to flie to that helpe Is it not as likely the spirit should teach men which is the Scripture as which is the Church And assure them of a translation as of this or that mans ordination and priesthood If such proofes as I haue spoken of before will serue wee are nothing inferiour to you but as well for weight as number superiour If you say the Scriptures enioyne vs to beleeue the church How shall I be assured that they are not in those places that seeme to enioyne such a beleefe falsly translated Because the Church saith they are true in all points What if the Church be deceiued It cannot be Who saith so The Scripture Who tels you the Scripture saith so The Church What is to be ridiculous if this be not It might seeme exceeding strange that euer any reasonable man should be ledde away with such fopperies if the holy Ghost had not foretold vs of it that God would send men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned vvhich beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse These delusions poore ignorant Papists trust to and to none more then to those which are the maynest of all the authoritie of the Church and impossibilitie of the Popes erring to which whosoeuer firmely cleaueth can neuer be good Christian or faithfull subiect in any Church or state whatsoeuer A. D. §. 2. Secondly they faile in the second condition or propertie which the rule of faith should haue For the Scriptures themselues alone in what language soeuer be obscure and hard to be vnderstood at least to vnlearned men who cannot reade them and therefore the Scriptures alone cannot be vnto vnlearned men a sufficient rule to instruct them in all points of faith as is plaine For locke vp an vnlettered man and an English Bible for a time in a studie and hee will come forth I warrant you as ignorant in matters of faith as he went in if wee adde no other meanes to instruct him but the bare written word which hee cannot reade And yet vnlearned men may be saued and saued they cannot be without an entire and vnfallible faith and this they cannot haue vnlesse there be some certaine rule and vnfallible meanes prouided by Almightie God meet for their capacitie to teach them this faith and Scripture alone as is now proued is not a rule meete for the capacitie of vnlearned men or apt to instruct them sufficiently in all points of faith But what speake I onely of vnlearned men sith also learned men cannot by onely reading the Scriptures be vnfallibly sure that they doe rightly vnderstand them For while they vnderstand one way perhaps they ought to vnderstand another way that which they vnderstand plainly and literally ought perhaps to be vnderstood figuratiuely and mystically and contrarie that which they vnderstand figuratiuely ought perhaps to be vnderstood properly And seeing that it is most certaine that all doe not expound right sith the exposition of one is contrarie to the exposition of another as right is neuer contrarie to right how should one be vnfallibly sure that hee onely expoundeth right hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason which is as vncertaine and fallible as the iudgements and perswasions of other men who seeme to themselues to haue attained as wel as he the right interpretation or sense Moreouer there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of Scripture which are found but in very few and those also in whom those gifts are are not vnfallibly sure that they are so guided by those gifts but that both they and others may prudently doubt lest sometimes in their priuate expositions as men they erre And consequently their priuate
the scripture For how many points of doctrine are there not yet decreed of by your Church How many thousand places of scripture not yet expounded by it If then it be no hindrance to saluation for a man to be ignorant of the truth in many points and places of scripture may not the written word of God be the rule of faith though diuers things in it be not certainly vnderstood A. D. §. 3. Thirdly they faile in the third condition For the Scriptures are not so vniuersall as the rule of faith had need to be For this rule ought to be so vniuersall that it may be able absolutely to resolue and determine all doubts and questions of faith which eyther haue bene or may hereafter be in controuersie for otherwise there were not sufficient meanes prouided by which schisme and heresies might be auoided vnitie of faith so necessarie to saluation might be conserued among Christian men A. W. The last imperfection you note in the Scripture whereby you would make it insufficient to be the rule of faith is the scantnesse of it that it conteineth not all things necessarie to be beleeued which you go about to prooue thus The rule of faith must be able absolutely to resolue all doubts of faith that haue bene or may be The Scripture is not able absolutely to resolue all such doubts Therefore the Scripture is not the rule of faith I should haue let your proposition passe without any question but that I am so vsed to your craft in speaking doubtfully For feare whereof I would faine vnderstand what the reason is why you put in absolutely If your intent be to signifie that the resolution must be certainly true you might haue spoken plainly as you meant But it may be you vnderstand by resoluing absolutely such a kinde of resolution as shall take away all outward contention which sometimes is indeed brought to passe by the Decrees of your Popes no man daring for feare of his life once to open his mouth against them Such a resolution the scripture cannot giue neither is it to be looked for that the rule of faith should be of that nature It is enough that it shew plainly and certainly what is true in all matters of faith Secondly the controuersies of faith you speake of must be indeed matters that require beleefe otherwise the rule of faith is not to meddle with them To speake more plaine It is not to be held as a duetie of the rule of faith that it should be able to determine of euerie idle question that curious and contentious heads can deuise For example if any man will make question of the Virgin Marie whether she were as you teach fifteene yeare old or perhaps eighteene or nineteen when our Sauiour Christ her Sonne was borne whether she were threescore three whē she died or more or lesse In these a thousād such matters deliuered as points of faith by your Priests and Iesuits it is not to be expected that the rule of faith should affoord any resolution We grant that infinite questions of your schoolemen positiōs of your Diuines cannot be determined by the rule of faith but only thus that they may be cōuinced to be no matters of beleefe that a Christian must needs think thus or thus of thē because they cannot be prooued either one way or other by scripture your proposition therefore is true onely of those things that are needfull to be beleeued all which may be certainly resolued by it What cannot is not of necessitie to be held by faith Your proposition you prooue as you thinke by this reason If there be no sufficient meanes prouided by which schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitie among Christians conserued vnlesse the rule of faith be able to resolue all such doubts then it must be able to resolue them But there is no sufficient meanes prouided whereby schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitic conserued vnlesse the rule be able to resolue all such doubts Therefore the rule of faith must be able to resolue them If the proposition be taken in that sense which the former may seeme to haue as I shewed then I denie the consequence therof that is I say it doth not follow that if there be no sufficiēt means prouided whereby schismes and heresies shall de facto and in euēt be auoided vnlesse the rule of faith be able to shew what is true what false in all questions that any man will mooue then the rule must be able so to doe The reason of my deniall is that as before I answered it is sufficient for the rule to shew what is true in matters of faith and let vs know that those are not needfull to be beleeued of the truth whereof it saith nothing anie way The assumption also is false though you speak not of actuall auoiding of heresie and schisme For there is sufficient meanes prouided for the auoiding of schisme because nothing must be held for certain truth which cannot be prooued to be according to the rule which is the onely measure of true vnitie among Christians A. D. §. 4. But the Scriptures be not thus vniuersall For there be diuers questions or doubts moued now a dayes and those also touching very substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely Scripture For where haue we any expresse Scripture to proue that all those and onely those bookes which Catholickes or Protestants hold for Scripture are indeed Gods word and true Scripure This we shall not find expresly set downe in a part of Scripture This point therefore whereupon dependeth the certaintie of euery point proued out of Scripture cannot be made certaine to our knowledge or beliefe vnlesse we admit some other infallible rule or authoritie wherupon we may ground an vnfallible beleefe which infallible rule if we admit to assure vs that there is at all any Scripture and that those bookes and no other be Canonicall Scripture why should we not admit the same to assure vs vnfallibly which is the true sense and meaning of the same Scripture Hereupon S. Austin saith very well Cur non apud eos diligentissimè requiram quid Christus praeceperit quorum auctoritate commotus Christum aliquid praecepisse iam credidi Tune mihi meliùs expositurus es quid ille dixerit c. Why shold I not most diligently ask or learne of those he meaneth of the Catholicke Church what Christ hath commanded by whose authoritie I was moued to beleeue that Christ commanded any thing at all What wilt thou expound vnto me better what he hath said that is to say the meaning of his words Quae saith he ista tanta dementia est illis crede Christo esse credendum à nobis disce quid ille dixerit multo facilius mihi persuaderem Christo non esse credendum quà m de illo quidquam nisi ab ijs per quos
therein What art what writing of any man is so bare Are the Scriptures onely that come immediatly from the author of true reason to be barred of that priuiledge which all other writings iustly challenge Is not a necessary consequence according to the rules of logicke and reason to be allowed of in Diuinitie as well as in the Mathematicks where consectaries are as certainly true as the theoremes out of which they are drawne Is it not as certaine by Scripture that there are three persons distinct each from other and all three but one God as if these verie words had bin expresly set downe But we must beare with you in this matter who learned this shift of your great Cardinal Bellarmine We say quoth Bellarmine where he deliuereth the opinion of your Church that the whole doctrine of faith and manners is not expresly contained in the Scriptures Expresly contained To be expressed and to be contained are at the least diuers if not contrary But I pray you who saith otherwise Not the Protestants doubtlesse whose opinion he propoundeth presently after this sort They preach saith Bellarmine speaking of vs that all things necessary to faith and manners are contained in the Scriptures What is become now of expresly For pure shame he was glad to leaue out that word though he had craftily stolen it in before Well this may serue to make good my deniall of your proposition A thing may be determinable by Scripture though the determination be not expresly set downe therein Take not aduantage of my words because I say determinable and you determined For the question is not what is determined that is set downe in plaine words but it is sufficient if the Scripture affoord vs the determination of matters by certain consequēce vpon truth therein deliuered Therefore whereas you adde by onely expresse Scripture onely and expresse are but meere shifts nothing at all against that we affirme who require besides onely expresse words of Scripture the ministery and industry of man to gather and conclude points of doctrine out of that which is written in the Scripture Your assumption is true that there are diuers questions not determinable by expresse Scripture and yet as I haue shewed the Scripture is sufficient for the determining of all points of faith necessary to saluation Concerning the particular question you bring for the proofe of your assumption First you seeme to grant and that grant is as much as we require that it may be gathered out of the Scripture by consequence that those books which we and you acknowledge to be the word of God are so indeed otherwise why say you that we shall not find it expresly set downe in a part of Scripture Secondly I demaund as before who moueth this question Not the Protestants who account it a kind of blasphemie to denie it and of infidelitie to doubt of it Your holy Church of Rome is she that hath buzzed this matter into Christian mens eares so that religion is thereby become a scorne to Atheists while you make no conscience of discrediting the word of God so you may by any meanes increase the reputation of your Apostaticall sea The truth is that this opinion is not a matter now a dayes first set abroach for Atheists such as Iulian haue from time to time obiected it therefore might you haue spared to mention it as a question now a dayes moued But it is new and strange yea almost incredible that Christians and those Diuines yea such as thinke religion resteth on their shoulders as the Poets faine heauen doth vpon Atlas should make a question whether the Scriptures be the word of God or no and so giue men occasion to doubt thereof Thirdly if this matter cannot be resolued of by the Scripture we shall be little the nearer for the infallible authoritie you haue deuised Christians need it not who are already perswaded that the bookes of the old and new Testament are the vndoubted word of God and with Christians onely to speake truly and properly hath the Church to do ordinarily But it falleth out sometimes that amongst those which make profession of Christianitie there are some found who are in doubt of this point If this doubt arise in the heart of a man that maketh conscience of religion he is to be taught that it is but a tentation of Satan and therefore not to be hearkened to Further we must demaund the reasons of his doubting shewing him how absurd and vnreasonable a matter it is to make question of that which generally both Protestants and Papists hold and which hath bene held by the space of 1500. yeares vnlesse he be able to giue very sufficient cause why he may doubt His arguments if he bring any must be answered and the Scriptures auowed by the matter and manner of writing which is such as will certainly if not conuert yet conuince any man in the world that man is not the deuiser of those bookes If he be an Atheist that derideth religion and withall so vnreasonable that the former and many other important proofes will not perswade him what remaines but that the magistrate whom God hath appointed to see true religion established cut off so corrupt a member by lawfull authoritie Where this course is not taken what meanes haue you to helpe the matter Will you tell him of an infallible authoritie in the Church He will laugh at your folly who instead of prouing beg the question I doe not beleeue saith he there is any such Church or authoritie If I doubt of the Scripture you proue it by the Church if I beleeue there is not any such Church or authoritie in the Church you will perswade me by Scripture To say the truth who can be so patient or foolish rather as to suffer himselfe to be led vp downe in a ring as it were a doore turning vpon hinges still in the same place The authoritie of the Church is an argument of such waight as that he is not to be counted either a Christiā or a man of reason that is not much moued therewithall yea so much as that he will not dissent from the continuall iudgement of it vnlesse he be driuen to it by certaine reason but yet this authoritie is not infallible Christ euermore iudgeth truly saith Austin but the Ecclesiasticall iudges as being men are very often deceiued And therefore he saith in another place that he is not bound to giue his consent without libertie to refuse to any thing but the Canonicall Scriptures And in an Epistle to Ierome I haue learned saith he to giue this reuerence and honour onely to those bookes that are called Canonicall that I constantly beleeue that no writer of any of them hath erred But to make an end of this needlesse question where both sides are agreed let vs heare Saint Austin speake to the Manichees If you aske vs saith he how we know that these
and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
their exceeding great harme And at least how soeuer their priuate affection selfe-loue encline them to think well of themselues and of that spirit which they permit to teach them those singuler points of new strange doctrine yet sure it is that this their perswasion of the goodnesse of their spirit is not infallible as the rule of faith must be sith diuers now adaies perswade themselues in the same manner to be taught by the holy spirit and yet one of them teaching against another it is not possible that all that thus perswade themselues should be taught by this spirit sith this spirit doth neuer teach contrarie to it selfe And therefore some in this their perswasion must needs be deceiued And therefore who hauing no testimonie of euident miracle or some other vndoubted proofe dare arrogantly affirme that he onely is not deceiued especially in such sort as to condemne all other and to propose himselfe to himselfe and others as the onely sufficient rule of faith considering that others who presume perswade themselues altogether in like manner are in this their perswasion deceiued A. W. I must againe put the Reader in minde that no Protestant maintaines that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith neither will I vndertake the defence of any such matter but onely examine his reasons against it as I haue done in the former chapters in the like case His reason is thus to be concluded The rule of faith must be infallible plaine knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall A priuate spirit is not such Therefore a priuate spirit is not the rule of faith Of the proposition I spake at the sixth chapter and shewed the fault of it in respect of the second propertie which is easinesse to be vnderstood of all men as it is expounded by your selfe All the doubt now is in the assumption of the three points wherin you go about to prooue but only the first of infallibility It should seeme your stomacke is greater against the scripture then against either natural wit learning or priuate spirit For you disprooue the abilitie of these two but in respect of one property namely the first as if for the other two they or either of them were sufficient enough But you allow the Scripture neuer a one of the three you condemne it of obscuritie you accuse it of defect for wanting diuers points necessarie to saluation And although you do not simply denie the infallibilitie of it yet you make all knowledge that can be had out of our English translation verie vncertaine so that none of our people can haue any benefite by the scripture as by the rule of faith or word of God but onely some few that vnderstand Hebrew or Greeke But I perceiue you were more afraid that the scripture would be taken for the rule of faith then you were that either of the other would Let vs see how you proue your assumption since you wil needs put your selfe to more paines then was looked for He say you that cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is taught by the holy Ghost cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit cannot assure himselfe and other men that he is so taught Therefore a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith There is some cause to doubt of your maior For it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should know it selfe to be the rule The Pope you thinke is the rule of faith Put case that some Pope should doubt whether himselfe were infallibly directed in all his determinations by the holy Ghost or no should he by reason of this doubting cease to be the rule of faith I dare say you thinke not so Neuer vrge me with the impossibilitie of this matter For both it is possible if he that is no Christian may be Pope of Rome If Iohn the 22 doubted of the immortalitie of the soule if Leo 10. counted the history of our Sauiour Christ a fable and it is all one to my answer whether it may be or no it is enough for me if the Pope may be the rule though he should so doubt You should haue done well if you had kept your former warie course of adding some exception to your assumption It had not bene altogether without need For out of question a priuate spirit may be so assured by reuelation as the Prophets and Apostles were And by such meanes a man may come to assurance for all the subtiltie of Sathan the Lord being able to make the motions of his spirit knowen to whom he please what shift soeuer Sathan vse to the contrarie The Minor therefore without this exception be either expressed or vnderstood is vntrue otherwise it is true As for the triall you propound by the touchstone of the true pastors of the Catholicke Church it is vtterly insufficient in this case It may be and is indeed a meanes of great authoritie and vse to direct a man in finding out and holding the truth but it is no certaine proofe that a man hath found or doth hold the truth in all points because those pastors as in due place shall appeare may all be deceiued without the Popes especiall direction But admit their iudgement or authoritie were in the matter infallible yet could no man thereby be assured that himselfe is taught particularly by the holy Ghost For many men hold the truth of God as the true Church doth and yet haue no such teaching by the spirit since it is certaine a man may deliuer truth and he himselfe not beleeue Of your testimonies out of scripture touching the Pastors of the Church I will say onely thus much by the way that the Pastors can speake neither of those sentences truely of themselues but in a measure They know the deuises of Sathan but in part not wholy He that knoweth God heareth them not simply in all points for he that knoweth God may doubt of some point deliuered by the true Pastors of the Church who also are no farther to be heard then they can shew that they speake to be from God The Apostles euerie one of them seuerally knew all things which the Lord thought fit to make knowen to men and were to be heard without any doubting of that they deliuered with them that priuiledge died and all men now are tied to the triall of their doctrine by the scriptures The conclusion of this discourse concerneth either no man in the world or if any the Pope of Rome your Lord God For the Anabaptists themselues are not so absurd and shamelesse as to make any one of their sect the onely sufficient rule of all mens faith but euerie man claimeth though falsly and lewdly a priuiledge of not erring for himselfe Onely your insolent Pope will haue all men to depend vpon his iudgement and in comparison of himselfe disdaineth all writers and all Councils whatsoeuer What promises he hath
whereupon he beareth himselfe so high and stout I make no doubt but we shal heare of you in this Treatise till when I forbeare to say anie more A. D. §. 4. But suppose one could assure himselfe that he were taught by Gods Spirit immediately what is the true faith in all points in such sort that he could erre in none as it is not the manner of Almightie God to teach men immediately by himselfe alone or by an Angell but rather as the Scripture telleth vs Fides ex auditu Faith is bred in vs by hearing and is to be required ex ore Sacerdotis out of the mouth of the Priest and is to be learned of Pastors and Doctors whom God hath appointed in his Church of purpose to instruct vs and continue vs in the ancient faith But suppose I say that one could assuredly perswade himselfe to be immediatly taught of God what is the truth in all points how should he without testimonie of miracle giue assurance to others that he is thus taught Especially when he teacheth quite contrarie to the Catholicke Church which by plaine promises and testimonies of Scripture we know to be taught of God A. W Hitherto you haue prooued that a man cannot assure himselfe that he is infallibly instructed by the holy Ghost Now you are to shew that howsoeuer the point might be cleere to him yet he hath no meanes to perswade other men thereof but that still there will be cause of doubting whether he be so taught or no. But by the way you tell vs that it is not Gods manner to teach vs immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angel but rather as the scripture telleth vs faith is bred in vs by hearing For the generall that God teacheth not immediately we are wholy of your opinion and that the ordinarie meanes of faith is preaching but we see no sufficient reason to disable the word of God in the scripture as if it were not of force to bring forth the same effect where Gods ordinance of preaching cannot be had or is not neglected For since the matter deliuered in true preaching and reading the scripture is all one vnlesse it be verie apparent that the holy Ghost wil not giue a blessing to him that readeth hauing not opportunitie to heare out of question faith may come by reading Faith saith Bellarmine cannot arise in the heart but by diuine reuelation which is either immediately from God alone or by the instrument of the word preached or read And whereas the Apostle speaketh in that place of preaching and hearing it is not his purpose to disable the word read but to shew partly as otherwhere that the meanes of saluation were not nor could be deuised by man but proceed wholy from God partly that no man may excuse himselfe by ignorance because God hath sent his seruants into all parts of the world to giue notice of the way of saluation without which commaundement of his no man might haue vndertaken the office of preaching the Gospell either by word of mouth or writing and without the Gospell had bene published no man could haue beleeued For as it is in the same chapter a little before How shall they beleeue in him of whom they haue not heard and how shall they heare without a preacher And how shall they preach except they be sent Faith then is by hearing that is as one rightly expoundeth it by the sense of the scripture truly vnderstood I do not equall reading to preaching nor promise any blessing but rather threaten a curse where men refuse to heare the Pastors and Ministers of the seuerall congregations wherein they liue or any other that by lawfull authoritie preach truly and faithfully but I would haue no man by any conceit weaken the power of God speaking in his word to all that can and will reade and heare Now to your argument He that hath not testimonie of miracles cannot giue assurance to others that he is infallibly taught by the Spirit of God But a priuate spirit hath not testimonie of miracles Therefore he cannot giue assurance to others that he is infallibly so taught First I note two things in the propounding of this reason the one that you adde an exception according to your custome the other that you seeme to giue ouer great force to miracles Your exception is that he can giue no assurance if he teach contrarie to the Catholicke Church why so Because we know that she is taught of God Suppose that to be true yet may he giue assurance to them that know no such thing of the Church and so be to them the rule of faith But it is worth the marking that you preferre miracles before the authoritie of the Church For by them a man in your opinion may haue assurance to others that he is taught by the holy Ghost though he teach quite contrarie to the Catholicke Church But the Apostle hath accursed them that receiue any other doctrine then he taught though it be preached by an Angell from heauen What will become of the faith of such men when Antichrist comes with signes and lying wonders But why should I aske that question Your selfe and the rest of your popish brood haue answered it alreadie For you are made drunke with the cup of fornication of the whore of Babylon and bewitched with the miracles of that great Antichrist the Pope of Rome to beleeue lies against the manifest truth of God in scripture But we haue a most sure word of the Prophets confirmed expounded by the Apostles contrarie to which or without warrant of which we will beleeue nothing as necessarie to saluation for all the miracles that your Antichrist or the Diuel himselfe can worke For mine owne part vnder correction I speake it I am not perswaded that euer any true miracle was or shall be wrought for confirmation of false doctrine how soeuer the Diuel may serue his turne by a shew of such matters But it is all one to the moouing of a man whether the thing done be in truth a miracle or onely such in his opinion Be it neuer so true it may bring no credit to any point of doctrine contrarie to the word of God in the scripture Yet since false shewes will worke the same effect in their hearts whom God hath giuen ouer to the beleeuing of lies that true miracles will me thinkes I see no sufficient cause to imagine that God will employ his infinite power to the countenācing of any vntruth where no such thing is needfull I say then for your proposition that no assurance can be giuen either without or with neuer so many miracles if a mans doctrine be contrarie to the teaching of the Church when the Church teacheth according to the Scripture But in those points wherein the Church shall faile of her dutie the exposition of the word may giue assurance of truth spoken by
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
Spirit is vnfallible we are not to doubt but that this companie is in all points infallibly taught the truth If also the same our Sauiour gaue warrant and commandement that they should teach vs and that we should heare them and do in all things according to their saying we may not likewise doubt but that they shall be able to teach all sorts of men in all points the infallible truth and that all sorts of men may if they will learne of that companie what in all points is the infallible truth For otherwise by this generall commaundement of hearing them and doing according to their saying we should be bound somtime to heare and beleeue an vntruth and to doe that which were not vpright and good which without blasphemie to Christ his veritie and goodnesse can no way be thought A. W. 1 If our Sauiour Christ say you hath promised to any companie his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature 3 If he haue giuen warrant to all that they may safely heare them 4 If he haue giuen commaundement to all to doe in all things according to their saying 5 If he haue threatned them who will not heare and beleeue them 6 If the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not wanting then the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow But our Sauiour Christ hath so 1. promised 2. charged 3. warranted 4. commaunded 5. threatned and 6. the other conditions required are not wanting Therefore the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow I haue propounded this Syllogisme as your selfe haue set it downe saue onely that I haue endeuored to make it somewhat shorter keeping your sense whole and full Now for the proposition I grant the consequence vpon all those conditions ioyntly considered to be sound and good Howsoeuer some of them might well haue bene omitted for example 1 If our Sauiour haue promised his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to teach a certaine companie of men all truth then the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith This consequence is but weake for Christ may affoord such presence and assistance to such a purpose and yet the effect not ensue by reason that those men faile in some duties required on their part Do not you affirme in this Treatise that God hath appointed meanes of saluation for all men with a true will to haue them saued and yet verie many yea the greatest part are not saued 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature then their preaching is the rule of faith Their commission is not simply to teach but to teach those things that our Sauiour himselfe commaunded and therefore their doctrine can be no farther the rule of faith then they preach according to their commission If I or an Angell from heauen saith the Apostle preach vnto you otherwise then that you haue receiued let him be accursed The same may be obiected against the third and the fifth points It doth not follow that their doctrine is the rule of faith because all men haue warrant to heare them safely or because they are threatned who will not heare and beleeue them For first they may be free from danger of erring and yet not know all points of faith which is made by you one condition of the rule Secondly vnlesse you enlarge the warrant as farre as the commaundement in the fourth point which is in a manner to confound them so that they may safely heare them in all things your consequence will still be naught Thirdly they may heare them safely though the other may erre if they haue means affoorded to examine that they deliuer skill and care to vse those meanes Fourthly the threatning for not beleeuing is to be restrained to their teaching as they ought Are not they threatned by our Sauiour who beleeue not any Minister lawfully authorised and preaching the truth Yet doth it not follow hereupon that they cannot erre or that their preaching is simply the rule of faith But these feeble consequences might all haue bene omitted by you and your matter as fully prooued if you had set downe none but the fourth and sixth points thus If God haue commaunded all men to doe in all things as the Church teacheth and the other conditions required in the rule be not wanting then their preaching is the rule that all men ought to follow This consequence is true and sufficient for your purpose the other serue for number to make a shew rather then for substance of weight But of your Maior this may be sufficient especially since I acknowledge the truth thereof A. D. §. 3. But so it is that Christ our Sauiour hath in holy Scripture promised giuen commission warranted commaunded and threatned in manner aforesaid Therefore we cannot doubt but that there is a certaine company the which is called the true Church of Christ which both is in all points of faith infallibly taught by the holy Spirit and is likewise to teach all sorts of men in all points of faith what is the infallible truth and therefore the teaching of this companie may well be assigned and proposed to all men as an vndoubted sufficient rule of faith A. W. I denie your Minor first in generall because our Sauiour did not so promise charge warrant commaund threaten in regard of any companie of men as if there had bene some ioynt teaching appointed by him but in respect of his Apostles and Ministers seuerally who in their proportion haue as much authoritie for necessitie of being beleeued seuerally one by one as iointly all together though such a ioynt consent is the more to be reuerenced and respected Secondly I denie it also in the fourth point which is the strength of it There neuer was since the Apostles any man or any companie of men according to whose saying we were commaunded to doe in all things Lastly I say the conditions required in the rule of faith are wanting in the teaching you vnderstand This conclusion of yours giueth me occasion to speake somewhat at large of the Church with the name whereof applied to your Pope alone or Pope and Cleargie you daily seduce many vnsetled and ignorant people The word Church in our English tongue seemeth first of all to haue bene applied to the Temple or place of Gods seruice as if it were called Kyrke of the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the Lords house But the Hebrew Greek words which must be the Iudges in this matter signifie a Companie Congregation or Assemblie The Hebrew words are two the Greeke as many the Latin besides the two Greeke made Latin are diuers Populi people Coetus
companie congregatio congregation multitudo multitude turba troope concio assembly exercitus armie But the two Greeke words are best knowne Ecclesia and Synagôga the former whereof commeth of the Hebrew retaining almost the signification and sound thereof In this they all agree that they note vnto vs a companie or assembly But because the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the word that most of all concerneth this question let vs enquire of that the more diligently The word for the nature of it signifieth any companie called together generally any assembly lawfully or vnlawfully orderly or disorderly assembled Of lawful assemblies there is no question of vnlawfull we haue an example in the Scripture where the people of Ephesus tumultuously ranne together against Paul and Apollos So doth the Hebrew word signifie in the Psalmes where the Greeke and Latine translate by the same word I haue hated the assembly of the wicked But in the new testament except that one place of the Acts it is alwaies applied to them that make profession of religion In which sense it is sometimes vsed indefinitely God hath ordained some in the Church first Apostles c. So the Apostle Paul saith that he had persecuted the Church of God Thus may we also vnderstād that The house of God which is the Church of the liuing God If we conceiue that the Apostle speaketh to Timothie as to an Euangelist and not as to the Pastor or Bishop of Ephesus Hitherto may those places be referred The Lord added to the Church from day to day And great feare came on all the Church Herode stretched forth his hand to vexe certaine of the Church and such like though they may also be vnderstood of the beleeuers at those times ordinarily abiding in Ierusalem and assembling themselues together in one or which is the likelier in diuers congregations for exercise of religion More particularly and vsually the Church is taken for anie one congregation assembled about matters of religion It seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church Not as if the Apostles and Elders had bene no members of that Church but the principall being first named the generall terme is added which comprehended all as if they should haue said The Apostles and Elders and all the rest of the Church at Ierusalem whereof as it was a particular congregation the Apostles at that time were not members And in this meaning may a Councell of diuers parishes prouinces or nations be called by the name of a Church and in the like sort may we call the assemblies congregations in Rome Coriath Ephesus the Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus because of some common synod or because by the terme Church the beleeuers are signified Most vsually the seuerall congregations in any countrie or Citie are called Churches because of their ordinarie assembling Then had the Churches rest through all Iudea When they had ordained them Elders by election in euery Church VVe haue no such custome nor the Churches of God When the title is applied to particular families it hath no other meaning as I take it then to note them for Christians or beleeuers Greet the Church that is the beleeuers which are in their house And thus much of the Church as it signifieth generally Beleeuers The word Church is vsed in the scriptures and that verie often not for all but onely for some beleeuers namely for such as are indeed true beleeuers in respect of true faith in Iesus Christ and these are alwaies of the elect who are then called the Church when they are brought to the knowledge of the truth and to Iustifying faith Therefore when we say that the Church signifieth the elect or predestinate we meane onely such of the elect as by faith are members of our Sauiours bodie he being the head For howsoeuer in the secret Counsell of God many not yet borne be predestinate to euerlasting life yet they are not to be accounted of this Church before it hath pleased God to call them to beleeue in Christ Examples of the Church thus taken amongst many are these Vpon this rocke I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it God hath giuen Christ aboue all the head of the Church So the Church is called Christs bodie This may serue concerning the meaning of the wotd out of which I obserue this point that since the terme Church is so diuersly taken in the scripture no argument from any place of Scripture can be of force to prooue any question till the signification of the word in that place be euident and certaine And therefore it is not enough for proofe of a matter in controuersie betwixt vs to alledge a text of Scripture where such a thing is spoken of the Church but it stands vs vpon to prooue that in the place we alledge by Church the companie we intend is signified This being vnderstood and remembred I come now to the seuerall points in your Minor A. D. §. 4. The promise of our Sauiour Christ we haue first in the Gospell of Saint Matthew Ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi I am with you all the daies vntill the end of the world in which words is promised the continuall presence of Christ himselfe who is veritas the truth it selfe with his Church not for a while then or for a while now but all the daies vntill the end of the world Secondly we haue an other promise in the Gospell of Saint Iohn Ego rogabo Patrem alium paracletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeternum Spiritum veritatis I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other paraclite the spirit of truth that he may remaine with you not onely for 600. yeares but for euer And againe in the same Saint Iohn to shew vs for what purpose he would haue his holy Spirit remaine among vs for euer he saith Paracletus quem mittet Pater in nomine meo ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero vobis The paraclite whom my Father will send in my name shall teach you all things and shall put you in minde of all things whatsoeuer I shall say vnto you And againe Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem When that spirit of truth shall come he shall teach you all truth A. W. The first point of your Minor is that Christ promiseth his presence and the assistance of his spirit to teach them all truth First I demaund whether our Sauiours presence be for the teaching of all truth or no or whether that be onely the office of the spirit If the former to what purpose is the spirit promised whom our Sauiour hath appointed his vicegerent as it were in that matter as the other places you alledge prooue
If it belong to the spirit how is the presence of Christ applied therunto But to answer directly to the place thus you dispute If Christ haue promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world then he hath promised it that he might teach the Church all truth But he hath promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world Therefore he hath promised it that he might teach them all truth Admit all this were granted yet would it not follow hereupon that the Church therefore could not erre because as I answered before perhaps they would not haue care to learne and remember all though our Sauiour were readie to teach them all I denie the consequence of your proposition First because they to whom our Sauiour maketh this promise are not the Church as you vnderstand the Church that is the Cleargie of whose teaching you wholy speake but the faithfull ioyntly and seuerally as well hearers as teachers as well euery one as all together This appeareth by the text Go teach all nations c. and behold I am with you till the end of the world With whom With you that teach only Nay rather with al beleeuers for all which he praied as well as for the teachers So haue the ancient writers expounded and vnderstood this place He doth not say he will be with them onely saith Chrysostome but also with all that shall beleeue after them For the Apostles were not to continue to the end of the world but he speaketh to the faithfull as to one bodie Christ sheweth saith Jerome that he will neuer depart from them that beleeue So doth Cyprian make it common to all beleeuers that confesse the truth of God in time of triall So doth Leo to all that are adopted He that is gone vp into Heauen saith Leo doth not forsake them that are adopted So Beda he remaineth with his elect in this world protecting thē To which purpose S. Austin saith that this promise is fulfilled by our Sauiour in that he is present according to his maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakable and inuisible grace With all that beleeue saith Gaudentius I will be with you that is saith Denys the Charterhouse monke with you and your successors and with all the faithfull or militant Church And thereupon he gathereth that the faith shall neuer wholy faile but Christian religion shall continue in some till the end of the world The like collection Rabanus maketh Hereby saith he it is vnderstood that there shall neuer be some wanting till the ende of the world who shall be worthie or fit for God to dwell in The Councell of Vienna as Gregorie de Valentia saith expounded the place of Christ being present in the Sacrament which is common to all beleeuers lib. 3. Clement de relique vener sanctorum c. si Dominum Secondly the consequence is naught because the ende of Christs presence is not to teach the Church all truth but to protect and defend them by his power in the profession of the truth So it is applied as we heard before by Cyprian to the comfort of the Christians then imprisoned for religion So doth Austin take it that he is present by his prouidence and diuine Maiestie The same is Haymo his iudgement and exposition But Martialis is most plaine who by this promise exhorteth thē of Tholouse in France to perseuere in the profession of religion because our Sauiour Christ will neuer leaue thē but alwaies be present with them He confirmeth and encourageth them saith Theophylact because he sent them to the Gentiles into dangers and hazards of their liues And Chrysostome thinketh wherein also Theophyl secondeth him that our Sauiour mentioneth the end of the world because he would haue them with more patience and constancy endure what soeuer hard measure for a time vpon earth in regard of the ioyes whereof they should be made partakers in the world to come If then this promise of our Sauiour belong to all euery true beleeuer if it be vttered for the comfort of all such that they may rest vpon his mighty protection who seeth not that an impossibilitie of your Cleargies erring cannot be concluded from it 1 The places of Iohn are thus to be concluded If our Sauiour haue promised the spirit of truth to a certain company of men to abide with thē for euer teach thē all truth then the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith But Christ hath promised the spirit so to a certain cōpany of men Therfore the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith First I answer that your conclusion proueth not the point in question because this companie to which the promise is made is not the Church from time to time but that promise belongeth to the Apostles either onely or at the least principally in such a measure of being taught The former may thus appeare because our Sauiour speaketh of another comforter in respect of his owne bodily departure from them which cannot belong to the Church now with which Christ was neuer present in that sort Secondly this spirit promised was to bring all things that Christ had taught to their remembrance whom he should teach But this cannot belong to the present Church nor to any Church since the Apostles Thirdly this sending of the spirit was performed when the holy Ghost came vpon the Apostles which doth not befall the Church now a dayes Fourthly the same spirit was to shew them the things to come either concerning themselues in particular or by giuing them the gift of prophesie which now the Church hath not Thus do Tertullian and Austin vnderstand these places applying them to the Apostles so doth Iansenius bishop of Gaunt so Chrysostome and Theophylact so your ordinary Glosses and Lyra. And whereas this interpretation may seeme to be refuted by the place it selfe because the spirit must abide with them to whom he is promised for euer that is expounded by Chrysostome to signifie his continuance with them euen after death also Which Theophylact sets out more at large His companie with you saith our Sauiour shall not be for a time as mine but shall continue for euer neither shall it faile when you are dead but shall remaine with you and shall make you more glorious He promiseth saith your Glosse that the spirit shall do all not that all is fulfilled in this life This Comforter saith Lyra shall not be taken from you as my humane nature is drawne away by death but shall be with you eternally here by grace but in the world to come by glorie We may perhaps conceiue our Sauiours meaning to be no more but that the spirit which hee would send should not leaue them as he was to do but should abide
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
maintained The Philosophers indeed as Thomas saith had a kind of notion of some points thereof but they had no certaintie as well because they were corrupted with errors as for that very few of them are found to haue agreed in the same truth But in the Church is certaine knowledge and truth Which as Caietan saith is vpheld aloft in it because it is auowed reuerenced and honored aboue all things and it is so founded in the Church that out of it it is not to be found This is the reason as they truly say why the Church is called a pillar Thomas addeth that it is termed the ground in respect of others because men cannot be confirmed in the truth but by the sacraments of the Church This testimonie of Austine is alledged by you otherwise then it was written by him For whereas he spake of that which had then alreadie bene resolued of by the whole Church you make him speake indefinitely of any thing that pleaseth the Church turning iam placuit into placet But we must vnderstand that he writing in that place concerning the rebaptizing of heretickes which question had bene agreed vpon as he saith in the former chapter before the hatching of Donatus heresie saith that the iudgement of the Church in that case is to be held as agreeable to the Scripture This might the Reader haue seene in his words if you had not changed the tense in placet and left out etiam in hac re in the beginning of the sentence The truth of the Scriptures saith Austin is held by vs euen in this thing If you reply farther that the reason which Austin vseth is generall for all questions whatsoeuer namely the authoritie of the Church commended by the Scriptures which cannot erre I answer you first that we haue seene Austins iudgement directly to the contrary viz. that whatsoeuer is of necessitie to saluation is plainly deliuered in the Scriptures and that the authoritie of men without Scripture is insufficient to propound any doctrine as a matter of faith and therefore if he should write otherwise in this place we might with good reason make question of his authoritie Secondly I answer that Austine speaketh here of those points onely which are not determinable by Scripture such as he taketh the question of rebaptizing heretickes to be as it appeareth in the words immediatly before those you alledge being also a peece of the sentence by you omitted Although saith Austin there be no example to be brought out of the Scriptures concerning this matter yet the truth of the same Scriptures is euen in this matter also held by vs when we do that which hath now alreadie pleased the whole Church c. Now in such cases as cannot by Scripture be decided who would or may be so presumptuous as to withstand or mislike the practise of the church in all places Surely the authoritie of the church is so far commended in the Scriptures that it ought in all things of such nature to ouerweigh our iudgement and incline our affection to the liking of that which is agreed on by so generall a consent of so many churches in all nations Therefore that which you gather out of Austins words of following the iudgement of the church in an obscure question is to be restrained to such questions as cannot be determined by the Scriptures and those are few or none of any importance of necessitie to saluation none at all or else your consequence will be nothing worth Austin saith that in questions not determinable by Scripture we must follow the iudgement of the church Therefore we must follow it in all obscure questions whatsoeuer Austins foundation will not beare your building Is it a good reason to say In cases not prouided for by law custome must beare sway therfore it must be followed in all cases So and so weakly do you dispute It is not enough for you to teach vs new diuinitie but you will driue vs to learne new Latin too Caesar could make men free of Rome but not words Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam to beleeue the Catholicke Church in ordinary Latin is to beleeue that there is a Catholicke Church Credo esse I beleeue there is but you would make the ignorant beleeue that credo Ecclesiam and credo Ecclesiae is all one For how else can this sentence reasonably depend vpon the former We must follow the iudgement of the Church Therfore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam What can you meane by this but I beleeue that is I giue credit to the Catholick Church that is I beleeue that to be true which the Catholicke Church teacheth But the article of the Creed hath no such sense as it may appeare by the other that follow all being alike in respect of our beleefe I beleeue the communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the resurrection of the bodie and life euerlasting To which of these foure dowe giue any such credit But we beleeue that there is a Church of Christ to which all these priuiledges belong He that translated Epiphanius into Latin more curiously then truly made a difference betwixt beleeuing the church and the other articles We beleeue saith he one holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church we confesse one baptisme for the forgiuenesse of sinnes and looke for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come But the Greeke which Epiph. reciteth out of the Nicene creed is alike in all the articles in the Church in the baptisme of repentance in the resurrection of the dead And Paschasius doubteth not to say that the ignorance of some drew the preposition in from the former sentence concerning beleefe in the holy Ghost into the article of the church yet as he sheweth credere Deum in Deum greatly differ That there is a God the Apostle saith the diuel beleeueth but no mā is held to beleeue in God but he that religiously puts his trust in him Cyril also reciteth the articles after the same manner without any difference in the particulars yet with In to euerie one of them and in that sense in which we take them Ruffin as Paschasius before denieth that the Creed saith In the holy Church in the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the resurrection of the flesh Because that were to equall our beleefe of these points with our beleeuing in the Father the Son and the holy Ghost But of these articles we are to beleeue that they are true that there is a Church gathered vnto God that there is a remission of sinnes that there is a resurrection of the flesh So doth Austin if those Sermons be his read and vnderstand it I beleeue the Catholicke Church c. We must beleeue that God will vouchsafe the resurrection of bodies and the forgiuenesse of sinnes And whereas in an other Sermon he saith in the Church so doth he
time for all men know it erred in diuers though not fundamentall if we may gesse by the writings of the learned in those ages or that the Church hath or shall want the performance of Christs promise at any time for a moment But what is all this to the matter we haue in hand Well Let vs see yet what you say A. D. §. 2. Against these men I set downe this assertion The true Church of Christ which the forenamed testimonies of Scripture do commend was and is to continue without interruption till the worlds end This I prooue First out of the verie words of those promises which I cited out of Saint Matthew and Saint Iohn For how can Christ our Sauiour or his holy Spirit be with his Church in such sort as there is promised to wit till the worlds end and for euer and especially as is said in Saint Matthew Omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi All the daies euen to the end of the world vnlesse the Church also be all the daies vntill the end of the world For if the Church for any time daies monthes or years doe cease to be Christ cannot for these yeares moneths and daies be truly said to be with his Church sith he cannot be with that which is not and consequently he cannot be said to haue fulfilled his promise wherein he said he would be with his Church all the daies vntill the end of the world A. W. The men against whom you set downe this Assertion are of your owne making that you might haue against whom to shew your valour once it cannot concerne vs who acknowledge the continuance of Christs Church without interruption till the worlds end As long as these times shall run on saith Austin the Church of God that is the bodie of Christ shall not be wanting vpon earth This is the Church spoken of in as many of these testimonies as are not peculiar to the Apostles namely the elect from time to time not your Romish synagogue wherein many of the reprobate also are included and that as members of your congregation who cannot without dishonour of our Sauiour Christ be accounted parts of his glorious bodie The truth of your Assertion needeth no proofe and the weaknesse of your proofe is a disgrace to your Assertion Christ will be with his Church at all times whensoeuer there are any that beleeue in him not onely whilest the Apostles liue therefore there shall alwaies be some in the world without interruption that shall beleeue in him This is but a loose consequence I grant the conclusion or consequent that there shall be a Church alwaies but I denie that therefore there shall alwaies be one because our Sauiour promiseth to be with it whensoeuer it is Put case our Sauiour had thus spoken I will be with you in your persecution all the daies euen to the end of the world might a man reasonably conclude from hence that therfore the Church shall be alwaies persecuted without any interruption or ease one day from persecution Such is your consequence and as such insufficient to prooue your Assertion A. D. §. 3. Secondly I prooue the same out of an other promise or prophesie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church wherein he saith Portae inferninon praeualebunt aduersus eam the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For how was it true that the gates of hel shall not preuaile if they haue preuailed so much as vtterly to abolish the Church or at least to banish it quite out of the world for so long a time Granting therfore which euery Christiā must needs grant that the prophesies promises of our Sauiour are alwaies fulfilled and that they are vnfallibly true we may not doubt but that the church hath euer bene since Christ his time and shal neuer cease to be in the world A. W. This proofe is little or nothing better then the former thus you conclude If Christ haue promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against his Church then it must continue without interruption till the worlds end But Christ hath promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it Therefore it must continue without interruption till the worlds end I denie the consequence of your maior first because the Church in this place doth not signifie such a companie of men as you by that name vnderstand but the congregation of the elect who by true faith confesse as Peter did and being built vpon our Sauiour the rocke shal neuer be remoued and perish And this promise is made not onely to all ioyntly but to euery one seuerally as it was to Peter and all the rest of the Apostles If there be any saith Origen against whom the gates of hell shall preuaile such a one is neither the rocke vpon which Christ buildeth nor the Church which is built by Christ vpon the rocke Euerie one saith the same Origen that is a follower of Christ by imitation is a rocke or stone But he against whom the gates of hell preuaile is neither to be counted a rocke nor the Church nor part of the Church which Christ builds vpon the rocke Againe whosoeuer is Christs disciple saith the same author is a rocke but many are called and few chosen As if he should haue said that the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile is euery one of the elect and that he against whom those gates do preuaile is none of the elect or church to which that promise of our Sauiour was made Theophylact though he expound the place of the Church somewhat generally yet hee doubteth not to adde that euery one of vs also is the church which is the house of God if therefore we be confirmed in the confession of Christ the gates of hell that is sinnes shall not preuaile against vs. The gates of hell saith your Glosse are sinnes threatnings flatterings heresies whereby they that are weake runne into destruction who are not to be thought to haue built the house of their profession of beleeuing soundly vpon the rocke but vpon the sand that is to follow Christ with a simple and true intent but to haue made a shew for some earthly respect For he that receiueth the faith of Christ with the inward loue of his heart easily ouercometh whatsoeuer outwardly befalleth him Lyra saith that the church here spoken of consisteth of those persons in whō there is true knowledge confessiō of the faith truth not of any men in respect of their power or dignity ecclesiasticall or ciuill because many Princes Popes and other inferiour Christians are found to haue made Apostasie from the faith Luke of Bruges though he will not haue this promise of victorie belong to euery particular member of the church yet he granteth that euery liuing member thereof stedfastly cleauing vnto it may conceiue good hope of triumphing
on whom al men gaze Thinke not therefore saith our Sauiour that ye shal lie hid in a corner Ye shal be the light of the world and therefore see that you liue vnblameably and become not an offence to other men Who can gather from hence the consequence of your proposition If the Church be not visible to all men at all times it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world Your second proofe concerning the rule and meanes is no lesse insufficient If the Church at any time could not be knowne of men you must needs meane of euery particular man if you will speake to the purpose it cannot at all times be a meanes by which the truth may be knowne to all sorts of men This is the consequence I denied before either brought by you for a new proofe or repeated idly within 3. or 4. lines after it was first deliuered Here you returne to your minor and to proue the latter part of it propound the second time your maine reason answered at large in the fifth Chapter It would be tedious and losse of time and labour to repeate all that was then said I wil therfore content my selfe to draw it into forme as it lieth and to denie the false propositions without any more adoe vnlesse I meete with somewhat by the way which was not in your former discourse Thus you reason If the Church be not ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation then some men at some time haue wanted one necessary meanes to that purpose But no man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes to that purpose Therefore the Church is ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or means by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation I denie your Assumption which you endeuour to proue in this sort If any man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes then it is not vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth But it is vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth Therefore no man at any time hath wanted any necessarie meanes Againe I denie your minor referring the Reader for the true sense of that Scripture to my answer in the fift Chapter The proofe of your consequence about which you labor like a man that claps plaister vpon plaister on a sound place is altogether needlesse and not worth the examining saue onely that in the last clause thereof you confidently harp vpon the former string which soundeth nothing but the necessitie of a visible Church to saluation But the Apostle where he sheweth what is of necessitie to faith neither mentioneth nor any way implieth a visible Church but only requireth a sending of some to preach and that may be from God immediatly not by succession in and by men Did not our Sauiour Christs preaching bring many to faith in him and so to saluation Did not Peter conuert 3000. at one Sermon Did not the Apostle Paul plant many Churches Was any of these a visible Church or did the people to whom they preached either seeke to them as to a visible Church or beleeue that they deliuered because they were sent by a visible Church It is true that no man ordinarily can beleeue vnlesse he heare no man can heare vnlesse there be one to preach to him no man can preach vnlesse he be sent But what is all this to the necessitie of a visible Church Looke through the whole history of the new Testament and see how many examples you can finde of any that were but so much as occasioned to beleeue by the meanes of a visible Church The same of our Sauiours miracles drew many to the hearing of him not the knowledge of any visible Church Cornelius a deuout man and one that feared God liuing neare to the places where the Gospell was preached was not moued by the visible Church but by a vision from heauen to send for Peter that he might heare and beleeue I might shew the like in diuers other examples that the Apostles were faine seuerally to go from place to place to preach the Gospell and not to stay till the fame of them or a visible Church should moue people to enquire after them I denie not that occasion may be giuen to men to hearken after the Gospell by reason of some visible Church whereof they may by diuers meanes haue vnderstanding but that it is vnpossible for men to come to the knowledge of true faith and hereby to saluation without a visible Church or that a visible Church is alwayes the first step to saluation though sometimes it may be the first occasion of hearing and beleeuing A. D. §. 4. Thirdly if the vniuersall Church of Christ should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue For if it did outwardly professe how should it not by this profession be made visible and knowne But if the vniuersall Church should for such a time faile to professe the faith hell gates contrarie to Christs promise did mightily preuaile against it For were it not a mightie preuailing that the whole Church should faile in a thing so necessarie to saluation as we know outward profession of faith to be necessarie both by that of our Sauiour Qui negauerit me coram hominibus ego negabo illum coram Patre meo He that shall denie me before men I wil denie him before my Father And Qui me erubuerit sermones meos hunc Filius hominis erubescet He that shal be ashamed of me and of my words him the Sonne of man wil be ashamed of And by that of S. Paule Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore fit confessio ad salutem With heart we beleeue to iustice with mouth we confesse to saluation Which place learned men interprete to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation and they say further that this sometimes is so oft as either the glorie of God or the profite of our neighbour doth of necessitie require it the which cases of necessitie do happen verie often and great maruell it were or rather vnpossible that they should neuer haue happened for so long a time as the Protestants would haue their Church to haue beene inuisible A. W. If the vniuersall Church of Christ say you should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue But it may not for any space cease to professe that faith Therefore it may not for any space of time be inuisible To omit that fancie that there is one such vniuersall Church of
Christ vpon earth whereof hereafter when I come to speake of the Catholicke Church I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is possible that al the Churches in the world should gloriously professe the true faith and yet many thousands be vtterly ignorant that there are any such Churches Was not your Church of Rome which hath bene famous enough for outward state altogether vnknowne at the least a long time in the Indies and America till within these 100. yeares or thereabouts And yet do you aske If it did outwardly professe how it should not by this profession be made visible and knowne Hath not the kingdome of China if we beleeue the report of your Iesuites and other Friers bene a mightie and rich estate many hundred yeares and yet not heard of till of late in most parts of Christendome If you reply that the Churches must needs be knowne to them amongst or neare whom they are I answer that this proueth not their visibilitie to all men at all times no nor to them in the midst of whom they dwell vnlesse the Churches be setled in some outward peace that the members thereof may freely shew themselues Your minor is false it may come to passe that the Church may cease for a space to make open profession of that faith which in hart it doth beleeue else how could Eliah liuing in the kingdom of Israel haue bene ignorant that there were 7000. true worshippers of God in that countrey Your proofe is insufficient If it might come to passe say you that the Church should cease to professe outwardly then should the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But the gates of hell shal not mightily preuaile against it contrary to his promise Therefore it may not come to passe that the Church should cease so to professe The consequence of your maior is too weake Our Sauiours promise is neither to the whole Church considered as a companie ioyntly together but to euery true beleeuer as I shewed before nor concerning outward profession against which Peter the head of the Church as you dreame grieuously sinned but of continuing ioyned to Iesus Christ as the head by a true iustifying faith resting on him for saluation In which estate Peter alwayes was preserued by our Sauiour though the diuel preuailed against him to the deniall of his Lord and Master for feate of death But let vs see your proofe If outward profession be a thing necessary to saluation then if the church faile in that the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But outward profession is a thing necessary to saluation Therfore if the Church faile in outward profession the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise I denie your minor Such outward profession as you meane is not necessary to saluation For the better clearing whereof we must a little examine what it is for a thing to be necessary to saluation then what profession may be counted necessary For the former that is necessary to the saluation of a man without which he cannot possibly be saued Now these things are either simply necessarie so that the absence of them shuts a man out of heauen or necessarie onely in some sort Simply necessarie on mans part for in that sense we speake now of things necessarie are acknowledgement of sinne faith in Iesus Christ and repentance wheresoeuer any of these is wanting there is no possibilitie of saluation so long as they are wanting Other things there are onely so far necessarie as that the contempt or neglect of them baâ—s a man of saluation Such are the Sacraments and outward profession both in generall by becoming a member of some true visible Church and in particular by witnessing the truth as oft as the Lord shall minister iust occasion Concerning this latter kinde of things necessarie we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of these duties and beleeue in Iesus Christ there is mercie for vs with God though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them Touching the latter point of outward profession it is as I signified ere while of two sorts either a ioyning of our selues to some Church professing true Religion or a bearing witnesse of the truth of God which we professe To this latter especially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you To the former that text which you set in the last place as it shal appeare by and by You will aske me perchance whether of these two is the profession you speake of Surely to speake plainly and properly neither of them For it is a conceit of your owne deuising without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture and namely of those places you bring for proofe of it yet may it in some sort be referred to the latter as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God whereof we are professors So then the answer is first that no kinde of outward profession is simply necessary to saluation as if the absence of it were in it selfe damnable though the contempt or neglect of the dutie not repented of brings certaine damnation Secondly that it is not necessary to saluation either simply or in any sort that a whole Church should at all times make open profession to the world of that Religion which they hold and secretly practise This is that outward profession which is meant in your minor by which conceit you shut out of heauen all Churches that is all assemblies of the faithfull which at any time haue for borne to cast themselues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirstie and rauening persecutors by proclaiming openly their faith in Christ It is too true that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried some men now and then farther then they should haue gone to the endangering and losing of their liues But it is as true that our Sauiour his Apostles and the Churches from time to time haue beene carefull to hide themselues from the sight of Tyrants when the Gospell was persecuted as farre as their callings and other occasions would giue them leaue Indeede they they neuer would neither is it lawfull denie the truth of God or themselues to be professors of it if they were called in question for it yet did they conceale as much as they could from the persecutors their times and places of meeting and also the seuerall members of their Churches To denie Christ or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable and without repentance bringeth damnation vnauoideably not to make publicke profession of religion is not alwaies so but then onely when the Lord by some speciall occasion according to the generall dutie of a Christian or a mans particular calling thrusteth or draweth him foorth to giue testimonie to the truth by maintaining it or suffering for it Which your selfe also afterward acknowledge by
the iudgement of the learned who teach that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation Now for answer to your proofes I say as before that the two former concerne especially the denying either of religion in generall or some speciall truth in question when the Lord as it were calleth vs out to professe and auouch it as he did the Apostles in that place by sending them abroad to preach the Gospell If you saith our Sauiour in effect or any other minister shall forbeare to discharge your duties by preaching my truth and maintaining it if you be called in question for it I will neuer acknowledge you for mine in the kingdome of heauen The Apostles calling necessarily required preaching of the word and for them to haue failed in that dutie for feare or shame or otherwise had bene to denie their Lord and master Yet were they not so tied to this dutie that they must needs continue their publicke preaching in those places where persecution was raised against them but they might flee from one Citie to another and yet not be counted to denie the Lord Iesus As for the Churches that were gathered by the Apostles preaching there is neither charge nor reason to be shewed why they should bewray themselues to their persecutors by open practise of religion in the eies of the world Indeed the worship of God is not to be neglected though we cannot performe it without manifest daunger of our liues but there is no necessitie to worship God publickly where the truth is persecuted Therefore did the anciēt Christiās in such places assemble as secretly as they could neither leauing the exercises of religion for feare nor by an incōsiderate zeal hazarding their own liues To denie Christ is not to conceale himselfe frō persecutors but being found by them to renounce his profession and so is the place ordinarily applied by Cyprian the Clergie of Rome and Tertullian men enough fauouring martyrdome Yea Tertullian in that verie booke wherein he labours to prooue that it is not lawfull for a man to flie in time of persecution yet aduiseth men to hold their assemblies for the exercises of religion in the night time if they cannot haue them conueniently in the day Theophylact expoundeth this confession and deniall of acknowledging or denying Christ to be God Brugensis somewhat more particularly He that denieth me to be his Lord and Sauiour that he beleeueth in me that he sticketh fast to me and my doctrine So doth Iansenius vnderstandit though he stretch it also to the denying of Christ by wicked conuersation The denying of Christs name saith Lyra is alwaies a mortall sinne Not to confesse or be silent concerning it is sometimes a mortall sinne As if a man be silent when he is asked of it If he professe it being not asked it is a worke of supererogation Doth any of these or any man else conclude the visibilitie of the Church from these or the like places of Scripture No man is to denie our Sauiour nor to be ashamed of his truth What then Therefore must they that beleeue in Christ openly make profession thereof at all times without any wisedome of the Serpent for their owne preseruation or else can they not be saued A cruell and foolish conceit This proofe is to as little purpose as the former Confession by mouth is required to saluation therefore outward profession of faith is at all times necessarie Who sees not the weaknesse of this cōsequence Doth not he confesse with mouth that ioynes himselfe to some knowen Church of Christ and communicates with them ordinarily in the outward worship of God though all the world know not there are any such beleeuers professors yea though the people among whom they liue be not priuie to their meetings and profession There may be occasion for a man or a Church to manifest themselues vnto the world and they that in such a time shall faile can looke for no mercie at the hands of God without true and earnest repentance But this prooues not that therefore the Churches must make such publicke profession that they may at all times be knowen to all men To perswade vs of the former wherein there is no doubt you tell vs that Learned men autors in the aire as one of your side saith in the like case interprete this place to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie Who euer denied it But doth any learned man say that therefore the Church must alwaies make such profession That is the point in question and of that you are as dumbe as a fish yea do you not perceiue that your learned men refute that conceit Doth not he that expoundeth that place of necessitie at sometimes denie that it requireth such necessitie at all times It is necessarie saith Frier Soto for a righteous man that he may obtaine euerlasting life to confesse his faith with his mouth wheresoeuer the time necessarily required by this precept offers it selfe Catharin your Bishop speaketh yet more plaine Such confession namely that a man confesse with his mouth that which he beleeueth in his heart as he expounded himselfe a little before is not alwaies required but as Thomas saith according to the time and place And indeed so Thomas saith adding withall that Affirmatiue commaundements binde at all times but require not performance at all times Your interlinear and ordinarie Glosses and Lombard restraine it to the time of persecution or at least when the truth is called in question Caietan makes this when more generall but signifieth that this confession is not at all times necessarie As for the times when it is to be held for necessarie your learned men do somewhat more particularly deliuer the point then you report it Confession of Gods truth quoth Sotus and therein he followth Thomas is necessarie vpon paine of losing saluation either when it is required by a persecutor of the faith which confession the martyrs made with their bloud or when it is necessarie for those that belong to our charge by danger of heresie likely to ensue which dutie of confession properly concerneth Prelates c. These occasions haue many times bene offered and accordingly many professors of that truth which wee now maintaine haue with the shedding of their bloud giuen testimonie of the Gospell against the errours and tyrannie of your Antichristian Prelates Those holy martyrs who from time to time haue bene butchered by your Synagogue of Sathan were of the same Church with vs howsoeuer they saw not the truth of God in many points so clearely as it hath pleased him to reueale it to vs by the ministerie of his seruants in these latter dayes If they vsed their best discretion and endeuours to hide themselues as much as might be from your furie they did no more then the light of nature and
did not enter into it Sith at all times the merits and fruits of Christs passion are inclosed in it and the means of saluation and to escape eternall damnation are onely found in it The Church therefore is visible at all times For at all times that prophecy of Isaias must be true wherein our Lord speaketh thus to the Church Aperiētur portae tuae iugiter die ac nocte non claudentur vt afferatur ad te fortitudo gentium reges earū adducantur Gens enim regnū quod non seruierit tibi peribit Thy gates shal be cōtinually opened day night they shall not be shut that the strength of nations the kings therof may be brought vnto thee for the nation kingdome which shal not serue thee shall perish A. W. This is your fift argument wherein you haue wasted more paper then in all the former Let vs see if your paines be not to as little purpose If the true Church say you was once visible you should adde to all men and no reason can be shewed why it should be so then and not now then it is so now But the true Church was once visible and no reason can be shewed why it should be so then and not now Therefore the true Church is now visible Who denies this conclusion or what do you get by it The question is whether the Church of Christ be alwayes visible to all men or no. You conclude that it is now visible speaking neither of all men nor of all times in which two points the whole controuersie betwixt vs lieth saue that we also denie that there is any such one Church as you fondly suppose without any shew of proofe But that I may let nothing passe which is worth the answering I will apply this argument of yours as directly to the question as I can To speake plaine to euery mans vnderstanding the doubt is whether there be not at all times some one companie of Christians or other that maketh publicke profession of religion so that all men whatsoeuer and wheresoeuer may take notice of them as the true Church of Christ or no. In this question we differ from you in two points First we say that there neuer was any such companie in the world that could be knowne to all men Secondly we adde farther that euery true Church may be so opprest and driuen into a corner that it can be discerned by none but the members of it and yet may continue in the practise of religion by the ministery of the word sacraments and censures Now then I thus frame your reason for proofe of the question If at any time there were a company of mē visible to all the world and no reason can be shewed why there should at that time be such a companie and not at all other times also then there hath bene alwayes is now and shall be for euer such a companie visible to all men But there was once such a companie visible to all men and no reason can be shewed why there should be at any time and not at all times Therefore there alwayes hath bene is and shal be such a company visible to all men I denie the consequence of your maior though there had bin sometime such a company and no man were able to shew sufficient reason why there should be such a companie then and not alwayes yet I say it doth not follow that therefore there must at all times be such a companie The ground of my deniall is that God hath not reuealed to men the reason of all his decrees and actions Your Pope himselfe as presumptuous as he is I thinke dares not vndertake to declare or determine why many things fall out which we see dayly come to passe I presume all this while that you denie this possibilitie of giuing a reason to men onely not to God also for else your minor wil want little of blasphemie Your minor hath two parts and it is false in both For neither was the Church as you speake in the Apostles time visible to all men and there may be some reason why though it had bin so then yet it should not continue so alwayes Of the former I haue said enough heretofore and it is a conceit without truth or likelihood that all the world might take knowledge of the Church when it began in Ierusalem For the other point though I might stand vpon it and put you to proue that there can no reason be giuen yet will I endeuour for your better satisfaction if it may be to shew some reasons why it must needs be visible in the beginning yet was it not then visible to all mē and need not be so at all times But first let vs examine your proofe I will propound your reason in a syllogisme and then answer to it If the Church were in the Apostles time to be visible 1. because otherwise it could not be a Church 2. the offices and functions of the Church could not else be well performed 3. else men could not ioyne themselues vnto it and these reasons why it should be visible still continue then no reason can be shewed why it should then be visible and not alwayes But it was then to be visible for those reasons and they alwayes continue Therefore no reason can be shewed why it should then be so visible and not alwayes I do purposely omit the former part of the Assumption that the Church was visible to all men because I spake sufficiently of it before and it wil but hinder the examining of this syllogisme To which that I may answer orderly and plainly I deny the consequence of the maior Although these three had bin some of the reasons whether they be or no we will consider in the Assumption why the Church at the first must needs be visible and these reasons still continue yet would it not follow that then no reason can be shewed why it should be visible then and not so alwayes For there may and shall be other reasons giuen of the necessitie of visibilitie in those times Your minor also is false Neuer a one of the three alledged by you is any necessary reason of the Churches visibilitie in the Apostles times as shal appeare in the handling of them Wherein first I must speake a word or two of the definition of the Church as it is propounded in this place In the whole course of your treatise as I haue noted in my answer here and there you meane by the Church nothing else but your Clergie or rather your Bb. assembled together in a generall Councell Here belike vpon better aduice you are content to allow the people also for parts of the Church But to let that passe the first fault in your definition is that you fancie to your selfe one visible vniuersall Church consisting of all such as you account true Christians throughout the world whereas you are not
that the church must be visible to the members of it the Pastor must know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastor Which of vs euer denied this visibilitie or what is this to proue that the Church in the beginning of the Gospell was to be famously visible in the eies of all the world In a word then to your propositions seuerally you must adde to your maior one of these two clauses either to the members of it signifying that the Pastors and sheepe could not know one another vnlesse the Church were then visible to the members of it or to all men meaning that there could not be such mutuall knowledge betwixt the Pastor and the sheepe vnles the church were visible to all men In the former sense your proposition is true but altogether wide from the marke you ayme at In the latter you shoote right but a great deale ouer For though your consequence by this meanes wil proue true and to the purpose yet your minor wil be ouerlarge and your question stil remaine vnproued For it is ridiculous to imagine not onely to affirme that the Pastor and flocke cannot know each other except all the world know them too Why may not the like be said of the husband and the wife the father and the children the maister and the seruants May there not be gouerning and obeying but where all men see these actions performed But I dwell too long vpon so cleare a matter Onely I was desirous to suite my answer somewhat like to your argument for the length of it lest shortnesse might make your followers thinke it not well answered We are now come to the third point of the former part which you conclude thus If men that were out of the church were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnles it were visible then was this one reason of the visibilitie thereof But men out of it were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnlesse it were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches visibilitie This is the onely argument of the three that hath any shew of reason in it and yet this also is far from any necessary proofe For if in your minor you meane that all and euery man was to come into the Church for saluation as if God had intended the saluation of euery particular man by the publishing of the Gospell your said minor is in that respect false For our Sauiour himselfe giueth his Father thankes that he had hid the mysteries of the Gospell euen there where it was publikly preached from the wise and men of vnderstanding and reuealed it to babes or simple men Yea he professeth that there was an especiall act of God his Father required to the drawing of men to beleefe euen there where himselfe preached most powerfully and that some only and not all were so drawne by God Neither doth the difference in this case proceed from man but from God lest that man which makes the difference betwixt himselfe and another should haue iust cause to boast as if he were more beholding to himselfe of whom he had the very act of being willing to be saued then to God who onely gaue him power to be willing Therefore your glorious and Angelicall D r. Thomas saith that there can no more reason be giuen why God intendeth the saluation of this man and not of that man then why the Mason layeth this stone aboue and that below each of them hauing a like fitnesse to each place But if by men you vnderstand those men that were chosen of God to euerlasting life to whom onely the preaching of the Gospell was effectuall to true faith and saluation then I denie your minor in regard of the latter part also For there was no necessitie of the visibilitie of the Church to that purpose as if God could not otherwise haue procured that they should beleeue and be saued I adde farther that the meanes which it pleased God to vse for the conuerting of those that were then to be saued and ordinarily for publishing the glad tidings of the Gospell was not the visiblenesse of the Church but the preaching of his Apostles So that as I signified before the greatest natiōs of the world embraced the Gospell of Iesus Christ not because they saw some visible Church to which they might adioyne themselues but for the euidence of the truth which some one man or other preached to them without any reference or respect to any visible Church whatsoeuer The dissoluing of the visible Church at Ierusalem was the occasion of preaching the Gospell through the world Hauing thus examined your seuerall proofes I returne now to your principal assumption for the farther confuting wherof I must shew that there may be some reason giuen why it might please God to haue the Churches visible in the beginning and not alwayes To which purpose I must first intreate all men to vnderstand that I do not vndertake precisely to set downe the reasons why God wil haue his churches somtimes famously knowen sometimes hidden from the knowledge of the world For his counsels are vnsearchable and his wayes past finding out Farther I acknowledge in all truth and humblenesse that I hold the reuealed will of God for a sufficient reason of any thing which he doth will though I could in my ignorance obiect somthing against it which might affoord some cause of doubting With this protestation I say these might be some reasons First wheras the means of saluation had bin for a long time shut vp in the land of Iurie and in a manner made proper to the Iewes now the partition wall being broken downe the Gentiles also were to be receiued into the Couenant which to our reason at least could not conueniently haue bene done vnlesse the profession of the truth had bene famous and visible But when once by this meanes the sound of it was gone ouer the world there was no such necessitie of continuing visible Churches Secondly this visibilitie was at the first the more necessarie because otherwise the Iewes to whom first the Gospel appertained being dispersed in many nations could not so easily take knowledge of it now they haue iudged themselues vnworthie of it and the Lord hath giuen it to vs Gentiles Thirdly it was no small proofe of the truth of the Gospell and the power of God working by the ministery of the word that so great multitudes should so speedily be conuerted by so weake meanes there is not alwaies the like vse of the Churches visiblenesse Fourthly though the Lord in his mercie would haue the Gospell published to the world yet when it became generally abused to wantonnesse that mens eares itched after new doctrines and esteemed more of their owne deuises then of the true worship of God appointed by himselfe it pleased his maiestie to leaue men to their owne blindnesse and presumption reseruing to himselfe
a small companie here and there whom he kept as the 7000 in Elias time Lastly it was requisite that the prophecies in Paul and Iohn concerning Antichrist and his tyrannie and vniuersall Apostacie should be fulfilled which could not haue come to the iust height of extremitie if any Churches at least in those parts where Antichrist preuailed had continued visible These are a few of those reasons which in the blind iudgement of man not able to sound the depth of Gods secrets might be an occasion of making the Churches of Christ cease to be famous and of keeping the true professors shut vp in the wildernesse till the time appointed by God for Antichrists decay and ruine approached Yet did not the Lord all this time leaue himselfe and his truth without witnesse but from time to time stirred vp the spirits of his children to make the world search the Scriptures and discerne if they would that your Church of Rome so famous visible was corrupted with many errors and become the verie seat of Antichrist Thus I haue answered your fift reason in the conclusion whereof you adde a testimonie of Scripture to confirme the necessitie of the Churches perpetuall visiblenesse to all men If say you that prophecie of Esay Thy gates shall be continually open must at all times be true then the Church is visible at all times to all men But that Prophecie must be true at all times Therefore the Church is visible at all times to all men Though you ordinarily leaue out that clause of the Churches visiblenesse to all men yet I make bold to supply it because I am desirous to perswade my selfe that you doe so rather for shortnesse sake then in a craftie purpose to deceiue the Reader I denie the consequence of your Maior first because that prophecy may be alwaies true and yet the Church not alwaies visible For all prophecies in Scripture are alwaies true as being from God and yet doth it not follow hereupon that therefore whatsoeuer is prophecied must alwaies be true It was prophecied by God himselfe that the children of Israell should be seruants in Aegypt May I then say as you do If this prophecie must alwaies be true they must alwaies be seruants in Aegypt I trow not Prophecies are alwaies true but true onely according to the meaning of them that such or such things must be at the time and in the manner signified by them If you say your meaning is no more but that if that prophecie be true then the Church is alwaies visible to all men I answer that At all times was put in without cause and might as you see breed a question in your proposition Secondly taking your Maior in that sense I still denie the consequence of it For the gates of the Church may be open at all times yet all men neither see thē alwaies open nor know that there are any such gates or Church Might not the gates of Mexico or some Citie in the East Indies China or America be alwaies open and yet none in these westerne parts euer heare of any such Citie You will say perhaps that the Prophet by the gates being open signifieth the visibilitie of the Church It is not enough to say so vnlesse you prooue it too But that I may yeeld somewhat of my right in this case and not put you to your proofes in so hard a matter I answer with Austin speaking of such prophecies and promises that this place belongeth properly to the Church of the elect into which without any restraint many of the Gentiles do enter continually from day to day by their actuall beleeuing truly in Iesus Christ Which answer may the better appeare to be true if we consider that this promise is made to the Iewes whose Church-gates must alwaies stand opē to entertain the Gentiles coming vnto it But this can no way be true of the outward Church of the Iewes which then florished in Ierusalem was vtterly destroyed some fortie yeares after our Sauiours ascension Therefore it must belong to that remnant of Israel which is according to the election of grace Do not replie to this answer that the gates of this Church were alwaies open euen before our Sauiours coming For this Church in respect of the Gentiles had not a gate then but a little wicket which stood not alwaies open but was opened now and then vpon occasion when it pleased God to bring some one or other of the heathen extraordinarily to saluation by the acknowledging of the Messiah to come These gates are now haue bene this 1500 yeares and vpward shut vp against the Iewes as the Apostle lamentably coplaines not as some imagine because the visible Church was translated frō the Iewes to the Gentils which Paul would neuer so ambitiously haue affected as in respect of that To be contented to become Anathema that his countrimen might enioy the glorious smoke of such an outward priuiledge I speake in comparison of election to euerlasting life but for that the Lord would giue ouer his people the Iewes and not choose ordinarily out of them heires of his heauenly kingdome as before he had done We see and reioyce at the sight that the Lord of his great mercie calleth out some few from amongst that desperate multitude of the Iewes as before he did out of the Gentiles but the gates are now set open for the Gentiles and a small posterne for the Iewes But what if I should grant you that this prophecie may also be expounded of the outward profession of Religion must the Church then needs be visible at all times to all men The maine reason of the gates continuall standing open is signified by the Prophet to be this That the strength of the nations and their kings may come into the Church But this was long ago fulfilled by the iudgement of your owne writers The strength of the nations that is the most warlike nations saith Vatablus which saith he was fulfilled when the Romanes were added to the Church The opening of the gates Lyra referreth to Constantines time and therefore in his iudgement they were shut more then 300. yeares after Christ And so farre is he from once thinking on the visibilitie of the Church prophecied of in this place that he brings three other interpretations and not mentions your conceit The gates shall be open because saith Lyra Constantine commaunded that the Church gates should be opened which before were shut and that new Churches should be built This also may be expounded saith he of spirituall opening because the Church is alwaies open to receiue them that repent And because since Constantines time men began to flocke to the Church of Christ without feare The strength of the nations was brought because saith the same Author by the example of Constantine many Potentates and kings came to the faith of Christ The gates of the Church said
Ierome before Poperie was hatched shall alwaies be open to them that desire to be saued that entrance may not be denied either in prosperitie or aduersity to them that will beleeue Thus this place of Esay will not prooue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 7. Sixtly the onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or onely of the good But this is a false ground as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Ecclesia which euen by the Etymology of the word doth signifie the companie of men called now sure it is that moe are called then elected as our Sauiour saith Multi vocati pauci electi Againe this ground is shewed to be false by those parables in which the Church is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed And to a mariage to which came good and bad And to a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad And to ten Virgins wherof fiue were foolish and excluded from the celestiall mariage This ground is also shewed to be false out of Saint Paule who commaundeth the Corinthians to expell an incestuous person out of the Church Ergo before this expulsion there was such a person in the Church and therefore the Church doth not consist onely of those that be good A. W. Because your owne reasons are not strong enough to proue the point in question you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground whereupon onely as you confidently auouch we build our deniall of the Churches visibility at all times But neither is that our onely ground and if it were you are not able to shake it Concerning the former we denie the visibilitie of the Church as it is vnderstood in those places where our Sauiour promiseth spirituall graces to it and as it is taken in the Creed because that Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ and therefore can consist of none but those that are truly iustified and sanctified as none but the elect are But we farther denie the same visibilitie because you would haue vs beleeue that the Catholicke Church is visible To which we answer that this Catholicknesse let the Church be what it will maketh it inuisible because that which is Catholicke is generall consisting of many particulars and we haue learned that vniuersals are not subiect to sense but onely to be conceiued by the minde as hauing no outward shape which can be seene or knowen by any of the fiue senses Moreouer if we take the question in the most reasonable sort that may be and so it is verie seldome handled by you Whether there must alwaies be some one or other companie of men that may be famously knowen of all the world to be a true Church of Christ Still we continue in denying that visibilitie First as it is propounded by you for an Article of Faith and an essentiall propertie of the or a true Church Secondly because we are taught in the Scriptures that the true Church that is the professours of Christs true Religion shall be faine to flie into the wildernesse and so must needes be out of the sight of at least the greatest part of the world I am loth to repeate these things so often but you driue me to it my helpe is to do it as shortly as I can All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground vpon which our denial of the Churches visibilitie stādeth are diuided by you into two bands with the former whereof thus you set vpon vs. The companie of men called consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is the companie of men called Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely I denie your Minor many men are called that are not of the Church which consisteth of such onely as being called are also elect It is true that the word Church is sometimes so generally taken that it compriseth all such as make profession of faith in Christ but this is not the Church of which the Creed speaketh and to which our Sauiours promises apppertaine yea besides this Church there is the true Church of Christ whereof he is head whose bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member such as ouer many perhaps the greatest part of them that make profession of beleefe commonly are In a word the whole course of your Treatise failes in this point that whereas the word Church is diuersly taken you apply that to it in the generall meaning of the word which was spoken of it by our Sauiour the Prophets and Apostles in that speciall signification by which it containeth none but the elect To your proofe I answer farther First that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the verie nature of it doth not signifie The companie that is any certaine companie called but generally a company that is any such companie whatsoeuer Secondly I adde that the word is also sometimes taken for a companie whether called or not called as I haue hated the companie of the wicked Where the Prophet speaketh not of any companie called together but absolutely of the wicked howsoeuer assembled or not assembled Thirdly I say it is enough in respect of the nature and Etymology of the word that the Church be a companie of men called neither can it any way be enforced from the signification of it in Greeke that the Church must needs comprehend all that are in any sort called Indeed the elect onely may truly be said to be called in an especiall manner because they haue besides the outward sound of the preacher the inward voice of the spirit and are not onely called to beleeue the truth of the Gospell but also to beleeue truly in Iesus Christ to saluation This is your rereward with which you charge vs afresh and that as it were both with foote and horse First you throng together many places of Scripture as if your confidence were greater in your number then in vour valour Let vs encounter you That which is compared to a floare wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed To a mariage to which come good and bad To a net wherein are gathered all sorts of fishes good and bad To ten virgins whereof fiue were foolish and shut out from the coelestiall mariage consisteth not of the elect onely The Church is compared to such a floare marriage net virgins Therefore the Church consisteth not of the elect onely A verie hot assault but your bullets fall a great way short of the marke you do or should aime at For all you prooue by this reason is onely this that the Church taken for the whole companie of them that make profession of the Gospell consisteth not onely of the elect Who euer dreamed it did You are so farre from ouerturning our ground that you neuer once come neare it for all this braue shew
you make In particular I denie your Minor The Church we speake of is not compared to any such things The Church saith Austin which groweth in all natiōs is preserued in the lords wheat and shall be so preserued to the end till it haue taken possession of all yea euen the most barbarous nations The floare in Austins iudgement is not the Church but the place rather in which the Church is kept for that as he truly saith is the wheat And in the same Epistle he speaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables That is the Church saith Austin which swimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fishes from which in heart and behauiour it alwaies is separated Could any thing be spoken more direct The floare and the net are in a generall sense the Church but the true Church indeed is in the one the wheat not the chaffe in the other the good fishes that swimme among the naughtie ones I may also farther except against these Parables because they are otherwise applied then they are intended by our Sauiour who neuer meant by any one of them to teach that the Church consisteth not of the elect onely Who saith Austin can without great impudencie go about to prooue anything for his purpose by interpretation of any Allegorie vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies whereby those matters that are obscure in it be cleared This is your last charge to as small purpose as either of the former If there may be an incestuous person say you in the Church then it consisteth not onely of those that be good But there may be an incestuous person in the Church Therefore the Church consisteth not onely of those that be good It is apparent that by good you vnderstand those that cannot be charged with any grosse outward sinne as Incest or such like In which sense I say your conclusion is nothing to the purpose For we do not affirme that no man is of the Church which by any occasion falleth into some grieuous sinne so should we exclude Peter when he denied his master Dauid when he committed adulterie and murther Noe when he was drunke Abraham when he lied and many other who for all these sinnes held fast their faith in the Messiah and continued true members of Iesus Christ according to Gods election howsoeuer those sinnes of theirs deserued separation from Christ and damnation The Church may consist of some who for the present are in regard of some great sin not good and yet consist of the elect only as the former examples shew Farther I denie the consequence of your Maior It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church that is to be an outward professor and to be a true beleeuer And that the Church is the companie of the elect in the iudgement of the ancient writers these testimonies shew Ambrose maketh the Church the people whom God hath vouchsafed to adopt Whereas the Church saith Austin is so described in the Canticles that it is called a fenced garden my sister spouse a fountaine sealed vp a well of liuing water a paradise with fruite I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous The holy Church quoth Gregory is a garden because when it begets many to the faith it sends forth faire flowers like a good ground And it is well called a fenced garden because it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect If the spouse of Christ which is the Church be a fenced garden saith Cyprian being shut vp it cannot lie open to the prophane and strangers But what should I recite seuerall testimonies Looke Origen Bernard and other writers vpon the Canticles and you shall easily see that the spouse of Christ is the companie of the elect A. D. §. 8. Lastly the ancient Fathers did teach that the Church is visible Origen saith Ecclesia plena est fulgore ab oriente vsque ad occidentem The Church is full of brightnesse from the East to the West Ecclesia saith S. Cyprian Domini luce persusa radios suos per orbem spargit The Church being bright with the light of our Lord doth spread her beames throughout the world Facilius est saith S. Chrysostome solem extingui quà m Ecclesiam obscurari It is more easie that the Sunne should be extinguished then that the Church should be obscured that is to say darkened and quite without light Saint Augustine also alluding to or rather expounding those words of our Sauiour Non potest ciuitas abscondi supra montem posita saith Ecclesia supra montem constituta abscondi non potest The Church being built vpon a mountaine cannot be hid And againe in another place he saith Quid amplius dicturus sum quà m caecos qui tam magnum montem non vident qui contra lucernam in candelabro positam oculos claudunt What shall I say more but that they are blind who do not see so great a mountaine who shut their eyes at the candle set vpon the candlesticke A. W. These and such like speeches of the Fathers were vttered by them for the most part concerning the Church as it flourished in their dayes and not of the perpetuall estate therof from time to time Neither speake they properly of the Church which is indeed the spouse of our Sauiour the bridegroome but of the multitude of them who hold the truth of doctrine against all cauils and oppositions of hereticks amongst whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preserued Your reason then is little worth The Fathers say the Church is visible Therefore it is alwayes visible to all men The consequēce of your Enthymem is naught as wel because it might be visible in those times and not always as also for that it is not all one to say it is visible and it is visible to all men at all times Now to the particulars First I answer to Origens testimonie that he speakes not of the Churches visibilitie but affirmes that the truth which is the brightnesse or light he mentions is in the Churches euery where East and West That this is his meaning it is plaine by the beginning of that homily and the whole course of it to the very place you alledge Origen expounds there that place of the Gospell As the lightning cometh out of the East This exposition begins thus We must know saith Origen that the brightnesse of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture and cannot be defended by another but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture the Law the Prophets the Gospels and the Apostles writings And this truth arising from the East that is the beginnings of Christ shineth to the very time of his passion in which was his setting or fall A little after We
gesse by the words that you meant to refute all marks that euer were set downe by any Heretickes But if we should take your meaning in that sense your discourse would not answer our expectation Besides if all markes assigned by heretickes be naught yours cannot possibly be good which are brought by the grand hereticks of the world the vowed vassals of the great Antichrist the Pope of Rome A. D. §. 1. Out of that which in the former chapter I briefely noted about the nature of a good marke we may easily gather that those markes which some heretickes assigne to wit the true doctrine of faith and the right vse of the Sacraments are no good markes by which all sorts of men may come to know which is the true Church but are meanes as Heretickes vse them to cast a mist ouer the whole matter when as they know that they can most easily conuert all the Sacraments and holy words of Scripture Ad imagines phantasmatum suorum vnto their owne imaginations and phantasticall opinions as out of Saint Austin we may gather that the manner of heretickes is especially when the authoritie of the Church which should correct those deprauations and false expositions is not first by other markes knowen and admitted A. W. You would seeme to haue an especiall gift of making things easie by your markes the Church may easily be discerned out of the former Chapter we may easily gather But I thinke it wil prooue to be so easily gathered that a weake man may easily make you lose your labour in gathering That place of Austin doth so fit you Papists as if he had spoken it of you by name For to go no farther then the matter in hand who euer wrested the Scriptures more to their phantasies then you Papists who are not ashamed nor afraid to apply the most gracious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour Christ to his mystical bodie the Church to an heape of prophane misbeleeuers so they make outward profession of the Gospel in obedience to the Pope of Rome It is enough by your doctrine to make a man a true member of the mysticall bodie of the Sonne of God if he professe as I before said though he haue no part of the life of Iesus Christ in him A. D. §. 2. The doctrine of faith therefore I say and the right vse of Sacraments be not good markes whereby men may discerne which is the true Church This I prooue First for that by the true doctrine of faith which they assigne for a marke of the Church either they meane true doctrine in some points onely or in all True doctrine in some points onely is no good marke because the heretickes teach the truth in some points This therefore being not proper to the Church but agreeing rather to heretickes can be no good marke of the true Church because it wanteth the first condition of a marke which is to be proper and agreeing onely to the thing whereof it is a marke True doctrine also in all points although it be proper if we ioyne to it the right vse of Sacraments with obedience to lawfull Pastors and agree onely to the true Church yet it is no good marke because it faileth in the second condition which is requred in a good marke that is to say it is not apparent or easie to be knowen of all those who should seeke out the true Church As I may easily prooue because to know which companie teacheth the truth in all points requireth first learning whereby one may vnderstand the tearmes and state of the question or controuersie besides iudgement to discusse and weigh prudently the worth and sufficiencie of the authorities and reasons of both parts that vpon this pondering of reasons he may prudently conclude which is the better part Moreouer one had need to haue a supernaturall light of Gods grace and assistance of his spirit whereby he may discerne and see those things which be aboue all naturall rules and reasons Ad haec quis idoneus Who can say that himselfe is sufficiently furnished with these helpes Who can be infallibly sure that he hath all these in such sort as is requisite for obtaining by his owne industrie true and infallible faith in all points Surely at least the vnlearned must needs confesse that in diuers mysteries they do not so much as vnderstand the tearmes state of the question much lesse are they able to examine sufficiētly the worth of euery reason neither are all such as can perswade themselues that they are singularly inlightened and immediately taught of Gods spirit neither if they did thus perswade themselues could they be vnfallibly sure that in this their perswasion they were not deceiued sith it is certaine that some of them that most strongly perswade themselues to be thus taught are in this their perswasion deceiued neither can the vnlearned sufficiently know the truth in euerie particular point by giuing credit to some one or other learned man or any companie of the learned vnlesse that company be first knowen to be of the Church and consequently to be guided in their teaching by the holy Ghost as I prooued before So that it is most hard or rather vnpossible for a man and especially for an vnlearned man in all points Liquidam à tot erroribus discernere veritatem to discerne the plaine truth from so many errours as S. Austin saith It is also most hard for a man of himselfe to iudge which vse of Sacraments is right if he be not first taught by the Church sub this is a principall point of the true doctrine of faith which is as I said verie hard or rather vnpossible to be perfectly knowen by a mans owne selfe But to know first which companie is the true Church and then by giuing credit to it to learne which is the true faith and which vse of Sacraments is right there are not so many things required nor any great difficultie as shall be declared For the Church is that direct way which Isaias speaketh of when he saith Haec erit vobis directa via ita vt stulti non errent per eam This shall be to you a direct way so that euen fooles to wit simple and vnlearned men may not erre in it A. W. These are the two onely marks whereby the true Church may be knowen or to speake more plainely whereby we may iudge of any companie of men professing Christian Religion whether they be a true Church of Christ or no. For the better vnderstanding whereof we must know that howsoeuer we ioyne the Sacraments with the word in this matter yet we do not thinke them to be absolutely of equall necessitie with it to the being of a true Church The true preaching of the word is so simply necessarie that whersoeuer it is it maketh the Church in which it is a true Church of Christ and whersoeuer it is not there is no true visible Church We denie not
that in time of persecution many true Christians may be without opportunitie of meeting together for the true worship of God in hearing his word and calling vpon his name which alwaies accompanieth true preaching and yet still continue true members of Christs mysticall bodie the Church But we say that these men cannot be truly called such a visible Church of Christ as we now seeke for Yet if these men shall ordinarily assemble themselues together to offer vp praier to God and by mutuall conference to edifie each other in knowledge and obedience thogh they haue no certaine minister appointed for the performance of these duties there can no reason be alledgd why they should not be held for a true Church though not perfect complete or why men should not ioine with them hauing no means to become members of any complete congregation properly being a Church The word then in our opinion is simply necessarie and of it selfe sufficient as Luther truly saith where no other signe of a Church can be discerned to conuince a mans conscience that there is a true Church where he findeth the word truly preached Now the administration of the Sacraments is not so necessarie but that there may be a true Church without it vpon occasion as the Iewes had no circumcision amongst them all the fortie yeares when they trauelled through the wildernesse The reason of this difference is assigned to be this that the word is as it were the cause efficient of the Church so that without it there can be no Church but the Sacraments are only seals of Gods mercies and helps for the increasing of those graces which are receiued by the ministerie of the word Now these seales and helpes are not requisite simply to the being of that they seale helpe vs in but onely to the better being and increase of them But if I may be bold with reuerence of other mens iudgement to speake my poore opinion I think this reason sheweth the different necessitie of the word and the Sacraments rather to the making of particular men true Christians thē to the giuing of this or that companie the true being of a visible Church And therefore vnder correction I would rather say that the truth of doctrine deliuered in the ministery of the word and praier are absolutely necessary the administration of the Sacraments not so altogether because the former are such parts of Gods seruice as may and must alwaies be performed when the Church is assembled but the Sacraments neither can alwaies nor need at all such meetings to be administred Which we speake not as if the true vse of the Sacraments were not a necessarie part of Gods seruice to be done vpon all opportunities with reuerence and willingnesse but for that as before I noted there cannot be at all times such opportunitie Yea it may fall out that in some true Church of Christ there shall be no occasion to administer the Sacrament of Baptisme in many yeares This then is that which we hold concerning the markes of a true Church First that wheresoeuer we see the word of God truly taught and the Sacraments truly administred there we may be sure there is a true Church of Christ Secondly that wheresoeuer the former of these is wanting there is no true Church whatsoeuer shew or marke otherwise there be Thirdly that wheresoeuer the word of God is truly preached and accordingly professed there is a true Church though the Sacraments vpon occasion as is aforesaid be not there administred so that they be not neglected vpon any contempt or erroneous conceit of their not being necessarie To disprooue our doctrine concerning the markes of the or rather of a Church you bring this reason If true doctrine be a marke of a true Church then either true doctrine in some pointes or true doctrine in all But neither true doctrine in some points nor true doctrine in all is a marke Therefore true Doctrine is not at all a marke of a true Church I denie you Minor True doctrine in all points is so certaine a marke of a true Church that wheresoeuer we finde that we may be sure there is a true Church But because we enquire after such a marke as may not onely assure vs which is a true Church but also teach vs to know euerie true Church I answer more particularly that true doctrine in some pointes viz. such as are fundamentall is so necessarie a marke as that there is no where any true Church but where there is such true doctrine and that there is vndoubtedly a true Church wheresoeuer that truth is taught and held Your Minor you prooue thus first that true doctrine in some points is no good marke That which is not proper to the true Church but agrees rather to heretickes is no good marke of the true Church But true doctrine in some points onely is not proper to the true Church but agreeth rather to heretickes Therefore true doctrine in some points onely is no good marke of the true Church Againe I denie your minor taking it in the best sense for if I should take it in the worst your whole syllogisme would be nothing to the purpose My answer shall I trust make both these points plaine to euery man I say then that true doctrine in all the fundamentall points of religion is proper to the Church so that no hereticks hold all such points though some haue held many of them Or if any companie do hold them all and yet for some error in other points of lesse moment be counted and be hereticall their heresie is not such as may make them cease to be members of a true Church Thus much of your assumption in the best sense By true doctrine in some points onely you may meane that it is not a propertie belonging to the true Church to beleeue truly some points onely and not all and this indeed is rather proper to heretickes then the true Church because it is the dutie of all true Churches to beleeue all things that the Lord hath taught in the holy Scriptures whereas hereticks take vp conceits of their owne which they mingle with the truth of God either ignorantly or deceitfully I haue reason to suspect this meaning because you thrust in this word onely In this sense your conclusion fighteth with a shadow For we do not make it a marke of a true Church to beleeue some points onely but say it may be and is a true Church though it erre in some points so it hold the fundamentall points soundly and truly This is the proofe of the second part of your minor that true doctrine in all points is not a good marke of the true Church and it is thus concluded Euery good marke of the true Church is apparent or easie to be knowne of all those who should seeke out the true Church But true doctrine in all points is not apparent or easie to be known of
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
of the Church so that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainely know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it is not a good marke to know the true Church by But true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it Therefore true doctrine is no good marke to know the true Church by Your Minor is false in both parts of it First it is vntrue that true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church yea many a true Church may hold some errors and many an hereticall Church some truth onely the fundamentall points are necessarie to the being of a true Church Secondly though true doctrine be in the belly of the Church as indeed there is no true Church in which it is not yet is it not so shut vp in it as you imagine For it is first and principally in the Scriptures where it may be found without any such authoritie of the Church as you dreame of yea I haue shewed that the Apostles themselues did not beget faith in the hearts of them to whom they preached by any authoritie of the Church but by euidence of the truth it selfe which they taught Concerning your proofe from Austins authoritie I first answer that he expoundeth not that place according to the literal meaning of the Prophet who speaketh not of any belly of the Church but saith that those lewd men of whom he speaketh haue alwaies bene giuen to naughtinesse from their mothers wombe These wicked ones saith Vatablus haue gone astray euer since they came forth of the womb they they haue erred euer since they were borne Yea Austin himselfe as your Glosse saith sometimes expoundeth it otherwise then here God saith Austin foreknew sinners euen from the wombe as he said to Rebecca So doth Ierome also vnderstand it so Theodoret. But let vs take it as Saint Austin doth here mystically expound it what will you prooue by it That truth is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she deliuer it by her mouth There is no such word in him no such thing to be gathered out of him His conclusion is that therefore they which differ from the true Church in doctrine are in error which is certainly true concerning fundamentall points and verie probable in all other points whatsoeuer The other part of your Minor is that true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it For the disproouing whereof it shall be sufficient to call to minde that which I haue often answered concerning those who beleeued by the Apostles ministerie without any consideration or thought of their being sent by the true Church but onely being conuinced by the manifest truth of that which they deliuered concerning forgiuenesse of sinne by our Sauiour Iesus Christ Your proofe out of Austin is insufficient as it may appeare in this sort If Austin say that he should not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse he were mooued by the authoritie of the Church then true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it But Austin saith so Therefore true doctrine is so shut vp in the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it I denie the consequence of your Maior First because as Austin himselfe saith of Cyprian we are not bound by the authoritie of Austins iudgement as if his writings were Canonicall We do Cyprian no wrong saith Austin when we distinguish his writings whatsoeuer they be from the Canonicall authoritie of the diuine Scriptures And againe I take not Cyprians writings for Canonicall but consider of them according to the Canonicall and allow of that with his commendation which agreeth to Scripture but by his leaue refuse that which disagreeth from Scripture This minde carried Austin to other mens writings this minde he desired other men should carrie to his Secondly I denie the same consequence because Austin might be mooued by the authoritie of the Church to acknowledge the Gospell for true and yet without the same authoritie learne out of the Gospell so acknowledged which is true doctrine which false Concerning Austins testimonie first it is manifest that he deliuereth not a rule for all men to follow as if by should not beleeue he meant that a man ought not to beleeue the Gospell nor sheweth an impossibilitie of beleeuing it vnlesse a man be moued by the authoritie of the Church but at the most declareth that the authoritie of the Church preuailed with him so farre as to make him acknowledge the Gospell for true which else he had either not knowne or doubted of Secondly it is obserued according to the rest of his writings that the Latine word he vseth in the African dialect signifieth Had not beleeued so that the sense is I had not beleeued the Gospell as the truth of God if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me thereunto The first motiue was the authoritie that is the learning consent holinesse of so many worthie men as from time to time had held and did hold the Gospell to be the truth of God Vpon this ground Austin gaue himselfe to the studie of the Scriptures and by the euidence of truth deliuered in it discerned that it was the word of God according to the report and reputation commonly held of it This sense agreeth with Austins purpose who to refute the Manichees that tooke their master Manes for the Apostle of Christ thus reasoneth against them I beleeue not saith Austin that he is Christs Apostle and then demaundeth of the Manichee what course he would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith he you will read the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manichaeus person out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell Then follow the words alledged by you I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me This is yet more cleare by that which Austin writeth afterward First saith he we beleeue that which yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we do beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming enlightening our minde within But howsoeuer we vnderstand it Austin speaketh not of true doctrine shut vp in the Church so that it cannot be knowne to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie which is the point in question but onely of acknowledging the Gospell to be the word
of God Now the same Church or partie which assureth vs that the Gospell is true may notwithstanding erre in the meaning of some points in it and a man may discerne these errours by the light which shineth in the Scriptures thus acknowledged First it is here confessed by your selfe that Austins speach is not of all fundamentall points of true doctrine but onely as I said of knowing the Scripture to be the word of God for so onely you reason out of it and thereby shew plainly to all that will see that it cannot prooue the matter for which you brought it Secondly you proceed farther to prooue the point by an other reason but faultie like the former If say you without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell at all nor haue knowne that the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas then we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it But we could not haue knowne those things without the testimonie of the Church Therefore we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it A man that is so full of his compound syllogismes as you are might learne to make better consequences in his Maior then you commonly bring vs. Let vs grant you that we could not know that there is any Gospell or which is the Gospell without the testimonie of the Church All that will follow thereupon is this that we cannot know these two points of doctrine to be true without giuing credit to the testimonie of the Church Yea if I were disposed to trouble you I would yet farther denie your said consequence because though we cannot know these matters without the Churches testimonie yet we might know them without resting vpon the Churches authoritie For the testimonie of the Church may be had by the ministerie thereof without any such absolute authoritie of enioyning beleefe or giuing credit to that she affirmeth as an vndoubted truth This Minor as the former in this chapter consisteth of two parts and is false in both of them as I will shew particularly First you say that without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell Your meaning is that we could not haue knowne this certainely but by giuing credit to the report of the Church as a certaine truth First for the doctrine of the Gospell to saluation it hath bene had and may be had without any testimonie of the Church at all taking the testimonie of the Church as you do for the preaching of men publickly authorised to this dutie by a companie of men so qualified as you before describe your Church I shall need no better proofe then to put you in minde againe of those nations many and great who attained to faith and saluation by the teaching of the Apostles seuerally without any such argument of the Churches absolute authority Secondly taking the Gospell for the 4. bookes of the Euangelists I answer that there may be true faith true Churches without the knowledge of those bookes yea without the verie being of them as it is manifest by the former example many thousands being conuerted and many Churches setled without the knowledge and before the publishing or penning of them But to come to the verie point I answer further that it is a grosse absurditie to make men beleeue that there can be no certaine knowledge had that there is any Gospell but by giuing credit to the Church whereas no man can know that there is any such authoritie in the Church or any Church at all but by the authoritie of the Scripture It is more then ridiculous for me to beleeue that there is a companie of men infallibly taught of God which is the truth with authority to enioyne obedience to all men in whatsoeuer they will teach if I haue no better proofe of it then their owne word For since God hath indued man with reason it is both simplenesse and sinne for him to beleeue that which is vtterly against the light of reason if he haue no warrant from God so to do But warrant he can haue none to beleeue such a conceit of any company but from the scriptures as it is euident by your own course who make a place of scripture the ground of your whole disputation Therefore whereas you teach men first to know the Church and then by the Church the Scriptures we say this course is vtterly vnwarrantable hauing no foundation either in reason or reuelation Yea contrariwise we truly affirme that the Scripture must first be knowne at the least in that point of the authoritie of the Church and then the Church by the Scripture And this is Austins iudgement directly Let vs not heare saith he this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord. There are the Lords bookes to the authoritie of which both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs yeeld obedience there let vs seek the Church there let vs discusse our question And afterward I will not haue the Church to be shewed by mens doctrines but by the Oracles of God And againe Let vs seeke the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures The like speeches are euerie where in that booke Whether we be schismaticks or you saith the same Austin let neither you nor me but Christ be asked that he may shew vs his Church But where shall we know what our Sauiour saith concerning his Church and how he would haue it knowne but in the Scriptures Yet I denie not that the ministerie of men is necessarie to giue notice that there are certaine bookes in which it hath pleased God to reueale the meanes of saluation to mankinde though I acknowledge not any authority in the Church whereby men should be bound to beleeue this their report when as yet they are ignorant that there is any such Church You will say then what shall we doe or how shall we know that there is any Gospell If you will giue me leaue I will shew you what course is to be takē When you vnderstand that there hath bin and is still an opinion that there are certaine bookes written by Gods authoritie and appointment to teach men the way to saluation do as any reasonable man would do in a matter of such importance Get the bookes reade and studie them with a true desire to see whether they be such as they are reported to be or no. And because thou knowest by nature that there is a God and that he onely is all-sufficient to discouer the truth of his owne purpose touching the estate of his creature call vpon him though in ignorance and weaknesse that it would please him to direct thee in this enquiry after the means of thy saluation
or happinesse This done thou shalt be sure to find by the euidence of truth manifested in those bookes that they are sent from God and not deuised by man If thou liue in such a place as affoordeth the interpretation of these bookes by the ministery of men vse that singular blessing of God with reuerence and care to vnderstand and thou shalt by the mercifull teaching of God acknowledge these books to be the word of God ordained for the saluation of thy selfe and other This will some man say may perhaps breed a perswasion that these bookes are from God but how shall we come to be infallibly sure of it How else but by the worke of the spirit of God in thy heart What say you must we runne to reuelations Who knowes the secrets of God but the spirit of God The truth it selfe discerned by that light which the spirit kindleth in our hearts worketh assurance of beleefe to which the testimonie of the spirit is added for our further confirmation Neither is this any other reuelation then you Papists require in this case For according to your doctrine no man can be perswaded infallibly of the truth of the Scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall teaching of the spirit otherwise he hath not faith but opinion of these matters Onely herein stands the difference betwixt vs that you say the argument whereby the spirit perswades vs to acknowledge the Scripture is the authoritie of the Church we affirme it is the euidence of truth which he makes vs to discerne by our vnderstanding enlightened and to approue by our will thereto inclined through his mightie and gracious worke vpon our soules The second part of your minor is that we could not haue knowne the Gospels of the foure Euangelists to be canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Thomas if we had not the testimonie of the Church Of the falsnesse of which opinion I shall need to say little because it is refuted in my answer to the former part For this knowledge is not bred in vs by resting vpon the Churches authoritie but by yeelding to the euidence of the truth discouered to our hearts by the teaching of the holy Ghost Concerning the authoritie of the Church in this point it were a presumptuous and vnreasonable thing for any man without very good proof or great likelihood of reason to deny or doubt of that which hath bin auouched so many yeares by the whole Christian world But to make question of the bookes of Scripture whether they be the word of God or no and to denie that there is any meanes to know them for such but the authoritie of the Church is the next way to open a gap to Atheisme to lay open Religion to the scorne of the world Can I not know the Scripture to be of God but by the authoritie of the Church How shal I then know it at all since it is not reasonable to beleeue there is any Church that hath such authoritie but by the warrant of the Scripture They do all they can to turne reasonable creatures into beasts who teach vs that we must beleeue the Church cannot erre because the Scripture saith so and yet denie that we can know there is any Scripture but by beleeuing it because the Church saith so This is to dance in a circle as if a man were coniured that he could not get out of it How shall I know there is a Church by the Scripture How shall I know there are any Scriptures by the Church Would your proud Clergie thus make fooles of Christian men if they did not despise them as voyd of all reason I wonder how your Pope Cardinals Bishops and the rest of your Cleargie can for beare laughing when they looke one vpon another and remember how they cosen and if I may vse the word in a matter of such importance gull the world with such palpable fooleries But your strumpet of Babylon hath made the Kings of the earth and all nations drunke with the cup of her fornications exalting her selfe aboue all that is called God and making her selfe the God of her slauish vassals But the Lord is iust who according to the Apostles prophefie hath sent the world strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And certainly if there were not a great measure of 12. blindnesse and sottishnesse in the hearts of men that Gods purpose might take effect it were vnpossible that reasonable men should so be lead by the nose to errour and destruction A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke whereby to know the true Church then contrarie to that which hath bin proued the authoritie of the Church should not be a necessarie meanes whereby men must come to the knowledge of the true faith For if before we come to know which is the true Church we must by an other meanes haue knowne which is the true faith what need then is there for getting true faith already had to seeke or bring in the authoritie of the same Church A. W. This fourth reason and the next labour to proue that part of your first assumptiō in this Chapter which we deny not that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is not a good marke of the Church It would therefore be but lost labour to spend much time in the examining of them yet somewhat I must say and first to the former If the true doctrine of faith in all particular points must be foreknowne as a marke to know the true Church by then is not the autoritie of the true Church a necessary meanes to know the true doctrine of faith by But the authoritie of the true Church is a necessary meanes to know the true faith by Therefore the true doctrine of faith must not be foreknowne in all particular points as a marke to know the true Church by Your conclusion is no more then we grant the consequence of your maior about which you take some paines needs not your helpe for the proofe of it Your minor is false That which you brought before to prooue it before was answered A. D. §. 6. Fiftly if before we giue absolute and vndoubted credit to the true Church we must examine and iudge whether euery particular point of doctrine which it holdeth be the truth with authoritie to accept that onely which we like or which seemeth in our conceit right and conformable to Scripture and to reiect whatsoeuer we mislike or which in our priuate iudgement seemeth not so right and conformable then we make our selues examiners and iudges ouer the church and consequently we preferre our liking or disliking our iudgement and censure of the interpretation and sense of Scripture before the iudgement and censure of the
Church of God But it is absurd both in reason and religion to preferre the iudgement of any priuate man be he neuer so wittie and learned or neuer so strongly perswaded in his owne minde that he is taught by the Spirit before the iudgement and definitiue sentence of the Church of God the which is a companie of men many of which both are and alwayes haue bene vertuous wise and learned and which is chiefe is such a companie as according to the absolute and infallible promises of our Sauiour hath vndoubtedly the holy spirit among them guiding them and teaching them all truth and not permitting them to erre as before hath bin proued A. W. There is the same fault in this fift argument which was in the former that it is brought to proue a proposition which we denie not If before we giue absolute credit to the Church we must iudge whether euery particular point it holdeth be true or no then we may make our selues iudges ouer the true Church But we may not make our selues iudges ouer the true Church Therefore we must not iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no before we giue absolute credit to the Church This conclusion supposeth that which can neuer be proued that we are first or last to giue absolute credit to the Church whereof in this Chapter there is no question The point you vndertake to disproue is that the true doctrine of faith in euery particular point is a good marke of a true Church This therfore you should haue concluded though indeed it make nothing against our opinion who require not for a marke of the true Church truth of doctrine in euery point but in all points fundamentall Your proposition is deceitfully propounded as if we granted a companie to be the true Church and yet would take vpon vs to receiue and reiect what we list whereas we hold that we cannot acknowledge any true Church but we must withall yeeld that it maintaineth all substantiall points of Religion from which we may not vary Secondly for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church is to take authoritie vpon him to censure reproue and condemne the Church wheras all that we desire is that it may be free for vs to discerne that the doctrine held by this or that Church is agreeable to the Scriptures before we acknowledge it to be a true Church It is meere absurd and vnreasonable to prefer any priuate mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of the church of God But it is agreeable both to reason and Religion that euery priuate man whose saluation lieth vpon his true or false beleeuing should consider whether that which he is enioyned by men to beleeue be warrantable by the word of God or no. The Scribes and Pharises were the leaders of the people in the matters of Religion yet were they blinde guides and the blind people by depending vpon their iudgement were caried headlong into the same pit of destruction with them Were not the men of Beroea commended by the holy Ghost for searching the Scriptures that they might see whether the doctrine deliuered by Paul were agreeable thereto or no And yet shall it be a fault in vs to enquire of the same Scripture concerning the doctrine of your Apostaticall synagogue I say farther it is against reason and Religion to prefer any one mans iudgement before the definitiue sentence of many wise vertuous and learned men such as the Church hath vsually some amongst the members thereof But it is most reasonable and religious to prefer the truth of God manifested by one simple man before the contrary determination of all that euer haue bin or shal be of the Church though neuer so wise vertuous and learned This is that which we teach concerning this matter First that no man is bound to take any thing for a matter of faith but that which is proued to him by the Scriptures the rule of faith Secondly that no man is to condemne any thing held by the Church vnlesse he haue euident proofe on his side out of the Scriptures Thirdly that euery man in matters not determinable by Scripture none of which are necessarie to saluation should yeeld to the iudgement of the Church whereof he is a member and euery Church to the iudgement of the Christian Churches other where vnlesse there be some good reason to the contrary It is very possible for wise vertuous and learned men to erre for your priuiledge of not erring hath bin found to be counterfait who oftentimes follow the opinion of some one man whose learning and pietie they cannot chuse but admire Domingo à Soto affoords vs an example of this matter where hauing alledged a sentence out of Austin he addeth these words By reason of this saying of Austin quoth Soto all the Fathers afterward and the whole multitude of Diuines haue by good right deliuered it as a truth that the glorious Virgin neuer committed any actuall sinne though Chrysostome auncienter then he were of another opinion Let it be then vnlawfull as it is for a priuate man to prefer his owne opinion before the iudgement of a whole Church and in this sense I graunt your minor yet is it not vnlawfull for him to examine what any or all Churches teach or to dissent from it if he haue the Scripture for his warrant A. D. §. 7. But you may perhaps say that in Scripture we are willed not to beleeue euery priuate spirit but to trie spirits whether they be of God or no and that therefore we must examine and trie the spirit of the Church by looking into euery particular point of doctrine which it teacheth I answer that in that place of Scripture it is not meant that it belongeth to euery particular man to trie all spirits but in generall the Scripture giueth the Church warning not to accept euery one that boasteth himselfe to haue the Spirit and willeth that they should trie those spirits not that euery simple or priuate man should take vpon him to trie them but that those of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine to wit the Doctors and Pastors which Almightie God hath put in his Church of purpose Vt non circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be caried away with euery wind of doctrine and Vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes that we may not be little ones wauering with euerie blast of those that boast themselues to be singularly taught by the spirit So that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no and then also this triall belongeth to the Pastors of the true church But when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither neede nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it but submitting obediently the iudgement of our owne sense
and reason we must beleeue the teaching of it in euery point Now it is most certaine that the spirit of the true visible Church is of God as out of holy Scripture hath bene most euidently prooued And therefore our onely care should be to seeke out those markes by which all men may know which particular companie of men is the true Church of Christ whose doctrine we neither need nor lawfully may examine and trie in doubtfull manner but must obediently and vndoubtfully in all points beleeue as the onely assured and infallible truth A. W. For the better strengthening of your minor you assay to make and answer an argument which our Diuines vse to alledge against it and this it is They that are willed in Scripture not to beleeue euery spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. But euery Christian is willed in Scripture not to beleeue euerie spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. Therefore euery Christian may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. The Assumption of this Syllogisme we proue by that place of Iohn Dearly beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they are of God To this our proofe you answer two wayes First concerning the spirits to be tried then concerning them that are to make triall Of the former your answer is that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no. First this answer cannot be warranted by the text which is generall Trie the spirits that is all spirits that come to preach vnto you if we apply it to the teachers rather then to the doctrine they deliuer And surely if the Apostle had meant as you expound him he would not haue said Trie the spirits but trie some of them Beleeue not euery spirit but trie those of which you may well doubt but he saith generally the spirits Secondly what may we imagine to be a cause of doubting If want of lawfull sending which is the great point you alwayes vrge either we must know the spirits we may doubt of to be vnlawfully sent and then by your doctrine we must vtterly reiect them without any farther triall or else the triall we are to make if we doubt is whether they be lawfully sent or no for till that appeare we may not heare them But our Apostle appointeth vs to make triall by their doctrine Thirdly the reason and end of this exhortation is that we might take heede of false Prophets and false Apostles which were crept into the Church Many false Prophets were stirred vp by the diuell faining that they had Apostolicall doctrine to deliuer Therefore saith Didymus the gift of discerning spirits is necessary Now these false apostles were not such as came without any calling for the diuell must needs haue knowne if he had bene then acquainted with your doctrine that it was not possible for him to preuaile by men not authorised by the Church but as the Apostle teacheth vs they were such as had gone frō amongst the true Christiās not by schisme in refusing communion with them so much as by heresie in departing from the truth of doctrine in maine points of religion Fourthly false teachers do so nearely resemble true and come many times with such shew of holinesse that a man cannot tell whom he should trust or suspect but as he findes his doctrine to be sutable or contrarie to the word of God Therefore Ferus a writer of your owne and one of no meane account vnderstandeth by spirit doctrine The Apostle warnes vs saith Ferus that we beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine and perswasion To which purpose he alledgeth also that of Saint Paul Trie all things hold fast that which is good alledged by Thomas in the same matter To make this your answer the more likely you tell vs that when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither need nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it as if we thought any such doubtfull or presumptuous course lawfull Yet in this case there is a difference to be obserued If we know the preacher to be sent of God in such sort as the Apostles were that he cannot erre then euery least doubt of that which he deliuereth is presumption and sinne But otherwise though it appeare to vs that he be authorised by God we may safely take liberty to examine whatsoeuer he teacheth without any presumption to iudge or needlesse doubting of that he deliuereth In a word if we heare such a man it is our dutie not to suspect his doctrine but where we haue some good apparence of Scripture for our suspicion In which case we are to search the word of God and to open our doubts to him that we may be satisfied If the matter be such as we cannot clearely prooue to be false by Scripture we are with all reuerence and humilitie to suspect our owne iudgement rather then his whom God hath appointed and authorised to be our teacher so farre must we be from presumption Your second exception is against them that are to trie the spirits who are not say you euerie simple or priuate man but the Pastors of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine as being put by God in his Church of purpose that we may not be carried away with euerie winde of doctrine That this exhortation belongeth to all Christians it may appeare by these reasons First we haue the like generall admonitions in other places of Scripture to all Christians not onely to Pastors and Doctors Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour to all men which come to you in sheeps cloathing Trie all things saith the Apostle and hold fast that which is good which latter place as before I noted is brought by Thomas of Aquin and Ferus to expound this text of Saint Iohn Secondly the whole Epistle is written to all in generall without any particular instruction or exhortation to this or that kinde of Christians as teachers learners masters seruants or such like Thirdly it is the course of the Apostles where they descend from generals to particulars to giue some speciall notice of that change by naming seuerally the estates to which they speake and not continuing onely the common titles of beloued or brethren as the Apostle in this place doth Fourthly himselfe professeth that his Epistle is written in generall to all men yea euen to young men and babes in Christ Neither doth he in this exhortation restraine his words to them that are teachers Fiftly if it be not lawfull for priuate men to trie the spirits then are they to receiue whatsoeuer is taught by any particular Doctor or Pastor and so be bound to beleeue meere
contradictions if it fall out as sometimes it doth that one man preach contrarie to that which an other hath taught Sixtly the Lord hath imparted the scriptures and enioyned the search of them as well to priuate men as to Pastors and Doctors Seuenthly and last blinde people shall perish euerlastingly with their blinde guides and therefore it cannot be but that God hath giuen them libertie to trie the spirits that they that will not may haue no excuse for their erring but be iustly damned The place you bring out of the epistle to the Ephesians doth not prooue that Pastors Doctors only are to examine spirits though this belong in speciall sort to them whom the holy Ghost hath made ouerseers of the flocke of Christ Gods end in appointing them is that we should not be carried away with euery blast of doctrine but we must needs be so carried if we receiue without choise whatsoeuer is deliuered They are helpers of our faith not Lords ouer it Their dutie it is to teach vs how to discerne of true doctrine and to perswade vs to embrace it not to enforce vs to giue credit to all they say Thus haue I answered all those arguments that you thought good to propound all which notwithstanding our conclusion standeth sound and firme that true doctrine in points fundamentall is a certaine and necessarie marke of a true Church of Christ A. D. CHAP. XV. That these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica that is to say One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke are good markes by which men may know which is the true Church A. W. The second maine part of your whole treatise is this that they which professe the Romane faith are the true Church Your proofe is that To them onely the certaine markes whereby the Church is to be knowne belong Which that you might make cleare vnto vs you reason in this sort They onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But they onely that professe the Romane Religion are they who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane Religion are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong The Maior of this syllogisme you seeke to prooue in this Chapter by shewing that these properties are good markes to know the true Church by Now properties if we shall speake properly according to Logicke are Accidents or Adiuncts agreeing to euery particular of that kinde wherof they are properties and that alwaies neuer at any time to any thing of any other kind Therefore the properties of a true Church must be such as agree to euerie true Church at all times at no time to any other Church or thing but to a true Church only These the Logicians call Propria adiuncta or propria quarto modo Whether these foure alledged by you be such or no taking thē according to your sense we shal see in examining your proofe That in some sense they are certaine markes of a true Church we make no question A. D. §. 1. Sith our Sauiour Christ hath thought good to plant a visible Church vpon earth which he would haue to continue vntill the worlds end for this speciall intent and purpose that all men in all ages by meanes of it may learne the doctrine of the true faith the true worship of God the right vse of the Sacraments the wholsome lawes of good life and generally all good things that appertaine to the glorie of God and the saluation of our soules we haue not any reason to doubt but that the same our Sauiour for the exceeding loue which of his part without exception or respect of persons he beareth to all mankind hath ordained some markes or notes by which all sorts and consequently euen simple men may sufficiently discerne which companie among many which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church is indeed the true Church For sith he would haue euerie one to heare and learne things necessarie to saluation onely of the true Church we must needs thinke his wisedome and goodnesse to haue marked this his Church with such manifest signes and properties that all men may easily know it and discerne it from others whom he knew would take vpon them though falsely the title and profession of the true Church This seemeth to haue bene expresly foretold by the prophet Isaias when he saith Scietur in gentibus semē eorum germen eorum in medio populorū Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quia isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus Their seed shall be knowne in the nations and their of spring in the midst of the people all that shall see thē shall know them because these are that seed which our Lord hath blessed Which is as much as if he should say that the Church shall haue such manifest markes that it shall be easie for euerie one to know them to be the true Church Some of these markes are set downe by Saint Austin who calleth them bands or chaines which do hold a faithfull man in the Catholicke Church although for the slownesse of his wit or for some other cause he doth not euidently see the truth of the doctrine in it selfe A. W. Ere you come to prooue that which you haue propounded you fall into an vnnecessary discourse about the marks of the Church wherein first you prooue as you can that our Sauiour hath left certaine markes whereby all men in all ages may know the true Church Secondly you set downe some names of these markes giuen them according to the effects they worke in men The proofe of your former point lieth thus If our Sauior haue planted a visible Church vpon earth to the end that all mē in all ages might learne of it only all good things appertaining to the glory of God their own saluatiō thē he hath ordained marks by which euery mā may know the true Church But our Sauiour hath to that end planted a visible Church Therfore he hath giuē marks by which euery mā may know c. Though there be nothing in this proofe which hath not bene answered already yet I mull be faine to say something to it I denie the Minor hauing shewed in answer to the fift chapter that it neuer was Gods purpose to haue euery particular man partaker of saluatiō by Iesus Christ Now it is needlesse to adde that our Sauiour being sent by God with perfect knowledge of his purpose would not intend any thing contrarie to the will of his Father or otherwise then he was directed by his commission I pray not for the world but for them that thou hast giuen me out of the world All this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace Therefore visible Churches for to dreame of any one vniuersall visible Church is against
reason not only against Scripture were ordained properly as the ministery of the word the seruice of Angels for their sakes that are to be saued according to the election of God Secondly and as it were accidentally for the hardening of them that will not beleeue to leaue them without excuse To make your matter the more likely you tell vs of our Sauiours loue to mankind which in your diuinity is without exception or respect of persons How then can it sute with the purpose of God his Father who hath chosen some to glory refused other meerly of his owne iust will without respect of difference in the parties so chosen refused As for I that loue of mankind wherupon some men conclude that either all or the greatest part of men are loued by God to eternal life it is not to be vnderstood by comparison of men to men but partly of men to the Angels that fell in which respect the Apostle amplifies the mercy of God to vs He tooke not the Angels but he tooke the seed of Abraham partly of men to all other creatures none of which besides man is vouchsafed the honour to be ioyned in vnity of person with the Sonne of God and so to be made heire of euerlasting glory It is needlesse to repeat what I answered before to this place of Isay onely I will say thus much of your exposition that though all that see the Church may know it yet it doth not follow that therefore all men may see it which you make the end of planting a visible Church that euerie man may learne how to be saued We denie not that the markes of the Church are such as that any man who hath the meanes and will vse them with conscience and diligence may come by the grace of God to the acknowledging of it and by the ministerie of it to saluation Such is the truth of doctrine wherein euerie man may be instructed who will submit his reason to the euidence of truth conteined in the holy Scriptures and not wilfully resist or carelesly neglect the worke of the spirit in the ministerie of the word The bands and chaines Austin speaketh of are not said to draw a man out of the world vnto the Church but to hold him in it that is in already And surely he were vnreasonably absurd that being borne in the profession of Christianitie or by any other occasion brought to ioyne himselfe vnto this or that Church would not cōtinue his beleefe vpon those groūds that Austin there mentions as long as there could be no sufficiēt reason brought to the contrarie yea though he could not discerne the truth of many points which he held as he had bene taught But Austin in the same place professeth that the markes he names and all other whatsoeuer whereby he is held in the Catholicke Church are nothing worth in comparison of truth manifestly prooued out of the Scripture But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake againe hereafter where you propound some of Austins words more at large A. D. §. 2. Of these markes diuers authors haue written at large I for breuitie sake haue chosen out onely these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke because I hope these will be sufficient and because I finde these especially set forth in Scriptures commended by Councels and generally admitted of all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants as now I am to declare First for the generall admittance of these properties of the true Church I need no other proofe but that both Catholicks and Protestants allow of the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed wherein we professe to beleeue the true Church the which Church is there described with those onely foure properties which before I named as though by those onely euery man might sufficiently know that Church which in euerie point they are bound to beleeue Now if besides this proofe out of the generally receiued Counsels some precise man would haue me prooue these properties to agree to the true Church out of the Scripture it selfe this also I may easily doe A. W. So many and diuers are the markes of the Church propounded by your Popish writers that you had good cause to giue some reason why you cull these foure out of all the rest First you alledge breuitie wherof if you had beene so desirous you would not so often haue repeated the same matters You adde the sufficiencie of these their being mentioned in the Scripture commended by Councels and generally admitted by all sorts both Catholickes and Protestants All which taking them in your sense are generally false as shall appeare in the particular handling of them But indeed the true cause is though you will not be knowne of it that Bellarmine out of whom you haue patched vp your whole discourse though he bring fifteene yet confesseth that they may all after a sort be reduced to these foure There are two faults in this proofe whereby you labour to perswade vs that these properties are generally admitted both by Protestants and Papists First though both admit them yet in diuers senses we according to the true meaning of those Councels you according to those phantasies you haue deuised for the establishing of your Apostaticall Synagogue Secondly we admit them not all as markes of the or a visible Church but as hidden properties of the Catholicke Church the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ which are not to be discerned by the eye of the bodie but by the light of faith as all other articles in the same Creed are What though there be no more properties but those foure there set downe will it follow thence that therefore they are named as though by those onely euerie man might sufficiently know the Church Is that the vse of those points which are deliuered concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Or rather are they not set before vs as principall matters to be beleeued of them So are also these properties of the Church If any man be so simple as to take your former proofe for good whereas it faileth in the chiefe point you would prooue by it as I haue shewed he is fitter to be pittied then instructed But is it a note of precisenesse to desire proofe for matters of faith out of the scripture Doubtlesse it was then no lesse precisenesse to appoint the scripture for a rule of our faith and as great for our Sauiour Christ and the Apostles to confirme their doctrine out of the scripture For this course of theirs makes vs the bolder to require the like of you whose authoritie we more doubt of whereas if they had stood vpon their priuiledge and neuer troubled themselues with proouing that they deliuered or leauing their doctrine in writing we should easily haue perswaded our selues to rest vpon mens authoritie and not to looke for any proofe by scripture But giue me leaue a little to consider of this
course of yours The question is whether the true Church be with you or with vs. You tell vs we shall know that by seeing whether you or we haue the markes of the true Church we accept of this triall How shall we informe our selues what these markes are Tush say you for that matter you must be ruled by the Councels Why but the Councels as you would make vs beleeue were wholly for you and consisted of Popish Bishops what reason haue we then to stand to their iudgment in a controuersie betwixt you vs You will answer that we say they were not Popish We say so indeed and haue prooued it in diuers points as occasion hath bene offered But we adde further that these Councels might erre you denie it How will you perswade vs the contrarie When all is done we must come to triall by the Scriptures or else take your word for it And is it for all this precisenesse to require proofe out of the Scriptures of those marks you would prooue your Church by I haue shewed before that there is no means to know certainly there is any Church of Christ or any Christ but by the Scriptures Are not the Scriptures then the fittest meanes to teach vs by what marks this Church may be knowne The Councels tell vs what they are Who told them the holy Ghost Let it be so But how did he tell them by some reuelation vtterly beside the Scriptures or by truth in the Scriptures If the former we aske how we may be so perswaded The church tels you so Yet again the church How knows the church that they had such reuelatiō What help now but about again to the scriptures Thinke not much then if in this questiō cōcerning the marks of the church we desire to be taught by the Scriptures what those markes are especially since as you professe you may do it so easily but I am afraid you will do it with more ease then truth A. D. §. 3. The true Church is signified to be one by those words of the Canticles Vna est columba mea if we will beleeue the exposition of Saint Cyprian and S. Austin Also we may gather the same out of those words of our Sauiour in which he calleth his Church vnum ouile one sheepfold Also by those places of S. Paul where he termeth the Church vnum corpus one bodie Moreouer Christ our Sauiour praying for his Church did specially intreate and without doubt obtained vt omnes vnum sint that all the members thereof should be one thing to wit that at the least they should all professe one and the same faith all partake of one and the same baptisme and other sacraments all liue vnder one and the same Lord in due subordination and subiection to that vniforme and orderly gouernment of lawful pastors ordained and appointed in the Church by him The true Church of Christ therefore is one Contrary the conuenticles of hereticks are destitute of this marke of vnitie according as Tertullian affirmeth saying Denique penitus inspectae haereses omnes in multis deprehenduntur cum auctoribus suis dissentientes Finally all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders And the reason of this disagreement among heretickes the same Tertullian assigneth very well in the same place saying Variant inter se haeretici dum vnusquisque pro suo arbitrio modulatur quod accepit quemadmodum ea pro arbitrio composuit ille qui tradidit Heretickes do differ in points of doctrine among themselues while as euery one taketh vpon him to fashion the faith which he receiued according to his owne liking or fancie like as he that first deliuered it vnto them did inuent it according to his owne will and pleasure A. W. We are now come to the very point for proofe of your maior that they onely who are one holy Catholick Apostolick Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church is to be knowne belong To make this proofe good you dispute in this manner If One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke be good marks to know the true Church by then they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong But those foure properties One Holy Catholick Apostolick are good markes by which the true Church may be knowne Therefore they onely who are One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the markes by which the true Church may be knowne belong The consequence of your maior is but weake For these foure properties may be good markes to know the true church by that wheresouer we see them we may be sure there is a true church and yet there may also be some true church where they are not I dispute not whether the true Church may be without these but denie that because these where they are are good markes therefore there is no true Church where these are wanting This proposition though your proofe be lame without it you wholy omit and so propound vs a reason which we need not yeeld to though you were able to proue the minor neuer so sufficiently Your minor as before I answered is true if we rightly vnderstand the meaning of those seuerall properties But the proofe you bring is scarce warrantable All properties of the Church belonging onely thereto and apparent to be seene where they are are good markes to know the Church by But these foure properties are such Therefore these foure are good markes to know the Church by There is a third thing omitted by you necessarily required to make any propertie a good marke viz. that it be such as alwayes agrees to the Church For otherwise it can serue as I answered to your former proposition but only for the halfe dutie of a marke because at some times I may see the Church and not know it for all this marke If I find these properties I may assure my selfe that I haue found the true Church because these neuer are but in the true Church yet if the true Church may at any time be without these as it may for ought contained in your maior then missing my marke I shal be vnable to discerne of the true Church This minor for the first part of it is true in such sense as I granted the former these properties rightly vnderstood belong onely to the true Church If the latter part also be true that they are apparent to be seene doubtlesse truth of doctrine which maketh the Church one must needs be a certaine marke of the true Church though you denie it that prerogatiue Let vs now see how you proue the parts of your minor with this prouiso that though you do proue them yet you are little the nearer because diuers former propositions vpon which this depends remaine still vnproued by you It is a propertie belonging
spirit of Christ. For Christ saith he is as the soule giuing life by the holy Ghost to his whole mysticall bodie But the holy Ghost quickens onely the elect not the reprobate too In the latter of the two places the same Cardinall expounds that being one in respect of charitie and Catharin a learned Popish Bishop vnderstands this bodie to be the holy Church consisting of them that are predestinate and called and iustified and glorified holy and faithfull Of the last place I spake sufficiently before Agreement in the truth is the marke we looke at This you adde to proue that to professe one and the same faith that is to be one is proper to the true church Your proofe is that Tertulliā saith that all heresies if they be wel looked into are found to differ in many things from their first founders Tertullian might truly say so of al heresies then known yet there may haue bin some since his time perhaps that haue kept alwayes the same errors without any change worth the speaking of But as I noted before since all heresies for a time hold their first errors continuance in the same profession can be no good marke of the true church vnles you can set downe a certaine number of yeares during which they must continue in one and the same faith or else be held for hereticks because of their changing Now in conclusion of this first marke I must obserue a few points for the Readers instruction First I desire it may be noted that whereas vnitie is made a principal marke by your writers they vnderstand as well vnitie of loue as of faith you require but the one of them and so giue vs but halfe a marke Secondly let it be obserued that this marke is either no marke at all or all one with ours so that whereas you trouble vs with more then this you make it much harder then we do to find out the true Church In the third place it would be considered what you meane by one and the same faith I presse you with your owne argument Continuing in one and the same faith in regard of some points only is no good marke because heretickes continue in some points of truth Continuing in all points can be no good mark for it is not only hard but vnpossible for a simple vnlearned man to be assured that any church hath alwayes continued in profession of one and the same faith in euery point yea this is infinitely harder then to discerne of all truth because the one is to be learned out of the Scriptures the other cannot be known but by searching the records of the church from time to time Of the one there is certaine knowledge to be had because the Scriptures are the word of God of the other the best assurance we can haue is but the testimonie of men that might erre by ignorance or partialitie Whatsoeuer doubts or difficulties you can imagine concerning the false translation or misunderstanding of the Scriptures the same wil accompanie all the writings of men touching the doctrine of the Church in all ages Then let any reasonable man iudge whether you or we shew them a better marke to know the true Church by A. D. §. 4. The true Church is also proued to be holy by that of S. Paul Templum Dei sanctum est quod estis vos The temple of God is holy which temple you are By which place notwithstanding S. Paul did not meane to signifie that euery one of this companie was holy For a little after in the same Epistle he saith to the same companie Omnino auditur inter vos fornicatio talis fornicatio qualis nec inter gentes There is plainly heard fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathen He doth not therefore I say meane that euery one of the Church is holy but that the whole companie is to be termed holy because the profession thereof doth of it selfe wholy tend to holinesse the doctrine being such as withdraweth from all vice and instructeth and moueth men to vertue the Sacraments also do not onely signifie but in the vertue which they haue from Christ his passion they also worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie Wherefore although euery one that is in the Church be not holy yet no doubt alwayes some are the which their holinesse it pleaseth Almightie God to testifie and make knowne sometime by miracle and ordinarily he vseth to make it apparent enough by the light of their vertuous actions which at all times in many members of the true Church do so shine before men that by it men are moued to glorifie God and sometimes to imitate in their owne life that which in others they admire And whatsoeuer member of the Church faileth from this holinesse of life it is euident that the fault is onely in himself who liueth not according to the prescript of his professiō nor vseth in due sort those means which it hath of the holy Sacraments which as I said before are effectuall instruments of sanctification Contrariwise no sect of hereticks is truly holy neither was there euer any person that did inuent or obstinatly adhere vnto any sect of heresie which had in him true sanctitie And no maruel because the very profession and doctrine it selfe of euery heresie is opposite to the very rootes of true sanctitie the which rootes be true Christian faith and humilitie For how can he be truly holy and iust who being possessed with the spirit of heresie must needs be depriued of true faith without which the iust man cannot liue according to that saying of S. Paul Iustus ex fide viuit Or how can he be holy that doth not only not humble himselfe like a little one submitting himselfe to euery humane creature for Gods sake but doth proudly oppose himselfe against the vniuersall Church it selfe whom God hath willed and commanded vs to heare no otherwise then himselfe For wanting this humilitie and consequently the grace of God which is denied to the proud and giuen to the humble there is no doubt but that howsoeuer such a man seemeth in his outward behauiour he can haue no true sanctitie within him the which true sanctitie failing inwardly it is hard for him to beare himselfe so but that sometime or other by one occasion or other he shall euen outwardly manifest this his inward want as in these our daies heretickes commonly do in such apparent manner that it is no hard matter to discerne that they be not as some of them would haue the Church defined a companie of Saints A. W. Hauing shewed before that this discourse proceedeth not orderly as it should to the proofe of that which is propounded by you and denied by vs I will not stand to lay out the fault in euery particular but content my selfe with hauing done it once for all It
with thē which yet may be done by ignorance without pride If many heathen men haue so demeaned themselues as that they could hardly or not at all be charged with any grosse outward fault doubtlesse it is possible for hereticks to do the like At the least what a gay marke of the Church is this holinesse which for a long time may be for ought men can discerne in an hereticke who all that while may be taken for a true Christian Besides if truth of religion be to be iudged of by holinesse of conuersation as a certaine marke for that within cannot otherwise be seene why may not a man change his conceit of anie religion when he seeth any notable professor thereof fall into any grieuous sinne as Dauid and Peter did As for vs whom you terme hereticks at your pleasure if our worst Protestants be not farre past in villanie by your Papists for treasons murthers and generally all kinde of vncleannesse I will confesse that you liue better then the grounds of your religion require and we worse then ours But I leaue this point till I come to examine your Assumption concerning the holinesse of your Church of Rome A. D. §. 5. The true Church is prooued also to be Catholicke that is to say vniuersall first in time by most plaine prophecies and promises of the Scripture as I haue alreadie shewed in the eleuenth chapter vnto which here I will onely adde those words of Isaias Hoc foedus meum cum eis dicit Dominus Spiritus meus qui est in te verba quae posui in ore tuo non recedent de ore tuo de ore seminis tui de ore seminis seminis tui dicit Dominus amodò vsque in sempiternum This is my couenant with them saith our Lord my Spirit which is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart from thy mouth and from the mouth of thy seed and from the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from henceforth for euer It may also be easily prooued to be vniuersall in respect of place by these plaine testimonies of holy Scripture Conuertentur ad Dominum vniuersi fines terrae all the bounds of the earth shall be conuerted to our Lord. Dominabitur à mari vsque ad mare à flumine vsque ad terminos orbis terrarum He to wit Christ shall rule and haue dominion from sea to sea and from the flood vntil the furthermost limits of the earth Omnes gentes seruient ei All nations shall serue him Vpon all which places and some other see Saint Austin in his exposition of the Psalmes and among other things which he speaketh to the purpose note his interpretation of those words à flumine vsque ad terminos orbis terrarū Which words saith he do signifie that the dominion of Christ began à flumine Iordano from the floud of lordan where he being baptised was made manifest by the descending of the holy Ghost the sound of his Fathers voice from whence he began to chuse his Disciples from hence saith he Doctrina eius incipiens dilatatur vsque ad terminos orbis terrae cū praedicatur Euāgeliū regni in vniuerso orbe in testimoniū omnibus gentibus tunc veniet finis His doctrine beginning is dilated or spread abroad vnto the furthest parts of the earth when the Gospell of the kingdome is preached ouer the whole world for a testimony to all nations after which done the end of the world shall come See also the same S. Austin in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae especially in the ninth tenth chapters where he eiteth vrgeth that place of S. Luke where our Sauiour saith Necesse est impleri omnia quae scripta sunt in lege Prophetis Psalmis de me c. quoniā sic scriptum est sic oportebat Christum pati resurgere à mortuis praedicari in nomine eius poenitentiā remissionem peccatorū in omnes gentes incipientibus ab Ierosolyma It is needfull that all things should be fulfilled which are written of me in the Law the Prophets and Psalmes c. for so it is writtē and so it was needfull that Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day and that penance and remission of sinnes should be preached in his name throughout all nations beginning frō Ierusalem By which place and diuers others he sheweth plainly that the true Church of Christ cannot be contained in a corner of the world but must be vniuersall that is diffused and spread throughout the whole world as the same S. Austin beside his other proofes gathered out of the very name Catholica the which name saith he was imposed on the Church by our forefathers vt ex ipso nomine ostenderent quia per totum est secundum totum enim Catholon Graecè dicitur that by the very name they might shew that the Church is throughout the whole world For saith he the word Catholon in Greeke wherupon Catholik is deriued signifieth a thing which is generall or agreeing to the while But we must note here that when we say the true Church is Catholick or diffused throughout the whole world it is meant that at least by succession of time it hath bene or shall be dilated more and more in euery nation till it haue gone throughout the whole world Moreouer it is termed Catholicke not onely because it shal be spred ouer the whole world in processe of time but also because euen in euery age it hath bin and shall be alwayes in very many nations and indeed in euery natiō where any Christiā religiō is which is in a sort to be spread ouer the whole world This doth S. Austin in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae most diligently proue out of the Scriptures themselues The effect of his argument is this The Church must be such as it is described in Scripture But in Scripture it is described to begin at Ierusalem and to proceed into all Iewrie and to go forward into Samaria and to stretch it selfe further and further vsque ad vltimum terrae euen vnto the vttermost of the earth And saith he the seed of the Gospell once sowne in the field of the world fructificat crescit doth not vniuersally or for the most part perish but fructifie and grow or increase in omni mundo in the whole world and doth continue to grow or increase vsque ad messē vntill the haruest of the consummation of the world as our Sauiour signifieth the which consummation will be when this seed is come to the full growth praedicabitur Euangelium in vniuerso mundo in testimonium omnibus gentibus saith our Sauiour tune veniet consummatio the Gospell shall be preached in the whole world for a testimonie to all nations and then the consummation shal
come This is S. Austins discourse by which he proueth that the true Church of Christ is not contained in a corner of the world but must be dilated and spread in a sort ouer the whole world On the contrary side the congregation of hereticks is not Catholicke neither in time nor place And first for time it is euident because true doctrine was first preached and beleeued as the good seed was first sowne in the field and afterward the cockle that is false doctrine was ouer sowed Saint Paul did for three yeares space teach the Ephesians the true doctrine of faith and had conuersed among them like a lambe seruiens Domino cum omni humilitate seruing our Lord with all humilitie but after his departure he said he knew that rauenous wolues would enter in among them not sparing the flocke and that euen out of their owne company there would arise viriloquentes peruersa vt abducant discipulos post se men speaking peruerse things that they may leade away disciples after themselues And as this happened at Ephesus so doubtlesse in all other places where there hath bin any alteration of Christian doctrine first the true faith was planted by some Apostle or Apostolicke man and afterward the contrary was brought in by some speaking peruerse things thereby leading away disciples after themselues So that it is certaine that no heresie is so auncient as the true faith neither is any one of them of so long continuance for the time to come as S. Paul signified when hauing described heretickes of the latter dayes he addeth sed vltra non proficient insipientia enim eorū manifesta erit omnibus but they shall prosper no further for their folly shall be manifest to all The same doth S. Austin aptly expresse expounding those words of the Psalme Ad nihilum deuenient tanquam aqua decurrens Non vos terreant fratres saith he quidam fluuij qui dicuntur torrentes hyemalibus aquis implentur nolite timere post paululum transit decurrit aqua ad tempus perstrepit mox cessabit diu stare non possunt Multae haereses iam emortuae sunt c. My brethren let not certaine floods called land-brookes terrifie you they are filled with winter waters feare them not after a while the water doth passe and runne downe for a time it maketh a noise but it will cease by and by those flouds cannot stand long Many heresies are now already dead c. Now if we will haue respect of place it is certaine that no heresie is by processe of time to spread it selfe absolutely ouer the whole world as I haue proued that the true Church shall do and the reason hereof may be assigned because as S. Austin saith diu stare non possunt they cannot continue so long as were needfull to get them so vniuersally spred ouer the whole world especially considering that as S. Paul saith when they haue continued a while Insipientia earum manifesta fit omnibus their foolishnesse is made manifest to all and so no maruel si vltra non proficiant if they prosper not nor make no further progresse Neither ordinarily in any one age is heresie so vniuersall in place as the true Catholick religiō but for the most part it is cōtained in one or two countries as it were in a corner of the world So that of hereticks we may wel say as S. Austin doth that they are those which say Ecce hic est Christus ecce illic Behold Christ is here behold he is there that is to say the true doctrine of Christ is onely truly preached in this countrey or that countrey of which kind of people our Sauiour giueth vs warning and biddeth vs saying nolite credere beleeue them not We may wel say also of these as the same S. Austin doth Quaecunque congregatio cuiuslibet haeresis in angulis sedet concubina est non matrona Whatsoeuer congregation of what heresie soeuer sitteth in corners that is to say is but in few prouinces and in the rest of the Christian world either is not at al or at the least is not manifestly knowne to be is a concubine not a matron to wit it is not the spouse of Christ nor the lawfull mother of the children of God Wherefore sith there is this difference betwixt heresie and true Christian religion that as the same Saint Austin saith Singulae haereses in multis gentibus vbi Ecclesia est non inueniuntur Ecclesia autem quae vbique est etiam vbi illae sunt inuenitur Heresies are not found in many nations where the church is but the Church which is euery where is found in those nations where heresies are This difference I say being betwixt heresie and the true religion we need not doubt but that to be Catholicke or vniuersally receiued in the Christian world especially at all times is a note of the truth And that therfore the companie which professeth the faith which at all times and in a sort in all places hath bin receiued of Christians is vndoubtedly the true Church of Christ A. W. What if the true Church be proued to be Catholicke will it follow therupon that therfore it is alwayes Catholick so that a man cannot know which is the true Church but by knowing which Church is Catholick For such must euery good mark be proper to and al times present with that wherof it is a mark But let vs see a little better what Catholicknesse this is which you deliuer for a marke of the Church If you meane by the name Catholicke as if that were the true Church which cals it selfe the Catholicke Church what is more easie then for any false church to take vnto it selfe that name Did not Theudas and Iudas professe themselues to be the Messiah Hath not our Sauiour forewarned vs that there should arise false Christs and false Prophets Yea the Donatists who shut vp the church in a corner of Africa were not ashamed to call themselues the Catholicke Church And as Austin saith All hereticks would be called Catholicks If you vrge the thing signified by the name first not one of your Papists among a thousand vnderstands what this word Catholicke meanes but onely that it is the name of euery one that holdeth of the Church of Rome Secondly if by Catholick Church you meane such a church as hath bin euer since the comming of our Sauiour Christ and shall be at all times and ouer all the world as you expound your selfe how can it be a good marke of the true Church when as it is an impossibilitie that euery man should be able to search and know which church hath alwayes bin which hath not which hath bin euery where which onely in some places and much more vnpossible is it if there be degrees of impossibilitie that euery either learned or vnlearned man shold certainly know which church shal alwayes continue till the end of
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
Church was not termed Catholicke because of the communion that one Church hath with another throughout the whole world but because it obserueth all the commandements and sacraments of God To make short the reason of the title Catholicke attributed to the Church in the iudgement both of Greek and Latin writers is first the vniuersall dispersion of the church through all part of the world The Church saith Cyril of Ierusalem is Catholick because it is spred all ouer the world It is called Catholicke saith Austin because it is dispersed through the whole world See brethren quoth the same Austin in another place how the vniuersality of the Church spred ouer the whole world is commended The Church saith he is called Catholick because it is vniuersally perfect and failes in nothing and is spred ouer the whole world Where though he seeme to acknowledge the Donatists interpretation yet he addes the other as more principall And in the conference betwixt the Catholiks and Donatists the true Christians proued themselues to be Catholicks and so rightly called because they held communion with the Church spred ouer the face of the earth This is that vnitie which accordingly was implied in the title of the Catholick Church signifying an agreement in matters of faith which was betwixt the seueral true Churches in all places Hitherto may we reasonably refer that of Pacianus who saith that Catholicke is euery where one The vnitie is signified in that so many seuerall congregations make but one church in regard of that one faith which is cōmon to all the vniuersalnesse of this church in the particular assemblies is noted to vs by the word Catholik The Fathers in the Nicene councell thought good to expresse that vnitie by professing to beleeue one Church to which they added also Catholicke So saith Alexander Patriarch of Alexandria who was in the time of that Councell We acknowledge one onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church So Theodoret afterward There is one Church scattered ouer sea and land wherefore we pray saying For the holy and onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church And in another place Paul saith he nameth many churches not by any diuision of spirit but seuered by distance of place It appeareth then that by Catholicknes the vniuersalnesse of the Churches being in all places is signified But what was the reason why this title was added to the church In all likelihood it was first deuised and applied to the Church to signifie the breach of the partition wall which sometimes stood betwixt the Iewes and Gentils till by our Sauiours death it was cast downe This I speake vpon this supposition that the word Catholicke was as ancient in the Church as the time of the Apostles But if it were brought in afterward as I could easily perswade my self but for reuerence of other mens iudgments we may verie wel assent to Pacianus who writes of it in this maner When after the Apostles times heresies sprung vp and men wēt about to pul in peeces the doue of God that same Queen the Church by diuersity of names as euery seueral heresie had a proper name did not the Apostolicke people they that followed the doctrine of the Apostles require a sirname for themselues whereby they might make difference of such as remained vncorrupted with heresie lest the error of some should rent in peeces the vnspotted virgin of God Was it not meet that the principall head the true Church should haue a proper name to be knowne by It appeareth by these words that the reason of the name Catholick was at the first that there might be a title to distinguish sound Christians and true Churches from hereticks hereticall assemblies To which purpose that he might auow the vse of this name he signifieth that it had before bene vsed by Cyprian And afterward he affirmeth directly that the true Christian people are diuided from the hereticall when they are called Catholicke But you will perhaps demaund why Catholicke should be applied to make this distinction The reason thereof as I thinke is this The Gospell by the preaching of the Apostles was spred farre neere ouer the face of the earth accordingly diuers Churches in diuers places established all which agreed in the vnitie of the same faith and doctrine But Sathan who is alwaies watching to sow cockle and darnell among the wheat stirred vp here and there certaine peruerse and trouble some men who set abroach errors to corrupt the truth of Doctrine Now these teachers being discouered that there might be a difference of name betwixt true Christians and them for the name of christian was common to both so that euerie man might learne by the verie name to auoid the heretickes it was thought meete by the learned and carefull gouernours of the seuerall Churches that hereticks should be called by some speciall name either of their author or of some point of error which they held and the true professors should haue the title of Catholicks because they maintained the truth of that doctrine which was generally professed by the Churches of God In this sense Pacianus saith that Christian was his name and Catholicke his sirname Hee that shall aduisedly consider the vse of the word in Cyprian shall perceiue that Catholicke is opposed by him to schisme and heresie and that said by him to be done against the Catholicke Church which is done contrarie to the practise of the seuerall Churches in all countries So Clemens saith that heresies labour to rend the Church in peeces and he calleth the Church Catholicke because of the vnitie of one faith generally receiued as may be gathered out of him though indeed the chiefe thing which he respecteth in the vnitie of the Church is that All the elect are made partakers of one and the same saluation according to the couenant of God which in all ages hath bene one and the same Wherin he seemes to apply the terme Catholicke to time but the reason of the name by the generall and constant iudgement of the ancient writers is rather the generality of the Church professing the same doctrine in all places Therefore your great Bishop Melchior Canus expounding this title saith that the Church is called Catholicke because in euery country people and nation sexe and condition it is spred farre and neere And by this difference saith he afterward it is distinguished not onely from the Synagogue or Iewish Church but also from the conuenticles of hereticks So doth your catechisme of Trent set out by Pius Quintus vnderstand Catholicke The Church is called Catholicke because it is spred in the light of one faith from the East to the West receiuing men of all sorts be they Soythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female Then followeth the vniuersalitie of time containing all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the
end of the world professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles If then we restraine the Catholicknesse of the Church to vniuersalitie of place wherein as we haue seene persons are also contained The Catholicke Church is nothing else but the companie of the elect taken now ordinarily not onely out of the Iewes as heretofore till the comming of our Sauiour but also out of all nations and people whatsoeuer If we stretch it farther to vniuersalitie of time also which can hardly be prooued out of the ancient writers it comprehendeth all the elect that haue bene are and shall be from the beginning of the world to the end thereof And thus much of the Catholicke Church concerning the meaning and reason of the word Now to your proofe as it lieth not by way of refutation but of explication We grant as I haue said often that the Church is common to all people and places not shut vp any longer within the land of Iewry nor appropriated to the Iews and we condemne them of error who teach as sometimes the Donatists Rogatians did that it is enclosed in Affrick or Europe or Asia or America or any of these and not common to euerie one of them aswell as to any of them But this is not so to be vnderstood as if the Church of Christ must needs be in all these or many of these at once in any one time It is enough that we acknowledge the vniuersality of it de iure thogh we denie it to be here or there de facto To speake plaine it belōgeth to the nature of the Church of Christ to haue all places open to it it is no more tied to Rome or Ierusalem then it is to London or Paris yea it hath spred it selfe ouer the face of the whole earth and hath bene or shall be in euerie particular countrie but this largenesse hath not bene nor perhaps shall be at any one time but by succession as it hath pleased God to affoord the meanes of the Gospell and giue a blessing to it sometimes in one place sometimes in an other as your selfe presently acknowledge But this doth not prooue that it is a marke to know the Church by This reason of the name Catholicke is a mere deuise of your owne and without warrant of antiquitie I say more it is false too vnderstanding it as you do not of the Church of the elect but of a companie of men making knowne profession of the true faith For in the beginning when the Church of Christ was as pure and as glorious as euer it was since it stretched not it selfe beyond the borders of Iewrie but was for a time shut vp within the walles of Ierusalem till the Lord by Herods persecution made way for it to passe into all the world From that time forward it grew mightily and setled it selfe in many countries yea it ceased not to multiply till the reuealing of Antichrist who by little and little corrupted the truth of doctrine euen in the fundamentall points and so destroyed the Church of God out of these parts of the world where it had florished some hundreds of yeares Yet was not the world left without a true Church no not in these westerne countries but such was the state of it as that it remained in a few chosen seruants of God who were hidden like those fifties in Israel from the eies of your rauenous wolues the bloudthirsty Cleargy of your Romish Synagogue Saint Austin in that booke you alledge had to do with the Donatists who insolently and wickedly rent themselues from the vnion of all the christian Churches then in the world allowing no other Church of Christ but that faction of their owne in a part of Africa They neither could nor did charge the Churches which they condemned with any grosse error in doctrine but confidently affirmed without all ground of truth or likelihood of reason that the Churches planted by the Apostles were vanished out of the world for supply whereof I know not by what miracle their Church forsooth sprung vp vpon a sodaine in that corner of Africa This ridiculous conceit of theirs Austin refuteth by shewing that the Church is to be sought and found in the Scriptures and not in the deuises and dreames of men Let vs not heare saith Austin this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord The Lords bookes are to be had to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both giue credit both of vs obey There let vs seeke the Church there let vs trie our cause And a little after I will not haue the Church shewed me by mens deuises but by the Oracles of God And againe afterward when the hereticks expound the performance of the promise made to Abraham Thy seed shall be as the sand of the sea and as the Starres of heauen as if it had bene fulfilled in Donatus and his companie Austin answereth Reade vs this out of the Law out of the Prophets out of the Psalmes out of the Gospell it selfe out of the Apostles writings reade it and we beleeue it This foundation being laid in the fiue first chapters Austin proceedeth to prooue the vniuersalnesse of continuance of the Church out of the Scriptures out of the old Testament in the three next chapters out of the new in the test So that the argument you speake of beginneth at the sixt chapter the Maior or propositiō is in the first chapters to the sixt the Assumption or Minor in the other that follow But because you leaue those three chapters that shew what the Church should be out of the old Testament I will follow your course and begin at the ninth where Austin sheweth that the Church was to begin at Ierusalem and so to passe into Samaria and from thence to spread it selfe through the whole world To this he bringeth in the Donatists thus answering These things say they we beleeue and confesse that they are fulfilled but afterward the world fell away and onely Donatus companie remained VVhat doth Austin replie Let them reade this to vs saith Austin as they reade of Enoch of Noe of Abraham Isaac and Iacob and of the Tribes which remained the rest rending themselues away and of the twelue Apostles who continued faithfull when all other fell away These examples the Donatists had brought to countenāce their schisme Austin willeth them to prooue their stedfastnesse when all other Churches failed by the same Scriptures which were to beare witnesse of those whom they alledged He goeth forward to refute other arguments of theirs in the chapter following still pressing them with this that they should shew out of the Scriptures that the Church founded by the Apostles was to vanish away and their faction onely to remaine sincere This was his course and indeed what other course could he haue taken The hereticks as before I
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy
the Gospell he saw his kingdome againe in hazard he betooke himselfe to his former shifts and spread abroad the poyson of heresie in diuers countries that he might giue you his vassals occasion to slaunder the doctrine of the Gospell as if from it these heresies had risen This is one of his delusions wherby he deceiues and misleades many to damnation though the children of God perceiue his subtilty and rest vpon the manifest truth of the Scripture for all Sathans practises to discredit it by this and such other inconueniences with which he endeauours to haue the preaching of the Gospell accompanied for the disgrace thereof This course also he tooke in the first beginning of the Gospell as it is manifest by the multitude and grossenesse of those heresies which brake out within the first 400 yeares and were neuer since equalled for number or haynousnesse in twice so long a time that the likenesse of Sathans dealing may be an argument of the like truth he now laboreth to ouerthrow or discredit A. D. §. 3. My chiefe question and comparison therefore shall be betwixt the Romane Church that is to say that companie which communicateth agreeth in profession of faith with the Church of Rome and liueth vnder the obedience as touching spirituall matters of the Bishop of Rome and other Bishops and Pastours vnder him and the Protestants that is to say that companie which from Luther his time hitherward haue opposed themselues against the Romane Church either all or any one sect of them my question I say or comparison shal be to which of those two the foure forenamed marks agree and consequently which of them is the true Church A. W. Here you propound the matter and argument of this chapter which you call a comparison as if the question were whether of the Churches be beautified with those foure properties consequently whether of them is the true Church But to speak properly there is no comparison intended therein For our question is not whether your Synagogue or our congregations come nearer the state of true Churches which seemeth to be implied in making a comparison betwixt them but whether of them are indeed true Churches If I should compare your Church of Rome with the Synagogues of the Iewes the profession of the Mahometans or the companies of Anabaptists or other Hereticks I might finde that your doctrine came nearer to the truth in many points and so were more likely to shew me the true Church or that these foure properties agreed better to you then to them But this comparison would not settle me in the knowledge of a true Church The point is as before I shewed the proofe of your Minor that the Church of Rome is she to whom those properties belong For the further confirmation whereof you vndertake to prooue that our congregations haue no interest to these titles and this you do not by way of comparison but by an argument of contraries But let vs take it as it is and fall to the examination of your proofes yet still with this prouiso that the Church of Rome cannot be concluded to be the true Church nor our congregations false Churches though you had and we wanted all these markes as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 4. § SECT I. That the Romane Church onely is one First I finde that the Protestants Church is not perfectly One or vniforme in dogmaticall points of faith but variable according to the varietie of times and persons now holding one thing then an other and that the learned men thereof are so much at iarre among themselues in matters of faith that it is hard to finde three in all points of one opinion and which is chiefely to be pondered as principally appertaining to the marke of Vnitie they haue no meanes to end their controuersies so to returne to Vnitie and to continue therein For while as they admit no rule of faith but only Scripture which scriptures diuers men expoūd diuersly according to the diuers humours and affections opinions and phantasies of euerie one neuer one admitting any one head or chiefe ruler infallibly guided by the holy Ghost in his doctrine to whose censure in matters of faith euerie one should of necessitie submit themselues Vt capite constituto schismatis tollatur occasio that as Saint Ierome speaketh a head or chiefe ruler being ordained occasion of schisme or diuision may be taken away Whilest they do thus as they all doe thus all proclaiming to be ruled by onely Scripture and yet almost in euerie one in one point or other expounding Scripture diuersly and one contrarie to an other according to the diuers seeming of euerie ones sense and neuer one admitting any one superiour infallibly guided by the holy Ghost to whose definitiue sentence he and the rest will be bound to submit their doctrine and expositions whilest I say they doe thus it is vnpossible that they should In fidei occurrere vnitatem meet as Saint Hierome counselleth in the vnitie of faith The which vnitie in profession of faith notwithstanding is one principall thing pertaining to the vnitie of the Church and vnitie of the Church is one chiefe marke by which we must discerne which is the true Church Contrariwise the Romane Church is alwaies one and vniforme in faith neuer varying or holding any dogmaticall point contrarie to that which in former times from the beginning it did hold The learned men thereof though sometimes differing in opinion in matters not defined by the Church yet inmatters of faith all conspire in one And no marueile because they haue a most conuenient meanes to keepe vnitie in profession of faith sith they do acknowledge one chiefe Pastor appointed ouer them to wit the successour of Saint Peter to whose definitiue censure in matters concerning religion they wholly submit themselues knowing that to Saint Peter and his successours Christ our Sauiour promised the keyes of the kingdome of Heauen and that he would vpon him and his successours as vpon a sure rocke build his Church Knowing also that the same our Sauiour did specially pray for Saint Peter and euerie one his lawfull successour that this faith should not faile at least so farre as to teach the Church a false faith to the intent that he might be alwaies able to confirme his brethren if at any time they should faile in the doctrine of faith Knowing lastly that to Saint Peter and his successours which word I adde not without sufficient authoritie and reason Christ our Lord gaue most ample power ouer his vniuersall Church saying Pasce oues meas feed my sheepe that is to say Rule or gouerne as chiefe Pastour vnder me my sheepe that is all those that pertaine to the sheepfold which is the Church giuing him and his successours charge to feed them with the food of true doctrine of faith and consequently binding these his sheepe to receiue obediently this food of true doctrine of faith at
which we pleade not guiltie and looke to heare what euidence commeth against vs to proue the enditement But you rather like the foreman of the grand enquest then the plaintiffe that endites vs instead of prouing come in with I find that the Protestants Church is not perfectly one This will not serue the turne we must know how you finde it or at least be assured that you haue found it Who would not laugh at such an euidence But though you leaue the two former points to the credulousnesse of your Popish followers yet you attempt the proofe of the last by this Syllogisme They that admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie But the Protestant Churches admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand Therefore the Protestant Churches haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie I denie your maior for the Scripture alone containes all truth necessarie to be beleeued and that so plainly that without any such soueraigne iudgement of any man it is possible for a reasonable man to discerne truth from falshood But if any man will be contentious we haue the sword of the magistrate and the censure of excommunication to bring him into order or to cut him off if he be incurable that the vnitie of our Churches be not dissolued either by heresic or schisme But to confirme your proposition you alledge Ieromes authoritie that there must be a head or chiefe ruler that occasion of schisme may be taken away The danger of schisme that Ierome speakes of in his first booke against Iouinian not as your Printer quotes it in the second was not in respect of doctrine but of outward peace Neither was this course held from the beginning as Ierome saith but in discretion appointed vpon occasion Before that by the malice of the diuell saith Ierome the Church was deuided into factions and one man held of Paul another of Apollo another of Cephas Churches were gouerned by common consent of the Presbyters but after that euery man began to thinke that those which hee had baptized were his and not Christs it was decreed ouer all the world that one chosen from among the Presbyters should be set ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the Church should appertaine and that the seeds of schismes might be taken away Out of which sentence of Ierome we may obserue these points First that this meanes of procuring vnitie belongeth not necessarily to the nature of the Church for then it must needs haue bene as auncient as the Church But Ierome telleth vs that there was a time when the Church was without it and that in her best estate while the Apostles liued By little and little saith Ierome afterward that the plants of dissention might be plucked vp the whole care was layed vpon one Secondly whereas in the place alledged by you Ierome acknowledgeth such a superioritie in Peter aboue the other Apostles in respect of age for which as he saith he was preferred before Iohn yet there is more heede to be taken to his iudgement in this place where he disputes the question without all passion then to that which hee speakes in the heate of disputation against Iouinian But what neede we any better proofe of this point then Saint Paul affoords vs He blameth the Corinthians because some held of Paul some of Apollos some of Cephas Cephas or Peter is the last why not the first rather if he were as you say the head Or why should the Corinthians be reproued for cleauing to him especially if he were appointed to be the chiefe It might be a fault to depend on Paule or on Apollos who were in your iudgement vnderlings but it was a great vertue to hang vpon Cephas the head How forgetfull was the Apostle Paul both of his dutie to Peter his head and of so readie a meanes to end that schisme that would not tell them that Peter was appointed head to the end all occasion of schisme might be taken away Thirdly we are not so to vnderstand Ierome as if he had said that there was one head appointed ouer the whole world but that in all places where there were multitudes of Presbyters order was taken that some one chosen from among the rest should be chiefe and principall in that Diocesse as I may speake and ouer all them which were in some sort accounted to be but one bodie This agreeth with the practise of those times and with that of Cyprian Here of spring heresies and schismes arise that the Priest of the Lord is not obeyed Which Cyprian speakes of euery seuerall Bishop in his Diocesse Whereunto also belongs that of Ierome There be seuerall Bishops of Churches seuerall Archbishops and seuerall Archdeacons and all the Ecclesiasticall order is stayed by the gouernours Whereby saith the Glosse Ierome proueth that there may not be two or more Bishops in one Church but that there must be a seuerall Bishop in euery seuerall Church To which purpose I may farther alledge another place of Ierome Vnlesse saith Ierome the Bishop haue a speciall power aboue other there will be as many schismes in the Church as there be Priests This course then of authorizing some one of the Presbyters aboue the rest was for the preseruing of order and keeping out of schisme not for the determining of controuersies in Religion as if all must haue stood to one mans iudgement in questions of Diuinitie which either may be ended by the authoritie of the Scriptures if they be necessary to be determined or if they be not may be forbidden to be proceeded in without any danger to the Churches libertie So that the Protestant Churches fully agree in matters of substance and want not meanes to settle peace in questions of lesse importance or if they did might easily haue as good meanes as your Church by appointing a Pope ouer themselues as in policie you haue done But as yet they finde no such need especially where the remedie is worse then the disease as it must needs be in so lawlesse a tyrannie Is it not more for the glory of God good of the Church as I haue said otherwhere that there should be continuall disagreement in some matters of Religion then that all should beleeue maintain false doctrine Were not our Sauiour Christ better haue a troubled church thē none at all Honorable war is to be preferred before dishonorable peace in the iudgement of any wise states-man And can it be more glorious to God to haue outward quietnesse in the Church with heresy yea with Antichristianisme then truth with contention True Christian vnitie consists principally in truth of religion without which the greatest agreement is but a conspiracy against God
We are now come to the principall point of your Minor wherein it stands you vpon to play the man and to make good those foure properties on the behalfe of your Church of Rome I must needs say it would grieue a man to take so much paines to so little purpose because if you prooue all that now you vndertake all that is as good as nothing till your Maior and your former syllogismes be better confirmed But yet if you quit your selfe well in this your Church shall be more beholding to you then it was euer yet to any of your fellowes in this question To begin withall you propound the question somwhat fauorably that the Romane Church holds not any dogmaticall points contrary to that which in former times frō the beginning it did hold It were much indeed your Church should teach contrarie doctrines to those it hath heretofore taught I think you can hardly name me any heresy so grosse as to fall frō one contrary to an other Your schoolmen haue set vp a mint wherin they coine vs euery day new distinctions to colour matters in such sort that your new opinions shall neuer appeare to be cōtrary to your old doctrine Hauing thus pitcht the state of the question it seemeth you thought there needed no proofe therof once it is apparent you offer not directly to bring any in this whole discourse but rather endeuour to shew vs the reason of this their agreement because forsooth they acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth Of which in due place But to take your matter as it lies That Church say you which holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold is alwaies one But the Church of Rome holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold Therefore the Church of Rome is alwaies one The question is not which Church is alwaies one in regard of not varying from that which first it held but which is alwaies one according to the meaning of the Nicene Creed that is which Church continueth in the truth of the Gospell For otherwise an hereticall Church might be acknowledged to be one and so a true Church because it remaineth obstinate in that heresie which at first it embraced Therefore your Maior is not true simply but onely vpon this supposition that your Church at the first held the truth But because we gladly acknowledge that the Church of Rome was at the first sound in faith I will leaue your Proposition and come to your Assumption Your Minor is excepted against by vs as you cannot choose but knowe in verie many points and some of them concerning the foundation of Christian Religion For triall whereof we appeale to the Epistle to the Romanes about matters of Faith Grace Iustification Free will Predestination and other that necessarilie depend vpon these Here are you as dumbe as a fish and like a man that had neither eares nor eies passe by this exception without taking any knowledge of it Is this a direct way according to your promise in your title to settle mens minds in all doubts questions and controuersies concerning matters of faith You might as well without all this ado haue told them in one word that the Church of Rome is the true Church and cannot erre For in effect what do you else when after many circumstances the question is brought to this issue whether the Church of Rome hold the same doctrine which in the Apostles time she professed You tell vs she doth without any proofe of that you say or answer to our manifold exceptions I will not enter into particulars as well because I see my answer growes greater then I intended or like of as also for that the seuerall controuersies betwixt you and vs are so many seuerall exceptions against this Assumption For verie pure shame you are driuen to confesse that there are differences of opinion among the learned of your side But to helpe the matter withall you qualifie it with sometimes Sometimes say you Either your reading must be verie little or your boldnesse exceeding great that you mince the matter in this sort with sometimes Answer my former challenge if you can concerning the warres among your schoolemen or doe but look into Cardinall Bellarmines controuersies and then tell me whether these differences be but sometimes or no. What learned writer almost is there of any fame on your part whom Bellarmine doth not dissent from in one point or other I might giue many instances but there is no man that reads him ignorant of that I say and you haue found a shift for this matter by interpreting dogmaticall points of Faith to be matters defined by the Church Wherein we are first to consider how absurdly you limit matters of faith Secondly to shew that euē in these matters so limited there is not alwaies agreement amongst your writers The vse and office of faith as it is onely an assent is to giue vndoubted credit to the whole truth of God by acknowledging it both to be from God and to be true For proofe of this if any man desire it I referre him to the third and forth Chapters of this treatise where you speake of the infalliblenesse and entirenesse of faith But though this be the dutie of faith it hath pleased God to deale graciously with men touching the meanes of their saluation and not to exact vpon absolute necessitie an acknowledging or knowledge of euery particular point of his truth Some things are such as I shewed before as that without them there is no possibilitie of saluation but that whosoeuer is ignorant of them either by neglecting the meanes of knowledge or by hauing no possibility to attaine vnto it he is vtterly shut out for ought we know from the kingdome of heauen Other points there are which euerie man must labour to know and beleeue because they are to that end reuealed by God but yet the simple ignorance of them so it be without contempt or carelesnesse doth not depriue a man of saluation by Christ The former of these two kindes are more properly matters of faith being absolutely necessarie to saluation You speake of matters of faith as though not the points in thēselues but the determination of the Church should make a necessitie of them to saluation So that the not beleeuing of the least matter of ceremonie enioyned by the Church shall be more damnable then the ignorance of the greatest point of Diuinitie being not so determined But I would faine know of you how I shall vnderstand what is to be accounted determined by the Church You confesse afterward that it is questionable whether the chiefe Pastor that is the Pope alone or he with a generall Councel be the Church which cannot erre Doubtlesse if it be
for you all that your faith might not faile As for your Glosse that our Sauiour prayed for him that his faith should not faile at least so far as to teach the Church a false faith what one word is there in the text to anow any such conceit Beside it is apparent that our Sauiour spake not of his Apostleship but of his faith as he was a Christian wherein he had failed finally if our Sauiour had not mightily vpheld him and in this faith was he fit to confirme his brethren as hauing had so extraordinary experience of Satans temptation But if this prayer were made for Peter that he might not teach false doctrine belike either he was more subiect to that danger then the rest of the Apostles or they were left by our Sauiour in a continuall danger of erring which opinion is a very neare neighbour to blasphemie But what a pitifull consequence is this Our Sauiour prayed that Peters faith might not faile therefore the Pope cannot erre All the hold you haue left is in the charge giuen to Peter to feede Christs sheepe that is to be painfull and faithfull in preaching of the Gospell And this interpretation is agreeable to reason that our Sauiour requiring a proofe of Peters loue should charge him to make it manifest by taking paines to feede his sheepe But your exposition is absurd whereby you would haue liuery and seisin of soueraigne authoritie in the Church giuen to him by these words If thou loue me saith our Sauiour according to your exposition take vpon thee the soueraigne gouernement of the Church This were a poore proofe of Peters loue which is there demaunded You will say the charge of feeding was common to all the Apostles but here the Lord speaketh particularly to Peter He doth indeed And do you not see the reason of it Peter because of his grieuous fall had need of such a charge both for his better autorizing and his greater care He speakes chiefly to Peter saith your frier Ferus and to him escecially commends his sheepe that he might vtterly abolish the remembrance of his deniall For because he had fallen more grieuously then the other and had more obstinately denied Christ he stood in need of peculiar charge lest by the remembrance of his deniall he might suspect that the common charge of the Apostleship belonged not to hm He remedies his denying thrice by his confessing thrice saith Theophylact the like hath Austin Peter blatted out his three denial saith Ierome by his three confessions So then all that you haue said of Peters not erring in matter of doctrine is nothing worth yet do we thankfully acknowledge that Peter could not erre in matter of faith but we say that this was no priuiledge peculiar to him but common also to the other Apostles by vertue of their Apostleship Wherein if no man succeed them as questionlesse there are now no Apostles no man can claime a priuiledge of not erring by any right from them or any promise made to them It is needlesse therefore to make many words concerning any successor of S. Peter onely I will signifie how vncertaine your Religion must needs be that depends vpon such points as these You tell vs the Pope cannot erre We beleeue you not because we know he is at the best but a learned man oftentimes not so much sometimes scarce able to vnderstand his grammer You proue he cannot erre because he is Peters successor We deny the consequence Because he may succeed Peter in place and yet not in office of Apostleship whereby Peter had that priuiledge But principally we deny your antecedent that the Pope is Peters successor Now we looke for some certain euident proofe But alas there is none to be had We therfore thus except against this imagined succession First we say there is no word of scripture to proue that euer Peter came at Rome How then can it be a matter of faith to hold that he was Bishop of Rome Do not say you must beleeue the Church for the question is whether you be the true Church or no. Secondly we say farther that it is somewhat vncertaine euen in humane stories whether euer Peter were at Rome or no and if it were certaine yet it were nor a certaintie of faith but of opinion But that the force of your argument and the truth of my answer may the better appeare I wil propound your reason in forme and my exceptions against it Peters successor cannot erre The Pope is Peters successor Therefore the Pope cannot erre To the Maior I answer that he which succeeds Saint Peter in his whole right or in all his priuiledges and namely that of his Apostleship cannot erre but any other successor of his may erre because his priuiledge of not erring is a propertie of his Apostleship The proofe of your Maior is thus to be framed He to whom the keyes are promised for whom Christ prayed that his faith might not faile whom he charged to feed his sheepe cannot erre But to Peters successor Christ promised the keyes for him he prayed that his faith might not faile him he charged to feed his sheepe Therefore Peters successor cannot erre I denie the Maior if you take it in such sense as though the power of not erring had bene conueyed to Peter by reason of this promise prayer and charge otherwise notwithstanding by him Peter I grant that he to whom this promise was made that is Peter could not erre yet was he not free from errour by vertue of this promise prayer or charge as I shewed before The Minor is vtterly false the promise was made in generall to all the Apostles the prayer and charge were peculiar to Peters persō for such especial reason as I shewed before concerning his temptation to denie Christ and his deniall of him But you tell vs that you doe not apply that charge of feeding the sheepe to Saint Peters successors without sufficient authoritie and reason Then questionlesse you must be able to shew vs some warrant for your doing out of the Scriptures For the testimonie or opinion of man is too weake a ground to build a matter of faith vpon And yet you bring vs nothing but the word of a man to perswade vs and scarce that too For whereas you alledge Chrysostome to countenance the matter it is but a copie of your countenance rather to feare then hurt vs. Chrysostome saith that our Sauiour shed his bloud to purchase those sheepe the care whereof he committed to Peter and his successors But who are these successors All ministers or at the least all Bishops If you haue read the place I need not proue it to you Chrysostome had caused Basil to be preferred to a Bishopricke against his will Hereupon Basil complaines of vnkind dealing The other to excuse himselfe vndertakes to shew that he had not onely not hurt him but also done
him a pleasure because he had thereby giuen him occasion and oportunitie to manifest his loue to Christ by feeding of his flocke which he had committed to Peter and his successors Now if Basil in Chrysostoms iudgement had not bene one of Peters successors this had bene a poore reason to perswade him that Chrysostome had not done him wrong For then had he not receiued that charge nor discharged that dutie to testifie his loue to Christ since the loue was to be testified by feeding the flocke committed according to that charge of our Sauiour Leo indeed makes the Bishop of Rome Peters successour But he is too partiall a man to be iudge in his owne cause I denie not but that he was auncient and learned and I am perswaded a holy man too but yet there appeare in him euery where apparent marks of ambition for the aduancing of his owne sea which may perhaps be excused by humane frailtie but cannot serue to proue a matter of so great importance Your principall minor is false also that the Pope is Peters successor It was true of the first Bishops of Rome that they were Peters successors in the ministery of the Gospell wherein they laboured faithfully and carefully But this point of succession died long since with the care to discharge that dutie For these last 800 yeares and vpward the Popes generally haue succeeded the first reuealed Antichrist Boniface the third in pride tyrannie idlenes riot and all kind of excesse no way resembling Saint Peter either in truth of doctrine or painfulnesse in preaching That which you adde of I wot not what necessitie lying vpō God to teach the Church all truth and preserue it from erring because he hath enioyned all men to heare it without excepting or doubting is an idle fancy of your own without any likelihood of truth as hath appeared in my former answers But howsoeuer the Pope alone may erre yet in a generall Councell he cannot I heare you say so but I see no proofe of it not indeed any shew of reason for it Whence ariseth this impossibilitie of erring Not from the Pope For no man will flatter him so shamefully saith Alfonsus as to make him beleeue he cannot erre Perhaps then it resteth in the Councell That cannot be neither For Bellarmine tels vs that Councels be they neuer so generall and neuer so lawfully assembled may erre but onely so farre as they follow instructions giuen them by the Pope But the Pope may erre in giuing instructions and how can freedome from erring ensue vpon his instructions if he himselfe were not certainly freed from erring in giuing them And that this power of not erring is wholy from the Pope no way from the Councell it is euident by this that particular Councels are as free from error as generall if they follow the Popes direction or be confirmed by him But this will be yet more euident if we consider the course that is to be held in Popish Councels First the Pope sends his Legates saith Bellarmine instructed concerning the iudgement of the Apostolicke sea that is with knowledge of his mind in all points that shal be handled and that vpon condition that if the Councell iumpe in opinion with the Pope then they may proceed to make decrees if it do not then no decree may be made vntill the Popes pleasure be further knowne Secondly when the Councell is ended certaine of the Cardinals bring the decrees thereof to the Pope and intreate him that it wil please his Holinesse to confirme them which if he like them he doth if not they are vtterly dasht This being the course how can it be imagined that the Pope should be any more exempted from erring with a Councell then without one I graunt he hath better helpes to discerne of the truth if matters be orderly and throughly debated but we looke for an impossibilitie of erring which cannot be conueyed from the Councell to the Pope because it is not in the Councell but so far as they follow the Popes instructions neither can it be imparted to the Councell by the Pope because he hath it not in himselfe alone neither lastly can it be in Councell and Pope together because then neither can be aboue other but all Papists are of opinion that there must needs be a superioritie in the one though they cannot agrtee in whether howsoeuer Bellarmine takes vpon him to determine it I say then it is meerly impossible that any Papist learned or vnlearned should know that the Pope with a Councell or without a Councell cannot erre as well because the thing in it selfe is false as also for that there is no agreement about the point amongst them and therefore the Papists haue no certaine meanes to keepe them in any true vnitie If you will assigne a difference betwixt sects of hereticks and the Romane Church you must say betwixt other sects of heretiks and the Romane Church which is of all other indeed the most hereticall But your difference is nothing worth For many sects of heresies haue at least for a time bin a flocke cleauing to their pastor and holding certaine grounds true or false whereby their Church was to be determined As for vs whom you strike at we haue the most sure bond that may be to tie vs all together euen the truth of God and are in our seuerall Churches people cleauing to our pastors and such must euery true church be where there is a true Pastor without whom how far a company may haue the name of a Church and in what respect I shewed before The testimonies alledged out of Cyprian are not deliuered by him concerning your Romane Church but spoken of himselfe and his flocke and so generally to be applied to all other Churches in like sort Pupianus to whom he writes that epistle charged Cyprian with dispersing the flocke of Christ by his ouer great seueritie against them that had fallen into idolatry in time of persecution Cyprian answers in his owne defence that though some stubburne and disobedient people refusing to shew themselues truly penitent for so grieuous a sinne left his communion and congregation yet the true Church was not thereby scattered but continued stedfastly cleauing to their pastor namely himselfe The chaffe onely as he said before not the wheate can be seuered from the Church for saking their lawfull Pastor without any iust cause The other place also is of particular Bishopricks not of your imagined vniuersall Church as before A. D. §. 5. § II. That the Romane Church onely is holy Secondly I finde that the Protestants congregation is not holy because not onely most of their men be euidently more wicked then men which both in old time and in latter yeares liued in the Romane Church as those can tell which haue seene both and is confessed by Luther himselfe who saith thus Sunt nunc homines magis vindictae cupidi
reason why we lay challenge to all those men as members of our Church and not of yours They agree say we disproue vs if you can with vs in the substance of doctrine concerning saluation by Iesus Christ and other points of the foundation If you were able to shew the like which is vnpossible yet would it not follow that they were of your Church because no man is in your account a member of your Church but he that agrees with you in all matters defined by your Church wherein I confidently anow and am readie to iustifie it there is no auncient writer in the first thousand years that is of your opiniō though in some one point or other they may agree with your doctrin But indeed we haue no saints canonized by our Church and made mediators betwixt God and vs to rob Iesus Christ of his office and God the Father of thanks due to him for granting our requests And if this want make our Church vnholy the Church in the time of our Sauiour himselfe and of his Apostles was most vnholy in which there neuer was any such practise or doctrine Indeed this is the maine holinesse whereby the learned of your side seeke to proue the truth of your Church and not that other of particular mens conuersation And what say you against our doctrine in this behalfe Forsooth that it cannot of it selfe leade the most precise obseruers of it to holinesse The particulars of our doctrine accused by you shall be defended in their seuerall places now a word or two onely in generall How doth any doctrine leade to holinesse but by propounding the rules of true obedience to God wherein all holinesse consists How doe the arts of Grammer Logicke Arithmeticke and Geometry leade a man to speake reason number and measure well but by deliuering the true rules to these purposes which in themselues direct to perfection in euery one of these professions And can our doctrine be said to be insufficient which acknowledgeth the scriptures of God to be the rule of all righteousnesse and all men bound to liue in obedience to the will of God contained and reuealed in them Do not we teach men that vpon paine of damnation they must labour to keepe all Gods commaundements whatsoeuer Are not our expositions of the commaundements as large in duties prescribed and sins forbidden as yours are Do we or you perswade men that there are some veniall sinnes small breaches of Gods law not to be regarded whereas we shew that euery least transgression of the law is damnable But because you charge vs with particular points which incline men as you say to libertie and loosenesse of life I will come to the examination of them seuerally yet but shortly for that I haue answered them all in another treatife against certaine articles propounded by one of your Popish faction It is vtterly vntrue that our doctrine inclines any man to breake fasting dayes nay rather we enioyne all men to obserue dayes lawfully set apart for fasting with all care and good conscience both for preparation to and cariage in the action As for your dayes of abstaining from flesh we hold the institution of them to be voyd of Religion and vnlawfull as making them in themselues a part of Gods seruice whereas a man for all your fasting may glut and gorge himselfe with wine and all dainties so he eate no flesh and yet keepe your Popish fast without danger of any censure for transgressing your law of fasting Confession of sinnes to a minister we neither commaund as a necessarie dutie nor forbid as a sinne but leaue it free to euery mans conscience as he findeth need of instruction or comfort It is so far from being a remedie of sinne as it is vsed by your church that it rather prouokes men to sinne because they haue so readie and easie a meanes to disburden their consciences as they thinke when they haue sinned A worthy gentleman that hath seene the experience of this matter doubteth not to auouch as much as I say that your people sinne that they may haue somewhat to confesse and confesse that they may returne to sin yea I can name and if need be bring forth one who hath bene faine in confession to accuse himselfe of sinnes which he neuer committed because his ghostly father would not be perswaded but that being a young man and liuing in one of your Popish countries he must needs be defiled with the corruptions of the place and age There is no one point wherein you more bewray your selues to be seruants and not sons of God then this confession against your owne soules that you would neglect the doing of good workes but that you looke to merite euerlasting life by them This motiue to good workes is so base that no man of a free nature would yeeld vnto it The very Philosophers could teach you that vertue is to be loued for vertue and not for any outward respect or consequent that may follow thereupon and God is more dishonored by your opinion of meriting then honored by any your supposed good workes whatsoeuer If you had euer felt what a sharpe spurre to holinesse of life the assurance of forgiuenesse of sinnes is you would neuer thinke that the practise of good workes is lightly esteemed where the mercie of God hath brought peace to the damned conscience And yet we want not that other helpe expectation of reward which we are sure shal be giuen to the least of our good works though not vpon their desert but of the meere mercie of God in Iesus Christ That wicked opinion of merit either before or after grace doth puffe vp the pride of mans nature and diminish the glorie of Gods mercie in Iesus Christ Wages vpon desert is the hire of seruants reward bestowed in loue is the gift of a kind father to a gracious sonne who hath shewed himself willing to performe duties of obedience What men doth it make carelesse but those proud Pharises that stand at the staues end with God and thinke scorne to labour in keeping the commandements vnlesse they may so keep them as to claime heauen vpon desert by keeping of them Is it not enough to stir vp any poore Christian soule to obedience that God will accept of his weake endeuours being performed in truth and singlenesse of heart and reward them with an vnspeakable measure of glorie There is no man vnlesse he be more desirous of his owne glorie then Gods but wil be content and glad to confesse his vnabilitie to performe the whole will of God perfectly and yet striue from time to time to doe as much as his corruption will giue way to It seemes that not diuinitie onely but also common reason failes you Shall I be carelesse in bearing my horse head and holding him vp from falling because I am sure he treads neuer a sure step but will stumble or trip continually do the best I can Put case
make outward profession of beleeuing the Gospell and obeying the Pope though he haue not Christian vertue in him no not so much as that faith he maketh shew of For if this serue to giue vs the right of being true members the Church may well be quite without inward holinesse as a matter not appertaining to the essence or nature of it The last part of your Minor is false the Protestants Churches haue had many thousand holy men euen all that euer held the truth of the Gospell according to the Scriptures and your Church neuer had nor shall haue any one truly sanctified that was wholly a member thereof after your account that is which agreed or agreeth with you in all points of Antichristianisme But I will follow you in your courses and of this say more afterward First you prooue the latter part and dispute against our Church in this sort That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holie by miracle or anie other certaine waie from God hath had no members of it holy But the Protestants Church hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or any other certain way from God Therefore the Protestants Church hath had no members of it holy I denie your Maior because it will follow vpon granting it that no man is truly to be counted holy but he that is declared to be so by miracle or some other certaine way from God For your whole discourse sheweth that this is your meaning where you tell vs that No man can be knowne to be holy but by Gods testimonie of his holinesse by miracle or some other certaine way Of miracles by and by In the meane while I would faine know what these other certaine waies are which God vseth to giue vs assurance of this or that mans holinesse will you tell vs a tale of I know not what reuelations out of your Legends and bookes of examples which are full of such fained apparitions Put case those lewde lies were true tales and that the miracles deuised by some of your complices were worthie of credit surely the number of them that haue bene truely holy hath bene verie small if no more haue bene holy then can pleade such miracles or reuelatiōs for proofe of their holinesse As for those that haue testimony of their holinesse from God in the Scriptures both they are verie few in comparison for so many thousand yeares and that meanes of shewing who are holy ceassed aboue one thousand foure hundred yeares since Now concerning Miracles why should we in these daies gape after them like the vnbeleeuing Iewes for the confirmation of any mans holinesse since we haue no warrant nor example of Scripture to apply them to any such purpose Bring me one example if you can out of the whole Scripture of any miracle wrought to prooue any man to be holy The vse of miracles is the confirmation of doctrine or rather the auowing of mens calling from God that their doctrine may be receiued If I do not the works of my Father saith our Sauiour beleeue me not but if I do then though ye beleeue not me yet beleeue the works that ye may know and beleeue that the Father is in me and I in him These things are written that ye might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ the sonne of God To that end did our Sauiour furnish his Apostles with power to worke miracles As ye go preach saying the kingdome of God is at hand Heale the sicke cleanse the leaprous raise vp the dead Therefore doth Pacianus require miracles of the Nouatians because they brought in a new Gospell And why I pray you do false Prophets that arise shew many great signes and wonders To prooue themselues to be holy No surely if they desire an opinion of holinesse it is that their doctrine might the rather be receiued But to proceed yet further if no man be holy that hath not miracles to testifie his holinesse I doubt much whether any man may be thought holy or no. For it is out of question that wicked men haue wrought miracles either truely or at least which I rather beleeue in shew so that men could not discerne the contrarie Shall I need to name Pharaoes sorcerers Doth not the Scripture tell vs that false Christs and false Prophets shall shew signes and wonders Doth not the Apostle forewarne vs that Antichrist shal come with signes and lying wonders Your owne schooleman Gabriel Biel telleth vs that miracles are wrought often times by the operation of diuels And Lyra is not afraid to say that Now and then there is great deceit vsed in the Church by miracles fained by the Priests or some that are about them for their worldly commoditie Your Church affoordeth vs examples of notorious lies in this kinde I will name two of your principall Saints Saint Bridget auoucheth that it was reuealed to her that the Virgin Marie was preserued from Originall sinne Saint Katharin of Syena had a quite contrarie reuelation From whom rrow you came these miracles Many miracles saith Theophylact haue bene done by the diuell And Austin speaking of such wonders alledged by the followers of Donatus reiecteth all such as deuises of lying men or illusions of deceitfull spirits Let vs heare your great Master Bellarmines iudgement of this matter where he maintaineth miracles as a marke of the Church Till the Church hath approoued those things that are done for miracles saith Bellarmine it is not euident or certaine by assurance of faith of any miracle that it is a true miracle His reason followeth That it is not euident it appeareth because then faith should be euident That it is not certaine by assurance of faith it is manifest because it is not cleare to vs by such assurance as cannot be false that the thing done is not an illusion of the diuell For though the diuell cannot worke any true miracle yet can he in shew do any thing neuer so wonderfull If then there be no meanes to iudge any man holy but by miracles nor any certaintie but by the testimony of the Church to know which are true miracles doubtlesse you can neuer prooue that your Church is holy because there haue bene holy men members of it till you haue first prooued it to be the true Church But of your proofe enough To your Minor I answer that Bellarmine out of whom you tooke all this maketh the holinesse of your men and their miracles two seuerall proofes though vnder the note of holinesse of life Out of him I say farther that the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles yea all that euer were holy were members of the same Church with vs holding the same doctrine that we do for the substance of it You bid me prooue it But by your leaue the duetie of prouing lies vpon the replier whose place you haue taken not
the doctrine of that Church in the fundamentall points of iustification or rather your Church now is fallen away from the truth in that matter Thou saith Bernard to our Sauiour Christ art made vnto me of God righteousnesse shal I feare lest that one be not sufficient for vs both It is not a shore cloake that cannot couer it will couer both thee and me largely being both a large eternall Iustice As for our righteousnes Bernard altogether as we do acknowledgeth it to be true but vnperfect Our humble righteousnesse if there be any is true perhaps saith he but not pure vnlesse perchance we thinke our selues better then our forefathers who said no lesse truely then humbly all our righteousnesse is as the clouts of a menstruous woman For how can there be pure righteousnesse wheras yet there cannot be fault wanting VVe will not striue greatly with you for Francis or Dominicke though many absurd doctrines which your Church now holds were not in their daies nor before them defined by any Councell nor acknowledged by many of your Diuines To proue that these three were of your Church as it is now you alledge that which is left written of their liues and the religious orders of Monkes and Friers founded by them What is written of them and by whom Doth any man in penning their liues affirme that they held the same things in all points that your Church now holds I trow not But if he do who told him so If he liued in their times he was no prophet to foresee what would be maintained in your Church some hundreds of yeares after his death If he be a late writer what reason haue we to giue credit to him in such a matter farther then he is able to make good that he saith by shewing such an agreement betwixt their doctrine and that which now you teach That they haue left certaine orders behind them we denie not which may serue to proue that they thought it needfull to haue people instructed in the knowledge of the Gospell by preaching and some trained vp of purpose to performe that dutie which was the first end of monasteries But it is no easie matter to shew that your Monkes and Friers are now gouerned according to the rules appointed by them nor any inconuenience for vs to graunt that they were of your opinion touching Frieries and monasteries which are matters far from the foundation of Religion as long as there is no opinion of merit or perfection annexed thereunto The second thing you affirme of them is that they were holy men certainly knowne to be so We are willing in charitie to thinke the best we may and therefore are not hastie to condemne them we know not But this our iudgment is not of certaintie vnlesse we may haue better proofe for it then this you bring Their liues you say and miracles testifie as much But first who shall assure vs that they liued so holily and wrought such miracles Wee must haue certaine knowledge that they were holy men who writ and reported these things ere we can vpon their credit beleeue that they so behaued themselues Secondly put case that their liues were as they are said to haue bene haue you forgotten what you writ a little before It cannot be perfitly knowne of men say you who haue truly a good conscience and an vnfained faith and consequently who be truly saints vnlesse it please God to reueale it by miracle or some other certaine way vnto vs. Thirdly if you thinke to strike it dead by the report of their miracles Biel hath taught vs that they are oftentimes wrought by the diuell or shew made of them by Priests as Lyra saith And Bellarmine resolues that we cannot be assured which be true miracles which false but by the iudgement of the Church Then are we very far from certaine knowledge that these men were holy I meane such knowledge as you speake of that may be a ground of faith to teach vs infallibly which is the true Church by the holinesse of the members thereof But Luther and other of our men confessed them to haue bene saints It had bene plaine dealing to haue said holy men whereas you craftily say saints as if Luther had giuen some approbation of your saints canonized But do Luther and Melanckthon hold them for saints because of their miracles or as a thing certainly knowne to them How could they vnderstand what they were but by report They iudged charitably of them according to the opinion that was of them in the world And for my part I am perswaded of Bernard that he was a man of a sincere heart and true sanctification But for Francis if the report of his fiue wounds be true I will not doubt to affirme that he was either a wretched hypocrite in faining that miracle or a silly ideot to be so abused by the diuell The tale lies thus that this same Saint Francis forsooth should haue in his side hands and feete such wounds as our Sauiour had which continued always green and were made in his bodie by I know not what streames that issued from the Crucifixe from the side hands and feete thereof to his side hands and feete This matter being cunningly caried by this Pope-holy saint a woman saint one Katharine of Sene counterfetted the like and with like successe Afterward euen of late yeares there was the like practise by one Marie a Prioresse in Portugall of Saint Dominicks order who caried the matter very cleanly for a time till it pleased God to discouer her cousinage by meanes of certaine of the Nunnes who thought scorne that she should be a saint rather then they and therefore watched her so narrowly and gaue out such suspicious speeches of her that at last the whole packe of her dissembling was opened and she enioyned fauourable penance of fasting and praying c. There is extant a most abhominable treatise of Saint Francis conformitie to Christ wherein hee is at the least equalled if not preferred before him But because this was none of Francis owne doing let it be as it is the blasphemous sinne of your Church Dominicke was little better then his fellow Francis as his Legend sheweth Vpon these premisses thus weakly proued you bring in two conclusions the former that this holinesse being confessed of those three must needs inferre the like confession of the sanctitie of many other who were also professors of the same Romane faith If their profession had bene the cause of their holinesse then you had not gathered much amisse But their holinesse if the two latter had any arose from their true faith in Christ wrought in them by the holy Ghost the author of that faith But there were many in their times as resolute maintainers of the Romish Religion as they who neuer attained to any such opinion of holinesse and the faith you Romanists now professe is in maine points of
or dreame but that the like would haue bene set out about the alteration of religion if it had happened And that if any such Historie reporting any true accident of alteration or change of religion had come out it should partly by Gods prouidence partly by humane diligence haue bene preserued till these our daies especially considering that such records had bene so requisite for discerning the ancient vnchanged true Christian Religion from vpstart noueltie which must needs be false So that we may well conclude that if Christian Religion had since the Apostles time altered in Rome it would haue bene recorded in histories as other things and especially such notable alterations are recorded and those histories would haue bene preserued till this day as other Christian monuments haue bene preserued euen in time of persecution yea euen then when the persecutors made particular enquirie for Christian bookes to burne or consume them But in those ancient Histories there is no mention made of any such alteration of Religion in Rome Wherefore it followeth that there was no such alteration or change at all No such alteration being made it is euident that the same faith and Religion which was in Saint Paules time hath alwaies continued and is there now That which was there then was the true faith and Religion as appeareth by that high commendation which Saint Paule hath left written of it Therefore that which is there now must needs be the onely true holy and Catholicke faith and that companie which professeth it must needs be the Onely true Holy and Catholicke Church Neither can I see what answere can with any probabilitie be forged against this reason For to say that the errours of the Church of Rome crept in by little and little and so for the littlenesse of the thing or for negligence of the Pastours were not espied is an idle fiction alreadie refuted For first those matters which the Protestants call errours in the Romane Church be not so little matters but that lesse euen in the like kinde are ordinarily recorded in stories Nay some of them are in the Protestants conceits and consequently if men of old time had bene Protestants they would haue bene also in their conceits as grosse superstition as Paganisme it selfe namely to adore Christ our Sauiour as being really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament the which Sacrament Protestants hold to be really and substantially but a bare peece of bread Also the Protestants account the vse of the Images to be Idolatrie and say verie ignorantly or maliciously that we adore stockes and stones as the Paynims did The which things could not so haue crept in by little and little but they must needs be espied Neither could the Pastours of the Church at any time be so simple and ignorant so sleepie and negligent but they must needes haue seene and seeing must needes in some sort haue resisted as before I haue said For to imagine all the Pastours of any one age to haue bene in such a deepe Lethargicall and deadly sleepe that they could not onely not perceiue when the enemie should ouer sow Cockle in the hearts of some but also when this Cockle of false beleefe should grow to outward action and especially to publicke practise the which could not be but most apparent to imagine I say all the Pastors to be so simple and sleepie not then to marke or not to resist is rather the dreame of a proud man in his sleepe who is apt to thinke all men fooles beside himselfe then a iudictall conceit of a waking man of any vnderstanding who ought to thinke of things past either according to the veritie recorded in stories or when this faileth by comparing the likelihood of that which hee thinketh was done by men of that time with that which most men of their qualitie would do in like case Finally if these things were so that the church did by this means for so long space in such important matters vniuersally erre Neglexerit officium Spiritus sanctus as Tertullian speaketh refuting the like cauill of heretickes the holy Ghost should haue neglected his office which is as I haue proued before out of Scripture not to permit the vniuersall Church to fall into error but to suggest vnto it all things that Christ said vnto it and to teach it all truth A. W. Catholicknesse especially as you vnderstand it is not such a propertie of the Church but the Church may be without it as it is plaine by that Church which was in our Sauiour Christs time onely in the land of Iewrie and after his death till the Church was scattered abroade in the world Yet let vs see what you bring to prooue that our Church is not Catholicke If there cannot be assigned a visible companie of men professing the same faith which the Protestants do euer since Christs time continuing without interruption till now then the Protesiants Church is not Catholicke But there cannot be such a companie assigned Therefore the Protestants Church is not Catholicke I denie the consequence of the maior First because that may be Catholicke which is not visible as the Church of the elect is dispersed in all places and yet no where to be seene Secondly because Catholicknesse belongs neither to time nor doctrine but to place and persons Thirdly because it is not required that the same faith in all points should be professed which you meane by the same faith but onely the same in matters fundamentall I grant your minor that we cannot assigne you any such companie though we doubt not but that there was alwayes such a companie greater or lesse as appeares by them which from time to time haue by their writings or sufferings maintained the substance of that doctrine which we now professe To proue that our doctrine is not vniuersal you say it chiefly consisteth of negatiues whereas you cannot be ignorant that we hold all the articles of the creed and that in the same sense as you do saue onely in some few differences about the vnderstanding of beleefe what it is to beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost and what it is to beleeue the Church and in what respect the Church is called holy and Catholicke and what the Church is that we beleeue But we denie some things that some auncient writers haue held Doe you follow them in all points You will not say so for very shame But our Church is truly Catholicke because it is not tied to the Iewes or Ierusalem no nor to any other place or persons but common to all that will beleeue in Iesus Christ VVhat get you if you proue your Church to be Catholicke since that alone without the two former points alreadie disproued cannot make any companie a true Church But neither can you proue your Church to be Catholicke let your argument speake That Church which is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the
Aposiles without change is Catholicke The Romane Church is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the Apostles without change Therefore the Romane Church is Catholicke If to make a Church Catholicke it be required that she continue in the doctrine of the Apostles how did you before denie that the doctrine of the Apostles is a necessary and certaine marke of the true Church But if you leaue this out and affirme that Church to be Catholicke which is vniuersall in doctrine and thinke it not needfull that the doctrine professed be the Apostles I denie your maior The reasons of my deniall I deliuered in the former Chapter when I shewed that truth of doctrine was the most proper and true marke of the Church But whatsoeuer your maior be your minor is euidently false in euery part of it The very foundations of the doctrine of the Apostles are ouerthrowne by your Church in the heresies you hold concerning predestination iustification free will the insufficiencie of the Scriptures and the headship of Antichrist your Pope Neither do you onely faile in the doctrine of the Apostles but in your vniuersalitie of time For how can that doctrine be said to haue bin always which was not taught by our Sauiour and his Apostles As for vniuersalitie in regard of the ample vniformitie of your doctrine if you speake of your Churches determination many points of great moment are not as yet defined by it for example take those maine questions whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or no whether he haue without a Councell priuiledge of not erring or no whether there be any merit of congruitie or no and such like Yea your Church denieth the chiefe point of all which in the Apostles time was held by all true Christians that iustification is by faith without the workes of the law I forbeare to shew the reasons of that I affirme because any man may setch them out of my former answer in this and the last Chapter I looked for proofe of your minor but you were too wise to vndertake a matter so vnpossible and therefore in stead of that you challenge vs to shew and proue the contrarie forgetting that it is the repliers part to proue and not the answerers But I pray you tell me in earnest did you neuer heare of any particulars whereby we except against your doctrine as none of the Apostles What a vaine flourish is this then to demaund new proofes of vs and neuer once assay to answer those we haue alreadie brought But I haue made answer to your challenge in my refutation of your proofe that your Church is one Yea our mens bookes are full of these points and proofes both out of Scriptures and Fathers As for your brag of being able to shew diuers points that we hold or denie otherwise then the true Church did in the time of the Apostles it is well knowne that in most controuersies betwixt vs you are faine to flie from the Scriptures of God to the writings of men and deuise interpretations to serue your turne In some points we denie not but that we dissent from the opinion of some writers of former ages but that we go against the iudgement of the whole Church before it became Antichristian neither we graunt nor you can proue And euen for those times of error we want not the testimonie of learned men to auouch our doctrine against your heresies But you call vpon vs to set downe the point of doctrine the author the time the place what companie did oppose themselues against it and who they were that did continue in the profession of the former faith What needs all this ado Wil it not serue the turne if we make it manifest that your doctrine is contrary to that the Apostles taught vnlesse we can shew you when euery one of your errors was first hatched What if the Scribes and Pharises had demaunded the like questions of our Sauiour Christ touching their errors reproued by him There is no doubt but that as he was God he could haue declared euery one of these particulars but do you thinke he would haue fed their foolish humor in this case and not haue contented himselfe with shewing that it was not so from the beginning Some of our Ministers haue truly and wittily refuted this conceit of yours by shewing how absurd it is for a man that is sicke of the plague a surfet or any such disease to denie that he is so diseased because the Physition cannot tell him at what time and in what place vpon what occasion in what companie he first tooke the infection or distempered his bodie by ill diet Is it a good plea against plaine and sound euidence whereby I proue that such a Lordship ought to be mine that I cannot shew when and how I lost the possession of euery seuerall close and meadow farme and cottage But to take away all iust excuse from you our writers haue shewed the first beginnings of many of your errors and might haue done of more if al were extant that hath bin written and your inquisitors and censurers had not as you call it purged indeed corrupted and maimed the writings of former ages wheresoeuer they made against you if you could light on them before they were too well knowne in the world This challenge hath as much reason as the former We must proue that there haue not bene some in euery countrey where the Gospell hath bene professed that haue held your Romane faith Or rather must not you proue your Catholicknesse by such induction But we confesse it to be likely that the diuell hath from time to time sowed some of your tares amongst the Lords wheate But that your whole faith as now you hold it was euer maintained any where till the last Councell of Trent we challenge you to proue if you can Surely the Greeke Church euen till this day dissenteth from you in many and some no small matters as your Popes supremacie that I may not name those Christians who are in precious Iohns countrey in Armenia and other parts of the world to whom your doctrine is as little knowne in a manner as ours is to those Indians you spake of Amongst whom for ought you can proue or know to the contrary there may be and in all liklihood are some to whom the Lord hath giuen grace to rest wholly vpon Iesus Christ for pardon of their sinnes without any mingling of their owne workes with Christs to procure them the inheritance of heauen All such we challenge to be of our Church though they agree with you in many of your errors through their ignorāce of the Scriptures As for our countrey of England which like that harlot you call deare as oft as you conceiue hope of bringing it into subiection to the Pope but otherwise wish it wholly destroyed as shee did the child it neither was conuerted by your proud Monke Austine but peruerted rather
yet saith Thomas they had not perfect faith because some of them were by false Apostles seduced so that they thought the cermonies of the law were to be ioyned with the Gospell He doth not saith your interlinear Glosse commend their faith as perfect but their readinesse and desire to embrace Christ All which notwithstanding we willingly graunt that the Romane Church was at that time and long after a true Church what gather you of this graunt I hope you will not say that therefore it must needs be a true church still But we shal better vnderstand your meaning by that which followeth There is nothing you Papists are more afraid of then to be drawne to iustifie your doctrine by Scripture Therefore you alwayes keepe aloofe and tell vs of the Church the Church as the Iewes did Ieremie of the Temple The Romane Church say you was once a true Church Who denieth it Therefore is it so still I say you that it is vnlesse you can shew at what time it departed from the true faith Did you neuer know any man who in his youth had blacke haire and now being old is all white headed Put case I would stand verie stifly vpon your argument and say that his head is blacke still and vrge you to tell me when the first haire changed white Would you answer me or laugh at me for my folly But such changes in faith say you would haue bene resisted or at least recorded by some and you prooue it thus If no heresie as contrarie to truth as blacke is to white was euer heard of to haue arisen without noting or resisting nor any such could now possibly so arise then no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church But no such heresie was euer heard of to haue arisen nor can so arise without noting or resisting Therefore no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church That I may answer directly to your Syllogisme remember which I also noted before that you take it as granted that there was neuer any noting or resisting of errours but there is yet record remaining of it Whereas we gessing reasonably of that which is past by that we see euerie day perswade our selues that your Popish inquisitors and censurers haue raced and destroyed many records wherein the arising of your errors and the resistance made against them haue bene noted I would speake more of this matter but that almost euerie childe knoweth how shamefully and lewdly you deale euerie day with your owne mens writings who forced by the euidence of truth here and there giue witnesse to our doctrine in their bookes We see not then why we may not yeeld this conclusion for ought that it can aduantage you or hurt vs. All such errours doubtlesse haue bene noted and resisted though the records thereof be perished defaced or destroyed by your Antichristian Prelates Secondly though it were granted to be true that No heresie as contrarie to the truth as blacke is to white euer could arise without being noted or recorded yet might your Popish errours haue stollen in for the most part vnperceiued Because they were not apparently contrary to the knowne truth as the absurd examples you bring of sacrificing an Oxe or worshipping a Cow are Poperie as the Apostle saith of it vnder the title of Antichristianisme is a mysterie of iniquitie which began to worke in his daies and by little and little with colourable pretences wrought it selfe into the Church till it came to that height in which all the world now seeth it I might exemplifie this matter in that great point of your Popes licentious and vnlimited authority how it began by reason of the place Rome being the chiefe seat of the Empire how it grew by the fauour of the Emperours and the worthinesse of some Bishops of that sea and so crept on till it had gotten strength to trample the Emperours themselues vnder foote It is said by way of prouerbe that Rome was not built in one day The speach is as true of your Popes Romish gouernment as of Romulus first founding the Citie The occasions and pretences of your Popes greatnesse were reasonable faire to shew and seemed to promise I know not what securitie to religion and peace to Christendome but the euenthath shewed that the one by it was for a time quite ouerthrowne the other partlie destroyed and altogether brought into great hazard But I may not enlarge my answer to farre Our Historiographer whom you finde fault with no doubt spake in that iust indignation he conceiued against the intollerable pride of the Romish Monke Austin in pittie of that bloodshed which insued vpon his finding fauour with the Saxon kings whom he caused to imbrew their hands in the bloud of many thousand poore Christians because forsooth they would not submit themselues to his insolencie If his speech sound vnpleasantly in your eares how would you haue liked that of our Sauiour in the Gospell VVo be to you Scribes and Pharisies Hypocrites For ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made you make him two fold the childe of hell more then your selues For saith Ierome he that before did but simply erre in his ignorance by your lewd conuersation is driuen from his profession backe againe to Gentilisme Surely they that before were heathen and might by Gods blessing haue bene wonne to the truth of the Gospell through the preaching of the Britans and their humble conuersation by this Austin lost the opportunitie and became persecutors of true Christians for your pride and superstition with which afterward the whole nation was miserably ouerwhelmed and at last almost perished vnder the Normans But to giue you some better satisfaction touching this point heare I pray you in a few words what one of your owne writers saith It is a thing full of horror saith Bucchingerus either to reade or remember that the Popes of Rome practised such tyranny one against another O how are they degenerated from their Ancestors It could not be that in the time of such cruelty there should be any regard had of Christian pietie Let no man then maruaile if some abuses and peruerse opinions crept into the Church There was great ignorance of the Scripture and loue of superstition The Lord sending men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies because they had not receiued the loue of the truth You presse vs here as you thinke with some probabilitie that if there had bene any alteration of religion it would certainly haue bene recorded But how should it haue bene recorded when it was not seene You dreame of a sodain change where as the alteration grew from good to bad yet with shew of some goodnesse and from bad to worse so nicely that few or none could discerne it Your probabilities are two The former in this manner If there could not a little
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
may for all the priuiledge of succession doubtles succession doth not by the nature of it free a man from erring But they cannot all vniuersally erre What is that to purpose vnlesse this impossibilitie of erring proceed from succession Let vs draw your reason into forme that we may the better see the force or weaknesse of it If our Sauiour haue appointed a succession of Pastors that the Church may not be caried away with euery blast of doctrine then succession and truth go together But our Sauiour hath appointed Pastors to that purpose Therefore succession and truth go together Now the weaknesse of your reason easily bewrayes it selfe the consequence of your maior is so feeble Shall I shew it you euidently in a like matter If God appointed Dauid and his successors to rule his people according to his wil and word that they might truly serue him then whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God But God did appoint Dauid and his successors to that end Therefore whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God I shall not neede to make any further answer to your maior vnlesse perhaps I may bring the like reason from Gods appointing a succession of Priests and Leuites in the Church of the Iewes to the very same end that the people might know and do his will which intent of his notwithstanding was often made voyde both by Priests and people Yet do not we say that the world hath at any time bene without true Pastors and their flockes in some one place or other in a greater or lesse number who haue taught and beleeued the true faith of Iesus Christ in all points fundamentall without distinct beleefe whereof no man can be saued But we denie that either all or any Pastor hath this priuiledge because of his succession yea we affirme that a Christian congregation where the ordinarie meanes cannot be had may chuse and authorize any man able and fit to teach for their Minister and the truth of God may be in such companies preserued without any plea of not erring by reason of succession established by vertue of our Sauiours appointment To that of Nazianzen I answered before he speaketh not of the vniuersall Church as you falsly auouch but of seuerall congregations as his very words shew Order saith he hath decreed in Churches not in the vniuersall Church that the flocke and the Pastor should be diuers the flocke one thing the Pastor another or that some should be the flocke othersome the shepheards You may say what you will and be neuer a whit the nearer if you bring no better proofe then yet you haue done Saint Augustine biddeth the Donatists number the Priests and see who haue succeeded one another in the Bishopricke of Rome What conclude you from thence That the Church of Rome was at that time Apostolicke in regard of personall succession Who denieth it But it followeth not hereupon either that it is still in that sort Apostolicke about which we will not striue or which is the principall matter that it hath therefore such Apostolicknesse as is required to make a true Church namely truth of doctrine which must needs be meant by Augustine in the words that immediatly follow That is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not For it is more then absurd to make personall succession the rocke on which the Church is builded and against which hell gates cannot preuaile It was a likely argument against the Donatists that in so long a succession there had bene neuer a Donatist which Saint Augustine himselfe in another place concludeth after he hath reckoned vp all the Romane Bishops from Linus to Anastasius then liuing In the ranke of this succession saith Augustine there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist This testimonie of Irenaeus was neuer of your owne reading in him as the corrupt alledging of it perswadeth me I will set it downe as it is in the author himselfe By this ordination and succession saith Irenaeus the tradition of the Apostles hath come to vs And this is a most full demonstration that it is one and the same quickning faith which hath bene preserued and truly taught in the Church from the Apostles till now What one word or letter is there in this sentence to prooue that your Church of Rome at this day is Apostolicke or that bare personall succession is enough to make a Church Apostolicke Rome in Irenaeus time was an Apostolicall Church because it had preserued and truly taught successiuely Bishop after Bishop the doctrine which was deliuered by the Apostles Is it therefore Apostolicke now when it hath ouerthrowne the verie foundation of the Apostles doctrine I maruell what Apostolicke Churches they are with which you communicate whereas you say that there is no Church that hath succession from the Apostles but yours Your Monks of Burdeaux draw the vniuersall Church to the communion of the Romish Church It was indeed a testimonie of the truth to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches in Tertullians time while the truth was for the substance of it preserued amongst them But let vs apply this to our purpose what would you prooue by it that the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Here is no mention nor thought of your Church in particular But Tertullian saith it is a testimonie of truth for a man to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches It was then a testimonie but now those Churches are decayed or if some of them remaine amongst the Grecians wil you grant that all they hold is true How will you prooue that Tertullians generall speech belongeth more to your Church then to those of the Greeks Tertullian telleth you afterward that contrarietie to the Apostles doctrine may conuince Churches not to be Apostolicke though they alledge succession from the Apostles But his opinion may sufficiently appeare by that which hath bene formerly alledged out of him and the truth of this whole question by your discourse and my answer to it A. D. CHAP. XVII The Conclusion of the whole discourse A. W. The conclusion of your whole discourse as your selfe expound it in your preface is this that the faith which the authoritie of the Romane Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But this Chapter is such as that you might rather terme it a recapitulation then a conclusion of your discourse For the greatest part of it by farre is spent in a needlesse repetition of that which was before deliuered and that which should be indeed your conclusion is scarce signified in it A. D. §. 1. Now to make an end considering all this which I haue said and prooued to wit that there is but one infallible entire faith the which is necessarie to saluation to all sorts of men the which faith euerie one must learne by some knowne
infallible and vniuersall rule accommodate to the capacitie of euerie one the which rule cannot be any other but the doctrine and teaching of the true Church the which Church is alwaies to continue visible vntill the worlds end and is to be knowne by these foure markes Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke the which markes agree onely to the Romane Church that is to say to that companie which doth communicate and agree in profession of faith with the Church of Rome whereupon followeth that this Church or companie is the onely true Church of which euerie one must learne that faith which is necessarie to saluation Considering I say all this I would demaund of the Protestants how they can perswade themselues to haue that faith which is necessarie to saluation sith they will not admit the authoritie and doctrine of the Church of which onely they ought to learne this faith Or how they can as some of them do challenge to themselues the title of the true Church sith their companie hath neuer one of the foure markes which by common consent of all must nedes be acknowledged for the true markes of the Church How can their congregation be the true Church which neither is One because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie nor Holy because neither was there euer any man of it which by miracle or any other euident testimony can be prooued to haue bene truly holy neither is their doctrine such as those that most purely obserue it do without faile thereby become holy nor Catholicke because it teacheth not all truths that haue bene held by the vniuersall Church in former times but denieth many of them neither is it spred ouer all the Christian world but being diuided into diuers sectes euerie particular sect is contained in some corner of the world Neither hath it bene in all times euer since Christ but sprong vp of late the first founder being Martin Luther an Apostata a man after his Apostasie from his professed religious order knowne both by his writings words deeds and manner of death to haue bene a notable ill liuer Nor Apostolicke because the preachers thereof cannot deriue their Pedegree lineally without interruption from any Apostle but are forced to beginne their line if they will haue any from Luther Caluin or some latter How can they then brag that they haue the true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke faith sith this is not found in any companie that differeth in doctrine from the onely true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church For if it be true which Saint Austin saith that in ventre Ecclesiae veritas manet the truth remaineth in the bellie of the Church it is impossible that those who are disioyned by difference of beleefe from that companie which is knowne to be the true Church should haue the true faith For true faith as before hath bene prooued is but one wherefore he that differeth in beleefe from them which haue the true faith either he must haue a false faith or no faith at all Againe one cannot haue true faith vnlesse he first heare it according to the ordinarie rule of Saint Paule saying Fides ex auditu faith commeth of hearing but how can one heare true doctrine of faith sine praedicante without one to preach truly vnto him And how should one preach truly at least in all points nisi mittatur vnlesse he be sent and consequently assisted by the spirit of God Now how should we know that Luther or Caluin or any other that will leap out of the Church leaue that company wherin is vndoubted succession and by succession lawfull mission or sending from God how should we I say know that these men teaching a new and contrarie doctrine were indeed sent of God Nay certainly we may be most sure that they were not sent of God For sith Almightie God hath by his Sonne planted a Church vpon earth which Church he would haue alwaies continue vntill the worlds end and hath placed in it a visible succession of lawfull ordinarie Pastours whom he will with the assistance of himselfe and his holy Spirit so guide that they shall neuer vniuersally faile to teach the true faith and to preserue the people from errours we are not now to expect any to be sent from God to instruct the people but such onely as come in this ordinarie manner by lawfull succession order and calling according as S. Paule saith Nec quisquam sumit sibi honorem sed qui vocatur à Deo tanquam Aaron Neither doth any man take to himselfe the honour but he that is called of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and with peculiar consecration as we reade in Leuiticus cap. 8. To which accordeth that which we reade 2. Paralip 26. where Azarias said to king Ozias Non est tui officij Ozia vt adoleas incensum Domino sed Sacerdotum hoc est filiorum Aaron qui consecrati sunt ad huiusmodi ministerium egredere de sanctuario c. It is not thy office O Ozias to offer incense to our Lord but it is the office of Priests to wit of the sonnes of Aaron who are consecrated to this function or ministerie go out of the Sanctuarie Which bidding when Ozias contemned and would not obey he was presently stricken with a leprosie and then being terrified feeling the punishment inflicted by our Lord he hastened away as in the same place is declared By which places we may learne that it doth not belong to any one to do priestly functions as to offer incense or sacrifice to God or take vpon them the authoritie to preach and instruct the people but onely to Priests called visibly and consecrated for this peculiar purpose as Aaron and his children were For though the priesthood of the Pastors of the new law be not Aaronicall yet it agreeth with the Priesthood of Aaron according to S. Paul his saying in the foresaid place in this that those that come to it must not take the honor of themselues but must be called vnto it of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and by peculiar consecration In which ordinarie maner whosoeuer cometh he may be truly called Pastor ouium a Pastor of Christs flocke because intrat per ostium he entereth in by the doore to wit by Christ himselfe who first visibly called consecrated and sent immediately the Apostles and the Apostles by authoritie receiued from him did visiblie by imposition of hands call consecrate and send others and those in like manner others from time to time without interruption vntill these present men who now are Priests of the Catholicke Romane Church These therefore enter in by Christ who is the doore and therefore these be true Pastours and whosoeuer entereth not thus in at the doore but commeth in another way our Sauiour telleth vs how we should account of him when he saith Qui non intrat per ostium in ouile ouium
yeares after Christ found out the true faith and the right way to heauen haue all the rest liued in blindnesse darknesse and errour consequently are you onely they that please God and shall be saued for as I haue prooued before without true and entire faith none can be saued and were then all the rest so many millions your owne forefathers and ancestors many of which were most innocent men and vertuous liuers and some of which shed their bloud for Christs sake were I say all these hated of God did all these perish were they all damned shall all these endure vnspeakable paines in hell for euer O impious cruell and incredible assertion Nay surely I am rather to thinke that you are vnwise who pretending to trauell toward the happie kingdome of heauen and to go to that glorious citie the heauenly Ierusalem wil leaue the beaten street in which all those haue walked that euer heretofore went thither who by miracles sometimes as it were by letters sent from thence haue giuen testimonie to vs that remaine behind that they are safely arriued there You I say are vnwise that will leaue this way and will aduenture the liues not onely of your bodies but of your soules in a path found out of late by your selues neuer tracked before in which whosoeuer haue yet gone God knowes what is become of them sith we neuer had letter of miracle or any other euident token or euer heard any word from them to assure vs that they safely passed that way me thinks I may account you most vnwise men that will aduenture such a precious iewell as your soule is to be transported by such an vncertaine and dangerous way I must needs thinke that sith there is but one right way and that the way of the Catholicke Church is a sure and approued safe way you are very vnaduised who with the aduenture of the irreparable losse of your dearest and peerlesse treasure your soule will leaue this safe and secure way to seeke out a new vncertaine and perillous way I must needs think sith the Catholick Romane Church is as I haue proued the light of the world the rule of faith the pillar sure ground of truth that you leauing it leaue the light and therefore walke in darknesse forsaking it forsake the direct path of true faith and therefore are misled in the mist of incredulitie into the wildernesse of misbeleefe and finally that you hauing thus lost the sure ground of truth do fall into the miry ditch of many absurdities and must needs be drowned in the pit of innumerable errors and erring thus from the way the veritie and the life which is Christ Iesus residing according to his promise in the Catholicke Church must needs vnlesse you wil which I hartily wish returne to the vnitie of the same Church incur your owne perdition death and damnation of body and soule from which sweet Iesus deliuer you and vs all to the honor and perpetuall praise of his holy name Amen A. W. To these idle questions of yours I answer first in generall that we may with reason enough perswade our selues that we haue the true faith and true Churches because we see that the very quintessence of Bellarmines sophistry distilled againe in your limbeck is of no force to purge out or alter such perswasion This appeares in the particulars viewed and examined To which I answer seuerally in a word The doctrine of the true Church we gladly admit and receiue yet not vpon the authoritie thereof but because it is agreeable to the Scriptures If you ask vs then why we are perswaded that we haue true faith we returne you answer that we are therefore so perswaded because we finde that which we beleeue auowed in Scripture and confirmed in our hearts by the witnesse of the holy Ghost Hereupon we conclude as well we may that we are members of the true Church our congregations true Christiā churches For wheras you charge some of vs but craftily forbeare to name them with chalenging to our selues the title of the true Church it is a slaunder of yours and no challenge of ours saue only thus far that we affirme there is no true Church which agreeth not with vs in the fundamentall points of the Gospell But we are far frō appropriating the Church to our congregations as if all true Churches depended vpon vs according to that you teach of your Romish synagogue And whereas you condemne vs for no true Churches because we want the markes of true Churches we say that you take those for markes which are not so as you vnderstand them and farther that euery one of them rightly conceiued is to be found in our seuerall congregations It is one because it holdeth that one meanes of saluation preached by the Apostles euen faith in Iesus Christ without mingling of any workes therewith of the ceremoniall or moral law before or after grace to deserue iustification of congruitie or euerlasting life of condignitie The contrary errors held by your synagogue make and proue it to be no true Church But how foolish is the reason you bring against vs The Protestants Church is not one because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie It hath meanes sufficient viz. the truth of the Scriptures and teaching of the spirit of God Put case it wanted meanes to continue vnitie would it follow thereupon that it is not One Surely no more then that a man is not aliue because he hath not means to keepe himselfe aliue Our Church hath had and by the blessing of God hath many holy men and women whose workes haue giuen and dayly do giue cleare testimonies of their inward graces Indeed we want vnholy legendaries to deuise and publish monstrous lies for miracles by which you haue gotten the aduantage of vs in the conceits of them to whom God hath sent strong delusions that they might beleeue lies But wisedome is iustified of her children though you proud Pharises despise her Our doctrine teacheth nothing but holinesse that we were chosen to be holy that we are freed from our sinnes to the end we might sinne no more that we are washed iustified and sanctified by the bloud of Christ buried with him in baptisme that we might die to sinne raised from sinne to righteousnesse by the power of his resurrection that holines of life is a part of our glorie without which no man shall euer see God that he which saith he is iustified and shewes himselfe to be vnsanctified deceiues his owne soule and is in the state of damnation Onely we neither giue the glorie of our saluation to our selues as if by the power of our freewill without speciall inclination thereof by the holy Ghost we had receiued faith which other men haue refused though they might haue embraced it as well as we for ought God did for or to vs more then for or to them nor looke to merit heauen by the worthinesse of our workes as
if it were the wages of seruants and not the inheritance of children The vniuersal Church as you speake of it is a meere name without any thing answerable to it in nature That which was generally held while the Churches of Christ were not subiect to Antichrist concerning the substance of Religion by which true and false Churches are to be iudged we gladly and constantly maintaine The errors which some men defended and corrupted the Churches withall we refute and reiect But it is no marke of the true Church to hold all that hath bene generally maintained in true Churches but the dutie of it to acknowledge for true whatsoeuer was taught by the Apostles and is recorded in Scripture How far our Church is spread it passeth your skill truly to affirme and we may with good reason perswade our selues that it is in all places where the Gospell is preached and the Scriptures knowne because dayly experience sheweth that it hath some members in those countries where your bloudie and tyrannous butchery of Inquisition doth most rule and vnder the nose of your grand Antichrist in the citie of Rome But it is enough to make it Catholicke that it acknowledgeth it selfe to be common both to Iew and Gentile not tied to any country people or person whatsoeuer as yours is to the Pope and Rome We are not ashamed of Martin Luther whom it pleased God to vse admirably if not miraculously to rake from vnder the ashes the light of the Gospell couered and choked with your errors and superstitions Not as if it had bin al that while out of the world but as one of your owne fellowes speakes of it as being in the eclipse ouershadowed and darkned with the thicke mist of your Popish decrees decretals and schoolmens trickes and other such leud trumpery Our Church that is the true Church of Christ was all that time in the world but not to be seene of euery man though from time to time there were still found some who durst maintaine the truth of Christ against your Antichristian heresies Luthers writings words deeds and manner of death were such as might manifest to all men both his true zeale of the glory of God and Gods especiall fauour to him whatsoeuer such lying sycophants as Prateolus faine If we would stand vpon Apostolicknesse in succession what haue you that we want saue onely that you continue in succession of error longer then we do But it is an idle plea to auouch personall succeeding where there is manifest contrarietie in doctrine by which as we heard out of Tertullian howsoeuer you brag of Apostolicknesse you may be proued not to be Apostolicall We differ not in doctrine touching the fundamentall points of Religion from any true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church neither doth your synagogue agree with any such Therfore wheras you demand how we can brag that we haue true faith which is not to be found out of the true Church we answer you as oft we haue done that we are sure the faith we hold is true because it is agreeable to the Scriptures and being so we cannot be out of the true Church as long as we are in the true faith True faith cannot be had by any light or discourse of nature but onely by reuelation from God For neither eye hath seene nor eare hath heard nor the heart of man can imagine what the meanes are whereby God decreed in himselfe to saue those whom he hath chosen to glory Now it was not the purpose of God in these latter times as in the first before the law to reueale his will immediatly from heauen but he sent his Son in the nature of man and that Sonne his Apostles to giue knowledge of those means of saluation both by preaching for that present age wherein they liued and also by writing for that age and all that were to succeed till the end of the world This is all that the Apostle teacheth in the place alledged by you Yet we denie not that the principall ordinary means to bring men to faith is the ministery of man by word of mouth expounding the word wil of God according to the Scriptures First then all men to whom the Scriptures are vouchsafed haue meanes of hearing For in them they may if they will heare men appointed by God speake to their instruction and saluation Secondly the same God hath ordained that besides the former teaching there should be certaine men set apart and deputed for the ministery whose dutie it is to preach in their seuerall charges the word of truth This setting apart deputing is that sending which is now required and is to be performed by such as are shall be authorized to that purpose Thirdly for our particular case we are to vnderstand that Luther and these other worthies by whose ministery it pleased God to reuiue the knowledge of the Gospell decayed were authorized to preach by your congregation which was at that time in apparence the true Church of God Therefore were they sent if your church haue any sending and according to their calling they labored in opening the truth of God as it is reuealed in the Scriptures Thus by the gracious mercie of God it came to passe that they teaching the word of truth found diuers both men and women whose hearts the Lord by his spirit opened so that they embraced the loue of the truth deliuered by them and accepted them for their pastors and submitted themselues to become their flockes By this meanes they had both a generall authoritie to preach from that companie which by profession was the Church and also a particular charge of those who were now become indeed in regard of their professed faith a true Church of God We haue then in our Churches for the late reforming of them first your calling such as it was and secondly the approbation of true Christians of which true Churches consist Therefore by your owne rule since we haue some amongst vs that are sent we may also haue faith and true faith though we abhor your Antichristian heresies To what purpose is this idle discourse but to shew your owne errors We neither looke for nor allow any opinion of extraordinary sending from God because we haue no warrant for any such in the Scriptures But wee say the restorers of the Gospell in this last age had ordinary allowance of that Church which bare the shew of the true Church and professed the beleeuing of the Gospell which is the foundation of the Church But you require peculiar consecration because it pleased God to appoint such a course for the Priesthood of the Law Do you not know that the consecrating and annointing of Aaron was a part of the ceremoniall law signifying the annointing of the spirit which our Sauiour was to receiue to whom according to those shewes the Lord gaue the spirit without measure The consecration that now remaines is nothing but the setting a part
this possibilitie tooke effect in me I may thanke my selfe more then God so that by this doctrine the glorie of euerie particular mans saluation is more due to the partie saued then to God the Sauiour Now on the contrarie side if that we teach be true the losse falles on mans part and not vpon Gods Is any man drawne out of the Iawes of hell and damnation The whole glorie redounds to God It was he that prouided meanes of saluation it was he that gaue me in particular knowledge of that meanes It was he that when I was as vntoward and vnwilling to be saued as the most damned reprobate wrought me to beleeue can I euer be vnmindfull or vnthankfull by inclining my heart to like and accept of his grace and faith in Christ But in the meane while I loose the commendation and the glory of vsing the grace of God well by my free-will O Adam Adam earth and ashes how fast doth that pride of nature whereby thou wast destroyed in thy selfe though in thee it were not naturall cleaue to euerie one of thy posteritie We had rather be thought able to gouerne our selues then be gouerned by God It is more pleasing to vs to hazard our saluation vpon the nice choise of our owne free-will then to be assured of it by the mercie of God working in vs this choise to will O that as we are all partakers of Adams pride so we might also partake with his repentance and faith Would Adam trow ye if it might be put to his choise againe venture vpon his owne free-will though he were as pure as euer he was rather then rest secure vpon Gods almightie and most certaine protection No no blessed soule he knoweth by wofull experience though by Gods vnspeakable goodnesse to his and our greater glorie that he and he only is out of danger who resignes himselfe into Gods hands to be disposed of at his gracious pleasure Why refuse we to be like to Adam in this Will we follow him in that onely of which onely he is ashamed Is it not more glorie to arise with him then to haue fallē with him O why do we euery day renew the memorie of his fault by committing the like Doth the brightnesse of the truth in these points dazle your eies Me thinks I see many of you offering to presse forward as it were to take the kingdome of heauen the doctrine of the Gospell by violence why recoile you Why quaile you on a sodaine The bare name of the Church not onely stayeth you but beateth you backward The Romish Church cannot erre VVho telleth you so Surely they that can erre your Priests and Iesuits Giue me leaue I pray you to question with you a little and for a minute of an hower be content to make vse of that reason and knowledge which God hath giuen you without forestalling your iudgements by preiudice of the authoritie of the Church Doth it not appeare to you by the light of naturall reason that the maine end of all religion is the glorie of God Do not your owne consciences testifie in the simplicitie of your hearts that it maketh more for the glorie of God that men should be beholding to his Maiestie for their saluation then that they should procure it to themselues Is it not also apparent to you in the secret of your owne soules that our doctrine by beating downe the pride of mans free-will aduanceth the glorie of Gods mercie and yours by hoysing vp the conceit of mans good choise presseth downe the estimation of Gods vnspeakable goodnesse And shall an idle sound weigh more with you then sound reason Consider I beseech you what weake grounds you build this opinion of the Church vpon I will point at that which in my answer I haue handled Can you in any sort compare the opinion of the Churches authoritie with the euidence of those matters wherewith before I pressed you Is it as cleere that there are certaine men whom I must beleeue whatsoeuer they teach as it is that I must seeke the aduancing of Gods glory more then of mine owne pride Are you as sure that these Priests and Iesuits which are your teachers be sent by the true Church and deliuer nothing but the doctrine of the true Chruch as you are that they who perswade you to rest wholy vpon God and not at all vpon your selues shew you the right way to procure Gods glory and your owne saluation Tush say you all is nothing vnlesse I beleeue it vpon the credit of the Church Alaste how did the first Christians who neuer thought on the authoritie of the Church when they heard and beleeued the Apostles doctrine Looke ouer all the Historie of the Actes peruse the Sermons of Peter and Paule and tell me whether you finde that euer they pleaded the authoritie of the Church to procure beleefe of their doctrine After men are conuerted the authoritie of the Church hath her due place and must beare sway in matters in different but for the auowing of truth her bare word is neuer of sufficient importance It was the doctrine of the Apostles that wrought vpon the hearts of men by the cleare euidence of it through the power of the Spirit wherewith it was accompanied What that doctrine was where should we learne but in the scriptures wherein they haue written what they preached These you say giue such authoritie to the Church This were somewhat if you made not their authoritie in respect of vs to depend vpon the Church The scriptures say your Doctors haue in themselues authoritie as being from God but they are not of authoritie to vs but onely by the authoritie of the Church I perceiue you are ashamed of these absurdities The Church must be beleeued vpon her word Why so The Scripture saith so How shall I know that these bookes are scripture The Church saith so The Church and the scripture prooue each other by their mutuall testimonie they giue each of other I beleeue the Church because the scripture biddeth me I beleeue the scripture because the Church biddeth me If these things seeme to be absurd as indeed they are most absurd blinde not your selues any longer with such mists of errour but come out of them to the cleare light of the scriptures reade them diligently meditate in them carefully call vpon God for his grace earnestly resigne your selues and your free-will to him sincerelie and the Lord that is most readie to blesse them that vse the meanes of knowledge and faith in humilitie and singlenesse of heart will assuredly enlighten your vnderstanding and incline your affections that you shall discerne like of and embrace the true doctrine of Iustification by faith in Iesus Christ and shall renounce your owne righteousnesse and free-will to the glorie of his grace and the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of your bodies and soules through the same his sonne to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost be all
so long that few find leisure to reade them p. 7. Authority how a meanes to beget faith p. 60. One man of authoritie and learning drawes many atter him p. 121. B To beleeue in Christ what it is p. 26. To beleeue the Catholick Church what it is p. 156. We do not beleeue in y e church because that were to equal it with God p 157. They that truly beleeue in Christ shall not erre out of the way that leadeth to euerlasting life p. 232. Beleefe how wrought p 362. No man is forced to beleeue p. 361 362. No man withheld from beleeuing by God p. 58. A man may deliuer the truth and himselfe not beleeue p. 112. Beleeuing expresly implicitè p. 44 45. To beleeue that is to assent is not in the power or choice of mans will p. 40. For what reason we must beleeue or assent to the truth p. 30. 31. 42. 43. 47. True beleeuers cannot be separated frō Christ by death p. 167. Misbeleeuing and obstinately not beleeuing differ much p. 39. Misbeleeuing how far daminable p. 51. Obstinatly not beleeuing how not dam nable p 39. 40. 49. Refusing to beleeue against conscience alwayes damnable p. 40. 41. C Catharin foresaw the Councell of Trent would be misunderstood p 323. Catholick what it signifieth p. 280. 281. Few ordinarie Papists know 280. What the Catholike Church is why so called p. 280. 283. 284. 285. 286. 374. Not all one with Romane p. 7. As Papists vnderstand it a meere name p. 187. 199. 373. 407. Said to be Catholicke in sixe respects p. 281. In respect of al places persons p. 285. Catholicknesse seldome taken for vniuersalitie of time 281. 373. No particular Church Catholick as Papists vnderstand Catholick p. 3. The Church before our Sauiours comming not Catholicke as the Papists teach p 281. The Catholicke Church continueth frō Adam to the end of the world p. 160 164. 281. The church not called Catholick by any autor within the first 200. years p. 283. No man called a Catholick in the Apostles time p. 282. The word Catholicke not vsed in the Scriptures p. ead The title Catholicke not giuen to any of the Epistles by the Apostles themselues p. ead The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 151. Teaching contrary to the Catholicke Church how farre accursed p. 106. The Catholick Church is as wel in heauen as in earth p. 6. 8. Not visible p. 209. The Protestāts church Catholick p. 408. The Church what it is pag. 6. 10. 26. 71. 150. 169. 170. 175. 199. 225. 393. Not the Clergie onely p. 71. 123. 131. Papists define it with relatiō to the Pope of Rome p. 200. A Councel of Bishops y e Popish Church p. 136. 150. All professors are not the true Church 177. The congregation and gouernours are properly the Church where they liue p. 148. 227. Diuers significations of y e word Church 127. 128. see Ecclesia All beleeuers p. 120. 210. The elect beleeuers liuing in the world p. 201. 210. Generally a companie assembled or not assembled p. 210. Where the Church is to be sought p. 61. To be knowne only by y e scriptures p. 56 How it is to be knowne p. 221. How the pillar and ground of truth pa. 151. 152. Built and founded vpon the truth p 154. The faith therof how far to be enquired after p. 14. The authoritie thereof how farre to be yeelded to p. 45. 50 54. 91. 111. 151. 246. 250. 275. A maine delusion and needlesse p. 67. 72 90. 104. 238. 239. Cannot make that damnable which is not so of it selfe p. 49. Increaseth the sinne of not beleeuing when it determineth truly p. 49. Not spoken of in the old testament p. 97 How far commended to vs by the Scripture p. 96. 97. How Austin was moued to beleeue by the authoritie of the Church p. 93. The authoritie of the Church is great in matters not to be decided by scripture p. 95. 96. 155. 250. The testimonie and authoritie thereof is but humane p. 242. 243. What it is for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church p. 249. Not to heare the Church p. 147. All Churches may erre p. 6. 46. 135. What is necessary to the being of a true Church p. 239. Many reprobates are members thereof according to the Papists p 164. Outward profession enough to make a man a mēber thereof according to y e Papists pa. 23. 123. 224. 264. 272. 350. Why we ought to seeke for and ioyne our selues to a true Church p. 219. 234. Gods true publicke worship cannot ordinarily be performed but in a true Church p. 219. The Church not holding the foundatiō of y e Apostles doctrine is to be left p. 14 Truth of doctrine in points fundamental a certaine marke of a true church p 240. 249. Succession to the Apostles in doctrine makes Churches Apostolicke p. 301. Was neuer without some diuersitie of opinions among the learned p. 311. The Church erred in diuers points within the first six hūdred years p. 163. How it is one p. 158. 160. 201. 215. 263. 264. 266. 284. 309. 318. The Protestants Church is one p. 406. Adam Abel Enoch c. were of the Protestants Church p. 341. 353. No writer within the first thousand yeres agrees with the Papists of the Councell of Trent in all points p. 341. The Popish Church hath not yet determined all points p. 14. 375. The Church y t ignorant Papists beleeue is a Priest or a Iesuit p. 15. 16. 17. 71. The Papists circle of the Scripture the Church p. 72. 91. 244. 246. 261. 413 How a whole Church may be counted holy 271. Many thousands neuer had knowledge of any Church p 55 No man can certainly know that there is any true Church but by the Scriptures p 244. The Church hath properly to do with none but Christians p. 90. 193. The Church was confined to Africke by the Donatists p. 3. 173. 216. 288. It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church p. 212. What it is to sit in Moses chaire p. 140. 141. Who are meant by the Church beleeued in the Creed p. 157. 158. 168. 175 210. The elect called are properly the church p. 158. 159. 165. 168. 211. 212. 213. 217 265. That Church is not visible p. 174. 177. To that onely is continuance promised p. 217. The continuance of the Church dependeth vpō her being ioyned to Christ p. 168. The Church in the Apostles time did not alwayes hold the same points of faith p. 310. To beleeue in the Church were to equal it with God p. 157. The ceremonies before Christ were not continued without interruption pag. 170. 227. Communion with a Church may be refused by ignorance without pride p. 275. Confession to a minister neither commanded nor forbidden by Protestant Churches p. 342. Popish confession rather prouokes men to sinne then restraines them from it 342. 343. Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae
God will haue all men to be saued not euery man p. 53. 55. 57. 58. 203. 257. The meanes of saluation by Christ are such as no man could deuise p. 102. 103. 113. 235. May be knowne what they are by the Scriptures without faith but not acknowledged to be true without faith p. 235. 236. Contempt or neglect of some things not absolutely necessary to saluation may yet depriue a man of it p. 188. The graces of sanctification shall make the enemies of Gods children acknowledge them p. 179. That this maÌ„ is saued rather then that it proceedeth froÌ„ the wil of God p. 203. Sacrament what it is p. 385. Administration of the sacraments not absolutely necessary to the being of a Church p. 226. 227. All things that belong to the right administration of the sacraments are set downe in Scripture p. 230. There haue bin 32. schismes in the Romish Church p. 393. None are properly schismatickes but they that refuse coÌ„munion with some true church p. 275. Schoole-mens writings full of needlesse and endlesse questions p. 20. All the schoolmen haue refuted some of their fellows or bin refuted by them p 313. Interprete and apply the scripture falsly p. 118. Scribes why so called p. 140. What is meant by Christs sheepfold p. 265. Similitudes how they argue p. 50. Scripture the epistle of the Creator to the creature p. 81. Acknowledged by Protestants and Papists to be the word of God p. 87. 42. May be knowne to be so by the matter p. 89. Written for the instruction of all p. 74. 79. 82. Of greater authority then any mans writings or then all mens p. 241. The bounds of the Church p. 61. Ignorance thereof the cause of all euils p. 119. Condemned by the Papists of hardnesse and vncertaintie and vnsufficiency p. 11. 73. 79. 22â— Are not hard p. 74. 75. 76. 77. 82. 94. Papists blasphemies against the Scripture p. 42. 5â— 81. Depriuing the people of them p. 52. Hard places of Scripture must be expounded by the plaine p. 79. Some places of Scripture so plaine that they cannot be mistaken p. 79. Why some places of Scripture are hard some easie p. 76. 82. Scripture expoundeth it selfe p. 82. Reading thereof may breed faith how p 25 26. 34 35 36. 75 76. 114. 235. Exposition of the scripture not tied to the senses of the fathers p. 121 No exposition to bee thrust vpon the church that cannot euidently be proued p. 122. The scriptures left instead of the Apostles to be aduised with in all points of faith p 97. May be vnderstood by naturall wit and learning p. 102. 103. Papists glad to flie to the priuate teaching of the spirit to know the scriptures p. 72. 245. Scripture why called Canonicall p 106. Christians doubting of the scripture how to be dealt withall p. 90. Atheists in the same question how to be dealt withall p. 90 92. Knowledge of scripture to be laboured for p. 20. 74. How far the scripture must be knowne before the church p. 244. 247. Many things required to the perfect vnderstanding thereof p. 73. 81 82. This word Expresly foisted in by the Papists into the question of the scripture p. 88 89 100. The Hebrew and Greeke originals reiected by the Papists p. 52. Interpretation of scripture p. 73. 80. 82. 92. 101. 118. 120. 121. Scripture an absolute rule for saluation p. 7. 17. 96. 97. 322. How alone sufficient to saluation p. 65. 66. 73. 78 96. 97. Sufficient for all matters of faith and maners p. 56. 67. 68. 83. 86. 87. 89. 94. 250. 260. 314 395. All parts of scripture not true in like sense nor of like necessitie to be beleeued p. 38 By what argumeÌ„t the spirit perswades vs that the scripture is from God p 245. Priuat spirit when to be reiected p. 120. What spirits are to be tried p. 252. Who are to trie them p. 254. Sins of infirmitie lesse hainous then sins of wilfulnesse p. 344. Suspition without iust cause against christianitie and ciuilitie p. 72. What succession is to be esteemed p 2. 393. 394. Succession no good mark of the church p. 394 395. Protestants haue succession if Papists haue it p. 392. 409. T The English Translation reproued p. 66 Defended p. 69. 70. Not held by vs to be infallible p. 68. 94. The Rhemish Translation hard to be vnderstood p. 70. The vulgar Translation corrupt in eight thousand places by the iudgement of a learned Papist p. 52 Doubts concerning it p. 71. The generall Analysis of the Treatise p. 4. 5. The summe of it p. 54. What Traditions are to be held for Apostolicall p. â—5 The spirit is to teach all truth how p. 130 God doth not miraculously reueale all truth at once to any man p. 313. Truth manifested by one simple man is to be preferred before the iudgment of neuer so many wise and learned in a Councell p. 249. 250. Truth must be receiued though deliuered by euill men p. 143. 144. Beleefe of euery truth is required as a dutie of sanctification p. 274. The truth hath had witnesse of men from time to time p. 205. From whom truth is hid p 82. Euidence of truth not visibilitie of the church the means of conuersion p. 204 The speedie conuersion of great multitudes by preaching a great argument of truth p. 205. Truth with contention is better then agreement with Antichristianisme p. 317 Without truth the greatest agreement is but a conspiracy against God p. 317. V The Protestants Churches haue meanes to continue vnitie p. 314. Vniuersalitie p. 65. Cannot be seene but onely conceiued p. 177. No certaine marke of the Church p. 293. The state of the question concerning the visibility of the Church p. 197. 209. 219 Visibilitie of the Church p. 174. 176. 198 202. 20â— 214. A Church may for a time be inuisible how p. 202. And yet the flock and Pastor know each other p. ead Why it was necessarie that the churches at the first should be visible p. 204. 205 The Catholicke Church inuisible p. 209 To whom the churches are visible p. 216 Voluntas signi beneplaciti p. 58. 59. W The will of God ought to be a sufficient reason of his doings to all men p. 204 Mans free-will preferred before Gods glorie by the Papists p. 361. Men commonly wonder at that they vnderstand not p. 27. Good workes shall be rewarded though not vpon desert 343. Good workes are not made meritorious by being dipt in Christs bloud p. 365. Faults escaped Page 61. line 16. for seene read said p. 69. l. 9. for which r. with p. ead l. 11. Isidorus Clarius put out the comma p 74. l. 4. in the marg for 13. r. 130. p. 80. l. vlt. for with r which p. 92. l. 28. for be r. he p. 93 l 26. for yours r. you p. 96. l. vlt. for expresly r. properly p. â—7 l. 19 for rule r. vse p. 119. l. 24. put out say p. 134. l. 17. in the mar for vli r. vbi p.
that second property of your rule when I answered to your proposition A man may be saued though he vnderstand not the true sense of euery verse in the Bible so he do not acknowledge it to be the word of God and withall denie it to be true But if it be so hard to vnderstand the Scripture aright is it good dealing in you to vrge the expositions of men with such perē ptorinesse as if it were an hainous sinne not to giue credit to euery interpretation of the Fathers We acknowledge their learning and pietie but we remember they are men and therefore may be deceiued Where they bring reason for their expositions we consider of it with reuerence to them where they bring none we trie whether we can bring any proofe of their interpretation If we finde none we labour to expound the text so as true reason so farre as we can iudge shewes that we ought to doe Where our weakenesse affoords no proofe for our interpretation nor against theirs we are willing and readie to giue more credit to them then to our selues But it is no disgrace to them that processe of time by Gods blessing vpon mens endeauours should bring somewhat to light now which in former ages hath not bene vnderstood It cannot be hidden from any man saith your Bishop of Rochester that many things are now more cleerely beaten out and vnderstood as well in other things as in the Gospell then heretofore because the ancient writers had not the Ice broken before them neither did their time suffice to sound the deepth of Scripture in all places VVe may adde hereunto another reason obserued by Stella that though of our selues we were but Pigmees or dwarfes yet being carried vpon the shoulders of them as it were vpon Giants we may see farther then they could VVhich is the reason why an other of your writers doubts not to affirme that the latter doctrines or expositions are the quicker sighted But diuers men you say expound diuersly and thereupon you demaund how any man can be sure he expounds truly hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason VVhen I read this obiection me thought I saw one of the old Academicks or Scepticks sweating to prooue that there is no truth in any thing to be knowen but that we must be content to rest vpon likelihood I pray you answer me in good earnest Are you perswaded of your selfe I speake to a Scholler that you vnderstand not the true meaning of any one place in Aristotles Physicks with the commentaries vpon him expounding diuersly Surely if your ignorance had bene so great I presume neither Rome Rhemes Doway nor any other Vniuersitie or Colledge would haue vouchsafed you the degree of a Batcheler in Arts. And yet Aristotle himselfe professeth of that booke that he set it out as if he had not set it out because no bodie for sooth could vnderstand it but he that had or should heare him teach by word of mouth as you speake of the preaching of the Church If then it be possible to vnderstand Aristotles meaning and that certainly for all the diuers interpretations of his expositors and his owne intended obscuritie giue vs leaue to thinke that the Lord God purposing to reueale his will by the scriptures hath written in such sort that man his creature to whom as Gregorie saith he writ them may without any iust cause of doubting vnderstand so much at the least as is necessarie for his saluation which was Gods end in writing But euerie interpreter thinks that himselfe hath attained to the right sense What of that Therefore is there no meanes to discerne which interpretation is true which false Doth not this doubt accompanie the writings of the Philosophers as well as the scriptures Neuer go about to perswade vs to such an iniurious and vnthankfull conceit towards God as to imagine that he hath vouchsafed vs the vse of reason and the treasure of his word to so little purpose If it be vnpossible to know whē we haue the true sense of the scripture it had bene farre better that no scripture had bene written but all left to the direction of your Pope frō time to time Such blasphemies as I haue shewed some of your side vtter but a true Christiā is so throughly perswaded of Gods wisdom that by his giuing the scripture he seeth al these your cauils shifts refuted Now in the last place you tell vs that there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of scripture which are found in very few If by perfect vnderstanding you meane an exact knowledge of all places that you say is true but not much to the purpose For there is no such knowledge necessary but that the scripture may be the rule of faith though euery text in it cannot be certainly vnderstood But consider a little that if there be means of attaining to a perfect vnderstāding of scripture thogh they be many yet by your confession they may be had else are they in vaine if neither any man nor all men can attaine vnto them some to one some to more as it pleaseth God to bestow his gifts seuerally If you meane that many things are required to a perfect vnderstanding of points necessarie to saluation see how much you differ from the iudgement of the ancient Fathers The truth is not hid saith Chrysostom but from thē that will not seeke it And in an other place The Scripture expoundeth it selfe suffereth no man to erre Let him that hath an heart saith Austin read those things that go before and those that follow and he shall finde the sense For as Ierome truly saith the Lord hath spoken by his Gospell not that a few should vnderstand him but that all should Austin gaue vs the reason before why he speakes plaine in some places and not in all To feed our hunger and to keepe our queasie stomacks from loathing our meate But you require I know not what infallible assurance that they which haue these gifts may be sure they neuer erre in any of their priuate expositions What assurance looke you for No reuelation I hope They may be sure not to erre if they deliuer no expositions but such as they can euidently prooue to be true For other places where the sense is hard let them vse all the diligence they can and if it prooue not verie plaine and certaine let thē leaue it y vncertain til it please God some other man may finde the true meaning of it and so make it knowen to men for the rule of faith in that point it concerneth as it is alwaies in it selfe Are youe afraid lest it should come to passe hereby that many matters of faith should be vnknowen The ignorance of these things cannot hinder a mans saluation and this inconuenience followeth the preaching of your Church as well as the reading of
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
vpon the answerer whose person in this case I sustaine Besides I bring you the same proofe that Bellarmine bringeth for himselfe that is I say they were all of our Church If it be absurd to do so let your Cardinall learne to dispute better It were long to enter into particulars yet if I had brought the argument I would for shame haue said some what in proofe of it but let it passe as it comes for this once Against whom make you all this discourse to prooue that it is not possible to know certainly who are holy and who are not Surely not against the Protestants who confesse as much If hereupon you conclude that our Church hath had none holy because it hath had none certainly knowne to be holy the Maior of your syllogisme will be false as before viz. That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or anie other certaine way from God hath had no members of it holy and I will answer to your Minor as I did that the Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles were members of our Church certainly knowne to be holy by reuelation from God But whereas you say that no man can tell whether himselfe be truely sanctified or no you affoord me proofe of that which before I affirmed that the Apostles were of our Church Prooue your selues saith the Apostle Paule whether you be in the faith examine your selues know ye not your owne selues that Iesus Christ is in you except you be reprobates And how doth the spirit of God beare witnesse to our spirit that we are the children of God if it be not possible to discerne his voice from the delusion of Sathan God hath giuen saith Bernard certaine manifest signes and tokens of saluation that it cannot be doubted but that he is in the number of the elect in whom those signes continue And in an other place whatsoeuer soule among you sath the same man hath at any time felt in the secret of his conscience the spirit of the Sonne crying Abba Father let that soule presume that he is loued with a fatherly affection which feeleth himselfe indued with the same spirit which the Sonne had Be confident whosoeuer thou art be confident nothing doubting By the spirit of the Sonne know thou art the daughter of the Father the spouse and sister of the Sonne Do you name Bernard for a principall Saint of your Church and go so directly against his doctrine As for that place of Ecclesiastes what prooueth it but onely that no man can truly iudge whether he be in Gods fauour or no by the outward things of this life or at the most that an ordinarie naturall man can giue no true iudgement of the matter This place saith Alfonsus Salmero no meane Iesuite doth not prooue that which some men draw from it that a man knoweth not the loue of God toward him because it followeth in the text he knoweth not whether he be worthie of hatred But the wicked know that they are most worthie of Gods hatred by reason of their grieuous sins The other place that No man can say his heart is cleane maketh nothing against the point you would disprooue For what though euerie man be tainted with naturall corruption which hath euen the nature of sinne in it may be not haue withall assurance according to his measure of Gods loue in Christ Yet if want of a pure heart be all the hindrance your doctrine teacheth vs that the partie baptised before he fall into some deadly sinne is wholly cleane originall sinne hauing lost in him the nature of sinne But the knowledge of the fauour of God dependeth not vpon the measure of our holinesse but vpon the truth of it Wheresoeuer the spirit of God hath begotten true faith there he hath begun true sanctification which according to his diuine power and pleasure be will in time bring to full perfection As if our Church had bene begun with Luther and not rather with Adam and the world continued in the Patriarches and Prophets and at last shewed most gloriously in the Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ As long as God hath giuen testimonie of the holinesse of these worthies our Church cannot be said to haue had none certainly knowne to be holy But though we builde not vpon any such ground tel me what it wanted of amiracle that a poore Frier should set himselfe against the Pope and the whole state of your Church and for all the malice persecution of the Pope the Emperor and generally all the estates of these westerne parts as well ciuill as Ecclesiasticall except a Prince or two in Germany conuerted by him continue and grow so many yeares and leaue behind him after a peaceable and godly death so many heires of his doctrine daily increasing and multiplying It is enough that the word of God beareth witnesse to the truth of his doctrine though we haue neither miracle nor reuelation of his holinesse But you would make the world beleeue that he and Caluin attempted to worke miracles If it had bene so it was not to breed an opinion of their holinesse but to auow the truth of their doctrine But to whom can it seeme likely that they which denied that any miracles were to be looked for and taught that Antichrist should come with signes and wonders would go about such a needlesse and doubtfull peece of worke What tell you vs of the Apostata Bolsec or Staphylus who solde themselues to lie for the Popes aduantage At the least name some likely men though partiall and not such knowne enemies and Sycophants I maruell you prooue not this point of holinesse by the examples of your Popes in whose persons holinesse is inuested and from them deriued to all other as honour is in and from temporall Princes If the Popes holinesse be not extraordinarily holy what should a man looke for of inferiour Papists Who would not rather name the Sunne then any starre of the first magnitude or the Moone her selfe to prooue that there is light in the skie But you knew how filthie that fountaine of your holinesse is Well let them go as they are you haue named vs three the ancientest of whom is not yet six hundred yeares old What say you of them First that they were certainly knowne to haue bene professors of that same Religion which was then and is now professed at Rome To whom is this certainly knowne How many of our men haue shewed that the Religion of the Church of Rome is altered in diuers points since Bernards time The Councell of Trent is the pit out of which the religiō of your present Church is digged I referre the Reader for this point to a Treatise lately written by a learned Diuine wherein many particulars to this purpose are deliuered Bernard was indeed a member of the Church of Rome as then it was yet either he dissented from