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truth_n	church_n	doctrine_n	teach_v	6,712	5	6.4919	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64381	A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison.	Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715.	1687 (1687)	Wing T723; ESTC R18602	49,387	102

all that belonged to the Heathenish Idolatry he tells That on the Solemnities of their Idols they had Flesh and Bread which by the Invocation of the Devils were defil'd as the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist before the Holy Invocation of the blessed Trinity was bare Bread and Wine but the Invocation being made the Bread becomes the Body of Christ. In like manner says he those Victuals of the Pomp of Satan which of their own nature are common or bare Victuals by the Invocation of the Devils become prophane From this illustration which he borrowed from Justin Martyr his second Apology it appears that he thought the Consecration of the Eucharist was of a like sort or manner with the prophanation of the Idolatrous Feasts so that as the substance of the one remained still unchanged so also according to him must the substance of the other remain Or if this will not suffice them let us see to what else he compares this change of Elements by the Consecration In his Third Mystag Catech. treating of the consecrated Oil he says As the Bread of the Eucharist after the Invocation of the Holy Ghost is no more common Bread but the Body of Christ so this Holy Oyntment is no more bare Oyntment nor as some say common but it is a gift of Christ and the presence of the Holy Ghost and becomes energetical of his Divinity And from these places let it be gathered what can be drawn from S. Cyril's Testimony And thus we have performed likewise what we promised and have given a clear account of S. Cyril's meaning from himself from whose own words and from these things which he compares with the Sanctification of the Elements in the Eucharist it appears he could not think of Transubstantiation otherwise he had neither compared it with the Idol-Feasts nor the consecrated Oyl in neither of which there can be supposed any Transubstantiation I will at present add only three or four Notes about this place of St. Cyril First that the Romish Translator Grodecius has as should seem to help this matter in his way render'd the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by sub specie panis sub specie vini under the shew of Bread and under the shew of Wine instead of in the Type or Figure of Bread and in the Type or Figure of Wine Secondly that just before the words cited in favour of Transubstantiation he uses these But in the new not Law as the Translator has it but Covenant the heavenly Bread and the Cup of Salvation sanctifie Soul and Body as the Bread agrees to the Body so the Word to the Soul. It should hence seem that the Body of Christ meant by St. Cyril was the Word and that both Bread and the Word were received by the Communicant Thirdly that St. Cyril's Third Catechise of the Illuminate or baptized opens the Sense of the Fourth Mystagogical Catechise for there he speaks in a very high strain of Consecrated Water and advises the Persons to be baptiz'd to come not as to common Water but as to the spiritual Grace given together with the Water Fourthly It is much to be doubted whether this be the Book of St. Cyril of Jerusalem for besides that Gesner saies he saw that Book in the Ausburg Library under the Name of John of Constantinople the Author forbids his Hearers to be Frequenters of Spectacles in Theaters or of Horse-races in Hippodromes for this there was no occasion at Jerusalem since it had become Christian there being especially in his time no such Sports and Places there that I have ever read of So in three Quotations the two first are taken out of suspected Authors yet I will allow the Catechisms to be ancient and to be ascrib'd to St. Cyril by Sophronius and St. Hierom yet they note that he compos'd them in his youth 3. Touching the Quotation out of Justin Martyr it was this in English and read out of the abovesaid Sheets called Speculum Ecclesiasticum by Mr. P. S. Justin. c. I suppose in Charity that Antonio for Antonino is the mistake of the Printer but'tis a mistake of some body else when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is translated As the Word of God Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made man c. instead of by the Word of God or the Divine Spirit Jesus Christ being made flesh c. But to pass to something more material I observe first That the foregoing words of Justin which are very considerable are omitted viz. That at the end of the Eucharist the Ministers distribute to every one present that he may partake of the consecrated Bread and Wine and Water c. Justin calls it Bread after Consecration as St. Paul did before him I observe secondly that Justin interprets himself whilst he saies It is not Common-Bread as if he had said It is Bread in its Nature but being consecrated and made the Figure and Pledge of Christ's Body it deserves a higher Name and indeed this is a Key to the Expressions of most of the Fathers and particularly to St. Cyril as has been already shown and it is plain to those who read the Fathers with Attention that they use such Language in relation to the Water in Baptism as they do in reference to the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist without teaching a Substantial change so Greg. Nyssen despise not the Divine Washing nor make light of it as Commmon I note thirdly that Justin affirms of the consecrated Bread and Wine that they nourish the Body and that therefore he is no Teacher of Transubstantiation which removes the Substances which nourish the Body And now how far is it from the true Art of Thinking and the sincere love of Truth to draw a Proof for a pretended Article of Faith from the high and hyperbolical Phrases of the Ancients by the same reason if the World should last 14 or 1500 years men might conclude that the Church of England taught the Doctrine of the Corporal Presence as well as the Church of Rome she having used these words in the Office of the Communion at the Consecration of the Elements Grant that we receiving these thy Creatures of Bread and Wine according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christs Holy Institution in remembrance of his Death and Passion may be Partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood. An Account of Doctor Tenison 's and Doctor Celgat 's going to the Savoy to Mr. Pulton UPon October the 3d. 87. Dr. Tenison and Dr. Claget went to the Savoy about Five at Night After having found Mr. Pulton the Jesuit in his Lodgings there Dr. Tenison desired him to call to them any one of his Friends that he might hear the Discourse which he was about to offer After being twice or thrice pressed to it by Dr. Tenison he call'd one in the Habit of a Jesuit a Grave and Civil Person his Name was not asked Then Dr. Tenison apply'd himself to Mr.

For Councils they were not to give a Rule of Faith but to make Peace in the Church by proceeding according to the Rule the Scripture If it had been otherwise the Christian World in which from the Beginning were many Divisions and Heresies had been long without a sufficient Guide or Rule seeing there was no General Council till 325 years after Christ. They alledged Scriptures and if they had not done so Men would not have stood to heir meer Authority or to any other Tradition than the Creed and not to that but by universal Consent as found in the Holy Bible 3. The third Motive is their Unity and the dividing and subdividing of the Reformed without end as having no Guide Yet the Protestants have the surest Rule and due Ministerial Helps and they have published a Harmony of Confessions of Faith. And in the Roman Church the Jansenists have accused the Jesuits of a new Heresy of the Pope's being infallible in Matters of Fact and about many other things they are at variance The Anti-blacloists accuse the Blacloists of Heresy about their Method of Oral Tradition The Assembly of the Clergy of Hungary have lately condemned the Theses of the Assembly of the Clergy of France as dangerous to the Souls of Men and there are now in Spain and Italy great numbers of the Disciples of Molinos who are against the use of Images in praying and the Invocation of Saints and other things for which the rest of the Church of Rome do so very much contend and it is not long since the Assembly of the French Clergy approved of a Book of Mr. Gerbais which this best of modern Popes condemned forbidding the reading of it upon Pain of Excommunication and of not being absolv'd by any but this Pope or some other Pope for the time being unless in the Article of Death Certainly what they differed about must be something of Moment otherwise it would not have drawn after it so heavy a Sentence And now we see how Father Walsh and Father Pulton differ here about a General Council which the said Father P. in his late Catechisings has own'd as his Rule of Faith. 4. The fourth Motive is the Zeal of making Conversions abroad The Question is Whether they are Conversions to the true Christianity of which we have Instances in the English Protestant Colonies For the Scribes and Pharisees compass'd Sea and Land to make Proselytes but it would have been much better for Religion if they had staid at home and mended their own Morals Balzac somewhere observes that most of the Conversions are made in warm Countries where there is Gold and other valuable Things and that the like Zeal does not move them towards cold and barren Nova Zembla And the manner of the Conversions made by the Spaniards in America is too Tragical to be related 5. The fifth Motive is Miracles The Church has no need of them for the confirming the Apostles Creed If the Creed of Pope Pius wants them lying Wonders agree well enough to a Sum of false Articles of Faith. But seeing Miracles are for them that believe not and not for them who believe why do they not shew a Sign among us who are not too hasty of Assent to Doctrines properly Roman The Letter says none pretend to Miracles but the Romans yet even the Quakers and some very nigh to them pretend both to Miracles and Infallibility 6. The sixth Motive is That Men of Quality go out of the World into Holy Orders It is in the Ecclesiastical State the readiest way to Preferment but I do not say that none have better Intentions 7. The seventh is that they built our Churches A good Argument for the Heathens who built the Pantheon or the Temple for the Worship of all strange Gods which now at Rome they use as the Church of All their Saints A good Argument for the Turks who in the Morea built many of the Mosques which are now by the Romanists used as Churches 8. The eighth is the Leachery of King Henry the 8th He liv'd and died a Papist and many Popes have out-gone him in Vice and more in Atheism However he was a great Prince and Luther is blam'd for using Language towards him which was not so respectful but the Priests can put into the Mouth of a Boy words very unseemly 9. The ninth is the Violence of Queen Elizabeth c. But who are the violent they that provoke or they they that punish when justly provok'd Till the Pope sent his Bull against her the Papists liv'd in great Quiet and Ease and came to our Service Gabiutius confesseth that Pope Pius did by all means possible disturb her Reign and he himself would not let her die in Peace for he makes her Death after a Reign of four and forty years to be a Judgement upon her and says as his sort of Charity mov'd him that she exchanged a wicked Life for everlasting Death After all this Weakness of Argument to pretend to Inspiration and the Holy Ghost is certainly to grieve that blessed Spirit of Truth After their having taught the Boy to say this of the Spirit of God 't is a small thing for them to lessen Dr. T. and to manage him in writing that Dr. T 's four hours-Discourse had more confirm'd him He could scarce be harder than he was before But these Virtuosi have found out an Art of confirming a Nether Milstone May God give J. S. and them the Grace of Sincerity If they had had a sufficient Measure of it they would not have taught him to say that the Roman Faith such as is now their Faith had been here for a thousand years For Gregory the Great sent not the same Canon of Scripture they now go by For he would not allow the Book of Maccabees to be Canonical and what Bible did he send for he confesses he understood no Greek Further it appears from the very Recantation of John Wickliff for the saving of his Life that there was then in England no such Doctrine as Transubstantiation publickly impos'd as an Article of Faith. That which comes at the close is still as false viz. that all the Relations of the selling of Pardons are Stories tho the Romish Historians agree in this with the Protestant that the gross Practice of the Popes selling Pardons by Tezelius was the occasion of Luther's leaving the Church of Rome A Brief Account of Mr. Pulton's second Narrative with cursory Notes upon it AFter Dr. T. had sent Mr. P. the first Copy of his Account Mr. P. sent him his second Account or his Narrative enlarged On this Dr. T. makes these Cursory Notes 1. He will have the Conference to be for the sake of J. S. tho Dr. T. had declared otherwise and cautioned against the old Trick of making a Conversion of one chang'd already to turn upon a verbal Conference And to the End that the Opinion of Dr. Horneck touching J. S. as