that some of his brethren hold that all Sects and opinions are to be tolerated p. 6. So that in case these men should have the upper hand he is assured of a partie at least among them to secure him and his in that kind Secondly he confesseth again and again that his brethren are very pious and holy men and therefore certainly will not be so dogged as to send him and his into any Isle of Dogs Thirdly a poore toleration is as far from a superioritie of power as rags are from the robe or the dunghill from the throne Fourthly I doe not think that he knowes any such Isle as he speaks of whereinto he fears to be sent by the men of his indignation Fifthly and lastly if he should be sent into some Isle of Dogs the soyle and climate might probably agree well with him he hath learned it seems to bark and bite too against his sending thither To conclude for this Reason Whereas feare indeed ordinarily makes men cruell it is much to be feared A. S. onely pretends feare that so he may have a colour to be cruell His 17. Reason answered To his seventeenth Reason we answer First that the Scripture doth not forbid all nor any such Toleration as the Apologists desire This was sufficiently shewed before in our answer to the fifteenth Reason His proofe from Revel 2.20 holds no intelligence at all with his purpose yea it makes sore against himselfe and his Synedrion For first by the toleration or suffering of Jezabel which is there charged as a sinfull neglect upon the Church of Thyatira is not meant a Civill or State-toleration but an Ecclesiastick or Church-toleration This Church suffered false Doctrines to be taught in her very bosome and her members to bee corrupted and endangered thereby from day to day without laying it to heart being a matter of that sad consequence and without calling those to an account that were the sowers of such tares broachers spreaders of such opinions yea without using any means to have the truth soundly taught in opposition to such Doctrines Both Pastour and people it seems slept together whilst the envious man by his Agent and Factress Jezabel sowed these tares in their field Such a toleration as this wee formerly shewed to be sinfull and the Apologists are as much against it as you so far are they from desiring it or suing for it They desire a Toleration for themselves and their Churches in the Civill state not that the errours which spring up in their Churches should be suffered to fret like gangrens without being opposed by them or be protected by the State Secondly whereas that particular Church alone is charged by Christ with this toleration or sufferance of Jezabel and not any more Churches whether neighbours or not neighbours to her nor any combined Eldership or state Ecclesiasticall made of the consociation of the seven Churches much less any state civill evident it is that the care and power of redressing emerging enormities or evils in a Church in every kinde is committed by Christ to every particular Church respectively within it self And so they that trouble the Church must as you say be cut off But by whom not by the civill Magistrate if the trouble be spirituall nor by the combined Eldership but by the particular Church it self which is troubled by them in case there be no remedy otherwise Secondly when you say that there must be no such speeches among us as I am of Paul I am of Apollos c. nor that some are Calvinians some Independenters some Brownists c. And again that we must all be Christs wee must all think and speak the same thing otherwise men are carnall c. with some other good words to like purpose we joyn heart and hand with you in all these things and are ready to contribute the best of our endeavours unto yours if yee will suffer us to make the Tabernacle of God amongst us according to this pattern which you shew unto us Such expressions I am of Paul I of Apollos c. together with the names of Calvinians Independents Brownists c. are as untuncable in our eares as in yours c. But First every man that saith I am of Paul or I am of Apollos is not to be taught by Thorns and Briars as Gedeon taught the men of Succoth to speak better by fining imprisoning unchurching or the like but by soundness of conviction and wholesomness of instruction from the Word of God The Germanâ— have a saying That etiam in lâ—trone puniendo potest peccari A man may sin in punishing him that most of all deserves it It is not enough for us to correspond with God in his ends but we must keep as close to him in his meanes also Secondly whereas you say we must all be Christs surely there is none of those Sects you speak of but are willing to joyn with you in being his and in being called by his Name rather then by any other We fear these unhappie sounds of Independents Brownists Anabaptists c. are more frequently made of your breath then of the breath of any other sort or sect of men amongst us Thirdly whereas you adde Neither hath the Church of God a custome to be contentious the Apostle indeed saith 1 Cor. 11.16 that the Churches of God have no such custome but he doth not say that these Churches of God had any custome to erect a Presbyterian throne or a combined eldership amongst them to keep them from contentions Fourthly whereas you tell us that neither permitteth the Apostle Schismes we tell you that we have already told you and that once and again both in what sense he permitteth them and in what not and have shewed you our concurrence with him in both Fifthly and lastly in that you tell us that we must not quit our mutuall meetings as others do and as must you say be done in a publique Toleration we neither well understand the sense of your words much less any purport in them to your pupose We do not know what quitting of meetings there is like to be more under a publique toleration then is for the present His 18. Reason Answered Your eighteenth Reason is so Atheologicall and unworthy your cause that the very naming of it might be Answer sufficient A toleration say you cannot but expose your Churches unto the calumnies of Papists who evermore object unto Protestants the innumerable number of these Sects whereas they pretend to be nothing but one Church Will you redeem your selfe out of the hand of Popish calumnies by symbolizing with them will you turne Turk that you may not suffer Turkish insolencies and thraldome Surely you forget your argument insisted upon in your eleventh Reason There you make symbolizing with Papists a reason against your Brethren and their Opinions why they should not be tolerated and here you make a defect or want in them of symbolizing with them a reason
the Apologists p. 4. that you saw them no wayes minded to submit themselves in these matters of conscience to the desires of the Parliament I verily beleeve that did their judgements depend upon their wills as it seems yours doe they would have been as freely willing to have submitted in all things unto the desires of the Paâ—liament as you are But 6. If our wills be weak Sect. 8. and thereby are hindred from seeing that goodly vision of Presbyterian Government in the practice of the Jewish Church which you see what doe you contribute or afford us towards the healing and strengthening of them Nay doe you not rather occasion that which is weak in this kind to be quite turned out of the way For when you tell us as you doe pag. 13. 1. that the adaequate end of your Presbyteriall government is the externall peace of the Church And 2. that the power thereof consists first in the creation suspension and deposition of Church-officers secondly in determining matters of Doctrine thirdly in making Ecclesiasticall lawes concerning things indifferent c. all which you tell us on a heap pag. 42. you both make us very loth and unwilling to find your government there and withall very confident that there it is not to be found For First Sect. 9. was the adaequate end of the government of that Church the externall peace of the Church Had it nothing in designe for the spirituall good for the edification of the members of it in knowledge faith and holinesse Was the power of the high Priest given him only to keep the Church in externall peace I thought that to provide for the externall peace of the Church had rather appertained to the civill Magistrate and government then to the Ecclesiastick and it is the Apostle himself that thus thoughteth me 1 Tim. 2.2 where he enjoyneth that supplications prayers c. be made for Kings and all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Secondly neither doe I find in the practise of that Church any power given to the combined rulers and governours thereof for the creation suspension deposition of Church-officers I read of the deposition of a Church-officer and no mean one neither by the Civill Magistrate 1. King 2.27 So Solomon cast out Abiathar from being Priest unto the Lord c. but of any such deposition by the combined rulers of that Church I remember not that I have read But 3. As for any power of determining matters of Doctrine Sect. 10. this is further out of my ken in the practice of that Church then any thing else I know not well what A. S. means by his phrase of Determining matters of Doctrine but in my notion and in the Grammaticall and proper sense of the word Determine the claim of such a power riseth up as a high partition-wall between me and his Government If by a power of determining matters of doctrine he meanes nothing else but a liberty or ability of discussing and arguing such matters and of recommending the issues and results of such discussions unto the Churches as consonant in their judgements to the truth with a proposall of their desires unto the Churches to consider well of them and to embrace them if they can so judge and conceive of them I have nothing to oppose against this power But if by his power to determine matters of Religion he means a power of concluding or defining what men shall be bound in conscience to receive and beleeve for truth and shal be look'd upon as sinning in case they doe it not whether they see sufficient ground for what is so concluded and obtruded upon them or not which I partly beleeve to be A. S. his sense I am sure is the proper sense of the word such a power is and I think ever will bee the first-born of the abhorrings of my soul I confesse I cannot be over-confident that A.S. intends the residence of such a power as this in his Presbyterian Assemblies partly because he speakes somewhat like a man in this behalfe elsewhere supposing it to be safe even for a few men to dissent from all the world Paget Defence of Church government pag. 29. in case they have very strong reasons for their dissent pag. 22. and requires no subjection in particular Congregations unto the judgment of Senats or Assemblies but according to Gods word pag. 28. I trust he means so apprehended by the congregation without this there is no subjection according to Gods word And again pag. 68. acknowledgeth it as an undoubted maxime that the church hath no absolute power in her judgments c. with many savoury expressions in this kind partly also because I find this indulgence generally subscribed with Presbyterian pens That the authority which Classes and Synods exercise is not absolute nor their Decrees held to be infallible but to be examined by the word of God and not to be received further then they do agree bâ—rewith And yet on the other hand I confesse that I cannot conceive or comprehend how A.S. his government can hold up her head like her selfe if this Iron-mace be taken out of her hand For my part if this one Article of a liberty to wave Presbyteriall Injunctions and Decisions in case of a non liquet from the word of God to him to whom they are tendered will bee but assented unto and candidly kept and performed it would be the best Mediator I know to reconcile my thoughts and judgement to it 4. Nor can I in the practice of the Jewish Church Sect. 13. find either vola or vestigium of a power granted unto the Rulers thereof to make Ecclesiasticall laws concerning things indifferent I rather find a prohibition served upon them for making any such laws Ye shall put nothing unto the word which I command you nor shall you take ought therefrom c. Deut. 4.2 So again Chap. 12.32 If A. S. can but produce one example of any such Law or Constitution made by them he shall be a good benefactor to the penury of my notions and in consideration thereof I will bestow upon him a dashing out of this peece of his charge 5. And lastly Sect. 12. in the practice of the Jewish Church the Prelaticall Schoole sees a vision or platforme of her government also And A.S. by your leave the High-Priest as well in his Authoritie as in his robes and holy accoutrements did farre more plausibly sympathize with Metropoliticall state and greatnesse then with Presbyteriall For my part I am not able to discern in all the practice of the Jewish Church from the one end of it unto the other any peece straine or veine of such a patterne as A. S. speaks of Surely the vision is so condition'd as not to be seen but upon Presbyterian ground The man did wisely in granting that he had no formall or expresse patterne for his government either
pride as that the patient Philosopher could justly reply yea saith he Thou dancest on my pride with thy greater pride How much of this is A. S. his I say not but sure it was the unseasonablest if not the most unsavoury book to multitudes of spirituall palates as ever wise man put forth Yet Iames Cranford is quoted by the Printer in the page before the Title as approving it and the book with a licentious approbation in these words These judicious Observations and Annotations c. as being at this time necessarie and seasonable for the vindication of all Protestant Churches defending the authority of Parliaments and Synods and prevention of division amongst our selves though I reverence the persons of the Apologists yet I approve to be impressed Mr. Cranford if the Printer hath dealt faithfully with you let me intreat you and the Lord help you to see your selfe ask your conscience ask your reason ask the book it selfe whether there be one true clause in all that you have said Are these Observations c. of A. S. judicious that are extra-judiciall and prejudiciall to the publick peace and order and ordinance for dispute prejudging and adjudging them who joyntly with the grave Assembly A. S. acknowledgeth the Arbitrator in the matters in question Are they at this time necessarie when the grave Commissioners of Scotland had with farre more prudence and solidity then A. S. said by way of reply so much to the Apologie Nemine reclamante none replying till A. S. was abroad Is there any need to bring a great printing Presse to squeese to death a poore worme troden on before Or to bring many leavers to break an egge that makes small resistance The truth is A. S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-axe knocking a man on the head to kill a flie lighting on his beard For though he saith He humbly submitteth to the Protestant Churches yet hee layes about him as if hee would knock them all down unto a submission to A.S. whosoever they be that will not stoop to his book For though he thinkes that all Protestant and Christian Churches are for him rather then for the five Ministers as he intimates in the beginning of his Epistle and therefore in all likelihood professeth a submission to them yet he will find many Churches in London he would wonder if we should name how many that will not submit to his book and yet come to the publick Ordinance doe not separate but are most willing to submit to the truth regularly discussed cleared and brought down to them Yet still James Cranford stands fixed in the licence page in black and not blush for asserting that A. S. his Observations c. are judicious and necessarie when as they are neither unlesse preposterousnesse abuse of good men and the disturbance of the people be judicious and necessarie For though the ensuing answer will prove them evill yet they will never be proved necessarie evils They are not so much as civilly necessary either necessitate praecepti as commanded by Parliament or Assembly or necessitate medii as usefull to compose but indispose the minds of men to embrace things prejudiced with the violence of private spirits Men will not be so easily whipt and compelled by one inferiour Again are the Observations seasonable which doe but interstrepere make a noyse whilst the Divines are disputing drawing the people together in heaps there taking up their parts to defend one against another and pre-ingage themselves before they come to heare what the Assembly will say For such a book cannot come forth but it makes a thousand dispute in a week every one then contending for his owne when it is so irregularly and illegally taken from him Are they for the vindication of all Protestant Churches when as in condemning the Apology they condemne many very many Churches in England many in Holland generally all in New-England notwithstanding some private Letters and Manuscripts sent over to which we shall answer afterwards Are they for the defence of the authoritie of Parliament in opposition to the Apology Doth the Apology touch one haire of the honourable heads of the Parliament Are not the five Ministers chidden some where in print R. C. for saying They allow more to the civill Magistrate then they thinke others principles can Doth not A. S. snib them tâ—o for going as he thinkes in their Apology to the civill Magistrate Pag. 4. Doth not A. S. in his Booke give a negative vote against the civill Magistrates directive power in matters of Religion Pag. 5. Let me say what I thinke seeng I think no harme viz. If the resolutions of the Divines be not digested by the reason and graces of the Houses of Parliament and so made as their owne sense for ought I know they will never be turned into a Statute If the Parliament have no directive power in matters of Religion or Ecclesiasticall under any notion then A. S. will condemn them for voting down the new Canons and prescribing the Oath or Covenant Are these Observations for the defence of the authoritie of Synods in opposition to the Apologie What Synods Scripture-Synods Where doth the Apologie whimper against them or doe you mean Classicall ones If so that 's the question And so you proclaim a defence of that which yet hath no existence The question is not resolved Lastly are these Observations for prevention of sad division amongst our selves Well Mr. Cranford you have by this endeavoured to set Divines together by the eares More Ecclesiastico your licentiating hath inabled men to give the second blow upon which the Common Law layeth the breach of the peace And notwithstanding you licence these Annotations yet you say you reverence the persons of the Apologists A pinne for such complements Love me and love the truth Let us measure your respects to them whilst the advantage of the higher ground whereon it stands be removed Away with your dare verba your froathy words This is the truth so much you respect them as A. S. respects them And so much have you spoken judiciously truly and seasonably as A.S. hath spoken and no more If he be cast you will be condemned Stand by Mr Cranford and heare A. S. tryed and in him your selfe THE EPISTLE A. S. To the right reverend Divines the Authors of the Apologetical Narration M. S. The Authors of the Apologeticall Narration desire more of your right though they have lesse of your reverence Had I written a booke with so much unreverence I would either have blotted out my title Right Reverend or else I should never have put in that Episcopall stile Most Reverend and Right Reverend seeing the Bishops are going For to stroke in the title and to strike in the book is but flattery if not grosse dissimulation Or as to say Art thou in health my brother and in the meane while to strike under the fift rib A. S. The high esteeme I have ever
had of your persons c. except onely in your particular opinions wherein the dissent from al Protestant yea all Christian Churches in the world M. S. Now let the Protestant Churches to whom you say you submit judge whether in these words there be not a notorious untruth For wherein doe the five Ministers and their Churches differ from many Churches in England diverse in Holland and generally all within the Patent of New-England if you account these places Protestant It may be you will object Mr. Parkers Letter and some Manuscripts from New-England and the Letter from Zeland To Mr. Parker his Letter we neede say little the Letter will answer for us though Mr. Parker little thought when he wrote it to finde an A. S. in England or that his brother Bayly would have printed his Letter seemingly to anticipate the disputation of the Assembly as if hee meant to beg the question though but with shewes and shadowes 1. Mr. Parker saith not one word for a Classicall Presbyterie the maine difference in hand but for a Congregationall that he would have in some things more managed by the Presbyteries of every Congregation without putting every thing to the vote of the people of the Congregation because some confusion hath followed upon it Doth in necessaries abuse take away the use There was confusion in the Church of Corinth Or is there any mention of this in the Apologie that all businesses of the Church must be put to the vote of the Congregation 2. That in that thing only there hath been an arguing on both sides M. Parker Mr. Noyse only are mentioned in the letter to be on the one side all the other Churches on the other against Mr. Parker and Mr. Noyse And 3ly Mr. Parker doth not say he won the day but as hee answered their Arguments as he saith so he confesseth they answered his Arguments and the thing is left to consideration Yea a godly man of New-England told me that the Churches of New-England did conceive that Mr. Parker had received full satisfaction from them in that point How ever it were all amounts but to a private letter subscribed by one man yet Imprimatur saith I. C. as if much to the purpose But tooke but a little afterward to our answer to a Letter from Zeland and you shall find the judgement of New-England in Letters newly come over To any private copies or Manuscripts from New-England one Mr. Rutherfâ—â—d hath answered as too much jumping with the Apologie and opposite to Classicall Presbytery Another if it had come forth would have beene keener against A. S. then the Apologie is So that if the Apologie doe differ from that it 's onely because the Apologie more agrees with the reformed Churches of this Island And for the third it hath nothing at all for Classicall Presbyterie but some things touching the ordering of Congregationall Presbyteries and all these are but private intelligencers and mutuall advisers not determination or natioâ—all No more then I suppose Mr. Cranford or A. S. will account the strange Queries on the Apologie and Scotch Commissioners Reply to bee the sense of New-England though made by one of that Countrey As for the letter of Zeland I cannot tell how to speak all the truth not offend some whom by my will I would not in the least displease Sure this will not offend to tell A. S. that in Holland if not in Zeland are some Churches that are fully with the five Ministers unto which some of them doe relate And to speake these things to the Letter it selfe being matters of fact I hope cannot justly offend 1. That that Letter came admirably punctuall upon the very nick after the first reply to the Apologie was out 2. That a Scottish Knight as it was informed nine or ten dayes before it was known abroad that the letter was to come said What if ye receive a Letter from Zeland disliking the Apologie or to that effect 3. That there is a Scottish Church of which one Spang is a very busie agent at Trevere hard by Middleborough whence the letter came 4. That there are in it many high passages seeming to some so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifies that of the Apology saying That the five Ministers c. give more to the Civil Magistrates then the principles of some Presbyterians do The said letter giving so too little to the Magistracy that the State of England I think cannot approve it here among us Verbum sapientisat est More may be thought upon evident grounds but not spoken here 5. Most happily by almost a miraculary providence in this nick of time came two letters from New-England to countermand Mr. Parkers Letter thence and the other from Zeland The first from Mr. Winthorp Governor of New England To his reverend and very good brother Mr. Hugh Peters Minister of the Gospel these deliver in London Our late Assembly of about fourty Elders met wherein the way of our Churches was approved and the Presbytery disallowed Winthorp Governor Decemb. 10. 1643. The second from another of New-England to another Minister in Old-England about the same time wherein we have these passages We have had saith he a Synod lately in our Colledge wherein sundry things were agreed on gravely as That the votes of the people are needfull in all admissions and excommunications at least in way of consent all yeelding to act with their consent 2. That those that are fit matter for a Church though they are not alwayes able to make large and particular relations of the work and doctrine of faith yet must not live in the commission of any known sin or the neglect of any known duty 3. That consociation of Churches in way of more generall meetings yearly and more private monethly or quarterly as Consultative Synods are very comfortable and necessary for the peace and good of the Churches 4. It was generally desired that the exercitium of the Churches power might onely be in the Eldership in each particular Church unlesse their sinnes be apparent in their worke 5. That Parishes Churches in old England could not be right without a renewed Covenant at least and the refusers excluded And were not New-England so farre the Churches of New-England would soon send a third punctually to approve the Apologie unless it bee for their merer compliance with them who notwithstanding have written against them We have been the longer in answer to this clause because wee finde A. S. to bee but the Text of other mens Commentary-discourses who say That the five Ministers will oppose all the visible Christian Churches in the world If they did it were not such a wonder as for one Wickliff in one age one Husse in another and Luther in a third to oppose all the world The truth is all Churches generally partly by tyranny and partly by Security are grown so corrupt that to apologize for a through reformation seemes to reprove all
and so all are ready to be offended that are lesse reformed We have heard of sad stories of late but true not teld in a corner of the lamentable over-spreading of Popery Atheisme drunkennesse in some kingdomes and adulterie formality c. in others If we reforme but in part by halves imitating Hen. 8. towards the Pope cutting off the head of Prelacie and sitting down in their Chaire similia non sunt contraria as Mr Davenport meeting with a Classicall Presbytery in his way to New-England said they were but thirteen Bishops for one the cry of the sin against our light and opportunity will call back our reeling Reformation like will hasten to like an unblest posture will leave us unhealed of our sins and our sins will make us become any thing Had not the Abbeys been pulled downe the Priories since had had opportunity to have risen Therefore Moses grinds the Idol to powder that it might be quite abolished I speak all this by way of supposition what shall upon full debate be found to be the Idol the nest of Popery the Chair of Prelacy the half-reformation Thus of your charging the five Ministers with dissenting from all Protestant Churches The expression that follows is a most grosse one That they differ from all Christian Churches I say grosse in two things 1. To call them Churches and Christian that are not Protestant and ergo are Popish now since the Councell of Trent wherein they gave Christ a bill of divorce as the learned assert anathematizing most of his main truths The Popish notwithstanding a few Saints in secret here and there are in a dependance on Antichrist 2. To charge it as a crime on the five Ministers to differ from them when as it is a sin and shame not to dissent from them If you diffent not from them you will never kindly dissent from the intituled Mo. R. A. BB. and Rt. Rev. BB. I observe that men in their Replies secretly afore they are aware run to the Popish markes of a Church viz. Visibility Succession Vniversalitie A. S. You as my selfe are but men yet ye know but in part and consequently may erre M. S. Yet this one man thinks he hath more knowledge to his part then the other five Ministers or else sure he would not so boldly condemne them of erring in a point which all the Assembly have not yet determined and so peremptorily acquit himself A. S. I thought this which is the question between you and all the Churches in the Christian world M. S. This untruth comes thick upon us that the Apol differs from all the Christian world It is intimated in the title It is expressed in the very beginning of the Epistle and here againe and once more in 3. pag. of the Epist and once in Consid 5. and how oft more in the book I doe not yet know till I find as I goe We have answered it once for all in the threshold of this Epistle A. S. I esteemed it no lesse a part of my dutie and Christian libertie as a man to oppose my selfe to five men then for five men to oppose five hundred thousand c. M. S. Hear ye O all ye men on earth that A. S. saith it is his Christian liberty to oppose the five Ministers but the whole scope of his booke is to rebuke them upon supposition that they doe oppose others whiles they tell them wherein they agree with them One instance follows at the heâ—l of his Christian liberty to which by and by Mean while Reader observe how this mans words do smell popishly though I think the man to be a real Protestant as if they came from Rome intimating as if visibilitie universalitie and so pluralitie of voyces of learned men might be unerring or very certain argument He speaks as if he had forgot or never heard of Wickliff many yeares after him Husse long after him Luther justly opposing the whole world as we all religiously maintain at this day And that one Paphâ—utius opposed a whole Councel mistaken in a point which is upon record of History to his great honour to this day A. S. Five men to oppose so many learned men so many holy Divines hundreds and thousands for one of you no way inferiour to the learnedest and best among you and not only to particular men and Divines but to so many yea and those the most pure and most reformed Churches of the world amongst whom there have been found so many thousands who have sealed Christs truth with the losse of their goods imprisonment of their bodies by exile of their persons yea with their dearest blood and lives who if they wrote not miracles yet God declared his almighty power in working miracles about them c. M. S. Here we have in forme and I will not say how much more a Popish argument I will not say a mopish argument I abhor flying on men in stead of matter To this I will speake and then they that will be deceived let them be deceived First you * Doctrines and practises prove men good not men doctrines and practises good dub such a number of men and people Saints most reformed learned no way inferiour to the learnedst and best among the five Ministers as if you knew perfectly all mens spirits mens lives in all places in the world and the five Ministers parts c. intus incute Then secondly as before you came what R. Reverend and most Reverend I desire to speake it no other way then with a Christian griefe and anger against such Sophismes so now you Cant to us as it were the Popish Prelaticall Letanie and Te Deum As if by the temptations and fastings by the passions by the deaths and burialls of suffering Christians The noble army of Martyrs praising the holy Church throughout all the world acknowledging you would conjure us to yeeld any thing upon pluralitie of voyces or topick arguments that may are turned every way and used by all sorts good and bad for their owne waies 1. Men living in a notorious sinne of grosse usury unjust enclosures monopolizing c. First They will tell you of severall Ministers c. very holy men and then secondly They will tell you that those Ministers doe approve of those things 2. The Malignants now cry that so many good Lords so many Parliament men most of two Kingdomes are for the King Ergo the King doth well beleeve it who so will The Papists proclaime that they have pluralitie of voyces Martyrs c. Ergo they are in the right So the Prelacie tell us that of Bishops were many Martyrs to which Smectymnuus answers by them was composed the Liturgie and they have a thousand for one of them so they had formerly and most of the learned Doctors c. Scholars Divines and Lawyers were for them therefore they were in the right Then some of our respected brethren of the reputed godly Non-Conformists come in a title
up Josh 22.11 Negatively the outward act either of speaking such evill opinions or doing such evill facts may be restrained and yet no violence done to the conscience to act contrary to it's inward dictates and perswasion being not yet convinced they are evill This being only a suspension and intermission of the outward man from acting towards others not a coaction or subversion of the inward acts of judgement and understanding in himself And so Jewes or c. may be permitted among Christians so as they do not manifest their errors and defiance against the fundamentall truths that so they may hear and believe and be converted or how else shall they be won to the truth and the promise of God fulfilled touching their call 2. The spreading and practising of opinions that apparently tend to Libertine-licencious ungodliness ought not quietly to be permitted They cannot be suffered but with sinne and reproof from Christ to the sufferers of them Rev. 2. v. 14. to v. 21. where two Churches viz. Pergamos and Thyatirâ— are charged with sinne and reproved by Christ for having among them and suffering Balaamiues Nicolaitans and Jezabellians to vent such opinions viz. 1. That under pretence of liberty and charity wives were to be common 2. Vnder pretence of avoiding scandals and perils it was lawfull for Christians to be present at the the sacred things Idolatries and joyiall banquettings of Pagans Vâ—de Port. in 2 Revel as things indifferent These in the Churches ought to have been excommunicated if refractory out of the Churches These not of any Church if they will not be convinced by conference with the Churches ought to be restrained from their evill practises by the Magistrate according to the examples of the pious Kings reforming abuses upon the ground of Moses penning of politiqâ—e laws to punish them that could not be accounted meet members of a Church for their lewd lives 3. For those opinions that are neither against fundamentals nor tend to licenciousness but stâ—ive to beat out truths thereby to creep closer to the rule to walk more evenly in the path both of Doctrine and Discipline and will in both by a strict bond amongst themselves walk as exactly as by any power Ecclesiastical without them set above them a their own wilâ— shall be in stead of others lawes I say such opinions are not to be restrained either from all divulging or practising that wee can finde by any Scripture We wave the question now Which is the only true form of Discipline and put the case in generall What opinions and practices that are conscienciously taken up ought to be left unrestrained To which our answer is that this sort here are they or else how shall there be a trying all things a trying of the spirits a discovery of new light and present truths prophesied to be revealed in their severall periods of times If any be contrary-minded we shall be glad to hear their grounds till they produce those and make them clear to the Churches wee ask our due a quiet permission to injoy that liberty which Christ hath bought and the Gospel brought and not to be jeered by any A. S. as here who tells the five Ministers that to live quietly without troubling the State they may have it appearingly unsought Let the world judge whether here be not a saucy jeer both in matter and form of speech I would A. S. had made use of that toleration and then he had not so intolerably troubled a Kingdome Or else if he had no stomack at first to be quiet if for some days he had but had somewhat appearingly allowed him to bite upon somewhat appearingly to quench his thirst he would have had a stomack rather to eat and drink then bite and jeere He is so passionate that hee doth not remember what he says in one page so as it may be reconciled to another Here he saith the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God you may perceive his meaning by reading his Interrogatory yet in his Annotation upon the inscript of the Apologie pag. 5. He supposeth that the Parliament should arrogate if it should take upon it any directive power in matters of Religion If he hath any Scholastick quillet to reconcile this within himself it is more then the common people and weak brethren he writes to know of M. S. Note that A. S. bath one Consideration more But were it not that it it did answer it self I should have been too weary of his former inconsiderate considerations to have staid here being eager to come to his book 1. He saith that they ayme at separation he meanes the five Ministers though they disclaime it in their Apologie unlesse to separate as our brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction should tolerate some small pretended defects they are but pretended yet he saith not approved by those from whom they desire to separate 2. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme defects yet those defects saith he are but pretended to be in it 3. Hee thinkes that the five Ministers should doe better to stay in the Church to reforme abuses then by separation to let the Church perish in abuses Now he supposeth destroying abuses and would have the five Ministers stay to helpe reforme yet he is angry with their Apologie that doth but sigh forth an intimation of neede of reformation And so angry that he would as ye heard in his second consideration it s so long since that he hath forgotten it have the five Ministers quit the Assembly A. S. his Annotations upon the inscription of the Apologists Narration M.S. If I thought A.S. had any skill in Physick I would aske him whether by Annotations he meanes as the Physitians speake Annotationes incompressas becticarum febrium indicia violent annotations are sigâ—es of an hectick feaver in his vitall parts A. S. All Apologies suppose some accusation which here appeares none M. S. Not to meddle with your Engâ—ish which is scarse grammaticall you are intreated to speake true Doth not the Apologie begin and end with sad complaints Remember our answer to your fourth Consideration A. S. If intended for an Answer to that which hath been written against your opinions it comes very short weake and slender M. S. Why then would you fight with a fly The Mouse told the Elephant that he would never get honour in killing a silly Mouse Why did you bestow so much Oratorie and Logicke to clap it and fisticuffe it A. S. Neither is it a meere Apologeticall Narration but also a grievous accusation against all our Churches as destitute of the power of godlinesse M. S. This indeede is a false accusation as we have cleered it in our Answer to your fiâ—t Consideration A. S. The Apologie saith humbly submitted c. So humbly submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament as if they submit not themselves to your
without the Church If it be replied No because that Church did implicitly consent in yeelding their Elders for members of that Presbytery We reply That if either your publick Law constrains that Church upon penalty Invitum dicitur quod quis vel per ignorantiam admittit Arist Eth. l. 3. c. 1. Kecker Praecog Syst Eth. against their light to suffer their Elders to fit in the Classicall Presbytery then that Church doth not freely consent or if that Church without constraint doth consent for want of light as it must be supposed if a Classis upon debate be found to be besides the word this ignorant act of that Church is an unwilling or involuntary act and so no free consent And so the Classis according to A. S. his distinction is like a Magistrate which is a Bishop without and about that Church But good A. S. we know it is an easie matter to distinguish the Magistrate into such an executive coercitive externall power as you speake of but we would fain see you demonstrate him into it and then A. S. and M. S. should be no more two but one S. We know not how to transform distinctions into demonstrations His second Distinction is of the Subject of this power the Magistrate whom he makes two-fold truly Christian and not truly Christian But 1. I would faine know by what Touchstone A. S. will try his gold in this case I mean judge of the truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate It appeares from page 50. of his discourse that he hath no mind to grant his truth of Christianity unto a Magistrate that is either Lutheran Anabaptist Socinian or Papist Any of these misprisions in Christianity are as sufficient in A. S. his judgement as in ours to keep the sword of that power we speake of out of the Magistrates hand And as for a Magistrate whose judgement shall be infected perfected reason and truth would say with Apologisme or the great hatred of his soule independencie I make no question but he in the Comique terme should bee exclusissimus from this capacitie or right above all the rest But let us goe on with the man in the termes of his own addresse to the Apologists Sect. 13. in the same place If he saith that by a Magistrate truly Christian he understand an orthodox Magistrate what if he had one or two errors would he yet permit him to be orthodox and truly Christian or not Till A. S. here specifies Seermones generales non movent his own shall make use of my reason to beleeve that by a Magistrate truly Christian A. S. onely mean a Magistrate who in his judgement is Presbyteriall and that this qualification of Presbyterialisme and truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate are against all contradictions and counter-poysings whatsoever termini aequipollentes in his Logique And if this be his meaning the king to be sure hath none of his power as yet in actu exercito and jure in re nor hath the Parliament at least for ought A. S. or the kingdom knoweth any whit more of it then the King And whatsoever it hath done hitherto by any executive coercive externall power about the Church or Church-affairs in which kinde it hath done very much depends as touching the validity and justifiableness of it upon this supposition that it Presbyterializeth Whence it followeth that he that cannot or doth not believe that the Parliament is of a Classique inclination cannot with the leave of A. S. his distinction judge them to have done lawfully or warrantably any thing that they have done hitherto about or for the Church The truth is that till A. S. will please to define what manner of Magistrate hee must be that shall pass the test of his distinction for truly Christian wee are constrained to suspend our bounty in conferring that executive coercive externall power about the Church upon any man Nor do I make much question but that wee shall have twenty Distinctions more before we shall obtain that Definition But of all the three distinctions here upon the stage Sect. 14. the best dancer is yet behind This Power or Authority saith he belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re it 's very long me thinks ere wee hear to whom it belongs to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato jure in rem only untill they become truly Christian 1. Though I have many times heard of the distinction in actu exercito in actu signato yet I never heard of any thing belonging to a person in actu exercito but that belonged to him and that per prius in actu signato Hee to whom the principle or power of acting doth not belong cannot stand ingaged for the exercise or acting of such a power 2. My soul longs for the Summer fruit of a good reason from A. S. Sect. 15. why any power about the Church and for the Church should not belong actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re and with as many other proper unproper necessary unnecessary sober ridiculous expressions as he pleaseth as well to a Magistrate not yet truly Christian as to him that is such Hath not an Heathen or Heterodox Magistrate a lawfulness of power to do presently this day this hour to morrow and so forth toties quoties as much good to and for the Church or Churches of Christ within his jurisdiction or dominion as he could have if he were truly Christian Do acts of justice bounty grace towards the Churches of Christ any whit more defile a Magistrate how far from truly Christian soever then acts of the same nature performed unto his other subjects The Kings and those that were in authority in Pauls dayes were generally all the kings without exception far from being truly Christian and yet was it not lawfull for them to interpose with their Authority or Power that the Churches of Christ in their dominions might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty If not then was that exhortation of his 1 Tim. 2.2 to be laid up in Lavender for some hundreds of yeers after it was given or else the benefit and blessing the obtaining whereof by prayer is made the ground of the exhortation must have been made over in the intentions of those that had so prayed unto their posterities after many generations A. S. may choose which of the two hee will believe for my part I shall not be his corrivall in either Yee have heard A. S. his Distinctions for a coercive power about the Church in a Civill Magistrate Demonstrationes autem ubi But where are his proofs Quas non invenio usquam esse puto nusquam What I finde not any where I believe to be no where I have searched Sect. 16. and that somewhat narrowly throughout the whole volume of his Discourse to finde something that with any indulgence of imagination might be
you Brethren in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ that yee withdraw your selves from every brother that walketh inordinately c. and vers 14. If any man obey not this our saying in this letter note him and have no company with him that he may be ashamed Clearly implying that to with-draw communion and to deny Christian fellowship unto Christians walking inordinately is both a means of Divine institution and otherwise proper and commodious in it self to reclaim and bring them to Repentance There is the same reason of Churches in this behalf which there is of persons Churches being nothing else but persons embodied Secondly suppose there were no such sufficient or satisfactory remedy for the inconvenience mentioned in the way of the Apologists as A.S. conceives to be in his which yet there is as hath in part already and will afterwards further appear yet Lawyers have a saying that a mischief is better then an inconvenience A man had better run the hazard of a greater loss then expose himself to a daily wasting and consuming of his estate A man had better be wet through and through with a soaking showre once a yeer then be exposed in his house to continuall droppings all the yeer long The Delinquencie of whole Churches such I mean as is matter of publique scandall or offence to their neighbour Churches is not an every dayes case no more in the way of Congregationall men of Presbyteriall Government you acknowledge the rarity of it in your Government and we affirm it in ours Now then much better it is to want a remedy against such an evill which possibly may not fall out within an age though it be greater when it doth fall then it is to expose our selves to continuall droppings I mean to those daily inconveniences which wee lately shewed to be Incident to the Classique Government Thirdly they that implead the Congregationall way for being defective as touching the matter in hand seem to suppose that God hath â—ut a sufficiency of power inâ—o the hands of men to remedy all defects errours and miscarriagâ—s of men whatsoever Elâ—â— why should it be made matter of so deep a charge and challenge against the way of tâ—e Apologistâ— that it affords not a sufficient and satisfactory remedy either to prevent or heal all possible miscarriages in all churches I would willingly know in case your Church transcendent your supreme Session of Presbyters should miscarry and in your Doctrinall determinations give us bay stubble and wood in stead of silver gold and precious stones a misprision you know wel-neer as incident to such Assemblies yea and to those that are more generall and oecumeniall then so as obstinacy in errour is to particular Congregations what remedy the poor Saints and Churches of God under you have or can expect against such a mischiefe or what remedy you now have in the way of your government for the recovering of your selves out of such a snare more then what the Congregationall way affordeth for the reclaiming of particular Churches Nay the truth is your Government in such a case is at a greater loss in respect of any probable or hopefull remedy against such an evill which yet is an evill of a most dangerous consequence then the other way of Government is for the reduction of particular Churches That hath the remedy of God as hath been shewed though not the remedy of men and yet that remedy of God which it hath in appliable by men and those known who they are viz. the Churches of Christ neer adjoyning but if your great Ecclesiastique body be tainted or infected though never so dangerously Corpora morbis majora patent Sen. God must have mercy on you and that in a way somewhat at least more then ordinary if ever you be healed For that Directive power in matters of Religion which had you left it in other mens hands might in this case through the blessing of God have healed you being now only in your own hath not only occasioned that evill disease that is upon you but also leaves you helpless and cureless by other men A. S. makes the greatest part of his arguments against that way of Government which hee opposeth of what iffs I mean of loose and impertinent suppositions and cases that are not like to fall out till ursa major and ursa minor meet unto which kind of arguments every whit as much as enough hath been answered already but he shall shew himself a soveraign Benefactour indeed to the Presbyterian cause if he can find out a remedy satisfactory and sufficient against that sore evill we speak of incident to his Government in the case mentioned which is a case both of a far worse consequence then the obstinacy of a particular Church in some error and I fear of a far more frequent occurrence then the world is willing to take notice of Fourthly let us ponder a little how sufficient and satisfactorie that remedie against the evill now in consideration is which the Classique politie under the protection of A. S. his pen so much glorieth in let us compare the two remedies of the two corriving polities together as A. S. hath done after this manner But the Presbyteriall Government saith he p. 39. is subject to none of these inconveniences For the collective or combined eldership having an Authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundrie matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voyces without any schisme or separation Not to be troublesome to the man about his Grammaticals wherein hi pen slips oftner then Priscian will tolerate in such a piece because in these he opposeth nothing but a mans conceit either of overmuch scholarship or overmuch care in him Here is a remedie indeed against some inconveniences but whether the inconveniences be not much better then the remedie adhuc sub Judice lis est But what are the inconveniences The first is that Churches being equall in authoritie one cannot binde another to give any account in case of offence given Well what is the remedie for this in Classique constitution The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves c. What is another inconvenience In case other churches were offended in the proceedings of a particular church they could not judge in it for then they should be both judge and partie in one cause c. Well what is the remedie in Presbyterian politie The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churchches c. What is a third inconvenience That Congregationall Government giveth no more power or authoritie to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker yea to the Hangman over a thousand c. What is the Presbyterian remedie for this The combined Eldership having an Authoritative power c.
The combined Eldership with their Authoritative power together with a Law or Covenant whereby all men and Churches under them are bound to submit unto them are as bars of iron and gates of brasse to keep out al those inconveniences irregularities defilements pollutions out of the Presbyterian Temple whereunto it seems the Congregationall temple for want of such stoure and tight provisions lies open But First what if your combined Eldership hath neither footing nor foundation in the Word of God It is not the serviceablenesse of it against a thousand such inconveniences as were mentioned that will justifie it Sauls offering sacrifice was a means to prevent the scattering of the people from him yet Samuel told him that he had done foolishly in it and it cost him his Kingdom 1 Sam. 13.9.13.14 So the putting forth of Vzzâ—h's hand to stay the Ark was a meanes to keepe it from being shaken but yet the doing of it cost him his life Peters valour and zeale in drawing his sword and laying about him was a likely meanes of rescuing his Master but the Lord Christ preferred the imminent danger of his life before such a rescue and check'd the sword that was drawne for him againe into the sheath That Law and constitution in the Papacie whereby all men all Churches thereof are bound to submit their judgements in matters of Faith to the decision of the Papall Chair is as soveraigne a remedie against all those inconveniences named as that for which Classique Authoritie is so much magnified by you and yet it is never the lesse abominable in the eyes both of God and men The Question is not which Government will serve most turnes but which is most agreeable to the will and Word of God If that of Presbyterie be defective this way as there is extreame cause to feare it is this defect cannot be recompenced or redeemed by any other commendation whatsoever Secondly neither can we with any tolerable satisfaction informe our selves out of all your discourse either what you meane by that Authoritative power which you claime to your combined Eldership nor yet how or by what or whose Authoritie they come to be invested with it As for the power sometimes you deny it to be Magisteriall or such which may not lawfully be declin'd when a man cannot submit unto it without disobedience to God otherwise you make it so irrefragably sacred as if it were no lesser sin then perjurie it selfe to detract it Again for the investiture of your Eldership with this power whether they arrogate it unto themselves and are their own carvers or whether the Civill State and Parliamentarie Law or whether the free and joynt consent of those over whom this power is exercised do conferre and derive it upon them you informe us not but count an ignoramus better then a verdict But till you do resolve us by what Authoritie or power this Authoritative power comes into the hand of your combined Eldership we shall thinke it safer to stand to the hazard and dammage of all the inconveniences spoken of then to subject to it Thirdly if the Law of the State be the first and most considerable band or tye upon men to submit unto the power of your combined Eddership as you seeme here to imply in saying that all men all Churches thereof are bound by Law c. then 1. you must acknowledge that the root and base of your Government is potestas secularis secular authoritie and then how is it Ecclesiastick or spirituall A man may as well bring a clean thing out of an unclean in Jobs expression as make a spirituall extraction out of a secular root Secondly it will rest upon you to prove that the Civill State hath a power to forme and fashion the government of the Churches of Christ Yea thirdly and lastly it will be demonstratively proved against you that you resolve the government of the Churches of Christ in the last resolution of it into the humors wills and pleasures of the world yea of the vilest and most unworthy of men But Fourthly and lastly the Authoritative power of your combined Eldership being granted unto you we doe not see how the inconveniences you find in the Congregationall way will bee much better solv'd in yours For first what if a particular Congregation under the jurisdiction of your Eldership reflecting upon the Oath or Covenant it hath taken for subjection thereunto as likewise upon all other engagements that way as unlawfull shall peremptorily refuse to stand to the awards or determinations of it what will you do in this case How will your combined Eldership remedy this inconvenience What will you excommunicate this Church The Apologists in their way do little lesse and that by a power farre lesse questionable then yours nay in your interpretation they doe every whit as much Or will you deliver them over Brachio secularie to be hamper'd and taught better then it seems you can teach them by prisons fines banishment c. O A. S. remember you tar'd the Apologists for comporting in a very small matter in comparison with the Arminians in case it had been true and will you comply with the Papists in a matter of this high nature Churches had need take heed how they chuse men for their Guardians that will so dispose of them if they please them not Besides you know what was said in the second chapter touching the power of the Magistrate in this case And what if in the Session of your combined Eldership there be no such thing as plurality of votes concerning excommunication of such a Church as it is very possible that in such a meeting the truth may find just as many friends as error hath and no more is not the remedy you spake of now in the dâ—st Again secondly to touch upon the second inconvenience mentioned when your combined Eldership proceeds against a particular Church amongst you upon offence taken is not this Eldership as well Party as Judâ—â— If you think you have every whit the better of it because your Eldership though it be both Party and Judge yet hath an authoritative power over those whom it judgeth I answer first that as our Saviour told Pilate He could have no power against him except it were given him from above no more can your Edership have over those whom it judgeth in this case Now how uncertain and faint the probabilities are that they have any power over them given them from above hath been formerly shewed at large And if that power which your Eldership claimeth and exerciseth over the Church arraigned be not from above then the Apologists remedy is farre better and safer then yours Secondly to hold and maintain that all those that have an Authoritative power over men may lawfully by vertue of such power be both parties and Judges is to exalt all manner of tyranny violence and oppression by a Law Upon such a supposition men invested with authority and power
eating and drinking are not to be tolerated Apagecruentas nugas Whereas you adde that a Toleration of Sects cannot but daily beget new Schismes and divisions We answer first that this allegation we have answered already once and againe yet secondly we adde that many inconveniences sicknesses diseases come by eating and drinking yet are these to be tolerated in the world Thirdly we plead for no toleration of any Sect nor of any thing so called but which may stand with the utmost that either A. S. with his pen or his whole partie with theirs can doe against them to suppresse them Fourthly we havâ—â—â—â—â—erly prov'd that Apologisme is neither Sect nor Schisme no more then A. Ssisme is Fifthly and lastly whereas you say That a Toleration of Sects cannot but daily beget new Schismes c. We answer first that Gods toleration or long-suffering towards sinners doth not onely lead all sinners to repentance but also bring many thereunto And why should not mans toleration expect an effect answerable hereunto Secondly the disciples in the ship were as much afraid that their dear Lord nd Master had been a foule spirit and would have sunk them in the Sea as A. S. is afraid of a Toleration that it must needs beget new Schismes and divisions daily But as the feared Destroyer proved the experienced preserver of that ship and men so may A. S. his feared propagator of Schismes and Divisions bee found an experienced destroyer and dissolver of them That means of all other which hath God in it is likest to doe the deed And God we know was neither in the tempest nor in the earthquake nor in the fire but in the still voice His to Reason answered His tenth reason being help'd riseth up in this forme If there was a greater difference amongst the members of the Church of Corinth in the time of S. Paul and yet they communicated together and that by the Apostles exhortation then ought not the Apologists to be tolerated But true is the former therefore the latter also We answer first that the fabrick of your Argument is built upon a false foundation or supposition viz. that the reason why the Apologists refuse communion with you you mean I suppose in your sacramentall actions is because of the latitude weight or degree of the differences in iudgment between you and them whereas the reason of their refusall in this kinde is the nature or particularity of the difference together with your practice depending upon your opinion in opposition unto theirs not the height weight or importance of either A difference in judgement about the lawfulness of stinted forms of prayer is nothing so materiall or weighty as a difference about the nature of Faith Justification c. yet the lighter difference in this case makes persons so differing uncapable of joyning together in Communion in the use of such prayers whereas the greater difference would not Secondly if there were so many and great differences amongst the members of the Church of Corinth as you speak of and yet Paul no wayes perswaded or incouraged the predominant or major party amongst them either to cast out cut off or suppress the underling parties but exhorted them unto mutuall communion c. Why do not you content your self with the line of the same process and in stead of disgracing quashing crushing trampling on only exhort the Sects and Schismes amongst you unto mutuall communion and to the forbearance of Sects and Divisions a practice which you do well to take notice of in the Apostle but do ill to think that your own of club-law is better Thirdly and lastly nor do wee know any ground or good bottome you have for your assumption wherein you affirm that there was greater difference amongst the members of the Church of Corinth then is between the Apologists and you Old Ipse dixit is made to carry this burthen alone Your eleventh Reason is very corpulent but less active His 11. Reason answered the chief ingredients of it being Abbots and Priors Convents and Monasteries amongst the Papists St Francis St Dominick and the Donatists with whose opinion and practice you say the opinion of your Brethren too much symbolizeth We answer first that Theologia symbolica non est argumeâ—tativa Angels and Devils agree in something yet this agreement is not impeachment Qui ut uni haresi suae adâ—tum atâ—faceret cunctarum haeres 〈◊〉 sphâ—mias â—â—â—ctabotur Vincent Lyr. cap. 16. either to the holiness or happiness of the Angels A. S. himself symbolizeth with Nestorius the Heretique in one property of whom Vincentius Lyrinensis reporteth that to make way for his own heresie or opinion hee fell heavie upon all heresies beside Secondly whereas he affirmeth that the opinion of his Brethren is not unlike to the Convents and Monasteries amongst the Papists certainly the unlikeness between them is for greater then that between an Apple and an Oister We cannot but wonder how or in what respect the man should conceive that an inward spirituall and notionall thing as an opinion is should be like a great building made of lime and stone or a pack of die fellows in a fat Fraternity Thirdly whereas hee insinuates a hatefull similitude between his Brethren and the Donatists who hee tels us separated themselves from other Churches under pretext that they were not so holy as their own We answer first that this insinuation will not so much as in shew touch all the Apologists however because some of them we believe have no Churches of their own and therefore they cannot pretend more holiness in them then in others Secondly that neither in substance or truth doth it touch any of them or their opinion For first they do not separate from other Churches but only in such opinions and practices wherein they cannot get leave of their consciences to joyn with amongst their Churches themselves one from another one dissenting from another not only in many opinions but in some materiall practices as before was touch'd and that from A. S. his own pen no wayes partiall you may think in such a case Secondly we would know whether A. S. himself and his party doth not as much symbolize with the Donatists in that criticall property or practice we speak of as the Apologists For under what pretext do they separate from the Church of Rome and from Episcopall Churches but only this that they think not their Churches to be as holy as their own If they separate from them upon any other grounds it were not much materiall though they held communion with them still Yea thirdly if they do not think their Presbyteriall Churches more holy then the Congregationall they are far more guilty of Schisme and Separation then their Brethren here spoken of For then they are at liberty in point of conscience to come over and joyn with them when as the other are in bands and fetters of conscience and cannot pass unto them Their Brethren would
gladly come over unto them but cannot they can come over unto these but will not It is the will not the act that makes Schisme and Separation Fourthly we do not see as deep as you have laid the charge wherein the Apologists do any whit more symbolize with Convents Monasteries or Orders amongst the Papists then you and your friends You tell them that all their Churches believe one Doctrine together with you and that every one of these Churches hath one Minister as the Popish Convents a particular Abbot or Prior. Wee pray you do not all your Churches believe one Doctrine together and hath not every one of your Churches one Minister Wherein then lies the difference between you and them or wherein do they symbolize more with Convents or Monasteries then your self Nay fifthly and lastly as if you had quite forgotten your rhomb you tacitely couple your self with those Popish Convents Monasteries and Orders in one ignoble consideration from which you acquit your Brethren They only differ say you to them in this that yee have no Generall or any thing answerable thereunto to keep you in unity and conformity plainly implying that your Presbyterians have viz. their soveraign Judicatory So that if this your reason should but take place and be held valid it is your Presbyterian party not the party Apologizing that ought to suffer the non-toleration you speak of it being they not these that are the great symbolizers with St Francis and St Dominick To your twelfth Reason His 12. Reason answered we have given answer upon answer formerly as first where we considered of the examples of the Kings of Judah and shewed how little they contribute to the claim of coercive power in the Magistrate to take away Heresies Schismes Superstitions c. Secondly where we argued against such a power by severall demonstrations Thirdly where we gave an account also how Toleration is no way either to Schisme Heresie c. So that that there is not one apex or icta of this Reason remaining unanswered The Logico-Divinity of your thirteenth Reason His 13. Reason Answered consisteth in this Enthymeme If we have but one God one Christ and one Lord one Spirit one Faith one Baptisme whereby we enter into the Church and are one Body we ought to have one Communion whereby to be spiritually fed and one Discipline to be ruled by and if so then ought not the Apologists to be tolerated We answer that neither doth your inference or conclusion here at all follow from your premisses We have all you speak of one one and one and in regard of that multiplied unitie we ought as you say to have one Communion and one Discipline But first not necessarily that Communion or that Discipline which are of Classique inspiration no more then those which are either of Papall or Episcopall recommendation because though wee judge these two latter spirits more sphalmaticall erroneous and dangerous then the first yet wee cannot think that either the Pope or Bishops or both together have so ingrossed the spirit of erreour and fallibility but that they have left of that anointing more then enough to initiate all other Orders Societies and Professions of men in the world Secondly though wee ought to have one Communion and Discipline yet ought wee to be led into this unity by the hand of an Angel of light not to be frighted into it by an evill angel of fear and terrour Thirdly that duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline amongst them is no dispensation unto any party or number of them to smite their Brethren with the fist of uncharitableness or to dismount them from their ministeriall standings in the Church because they will not or rather cannot knit and joyn in the same Communion and Discipline with them Nay fourthly that very tye of duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one and the same Communion and Discipline amongst them carries this ingagement upon them all along with it to shew all love to use all manner of gentleness and long suffering towards those that are contrary minded to them either in the one or in the other since love is not only a sodering and uniting affection but further commends the person in whom it is found as one to whom God hath appeared and who hath been taught by him Therefore fifthly and lastly to make the ingagement that lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline a ground and reason why such as differ from others about these should be evill intreated suppressed kept under hatches or the like is as if a man should plead that naturall affection which a parent ows unto his children for a ground and motive why he should sharply scourge them when they are sick and weak His fourteenth Reason is of an unknown strength at least to me If I were a Magistrate His 14. Reason answered I should never the more know how to prepare to battell against the Apologists or any other godly person for the sound of this trumpet Surely of all the rest this Reason will never be accessary to the undoing of these men However let a poor man be heard in his cause The Reason then with all the help it is capable of riseth up but thus If Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species then the Churches must be different in their species also But the consequent is false since there is but one Church Ergo Apologisme is intolerable They that can gather this conclusion out of the premisses may very well hope to gather Grapes of Thorns and Figs of Thistles The consequent in this argument which the Disputer saith is false is this Churches must be different in their species If the meaning of this consequent be that there is an absolute necessity that Churches should differ specie one from another the Disputant is in the truth in saying the consequent is false Or if the meaning be that Churches ought to differ specie one from another the same verdict may still pass upon it But upon that supposition which is made in the Antecedent of this argument viz. that these Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species the consequent is not only true but necessarily true and that upon the Disputants own ground which is that all collective bodies that are governed are differenced specie by their different governments But be the Consequent or be the Antecedent or be the Consequence be any thing be nothing or be every thing in the premisses either true or false why shoâ—â—d not the Apologists be tolerated notwithstanding Be the Sunne in Aries or be it in Taurus or be it in Capricorn why should not A. S. be tolerated to write more books for the cause Presbyterian notwithstanding I heare that upon the applause and approbation of this by his party hee hath since put forth his hand to another Acts. 12.2 3. as Herod seeing
You know who the Housholder is that gave this order laid this restraint upon his servants otherwise the 37. verse will informe you And who doe you think should be meant by the tares You will not say the good sons of the Church at least so acknowledged by their Mother You cannot say with reason the loose vicious c. morally disordered sons of the Church because these were sown in the field before the Housholder sew that good seed therein spoken of v. 24. and 38. whereas the tares which must be let grow to harvest are expresly said to have been sown after v. 25. And besides such wicked and vicious persons as these at least as the danger and degree of their wickednesse may be ought to be gathered out of the State and then they cannot grow in the field till harvest by the hand of the civill Magistrate Therefore thirdly and lastly you must by the tares of necessity understand such in the Church as you call Sectaries Schismaticks Heretickes such as corrupt the purity of the doctrine of the Gospel by erroneous and false opinions or at least are look'd upon by the greater part of the respective Churches of Christ as such Which yet appears further by the reason which the Housholder renders unto his servants why he would not have them pluck'd up but grow untill the harvest lest saith he whilest yee goe about to gather the tares yee pluck up the wheat also There is no danger of hurting or plucking up the wheat i. the children of the Kingdome v. 38. by punishing civill or morall misdemeanours of men but if Magistrates or others ' shall be busie about plucking up Sectaries Heretiques c. they will be in continuall danger of plucking up the wheat First because many truly pious and conscientious men children of the Kingdome may soon be drawne in to some unwarrantable Sect and opinion And secondly such opinions as are sentenced by the generality or major part of a Church as erroneous or hereticall and so expose those that hold them to the reprochfull names of Sectaries Schismatiques Heretiques very often fall out to be the sacred truths of God and the persons holding them forth unto the world the best and faithfullest of his servants His 16. Reason answered For your sixteenth reason it concerneth others more then the Apologists to answer the frame of it being an indignabund relation whether true or no caveat lector of what hard measure the New-Englanders offered to some that desired to sit downe amongst them because they differed a little from them in point of discipline The men here charged are of age to speak for themselves and besides want no abilities otherwise I make no question but if they had but the correcting of A. S. his Relation they would be able to make more reason and equity of it then without some correction or other I am able to doe But to leave our brethren in New-England to their own Apologie I would fain know of A. S. what he means to do with his story or how he intends to bring it under contribution to his cause For first he doth not onely not approve of those proceedings which he relateth but is very passionate and intemperate in the very relation Delicti fies idem reprehensor Author Is the man so full of the spirit of reprehension against such practises and yet so full of the spirit of imitation also Or what Is his desire so great to appropriate or ingrosse the power and practice of persecuting for difference in religion to himselfe and his own party that he is not able patiently to beare the sight of either in others If your brethren in New-England stumbled at the stone you speak of persecuted as you say those that were approved by themselves both for their life and doctrine meerly because they differed a little from them in point of discipline you have a faire warning take heed that you doe not stumble at the same stone also They it's like justified themselves in themselves in those proceedings though they did not so in the sight of God but if you having condemned them in what they did shall neverthelesse run the same course you wil be both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both self-condemned and God-condemned also and so have no cloak nor shelter for your sin But you think it no wayes reasonable that the Apologists being of the same profession as you speak should be suiters for a toleration in Old-England We answer first if you speak with reference to those proceedings immediatly before reported by you you are more of the same profession with them then your brethren the Apologists These doe not professe persecution meerly for a little difference in point of Discipline the world knowes who they are that do little lesse Secondly what though men of the same profession with them miscarried for want of such light as should have directed them in a better way must this be a band of conscience upon them to bow down their backes without any more adoe and to suffer Presbyterian greatnesse to go over them as the stones in the street Nay thirdly they have the more reason and necessitie in regard of such a miscarriage of their brethren to sue for a toleration here because by that miscarriage of theirs they are awakened to expect and feare yet far harder measure from you and your partie if they doe not bestirre themselves by some means or other to prevent it He that feeles the smart of rods to be grievous hath the more reason not the lesse to take heed of being beaten with Scorpions Fourthly and lastly why should you any wayes be against your brethren suing for a toleration when as there lies a necessity upon you to grant it or consent to it unlesse you mean to steere that New-England course which you have with so high a hand of indignation contested with in this very reason Except haply you have this ingenuous reach in it for your reputations that you would honest is precibus occurrere prevent all honest and reasonable requests with the early forwardnesse of your bountie If I could reasonably thinke this to bee your designe I would seriously perswade with the Apologists to wave their suit for a toleration and so to gratifie you with an honourable opportunitie of doing good before you were provoked by any mans suit or motion to it But men that are subject to feares are seldome sons of bounty The bottome it seems of all that A. S. hath pleaded throughout his Discourse against the Toleration of Apologisme is a solemne fear that possesseth him of being sent he and all his partie into some Isle of Dogs if the congregationall men bad but the upper hand over them Omnetimidum natura querulum But I can hardly beleeve that the man is really afraid of what he here pretendeth in which case he were rather to be pitied then roundly dealt with first because himselfe confesseth
suppose you mean though it 's hard both here and in twenty places more to know your meaning clearly be refused it will help to confirm the Churches and the people in truth We desire to know in truth of what It will indeed confirme both marvellously in the truth of Presbyterian fastnesse to their owne cause but in what other truth it should confirm either the one or the other we wait for our intelligence from you to know His last Reason answered Your 21. and last reason save onely those which you say you omit is but a slip of your ninteenth being somwhat that follows our of Independencie But here you tell us that the Government so called cannot but overthrow all sort of Ecclesiasticall Government Is Saul also among the Prophets Haec verba loquentis abâ—ore Gaudens arripio stâ—â—factus Namine adoro I joy over these words and reverence then somwhat I conceive to be of God in them Wee know who prophesied when he was not aware of it Indeed by the beauty and perfect consonancie of this government with the word of God it may very reasonably yea and upon higher termes then of reason be thought that in time it cannot but overthrow all sort of Ecclesiasticall government and stand up it selfe in their stead Fâ—xil Deus festinet But that which you adde in the close of this Reason plainly sheweth that you had no mind to prophesie though God had or might have bâ— yâ—u for here you say that this order by necessary consequence will bread all sort of disorder No first it will not breed the disorder of oppressing conscientious men for conscience sake nor secondly of discouraging men from seaâ—ching the Scriptures more narrowly not thirdly of having recourse unto the word for the setting up of the government of Christs Kingdome nor fourthly of making men walk sundry miles for what they might have upon as good or better termes at home besides a thousand other disorders which the order of your Independencie will never breed by any consequence at all necessary or unnecessary being of a very soveraign importance to prevent them And for your premisses in the body of your Reason by which you would fain make the match between the order of Independencie and all sort of disorder they are but false brokers The Independent Churches as you call them have no such custome as for one to give entertainment or admission to any person that hath been censured by another without the censure first relaxed by that Church which inflicted it or without the consent of this Church This is their reproach not their practice And thus we see that amongst A. S. his 21. Reasons there is not one that will stand by their Master when they are but a little put to it there is none of them but with a little perswasion and debate will willingly enough consent to a Toleration for the Apologists If the Disputant himselfe with his party were but as tractable as his reasons there need no more words be made about the businesse As for his after-birth of Reasons p. 65. since he professeth himselfe that he omits them we shall comport with him herein and omit them also I hope he will think himselfe a debtor to us for this compliance It seems that himselfe placeth no great confidence in them in that hee mentions them as if hee mentioned them not and thought them not worthy to be numbred amongst his first-born His Horsemen you see have been overcome and yeelded themselves his Infantery knows the manner of the field and will no question surrender without incounter Nor is there any thing for weight or substance in this Tail of Reasons but what hath been broken already in the Head FINIS