same Creeds which were anciently and universally believed in it so that I am as likely to come to know the true sense of Scripture as any others Po. Not so by your favour for you are no Member of the Roman Church which I will prove to be that Catholic Church mentioned in the Creeds and then it must follow that you neither have the true sense of Scripture nor can you be saved out of this Catholic Church Prot. I shall yield your Consequences when you prove the Antecedent but then you must not take it for granted without any Proof as your Priests use to do Po. I do not think it needs much proof for it is as visible as that the Sun is in the Firmament Prot. That cannot be for no body doth or can deny this but the far greater part of Christians utterly deny the Roman Church to be the Catholic Church yea and say it is Non-sense to affirm a part to be the whole or a particular to be universal And it must be well proved from Scripture which all Christians agree to be Gods Word be fore I can be perswaded that Christ who died for his whole Church will suffer three parts of four of those which he redeemed to be damned for not believing this Opinion as you most uncharitably affirm Po. Well for your satisfaction I will undertake to prove that S. Peter was the Chief of the Apostles and that Christ gave him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and built his Church on him as on a Rock and that the Bishop of Rome is S. Peters Successor and Head of that Church which Christ promised to lead into all truth and then you must confess the Roman Church to be that Catholic Church which is mentioned in the Creeds Prot. I hope you will give me leave to hear and examine your Proofs and on that condition pray proceed Po. Do not the Scriptures naming S. Peter in the first place shew he was the Chief of the Apostles Prot. This shews he was an Eminent Apostle but cannot imply any Superiority over the rest because Christ makes them all equal Judges sitting together upon twelve Thrones Math. xix 28. and forbids any of them to pretend any Superiority over the others and though there was one Emperor then over many lesser and inferiour Princes Christ saith It shall not be so among his Apostles Math. xx 26. Luke xxii 26. Nor would S. James have finally determined in the Council of Jerusalem in S. Peters presence Acts xv 13. or S. Paul have so openly opposed and reproved him if Christ had made him Superiour over all the Apostles Galat. ii 11 14. Po. Do you not read that Christ gave to him first and singly the Keys of the Kingdom of heaven and promised to build his Church on him as on a Rock so firm that the Gates of Hell should never prevail against it Math. xvi 18 19. Prot. I read that Christ in that place to Math. xvi 19. did not give but only promise to give him those Keys afterwards which promise he made also to all the Apostles Math. xviii 18. and when he came to perform it he gave the power of the Keys to them all alike John xx 22 23. And it was upon S. Peters Confession of Faith that Christ built his Church not upon his Person since we see the Gates of Hell immediately prevailed too far against him first in his labouring to tempt Christ not to suffer Math. xvi 22. and secondly in his denying him with many Imprecations Math. xxvi 24. But if I should grant all the Priviledges you heap on S. Peter without any good evidence from Gods Word that will not prove the Popes sole right to them all Po. Yes without doubt for the Bishop of Rome is certainly the Successor of S. Peter and consequently the Vicar of Christ and supream Head of the Catholic Church Prot. The Bishop of Antioch hath a better Title to be S. Peters Successor because the Scripture which never mentions his being at Rome says expresly he was there but if the Bishop of Rome had been S. Peters Successor that could not make him Head of the whole Catholic Church because S. Peter himself never pretended to any such Power or Title yea he was peculiarly the Apostle of the believing Jews who had been Circumcised Galat. ii 7. and to them he writes Nor doth Christ any where tell us he would leave one such Head on Earth or give any Orders to all Christians to obey any one Apostle Po. But we do believe the Bishop of Rome to be S. Peters Successor and if so how can our Lord make good his Promise to be with his Church to the end of the World if he do not make S. Peters Successor as infallible as S. Peter himself was by his presence and assistance Prot. If we grant an inspired Apostle to have been Infallible in order to setling the Faith and writing the Rule of it it doth not follow that his uninspired Successors should have this Priviledge now the Faith and Rule of it are fixed For then the Bishops of Antioch Jerusalem and Alexandria must be Infallible now And Christs Promise is not made to S. Peter or to any particular Apostle but to the whole Catholic Church so that as long as the true Faith is held in any one or more Churches Christs Promise is made good though other particular Churches fall away Po. But the Catholic Church in the Creed is an Apostolical Church and it was promised to the Apostles that he would lead them into all truth John xvi 13. which Priviledge belongs to Rome as being now the only free Apostolical Church in the World Prot. All Churches in the World at first were planted immediately or mediately by the Apostles and Christ did certainly make this Promise good to his Apostles who were led into all Truth and so long as any particular Church keeps close to this Truth which the Apostles taught the Promise is still made good to that Church and there were many particular Apostolical Churches under Pagan Emperors and may be now under the Turks it being not temporal Freedom but adhering to the Apostles Doctrine which makes a particular Church Apostolical and made the whole Catholic Church to be called so at first when the Creed was made Po. However you must grant it is most prudent to take the best way to come to the knowledge of the Truth Now it is both the easiest and certainest way for the People to come to this knowledge by believing as the Church believes Prot. It is neither so easie nor so certain a way as to Search the Scriptures Po. This is a strange Assertion Is it not easier to let your Pastors who are fitted for it by their Profession judge of matters of Faith than for you to take pains to find them out in Scripture Prot. My Assertion is not so strange as true For it is much more difficult for
such a man as I am to know what these Pastors have judged about these matters than to know what the Scripture saith of them Po. Have not Councils set this down and is not the Pope always ready to declare the Churches true Sense Prot. But how can I know which are lawful Councils or what they have determined or if I did know the Words and doubted of the Sense it would be very hard for me to get the Pope to tell me in words or writing what it was and if the Pope did this he cannot speak or write plainer than God hath done in holy Scripture and therefore I am told there is as much difference among you about the Sense of Councils and Popes as there is among us about the Sense of Scripture Po. Well but your own Catholic Bishop or Priest can tell you the true meaning of both Councils and Popes in all these matters Prot. So can our Protestant Bishops and Priests tell us the true meaning of Scripture But if you be forced to resort at last to particular fallible Men for the certainty of your Faith why do you boast of a better way to be infallibly assured of the Truth than Protestants can ever have and upon that false ground urge Men to come over to your Church Po. Because we rely upon that Oral Tradition which hath been delivered down through all Ages in the Roman Church and can never fail so long as we have living Witnesses to declare it and is not this certainer than a dead written Rule that may be interpreted as every man pleases Prot. No sure for all Men put things of greatest concern in Writing and do not trust things for Posterity to be told by word of Mouth A written Rule says always the same words and can have no ends upon us but your living Witnesses by forgetfulness or to serve their Pride and Covetousness may deliver Tradition variously And you have no Evidence that those things are Apostolical Traditions which your Church says are so but either ancient Writings which are of far less credit than Scripture and then also you must suppose those ancient Writings to be more evident than your Traditions because you prove these by them or else you must trust to fallible Men whose Interest it may be and is to deceive you and thus your present living Witnesses bear sole Testimony to themselves which is very suspicious at the best So that your way is neither certainer nor easier than ours Po. I know not what your way is unless you make every private Man to be judge of Scripture when that declares The People must enquire the Law from the Priests Mouth Malach. ii 7. And Commands us to obey them that are over us in the Lord Hebr. xiii 17. affirming that no Scripture is of any private Interpretation 2 Pet. i. 20. Prot. Our way is to read diligently and pray heartily to be directed And if we doubt then to go to our Protestant Bishops and Priests for they and not your Clergy are over us in the Lord and they are as able as willing and of as great Integrity as any among you to give us Satisfaction And though we do not pretend that every private Man may interpret difficult places without the advice of his Pastor Yet you are mistaken in your Interpretation of that Place of S. Peter 2 Pet. i. 20. Where the Apostle is proving the Scripture is a sure Rule because it was not written or first Interpreted by any private Mans Will or Fancy but the Authors spake by the Holy Ghost and according to the Will of God Which is nothing to your purpose Po. However it seems you are forced to rely on these Priests of yours for the true meaning of Scripture and the final certainty of your Faith and yet you call this a slavish thing in Catholics Prot. Our Priests do not barely tell us this or that is the Sense of Scripture and then forbid us all further enquiry which would really be an enslaving of their People But they compare one Scripture with another and give us sound and solid reasons for all their Expositions desiring us no further to believe them than the clearness of their evidence deserves and this allows us the freedom of rational Beings Po. But is it not contrary to Scripture and reason both that the People should judge of their Pastors Proofs and Declarations Prot. It is not contrary to Scripture for there all Christians are expresly commanded To prove all things and hold fast that which is good 1 Thess v. 21. and to try the Spirits 1 John iv 1. St. Paul bids the Corinthians Judge what he said 1 Cor. x. 15. And likes those who tried his Declarations by the Scripture Acts xvii 11. So that no doubt God will expect Men shall have something more to say for that Faith on which they trust their Souls than that their Priest barely affirmed that it was true Po. Is not the Priest judge of the People and can it be reasonable then that they should be his Iudges Deut. xvii 9. Prot. We do not pretend to judge our Priests but only to use our Reason which God gave us not in vain in judging meerly for our selves because we read that every Man shall bear his own burden and therefore every man must prove his own Work Galat. vi 4 5. and this gives us not any power over either our Priests or Fellow Christians 't is no judgment of direction for others but only a judgment of discretion which to strip us of is to degrade us into the rank of Brutes Po. Well though you seem fond of your own way yet even the good effects of our Method may convince any impartial Man it is better For do you not see how quiet and unanimous we are by our Peoples intire relyance on their Pastors Prot. This may prove it a cunninger but not a safer Method The Turks are as unanimous as they are in your Church but they may thank ignorance and severities for it And for our parts we envy not their happiness who have found out a way not prescribed by Christ to live peaceably in gross Errors and to be unanimous in their Mistakes Po. I know you aim at your Church and wonder how such a Man as you dare charge the Roman Church with gross Errors and Mistakes Prot. Because I can make my Charge good For if Scripture be the Rule of what we ought to believe and practise then your kneeling and praying before Images your Invocation of Angels and Saints adoring Relicks praying in an unknown Tongue Transubstantiation Half Communion Auricular Confession Indulgences and your Doctrine of Purgatory with divers others which I can name are gross errors and corruptions believed and practised in the Roman Church Po. You are very bold But I doubt not to justify all these opinions and practices and to convince you so fully of the truth and innocency of them that I hope you will own
he doth hear all that Men say of themselves whether they be Hypocrites or true Penitents and therefore we are advised to confess all our Sins daily to God the Supreme Judge and to labour to prove our Repentance to be sincere to him by amending our lives And we are not obliged to go to a Priest but in weighty Cases and on great Occasions Po. This is one great Complaint we have against your pretended Reformation that you do not oblige Sinners to 〈◊〉 any satisfaction for their Offences and have laid aside the Sacrament of Pennance Prot. We do account it necessary for notorious and scandalous Offenders to do a publick Pennance that their Shame and Sorrow may be as evident as their Crimes and this they are to do for Satisfaction to the Church 2 Cor. ii 7. And we hold it necessary in more secret Sins that the Sinner do heartily bewail them humbly confess them to God and utterly forsake them for the time to come and upon these terms we doubt not God will forgive them for Christs sake according to his Promises in Holy Scripture Prov. xxviii 13. Ezek. xviii 21. and we will trust Gods Word sooner than yours Po. But after God hath pardoned the Sinner as to the eternal Punishment due to him which Christ bought off He must satisfie the Divine Iustice for temporal Pains still remaining due to those Sins by submitting to the Pennances laid on him by his Priest Prot. This is a meer Device of your own not grounded on Holy Scripture for there it is declared that Christ hath delivered us from all the Course due to us and saved us to the uttermost and cleansed us from all Sin and made our Peace so that if we have Interest in him there is no Condemnation to us 'T is true God may and doth sometimes Câ—â—â—â—â—se good Men after he resolves to pardon them 2 Sam. xii 14. which is not to satisfie his Justice but to warn them not easily to run into the like Offences Heb. xii 6. And true Penitents have voluntarily put on Sackcloth and laid in Ashes and Fasted and Prayed c. But this was to shew the sincerity of their Repentance and the reality of their Sorrow for offending God or to make themselves more fit to pray earnestly for the averting the Divine Displeasure But Gods Word never makes these Acts any part of Satisfaction to God nor do we find one Precedent of Christ or his Holy Apostles enjoyning such Acts purely to satisfie Gods Justice for any remaining Punishment Po. Well you cannot deny it is more for the honour of Gods Iustice to enjoyn the Offenders to make him some satisfaction rather than to teach them he will freely forgive and you must grant it is more likely to restrain men from future Crimes if they suffer in Body or Goods for those that are past Prot. But it is not much for Gods Honour that when your Church pretends God will not remit these remaining temporal Pains without men do their Pennance yet she will remit the Pennance it self for a certain Price and so Money will buy off that which you say Christs Death doth not satisfie for And indeed none but the Poor almost do any Pennance with you the Rich who can gratifie the Priest well are Absolved and Indulged and however you order it in your Church there are as many notorious and customary Sinners for all these Pennances and Payments as any where else yea they sin with less fear and regret than others because they foresee a Pilgrimage or a little Fasting a few Lashes or a Sum of Money will make their Peace with the Priest and so they take little Care by a sincere Amendment to make their Peace with God Po. I suppose you reflect upon our Indulgences which are no other than the use of that Power of remitting Sins which Christ gave to S. Peter and in him to the Chief Pastor of the Catholic Church and doubtless it is a most comfortable thing when S. Peters Successor or his Delegates do so solemnly declare us clear from those Sins we have confessed Prot. S. Peter never sold this Power Acts viii 18. for he affirms We are not redeemed with corruptible things as Silver and Gold 1 Pet. i. 8. Had he used the same gainful Trade which the Pope drives he could not have said Silver and Gold have I none Acts iii. 6. So that you must not mention that holy Apostle as your Patron till you follow his Example and grant Pardons to none but them that upon a strict search are found truly Penitent and upon these terms which Christ makes necessary the Poor must have them as soon as the Rich and both freely But while your Church makes a meer Merchandize of them and grants them out to raise Money to enrich a Nephew to marry a Niece of the Popes or to aggrandize a Favourite and sends them into remote Countries to Men and Women whose Faces he never saw and of whose Penitence he hath no assurance we Protestants must look on them as a holy Cheat a hindrance of true Repentance and a trick to get Money Po. You are quite mistaken the Church designs nothing by these Indulgences but the Penitents Salvation the Money is a voluntary Offering and can you blame Holy Church for receiving the Oblations of the People Prot. It is no Crime to receive voluntary Oblations provided they be dispensed to the Poor But here is a certain Price set and the Money received goes in part to the Popes Coffers and in part to the wealthy Delegates or to rich Monasteries and it appears that Money is the main thing because Poor Men cannot get them nor will they give an Indulgence freely to the Indigent though never so penitent whereas the Rich that shew little signs of true Repentance may have them and are thereby hardned in their Sins Nor is it this Point alone but most of those disputed between us and you that are stiffly defended on your part because they advance the Wealth and Power of your Church Such is the Popes power to receive Appeals Images Relicks Saying Masses to deliver Souls Confession Pennances and two more not yet mentioned viz. Purgatory and the pretended Sanctity of your Religious Orders Po. 'T is not the Advantage we have by these Doctrines but the certain Truth of them which makes us so desirous you should believe them as appears in this Article of Purgatory which I shall prove first by Scripture and then by Reason to be a great Truth Prot. The Scripture declares very often and very plainly that there are two places of eternal Rewards and Punishments Heaven and Hell and if there be any Third place to which most Men are to go to suffer very great temporary Pains I doubt not but God hath revealed it as plainly and clearly as he hath done Heaven and Hell and therefore let me see you prove it by plain Texts of Holy Scripture Po. Our Saviour
your mistake and embrace these very things which you so rashly censure therefore let us discourse the particulars Prot. I can never be perswaded to kneel down and pray before an Image to offer up Incense and Gifts to it Since I read in Scripture we must not bow down to them nor worship them Exod. xx 4 5. and find Idolatry so grievously condemned there Po. I confess the Scripture condemns Idolatry but sure you cannot be so weak to think we take the Image for our God as Heathens did Prot. We cannot see your Thoughts but you do all those acts before your Images which Heathens did before theirs and I am told they excused themselves as you do by saying they did not take the Image for their God yet all Christians count them flat Idolaters Po. They were so because they worshiped Images of false Gods but you must not say we are so because ours are Images of the true God and his Saints Prot. They broke the First Commandment in having other Gods and you break the Second which forbids the making any Image to worship it not excepting the Image of the true God or of things in Heaven so that this only proves your Idolatry is of another kind not that it is no Idolatry at all The Jews were as real Idolaters for worshiping the Golden Calf though they took it for a representation of the true God Exod. xxxii 4 5. as when they worshiped Baal-Peor Numb xxv 2. Po. Well but we do not terminate any of our worship on the Image but on that which it represents the Image only helps to raise up our minds to the thing which is signified by it and our worship passes through the Image to that thing which cannot be Idolatry Prot. If it be an Image of the Saints which are Creatures it is Idolatry to ask any thing of them which is in Gods power to give and so your worship in that case ends in flat Idolatry And if it be an Image of God or Jesus Christ that worship which you give their Images and intend shall terminate on God must be Divine worship For otherwise you cannot worship God or Christ by worshiping your Images Po. But suppose our Church finds this way of worship helps devotion may she not command any mode of worship for so good an end Prot. No she cannot command any mode of worship forbidden in Scripture upon no pretence whatever And surely Christ and his Apostles knew what would help devotion as well as your Church but there is not in their Writings one word for this way of worshiping God and there is a plain Commandment against it and if you would confess truth the Carving Painting and Gilding of the Image takes off your Thoughts from attending the matter of your Prayers and so they hinder rather than help devotion Po. Is it any more Idolatry in our Church to command this than in yours to enjoyn you to bow at the Name of Iesus and to bow to the Altar Prot. There is some sort of pretence from the Scripture in Phil. ii 10. for Bowing at the Name of JESUS but you cannot shew any thing for Bowing to his Image whilst we shew a Command against it And we do not bow to the Altar but toward it that is we only look that way when we worship the true God but have no visible representation of him before us when we do this And besides this Ceremony is left at liberty so that none are bound to observe it Po. But do we not respect the Image of our Prince or our Friend for the sake of those they represent and ought not all Christians to respect the Images of Christ and his Saints for their sakes Prot. We do not talk to these Pictures of our Prince or Friend not make Petitions to them this would look like madness We do respect the Image of Christ but that will not serve you unless we fall down and worship it but we must answer you We are to worship the Lord our God and him only must we serve Math. iv 10. Po. I confess we cannot expect you should pray before the Images of Saints and Angels till we have convinced you of your Error in not praying to Angels and Saints so that I shall now go on to prove that it is lawful to call upon Angels to help us for did not Jacob do so Gen. xlviii 16. Prot. Pray read the place and you will find he prays only to the Angel that redeemed him That is to Christ who appeared as an Angel often to the Patriarchs before his Incarnation and is called the Angel of Gods presence Isai lxiii 9. But the created Angels would not suffer St. John so much as to bow down to them Revel xix 10. and Chap. xxii 8. saying that was a piece of worship due to God Yea the pretended humility of going not directly to God but by the Mediation of Angels is called a deceit and plainly forbid by the Apostle Coloss ii 18. And Christ hath Taught us to pray to his Father if we want the assistance of his Angels Math. xxvi 53. Po. Doth not your Bible tell you the Souls of the Martyrs under the Altar pray for us Revel vi 9 10. And may we not then desire them to pray to God for us Prot. Those Spirits only pray in general for the speedy coming of the Day of Judgment and are bid to rest in quiet till then Ver. 11. But this is no ground for particular Men in distant places to ask particular things of them as Health Wealth Peace Protection Yea Pardon Grace and Glory which none but God can give Nor doth the Scripture any where declare we should ask these things of any other but God Po. How dare you that are a Sinner whom God will not hear John ix 31. presume to ask these things directly of God himself without desiring his Friends to pray for you Prot. Though I am unworthy yet I am commanded to pray and to ask all that I need in Christs Name and am promised if I do so I shall be heard John xiv 13 14. And Chap. xvi 23 24. Yea I am told he is my Advocate 1 John ii 2. And that there is but one Mediator between God and Man 1 Tim. ii 5. Now after all this I think it is a greater presumption without any command direction or promise to make use of the Saints as our Advocates and Mediators for it is to leave the way prescribed by God and invent a new one of our own it is to take that Honour which belongs to the Son of God and give it to his Servants so that we may well believe it will disoblige him we pray to Po. You do not consider that we hold the Saints joyn their intercession to that of Christ and therefore to desire them to pray for us can be no injury to Christ whom we deny not to be our Mediator Prot. It must suppose Christs Intercession not