discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
THE ROMISH FISHER CAVGHT AND HELD IN HIS OWNE NET OR A True Relation of the Protestant Conference and Popish Difference A Iustification of the one and Refutation of the other In matter of FACT FAITH By DANIEL FEATLY Doctor in Diuinity Theodoret. Dial. 2. Cap. 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Orthodox Thou art caught in thine owne Net LONDON Printed by H. L. for Robert Milbourne and are to bee sold at the great South-dore of Pauls 1624. TO THE MOST Reuerend Father in God the L rd Arch-Bishop of Canterbury his Grace Primate and Metrapolitane of all England c. my very good Lord. May it please your Grace I Haue euer as much as lay in mee declined and earnestly contended against all contentions and publick Conferences in poynt of Religion with Romish Priests and Iesuites For Poperie as I haue oft learned from your Grace is a doctrine of lyes and as it maintaineth lyes so it can be maintained by no better support then of lyes In all conflicts with men of that faction though their redoubted wrastlers in grappling with our Diuines are put to the worst yet like Pericles in the Theatre bee they indeed neuer so much foyled they will go about by their eloquence to perswade the Spectators that they receiued not but gaue the foyle And as Lysimachus when he receiued a sore wound from Alexander in his fore-head had it presently bound vp and couered with a glorious Diademe so when any of their side are wounded sorely in any skirmish with vs their fellowes presently binde it vp and couer it with a Crowne of a surmised victorie I well knew and foretold the Pitcher of the field that whatsoeuer the issue of the combate were Master Deane of Carlile and my selfe should be notwithstanding conquered in effigie and led in triumph in many a Pageant at Doway Bruxels Rhemes and Rome as since we haue seene in Letters and gazettaes from beyond the Seas Omnia praecepi atque animo mecum antè peregi Yet knowing that truth is strong in her weakest and falshood is weake in her strongest Champions and being vrgently desired by the friends and personally challenged by the enemies of our most holy Faith to appeare as a Second in her sacred iust quarrel malui in illo praesertim legum et iustitiae publicae iustitio Iesuitas fractos quà m despectos dimittere I chose in that high floate of the Iesuites pride and hopes rather by an encounter to represse their insolencie then by a refusall increase their arrogancie Neither was the diuine Assistance and benediction wanting at the Conference nor since for by it the old Gentleman whose intended satisfaction drew on this meeting was settled as himselfe vnder his hand twice professed and resolued in that point which before left a scruple in his conscience And by occasion of this Dispute the Chronicles of the Reformed Churches haue beene better searched into and some most vsefull Relations and Treatises touching the Visibility of the Church brought to light and more publick view then before And albeit his Maiesty vpon the first noise and mis-report of this disputation seemed to distast it yet when the whole truth of that which passed that day together with the occasion and issue thereof appeared to his Maiesty in its natiue hiew the former cloud which threatned a bitter showre was by your Graces fauourable breath suddenly blowne ouer and then the true Relation of that Conference finding the skie cleere stole wings to and from the presse and flew freely abroad euery where checking and controuling the Iesuits false Relations and plucking from their heads those Lawrell garlands wherewith they had crowned their temples for their owne noble exployts that day It could not bee expected that this printed Relation should haue beene otherwise entertained by Master Fisher and Master Sweet the Popish Combatants then it was who after a month or two set vpon it in print and dealt with it as the wife of Anthony did with Tullies tongue after his death they thrust it thorow and thorow with needles and stabbed it againe and againe with their poysoned pens the one writing an answer to it the other a censure of it To both these Pamphlets this Reply is addressed In the former part Master Fishers Answer to the Fisher catched in his owne Net is censured in the latter Master Sweet's Censure is answered And because opposita iuxta se posita magis elucescunt I haue printed Master Fisher's Text with my Reply thereunto vt dum haeretici hominis venena lector cognoscit libentiùs orthodoxi bibat antidotum If any thing be omitted the occasion and reason of the omission is not omitted Had I set down all the Iesuites battologies Idem delicti fierem reprehensor et author Whatsoeuer I haue done heerein I submit to your Graces censure and fauourable construction thereof I acknowledge it is not a worthy present for your Grace yet because it is my first fruits in this kinde it of right belongeth to the high Priest the rather because the growth of it was vpon your sacred gleabe The Stork which alwaies leaues one of her young ones in the house where shee breeds for the Owner thereof teacheth mee this poynt of gratitude to offer that to your Grace which was bred vnder your Graces roofe Siue legas quo dabo siue tegas Did not these and many other priuate respects challenge this dedication to your Grace yet the sweet influence which your Graces gouernment continually distilleth vpon Gods Inheritance among vs would cause from any heart and pen not barren the returne of some sweet spiration of praises to God and thanksgiuing to your Grace for your incessant trauels in Gods cause The costly oyntment which on Palme-Sunday last flowed abundantly from your lips so cheered vp and reuiued that numberlesse Auditory that your Graces Name is as a most fragrant oyntment sending foorth a most sweet sauour through the whole Kingdome What should I speake of the most happie and ioyfull newes of our thrice-noble Prince's returne out of Spaine whereof your Grace was the first siluer Trumpet to the City And God bee blessed for it the Trumpet gaue not an vncertaine sound Those glorious night-Tapours which were set so thick together in the streets that they made a kinde of Galaxia in the City were all kindled early in the morning at your Graces sacred Lamp Sicut Marcelli praelio ad Nolam saith the Orator populus Romanus primò se erexit posteà multaeres prosperae consequutae sunt As the Roman State after many disasters first began to cheere vp againe at Marcellus his victory at Nola and afterwards much good fortune followed so after much sorrow and more feare the happy Returne of our Prince first cheered vp our drooping spirits and after that many happie things haue followed whereof vnder his Maiestie your Grace haue been and are together with your noble Associates in this high Court of Parliament the principall Instruments Ride on
that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe that BEZA recanted his religion before his death that the reuerend Doctor KING late Bishop of London died a Papist or that the Protestants at Black-â—ryers by knocking certaine pins out of the timber caused that late lamentable fall of the floar wherin about 200 Papists were assembled and neere a 100 slaine They who teach pious frauds and write of holy hypocrisy and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation may securely report whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause The more incredible and palpable the Lie is the more merit in him that maketh it and in them that beleeue it Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies and Philosophy teacheth that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth and verily as hee said in the Poet Si ius violandum est Regni causa violandum if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice he must doeit for a Kingdome so it is like they are resolued if a man must lye certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion and if lie in so good a cause lye to some purpose The first report concerning the issue of this Conference was of a silly woman said to be present and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it protesting she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more But alas this was but a silly lye made by some pâ—isne â—ouice of the petty forme to see how a lye in this kinde would take The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause by giuing out that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference was gayned to the Romish faith yea and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 some say 400 is the summe of the supposed Conuerts whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference and as wee conceiue neere 20. were professed Papists and knowne Recusants and for the rest which were Noble-men Gentle-men and Gentle-women of quality with some few Diuines there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they haue openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it and Master BVGGES himselfe whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church after this Disputation professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity As for those who contrary to the euidence of truth and so many testimonies beyond all exception are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause the Iesuites wee say who maintaine that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation vpon such as stand thus affected wee bestow the blessing of Cardinall CARAFFA who when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him beeing ariued at Paris comming as Legate from the Pope lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen and making according to the manner crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi decipiatur If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued with such shewes and fopperies let them be gulled or deceiued THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE THe occasion and issue of the late Conference had Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White Deane of Carlile and Doctor Featly with Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference touching the Visibility of the Church page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference page 29. An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in the said Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly to his worthy friend Sir Humfrey Lynde touching the former Conference held at his house wherein is maintained that 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull and vsefull and therfore to be iustified 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference maintained and iustified 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference were direct not diuersiue H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions which were propounded by the Iesuite by Distinctions Assertions 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible L1 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages O2 A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference R3 wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations and it is prooued and confirmed that 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies S1 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages yet their Names not now extant S3 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages T1 A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference wherein is shewed that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 An Answer to the Preface thereof V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same which are reduced vnto fiue heads viz. 1 Vntruths 2 Contradictions 3 Idle obseruations and exceptions 4 Impertinences or mal ' à proposes 5 Vaine repetitions Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation touching the occasion of the Conference page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer or the defence of the Protestant Relation diuided into Paragraphs Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction breaking
Syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly You your self make the first part a question by it selfe for at the margent ouer against the first part Whether the Protestant Church was euer visible you write I will answer It was not which words can haue no Construction if you referre them to both parts or at all to the latter part to wit Whether the names can be a shewed M. Fisher. Let vs heare a Syllogisme D. Featly In this copulatiue proposition which you offer for a question and require mee to proue either you deny both parts or one onely if both I am to proue both one after the other if one onely then you grant the other A copulatiue is not true vnlesse both parts bee true Doe you deny both or one onely M. Fisher. I say they are but one for the later part is to expound the former for I meane by visible so visible that the names of such visible Protestants may bee shewed D. Featly This is to confound two distinct questions in one For a Church may haue bin visible and yet the names of such visible Professours not now to bee shewed M. Fisher. They are my words and I am best able to expound my owne meaning D. Featly An exposition which the construction of the words will not beare is not to be receiued But the construction of the words will not beare this your expositioÌ„ Therfore it is not to be receiued And is a coniunction copulatiue must adde some-what to that which goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men M. Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this if there were visible men certainly they may bee named Name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all ages D. Featly It seemes you are Nominalls rather then Realls you stand so much vpon naming Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professours of our Religions in all ages for ought I knowe the best way for vs is to bee all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all ages certainly they may bee named D. Featly That is a Non sequitur for the reasons beforenamed by mee What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no names at all M. Bolton Yet they haue descriptions and may bee knowne by some Periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali who are so called because their Head and Authour cannot bee named nor particularly described Yet the Authour was a visible man Are all visible mens names vpon Record Are all the Records that were in former times now to bee produced Heer diuers of Master Fishers company called Names names names D. Featly What Will nothing content you but a Buttery-booke You shall haue a Buttery-booke of names if you will stay a while Heere diuers of the Auditors wished D. Featly not to proceed any further in the disputation vnlesse Master Fisher would suffer him according to the lawes of all disputation first to conclude the first part of his copulatiue Queâ—stion and then the second Yet Doctor Featly ' desirous to bring the disputation to some better issue before he left it was content to yeeld to M. Fishers vnreasonable demand and conclude both parts of the copulatiue Question in one Syllogisme D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall is so visible that the Names of some Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the Protestants Church is so visible that the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith ceaseth D. Featly You haue a purpose M. Fisher to cauill you knowe my meaning well enough by the tearm perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue vntill his second Coming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shall bee so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Therefore it hath been so visible that the Names of the Professers thereof may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacy called Petitio principij D. Featly A demonstration à causâ or à priori is not petitio principii But such is my Argument Therefore my Argument is not petitio principii Is it not a sounder Argument to prooue the Visibility of the Professers from the truth of their faith than as you doo the truth of your faith from the Visibility of Professers Visible Professers argue not a right faith Hereticks Mahumetans and Gentiles haue visible professers of their impieties yet wil it not hence follow that they haue a right beleef On the contrary wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintains the true faith shall haue alwaies Professers more or less visible M. Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori D. Featly Shall you prescribe mee my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better than an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemy to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapons I list take you what buckler you can M. Fisher. A Proof à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori M. Alesbury Heer M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceeds à priori Is not a demoÌ„stration of the effect froÌ„ the cause more excellent than of the cause by the effect From this place and so forward it was agreed by the Disputants that the Arguments and Answers should be taken by one common Writer and that the Opponent Dr. Featly should set his hand to each seuerall Syllogism and the Respondent Mr. Fisher to his seuerall Answers Dr. Featly That Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee is so visible that the Names of the Professours thereof may be produced and shewed But the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible that their Names may be produced M. Fisher. I deny the Minor D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternal and perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be But the
faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the Names can bee shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the Names cannot be shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What Answer you to the Conclusion also This is a Strain of new Logick M. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the etemity of faith by Professers to be named and not to bee named What are Professers nominable or innominable to the eternity of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny that the Protestant Church is so eternall as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetuall and visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this Proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speak you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirm the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heer M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should be made when it came to their turn to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The Summe of your former Answer was that the Minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Therefore your Answer is false and impertinent And first my Minor is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the Antecedent that it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be prooued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chief end of our Dispute which was as I said before that infallible truth may bee learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the Minor is pertinent That Minor Proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the Conclusion of the Minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that Minor denied But the Minor Proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor last denied Therefore the Minor of that Syllogism is pertinent Note that M. Fishers Answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other suggesting priuately and amending what they thought fit Which breeding much delay irkesom to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher M. Chamberlane standing by said Let him alone for he and his learned Councell are not yet agreed M Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Minor proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor in such manner as it may serue for the purpose to which the whole Dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it doe inferre the conclusion yet not in such manner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole Dispute was ordained I deny the Maior Heere the Disputants iarred and so the Writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That Minor which together with the Maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per direct a media is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained But this Minor together with the Maior directly and necessarily inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per directa media Therefore it is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your Media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a Bull. M. Fisher. Media directa yet not addirectum finem that is direct and not direct for Media are said to be directa only ratione finis in regard of the end M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus When a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio a genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs bee perpetuall Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the Visibility of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus D. Good M. Sweet you once learned better Logick in Cambridge then you shew now Heere againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names Where are your names D. White sayd D. White This is nothing but an apparant tergiuersation you will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our argument and therefore I require you M. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each party to haue an houre and a
one thing and you proued another The question was of the visibilitie of Church but your arguments were of the eternity of faith Is not this thiug ad ChouÌ„ Ego respondeo de allijs tu disputas de cepis M. Fisher answered of Garlike you spake of Onions For this vnsauory exception M. Sweet was sauced in the conference where it was proued against him that to proue an effect by the cause is a direct naturall and not a diuersiue proofe My argument standeth thus The true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints hath had must and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the Protestant faith hath had and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof The Maior is euident in Scripture and confessed on all hands The Minor I offered to proue but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall The Maior and Minor passing without controll none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion This argument I affirme not onely direct to proue the conclusion denied but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question which is to finde out the true Church whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe but out of Scripture And for the visibility of the true Church either it is a matter of faith or not If not what need wee so much trouble our selues with it If it bee matter of faith Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith then out of the Writ of faith that is the holy Scripture For humane Stories and Records in al ages they are not easily found and when we haue found them we find them so defectiue so corrupted and defaced and oftentimes so contrary one to another that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour And were they neuer so perfect as Bellar. confesseth they could not beget diuine and infallible faith If no man can bee saued without knowledge that he is in the true Church and no man can knowe that he is in the true Church vnless hee can proue out of good Authours the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church who neither haue time nor meanes nor learning to search all Records of Antiquitie Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages who maintained the present Tridentine faith which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did or could yet they are little neerer For Iewes and Paynims and it may bee diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages since Christ and his Apostles times and some before From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures a man may by infallible consequence grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church conclude perpetuall visibility of professors more or lesse And therefore the course I tooke is not onely the streight but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church which is the house of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue and shew my inducements to my induction Against which I heare by you it is excepted that in vndertaking it I leaue the beaten way and take a way by my self where I shall surely lose my selfe neuer come to an end To this obiection the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer Nemo tenetur diuinare No man is bound to prophecie before-hand especially of the successe of anothers labours If leaue be procured for a second Meeting the golden thread of succession which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand and his Apostles shall be drawne downe God willing to later Ages euen to Luthers time But what they meane by holding the beaten way I cannot easily diuine If they mean that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I say that way perhaps beaten by some yet seems to me a slipperie dirty way and I hope I shall bee able to shew that we need not aurum in stercore quaerere to seek the golden purity of faith amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions and deprauations in later ages Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way quos sequor à longe et vestigia pronus adoro These are Doctor Abbot now my Lord of Canterbury in his Answer to Hill Humfrey to Campion his third reason Doctor Vsher now Lord of Meth de successione Ecclesiae The History of the Waldenses Fox Acts and Monuments Crispin of the state of the church Morneys mystery of iniquity with Riuets defense thereof Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors Illiricus witnesses of the truth Wolsius his select readings Lydius his Waldensia and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse As those that trauell by night through the Hercynian Forest when they are at a stand obserue certaine birds fleeing before them and by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark guide their steppes and finde out a way so in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee I doubt not but by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me I mean the light of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject to finde out my way I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference except an omission of the sâ—ate of the question which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered as they could wish That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference they say is so brief that instar fulguris terret magis quà m illustrat it is like lightning which rather scares than lights the Passenger in his way If this were a iust exception yet it lyeth not against me who had the Opponents part put vpon me but against M. Fisher who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent For by the orders of all Schools it is the Answerers and not the Opponents task to state the Question He that keeps a Fort in battel is to make his ramparts and guard the walls with redouts and out-works the assailants part is to lay well his batteries and make breaches where he can At the next desired meeting when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place the Question should haue been explicated to the full by the distinctions conclusions heerin inclosed But as that Meeting by iniurious
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
calling it bee inuisible yet in respect of the outward calling to and profession of sauing faith it is alwaies more or lesse visible The elect are visible men and exist in the visible congregations of Christians as the apple in the ey or a Diamond in a Ring or the soule in the body As Athens is called the Greece of Greece so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church for in respect of them principally are those glorious titles giuen and gracious promises made to the Church which are registred in holy Scripture The third assertion which trencheth neer vpon our question The Church in a larger notion comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus Lactantius defineth the Church Catholica Ecclesia est quae verum Dei cultum retinet hic est fons veritatis hoc est domicilium fidei hoc Templum Dei quo si quis non intrarit vel a quo si quit exiuerit à spe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est c. That is the Catholique Church which retaines the true worship of God This is the Fountaine of truth this the House of faith this is the Temple of God he that shall not enter heerein or shall depart hence is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation Of the Church in this acception our Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood If hee refuse to heare the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican And Saint Lukes Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church c. And Saint Paul 's Despiseyee the Church of God c And in his Epistle to the Ephesians Vnto him bee glory in the Church c. And to Timothy How shall hee take care of the Church of God The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field wherein are tares with the wheat a floore wherein is chaffe with graine a net wherein are sweet fish and rotten an house in which are precious vessels and vile to the Ark in which were cleane and vncleane beasts To the Church taken in this sense Christ directeth vs Tell the Church And Saint Paul That thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the liuing God And Saint Cyprian Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ who leaueth the Church of Christ hee is a stranger hee is a profane person for hee cannot haue God to his Father who hath not the Church for his Mother And Saint Augustine I will not account thee a Christian vnlesse I see thee in the Church The fourth assertion The Church in this notion as it extends to all that professe the true Religion and participate in the pledges of saluation was euer is and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world That it hath euer beene hitherto visible all Histories accord and that it shall so continue to the worlds end our Sauiours words are our warrant Goe yee and teach all nations c. andle I am with you alwaies euen vnto the end of the world For the continuance of Gods Word the Prophet Esay is most peremptory This is my couenant with thee saith the Lord c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from hence-foorth for euer And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments that they shall bee administred till his second comming As oft as yee eat of this Bread and drink of this Cup yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come And lastly S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery He gaue some Apostles some Prophets c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith c. It is true Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church and there shall be such a falling away that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth false prophets and false Christs shall arise and seduce if it were possible the elect but that is not possible hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith and if they retaine it they will also pâ—ofessed it 〈◊〉 for with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation Sainâ— Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the â—onatists What is that that thou sayest The Church 〈◊〉 already perished and gone out of all Nations 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached that it may bee in all Nations therefore euen vnto the end of the world 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point because M. Fisher in his reflection on the Conference spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it as a strong bulwark as hee imagineth against vs. I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest effluere non potest The Church may bee euershadowed it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉 The fift assertion The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible but sometimes it is more visible sometimes it is lesse It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes when he sung In Iurie is God knowne his name is great in Israel then it was in the time that Hosea prophecies of Israel shall remain many daies without a King and without a sacrifice It was more visible in the daies Malachie foreshews of From the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe there of my name shall be great among the Gentiles then in the daies Eliah complaineth of I euen I am left alone The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon when she is compared to a Queene honourably attended then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of when shee is compared to a Woman flying into the wildernesse Shee was more visible in the daies Esay fortelleth of Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy nursing mothers then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie when Kings shall giue their Kingdome to the beast In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church Micah giueth her this Motto Reioyce not ouer mee O my enemy though I fall I shall rise againe And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone My Loue is faire as the Moone To which ground Saint Austen alluding interpreteth Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned the Church in trouble and persecution And Saint Ambrose Ecclesia vt Luna defectus habet et orâ—us frequentes The Church as the Moone hath her often waxings and wainings And in his Epistle The Moone it selfe whereby in the
Oracles of the Prophets the countenance of the Church is figured when at the first rising againe shee is renued into the ages of the moneth shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night and by little and little filling her hornes or right ouer against the Sunne rounding them doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse The sixt assertion The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible conspicuous and ample then the true Church and consequently eminent Visibility amplitude and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church The glorious face and outside of a Church which dazleth our aduersaries eyes was rather against Michea then for him all the Prophets prophecied c. It was rather against Eliah then for him for there were 450 Priests of Baal besides Câ—â—marims and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe It was rather against Ieremy then for him when all the Priests took counsell against him saying The law shall not depart from the Priest c. Nay the glorious outside and face of a Church was rather against Christ himselfe then for him All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus Since Christs death to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks the Arrians vndoubtedly would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp for some hundreds of yeres if that were a safe triall for Saint Ierome complaineth Tunc vsiae nomen abolitum est tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est Then the name of substance was abolished then the condemnation of the â—â—cene Creed was proclaimed the whole world sighed and maruelled that it became Arrian Vincentius putâ— theâ— case what was to be done Quando saith he Arrianorum venenuÌ„ non ià m portiunculam quandam sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion but in a manner the whole world insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops partly by force and partly by cunning were intrapped and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes These things beeing so may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Where are they now who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs and boast of their wealth who define the Church by multitude and despise the little flock of Christ who honour the sand and reproach the greater lights of heauen who treasure vp Check-stones and passe by Margarites The seauenth Assertion When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church in opposition to the other the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church is by trying their doctrine by Scripture To this touch-stone of truth the Prophet Esay directeth vs To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them And our blessed Sauiour Search the Scriptures for in them you think yee haue eternall life And S. Peter We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie vnto which you doe well if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place By this rule the Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Saint Austen best approoueth of this course to come to the knowledge of the true Church In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church And Non audiamus Haec dico Haec dicis sed audiamus 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus Sunt certi libri Dominici quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam Let vs not heare I say this or Thou saist this but let vs heare This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God to whose authority wee both consent there let vs seeke the Church And after much debating the matter hee concludeth the Chapter with these words Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus therefore let vs seeke her the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures And Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam Aug. ep 48. Saint Basil directeth vs to the same course 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With whomsoeuer doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side To forbeare more allegations the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew hearing the name of S. Chrysostome deliuereth a firmer conclusion in formall and expresse tearmes and that seuerall times shewing that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it 〈…〉 modis â—stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi et quae Gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur quae vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per Scripturas quare quia omnia haec quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate habent et haereses illae in schemate similiter Ecclesiam similiter scripturas similiter baptismum similiter eucharistiam et caetera omnia demâ—m ipsum Christum Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis nisi tantummodo per Scripturas Et pòst Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scripturaâ— Formerly it was shewed many waies what was the true Church of Christ and what was Gentilism but now it is knowne no other way which is the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures Wherefore because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth euen those heresies haue in shadow in like manner the Church in like manner the Scriptures in like manner Baptisme in like manner the Lords Supper and all other things finally Christ himselfe Hee therfore who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it in such a great confusion of multitude but onely by the Scriptures And a little after Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it but onely by the Scriptures It is obserued by those who follow the Law that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement iurisdiction of the Court he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries but distrust and despaire of their cause to detract as they doe from the perfection and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for deciding all controuersies And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in caâ—sa diffidentiam
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
of the second For as when the people at Capua were so incensed against the Senatours that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too a wise man among them aduised them before they put the ould Senatours to the sword to thinke of fitter men to put in their places which when they could not agree vpon in the end it was resolued that the ould should continue In like manner if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie as the Iesuites make this to bee I require of the Iesuites to produce fitter men better Authors who liued in those times in case they cannot then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde not to make such as wee wish And therefore Scaliger as truly as tartly reproueth Baronius quod Annales faceret non scriberet that he wrote not Annales but made them out of his owne braine A true Record though neuer so foule-written and torne is better then a forged Deed though neuer so faire and legible Some later Papists excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs shall not disable those Authors vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them For example though Genebrard or Coccius or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas Vâ—spergensis or 〈…〉 Câ—rdinalis or Platina or Auentinus yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists These cautions and distinctions premised I will now set downe the state of this second question in the Assertions following The first Assertion AMong the Professors of the Truth there may be differences of iudgement not onely touching rites and ceremonies and matters of discipline but also touching points of doctrine so the points be not main and fundamentall or such as are cleerly â—nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Teâ—ts of Scripture This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul If any man build on this Foundation gold c. or hay and stubble c. if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer losse but hee himself shall be saued c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine without which a man cannot be saued and doctrines built vpon the Foundation which may be held or not held without danger of saluation Saint Ambrose alludes If there be any Church which refuseth faith and â—eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine lest it should cast any spot on vs it must bee forsaken And Saint Prosper where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies Some like the Pelagian poisoning the bowels and surprising the very vitals of Christs mysticall Body others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart and therefore not so dangerous Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall and not fundamentall The former he calleth Fidei regulaâ—â— the rule of faith the later Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas subtill questions concerning the Law of God in which he saith we need not much seek the Fathers consent Saint Austen also when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction Sanctus inquit Constantinopolitanusnegat esse in paruulis originale peccatum Holy saith he Iohn of Constantinople denieth that originall sinne is in little children Absit vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis maximeque Romano Innocentio Carthaginensi Cypriano Cappadoci Basilio Gregorio Nazianzeno Gallo Hilario Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant alius aliò vna de re meliùs aliquid dicit veriùs Hoc autem de quo nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta GOD forbid that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops especially Innocent Bishop of Rome Cyprian of Carthage Basil of Cappadocia Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France and Ambrose of Millain Some things there are in which the most learned and best defenders of the catholique rule the bond of faith preserued do somtimes not agree among themselues and one in some one thing saith somewhat better and righter than another But this wherein now we deal belongeth to the very grounds of faith Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction neither we nor the Romane Church nor the Greek nor any Church now in Christendome is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age much lesse in all Ages And therefore if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions I must aduise him in the words of Constantine the Great spoken to Nouatus to make a ladder and go vp to heauen alone As the Fathers differ from vs in some things so also they differ among themselues yet as they esteemed themselues notwithstanding these differences to be members of the same Catholick Church so doo we esteem the said Fathers professors of our Protestant Doctrine Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also and yet they cannot deny but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment Papias the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error and Iustin Martyr Iraeneus Lactantius and the Fathers generally before Saint Ierome's time had their teeth set on edge therewith Scaliger well seen in Antiquity obserues Omnes veteres Christianos etiam infra aetatem Augustini putâsse animas tam piorum quà m impiorum in centro terrae tanquam quodam conceptaculo expectare diem iudicij quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit In candidâ expectare diem iudicij Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt All the antient Christians yea euen before the time of Saint Augustine thought the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly in the centre of the earth as it were in some receptacle to expect the day of iudgement which Tertullian elegantly calls In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion Saint Cyprian findeth great fault with those who before his time administred the
This Cope acknowledgeth in his Dialogues As for corrupting antient Authors and circumcising later I referre all that desire to be satisfied in this point to T. I. his Treatise of the corruptions c. as also to the Indices expurgatorij Quiroga and Sanctouall The flourishing Fencer Campian in his first reason termeth Protestants difficiles Aristarchâ—s 〈◊〉 arrepta virgula censoria si quae ad stomachum 〈◊〉 faciunt obliterant But doe not Papists more truly deserue to bee censured censorious Aristarchi For as Aristarchus vsed to raze out the verses of Homer which hee liked not so hee that hath but halfe an eie may see that the Romanists in their Indices expurgatorij blot out of all sorts of Authors whatsoeuer liketh them noâ— or any way makes against them But wee hope wee shall shortly haue a Vindex for their Index And therefore leauing the further prosecution of this point I will now set downe my last Assertion and generall conclusion Notwithstanding all the difficulties aboue-mentioned yet God hath not left his truth though too much opposed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee without witness in all Ages as may appeare by the learned labors of diuers Protestants aboue mentioned out of whose large fields as also mine owne particular obseruations I haue gleaned a brief Catalogue which may suffice to poynt out a Protestant successiue Church from Age to Age. The beginning of the Catalogue For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe and maintaine in the Church of England I alledge IN the first Age from Christs birth to 100 yeeeres CHRIST IESVS The twelue Apostles Saint Iohn Baptist. Saint Mark Saint Luke Saint Paul with his schollers Titus Timothy and the Churches planted or watered by them Romanes Corinthians c. Clemens about the yeere 90. Ignatius about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote The Tralians Magnesians Tarsians Philadelphians c. In the second Age from 100. to 200. Polycarpus 140. Iustin Martyr 150. Methodius 155. Dionysius Corinthiacus 158. Hegesippus 160. Melito Sardensis 170. Polycrates cum Synodo Asiaâ—â—ca 180 Saint Irenaeus 190. Clemens Alexandrinus 200. These Professors of the truth 〈◊〉 denying others I alledge for the two 〈◊〉 centuries further we proceeded not in 〈◊〉 Conference and therefore heere I 〈◊〉 a stop for a time and withall a challenâ—â— to M. Fisher to set downe the names 〈◊〉 his supposed Papists for these two 〈◊〉 Ages together with such poynts of 〈◊〉 Romish Religion as he will prooue 〈◊〉 they maintained which after hee haâ—â— done I will make good my witnesses anâ— disprooue his and then proceed to 〈◊〉 succeeding Ages euen vnto Luther if 〈◊〉 permit Hic rhodus hic saltus Hic modus haec nostro signabitur area currâ— A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer vnder the name of A. C. to a Treatise intituled The Fisher caught in his owne Net AS Velleius Paterculus obserues that In the battell at Philippi in which Brutus should haue taken Anthony to task and Cassius Augustus it fell out cleane contrary so that Brutus met with Augustus and Anthony marched against Cassius So it came to passe in this present combate D. White prepared and prouided to encounter M. Fisher his former Antagonist and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant to deale in a second place with M. Sweet if occasion were offered Yet vpon a cunning trick of the Iesuite discouered immediately before the Conference it was then on the place of the meeting resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibility of the Protestants Church and D. White as there should bee cause should take off M. Sweet if he interposed as also answer in the contrary question propounded to the Iesuites touching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages Thus D. Featly who intended to be but an Assistant contrary to his expectation was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation Wherin that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell and satisfie his Auditory hee set before his eies certaine rules partly taken out of Scripture partly out of the antient Fathers to direct his proceedings by them The first rule is Saint Paul's Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory God is not in the fire of contention nor in the whirle-winde of passion but in the still voice of them who in meeknesse of spirit seeke the truth out of loue of truth it selfe not of desire of victory Nolunt Scripturâ— ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt The Scriptures will not instruct those who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well if the water bee cleere we may easily discerne it but if troubled it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it For this cause D. Featly in the beginning of the disputation as is confessed by A. C. earnestly besought M. Fisher to deale sincerely as in the sight of God setting aside all passion and by-respects and when M. Sweet propounded that condition that all bitter speeches should be auoided D. Featly with the rest most willingly accepted of it and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it The second rule is Nazianzens 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is the best order in all speech and actions to begin and end with God According to which prescription D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ended partly with a doxologie adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour blessed for euer at whose Name all knees must bow both in heauen and earth and vnder the earth partly by an holy adjuration M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudgement The third rule is Epiphanius his who obserueth in a Disputation against the Photinians quòd adhibiti sunt qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae dicebantur quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur there were appointed Notaries who did take that which was said on both sides and their notes afterward were signed by both parties According to which obseruation M. Ailsbury was chosen and accepted of as Notary on both sides and D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers and this schedule containing the substance of the arguments and Answers in the end of the Conference was sealed with three seales the Earle of Warwicks Master Boultons and Master Bugges The fourth rule is Tâ—rtâ—llians first to 〈◊〉 the ground and set vp as it were the goales by determining the state of the question Summam quaestionis saith he certis line is determinemus aduersus Marcionem L. 17. His
the conference make any such long discourse Vntruth for first D. White was appointed in the beginning of the Conference for the last houre and half to answer M. Fisher in the contrary Question for the Visibility of the Roman Church The first houre and half was already spent and therefore D. White had iust occasion and reason to call vpon M. Fisher as hee did to prooue the Visibility of the Romane Church And as for the six points mentioned in the Conference they were the same which D. White shewed Sir Humfrey Linde and mee before the Conference and told vs that he would put M. Fisher vpon the proofe of them Secondly those of the Auditors which sate and stood next about D. White testifie vpon their perfect remembrance that he called vpon M. Fisher to oppose and propounded those six points vnto him set downe in the Conference In which because M. Fisher found himself vnable to deal with Doctor White therefore he makes bold to borrow a point of Iesuiticall honesty Fairly to deny that any such points were proposed Page 35. M. Fisher solemnly protested vpon his conscience that wittingly and willingly hee did neuer wrong either D. White or D. Featly in report of any conference To this nothing was replied and therefore I suppose that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fisher's sincerity in his relation Vntruth for D. Goad immediately replied that what M. Fisher wrote was for his owne aduantage and therefore he could not but suspect that he did it wittingly and willingly See the Attestation to the Conference Page 37. D. Featly turning to M. Fisher said Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or not To which M. Fisher said I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand he took D. Featly by his arme offering to stay him yet he D. Featly in that abrupt manner went away Vntruth So many words almost so many vntruthes and God be thanked there are witnesses enow to conuince the Counter-relator of a fignall and transcendent leasing in this last passage See the Attestation I might furnish this Head and common place of M. Fisher with many more instances but these may suffice to prooue that M. Fisher deemeth himself one of those that haue past Thyle who if we may beleeue Synesius may lie by authority and without controule Of the second Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Contradiction reade Page 14. Hee alleageth my words thus Although this Question be grounded vpon vncertain and false Supposals For a Church may haue been visible yet not the Names of all visible Professors thereof now to be shewed c. And again page 32. Are all visible Names vpon Record Are all Records in former times now to bee produced And again in the same page M. Sweet calling for Names of Protestants well might say If Protestants had been in all Ages their Names in euery Age might bee produced vnto which as the Protestant Relator saith and the Counter-Relator denieth not D. Featly replied saying This is a non sequitur And page 19. he propoundeth my Argument thus That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue not we shall be so visible that the Names thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this faith Ergo. And again in repeating the like argument That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints is so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages To this Maior Proposition I added page 21. The Maior is ex concessis neither doth the Counter-Relator deny that these words were added Yet page 49. M. Fisher in his Letter to the Earle of Warwick saith They are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged than before hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee is able to name Professors in all Ages CONTRADICTION Doctor Featly professeth acknowledgeth that The true Church ought to be so visible as that it is able to name professors in all ages Doctor Featly holdeth not that The true Church ought to be so visible c. but disputed ad hominem and ex concessis aduersarij not according to his owne iudgement Page 32. M. Fisher had no reason to diuert to particular matters in regard it was his Aduersaries fault to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes And page 48. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proof to haue consisted in this that The true Church ought alwaies to be so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named But the Protestants was the true Church We refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferred the Question And in many other places he cals my Argument from the truth of faith to the Visibility of the Church A diuersiue Proof And page 34. Dilatory and iâ—pertinent Syllogisms Yet Page 23. he saith In asking which is the true visible Church wee ask at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true visible Church cannot bee without the true faith yes therefore doo we ask which is the true Church that of it we may learn what is the true faith And page 69. line 14. That the right order of things requireth thâ—â— first it onely be disputed to whom the faith belongeth which is all one say you as if he should say Which is the true visible Church CONTRADICTION In the Question touching the Visibility of the true Church it is impertinent and a diuersion to dispute of the true faith In the Question of the visibility of the true Church it is not impertinent nor a diuersion to dispute of the true faith because the Question of the true faith is vertually at least included in the Question of the true Church Page 37. Doctor Featly in his rising turned to Master Fisher saying Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or no To which Master Fisher said I will if you will stay And in the same page Master Fisher did not prohibit him Doctor Featly to begin with the names of Christ and his Apostles And againe M. Fisher expressed his yeelding to dispute about Christ and his Apostles two seuerall times once thus I will dispute of them in due place Another time thus I wil if you wil stay Yet Pag. 64. he writeth thus M. Fisher and M. Sweet still kept the Aduersary to the point and would not permit him to diuert either to dispute about Christ and his Apostles or any other point vntill names were giuen in all ages The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason And Pag 65. hee alleadgeth two reasons for it See them there And Page 71. M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him D. Featly out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made
originall written Relation there was no such figure infarced The Printers tripping is not to be taken for a stumble of the Relators nay it is rather maruelled that he tripped no more beeing so hastie to 〈◊〉 without his errâ—nd And to thrust out a Relation without direction authority of the like stamp is that error of the Printer Page 20. line 6. where the originall copie went thus 〈◊〉 againe those of M. Fisher 's side calling for 〈◊〉 Where are your names D. White said This is nothing but apparant tergiuersation c. The shallow Printer not vnderstanding this passage inuerted the sentence thus D. White said Where are your names and thereby wholly peruerted the sence D. White called not for names but 〈◊〉 the Popish Auditors for vnseasonably and vnciuilly calling for names when M. Fisher was at a stand The third straw you stumble at is That the Protestant Relator seemeth to say that the Priests and Iesuites cast out papers c. You say this is not true and yet you your selfe here mention three such papers scattered by you and I haue receiued a fourth written by your man and Sir Hamfrey Lynde hath seene a fift and M. Walker M. Rogers a sixt and seuenth Whereunto also they haue returned Answers the one in print the other in written hand Let the Reader then iudge whether the Protestant Relator any way ouerlashed in charging you with the dis-spreading of such papers The Protestant Relation Paragraph the second touching the state of the Question to bee disputed of At the beginning of this Meeting when the Disputants were set D. Featly drew out the paper in which the Question aboue-rehearsed was written with the words in the Margent viz. I will answer that it was not and demanded of M. Fisher whether this were his owne hand which Doctor Featlie's Reply You talke of prescribing methods and proportions to be obserued on both sides as if wee fought vnder your banner or were to receiue the law from you Who made you dictator and M. Sweet your Magister equitum that you take vpon you to enact Martiall Law for sacred 〈◊〉 in the truthes quarrell Verily if you prescribe no better lawes in this kind then those that are set downe in the Conference and auowed in your defence viz. In a good Syllogisme to answer to the conclusion To distinguish on a proposition and apply it to no learn To prooue an effect alwaies by an effect because aâ— effect is posterius c. you are fitter to bee a Law-giuer among the Alogi then the Logicians inter Alogos then Logicos The Protestant Relation Paragraph the third touching the conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants M. Sweet Before you proceed to dispute desire these conditions may be assented 〈◊〉 on both sides First that All bitter speeches bee forborn Secondly that None speak but Disputants Master FISHER About this time M. Sweet propounded these conditions to be obserued First That all bitter speeches should be for borne Secondly That nothing should be spoken or heard â—ut to the purpose Which second he did propound to preuent impertinent digressions Doctor FEATLY This second condition was not propounded by M. Sweet at the Conference as is prooued in the Attestation page 40. but is since deuised by M. Fisher to set a faire Glosse and colour on his and M. Sweet's miserable shifts and euasions responsum nullum dant praeter vnicum quod semper dant nihil ad propositum whatsoeuer they are not able to answer to that is with them nothing to the purpose To the instance in fifteene nouelties of the Romish faith M. Sweet answered as you report page 16. that Those things were then impertinent and nothing to the purpose To Sir Lynde's motion to M. Sweet to dispute of Transubstantiation out of Saint Austen M. Sweet answered That is not now to the Question To my proofe a priori of the Visibility of the Protestant Church M. Sweet answereth page 19. That is not to the Question you ought to prooue the truth of your Church à posteriori That is to the Question To giue some relish and taste to these vnsauory Answers of M. Sweet's You faine a Prouiso of his which indeede is a Procudo of your owne That M. Sweet answered this according to law for there was a Law forsooth made That nothing should be spoken or heard but to the purpose How those things aboue-al-leadged were to the purpose and touched the very Apple of the eye of the Question shall bee shewed in due place In the meane time let the Reader note that M. Fisher taketh more liberty then the fained supposititious decree of Geneuâ— giueth him for that alloweth a man onely to lie for Gods honour but heere M. Fisher coyneth a lie onely for M. Sweet's credit The Protestant Relation Paragraph the fourth touching the Inuisibility of the Romish Church for more than 500 yeeres after Christ. Before I propound my Argument I craue leaue in few words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse wherewith you draw and delude many of the Ignorant and Vnlearned You beare them in hand that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant before Luther and that all the world beleeued as you doo That your Church hath not been onely visible in all Ages and all times but eminently conspicuous and illustrious Which is such a notorious vntruth that I heer offer before all this Company to yeeld you the better and acknowledge my selfe ouercomne if you can produce out of good Authors I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any City Parish or Hamlet within fiue hundred yeers next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named maintaining and defending either your Trent-Creed in generall or these points of Popery in speciall That there is a Treasury of Saints merits and superaboundant satisfactions at the Pope's disposing That the Laity are not commanded by Christ's Institution to receiue the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in both kinds c. then to answer them yet certainly it is now most needfull If you mean not to answer them at least repeat them This you dare not doo for feare your disciples should take offence You dare not pull away the curtain lest your nakednes should be seen You are wise in your owne generation you knowe how to keep those in the dungeon whom you hould in captiuity They must not see a glimpse of light lest they should look after more You forbid your Captiues to reade our Relations and in your owne you slubber-ouer whatsoeuer toucheth you neer You well knew M. Fisher that Antiquity neuer knew your drossie treasure of superaboundant satisfactions nor your dry suppers without the Lords Cup nor your solitary Communions without Communicants nor your vnintelligible praiers nor your ignorant deâ—otion nor your irregular canonizing of Traitors nor your painted flames oâ— Purgatory nor your cony-catching Indulgences nor any of the like new trash And
ceaseth Doctor Featly You haue a purpose Master Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue till his second Comming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shal be so visible that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. Master Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacie called Petitio principii Doctor Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not Petitio principij But such is my Argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder Argument to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Heretikes Mahumetanes and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible Master Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori Doctor Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better then an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapous I list take you what buckler you can Master Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause better then of the cause by the effect In this place or vpon the like occasion againe offered neerer the end of the disputation Master Sweet replied M. Sweet This is to diuert the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good Authors Doctor Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it Master Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori Doctor Featly What a reason is this May not an effect bee prooued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius Master FISHER'S Answer Thus farre the Relator who hath heere added much more then was said and in particular those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Master Fisher did not speake perhaps hee might say That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then à priori not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori before that which is à priori but that such a proofe à posteriori as hee in this present question required and as the question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church as shall be shewed when need is heereafter At this present it may suffieâ—â—â— say to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible and as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting so visible as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker contr Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glorie of the Church is most cleerly witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of Doctor Iohn White in his way p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing all this I say it is most apparant that if there cannot bee produced as there cannot Names of Protestants or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages out of Histories to whom Gods promises agree besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith and of which al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation Doctor FEATLY'S Reply I maruel not M. Fisher that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds for you haue much adoo with all your strength and skil to get yourself out of the mire M. Sweet since he left our Vniuersities and was metriculated into your Society seemes to speak in our Academicall Phrase to haue resumed gradum Simeonis and to haue proceeded backward for whatsoeuer truth in Logick or Philosophy hee had learned in our Schools he hath learned to vnlearn in yours It seemeth he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was who took double pay of his scholars for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others Hee was taught in our Schools that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated but by the cause for Scire est causam scire propter quam c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a scientificall Syllogism proceeding of those things that are former in nature and more knowne and causes of the conclusion All this he hath vnlearned and will needs go about to perswade vs that An effect because it is posterius must needs be proued by an effect and by the same reason that effect by another effect and Thirdly the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie or mystery of iniquity in it which is not the Church but a preualent and predominant faction in it The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member though a sick and weak one of the Catholique visible Church and consequently to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church in the Gospell but the Papacy or that predominant faction is no member but a botch or an aposteme in the Church to which none of those promises belong yet many
Prince Castilians Courtier namely Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia extra anni solisque vias To vndertake to make a demonstration consisting ex veris primis immediatis prioribus notioribus causis conclusionis is all one saith Ludouicus Viues as if to cure a most dangerous disease a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples the first whereof is found in India the second amongst the Ceres the third in the Riphean Hilles and the fourth in the nest of a Phenix If that demonstration which they call potissima the soueraigne demonstration and non parâ—iell containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe consisting of all tearmes reciprocall and all propositions inabled and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de omni per se et quatenus ipsum were any where in vse it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks the most certaine Science and fullest of euident demonstrations but Pererius the Iesuite and others with him vndertake to prooue that the Mathematicians vse no such demonstrations and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude that such absolute demonstrations exalted to the highest degree of necessity presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding are meere imaginary speculations Let the Philosophers and Logicians among themselues end this controuersie I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side But setting aside that Idea of demonstration and speaking of such demonstrations à priori or à causâ as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration as demonstrations go current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick The Church holding the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith c. For the Maior or first proposition it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed before in the setting downe of the state of the Question touching the Visibility of the Church assertion the fourth and partly vpon that Text of the Apostle With the hart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse and with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation The Minor or assumption is most necessarily true because this eternall faith is the formall cause constituting and making the true Church for as Laurentius rightly argueth Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam quatâ—nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei Romani c. sedquatenus sunt fideles ergo fides doctrina fidei est causa formalis interna Ecclesiae et per eam Ecclesia constituitur et per eandem dignoscitur Men make not the Church simply as they are Europeans or Romanes or Africans or Britans or the like but as they are of the faithfull or holding the faith therefore faith and the Doctrine thereof is the formall and internall cause of the Church and by it the Church is made a Church and distinguished from all other societies Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith a proper attribute or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 demonstrated of the proper subiect the true Church by the proper and neerest cause the eternity of faith and what more is to be required in a true demonstration à priori You will say this demonstrateth that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible but not that the Protestant Church I reply either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church or not if it be supposed to bee the true Church then hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted then you should haue primarily denied this and put vs to the proofe of it which beeing prooued would inferre the Visibility but this you did not and I think durst not in the Conference for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced yet now since the Conference you are growne so hardy as to deny it and therefore thus I proue it A Church holding professing entirely the perpetuall faith needfull to saluation is a true Church The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith c. Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur. The Maior is confessed of all sides and must be so because there is no saluation without the Church where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed there must needs bee the Church The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed The Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the perpetuall faith c. The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth The Assumption is thus confirmed The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures contained in the three Creeds The Apostles Creed the Nicen Creed and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures and contained in the three Creeds and foure Councels aboue-named Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints In this last Syllogisme the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies First by the publique profession and practice of the Church of England and other Protestant Churches Secondly by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith out of the principles aboue-named Thirdly by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe And first it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches that the Protestant Doctrine is that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued vnder paine of eternall damnation which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them All the Protestant Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named and for the foure first generall Councels there is no Protestant who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood if hee be cald thereunto Secondly there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance where and when they will we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field On the contrarie besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture therefore according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques Cùm
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and
moment and ground of the whole question Hee putteth the case that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse Surely a blind or verie credulous creditor that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket O patience Good Sir Creditor if you can vpon your credit make good that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne namely Christ and his Apostles are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest But if this field wherein this precious pearle lyeth bee by good title ours as I then would and at any time hereafter can proue I think vpon such conuiction you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie Doe but looke on this coyne though loth and see whose image and superscription it carryeth is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter the Scriptures They are ours by Christ Christ ours by them The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles that Christ and his Apostles and Euangelists cannot bee admitted nay will not bee embased to bee mingled with such drosse But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money Similie I thought you had vowed pouerty and might not touch siluer I haue heard of some of your orders that if they touch coyne it blisters their hands as it is reported of a certaine Lady that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep it will make it blister But it seemeth to mee that you are Theocritus his Fisher you fish for gold and if you are not wronged haue caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net and transported them beyond the seas carrying Rem ad non res no smal stock to English Nunneries I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie to illustrate this passage in the conference thus you may frame it Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ to bee sixteen-hundred pound suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound I by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age lay downe a hundred pound of the summe and bid you tell it after me and then demand of you whether the summe bee right You answer that you will tell mee after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds I presse you again againe to answer concerning this first summe whether it be right or no if it be right I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner You answer as before Lay downe the rest or you shall not begin with the first next heap but with the last in coÌ„clusion I charge you as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master whose factor you pretend to bee to giue-ouer all cauilling plainly directly to answer me whether this first sum be right or not and when notwithstanding this deep charge you trifle cauill the witnesses who were to set their hands to my acquittaÌ„ce pul me away saying You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor This is a true perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eleuenth touching the issue of the Conference This Conference though it took not that progresse which was desired by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument yet it hath not beene fruitlesse for since that time the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde and gaue him many thankes for the said meeting and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes and whereas formerly by their sophisticall perswasions hee was in some doubt of the Church hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company and their doctrine also Master FISHER'S Answer I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator saith is not true for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature for first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to bee made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey If immediately after the Conference it would argue too much want of capacitie for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied as I verily hope hee did hee might easily haue marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off and 〈◊〉 produce names of Protestants in all Ages the which producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages and yet beeing onely pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther at the question required any meane capacitie might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied was not fully answered nor consequently hee satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman beeing present when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages hee might easily and doubtlesse did vnderstand that as yet 〈◊〉 in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which hee expected Answer Furthermore presently after hee went away from the Conference hee told M. Fisher himselfe that hee was glad that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not â—ore solute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M Sweet hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the 〈…〉 that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweet haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctors to make theirs ready that hee bring to them the Doctors Catâ—logue with one hand and receiue theirs with the others to deliuer to the Doctors All that can bee suspected is that in the very time of the said stir when the old Gentleman either was or feared to bee called in question it may perhaps bee that he might say those words which the Relator mentioneth But this if
former acknowledge that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth which since Luther blessed bee God hath beene much more cleerely discouered and trodden then in former times If Protestant Writers sway little with you who yet could better tell then you or M. Sweet and such other new vpstart Iesuites who were Luthers forerunners learne of your owne Rainerius and Claudius de Seissel and Cocleus and Lyndanus and Claudius Rubis and Aeneas Syluius and Iohn Dubranius and Alfonsus à Castro and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet and many other that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther and shewed him his way Yea but Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell Schlusenburgs words are Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ priusquam prodiret Lutherus euangelij doctrinam tenüisse adeoque ipsum Pellicanum priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse Vtenboius writes impudently that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther appeared and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory before the name of Luther was heard For ought I know Vtenboius is as honest a man as Schlusenburgius and if Schlusenburgius deny it Vtenboius affirmeth it yea and for ought is prooued to the contrary Conradus Pellicanus also yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master no way helpeth your cause for admit there were not in Germany yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands as in Bohemia France England c. who before Luther embraced the doctrine of the Gospell Secondly in Germany it selfe there were not multi eruditi viri many learned men yet there might be some for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke His words are Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista causa non fuisset If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation Therefore we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie to whom Luther succeeded for if there had beene such in the Romane Church there had beene no cause to depart from it What makes this testimony for you Is it for the honor of your Church to bee truly branded with Apostasie to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the Papacy will it follow that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere It is true Reformation presupposeth a Deformation as a remedy presupposeth a disease a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged Though the Romane Church or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church was vnsound in the faith and very corrupt and rotten yet were there other sound members of Christs Church in whose steps it is well knowne that Luther trod What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth that There were 〈◊〉 orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther Now for Benedictus Morgenst Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra Hee who found him for you makes him runne the same way with Ioachimus Camerarius but not whither you would haue him They both stand for the honor of Luther and maintaine that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation that none ought to share with him in that dignity in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches They will not endure that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne but out of the Fountaine of liuing water the Scriptures Wicklef indeed saith Ioachimus was instructed by the Waldenses and Hus by Wicklef but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef but was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taught of himselfe out of Scriptures This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther Zuinglius and Pellicanus and Vtenboius and your owne Alfonsus à Castro seeme to make others as ready forward at that time as Luther And indeed whether Luther set Zuinglius or Zuinglius Luther first a-work or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple I hold it needlesse to define Let Luther and Zuinglius and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches Ne sit primus nec vel imus quispiam Will it follow that because Luther was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and did not tind his candle at another mans light therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time but hee It will follow say you because Morgenst addeth that It is manifest to the whole world that before Luther's time all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse And you adde also to Morgenst fiue other corroboratory testimonies of Caluin Bucer Beza Iewell and Perkins whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer I will dismisse you Master FISHER And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Masters I will adde heereunto what is said first by Caluin who doth acknowledge that in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this time ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that there was at that time no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was onely inuisible as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines namely Master Iewel who saith The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell and M. Perkins who saith Wee say that before the daies of Luther for the space of many hundred yeeres an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the world Doctor FEATLY When Caluin saith There was a departure made from all the world and Morgenst That
sweating vnder the Presse Admit there had beene no ordinary calling of right-beleeuing Church-men Bishops or Priests when Luther did first sound his siluer Trumpet what will you inferre thereupon that at that time there was no visible Church There Beza leaues you who professeth both a visible Church in generall consisting of members sound and vnsound and these more or lesse and in particular hee calleth the Waldenses The seed of the most pure antient Christian Church which was miraculously preserued in the midst of the darknes and errors which haue beene hatched by Satan in these latter times And as Beza leaues you in this your inference so also doth the Truth For although the Ship of Christ is in great danger when erronious Pastors like false lights are set vp in the Watch-Towers of Sion yet sith our chiefe Pilot hath forewarned vs heereof and bid vs take heede of false prophets and teachers and hath left vs a most certaine direction in his Word which is the true Light 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conduct vs to those pulchri portus the faire Hauens in Heauen the people of God may keepe the right way and through Gods grace escape the quick-sands of heresie As God bestoweth diuers gifts of the Spirit ordinarily vpon the Clergie so he bestoweth also where he pleaseth Spiritum discretionis in the Laytie a Spirit whereby they may discerne spirits whether they are of God or no a Spirit by which trying all things they may hold fast that is good And if their ghostly Fathers offer them a stone for bread or a Serpent for fish they will cast it away Or if more cunningly they shall mingle error and heresie with truth and offer them as your Teachers did and doe an apple with a worme in it or a cup of wine with a dead Fly they will take out the worm and Fly and then eat of the one and drink of the other This is that which Lydius truly obserueth Oft-times the eares of the Auditors are purer then the tongue of the Preacher Hee deliuers vngarbled spices they garble it vnsifted meale they sift and boult it impure milke they straine it In the daies of Ieremy and much more after the death of the Prophet Malachy vntill the birth of Christ there were few Doctors in Israel that rightly expounded the Law and taught Gods people as they ought yet no man doubts that God had then a visible Church as also afterwards in the time of the Arrian Eutychian persecution in which there were very few Bishops or Pastors vntainted with those heresies Therefore although we should grant you your antecedent out of Beza that there was no ordinary vocation at that time of pure and sincere Teachers yet wee will barre you of your conclusion that at that time there was no visible Church Our English Diuines alledged by you affirme no such thing Perkins saith not that our Church was simply inuisible but that it was not visible to the world adding in the same place that it lay hid vnder the chaffe of Popery And the truth of this saith hee the Records of all Ages manifest The same Perkins in his Reformed Catholick more fully explaineth his meaning thus Though Popery raigned and ouerspred the face of the earth for many hundred yeeres yet in the middest thereof God reserued a people to himselfe that truly worshipped him The woman fled into the wildernesse c. And she still retaines a remnant of her seed which keepe the commandement of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Christ. See here how farre hee is from denying a Protestant Church extantâ— that he affirmeth it to haue growne vp and thriued euen in the Thicket of Popery though much ouer-shadowed and ouer-topped Neither can you finde any flaw or cloud in that orient Geâ—â—â—â— of our Church Bishop Iewell whose words are these When in the middest of the darknesse of that Age first beganne to spring and shine some glimmering beame of truth vnknowne at that time and 〈◊〉 of When also Martin Luther and Hâ—lderick Zuinglius beeing most excellent men euen seek from God to giue light to the whole world first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell c. A Diamond cannot bee cut or polished but by a Diamond Let therefore this Iewell brighten and cleere himselfe In the same part of the Apologie Chap. 5. Diuis 1. hee calleth Martin Luther the publisher and setter forward of this doctrine not the Author And Chap. 14. Diuis 1. he fully cleeres the point in difference betweene vs touching visible Protestants before Luther Many 〈◊〉 many learned and godly men haue often and carefully complained how all these things haue cleered 〈◊〉 time For euen in the middest of that 〈◊〉 darknesse God would yet there should bee some who though they gaue not a cleere bright light yet should kindle were it but some sparks which men being in darknesse might espie And hee particularly 〈…〉 Hillary Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugdâ—â—◠〈◊〉 Bishops of Greece and Asia as also 〈…〉 Petrach Sauanarolla and others And Chapter 15. he preuenteth a câ—uill that might haue bin made against these witnesses of the truth by some ignorant persons Neither saith hee can any man alleage that these Authors were Luthers or Zuinglius Schollers for they liued not only certaine yeeres but also certaine Ages â—re euer Luther or Zuinglius names were heard of Now I pray see M. Fisher what a goodly dish of fish you haue serued in to furnish your Table and let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you may safely trust M. Brerâ—ly or wee you in allegations especially out of Protestant Writers whose words either you corrupt or adulterate their meaning or both as euidently appeares in all the places aboue-cited And thus haue I now at length spung'd out all the spots which your pen hath cast on the Conference As for personall aspersions vpon mee especialy of want of grauity and patience I hold it fittest to refell these and the like slanders by silent and patient enduring them As you heerein take Petilian the Donatist for your precedent of impudent railing so I will take Saint Austen for my patterne of silent patience and cloze vp all further Answer in his words Quid mirum si cùm grana de areâ Domini excussa simul paleam intror sum trabo iniuriam resilientis pulueris suffero What maruell if in sweeping the Lords floore and seeking to gather-in graines that are flowne out I endure a little dust Homo sum enim de areâ Christi palea si malus granum si bonus non est hâ—ius area vâ—niâ—labrum lingus Petiliani I am a man and I know I am of Christs floore that is in his true visible Church all the Papists in the world shall neuer disprooue it If I am euill I am chaffe if good I am wheat and whether I bee the one or the other this is my comfort I am sure the
Iesuites tongue is not the fanne of this floore What I haue written touching the visibility of Christs true Church I in all humility submit to the iudgement of the true visible Church I hope the Truth shall suffer nothing because of mee and if I suffer any thing by loose tongues or pens because of the Truth I will account it my Ioy Crowne in the Day of our Lord Iesus Christ To whose sauing grace and boundlesse mercy I commend all those who loue Truth in sincerity 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Because it truly wounded her husband * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Cor. 12. 13. a Vitae Sanct. Brigittae Vitae S. Aldelmi b Festivale de Sancto Nicolao c Legend de Sancto Patricio d Legend de Sancto Stephan e Ep. Clem. ad Iac. in Ep. Pontif. f Vide Breu. picturas Dionys. vel interrog Parisâ—enses g Legend de Dunst. picturae passâ—â— h Histâ—ire de Nâ—stre Dame de Lâ—retto i Annot. in Clemanges ex Caesario k Legend de 〈◊〉 Cant. l Legend de Lâ—pâ— m Legend de 〈◊〉 vid. Mâ—lâ—h 〈◊〉 Theol. n Vitae Francisci o Cheney Martyr Carthus p Sedul Francisc q Author of the Relation of the Western Religion r Vitae Iuâ—â—j s Beza rediuiuus t My Lord of Londons Legacie u Interroga vicinâ—â— de re iam recenti q August Thuan. ad An. 1556. Caramalis Caraffa Lutetiam Regni Metropolâ—m ingreditur solitâ pompâ tanquam Pontificis Legatus vbi cùm signum Crucis vt fit ederet verborum quae proferri mos est loco ferunt eum vt erat securus de numme animo summus Religionum derisor occursante passim populo in genua procuÌ„bente saepiùs secretâ murmuratione haec verba ingeminâsse Quandoquidem c. * M. Alesbury b A Romanist standing by named M. Bolton * Two sects of School-men and Logicians so called * Two sects of School-men and Logicians so called The same Romanist standing by Minor probatur All this was spoken but not committed to writing Tollitur distinctio These words were also spoken but not set down by the Writer Register of the Court of Wards Saint Cyprian was heere mentioned but intended for the first of the third Age. Isa. 6. Apoc. 4. Pag. 15. Pag. 15. Pag. 16. Page 16. Page 20. Page 32. Page 36. Page 37. Page 64. Page 65. * Namely M. Chamberlain Natural hist. l. 36. c. 5. Gladiatorum pugnas spectabat Smaraegdo * Ierom. Apol. ad PamachiuÌ„ * Eras. Apoph * Hieron Apol. ad Pâ—mach cap. 8. * Can. 66. Ministers to conferre with Recusants * 1. Pet. 3. 15 * Tit. 1. 11 * Tit. 1. 9. * Ioh. 10. 12 13 * Gaspar Laurent de publicis disputationibus Plut. apoph * Tert. de praescript cont haeret c. 17. * Quintil. Institut orat Gubernator vult salua naue in portu peruenâ—re si tamen tempestate abreptus fuerit non ideo minus erit gubernator * Rom. 2. 6 Apoc. 20. 13 * Rom. 1. 20 Possid in vit Synop. Cent. * Dial. Octaâ— * Rain Thes. * de veritate religionis Christ. * Cocleus hist. l. 1. l. 21. * Qui me vendit Bibliopola negat Martial Epigr. * Ouid. Metamorph * Apoc. 20. 2. * Orat. de Corona * Eras. Adag * De praescr contr Haeret. c. 16. * Bellar. l. 2. de effect Sacram. c. 25. quod Histories quibus meminerint eorum Conciliorum non potest parere fidem nisi humanam cui potest subesse falsa * 1 Tim. 3. 15 * Eras. Adag * Be. Orat. * Sen. de Ben. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Accuser of the brethren * Mart. Epigr. * Mat. 10. 33 * Luke 12. 8 * Aug. Contra Donatist lib. 6. cap. 4. Idem Spiritus sanctus ea dimittit qui datus est omnibus sanctis sibi charitate cohaerentibus siue se nouerint corporaliter siue non * D. Andrew now Bishop of Winton Resp. ad Apolog. Bellar pag. 20. Protestantium nostris nomen ab euentu fuit errores enim tuÌ„ quosdam abusus non diutius tolerare velle se sed â—am tollere protestati sunt caetera vero quae saâ—a vobiscum retinere * Cocl lib. 5. Ignat. Epist. ad Philad * Acts 11. 26. * Gen. 3. It shall break thy head * Apolog. ad Reg. Ang. Homoousiani Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. militante c. 12. * Heb. 12. 23. * Greg. in Ezek. Hom. 15. l. 2. Vna Ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium Greg. in Cant. Sanctam Ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris exstruxit * Ber. ser. 68. in Cant. Haec est Ecclesia electorum Aug. l. 20. de ciuit Dei c. 8. Nunquam ab illa Ecclesia seduceturpraedestinatae et electa ante constitutionem mundi * In his Catholick moderator * Cocleus Hist. Bohem. l. 3. * Resp. ad Camp * 2. Tim. 2. 29. * Reu. 2. 17. * 1. Cor. 2. 11. * Ier. 17. 9 10. * 1. King 8. 39. * Ier. 20. 12. * Acts 1. 24. * Cyp. l. 3. Ep. 3. Nec quisquam sibi quod soli filio tribuit Pater vindicare se puter vt ad aream ventilandam et purgandam paleam iam ferre se posse c. * Prosp. l. de Grat. libero arbitrio ad Ruffin Certum apud Deuin definitumque esse numerum electorum ad vitam aeternam * Camp rat 3. * Prosp. loc supâ—â— citat * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Lactan. l. 4. Instit. dium c. vlt. * Mat. 18. 17. * Acts 15. 22. * 1. Cor. 11. 22. * Ephes. 3. 2. * 1. Tim. 3. 5. a Mat. 16. 18. b 1. Tim. 3. 15. * Cypr. de simplic praelat Non pertinet ad Christi praemia qui relinquit Ecclesiam Christi alienus est profanus est habere â—am non potest Deum patrem qui Ecclesiam non habet matrem * Aug. confess l. 8. Non deputabo te inter Chrâ—stianos nisi in Ecclesia Christi â—e videro * Mat. 28. 20. * Esay 59. 21. * 1. Cor. 11. 26. * Ephes. 4. 11. 12. 13. * Rom. 10. 10. * Aug. in Ps. 110. conc 2. Quid est quod dicis Iam perijsse Ecclesiam de omnibus gentibus Quando ad hoc praedicatur euangelium vt possit esse in omnibus gentibus ergo ad finem seculi Ecclesia erit in omnibus gentibus * Page 52. 53. * Hexam l. 4. c. 2. * Psal. 79. 1. 2. * Hos. 3. 4. * Mal. 1. 11. * 1. King 19. 18. * Psal. 45. 10. * Reu. 12. 7. * Esay 49. 23. * Apoc. 17. 17. * Mica 7. 8. * Cant. 6. 10. * Aug. in Psal. 10. * Ambrose Hexam l. 4. c. 8. * Ambrose l. 5. ep 31. Luna ipsa qua propheticis oraculis species Ecclesiae figuratur cum primum resurgens in menstruas reparatur aetates tenebris noctis obsconditur paulatimque