doctrine coÌ„mitted to the Pastors of the church doth not at any time faile either in whole or part but is preserued inuiolate and entire from all errors growing thereto The second that the Protestants can shew no other succession of Pastors whereto this doctrine was committed then is contained in his catalogue Hence he concludes that his now church of Rome holds nothing but what the ancient Fathers held I answer to the second touching the Catalogue that for the first 600 yeares we approue it confessing the Pastors and Christians mentioned therein to haue bin the true Church And for the rest of the ages to this day we will allow the Catalogue with three limitations first that the Pastors and people therein named be confessed to haue kept the faith lesse purely then they of the former ages so that the lower they succeeded the more they were corrupted Secondly that from the 800. yeare specially such Pastours and people be added euery one in their place as misliked and resisted the corruptions of the Church of Rome growing on and vpheld the purer doctrine in such manner as I briefly touched in THE WAY Digress 52 Thirdly that the legend Saints Antichristian Popeâ— lying stories and the Popes creatures whose succession we need not be wiped out and the ordinary Pastors liuing in communion with the Church of Rome Greece Armenia and such like though we allow not euery singular and speciall man be supplied Let the Catalogue be reformed and vndertaken in this manner and the Pastors and the people contained therein shall be yeelded to be the same that Christ and his Apostles committed the truth to and in the meane time the Repliar doth but trouble himselfe and seduce his Reader wheÌ„ he beares him in hand that we desire to shew other Pastors or people besides these all Protestants freely affirming their faith to haue succeeded euen in the Church of Rome it selfe though the errors thereof were no part of their faith but the inuentions of men added thereunto 2 But the first thing affirmed that the Christian doctrine committed to the Pastours of the Church cannot faile in any degree or part thereof but is alway preserued inuiolate and entire from all error is false For albeit it be the commandemeÌ„t of God and were the desire of the blessed Apostles that it should be so How the Church cannot erre yet as I haue shewed the euent teaches that sometime it falls out otherwise in the same manner that it is Gods ordinance that no man should sinne and yet all men do sinne So that all that can be said of the Church and the Pastors thereof by vertue of the promise is that neither it nor they shall vniuersally all of them at any time faile in the beleefe profession of those truths which are absolutely and simply necessary to saluation though many Pastors and people reputed for the best part of the Church may erre and sometime also persist in ioyning mortall errors with the truth many ages together what time no Pastors or people at all shall appeare to hold the faith so entire but some corruptions not hindering saluation shall be holden therewith the which assertion as it ouerthrowes all the Iesuites discourse in this place so is it true that our Aduersaries grant neither the whole nor any part of the Church to be free from error but so far forth as it followes the Pope who himselfe by their like confession may erre and be deposed for herâ—sie Beside if Gods ordinance or the Apostles intendiment did warrant the Pastors of the Church that they should not erre at least vniuersally how comes it to passe that euen euery Doctor in his Catalogue from Dyonisius and Ignatius to Stapleton and Bellarmine haue had their errors all his Councels haue had theirs and the most of his Popes haue decreed one against another and there is not one Diuine in all his Catalogue not his dearest Thomas of Aquin but he will confesse him to haue erred yet erre he should not if the prouidence of God were to preserue the Doctors of his Church from all error in the degree that the Replie sayes The truth therefore succeeds continually in the Church without ceasing but first Not alway in all nor in the highest Pastors Secondly Nor alway without corruption Thirdly Nor at all times entire and inuiolate from all error but sometime a vniuersall apostasy may so ouerflow the Church that nothing shall remaine free from error but onely the necessary and fundamentall points of faith the which points do not therefore lose their succession because many corruptions are receiued taught with theÌ„ much lesse do those corruptions succeed with the truth from the Apostles but the Pastors people thus corrupted shew themselues not to haue kept his couenant who will saue them that haue perseuered in the foundation and be merciful to them that haue erred of inuincible ignorance and forgiue them that haue repented of their errors and damme them whether Pastors or people that with tyranny and contumacy haue maintained the corruptions 3 The Iesuites reasons to proue that the Pastours of the Church cannot erre and that the true faith cannot be corrupted are answered already in THE WAY § 14. A.D. Wherefore if my Aduersaries will deny the catalogue of Pastors Pag. 270. which I haue set downe to be of such as haue alway preserued the foresaid sacred Depositum of the truth entire and inuiolate I require first that they will assigne another Catalogue of such as did continually preserue it whole and without change Also I require that they assigne the first Pastour of my Catalogue which failed in preseruing the truth setting downe â—hall the point of doctrine wherein he erred and naming other Pastâ—â—â—s who resisted and continued to resist Lastly I require that they assigne not as their manner is White digr 51. 52. and as M. White doth such particulars as they may see ordinarily answered and refuted by Catholicke Authors but some plaine instances which neuer were yet nor cannot be answered or refuted Which my demands if they cannot satisfie as I am sure they cannot euery discreet man carefull of his soule will see that it is not safe to forsake this reuerend ranke and orderly succession of knowne Pastours to follow such a phantasticall Platonicall Idaea of an inuisible company of professing Protestants White p. 338. which M. White imagineth to haue alwaies bene as euery other Hereticke might imagine the professors of his sect to haue bene or to run after such a rabble of ragged hereticks as the same M. White assigneth for emineÌ„t meÌ„bers of the ProtestaÌ„t Church White ib. pag. 394. the which neither haue interrupted succession or continuance in time or place nor vniformity in doctrine with the ancient Church or one with another or with the Protestants of his age This foresaid consideration may suffice to let any indifferent man see that the same doctrine of faith which the ancient
Graffius a Friar lately writing from Capua i Decis aurear l. 2. c. 8. nu 16. that euery Christian is not bound to know the articles of faith explicitely but only Cleargy meÌ„ I cited Antonine an Archbish and a Saint in the Church of Rome k Sum. mor. part 1. tit 5. c 2. §. 1. who reporting the tale of the Colliar first saies that a great Doctor being demanded what he beleeued answered as the Church and being further demanded what the Church beleeued answered that it beleeued the articles contained in the Creed And then falles to commending that faith which shewes that he thought it was the entirest beleeuing eueÌ„ of the Creed to do it by implicite faith I alledged Pighius and Hosius the Cardinall who l Pigh hier l. 1. c. 5. Hos cont Brent l. 3 p. 146 in the places cited affirme that it is the safest way to hold a mans selfe to the faith of the Church though it should erre in the faith And that this Colliars faith is more safe then any meditation or exercise in the Scripture And whosoeuer shall view the places Hosius especially shall well perceiue that I speake the truth which I will yet iustifie further by shewing Catholicke Diuines as my aduersaries stiles a packe of heretikes to teach that it is sufficient by this implicite faith to beleeue euen the principall articles of faith contained in the Creed m Tract de fid William the B. of Paris n L. 3. tract 3. c. 1. qu. 5. Altisiodorensis o V. Fides nu 1. Summa Rosella and others p refeâ—t D. Ban. 22. qu. 2. art 8. § Dubitatur secundo hold that it is not necessary to beleeue any article of faith expressely but it is enough to beleeue all that our mother the Church beleeues and holds So that if a man were demanded whether Christ were borne of the Virgine and whether there were one God and 3. Persons he might sufficiently answer I cannot tell but I beleeue as the Church holds and this faith would iustifie and saue him The Iesuits q Lorin in Act. Apost p. 438. 1. b. Grego de Valent. tom 3. disp 1. qu. 2. punct 4. pag. 311. A. report that it is the opinion of many Authors in the Church of Rome that the explicite faith of Christ as he is true God and man and the Redeemer of mankinde euen after the sufficient publishing of the Gospell is not necessary necessitate medij either for Iustification or saluation and he cites Richardus Mediauillanus Vega and Soto Which is true for these are Vegaes expresse words r Pro. Concil TrideÌ„t l. 6. c. 15. p. 92. edit Colon 1572. It is to be affirmed that men are so iustified by the faith of the Mediator that yet the vnfolded faith neither of this article nor of any other must be thought requisite vnto iustice because the explicite faith of other articles belonging either to Speculation or morall life suffices thereunto and this is it which our Diuines commonly teach when they say the Faith of one mediator either vnfolded or infolded is enough for iustificatioÌ„ neither can they hold otherwise that thinke as Å¿ Reported before c. 22. n. 1. many in the Romane Church do the Gentiles without any knowledge of Christ or supernaturall faith at all may be saued 5 I know well enough some of our aduersaries speake otherwise and seeme to require a more vnfolded faith whose doctrine I will not conceale t Eymeric part 1. q. 7. n. 8 The Directorie of the Inquisitors out of u 22. qu. 2. art 5. Aquinas saies A man is bound explicitely to beleeue the articles of faith but other points of faith onely implicitely That which * D. Bann vbi sup Alexand Pezant 22. q. 2. art 8. disp 1. Greg. Val. tom 3. disp 1. qu. 2. punct 3. 4. 5. Vasqu 12. disp 121. others speake more at large First * These are the Propositions of Pezantius a Iesuite Schoolman that in the state both afore and after sinne it was necessary for all of yeares of discretion both by the command and necessity of the meanes to beleeue some supernaturall thing by explicite faith Secondly The things thus to be beleeued are all points needfull for the ordering of their life as to beleeue there is a God and his diuine prouidence and the immortality of the soule that he is the Creator Rewarder and Gouernor of all Thirdly that now in the state of the Gospell it is also necessary to beleeue in Christ as the Redeemer of mankinde by faith explicite Fourthly by the Commandement all are bound to beleeue explicately the Mysterie of the Incarnation and the Trinitie the principall articles of faith contained in the Creed which by themselues pertaine to the substance of faith and some other things which tend to direct them in working aright But what those articles of the Creed are which thus belong to the substance of faith Pezant saies the Doctors are not agreed but he laies downe his owne iudgement that they are the articles touching the Vnitie Essence and Trinitie of the Persons in the Godhead touching the Creation the Remission of sinnes Eternall life the Natiuitie Passion Resurrection and Second comming of Christ the Sacraments of Baptisme Eucharist and Confession the precepts also of Faith Hope and Charity the ten Commandements and Praiers deliuered in the Catechisme It is also probable he saies that all good Catholickes should beleeue explicitely the virginity of Mary that they may worship her but it is certain that the article touching the Church that there is but one congregation thereof which is of the faithfull * Were you there Sir that obey the Pope Christs Vicar must be beleeued explicitely and some say also certaine traditions touching the signe of the Crosse and the adoration of Saints and Images This is the largest and most particular explication that I finde in any of them touching the things that all men vnlearned as well as learned are bound either by Commandement or absolute necessity to beleeue by faith explicite Yea the Scholiast vpon the Directory of the Inquisition x Pag. 60. requires the articles of faith to be gotten perfectly without Booke which the Iesuits y Grego Val. p. 320. c Pezant pag. 505. d. deny But how shall I know this is the doctrine of their Church how will my aduersary assure me that other Diuines in his Church as Catholicke as these are of the same minde that I might truely say I mistooke them when I said they vtterly refuse knowledge and canonize the Colliar If they would hold them euery where and constantly to this it were a good step to an end in this controuersie and our doctrine were iustified that particular knowledge is to be ioyned with the assent of faith and we must not so beleeue the Church but that we be able also in some measure to conceiue and penetrate the things themselues If my
of such a man is to be followed in interpretatioÌ„ of Scripture or otherwise as the rule of faith or as a sufficient infallible means to leade men and to direct them in the knowledge of matters which are to be beleeued by faith Now this being the sense of my conclusion let vs heare how my aduersaries will answer my proofes 5 First he grants that a priuate man assisted by the holy Ghost may interpret Scripture truly and infallibly against a company as big as the Romane Church supposing the said company were not so assisted but it is not to be thought that the holy Ghost forsakes the Catholick Church to assist any who interpret contrary to it Which I thinke too and therfore neuer denied his coÌ„clusion nor gaine-said the arguments whereby he confirmed it in this generall sense But when these priuate men were expounded to be the reformed Churches and their Pastors and this holy Catholicke vniuersall Christian Church vnderstood to be the Papacy and the Romish faction then I affirmed that priuate men might haue the Spirit of God and his truth and the Church want it But that I be not mistaken and that the Reader may vnderstand wherein I and my aduersaries differ Note that the name of the Church may be taken 3. waies First for the whole company of such as professe Christ and his Gospell collectiuely in all ages and places which is most properly and really the Catholicke vniuersall Church So expressely o Princip doctr pag. 99. 101. edit Ascens an 1532. Waldensis This is the Catholicke Apostolicke Church of Christ meant in the Creed the mother of beleeuers whose faith cannot faile not any speciall Church Not the African as Donatus said not the particular Romane Church but the vniuersall Church not assembled in a generall Councell which we know hath sometime erred but the Catholicke Church of Christ dispersed through the whole world since the Baptisme of Christ by the Apostles and their successors to these times is it which containes the true faith and holds the certain truth in the midst of all errors Secondly for any part of this Catholicke Church in this or that time or contrey as the particular Churches of Greece Rome Corinth or any assembly of Bishops congregated in a Councell either generall or particular Thirdly for the Papacy or Romish Church peculiarly containing that faction which imbraces the Romish religion and liues vnder the Popes subiection In which sense my aduersary and all Papists alway vse the name of the Church p Est coetus hominum eiusdem Christianae fidei professione corundem Sacramentorum communione colligatus sub reginunt legitimorum Pastorum ac precipuè vnius Christi in terris Vicarij Romani Pontificis excluduntur schismatici qui habent fidem in sacramenta sed non subsunt legitimo Pastori Bell. de eccl milit c. 2. Est visibilis hominum câ—etus sub Christo apite â—â—us in terris Vicario â—astore ac summo Pontifice agens Simanch Cath. instit tâ—t 24. n. 1. defining it by this Romish faith with subiection to the Pope and excluding from it all that refuse the Papacy The which distinction being thus laied I propound my answer and that we say touching the point in the fourth proposition First No man or company of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture contrary to that which the vniuersall Church in the first sence hath alway beleeued and expounded can be assured they haue the assistance of Gods Spirit but the contrary they may assure themselues they are led by the spirit of error The reason is for no truth can be reuealed to any but that which is in this Church for if it be not in it so that the Church neuer knew or beleeued it then it cannot be the truth For q 1. Tim. 3.15 the Church is the pillar and ground of truth and so a priuate man holding it must needs hold an error Secondly A priuate man and priuate companies of men may be and many times are so assisted by the holy Ghost that they may beleeue and expound the Scripture truly against a particular Church or Councell of Bishops either generall or particular The reason is for God hath left his truth with his Church therein to remaine for euer but not infallibly euery parcell of his truth with euery part or assembly of the Church But his prouidence and promises to his Church are sufficiently vpholden if he so support the true faith that it alway remaine in some of the Church Therefore a particular Church or councell of Bishops may at some time and in some points erre and then it cannot be denied but others may see the truth against them this proposition our aduersaries dare not denie nor do not Thirdly a priuate man and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture onely against the Papacie may be infallibly assured they are assisted by the holy Ghost The reason is because this Papacie is no part of Gods truth but the late inuentions of men added vnto it Fourthly Priuate men and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding contrarie to the Papacie resist not the true Church of Christ nor any part of it The reason is for the Papacie being nothing else but a disease or excrement breeding in the Church must not be expounded to be the Church it selfe as a wenne or leprosie growing on the bodie is not the bodie it selfe and he that cuts off the wen or purges away the leprosie cannot be said to resist or wrong the bodie 6 These foure propositions thus laid downe it is manifest my aduersarie doth but cauill in this place For if his conclusion intended no more but that priuate men must not be thought to know the truth and the true Catholick Church to be in error no man would speake against him But the sence of his conclusion is against the three last of my propositions That no man can be thought inspired of God or to haue the truth when he expounds Scripture as Luther and his did contrary to the church of Rome in which sence onely I dispute against him and in no other Not affirming that priuate men may see the truth and the Catholicke vniuersall Church not see it but onely that priuate men beleeuing contrary to that which my aduersarie meanes by the Catholicke vniuersall Church may haue the truth on their side and be infallibly sure therof without holding any thing contrary to the vnamine interpretation of the precedent or liuing Pastors of the sound part of the Catholicke Church CHAP. XXXIII 1. How a priuate man is assured he vnderstands and beleeues aright touching the last and highest resolution of faith 2. Luthers reiecting the Fathers 3. Occhams opinion that no man is tied to the Pope or his Councels 4. The Beraeans examined the doctrine that they were taught 5. The faith of the beleeuer rests vpon diuine infused light 6. M. Luther sought reformation with all humilitie 7. Scripture is the
virtually it is the Church of Rome and the Pope the Church of Rome representatiuely is the Colledge of Cardinals but virtually the Pope who is the head of the Church Pelaeottus f De consist part 1. qu. 3. pag. 19. The Pope alone may do not onely that which is granted to all and singular Prelates in the Church but also more then they all g Respons moral p. 44. n 4. Comitol The power of Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction is not in the vniuersality of the Church as in the true subiect but in the Prelates thereof and in the Bishops of Rome as in the fountaine whence it flowes vnto all other Ministers of the new Testament Albertine h Coroll pag. 251. saies The Bishop of Rome is the rule of faith into which Rule all the articles of our faith are lastly resolued as into the formall reason whereby they are propounded to vs. Gretser i Defens Bell. to 1. p. 1450. B. saies when we affirme the Church to be the iudge of all controuersies of faith by the Church we vnderstand the Bishop of Rome who for the time being gouernes the ship of the militant Church and by liuely voice doth clearely and expressely expound his iudgement to them that seeke to him Zumel k Disput var. tom 3. p. 49 D. saies I beleeue that the chiefe Priest and Bishop of the Church the Pope who is the master of our faith cannot but attaine the truth of faith nor can be deceaued or erre if as chiefe Bishop and master of the faith he set downe his determination so that vnlesse a man be afraid of the truth there is no cause why he should feare the Popes determination It is idle therefore and sordid that the Repliar saies by the Church he meant the Pope but secondarily as it is ridiculous to say the Church is the rule indefinitely and abstracting from all time or per ampliationem which are termes deuised onely to besot the ignorant that they should not smell his heresie for if his Church be the rule he must needes meane such a Church as he thinkes in all ages and times successiuely to haue bene inuested with that authority and that Church is the Pope alone that miserable iudge of whom their owne men say h Do. Bann to 3. p. 106. b. It is no Catholicke faith but an opinion very probable that he is S. Peters successor and the most iudicious confesse i Alph. l. 1. c. 4. Hadrian pag. 26. ad 2. he may erre * August Anconit sum qu. 5. art 1 Iacobat de conc l. 4. art 1. Occh Dialog 1. part l. 6. 2. part c. 69. inde Cusan de concord cath l. 2. c. 17. Panorm de elect C. signif not 7. Zabarell tract de schismat Gerson de auferibil Pap. consid 10. inde and be deposed for heresie A.D. § 1. Pag. 205. That the doctrine of the Apostles was for their life time the rule and meanes First I say that my conclusion being vnderstood as in this Chapter I principally meant cannot be denied to be true for it cannot be denied but that the doctrine as deliuered by the Apostles themselues being for the time they liued the Church in such sense as here I take the name Church was such a rule and meanes as here we seeke for For first it is knowne to be infallible Secondly it was easie to be vnderstood c. Thirdly it was vniuersall c. Since therefore these 3. conditions requisite in the rule of faith are found in the doctrine and teaching of the Apostles it cannot be denied but that the diuine doctrine as deliuered by them in their life time either by word or writing was the rule and meanes which God ordained to instruct men in faith Taking therfore my conclusion in the chiefely intended sense I suppose that my aduersaries will neither deny it to be true nor the reason by which I proue it to be good 2 This discourse needed not for no Protestant denies the doctrine of the Apostles to be the rule either for their time or the time succeeding to the world ende I graunt therefore the Repliar his assertion and inferre thereupon that his Popes determinations and the doctrine of his Romish Church is not the rule of faith because they agree not with that which he here confesses was the rule in the Apostles time vnlesse he will maintaine when he replies againe that the rule is not one and the same at all times as k Cusan ep 2.7 his Cardinall writes that the Scripture is fitted to the time and variably vnderstood so that at one time it is expounded according to the fashion of the Church and when that fashion is changed the sense of the Scripture is also changed Againe Magalian a Iesuite I thinke yet liuing l Magal op Hierarch in tit p. 61. n. 6. saies Though it were granted that the wordes of Paule Tit. 1.6 containe a precept to marrie yet seeing Paule gaue it by his owne authority it were no diuine but an Ecclesiasticall precept which the Church may change yea abrogate and much more dispense with Marke what trickes heretickes haue to change the Apostles doctrine when it fits not their Church then the Apostles gaue it by their owne authority which I note that the Reader may perceaue there is no sincerity in the Repliars words For albeit he grants here the Apostles doctrine be the rule yet he meanes it to be the rule but for their owne time because the Pope may vnder colourable pretences expound it that is in plaine English change it when he will as his Cardinall and Iesuite here affirme A D. § 2. That the doctrine of the succeeding Pastours of the Church Pag. 207. is the rule and meanes The chiefe controuersie is about my conclusion as in a secondary sense it may be meant of the succeeding Pastors of the Church In which sense I affirme that like as the diuine doctrine not as contained in onely Scripture or as gathered thence by natural wit or priuate spirit but as deliuered by the Apostles or the Apostles as deliuering this doctrine was the rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all men liuing in their daies in all matters of faith So the same doctrine not as contained in onely Scripture nor as gathered thence by naturall wit or priuate spirit but as deliuered by Pastors of the succeeding Church or those Pastors as deliuering this doctrine is the rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all men liuing in succeding ages in all points of faith 3 This assertion I will grant as I did the former namely that the doctrine of the Pastors of the true Church such as succeed the Apostles is the rule and meanes of faith but the reader shall note two trickes that the Iesuite puts vpon him in the Proposition hereof First that affirming the doctrine of the succeeding Pastors of the Church to be the rule he saies not
epist de solit vit agent p. 647. graec Hieron catalog script in Fortunat. say that for feare of death he subscribed to the Arians Damasus i Damas vit Liberij saies that Vrsacius and Valence two Arian Bishops being sent to him by the Emperor he consented to him Diuers other examples are well knowne and commonly obiected Dominicus Bannes k Bann vbi sup pag. 115. saies the Pope as he is a Doctor and a priuate person may erre in matters of faith euen with pertinacy that he becomes an Hereticke And this conclusion he affirmes to be generally holden by all the ancient Bishops of Rome themselues and by all the schoole Doctors before Albertus Pighius and by the grauer sort of Doctors also since him And to what purpose should vniuersally all the Diuines of the Church of Rome till of late yeares so curiously debate the questions touching the Churches power ouer the Pope l Turre â—rem summ de eccl l. 2 c. 112. l. 4. part 2. c. 20. Caietan de author Pap. concil cap. 18. Anton. de Rosell Monarch tract de concil p. 67. Occham dialog l. 6. partis 1 c. 12. inde in case he should chance to be an Hereticke if they had thought with the Repliar that he could not be an Hereticke at all Alphonsus a Castro m Adu haeres l. 1. c. 4. saies euery man may erre in the faith although it be the Pope himselfe For touching Pope Liberius it is manifest he was an Arian and he that hath read histories doubts not but Anastasius fauoured the Nestorians I CANNOT BELEEVE THERE IS ANY MAN SO IMPVDENT A FLATTERER OF THE POPE AS TO SAY HE CANNOT ERRE or be deceiued in expounding the Scripture For when IT IS WELL KNOWNE THAT DIVERS OF THEM ARE SO VNLERANED THAT THEY ARE ALTOGETHER IGNORANT OF GRAMMAR how can they expound the sacred Scripture My Aduersarie therefore and his learned Cardinall are egregious flatterers and parasites to the Pope by Alphonsus verdict such as he presumed the world should neuer haue seene but he was deceiued we now see them and heare them and my Aduersary it seemes beleeues them n Aen. Sylu. comment in Panorm de dict fact Alph. l. 1. n. 3. Pope Iohn the 23 was woont to say when flatterers praised him though he knew they lied yet he felt himselfe something tickled with that they said Which humor of the Pope being now better knowne you must giue his seruants leaue to gratifie it 8 Secondly he saies All the best learned Catholicke Diuines agree that neuer any Pope did shall or can ex Cathedra define any error or heresie to be true faith or authoratatiuely teach the Church any thing contrary to the true faith Indeed this is the opinion of the most Papists now adaies deuised of late to put off the inconueniences that pressed them that whatsoeuer heresies and abhominations of the Pope were obiected they might be salued by this distinction that he taught them not out of the chaire but from his owne stoole But it is false that all the best learned Catholickes agree in it For very many of the ancienter sort held it not but the contrary whose learning will abide any comparison that can be made with the Iesuites that now so presumptuously assume from their predecessors all the learning to themselues Hadrian who himselfe was Pope o In 4. de sacra confirm sub finem affirmes it to be certaine that the Pope may erre euen in things touching the faith and auouch that which is heresie by his determination or decretall Turrecremata a Cardinall of that reputation for his learning p Catharin tract de certa sanct glor l. 1. that the Pope honoured him with the title of Protector of the faith assigning certaine cases wherein pertinacy or wilfulnesse in heresie lies q Turre crem sum de eccl l 4. part 2. c. 16. giues this for one The seuenteenth manner whereby the Pope specially may be conuinced of pertinacy in heresie is if he SOLEMNLY DEFINE THE ERROR and affirme it to be holden by Christians as Catholicke It was therefore r Azor. tom 2. moral l. 5. c. 4. his iudgement that the Pope might erre euen iudiciously è Cathedra Waldensis Å¿ Waldens doctrinal fid l. 2. c. 19 tom 1. affirmes that no Church or Councell no not the particular Church of Rome is free from error but onely the Catholicke Church dispersed all ouer the world from the times of Christ and his Apostles to this day If onely the Catholicke Church thus considered be free from error then he thought the Pope euery way howsoeuer might erre and his particular Church and colledge being allowed to helpe him yet they not being the Church mentioned in the creed in Waldens the innocent promoting the faithlesse defaming Catholicks exalting schismatickes hating good men oppressing the truth with all their power and by all meanes possible without feare aduancing forward hereticall prauitie The time alas is come whereof the blessed Apostle prophecied 2. Tim. 4. The time shall be when men will not abide wholesome doctrine but with itching eares shal heape to themselues teachers after their owne lusts and turning their eares from the truth shall giue heed to fables Which prophecie indeed is fulfilled in our dayes which I speake with griefe And that I may conclude in few words with a whores forehead and execrable boldnesse they hasten to subuert both King and law diuine and humane c. 9 The third thing the Reply sayes is that the Popes priuate errors cannot preiudice the Church But this is folly For who sees not that if his decrees be admitted to be infallible truths the Church shall be constrained by the consequence of this principle to receiue for such many of his errors the reason is because he cannot possibly decree otherwise then he priuatly thinkes and in decreeing he is not bound either to follow or vse the counsell of other Bishops in which case what hath he to leade him but his owne erronious priuate spirit They will say possible Gods promise and prouidence is to preserue him when he teaches the Church è Cathedra else the Church should be tied to an inconuenience and be bound to follow his errors I answer in a word that priuiledge shall be granted him when our aduersaries can shew vs where God hath made any such promise Those promises that are belong not to the Pope but to the vniuersall Church and the lawfull Councels thereof as the most ancient and learned Papists do for the most part expound Thus the Fathers of the Councels of Pisa Basil Constance Thus all the Diuines that hold a Councell to be aboue the Pope And this was the cause why in the ancient Church not the Bishop of Rome but a Councell was the highest iudge of all controuersies that fell out for which cause the Church in all ages hath vsed to call such Councels which needed
A DEFENCE OF THE WAY TO THE TRVE CHVRCH against A. D. his Reply Wherein The MOTIVES leading to Papistry And QVESTIONS touching the RVLE of Faith The AVTHORITIE of the Church The SVCCESSION of the Truth and The BEGINNING of Romish Innouations are handled and fully disputed By IOHN WHITE Doctor of Diuinity sometime of Gunwell and Caius Coll. in Cambridge I intreate and desire you all that setting aside what this or that man thinkes touching these matters you will inquire what the Scripture saies concerning them Chrysost in 2. Cor. hom 13. LONDON Printed for WILLIAM BARRET dwelling in Pauls Church-yard at the signe of the three Pigeons 1614. TO THE KINGS MOST EXCELLENT MAIESTIE IAMES BY THE grace of God King of great Brittaine France and Ireland defender of the Faith MOst dread and renowned Soueraigne may it please your excellent Maiestie Such is the power of true Religion and the hope that all men haue to be deliuered from error and their naturall miserie and to attaine supernaturall and eternall good thereby that they which haue tasted it cleaue vnto it more then to all the hopes of this life beside The law of thy mouth Psal 119. saith Dauid is better to me then thousands of gold and siluer This is the reason why the cause of religion and the state of our Church this day vnder your Highnesse most happy gouernement is so deare and acceptable to vs that the opposition and violence of our greatest enemies can neuer make vs weary of defending it but as the seruants of Isaac Gen. 26. when the Canaanites stopped their wels opened them againe and would neuer yeeld the inheritance of their master to the heards men of Gerar no more can we endure the truth of religion to be choaked with Popish heresies or the inheritance of our Lord to be taken from vs by the Swaines of Rome Nazianz orat 2. de Pace Gods blessed truth being of that value that in defence thereof his meekest seruants will stir and the mildest fight before it shall be indamaged by their forbearance Our assurance through Gods mercy of that we professe and the benefite of our faith and the certaine knowledge of our aduersaries vngodly and reprobate practises against it is such that no course of theirs can discourage vs no contention beate vs off no importunity make vs shrinke from that which we know to be the truth Aen. Sylu hist Bohem. When a certaine iester set on by others as it was thought in the presence of the king of Hungary spake to a Noble man of Prage touching his religion because he fancied not the Romish Seruice but was addicted to Rochezana a follower of Husse the Noble man gaue him this answer If thou speake of thy selfe thou art not the man thou conterfets and so I will answer thee as I would a wise man if by others setting on it is meete I satisfie them Heare me therefore Euery man vseth Church ceremonies agreeable to his faith and offers such sacrifices as he beleeues are acceptable with God it is not in our owne power to beleeue what we will THE MINDE OF MAN CONQVERED WITH POWERFVLL REASONS WILLING OR NILLING IS TAKEN CAPTIVE I am sufficiently resolued of the religiō I follow if I follow thine I may deceaue men but God that searches the hearts I cannot deceaue nor yet is it fit I should be like to thee one thing becomes a Iester and another thing a Nobleman this you may take to your selfe or report if you please to them that set you a worke This zeale of the truth and conscience surprised with the authority thereof is it which leades forward so many learned men of all sorts into contention with the Papists and constraines them both by vehement preaching and open writings to oppose them who neuer cease to corrupt the faith and poyson all sorts of people with discontent and violent hatred against their brethren and by the working of Iesuites and Seminaries much after the fashion of Antheninus the Mathematitian mentioned in Agathias to shake all the quarters of your kingdomes in which course through long practise and some conniuency and for want of straiter execution of the lawes against them the dangerous sequel whereof we will daily pray God to turne aside they are growne so vehement and fierie that scarce any part of our faith can please them no not the truthes that we hold in common with themselues nor any part of your Highnesse gouernment because it is not holdē in capite of the Pope Athenae The Stoikes beleeuing that none but a wise man could do any thing well concluded that therefore none but a wise man could make good pottage or season a messe of broth well and because in their conceite their master Zeno was the wisest of all men they concluded againe that the broth could not be good if it were not made after Zenoes direction whose vse was to prescribe to the twelfth part of a Coriander seed possible that he might haue primatum ollae or least the cookes of Lacedaemon should exempt themselues from his iurisdiction This Hildebrandine humor of ouerruling all things so possesseth our Aduersaries that now the Church of England hath neither God nor faith nor religion the King of England no crowne no dominion no subiects the state no iustice no lawes no gouernement because the Pope giues not the ingredients or confirmes them not I am the meanest person and least able of many and the best I can do falles short of that which these exquisite times require Theodor. de prouid l. 8. Theodorite saies The maiesty of things depends not a little vpon the manner of handling them and therefore such as meddle with any high argument haue neede of great power both of tongue and conceit because such as weigh the force of words more then the nature of things iudge of the things according to the weight or weakenesse of the words But the condition of the place where sometime I liued trāsported with much superstition and importuned with Romish Priests and their bookes and sometime their libelles set vpon our Church doores drew vpon me a necessity of doing what I was able when for diuers yeares I was inforced by priuate writings and conference to maintaine or expound what I preached openly The benefite whereof I found to be such both in stablishing my owne conscience and recouering the people and repelling such as seduced them that I was easily drawne forward to proceede and much of my time to bestow in dealing with the Seminaries vntill at the length it is now come to this that I am inforced in the open veiw of the world what I haue spoken in the eare Mat. 10.27 secretly that to publish on the house-top and now againe the second time to do that which I thought at the first to do but once My owne priuate condition is not such that I should greatly care what any man write against me all that
reade my Aduersaries Reply will easily perceaue him vnworthy to be honoured by an Answer and most vnworthy to haue his name or Caracters mentioned in your Highnesse presence but when the cause it selfe is Gods and belongs as part thereof to the common cause of our Church I would not by despising a meane Aduersary forsake it or giue occasion to any that had vsed my former Booke to misdoubt what I haue written but hauing in my priuate life many spare howres whereof I must one day giue account I would bestow them the best way in doing something that might helpe my countreymen out of their superstition And although my Aduersary with whom I deale be of no great note for the Heralds cannot finde his pedigree till they come to Noes Arke yet his arguments and discourse transcribed from Doctor Stapleton and Gregory of Valence two of their chiefest writers being such as are most vsed for the depressing of the Scripture and succession of our Church and for the aduancing of the Popes authority in the matters of faith I vnderstand to be so gratefull to Zenoes disciples by reason they relish so pleasingly of the Coriāder that I haue thought it not amisse to bestow my answer that if reason and the truth will do it they may be satisfied The truth is of that composition and strength it selfe that God can relieue it by his weakest instruments in whom he shewes his power and workemanship against his proudest aduersaries Deus ita artifex magnus in magnis vt minor non sit in minimis And therefore S. Austine confesses to him Omnipotens manus tua semper vna eadem creauit in coelo Angelos in terra vermiculos non superior in illis non inferior in istis And this my poore indeauour I most humbly present to your Highnesse whose gracious speeches not long since to me both touching my former writing and this Defence thereof then scarce begun haue imboldened me though my owne affection I thinke it selfe would haue swayed me herein if I had neuer seene your Highnesse The generall apprehension of the good which the Church obtaines by your most gracious zeale and constancy for religion the liuely sence whereof infuseth it selfe as the soule into the parts of the body into all quarters not of your kingdome alone but of the Christian world round about vs moues all men to your Highnesse whose sufferings endured for the same at the hands of Antichrist his ministers haue taught vs that the greatest Princes liuing as well as meaner persons may be persecuted for the testimony of Christ and being possessed with the zeale of his house can and will in defence thereof expose themselues their crown their reputation their children their life and all the hopes of this world to the most imbruted enemies that euer were and neglecting the deceiueable pleasures of their Court and trampling their owne greatnesse vnder their feete can tell how to make themselues a way to eternity and by cleauing to the Church and resisting Antichrist assure their state and make their honour greater and lay vp in their bosome the assured hope of a better kingdome in the world to come This is it most dread Soueraigne that affects vs all and leades your poore subiects towards you that now whatsoeuer any is able to speake to write to thinke to breath he thinkes to be yours by right by whose meanes and example all men speake and write and thinke breath the purer Veget. procem ad Valentinian and in affection where Princes reigne but by permission we feele our selues to be yours so farre that vnfainedly we think Neque recte aliquid inchoari nisi post Deum fauerit Imperator Which our Aduersaries shall now giue vs leaue to say the freelier where the Kings learning matches his power and without the helpe of any mans flattery is seene to board their Colledges that whose countries and persons he gouernes not by his lawes their Schooles and consciences he begins to ouerrule with his disputations Which thing we hold to be so farre from impairing Royall dignity that * Suarez he who hath said it must hereafter be deemed one of the King of Arragons oxen when Non hominis sed Bouis vocem este respondit Alphons apud Anton Panorm l. 1. Naueler after so many mightie Princes in all ages honoured more for their learning and writing◠then for all their greatnesse besides Dauid Solomon Iulius Caesar Constantine and Charles the Great Iustinian Leo Palaeologus Cantacuzenus the Alphonsi and diuers more after the Emperour Sigismund commended for playing the Deacon at the Councell of Constance Henry the eight writing for the seauen Sacraments whose booke subscribed with his hand they glory to haue in the Vatican Posseuin Concil Mediol 1. sub Borthom the Cardinall of Millan thinking it the highest commendation he could giue the late king of Spaine in eius regia dignitate vt verbo complectar sacerdotalem animum licet aspicere he will now haue the vse of your Highnesse pen in maintenance of your lawes and religion and whereby most graciously it pleased you to offer them instruction before you would execute your authority against them to be the laying by of your imperiall dignity neuer remembring that for a king to descend to the Preacher I the Preacher haue bene king in Ierus Eccl. 1.12 is the worke of piety and clemency towards his subiects but for the Priest to climbe into the kings throne and play the Monarch is the brand of Antichrist 2 Sam. 14. The King is as the angel of God in hearing of good and bad his words will seasonably giue your Highnesse occasion by speedy and diligent execution of your lawes to let Iesuites and Seminaries and the disciples of Hildebrand see you are a King still that by assuming the Doctor when you please can teach them their duties and by exercising your power when you haue done will repell their practises with effect and free your people from their presumptions Their shamelesse abusing your Highnesse lenity and taking spirit by being suffered to multiplie their contestations against your sacred person gouernement and people makes vs all wish when Edicts do no good they might heare the Lyon rore that his voice might once chase such cowardly beasts out of the forrest and vnearth them too if they would still be running into their holes for harbour The Landgraue of Hesse a milde and gracious Prince but whose clemencie was much abused being cast by aduenture on a Smithes forge ouerheard what the Smith said all the while he was striking his iron Oth. Meland Duresce inquam duresce vtinam Langrauius durescat And the presumption of this generation is such in corrupting the truth with their bookes and opposing it with their heresies in casting the state also and your sacred person into those manifest and dismall perills from which they will neuer desist so long as they are among vs that your
which must be acknowledged when tyrants and such as feare not God by their euill gouernement and neglect of religion many times darken the aire and hinder the raine and make the fields barren and riuers empty Pliny enquiring the reason why the fields adioyning to Rome in old time were so fruitfull saies It was because they were tilled by the chiefe gouernours such as Fabritius and Cincinnatus were Ipsorum tunc manibus Imperatorum colebantur agri gaudente terra vomere laureato triumphali aratore Which your Maiesty doing so painefully with your owne hands in a more noble field the Church of God all godly minded shall bid God speed the plow and daily waite till the briars and thornes be rooted out and the dew of Gods grace fall on the barren part that the Plowman may neuer be wearie nor his hand weake nor his workmen vnfaithful to him but all that are about him and his Noble seruants by his example may giue ouer sleeping and put their hand without looking backe to the same worke that the enuious man that soweth tares may be driuen forth and their owne houses may be the greenest and cleanest part of the field till he come that shall giue end and rest to euery labour and recompence beyond all that can be thought the workmans trauell and binding the good corne in sheaues cast the tares into vnquenchable fire God euermore continue and increase his mercies to your Highnesse and lay your enemies at your feete that you may see an end of all dissentions and stablish peace and vnity in the Church Your Maiesties most humble subiect IOHN WHITE To the Reader IT is now fiue yeares since I published a booke called THE WAY TO THE TRVE CHVRCH wherein my purpose was nothing else but onely to shew the weakenesse and insufficiency of those Motiues which leade so many to Papistrie and to bring to triall such reasons as the Iesuites and Seminaries ground themselues vpon in perswading their people against vs making it more then plaine that the corruptions of the Church of Rome are maintained and the communion of our Church in the doctrine preaching and the Sacraments thereof is refused by such as follow the Papacy vpon weake and false grounds that cannot be defended This poore booke it seemes hath not a little incensed my Aduersary and discontented many that yet should follow reason and the truth of things and not be transported with rumor and common impression For man being a noble creature endued with reason and faculty to discourse and hauing a rule left him of God whereby to examine things should not tie his faith and conscience to the authority or person of any more then the truth and the reason and euidence of that be saies will beare him out It was neuer heard of in the world till now of late yeares that the Pope and his definitions were the rule of faith or that men were bound to follow whatsoeuer he should appoint but the Church of God euery where till tyranny oppressed it examined his doctrine accepting and allowing that which agreed with the sacred Scriptures and the first antiquity and reiecting the rest and albeit many errors had long prescription yet the godly still held them to that rule of our Sauiour BVT FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO. Mat. 19.8 Our Aduersaries therefore may in some points possible pretend antiquitie but PRIORITIE which is the first and best antiquitie they cannot in any one thing wherein they refuse vs and whether the zealous and resolued Recusants will beleeue it or no yet it is certainely true there is no one point of Papistry Catholicke that is to say such as hath bene from the beginning generally receiued as an article of faith by the vniuersall Church And though it be granted that many parts of his religion haue long continued in the world yet were they neuer the certaine or generall doctrines of the Church but the corruptions of some therein which in time and by degrees obtained that strength and credit which now they haue it being the easiest thing of a thousand for the Pope and his clergie sitting at the sterne when themselues had once imbraced them with their strength and learning to giue them authority in the world when Mahomet himselfe by policy and tyrannie was able in time to spread abroad and a vniuersally the doctrine of his Alchoran which now is 800 yeare old and is followed by many and great nations as close as Papistrie is either in England or Italy But whē the Scripture makes it plaine that FROM THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO and the Histories and monuments of antiquity and the bookes of the elder Papists and such as were chiefe in the Church of Rome beare witnesse that these things were misliked and in all ages complained of and that which the Church of England now professes was the faith of most godly men and holy Bishops though the power of the gouernors in the Church of Rome increasing they were suppresed they do but deceiue themselues that thinke our faith a new faith or the points of Papistrie the old religion I haue as well as I haue bene able and as diligently as I could with an vnpartiall eie and many teares to God for his direction in the businesse and with a heart hating contention and possessed as much as any mans liuing with desire of peace and vnity whereof my 17 yeares residence in Lancashire can giue plentifull witnesse read the Scriptures and trauelled through the writings of the Fathers and obserued the course of former times and well aduised my selfe of that which the learned of the Church of Rome in later times haue written from the elder Schoolemen to the later Iesuites though with all humility I acknowledge my selfe to be the meanest of any that haue taken this course and much lament my owne weaknesse yet am I readie whensoeuer God the Iudge of all secrets and the terrible reuenger of falsehood and partiality shall call me foorth of this world to testifie that my faith and religion and the points thereof maintained in my writings and preaching is the truth agreeable to the first antiquity and the contrary defended by the Iesuites and followed by Romish Recusants error and vncatholicke And if any persons presumed to be learned on the other side haue either in their life or death shewed extraordinary zeale for their Roman faith I desire I may be allowed my owne knowledge both of some such persons and of their iudgement and outward cariage and not be importuned to follow that which vnskilfull and vnable and partiall friends haue apprehended rather then my owne cleare knowledge both of them and their cause And if the Church of Rome haue in it diuers learned betweene whom and vs my Aduersaries will indure no comparison that write against vs yet my certaine experience of their manner of writing one against another and against knowne antiquitie and their strange maintenance of the foulest and
vnworthiest things that are and my knowledge of the meanes whereby and the ends whereto they are trained vp to this writing and my daily exercise in their bookes haue long since remooued from me all opinion of them and taught me that learning as beawty can play the baude and make them loue it that shall fall by it and inamoured of it that little know the danger of it Let the seuerall points of their faith which with that learning they maintaine be well vnderstood and considered for the most vnderstand them not and let the manner of their proceeding in that they defend be iudiciously looked into and it will easily appeare that learning and wit Gen. 38. like Thamar hath prostituted her selfe and sits in the highway and so she may haue children she will deceiue Iudah her owne father And when all learning and the ripest wits and holiest Diuines the Church of Rome hath are now wholly imploied in maintaining the Popes power ouer Princes absoluing subiects from their alleagiance excusing equiuocating and the POWDER-TREASON and making the actors Martyrs and dissoluing the very ioints and bands whereby the world and Christian society is holden together it is high time to let the authoritie of mens persons alone and looke another while into the reasons and causes they maintaine and when they haue found the truth to cease from contending and labour by obedience and submission therunto to bring glory to God that our tongues may professe and our liues glorifie his heauenly Maiestie Hauing therefore written in my former booke to this effect and plainely shewed all this and much more that my countreymen and the people of our nation if they pleased might see the triall of things it is fallen out that the Romish side findes it selfe in an extraordinary manner touched therewith after many rumors vowes to confute me at last about 18. monethes since I receaued this Reply which here thou seest And although I take no pleasure in contentious writings but as time shall shew if I continue my course and God giue meanes intend that which shall cleare the controuersies without contention yet when I had heard many reports of something that would be done with effect against me I was willing to giue satisfaction againe least the ignorant might be perswaded something was writtē indeed that could not be answered It is not vnlikely but others also for they haue more helps meanes and leasure then I haue as soone as they can be furnished wil be doing more may yet be written for so he sends me word that writ the last Triumph of Purgatory an Author that sure will ouerthrow the Chariot and lay all in the mire if he be set to driue it and so I haue bene often told and sent word and therefore if any shall chance to write in forme and without passion whereof this man is full and with modesty will say what he thinks speaking directly and home to that I haue said without declining or shrinking from the point that presses him that I may finde him an honest minded man and not a Mercurialist I will gratifie him againe with the same that he brings and freely reuoke and confesse any error that he shall shew to haue escaped me If I be otherwise dealt with that nothing be sought but the disgrace of my persō vndirect discrediting of my booke it is likely that I shall take my resolution from the circumstances of my aduersary when I see him and do as his booke against me shall deserue In the meane time be admonished of 4. things touching this Reply and my owne Defence First that whereas he hath in the same booke written against M. wootton a learned Diuine as well as me I meddle onely with that which concernes my selfe and therefore taking his booke before me I answer onely the passages that are against me Next all that I meddle with is set downe verbatim as it lies and the number of his page in the margent ouer against his text Then I haue in this sort gone through his whole booke til within a little of the end which containing no new matter but the same that I had occasion to answer diuers times afore I would lose no time about it Fourthly I haue answered fully and directly to euery word he saieth by which diligence I haue benefited the Reader so much that howsoeuer my Aduersary may seeme meane and vnworthy confuting yet he shall not lose his labour in reading but finde my paines bestowed profitably vpon him such as he is who yet to giue him his due though he raile hard and vnciuilly and write an obscure and vnpleasing stile hath replied with all the best and sutablest arguments he could finde in Stapleton Bellarmine and Valentia touching the points depending and onely failes in replying to that which I had answered before Hereafter let me intreate the good and courteous Reader if he will vouchsafe to vse my writings not to iudge of them but by his owne triall and examination For they haue secretly to their wel-willers laid imputations vpon them who being surprised with conceit are afraid to make the triall or to meete the truth The quotations for example or Authors alledged may be challenged reported to be false yet this Reply hath charged but onely one in all his booke and they which haue bene lowdest and earnestest may finde in such a multitude possible some to proue that the diligentest writer may be ouerseene but the substance they cannot discredit If I haue erred in any thing or mistaken an Author I acknowledge my selfe to be a man that may erre and I humbly submit what I haue done not onely to the Church wherein I liue but to euery moderate and peaceable minded man therein yea I will with all respect of his person heare and aduise of any thing that an aduersary shall informe me of if he will hold the rules of Christian truth and charity and go forward with me in that course to seeke the truth which all men see euermore to be lost where words and wrangling giue the sound And I intreate euen those that cleaue most to the Church of Rome to perswade themselues that whatsoeuer I haue written is for their sakes that if it were possible they might discerne the truth offered them and the wickednesse of the Iesuites that leade them I maligne no mans person I hate none that is among them but being called to be a Preacher of the Gospell I am desirous to bestow my spare houres in maintenance of that I preach and for the which I were ready to sacrifice my life much more to bestow my time and trauell that if it might so please God we might be all as one and the state and gouernement wherein we liue be no longer tossed and intangled with our disagreements They cannot but see that God by establishing the Kings throne and blessing it against the malice vnnatural practises of their Church giues testimony on our
A wonder not farre from Rome Writers not putting their names to their bookes censured by the Iesuites The Popes Iester The name of Minister and Priest Church the pillar of truth The way of Catholicke discipline is the way of the Scripture The Iesuites Method in perswading to Papistry The manner of A. D. his Replying and his promise to raile Chap. 2. The Papists trampling of the Scriptures and preferring their Church The Church of Rome touched in her honesty and reputed for a whore The conditions of a whore Chap. 3. The order of the Iesuites why and to what purpose erected by the Pope they are that to the Pope that the Ianisaries are to the Turke Their aboadments Chap. 4 Some examples of the Iesuites rapine Touching the present Pope Paule 5. and his nephew Burghesi The Iesuites deuouring those that entertaine thē Chap. 5. Touching the rapine and couetousnesse of the Romish Cleargy And their single life and what the world hath thought thereof Chap. 6. Touching the turbulency of our Iesuites and Maspriests in the State and their vnthankefulnesse to the King The seditious doctrine of the Church of Rome leading to all disobedience against the Magistrate and rebellion whēsoeuer occasion shall serue Tyrones rebellion and the Spanish inuasion promoted by the Pope A Catalogue of about forty Emperors Kings and Princes destroyed or vexed by the Pope and his Cleargy A consideration vpon the doctrine of the Popes power to depose kings Chap. 7. Concerning the doctrine of Merits taught in the Church of Rome and touching the Bull of Pius and Gregory against Michael Bayus the Deane of Louane Chap. 8. The Papacy brought in by Sathan The Iesuits spirit of contradiction The Church of Rome reuolted The fiue Patriarkes were equall at the first Plaine Scripture against the Papacy The ignorance of Popish laity Corruption of writings by the Papists Reformation desired long before it came Aduice giuen to A.D. Chap. 9. The Apocrypha not accounted Canonicall Scripture Papists professing to expound against the Fathers The new English translation of the Bible Traditions equalled with the holy Scripture About the erring of Councels And the sufficiencie of the Scriptures Chap. 10. The practise of the Papists in purging bookes The sacrifice of the Masse and reall presence denied Points of Papists absurd The Pope Lords it ouer all Papists need pay no debts May be traitors to murder Princes Iesuites plots in the powder-treason The Popes dispensing with sinne A meditation for all Papists Chap. 11. The Papists manner of dealing with immodesty and vncharitablenesse Briarly and Walsinghams bookes noted Some reports of the Papists meeknesse and mildnesse Hunt a Seminary arraigned at Lancaster The dumbe cattle slaughtered in Lancash The generall desire of vs all to reduce them to charity Chap. 12. Touching the ignorance that Papistrie hath bred among people Their barbarous manner of praying auoched Of Iohn the Almoner a legend The manner how a certaine Priest baptised The Replies zeale for recusants of the better sort A Lancash gentleman alledged by the Reply A note of a French Knight The successe of preaching in Lancash Chap. 13. Touching prayer to Saints Mediation of redemption and intercession Bonauentures Psalter Christ the onely mediator of intercession Reasons why we desire not the dead to pray for vs as we do the liuing The prayers of a Friar and an Archbishop It cannot be shewed that the dead heare vs. Deuices of the Schoolemen to shew how they heare vs. God not like an earthly King In their Saint-inuocating they Platonize Men equalled with Christ Chap. 14. More touching the worship of Saints The same words vsed to Saints that are to God The formall reason of worship The harsh praiers made to Saints how excused Nauarres forme of deuotion Counterfeits bearing the name of Fathers S. Austines doctrine to vse no mediator but Christ Chap. 15. The Iesuits insolency censured Note bookes A relation shewing how the Iesuites traine vp their nouices to dispute The doctrine of the Iesuites touching formall lies and equiuocation The Repliars motion to Protestant Ministers answered Chap. 16. Touching assurance of grace and beleeuing a mans owne saluation Perfection of the Scripture and necessity of the Church Ministry How the iustified conclude their saluation from the Scripture The iustified haue the assurance of faith This is declared full assurance voide of doubting taught by the most in the Church of Rome Touching perseuerance Chap. 17. Concerning points fundamentall and not fundamentall the distinction expounded and defended Who shall iudge what is fundamentall and what not A iest at the election of Pope Leo the x. Chap. 18. Touching the perpetuall virginity of Marie The celebration of Easter The baptisme of infants The Iesuits halting And the Scriptures sufficiency Chap. 19. How the Church proues the Scripture The Iesuites plainely confesse that the Scripture alone proues it selfe to be Gods word The Scriptures are principles indemonstrable in any superior science All other testimonies resolued into the testimony of the Scripture Touching euidence and the compossibility thereof with faith Chap. 20 A continuation of the same matter touching the Churches authority in giuing testimony of the Scriptures The Scripture proues it selfe to be Gods word The light of the Scripture How we are assured of the Scripture by the Spirit The reason why some see not the light of the Scripture The Papists retyring to the Spirit And casting off the Fathers A Councell is aboue the Pope The Pope may erre Chap. 21. Which is the Militant Church And the Catholicke The Church of the elect inuisible A rancid conceite of the Iesuite Chap. 22. Reports made by Papists that the Protestants are without religion They hold the iustification of the Gentiles without the Gospell or knowledge of Christ No saluation but in one true religion The Repliars tergiuersation Chap. 23. Touching the implicit faith that is taught in the Church of Rome How defined by them In what sense the Protestants mislike or allow it Arguments made for it answered The ancient Church allowed it not Chap. 24. Touching the necessitie and nature of the Rule of faith And how it is reuealed and communicated to all men that none need to despaire Chap. 25. The text of 1. Tim. 2.4 God wils all men to be saued c. expounded The diuerse expositions that are giuen of those words Gods antecedent will as they call it is not his will formally The antecedent and consequent will of God expounded diuerse wayes Chap. 26. The properties of the rule of faith described None follow priuate spirits more then our aduersaries How the Rule must be vnpartial and of authority Chap. 27. The Repliars tergiuersation The state of the question touching the sufficiencie of the Scripture alone and the necessity of the Church ministery The speeches of diuers Papists against the perfection of the Scripture In what sence the Scripture alone is not sufficient Chap. 28. Touching our English translations of the Bible their sinceritie and infalliblenesse How
the vnlearned know them to be sincere The new translation lately set foorth by the Kings authoritie defended Momus in his humor The subordination of meanes Chap. 29. Touching the obscuritie of the Scripture The necessitie of meanes to be vsed for the vnderstanding of the Scripture proues not the obscuritie Traditions debarred A Councell is aboue the Pope The Scripture of it selfe easie to all that vse it as they should The certaine sence of the Scripture and the assurance thereof is not by tradition Chap. 30. Touching the all-sufficiencie of Scripture to the matter of faith It shewes it selfe to be Gods word Luthers denying S. Iames epistle How the Papists expound the light of the Scripture What they and what we hold about the authoritie of the Church How expresse Scripture is required Chap. 31. Wherein the place 2. Tim. 3.15 alledged to proue the fulnesse and sufficiencie of the Scripture alone is expounded and vrged against the Iesuites cauils Chap. 32. Touching priuate spirits that expound against the Church Such priuate expositions refused by the Protestants And yet the Papists haue no other All teaching is to be examined euen by priuate men Certaine propositions shewing how the Church teaching may be or may not be examined and refused Chap. 33. How a priuate man is assured he vnderstands and beleeues aright touching the last and highest resolution of faith Luthers reiecting the Fathers Occhams opinion that no man is tied to the Pope or his Councels The Beraeans examined the doctrine that they were taught The faith of the beleeuer rests vpon diuine infused light M. Luther sought reformation with all humilitie Scripture is the grounds of true assurance Who the Pastors were of whom Luther learned his faith His conference with the Diuel By the Church the Papists meane onely the Pope Chap. 34. The Papists pretending the Church haue a further meaning then the vulgar know The Popes will is made the Churches act Base traditions expounded to be diuine truth Chap. 35. The Papists pretending the Church meane onely the Pope How and in what sence they vnderstand the doctrine of the Apostles to be the rule of faith They hold that the Pope may make new articles of faith And that the Scripture receiues authoritie from him Vnlearned men may see the truth when the Pope and his crew sees it not And they may iudge of that they teach The Iesuites dare not answer directly Chap. 36. An entrance into the question touching the visibilitie of the Protestant Church in the former ages Wherein it is briefly shewed where and in whom it was Chap. 37. Not the Church but the Scripture is the rule The question touching the visiblenesse of the Church proceeds of the Militant Church In what sence we say the Militant Church is sometime inuisible The Papists thinke the Church shall be inuisible in the time of Antichrist Their contradictions touching Antichrist breefly noted Chap. 38. The Papists cannot proue the Church to be alway visible in that sence wherein we denie it The diuerse considerations of the Church distinguished His quarrels made for our doctrine touching the Churches seuerall states answered The faithfull onely are true members of the Church Vpon what occasion the question touching the visiblenesse of the Church first began Chap. 39. The Papists are enforced to yeeld the same that we say touching the inuisiblenesse of the Church Their doctrine touching the time of Antichrists reigne And the state of the Militant Church at some times Arguments for the perpetuall visiblenesse of the Church answered In whom the true Church consisted before Luthers time Chap. 40. Againe touching the visiblenesse of the Church and in what sence we say it was inuisible Many things innouated in the Church of Rome The complaints of Vbertine and Ierome of Ferrara All the Protestants faith was preserued in the middest of the Church of Rome A iest of the Terinthians What religion hath bred desperation Chap. 41. A narration of a popish Doctor and professor of diuinitie in the Church of Rome translated out of Acosta de temp nouissimis lib. 2. cap. 11. and Maiolus dies canicul tom 2. pag. 89. and inserted for answer to that wherewith the Iesuite reproches our Church in the last words of his precedent replie Chap. 42. An obiection against the Repliars Catalogue Diuers articles condemned by the Fathers mentioned in the Catalogue that the Church of Rome now vses What consent there is betweene antiquitie and papistrie Chap. 43. Whatsoeuer the Fathers of the primitiue Church beleeued is expressed in their bookes The Repliar is driuen to say they held much of his religion onely implicitely What implicite faith is according to the Papists The death of Zeuxis The Fathers writ that which cannot stand with papistrie Chap. 44. The whole Christian faith deliuered to the Church hath succeeded in all ages yet many corruptions haue sometime bene added how and in what sence the Church may erre A Catalogue assigned of those in whom the Protestants faith alway remained What is required to the reason of succession Chap. 45. The Fathers are not against the Protestants but with them Touching the Centuries reiecting of the Fathers The cause of some errors in the Fathers Gregories faith and conuerting England The Papists haue bene formall innouators How they excuse the matter Chap. 46. The errors broached by the later Diuines of the Church of Rome Their errors maintained by that Church and their writings to good purpose alledged by Protestants How that which they speake for the Protestants is shifted of One reason why we alledge their sayings That which is said in excuse of their disagreement answered Chap. 47. Councels haue erred and may erre What manner of Councels they be that the Papists say cannot erre It is confessed that both Councels and Pope may erre Chap. 48. Touching the Councels of Neece the second and Frankford How the Nicene decreed images to be adored What kind of Councell it was And what manner of one that of Frankford was Frankford cōdemned the second Nicene Touching the booke of Charles the Great and of what credit it is Chap. 49. The ancient Church held the blessed Virgin to haue bene conceiued in sinne The now Church of Rome holds the contrary Chap. 50. Touching Seruice and praier in an vnknowne language The text 1. Cor. 14. expounded and defended against Bellarmine The ancient Church vsed praier in a knowe language Chap. 51. The Church of Rome against all antiquitie forbids the laie people the vse of the Scripture in the vulgar language The shifts vsed by the Papists against reading spitefull speeches against it Testimonies of antiquitie for it The Repliars reason against it Chap. 52. The mariage of Priests and Bishops lawfull and allowed by antiquitie Some examples hereof in the ancient Church The restraint hereof is a late corruption Priests were maried euen in these westerne parts a thousand yeares after Christ Chap. 53. Wherein is handled the doctrine of the Church of Rome touching the
worship of images and the distinctions whereby the same is maintained are examined And our aduersaries finally conuicted of giuing Gods honor to their images The ancient Church was against image worship Chap. 54. The Popes supremacy was not in the ancient Church neither is it acknowledged at this day by many Papists Nunne Brigets speech touching the Pope And Cyrils riddle Chap. 55. The Communion in ancient time was ministred to the people in both kinds An innouation in this point in the Church of Rome The pretences vsed against the Cup. Chap. 56. Touching Transubstantiation It was made an article of faith by the Lateran Councell 1200 yeares after Christ How it came in by degrees The Fathers neuer beleeued nor knew it Chap. 57. Touching the first coming in of errors into the Church with the Persons Time and Place Purgatory and pardons not knowne in the ancient Church nor in the Greeke Church to this day The true reason why the ancient prayed for the dead Chap. 58. The Popes supremacy Single life of Votaries The worship of images The merite of workes The sacrifice of the Masse And the Popish doctrine touching originall sinne all of them innouations The disagreement of Papists in their religion And namely in their doctrine of originall sinne Chap. 59. Obiections against the outward succession of the Pope Touching Peters being at Rome His Pastorall office what it was Whether there be any diuine authoritie for the Popes succession Not certaine what Popes haue succeeded one another Vacancies diuers times in the Sea of Rome The storie of the woman Pope of what credite The Pope hath bene an heriticke and erred è Cathedra The Pope succeeds by Simonie and violence Such succession is a nullitie by his owne law The Pharisees in Moses chaire how A. D. defends the succession of an ASSE Many Popes at once Vrbanus his crueltie towards the Cardinals What the Protestants say touching the succession of the Church of Rome Good Reader in the printing of this Booke some faults are committed some whereof are not great but the rest noted with this marke * concerne the sence or reading more materially The marginall quotations some excepted I could not correct but hope they are reasonable perfect Correct them as followeth The first number signifieth the page the second the line Page 3. line 26. shreene skreene 8. 12 it is good it is a good 11 25. downe downe 14. 11. vse vseth 16.14 Lonel Louel 20 11.* her mot er our mother * and it was when it was 24 19. Cuyckins Cuyckius 34 5 * the king Now may the king how may 15. * possible impossible 36.5 not so much not much 38 11.* seauenth second 45. 26. Anard Ruard 60. 2 * of minde of winde 71. 3 ingeniously ingenuously 80. 27 * serueth seemeth 81 16. * against him his against his 86. 26. compiled fraud fraud compiled 94. 35. * see see 103. 13. Sato Soto 105. 15 * vncerten And vncerten and 106. 11. please pleaseth 109. 1. * to heauen to haue 112.28 the like the life 113 5 * in cause in state 116 1 * charging Chargeth 138. 9 * one promise on praemis 145. 20. none now 14â— 10. * Casenists Casuists 148. 10. this a poore this poore 14 and them put it forth 34. to beleeue not to beleeue 156. 27. contriued contained 157.30 yeed yeeld 174 4 * in themselues in the Scripture 180. 35. * visible inuisible 181 14.* inuisible members inuisible the members 188. â—6 answer for answer For. 192. 23. that which the which 194. 11 Henriquex Henriquez 199. 33. * Eusebius Justine Martyr 200. 20. daughter sonne 213 9 * this of God this will of God 12. as they call such as they call 226. 21. or* his purp for his purp 228. 5. none noe 229. 18. * no mans one mans 230 2. by othes by others 12 * the works euâ—â— the sinne euen of corrupt masse was not but was 238. 29. * deliberate not deliberate 245. 34. * the cause since the conscience 259. 29. * He replies sec he replies Secondly 264. 23. saies it ouer saith it ouer and ouer 265. 25. or translation of translation 275. 28. * motion notion 286. 31. lastly put it out and set the figure 7 that followes there 287. 16. conceiued conteined 21. dives diuerse 299. 1. * what heresies what he replies 304. 35. * in the fourth proposition in fower propositions 311. 3 is is it is it 315. 9. * first and last hiest and last 318. 12. RIGHR RIGHT 319. 26. may do can do 335. 16 knownes not knowes not 341. 20. we might impart we impart 367. 32. * vniuersall vniuocall 368. 7 manner matter 373. 21. held in the substance nor held the substance 381. 37. euer by euen by 403. 18. them them that them that 414. 30 * yet many yet the maine 437.9 Nanâ—us Nonnus 448. 26. Councell Councels 460. 15. had bene haue bene 471. 24. * as the profite all the profite 485. 18. * Then I haue Thus J haue 450. 8. And expounds how and he expounds how 505. 6. not with not onely with 504. 23. * to any other to â—â—â—ther 511. 31. * be reuolued be renewed 513. 33. * shewed them thawed them 527. 17. that contrary the contrary 529. 4. * Againe whether Againe whereas 532 1.* that it is sinne some that it is sinne 11. That it some that it 13. That it some that it 544 4 * alleadged alleadging 29. VNLERA VNLEAR In the Margent I obserued by the way Pag. â—7 letter c c. 52. Ch. 53. 23. r orthodonograph orthodoxagraph 24. * see c. 53. see Ch. 52. 38. r Sano Saxon. 67. c. Chap. 35. 1 Ch. 34. 1. 35. â— 77. â— * Ch. 54. Ch. 53. 95. d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 108. u put forth the whole quotation ** 113. d Abulens parad l. 34. Abul parad l. c. 34. 121. * came to come to * 133. line 15. action occasion * 148. * cap. 35. and 36. chap. 34. and 35. * 158 * cap. 28.3 chap. 27. 3. * 194. * see vers see Gerson 261. e Philocrat Philostrat 280. i noted afore noted afore pag. 62 in the marg 528. â— Abul in Sent. Abul in Deuteron THE WAY TO THE TRVE CHVRCH defended against A.D. his Reply CHAP. 1. 1. The title of A.D. his reply A wonder not farre from Rome 2. Writers not putting their names to their bookes censured by the Iesuites The Popes iester 3. The name of Minister and Priest 4. Church the pillar of truth 5. The way of Catholick discipline is the way of the Scripture 6. The Iesuits Method in perswading to Papistrie 7. The maner of A.D. his replying and his promise to raile THis A.D. hauing taken my booke into his correction intitles what he hath written against it A REPLY made vnto M. Anthonie Wootton and M. Iohn White MINISTERS wherein it is shewed that they haue not sufficiently answered the TREATISE OF FAITH and wherein also the truth of the chiefe points of the said TREATISE is
more clearely declared and more strongly confirmed by A.D. student in Diuinitie Wherein I mislike diuers things First that he stiles it A REPLY which is nothing lesse when he replies neither to all nor in forme to any thing but onely repeating the conclusions and arguments of some part of the Treatise mentioned and without any order making choise of what he lists in my booke to confute he sets downe my answers imperfectly and skipping from one thing to another and dissembling or quite omitting the strength and substance of that I writ he replies to few things in comparison and most an end occupies himselfe in rehearsing things that he should haue defended This is a sorie kind of Replying and a We hold it VNWORTHY the title of an Answer wherein all the authors best reasons are dissembled and quite omitted Bâ—â—arl protest apol p 61 vnworthy the Title especially in these dayes when our Seminaries haue challenged to themselues such an opinion of substantiall dealing and going through-stitch with euery thing they take in hand and the poore Booke hauing bene so terribly threatned They haue had it now foure yeares to blow vpon and many heauie imputations haue bene layed vpon it by no meane persons of their sect that would seeme to haue skill and courage and is all now resolued into this poore REPLY If they thought it vnworthy the answering why would they meddle with it If they would needs be medling why haue they not done it sincerely and in forme I haue b Onus eccl p. 30. n. 13. read how not farre from Rome there hath bene heard in the aire as it were the noise of an armie and blowing of trumpets and going off of gunnes as if there had bene some great businesse towards and yet when men haue come neare to view they haue seene nothing but a heard of swine and the footings of certaine strange beasts vpon the ground this be like was to warne the Pope that the noise of his champions and clamouâ—s of his people was but a meteore that would end in a little gruntling and trampling 2 Next I mislike the concealing of his name and shrouding of himselfe vnder a couple of letters yet because the ordinary practise thereof seemes to haue legitimated it I will forbeare all other kinde of censuring and onely in the words of three of his owne side let him see what I might say of it The first is c Search p. 16. Walsingham When I came to view and peruse the booke and finding it to be without name of author hauing onely a most bitter intitulation I began first to maruell at that because I did see no reason why any Protestant writer should conceale his name in so worthy a matter as is the defence of his religion for which his labour and learned trauell he might assuredly hope for so great praise and commendation not onely from men but reward from God also whose truth and Gospell he should acquit from such and so great blemishes of falshood and vntruth as were by the aduersaries thereof obiected against it So he The second is Cardinall Bellarmine d Tract de potest sum Pont. adu Baâ—cl praefat Hee that set foorth Barklies booke neither put to his name nor the name of the Printer or place where it was printed he was afraid belike and not without cause either that he should be punished or discommended for it These are no signes of a good worke For he that euill doth hateth the light lest his workes be reproued whereas he that doth the truth comes to the light that his workes may be knowne to be of God Ioh. 3. The third is Iesuite Becane e Quaest Batav opusc tom 3. p. 140. Yea but you haue another name which you dissemble What 's the reason Your Hollanders will thinke one thing but I thinke another MY OPINION IS YOV DO IT THAT YOV MAY THE MORE SECVRELY LIE AND PLAY THE IMPOSTOR It is not said for nothing in the Gospell He that euill doth hateth the light and in the Epistle to the Thessalonians They that are drunke are drunke in the night And certainly IF YOV WERE A GOOD MAN YOV WOVLD NOT BE ASHAMED OF YOVR NAME to confesse who you are now when you do otherwise how can any man chuse but suspect you When you flie the light WHO WILL NOT TAKE YOV FOR A NIGHT-BIRD But Papists may do that which is not permitted vs. For f Poggh faceâ— the Pope was wont to haue his iester when he told him tales to make him sport to do it standing behind a cloth in a corner for being outfaced And it should seeme our Seminary-priests haue obtained the same fauour that standing out of fight behind the shreene they may be the bolder to vtter that which being bashfull they would be loath to speake bare faced If this be so I am satisfied good reason euery Order enioy his priuiledge 3 In the Title also hee calls vs Ministers g Such is the ordinarie and common ignominie and dishonor to be reputed a MINISTER in the English Church that I suppose very few or no Catholike Priests of that nation would change their HONOVR euen in England with so base and infamous a generation R. B. resolut relig p 54. Of which HONOVR of Popish Priests in the times past one writes Nam homines Ecclesiastics sua culâ—a ita profanarunt sâ— ordinem suum quod iam planè à magnis à paruâ—s in toto mundo habeantur despectui Ioh. Mar. Belg. de schism concil pag. 467. ex Alan Chartier in contempt But we haue the vantage of him for whereas he cannot shew one place in all the new Testament where the Preachers of the Gospell and Pastors of the Church are intitled Priests as he is albeit the name may be vsed well enough in his due sense by those that are the Ministers of Iesus Christ and not the vassals of Antichrist we can shew where they h Act. 13.2 20 24. 1. Cor. 4 1. 2. Cor. 3 6. 5.18 Eph. 3.7 4.12 6.21 Col. 1.7.23.27 4.7 1. Thess 3 2.1 Tim. 4.6 2. Tim 4.5.11 are called Ministers and their worke Ministerie and our contentment is that being called to the worke of this Ministerie we carie a Name that imports no more Whereas Masse-priests and Soulepriests Friars Iesuites and Seminaries not onely are the titles of those that weare Christs liuerie and do seruice to Antichrist but are become the names of the vnnaturallest monsters and wickedst persons that liue in the world as all the Churches and States thereof this day feele by experience and this kingdome can well testifie 4 Vnder the Title he writes this sentence of Scripture Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis The Church is the pillar and firmament of truth 1. Tim. 3. He had read belike in i Rat. 3. Campian that the name of the Church would terrifie the Protestants and
make them pale for feare and therefore he would affixe it though I for my part will thinke he doe it not so much to terrifie vs as to gull his owne with the name of the Church If he had in any good fashion defended the exposition and application he made of it k THE WAY § 15. Reply pag. 223 in his Treatise he might haue vsed it the better and it would haue made vs the more afraid but hauing left it in the lash where I answered it he is not worthy so faire a text should come vnder his title Neuerthelesse there is good vse to be made of it against himselfe For if the Church be the pillar of truth and the Papacie which he striues for in his Reply be the pillar of lies then it will follow the Papacie is not the Church The first proposition is his text The second neither his Reply nor Treatise can put by The conclusion therefore is the truth And so the Text may keep his place to good purpose 5 On the backside of the same page hee hath placed in Latin and English this sentence of Saint Austin de vtil cred c. 8. If thou seeme to thy selfe to be sufficiently tossed to wit in doubts questions or controuersies of faith and wouldest make an end of these labours follow the way of the Catholicke discipline which did proceed from Christ himselfe by the Apostles euen vnto vs and from hence shall be deriued to posteritie I guesse his minde was to allude to the title of my booke which I called THE WAY and because therein I defend the way of the Scripture followed by the vniuersall Church which he likes not therefore he brings S. Austin reuoking vs to the way of Catholicke discipline This man sure hath a strange apprehension * Denique addimus Ecclesiam quae nunc Pontifici Romano obtemperat ture ac merito Catholicae nomen sibi vendicare eademque ratio ne fidem eius Catholicam esse censendam appellandam Suar. de fens si◠Cathol aduers Anglic. sect err l. 1. c. 12. nu 9. to thinke that wheresoeuer the Fathers vse the word Catholicke they vnderstand thereby this New-Roman-Catholicke and when they speake of Catholicke discipline they vnderstand his Church proposition determined by the Pope when they affirme nothing else but the doctrine contained and written in the Scriptures to be Catholicke and the discipline whereby men are directed both in faith and manners So S. Austin expounds himselfe l Cap. 6. in the same place Beleeue me whatsoeuer is in those SCRIPTVRES is loftie and diuine THERE is altogether IN THEM the truth and discipline most accommodate for the renewing and repairing of our mindes and so qualified that there is NO MAN BVT FROM THENCE HE MAY DRAW THAT WHICH IS SVFFICIENT for him if to the drawing he come deuoutly and godly as true religion requires So also Theophilus Alexandrinus m Epist 1. Pas chal pag. 377. cals the medicines taken out of the holy Scriptures for the curing of heresies the ecclesiasticall discipline The WAY to the Church therefore and S. Austins WAY of Catholicke discipline are both one because they both are the way of the Scripture and that sufficient and easie way which the simplest that is may finde though the Pope with his authoritie and traditions intermeddle not and he that will seeke the Catholicke discipline by Saint Austins consent must do it in the SCRIPTVRE which I doubt will not greatly please this Iesuite who hath spent all his time in groping for it about the Popes stoole he being the man when all is done that must determine this discipline and * Cum Pontisex definit Ecclesia per caput suum loquitur Suar. vbi sup c. 2◠nu 7. the mouth whereby their Catholicke Church must vtter and expound it 6 In the next page followes a Table of the contents of his booke and after that a short Preface to the Reader wherein first he commends his booke that I confuted and his Method vsed therein to bring men to resolution and then shewes how he was vrged by our writing against it to this Reply excusing himselfe for the plainesse of his stile and concluding with a grieuous complaint of our vnsincere dealing which he proceeds to shew in that which followes The Commendation that he giues his Method may not be denied for we allow Apes to hugge their yong ones and heretickes to conceit their owne deuices and I must confesse it is good round Method indeed for the purpose and profitable for them to be followed For if you will see it this it is Good Eue for your soules health I were readie to shed my best bloud and therefore haue ventured my life as you see vpon the entertainment you know of such as I find in the hiding roomes to bring you home to the Catholicke Church your Method is this Close vp your eies and examine nothing but obstinately renouncing the Protestants and stopping your eares against the Scriptures in all things beleeue vs who on my owne word are the Church of God and submitting your selfe to the direction of your ghostly father without more adoe be resolute and you shall easily be perswaded of our Roman faith This is a good sure Method to resolution and makes many resolute indeed and the Iesuite hauing found by experience how kindly it works with good natures had reason to commend it though in any indifferent iudgement it be a poore one as will appeare The rest of his Preface is trash come we to that which is materiall 7 After the Preface to shew my vnsincere dealing whereof he complaines he makes a title of examples of grosse vntruths gathered out of M Woottons and M. Whites bookes by which the discreete reader may see how little sinceritie or care of truth they haue had and consequently how little credit is to be giuen to their writings and hauing dispatched M. Wootton he comes to me with these words Now to come to M. White whose booke is said to do much more harme among the simple then M. Woottons doth I hope I shall lay open such foule want of sinceritie and care of truth in him as it will plainly appeare that those which shall hereafter take harme by giuing credence to his words or writings shall shew themseluis to be very simple indeed So that in all probabilie he should haue some great matter to shew that makes so large an offer and yet euery one of these examples will proue in the scanning so many testimonies of his owne weaknesse and immodesty when hauing had the book foure yeares in his hands and so many of his consorts to ioyne with him in replying all which time their rage against it and desire to discredit it and vowes to confute it appeared well enough yet now at the last can obiect no other examples of vntruth then these And that we may know he comes furnished he cals for a railing roome to brawle in
* Jtaque ne in posteruÌ„ quidem Lipsi rosas ogita sesamam aut papauer sed spinas si as aâ—â—ynthium acetuÌ„ Lips const 1.10 I must craue the readers patience if contrarie to my vsuall course he finde me in this passage something sharpe because M. Whites outrages are such as require more then an ordinarie sharp reprehension Let him therefore take the Gun roome or if he will the n Lucian Iupit Tragoe 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cart where in old time they vsed to raile freeliest I am indifferent what he say hauing propounded to my selfe to answer not his scurrilitie but his Diuinitie though he keepe so good promise in this he threatens and his insolencies both in railing and bragging be such that it were able to dissolue into some passion or other the best patience that an aduersary can haue And had he as well performed the grosse vntruths he vndertakes to shew as he hath his sharpnesse which he promises he might haue gone for a good pay-master but to raile and run away is womens fight If he would haue men to thinke my outrages are such as he sayes he should haue expressed some of them and quoted the pages of my booke where the reader might see them which when he doth not nor cannot do the reader may suspect he sayes this to make way for his owne railing For the Booke it selfe will testifie what I haue done better then any thing I can say here wherein there are I denie not many sharp and bitter speeches against the abuses of the Church of Rome but they are not mine but the Papists whom being vrged thereunto I alledge it is one of the things that hath alwaies made me haue a base opinion of our aduersaries that these foule tales of their Church being blabbed out by themselues yet they would neuer giue vs leaue to report them againe or mention them Other outrage or railing then this I haue vsed none nor neuer did in all my conflicts with theÌ„ neither is it my maner to practise or defend it but by this my last will testament I bequeath it in legacie to himselfe and o Namely to D. Harding StapletoÌ„ Sanders Parsons Euans Surius Feuardentius Gret ferus I'acenius his Cleargie and other his consorts whose spirit I haue reasonably tasted these many yeares together p Iude v 9. The Angell disputing with the Diuell about the bodie of Moses durst not blame him with reuiling speeches but bad the Lord rebuke him According to which example I wish there were lesse bitternesse and more going to the argument in their writings For mine owne part q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Isid Pelus pag. 453. I thinke it not so meete to speake euery thing that my aduersarie deserues to heare as to let nothing passe me that becomes not my selfe CHAP. II. 1. The Papists trampling of the Scriptures and preferring their Church 2. The Church of Rome touched in her honestie and reported to be a whore The conditions of a whore Pag. 22. A. D. First in his epistle Dedicatorie in which he speaketh not to simple men but to his most reuerend Fathers in God Toby the Archbishop of Yorke his Grace Primate and Metropolitan of England and to George Lord Bishop of Chester his very good Lords he affirmeth to our disgrace that all our speech is of the Church no mention of the Scriptures or God our Father but of our Mother the Church the which he confirmeth with a scurrilous comparison Much like saith he as they write of certaine Ethiopians that by reason they vse no mariage but promiscuously companie together it commeth that the children follow the mother the fathers name is in no request but the mother goeth away with all the reputation Thus he Now how lowd and lewd an vntruth this is I referre to the iudgement of any man almost neuer so simple supposing he haue had any ordinarie conuersation with Catholickes or be in a meane measure acquainted with their words and writings For what man is so simple who cannot discerne this to be euidently contrarie to our ordinarie practise and common speech and contrarie to our profession and publicke doctrine of faith And is it then possible that a Minister whose name is White should haue a face so blacke as without blushing so soberly to asseuere such a notorious vntruth especially in the sight or hearing of those his good Lords and reuerend Fathers in God Surely it is maruell that those his reuerend Fathers or some for them did not examine and marke this and other his grosse vntruths or marking them that they would for their credits sake suffer them to passe especially twice to the print And much more maruell it is that in stead of reproouing the man for such his shamefull vntruths which had beene the dutie of reuerend Fathers in God they would permit him to vse their names in the forefront or beginning of his booke by which men may suppose that they by their authoritie doe canonize or at least giue countenance to so many his grosse errors and vntruths as are found in this his booke 1 THe first example of my outrages and insinceritie is in those words of the epistle Dedicatorie All their speech is of the Church no mention of the Scriptures or God our Father but of our mother the Church c. Wherein if there be any trespasse yet he shewes it but meanly by saying it is a lewd and lowd vntruth and referring the matter to such as are acquainted with Catholickes and their writings For this and the railing that followes and his emptie maruelling at the BB. that would permit me to say so purges not Papists from the imputations but charges them deeper For S. Chrysostome sayes that a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hom 22. Rom. when a mans aduersarie fals to scolding it is a signe he is guiltie And if the truth must be tried by the words and writings of his Catholickes then the matter will go well enough on M. Whites side For how should the coÌ„moÌ„ people of whoÌ„ I properly spake talk of the Scripture which they know not b THE WAY § 2. n. 3. See Staplet relect pag. 535. which they are forbidden to reade c THE WAY § 1. n. 3. which they must beleeue containes the least part of that which belongs to their faith The Rhemists d Annot. Luc. 12 11. teach lay Catholickes when any of them are called before the commission to answer that he is a Catholicke man and that he will liue and die in that faith which the Catholicke Church teaches and this Church can giue them a reason of all the things which they demand of him and he that answers thus they say saith enough and defends himselfe sufficiently Here we see all their speech is of the Church no mention of the Scriptures And he that dwels among them or hath occasion to discourse with them of religion shall finde the truth
among them that will dispute if euer it were a time to leaue wording and fall to realitie this it is wherein our aduersaries by the glorious and vnlimited reports of their owne sinceritie haue raised vp the opinions of so many to the expectation of matter at their hands and indeed the distraction of so many peoples minds about religion require and euen cry for materiall and sound dealing and is this now the performance thereof with reuiling words to pester their bookes and to the matter to reply Hoc nihil inuariabile Grosse vntruths blockishly ignorant against his owne knowledge and conscience carelesly inconsiderate I might here make an end c. Was this all the Iesuite could say against that which M. White confirmed by plain authorities could he confute his writing no otherwise then thus Then M. White tels him again that as he hath written nothing but what all learned men know to be true and many haue obiected against the Church of Rome long ago to farre better purpose then himselfe is able to do so his knowledge and conscience and the conscience of thousands with him are the firmlier assured of these things in that his aduersary is able to say so little against them A.D. Yet because in the 12. Pag 29. § of his Preface he offereth as he saith certaine externall markes and sensible tokens whereby the falshood of the Romane Church may be discouered and the most resolute Papist that liueth moued to misdoubt of his owne religion I haue thought it not amisse to examine these his markes and tokens as supposing that if I finde him to faile of truth and sinceritie in these men will not expect to finde it in the rest of his booke in regard he intending to moue by these his marke and tokens euen as he saith the most resolute Papist that liueth to misdoubt of his religion it is like he would vse all his diligence and care that such a carelesse man in so bad a cause could not onely to bring sensible but also sound and substantiall matter and that very truly and sincerely set downe as knowing that such resolute Papists will not be easily moued to misdoubt of their so ancient and well grounded religion by any sleight markes or tokens though neuer so seeming sensible especially if they may sensibly perceiue them to be vnsincerely and vntruly propounded and vrged against them That therefore the Reader may better guesse what truth and sinceritie he may expect in the rest of M. White his booke I haue thought fit briefly to view and runne through these his markes and tokens 9 What Reader now but would imagine the Iesuite to be with child of some substantiall matter and yet it will proue but a tympanie of mind and therefore I desire the Reader diligently to obserue what passes betweene vs. For I say againe that if a man neuer looke further those very things which I mentioned as externall markes and sensible tokens of the Roman Churches iniquitie are sufficient of themselues to moue the hotest and zealousest Papist aliue yet once again to lay his hand vpō his heart and better to look into his religion And what account soeuer the Iesuits resolute Papists that will not so easily be moued make of that I said yet still I offer it to their a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Isid Pelusio ep 191. lib. 3. more retired and vnpreiudicate considerations especially now when this Iesuite hath studied out what he can to lay in against it and finding the demonstrations whereby though very briefly yet really I shewed euery Marke to be too hot for his mouth meddles not with them but passes them ouer and sayes not a word to them but onely repeates the motiue and making a face at it so lets it go not mentioning the arguments whereby I declare it b Chrysost This is the power of truth and the grace of innocencie when her enemie is her iudge and the diuell her accuser and wrath and furie and calumnie and hatred are impaneled against her yet she is quit and iustified CHAP. IX 1. The Apocrypha not accounted Canonicall Scripture 2. Papists professing to expound against the Fathers 3. The new English translation of the Bible 4. Traditions equalled with the holy Scripture 6. About the erring of Councels 7. And the sufficiencie of the Scriptures Pag. 29. A. D. The first marke is saith he their enmitie with the holy Scripture this is an euident vntruth proceeding either out of ignorance or out of enmitie and malice against vs. For who knoweth not that we be so farre from hauing enmitie with sacred Scriptures as we reuerence and respect them farre more then Protestants doe partly in that we accept all the bookes of them which the ancient Church hath deliuered to vs as sacred and canonicall whereas Protestants by their priuate spirit thrust some of them as it were by the head and shoulders out of the Canon and partly also for that we hold such reuerent regard to the diuine truth contained in them as that we do not presume either to translate or interprete them according to our priuate phansie or iudgement but conformably according to the approoued spirit and iudgement of the vniuersall Catholicke Church whereas the Protestants haue so little regard that they permit euery man to rush without reuerence into the sacred text to translate it if he haue skill in the learned tongues or to interprete it by his priuate spirit although he haue no skill in any besides the vulgar tongue 1 THe enmitie and rebellion of the Romane Church against the Scriptures is so apparent that the Iesuite thought it his best policie not to meddle with that whereby I shewed it more fully in the 22 Digr but to wrangle at that I here onely touched briefly by the way bearing the Reader in hand that I haue in this place vsed all the diligence and care I could and brought the soundest and substantiallest matter that I had when I onely in few words pointed at it First he sayes they be so farre from hauing enmitie with the Scriptures that they reuerence them more then we do His reasons to perswade this are two First they accept all the bookes of the Scriptures which the ancient Church hath deliuered vs for Canonicall whereas Protestants by their priuate spirit thrust some of them he meanes the Apocrypha out of the Canon by the head and shoulders I answer that we denie no part of the Canon which the ancient Church receiued and this bringing in of the Apocryphal books Wisd Ecclesiast Toby Iudith Maccab. and the rest into the Canon conuinces the Church of Rome of that contempt of the Scriptures which I mentioned when it exalts and aduances to the honour of diuine inspired Scripture that which is not so nor was esteemed so in the ancient Church For Rebels to place another in the same throne with the King and to giue him equall power and honour with him and to make
his lawes equall to the Kings is as much as if they thrust the King out of the throne For a wife to yeeld those duties to a neighbour that are proper to her husband makes her an adulteresse though otherwise she denie him nothing And it is vntrue that the Iesuite sayes the Apocrypha was esteemed canonicall Scripture in the ancient Church for a Legit quidem Ecclesia sed eos inter canonicas Scripturas non recipit c. Iero praef in Prou. Non sunt in Canone Praef. in 1. Reg. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Conc. Laodic e vlt. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Athan. synops p. 63. Athanasius reckoned the bookes of Scripture according to the mind of the Nicen Councell says Bâ—ron an 63. n. 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Melito apud Euseb hist pag. 43. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Origen apud Euseb pag 65. Haec sunt quae Patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alij libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici à maioribus appellati sunt quae omnia legi quidem in Ecclesiis voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fiâ—ei confirmandam Cypr. exp symb n. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Epiph. pag. 534. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cyril Ierosol pag. 30. Catech. Hic verissimus diuinitus datarum est Scripturarum Canon Amphiloch Icon. Iamb pag. 730. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Naz. Carm. p. 36. In viginti duo libros Lex Testamenti veteru deputetur Hilar. in Psal pag 615. Sunt autem libri veteris Testamenti 24. Victorin apocal pag. 718. Hij sunt libri qui in Ecclesia pro Canonicis habentur Veteris Scripturae libri sunt viginti duo Leont de sect pag. 1848. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Damasc orth fid l. 4. c. 18. pag. 348. all Antiquitie shewes the contrary that it was vsed but not to ground faith vpon and therefore the Papists putting it into the Canon abuse the Scripture and antiquitie and Protestants iudging it not to be Scripture follow not their priuate spirit but the publicke spirit of the ancient Church in the purest times And b Liber Judith Tobia Macchabaeorum Ecclesiasticus atque liber Sapientiae non sunt recipiendi ad confirmandum aliquid in fide Occham dial p. 212. Non sunt in Canone sanctorum librorum reputata siue confirmata nec inter libros Legis Prophetarum nic inter Hagiographos computantur sicut liber Sapientiae liber Judith liber Tobiae liber Maccabaor Turrecr c. Sancta Rom. d. 15. n. 19. d. 16. c. Apostolor n. 5. The Apocrypha denied to be Canonicall Scripture by Antonin sum mor. part 3. tit 18. c. 6. §. 2. Lyra Praef. in Tob. Hugo Cardin. praef in Ios Caietan in Hest c. vlt. Picus Mirandul de fid ordin cred theor 5. And many others the learnedst also of our aduersaries are of the same iudgement the Church of Rome neuer wanting those in it that in all ages gaue testimonie to the truth that it is not Canonicall Scripture whereby the Reader may see the Iesuites rashnesse and ignorance when he sayes the Protestants of their priuate spirit thrust the Apocrypha by the head and shoulders out of the Canon For the other bookes as Ierome saith the Church doth reade for example of life and instruction of manners but yet it doth not apply them to establish any doctrine say * Art 6. idem R. Iacob praef monitor pag. 39. the articles of our Church 2 His second reason to proue that the Church of Rome reuerences the Scripture more then we do is because they presume not to translate them or interprete them according to their owne priuate iudgement but conformably according to the spirit of the vniuersall Church whereas Protestants permit euery man to rush into the Text to translate or interprete it Both the parts of this reason are false First the Papists out of the reuerend regard to the diuine truth contained in theÌ„ presume not either to translate or interprete the Scripture according to their priuate iudgement but according to the iudgement of the vniuersall Church Here are three vntruths First that in their expositions and interpretations they follow the vniuersall Church for therein they follow onely the Popes will and practise of the present Romane Church which are not the vniuersall Church this is shewed in THE WAY Digr 16. And c Si quando occurrerit aliquis sensus textui consoâ—us quamuis à torrente doctorum alienus loctor aequum se prebeat censorem nullusque detestetur illum ex hoc quod dissonat à priscis Doctoribus Non enim alligauit Deus expositionem Scripturae priscorum Doctorum sensibus alioquin spes nobis tolleretur exponendi ScripturaruÌ„ Caietan pâ—â—oem in Gen defended and followed herein by Andrad pro concil l. 2. Communu opinio Doctorum non est attendenda quando altera contraria opinio fauet potestati clauium aut iurisdictioni Ecclesiae aut pâ—ae causae D. Marta de iurisd part 4 pag. 273. their learned men professe to follow new expositions that the ancient Fathers neuer vsed Secondly that in their Translations they follow the vniuersall Church For the vulgar Latin is not the Translation of the vniuersall Church neither was any man bound to it till the Councell of Trent and their translations into the mother tongues when they are inforced thereunto following the vulgar follow the vniuersall Church no more then it doth The corruption of that Translation I haue shewed in THE WAY Digr 7. Thirdly that they translate not the Scripture but according to the iudgement of the vniuersall Church as if they vsed translations into the mother tongue which is vntrue thus far that they vse them not but being inforced thereto by some extremitie but vtterly forbid them and crie out against them as I haue shewed elsewhere 3 The second part of his second reason is likewise false that Protestants permit euery man to rush without reuerence into the sacred Text to translate it if he haue skill in the learned tongues or to interprete it by his priuate spirit although he haue no skill in any besides the vulgar tongue for we mislike priuate spirits and expositions more then our aduersaries do who tie all to the Popes sole will when we allow no exposition afore it be squared to the rule of faith and the sence of the true Church And touching translating there is as much regard with vs as was when the Church was purest no mans priuate translation is canonized but that which is publickly vsed is done by publicke authoritie an example whereof we had these last yeares in the new Translation * The comparison will scarce please those that absurdly hold the Septuagint and the author of the Latin vulgar were Prophets infallibly guided in translating by Gods Spirit as the Apostles and Prophets them selues were
The second thing he replies is that the reason why they hold something else beside Scripture to be the rule are two First because we learne so out of the Scripture which he sayes he hath shewed both in his Treatise and in this Reply This is false as appeares in my Answer to his Treatise and shall yet further be manifest in this Defence against his Reply Secondly because we finde it necessarie to admit some other infallible rule and meanes to assure vs both what bookes be Scripture and what interpretation is to be followed which meanes is the authoritie of the Church Fathers Councels and Pope This reason is answered b §. 9. n. 3. and there Digâ— 2â— in THE WAY and hereafter in this DEFENCE and albeit the true Church of Christ which is not the Pope and his Consistorie be a subordinate meanes out of the Scripture it selfe to teach and leade vs forward to the knowledge of the Scripture and the interpretation as a Iudge shewes and expounds the law yet this proues not the Scripture not to be the rule but shewes that God hath commanded the ministerie of his Church to teach and guide vs by that rule For let any Papist say is the Law it selfe but one part of the rule of our obedience to the King and the Iudge the other so that the Law and the Iudge both together make but one rule because we finde it necessarie to admit the Iudge as a meanes infallibly to assure vs both which is the Law and what interpretation thereof is to be followed Not the Law in respect of vs hath all his authoritie in it selfe from the King and is the complete rule of euery mans obedience for more is no man bound to then the Law requires and yet magistrates are vsed to expound and publish it So is it with the Scriptures and therefore the Protestants haue meanes sufficient to secure their faith 6 But where he sayes in the margent that this infallible meanes that must so necessarily be admitted to assure vs what bookes be Scripture and what interpretation is to be followed is the authoritie of the Church Fathers Councels Pope I must admonish him c See THE WAY digr 16. n. 4. and below chap. 35. n. 1. that the current doctrine of Rome is that neither Church Fathers nor Councels exercise this authoritie infallibly but onely the Pope and that his sole definitiue sentence is the last and highest authoritie to secure vs and therefore the Iesuite is bound out and all Papists with him for euer from pretending any other infallible meanes beside the Pope whose iudgement alone being their Load-starre they doe but flatter themselues and mocke vs to our faces when they talke of Church and Councels But because I said the Church Fathers Councels and Pope by themselues were yeelded to be subiect to error and so consequently could not secure them therefore he obiects that a few pages before I acknowledged that it is a principle of their owne that a generall Councell cannot erre If by their owne principles a Councell cannot erre which I confesse there then it is false that I say here the Church the Fathers a Councell the Pope are yeelded by themselues to be subiect to error I answer that in the Councell of d Epist synodal de author cuiuslibet concil general sup Papam Basill ann 1432. it was adiudged that a generall Councell cannot erre whether the Pope confirme it or no. Since which time e Alliac Gers Maior Panorm Almain Ludov. Rom. quos refert Azor. to 2. pa. 565. 575. Viri quidam doctissimi sentiunt ConciliuÌ„ generale legitimè congregatum etiam absente Papa solidâ—m certamque habere authoritatem priusquam à summo Pontifice confirmetur Can. loc pag. 257. very many of the best learned in the Papacie haue followed that opinion therupon I said it was a principle of their owne that a generall Councel cannot erre speaking nothing of the Church Fathers or Pope and yet forsomuch as f Iacobat de conc p. 347. Bellar. de conc c. 11. Turrecr sum l. 3 c. 58. concl 2. CaietaÌ„ apol par 2. c 21. Azor. par 2. l. 5. c. 12. fauer Can pag. 259 loc the Iesuits others hold the contrary that a Councell not authorized by the Pope may erre forsomuch as Councels receiue all their strength from the Pope and g Occham dial par 1. l. 5. c. 25. 26. fauet Waldenf doct princip l. 2. c. 19. some that they may erre though the Pope do confirm them h Hadr. 4. de sacram Euchar pag. 26. others that the Pope may erre euen in his authoratiue conclusions therefore I obiected here that themselues confesse all these may erre This is neither carelesnesse nor yet saying and vnsaying in me but in them that haue no principle but it is contradicted among themselues for what I said a few pages before I spake according to the opinion of some and what I say here according to the contrary opinion of othersome Let the Iesuite shew me an vnforme opinion touching this matter in his Church and he shall deliuer me hereafter from such quarrels and exceptions as this is In the meane time when there is no certaintie or agreement in his church touching that they hold against vs but some say this and some that he must giue vs leaue to charge it with both opinions or with neither vntill they are agreed vpon a certainty Pag. 30. A. D. On the contrarie side Protestants who will admit no rule but onely Scripture doe not this for pure friendship and good will to the Scripture but for enmitie or not very good will to the Church whose authoritie while they do not admit to be infallible they haue left themselues vtterly void of all meanes sufficient to secure their faith by and to finde out the diuine infallible truth contained in the Scripture as in the Treatise and Reply is largely shewed 7 The Protestants I grant and heare solemnly affirme admit no rule whereby to trie what is matter of faith and what is not but onely Scripture the Church hath her authority if it be the true Church and lawfull Councels godly Bishops whereof the Pope is none are the ordinance of God to propound this faith vnto vs but the whole rule of the Churches iudgment is onely Scripture which if the student wil I wil say ouer again in capitall letters ONELY SCRIPTVRE ONELY SCRIPTVRE and NOTHING but Scripture for the exposition and confirmation whereof I refer him to THE WAY which he lost when he made his Reply Digr 3. And this we doe for pure friendship and good will to the Scriptures and Church both lest vngratefully against the Scriptures perniciously against the Church by relying vpon men we should leaue our selues voide of sufficient meanes to secure our faith by For a Cyril Ierosol catech pag. 15. Graec. saith the ancient Church the securitie of our faith
ours are prohibited in popish countreys that if any ignorant or malicious Minister would falsely report what the Church of Rome holds yet they may heare the aduersaries tell their owne tales hauing partly through their policie partly through the conniuencie of the Superiour that libertie to publish their writings that our selues haue not much more Next the Ministers of England both in their preaching writing and conference report the doctrine of Papists as truly as it is deliuered in their owne bookes and obserued out of their conuersation but many of them are so foule and vile that they may not endure the reporting and therefore when we mention them they denie them and are ashamed of them as many are of their bastards an euident example whereof the Iesuite giues in this place for the points here mentioned are truly related and are neither shamelesse nor slanderous not yet vntruths but the sincere and faithfull report of that execrable doctrine that Papists and none but Papists haue taught and practised and because the Iesuite is somewhat peremptorie in denying this I must put him in minde that I shewed in THE WAY euery one of these points out of their bookes and for the clearer discharge of my selfe and all others that obiect these things to them I will yet againe shew them one by one 6 First they hold the Popes Lordship ouer the Scripture Cardinall Cusanus b Ep. 2. writes The Scripture is fitted to the time and variably vnderstood so that at one time it is expounded according to the fashion of the Church and when that fashion is changed the sence of the Scripture is also changed c Ep. 3. Againe When the Church changeth her iudgement God also changeth his And d Ep. 7. no maruell seeing the letter of the Scripture is not of the essence of the Church if the practise of the Church at one time interprete the Scripture of this fashion and another time on that The Councell of Trent hath anathematized him that shall denie this his Lordship a Sess 24. can 3 If anie man say that onely those degrees of consanguinitie and affinitie which are expressed in Leuiticus can hinder mariage to be contracted and dissolue that which is contracted and that his Lordship the Church cannot dispense in many of them or ordaine more degrees to hinder and dissolue let him be anathema D. Stapleton b Princip fid pag. 351. Relect pag. 514. affirmes that the Church his Lordship may adde other bookes to the Canon of the Scripture which yet belong not thereunto Cardinall Hosius c De autor sac Script lib. 3. pag. 169. defendeth that the Scriptures were of no more authoritie then Aesops Fables but that the Church and Popes approoued it Augustinus Anconitanus d Qu. 60. art ◠sayes that his Lordshippe may dispence in the Law of Moses Delgado e De auth scrip pag. 47 48. writes that the assertions of the Pope in matters of Faith reach as farre as the teaching of the Apostles or the holy Scripture and he sayes There are who allow them to appertaine to the diuine Scripture f Trac de iurisd pag. 64. part 1. Idem Capistrā de auth Papae concil p. 95. D. Marta sayes The Pope in his administration is greater then Paul and may dispense against him in things not concerning the articles of faith Secondly they hold his Lordship ouer the Fathers D. Marta sayes g De iurisdict par 4. pag. 273. The common opinion of the Doctors is not to be regarded when another contrarie opinion fauours the power of the keyes or a pious cause Thirdly touching Councels h Azor. instit tom 2. pag. 574. Bellar. de conc l. 2. c. 13. 17. Antonin sum mor. par 2. tit 3. c. 11. §. 10. Turrecr sum de eccl l. 3 c. 63. concl 1. l. 2. c. 104. Caiet tract de autho Pap. concil c. 6. 7. 10. 11. apol eius tract par 2. c. 7. 8. 9. 10. Capist p. 104. b. Allan de potest dup n. 74. the Iesuites hold that the Popes iudgement is to be preferred before a whole Councell Dominicus Iacobatius a Cardinall i Tract de concil l. 6. art 2. pag 337. B. Romae per Ant. Blad an 1538. in fol. sayes that in causes of faith if the Pope haue the iudgement of his Cardinals concurring with him then without doubt albeit the doubt arising were most difficult yet the Popes opinion were to be preferred before a generall Councell And that no man thinke the Cardinals haue power to ouer-rule or sway him so that he should not Lord it ouer them also Palaeotus himselfe a Cardinall and practised in the Consistorie many yeares k De consist part 5. q. 4. pag. 295. iude tels vs that when the Pope hath once determined a thing and is come to the end of his consultations the Cardinals must be so farre from dissenting that as obedient sonnes they must giue example to others of obedience yea subscribe to his Bull though it be against their conscience For the Popes authoritie depends not on the counsell giuen by Cardinals but rests on his owne will who of diuers opinions propounded to him may choose that which serueth rightest to himselfe Fourthly touching Scriptures Fathers Councels Church and all the world together Suarez the Iesuite l Tō 1. disp 44. sect 1. p. 677. B. sayes I grant therefore the Popes determination is the truth and were it contrarie to the sayings of all the Saints yet were it to be preferrrd afore them Nay if an Angell from heauen were opposed against him the Popes determination were to be preferred Fiftly they maintaine him to be aboue the Church as appeares by that hath bene said of his eminencie aboue and against Councels Palaeotus m De consist par 1. q. 2. p. 61. sayes that as a vniuersall agent he contains vnder his authoritie all Ecclesiasticall powers as particular agents and without exception he alone may forgive all mens sinnes and exercise iurisdidiction over all Sixtly he Lords it over Kings Iacobatius n Tract de Concil in fin vlt. c pag. 778. sayes The Emperor holds his Empire of the Church of Rome and may be called the Popes Vicar or Officiall Capistranus o De Authors Pap. concil pag 94. that to him as to Christ let euery knee be bowed and Emperors the greatest Princes submit their heads Bozius p De temporal Monarch pag. 52. hath written a booke to defend that the supreme temporall iurisdiction belongs to the Pope so that he is vniuersall Monarch of all the world D. Marta q Part. 1. pag. 45. de iurisdict sayes The Pope hath the same power that Christ had to rule ouer all nations and kingdomes Seuenthly that to Pay no debts to such as they count heretickes is the doctrine of our aduersaries r The way pag. 317. I shewed in the expresse words of
for him The l Heb. 11.36 Scripture reports how many of the children of God were tried by mocking and scourging by bonds and prisonment they were stoned hewen apeeces tempted they wandered vp and downe destitute and afflicted All which the Apostle saies they did by faith and confidence of the Promises and yet their assurance was no other nor otherwise begotten then the ordinary assurance of all Gods children which is concluded by ioyning the light of their conscience kindled by the holy Ghost to the immediate light of the conditions reuealed in the Scriptures 5 That which our Aduersaries assigne to be the cause why a man cannot be sure of his saluation because no man is sure of his Perseuerance is easily answered by affirming likewise that the grace of perseuerance with other gifts is giuen all the elect in their iustification For S. Paule m Rom. 8.38 sayes he was certaine of it and what he in that place auouches of himselfe belongs to others as well as himselfe by the confession of n Staplet de iustif l. 9. c. 13. Tolet. in Rom. 8. v. vlt. our strongest aduersaries and he auouches not onely that Gods loue to him but more properly that his loue to God shall neuer faile o Perer. in Ro. 5. d 12. n. 59. The Iesuit also confesses it to be the doctrine of p De Bono perseuerant Saint Austine that grace is giuen by Christ whereby not onely man may perseuere but â—â—lso that he shall perseuere q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chrysost hom 9. in Rom. The fauorits of Princes are aduanced to honour and riches but their preseuerance therein is vncertaine But it is not so with the grace of God bestowed in Iustification and therefore we may beleeue as well our Perseuerance as our Grace And if the iustified be certaine of the grace of Iustification that he hath then may he be certaine and well assured of his Perseuerance because it is a grace purchased vs by Christ and included in that Peace which the iustified by faith haue with God through him or else let him shew that can where any firme and setled peace of minde is where there is vncertainty and doubtfulnesse touching Perseuerance r Concil Trid. sess 6. can 22. Vega pro Concil l. 12. cap. 23. Barth Mediâ— 12. qu. 109. art 10. ad 3. Greg. de Valent. tom 2. pag. 849. c. And that it is in the power of a iustified man with Gods helpe to perseuere in grace to the end is defined by the Trent Councell and holden to be the doctrine of all Catholikes which power a 1. Pet. 5.1 Saint Peter also testifies to be reduced into act by the almightie power of God keeping him * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as with a garrison through faith to saluation according to that of b Ier. 32.40 the Prophet I will put my feare into their hearts that they shall not depart from me Which ouerthrowes all them that make the vncertaintie of Perseuerance a reason against the certainty of saluation CHAP. XVII Concerning points Fundamentall and not Fundamentall The distinction expounded and defended 4. Who shall iudge what is Fundamentall and what not A iest at the election of Pope Leo the tenth A. D. * White p. 100. M. White by the foundation or points fundamentall Pag 66. vnderstandeth all truthes which are necessary for the saluation of all men but this definition is not found in * Act. 4.12 1. Cor. 3.11 Ephes 2.19 the texts of Scripture cited by him in the margent Neither doth it helpe the matter for the question may still be how many and which truthes those be which be necessarie The which questioÌ„ if we leaue to be determined by euerie mans priuate spirit or particular iudgement we shall either haue no point of faith to be accouÌ„ted a point fundamentall in regard the ignorance of some may be such that they may thinke a man may be saued by morall good life although through ignorance he beleeue nothing at all or else we may haue so many fundamentall points of faith as it shall please euerie braine-sicke fellow to hold to be necessary to saluation The which how great confusion it will breed in the Church euery man of meane capacity may easily see And therfore euery man ought to see how necessary it is that the determinatioÌ„ of this necessary question be not left to the priuate spirit or particular iudgement of this or that man but to the iudgement of the Catholike Church accounting with S. Austine all those points which are diligently digested and confirmed by full authority of the same Church to be fundameÌ„tall or to pertaine to the foundation and consequently to be such as must necessarily be beleeued actually or vertually by all men and such as may not doubtfully be disputed of and much lesse rashly and obstinately be denied by any man 1 OVr doctrine is that in the things reuealed in the Scripture and belonging to the obiect of faith there is a difference whereby some are more necessary to be knowne and without error to be vnderstood then othersome For though it be lawfull for no man either to misbeleeue or obstinately not to beleeue any thing that is writteÌ„ yet the simple ignorance or error in many things hinders not saluation nor the substance of Faith but either a priuate man or a whole particular Church thus ignorant or erring either inuincibly or not affectedly and obstinately in such things and yet holding others aright hath sauing faith and is in the state of grace This difference of things arises from 3. respects First of the commandement enioyning and vrging the knowledge of one thing more then the knowledge of another as for example the knowledge of Christ crucified more then the knowledge of his Genealogy for though both be reuealed alike yet not both vnder the like penalty Secondly of the nature and condition of the things when this doth more properly and necessarilie belong to saluation then that for without the knowledge of story of Gedeon I may be saued but without the knowledge of Christs nature and office I cannot Thirdly of their vse WheÌ„ one thing is the foundatioÌ„ and ground that giues light and subsistence to another as the knowledge of Christs office merits brings light to the vnderstanding of the doctrine touching our owne vnworthinesse c. Out of these respects and degrees of things that are beleeued as they stand in order one to another and in vse to vs we call some FVNDAMENTALL and some NOT FVNDAMENTALL not with relation to our faith so much as to our knowledge in as much as it is daÌ„gerous to misdoubt the truth of any thing that is reuealed to us if it were but a 2. Sam. 24.9 1. Chro. 21.5 Whether the number of the children of Israell able to beare armes when Dauid numbred them were 1500000 though no man will say an error or ignorance in this matter were
against sauing faith A Fundamentall point therefore is that which belongs to the substance of faith and is so reuealed and so necessary that there can be no saluation without the knowledge and explicit faith thereof of which nature are the things contained in the articles of our faith a point not Fundamentall is that which directly belongs not to the way of Saluation neither doth error or ignorance therein make void or destoy that which is Fundamentall Forsomuch as such a point is reuealed but for the manifestation of the other and is beleeued but in order to the other as that Abraham had so many children Paul had a cloke The dead pray for the liuing c wherein it may fall out that we may erre or be ignorant and yet the faith not preiudiced 2 I know none of our Aduersaries that deny this distinction but vse and explicate it as well as we though none such as this Iesuite is be growne so peruerse and malepart that they will endure nothing that we say be it neuer so true b 22. q. 2. art 5. DicenduÌ„ quod fidei obiectum per se est id per quod homo beatus efficitur Per accidens auteÌ„ aut secundario se habeâ—t ad obiectum virtutis omnia quae in sacra Scriptura continentur sicut quod AbrahaÌ„ habuit duos filios c. Thomas hauing deuided the obiect of faith into that which is so by it selfe and that which is by accident and secondarily defines the first to be that whereby a man is made blessed and saued the latter that which is reuealed whatsoeuer it be as that Abraham had two sonnes and Dauid was the sonne of Iesse c Dialog 1. part l. 2. c. 2. pag. 6. Occham sets downe three differences of verities to be beleeued Some touching God and Christ whereon principally depends our Saluation as that there is one God and three persons that Christ is God and man that he suffered and died and rose againe c. Some whereon our Saluation depends not so principally which though we beleeue yet do they not * Non directè sed indirecte quod ammodo ad salutem humani generis pertinere noscuntur so directly belong to our Saluation as many things written of Pharaoh c Of the third sort such as are not reuealed but either agree with that which is reuealed or follow manifestly of it And d Vbi sup c. 11. pag. 9. Sunt quidam Moderni dicentes quod multae assertiones sunt quae in rei veritate aduersantur diuinae Scripturae quae tamen ab Ecclesia minimè sunt damnandae nec sint inter haereses numerandae he reports it to haue bene an opinion in the Church in his time that many assertions which in truth of the matter were against the Scripture yet were not condemned by the Church nor counted heresie Espencaeus e Espencae in 2 Tim digress 17. p 119. discoursing of things to be knowne and beleeued sayes The infolded faith of simple people will serue well enough in such things as are the obiect of faith onely BY ACCIDENT and in subtile considerations that arise about the Scripture but in those things which OF THEMSELVES are the obiect of faith whereby men are led to happines they need an vnfolded faith the Colliars faith will do no good f Mag 3. d. 23. ibi Scholast coÌ„muniter Tho. Bonau DuraÌ„d Ricard Dionys Gabr. Occh. q. 8. Bann 22. q. 2. art 8 dub 2. Ouand 4. d. 13. prop. 12. Eymeâ—ic director part 1. q. 2. ad 8. ibi Scoliast Pezant 22 p. 504. a. Syluest sum v. fides nu 6. Simanch cachol instit tit 28. nu 20. Pic. Mirand de fid ord credend theor 12. p. 286. All the Casenists and Schoolemen that haue written touching the nature of heresie and the measure of Catholicke faith agree that there is a certaine measure and quantity of faith without which none can be saued but euery thing reuealed belongs not to this measure and it is enough to beleeue somethings onely by the Colliars faith The which doctrine doth euidently allow our distinction that some things are Fundamentall and some not for no Protestant thinks any point to be so not Fundamentall but that euery man is bound with humility and reuerence to accept it whensoeuer the knowledge and necessity thereof shall be offered him by the Church which is all our aduersaries require in their infolded faith 3 This distinction by g THE WAY pag. 110. me onely touched and that by the way briefly vpon another occasion the Iesuite in this chapter frowardly cauils at and in this place wrangles with the definition that I gaue of points Fundamentall because it is not found in the words of the Scripture that I cited for it in the margent Whereto I answer three things First h Act. 4.12 1. Cor. 3.11 Eph. 2.19 the Scriptures cited shew the knowledge expresse faith of Christs death to be absolutely necessary for all men and two of the places call the matter of this knowledge a foundation Therefore such a point as is absolutely to be knowne and rightly holden of all which euery point reuealed is not may be called a Foundation or Fundamentall point Therfore againe such as by the like confession of our aduersaries some men and all men of some times may erre in or be ignorant of without preiudice of Saluation may be called a point not Fundamentall whence it followes againe that my distinction is grounded well enough vpon the places cited in the margent Secondly I answer that how scornefully soeuer Iesuites thinke of the Scripture yet we Protestants had as lieffe borrow our conclusions distinctions and words wherein we expresse them from it as from the stinking puddles of rotten Schoolemen or new found mint of vpstart Iesuites Thirdly my aduersary himselfe in this very chapter acknowledges the distinction if it bee not applyed to a wrong end to be good For first touching the termes thereof Fundamentall not Fundamentall He finds theÌ„ in S. Austin True it is S. Austin insinuates a distinction of some points Fundamentall and some not Fundamentall Therefore the words are according to Saint Austin and that is well Next in the matters themselues also he sayes Catholicke Diuines make some distinction and hold some to be more necessary to be actually and expresly knowne of all sorts then other therefore he quarrels at that which himselfe confesses to be the truth There be some humours loue to be doing if it be but to keepe their hand in vre * Maiol dies Canic I haue read of one that had so vsed himselfe to pilfring that he would pick his owne purse and steale things out of his owne closet The Iesuite seems to be of that kindred that will quarrell and keepe a wrangling with the doctrine of his owne Church rather then he will cease from his contentious spirit 4 Yet the saddle somewhere pinches him and
it may be the easing of him may do him good He complains this distinction when it is granted will not helpe the matter neither for the question may still be how many and which truthes those be that are necessary the which question if we leaue to be determinated by euery priuate spirit either we shall haue no point to be counted Fundamentall in regard the ignorance of some may be such that they may thinke a man may be saued by morall good life although through ignorance he beleeue nothing at all or else so many as shall please euery brainsicke fellow The determination therefore of this necessary question is to be left to the iudgement of the Catholicke Church that all such points that are confirmed by full authority of the said Church he receiued for such as must necessarily be beleeued by all men Wherein first I blame his discretion for where I mentioned the distinction I had no cause to inquire whose the authority is to iudge what is Fundamentall and what otherwise but assuming it as a thing iudged already I onely mentioned it affirming some points to be Fundamentall and some otherwise How it helps the matter therefore I had nothing to do in that my words were not vsed in this question Next I pittie his wretched state that in no controuersie running betweene vs no not so much as in this a poore distinction can preuaile vnlesse his owne Church and the Pope therein for * Shewed plainely below cap 35. 36. that he meanes by the authority of the Catholicke Church be made the iudge This is a very meane shift when a question depends betweene vs and them to put the Scripture and the consent of the Ancient Church by and require themselues to be iudges Thirdly this question as all other matters belonging to faith must be iudged by no mans priuate spirit but by the Catholicke Church of Christ as the Iudge and by the Scripture onely as the Rule and if they be no competent Iudges who through ignorance may thinke a man may be saued by morall good life though he beleeue nothing at all then away with the Church of Rome and let it be acknowledged as erroneous as any priuate spirit i See cap. 22. n. 1. wherein it is frequently holden that the Gentiles were iustified and might be saued onely by their morall life without beleeueing any thing at all Fourthly supposing the Protest left the determining of this question to priuate spirit which they do not but to the true Church of God following the Scripture yet let my Iesuite answer if the practise of his owne Church be not as bad where the Pope hath power k See cap. 36. n. 3. to make a new article of faith and that to be a Fundamentall point belonging to faith at one time which is not so at another so that all men shall then be bound to beleeue it which before were free to beleeue it l Scot. 4. d. 11. q. 3 §. ad argu Tonstall de verit corp p 46. as it hath already bene practised in the point of transubstantiation and may when the Pope will in the points of m Dico primò veritatem hanc sc virginem esse conceptam sine peccato originali posse definiti ab Ecclesia quando id expedire indicauerit probatur Nam imprimis EcclesiaÌ„ posse controuersiam hanc in alterutram partem decidere apertè supponunt Sixtus 4. Pius 5. Suar. tom 2. disp 3. sect 6. the conception of the B. Virgin and n Paul Benc Eugub l. de effic auxil c. 1. the concourse of Gods grace with mans wil and the o Staplet Princip doctr l. 9. c. 4. Relect. coÌ„tro 5. q. 2. art 4. Canonizing of Hermes or Clement into the sacred Scripture In which case his Holinesse might possible if not be brain-sicke which betides yonger men which Popes commonly are not vnlesse it be sometime when the yong Cardinâ—â— are in an humor to elect a Bennet or Iohn or * When Leo the tenth a yong man was elected in the Conclaue Alphonsus Petrucius a yong Cardinall proclaimed his election at the window Pontificem habemus Leonem decimum ac viuant vigeantque iuniores Pap. Masso in LeoÌ„ 10. he should haue cried by the order Annutiâ— vobis gaudium magnum Papam habemus Marcell sacr cerem pag. 19 Leo yet doâ—e at least by vertue of his age or for his recreation play the vice of a Play as p Alex. ab Alexand. genial dicr l. 3. c. 21. Amasis the King of Egipt would sometime do among his Courtiers and as q Aelian var. hist l. 12. c. 15. Agesilaus ride vpon a sticke among his children to make them sport the which comparisons howsoeuer his creatures will take vnkindly yet all the world knowes his Consistorie hath bene a stage whereon he hath many a time and often plaied these parts ere now as formally as the priuatest spirit or braine-sickest companion aliue can do and so I leaue him CHAP. XVIII 1. Touching the perpetuall virginity of Mary 2. The celebration of Easter 3. The Baptisme of Infants The Iesuits halting 4. And the Scriptures sufficiency A. D. I for breuitie sake will omit to vrge other points Pag. 68. which Protestants beleeue with vs viz the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgine against the errour of Heluidius White pag. 12. the celebration of Easter on the Sunday against those heretikes that denied it the Baptisme of Infants against Anabaptists who will not allow it c. 1 HEre my name is cited in the Margent and the page of my Booke as if I had written or some way insinuated that these 3. points were matters of faith and yet not contained in the Scripture But I writ nothing that sounds that way neither in the place cited nor any where else yet because I will misse no place where he cites me I answer he affirmes 3. things First that we hold the perpetuall virginity of the blessed Virgine the Celebration of Easter vpon the Sunday and the Baptisme of Infants to be a For that is the question expressed by himselfe a litle before pag. 67. of his Repl. points of faith necessary to be beleeued â—â—condly that these 3. are not contained in Scripture Thirdly that we beleeue all this with the Papists Wherein there is neuer a true word For to the first the perpetuall virginity of the Virgine Marie after the birth of our Sauiour as well as before we beleeue as a probable and likely truth but not as a matter of faith the which if my aduersarie mislike I require him to forbeare me and answer Saint Basil with whom we consent b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Basil pa. 233. graec Froben an 1551. That she denyed not the workes of mariage to her husband after the birth of her Sonne though it nothing hinder godly doctrine yet what was done after without medling with it let vs leaue to the
demonstration by some other principle in a higher art more euident to vs. Here are two vntruths For first there is no higher art then themselues Thomas i Vbi supra sayes The sacred Scripture hath no higher science The setting vp of the Pope and his Church aboue it to giue it authoritie as a higher science giues to a lower is a blasphemous practise of Antichrist Bozius k Boz de sign eccl tom 2. pag. 439. writeth that the Scripture is not to be reckoned among such principles as before all things are to be credited but it is proued and confirmed by the Church as by a certaine principle which hath authoritie to reiect and allow Scripture Let the Reader by these words of Bozius a famous Papist conster my aduersaries meaning in this place if he chance to say he meanes not as I charge him Againe it is false that the Church is more euident to vs then the Scripture in that sense that belongs to this question I see indeed the Church that teaches me before I beleeue the Scripture to be diuine supposing I were a Pagan that as yet had not receiued the Scripture but I beleeue the Scripture to be diuine and am conuinced in my conscience that it is the word of God before I can beleeue the Church sayes true For I cannot beleeue it sayes true but vpon the grounds of Scripture which it offers me and therefore consequently the truth of the Scripture is more euident then the truth of the Church In which case it is as when a man stands in the doore with a torch in his hand to giue light to such as need where he holds out the torch indeed yet he puts no light into it nor does any thing but onely hold it before them The Church-authoritie in ministring to vs doth no more to the Scripture then this man doth to his torch I wil yet vse a more familiar conparison whereby the Reader shall see how absurdly my aduersary holds the Church to be more euident then the Scriptures and to giue them authoritie which they haue not of themselues because it propounds and perswades them vnto vs. Seius owes Caius mony vpon a bond that vpon trust and for the better keeping thereof is put into the hands of Titius For the proofe of this debt it is necessary that Titius bring forth the bond but when he hath done I demand whence hath the bond his credit How is it proued to be Seius his true deed rather then a counterfet Not by Titius his authoritie because he brings it forth but by it self in that the hand and seale thereof manifest themselues to be Seius his Titius that keeps it is but a means to bring it forth But what if Seius denie the debt that Caius be enforced to sue him and by law to cast him who giue Caius the right and makes Seius his debtor and who makes the bond of force doth the Iudge before whom the cause is tried The simplest man in the countrey will not say so for the bond both proues it self and giues Caius his right and make Seius a debtor when the Iudge onely giues it execution and declares no more but that which was in the bond before Let the Scripture be compared to this bond and let my aduersary put me to proue that it is the word of God as Caius is put to proue his bond and it wil manifestly appeare that though the Church haue some ministery in propounding it yet that ministery or authoritie call it what you will doth no more then the Iudge in this case doth It is not a principle aboue the Scripture or more euident whereby the truth thereof is proued as the Iudges authoritie proues not the bond 6 Our aduersaries when they haue wrangled what they can are inforced to confesse thus much in that they grant the last and highest resolution of our faith to be into the authoritie of the Scripture And let the Reader diligently obserue how it comes about In euery controuersie and article of faith they say they are moued by the authoritie of the Church they beleeue the Trinitie the Incarnation the Scripture to be Gods true word because God hath so reuealed by the infallible authoritie of the Church But how come they to know this authority to be infallible by what motiue doth the spirit of God induce them to beleeue it l Can loc p 48. Stapl princip doctr pag. 318. Tripl aduer Whica pag. 184 188. Greg. Val. tom 3. pag 31. Rodeâ— Delgad de auth Script pag. 51. Pezant comm in Tho. pag. 479. They confesse expresly it is the reuelation of the Scripture giuing testimonie to the Church which reuelation is beleeued for it selfe and for no other therfore the highest and last reason light authoritie mouing a man to beleeue the things of faith the sence of the Scripture the authority of the Church and al is contained in the Scripture it selfe For thus I reason The reuelation of the Scripture is beleeued for it selfe therefore the Scripture is a principle indemonstrable by any other and euident in it selfe therefore it is not beleeued by Tradition vpon the authoritie of the Church but for it selfe therfore this point that the Scripture is Gods word is contained in the scripture therfore the Scripture is al-sufficieÌ„t wants nothing that is needful to be beleeued 7 Hitherto I haue expounded the maner how the Scriptures are said to be Principles that are to be admitted immediatly without discourse of other arguments and how this their authoritie is not founded vpon nor demonstrated by the authoritie of the Church and how Church-authoritie is onely a condition and ministery to offer them vnto vs. Now I come to answer his argument wherby he would proue them not to be euident to vs the which is but a poore one For S. Paul doth not say Faith is the argument of things not euident as the vulgar Latin cited in the margent translates but of things that are not seene Now things may be euident and appeare manifestly to the vnderstanding though they be not seene when they are euident otherwise by any light or discourse to the vnderstanding The which kind of euidence and that also which is by sence may stand with faith for the declaration whereof note first that a thing is euident m Jn assensis principiorum scientiae humanitus inuentae est coactio propter euidentiam speculationis quia in eu intellectus euidenter conclusionem intuetur speculatur August Anconit q. â—9 arâ— 4. ad 1. when it moues the vnderstanding so sufficiently that it cannot chuse but assent vnto it note secondly that a thing may be euident three wayes first when it is sensible as that which we apprehend by our outward sense secondly when by the light of nature it is manifest by it selfe as two equall numbers put together make an equall Thus the first principles and notions of nature are euident Thirdly when it
sayes A minde well disposed discernes the doctrine of God as the mouth being in taste doth the difference of tastes Saint Austin h Aug. tract 35. in Ioh. In the night of this world the Scriptures as a candle are lighted vp vnto vs that we should not remaine in darknesse i Rob. Parsons in his Directorie sets downe against the Atheist how the certaintie of these Scriptures is layed before vs. 1. By the Antiquitie thereof pag. 63. 2. Their manner of writing Authoritie and Preseruation p. 65. 3. Their sinceritie and the vprightnesse of the writers pag. 67. 4. The Consent of the Writers one with another pag. 72. 5. The Scope whereto they tend pag 73. 6. The Simplicitie Profoundnesse and Maiestie of the writers pag. 76. 7. The Contents pag. 80. 8. The Testimonie giuen to them by heathens pag 100. c. Pars Christ Directorie printed ann 1585. This light and heauenly maiestie by all men with one consent affirmed of the Scriptures proues that they are the word of God If the light k Vbi priùs saith the same Saint Austin be able to shew those things that are not light shall we say it failes in it selfe doth not that open it selfe without which other things are not opened and do you light a candle to see a burning candle Is not the Sunne or a starre seene by his owne light to them that haue eyes And if the ministerie of the Church be required to propose and offer and expound them to vs as it were l Apoc. 1. vlt. a candlesticke * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Areth. ibi to hold vp the candle so that as the Iesuites vse to reply to this argument this light should not shine nor this diuinitie appeare in the Scripture vnlesse the Church proposed them m Possibâ—le est actu crâ—dere omma credendâ— per solam fidem infusam ABSQVE TEâ—TIMâ—Nâ—O Dâ—CTRINA â—T MAGâ—STâ—RIO ECCLESIAE Stapl. princip l 8. c. 3. PER ILLAM SOLAM Sp sancti persuasioneÌ„ quodlibet credendum credi queat TACENTE Pâ—ORSVS VEL NON AVDITA ECCLESIA fide priuata via extraordinaria testimonio interno Relect. in Adm. Whitak §. Iam quum doth this light and maiestie therefore arise from the Church doth the light of the candle arise from the socket that beares it Doth the man that carries a torch before his master giue light to the torch and not the light thereof rather from out of it selfe enlighten both his master and him This light hath immediatly conuerted Atheists enlightened Infidels reclaimed heretickes that neuer so much as receiued or knew this Church-authoritie and tradition Which propertie of the Scripture thus to eleuate it selfe aboue all Church-authoritie inuincibly shewes that they prooue themselues to be the word of God In all this that hath bene said I grant we beleeue the Scripture and the things of faith by the ministerie of the Church but not for the authoritie of the Church Pag. 111. A. D Thirdly they hold that by this Spirit they are made infâ—llibly sure of the diuine authoritie of the Scriptures insomuch that when they heare or reade any booke they can by their spirit discerne clearly and infallibly whether it be diuine Scripture or not holding the Scripture of it selfe to shine like a candle to them and that they discerne it from other writings and the true sense of it from false in matters necessary to saluation as the sense of taste discerneth sweet from sower Vpon this bold presumption of hauing and being taught by the Spirit proceedeth their audacious and impudent neglect of the authoritie of the ancient Fathers generall Councels or whatsoeuer else standeth against that which they imagine to be taught them by the Spirit especially when they haue seeming words of Scriptures to second that which is suggested by this their spirit Pag. 114. A. D. Againe M White saith pag. 126 that the publicke word of God speaketh in the Scripture openly though the children of God onely know and beleeue it 4 He sayes it is our doctrine that we are made infallibly sure of the diuine authoritie of the Scriptures by this spirit insomuch that reading the Scripture we can thereby discerne whether it be Scripture or no c and to shew this he alledges some words of mine M. White saith that the sheep of Christ know his voice To which purpose my other words also are vsed that he alledges three pages after M. White saith that the publicke word of God c. There is little hope of reducing our aduersary to any indifferencie when they will not so much as sincerely report nor ingenuously acknowledge that we hold for if they would there were an end and the world should see we hold the truth Yet I wil make all things plaine and let the Reader iudge for in the ordinary course of attaining to faith we do not in the first place referre men to their owne spirit but binde them to heare the Church and stoope to her ministery which hauing done then we bid them examine themselues and affirme that such as are led by the Spirit of God through the helpe and teaching of the Church going before are by this Spirit made sure of the diuine authoritie of the Scriptures and can discerne thereof as of the light c. This Spirit therfore neither goes before the Church teaching ORDINARILY nor is the priuate spirit of man but the Spirit of God * For Gods Spirit testifies to our spirit all truths that are beleeued giuing that light that infused faith immediatly rests vpon 1. Ioh. 2.20 27. witnessing with our spirit This being premised the Reply sayes we hold that by THIS spirit they are made infallibly sure of the diuine authoritie of the Scriptures insomuch that by THEIR spirit they can discerne c. This is vntrue For the spirit whereby the authoritie of the Scripture is assured vnto vs is neither this spirit nor their spirit nor yet n For in pâ—ocesse of time when the Church began to abound in temporals forgetting in a manner all conscience many rulers therein cloking the Scriptures with sundrie wiles feared not to falsifie the vpright iudgements of God therein We see persons hauing neither conscience nor science gouernâ— the spouse of Christ sayes Fascie rerum antiq an 1414. the vnsauorie spirit of the Pope and his cleargie but the Spirit of God testifying to our spirits that it is his word after the Church hath begun to teach vs. So that it giues not testimonie to euery one immediatly without al ministery of the Church but theÌ„ wheÌ„ the Church propounds and reueales the Scripture to such as know it not the Spirit of God by that ministery descending into their hearts and assuring them and then all the testimonie and authoritie of the Church in this her ministery giues place againe to this greater light of the Spirit of God in the beleeuers heart and is no part of that authoritie whereon
his faith of the Scripture resteth 5 Let our aduersaries therefore leaue this custome of forging and misreporting and let them acknowledge the truth No matter to this point whether Protestants or Papists be the elect that haue this spirit but say directly and shrinke not is there not a Spirit euen the Spirit of God enlightning the conscience whereby euery one that beleeues is assured without which the authoritie and perswasion of the Church can do no good Then if there be such a Spirit why may it not be called the voice of Christ the light that shines in the Scriptures themselues and what defect is there in saying that by this Spirit true Scripture and true doctrine too is discerned o The soule hath it taste it feeling it smelling sayes Gers serm de Bern. tom 2. pag 750. edit Paris 1606. as the taste discernes sweet from sower such as know not the Scripture haue not this Spirit The word of God speakes in the Scripture openly though none but Gods children beleeue it Here I challenge my aduersarie and all his sect let them denie this if they can I would not haue them with gesture to out-stare it but as Christian men ought to do shew some reason if it be false which they cannot do D. Stapleton that laboured in this matter beyond all others yet p Triplicat in admonit confesses the internall perswasion of the Spirit to be so necessarie and so effectuall for the beleeuing of euery obiect of faith that neither without it can any thing of any man be beleeued though the church should beare witnesse a thousand times and by it ALONE any thing that should be may be beleeued THOVGH THE CHVRCH ALTOGETHER BE SILENT OR BE NOT HEARD q Princip l. 8. c. 3. Let our aduersaries know we do no way so extoll the outward voice of the Church that we should teach * There can be no faith absolutely without it sine ea nullam fidei rationem posse absolutè consistere Here we see D. Stapleton grants that by the Spirit of God inwardly perswading we may be and are and without it are not assured of any thing to be beleeued and that such as haue this Spirit doe by IT discerne which is the true Scripture and the true sense thereof and which is not as our taste discernes sweet from sower as our eyes light from darknesse doth euidently follow of his words And to let the Reader see how this ignorant Iesuite censures that he vnderstands not his owne Canus r Loc. l. 2 c. 8. pag. 43. edit Colon. an 1605 sayes that as the taste well affected easily discernes the difference of tastes so the good affection of the minde makes that a man can discerne the doctrine of God from error It is therefore true that the beleeuer in himselfe doth taste and see by it owne maiestie the Scripture to be Gods word when the Church hath testified it a thousand times and this taste and light of the Spirit in the heart is a thing distinct from the Churches authoritie and aboue it though ordinarily this Church-authoritie in ministring leade vs to the attaining it and help to open our eyes that we might see it 6 And the reason why some do not thus discerne the true Scripture or any truth is not because the Scripture is not euident enough of it selfe but because such as discerne it not want their taste and such as see or heare it not want their senses in the same maner that they do which cā neither taste the sweetnesse of hony nor heare the sound of a bell nor see the light of the Sunne because they are senslesse for the Sunne hath light in it selfe and honey sweetnesse in it selfe which are discerned by the sense it selfe but some haue no such sense and therefore Saint Austin ſ Prolo de doctr Christia sayes They which vnderstand not the things I write must not reprehend me because they vnderstand not like as if I should shew them with my finger the Moone or a starre which were not very bright and they had not eye-sight enough to see my finger wherewith I point they ought not therefore to be incensed at me So they who vnderstand ng these precepts that I giue cannot yet perceiue the obscure things which are in the sacred bookes must not blame me but pray that some light may be giuen to their eyes from God aboue For though I can with my finger point at a thing yet I can kindle light in no mans eyes to make them see that I point at And againe t Tract 35. in Ioh. in another place he sayes that as our eyes though whole and open yet need the helpe of outward light to see so our minde which is the eye of the soule vnlesse by the light of truth which illuminates other things but it selfe is not illuminated it be enlightned can come neither to wisedome nor righteousnesse In which words Saint Austin affirmes all this that we say that the Scripture and euery truth therein contained shines as a light and by proportion tastes of it selfe and speakes publickly to all as the Sunne shines openly to all and the reason why men discerne it not is not any defect in themselues which must be supplied by Church-authoritie and tradition but onely the def ct of disposition in themselues whereof the want of Church-ministery may be one cause And a little more to shew my aduersaries presumption in denying this let the words of u Ad Antolych l 1 pag 285. 289 edit Basil Henrico Petr. an 1555. Theophilus Antiochenus that liued two hundred yeares afore Austin be obserued If thou who art a Gentile say to me that am a Christian shew me thy God I will bid thee againe shew me that thou art a man and then I will shew thee my God Let me see the eyes of thy soule and the eares of thy heart open For as with carnall eyes we see the things belonging to this life so * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the eyes and eares of the soule onely it is possible to behold God who is not seene of all but of such onely as can behold him hauing the eyes of their soule opened All haue eyes yet some are so dimme sighted that they see not the Sunne * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and yet the Sunne hath neuerthelesse light albeit the blinde see it not who must accuse themselues for their owne blindnesse In like manner O man are the eyes of thy soule possessed with blindnesse c. This therefore which our aduersaries so scurrilously call bold presumption of hauing and being taught by the Spirit was beleeued in the Church from the beginning and it was neuer called either audacious or impudent till this Romane Church and her creatures most audaciously and impudently renounced the authoritie maiestie and euidence of Gods blessed Spirit to aduance the tyrannie heresie and pride of Antichrist For the intended drift
of all this vehemencie against the authoritie of the Scripture it selfe is but vnder the name of Church-authoritie to make roome for their Antichristian tyrannie and by outfacing vs from that which we sensibly feele wrought in our conscience by the holy Ghost to abandon our selues ouer to the most hereticall and damnable authoritie of whatsoeuer the Pope and his creatures shall thrust vpon vs. 7 But that which my aduersarie infers vpon my speech that hence because we say the children of God and particular men are assured of the Scriptures and sense thereof by the Spirit of God for I said no more nor any way denie the iust authoritie of the true Church proceeds our audacious and impudent neglect of the authoritie of ancient Fathers generall Councels and whatsoeuer stands against vs I can scarce paste ouer with any reasonable patience for the Fathers and Councels in things that they held certainly and determinately with consent a THE WAY §. 44 p. 3. ibi D gr 47. I purposely shewed we allow and follow and in euery question will stand to but when our aduersaries themselues cannot denie that there is not onely the diuine truth but a heauenly light also whereby to see iâ— in the Scriptures themselues that is not put into them by any testimonie of the Church whereby a simple man may be able to discerne an error in any Father or Councell what fault is it in vs by this light to iudge of Fathers and Councels Occham b Dial. pag. 18â— sayes Catholicke men may learne many truths not knowne before by the sacred Scriptures although the Pope and Cardinals haue not formerly attempted to declare them And whereas possible some may say that the simple people are to beleeue nothing but what the Pope and Cardinals deliuer to be beleeued expresly nor ought to search the mysteries of the Scriptures but be content with common things not presuming of their owne vnderstanding to beleeue any thing expresly but what the Pope and Cardinals deliuer BVT HE THAT SHOVLD SAY THVS WERE AN INVENTER OF NEW ERRORS for though the simple people be not ordinarily bound to beleeue expresly any thing but that which by the Cleargie is already declared to be beleeued expresly yet these simple people BY READING THE SCRIPTVRES and THE SHARPNESSE OF THEIR REASON which simple people do not altogether want may finde something EVIDENTLY to follow of the diuine Scriptures which the Pope and Cardinals haue not declared in which case they may and must expresly beleeue it and are not bound to enquire of the Pope and Cardinals because they are bound to preferre the Scripture before them And the reason of this is for THE POPE AND CARDINALS ARE NOT THE RVLE OF OVR FAITH The Diuines of Venice in their late writing against the present Pope lay downe these conclusions c Tract de in terdict prop. 8. The law of God is the rule of the Popes power d Prop. 12. Christian men may not obey the Popes command vnlesse they first examine it and he that inconsiderately obeyes before such examination sinnes e Prop. 13. It excuses not a Christian man though the Pope constantly affirme his commandement to be iust but it behoues him to examine it and to direct himselfe according to the rule giuen aboue Gerson f Part. 2. recom licent pag. 832. sayes The spirit of a iust man now and then giues warning of the truth better then seuen watch-men set in a high place to watch Do not g Quis enim sant capitis diceret sententiam amplectendam solius Papae quae potest errori subesse postponendam sententiam Ecclesiae Anton. de Rosell monarch pag 67. Dico quod postqâ—am Concilium est congregatum Papae authoritas in teruenit authoritas Papae postea confundi tur cum Concilio remanet forma Concilij authoritas Papae congregantis finitur facta congregatione Iacobat de Conc. l. 10. art 6. pag. 614. D. Cum agitur de fide Synodus est maior quà m Papa Zabarell de schism pag. 701. A. The same is directly holden by Almain de author eccles cap. 7. pag. 725. F. Occham compend erro cap. vlt. sub fin And the Diuines of France at this day Lib. de eccl polit Pet. de Alliaco de eccles author part 3 cap. 2. pag. 924. Mariana sayes Multi viri prudentes graues eruditione maxima Pontifices Romanos Ecclesiae vniuersae subiecerunt de Reg. l. 1. cap. 8. pag. 74. Note the speech of Almain Determinatis per summum Pontificem non est necessario credendum quamuis non sit oppositum publicè dogmatisandum nisi manifestum sit ea sacris literis c. Quest in Vesperg pag. 133. the strongest champions the Church of Rome hath limit the Popes authoritie making it subiect to the Church and allowing men to examine it afore they obey it which shewes vnanswerably that in the Scripture it selfe for that also is granted at the last to be the the rule whereby to trie him is a light which may be seene by a priuate person against the Popes commandement and vnlesse they assume an vnlimited authoritie and such as is subiect to no triall to their Church and Pope which the violentest aduersary we haue dare not do they shall though they be wrangled till dooms day be enforced to grant the same authoritie and light in the Scripture that we affirme 8 Againe before my aduersary had charged vs with audacious and impudent neglect of Fathers and Councels he should haue answered the 47 Digression of my booke where I haue related those practises of Papists in contemning reiecting eluding purging abusing both Fathers and Councels that if they had any sparke of grace in them they would be ashamed to charge others with that impudency and audaciousnesse which none are guilty of so much as themselues I will rehearse nothing of that which there I writ but adde something to it whereby the Reader shall iudge who they be that most impudently and audaciously neglect antiquity D. Marta in a booke dedicated to the present Pope h D. Marta de iurisdict part 4. pag. 273. sayes the common opinion of the Doctors is not to be regarded when the other opinion contrary to them fauours the power of the Keyes or the Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction or a pious cause This man speakes plaine that one may vnderstand him the Fathers all of them must crouch to the Keyes and pious cause of the Pope which Keyes and cause when they come to scanning will prooue as partiall as any priuate spirit in the world And touching the interpretation of the Scripture Baron i An. 34. n. 213 sayes the Bishops all of them who succeeded in the roome of the Apostles attained not the sence and vnderstanding of the Scriptures for the Catholicke Church now turned Protestant and priuate doth not alway and in all things follow them How then I am no lesse delighted k
Pined in Iob 19 v. 26. nu 3. sayes a Iesuite when I see and heare some wise man of our age as Fran. Suarez a Iesuite for example and vpon occasion bring him into my Commentaries then when I cast mine eyes vpon many of the ancient Fathers Here antiquity must giue place to a Iesuite and yet if the Protestants do but one halfe of this they are audacious and impudent vpon their bold presumption This is that Erasmus l Annot in Hieron Praef. in Dan. tom 3. p. 28. noted of them long agoe When it is for our purpose the authority of Hierome is woorth any thing when otherwise it is not for our purpose it is worth nothing and afterward they condemne vs because we beleeue them not The examples how they cast off Fathers and Councels and all antiquity are innumerable they do it in euery question that fals out betweene vs whensoeuer they ioyne in the triall with vs and they confesse that they may be refused because they may erre Guido the Carmelite m Guido de Perpin de haeres c. 7. pag. 8. edit à Bad. Ascens an 1528. sayes Albeit the writings of the holy Doctors be to be handled and read and receiued with due reuerence yet is their authority neither so firme nor inuiolable but it may be lawfull to contradict them or doubt of them where they are not prooued and confirmed euidently and expresly by the holy Scripture and where the Church hath not determined their firme and vndoubted soothfastnes Whence it followes that an opinion cannot precisely be conuinced of heresie by the saying of the Doctors for where where is not infallible truth there is no certaine faith since certaine faith leanes vpon infallible truth yea there can be no infallible assent that a man should firmely cleaue to such things for when there is no infallible truth there can be no certaine and vndoubted faith But in the saying of the Doctors there is no infallible certaine or vndoubted truth partly because they sometime doubt themselues in their owne sayings whether they haue erred therein or no partly because their disagreement is a testimony of falsity and what disagreement there is among the Doctors no man doubts that hath read their writings It is not necessary therefore vndoubtingly to beleeue them but it is lawfull to THINKE AGAINST THEM DISALOW THEM AND REIECT THEM without any danger of heresie So he And yet you see how busily my aduersary taxes Protestants for neglecting the Fathers like the crabfish that chid her yong one for creeping backward and yet went backward her selfe it were an honester course and more relishing of piety for our aduersaries to spare our dissenting sometime from the Fathers as they do their owne onely inquire whether we dissent with reason as themselues sometimes do but this were labour and expence a Iesuites pen can afford railing and facing a great deale better cheape CHAP. XXI 2. Which is the Militant Church 3. And the Catholicke 4. The Church of the Elect inuisible 5. A rancid conceite of the Iesuite Pag. 113. A. D. This Church which consisteth of Professors M. White * White pag. â—9 100. calleth the Church Militant that which consisteth onely of the Elect he calleth the Catholicke Church but to keepe the Antithesis he should rather call it the Church Triumphant not Triumphant as we Catholickes take the name for the happiest part of the Church which is now glorious in heauen but as it being a Church inuisible in earth may triumph indeed as hauing no need to feare any persecutions in that none in time of persecutions can finde theÌ„ out nor can know them nor consequently can persecute or hurt theÌ„ for being members of Christs true Church But as in this respect it may be called the Church Triumphant so on the other side it may be called the Church Lamentant as hauing so iust cause to lament in that the members of it being vnknowne not onely to the world but to one another can haue no societie one with another requisite to the nature of a true Church nor can performe those offices which should be done in and onely in the true Church nor can tell whom to repaire to for instruction in faith or for counsaile in direction of manners or for the comfort of the holy Sacraments nor can haue any knowne Pastours to gouerne the Church nor any knowne sheepe to obey these Pastours nor can haue any Historiographer to write their actes thereby to edifie men with the vertues exercised by them or so much as to make it appeare to posterity that such a company hath bene according to Christs promise alwaies extant in the world In this respect it may be called a Church Lamentant or a Lamentable Church 1 MY Aduersary being in a deepe discourse about the persons and societies of men to whom alone God vouchsafes the assistance of his Spirit for the vnderstanding and beleeuing the things of faith thinks himselfe interrupted by a speech of mine in the place quoted touching the Church Militant and Triumphant the which if he had misliked he should haue confuted in it owne place where I vsed it to shew the true state of the question concerning the visiblenes of the Church saying the question is of the Militant Church though we say also that the Church mentioned in the Creed euery member whereof is saued be in some sort inuisible too in that the Church Triumphant in heauen which is one part of the Church mentioned in the Creed is to vs that liue here inuisible and onely beleeued This speech my Aduersary according to his disordered and cowardly Method vsed in all his booke durst not confute in it owne place where it lay but drawes in backwards by the taile into the den of his discourse as * Apollodo de orig deorum they say Cacus did the oxen he stole from Hercules that he might the better descant vppon it when his Reader by this his glancing at it cannot know the purpose whereto I intended it nor the ground whereupon I affirmed it 2 That which he sayes is foure things First that I call that which consists of Professours the Church Militant the which you see he mentions so that one would thinke he meant to condemne it yet he dares not but onely craftily repeats it to expose it to censure with the rest that followes for a Catech. Roman pag. 112. edit Colo. an 1507. Bellar. Eccl. mil. c. 1. his owne side speakes in the same manner D. Bannes b 22. pag 94. edit Venet. apud Dâ—mian Zâ—nar 1602. sayes The Church which VPON THE EARTH LIVES IN WARFARE is called Militant One way as it is a congregation of such as professe the faith of God another way as it is congregated not onely by faith but also by Baptisme In this therefore there is no fault but all is well for this part of the Church on earth that liues in the Camp warfaring with the
Diuell the world and the flesh in that respect by the Papists owne confession is rightly called the Church Militant 3 Next he sayes the Church which consisteth onely of the Elect I call the Catholicke Church Which he dares not denie neither when he bethinks himselfe a little better how the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed c Catech. Rom. in symb § Sanctorum communionem is no other then that whereto belongs the Communion of Saints the forgiuenesse of sinnes the life euerlasting and though the reprobate and vnbeleeuers mingled among these are called also by the name d Shewed cap. 39. n 6. yet are they no true or vniuocall members thereof in as much as e Eph. 5.23 Christ is the Sauiour of his body but the Church wherein they liue as mice and vermine liue in a mans house is called Catholicke in respect of the Elect. 4. The third thing he sayes is that this Church Militant and Catholicke to keepe the Antithesis I should either haue called the Church Triumphant not as Catholickes meane Triumphant but because being visible it may triumph indeed in that no persecutors can find know or hurt them But this foolish conceite auoids not that I said but idlely and rudely flies from it for the Church which in that place I affirmed to be inuisible is not the militant but the Church of the Elect alone which considered apart by it selfe and abstracting from all other respects our aduersaries themselues confesse to be inuisible in that they hold f Possunt homines aliquibus coniectutis opinari quinam sint qui ad hunc piorum hominuÌ„ nun erum pertineant certò autem scire minime possunt Haec Ecclesiae pars est incognita Cate. Rom. p 113. no man can iudge who are elected nor see the glorified triumphing in heauen and so they lie open to the Iesuites raw conceite as much as we 5 Fourthly he giues a reason why I should rather haue called the Church Triumphant then Militant or Catholicke because being as Protestants hold inuisible it neede feare no persecution but may triumph indeed when no man can hurt or finde them And then spinning out the conceite he sayes It may also be called a Lamentant or a lamentable Church in that being inuisible members thereof can haue no fellowship one with another nor performe those offices which should be done or tell where to seeke for instruction Sacraments or Pastors nor finally haue so much as a Historiographer to write their actes c. In this respect the Protestants inuisible Church may be called a Church Lamentant or a Lamentable Church This is the Iesuites crudity and yet a well digested answer to that I said touching these matters would haue more preuailed with all that loue the truth For how and in what manner we hold the Church to be inuisible and how all this that is obiected may be answered I haue shewed at large g §. 17. ad 24. in the WAY And here I onely admonish my aduersary that he had a Lamentable cause in hand and as Lamentable a faculty to mannage it when with a flegmaticke iest he mentions that which yet in the place where he was put to it thought it his best course to say nothing to it CHAP. XXII 1. Reports made by Papists that the Protestants are without religion They hold the iustification of the Gentiles without the Gospell or knowledge of Christ 2 No saluation but in one true religion 3 The Repliers tergiuersation Page 131. A. D. The conclusion of my first Chapter to wit that faith is necessary to saluation was chiefly intended to be set downe against such as thinke it sufficient to leade a morall honest life without care of imbracing either one White p. 2. or other faith Both my aduersaries grant this my conclusion therefore I need not say much about this matter 1 The conclusion here mentioned that faith is necessary to saluation was not chiefly intended against such as thinke a morall honest life sufficient without care of imbracing faith but against the Protestants whom a Wright Art 1. Posseâ—in bibl select l 8 c. 1. ad 12. they report to haue no Faith nor God nor Religion but to be meere Atheists Hosius and Prataeolus b Prateol elench l. 1. c 77. pag. 71. write that we worship the Diuell and as Catholickes forsooth worship God 9. times aday so we inuocate and worship the Deuill 10. times aday D. Stapleton sayes c Qu. 3. quod lib. p. 621. There is no Religion at all in vs neither true nor false neither earnest nor fained and what opinions they haue raised of vs in Italy and Spaine all men know neither is it credible that he thinks the faith of Christ to be so necessary to saluation as here he sayes for many Diuines of his Church allow saluation to the Gentiles who haue no faith but only morall honesty of life d Sleid. comment an 52. p. 690. This was preached at the Councell of Trent and published by e Andrad orthod explic p. 291. a principall man of the Councell the Diuines also of Collen f Bale cent 14. c. 59. pag. 220. set foorth bookes concerning the saluation of Aristotle wherein they maintained that as Iohn Baptist was the forerunner of Christ in the things of grace so Aristotle was his forerunner in the things belonging to nature Yea g Acost de Indorum salut l. 5. c. 3. Grego de Val. â—om 3. pag. 302. a Iesuite blabs it out that certaine Schoole Doctors of this time very graue men confirme that saluation may be had without any knowledge of Christ the which is true and these Doctors h That the Gentiles which know not the gospell are iustified and saued by their morall life and beleeuing that there is a God rewarding such as come towards him without the knowledge or faith of Christ is an opinion that hath great patrons in the Church of Rome Gregory of Valenza sayes it is holden by Vega Soto and Victoria to whom CASSALIVS de quadripart inst part 1. l. 1. c. 12. adds Aquinas Lyra Abulensis Bruno Dionysius Carthus Arboreus Laudunens Durand Capreolus Paludanus Ludouicus Viues and himselfe thinkes it may be holden safely Nullum in hac parte discrimen rimendum videtur si quis sibi concessa optione sententiam hanc vel illam obnixè tucatur pag. 51. ANDRADIVS Vt quis cum Deo arctissimo charitatis iustitiaeque vinculo prioribus illis seculis constringeretur nullam aliam fidem requirebat Paulus quam credere Deum esse inquirentium se munificentissimum remuneratorem esse Hanc qui accepta à rebus creatis disciplina fuerint consecuti quid est quod à iustitiae sinibus excludantur c. pag. 290. orth expl VEGA Atque hinc persuaderi potest non solum iustificari posse homines sed saluariâ—â— sine fide Christi explicita cum haberi possit ignorantia inuincibilis
presume to attaine faith without vsing the meanes Secondly to helpe such as despaire when they either know not that there is such a meanes or vnderstand not what in particular it is To take away presumption and desperation he layes downe this conclusion touching the rule of faith the which when he afterward defines to be his Romane Church speaking by the mouth of the Pope you may perceaue what a ready way he takes to keepe men from Presumption and Desperation 2 But whatsoeuer his intent were he sayes I grant him 4. things which is in a manner as much as he desires First that there is such a rule left Secondly that by this rule we may be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for true faith Thirdly that the cause why men misse the truth is because they either finde it not or obey it not Fourthly this rule is of such nature that it is able to direct al men yea the simplest and vnlearnedst aliue The which I granted him then and by these presents do grant againe vpon condition he will not be proud of that I giue him without any vantage to his purpose as if he had obtained some great boone but hold him to my grant mannerly and incroach no further For I gaue him warning that if he meant such a rule as all men at all times may haue accesse vnto as being concealed from none but visible and reuealed or manifest to all places ages and persons I would not grant it him for the reasons there expressed the which my exception in this place he calles vnorderly running before the Hare and in his next Section answers by expounding himselfe that he did not meane it should be actually manifest but onely such as * Doth he meane I maâ—uell in his Potentia remota whereof pag. 165. below c. 26. might be knowne but I ranne not before the Hare for I hunted a Foxe that was closely stealing to the wood in which game good Fox-hunters say it is not against the law to crosse the way and marke his headding For his head is to the wood in euery conclusion aiming at nothing but to traine by degrees such as follow him into his visible Church and the Popes authority ruling therein and therefore I distinguisht the diuers sences of his words being acquainted before with old Reinard Gregory of Valence in whose steppes I saw the Reply to tread and shewed which was true and which false that there might be no ambiguity And although he answer that I mistake him when I thought his meaning was this rule should be manifest and actually knowne to all yet I am not satisfied for though I giue him leaue to expound himselfe and accept his exposition yet what I suspected necessarily followes still of that he saies afterward as I then obserued for g Treat c. 10. in the WAIE §. 13. he defines the teaching of the Church to be the rule and this Church he maintaines to be such as not onely is of it nature visible and such as may be seene but h Treat c. 12. in the WAIE §. 18. inde manifest and actually knowne to all places ages and persons in the world And it followes manifestly of that if you say that sometime the Church could not be knowne nor be a meanes whereby the true faith might be knowne then men liuing at such time should want the meanes and so it were not vniuersally true that God would haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth He that saies the Church is the Rule and such a rule as all men vniuersally may at all times know meanes that the rule is manifest and actually knowne to all this meaning he disclaimes and I am satisfied with it yet it followes violently vpon his owne wordes 3 Thirdly from the 4. things I graunt he gathers 3. things more First that No man must presume or once hope to attaine to true faith without finding and following the rule thereof ordained by God Secondly that No man neede to despaire though he be neuer so vnlearned or simple but by seeking finding and follwing this rule he may be sufficiently instructed in faith Thirdly that it concernes euery one careful of his saluation to seek follow this rule for his instruction in the faith which is necessary to saluation These three I likewise yeeld him though they be not that which he principally almes at to encourage him because it will be some little honesty for him when his friends reade his booke to shew them what materiall points he hath extorted from M. White but the gift is not great my aduersary will returne the whole 7. backe againe in exchange for one single one that I can name him CHAP. XXV The text of 1. Tim. 2.4 God willes all men to be saued c. expounded The diuers expositions that are giuen of those wordes Gods antecedent will as they call it is not his will formally The antecedent consequent will of God expounded diuers wayes A.D. § 1. Concerning the meaning of the Apostles wordes Pag. 145. GOD WIL ALL MEN TO BE SAVED c. First it is certaine that the meaning of the Apostles words is not that God hath an absolute effectuall will and decree to saue euery man or to bring euery man in particular to the knowledge of the truth or to the knowledge of that â—â—â—diate rule and meanes which he hath ordained to instruct men in faith This is euident because if there were any such absolute and effectuall will and decree in God then since his will is alwaies fulfilled all should effectually be saued or should actually come to the knowledge of the truth or at least to the knowledge of that Rule and meanes which God hath ordained to instruct men in faith which euident experience telleth vs not to be true By which my assertion M. White may see how much he mistaketh when he thinkes me to meane that the Rule and Meanes ordained by God is not onely as I speake visible that is such as may be assigned and knowne White pag. 9. but also manifested as M. White speaketh that is such as is actually knowne to all places ages and persons in the world Secondly whereas there are diuers expositions of these wordes of the Apostle giuen by good authors the chiefe question betwixt me and my aduersaries is about the exposition of S. Damascen S. Thomas and many other learned Diuines who hold that the Apostle saying that God will all men to be saued meaneth that God hath an Antecedent will to saue euery man although considering the sinnes of men he he hath a consequent will to condemne some This exposition my Aduersaries mislike either in their ignorance because they do not vnderstand it aright or for that they adhere to some part of Caluines error about Praedestination with which it cannot stand Wherefore to instruct their ignorance in this point and to deliuer them or at least others
Scripture Bellarmine g Bell. de verb. Dei lib. 4. c. 1. The name of tradition is applied by Diuines to signifie onely vnwritten doctrine Alphonsus h Alphons à Castr adu haer lib 1. c. 5. This is to be laid for a most sound foundation that the traditions of the vniuersall Church and the determinations thereof in things concerning faith are of no lesse authority then the sacred Scripture it selfe though there be no Scripture to proue them Hessels of Louan i Hessel expli symb c. 69. p. 38. The Apostles neuer intended by their writing to commit to writing the whole doctrine of faith but as necessity vrged them what in their absence they could not teach that they committed to writing Costerus the Iesuite k Coster enchirid p. 43. It was neuer the mind of Christ either to commit his mysteries to parchment or that his Church should depend on paper writings Lindane l Lind. panopl. pag. 4. We Catholickes teach that Christians are to beleeue many things which are to be acknowledged for Gods word that are not contained in the Scripture and many things finally to be receiued with the same authoritie wherewith those doctrines of faith are receiued which are contained in holy writ Rodericus Delgado m Roderic dosm de autor Script l. vlt. p. 63 Albeit these things are not found written in the Bible yet they must no lesse be obserued by the godly that they may fulfill the precepts and firmely beleeue the mysteries of the heauenly faith Doctor Stapleton n Staplet princip doctr l. 12. cap. 5. There both were among the Iewes and are among vs very many things religiously performed in the worship of God and also necessary to saluation and necessarily to be beleeued which yet are not comprehended in the Scriptures but are approued or commended to vs ONELY by the authority of the Church Gregory of Valentia o Valent. tom 3. p. 258. D. All the controuersie is whether the Apostles by word of mouth WITHOVT WRITING deliuered any such doctrines as now affoord an infallible argument for the determining of the controuersies of faith in the Church These wordes of our aduersaries make it more then plaine that the Church of Rome holds the Scriptures vnsufficient not onely in respect of breeding faith or bringing men to know and beleeue it ordinarily which we grant but also in respect of containing it in themselues which we deny And that my aduersary holds the same thing I will prone directly For ha-laid downe 4. grounds First that true faith is necessary Secondly that this faith is onely one Thirdly that this faith must be certaine Fourthly and entire in all points he addes the fift that it must not be doubted but God hath prouided and left some certaine rule and meanes whereby euery man may in all points and questions be sufficiently and infallibly instructed WHAT is to be holden for true faith and then immediately he puts the question what in particular may be assigned to be this rule wherto he answers in his first conclusion The Scripture alone especially as translated into English cannot be this rule Which I denied Therefore his question was touching the sufficiency of the Scripture as the said sufficiency is opposed to vnwrittē traditiō not as it is distinguished against the requisite condition of the meanes to be vsed for the vnderstanding of the Scripture And this I confirme for my aduersary saies they hold the Scripture to be part of the rule because it is part of the doctrine of the Church immediatly reuealed by God but yet there are many substantiall points of faith not contained in them Yea p Pag. 67. Reply his expresse words are The question is betwixt vs and Protestants whether God did reueale any thing to the Prophets and Apostles necessary to be beleeued which is not now expressed or so contained in the Scripture that by euident and necessary consequence excluding all tradition and Church authority it may be gathered out of some sentence expresly set downe in the Scripture I did not therefore peruert the state of the question but my Aduersary hauing nothing else to say thought good by this shift to rid himselfe from that which he saw could not be answered 4 Neuerthelesse pleasing himselfe with his owne conceite he concludes that conuicted with the euidence of truth I haue yeelded to his conclusion in that sence wherein he meant it That Scripture alone is not the rule of faith And therefore all my discourse is idle and impertinent I answer two things first if his conclusion The Scripture alone is not this rule which almighty God hath prouided whereby euery man may sufficiently be instructed WHAT is to be holden for true faith meane no more but onely to adde the Ministry of the Church and mens owne industry to the Scripture as the meanes for the ordinary vnderstanding and beleeuing that which is written in it in this sence the Scripture alone is the rule whereby to iudge whatsoeuer matter belongs to faith but Scripture alone is not the ordinary rule and meanes by it selfe to kindle in vs the true knowledge and faith of that which it containes without the Ministrie of the Church and other things be ioyned with it for the learning of it then I grant it and require the Iesuite againe in lieu thereof either to renounce his traditions or else confesse they haue no other vse but onely to helpe to expoūd and teach that which is wholly contained in the Scripture without any power to supply any defect of doctrine that may be supposed to be therein And when he hath done the next treatise of faith he writes to distinguish a little better betweene the Rule and the Meanes of applying it and not say that is no sufficient rule whereby to be instructed WHAT is faith and WHAT not which onely is not a sufficient meanes to bring men to faith without the subordinate condition of such meanes as is required in the application of any rule Secondly I answer that his conclusion meanes more viz. That Scripture alone is vnperfect and defectiue 2. waies The first in that without other meanes it doth not ordinarily breed or draw foorth in vs assent to that it reueales nor so much as make vs see the reuelation to be And therefore there needes the Church by her Pastor to teach and perswade vs and there needes the Spirit of God and industrie in our selues This way no Protestant euer denied The second is in that it alone containes not all Gods word or all such truth as he hath reuealed necessarily to be beleeued but onely one small and obscure part thereof the best part or at least some part being by Tradition onely vnwritten This way we deny with open mouth and the Iesuite holds it and in the place now controuerted hugges it in his armes and therefore I discoursed against him as I did and in no other sense and so consequently it is
THE DIVINE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD THAT IS THE RVLE OF FAITH And my aduersary is but a meane disputer if he thinke to disproue this by obiecting some verball errors For either they wil proue no errors at all or if they do D. Stapleton shall tell him they hinder nothing the truth of the matter nor the integritie of the text and I will giue him a whole legion of his owne writers that shall impute as foule errors to his Trent vulgar which yet he thinkes infallible Neuerthelesse his arguments in disproofe of that I say are three First the testimonies of Martin Reynolds and the Grounds of the new religion Secondly the testimonie of M. Broughton and Carlile Thirdly the diuersitie of translations in our Church Wherto I answer first in general that I satisfied these reasons sufficiently in my booke and gaue direct answer to them whereto he hath replied nothing but onely repeates his obiections He was therefore too hastie to call that bold blinde and false which he could not reply to me brazen faced that said no more but what himself giues experience of For I said Martin could not giue one instaÌ„ce of any sence corrupted in our traÌ„slations himself in stead of producing somwhat out of Martin breaks out into railing which is folly For cocks of the game are not allowed to crow til they haue beateÌ„ their mate for he that crowes and yet runnes away is a crauin and shall haue his necke wrung off or be turned to the dunghill to crow among hens Secondly I answer in particular to the first ad 1. it is but a foolish brag to be contemned To the second ad 2. it is reported a Protest apol tract 1. sect 10. subdiuis 4. on Briarlies credit who is an aduersary But allowing they said as much as is alledged the truth must be tried not by the hastie speeches of a discontented man but by the thing it selfe and I shewed in the 7. Digress how diuers Papists haue said worse of the Latin vulgar which yet is holden infallible by the Iesuite Mariana b Tract de vulg edit pag. 103. sayes Diuers learned men of France Italy and Germanie in their writings accuse the corruption of the vulgar edition and the negligence of the interpreter and that it containes many lies in things of smaller moment His third reason is ad 3. if our Translations were not erronious what need were there after so many varieties of translations to coine a new translation of the Bible different from all that haue bene before the which also when it comes will be of infallible authoritie no more then the former c. c Praef. before the new translated Bible The Translators haue answered this themselues so religiously and learnedly that it will content any godly minde onely our Iesuites of Momus race will carpe at any thing d Lucian Hermotim pag. 113 Graec. Aldi de vera hist l. 2. sub init Natal Com. They write of Momus that none of the gods could do any thing but he had a quarrell at it When Neptune had made a bull Vulcan a man and Minerua a house he quarrelled at the bull because the hornes stood on his head the man because he had not a window in his breast the house because it stood not on wheeles to remoue it when it stood not well And e Philocran ep ad vxor when Venus walked by smiling at his conceit he told her she was not well made neither * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 384. and her shooe made too much creaking as she went My aduersary hath a spice of Momus in him His humour affirmes foure things first that the translation is coined This we denie for coining signifies translating otherwise then the originall languages intend which they haue not done for any thing the Iesuite knowes for he had not seene it when he wrote this and whensoeuer he sees it he hath not so much learning as to compare it with Greeke and Hebrew and the Reader may iudge the better of it by this that it agrees throughout with the translations of the learned in the Church of Rome Pagnine Vatablus Munster Erasmus Arias better then the vulgar doth of which translation many Romish Catholicke Doctors report d Refert Azor. part 1. sum mor l. 8. c. 3. pag. 639 §. Quarto that there be some corruptions in it and that things might haue bene translated more clearly significantly properly truly and better and things naughtily translated yea in a contrary sence and nothing to the purpose He that is bound to such a translation with an ill grace tels vs of coining Secondly he affirmes our new translation to be different from all that haue bene before this is stale and I vouchsafe it onely this answer How can he tell that saw it not before he writ this it not being then come forth Thirdly he sayes that with much cost care and scandall to our cause it is set forth For the care and cost he hath nothing to do his Highnesse and the State and learned of our Church he now begins to see will spare neither care nor cost to aduance Gods truth and impart the sacred Scripture to his people which the Pope and his Cleargie with so much care and cost haue laboured to destroy The scandall concernes him nearer but that he is a Pharisee and so can receiue no formall scandall from vs. Or if he will assume to himselfe so tender a conscience as to be afraid of scandall let him speake out and trifle not what scandall is it now when learning and meanes increase to make a new translation ouer it was in the primitiue Church when Lucian Ierom and others made their new translations the Church hauing many translations in it before What scandall is it more then was e See Cassand praef ord Rom. Gregories altering of the Liturgies when euen with generall contradiction increasing to mutinie he abolished the old to make roome for his new or more then is the infinite varietie of Liturgies Breuiaries and Missals in the Church of Rome at this day the varietie whereof is almost reached in the different editions of their translations in so much that THE TRENT COVNCEL HAVING AVTHORISED AND PREFERRED THE LATIN-VVLGAR YET NO PAPIST LIVING CAN TELL WHICH IS CERTAINLY IT whether the edition of the Goths or Complute or Louane or Clement or Sixtus or any other For as there be these and diuers other editions of the vulgar set forâ—h and allowed in the Church of Rome by the Pope so do they neuer a one of them agree with other which fully returnes the scandall into my aduersaries owne bosome and for euer debarres his sectaries from obiecting to vs the varietie of our translations wherein if there be any force it will pinch them as much as vs. 3 Fourthly he affirmes our new translation to be of infallible authoritie no more then the former were that
words seeming plaine are to be vnderstood properly as they sound and when they are to be taken in a figuratiue or improper sence This say I is not to be learned sufficiently in the bare letter of Scripture alone but is to be learned of the Church according to that worthy saying of Vincentius Lyrinensis Vincent Lyr. cont haeres c. 2. Because all men do not take the holy Scripture for the height of it in one and the same sence but diuers men interpret the sayings of it diuersly in so much that almost so many different sences may seeme possible to be drawne from it as there are diuers men c. Therefore it is very necessarie that the line of Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of Ecclesiasticall and Catholicke sence True it is that by other probable meanes viz. rules of art knowledge of tongues obseruation of circumstances conference of places c. one but not euery lay-man woman and childe euen of M Wotton and M. Whites owne parish may probably finde out when the words are and when they are not to be vnderstood properly but infallibly in such sort as to build thereupon infallible assent of faith one cannot without infallible interpretation had either immediatly by reuelation of the Spirit which is not ordinarily to be expected or by infallible authoritie of the Church True it is also that ordinarily Diuines hold it for a certaine rule that words of Scripture are to be vnderstood properly as they sound vnlesse to auoide some absurditie we be compelled to interprete by a figure But when such an absurditie occurreth that ought to compell vs to interprete plaine words of Scripture by a figure and when not although reason it selfe may probably know which probable knowledge may suffice for direction of manners yet infallibly in such sort as is required to the assent of faith reason alone not assisted by Church authoritie cannot at the least alwayes tell sith many things may seeme absurd to our priuate sence and reason which in truth are not absurd as in the mystery of the blessed Trinitie may plainly appeare and contrariwise many things may seeme in reason not absurd which in true Diuinitie are absurd and most false 1 HIs second reason against the Scriptures being the rule of faith was their obscuritie because they faile in the second condition of the rule being of themselues alone so obscure and vnknowne both to the vnlearned and learned that no man can thereby alone be sufficiently directed This reason was handled § 7 and 8. where I answered the argument whereby he prosecuted it and euery word also that he replies here which makes me to wonder with what conscience he followes his cause when that he sayes here being answered he shrinks from replying and onely repeates his old argument againe and yet intitles his booke a Reply when he replies nothing but conceales all from his Reader that I answered neuerthelesse that he sayes I will answer againe 2 First he tels in what sence he holds the Scripture to be obscure and how farre forth Not that it cannot by any meanes be vnderstood or that it is any imperfection in the Scripture to be obscure but the perfection rather the onely thing he goes about to proue being that de facto it is obscure or at the least not so easie as the ordinary rule of faith ought to be which is denied and confuted not denying some parts to be obscure as many prophecies and mysteries therein nor affirming any of it to be so effectuall to our vnderstanding that without the motion of Gods Spirit and vse of the meanes euery man can effectually vse it to his saluation for I neuer denied the requisite condition of Gods grace and the Churches teaching and our owne endeuour to open our vnderstanding euen in the plainest Scripture that is but I onely affirme all things concerning faith and good life needfull to be knowne to be so plainly set downe therein that the vnlearnedst man aliue vsing the meanes which is not the Church-authoritie intended by my aduersary and being enlightned with Gods Spirit may sufficiently vnderstand them to his saluation which is enough to make it a rule perfect entire and as easie as is possible for a rule to be for the finding out and deciding whatsoeuer matter belongs to faith For howsoeuer some things in the Scripture the knowledge whereof is not simply necessary to saluation be very obscure and doubtfull yet the whole rule of our faith needfull to all men is set downe so plainly that it may be vnderstood of all men allowing them some eleuation and onely supposing them to haue the light of grace and to take that paines in searching that is ordinarily required in the vse of any rule and in the execution of any meanes whatsoeuer It seemes my aduersarie would conclude from hence that therefore I grant Scripture alone not to be so easie as the rule of faith ought to be because I require so many euen outward meanes and helpes for the vnderstanding thereof beside the helpe of Gods Spirit within vs. But he is deceiued and deceiues his Reader for I expounded my selfe that it is not necessarie the rule be so easie and effectuall that no helpe shall be needfull for the applying it to our conscience but the perfection and easinesse of it stands in this that a man vsing diligence and eleuated by grace from his naturall ignorance shall finde therein absolutely and plainly all things whatsoeuer he is bound to know and beleeue and needs not that the Church by her authoritie and traditions should adde any thing to it that is not contained in it And that this condition of vsing meanes and outward helpes takes not away the reason of a rule he must confesse by his owne principles for let his Church-teaching and authoritie his owne Helena be the rule yet afore any man can determinately know it or vnderstand and yeeld to it he must I hope haue the grace of the Spirit and seeke it out and diligently attend what it teaches him which is as much as we require for the vnderstanding of the Scriptures This therefore is a vaste partialitie in my Iesuite that he will conclude a thing cannot be a sufficient rule or meanes that requires the helpe of grace and a mans owne industrie in the applying it when themselues holding their Church to be the rule yet confesse that no man can heare the voice thereof not vnderstand nor yeeld assent to it without the very same meanes that we require for the vnderstanding of the Scriptures What voice what complaint what querimonie shall we vtter against this peruersnesse against this spirit of contradiction But my aduersarie sayes that among these outward meanes and helpes which M. White requires to the vnderstanding of the Scripture besides the Spirit of God there must be one an outward meanes which is * There is no such outward infalible means in this life
follow that the Scripture ALONE euen in those plaine places is the rule because no man without some other meanes besides the plainenesse of the words can be infallibly assured that he vnderstands them right the which he proues first because some places seeming plaine are vnderstood otherwise then they seeme Secondly because the plainest places that are may be wrested to a wrong sense as that plaine place This is my body is wrested by the Caluinists to a figuratiue sense I answer his reason why Scripture alone could not be the rule of faith was because it is not plaine the which obscurity I denied to be in that which is necessary to be knowne affirming the Scripture in such places to be plaine now he replies that though such places be plaine yet still it cannot be the rule Thus first he denies the Scripture to be the rule because it is not plaine and then allowing it againe to be plaine yet still he denies it to be the rule What will this man stand to I maruell But they be not plaine enough because without some other infallible meanes besides the seeming plainenes of the words no man can be infallibly assured that he vnderstands aright euen those plaine places This absurd cauill I haue answered twenty times first that the meanes whereby this is done are the helpe of Gods Spirit our owne diligence the Church-teaching the light of nature and these meanes are infallible And these meanes I admit either coniunctim or diuisim to be necessary as a condition and medium for the full assurance of vnderstanding these places but this condition takes not away the true motion and reasons of plainenesse from them for as I answered in my booke to this argument that is not obscure which by ordinary and easie meanes may be vnderstood but which either hath no meanes at all to open it or onely such as are not ordinary to his confirmation d THE WAY p. 36. n. 2. I answered likewise But to his instances of the Caluinists wresting a plaine place This is my body to a figuratiue sense I reply first it is plaine and euident that it is a figure by the circumstances of the place when he that said the words This is my body that is giuen for you at the same instant held nothing but bread in his hand and liued and was neither yet glorified nor crucified and spake of a sacrament wherein it is ordinary to speake figuratiuely Secondly the Papists do the same in the next words This cup is the new Testament and yet they hold them to be plaine words if my aduersary will be smattering about the exposition of these words let him giue a reall answer to the place of my booke e Digr 49. n. 8. where they are handled of purpose for him 6 Next he sayes though the letter of the Scripture be neuer so plaine yet to haue infallible assuraÌ„ce of the sence there is required some other rule and meanes the which rule is not in the bare letter of the Scripture but is to be learned of the Church as Vincentius saith The which being the same he said before without difference or augmentation let it briefly receiue the same answer That the requisite coÌ„dition of vsing ordinary easie meanes wherof the ministry of the Church truly expounded is one I neuer denied but this proues not the Scriptures to be obscure nor remoues infallible assurance froÌ„ the Scripture to the Church but onely shewes that the Scripture infallibly out of it selfe giues vs this assurance by this meanes and VinceÌ„tius his words affirme no more for by the rule of Ecclesiasticall and Catholicke sence according to the which he requires the line of propheticall and apostolicall interpretation to be directed he meanes no vnwritten Church-tradition or doctrine that is wanting in the Scripture for he holds the Scripture it selfe to be sufficient for euery thing but onely that that which is in the Scripture be so vnderstood as agrees with the rule of faith which the true Church hath alwaies holden now that which the Church hath alwaies holden is contained in the Scripture alone that the Reader may see the Iesuites treachery in alledging Vincentius against the sufficiency of the Scripture who in that very place which belike he neuer saw with his owne eyes begins thus Here possible one may demand when the rule of the Scripture is perfect and in it selfe more then enough sufficient vnto all things Note here whether he thinks as the Iesuite doth that many substantiall points of doctrine needfull to saluation are not contained in them and that it is but a part of the rule what need is there to ioyne vnto it the authority of the Churches sence and he answers as the Iesuite hath alledged that this is because all men do not take it in one sence therefore it is necessary that the line of interpretation be directed according to the rule of Ecclesiasticall and Catholicke sence In which manner he speakes also in f Diximus in superioribus hanc suisse semper esse hodie Catholicorum consuetudinem vt fidem veram duoâ—us his modis approbent Primum diuini canonis authoritate Deinde â—cclesiae catholicae traditione Non quia canon solus non sibi ad vniuersa sufficiat sed quia verba diuina pro suo plerique arburatis interpetantur cap. 41. another place not supposing any thing to be wanting in the Scripture so much as to giue infallible assurance of it owne sence much lesse any articles of faith needfull to saluation but onely supposing that some heretikes would not yeeld to that it gaue or possible through their owne default did not see it and thereupon aduises to oppose against them the rule and practise of the Church as a man by witnesses would conuince him that denies the truth the which practise as it hinders not the Scriptures to containe the perfect rule of faith so we will allow it and require no sence or exposition of the Scripture nor no point of religion to be receiued vnles it be thus directed 7 It is therefore vntrue that he concludes with one cannot infallibly be assured when the words of the Scripture are to be vnderstood properly and when not without the authority of the Church vnlesse it be by reuelation I say this is false vpon two points first because this assurance may be had as from the externall meanes by the Scripture it selfe though the Church say nothing Next because this Church authority he vnderstands to be the externall testimony of the Church reuealing if not making the said sence out of tradition which is not written and not out of the Scripture it selfe so that the vnderstanding which I haue of the sence and my perswasion that it is the true sence shall not be founded on the Scripture but on the authority of the Church of Rome that sayes it which g THE WAY §. 8. n. 7. digr 11. I confuted affirming that this
assurance and the assurance of all other things beleeued is wrought and bred in the heart by the Spirit of God principally and then by the alone words of the Scripture ioyned therewith as by the formal beginning of that my assurance and by the ministry of the Church onely as Gods ordinance appointed to helpe me to attaine and recouet that sence and assurance that by meanes of this helpe arises in me from the Scripture it selfe though many times and very ordinarily this is done without all motion of the Church whatsoeuer by onely reading as I haue often said in case when men are either conuerted from Athisme or confirmed in the truth without hearing or knowing of the Church by onely reading CHAP. XXX Touching the Al-sufficiency of the Scripture to the matter of faith 2. It shewes it selfe to be Gods word Luthers denying Saint Iames his Epistle 3. How the Papists expound the light of the Scripture 4. What they and what we hold about the authority of the Church 6. How expresse Scripture is required A. D. § 3. Pag. 187. The Scripture containeth not all points of faith concerning my third reasō I wish the reader to obserue that I do not attribute any imperfection to the Scripture when I proue that it containeth not all points of faith For want of perfection in a thing is not to be accounted an imperfection vnlesse it can be shewed that the perfection which wanteth doth necessarily pertaine to the nature of the thing or at least is due and ought to be in it as my aduersaries will neuer be able to shew that to containe all points of faith doth necessarily pertaine to the nature of Scripture or is due or ought to be in it This being noted I need say little in confirmation of this argument as hauing vrged it sufficiently against M. Wootton and M. White in the introduction in such sort as they will neuer be able sufficiently to answer it Onely here I will aske one question of M. White White p. 48. who telleth vs that the Scripture manifesteth it selfe to be diuine in regard the vertue and power that sheweth it selfe in euery line and leafe of the Bible proclaimeth it to be the word of the eternall God and the sheepe of Christ discerne the voice and light thereof as men discerne light from darkenesse c. If this be so how chanceth it that his illuminated Luther whom doubtlesse M. White will account one of the sheepe of Christ could not see that S. Iames his Epistle was diuine Scripture by the vertue and power that sheweth it selfe in euery line and leafe of it no lesse then in other places of Scripture shall he be accounted illuminated or rather starke blinde that could not discerne light from darkenesse And shall not M. White also be accounted not so much blinde as braine-sicke that fancieth to himself such a light to shine in euery leafe and line of the Bible that euery one that is the sheepe of Christ discerneth it no otherwise then he that hath corporall eye-sight discerneth outward light from darkenesse True it is there is the vertue and power of God in the Scripture there is puritie and perfection of matter maiestie of speech power ouer the conscience certaintie of Prophecies c. but these do not shine like light to our vnderstanding till it be illuminated with the light of faith as euery one euen of the elect is not at all times indued with faith nor then neither vnlesse those things be propounded duly mediatè or immediatè by the authoritie of the Church vpon which being like a candlesticke the light of the Scripture must be set or else it will not according to the ordinary course of Gods prouidence sufficiently shine and appeare vnto vs in such sort as to giue infallible assurance Wootton p. 89. White pag. 46. that it is the word of God It troubleth M. wootton M. White both that I say there be diuers substantiall points which are not expressely set nowne and determined in Scripture which they being conuinced with euidence of the matter cannot deny to be so but say they this is not the question But by their leaues this was first the question when their Grandfather Luther was so hoate to haue expresse Scripture See Gretz in defens Bellar. tom 1 in li. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto cap. 3. See introduct q. 2. as that he would haue all expressed euen in wordes Afterwards indeed when his fury cooled a litle he thought it sufficient if all were expressed though not in so many sillables yet in sense And now of late our new Ministers seeing that this also cannot be defended haue made the question whether all be contained in Scripture that is either expressely or so as without Church authoritie or Traditions al necessary points of doctrine may be necessarily euidently or by good consequence deduced out of that which is expressed in Scripture In which sense also they will be neuer able to shew that all points and namely those which I mentioned in my third argument Wootton p. 93. are contained in onely Scripture but must be forced to run to tradition and Church authority if they will haue sufficient assurance of them 1 THe third thing obiected against the Scripture was Imperfection that it containes not the whole matter of faith but many things else are needfull to be knowne and beleeued that are not written therein For though he spake somwhat reseruedly There be diuers questions of faith which are not EXPRESSLY set downe yet his meaning is There be diuers particular points to be beleeued which are contained therein neither expressely nor anyway at all but receiued vpon sole Tradition and Church authoritie as I haue a Ch. 27. n. 2. shewed and his Introduction here mentioned affirmes which being a grosse and blasphemous assertion therefore to couer the odiousnesse of it here in the first place he saies that by affirming the Scripture not to containe all points of faith he doth not attribute any imperfection to it And how I maruell will he perswade vs this when it is impossible it should be perfect that leaues vs vnperfect in the faith and reueals but a portiō of that which yet of necessitie must be known to saluation his reason is because his aduersaries will neuer be able to shew that to containe all points of faith doth belong to the nature and perfection of Scripture But I answer it pertaines to the perfection of the Scripture and is due to the nature thereof to containe all things because it selfe sayes so and there can be no other infallible or conuenient reuelation And b Propounded in the WAY Digr 3. 13. many testimonies and arguments euince it which my aduersary not being able to answer hath well and wisely passed by with silence And therefore denying this they attribute imperfection to it For to deny that which the Scripture is is to make it imperfect Athanasius
c Orat. cont Gent. sub init saies The holy Scriptures are * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficient by themselues to shew the truth Isiodore Pelusiota d L. 2. Epist 369. The sacred volumes hauing the testimony of the diuine Scriptures are the stayres whereby we ascend to God All therefore brought out of them in the Church of God receiue as proued gold tried in the fire of the Spirit of Gods truth * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and whatsoeuer things without these volumes are carried about though they haue shew of probability leaue to those that plot the fables of heresies S. Basil e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de fid pag. 394. edit Basil an 1551. It is manifest presumption and apostasie from the faith either to abrogate any of the things that are written or bring in any thing that is not written And Vincent Lirin f Monito c. 2. 41. The rule of the Scripture is perfect and in it selfe sufficient and more then sufficient vnto all things And g 3. d. 25. qu. vnic a. Gab. Biell his owne Schoolman All things necessary to be beleeued are contained in the Canonicall Scripture it belonges therefore to the perfection of the Scripture to containe all things 2. Against this he obiected the stale and threadbare argument it is not contained in the Scripture that it selfe is the word of God My answer was that the vertue and power that shewes it selfe in euery line and leafe of the Bible proclaimes it to be the word of God and the sheepe of Christ discerne the voice and light of it as men discerne sweete from sowre light from darkenesse Now he demandes in this Reply How then it chances that our illuminated Luther could not see the Epistle of S. Iames to be diuine Scripture I answer readily to the point if the Scripture be so easily and infallibly knowne to be Gods word by the authority of the Church how chances it that his illuminated Caietan h Catharin cont Nov. dog Caiet S xt Senens Biblio l. 6. annot 337. denied the same Epistle of S. Iames to be diuine Scripture how chances i Noted afore so many Papists deny the Apocrypha to be Canonicall as well as we how comes it about that Genebrard k Genebrard chronol p. 181. Posseuin appar verb. Gilb. Genebrard affirmes the third fourth Bookes of Esdras to be Canonicall Scripture which the Chuch denies Thus my Iesuit is fallen vnawares into the same pit he made for me Secondly my aduersarie l Verum est doctorem quidem Lutherū quosdam alios exemplum veteris Ecclesiae imitatos de libris modo dictis non ita praeclare sensisse sed tamen jidē postea re diligentius perpensa priorem sententiam mutare non dubitarunt Eckhard fascic pag. 21. cannot proue that M. Luther perseuered to the end in the deniall of this Epistle The iudgement of m Nonnul i antiquitus de epistolae huius authoritate dubitarunt Passeuin appar v. Iacob Apost see Euseb hist. Eccle l. 3 c. 25. Ieron Doroth de viris illust v. Iacobus so many in the Primitiue Church refusing it dazeled Luthers eyes and made him to doubt for a time but that he neuer saw and beleeued it to be Scripture to the end my aduersary will scarse be able to shew Thirdly Luthers not seeing this light proues not that there is no such light or voice in the Scripture for all faith thereof is not in an instant but successiuely and by degrees and all men at all times haue not eyes and disposition alike to see it as the Apostles at the first saw not Christ to be that he was though he were the light that came into the world Saint Austine n Tract 35. Ioh. sayes The Scriptures are lighted vp to be our Candle in this world that we walke not in darknesse Therefore they are seene by their owne light For the same Saint Austine n saies will you light a Candle to see a burning Candle for a burning Candle is able both to make manifest other things that are hidden in darkenesse and to shew it selfe to thy eyes The Scripture therefore by it owne light shewes it selfe as I said to be the word of God and if any see not this light the defect is in themselues and is remoued by no other light added but by the same light at such time as pleases God to open the eyes Theophilus Antiochenus o Orat. 1. ad Antolych sayes we must not say there is no light because the blind see it not but let them that see it not accuse their owne eyes For as in all other matters of faith it falls out among the children of God that p 1. Cor. 13.9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chrysost ibi hom 34. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Scol graec ibi some see and know more and some vnderstand and beleeue lesse then othersome yet the matters of faith themselues are one and the same and the beleeuers are inlightened with Gods Spirit though not all in the same measure so may it fall out about this obiect that some particular men may not at the first or alway perfitly see the light of euery part of Scripture or perfitly heare the voice of Christ founding therein for here in this life we know but in part and prophecy but in part though the light of the Scripture shine fully forth vnto all 3 This light of the Scripture my aduersary grants but yet to bring in his traditions and Church-authority marke how he replyes What light soeuer there be in the Scripture yet it shines not to our vnderstanding till it be illuminated with faith which the elect themselues at all times are not the which I grant and thereupon inferre that this light was neuerthelesse in the Scripture though Luther saw it not in one place thereof and the reason why he saw it not was because euery one of the elect is not at all times indued with all faith but my Iesuite addes that this light whereby the Scriptures shew themselues to be the word of God shines not to the vnderstanding illuminated with faith neither vnlesse it be propounded by the authority of the Church vpon which as vpon a Candlesticke the light of the Scripture must be set or else it will not sufficiently shine vnto vs to giue vs of it selfe infallible assurance that it is the word of God q Concedimus igitur sacras liteteras quae diuinae doctrinae continent lumen tanquam lucernam esse per seipsam splendidissimam atque fulgentissimam sed nobis tamen non in se lucidam sed quatenus est diuinitus in Ecclesiae Catholicae authoritate tanquam in candelabro positum vt luceat omnibus qui in domo sunt Errant igitur aduersarij cum scripturam esse lucernam ac illuminare nos idem esse existimant quod eam non egere Ecclesiae infallibili authoritate vt
Scripture D. Stapleton a Relect. p. 462. sayes The Church is the ground and pillar of truth in a higher kind then the Scripture namely in the kind of the efficient cause And b Pag. 494. in explicat qu. the authority of the Church may be vnderstood to be greater then the authority of the Scripture because it is not simply subiect or bound to it but may by it authority teach decerne something which the Scripture hath neither determined nor taught The things which the Church teaches do as much binde the faithfull as those things which the Scripture teacheth we Catholickes affirme that the Church is to be heard more certainely then the Scriptures because the doctrine thereof is more manifest and euident then the doctrine of the Scriptures or at the least equally with the Scriptures because the authority thereof is no lesse irrefragable and infallible The Scripture is the booke of the Church the testimonie of truth which the Church testifies the law of God which the Church hath publisht the rule of faith which the Church hath deliuered We had wont to maruell at the blasphemies c Illyric clau script p. 541. Hos de express verb. Dei of Cusanus Verratus Hosius That the Church hath authoritie aboue the Scripture The Scripture as it is produced by heretikes is the word of the Diuell A Councell is the highest tribunall and hath the same power to determine any thing that the Councell of the Apostles and Disciples had The things written in the Gospell haue no soundnesse but through the determination of the Church c. But now you see the same renewed in that Church to this day and the Iesuits in the midst of their learned subtilties to be as grosse as the grossest Friars preferring their Church authority farre aboue the Scriptures or any vse that a Candlesticke can haue in shewing the candle Note FOVRTHLY what it is that the Protestants say touching the authority of the Scripture and the Church so much as belongs to the present occasion First that the Scriptures haue in them a light and an authoritie of their owne sufficient to prooue themselues to be the word of God and to giue infallible assurance to all men of the true sense and this light and authority is not added increased or multiplied by the Ministry of the Church or any thing that it doth about the Scripture Secondly this light and authoritie of the Scripture shines in vs and takes effect in vs then onely when the Spirit of God opens our hearts to see it The defect of which heauenly illumination is the reason why some neuer and the elect themselues at all times do not see it but it argues no defect of light in the Scriptures Thirdly the means whereby God opens our eies and hearts to see this light and authoritie in the Scripture is the Ministry of the Church I expound my selfe it is the ordinary and publike meanes wherto he referres men And this Ministry is by preaching and expounding the Scripture out of it selfe and perswading and conuincing the consciences of men yet priuately and extraordinarily when and wheresoeuer this Ministry failes or ceasses the light and sense of the Scripture is obtained by the Scripture alone without this Church Ministry and the Scripture alone in this sort immediately at sundry times by it selfe giues full assurance and workes all other effects in our consciences that it doth when the Church propounds it Fourthly the Scripture is so sufficient of it selfe both to reueale whatsoeuer is needfull to be knowne and to establish and assure our heart in the infallible faith of that it reueales that the Church hath nether authority to adde so much as one article more then is contained therein nor power to giue this assurance from any thing but from the Scripture it selfe So farre forth that THE WHOLE TEACHING AND DOCTRINE AND AVTHORITIE OF THE CHVRCH IS TO BE ADMITTED AND YEELDED TO OR REFVSED ACCORDING AS IT CONSENTS OR DISAGREES WITH THE SCRIPTVRE the fountaine of truth the rule of faith Note FIFTLY what our aduersaries meane by the Church and the meanes whereby the Church executes her authority what the things are which by her authority she may do and what the proper effect is that this authority workes in vs. First by this Church d This is shewed c. 35. nu 1. c. 36. nu 1. they vnderstand the Church of Rome for the present time being and therein the Pope in whom they say the whole power and vertue of the Church abideth Secondly the meanes whereby it executeth her authority is vnwritten Tradition out of the which it supplies all things pretended to be needfull for the exposition of the Scripture or the defining of matters that must be beleeued Thirdly the things that she may do by her authoritie are all things that appertaine to the questions of religion 1 Cus epi. 2. 3. 7. to expound the Scripture after her owne iudgement 2 Conc. Trid. sess 24. can 3. to dispense against the Scripture 3 Stapl. princip l. 9. c. 14. relect pag. 514. to canonize new Scripture that before was none 4 Stapl. ibi relect p. 494. inde to giue authority to the Scripture 5 August de Ancon qu. 59. art 1. 2. to make new articles of faith 6 Gl. de transl episc Quanto §. veri to make that to be the sence of the Scripture that is not Lastly the effect of this power is the same that the Scripture breeds and more 7 Grets defens Bel. tom 1. pag. 1218. c. obedience in all that will be saued so that the world is bound as much to the Popes definitiue sentence as to the Scripture or the voice of God himselfe 8 The speech of all the canonists for Christ and the Pope make but one tribunal 9 Capistran de author Pap. pag 130. He is aboue al like him that came downe from heaueÌ„ 10 Capist ibi For with God and the Pope his will is sufficient reason and that which pleases him hath the vigor of a law 11 Palaeot de consist part 5. q 9. after his sentence pronounced no man must doubt or delay to yeeld 12 Petrisedes in Romano solâ—o collocata libertate plena in suis agendis per omnia poteri debet nec vlli subesse homini Gl. ibid. vbi sup yea all the CouÌ„cels and Doctors and Churches in the world must stoop to his determination 5 These fiue things thus obserued it is easie to se that our aduersaries attribute more to the Church then to be onely a meanes for the communicating of that which is in the Scripture to vs expounding the authority thereof that it exceedes the latitude of a Candlesticke and is turned into the Candle it selfe And so to returne to my aduersaries answer and to conclude I thus reason The Ministery and authority of the Church is required either
Scriptures make the Church perfect by cōmending it to it self for thē the Apostles should speak thus by my aduersaries exposition the Scriptures are profitable to make the Church perfect by commending to it the authority of the Church and yet he defendes it First because it sendes them Pastors Pope Councell and all to the interpretations of Councels and Fathers of the ancient Church But then I demand how did they make perfect the ancient Church it selfe the first Councels and Fathers of whom the Apostle speakes as well as of the latter for they had none to retire to but the Scripture onely Secondly because the Pastors of the Church sustaine two persons one as publike Pastors authorized to teach another as priuate men needing instruction themselues and so the Apostle saies the Scripture sends them as priuate men to themselues considered as publike men inabled as need shall require to define the truth in any point the which is an irkesome answer to any that shall consider it for although a Pastor be considered these 2. waies yet it is false that is assumed that he which as a priuate man erres and is ignorant yet as a publike person is able to direct himselfe and others and define the truth this I say is a trick to mocke an ape with though it be all the shift they haue to defend the Pope from being a formall hereticke and yet admitting it to be true that the Pastors of the Church considered as priuate men are sent to themselues considered as publike men yet it cannot be true that the Scripture makes thē perfect this way by sending and commending them to themselues because the perfection auouched is the effect of that teaching that reprouing that correcting that instructing which is contained in the Scripture it selfe and not in the authoritie of man whither the Scripture is imagined to send vs. For all that the Apostle in this text affirmes is of the Scripture alone as appeares 7 Besides my argument I alleadged some testimonies of Chrysostome and certaine Papists to iustifie my exposition wherein they affirme as much out of the text as I doe whereto he replies that the said testimonies must either be explicated to mean that the Scriptures are able to instruct vs with the meanes of Church authority or else be taken without limitation if they be thus explicated they proue nothing against him if they be taken without limitation they proue as much against vs as against him I answer to the first the testimonies are to be seene and the words thereof are so full that they cannot be thus explicated as for example Chrysostome in his words expounds S. Paul to distinguish the Scripture against his owne ministry Thou hast the Scripture to teach thee in steed of me if thou desire to know anything there thou maiest learne it that which can teach vs in steed of the Church Pastours can teach vs without their authority if God as Antonin says hath spokē but once that in the Scriptures that so fully that he speakes no more how can the meaning be that other authority should be ioyned with them for so God should speake twice once in the Scriptures another time in the Church and in the Scripture so far from fully that he needs speake againe in the Church The like may be said to the other testimonies but I refer the iudgement to the conscience of the Reader To the second if these words be taken without limitation that alone without any means ioyned to thē they are able to instruct vs they proue as much against me as against him that its maruell I should haue so little iudgement I demand and why so I pray because then they will make as much against our Church ministery as against his Church authority which had bene spoken to the point if we by Church ministry had meant either the same or as much as he doth by Church authority but when his Church authority intends a supply of that which is wanting in the Scripture by traditions our Church ministry no more but a simple cōdition of vsing the meanes to make vs see that which is contained in thē which ministry also we do not hold to be alway vnto all persons necessary he may let our iudgements alone and take a new reckoning of his owne that is so simple as to make alike things that are so far vnlike his Church authority and our Church ministry CHAP. XXXII Touching priuate spirits that expound against the Church 1. Such priuate expositions refused by the Protestants 2. And yet the Papists haue no other All teaching is to be examined euen by priuate men 5. Certaine propositions shewing how the Church teaching may be or may not be examined and refused Pag. 196. Wootton p. 110 White pag. 62. A.D. Concerning the ninth Chapter M. Wootton and M. White both seeme to disclaime from immediate teaching of priuate spirits and consequently seeme to grant the substance of the conclusion of this Chapter in such sense as it was principally intended by me yet wheresoeuer they be vrged to tell how they infallibly know that there is any Scripture at all and that these and no other bookes be Canonicall Scripture and that this or that is the true interpretation and sense of this or that text of holy Scripture vpon which questions well resolued the whole frame of their faith doth depend after alledging other reasons drawne from rules of art and knowledge of tongues c. which they know to be infallible they must be forced finally to flie for infallible assurance either to the immediate teaching of their priuate spirit or else to run the round betwixt Scripture and priuate spirit in such sort as I haue shewed in the Introduction Introd q. 6. and hence it seemeth to proceed that they both thought fit to make answer to my reasons which they needed not to haue done if the conclusion of this Chapter had no waies bene contrary to their doctrine White pag. 59. 60. M. White before he begin to answer my reasons distinguisheth a double meaning of the word priuate which I put in my conclusion and saith that if I meant it as it is opposed ô strange opposition to diuine and spirituall I said well but vsing it as we Catholickes do as it is opposed to common he saith that a priuate man may so be assisted with the Holy Ghost that he may interprete Scripture truely and infallibly against a company as big as the Roman Church 1 HIs third conclusion touching the rule of faith was that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be specially instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith specially so far foorth as he teaches or beleeues contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church the which I granted to be true but admonished the Reader withall that he had a further reach therein then yet he made shew of For his intent was to condemne all particular men and
iudge and i Gi. d. 19 Auast §. in concilio in a difficult cause whether of faith or right he must call a Councel where if the Councel he cannot agree in deciding but are contrary k AntoÌ„ de â—â—o â—eâ—â— Mon â—â—h â—â—ct de concil p 47. â—urtâ—â—eÌ„ d. 19. Sâ—cundum E câ— n. 6. then they of the two must be followed which haue the best reasoÌ„ l â—urâ—ecrem d. 40. Si â—â—pa n. 4. Simaâ—ch Cathol instit tit 12 n. 13. when the faith lies in danger the Cardinals or a CouÌ„cell may resist the Pope in all which cases how shall a priuate man or a whole nation be infallibly assured of truth the Pope may erre he may erre definitiuely against a CouÌ„cell he may be an hereticke he may be resisted the Councell also may erre the faith may be indangered therefore men must try their reasons all this is confessed Where now is this iudge that my aduersary talkes of neither the Pope nor a Councell is it for men must follow them of the two that had the best reasons who shall iudge of their reasons the Christian people whom the cause concernes And by what can they iudge but by some thing distinct from both Councell and Pope and aboue them both which is the m So Occham GersoÌ„ Panorm The Diuines now of Venice and Paris in their tractats of this matter Scripture or nothing And for so much as no man can vnderstand the Scripture without Gods Spirit therefore in the case propounded our aduersaries must allow both Pope and Councell to be tried by priuate spirits as much as we do the teaching of the Church Let the most zealous and learned Papist that liues consider this and he shall perceiue that what we meane when we say The Scripture is the supreme rule and the true sense thereof is assured vnto vs lastly and authoratiuely by the Spirit of God themselues are driuen to hold as well as we Therefore whatsoeuer my aduersary hath rabbled together in his Introduct it is no more a circle in vs to proue our spirit by the Scripture and againe to be assured of the Scripture by the Spirit then it is in discourse to go too and fro betweene causes and effects But * See D. R. Field 2. part Append. p. 12. § 5. 6. where this point is shewed effectually it is himselfe and his owne Diuines that runne the round 3 Thirdly he saies that I needed not haue answered the reasons of his conclusion if the conclusion had not bene against our doctrine but this is idle for I answered the reasons because of that which the conclusion intended Good wordes especially with equiuocators may haue a bad purpose in which case the sense must be distinguisht and that which is false confuted 4 Fourthly he saies 2. things about my distinguishing of the word priuate For the vnderstanding whereof note that his conclusion being No priuate man perswading himselfe to be instructed by the Spirit can be the Rule of faith I answered that if he meant priuate when he sayes so often in the proces of his argument priuate spirits as it is opposed to diuine and spirituall he said well but vsing it in another sense as it is opposed to common and vsuall his conclusion was vntrue To this he replies first ô strange opposition but this he doth onely by the way because he would not loose a Parenthesis His head being so full of mentall reseruations that it makes his booke breake out all ouer into Parentheses as if it were full of the Measels for when particular men and priuate spirits do not erre by reason of their small number but by holding against that which is diuine and spirituall what such strange opposition is it to oppose the priuate spirit against the diuine Spirit of God and a priuate man against him that is spirituall In this sense No priuate mans spirit can be the rule if by priuate he meane not that which is not so common but that which is not diuine and spirituall But this is not worth the standing on his second exception is against the matter of the distinction For I said a priuate man may be so assisted by the holy Ghost that he may interpret Scripture truely and infallibly against a company as bigge as the Romane Church To this he replies denying my supposition that it is not to be thought the holy Ghost assists any that expoundes the Scripture contrary to the vniuersall Catholicke Church the which I thinke too and therefore this is not the point in question when we both agree but the point is whether these priuate men and spirits being expounded to be Luther such as he was with the Churches that cast off the Papacy this Catholicke and vniuersall Christian Church being expounded as it is by our aduersary to be the Papacy or Roman Church theÌ„ whether the priuate coÌ„pany may not haue Gods Spirit and the great company want it and so consequently the said priuate company be able to haue the truth against that which A. D. calles the Catholicke vniuersall Church for we affirme it Not by saying that Luther or any of our side had Gods Spirit or saw any truth which the true Church did not see but that they had and saw the the truth in the middest of the Church against the Papacy which now ridiculously is stiled the Catholicke vniuersall Church And therefore my aduersay and all of his side do but trifle away time in opposing the vniuersall Church against M. Luther vntill they haue proued the Papacy to be it and Luther with such as followed him no part of it For he resisted not the Catholicke Church but the Papacy in the Catholicke Church A. D. I do not deny but that a priuate man Pag. 196. supposing he were indeede assisted by the holy Ghost might interpret Scripture truely and infallibly against a company as bigge as the Romane Church supposing this company were not so assisted But herein consisteth the chiefe point of the question whether it be to be thought that the holy Ghost doth indeed or not assist one or some few priuate men who presuming that they are so assisted do interpret the holy Scripture in such sense as is contrary to the sense of the holy Catholike or vniuersall Christian Church whether it be Romane or not I do not now dispute this we shall see hereafter which as I shall proue is vndoubtedly knowne by the promises of Christ to haue the assistance of the holy Ghost This being the point in question my conclusion in this Chapter is that no priuate man pretending neuer so much to be spiritual or specially inspired is to be thought indeede inspired by the holy Ghost when he interpreteth Scripture as Luther and his like did in a sense contrary to the vnanime interpretation of the precedent and then liuing Pastours of the Catholicke Church and consequently it is not to be thought that the priuate spirit
is one thing it selfe that is beleeued the fore to be grounded on some superior authoritie Can loc l. ◠§. 8. D Weston layes the resolution of faith thus Our faith of any mystery is resolued into a former act wherby the Scripture containing this mystery is beleeued to be the word of God and this also is resolued into a former act as the cause thereof that the Church cannot erre Which we beleeue for the signes and notes which shew it to be a true Church Thus resoluing all diuine faith into humane motiues de Tripl offic c. 3. pag. 143. aduersaries themselues as I haue often shewed after all authoritie of Fathers Church Councels Pope and all do rest and resolue their faith vpon the second proposition of this Syllogisme I am taught this by Scripture our aduersaries denie not but Fathers Councels Popes may erre or if they cannot yet the authoritie of these things is not the reason of our faith for then faith should be humane but the inward authoritie of the Scripture and the Spirit of God If it be demanded how the Protestants can giue infallible assurance to others that they vnderstand the Scripture aright I answer that the same question is to be made to the Papists and both they and we must answer that vnlesse God illuminate their hearts we can giue no assurance neither they by the Church nor we by the Scripture but such as haue this illumination do see manifestly the truth of the things they haue beleeued But Luther he sayes held against the vniuersall Catholicke Church I answer and let all Papists well consider of it that they must proue this which I call the Papacie to be the vniuersall Catholicke Church afore they can say Luther was deceiued That they cannot proue but by the Scripture in which triall Luther shall retire to the Scripture no faster then themselues and then they may be deceiued as well as Luther in as much vnlesse they will runne in a round as all their other authoritie proofes and motiues must be tried by the Scriptures OVER WHICH GOD HATH SET NO VISIBLE IVDGE IN THIS WORLD THAT CAN INFALLIBLY CONVINCE AND PERSWADE ALL MEN. I wil make this plaine by laying downe the maner how Luther and how a Papist assures himselfe Luther and the Protestants for their part beleeue for example that a man is iustified by faith onely because the Scripture in plaine places excluding workes and proposing Gods free grace in Christ and maintaining the sole merits of Christ applied by faith debarres euery thing from iustifying that is in our selues and so teaches expresly that we are iustified onely by faith in Christ The Papists hold the contrary alledging the Church and the Pope whose doctrine they say it is that we are iustified by our workes But being demanded how we know infallibly that the Church or the Pope hath not erred in holding so they grant they may erre and answer that yet they are known not to erre in this point by the Scriptures which Scripture and the true sence thereof is knowne and beleeued for it selfe Here they are fallen into the same issue that the Protestants are I am taught this by the Scripture Now if they reply that we are infallibly assured the Scripture is meant as we say because the Church expounds it so who sees not that they make a circle thus to beleeue the Church first because of the Scripture and then againe to beleeue the Scripture because of the Church Their maine resolution therfore is the euidence and authoritie of the Scripture perswading them both that the doctrine is true and that the Church which teaches it is the true Church And so they lie open to the same cauils that are made against the Protestāts Luther in vnderstanding the Scripture may be deceiued so may they It is Luthers own cause so is this the Papists Luthers iudgment is to be suspected when he preferred himself before the iudgement of the Church The same say we to them They preferre their iudgement before the Church and all the Fathers in as much as we can shew the Church and Fathers to be against them and themselues professe that the Popes authoritie is aboue both Church and Fathers 2 Indeed if M. Luther had had a thousand Austins and Cyprians and other Fathers of the Church with one consent and plainly against him he had bin so much the more to be suspected for this is one maine thing that makes vs abhorre the present Roman Church because it prefers it selfe and the Popes determination before all the Doctors in the world but he neuer thought so nor said so His words are these in c Tom. 2. Wittemb pag 344. a booke that he writ against King Henry the 8. Lastly he produces the sayings of the Fathers for the establishing of the sacrifice of the Masse and sees my foolishnes who alone will be wiser then all other This is is it I say that by this my opinion is confirmed For this I said that these * His vnciuill speeches to the King himselfe afterward retracted Sleid. They are but a weak argumēt to discredit his reformation Lucifer Caralitanus his books against the Emperor Constantius are as bitter and violent If Luther offended against K. Harry the Iesuites and their supplies repay it to K. Iames and long since haue returned it with the interest to good Q. Elizabeth Thomisticall asses haue nothing to produce but a multitude of men and antique vse and then to him that brings the Scriptures to say Thou art the foolishest of all men that liue Art thou onely wise and then it must needs be so But to me who am the foolishest of all men it is sufficient that the most wise Henry can bring no Scripture against me nor answer that which is brought against him besides he is constrained to grant his Fathers haue often erred and his antique vse makes no article of faith in which it is lawfull but for the multitude of that Church to trust whereof he himselfe with his pardons is defender But against the saying of Fathers men Angels and diuels I oppose not ancient custome nor a multitude of men o This is that which the Fathers themselues aduise vnto when heresies haue long continued preuailed in the Church to flie to the Scriptures because the writings of the Fathers after the long continuance of heresie are in danger of corruption See Chrysost op imperf hom 49. sub init §. Tūo cum videritis abominationē Vincen. Lyrin cōmonit c. 39. but the word the Gospel of one eternal maiestie which themselues are constrained to allow wherein the Masse is euidently taught to be the signe and testament of God wherein he promises and by a signe certifies to vs his grace For this worke and word of God is not in our power here I set my foote here I sit here I abide here I glorie here I triumph here I insult ouer Papists Thomists Sophisters and
all the gates of hell not onely ouer the sayings of men though holy men or deceitful custom Gods word is ouer all The diuine Maiestie is of my side that I care not if a thousand Austins a thousand Cyprians a thousand King Harry-churches stood against me God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued Austin and Cyprian as all the elect may erre and haue erred In all these words there is nothing spoken simply against the Fathers but comparatiuely if a thousand Fathers were against the Scriptures he would rather stand to the Scripture wherein he speakes most godly and honestly that d Gal. 1. if an Apostle or an Angell from heauen farre greater then a thousand Austins and Cyprians should preach otherwise let him be accursed Neither Saint Paul nor Luther granted the Angels or Doctors of the Church to preach otherwise then they did but if any man would pretend and oppose their names and preaching against the Scripture let them be accursed the word of God is aboue all that I care not if a thousand Austins and a thousand Cyprians stood against me which is the truth and our aduersaries say as much themselues Baronius e An. 31. n. 213. Though the Fathers whom for their high learning we worthily call the Doctors of the Church were endued with the grace of the holy Ghost aboue others yet in expounding the Scripture the Catholicke Church doth not alway and in all things follow them D. Marta f De iurisdict part 1. pag. 273. The common opinion of the Doctors is not to be regarded when the contrary opinion fauours the power of the Popes keyes or a pious cause And I haue shewed g THE WAY digr 47. elsewhere that this is the common practise of our aduersaries They speake not alway so zealously and plainly as Luther doth but for substance they say the same that he doth h Yesterday Ecchius brought against me Gregory Ambrose Chrysostome to whom I then answered nothing I will therefore now say what I then forgot opposing the rule of diuine Augustine that the savings of all writers must be iudged by the sacred Scripture whose authoritie is greater then the authoritie of all men Not that I condemne the iudgement of the most illustrious Fathers but I imitate those that come nearest to the Scriptures and if the Scripture be plaine I embrace it before them all Tom. 1. disput Lips cum Ecch. pag 263. Wittemb I mention the opinion of Austin not to defame or detract froÌ„ that holy man but because it is good necessary that these holy Fathers be sometime found like our selues men that the glorie of God may stand firme c. Jâ— Genesc 21 pag. 255. tom 6. Wittemb who thought also as reuerently of the Fathers as any man is bound to do 3 But it was not Luthers going against the Fathers that discontented our aduersaries it was his resisting the Popes Canons and the faith of the Church of Rome which they shrowded vnder the name of the Fathers wherein by their owne diuinitie he might be guiltlesse Peraduenture i Dialog tract 2. part 2. c. vult pag. 180. col 3. edit Lugdun per Ioh. â—rech an 1494. saith Occham one might say that simple men ought to beleeue nothing but what the Pope and Cardinals deliuer to be beleeued explicately and should be content with things common not presuming vpon their owne vnderstanding to beleeue any thing explicitely but what the Pope and Cardinals deliuer vnto them but HE THAT SHOVLD AFFIRME THESE THINGS WERE AN INVENTOR OF NEW ERRORS For though simple men be not ordinarily tied to beleeue explicitely but onely those things which are by the Cleargie declared to be so beleeued yet SIMPLE MEN READING THE DIVINE SCRIPTVRE BY THE SHARPNES OF REASON MAY SEE SOME THING THAT THE POPE AND CARDINALS HAVE NOT DECLARED EVIDENTLY TO FOLLOW OF THE SCRIPTVRE in which case they can and must explicitely beleeue and ARE NOT BOVND TO CONSVLT WITH THE POPE AND CARDINALS FORASMVCH AS THEY ARE BOVND TO PREFERRE THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE BEFORE THEM ALL. If all the Papists in the world can shew Luther did any more then Occham here allowes euery simple man to do I am much deceiued And if he did no more then by their owne iudgements he might doe then away with these friuolous and emptie exclamations against Luther and let vs heare no more of them A. D. But saith M. White Scripture promiseth Pag 201. that euery doctrine is of God which consenteth to it and this consent a man may know infallibly or else in vaine had the Bereans searched c. I answer that I do not denie but a man may know doctrine to consent to Scripture but I aske how he may know this by onely Scripture interpreted by ones owne iudgment or priuate spirit I hope I haue shewed the contrary neither will M. White be euer able to proue that the 1 Act. 17.11 Beraeans had infallible certaintie onely by the Scripture interpreted by their owne priuate iudgement or that 2 Es 8.20 the Prophet sent any for infallible certaintie to the law and testimonie expounded onely by priuate iudgement or that 3 Luc 1 4. Saint Luke or f Col. 2.2 Saint Paul whom he alledgeth meant that men should haue infallible assurance by onely Scripture interpreted by priuate iudgement or spirit 4 I neuer intended that any man could haue infallible assurance of that he beleeues onely by Scripture interpreted by his owne priuate iudgement all that I affirme is that priuate men may examine any doctrine that is publickly taught by whosoeuer and by Scripture alone as by a certaine rule they may be assured of the truth This is plainly euinced by the texts alledged For the Beraeans hearing the Apostles preach yet searched the Scripture dayly whether those things were so and therefore beleeued In which example the matter examined is the things that the Apostles preached The rule whereby this was examined is the Scripture alone which in the text is distinguished from the Apostles preaching and ministery and authoritie and opposed against them for by it the Beraeans examined them The persons that did this were a priuate people subiect to the Pastors of the Church as much as any can be The end why they did thus examine the doctrine was to see if it consented with the Scripture The euent and issue of their examining was Therefore many of them beleeued Whereby it is cleare that a priuate man by the Scripture alone may be able to iudge of any thing that is publickly taught and by the Scripture alone be infallibly assured if he hold the truth Not the Scripture alone excluding the condition of the meanes whereby God makes the sense thereof knowne but the Scripture alone as the rule of faith excluding all authoritie of the Church and Pastors Nor the Scripture interpreted by a mans owne iudgement and priuate spirit but by it selfe truly according to the manifest rule
arbitrio legentis sic us quam veri ratio postulat deriuatur Vigil l. 2. pag. 553. contr â—utych 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Clem. Alexan. Strom. l. 7. pag. 322. edit Commelin ann 1592. which no hereticke may do The Papists alledge the Church So do the Greekes theirs the Armenians and Ethiopians theirs The Papists alledge the successions of their Popes so do the Greeks the succession of their Patriarks Chrysostome sayes r Op. imperâ— hom 49. pag 1101. All those things that belong to Christ in truth heresies may haue in schisme and in shew Churches Scriptures Bishops the orders of Cleargie men Baptisme the Eucharist and all things else The diuell also alledged Scripture but did he therefore giue ouer the Scripture No. But as Ierome Å¿ Comment in Math. 4. sayes The false darts of the diuell which he tooke out of the Scripture our Sauiour breakes with the true shield of the Scripture A Scripture ill cited t Concord c. 14 saith Iansenius he beateth backe with another Scripture truly alledged as it were one naile with another The Replier must therefore proue that they which alledge the Scripture or the Church or the Spirit of God against vs do it in like manner with as probable colour as wee alledge it for our selues But this cauill I answered in the WAY on the same page that my aduersarie quotes whereto he replies onely by repeating that I answered and so comes to railing 8 For hauing obiected that it is not Gods manner to teach men immediatly by himselfe but by the meanes of his Church and the Pastors therein I answered that these whom he cals priuate men had their knowledge by meanes of the Scripture truly taught in the Church but the Papacie was not this Church nor the Priests thereof those Pastors whom God had put into his Church To this he replies as you see that I am impudent and it is maruell his owne blacke face blushes not to vtter such a shamelesse vntruth Let him name if he can what Pastors those were that taught Luther and Caluin vnlesse he will allow the Diuell to be a Pastor whom Luther confesses to haue taught him his doctrine against the Masse I answer that the Pastors which taught Luther and Caluin their doctrine were of foure sorts First the blessed Apostles whose ministerie extends it selfe to all ages Next the Doctors and Pastors of the Primitiue Church and long after whose doctrine also in all substantiall points and namely in that wherein they forsooke the Papacie they stedfastly embraced when the Papacie had cast it off Thirdly the learned men whom God in many ages afterward raised vp to preach against the Papacie as it grew Such as were Bernard Wickliffe Husse the Waldenses and diuers others Fourthly many ordinary Pastours of the Church of Rome it selfe who being defiled with much of the Romish corruption yet in many things were sound and taught soundly the truth which truth such as Luther was might learne euen among Heretickes as S. Austin did a good exposition of Tyconius the Hereticke by the Scripture might be able to iudge betweene that they taught truly and that they taught otherwise u Refert Gabr. lect in can 57. h There were in the Church of Rome that taught pardons to be of no force to helpe soules in Purgatory * Durand 4. d. 20. qu 3. Caiet tract de indulg c. 1. p 211. b. that their vse is by no authority of the Scripture or Fathers diuers taught x Occh. Lyr. Hug. Dionys Turrecrem Picus Caietan whom see before the Apocrypha not to be Canonicall Gerson y Declarat compend defect eccl n. 67. complained of the abuse of images The same z Serm. de Natiu Mar. consid 2. Gerson a 3. part q. 68. art 1. 2. 11. Caietan taught that Infants vnbaptised might be saued b Sacramental pag. 30. Waldensis against the merit of workes c 2. d. 26. per tot Ariminensis against the power of nature and freewill d Lect. 4. in rom 3. lect 4. in Gal. 3. Aquinas for iustification by faith onely e De vit spiritual anim concl vnic Coroll 1. in 3. part operum Gers Paris 1606. Gerson that all sinne is against the law of God and none is veniall of it nature f Almain Occh. Gers Maior others to this day famously knowne The Sorbonistes of Paris taught against the Popes Monarchy the Greeke Church also held many things against the Papacy touching Priests mariage Purgatory c. There is no article of Luthers or Caluins doctrine but it was taught in the Church of Rome before them g Praef. in tom 2. operum Luther Melancthon sayes that he often heard Luther make report how an old man among the Austine Friars at Erford confirmed him in that opinion which is so much obiected to him touching speciall faith and he adds that before he stirred there were many in the Church of Rome which did inuocate God aright and held the doctrine of the Gospell some more some lesse such as was that old man who shewed Luther the doctrine of faith 9 That Luther confesses the Diuell to haue taught him the doctrine against the Masse is vntrue He onely reports how the Diuell in a spirituall h That it was no more will appeare to him that reads the whole discourse especially toward the latter end temptation to bring him to despaire accused him for saying Masse and the more to terrifie him layed many true reasons against the Masse before him whereby to let him see the foulenes thereof that so he might driue him to desperation as to bring any man to despaire of Gods mercy he vses ordinarily by true and effectuall reasons to accuse the sinne whereof he is guilty Not to perswade him to hate or leaue the sinne but to bring him to say with Cain My sinne is greater then can be forgiuen i An easie thing it were to obiect as much to the Iesuites touching their fellowes and Ignatius himselfe their founder but let God be iudge of these things Hasenmuller who spent much time among the Iesuites and was of their religion makes this report Turrian the Jesuite hath often told me that Ignatius Loiola both at meat and Masse and in his recreations vsed to be vexed with the Diuel that he should sweate as cold as one that were ready to die Bobadilla told him that he would oftentimes complaine that he could neuer be quiet for the Diuel molesting him Turrian said the Diuel was his daily companion euen to the altar where he vsed to say Masse c. Hasenmull hist Iesuit c. 11 pag. 427. We can giue them a bead-role of Popes that haue had familiarity with the Diuel more then this commed to I know how scurrilously our aduersaries obiect this of Luther but their malice armed with all the wit and skill they haue can neuer euince it to be otherwise then I
haue said A. D. Whereas I obiect that sectaries and the Diuell himselfe doth alledge words of Scripture Pag. 202. White pag. 64. M. White granteth it but saith he either they alledge not true Scripture or not truly applied as also they alledge the authority of the Church but either not the true Church or the true Church not truly Testimonium hoc verū est This which M. White granteth is the very truth and wanteth nothing but that he apply it to his priuate men Luther and Caluin and to his owne selfe Partiality will not suffer him to apply it thus but there is no reason that he should be iudge it is more fit that the iudgement of this matter be left to the Catholicke Church which he confesseth to be taught of God White pag. 63. 10 If my answer be true that when sectaries or the Diuell alledge Scripture or the Church they do it not truly let the Repliar giue ouer bragging and shew really that the Protestants haue not alledged these things truly And if it be no reason we be iudges our selues no more is it that the Pope and Papacy which k Nomine Ecclesiae intelligimus eius caput id est Romanum Pontificem Grego de Valent pag. 24. tom 3. Quod autem haec regula animata rationalis sit summus Pontifex non est hic locus proprius probandi Fra. Albertin Coroll p. 251. c. No maruell now though the Catholicke Church were so fast talked of he meanes by the Catholick Church be iudge but were it at that that we might haue a free Councell assembled and holden as Councels were of ancient time where the Pope and his faith might be tried as well as we it would soone appeare the Protestants haue not bene partiall in their cause when the late Trent Councell it selfe had come nearer vs then it did if it had not bene managed by Machiauellisme more then religion and the greatest tyranny and cosenage and villany vsed in it that euer stirred in any publicke busines CHAP. XXXIIII 1 The Papists pretending the Church haue a further meaning then the vulgar know 2 The Popes will is made the Churches act 3 Base traditions expounded to be diuine truth A. D. Concerning the tenth Chapter both my Aduersaries make maine opposition against the conclusion of this Chapter Pag. 202. one reason whereof is that they do not or will not rightly vnderstand what I meant when here I say the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith note therefore first whereas the name Church may be taken seuerall waies Intro q. 3. according to that which I noted in the Introduction whereas also in euery one of these senses it may be taken either as it is generally in all ages or as it is particularly in this or that determinate age my Aduersaries omitting all other senses principally vnderstand me to meane by the name Church the Pope or Pastours of this present age whereas in this Chapter I do not at least ex professo or primarily intend to speake of the Church in this sense but rather do speake of the Church in a more generall indefinite and indeterminate sense as it signifieth one or other companie of men liuing either in all ages or in one or other age who in one or other sense may be called the Church the doctrine whereof say I is the rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all sorts of men in all matters of faith Note secondly that by the doctrine of the Church I do not vnderstand any Friars dreames White pag. 3 as M. White dreameth nor humane traditions especially opposite to Scripture but diuine doctrine including therein both the written diuine Scripture and the vnwritten diuine traditions and the true diuine interpretation of them both as by word writing signes or otherwise it is or may be propounded and deliuered to vs by the authority of the Church all which although it may worthily be called diuine doctrine as being first reuealed by God here I call Church-doctrine because as it was first reuealed and committed to the keeping of Prophets and Apostles who in their time were chiefe and principall members of the militant Church so by Gods ordinance it was to be propounded and deliuered to other men by the same Prophets Apostles and others their successors as they are Doctors and Pastors of the same Church Note thirdly that by the rule of faith I meane such a rule as is also a sufficient outward meanes ordained and set apart by God to instruct all sorts of men in all points of faith which consequently must haue those three conditions or properties of the rule set downe and declared in the sixt Chapter viz that it must be infallible easie to be vnderstood of all sorts and vniuersall or such as may sufficiently resolue one in all points of faith Note fourthly that when I say the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith I do not vnderstand that the doctrine as seuered from the Church or the Church as diuided from the doctrine is the rule of saith but that the doctrine as deliuered by the Church or the Church as deliuering doctrine is that rule and meanes which God hath ordained to instruct men in faith Note fifthly that to proue the doctrine of the Church to be the rule of faith in such sort as now I haue said it might suffice for this Chapter that it be shewed that at least once or in one age there were one or other company of liuing men in one or other sense called the Church who were ordained by God and set apart to instruct all sorts of men in all points of faith being for that purpose in their doctrine and teaching furnished with these three conditions which are requisite in the rule of faith for this being shewed in this Chapter I shall easily shew in the next that the same is to be said of some or other company continuing in all ages In this Chapter therefore I chiefly vndertake to proue that once or in one age there was a company of liuing men who in one sense may be called the Church whom God specially appointed as a meanes sufficient quantū ex se to instruct all men in all matters of faith being for that purpose furnished with the three conditions or properties of the rule of faith 1 THe conclusion of this Chapter was that the infallible rule which we ought obediently to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching faith and beleefe of the true Church his meaning wherein he saies I would not or did not rightly vnderstand Let vs therefore see how I vnderstood it My answer was that we would freely grant this conclusion if the meaning were no more but that the doctrine and faith of the vniuersall Church is the rule of faith but there is a higher matter meant First that the Churches word and authority without grounding the same on the Scripture is the rule
Next that the Church of Rome is this vniuersall Church Thirdly that all the authority and efficacy of the Church is in the Pope alone And this to be the meaning I shewed in the 16. Digression whereto the Repiar hath wisely holden his tongue For it is the truth I said though he deny it for the odiousnesse and abhomination thereof For the question being What is the rule whereby all men at all times may be resolued in matters of faith he answers that the Church is it aske him againe what and which Church and he will answer The Romane Church in all ages past present and to come For a The WAY pag. 68. I shewed out of the Rhemists Bristo Posseuin and Baron that they admit no Catholicke Church but the Romane onely then aske him finally how a man may know which is the doctrine and teaching faith and beleefe of the Church and he will say againe as I shewed fully that WHAT THE POPE IVDICIALLY DETERMINES AND PROPOVNDS TO THE CHVRCH is it Did I therefore mistake when he said that by the Church he meant onely the Pope or was not himselfe rather vnable to defend the matter and therefore would auoid the very point of the question Did I not alleadge 9. Papists that all say the whole power and faculty of the Church is in the Pope Are not Gregory of Valenzaes b Pag. 24. tom 3. edit Venet. per Zal er an 1598 words plaine In this question by the Church we meant the Romane Bishops In whom resides the full authoritie of the Church when heple ases to determine matters of faith whether he do it with a Councell er without c Albertine a Iesuite sayes it expressely and in Terminis termâ—nantibus I say that besides the first verity there is an infallible rule liuing and indued with reason such as is the Church and this rule liuing and indued with reason is the chiefe Bishop of Rome this is no place to proue but you may see Valence Bell. Medina I say thirdly all the articles of our faith are lastly resolued into this rule tanquamin formalem rationem qua in proponendo Coral p. 251. edit Lugdun an 1610. apud Horat. Cardon Desiniendo arctat nos ad credendum prout ipse definiuerit Coquae exam p. 305. edit Friburg 1610. I say therefore againe that the Repliars Conclusion hath no other meaning then this The infallible rule which we ought obediently to follow is the doctrine and faith of THE POPE ALONE So himselfe writ in his d In the WAY §. 36. Treatise All Catholicke men must necessarily submit their iudgements and opinions either in expounding the Scripture or otherwise to the censure of the Apostolicke seate and God hath bound his Church to heare the chiefe Pastors in all things And all the places of Scripture that are vsed for the authoritie of the Church they applie and expound of the Pope To thee I will giue the keyes on this rock I will build Feede my sheepe c. Let vs see therefore in his next Reply how he will releeue himselfe That is meant by the Church whereto the chiefe promises made to the Church belong wherein the whole power of the Church resides whereby the Church it selfe is directed where the Church determinations begin But the Pope is he whereto the chiefe c. Ergo the Pope is meant by the Church 2 Neuerthelesse not answering these things when I obiected them he notes fiue things for the vnderstanding of his conclusion Which I answer in order To the first I grant our aduersaries distinguish the name of the Church into diuers senses by that distinguishing to gull the world but in this question when they say the teaching of the Church is the Rule they alway meane it of the Pope And the Repliar speakes vntruely that in his conclusion be meanes not the Pope but a company of men For either the company must first be taught by the Pope or else the Pope must be the mouth of that company Besides e Pag. 75. in his Introduction whither he referres himselfe hauing said that the name Church may be taken 4 waies either for the whole company of Christian professors consisting of sheepe and Pastors or for the more principall part to wit the whole company of Pastors either gathered together in a Councell or dispersed through the world or for Christs Vicar the Pope as he hath most ample authority either alone or with a Councell to propound the doctrine of faith or for euery particular Pastor as he is authorized vnder the Pope to feede the flocke committed to him he concludes that when he saies Church proposition is necessary it is not needfull for him to distinguish which of these waies he takes it because we the Protestants deny any such infallible authority to be in the Church at all in which sense soeuer he take it whereby it is plaine that he was ashamed to name in which sense he takes the Church For albeit we deny that which he cals the infallible authoritie of his Church all supreme and vnerring authoritie being in the Scripture alone yet the constant and certaine doctrine of the Church taken in the two first senses we allow to be the rule of faith because it is onely the contents of the Scripture as f The WAY § 13. n. 1. I answered to his conclusion but that he means the Church in the third sense alone appeares by this also that it is a principle among the Iesuits that the Church in the first second and fourth sense may erre and if at any time it do not it is through the guiding of the Pope who is the Church in the third sense Gregory of Valenza g In Tho. 22. tom 3. p. 247. d saies we must not distinguish betweene the Romane Church and the Romane Bishop so as if the iudgement of the Roman Church were infallible but not the iudgement of the Romane Bishop but rather these two are one and the same For THEREFORE THE APOSTOLICKE OR ROMANE CHVRCH IS SAID TO BE INFALLIBLE BECAVSE HE IS OVER IT WHO BY HIMSELFE HATH INFALLIBLE AVTHORITY Canus saies h Loc l. 6. c. 8. sub init when we come to the Apostolicke Sea to enquire the oracles of faith we do not enquire of all the faithfull in the Romane Church nor yet of the same Church assembled in a Councell see here the Church reiected in the first second and fourth senses but the Popes iudgement and sentence is it we exspect This is that I said that by the Church they meane THE POPE then he addes a reason which according to their former principles conuinces this that the firmenesse and certainety of truth must be auouched in Peter and his successors and then after in the Church whose head and foundation Peter is and therefore the more do I reprehend those which as the Repliar here by distinguishing the Apostolicke seate from the Pope thinke to ende the controuersie
My aduersarie therefore maintaining the doctrine of the Church to be the rule of faith * Suarez the Iesuit shames not to tell the king of England in his late writing against him that The authoritie of the Trent Councell which all the world knowes was mooued by the Pope in the same manner that Puppet motions are mooued by such as shew them is the authoritie of the vniuersall Catholicke Church Defens fid Cathol adu Angl. sect lib. 1. c. 9. nu 7. meanes nothing by the Church but THE POPE HIMSELFE and they that yeeld themselues to be led by the Romane Church must depend solely vpon his will and word 3 To the second this diuine doctrine of the Church which the Repliar saies is the rule of our faith is by himselfe expounded to include not onely the written Scripture but vnwritten traditions also and such decrees and interpretations both of Scripture and tradition as the Pope shall reueale and propound hence it followes that any Friars dreame may be thrust vpon vs as an article of faith necessary to saluation because these traditions and interpretations and this authoritie of the Pope containe many such dreames that is to say the Pope and his Church vnder pretence that they are diuine traditions and all power to propose matters of faith belongs to him may and doth require vs to beleeue lyes and errors and albeit the Iesuite affirme these traditions and interpretations of his Church to be reuealed by God to the Apostles and their successors the Doctors and Pastors of the Church as part of that diuine and Church doctrine which he would haue receaued o Pari pietatis affectu ac reuerentia suscipit veneratur Conc. Trid. sess 4. with the same obedience and affection wherewith we receaue the Scripture yet this is false For the whole obiect of our faith is contained in the Scripture alone as I shewed in the third Digression and because he denies that any such dreames can be contained in the doctrine of his Church thus I reason For whatsoeuer the Pope shall definitiuely propound to be beleeued that is the doctrine of the Church But he may definitiuely propound the very dreames of a Friar this I proue The bookes of i Baro. an 159. n 4. ind expurg Hispa p. 149. d. 15. Sanct. Romana Hermes and k Phot. Biblioth p. 156. edit Graec. Haschel Balâ—am respon p. 363 in Iure Graeco Rom. tom 1. Zâ—onar in Apost can vlt. Perer. Ioh. 13. disp 30. Clemens Constitutions are Apochryphall counterfet and vnsound writings but D. Stapleton l Hos similes libros in canoneÌ„ sacrae Scripturae si praesens Ecclesia referret nulla ratio obstat quin eos pro Canonicis admittere debeamus Relect. pag. 514. saies he may put these bookes into the Canon of the Bible and so binde men to beleeue them by diuine faith therefore he may define and make to be matter of faith that which is vnsound and no better then a dreame Againe Canus and Caietan m Refert Fra. Suar. tom 2. p. 30. a. affirme the opinion of the virgine Maries conception without sinne to be godly and probable in shew but false and vncertaine indeede Yet n Suar. ibi Vas qu. in 3. part Tho. to 2. p. 45. the Iesuits say the Pope may define it when he will Thirdly o Grego Val. analys fid pag. 325. they hold the authority of the Church in defining to be in the Pope who may determine the things of faith whether he vse care and diligence therin or not but he that defines without any care taking or diligeÌ„ce vsed may chance specially if he be a Friar p To the number of 52. Azor institut moral tom 2. l. 5. c 44. as many Popes are to thrust his Friars dreames vpon the Church Fourthly the Canon law q Gl Marg. c quanto de translatione sayes He may make something of nothing and make that a sentence which is none Lastly r Suar vbi sup the Iesuites hold that a supernaturall truth may be so implicitely contained in tradition or Scripture that * Canisius reports that in Paris in the Vniuersities of Spaine and elsewhere no man is admitted to any degree in diuinitie vnlesse he sweare that he will hold the Immaculate conception of the virgine Marial lib. 1. c. 7. Such trickes as this will make this consent swell and increase as fast as the mountaine the common consent of the Church increasing whereby oftentimes the Holy Ghost expounds traditions and Scriptures the Church may at last bring in her definition which shall haue the force of a reuelation The two doores of sleepe Å¿ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hom. Odiss Ï„. mentioned so much in the Poets let not in more dreames then this doctrine doth lyes heresies into the world for whensoeuer the Church of Rome will bring in a new doctrine the implicite traditions and the increase of the Churches consent may be pretended 4 * Ad. 3. To the third he notes no more But what he said in his treatise and I granted in such sense as I layed downe in my answer And this noting it againe is needles and impertinent to the matter in hand which is not touching the quality but the quiddity of the rule 5 * Ad. 4. To the fourth we know well enough that the Church and the doctrine go together but it is false that the Church as deliuering doctrine is the rule For the doctrine is the rule and the Church that which teaches both vs and it selfe according to it as the Iudge expounding and executing the law is not the rule together with the law but the law is the rule it selfe and the iudge is the kings officer to apply it but hauing no authority ouer or beside it And yet allowing the contrary and all that the Repliar sayes still in his conceite the Pope with his definitions shall be this Church and this doctrine which he thus conioynes to be the rule 6 To the fift to proue the doctrine of the Church to be the rule of saith in such sort as the Repliar hath said Ad. 5. it is not sufficieÌ„t to shew that at least once or in some one age there hath bene a company of men called the Church in one sense or other ordained by God and furnisht with conditions to teach men the faith for the Repliar hath said that the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith in such sort as it includes not onely the written Scriptures but vnwritten traditions and the interpretation of them both by Church authority Where two things are affirmed first that vnwritten traditions are part of the doctrine that is the rule Secondly that our faith is built t Non quid dicatur sed quis dicat attendendum Staplet Princ. pag. 364. Relect. p. 429. on the authority of the Church Neither of these is proued by shewing that which is
should be iudged Pag 210. A. D. Thus therefore we see that those texts which I alledge do not onely pertaine to the Apostles and men liuing in that age as my Aduersaries ignorantly White pag. 72. 73 74. and absurdly make answer to some of the texts but that they pertaine also to men liuing in other ages and consequently as my reason drawne out of them proueth infallibility and other conditions requisite in the rule and meanes to be in the Apostles doctrine so it proueth also infallibility and the said other conditions in the doctrine of succeeding Pastours 5 The texts alledged were these Math. 28 20. Ioh. 14.16 and the 16.13 Math. 28.19 Luc. 10.16 The thing he would proue by them was that the doctrine of the Church is infallible which conclusion in a good sense u §. 13. n. 1. §. 14 n. 2. in the WAY by me set downe I granted But when he meant it otherwise * Ecclesia docere potest aliquid extra praeter verbum scriptum D. Staplet relect p. 431 Eius doctrina quoque est infallibilis pag. 463. according to the doctrine of Rome that the Church can erre in nothing it teaches albeit it teach that which is not in the Scripture I answered the texts he brought out of the Scripture and to these foure I said that they belonged either onely or properly to the Apostles I answered them sufficiently otherwise all which the Repliar here conceals if they were applied to the whole Church but that also was one part of my answer Therefore here he replies that ignorantly and absurdly I make answer because they belong to the Church Pastours in all ages as he hath shewed Yet x The same word may be applied in the Apostle◠and to the succeeding Pastors so far foorth as to proue the substance of the thing signified to agree to both although in circumstance of measure manner or degree there be great difference A. D. Reply p. 208. 217. his owne confession is that this is onely secondarily or by consequence but primarily and principally they pertaine to the Apostles which is as much as I said For I do not so restraine them to the Apostles but that I allow part of the sense therein contained to concerne the Church and therefore I answered them also otherwise whereto the Repliar replies neuer a word And if they had proued the infallibility of his Church so pregnantly let him giue ouer his confidence and tell vs how then comes it to passe that so many in his owne Church hold some that y Occh. dial part 1. l 5. c. 25. Turtecrem sum de eccl l. 3. c. 58. concl 2. Caiet apol part 2. c. 21. Councels some that z Mic. Cezen lit ad Imperat. c. vlt. Hadrian 4. p. 26. Alphons l. 1 c. 4 Onus eccl c. 15. n. 34. the Pope himselfe may erre and let him not talke of erring definitiuely and è Cathedra for that distinction is in none of the texts alledged The priuiledge of not erring is by no words thereof tied to the chaire but that which is promised is tied to the persons So that the persons of these Pastors not being made infallible by these texts it followes that no such infallibility at all as the Repliar dreames of is giuen them therein A. D. As by the promise of Christ we be assured that the Apostles Pag. 214. and consequently in some sense the Pastours of the Church are taught all truth by the Holy Ghost so by the commission warrant commandement and threat ioyntly considered as here I consider them we are assured that the same Holy Ghost doth so assist them as not to permit either the Apostles or the Pastours vniuersally to teach authoratiuely false doctrine or their owne deuices in regard otherwise men should be bound sometimes to beleeue false doctrine which inconuenience cannot be auoided by saying as M. White saith White pag. 75. that the band hath a limitation that we heare them so farre as they teach agreeable to Scripture and no further and by those Scriptures we may releeue our selues if they chance to teach falsely Because first that conditionall limitation is no where expressed nor in M. Whites sense to be necessarily gathered out of any place of Scripture Secondly I aske how those should releeue themselues who cannot reade much lesse vnderstand Scripture 6 The limitation whereof I spake that we heare the Pastors of the Church NO FVRTHER THEN THEY TEACH AGREEABLE TO THE SCRIPTVRE is expressed and necessarily gathered out of Scripture euen in M. Whites sence For the Scripture bids a 1. Th. 5.21 trie all things and hold that which is good And b 1 Ioh. 4.1 beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God And that we may know the Scripture alone is the rule whereby this triall must be made it sayes againe c 2. Pet. 1.19 We haue a more sure word of the Prophets whereto we do well to take heede as to a light that shines in the darke till the day dawne and the day star rise in our hearts d Ioh. 5.39 And search the Scriptures for in them we thinke to haue eternall life and they be they that testifie of Christ And the mē of Beraea e Act. 17.11 searched the Scriptures daily whether those things which the Apostles preached were so There were nothing more harsh then these speeches of the Holy Ghost if the Scripture were not allowed and appointed as a sufficient and the last outward meanes to preserue the faithfull from false teaching And as I haue often heretofore affirmed the Papists themselues cannot auoid this limitation For the Pope and Councels and particular Pastors may all erre and teach false Adrian that himselfe was a Pope and therefore best knew what belongs to Popes f Vbi sup sayes It is certaine the Pope may erre euen in such things as touch the faith auouching heresie by his determination or decree Touching Councels not confirmed by the Pope Azorius the Iesuite g Azo instit moral tom 2. l. 5. c. 12. sayes All Catholickes are agreed that they may erre touching particular Pastors and Bishops Waldensis h Doctrinal fid l. 2. c. 19. sayes we know that all these both Cleargy and Prelates of the Church haue often erred If all these may erre then it followes that their teaching must be examined accepted with this limitation if it consent with the Scripture Gerson i De exam doctr part 1. confid 5. tom 1. saies Euery man sufficiently learned in the Scriptures is an examiner of doctrines put case there be a simple man not authorised excellently seene in holy writ then in the point of doctrine his assertion is more to be beleeued then the Popes declaration For it is plaine the Gospell is more to be beleeued then the Pope if therefore such a learned man teach any verity to be contained in the
Gospell where the Pope is ignorant or erres it is manifest whose iudgement is to be preferred and in this case such a learned man if he were present at a generall Councell should oppose himselfe against it if he perceiued the maior part through malice or ignorance to go against the Gospell Occham k Occh. Dial. p 180. affirmes that THE POPE AND CARDINALS ARE NOT THE RVLE OF OVR FAITH because though a Catholicke Pope and Catholicke Cardinals ought to be the teachers of faith so that the faithfull should firmely beleeue whatsoeuer they teach and define according to the rule of faith yet if they presume to teach or dâ—fine any thing contrary to the rule of faith which the holy Scripture teaches then Catholickes are not to follow but reproue them These men affirme all things that I say First that the Scripture is the rule of faith Secondly that the Pope with his Councels and Cardinals may erre Thirdly that they may erre in faith and teach erroniously Fourthly that their teaching may be examined Fifthly that euen by priuate men Sixthly the Scripture being the rule whereby Seuenthly vpon which examination their teaching may be refused This is the limitation that I mentioned Let the Repliar and all of his minde open their eyes and confesse we hold nothing but that which the learnedst in his owne Church allow and teach His second exception How shall they relieue themselues who cannot reade nor vnderstand the Scripture l §. 7. pag. 30. I answered in the WAY whereto my aduersary hauing nothing to reply according to his Methode onely repeates his cauill againe but it doth him no good For such as cannot reade yet may heare them read or preached and propounded by others it being sufficient that they haue the knowledge of the Scriptures any way which are so plaine and easie in all things belonging to the substance of faith that as I haue shewed m Gregory the B. of Rome speaking of an vnlearned man saies Nequaquam literas nouerat sed Scripturae sacrae sibi met codices emerat religioso quosque in hospitalitatem suscipiens hos coraÌ„ se studiose legere faciebat Factum est vt iuxta modum suum plene sacram Scripturum disceret cum siâ—ut dixi literas funditus ignoraret Dial. l. 4. c. 14. ibi Graec. Zachar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the simplest that are hauing the assistance of Gods Spirit to enlighten them which assistance is not tyed to the presense of the Church as my aduersary cauilles may vnderstand them And to omit the words of the Scripture it selfe which the Repliar and his complices despise and reuile let him say directly whether the Ancient Church taught not thus S. Austine n Epist 3. The Scripture like a familiar friend speakes those plaine things which it containes to the heart of learned and vnlearned Chrysostome o Hom. 1 in Matth. The Scriptures are easie to vnderstand and exposed to the capacity of euery seruant Plowman widow boy and him that is most vnwise Cyrill Alexand p Contr. Iulian. pag. 160. The Scripture that it might be knowne to all men as well small as great are profitably commended to vs in a familiar speech so that they exceede the capacity of no man Isidore Pelusiota q l 2. ep 5. Forasmuch as God gaue lawes to weake men and such as need plaine words therefore he tempered his heauenly doctrine * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with rude words fit for the simple That euery woman and child and the vnlearnedst among mortall men by THE VERY HEARING IT SELFE might get some good r Sixt. Senens Biblioth l 6. annot 152. §. quod autem Grego Valent. 22. pag. 118. §. iam quae Diuers of the learnedst of our aduersaries grant this to be true in that part of the Scripture which containes the principles of faith and the things that all men generally are bound to beleeue which is sufficient to vphold that I say for I will easily allow great obscurity to be in much of the rest according to that which Å¿ Act. 8.31 2. Pet. 3.16 the Scripture and t Basil de fid p. 394. Iren. l. 2. c. 47. August ep 3. the Fathers oftentimes obserue but the rule of faith contained in euident places will preserue the vnlearned from erring therein perniciously A.D. By which explication is answered that which M. White saith is vnanswerable Pag. 220. White p 76. to wit If we must not accept euery doctrine taught by Pastours then there must be another rule by which we must be directed in hearing For it is not necessary to admit another rule distinct from the doctrine of Pastours but it sufficeth that we can distinguish in this rule two distinct manners of teaching the one priuate and without authoritie which we are not bound to accept the other publike and with authority which we may not reiect in any point 7 To the text of Mathew 23.2 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chaire c. I answered u The WAY pag. 75. that our Sauiour bindes vs not to heare the Pastours of the Church further then they teach according to the truth This exposition I confirmed by the testimonies of * Fer. in Matth. l. 3 c. 23. Can. Loc. l. 5. c. 4 Iansen concord c. 120. Em. Sa. notat Mat. 23. 4. Papists to whom here I adde a fift Pope Adrian x Hadria quodl 6. art 2. p. 38. we are tyed to obey them in such things as they teach according to Moses chaire Hence I said it followes vnanswerably that there is another rule whereby I may be directed in hearing For else how should a man be able to distinguish those points wherein he must follow his teachers from those wherein he must not And indeed this reason is vnanswerable For if our Sauiour hath bound me to heare them that sit in Moses chaire no further then they teach true doctrine according to the chaire it must necessarily be said that there is some rule distinct from their teaching whereby I may infallibly discerne if they teach falsely against the chaire But the Reply sayes this needs not it being sufficient that we can distinguish two manners of teaching the one Priuate and without authority which we are not bound to accept the other publicke and with authoritie which we may not reiect in any point But for the making of this distinction it needes that there be a rule for though it be sufficient thus to distinguish that is to say by discerning and iudging betweene that which is taught by publicke and that which is taught by priuate authoritie a man may sufficiently guide himselfe in following his Pastors yet how shall I distinguish this which way shall I know the publicke teaching from the priuate without A RVLE Say plainely what is the RVLE to discerne that doctrine which is taught without authority from that which is taught with authoritie and if there be
such a rule say againe whether it be not something distinct from the teaching and authority of the teachers for so much as that wherby the teaching and authority is discerned and tried cannot be confounded with the teaching and if there be such a distinct rule what can it be but the Scripture which onely is the thing that all Church teaching must agree with Thus therefore I reason ad hominem In the doctrine taught by the Pastours of the Church it sufficeth that I can distinguish the priuate from the publicke that which is taught with authority from that which is without authority Therefore I MAY yea must thus distinguish I may DISTINGVISH therefore I may EXAMINE for by examining things we distinguish them We may examine therefore we must haue a RVLE whereby we do it we must haue a rule therefore it must either be the Scripture or the teaching it selfe of the Church that is examined for a third cannot be giuen But it cannot be the teaching of the Church for that is the thing it selfe examined It must of necessity therefore be the SCRIPTVRE ALONE And for so much as it belongs to euery priuate man thus to distinguish therefore it is true also that I said Euery priuate man inlightned with Gods grace which must alway be supposed and our aduersaries necessarily require it may be able to guide himselfe and to discerne of the Church teaching by the SCRIPTVRE Pag. 223. 1 Tim. 3. v 15. Wootton pag. 154. White p. 80. A. D. Wherefore it is not without cause that S. Paule called the Church the pillar and ground of truth not onely as my aduersaries expound that truth is found in it or fastened to it as a paper is fastened to Pasquin in Rome which is M. Whites grosse similitude but also in that it selfe is free from all error in faith and Religion and is to vs a sure although a secondary foundation of faith in that it doth truely yea infallibly propound to vs what is and what is not to be beleeued by faith it being therefore vnto vs a pillar and stay to leane vnto in all doubts of doctrine and an assured ground or establishment of verity whereupon we may securely stand against all heresies and errors It is not also without cause that S. Augustine said whosoeuer is afraid to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church signifying that to require the iudgement of the Church is a good meanes to preserue one from being deceaued not onely as M. Wootton expoundeth in that particular question which there S. Augustine mentioneth and such like of lesser moment and much lesse doth he meane as M. White minceth the matter to wit in that particular question at this time but also and that à fortiori in other questions of greatest weight and most concerning saluation and at other times c. 8 I find 2. faults in this place with the Repliar 1. that he doth not report the whole expositions that I gaue to these places but onely part of them and yet tels me of mincing Next that hauing confirmed my exposition of the wordes of the Apostle by foure reasons and my exposition of Saint Austine by as many and hauing confuted his sense that here he repeates by manifest arguments he stands dumbe to all and onely repeates the places againe no otherwise then when I answered them I need not therefore trouble my selfe with confuting him here but referre * THE WAY §. 15. me to that I writ much accusing my selfe for medling with so base a trifler that hath neither heart nor strength to go forward in the argument nor wit nor grace to hold his tongue this one passage is the liuely image not onely of all this his Reply but of all his fellowes writings now in request to bring in authority of Scripture and Fathers as a Bride is led into the Church with state and ceremony and some grauity and furniture of words but when they should reply to that we answer and maintaine their expositions then to tergiuerfate and onely repeate that which is confuted CHAP. XXXVI An entrance into the question touching the visibility of the Protestant Church in the former ages Wherein it is briefly shewed where and in whom it was A. D. Concerning the eleuenth Chapter Hauing proued in the precedent Chapter that the doctrine of the Church is the rule Pag. 227. and meanes to instruct all men in faith in this Chapter I vndertake to shew that the Church whose doctrine is the rule and meanes White pag. 86. Wootton p. 104 White pag. 86. continueth in all ages Both my Aduersaries grant that the Church continueth in all ages M. White saith We confesse the Church neuer coased to be but continueth alwaies without interruption to the worlds end M. Wootton saith the truth of your assertion needeth no proofe and findeth great fault with me for making such a question as though Protestants did deny the Church to continue As concerning this their granting the continuance of the Church I gratefully accept it especially with M. Whites addition who yeeldeth that if we can proue that the very faith which Protestants now confesse hath not * If Protestants faith so far as they differ from vs continued alwaies I aske whether in the aire or in some faithfull men if in men who be those men successiuely continued in all ages since Christ or that it was interrupted so much as one yeare moneth or day it is sufficient to proue them no part of Gods Church For which he citeth in the Margent Dan. 7. ver 27. Psal 102. v. 26. Mat. 16.18 Luk. 1 v. 33. 1 AS no Protestant denies the doctrine of the Church to be the rule taking the Church for a So Waldens doctrinal tom 1. l. 2. c. 19. Haec est Ecclesia Symbolica Ecclesia Christi Catholica Apostolica mater credentiū per totum mundum dispersae à Baptismo Christi per Apostolos ceteros successores eorum ad haec tempora deuoluta quae vtique veram fidem continent c. pag. 99. the whole company of beleeuers which haue bene from Christ to this day so neither do they deny this Church to continue in all ages the which because I granted the Repliar in my answer to his booke you see how he ioyes in himselfe as if he had wonne the cause touching his visiblenesse of the Church But as I noted to him the question is not whether the Church continue in all ages to the worlds end for that we grant but whether the outward state thereof free from all corruption be alway so visible as the Papists say I shewed the Negatiue and in the 17. Digression made it plaine that our Aduersaries themselues cannot deny it the Repliar therefore in this place was to quit his owne D. D. whom I alledged and not to stand gratefully accepting that which no man denies The marginall question is
Papists in the world euer proue it yet without it thâ—â—rott aboue ground a 2. Sa. 13. as Amnon would die if he lay not with his sister Thamar A. D. That we may therefore be incouraged to seeke in such sort Pag. 235. as we may finde that finding we may duely follow the teaching of the true Church in this Chapter I inquire in generall whether the Church whose teaching we ought to follow in all matters of faith be alwaies visible that is such as may be seene or by seeking found or sometimes inuisible that is such as cannot be seene nor by seeking found Before I proceede to relate my aduersaries answer I must cleare the state of the question M. Wootton first would make the question to be whether the Church spoken of in the Creed be visible or invisible M. White saies that this is not the question in this place but saith he the question of the Church militant which containeth as part of it euen euill men and hypocrites The truth is that to speake precisely I make not the question either of these waies For although it be true that the same Church which I speake of be the Church or part of the Church spoken of in the Creed although also it be the Church militant or part of the Church militant containing as part of it all professours good and bad in regard I hold as all good Christians should that there is but one Church yet that I may cut off occasions of cauill I will not now dispute what is meant by the word Church as it is in the Creed or whether the Church militant be that Church which I say is visible I onely aske whether the Church of which I spake in the two precedent Chapters whose doctrine is there proued by diuers places of Scriptures to be in all ages the Rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all men in all matters of faith whether I say this Church be in all ages visible or sometimes inuisible Now taking the Church in this sense yet my aduersary M. White White p. 86. Pag. 9. peruerteth the state of my question for he will needes haue me meane by a visible Church a company alwayes so illustrious as it not onely may be but actually is knowne to all men liuing at all times But so I did not here make my question for I know well enough that the Church hath not alwaies especially in time of persecutions such outward worldly prosperous estate I know also that sometimes the Church is obscured as S. Augustine saith with multitude of scandals and therefore it is not alwaies alike famous and illustrious especially so as to shine actually through the whole world My question therefore onely is whether the true Church WHOSE DOCTRINE IS THE RVLE and meanes ordained by God to instruct men of all ages in faith be sometimes quite inuisible in such sort that no member thereof can be seene nor assigned or that it is alwaies visible that is to say such as containeth in it alwaies euen in the times of greatest obscurity at least some eminent professors who either are actually knowne or may in particular be assigned to all such as 〈◊〉 to know theÌ„ that they may learne of them the true doctrine of faith as grace sufficient being presupposed all men in potentia proxima vel remota may and ought to learne 2 For the better vnderstanding of that which insues from this place forward to the ende touching the visiblenesse of the Church the Reader must note that my aduersary hauing in his Treatise concluded that not the Scripture but the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith now proceeded to enquire which this Church is and where it is to be found And first he answered categorically that it is visible and may be found then afterward he shewed where and how and by what markes it may be found In the 17. § he began to intreate of the visiblenesse of the Church affirming that it must needes alwaies be from Christs time to the ende of the world and being it must needes be alwaies visible vrging such reasons as he had to proue it and among the rest this was his last a §. 22. in the WAIE The onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or at least of the good but this is a false ground for it is euident that the Church militant consisteth of good and bad c. Whereto b Ibi. I answered that this was not our reason nor indeed could be for that in this question we speake not of the vniuersall Church comprehending none but the elect of all times and ages but of the Church for the time being wherin the true faith is remaining which Church containes hypocrites also and euill men as well as good Wherein I spake effectually for his owne words are that the question is of the militant Church And when our doctrine is that the militant Church consists of wicked reprobates as well as elect how can we make it a ground to proue it inuisible sometime because it consists onely of the elect Neuerthelesse in this place you see he complaines of my peruerting the state of the question and denies that he meant it as I tooke it Let vs therefore see what he requires and if his meaning be mistaken good reason he explaine himselfe and the difference betweene vs be agreed vpon 3 First he saies that he enquires in generall not whether the Church mentioned in the Creed or whether the militant Church be visible but whether that Church whose teaching we ought to follow be alwaies visible that is such as may be seene or by seeking found And I also said * In what sense the militant Church is by the Protestant Diuines said to be sometime inuisible the question is onely of the outward state of the Church whether it be alway visible to the world or not that in euery age those congregations may euidently be discerned and pointed too which are the true Church Not affirming the true outward militant Church at any time hitherto to haue bin inuisible for the visible Churches of Greece Ethiope Armenia and Rome with the nations contained therein haue in them the true Church of God wherein men may be saued but onely intending that there is not alway in this Church a visible company and state of people deuided from the rest that professe the true faith and exercize Church gouernement in all things free from the corruptions and abuses of such as haue defiled the Church And thus I neuer denied the Church of Rome to be the visible Church of God wherein our Auncestors possessed the true faith and were saued but I constantly deny the PAPACY to be it or the ARTICLES wherein we refuse the Church of Rome to be the faith thereof and affirme the same to be a Leprosie breeding in the
Church so vniuersally that there was no visible companie of people appearing to the world free from it and whether any company at all knowne or vnknowne were free from it wholy or not I neither determine nor greatly care All that I hold touching the inuisible Church being that the true Church being ouergrowne with heresie and corruption there hath not at all times bene therein a distinct company to be seene which in all points were free from the corruption though there may be shewed a company that held all the substantiall points simply necessary to saluation Had the Iesuite vnderstood my words in this sense which I often declared all ouer my Booke he would neuer haue trifled away time in prouing the Church whose doctrine is the rule to be visible which I deny not but he would haue gone roundly to worke in shewing the visible Church to be neuer so corrupted but there is some one or more speciall companies therein visibly to be seene by all and separated from the rest that is not defiled with the corruption For the Church is visible to be seene at all time more or lesse whose teaching in the sound part thereof is to be followed to the worlds ende Neuerthelesse first he excepts that I say the question is of the Church militant containing as part of it euill men and hypocrites whereas to speake precisely he makes not the Question that way but to cut off occasions of cauill he saies he desputes whether the Church whereof he spake in the precedent Chapters whose doctrin in all ages is the rule of faith whether I say this Church be in all ages visible or sometimes inuisible as if the Church whose doctrine is the rule in all ages were any other then the militant His conclusions whereby he taught his friend how to resolue himselfe in religion were these That there is a rule left by God whereby all men may be instructed This rule is not the Scripture but the doctrin of the true Church which Church is alway visible that all men at all times may see it wherein he affirmes as I do the militant Church to be visible because that onely is it that mortall men can heare and haue accesse to and this I shew distinctly to be the question For first his owne expresse words are c In THE WAY pag 99. It is euident that the Church militant consists of good and bad but this Church consisting of good and bad is the same that before in his conclusion he affirmed to be visible confuting our supposed ground wherupon we held it inuisible Secondly in this very passage he sayes it is true that the same Church he speakes of is the Church militant or part of it Thirdly he expounds himselfe to meane that Church whose doctrine is the rule to teach vs. But the doctrine of no Church teaches vs but that of the Militant liuing here vpon earth where they that liue are taught Fourthly he meanes that Church whereto euery one may haue accesse and repaire for instruction whereto also they may ioine themselues and wherein they may admonish their brethren and therefore precisely he speakes of the Militant church vpon earth and his words that to speake precisely he makes not the question this way but onely askes whether the Church whose doctrine is the rule be visible are so precise that a man would think his head-peece were not wel seasoned when either he must grant this his visible Church to be militant or confesse it to be none of Gods Church for so much as all the Church of God whose doctrine is the rule of faith is for the time being militant here on earth and part of that which is mentioned in the Creed where we say credo Ecclesiam Therefore the question betweene vs is whether the companie of those that professe and teach the true faith of Christ without mixture of corruption among whom possible many hypocrites and wicked men liue which companie is called the Militant-church be at all times visible The Reply sayes it is and must no more denie his assertion to be meant euen precisely of this companie 4 His second exception is about the words visible and inuisible where he sayes fiue things First that by a visible Church I make him to mean a company alway so illustrious that it may be knowne to all men liuing at all times Secondly that I make him to meane this companie also to be so illustrious that actually it is thus knowne Thirdly that he meanes not the word visible in this second sence Fouthly that he knowes the Church is sometime obscured and shines not actually through the whole world Fiftly that the Church is alway visible in this sence that alway euen in the greatest obscuritie it hath some eminent professors which either are actually knowne or may in particular be assigned The first is true for he sayes it expresly in the last And I suppose he will not denie it when so many of his owne Diuines hold it Dom. Bannes d Tom. 3. pag. 103. sayes the Church is so visible that it is palpable Bellarmine e De Eccl. l. 3. c. 13. God hath at all times a Church consisting not of a few people but of a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome Greg. of Valence f Tom. 3 p. 143. Our assertion is that in all ages there may euidently be seene and discerned and as it were pointed out with the finger a companie of men whereof euery one may beleeue that it is the true Church The second is false For though it follow manifestly vpon his words and that which the Diuines of his church teach of the visâ—â—â—lenesse of their church yet I charged him not so farre but contented my selfe with confuting that which is contained in his first and last assertion Neuerthelesse it is true that he and all Papists must by their owne principles hold the Church to be euen actually visible to all men For he sayes g Repl. p. 170. God hath giuen sufficient meanes to all men for their saluation h In THE WAY §. 13. and the teaching of this his church is the meanes But no meanes is sufficient that is not actually reuealed as i Ch. 25. n. 15.16 I haue shewed heretofore out of the Repliers owne authors Therefore if sufficient meanes be onely that which is actually reuealed and the Church be the meanes it followes the Church must be actually visible or else let vs see how the Replier will quit himselfe The third is also false as I haue said but yet allowing it to be true I haue not peruerted the question because I affirme and dispute against the visiblenesse of the Church in that sâ—nce which he holds in the first and last assertion The fourth I accept as the truth and haue shewed in k Digr 17. THE WAY that as his owne Diuines expound it it vtterly destroyes his first and last assertions and yeelds as much as
we say that the Church free from grosse and foule corruptions is not alway to be seene where or in whom it is Whereto if you adde that which l Epist de pacif Venet. ad Reg. Franc. 1607. April 5. Cardinall Perone lately writ to the French King that it is vncertaine whether God will suffer the Catholicke religion to be oppressed in Italie and driuen out of all Europe into another Hemisphere the case will be clearer For if the Pope and his drudgerie may be expulsed Italy and twentie Geneuahs planted there as the Cardinall speaks beleeue me that would bring the Romane faith to as low a size as euer the Protestants was and our aduersaries would be as inuisible as their fellowes The last is enough to shew that I peruert not the question For I denie and shewed in my answers to all his arguments that howsoeuer the Church consists of men that may be seene and these men know one another where they liue yet there is no such eminencie in any of them that the world can tell who or where they be that in the Church hold the true faith without corruption but they may be so hidden by persecutions heresies increasing in the church that no man shall discerne them and that they can haue no open or vncorrupted exercise of religion wherein I haue shewed our aduersaries themselues driuen by the necessitie of the truth to come home to vs. Digress 17. A. D. Now taking the question in this sence Pag. 236. my conclusion of this chapter was that the Church is neuer quite inuisible but alwaies visible This I proued by diuers reasons which stand still in force against my aduersaries supposing the state of the question be rightly vnderstood as first I meant it and as now I haue declared it The truth of which my conclusion I further confirme by the authoritie of Saint Augustine who * Ep. 48. hauing said as euen now I cited that the Church is sometimes obscured with multitude of scandals he addeth but euen then she is eminent in her most firme members Secondly I confirme the same by experience of ancient and present times because euen in times of greatest persecution vnder the heathen Emperors euen when the Church hath seemed to be ouerwhelmed with heresies euen when it was said that the world did maruell to see it selfe become Arian euen when it seemed to be rent in peeces with schismes euen when it hath bene most blemished with ill liues of the true professors themselues euen in the most obscure and ignorant ages wherein there was least number of teachers and writers there was alwayes a companie of true professing Christians so visible as that at least some in all ages whom God stirred vp to be eminent men opposing themselues by word or example or both as a wall for the house of God were actually apparent euen to the world or at least being knowne to Christians themselues as my aduersaries seeme to grant that the true Professors alwaies are they or some of them might and may be assigned by Christians to such as desire to know them as after I shall shew which sufficeth to proue the Church visible in such sence as I here make the question In what sence the Church militant is said to be sometime inuisible 5 The question is not of the visiblenesse of the church taking the word Church for the Militant church of God wherein the true faith is preserued and whose sound doctrine is the rule of all faith for we denie it not but onely as it signifies such therein as are free from the generall apostacie and corruptions which now and then preuaile in and all ouer the church For in the first sence we say the Church is visible because the companies of those which professe and hold the substance of faith howsoeuer many errors besides may be added thereto are alway manifest but in the second sence we say it may be inuisible inasmuch as at some times yea for a long time together no part thereof nor any companie therein can be discerned to be free from the corruption preuailing but a time may come when things are so reformed and the doctrine of the Church so reduced to the first Apostolicke veritie by putting away the apostacie and innouations that for some ages before there hath not bene knowne in all the Church any companie enioying or practising the said doctrine thus purged and reformed This being all that I hold touching the inuisiblenesse of the Church his reason concludes nothing against me as will appeare by viewing a In THE WAY §. 18. inde my answers To the place of Saint Austine I answer that it makes for me in the first words expresly The Church is sometimes obscured with multitudes of scandals and in the latter words the firme members wherein the Church is eminent are not such as are totally free from all abuses and corruptions belonging to apostacie but such as in the middest of corruption still retaine the principall points of Christian faith and among many errors yet eminently hold the substance of sauing doctrine and such we grant alway were in the middest of the Papacie which is OVR VISIBLE CHVRCH THAT WAS BEFORE LVTHERS TIME To his other reason of experience of ancient and present times I haue answered also in my booke and here answer againe that it is false meaning by those true professing Christians stirred vp of God and eminent men opposing themselues such as opposed themselues against all error For there neuer wanted in any persecution schisme or heresie those which professed the true faith euen visibly in that which substantially belonged to the faith and was sufficient to saluation but there haue not alway bene visibly to be seene those that eminently opposed or refused euery corruption or were preserued from such error as was afterward lawfully reformed and done away For the church of Rome being made the seate of Antichrist b 2. Thess 2 6. Apoc. 17. Valde verisimile est Irenae l. 5. c 30. as the holy Ghost foretold it was impossible there should be any visible companie so eminent or perfect that the generall contagion should not though not mortally in some measure touch them as c Act. 1.6 the Iudaisme of the times wherein Christ liued generally corrupted all the Apostles who yet for all that remained eminent members of the Church And if my aduersary thinke his Pope not to be Antichrist or the persecution of Antichrist whosoeuer he be not able thus far to preuaile against the Church let him descend when he will into that question and he will find himselfe as weake there as here the rather because I know no learned man of his side but confesses the same inuisiblenesse of the Church in Antichrists time that I maintaine Telesphorus the Hermite d Lib. de magn tribul pag. 32. edit Venet. per Soard an 1516. sayes The sacrifice and oblation shall faile the Ecclesiasticall
it is impudencie to denie his conclusion so apparently proued on the other side we dare not grant it for feare of the people Here is neuer a true word First his conclusion is not proued For the arguments which he propounded to demonstrate it he hath not followed nor vpholden but leauing them in the field behind him he runs away without so much as looking behind him and in all his Reply rescues not one of them Secondly his conclusion is iustly denied and without impudencie for it is no impudencie to denie that which cannot be proued but it is impudencie to require men to beleeue that which hath no proofe He speakes of his proofes as he doth of his Church all is eminent illustrous apparent plaine visible to all when yet no man sees them Thirdly the reason why we grant not the Church to be in his sence visible is not for feare of the people nor because we cannot giue the Professors of our faith in euery age but because it is the truth which with all his boasting he cannot remoue for albeit the Church neuer failes but abides perpetually visible in some degree to the end yet is there not alway therein a visible companie by profession and gouernment distinct from the rest that is free from the generall corruption that preuailes in the Church of which company onely the question is He maintaining that the Church cannot erre nor be subiect to any such corruption but hath alway in it eminent professors and speciall congregations that are neuer infected with any part of the corruption nor need reformation which persons and congregations appeare as visibly and distinctly to all men as worldly kingdomes are distinctly seene and knowne and we holding the Church to be perpetuall onely because there are alway in the world which hold the true worship of God and to be visible in regard it may at all times be seene though heresie may so preuaile and persecution so arise that a visible companie shall not appeare which is not in some measure touched with the common errors or needs not repentance and reformation All which is so true that I challenge the Replier and prouoke the zealousest of my aduersaries to say ingenuously if the learned Papists alledged Digress 17. say not in effect as much themselues 2 Our answer therefore is direct and plaine both to the conclusion and the reasons and so direct that the Iesuite hath no stomack to reply but exceeding grosly falsly expounds affixes a meaning to vs that we neuer meant First he says we distinguish two seuerall Churches whereof we call the one the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed containing onely the elect the other the Militant Church containing as part of the Catholick the professors of the true faith whether good or bad beleeuers or hypocrites elect or reprobate Next he sayes the reason why we thus distinguish two seuerall Churches is that when we are hunted out of the one we may runne into the other This he expounds something more plainly That which as I guesse for he hath no certaintie of what he sayes driues them to admit such a Church militant distinguisht from the Catholicke is least if none should be said to pertaine to the Church but onely the elect it would follow that men might despaire of attaining true faith which is not had but by the teaching of the Church for as much as they could neuer know who are elected Thirdly he says this Militant Church which other Protestants commonly call the visible Church M. White will needs defend to be sometimes inuisible That these things may the better be vnderstood and answered note FIRST that by the word Church taken in his full latitude The Church we meane the whole companie of all those whom God calls to the knowledge and profession of his truth and so to saluation Of which calling and separation from the rest of the world liuing in Atheisme and idolatry without the knowledge or acceptation of those supernatural verities that leade to God it hath the denomination and is called the Church as if you should say a companie called or gathered forth of the rest of the world But one church Note SECONDLY that the Church absolutely and simply considered in this latitude is but One as the state and company of the kingdome of Great Brittain is but one in as much as all and euery one called to this grace of how different state qualities or condition soeuer belong one way or other to this companie for the faith being but one and the maner of calling by reuealing the same but one the companies that receiue and professe it how many soeuer respectiuely yet absolutely and abstracting from particular conditions of times and persons can be but one Note THIRDLY that in the Church being absolutely but one there are sundry differences and respects that is to say the persons called to the faith of Christ are of diuers sorts as the kingdome of Great Brittain being but one yet is diuers waies considered For some part of the Church being reduced from the state of this mortall life reignes with God in heauen and is glorified with that glorie whereto it was called when it was here on earth The triumphant Church This we call the Triumphant Church because as triumphers they enioy the reward due to conquerers The other part of the Church is that which successiuely in all ages liues here in this world professing that it desires to follow the Triumphant The militant Church and enioy eternall life this we call the Church Militant because it lies as it were in the campe fighting against the world the diuell and the flesh vnder the banner of Christ waiting for the victorie But among these againe there are two sorts of people the first all such as are called effectually The Church of the elect these are the elect onely whom God not onely calls but inspires also effectually to obey his calling and to liue holy and vnblameable in such sort that they shal infallibly be saued in the life to come The inuisible Church This company we call the inuisible Church because God onely sees who are his we can see the men and by their fruits hope they are Gods elect but to speake precisely no mortall eie can discerne them to be Gods elect but God alone by reason hypocrites and the reprobate do many times resemble them in shew and profession The second sort of the Militant Church are hypocrites and vnsound members that are not called effectually but disobey the truth whereof they make profession such are heretickes schismatickes and all the wicked that will not obey the truth whom we call the false and malignant church The malignant Church Note FOVRTHLY that howsoeuer the elect liuing here vpon earth and effectually called be inuisible in the sence deliuered yet when we say the Church militant is sometimes inuisible we meane it of the Church Militant that liues in
And albeit we thus distinguish the Militant from the Catholick inuisible Church of the elect part whereof is alway in the Militant church and one cause among many be the same that the Replier hath assigned lest if none should pertaine to the Church but the elect men should despaire of attaining the truth forasmuch as it is not found but in the Church because they should not be able to tell who are elect yet that we say is a direct answer to them that bid vs assigne a continuall visible Church professing the Protestant religion for we assigne and name not the inuisible Church of the elect as the Replier absurdly reports but the Militant Church of Rome that all men haue seene many ages together But when they reply that the Church of Rome differs from the Protestants in many points then comes in that we say of the inuisible state of the Church that the true Church of God wherein saluation is to be found may yet for some space and distance of time be so ouerwhelmed with heresie and persecution that no companie can be seene to beleeue and professe in all things aright according to the Apostles teaching by reason of errors either greater or lesser added to their Apostolicke faith the which errors when God giues libertie to remoue that the rule of faith may be holden without them then it may truly and directly be said the reformed Church that hath remoued these corruptions for some space in former times was inuisible What vntruth now or what flying out of one Church into another is here or what strait is this Let the Iesuite say resolutely and directly without cauilling Ad 3. 4 To the third that this Church which other Protestants commonly call the visible Church M. White will needs defend to be sometime inuisible I answer other Protestants and M. White with them call the Militant Church visible and hold it to be alway so because it is such as may be seene and at all times is to be seene and yet againe M. White and all other Protestants with him will denie it to be alway visible in that sence which the Iesuites vse to deliuer this is no contradiction when the Church is called visible in one state and yet inuisible in another As the Sunne is affirmed to be visible when it is in our Horizon and then affirmed againe to be inuisible when it is gone downe or obscured by eclipse A. D. To ouerthrow this absurd answer of my aduersaries Pag. 238. I will in this place shew first that this distinction of two Churches is false Secondly that if it were true at least in this place it is friuolous Thirdly that the Church Militant containing all professors of the faith cannot be as M. White would haue it inuisible 5 The first of these is needlesse For no man holds two Churches but onely two or more respects of one Church as I noted the which respects h Catech. Rom pag. 112. our aduersaries all of them distinguish as well as we The next is with his owne word friuolous For to what end should he stand prouing that friuolous which his aduersarie sayes not How absurd therefore soeuer he thinke my answer yet this is no good way to infringe it by reporting that to be my answer which is not and disputing against that I say not neuer meaning to deale with that which is my true answer indeed The third tends well enough to the prouing his conclusion being vnderstood of such an inuisiblenesse as I haue declared yet when all he will say was propounded in his first booke and directly answered and much more then his Reply containes why did he not reply vpon that but multiply new reasons before he hath defended the old Neuerthelesse omitting his two first points wherein he touches not my booke I will answer that which he sayes concerning me in the third A. D. § 3. Concerning the third point Pag. 241. Wotton p. 107. White p. 87. 100. that the companie of Professors cannot be inuisible M. White and M. Wotton both seeme to defend that not onely the true Church consisting in their opinion onely of the elect is altogether inuisible but the other Church which they grant to consist of all Professors of the faith may sometimes be inuisible this assertion they maintaine as it seemeth of purpose that when after I shall vrge them to assigne a continuall professing Protestant companie as we can shew a continuall companie of professors of the Romane faith they may by this starting hole of the inuisibilitie or secretnesse of the Church escape away without answering my demand which can neuer be directly and sufficiently answered To defend this paradoxe of inuisible professors of the faith first they peruert the state of the question as in the beginning I noted Secondly M. White noteth two things White pag. 87. the first is that the Church militant may consist of a small number as it did in the beginning to wit at the time of the passion of Christ and as it shall do in the end of the raigne of Antichrist the second is that although it alwayes professe the faith yet this may be secretly that the world shall not perceiue By which two blind shifts he would gladly bleare the eyes and bewitch the vnderstanding of his Reader so farre as to perswade that in all ages there was at least some few professing Protestants although for many hundred yeares before Luther they were so secret and inuisible that the world nor God I weene could not but the faithfull Protestants themselues forsooth could see and know them 6 First it is true that M. White affirmes the true Church of God to consist onely of the elect the rest being neither perfectly nor truly nor properly members of the Church but onely improperly and aequiuocally or as Canus i Membra videlicet aliquando non ex vita quam sua sponte natura vendicant sed ex situ quem sortita in corpore sunt per Metaphoram transferri solent Propriè ac verè membrum corporis Ecclesiae non sunt Can. loc pag 321. Ad vnionem corporis mystici siue Ecclisiae nunquam pertinent existentes in peccato mortali Alexand. quem refert Ioh. Turrecrem sum de eccl l 1. c. 57. speakes metaphorically by reason of the place they occupie in the church and I alone say not this but as learned Papists as any are say it with me howsoeuer k Solent haretici dicere esse Sanctos Electos esse propriè membra Ecclesiae alios impropriè sed falluntur Staplet relect pag. 8. Yet the learnedst of his owne side say it as well as we as appeares he whom my aduersarie followes relate this opinion as if none but Protestants held it Next I affirme againe and the Replier yeelds it that l No man can tell who be Gods elect A. D. Repl. pag. 238. None can know who are elect or where in particular the
elect be pag. 240. the Church thus considered is altogether inuisible but the question is not touching this Church and therfore against his conclusion I haue also affirmed thirdly that the Church consisting of professors sometime is inuisible that is to say the whole number of true beleeuers and professors liuing in the world which we call the Church Militant sometime loose the outward conspicuousnes of Apostolicke doctrine and gouernment free from abuses which the Papists say they alway hold Touching this assertion he notes two things 7 First the reason why we maintaine it That when he forsooth shall afterwards vrge vs to assigne a continuall professing Protestant company as he can shew a continuall company of Professors of the Roman faith we may by this starting hole escape without answer This is but winde and ostentation he can shew no continuall company successiuely or visibly professing the Roman faith with all the articles thereof as now it is holden he may set downe a catalogue of Bishops Doctors Councels and Professors that in all ages haue bene in the world but that they beleeued as himselfe and the Iesuites and his Romish Church now do otherwise then in the substantiall articles of faith wherein we agree with them or that there were none among them that misliking the corruptions of the Papacy as they grew held in the substance of the Protestants religion he can neuer shew as will appeare The true cause why we maintaine the Church to be sometime inuisible is this that I shall lay downe * The manner how the question touching the visibility of the Church first began and in what sense For when Luther and the first Reformers some hundred yeares agoe withdrew themselues from the subiection of the Pope and put away these innumerable errors out of their Churches which our Aduersaries now maintaine against vs as the doctrine of image worship Inuocation of Saints Purgatory the Masse Transubstantiation and the rest wherein our Aduersaries and we dissent altering nothing of that which belongs to the substance of true faith or which the Church of Rome had receiued from the Apostles and Primitiue Church but onely contrary to the customes of some ages before professing the same without the mixture of the aforesaid errors the Pope with his crew cried out they were Heretickes persecuting them with fire and sword and charging them to haue forsaken the Church of Christ wherein they should be saued and among other arguments his Champions required them to shew the succession of their doctrine and Pastors boasting that vnlesse they could do it and shew their Church to haue visibly bene in all ages they would conclude they had forsaken the Church and were the first authors of the Protestant Religion The Reformers to this answered that THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE was their visible Church wherein they were bred and whence they proceeded but therein was two kinds of Articles of Religion The one which was Apostolicke and had bene from the beginning the other that which at seuerall times by the faction and conueiance of Hereticks had bene brought in and mingled with the truth this latter they had renounced but not the former making it more then manifest that in the substance of the truth and rule of faith taught by the Apostles and certainely holden by the ancient Church they had altered nothing but onely separated themselues from intollerable corruptions and from the Popes tyranny that maintained and vrged them who by his tyranny and peruerting all things had declared himselfe to be Antichrist sitting in the Church of God And when the Papists still cried SHEW VS A VISIBLE CHVRCH IN ALL THE WORLD PROFSSING IN ALL THINGS AS YOV DO they replied it was not necessary so to do THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE was the visible Church professing as they did in all things substantiall But if they required such a Church as had put away those errors and held the substance without corruptions and heresies mingled among the Professors then such a Church was sometime inuisible that is to say it may sometime fall out that in all the world no part of the Church shall be outwardly seene to hold the succession of all the true faith without corruption and the purest Professors may be oppressed that their memory shall be taken away and that which is the worst part of the Church shall be strongest and generally reputed most Catholicke This is the true and originall reason of this question whereby it is easie to see that we neuer imagined the Church to be simply inuisible at any time but this inuisibility hath bene affirmed onely of the outward state thereof at some times when reformation hath not bene so pure as now it is No otherwise then I would say the body was inuisible when a Leprosie had ouergrowne it or the kingdome of France were inuisible when tyranny and new customes should mingle themselues therewith and the ancient lawes be expounded by a faction of Rebels 8 By this his second exception that to defend a paradoxe I haue peruerted the state of the question is answered For it is cleare hereby that the question is of the militant Church and so D. Stapleton m Relect. p. 2. sayes expresly In this controuersie the appellation of the Church principally belongs to the militant company And the two things mentioned touching it that it may consist of a small number and that it professes sometime in secret being taken in the sense deliuered are so farre from being blind shifts that they cannot be disproued by bragging and if there be any mettall or truth in my Aduersary here I spur him and let him answer freely That which I noted is the cleare confession of many n In THE WAY Digr 17. n. 3. learned Papists themselues Alexand. Durand Turrecremata Parnormitan Pererius Ouandus Acosta the Rhemists Dom Scoto Gregory Valence But these being principall men in the Church of Rome must not be said to teach blind shifts but the truth that therefore which I noted is the truth If it be the truth that the Church militant in respect of the best part thereof may sometime consist of a small number and may secretly that the world cannot see it professe the faith how can the truth bleare the Readers eye or bewitch his vnderstanding when that which befals the Church at one time may befall it againe though not at any yet at some time and whether the yeares were more or lesse wherein we say it was obscured yet they were the yeares of the persecution of Antichrist and in Antichrists time o Ioh. Parisiens tract de Antich p. 45. edit Venet apud Laz. Soarol an 1516. When the Church is turned into Armageddon the mount of theeues no Papist will deny but it may be inuisible in the sense that we hold as I shewed in the 17. Digression and himselfe confesses in that which immediatly followes CHAP. XXXIX 1 The Papists are inforced to yeeld the same that we
say touching the inuisiblenesse of the Church 2 Their doctrine touching the time of Antichrists reigne 3 And the state of the Militant Church at some times 4 Arguments for the perpetuall visiblenesse of the Church answered 5 In whom the true Church consisted before Luthers times Pag. 242. A. D. For declaration of the truth Note first that although the Church of Christ at the beginning and infancy of it were little like a mustard seed Matthew 13. vers 31. Apoc. 20.1.4 Apoc. 20.1.4 August l. de ciuit cap. 11. and about the very end for the short reigne of Antichrist shall be much decaied both in the number of professors and the visiblenesse of the outward state of it as all things commonly are little in their beginning and do decay towards their end yet for all ages betwixt these two times as it did at first grow and increase and spread it selfe ouer the world notwithstanding the wonderfull opposition made against it by persecutions heresies schismes and sinfull liues of Christians so it is described in Scripture to be still a great multitude spread ouer the world August de vnit eccl as S. Augustine proueth at large against the Donatistes the which proofes of S. Augustine were nought worth if it might be answered as the Donatistes were forced to answer that the Church after a time did perish out of all nations White p. 87. or as M. White seemeth ready to answer that it came to be in all nations a small number For which imaginary smalnesse of the number betwixt the first beginning and the latter ending especially for so long time as Protestants are forced to plead inuisibility of their Church M. White will neuer be able to shew any Prophesie of Scripture sufficient to oppose against S. Austines proofes more then the Donatistes could for the Church her perishing out of all nations 1 HE grants the Church at the beginning and toward the end thereof may be like a little mustard seed and much decaied both in the number of Professors and in the visiblenesse of the outward state of it Hence it followes that it is true we say the Church sometimes is obscured and not alwaies so frequent and illustrious for when the externall state thereof consisting in the publicke administration of the word Sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline and in the profession of the faith begins to be corrupted in any high degree and the most and the greatest become the corruptest then it must also be saied that it is obscured and hidden from the world Hence it followes secondly that these assertions of our aduersaries the visible Church neuer failes and this God hath at all times a Church consisting not of a few people but a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome and this the Church is visible and such as may be clearely seene and cannot be hidden are all false if they be meant of the purest part of the Church For to be decaied in such sense as the Repliar * If he wil confesse that which is granted by Saplet relect p. 41. §. Ecclesia quoad bene esse Grego Valent tom 3. p. 145. §. Animaduerti debet non sic accipiendum quod dicimus must confesse howsoeuer here to conceale the truth he speake reseruedly and to consist of a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome cannot stand together forsomuch as the one is the corruption of the other Whence it followes thirdly that the true teaching and ministry of the Church is not alwaie so open and easie to be discerned as the Repliar saies all ouer his Booke for this teaching followes the state of the Church which being conspicuous the teaching also is conspicuous but the state of the Church being poisoned and ouer-whelmed with heresie the teaching must needes be hard to discerne and lesse conspicuous then the Scriptures 2 Secondly he notes that howsoeuer the Church may at the beginning be little and toward the ende for p That the raigne of Antichrist is so short he hath no assurance among his own writers diuers whereof say the contrary the short reigne of Antichrist be much decaied both in the number of Professors and visiblenesse of the outward state yet for all ages betwixt the beginning and the end it shall be a great multitude as S. Austine proues Whereto I answer graunting that many times the Church is and hath bene as large and visible as S. Austine saies and that we do not imagine it to be so small and obscured at all times betweene the beginning and the ende but onely at some times as for example in the 13. and 14. hundred yeares neither is there a word in all S. Austine whereby it may appeare his iudgement is against vs. That which the Iesuit thought good to alleadge I q §. 23. n 3. answered in THE WAY whereto it seemes he hath nothing to reply And graunting that it may be as obscure as we say in the time of Antichrist he were as good yeeld vp his cause for if his owne D.D. be not deceaued the time of Antichrist is not so short as he dreames our Iesuites though very waueringly indeed allow him but 3. yeares and a halfe But what saies r Indic de Apocal Antichr sub fin being a Preface before his translation of Arethas vpon the Apocal. in Oecumen O hers also allow Antichrist a longer time then 3. yeares and a halfe Quantum vero temporis in augenda stabiliendaque Monarchia ponere debeat non mihi constat quia neque ex praedictis locis satis colligitur neque videtur admodum verisimile breui tempore trium annorum cum dimidio haec omnia esse perfecturum Fra. Suar. tom 2. p. 641. defens fid Cathol l. 5. c 9. Quam diu simpliciter regnaturus sit Antichristus à nullo quod ego sciam traditur nulli opinor mortalium fuisse compertum Perer. in Dan. l. 15. in c. 12. p 730. and so others who thinke the height of his reigne shall containe onely 3. yeares and a halfe but the rest of his time much more Hentenius Others otherwise expound A TIME AND TIMES AND HALFE A TIME For it is not possible that in so small a time he should possesse so many kingdomes and prouinces If therefore M. White affirme the Church in regard of the sincerest faith at sometimes comes to be but a small number he affirmes nothing but what the Iesuite himselfe is inforced to yeeld at least in the times of Antichrist Here then is an issue betweene vs. The Church may be inuisible as the Protestants hold in the time of the reigne of Antichrist But the time of the Popes being for example in the 13. and 14. age was a part of the time of the reigne of Antichrist The Church therefore might be inuisible for the time of the Popes being in the 13. and 14. age If my aduersarie mislike the conclusion he must deny the minor
for the maior is his owne doctrine and the doctrine of all the Diuines on his side and then he is debarred from denying the Church to be inuisible till he haue preserued the Pope from being Antichrist which he can neuer do and if he fall out to be Antichrist then I hope he will confesse the sayings of Saint Augustine concerning the Church against the Donatists proue no perpetuall and continuall visibility of the state thereof Pag. 243. Stapleton in relect contr 4. q. 3. art 1. Greg. de Val. tom 3. dis 1. q. 1 A. D. Note Secondly that although it be true which my aduersaries impertinently obiect that the Church is not actually seene at all times by all men yet it is visible that is to say such as at least in potentia remota may be seene or knowne by all if the impediments be not on our parts who should see it Although also it be not alike visible and perspicuous as our Diuines well declare at all times yet it is alwaies so visible and perspicuous that with prudent and diligent inquirie it may be found and discerned in regard euen in times of greatest obscurities there were alwaies some eminent and knowne members of it by reason of which euen men of the world may discerne and distinguish it from other men which were not of the true Church Moreouer although it haue not alwaies an outward illustrious and worldly estate especially in times and places where persecution rageth nor cannot alwaies practise publickly the rites and ceremonies of diuine worship but is forced sometimes to do this in priuate as Christians did in the first ten persecutions vnder the heathen Emperors and as Catholickes in England are forced to do now adaies yet the Church neuer did doth or shall want an inward estate subordination and gouernment of Pastors this being a thing appointed by God himselfe Acts the 20. v. 28. Ehpes 4. v. 12. to be alwaies in the Church nor euer did doth or shall want altogether the practise of rites pertaining to Sacraments and other duties necessary pertaining to diuine worship and profession of the Christian faith neither was or shal this inward estate or practise of the Church vniuersally in any age be so secret but that some notice at least in generall was and may be had of it euen by infidels and enemies in so much that for the time to come S. Augustine affirmeth Aug. l. 20. De ciuit c. 8. that euen in Antichrists time the Church shall be conspicuous in some sort and for times past there are recordes at this day extant in Histories written either by friends enemies or both by which it is to vs and will be to posterity apparant enough that there were such a company of Christian professors vsing such practise in all ages And although the names of all professors nor all particular points pertaining to to their profession be not set downe yet diuers both men and matters are so set downe in stories as it is no great difficulty to assigne a catalogue of some true Christian professors continually in all ages The which records of Histories was doubtlesse first made and afterward preserued by diuine prouidence as a necessary meanes to certifie vs of the fulfilling of the diuine Prophesies and promises made in Scripture about the continuance of the Church For if it be true which M. White saies to wit White pag. 338. that things past cannot be shewed by no other meanes then by histories if we had not Histories to shew and assure vs that Christians had bene in all ages we could not know whether the diuine Prophesies and promises made in Scripture about the continuance of the Church had bene fulfilled or no and so we could not take that solide comfort and confirmation of our faith and hope by these Prophesies and promises for which they were ordained 3 He affirmes fiue things FIRST that howsoeuer the Church be not actually seene at all times by all men yet it is such as may be seene and knowne by all if the impediment be not on their part that should see it this is true But it is not true that his aduersaries obiect this to him impertinently For a The WAIE §. 17. n. 3. I obiected it to let him see how and in what sense we hold the inuisibility of the Church not simply but respectiuely in regard of those that see not the corruptions hiding and defacing it Now I neuer knew before that it was impertinent to expound the sense of the question in controuersie NEXT he grants it is not alike visible and perspicuous at all times as his Diuines well declare The which possible he would neuer haue bin known of if b Digr 17. I had not put him in minde But being graunted c Bel. de eccl l. 3. c. 13. the Cardinall and all that speake as he doth must bate an ace of his assertion God hath at all times a Church consisting not of a few people but a great multitude as conspicuous as an earthly kingdome For if it be not alway alike perspicuous but sometime d Staplet Grego Valent. vbi sup as Stapleton and Gregory declare in the places quoted if they had bene quoted truely it may be so tossed with errors and scismes and persecutions that to such as are vnskilfull and do not discreetely weigh things and times it shall be very hard to be discerned then it falles a great deale short of a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome THIRDLY he saies that although it be not alike visible at all times yet it is alwaie so visible that with prudent and diligent inquirie it may be discerned Which we deny not but the reason hereof is not in regard there are alway some eminent members of it wholy free from all the corruption preuailing because those eminent members the Iesuite vnderstands to be the Pope and some part at least of his hierarchy the visibilitie of the Church e Simanch institut Cathol tit 24. n. 1. Azor. instit tom 2 l. 5. c. 21. quinto being defined by the perpetuall subiection thereof to a visible Pope but because euen then when it is most inuisible and kept downe with persecution and heresie the substance and rule of faith is preserued and such as are enlightned by the Spirit of God by diligent inquirie may perceiue the soundest part of the Church to be not in the multitude as the world thinketh which hath innouated the ancient faith but among those few meane oppressed ones that this glorious and conspicuous multitude condemnes and persecutes not the eminency of Sate but the eminency of truth and doctrine being the signe wherby to know them FOVRTHLY he confesses the Church cannot alway practise publikely the rites of Gods worship but is forced sometimes to do it in priuate this is also true for albeit the publicke worship shall neuer faile to be openly exercised yet sometime this open exercise
may be more corrupt and defiled with the inuentions of men then the priuate retained by those that cannot or dare not reforme the abuses But then why doth he censure me all ouer his booke for holding this and scoffe at that I said the faithfull may sometime professe onely in secret among themselues And but that he will not let his stomacke come downe he should haue added f According to the doctrine of his Diuines Telelpho de Casent l. de magn Tribul pag. 32. Ouand 4. d. 18. prop. 3. Viega in Apoc. p 763. n. 12. Bozi de sig eccl l. 24. c. 10. Aquipontan de Antich cont Sohn p. 23. that the Sacrifice of the Masse also shall be abolished in the time of Antichrist and then his Church will be as inuisible as ours When it shall not onely be said in secret as Seminaries in England now adaies do it but by their leaue THEY DO NOT THAT ALONE IN SECRET but it shall not be sayed at all which these Catholickes would repine at now adaies in England FIFTHLY he sayes that howsoeuer the Church be not alway illustrious nor cannot alway practise the rites of Gods worship publikely yet it shall neuer want Pastors to gouerne nor altogether the vse of the Sacrament and other duties pertaining to diuine worship and the profession of faith at least in an INWARD estate The which is true and the Protestants say it as well as he expounding those Pastours to haue bene many of the ordinary Pastours liuing in the communion of the Church of Rome for certaine ages past and those Sacraments and rites pertaining to diuine worship to haue bene part of that which was exercised and this profession of Christian faith to haue bene the testimony that many in the said ages haue giuen against the corruptions of the Papacy partly by holding the substance of truth with their errors and partly by suffering persecution for misliking the Papacy And we confesse also that which he addes that this inward state and practise of the Church shall neuer be vniuersally so secret but that some notice shall be had of it euer by enemies and omitting his conceite of Antichrist to come which S. Austin in the place quoted affirmes not we shew for the time past sufficient records thereof both friends and foes testifying in their writings the resistance that in all ages was made against the Papacy as it grew on and the succession of our faith and religion in the middest of the Roman Church it selfe appearing in the books of the Schoolemen and Friars themselues which records and what would the Repliar haue more by diuine prouidence are preserued in the writings of all that liued in those ages euen such as embraced the Papacy though now g By a practise of purging bookes mentioned afore the Church of Rome do what it can to abolish them and certifie vs that the Protestant Religion hath continued in the Church in all ages since Christ Which Records if we wanted then might we as the Repliar speakes iustly misdoubt our case whether the diuine promises made to Gods Church haue bene fulfilled in vs. And though it be true that M. White said Things past cannot be shewed but by stories and many things belonging to the Church and religion no doubt for want of histories be forgotten the said histories being either suppressed or adulterated yet he addes that there is NO ARTICLE OF THE PROTESTANT RELIGION BVT WE CAN SHEW IT IMBRACED AND NO ARTICLE OF THE PAPACIE BVT WE CAN SHEW IT RESISTED EVEN IN THE WRITINGS AND RECORDS OF THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE and by these records we can shew that whatsoeuer wee mislike in our Aduersaries was not at the beginning but crept in and mingled it selfe with the truth through the faction and conueiance of priuate persons in the Church so the fulfilling of Gods promises touching the perpetuall continuance of the Church is knowne sufficiently and our hope confirmed as the Iesuite requires Though the Romish practise in razing and forging histories and antiquity be discouered to be such that were there no records in the world the testimonie of the Scripture alone whereto our faith agrees should suffice for our comfort and to confirme our faith and hope and perswade vs that the diuine promises haue bene fulfilled A. D. Note thirdly that not onely the Church de facto Pag. 244. hath not bene hitherto so visible as I haue sayed but also which chiefly is to be pondered the nature of the Church consisting of Professors of Christian faith is such that according to the ordinary course of Gods prouidence it cannot be altogether secret from the world at least for a long time especially for so long a time as Protestants are forced to pleade for an inuisible Church The reason of which is because the Church is bound to an outward actuall profession of faith White p. 96. Wootton pag. 190. 29. 1. first as my Aduersaries admit among the faithfull themselues in practising the rites and ceremonies of Seruice and Sacraments which may indeed be done in secret although hardly so secret as at least in continuance of time some kinde of generall notice is not giuen of it to others by one chance or other as experience hath of this present and former ages teacheth Secondly the Church is bound to another kind of actuall profession to wit before men of the world according to that of our Sauiour Let your light so shine before men Matth. 5. v. 16. that they may see your good workes and glorifie your Father which is in heauen and according to the example of the primitiue Christians who did not onely shine among themselues but were (a) Mat. 5. v. 14. the lights of the world (b) 1 Cor. 4. v. 9. being made a spectacle to the world (c) Philip. 2. v. 15 D. Thom. 2. 2. q. 3. art 2. as lightes in the world And although all the members in the Church are not bound at all times actually to shine in this manner yet so often as the notable glory of God and the good of soules necessarily requireth euery one is bound thus by wordes or workes to make profession of his faith in the sight of the world Now although Gods glory and the good of soules do not necessarily require that this or that priuate man should professe his faith at all times yet that some or other should professe is alwaies necessary both for the glory of God the good of soules for if for any notable time Isay 54. v. 1. 2. Malac. 1. v 11. Aug. orat aduers Iudaeos de vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 7. ep 48. there were no professing true Christians eminently knowne at least in generall in the world first it were a notable dishonor to God in that it should shew that all his seruants loued or feared the world more then him and that they had lesse regard to publish his honor in the world then the Diuels instruments
ordinarily haue to publish the profession of other religions which tend to Gods dishonor And that wheras it was prophecied of the Church that it should be more ample and glorious then the Synagogue of the Iewes was in the most flourishing estate it should be so far from being more ample and glorious that it were sometime more narrow or lesse conspicuous then the Synagogue of the Iewes euer was or now is in her ruinate estate Moreuer it were a notable hinderance to the good of innumerable * Because the knowledge of the Church is necessarie for all those which will be saued therefore our Sauiour said that she could not be hidden Aug. ep 170. soules which by teaching and conuersation of the faithfull might most easily be conuerted to the faith who otherwise for want of hearing or possibility to heare that there were any such religion should through ignorance perish Thirdly the Church is bound by the negatiue precept of profession of faith neuer to deny Christ or the truth of his religion nor to professe outwardly the rites and ceremonies of any contrary religion by which abstaining from Seruice and ceremonies of other Religions the Church could not especially for any long time liue so secret but it should be noted and knowne as we see Catholickes to be at this day detected by their refusal to come to Protestant seruice and sermons and as Protestants in Queene Maries daies were notified by abstaining from Catholicke seruice and Sacraments 4 This which he notes thirdly containes three arguments to shew the nature of the Church to be such that it cannot be secret from the world at least so long a time as the Protestants pleade for an inuisible Church First because it is bound to actuall and outward profession Next it should be lesse conspicuous then the Synagogue of the Iewes which were against the Prophecyes Thirdly innumerable soules should perish for want of Church teaching when they could not see the Church Ad. 3. The last of these reasons I answered in the WAY Ad. 2. whereto because he replies nothing I refer both him and his Reader To the second I answer that the glory and praeminence of the Church aboue the Synagogue prophesied stands not in the perpetuall visiblenes thereof as our aduersaries define visiblenes 1. Esa 60. 11. Act 10.11 but in foure other things First the compasse and limits which was no longer to be confined within Iudaea 2. Ioh. 4.23 but inlarged to all nations Secondly the manner of worship which should not be any longer carnal and typicall 3. Heb. 8.6 but spirituall Thirdly the dignity of the Ghospell and the promises annexed thereunto aboue the law and the promises thereof wherein the Iewes were trained vp Fourthly 4. Heb. 12.28 cum 27. in the continuance thereof which was to be not till a certaine time as the Synagogue was but for euer to the worlds end Thus it was promised that the Church should exceed the Synagogue which promise may well stand with that which we say for the apostasie that preuailed a 2. Th. 2.3 Apoc 9.2 12.6 13.14 17.2 was also prophecied which being at the highest yet the Church lost not these prerogatiues but her faith continued still to be Catholicke in those that vpheld the substantiall articles thereof all ouer the world howsoeuer the apostasie brought in many and dangerous heresies that were holden besides in the Church as the Synagogue also sometimes was ouerwhelmed with the like corruptions 5 His first reason is Ad. 1. because the Church is bound by a negatiue precept neuer to deny Christ or his religion or to abstaine from the seruice and ceremonies thereof but outwardly to professe the faith To this I answered in b §. 19. my Booke that the Church neither failes to professe outwardly the faith which in heart it beleeues nor yet is made visible and knowne to all by this profession The reason is because the members of the Church professing the substance of faith as c 1. Reg. 19.18 the 7000. in Israel did that bowed not the knee to Baal whom Elias saw not when persecution and preuailing error will not suffer them to do it in the purest manner in all points yet this is outward profession and satisfies the commandement which requires no more but 2. things first that we professe openly to the world as long as the same wil suffer vs and be ready to seale the faith thus professed with our bloud when by necessary circūstances of time and place we shall be called thereunto secondly that when persecution or inuincible ignorance or any other impediment hinders that this cannot be done yet we professe one to another and maintaine the faith wheresoeuer or how few soeuer so farre as we haue meanes to vnderstand To this my aduersary replies that indeede the rites and ceremonies of seruice and sacraments whereby he meanes the profession mentioned in as much as by the exercize of these things Christ is professed may though hardly be done in secret but the Church is bound to another kind of actuall profession before the world I answer 2. things First himselfe knew this absolutely taken to be false and therefore he recalles himselfe and yeeldes againe that all the members of the Church are not bound at all times actually to shine in this maner but then when Gods glory and the good of soules requires This he borrowed of his Thomas whose words shall be this part of my answer For the Church and the seuerall members thereof are neuer so hidden or ouerwhelmed with error but in time and place necessarily requiring the same they professe the substance euen outwardly and suffer sometime for the same and thus did many professe the Protestants faith in all ages and therefore the Iesuite trifles away the time when he standes to proue it necessary that euen alway some or other should professe outwardly for we graunt it and that there are some eminent Christians if not in state yet in faith and truth at all times and these loue God feare not the world but regard his honour and desire to publish his truth and what yee will and yet still these men may be oppressed with some corruptions and hindered by persecution that few can marke or discerne them and so contemptible in the world that the most will not beleeue them by reason the externall greatnesse and opinion of their persecutors wherto by all subtiltie and tyrannie they haue aspired shall dazell the eies of men that they cannot discerne the truth * Where the Protestants Church was before Luthers daies Secondly I answer that euen the members of the Church of Rome it selfe as the Bishops of France and England with their congregations for example professed thus outwardly to all the world the Christian faith for albeit they were some of them more and some lesse corrupted with the Apostacy vniuersally spread ouer the Church and had entertained the abuses that
Luther and the Reformers put away yet the foundation remained and the Scripture was preserued and the whole rule of faith and in the agonies and conflicts of their conscience they defended the truth of these things and by repentance cast away their damnable errors and all such euen in the middest of the Papacy were outward professors and members of our Church yea God stirred vp among the persecutors themselues and such as liued it communion with them many that gaue witnesse to the truth by teaching and deliuering the seuerall articles thereof some one and some another among their heresies and corruptions And thus we say our religion also euery parcell of it stood in the middest of the Papacy and when the Church was most defaced For first some persons still perseuered in holding and professing it entirely in regard of the substance for though euery one of them be proued to haue holden some error withall as possible Wickliffe or the Waldenses did that is no preiudice to the Church 2. Many ordinary Doctors and learned men in the Church of Rome at all times saw the abuses and errors that crept in and speaking against them noted and branded them 3. Few learned men that liued in the communion of the Church of Rome but they held one point or other of the substance of truth yea many things belonging to the foundation whereupon it is that I say so often THERE IS NOTHING WHEREIN WE DISSENT FROM THE PAPISTS BVT WE CAN SHEW IT TAVGHT AND DELIVERED IN THE BOOKES OF ANCIENT PAPISTS THEMSELVES which proues vnanswerably that the things now broached by the Trent Councell and the Iesuites were not the certen doctrine of those times but were successiuely aduanced by the policy of Satan the faction of his instruments alwaies innouating and adulterating the truth in some part or other thereof CHAP XL. Againe touching the visiblenesse of the Church and in what sence we say it was inuisible Many things innouated in the Church of Rome The complaints of Vbertine and Ierome of Ferrara 2. 3. All the Protestants faith was preserued in the middest of the Church of Rome 6. A iest of the Terynthians 7. What religion hath bred desperation A.D. Note fourthly Pag. 246. Math. 5. v. 15. Ibid. v. 14. that since God hath ordained his Church to be of such nature that like light not hid vnder a bushell but put vpon a candlesticke it cannot but shine before men in manner aforesaid and that like a citie built on a mountaine it cannot be hid and this partly for his owne honour and for the good of soules not onely of those which are already faithfull but of his part for the generall good of the whole world hence appeareth that not onely the Church in euery seuerall age could not but be visible to men liuing in some age but also partly by Gods prouidence partly by humane diligence some records of Histories could not morally speaking but be set out either by friends or by enemies as they haue bene hitherto in like and lesse matters and being set out they could not but be still extant in such sort as not onely it may appeare to posterity that the Church hath bene alwaies but also that at least some eminent members of it may be assigned in all precedent ages One chiefe vse of which Historiesis that for the confirmation of our faith and hope we may plainely see those Prophecies and promises of Scripture which concerne the continuance of the Church to haue bene hitherto fulfilled and that when question at any time shall be made which company of visible professors of the Christian faith are the true Church by â—â—lpe of these Histories the question may be more easily decided in that a continuall line all descent being shewed of one company from Christs time hitherto the like whereof cannot be shewed of others one that hath learned by the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ was to continue alwaies and that visible in such sort as I haue shewed might straightwaies coÌ„clude that that onely company which by Histories is shewed thus to haue continued is the true Church and that the other which could not by Histories shew such a visible continuance is not the true Church In what sense the Protestants say the Church was sometimes inuisible 1 Stil the Iesuit reasons as if we held the Church for many ages together to haue bene simply inuisible that no man could tell where it was whereas we onely hold that comparatiuely it is not visible at one time in such sort and with such purity and liberty from corruption as it is at another That is to say it doth not visibly professe the whole truth without mixture of corruption nor retaine the outward state in such purity and liberty of profession and Ecclesiasticall gouernement as needes no reformation but is at sometimes oppressed with persecution and intangled with heresie breeding among the members that albeit the substance of truth remaine and many retaine it with effect yet a particular company professing and exercizing the same faith and goernement intirely without corruption in such manner as at other sometimes it doth cannot be found the small persecuted and oppressed company may also be the soundest members of the Church and the articles of religion most opposed may be the truth and the chiefe Pastours and greatest multitude that are most followed beleeued may be the followers and army of Antichrist The state of all the Church finally throughout the world may be so corrupted that a pure Church such as the primitiue Church was or such as the Church should be cannot be seene This is that we meane when we hold the Churches inuisiblenesse whereby it is easie to see that what the Iesuite notes is of no force against vs. For it shall be granted that Almighty God partly for his owne glory and partly for the good of soules hath ordained his Church to be a light that cannot but shine and a city that cannot be hid and therefore it must needs be visible in euery age and such as by history may be made apparant and some eminent members thereof in euery age may be assigned But hence it doth not follow that it shall alway be visible in one and the same state or the members thereof eminently and apparantly shall professe the faith in the same degree of perfection and liberty but onely that all the faith of Christ shall be visibly professed therein for the Church is compared to a light not because it is perpetually visible in one state for lightes haue their Eclipses and blind men see them nor when they shine but because at some time it is exceeding visible in the best state and at all times it hath in it in some degrees or other the light of all truth and glory whereby the elect are guided to God I loue not to repeate that I haue said already till I see it answered and therefore if the Reader desire further
from the damnable doctrines thereof albeit they were corrupted with some lesser errors whereof they repented at their death Secondly some openly refused those damnable doctrines and suffered for the same Thirdly some resisted the Papacy as it grew on and noted the abuses thereof and neuer ceased to complaine and call for reformation Fourthly many that were ordinary Pastors and Bishops in the Church of Rome though poysoned with damnable heresies yet still professed the substance of faith and repented them in diuers things and maintained the Scripture to be the word of God The which things do sufficiently vphold the succession of our doctrine though Lombard and Thomas and Gerson and Occham and such as they were be said to be some of the persons in whom it succeeded by reason the rest which they held against vs appeares by the Scriptures and writings of the Apostolicke Church to haue bene their owne inuentions This plainely shewes who were the Nullus and Nemoes that held the Protestants religion when they did all this some in a higher and some in a lower degree according to the measure of their knowledge and meanes that they had whom the Pope and his Clergy persecuted and condemned for heretickes though they were the best and soundest part of the Church in regard of which persecution restraining them that the truth might not be suffered openly in the congregations which were all surprised by Antichrist we call them the inuisible Church that was not seene to enioy religion and discipline in the liberty puritie and perspicuitie that we now do and whom the wicked vnbeleeuers of the world could not discerne or obserue by reason their eyes were blinded that they should not behold the truth I admonish the Replyar hereafter to take notice of this and not to reply vpon an opinion of his owne making least forging that which no man holds and then so Paedant like squirting at it his owne head proue a hiue for Platoes Ideas and the caue where Chymaera nestles himselfe Pag. 247. A. D. If they could make solide answer to this argument they would neuer seeke for such shifts but being not able soundly to answer it nor yet willing to acknowledge themselues to be conuinced by it desperate obstinacy and obstinate desperation hath driuen them to this bad miserable ridiculous and desperate shift the which if it were not a bad shift Aug. contra Gâ—udentium l. 3. c. 1. S. Augustine could not well haue vrged the Donatists as he did saying If yours be the Catholicke Church shew it to stretch out the boughs of it which abundance of plentifull increase ouer the whole earth For by this shift they might easily haue answered that it did not follow that their Church was not the true Church because they could not shew it to extend it selfe ouer the earth because it might be inuisible If this were not a miserable shift the same S. Augustine could not well haue assigned it as a note proper to heretickes as he did saying A cleare and manifest authority of the Church being appointed ouer the whole orbe of the earth Christ our Sauiour doth consequently admonish his Disciples and all the faithfull who will beleeue in him that they beleeue not scismaticks or heretickes for euery scisme and heresie either hath his particular place holding some place and corner of the earth or else deceiueth the curiositie of men in obscure and secret conuenticles if any say vnto you behold here is Christ and there which signifieth some parts of the earth or prouinces thereof or in secret places or in the desert which signifieth the obscure and secret inuisible conuenticles of heretikes c. If it were not also a ridiculous shift men of our time would not haue bene moued at the hearing of it to say as one did Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici and much lesse would S. Augustine onely imagining that some should say Siquis dixerit fortè sunt aliquae oues Dei nescio vbi quas curat Deus illas non noui absurdus est nimis humano sensui qui talia cogitat Aug. l. de ouibus cap. 16. conformably to it God hath perhaps other sheepe of whom himselfe taketh care but I know not where they be nor who they be haue saied of it as he did he to wit that saith or shall say thus is too too absurd to humane sense Lastly if it were not also a desperate shift the consideration of the falsehood and folly of it could neuer haue driuen as it seemeth it hath done diuers learned Protestants obstinately bent against the Catholicke profession either to doubt or deny or vtterly to cast off the truth of Christian profession neither could it be so apt to driue all other obstinate Protestants to the like desperate resolution as doubtlesse it is when on the one side they open their eies to consider the plaine Prophesies of Scripture foretelling the amplitude splendor glory and continuance of true Christian professors and on the other side may plainely see such predictions not to haue bene fulfilled in their inuisible imaginary congregation of Protestant professions For whilest these 2. considerations are ioyned with the obstinate hatred of the Catholicke Romane profession which will not let them consider that in it and onely in it these prophecies haue bene fulfilled it is most easie for them through desperation either with Castalion to fall into doubts in faith or with Dauid George flatly to deny the truth of Christian faith or with Bernardine Ochine to fall into the foule heresie of denying the Diuinity of our Sauiour Christ which is one of the most principall articles of our faith or with Neuserus to turne Turke or with Alemanus to become Iewes or with many in our owne miserable countrey to be made absolute Atheistes neither caring for God Christ nor any other thing which we beleeue by true Christian faith 4 In good time now I see land and my penance drawes towards an end I haue but this one blast more to endure He sayes If the Protestants could make solide answer to this argument they would neuer seeke for such shiftes but being not able soundly to answer it nor yet willing to acknowledge themselues to be conuinced by it desperate obstinacy and obstinate desperation haue driuen them to this bad miserable ridiculous and desperate shift This goes reasonable roundly for the spirit of boasting and veine of insulting must now and then sally or our Aduersaries should forfit their Charter But what is the question and what is the argument and what is the answer so desperate The question is about the visibility of the Militant Church the Repliar defending that it is alway visible in one state of purity as he hath expounded The argument he vses to proue it is because the Church must be a light set vpon a Candlesticke and the meanes which God hath appointed for the reuealing of his truth and a Citty built vpon a mount whereto God
hath made his promises Our answer is we deny not our Church to be visible but thinke it to haue bene the same that in all ages communicated with the Church of Rome in the truth and substance of the ancient faith and we call it sometime inuisible onely in that sense which I haue so often declared against which that which is here propounded concludeth nothing 5 For S. Austin sayes no more in the first place but that the Catholicke Church stretches the boughs and increases abundantly ouer the whole earth which we confesse it doth two waies First in that howsoeuer the growth thereof be sometime hindered yet it cannot at all time be so oppressed but that it hath some time and many a long time liberty enough to dilate it selfe all ouer the world as winter corne that in hard weather is not seene to flourish yet hath season enough beside to grow all ouer the field Secondly in as much as it growes also and increases when it is most obscure as the Sunne retaines and exercises his light when it is most ecclipsed The Iesuites continuall error is that to be obscure and to be vtterly taken away is all one and that the suppressing of the outward liberty state and perfection supposes the extinguishing of the essence and being of the Church That which S. Austin sayes in the second place alledged I also grant answering that it may well stand with our assertion A cleare and manifest authority of the Church it appointed ouer the whole world and yet this authority may be resisted and called in question and abused and vsurped by Heretiques and persecutors and then though it be cleare and manifest in it selfe that the Church hath this authority yet the exercise thereof may be corrupted in such sort that sometime it shall need reformation Schismatickes and Heretiques are not to be beleeued but let the Repliar proue all these in whom our Church was to be such Schisme and Heresie haue their particular places and obscure and secret corners but not alwaies for in the Church of Israel when a 1. Reg. 19.14 the children of Israel forsooke the couenant of God Threw downe his altars slue his Prophets and none but Elias alone was left and when b 2. Cro. 15.3 for along season Israel was without the true God and without a teaching Priest and without the law and c 2. Cro. 28.24 when Ahaz the king of Iudah did cut in peeces the vessels and shut vp the dores of the house of God and made him altars in euery corner of Ierusalem and high places in euery seuerall city of Iudah to burne incense to other Gods It was not so Nor at such time as Ierom d Comment in Psal 33. §. Qui statis tom 8. sayed The Church is where the faith is for 20 yeares since Heretiques possessed all these Churches nor when Hilary e Pag. 316. d. writ One thing I forewarne yee of beware of Antichrist ill doth the loue of walles affect you ill do ye reuerence the Church of God in houses and buildings is there any doubt but Antichrist sits in them to me the mountaines and the woods and lakes of water and prisons and boggs are safer And if for the most part they haue doth it follow thereupon that all religion practised particular places and secret corners is Heresie what then shall become of Gods truth in such times as these are But it is absurd to say God hath possible other sheepe I know not where nor who they be that himselfe lookes to and so say I for he speakes of such as hold there may be some of the faithfull out of the Church or at the least so hidden in the Church that none can see them Neither of which is our doctrine but onely that sometimes they may be so oppressed that no man can see any congregation of them openly professing and exercising the worship of God purely and without corruption but the right faith and gouernment shall be euery where persecuted and kept vnder though many of these sheepe thus corrupted belong to the sheepfold of Christ by reason of the foundation of faith which they hold and their repentance of their errors S. Austin therefore proues not our assertion to be a shift Go we forward and let vs see the rest 6 If it were not a ridiculous shift men of our time would not haue bene moued at the hearing of it to say as one did Spectatum admissi That * Camp rat 3. one belike was one of Penelopees f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 odyss ◠wooers or of g Valer. Maxim l. 9. c. 12. Philemons kind that was choaked with laughing at his owne foolish conceite with a iest of his owne making and therefore I will quit them with a story in h Eustath in Hom. odyss p. 659. 22. Eustathius that they may laugh better The Terynthians were a nation generally flowted of their neighbours for their fleering and light countenance they could do nor see nor heare any thing but they would laugh at it Therefore they inquired of Apollo how they might be deliuered from that Passion who answered IF THEY COVLD SACRIFICE A BVLL TO NEPTVNE AND THROW HIM INTO THE SEA WITHOVT LAVGHING whereupon in a speciall consultation they agreed to go forward with the sacrifice but no boyes should be among them least they should laugh at any thing they did but it fortuned that as they were sacrifising a little Boy came in among them and seeing contrary to the custome euery mans countenance so grauely set hee also counterfaited an austeere lookes and carued a face sutable to them which affectation they perceiuing burst all out into laughter and lost their labour and so remained a laughing nation for euer after Their error was to laugh at that in the child which themselues did and with laughing to loose their Bull. It seemes my Repliar and the men that cannot refraine laughter and the man he mentions are of their posterity * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eustath Iouiall companions that will laugh at that in others that they do themselues and will exchange their sacrifice for a iest let them go to the sea againe with the Bull and trie if they can haue any better lucke then the Terinthians i Barbaricum faciem Romanam sumere vultuni miror Ennod. Pitty Roman heads should haue so graue tongues and so light countenances 7 In the last place he obiects that our doctrine touching the inuisible Church hath made diuers learned Protestants obstinately bent against Papistry desperate for when they haue seene the Prophecies of the Scripture foretelling the amplitude splendor glory and continuance of true Christian Professors neuer to haue bene fullfilled in their inuisible congregation of Protestant Professors they haue either doubted ordenied or vtterly cast off the truth of all Christian Profession the reason is their obstinacy not suffering them to consider that in the Roman Profession onely these
Prophecies haue bene fulfilled And haue the Prophecies of Scripture touching the amplitude glory and continuance of the true faith bene accomplished in the Roman profession onely that I meane which we haue reiected whose amplitude to this day neuer extended it selfe beyong these neighbour parts of the West k See Magin geograph 166. the most spacious Churches of Greece Armenia Aethiopia diuers other nations neuer since the Apostasie acknowledging the same but abhorring it as much euer any Protestant did whose continuance in some articles is not yet a 100 yeares whose religion by peece-meale crept in successiuely now one peece now another the Christian world complaining of it Is not this the most desperate impudency that euer was to affirme Purgatory Image-worship the sacrifice of the Masse halfe Communion Latin Seruice and the Lateran and Trent doctrine touching the Popes primacy Councels Transubstantiation the single life of votaries Freewill Merits Iustification good workes the Scriptures wherein the best part of the Roman profession stands to haue continued in all ages in that glory splendour and amplitude that is mentioned in the Prophecies when not onely the ancient Church knew them not but the Diuines themselues in the Church of Rome within these 400. yeares haue had no vnitie or certaine assurance of them Away ye * Iosh 9. Gibeonites with your conterfeit antiquity be packing with your old shoes and mouldy bread and musty bottels out of the Lords campe 8 And haue so may learned Protestants turned Atheists and doubted and cast off religion because they haue not seene the amplitude and glory and continuance mentioned in our Church It seemes this conceite is throughly grafted in our Romane Catholickes hearken therfore and refraine a while the Protestants haue seene the continuance of true religion in all ages in the Churches of Greece and Rome its selfe and other Churches and albeit the amplitude and glory thereof haue bene oppressed by the tyranny or Antichrist and his damnable heresies continually multiplying themselues in the Church of Rome yet this experience and the consideration of this oppression which religion sustained in the ages past at the hands of those Roman professors in whom onely the Reply saies the Prophecies of the Scripture haue bene fulfilled is so farre from making Protestants doubt of truth of Christian faith that nothing confirmes them in it more by reason the Prophecies of Scripture which promise such amplitude glory and continuance to the true Church foretell a-againe the decay of the outward state thereof vnder Antichrist for certaine seasons and the glory which that false Church of his shall rise to through the delusions of Satan By which oppression we know it to be the true Church of Christ and by the continuance of the true faith therein men then when it was most oppressed we know it to be the same that the Prophecies mentioned in the Scripture point to and against which the gates of hell shall neuer preuaile and by this very glory amplitude splendor and pompe that the Replyar boastes is to be seene in his Romane profession alone we know assuredly it is the Church of Antichrist the seate of the Beast that pallace of the whore of Babylon l Apo. 13.4.8.12 18.3.9 Telesphorus Vbertin Friars Ioachim Abbas in their writings of Antichrist note many things very remarkeable touching the seducing of the world by apostaticall Popes Clergy men whom they affirme to haue bene the instruments of Antichrist Telesphorus also settes these things downe in pictures It is certainely reported that when the Abby of S. Edm. Bury in Suffolke was standing before the ouerthrow thereof there was of ancient time in a certaine glas-window of the Abby the story of Antichrist pictured like the Pope attended by Monkes Friars Priests and Cardinals stopping their cares against the Preaching of Enoch and Elias and persecuting thâ—m that harkened to their preaching and diuers other things resembling Antichrist and his crew in the habite of the Pope and his Clergy I haue seene the transsumpt of this picture in a Table drawne by the thing it selfe at Sir Iohn Croftes his house at Saxham nere to Bury whom the kings and merchants and multitudes of the earth must follow This is the effect that the consideration of the Prophecies workes in vs. And if the apostasie or relapse of some particular persons falling into despaire atheisme or heresie be receaued as a sufficient argument against vs what Church shall be free or how shall the Church of God be iustified and what will the Papists answer for their owne religion wherein so many haue miscarried The true Church of Christ hath in it hypocrites and reprobates who stumbling sometime at the doctrine sometime at the state in the day of temptation fall away Thus many of Christs owne Disciples went backe m Ioh. 6.66 and walked no more with him Thus n 2. Tim. 4.10 Demas forsooke Paule and S. Iohn o 1. Ioh 2.19 complaines of diuers that in his time went backe from the true Church Tertullian p Baro. an 201. n 13. seduced by a woman or q Pamel vit Tertul. an 211. Baro. an 201. n. 9. vexed with discontent fell into Montanisme r Prateol Elench haeret v Nouatiani Nouatus into such horrible errors that he was called the prince of heresie Lucifer Calaritanus Å¿ Lucif Caralit l. de non conueniend cum haeret telles of the desperate reuolt of many famous Bishops to Arianisme t Ambros de obit Satyr Theodor hist l. 3. c. 5. Ruff. hist l. 1. c. 30. Who himselfe also being one of the most zealous Catholickes in the world afterward fel into a most pestilent scisme and separating himselfe from the rest of the Church became the author of Luciferian heretikes Our aduersaries themselues also haue found in their own Church the same things wherewith the Iesuite vpbraids vs. The case of Fra. Spira is well knowne u See the story in Sleid. an 1548. he was a lawier neare to Padua and renouncing the Protestants religion which he had most zealously imbraced and professed and falling to Papistry through the persuasion of the Popes Legate fell into the most desperate desperation that we haue lightly heard of and refusing all comfort so miserably ended his dayes * Anto. Panorm de dict fact Alphons l. 2. n. 9 edir Basil per Heruag an 1538. Anthony Picent a famous Hermite who hauing filled all Italy Spaine and Sicily with the opinion of his sanctity reported to fast 40. daies and 40. nights together and when he eate to be fed by Angels and generally reputed for the rarest man aliue yet at his death cast forth horrible reproaches and blasphemies against our blessed Sauiour and his blessed mother the virgine Marie It is as easie to say that desperate obstinacy and obstinate desperation bred in these men by their cleauing to the Romish religion brought them to this miserable ende as it is to
should fall on the Inquisitors as the diuell had promised him we felt no fire touch vs but himselfe was soone burnt and consumed to ashes TO THE READER HItherto my aduersarie hath prosecuted the defence of the twelue first Chapters of his Treatise where he giues ouer and proceeds no further Now followes the SECOND PART of his Booke Pag. 251. which he entitles AN APPENDIX TO THIS FIRST PART OF REPLY wherein an issue or triall is made whereby may be seene whether Catholicks or Protestants be the true VISIBLE CHVRCH wherein he first sets downe as he entitles it A CATALOGVE OF THE NAMES OF SOME CATHOLICK PROFESSORS to shew that the Romane Church hath bin as the true Church must be continually visible in all ages since Christ And then after the Catalogue A CHALLENGE TO PROTESTANTS Pag. 265. requiring them to make a like Catalogue of the Professors of their faith in all ages since Christ as he hath it downe a catalogue of his Church His Catalogue is nothing else but a chronologicall Table containing and representing the names of all the POPES and the most DOCTORS and ancient Fathers and some GENERAL COVNCELS and many PROFESSORS as he cals them of the Romane faith which in euery age haue bin in the Church to this day distinguishing the ages by centuries of yeares and vnder euery centurie placing the Popes Fathers Councels and Professors that liued were therein In the first centurie he names our blessed Sauiour Christ with his Apostles and Euangelists and the Churches of Rome Corinth Galatia with the rest of the Apostolick Churches In the second and so forward be sets downe the ancient Fathers of the Primitiue Church with the Martyrs Councels holy men and nations conuerted that were in euery age successiuely till he come to the yeare 1600. The folly and error of this his Table stands in fiue things first that he assumes these persons Councels and nations to himselfe as professing his Popish faith who were indeed eminent members of the Church in their times but neuer either professed or saw that part of his Romane faith which we haue cast off For how ridiculous is it to say that our Sauiour and his Apostles and the rest that follow for a thousand yeares beleeued and professed as the Iesuites now do or as the Trent Councell hath decreed in the Canons and new Creed thereof The second is that the persons named in the first ages till 800 or a 1000 yeares after Christ not onely professed not the Papacie but beleeued professed that which directly destroyes it They held that which the Church of Rome holds according to the Scriptures and wherein the Papists and we consent but the things in time and by peece-meale added to the truth wherein we differ from them they held not but the contrary Let the Iesuite therefore shew a catalogue of such as in those times professed and beleeued not onely what the Church of Rome beleeues aright but what it holds against vs in the seuerall articles of our difference The third is that diuers Councels especially latterward which resisted the Papacie comming on are omitted as those of Constantinople Frankford Pisa Constance Basil c. and many famous eminent Doctors omitted that professed directly against diuers articles of the now Church of Rome The fourth is that many false and fabulous Saints are named and things set downe out of Legends that can never be proued as the tale of the Iewes of Berytum conuerted by a bleeding Crucifixe and such like The last is that divers Popes for many yeares together namely in the ninth age succeeded not but entred violently and disorderly and very many especially in the latter ages are excepted against vpon diuers points purposely let downe in * Digr 53. my former writing His Catalogue therefore is to no purpose as shall fully appeare in that which follower for euen we our selues lay claime to so much of it as is true and if he will giue vs leaue to adde the names of some others that liued after the 800 yeares we will exhibite this very Catalogue our selues and no other saue that the Legend Saints and the Friars and apostaticall Popes and Iesuites with such traitors as Allen was we need not Next after the Catalogue ensues the CHALLENGE TO PROTESTANTS that they shew the like Catalogue But this is idle For we shew the same if he will permit vs to supply some wants in the latter ages professing the Church of Rome it selfe in all ages to haue bin the visible Church of God as I haue shewed in * From ch 36. forward that which goes before though the Papacie therein were not the Church After his challenge containing onely one leafe the whole matter whereof is the same that I haue answered in the sixe last chapters he propounds certaine obiections which he thought might be made against his Catalogue thereby to give colour to the succession of his Poperie The which obiections with his answers to them I will set downe and handle as I haue done the rest of his Reply and so proceed CHAP. XLII An obiection against the Repliers Catalogue Diuers Articles condemned by the Fathers mentioned in the Catalogue that the Church of Rome now vses What consent there is betweene Antiquitie and Papistrie A. D. My aduersaries will obiect Pag. 267. that all there which I set downe in my Catalogue especially those of the Primitiue age were not professors of our religion in regard as they will say there be diuers points held by vs now adayes whereof no mention is made in the writings of the Fathers of that age To this I answer first retorting more strongly the argument against Protestants who falsly and absurdly challenge as M. Iewell did the Fathers of the first sixe hundred yeares or as M. White doth the whole Christian Church of the first eight hundred yeares to be Protestants And I say that Protestants do hold diuers points now adayes whereof either no mention is made in the writings of the Fathers of those ages or if any mention be made it is expresly contrary to Protestants and for vs and this sometimes with vnanime consent whereas Protestants are neuer able to shew for themselues and against vs in any point such an vnanime consent of those Fathers BEfore he retort the obiection or be too busie with B. Iewels 600 yeares and M. Whites 800 I would haue him to be better aduised what they obiect For touching the Fathers of those times three things will be granted him First that diuers maine articles of the now Romish faith which we reiect are mentioned most amply and frequently in their writings For example the Popes PRIMACIE and being vniuersall Bishop aboue all other Bishops is mentioned by Gregorie himselfe a Pope in the first age and a Per elationem pompatici sermonis Christâ— sibi studet membra subiugare lib. 4. ep 36. Quis rogo in hoc tam peruerso vocabulo
nisi ille ad imitandum proponitur qui despectis Angelorum legionibus secum socialiter constitutis vt solus omnibus praeesse videretur Ep. 38. Ego fidenter dico quia quisquis so vniuersalem Sacerdotem vocat vel vocare desiderat in elaâ—ione sua Antichristum praecurrit l. 6. ep 30. called a proud pompaticall prophane sacrilegious Antichristian and diuellish title and the man that should assume it a follower of the diuel and the forerunner of Antichrist b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb l. 5. c. 17. spoken of Montanus FASTING by distinction of meates and daies c Sectae Simonis â—uisse videtur soâ—ta quaedam Mâ—rcellina quae colebat imagines Iesu Pauli Homeri adorado incensumque ponendo August de haer Irenae l. 1. c 24. Epiph. haer 27. Theodor haer fab l. 1. Jnueni ibi velâ—m habeâ—s imaginem quasi Christs vel Sancti cuiusdam contra authoritatem Scriptiâ—rarum Epiph. ep â—d Ioh. Hicrosol Images d Cathari propter munditiem gl riantes de suis meritis Isido Orig. l. 8. c. 5. Perfection of our workes without sinne and abilitie to keepe the law e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Clem. Rom. constit pag 57. Womens baptizing f Conc. Laod. can 35 Oecum pag 697. Veron graec the worship of Angels g Cruces nec colimus nec optamus Arâ—ob the worshipping of the Crosse h Vâ—rgo erat sed non ad adorationem nobis data Epiph. pag. 344. the worshipping of the virgin Marie i Nec exhorrescunt beatae Trinitatis imaginem facere Euthym. Panopl pag. 690. the Images of the Trinitie k Haereticâ— cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem ipsarum conuertuntur quasi non rectè habeant nec sint ex authoritate quia vartè sunt dicta quâ—a non possit ex his inueniri veritas abhis qui nesciunt Traditionem Irenae l. 3. c 2. the obscuritie and insufficiencie of the Scripture l Auditores apud eos Manichaeos si vâ—luerint vxores habent quorum nihil faciunt qui vocantur electi August ep 74. the necessitie of single life in the Cleargie and many other points defended by our aduersaries are mentioned and named in the Fathers but it is to shew that they were holden by hereticks and to confute them This first grant I returne my aduersary for a fauour because he hath replied without railing in this Chapter and I do it in the name of all Protestants that hereafter he may not say but they are tractable and wil yeeld much of his Romish religion to be if not defended yet mentioned in the writings of the Fathers Secondly that some ceremonies and doctrines also holden at this day by the Church of Rome which we refuse were held by some particular ancient Fathers and practised in the Church of those times though * It is the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis â—hat what the Fathers thus hold is not the Catholicke faith but what they hold resolutely and with generall consent Monitor c. 39. doubtfully vncertainly and without vniuersalitie and vniformitie and which is chiefly to be obserued by him that wil see the truth otherwise and to other intents then the Church of Rome now holds theÌ„ the reason whereof is manifest For the Apostle m 2. Thess 2.7 sayes the mysterie of iniquitie began to work in his time And n Niceph. l. 4. c 7. Euseb hist l 3 c. 32. Hegesippus that liued immediatly after the Apostles The Church continued a virgin vndefiled as long as the Apostles liued but when that generation was passed the conspiracy of wicked heresie through the seducement of those which taught otherwise tooke beginning And o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Isid Pelus l. 3 ep 408. pag 668. Isidorus Pelusiota that liued in the fourth age The Church is like a woman fallen from her ancient state and hauing nothing but the signes of it bereaued of her goods through their naughtinesse that held the administration Thus some particular ceremonies and doctrines began to be vsed and got increase with vsing as Prayer for the dead Purgatorie Necessitie of Baptisme for the saluation of infants and not many more doctrines agreeing with the Church of Rome which yet were vsed and holden as I said vncertainly and to other purposes then now they are for it cannot be shewed that they were the resolued doctrine of the Church vniuersally embraced The most that our aduersaries can shew in the writings of antiquitie being some part of their ceremonies as Tapers Crosses Vigils Oile Spittle Commemorations of the dead and such like wherein also they haue altered or forsaken many things as well as we as they haue with vs abandoned some points of their doctrine also which yet p It is coÌ„fessed that all the Fathers held the B. Virgin to haue bin conceiued in originall sinne by Turrecrem de consecr d. 4. Firmissime nu 11. Dom. Ban. part 1 q 1 art 8. dub 5. And most of the Fathers that the soules of the iust see not God till the day of iudgement Sixt Senens bibl l. 6 an 345. Barthol Medin in 12. pag 56. and others whom see below c. 57. n. 3. In which two points the now Church of Rome hath forsaken them by their owne confession they held as well as they did that which the Church of Rome still retaines which proues vnanswerably that it is no disaduantage to our side if some few particular doctrines thus vnsufficiently held be found in the Fathers which we refuse Thirdly we grant that we hold many negatiues against our aduersaries in the Church of Rome which are not expresly controlled or condemned by the Fathers in that maner that we condemne them that is to say directly purposely and namely but onely by discourse and consequence from those truths which they maintaine and those errors which they condemne in the heretiks of their times The reason is because in the Fathers daies such errors now denied and refused by vs were not broached but came vp since and the Fathers could not denie or speake against that which was not then in rerum natura This is the true reason why we denie sundrie things that the Fathers in their time denied not 2 These three things being granted that which we obiect against the Repliers Catalogue is that the ancient Fathers in their writings neither defend nor acknowledge the substantiall articles of Papistry wherein we really differ There is q You mâ—y see it in the Pref. before B. Iewels workes of the last impression And in the Pref. of THE WAY n. 15. And in the Councel of Trent at the end a new Creed made by the Councell of Trent and imposed vpon all men to beleeue the articles whereof are particularly expounded in the decrees and catechisme of the said Councel and in the writings of the moderne Schoole-men and Iesuites LET THEM SHEW IF THEY CAN THAT THE DOCTRINE CONTAINED IN THAT CREED
AND IN THE WRITINGS OF THESE MEN TOVCHING THE SCRIPTVRES SACRAMENTS CHVRCH POPE COVNCELS TRANSVBSTANTIATION IMAGES INVOCATION OF SAINTS IVSTIFICATION GOOD WORKS c. WAS THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHVRCH AND PROFESSED BY THE BISHOPS OF ROME FATHERS AND COVNCELS EXPRESSED IN THE FIRST 800 YEARES OF THIS CATALOGVE this is our obiection whereto the Replier answers that he can retort it more strongly against the Protestants c. But this is but wind and so let it passe and come we forward to the substance of his answer CHAP. XLIII 1. Whatsoeuer the Fathers of the Primitiue Church beleeued is expressed in their bookes 2. The Replier is driuen to say they held much of his religion onely implicitely What implicite faith is according to the Papists The death of Zeuxis The Fathers write that which cannot stand with Papistrie Pag. â—67 A. D. Secondly I answer that to say there be diuers points held by vs whereof no mention is made in those ancient Fathers is no good argument to proue that which we hold was not holden by them For this is Argumentum ab authoritate negatiua which argument is of no force to proue this point vnles it be first proued that those Fathers held nothing explicitè or implicitè which is not expresly to be fouÌ„d in their writings But this my aduersaries will neuer be able to proue Now on the contrary side we can shew good reasons or at least probable presumptions sufficient to proue first that they held more then is expressed in their writings Secondly that they held explicitè or implicitè the same in all points of doctrine which we hold First I say we haue reason to thinke that they held more then is expressed in their writings because since ordinarily the writings of these Fathers were not by them set out of purpose to expresse in particular euery thing that they held implicitè or explicitè concerning all matters of faith but rather were written vpon some speciall occasion it is to be thought that their writings contain only some parts of the doctrine to wit so much of it as was that requisite to be written vpon that special occasion The which is confirmed euen by experience of these our times in which although learned men do ordinarily set downe more expresly in Catechismes bookes of controuersies c what the Catholik faith is in diuers points then formerly it hath bin set downe as they haue more occasion by reason of more heresies daily arising then learned men of former ages when those heresies were not haue had Yet no learned man now adaies writeth euery thing which explicitè or implicitè he beleeueth to be the Catholick faith For euery Catholicke man beleeueth explicitè or implicitè all that is contained in Scriptures and traditions in that he beleeueth whatsoeuer was reuealed by God to the Apostles deliuered by them in word or writing to the Catholicke Church and which the Church in Scriptures and vnwritten traditions propoundeth and deliuereth to vs diuers particulars whereof are not necessary to be expresly knowne to or written by any particular learned man of any age but are alwaies preserued at least in the implicite or infolded faith of the Church the which infolded faith of the Church may and shall be vnfolded the holy Ghost still assisting and suggesting all the aforesaid reuealed truth as necessitie shall require that the truth should be in any point expresly declared which necessitie chiefly is when some new heresie ariseth oppugning particularly the truth of that point 1 HEre he sayes the Fathers named in his Catalogue might hold what the church of Rome holds though there be no mentioÌ„ therof in their writings because they might hold that which is not expresly in their writings We had thought vntil now that this had bin a plain demonstration The ancient Fathers in all their writings make no mention of diuers points of the Popish religion Ergo they held them not Or thus What religion the Fathers held that they mention in their writings But the Popish religion they mention not in their writings Ergo they held not the Popish religion But he hauing good experience that the second proposition is true denies the first and will shew either by good reasons or probable presumptions that they held more then they mention and expresse in their bookes Wherein at once he hath destroyed his Catalogue and laid his religion open to the scorne of women and children For if the Fathers in all their writings handled nothing but the cause of religion teaching expounding and defending it against Iewes Gentiles hereticks schismatickes whereby they could not but mention what they held and yet neuer mentioned diuers points of Poperie it is plaine they neuer held them But the Iesuite sayes this is Argumentum ab authoritate negatiua which is not good they might hold either explicitè or implicitè that which they haue not expressed Wherein you must marke his tergiuersation For to shew a visible Church in all ages professing openly his Romane faith that all men may see it he tenders this catalogue But when we bid him proue that the Fathers of the first 600 or 800 yeares beleeued and professed that part of his Romane faith which the Church of England reiects that it may appeare so to vs and we may see it he sayes he can shew good reasons and presumptions that they beleeued more then is expressed in their writings whereas he should shew by their WRITINGS that they held and beleeued as the Romish Church now doth because it is impossible to shew what they held but by their writings and himselfe sayes in another place We cannot haue any certaintie of things past but by the writings of those times And if he will haue his Church to be so visible in the Fathers time and those Fathers to be so eminent members thereof good reason men see it yet see it they cannot by presumptions but by their writings 2 But he sayes We haue reason to thinke that they held more then expressed in their writings forsomuch as no man writes euery thing which explicitè or implicitè he beleeues I answer though it be granted that both they and we in all our writings may omit some things not belonging to faith or religion yet many articles of faith such as our aduersaries say theirs are the deniall whereof they call schisme and damnable herersie and persecute with fire sword and gun-powder cannot but be expressed for so much as such articles are simply needfull vnto saluation and are the grounds and conclusions of all theologicall writing and discourse Secondly it is impertinent to the obiection which denies the Fathers of the first 600 yeares to haue done that which the Catalogue sayes they did professed VISIBLY as the Romane Church now doth which obiection is not satisfied by saying they might explicitè or implicitè professe that they neuer writ because no man writes all he beleeues but by shewing in their writings this
VISIBLE profession of the Romish faith for so much as nothing is VISIBLE that cannot be shewed in their writings Thirdly this answer debarres our aduersaries for euer from alledging the Fathers for their Romish faith which I shew thus First the Iesuites promise is that he will assigne a continuall visible Church professing his now Romane faith for that is the thing vndertaken to name in all ages the names of such as successiuely professed the religion now maintained by the Church of Rome Secondly to effect this he sets downe his catalogue containing the Bishops Doctors and Councels that were in the first 600 yeares Thirdly we obâ—ect that these Bishops Doctors and Councels in diuers things that is to say in all the substantiall points wherein the Church of Rome and we dissent beleeued not as the now Church of Rome doth because such points are not mentioned in their writings To this he answers that they held more either explicitè or implicitè then is expresly to be found in their writings This answer supposeth one of these three things either that they both held and writ expresly those diuers things which we denie or that they writ them not but held them explicitè or that they writ them not nor held them explicitè but held them onely implicitè The first he grants they did not but answers that they beleeued diuers things they writ not Neither is the second for what they held explicitè they writ But the third that they held diuers points of Papistrie onely implicitè is the answer Now this is it that laies all those points of Papistrie on Gods cold earth and shewes them not to haue bene knowne to the Fathers For a Rosel v. Fides n. 2 Altisiod l 3 tract 3. c. 1. q. 5 Dionys 3. d. 25. qu. vnic to beleeue implicitè is to beleeue as the Church beleeues as when a man is demanded whether Christ be borne of the virgin Marie or whether there be one God and three persons he answers that he cannot tell but beleeues touching these things as the Church holdeth And as the Repliar himselfe here expounds it To beleeue whatsoeuer was reuealed by God in word or writing to the Church diuers particulars whereof are not necessary to be knowne or written expresly at all times but this vnfolded faith shall be vnfolded as necessity shall require that is when some heresie arises oppugning the truth of the point which is thus implicitely beleeued Hence it followes that he confesses these Fathers Doctors and Bishops mentioned in the first 600 yeares of this catalogue knew not professed not defended not taught not diuers points of the now Romane faith because in their times they were not points of faith but made so since and therfore by his owne confession they held them onely in this sence that they beleeued and taught whatsoeuer the Church should after their time vnfold by which deuice they may also be said to haue beleeued and visibly professed that the Moone is made of a greene cheese or any thing that the Church of Rome shall hereafter deuise whatsoeuer it be for they implicitely beleeued all the faith of the Church and this coyning of new doctrines shall be but vnfolding some part of the Churches faith that was infolded before and so the Fathers shall be iustified to haue beleeued any thing and the Romane Church to haue bin visibly succeeding in them that neuer vnderstood her doctrine Is this then the meaning of the catalogue that so gloriously he displaies and are all those brags shew vs a visible Church in all ages as we do you our faith is no other but what the ancient Doctors held what they held I hold what they taught I teach what they beleeued I beleeue resolued into this poore shift They beleeued as we do at least implicitely Is this the antiquitie of our Romish Church and can her age be painted no better then thus Were so many diuerse points of her faith beleeued by the ancient Church onely infoldly and vpon condition If this Romane Church after 600 or 1000 yeares should vnfold them where then is the visibilitie of these things in the Church of the Fathers and the light thereof that shined so clearly in their daies Zeuxis the painter b Zuing Theat pag. 1201. they say choked him selfe with laughing at the picture of an old woman that he had drawne in a table His owne conceit with beholding the wrinkles and shadowes and lookes he had set vpon her face so affected him that he which had but a little before drawne the beautie and youth of Helena to the admiration of others with a foolish counterfet of old age killed himselfe And I am perswaded that our aduersaries this Replier and his fellows when they behold the picture of this good old wife their mother the Papacie how ridiculously they haue drawne it making her to looke elder then she is by so many hundred yeares and hanging it forth for the counterfet of antiquitie cannot at the least but smile at their owne deuice to thinke how they mocke both others and themselues if they make not others burst with laughter But to quit this deuice of the Fathers holding implicitely that which is not expressed in their writings let my replier consider that they not onely make no mention of the things which we denie but they write that which by all consequence and discourse ouerthrowes them Though therfore we allow them a litle of the implicite faith which God wot they neuer dreamed of it being a deuice of the latter School-men to serue another purpose yet they could not implicitè beleeue any thing which would be opposite to that they mention and hold expresly as those things are opposite which the Replier confesses to be the diuers things they beleeued implicitè and their Church hath now vnfolded against new heresies that are arisen Thus I reason the Fathers held contrary to that which the Church of Rome now holds ergo they beleeued it not implicitly For implicite faith holds nothing that is coÌ„trary to that which is explicite Again if they only held implicitely what the Church of Rome now holds and not explicitely hence it followes that the Romane faith in such points cannot be visibly shewed in the Fathers for to be visible and to be onely implicitè are contrary in as much as no man can see or discerne that which is implicite so the Romish faith may be shewed in a catalog of Turks as wel as in a catalog of the Fathers by the Iesuits distinctioÌ„ CHAP. XLIIII 1. The whole Christian faith deliuered to the Church hath succeeded in all ages yet many corruptions haue sometime bene added How and in what sence the Church may erre 2. A Catalogue assigned of those in whoÌ„ the Protestants faith alway remained 3. What is required to the reason of successioÌ„ Pag. 268. A. D. Secondly I said that the ancient Fathers of the Primitiue Church did hold explicitè or
implicitè all points of faith that we hold This will appeare by these ensuing considerations First it is certaine that the Apostles taught the whole corpse of Christian doctrine partly by word partly by writing which as a sacred depositum was commended by S. Paul to S. Timothy and other succeeding Bishops and Pastors of the Church to be maintained alwaies in the Church against all profane innouation of heresies in these words O Timothy keepe the depositum auoiding the profane nouelties of voices oppositions of falsly called knowledge which diuers promising haue erred about the faith The which words * Aduers haer c. 17. Vincentius Lyrinensis expoundeth thus Who saith he at this day hath the place of Timothy but either the whole Church or especially the whole bodie of Prelats who ought themselues to haue the whole knowledge of diuine religion and also to instruct others And a litle after What is meant by this Depositum it is saith he that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee that which thou hast receiued not that which thou hast deuised a thing not of wit but of learning not of priuate vsurpation but of publicke tradition a thing brought to thee not a thing brought forth of thee wherein thou must not be an author but a keeper not an institutor but a secretor not a leader but a follower Keepe the Depositum preserue the talent of the Catholicke faith pure and sincere that which is committed to thee let that remain with thee and that deliuer vnto the people To the same purpose S. Irenaeus saith * l. 3. c. 14. We must not seeke the truth among others which is easie to receiue from the Church when the Apostles haue most fully laid vp all the truth in it as in a rich treasure house Also the same Irenaeus saith * l. 4. c. 43. We must heare and obey those Priests who haue succession from the Apostles who with succession of their Episcopall function haue receiued the Charisma of truth Now supposing that this sacred depositum of the whole corpse of the reuealed truth is preserued in one or other succession of Pastors of one or other companie of Christians called the Church either it must be granted that it was preserued in that succession of Pastors which my catalogue sheweth or else I must require my aduersaries to set forth another catalogue of Pastors vnto whom this sacred depositum was committed and from whom we may receiue it as need shall require For to say that the diuine truth committed to the custody of the Pastors whom God hath appointed to be alwaies in the Church of purpose to preserue men from wauering in faith Eph. 4 v. 13.14 and from being caried about with euery wind of false doctrine did at any time wholy or in part by contrary error faile in them vniuersally in such sort that there should not in all ages be sound one or other company of Pastors and Priests whom we could know still to keep the Depositum inuiolate and entire and whom consequently according to Irenaeus his saying we ought to obey as being men l. 4. ◠4. who with succession of their Episcopall function receiued also the Charisma of truth if I say this were so that Gods truth all or in part had explicitè and implicitè perished from the mouth of all knowne Priests and Pastors Gods ordinance it selfe who for the generall good of the Church appointed these Pastors had bin deficient or had failed of the intended effect Eph. 4. v. 13.14 For how should men be preserued from wauering in faith or from being caried about with euery wind of false doctrine by Pastors appointed to be for that purpose vnto the worlds end if in some ages no such Pastors were or were not to be knowne or being knowne to be the Pastors yet did vniuersally faile to preserue the entire formerly receiued truth by beleeuing and teaching and so making the people beleeue contrary errors If this were so the holy Ghost had failed to teach the Church all truth and consequently Christs promise had not bin performed which said that the Spirit of truth shall teach all truth Ioh. 16. v. 13. Some Pastors therefore alwaies are in the Church who without spot or wrinkle of any error in faith shall preserue the entire truth and by the assistance of Christ and his holy Spirit shall be able as need shall require to vnfold and deliuer to the people the same truth thereby to preserue them from falling into error and from wauering in faith 1 THat the Apostles taught the whole bodie of Christian doctrine and commended the same to the succeeding Pastors of the Church to be alway maintained without innouation and that as Vincentius and Irenaeus speake the faithfull people of the Church were to be taught the truth by these Pastors shall be granted for what the Apostles reuealed and deliuered from Iesus Christ the same they intended should be continued for euer in the Church But this proues not that the ancient Fathers of the Primitiue Church held all things that the Church of Rome now holds vnlesse my aduersarie can shew that euery thing holden in the Church of Rome is part of the Bodie of that Christian doctrine which the Apostles commended to their successors For ouer besides the truth reuealed by the Apostles the church of Rome successiuely by degrees in these last 800 years especially hath brought in diuers pernicious and damnable errors and corruptions touching Traditions Transubstantiation Images Iustification the Masse the Popes primacie the worship of Saints innumerable other points wherin we haue forsaken it the which corruptions not belonging to the bodie of Christian doctrine which the Apostles taught but being a disease that bred in the body of the Church must not be said to haue bin the faith of the Fathers who receiued nothing from the Apostles but that doctrine which is contained in the canon of the Bible besides which doctrine if either the Fathers or Pastors of the Church succeeding taught any thing it must be reiected as no part of the Depositū mentioned Thus my answer is plain that the Apostles deliuered to their successors to be preserued against all innouation the whole Christian doctrine but the seuerall articles of the now Romish faith which we haue cast off are no part of that Christiā doctrine Secondly my aduersarie replies that it was the mind of the Apostles and the ordinance of God not onely that the whole bodie of the truth should be preserued in some successiō or other but also that it should be preserued so inuiolate and entire that no contrary error should be taught with it which being supposed he sayes it must be granted that it hath bin so preserued in that succession of Pastors which his Catalogue sheweth because the Protestāts are able to shew no other Pastors His whole discourse affirmes two things the first that the bodie of Christian
Fathers held is holden at this day by Pastors of our Church or at least may stay him from thinking that the same faith is not holden If all that view his foresaid considerations proue indifferent either to the cause or of indifferent iudgement that which is holden this day by the Pastors of the Repliars Church will not be deemed the same doctrine which the ancient Fathers held I say vpon his foresaid considerations it cannoy be deemed so he may haue new considerations or something else in store to stay men and if I meet it it shall be answered but this foresaid is too absurd for first I deny not the Catalogue of Pastors for the first 600 yeares whereof the question in this place is to be of such as preserued the truth inuiolate but affirme those very persons to haue bin the true Pastors of the true Church would my selfe giue them vp for a catalogue of such assigne no other but I require the Repliar to make it manifest against the obiection that they held as their iudgment and professed as their faith those speciall points of Popery that we renounce And let him not reply that they held and professed them at least implicitè but say ingenuously whether they be to be found in their books for example Transubstantiation the sacrifice of the Masse the worship of images the Popes primacy and Monarchy ouer the world The which point not being shewed in his foresaid considerations but directly auoided by a cōceit of their beleeuing at least implicitè how may an indifferent man see or by staying neuer so long hope to see the Papacy in the Fathers 4 Againe he sayes if his aduersaries will deny the Catalogue of Pastors which he hath set downe to be of such as haue preserued the truth he must require them to assigne another of their owne And Secondly to note the first Pastor in his Catalogue that failed in preseruing the truth And Thirdly in assigning our Catalogue not to assigne such as are ordinarily answered by Catholicke authors but some plaine instances which his demand if it cānot be answered as he is sure it cannot then the Repliar concludes euery discreet man may if he will driue out his owne wit to make roome for Ad 1 his To the first all the Papists aliue cannot by good discourse driue vs to assigne a Catalogue it being sufficient to say that no doctrine wants lineall succession that accords with the Scripture neuerthelesse for the first 600 yeares we assigne the Church wherein the Fathers liued and for the rest to this day we will assigne no other Catalogue thē the Church of Rome it selfe wherin many of those whom the Repliar hath couched in his Catalogue professed the foundation of the truth that wee Ad 2 maintaine To the second I answered in THE WAY so fully Ad 3 that the Iesuite had no list to reply To the third those particular men whom we name and this blatant beast calls a rabble of ragged heretickes were Gods deare children and better professors of the truth then the reuerend ranke of his Popes and Friars who were and yet are nothing else but the great Antichrist that was prophesied should fit in the Church of God among whom these men and many ordinary Pastors and people of the Church of Rome liuing and holding the foundation of faith and in the agony of their conscience renouncing the damnable heresies of the Papacy it cannot be denied but the Church of Rome it selfe affoords vs a Catalogue sufficient For the Repliar is too simple and deceaues himselfe if he thinke we place the Church onely in Berengarius Wickliffe Husse Ierome the Waldenses and the rest of that sort But we name them as some particular eminent members in the Church of Rome for so we terme all these westerne parts by reason of the Patriarchie lesse corrupted then were many others and vnto them we adde all others in the said Church that held the articles of faith either in solid or in part though it were Occham Gerson Armachanus Cesenas Ardeus Potho Sauanarola or any such for albeit they held many errors yet the truth among their errors was preserued and I affirme that it is sufficient for the succession of the Church and being of the faith if the parts thereof and all the seuerall particulars belonging to saluation can be shewed to haue bene held in any Church albeit no one man in the same or in the world can be shewed to haue holden them all entirely himselfe That * Prot. Apolog. tract 2. c. 2. sect 3.4.5.6 7. our aduersaries may see they do but trifle away the time when they labour so contentiously to shew that Wicklife or Husse or the Albingenses differed in some things from vs no member of the Church in the world being at all times free from euery spot and wrinkle of error CHAP. XLV 1. The Fathers are not against the Protestants but with them 2. Touching the Centuries reiecting of the Fathers The cause of some errors in the Fathers 3. Gregories Faith conuerting England 4. The Papists haue bene formall innouators 5. How they excuse the matter A. D. In which point if he desire to be more fully satisfied Pag. 271. let him reade Iodocus Coccius his Booke intituled Catholicus thesaurus controuersiarum in which he shall see particularly set downe point by point the ancient Fathers with vnanime consent testifying for vs against Protestants The which to be so in many points the Magdeburgians being themselues famous Protestants do likewise testifie who hauing taken great paines in seeking ancient histories and monuments of the Fathers writings to see if they could finde any testimony of authority to countenance their cause are forced at last to acknowledge the ancient Fathers to testifie in many things against them and for vs all which their testimonies they thinke to wipe away with saying that these were the errors or blemishes of these Fathers which is as good a iest as if a guilty person being desirous to cleare himselfe at the barre by the witnesse of honest men and hauing diligently sought and finding that all honest men will beare witnesse against him yet to make a shew wil needs bring in a number of honest substantial men bidding them to giue their verdit of purpose that when they all haue deliuered the truth See the Protestants Apology where these points are hādled largely Tract 1 sect 1. deinceps he may forsooth say they all lie or are deceaued This also to be so is shewed in the Protestants Apologie where particularly is proued out of diuerse learned Protestant writers first that the faith we professe is the same that Saint Gregory professed and by Saint Austine the Monke taught vs English men at our first conuersion Secondly that the same faith was vniuersally professed for sundry ages before and namely that it agreed in substance with the first faith to which the Brittans were conuerted in the Apostles
those things that are written in the Scriptures or to bring in any thing that is not written Of images Epiphanius e Ep. ad Ioh. Ierosol sayes It is against the authority of the Scripture that the image of a man should hang in the Church And * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the making of statues resembling the images of the dead he calls an idolatrous and a diuellish practise And speaking of worshipping the image of the blessed Virgin which now is so commonly seene painted and attired f Pingitur cincinnis exculta vestibus ornatissimis pompa adeo inani structa vt illi etiam vniones ab auribus pendeant quod nemo possit sine stomacho aspicere Paleot de imag pag. 253. in the fashion like a Lady yea g Vestientes dominam nostram Magdalenam alias sanctas ornamentis profanis vanis ac meretricijs quibus etiam pudicae matronae sese vestire vererentur Nauar manual c. 11. n. 23. like a Curtisan and keeps such a court at Lauretto in the same place where h Leand. Albert descript Ital. in Picen pag. 428. sometime Iuno kept hers he addes that thereby men are drawne a whoring from God the body of Mary being holy but not God and shee an honorable Virgin but not giuen to be adored but her selfe adoring him that shee bare in her wombe Of the Supremacy which now the Pope vses ouer all other Bishops Gregorie who in his third argument the Repliar sayeth professed his religion i Lib 6. ep 30. sayes he will confidently auouch him to be the forerunner of Antichrist whosoeuer he be that desires to be called vniuersall Bishop proudly preferring himselfe before others Of images of the Trinity Gregory the second k 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Epist ad Leo. Isaur Imp. sayes they may not be made Of Purgatory it is cleare that the Greeke Church neuer beleeued it So saith Nilus l 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nil de purgat p. 118. l. 1. Our Fathers neuer taught vs Purgatory neither did the Easterne Church euer beleeue it Roffensis m Artic. 18. No man now doubts of Purgatory and yet among the ancient there is little or no mention made of it yea the Greekes to this day beleeue it not and the Latins haue not with one consent conceiued the truth of this thing For the beleefe of Purgatory was not so needfull for the Primitiue Church as now it is Of the number of Sacraments which n Trid. conc sess 7. can 1. our Aduersaries will needs haue to be seauen Cassander o Consult art 13. §. de numero sacram sayes we do not reade the other Sacraments confirmation matrimony orders penance vnction by those ancient writers to be cōprehended in any certaine number nor shall you hastily find any before Peter Lumbard that determined any certaine or definite number of them Of the peoples receiuing the cup in the Sacrament p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Clē const p 145. Venet. the constitutions of Clemens say Let the whole Laity in order with feare and reuerence receiue the cup. By which few examples the Reader may discerne how vntrue it is that Coccius hath particularly set downe point by point the ancient Fathers with vnanime consent against the Protestants who hath brought nothing out of them to that purpose which is not clearely and sufficiently answered by * Jn the most waighty controuersies he is answered by M. Perkins in his Problema our Diuines in euery controuersie 2 His second argument is the testimony of those that writ the Centuries Who being themselues famous Protestants testifie this to be so in many points This argument was obiected in q THE WAY §. 44 Digr 47. his Treatise and fully answered and therfore should not haue bene repeated againe before my answer had bene auoided Yet a little I will satisfie him First if the Magdeburgenses acknowledge the Fathers in many points to be for the Papists which they no where do yet that is not all the Fathers with vnanime consent point by point in all points Some particular Fathers the Repliar knowes well enough speake that which hath no vnanime consent of the rest and their priuate opinions may giue colour to many things and yet will not reach from point to point Next it is false that is here reported of the Centuries They testifie no more but what they thought that Fathers held corruptly and themselues iudged to be errors and blemishes in their writings There is no Romish writer at this day but he doth the same Baronius in his Annals purposely intended against the Centuries hath not left one Father or one ancient history vncensured but still charges it with some error and blemish or other But my Aduersary sayes the things which the Centuries say were blemishes in the Fathers are such points as the Church of Rome now holds whereby it should seeme that in many things they testifie with the Church of Rome against the Protestants I answer first that in some points as the diligentest that are may sometime ouersee and now and then they mistake and call that the opinion or the error of a Father that is not This kind of ouersight we perceiue and pardon in our Aduersaries themselues Secondly diuers things noted by them for errors in the Fathers are not holden by the Church of Rome but are censured also by our Aduersaries themselues as well as by the Centuries Thirdly diuers points in particular Fathers are taxed which belong to that which is now holden in the Church of Rome but this iustifies not the Papists first because in such points there is no vnanime consent of all the Fathers or all the Church but onely the vnsetled and ambulatory opinions of some priuate Doctors Next what these Doctors deliuered touching such points is holden otherwise and to other intents and purposes now in the Church of Rome as their praying for the dead which the Centuries iustly note for a blemish was not with opinion of Purgatory as now it is in Rome Thirdly the mystery of iniquity began to worke in the primitiue Church whereby the fathers themselues though Bishops of the Church and most holy men yet but men sometime were deceiued and brought into error in some things thus it is written of Papias r Baron an 118 n. 2. 6. a Bishop of great authority in the Church and famous for the holines of his life that by misunderstanding ſ Apoc. 20.4 a Text in the reuelation t Prateol elench haeret l. 3. n. 17. Hiero. de scripto c. 18. he gaue occasion of the millenary heresie afterward condemned in the Church yet his credite and estimation was such that many great men followed him Nepos Irenaeus Victorinus Tertullian Lactantius Apollinarius Coracion and diuers others For being a man as u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb hist eccle l. 3. c. vlt. Eusebius sayes
bee in some points which formerly were held as points of faith rather then in the doctrine of the blessed Trinity and Incarnation is because these mysteries are more necessary to be expresly knowne of all sorts then some other points of faith are and consequently men are as they are bound more carefull to get expresse knowledge of them according to the knowne sence expositiō of the Church which Church also hath more expresly determined what is to be holden in these points then in some others which although necessary to be beleeued explicitè or implicitè are not so necessary to be expresly knowne of all sorts 1 IF it cannot be denied as the Repliar denies it not but that in the writings of particular men liuing in these latter ages in the Church of Rome and following the Papacy there be found diuers errors contrary to the faith of the ancient Fathers it must be granted that all such must be wiped out of the catalogue because a So the Reply in the former Chapter n. 1. which is p. 269. of his Reply by promise none are to stand there but onely such as kept the doctrine of the Fathers without innouation Which being done the last 600 yeares at the least will be blanke and the Repliar must seeke new names to furnish them for there is not a particular person named frō an 1000 to an 1600 in the catalogue which had not diuers errors cōtrary to the former faith of the Fathers which the Reader without more ado shall know by this that there is not a boke extant that they writ but our aduersaries at this day haue either purged or forbiddē it or else censured reiected diuers things written in it Which needed not if they had bene those succeeding Pastors which alway maintained the corps of Christian doctrine so grauely talked of a little before And that which the Repliar answers satisfies not the obiection For it is true The Catholicke Church builds not her faith vpon priuate Doctors opinions but the Romane Church which the Repliar contends for and whose succession he demonstrates in his catalogue consists in no other but such Doctors that held such priuate opinions and such people as followed them therein or else let him name if he can any one of his Doctors that held not such priuate opinions or any other Church of his that consisted not in these A man may easily see he can neuer winde himselfe out of this straight And let it be granted also that they were ready to renounce these opinions thus holden against the former faith and to submit themselues to the Church yet the former difficulty returns againe for whether they were thus ready or no yet they swarued from the faith of the Fathers no matter with what minde when the Repliar so confidently bills them in his catalogue for such as preserued the whole corps of the reuealed truth without innouation Thereby vndertaking to name such as in all things trod in the steps of the Fathers without any error that should need submission Againe where and in whom was this Church whereto they were so ready to submit themselues who should reforme them when themselues were the Church for example when Gregory the 7. that was Pope in the 10 age Eugenius the 3. and Boniface the 8. in the 12. Vrbanus 6. and Iohn 22. in the 13. Gregory 12. Iohn 23. Eugenius 4. in the 14. age by schisme error and heresie innouated the faith where was their submission to the Church how could it be when themselues were heads of the Church and how was it done when contrariwise they made opposition against all such as admonished them But the third thing he answers that those priuate D D. deliuer not their said opinions as points of faith is false because they are in such points as are now controuerted betweene vs and the Church of Rome which the Repliar I presume will allow to be no other but points of faith 2 This I had to say touching the obiection as the Repliar hath set it downe fraudulently and maimedly whereas if he had proposed it effectually as we obiected all his answer were impertinent For we say that not onely in particular mens writings are found many things contrary to the former faith of the Fathers but in the doctrine of the Church it selfe as it is practised and expounded by such as are deputed thereunto The which I demonstrated throughout my Booke in euery controuersie by alleadging the wordes of the chiefest and most eminēt writers in the Church of Rome expounding the doctrine holden in the said Church There being indeed very little of their religion but some or other among them so expound it and so teach the Church-meaning therein that it is easie to see the ancient faith to be innouated thereby And I care not though my aduersary begin his answer with a little confidence It seemes M. White hath with great paines raked together all the riffe raffe and odde opinions and spent his time in seeking the sinkes and sweeping together odde sentences of some Catholicke authors c. For his leane and lancke cause had neede of bombast but whosoeuer shall enquire what M. White alleadged shall well perceaue the Popish D D. whom he hath raked together to be the eminentest men that were in the Church of Rome and their doctrine and opinions cited so farre as I haue refused it to be riffe raffe indeed and such as lies in sinkes and sweepings but yet such riffe raffe as the Romish Church it selfe now turned into a sinke of all filthy heresie pestered with the sweepings of all the false doctrine and errors of old heretickes maintaines and offers to the world for sound religion as I haue shewed in the beginning of this booke where the speech of Mic. Bayus the onely instance that the Repliar thought good to make of my charging his Church with priuate Doctors opinions which he will not deny to be part of the riffe raffe and sweepings here mentioned is proued to containe no other matter then is generally holden by others and to be the doctrine of the Church of Rome as certainely as any other that himselfe can assigne to be the doctrine 3 This therefore is it I say that the errors obiected to the Doctors and Schoolemen of the Church of Rome and the manifold absurdities which I haue obserued in them alleadging their wordes in my Booke are a sufficient argument to proue the Church of Rome wherein they liued and whose Pastors they were to hold contrary to the Fathers and to be departed from the Apostolicke faith And all this furniture of wordes to the contrary is but a desperate shift to auoide the inconuenience that followes vpon it For first the vniuersall faith of the Catholicke Church is not discredited by the priuate opinions of particular Authors This I graunt and will yeeld my selfe to be both vaine and shallow witted if the things I haue alleadged out of Popish Authors be
vbi sup Fourthly the Feast of the Conception which imports she was without sinne is celebrated 5 Vasq vbi sup In which regard sayes Vasquez it would seeme verie strange to me if the Church should euer define she was conceiued in sinne when by her authoritie she hath alreadie commaunded the Feast of the Conception in token she was not conceiued in sinne and the common consent of Catholicks both vulgar and Diuines contending for the immaculate conception without sinne Suarez q Vbi sup prop. 4. sayes Sixtus Quartus did much fauour it whose decree the Councell of Trent approues and the whole Church doth vehemently leane to it that now the contrarie can haue either none at all or no firme or euident foundation But the truth is it is fully defined in the Councell of Basill Hitherto r Sess 36. sayes the Councell a difficult question hath bene made touching the Conception of the glorious Virgin We hauing diligently seene and examined the reasons define and declare that the doctrine which teaches her neuer to haue bene actually subiect to sinne but alwayes free from it and from all actuall sinne to be consonant to the religion OF THE CHVRCH AND CATHOLICKE DOCTRINE and that it shall be lawfull for no man hereafter to teach the contrarie moreouer we renew the ordinance made for the celebrating of this holy conception on the 6. of the Ides of December Whereby we see how false it is that it is not held as a point of faith For building themselues vpon this decree and vpon Å¿ Cum Praeexcelsa Graue nimis in extrau comm another of Sixtus Quartus whereto the t Sess 5. §. Declarat tamen Councell of Trent manifestly giues way by confirming the conceit u Almain Clictouae Titlem reported by Vasq Suar. vbi sup the forwarder sort of our aduersaries affirme it resolutely to be a point of faith defined by the Church But whether it be true or no that the faith of their Church is nothing but what this froward generation will confesse to be defined by the Pope by this it is plaine that touching this point the Pastors and Doctors and people of the Romane church differ from antiquitie Vasquez w Communis consensus Catholicorum non solùm imperiti vulgi sed etiam Doctorum Theolâ—gorum pro immaculata conceptione pugnat Vasq vbi sup sayes expresly Not onely that vnskilfull vulgar but the Doctors and Diuines and all Catholickes with one consent fight for the immaculate conception What immodestie is it now to denie that to be the Churches faith which is thus holden and to say it is not diligently digested that is thus concocted in the conceits not onely of the vulgar but of the Doctors and Diuines and all Catholickes with one consent in the Church of Rome CHAP. L. 1. Touching Seruice and Prayer in an vnknowne language 2. The Text of 1. Cor. 14. expounded and defended against Bellarmine 7. The ancient Church vsed prayer in a knowne language A. D. Secondly touching Latin Seruice although M. White say as it is easie to say that all antiquitie is against vs in this point Pag. 279. White p. 343. yet he will neuer be able to proue solidely that the ancient Church did condemne this our practise The words of the Apostle which he alledgeth proue nothing to the purpose as is shewed by Bellarmine and as for other authors which he citeth they do not disallow this this our practise Bellar. l. 2. de verb. Del. c 16. or account it vnlawfull whereas both by reason and authoritie our authors shew it to be both lawfull and laudable See Bellarmine lib. 2. de verbo Dei cap. 15. 1 THe vse of the Church of Rome to haue the publicke Seruice and Prayers and ministration of Sacraments in an vnknowne tongue is well enough knowne This I affirmed to be against antiquitie and a point wherein they haue altered the faith of the ancient Church And first I alledged the words of Saint Paul then the testimonie and confession of other Ecclesiasticall writers to all which he answers nothing but referres me to Bellarmine In which absurd course if I would imitate him I might also referre him to such as haue answered Bellarmine and the reader that expected to see the thing tried betweene vs should be deluded Neuerthelesse I will doe my best to bring this broode of darknesse to the light and euery thing that I haue said to the triall that the truth may appeare and the shame be theirs that turne their backes 2 First he sayes I will neuer be able soundly to proue that the auncient Church condemned this their practise I answer the Apostle condemnes it in the words a 1. Cor. 14.7 alledged If an instrument of musicke make no distinction in the sound how shall it be knowne what is piped or harped So likewise you vnlesse by the language you vtter words that haue signification how shall it be vnderstood what is spoken for you shall speake in the aire I will pray and sing with the spirit and I will pray and sing with the vnderstanding also Else when thou blessest with the Spirit how shall he that occupies the roome of the vnlearned say Amen at thy giuing of thankes seeing he knowes not what thou sayest I had rather in the Church to speake fiue words with my vnderstanding that I might also instruct others then a thousand words in a strange tongue No enemie that the Church of Rome hath can more fully condemne Seruice in an vnknowne language nor in more effectuall termes speake against it For be requires all that which is done in the Church be it Exhortation Prophecie Singing Expounding or Praying to be done in a language that the people present vnderstands and rebukes the contrary All that the Replier sayes hereto is that Bellarmine hath shewed these words proue nothing Which is his policie to auoide the scanning of them for he knowes all the learned of his side be so deuided in their answer to these words that whatsoeuer he should say would fall out to be contrary to that which others affirme For the auoiding of which inconuenience he referres vs to Bellarmine as if in him we should find a iust answer and full satisfaction But he abuses the Reader as shall plainly appeare by propounding the summe and substance of all that Bellarmine sayes to the place First he sayeth It is certaine the Apostle in a great part of this chapter speakes not of the reading of the Scripture nor concerning the Seruice of the Church but of certaine spirituall exhortations and conferences then vsed Touching this point how true or false soeuer it be I will not greatly stand with him but then it is as certaine that in a great part of this Chapter he speakes of Church-seruice and prayers and of reading the Scripture as well as of spirituall conferences and collations So his patron Gretser that hath lately vndertaken to defend all his
people liuing in mariage yet haue not their secret cohabitation much reported but whether they companied together or no the examples shew they were married they dwelt together in one house they had children and brought them vp together which liberty the Church of Rome now denies The Councell of Constantinople p Est auâ—em etiam vniuersalis Bals p. 194. which was vniuersall q See Simanch institut tit 4. n. 38. and the canons thereof legitimate r Can 13. allowes both the marriage and cohabitation and saies it is the ancient Apostolicall constitution Å¿ Socr. l 1. c. 11. gr Zozom l. 1. c. 23. gr the like did Paphnutius in the first Councell of Neece t The WAY 2. edit p. 344. I alledged a place in Zonaras vpoÌ„ the canons which here I will put into English The Apostles in the canon say that if a Priest vnder the pretence of religion put his wife he shall be excluded excommunicate till he receaues her againe but if he perseuere and will not receaue her againe he shall be degraded because it seems to be done in reproch of marriage as if the mixture of man and wife were vncleannesse Whereas the Scripture saies marriage is honourable and the bed vndefiled The cannon also mentions Bishops hauing wiues because AT THAT TIME THE LAVVFVLL COHABITATION OF BISHOPS WITH THEIR WIVES WAS NOT FORBIDDEN Our aduersaries answer that this custome was but in the Greeke Church and not in the West But what was not the Greeke Church especially in those times the Church of God and haue not they altered the ancient faith that haue altered that which was vniuersall in the most famous Churches of the world and hath not the Pope in the West hereby shewed himselfe to be an Antichristian hereticke that condemnes the vniuersall doctrine of so famous a Church But the West Church also allowed the same liberty till the tyranny of the Pope as u The WAY digr 51. n. 10. I shewed exstinguist it * Scot. 4. d. 47. Ios Angl. Flo. ril in 4 p. 386. Antidid Colon. p. 128. Coster Enchir. p. 517. Greg. Val tom 4. d. 9. q 5. punct 5. All Papists I thinke will grant that maried Ministers were ordained in the Apostles * Mariana pro edit vulg p. 47. times and after yea such as had bene twise maried So to maior y Comment in Tit. c. 1. §. vnius vxotis saies it must be confessed and graunted that of old in the Primitiue Church reason of the small number of Ministers maried Bishops and Priests were vsed by indulgence That indulgence is Sotoes conceit and not the truth as I haue shewed for it is true that the faction against Priests mariage began betimes as appeares by the story of Paphnutius and the Nicene Councell but it was resisted by the godly BB. Dionysius for example the famous Bishop of Corinth a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb p. 41. b. called it a heauy burtheÌ„ not to be imposed on the brethren And therefore b Non horruit illa Tempestate Deus thalamos cunabula taedas Mant Fast 1. and the example of Simplicius before alledged still they maried euen in the West vnder the Romane Patriarchate Marius a Papist c De schism Concil part 3. c. vlt. saies he knowes right well that in the time of Pope Formosus which was 800. yeares after Christ it was permitted and lawfull for Priests to marrie wiues and when the restraint came in he cannot tell though he haue most diligently inquired d Cromer de Orig. gest Polon l. 7. p. 517 In Poland they had their wiues till almost 1200. yeares after Christ e Henr. Hunting p 378. prohibuit ante non prohibitas In England as long f Auentin l. 5. see the WAY pag 377. In Germany France and Italy as long Which I presume the Christian world would not so stiffely haue mainetained if it had bene against the sounder practise of the g See 26. q. 2. sors Clictou de contin c. 4. Church But when they saw it was not forbidden by any law of God but onely opposed first by faction and then by tyrannie they stood as long as they could till they were oppressed by tyrannie Aureolus h 4. d. 37. p 185. saies the common way of holding is that Orders haue the vow of continency annexed by the institution of the Church This is somewhat to shew that God by no diuine law made it so but if he had added that the Church which made this institution had bene a faction first of superstitious persons and then of Antichristian heretickes conducted by the Pope he had said the truth and opened the whole pedigree of it but if he had added further that which i Istud onus quod adhuc quamplurima monstra fecit ab audaci sertur pietaâ—e repertum Mant. Fast l. 1. see Joh Mar. vbi sup not a few of his fellowes supply for him that by leading from Gods ordinance it hath filled their Clergy with all maner of vncleannesse and villanny he had said no more then all the world knowes to be true and will subscribe to CHAP. LIII Wherein is handled the doctrine of the Church of Rome touching the worship of images and the distinctions whereby the same is maintained are examined and our aduersaries finally conuicted of giuing Gods honour to their images The Ancient Church was against image worship A. D. Fiftly touching images whereas M. White * White pag. 344 of the first edit 345. in the second edition Where for shame he addeth a limitation saying some of them hauing in the first edition absolutely said without limitation The Church of Rome worshippeth c saith Pag. 281. that the Church of Rome worshippeth and coÌ„mandeth men to worship them with the very same diuine honour which is due to God himselfe first no man holdeth that the images of Saints are to beworshipped with the very same diuine honour which is due to God because the Saints themselues being more honoured of vs then their images are not honoured with diuine honour Secondly although some say that the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same honour that the Prototypon is yet these be but some and that which is said by these some is not so to be vnderstood as M. White seemeth willing to make his Reader beleeue as though they meant that the verie honour due to our Sauiour should be giuen to the image it selfe which cannot be vnlesse we should be so foolish as to conceaue and iudge that the image it selfe were indeed Christ the Sonne of God which none that hath learned the first rudiments of Christianity can conceaue and iudge Those therefore that vse that manner of speech do onely meane that the image is worshipped with the same worship onely improperly and per accident or at the most Analogicè All which manners are farre from giuing any
speech of Purgatory or none at all and the Latines in the West Church did not all of them together receaue the truth of this matmatter but by little and little neither indeed was the faith either of Purgatory or pardons so needful in the Primitiue Church as now it is We neede no more then this confession of our aduersaries and testimony of the Greeke Church to shew the nouelty of this doctrine 3 And that which the Reply hath added in his margent Prayer for the dead which supposes the beleefe of Purgatory learned Protestants graunt to haue bene generall in the Church long before Saint Austines time is most weake for whatsoeuer learned Protestants say touching the antiquity of prayer for the dead which is impertinent now to be debated it is not true that the vse thereof supposes Purgatory which I will shew most euidently that the Reply may bewaile his cause when he sees no medicine applied to it can recouer or do it good For the Greekes praied for the dead and yet as you haue heard they beleeued not Purgatory And d See the Liturgies of Iames. Basil Chrysost and the rest in the praiers mentioned they praied for * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lit. Iacob the martyrs the B Virgine Iohn Baptist and for all the righteous from Abel to that day yet neither they nor the Church of Rome euer thought them to be in Purgatory Not the Martyres for e Bell. Purg. l. 2. c. 1. they are exempted by priuiledge Not f Rhem. on act 1. the B. Virgine for she had no sinne to purge but was carried immediately to heauen Not the iust from Abel to Christ for g Tho. Argenti 3. d. 22. art 4 p. 35. Gabr. ib. dub 3. Christ at his descent emptied Purgatorie It remaines therefore that their praying for the dead was not because they thought any to be in Purgatorie but by way of commemoration onely So sayes Cabasilas h Nicol. Cabasil exposic Liturg c 33. p. 503. in Bibl. S Pat. edit 1. in his exposition The Priest giues God thankes and offers supplication laying downe the causes of the thankesgiuing and the matter of the supplication The causes of thankesgiuing are the Saints The matter of the supplication are they who are not yet consummate but haue need of prayer For which Saints he offers this reasonable seruice as A THANKES GIVING to God and aboue all the rest for the B. Mother of God who exceedes all sanctity * Nihil pro eis orat Therefore the Priest PRAIES FOR NOTHING for them but rather praies to them that he may be holpen by their praiers * Haec quidem verba habent supplicationeÌ„ ostendunt autem etiam gratiarum actionem Deum praedicant These wordes containe supplication but shew thankesgiuing and praise God the benefactor of mankinde by remembring the persons whom he hath sanctified and almost consummated saying Giue vs the grace which already thou hast giuen the Saints to sanctifie vs as thou hast sanctified them before who are of the same kinde with vs. It was not therefore with an opinion of purgatory that the ancient praied for the dead but in expectation of the resurrection and in remembrance of Gods goodnesse toward them who had begun to glorifie them the consummation whereof they desired For it was a general opinioÌ„ of the Church of those times that the soules of the Saints departed saw not God nor should see him by beatificall vision till the day of iudgement in which regard they praied for the dead that their glorie might be consummate as all faithfull people pray for that good which they beleeue is to come the certaine fruition whereof they apprehend Bartlemew Medina writing vpon Thomas i Bart. Medin 12. qu. 4. art 5. p. 56. edit Bergom an 1586. saies that Almost all the ancient Fathers Iames in his Liturgie Ireneus Iustine Tertullian Clemens Origen Lactantius Victorine Prudentius Ambrose Chrysostome Augustine Theodorit Arethas Oecumenius Theophylactus Euthymius Bernard at the first sight but in the scanning of their wordes both he and the rest of his fellowes bewray it to be at the second sight too deny that the soules of the Saints see God vntill the day of iudgement The like is testified by k Sixt. Senens Bibl. lib. 6. ann 345. Perer. in Gen. l. 3 n. 45. Bellarm. â—e eccl triumph cap. 1. Vieg in Apoc. pag. 334. Riber ibi pag. 198. lun tom 2. pag. 1587. others the triall whereof the curious reader may see in Sixtus Senensis who hath collected together both the names and wordes of the Fathers to that effect that it is the vainest conceit that can be to imagine the ancient Church by praying for the dead intended a Purgatory when they assumed it for certaine that the dead came not into the presence of God till the last day l Luce clarius constat quia perfectorum animae mox vt huius carnis exeunt in celestibus sedibus recipiuntur Flor. Magistr exposit Missae pag. 65â— Which being an error no maruell if they erred in what they built vpon it nothing being sound that is built on a false foundation CHAP. LVIII 1. The Popes Supremacy 2. Single life of votaries 3. The worship of images 4. The Merite of workes 5. The sacrifice of the Masse 6. And the Popish doctrine touching originall sinne all of them innouations 5. The disagreement of Papists in their religion 7. And namely in their doctrine of originall sinne A. D. Secondly he names the Popes Supremacy which he 1 White pag. 376. saieth Pag. 288. began in Boniface the third But how false his assertion is appeareth by that which is shewed by not onely Catholicke but also Protestant Authors Thirdly he nameth Priests marriages to haue bene first restrained by Siricius This also to be false he may learne by 2 Concil Carth 2. can 2 see Prot. apol tr 1 sec 7 nu 3. the Councel of Carthage which signifieth that Priests were restrained from company of wiues long before Siricius his daies euen by the Apostles themselues Siricius might vpon occasion renew the prohibition as also Gregory the seuenth might but the first Authors of that doctrine or practise they were not Fourthly he nameth worship of images to haue bene first brought in by the Nicen Councell But this Councell was so farre from being 3 See Prot. apol tr 1. sec 3. n. 12. the first author of this doctrine as it expressely saith it followed in this point the doctrine of the holy Fathers and Tradition of the Catholicke Church in which the holy Ghost doth inhabite Concerning that which M. White saith 4 White pag. 378. Conc. Nicen 2. touching images see Bellarmine de imag C 8. Fiftly he nameth the doctrine 5 White p. 379. See Bellar. l. 5. de iustif c 2. 3 4 Greg. de Val. tom 2. disp 8. q. 6. p. 2. 4. of Merite of workes to haue begun lately by
in all things that so what the Apostles taught and antiquitie held we also may keepe Thirdly this canon was moued b Sed canones illos spectantes ad continentiam clericorum quoniam ea esse statuta apparent ex admonitione Siritij Romani Pontificis ea de re scribentis ante decennium ad episcopos Affricanos dignum est existimare fuisse alicuius alterius Coneilij Carthaginensis eo tempore post acceptas eiusdem Siritij Papae litteras celebrati Baro. an 397. n. 46. by the suggestion of Siritius and therefore most strongly iustifies my assertion For if the Councell of Carthage restrained Priests mariage and Siritius by his letters and suggestion drew the Councell thereunto then it is plaine Siritius made the restraint The Reply possible will say But the Councell saies the Apostles taught it and antiquity kept it and so the restraint was long before Siritius euen from the Apostles But I answer that he which suggested the motion suggested also the reason and so consequently Siritius mouing the restraint is the author of those words wherein he innouated as well as he did in the canon it selfe All this is plaine against the Replie and most sensibly demonstrates Siritius to be the author Fourthly I answer yet closer to the point that so much as the Bishops consented to was that Clergie men should liue honestly and chastly whether in the state of mariage or single life and not come at their wiues at certaine seasons This I proue First by the answer of the B B. It was said to Aurelius his motion by all the BB. it seemes good to vs all that Bishops Priests and Deacons or such as handle the Sacraments the maintainers of chastity abstaine also from their wiues It is said of all it seemes good that chastitie be maintained in all and of all that serue at the altar Here is no canon that they shall haue no wiues but that contrary their wiues are mentioned and they commanded chastitie which I hope the Replie c Heb. 13.4 dares not deny to be in cohabitation with a mans owne lawfull wife Secondly either the same or another Councell of Carthage at the same time d See Baro. vbi sup Balsam Who puts this canon into the 6 Councell of Carth. p. 310. for many things are printed in one Councell of Carthage that belong to another e Placuit vt presbyteri Episcopi Diaconi proprijs terminis etiam à suis abstineant vxoribus can 74. Synodi Carth. apud Balsam ordained that Priests Bishops and Deacons should abstaine from their wiues AT SET TIMES but other Clergie men should not be vrged thereto but keepe the custome of their Churches It was therefore no part of the Councels minde that they should be restrained mariage or the vse thereof out of those SET TIMES Thirdly Balsamon expounding these canons hath these words f In can 4. Out of this canon which I last cited it is shewed that Priests Deacons and Bishops liued with their wiues neither did the Synod forbid their companie with them but in THEIR SET TIMES that is in THE SET DAIES OF EVERY MANS COVRSE when he was to attend on the altar g In can 74. and note that in the time of this Councell Bishops had their wiues without preiudice with whom yet they did not conuerse in the time of their course for the ministery of Priests was deuided into weekes If therefore the Replie had deuised with long deliberation he could not haue giuen me a better weapon against himselfe then this canon of the Councell of Carthage made by the suggestion of Siritius himselfe and yet obtaining nothing of the Councell but onely abstinence of Priests from their wiues at certaine times 3 Fourthly touching images I shewed two things Both that images of the Trinity were not vsed and that the beginning of image worship was in the second Nicen Councell Touching the images of the Trinitie he bids me see Bellarmine but there is nothing to be seene to the purpose for he alledges neither example nor testimonie that there were any in the Primitiue Church but onely stands to proue them lawfull Now this is not the question but whether the Primitiue Church vsed or permitted them I shewed no by the testimonie of a Pope and a Councell and must be answered againe by disproouing the authority which if he cannot do I will not giue much for Bellarmines prouing of the lawfulnesse when it appeares the Pope and a Councell 800 yeares agoe misliked it and himselfe confesses That it is not so certaine whether the images of God or the Trinitie may bee made as it is that the images of Christ and his Saints may be made and that a Abul in Sent. 4. q. 5. Durand 3. d. 9. q. 2 Peres tradit 3. tract most learned Doctors in the Church of Rome vtterly condemne it For if this be true himselfe had a good steele conscience when he would take vpon him to iustifie that which was not certaine but onely an vnsetled opinion gainesaied by as learned as himselfe in his owne Church Touching the Nicen Councell he saies it was so far from being the first author of image worship that it saies expresly it followed in this point the doctrine of the holy Fathers and tradition of the Church Now sure this is a poore answer and like the former of Siritius For is it therefore the doctrine of the Fathers and tradition of the Church because they say it could not they that decreed idolatrie learne of their images to tell a lie Is there any more truth in their pretence of antiquitie then in the image worship it selfe This is like the former example of the Councell of Cathage where the restraint of mariage must be by the Apostles because Siritius that made the restraint suggests so much to the Councell But let the Repliar heare me a word with patience of this paltrie Nicen Councell b Ch. 48. I haue said enough already and to giue him some taste of that which it decreed a great Bishop of his owne Church c Claud Espencae 2. Tim. pag. 151. a. hath lately confessed That they who in that Councell defended the worship of images did abuse thereto the apparitions of Diuels and old wiues dreames as may be seene in the 4. and 5. actions of the Councell I suppose the doctrine of the Fathers and traditions of the Catholicke Church vses not to be supported with such stuffe And what impudencie was it for them to say it and yet be able no better to shew it 4 The fift point was the Merit of workes Which his owne Waldensis calles Pelagianisme and charges to be a late inuention To this he replies his accustomed argument It is false as our Diuines abundantly testifie But was not Waldensis his owne Diuine and is not his testimony enough to discharge me who professe no more but what I say to make good by the confession of my owne
When I heare Anaxagoras I beleue him then comes Melissus and Parmenides and I know not how I change my minde * Quonsque tandem talia edoceor verum tamen nihil addisco How long shall I thus be taught and yet neuer taught to learne the truth 〈…〉 Thus he flouted the Philosophers that would say as much to our aduersaries and iustly might for any certainty they haue to rest vpon in any thing they hold against vs. Let them take the Councell that Vigilius gaue such as they are m Contr. Eutych l. 2. p. 555. Seeing both of you are coÌ„trary to your selues it s not amisse if both of you yeeld to confesse the truth with vs. You are deuided farre asunder the way you haue left is in the middest Come hither vnto vs one of you this way the other that way and meete together Let the one go into the others opinion so that he leaue not his owne let that which you hold priuately be common among you The contempt of which aduise is it that in all ages hath made hereticks so notorious for their disagreements with themselues that this hath bene obserued for the marke of their heresie They are deuided n Paschas comment in Lament l. 4. c. 4. pag. 74. saith Paschasius one from another through the singularity of their wicked inuentions and are able to agree neither with themselues nor with the Catholicke beleeuers of the Church 6 In the last place I named their doctrine of originall sin affirming that it was not vniuersall in former ages nor is not to this day agreed vpon This proues directly that it is not the same which the Apostles and Primitiue Church taught Because what they taught must be certainely knowne and agreed vpon which this their doctrine is not there being yet no certainety what the point is that the Church of Rome holds touching this matter The Reply answers that I cannot name the first author of any thing which the Church of Rome vniuersally holds touching this matter as a point of faith Meaning belike that the opinion of this or that Doctor may be a late deuise but not that which the Church holds I answer the Church of Rome cannot deny but our first Parents left the effect of their sinne in all mankinde their posterity a Eph. 2.3 whereby they are borne the children of wrath which effect is called originall sinne but what it holds vniuersally as a point of faith touching the nature and forme of this sin the Repliar cannot assigne that when he had assigned it I might try whether I could name the first author thereof or no. But let him giue me any definition of originall sinne holden in his Church whether vniuersally or priuately against that which the Church of England teaches and though possible it may fall out that I cannot name the first author thereof yet I will shew it not to haue bene the Catholicke doctrine of the Primitiue Church whereupon it will follow consequently that it is an alteration wherein the now church of Rome beleeues not as did the Primitiue Church In this varietie of opinions therefore I made choise of Bellarmine as most likely to be that which should be the point of faith and vniuersall and shewed it not to be so but to be a late deuice without antiquitie or vniuersalitie But my aduersary craftily forbearing to name what he holds to be the vniuersall doctrine of his Church and making shew as if Bellarmines opinion were not it bids me name the point of faith holden by his Church vniuersally and then shew the first author Because the question is not about priuate Doctors opinions but about the doctrine of faith vniuersally and authoritatiuely taught by the Church Wherein he deales neither plainly nor directly for if neither the opinion of Bellarmine nor of Catharinus which were all I named holden against vs be that which vniuersally authoritatiuely is taught by his Church he should haue named what it is that I might haue shewed it not to be catholicke 7 The truth is * Tantae est doctorum hominuÌ„ varietas inconstantia vt vix vlla alia in re maior Peltan de orig pecc p. 80. there is such varietie and inconstancie and shuffling of opinions touching this point of originall sinne that for his life he cannot tell what his Church holds and which is safest to follow which is an vnanswerable argument that the true faith they haue forsaken and minced into lend and absurd opinions The Councell of Trent b Sess 5. speakes warily and reseruedly defining nothing but leauing all sorts to their owne opinion Andradius c Orthod expl l. 3. p. 216. sayes The Councell of Trent when it had defined originall sinne to be sinne truly proper to euery one yet of set purpose forbore to speake of the proper reason thereof the which thing was also done by other Councels long before which delivering no certaine and expresse reason of originall sinne left it free for euery one to follow his opinion Hereupon it is that there are so many opinions 1 Dur. 2. d â—0 q. 1. Tap. art 2. p. 69. Cathar tract de orig pec disp 6. p. 150. some hold that it is not sinne properly nor can be imputed by reason it came by the will of another 2 Pigh contro 1. p. 29. Apol. p. 34. inde that it is sinne but not our sinne but that which Adam did whereby he made himselfe and his posteritie sinners 3 Roffâ—ns art 2 p. 29. Altisiod sum p. 97 col 4. Some that it is onely the guilt which lies vpon mankind for Adams sin being thereby excluded from eternall life without the mercie of God 4 Biel. 2. d. 30. q. 2. conc 6. Gre Arim. 2. p. 114. Aureol 2. d. 30. art 2. p. 284. Some that it is a corrupt or diseased qualitie in the soule deriued thereinto by the corruption of the flesh 5 Mag. 2. d. 30. Alexand. quem resert Dionys 2. p. 4â—8 col 2. Some that it is the concupiscence that is in vs to euill not euery inclination but that which is in the mind or will 6 Occh. 2. q. vlt. lit v. Scot. 2. d. 3. §. Circa istam Some that it is onely the priuation or destitution of the originall iustice that was in Adam and should be in all men 7 Tho. 12 q. 82. art 3. Bonau quem refert Dionys 2. p. 489 Capreol 2. pag. 495. ad 4. That it is formally the priuation of originall iustice but materially it is concupiscence 8 Sot de nat grat c 9. Azor. sum part 1. p. 287. That it stands wholly in the want or depriuation not of the habit of originall iustice as the sixt opinion affirmes but of that subiection vnto God and vnion of mind with him which all men should haue had if Adam had not transgressed Which of all these is that which the Replier
calls the vniuersall doctrine of the Church authoritatiuely taught I cannot define nor himselfe determine when all these haue bene and yet are holden in his Church and haue their patrons who will all of them maintaine that his owne opinion is the doctrine of the Church This therefore is it I said that had their doctrine touching originall sin bin the truth anciently taught in the Apostles Church it could not haue bene thus often changed and remoued from opinion to opinion till the opinions be multiplied to as many as there be Doctors 8 And this example shewes how friuolous the common answer is that their differences are not in points of faith but in by-matters not determined wherein it is lawfull to hold any part For this difference is in a point defined though not by any Popish councell yet by the word of God or whether it be defined or no it is in a matter wherein they hold against vs bearing men in hand that they can shew catalogues and whole companies in all ages that held therein with them FOR WE DO NOT SO MVCH CARE TO SHEW THEIR DIVISIONS TO BE IN THE SVBSTANCE OF THEIR FAITH albeit they haue infinite such AS TO MAKE CLEARE DEMONSTRATION THAT THEY AGREE IN NOTHING WHICH THEY HOLD AGAINST THE PROTESTANTS The which kind of disagreement is sufficient to shew the things we haue refused in their Church to be matters broacht and brought in which neuer had the generall approbation of the Church That wherewith he concludes we can shew diuers points of the Protestants faith directly contrary to the ancient Church is a stale vntruth already sufficiently confuted in euery passage He can referre vs to his Coccius and Bellarmine but himselfe I thinke can shew little of his owne knowledge being one of them whom not knowledge but rumour and popularitie haue carried to the Popes side CHAP. LIX Obiections against the outward succession of the Pope 1. Touching Peters being at Rome 2. His pastorall office what it was 3. Whether there be any diuine authoritie for the Popes succession 4. Not certaine what Popes haue succeeded one another 5. Vacancies diuers in the Sea of Rome 6. The storie of the woman Pope of what credit 7. 8. The Pope hath bene an hereticke and erred è Cathedra 10. The Pope succeeds by Simonie and violence Such succession is a nullitie by his owne law 11. The Pharisees in Moses chaire how A. D. defends the succession of an ASSE 12. Many Popes at once 13. Vrbanus his crueltie toward the Cardinals 13. What the Protestants say touching the succession of the Church of Rome A.D. The fifth obiection Lastly Pag. 289. my aduersaries may obiect against the Romane succession which in this Catalogue I mention FIRST that it is not certaine that euer S. Peter was at Rome SECONDLY that we haue no diuine but onely humane proofe that the Bishop of Rome White pag. 416 Pag. 418. pag 419. pag. 421. rather then he of Antioch is S. Peters successor THIRDLY admitting that S. Peter had one to succeed him in Rome it is not certaine who this was which succeeded him and who afterward succeeded one another FOVRTHLY the Sea hath bene voide a good while together FIFTLY a woman was once Pope SIXTLY diuers Popes haue bene hereticks SEVENTHLY some haue entred into the Popedome by simonie and violence c. EIGHTLY there haue bene 30 schismes and therefore it is vncertaine who was the right Pope To the FIRST I answer that so many ancient * See the Fathers cited for this point in the Rhem. Test annot Rom. 16 Fathers do witnes and so many monuments yet remaining do testifie that S. Peter was at Rome and died there that it is great ignorance and impudencie to denie it 1 THe obiections here mentioned the first excepted I proposed Digress 53. and they clearely shew that the outward succession of Bishops in the Romane Church is neither so entire nor perfect as is pretended Our aduersaries neuer haue done with vrging the lineall succession of their Popes frō S. Peter to this day making it a signe of the Church and concluding from it that they alone are the Bishops and Pastors of the world which haue preserued the truth from all corruption and innouation Which outward succession in some degree the Protestants denie not onely they affirme two things against it that the same is to be found in other Churches as well as in the Church of Rome and that it hath bene so tainted and interrupted with defects of all sorts that it can proue nothing against vs but rather shewes manifestly that the ancient faith and gouernment commended by Christ to his Church hath bene changed as will appeare by viewing the seuerall things that are obiected 2 To the first he answers that so many ancient Fathers and monuments yet remaining testifie S. Peter to haue bene at Rome and died there that it is ignorance and impudencie to denie it He affirmes three things First that we denie Peter to haue bene at Rome This is vntrue Let the writings of our a D. Fulk answ to the Rhem. Rom. 16. nu 4. D. Rainol conser c. 6. diuis 3. D. Whitak controu 4. ◠3. c. ◠Iun. contr 3. l. 2. c. 5. Diuines be viewed and they denie it not but the vttermost they say is that the reasons and testimonies brought out of antiquity whereupon his being there is grounded are vncertaine and may sensibly be dissolued If b Whose demonstrations that Peter was neuer at Rome are printed by Illyricus with his boke called Refut inuectiu Bruni printed at Basil an 1566. by Oporin Velenus or some speciall men with him haue brought the matter in question it was free for them so to do and almost necessarie for the bolting out of the truth all things in antiquitie touching the same being perplexed with such difficulties that it were able to make any man misdoubt it Yet the Protestants are not curious and the Church of Rome gaines not a straw by it Secondly that the ancient Fathers testifie he was at Rome This I grant but yet all the Papists liuing cannot reconcile their testimonies nor maintaine either that he came thither in such a time or stayed there so long as is reported The which consideration hath mooued as learned Papists themselues as euer were any to doubt of his being there at all if my aduersarie thinke them so impudent that do it Marsilius Patauinus * Marsil defens Pacis part 2. c. 16. printed at Basil in fol. saies that by the Scripture it cannot be conuinced either that he was Bishop of Rome or euer was at Rome at all And then considering the Ecclesiasticall histories that affirme it he so doth it that it plainely appeares he beleeued them not Whence it followes that his being there was a common opinion but not certaine forsomuch as it was grounded on no surer testimonie then these circumstances of Time were The first that saies he sate
Papacie Which is as much as we require For hereby we make plaine demonstration that our aduersaries cannot assigne what persons succeeded one another but are constrained to set them downe out of order and some also that neuer were Bishops of Rome at all Whence it followes that the succession is not precisely in those persons nor in that order that the Iesuite hath set downe in his Catalogue and our aduersaries pretend They which blaze their catalogues of Popes from Peter and boast so fast that Gods ordinance hath vpholden a visible succession in the Church of Rome are bound to place euery person in his owne order or else content themselues with that succession which is in faith and doctrine A.D. To the FOVRTH I answer that vacancie of the Sea Pag. 291. is no morall interruption of succession although the vacancie continue for a good space neither is it any maine inconuenience so that in the meane time no speciall matter of importance happen which cannot be ended without one in that office to interpose his authoritie 5 Though euery kind of vacancie take not away succession yet the vacancies of the Romane sea disable the succession thereof for being of that nature which our aduersaries pretend who hold the Pope to be such a Head that without him there can neither be vnitie in faith nor stabilitie in the truth nor life in the Church in as much as these things a See Can. loc l. 6. cap. 8. ad 1. Greg. de Valen de obiect fid punct 7. qu. 7. are holden to haue their influx into the Church by no other meanes then through him So long time therefore as the Sea wants a Pope the Church wants a head and meanes to conuey the truth to it if the Pope be the onely Head and Meanes And although euery distance and period of time require not authoritie to interpose it selfe in things of question yet if it be Gods ordinance thus to direct his Church by the Pope and by no other meanes he is bound to preuent such long vacancies and perplexities wherein no man liuing for many yeares together can tell who is true Pope Let the words of Canus touching the time of the Popes death be noted and applied to our vacancies b Loc. l. 4. c. vlt. ad 12. When the Pope is dead the Church no doubt is still one and the Spirit of truth abideth in it yet is it left LAME and DIMINISHED being WITHOVT CHRISTS VICAR THAT ONE PASTOR OF THE CHVRCH Therefore albeit the truth still be in the Church yet if any controuersies arise the Churches iudgement without the Head is not so certaine Pag. 291. See Onuphr annot super Platin. A.D. To the FIFTH it is a meere fable without all probabilitie or morall possibilitie that euer there was any such woman Pope And if there had bene so it prooues nothing but a vacancie of the Sea for that time 6 For the vacancie I haue said and by pretence thereof the succession of the foulest hereticks that haue euer bene may be salued the time of their sitting being expounded to be but a vacation But to say the succession of the woman Pope is a fable without all probabilitie is a desperate answer when so innumerable authors write it and being as morall as A. D. is beleeued it also In the Church of Sienna in Italy c Papir Masson de episc Vrb. l. 6. in Pio 3. where the pictures of the Popes that haue bene haue vsed of long time to be set vp the image of this Pope Ioane till d Florimund fab Ioan. c. 22. n. 2. pag. 19 1. within these twentie yeares that the Pope and the Duke of Florence at the intercession of Baronius cast it downe was to be seene standing in it place among the other Popes that had bene of ancient time It is no contending with obstinacie but when the first and sole authors of the storie and the confidentest reporters of it were the wisest and learnedst Papists that liued in their time and Onuphrius and the Iesuites were the first that euer denied it it is folly for the Replier to thinke to discredit the storie M. Cooke hath so well quit it both from Onuphrius and the rest that haue followed that I will onely referre the reader to his e Called Pope Joane printed ann 1610 for Edm. Blount William Barret Booke which handles the point throughly and exactly A. D. To the SIXT Pag. 291. Bellarm. lib. 4. de Rom. Pontif the learned Cardinall Bellarmine doth shew that there was neuer any Pope hereticke euen as a priuate man and all the best learned Catholicke Diuines agree that neuer any did or shall or can ex Cathedra define any error or heresie to be true faith or authoritatiuely teach the Church any thing contrary to the true faith Which being although some of them in their priuate opinion had held any error in faith or heresie it could not preiudice the Church 7 Here are three things affirmed touching the Pope First that there was neuer any Pope Hereticke euen as a priuate man as Bellarmine shewes This I disproued in THE WAY a Digress 28. 47. nu 15.53 nu 8. three times ouer and it is a desperate vntruth against the experience of many Popes and against the mind of diuerse most learned Papists True it is that Bellarmine saies it is probable and piously may be beleeued and doth his best to quit such Popes as are commonly charged but his answers are vnsufficient and against the vniuersall consent of all historie And to insist vpon a particular example or two Honorius the first of that name fell into the heresie of the Monothelites holding that Christ had but one will and so consequently but one nature and for the same was iudged and condemned in b Concil 3. Constantinop Synod 6. act 13. sub Agatho Phot. Biblioth in Synod 6. graec p. 6. Concil Nicen. 2. act 7. epist 1. Synodal ad Augg. epist 2. ad omnes Fidel. concil 8. act 7. colloqu 3. three generall Councels Whereto Bellarmine with all his magnified learning c De Pontif. Rom. l. 4 c. 11. § ad secundum dico can answer no more but that the Councels are corrupted the which thing Albertus Pighius d Alb. Pigh hierarch ecclesiast l. 4. c. 8. §. Sedquoniam ex pag. 251. hauing said before e Diatrib de Actis 6. 7. Synod praef ad lecto was admonished thereof and wished to recant it and Dominicus Bannes f Dom. Bann 22 qu. 1 art 10. dub 2. p. 116. saies Certainely it is ridiculous that now after 900 yeares Pighius should find those witnesses false and forgers And Cano g Can. Loc. l. 6. c. 8. ad 11. that this conceite was neuer heard in the Church before Holding himselfe resolutely that Honorius erred and alledged diuers proofes for the same Liberius fell into Arianisme Athanasius and Hierom h Athan.
nos certos faciat Grego de Valent tom 3. pag. 117. c. Verus Scripturae sensus inest Scripturae sicut signatum signo sed media certa explorata infallibilia quibus sensus iste eruitur non est ipsa Scriptura sed traditio Ecclesiastica vox definitio Ecclesiae seu eius qui Ecclesiae vice Christi praesidet Grets defens Bellar. tom 1. p. 1970. c. This is the finall euasion that the Iesuites vse against this argument in defence of their traditions and Popes authority against the sufficiency of the Scripture that the Scriptures haue in them a shining light and are as the Protestants say able to proue themselues to be the word of God and containe their true sense in themselues but this light we see not and this true sense we know not and this assurance that they are Gods word or that this is the true sense we cannot haue in the Scripture it selfe but by the meanes of Traditions and the Popes authoritie shewing and propounding these things to vs. As a candle though hauing light in it selfe yet shewes light to none when it is hid vnder a bushell but when it is set vpon a Candlesticke I answer 2. things First as I haue often said this authority and teaching of the Church is not alway nor simply necessary to shew all men the light of the Scripture or so much as to point to it for either by the immediate light of Gods Spirit or by the light of nature it may be knowne to be Gods word as by the light of nature it is knowne that God is whereupon it followes plainely that the Scripture alone as the Rule hath this light in it selfe and from it selfe shewes it else it could not in this manner without Church proposition shine to any Secondly I grant that ordinarily for the seeing and discerning of the euidēce perfection purity power sence all this light that is in the Scripture the proposition of the Church is necessary as a candlesticke to hold it forth but then this proposition may be expounded two waies one way to signifie such authority as by and from it selfe induces me to beleeue afore I see any authority in the Scripture and together with the authority of the Scripture the twofold authority of the Church and Scripture concurring to the moouing of my vnderstanding as when two men concurre as one formall beginning to the carrying and moouing of a blocke This Church proposition thus expounded I vtterly deny to be either needfull or possible Secondly it may be expounded for the Ministry of the Church by her Pastors and people reuealing the Scriptures to them that know them not and teaching the nature sense and meaning thereof But this ministry is but a bare condition adding no light sense authority or matter to the Scripture but onely leading vs to see it Of which Ministery there is no question betweene vs for all Protestants grant The authority or ministery of the Church supposes no want of light in the Scripture and vse it but the question is whether all the articles and whole nature of faith be contained in Scripture alone excluding vnwritten traditions though the Ministery of the Church be needfull as an instrument to shew teach and expound the Scripture as a candlesticke is needfull to shew the candle For the vse of this Ministry and requisite condition of all other meanes that are to be vsed supposes no want or defect in the obiect whereabout they are applied but onely produces it to his operation as the setting of a candle vpon the socket addes no light to it that was wanting in it selfe but onely remoues some impediments that hinder the standers by from seeing and the opening of a window to let in light makes not the Sunne imperfect or but a partiall light And if our aduersaries intended no more but this there were an end of the controuersie for no Protestant euer denied the necessity of Church ministry in this sense but freely confesse it although the authority * See it expounded Chap. 35. n. 1. inde and here immediatly after in nu 4. mentioned we renounce 4 For the better explication of this my answer and that the Reader may see how impertinent it is that my Aduersary sayes Note FIRST that o The quest betweene vs the Papists about the Churches authority the question is not whether some meanes be ordinarily required to the vnderstanding of the Scripture and the producing of faith in such as reade and vse it nor whether the Scripture worke infallible assurance immediatly in all men for in some it doth without the operation and coming betweene of the Church ministery For we hold it doth not But the point is whether this authority of the Church supply any article of faith or matter needfull to saluation that is wanting in the Scripture so that it may be said as my Aduersary alway speaketh the Scripture alone is but a part of the rule of faith which God hath left to instruct men what is to be holden for faith and there be many substantiall points belonging to faith which are contained in Scripture alone nether expresly nor thence to be deduced by consequence but to be supplied by tradition and Church authority and so the question is not about the expediency or condition of the meanes but about the perfection and sufficiency of the thing it selfe Note SECONDLY that my aduersary from the necessity of the means concludes the insufficiency of the thing thus The light of the Scripture shines not to vs the true sense of the Scripture is not infallibly assured vnto vs without the meanes of the Church The Scripture therefore is vnsufficient not containing all things needfull not instructing vs WHAT is to be holden for matter of faith as if a man should say the light of the candle appeares not to vs but when it is set on a candlesticke therefore there is much light that is wanting in the candle and is supplied by the candlesticke Note THIRDLY what the things properly are which our aduersaries attribute to the Church in comparing it with the Scripture They are there first to be a meanes to reueale and expound the Scripture to vs and to breed the faith thereof in our consciences Secondly to be the Foundation of our faith in this sense that we do beleeue this to be Scripture and this to be the true sense of the Scripture and this to be the matter of faith onely because the Church expounds the Scripture so Thirdly to supply vnto vs many articles of faith absolutely needfull to saluation that are wanting in the Scripture out of tradition and by the said tradition to expound the Scripture These two latter points they infer on of the first which is the incroching consequence that I except against in that the authority wherein God hath placed his Church is not in respect of the Scripture but in respect of vs being a bare Minister to the
the world and outwardly professes the faith of Christ whether they therein that do it be the elect or others for we onely speake of the place and companie where the truth is professed and may be found which may well be where the wicked and the elect are mingled together Note FIFTHLY that the Church is called Catholick or vniuersal in two sences first the Church taken in his full latitude Catholicke Church for the whole company of all that are called both in heauen and in earth visible and inuisible elect and hypocrites is called the Catholicke Church in as much as it comprehends all that haue bene called to the profession of the Catholick faith then againe for so much as any part may synecdochically be termed after the name of the whole it sometimes fals out that the Militant Church or any part of it iâ— called the Catholick as well as the Militant and Triumphant together But when the elect alone most perfectly haue the Catholicke faith and not onely vse the faith ministerie and Sacraments reuealed but also enioy the effectâ— and benefits thereof which the false Church neuer doth hence it comes that they principally and as the vniuersall members thereof are called the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed a Alià s omnes homines etiam infideles etiaÌ„ damnati dicerentur pertinere ad corpus Ecclesiae tanquam eius meÌ„bra quod est absurdum Turrecrem sum l. 4. part 2. c. 20. ad 6. idem l. 1. c. 57. the rest in very deed and truth not being of the Church at all for Bellarmine b De Eccl. l. 3. c. 10. pag. 13â— d sayes The Church chiefly and in her intention gathers together onely the faithfull but when dissemblers and such as beleeue not truly are mingled that fals out besides the intention of the Church for if she could know them she would neuer admit them or being admitted she would presently exclude them Againe c Ibi. pag 141. a Heretickes faining themselues to be Catholickes are not of the Church indeed but onely in reputation and outward appearance 3 This being the manner how we distinguish and hold touching the Church and the manner thereof now I answer that which the Rplier hath reported * Ad. 1. To the first it is false and malicious that we make two Churches for the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed and the Militant make but one Church which in one sence is called Catholick and Militant in another For the multiplication of diuers states degrees and relations belonging to a thing multiplies not the essence of the things as he that deuides the world into parts or distinguishes the climates or shews the diuersitie of the inhabitants doth not distinguish seuerall worlds but affirmes diuers states and conditions in one and the same world I am ashamed when I reade d See Staplet relect pag. 36. our aduersaries that should haue learning and shamefac'dnesse or at least ordinarie wit thus wrangling with vs as if we made two Churches * Ad 2. To the second it is likewise false and fitter for a parasite that sets himselfe onely to boast and reproach then for a diuine For our answer is plaine and direct that the Church considered in such state as it is ordained and fit to teach men the true faith and as mortall men can haue accesse to it which belongs onely to the Militant state is sometimes so ouerwhelmed with persecutions â—nd heresies that a true Church entirely teaching the faith of Christ without errors and freely vsing the word Sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline apart from the rest of the Church cannot be seene in all the world And our aduersaries arguments being applied to this neither hunt nor pursue vs so but we can answer them without flying into the Church of the elect for we do not say that the elect alone are thus obscured but euen all whether elect or reprobate that openly hold the state mentioned in this sence that not onely the elect are inuisible not to be discerned with mortall eye for they are alwaies so in this world but the whole Church Militant containing both elect and others is at some times so defaced and obscured that the world cannot see where the substance of faith is holden without errors mingled And so it is meerly vntrue that the Replier sayes touching our flying to the Church of the elect For as I answered in e Pag. 100. THE WAY though we hold the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed euery member whereof is saued to be inuisible because God alone sees who are elected yet the Church thus considered is not it that we speake of in this question but the Militant whereof we say it IS ALWAY manifest to the world but a companie therein that needs not reformation is NOT ALWAY manifest And whereas he sayes we will neuer be able sufficiently to proue the Church spoken of in the Creed and in the Scripture where the promises of the Spirit are made to the Church to containe none but the elect he is deceiued For though this be not materiall to the point in hand and without any disaduantage to our cause might be granted yet the best learned of his owne side say as we do that none are simply absolutely and vniuocally of the Church but the elect alone as I haue shewed immediatly before For f Eph. 5.23 Col. 1.18 the Church being nothing else but the bodie of Christ and Christ being the Sauiour of his bodie how shall hypocrites and other euill men whom he neuer saues be truly said to be his Church And when g Jtaque neque pro illu qui non saluantur obtulis suam passionem qui nunquam participauerunt ipsius merita neque pro eis qui iustificati non sunt Patrem orauit Christus Non pro mundo inquit rogo sed pro eis quos dedisti mihi Dicitur autem mortuus esse pro omnibus quia mors illius sufficiens fuit ad satisfaciendum pro omnibus Omnium delictis pro innumerabilibus alijs si essent ad perducendum omnes homines ad Dei gratiam And. Vega. pro concil l. 4 c. 10. pag 49. the effects and power of Gods calling and the benefits of his grace and the redemption of Christ reach no further then to the elect alone neuer touching the wicked that l ue among them how can the wicked either perfectly or properly be long to the Church But as I said this is not materiall to the point in hand and therefore I will not diuert into it our assertion being that not the elect alone are alway inuisible but sometimes also all the congregations of the world wherein they liue and professe Christ are so corrupted or oppressed that albeit the substance of sauing faith contained in the Creed and rule of faith be retained in them yet there is no congregation visible that hath not diuers corruptions needing reformation hanging on them