of whom onely his reason dependeth which wil haue them alike necessary His reasons that the milk indured not long nor was general besides that they are popish reasons are not proued and may be in part confuted in that yt had not onely place in Afrik but in the west partes not onely in Tertullians but also in Ieromes tyme At the least the anointing in Baptim was as general and of as long continuance as the cros For being in Afrik in Tertullians tyme yt spred yt self into the east and west churches with such continuance as from them yt passed into the pâ—pish synagoges aswel as crossing To this defence may wel be referred that which he answereth pag. 275 vnto my obiection that Sensors Tapers holy bread c are euen of the same coate that the surplice is of and to be measured with the same pole for yf his answer there which is that the surplice is indiffereÌ„t but that these thinges be falsly accouÌ„ted indifferent be good yt wil help to succour his weaknes here and yf yt be shewed nawght here nether wil yt serue hym there Let hym tel vs therefore why the surplice and the cros with their significations should be indifferent and oyl and tapers c with their interpretations falsly counted indifferent Here we must beleue hym of his word for reason he hath none Howbeit page 291 where he repeateth this again he pretendeth this reason that the one haue an opinion of saluation and of worship annexed al which saith he we remoue from these orders which sauing that yt is against hym self is to no purpose For in the first part of his answer he giueth to vnderstand that the papistes shameful abuse of these thinges is cause enowgh to make them now vnindifferent which is contrary to the whole cours of his defence and in the later part of his answer he giueth to vnderstand that their oyl tapers censors holy bread and holy water may be browght into our church so that the opinion of saluation and worship be by a publik and solemn protestation of the indifferency of them remoued Vâ—ho knoweth not also that the abuse of the papistes hath bene as great and rather greater in the cros especially by opinion of saluation and worship then euer were the tapers or sensors whereupon yt is manifest that the D. herein can make no more distinction or difference betwene the cros and the surplice with oyl and tapers c then he vhich chaulketh â–ª as they say a vuhite lyne vpon a vuhite vual Let vs therfore return In the next diuision to diuers reasons against this ceremony in Baptim boeth simply and in respect of the present tyme he answereth not a word onely he passeth the tyme in shewing how the papistes vsed yt otherwise then we doe which is not in question In the next to that alledged of the signification making yt more popish he answereth that the papistes did not declare the signification and that they were therefore dumb with them as thowgh their pulpites rung not oftentymes of such vnsauory voices or that a number of the simpler papistes knw not this popish deuinity To that that yt bringeth in a nue vuord into the church he answereth that there is nothing against yt in the word which is vntrue For althowgh the ceremony of crossing were conuenient yet to rayse a doctrine of yt is vnlawful for asmuch as yt is not enowgh to teach the truth vnles yt be truly tawght and that is onely owt of the word of god Now let hym shew a word of god that two lynes laid croswise signifieth that we should not be ashamed of the passion or cros of Christ Hetherto belongeth that which he hath 291 towching the surplice where yt appeareth that his defence in this cause is spekled and of diuers colours For there in the first section he giueth playnly to vnderstand that he aloweth not that a man should draw any such signification from the apparel as the admonition doeth from sitting at the lords supper Now the signification yt bringeth of rest and of a ful finishing throvugh Christ of al the ceremonial lavu and of a perfect redemption vurovught that giueth rest for euer ys a holy doctrine therefore yt foloweth that he wil not haue so much as an holy and an agreable doctrine vnto the rest of the scriptures fetched owt of the wearing of the apparel which is the same thing which I affirm namely that yt is not enowgh that the thiÌ„g signified be accordiÌ„g to the scripture onles the significatioÌ„ yt self be raised and grouÌ„ded of the scripture So that hereby he hath vtterly ouerthroweÌ„ hym self not onely in the signification of the apparel but also in this of the cros and that after of the ring For by the same reason that he misliketh al such signification in the one he must needes mislike yt in the other I answer the supposed reason of M. Martyr directly For â—eing yt buildeth the wearing of a white surplice vpon that the Ministers are called angels yt must folow that the same cause that moueth the scripture to bring in the Angels clad in white must be the lesson that the Ministers haue to learn of their white apparel which whether yt be purenes or glory or boeth yt being a true representation in them is as I said a lying sign in the Ministers which are miserable and sinful men Herein also to that which I obiected that by the same reason the Ministers should vuear vuinges because the Angels are so described he can answer nothing whereunto ad that hereof there is yet more cause For the white apparel which the Angels wore was no signification of their office but of their pure and glorious nature wherein they were created and wherein they stil remain whereas the winges shadow forth their office which is that they are swift messengers of god in al thinges whereunto they are sent Therefore seing this reason wil haue the coÌ„formity betwene the heaueÌ„ly spirites and Ministers of the gospel to stand in respect of their office their winges being a picture of their office and not the whitenes of apparel yt foloweth that the conformity should be rather in the winges then in the whitenes of apparel To that which I alledged against them which make yt a ciuil matter that by this signification yt is made ecclesiastical he opposeth that a graue apparel putteth vs in minde of grauity Yâ— doeth so and that is no ciuil nor yet ecclesiastical but a diuine order that by how much a man hath obteyned at the hand of god such an estate or dignity as requireth such apparel by so much he is bound in the whole cours of hys lyfe by modesty and grauity to shew hym self thankful whereof euen his table better furnished then other mens owght likewise to put hym in remembrance And these thinges haue a perpetual conuenience which can not be changed As for the seueral habites of degrees
The rest of the second replie of Thomas Cartvurihgt agaynst Master Doctor Vuhitgifts second ansvuer touching the Church discipline Isay lxij vers j. For Syons sake I vuil not hould my tong and for Ierusalems sake I vuil not rest vntil the righteousnes thereof break forth as the lihgt and the saluation thereof be as a burning lamp Ibid. vers 6 7. Ye that are the Lords Remembrancers kepe not silence and gyue him no rest vntil he repair and set vp Ierusalem the praise of the world Imprinted M. D. LXXVII TO THE READER ACcording vnto my promes yovu haue here the residvu of my reply vnto the Doctors ansvuer Of the late appearing vuhereof yt vuil not be vneasy to coniecture yf boeth the distance vuhereby I am remoued from yovu and the alterations in the place vuhere I remayned be remembred In me verely the cause vuas not vuhich more then a year agoe had brovught yt in a maner to the redines vuhich yt vuas in vuhen yt began to be printed ▪ But considering the great enmytie against the cavuse vuith some displeasure against my self some vuil peraduenture say that I haue rather need to seek excuse vuhy I set yt forth at al then so late To vuhome I vuould yt vuere ansvuered that for the cause yt self I neuer fear least yt should come to often into the field For althovugh throvugh the pouertie of the defenders thereof she come neuer so naked and vnarmed yet the lord hath set such a maiestie in her countenance that as vuith one of her eyes she rauisheth into her loue those vuhich are desirous of the trvuth in this behalf so vuith the other she so astonisheth her enemyes as if they vuere cast into a dead sleap in such sort that the stovutest of them vuhen they come to the fight can not finde their handes Vuhome I admonish and besech also in gods behalf that hovusoeuer they haue hetherto bene ouertaken by the aduersary they vuould novu at the last vuithdravu their foot and those that haue bene Standerd bearers herein not onely to retyre them selues but to blovu the retyre also vnto others Let yt be enovugh for them to haue stumbled at the truth least if they run them selues against yt in sted of thinking that they haue to doe vuith men and vuith vuordes they meet vuith Chryst him self at vhome as at a rok they shal vurake them selues myserably vpon vuhome also yf any come proudly the same stone vuilfal and break them al to fitters to their boeth deepest and moste remediles condemnation For hovu gloriously soeuer men speak of the sun of god yet they al no dovut rush them selues vpon hym that rush them selues vpon his vuord Let them therefore in tyme look vnto yt that they giue place vnto the rok for the rok vuil giue none to them and assure them selues that their heeles vuil sooner ake vuith kicking against the prik then yt in receyuing their broken and strenghtles resistance Vuhich as in assurance of the trvuth mainteyned by vs I propound vnto them so yf in buylding vpon this goulden foundation of the church discipline there hath escaped any stubble or hey of myne I vuil god vuilling not forget the same admonition to be a lavu vnto my self to bring the first fier to consume yt vuith Novu vuhen the truth by this trial getteth ground the displeasure against my self is no sufficient cause to vuithdravu my hand from this defence For vuhen the compas of our loue tovuards god must be moten by the thred of our affection tovuards his truth I see not hovu I could persvuade my self to haue to the quantitie of a grain of mustard seed of trvu loue tovuards hym yf vnto the trvuth laboring and trauailing in this point I should deny my simple help And verily yt vuere a deintynes and dilicacy vntollerable yf I should not afourd the los of a little ease and commoditie vnto that vuhere vnto my life yt self yf yt had bene asked vuas dvu if I should grudg to dvuel in another korner of the vuorld for that cavuse for the vuhich I ovught to be ready altogether to depart ovut of yt finally yf I should think much to vuitnes vuith a little ink and paper that vuhich numbres in other places haue alredy vuitnessed vuith their blood Vuhereunto serveth that yt is not the least part of my comfort that in this vacation from the ministery the lord hath not suffered me to be altogether idle but imployed me if not in griffing and setting vuhich are the mastervuorkes yet in hedging and ditching abovut the Orchyard of his church purchased vuith his moste precious blood Last of al I assure my self that the same cavuse vuhich hath brovught this displeasure is able yf need be to set me in favour again Vuherof I vuould little do vut if yt might come to ansvuer before them before vuhome yt hath bene so vnvuorthely accused Alcibiades vuhē one lifted vp his staf redy to smyte hym yf he vuould not hould his peace trusting vnto the vertvu of the truth Smite saith he so that yovu hear Vuhen therefore these humane trvuthes being propounded notvuithstanding al oppositions by reason of former praeiudices in the end finde fauour and haue a resting place hovu much more the heavēly trvuth sanctified and sealed by the blood of the sun of god shal at the lenght haue the gates opened vnto her I graunt there is greater resistance vnto this holy trvuth then vnto other common and humane but he that is autor and mainteiner of al trvuth dravueth a great deal deeper vuhen he shooteth forth this arrovu then vuhen he sendeth forth the other And thus much for ansvuer to them vuhich not misliking the cavuse may for that ether in their iudgment I stryue against the stream or els for that I depriue my self of cōmodities vuhich I might othervuise enioy esteme my labor ovut of season Sauing the table vuhere the greater letter is the Doctors the varietie of letters is the same and to the same end vuhich yt vuas in the former part of this book vuhere the reader may take his direction Of vuhome as before I craued prayer for the lords assistance so novu I desire that thankes may be giuen vnto hym for al that vuherein he shal vnderstand yt to haue bene vuith me AN ANSVVER TO THE RESIDVE of the surmises as they are comprehended in the D. tvuo tables In the first Table The eight is ansvuered 248 249 250 251. The tenth is ansvuered 173. The eleuenth 138 c. The tvuelfth 145 c. The thirtinth 191 192 193. The sixtinth is vnvuorthy any ansvuer seing yt is manifest that al those vuhich haue right to be baptezed ovught to be houlden of the visible church or family of god vuhere of the question is as yt is further declared by the examination of the D. censures The seuentinth is mainteined touching papists childrē 142. And there is the same reason of the children of
I propounded yet his iudgment is al one Here Pantaleon and M. Bale are reiected as insufficient to make report of Eugenius doeinges which was so long before their tyme and yet Erasmus is stoutly vpholden for reporting Titus to haue bene an Archbishop albeyt Titus was 600 yeares before Eugenius But if the D. can not shew any that commaunded that the Bishops should haue prisons before Eugenius these writers shal be able easely to maintayn their credit against his bouldnes of affirming and denying what so euer he listeth To that owt of Possidonius that those matters alledged of the Bishop to be doen of Augustin could not be ciuil affaires considering that he immediately opposeth them vnto secular or worldly matters beside wordes he answereth nothing he opposeth other places owt of Augustin wherof the first owt of his book of the workes of monkes can not be vnderstanded as he would haue it of any iudgment giuen by reason of ciuil autority For that which he did he affirmeth that the Apostle commaunded it should be doen by the most contemptible in the church So that oneles he dare say that the Apostle commaunded that the simplest in the church might bear ciuil office when the Magistrat being an enemy would commit no autority vnto him this place is vtterly from the purpose Again when Augustin saith that the Apostle hath tyed him so to doe and laid yt vpon him if the D. wil haue that a ciuil office is there vnderstanded it must folow that the ciuil office is incideÌ„t vnto the office of the ministery and can not be seuered from it The place owt of his epistle 110 is to as smale purpose For in that it appeareth there that the Councels decreed that Augustin should ceas from those busines it is manifest that he dealt with them not by any right of ciuil office For what had the Councel to doe to decre that he should not doe that which the Magistrate had lawfully laid vpon him he owght to haue sowght the releas of that at the Magistrates haÌ„d and not at the Councels likewise in that he obteineth of the people that these matters should be turned from him vpon Eradius and that in an ecclesiastical assembly where they met for chusing of one to succede Augustin in the Bishoprik it is manifest that it was no ciuil office Last of al it is to be obserued that in boeth these places Augustin complaineth of these matters as of hinderances vnto his Ministery as thinges which did more let the cours of yt then if he had vurovught euery day vuith his handes in some occupation that he seeketh to be deliuered from them at the Councels and at the peoples handes whereas our D. saith that they are not onely no hinderances but necessary helpes to doe the Ministery with and not onely seeketh not that the Bishops may be discharged but maketh cordes to binde these offices streighter to theÌ„ I haue reported the truth the Bishops wordes are owt of Clement that it is not lavuful for a Bishop to deal vuith boeth svuordes likewise that he ovught to be remoued that vuil supply the place boeth of a ciuil Magistrate and of an ecclesiastical person These wordes doe not onely coÌ„demn the pulling the sword owt of Princes haÌ„des but al vse of it in eccles ê‘sons I pray god that the custome of shameful denials doe not so harden your forhead that no point of truth how sharp soeuer can perce it Howbeit I trust whatsoeuer yt please yow to say it is manifest to al that doe not willinglie close their eyes against the truth that the scripture teacheth that Ministers owght not to medle with ciuil offices That which yow ad owt of Deut. 17 maketh nothing for yow for they are there biddeÌ„ to resort vnto the Priest as to the Interpreter of the law when the question was difficult and they knew not what to doe which is manifest in that he distinguisheth there the Priest from the Iudges so that in such appeales he placeth the Priests and Leuites office in teaching what is the wil of god and the Iudgis office in giuing sentence accordingly as appeareth yet more plainly in the same chapter The same is to be answered to that alledged owt of Nombers 27. In which matter that the Priest was present and called to consultation for the difficulty thereof to know what was the wil of god in that behalf it is manifest in that he being not able to resolue of the matter Moses was fayn to bring it to the lord To let pas that it was not Aharon which was taken into that consultation but Eleazar onles yow wil haue Aharon decide controuersies after his death The example of Melchisedec boeth king and Priest is more absurdly alledged then the other not onely because he was before the law when this order of separating the priesthood from the ciuil gouernment was not yet established but because he had them boeth that he might be a figure of our Sauiour Christ as the Apostle and Prophet doe declare Yow might much better haue alledged Abraham which was boeth a Priest a Prophet and a noble warrior which notwithstanding yourself doe not permit vnto the Bishop As for the appeal which Constantine graunted from the ciuil Magistrate vnto the Bishops likewise Theodostus and Carolus graunt that men might chuse the Bishops Iudges of their controuersies if either party would they were the wrestes wherwith the Princes scepters were wrung owt of their handes and as I haue before shewed owt of M. Caluin al syncerity ovut of the churches yea vpon that very graunt of Constantin it is noted in the margent that it is repugnant boeth to the doctrine and example of S. Paul. And in deed by the first of these decrees the Bishops ciuil autoritie is made equal with the Emperours And by the other it is at the pleasure of the people whether al the ciuil Magistrates shal be Idoles or no hauing the bare name of the Magistrate withowt doeing any duty For if ether of the parties be affected towardes the Bishops iudgment the Magistrates may goe lay them down to sleep Nether doeth it folow that because the Emperours gaue such liberty or licentiousnes rather vnto the church or because some Bishops vsed it that therfore the practise of the church was such For I haue shewed that the godly Counceles forbad it and that the godly fathers vtterly misliked of it And as I haue alledged some so it is not hard to alledg others to the same effect In his example of Dorotheus his translation is fauty For in steed of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth a ciuil honour he hath turned it priesthood as if it had bene 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the office also which Eusebius noteth he had was to ouersee the purple dyes in Tyre an office to aduance the Ministery I think in the D. own iudgment very vnfit His examples of Philaeas and
decree they did as it were couertly confes that they had receiued the reward of breaking the order of god in permitting that the Elder should teache in the church For if it had bene of the institution of an Elder to preach Nether Arrius nor ten thowsand moe suche heretik Elders owght to haue giuen cause of such a decree seing the institution of the lord owght not to be broken for any abuse of men Ierome I graunt somewhere doeth reprehend this and some learned of our tyme after him haue estemed the decree of Alexandria fauty herein But that being considered which I haue alledged there is no cause to condemn that decree whether it were of the Nicen councel or of Athanasius and the Eldership of Alexandria And what if Ierome him self althowgh an Elder of Rome giue testimony vnto this cause that is to say that yt belongeth not vnto an Elder of the church to minister the word or Sacramentes Let his wordes be weighed wherby he confesseth playnly that nether Elder nor Deacon had right but vpon the Bishops commandement so much as to baptiz vuhich notvuithstanding saith he is licenced euen to laymen in tyme of necessity Vnhereunto also refer that which Tertullian writeth that it belonged vnto the Bishop onely to baptiz and that the Elder and Deacon could not baptiz but vpon the Bishops licence Now if the Elders had no right to preach c. by reason of their office or as incident into yt if the Bishop onely had right and the other but by indulgence or commandement thus far we haue boeth Tertul. and Ierome agreeing with vs that by the word of god and his institution the Elder hath not to doe with the word and Sacramentes And the same autors we haue also flatly contrary to the D. which houldeth as appeareth by the discours of his book that al Elders and Deacons of the church althowgh not in gouernment yet towching the ministery of the word and sacramentes are equal and haue as much autority as the Bishop him self This difference onely remaineth betwene Ierome and vs whether this being not of gods institution that an Elder may preach or Minister the sacramentes it be lawful for any man to giue licence therof which bouldnes of remouing and changing the boundes which the lord in the tarriers of his word hath limited boeth is before and shal afterward god willing be further handled Last of al for proof of these church Elders which being occupied in the gouernment had nothing to doe with the word the testimonie of Ambrose alledged in my former book is so clear and open that he which doeth not giue place vnto yt must needes be thowght as a bat or an owl or some other night bird to delight in darknes His saying is that the Elders fel avuay by the ambition of the Doctors where by opposing the Elders to Doctors which tawght he plainely declareth that they had not to doe with the word whervpon it is manifest that boeth yt was the vse in the best reformed churches certein hundreth yeares after the tymes of the Apostles to haue an Eldership which medled not with the word nor administration of Sacramentes and that they which wanted it partly complayned of the want partly declining from this institution of god corrected their error at the least they kept this difference that whereas the Bishop preached and ministred the Sacramentes in right of his office the Elder did it not as a thing incident to his office but onely vpon indulgence of the Bishop Another point wherin the D. turneth his tong is that where he confessed before that there was in euery church Seniors now he saith in some onely And to salue this contradiction with him self he saith by euery church he ment euery cheif city Thus yow speak but by what rule and according to whose language when yow expound euery church euery cheif citie as if their were no churches but in cheif cityes But thus must al their tonges be deuided which put them forth against the truth Howbeit to come to that point by what reason can yow shew that the Apostles instituted a seueral Ministery for cheif cities which they did not for vplandish townes what were this but to bring in an inequality amongest the churches which your self otherwhere confes owght not to be Yt is I graunt meet for the furtherance of the gospel that the cheifest cityes when al can not be serued should haue the first the sufficientest and according to their need the greater numbre but that they should haue a seueral Ministery ordeyned for them into the felowship whereof the smaler churches may not be admitted is withowt reason Secondly the gospel which conteyneth the doctrine and discipline went not owt of Ierusalē into the cheif cityes onely but into al the world Thirdly it hath bene shewed that the epistle of S. Paul to Timothy wherein mention is made of the interteinment of these Elders was not a rule prescribed to churches in great cities onely but vnto al churches wherosoeuer Further seing the Elders are continually ioyned with the Bishop it being shewed that the lord ordeyned for euery congregation a Bishop it must folow that he ordeyned for euery congregation Elders finally for as much as the Apostles labored to bring the churches one with another to an vniformity euē in the smalest ceremonies how can they be thowght to haue made so vneuen work in the Ministery of the church I let pas here the place in the Actes before handled where it is said that Elders vuere ordeyned in euery church Likewise the necessity of them aswel in other churches as in churches in the citie which is after to be handled Onely I wil note what hath bene the practise of the churches in this point wherby may appear how the auncient fathers haue vnderstood this order That Ignatius which the An. wil haue S. Iohns scholer affirmeth that there is no church vuhich can stand vuithovut her Eldership or Counsail This is manifest also by the Apologie of Tertullian wherin he defending the gouernmēt of al the churches not of those onely in cityes and shewing for that cause the order obserued in them maketh precise mention of this Senate of Elders as hath bene before alledged The testimony of M. Bucer is also manifest in this point as it is alledged of me before Likewise of M. Martyr who affirming that certeyn of the people vuere ioyned vuith the Pastor in the gouernment of the church assigneth the cause for that the Pastor could not doe al him self thereby giuing to vnderstand that the Eldership was as general as the Pastor For he doeth not say where the Pastor could not doe al there he had assistance of an Eldership but because the Pastor could not doe al c. The onely reason which the An. hath against this is that there was not an Eldership amongest the Iues in euery of their synaguoges But as
church is the foundatiō of the vuorld and therfore the common wealth builded vpon yt must be framed vnto yt he saith that yt is obscure c. But it is for wāt of light in hym self for otherwise the thing is clear And to leau Salomons prouerb which Rabbi Leui Ben Gerson doeth so interpret and whereof in deed the sens may wel be that where the wicked are caried away with the tempest the iust not onely stand fast but be the cause why the world standeth I say to leau that S. Peter playnly confirmeth that the cause why this world endureth is for that the ful number of the elect is not yet gathered so that as sone as they are assembled by the ministery of the church there shal be forthwith an end of the world As for that he bringeth against this yt is vnworthy the rehersal for of the thre first he can conclude nothing and his last answer is no better For yt talketh of a change of that which is laid vpon the foundatiō wherunto the common wealth is likened and is that which I affirm but of changing the foundation wherunto the church is compared not a word the two next diuisions be answered Here he presseth that which he inferreth of the Admo ▪ that if the rule of moe in the church be better then of one because it is easier to turn one then a company from truth and equity it should therfore folow that the moe that gouern the better it should be which he hath now mended by putting for moe moe good men nothwithstāding that this also is but sophistry For by the same form of reasoning it should folow that because two bittes of meat norish more thē one therfore the more a mā eateth the more he shal be norished he should therefore vnderstand that as there is in this gouernment a defect so there is an exces and betwene boeth a mean vuhich is to be houlden and that as the comodity of hauing the church iudgmentes handled by a company is to be sowght after so the inconuenience and confusion of assembling a great multitude for euery ecclesiastical case that may befal is to be avoided Beside that it is not enowgh that they which should gouern be good mē oneles they be of greater counsail and iudgment then the rest of the body of which sort when he wil not affourd vs any iust numbre he might wel haue spared this obiection Yf it were greatly to the matter it were easy to shew moe lavuful formes of common vuealths thē three Likewise that althowgh commō wealthes haue their names of that which beareth the cheif sway yet that they are to their profit tēpered and mixed one with another singularly the monarchy This is to be seen namely in our land where to the passing of diuers thinges the consent of the Parliamēt is so required as that withowt yt those matters can not pas The next is already partly and partly commeth after to be answered Here he denieth most shamefully that he alledged Ambrose to proue that Seniors owght not to be vnder a Christian Prince For boeth the sentence immediatly going before and folowing after driue thereunto yea and that he affirmeth vpon confidēce of Ambrose saying onely for other proof he hath not It is therfore to great bouldnes that he asketh me why I gathered the tyme betwene Phillip and Ambrose Then he denieth that the Eldership florished in Constantines tyme but he is much to blame For the Centuries wherin he hath bene raking so often must needes haue tould hym that the same orders and functions of the church were in that tyme which were before And it is manifest that the churches were gouerned vnder hym as before by Bishops Elders and Deacons by that which is recited of an infinite number of Elders and Deacons vuhich came to the Councel of Nice vuith the 250 Bishops moreouer yt being before declared and in part confessed by him that this gouernment was before Constantines tyme if he be not able to shew that Constantin changed yt the same must be presumed After not denying but that it might be vnder some Christian Prince he saith that it is not the question whether it may be but whether it owght to be which how vntrue it is let the reader iudg of that I haue before noted To Ierom that saith that the Christian church hath her Eldership he answereth they were Ministers of the word and Sacramentes his reason because they were such as S. Paul speaketh of vnto Timothe maketh for vs which haue shewed that S. Paul speaketh there of Elders that gouern onely which may be better vnderstanded in that Ierom compareth them with the Eldership of the Iues which was as hath b appeared a seueral order from the Priestes and Scribes that interpreted the law and offered the sacrifices Duarenus also helpeth him not rather he maketh against him For in that he saith that the Canons succeded into the place of the Elders he declareth that the Canons are of another order then they were As when Ierome saith that the Bishops succeded vnto the Apostles he meaneth not that the Bishops are of the same degre and order of ministery with the Apostles the next I leau to the readers iudgment Vnto Ambrose he answereth yf he misliked the abrogating of this Seignory why did he not labour to restore yt That he misliked yt is manifest when he condemneth the Ministers of the vuord of negligence for suffering it to vuear ovut of the church or rather of pride vuhilest they onely vuould seme to be some vuhat he labored also in part to restore yt in that he reprehended the abolishing of yt whether he did further labour or no is not expressed the best is to be supposed which is that to his power he endeuored to set in that the want whereof he condemneth But Ambrose was no lord Bishop that he could doe in the church whatsoeuer he desired his extreme bouldnes in denying that ether he was abused or would haue abused other let the reader iudg of also in that he saith Ambrose maketh nothing for our cause to whose iudgmēt I also leau the next diuision Yf he denie that church officers which hādle church matters and vuatch ouer the sovules of mē be ecclesiastical officers then let hym deny also that two and two make fower But so gentilmen and handycraftes mē should be ecclesiastical persons why not if they be chosen thereto were S. Paul and Isay the Prophet no ecclesiastical persons because one was a Tentmaker the other of the kinges stok Nether occupations nor dignities haue any such mark of vncleannes or profanation that they may not be coupled with the church ministery when the ministery is such as togither with their professions they may also execute yt in which kinde is the Eldership of the church I omit that the D. hath here patched togither a sentence of M. Caluin before
which affirmeth that al men preached in the Apostels tymes he can receiu no benefite of him in this place For if al did preach aswel as baptiz then it is true which I say that none had the ministery of the sacramentes but he which had the ministery of the word withal and vntrue which he affirmeth owt of Ambrose that some were ministers of the word which were not of the sacramentes Likewise is the testimony owt of M. Beza wherto I haue answered before flat against hym in this cause considering that his iudgment is that the Deacons did boeth preach and administer the sacramentes sometyme And as there is no harmony betwene hym and his autorityes so is there none betwene the sentences of his autors which he hath mashed togither For where some say al other say that Priestes onely baptized where he saith Musculus doeth alow that some should minister the sacramentes which can not preach yt is very true and further that he would rather haue yt doen by them then by those that can preach But his ground is vpon the misvnderstanding of Act. the 6 whilest he toke the ministring to tables which is the prouision for the poor for the ministring of the lordes supper The foundation therefore of his assertion being naught the assertion yt self can haue no place The place of the 1. Timoth. 5. is answered so is his question To return again therfore to his demaund where he asketh what point of Anabaptism it is that wemen may preach in the church when there is no other that can nor wil I answer that yt approcheth to that braunch whereby the Anabaptistes hould that meÌ„ may preach withowt an owtward calling of the church onely if they think it needful Vuhere I obiected his building vpon examples of a fevu particular persons vuhich alovueth not ours althovugh they be grounded vpon the general vse of the churches in the Apostels tyme he answereth that he buildeth no necessary rule but onely that yt may be doen vpon like occasion But this is but a vayn shift For those extraordinary actes whych are comendable were doen ether by expres coÌ„mandement or by special direction of the spirit of god the obedience whereunto was not at their chois to doe or to leau vndoen So that if the Ans wil haue these examples to be the directers of baptim by midwiues they not onely may but owght to doe yt And if there were any such case of necessity as he vntruly pretendeth and that yt might in such a case be ministered by wemen it were absurd to leau it in the chois of the Midwife whether she would minister it or no. But note I beseche yow what horrible confusion he bringeth into the world by this saying For if extraordinary examples doe proue that such thinges may be doen in such cases then may priuate men execute malefactors because Phinees did so and men may borow and neuer pay as did the Israelites If he say that he addeth vpon like occasion and circumstance it is true but thereby he meaneth yf like need or necessity be For if he mean as he owght hauing a particular commandement of god by word or a rare and extraordinary instinct by the spirit of god his answer is nothing to purpose considering that he wil not I think say that the Midwiues haue any of these two and if they had they doe it not in respect of the former example but onely by reason of the extraordinary ether commandement or motion His example of the Samaritan woman Iohn 4 is friuolous that she should become a publik preacher which had not yet learned her catechism nor was scarce owt of her Christian A. B. C. where it is manifest that she did nothing which belongeth not to euery one that is that we should exhort one another to goe where the knowledg of Christ is to be had so that she did onely as it were towl the bel to draw the Samaritanes to our Sau. Christ that he might preach vnto them Nether doeth his other example of the wemen Math. 28 which preached the resurrection help him For if that may be called a publik ministery it hath an expres commandement of the lord by the Angel. which commandement as oft as Midwiues can shew we wil acknowledg their ministery lawful otherwise the general commandement which we are bound to folow is direct against their preaching which being shewed of me is vnanswered by hym So that here he merely trifleth often saiyng that there is nothing against the baptim by wemen and neuer answering the scriptures alledged wherby it is generally forbiddeÌ„ theÌ„ to deal in these matters To that I concluded of his wordes wemen may preach if there be no man that ether can or wil that vuemen by that meanes haue his licence to preach in diuers places he answereth it needeth not seing the scriptures are red in al places But that is but an escape considering that althowgh they haue a reader yet they haue no preacher reading not being preaching as I haue a shewed And who seeth not that many with vs for want of teaching ly in horrible ignorance of the truth so that by his rule this is the tyme in which wemen may teach openly with vs. But here again he opposeth M. Caluin which saith there is a tyme wherein a woman may speak Yf he mean in her own how 's or otherwhere priuatâ—ly I graunt if publikly in the church vpon an extraordinary calling I graunt that also otherwise I can not graunt it for the reasons before and after alledged And that M. Caluin had no such meaning as he pretendeth appeareth in that he wil at no hand admit baptim by wemen to whome althowgh he oppose Zuinglius yet he sheweth not nor I think is able to shew that he alloweth of baptim by Midwiues The next diuision which sheweth that godly vuemen neuer toke the ministery of the vuord but by extraordinary calling from god approued ether by miracle or some not able yssu saith he is needles as that wherunto he agreeth which is not so For hereby is condemned the baptizing boeth by wemeÌ„ and other priuate persons whatsoeuer as that which hath no such calling and approbation of god The next to it sheweth his pouerty which endeuoring to defend the baptim by wemen was ignorant of the principal hould of that cause and was needfully met with for their sakes whom that might trouble In he next he would insinuate that they may baptiz in the how 's for that S. Paul biddeth them teach in priuat places where if he had made his argument iust and to clasp wel togither he should haue concluded that they owght to teach their howshold in priuate places therefore they owght to baptiz in priuate places and they owght to teach their families ordinarily therefore they owght to baptiz their families ordinarily thus must the argument be cut owt according to his measure and he
holy communion beginning pag. 526. diuis vij of the D. book AMongest diuers reasons browght to proue that the whole body of the church should so much as may be communicate â—n the holy supper togither he cauilleth â—t that alledged owt of S. Paul saying that he blameth those which did contentiously separate them selues whereas the Apostle vnder one kinde noteth al needeles sundring of the members one from another in that holy action That owt of S. Mathew 18 of two or three gathered in Christs name ys answered nether ys it denied but that two or three may communicate yf the other wil not at al onely yt ys said that where the other wil althowgh not so often as is conuenient yet that in such a case the three should for the reasons alledged whereunto he answereth nothing tarry for the rest his next diuision is answered in the 9 diuision which he taketh vp before by rending my book asonder that he might seem able to say somewhat which answer of myne vpon how good ground yt standeth let the reader iudg his reply whereunto is senseles where also his mervailing that I say the tvuelue vuere made Apostles after their first calling argueth his want considering that the ordeyning of them to be Embassadors throwghowt the world which is the vocation of their Apostleship was not vntil after the resurrection That which deceiueth hym is for that he considereth not that yt is the vse of the scripture in speaking of the beginninges of thinges to term them by the names which they had at the tyme of the writing and not which they had when that which they wrote was doen as in the names of Babel and Peleg c. the next requireth no answer In the next he accordeth that by ecclesiastical censures and ciuil punishmentes the rest of the church should be browght to communicate with the three where he manifestly forsaketh the book which leaueth yt free three seasons of the year onely excepted And the truth is yf it be conuenient that yt should be celebrated oftener yt is also meet that there should be punishmentes for the breach of that conueniency his exception against the proof of excommunication for want of doeyng this duty that to cut ovut his soul from the people signifieth to put to death and not to excoÌ„municate vttereth his want considering that the same commandement was giuen to Abraham in the gouernment of his how 's which was the church of god And yet that no ciuil sword was put into his hand ys manifest in that being a priuate man in the common wealth he dwelt in he had no power of lyfe and death But of this matter he may learn further other where His obiections against the Adm. and my allegation of canons ascribed to the Apostles are answered That the owtward vncleannes vnder the law may be easlier auoided then the inward which owght to kepe vs from the communion being so generally spoken is vntrue and refuted by me in the case of procuring the funeral of our friendes to which we are bound whereunto he answereth nothing nether can the vncleannes of lyfe which is priuate and not openly knowen hinder any oneles yt be such as men mean not to amend That weaknes of faith owght to withdraw vs from the communion is a manifest vntruth yt being instituted for the strenghtning of the weaknes thereof The examination of hym self is required not onely in the partaking of the communion but also in hearing of the vuord of god as whether he come with minde to be tawght and to folow or whether he come of curiosity or of custome or to please men and such like As for corruption of iudgment want of instruction in the vse of the sacrament open offenses and al such disorder of life as requireth separation by the churches ceÌ„sures they fal not into this case where is disputed not for what causes men owght to be put from the holy communion but for what causes they may withdraw them selues when they be by common and good policy of the church admitted Therfore al this is but an abusing of the tyme which is browght against that which I said that yf being of the church and able to examin them selues they be not fit for the hearing of the vuord nether are they fit for the receiuing of the coÌ„munioÌ„ whereby also may appear how vnworthily he doeth now the second tyme obiect contraryety with my self so openly refuted by expres wordes As for the reasons which I alledged to confirm this sentence with he once towcheth not whereunto I wil ad the iudgment of the auncient writers that he may learn to blush which not contented to haue reprehended yt here setteth yt in the beginning of his book as a dangerous point and palpable error Chrysostom writeth thus of the supper hovu tariedst thovu behynde I am thovu saist vnvuorthy then art thovu also vnvuorthy of the communication vuhich is in the prayers The like sentence he hath in another of his homilies uÌ„to the people of Antioche Ambrose saith he that is not fit to receiu the bread of the supper dayly is not fit once in a year August speaking of this matter sheweth that yf the synnes be not so great that one should be excoÌ„municated for them that then a man ovught not to separate hym self from the daily medicine of the lords body whereunto ad M. Bucer which disalowing the communion which is by the Minister aÌ„d one other and withal shewing that the rest of the church owght to be driuen vnto yt boeth alledgeth and aloweth that sentence of Chrysostom before rehersed In the next diuisioÌ„ of the cause of the superstitious fear of coming to the coÌ„munion let the reader iudg of coÌ„sidering that of the euil beginninges of lenton fast I haue spoken before and wil not suffer the D. to start away by mouing of other questions To this chapter belongeth the rest of the 15 Tracta where in the pag. 590 first diuision for his saying we read not that wemen receiued the supper he pretendeth M. Caluin and Zuinglius but they excuse not his rashnes For althowgh they haue the same wordes yet they match this cause with others which are necessary and which haue certein proof owt of the scripture althowgh not in expres wordes whereas he matcheth yt with those thinges which are by his own confession indifferent and not necessary giuing thereby to vnderstand that there is no better grownd of the one then of the other which reason being alledged to proue the occasion of triumph which he giuith here vnto the Catabaptistes and Anabaptistes he answereth not The three next diuisioÌ„s are answered Next vnto this foloweth another vnchangeable doctrine as yt lyeth pa. 603 of the D. book where althowgh the Answ dare not opeÌ„ly vndertake the defence of driuing of known papistes vnto the lords supper yet partly in trifling with the proofes browght for the
not occupied in the church ministery were willingly taken for assistance in ciuil iudgmentes which is because they being better acquainted with the law of god then commonly the rest of the tribes were consequently better seen in the iudicials by which the common wealth of the Israelites was gouerned And that al the Leuites were not applied vnto the ministery may appear by the example of a Banaias the high Priests son high Constable or general of the host Before I come to the Ans arguments I desire the reader to obserue that althowgh he hath owt of the auncient writers borowed certein places to iust with those which I haue taken from thence yet owt of the holy scripture whereof he should haue made the base and foundation of his defence he hath browght nothing But let vs see them such as they are Eusebius saith he calleth Constantine as yt were a general Bishop That maketh no more to proue that the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes belonged vnto him then that he calleth hym a Doctor apointed of god to al nations proueth hym to haue bene a publik preacher of the word Rather as he was called a Doctor because that the doctrine taught by the Bishops was maynteyned by his autority not for that he taught him self so he is called the general Bishop for that he caused them to meet in Councel protected them when they were there kept them in peace maynteyned with his princely autority that which was godlyly decreed not for that he determined the matters hym self This may also appear in his epistle to the churches where willing to draw credit vnto the decrees of that Councel he doeth not say that they were his but the Bishops decrees And in deed yt might more iustly be concluded that he was a minister of the word by the one place then by the other that he made ecclesiastical lawes of his own autority considering that the place browght by him is delaied and laid in water by that he calleth him not a Bishop simply but as it vuere a Bishop where as the other place is not so And it is further to be obserued that the word Bishop is taken some tymes generally for any ouerseer and not onely for the church Minister In which respect Constantyne calleth him self a Bishop but putteth a manifest difference betwene his Bishoprik and theirs namely that the church officers were Bishops and ouerseers of thinges vuithin the church and he Bishop or ouerseer of those that vuere vuithovut the church whereby he clearly also establisheth the distinction of the church and common wealth vnder a Christian Prince Hether also may be referred that of Hillary which exhorteth Constans that he would prouide that the gouernours of his prouinces vnder hym should not praesume to take vpon them the iudgment of ecclesiastical causes where also the same autor further affirmeth that the common vuealth matters onely belonged vnto them Likewise that Ambrose saith That Palaces belong vnto the Emperour but the churches vnto the Minister and that he had autority of the commoÌ„ vualles of the city and not ouer holy thinges That of Constantyne and after of Iustinian making lawes touching godlines as against the worship of Images c. is idle considering that it is nothing but an execution of that which is commanded of god and withowt the compas of thinges which fal into the church is consultation For in thinges which he is assured of to be the vnuariable truth of god who douteth but that he not onely may but owght also to mayntein them with his autority Sauing that if there be a general dowt raised what is the law of god therein to the end that the the truth may haue better cours and that the conscience may be prouided for there is herein great caution to be vsed For least that which is godly should be doeÌ„ vngodlily that is to say ignorantly or doutfully and to the end that the autors of error being conuinced may doe les hurt and finally to the end that the punishmeÌ„t of the obstinate may be boeth more iust and les grudged at yt belongeth vnto the ciuil Magistrate to cal as did the godly Emperour CoÌ„stantine a councel of the ministery by whome as by gods interpreters the people may receiu a resolution warranted by substantial groundes owt of hys word Yet so far it is that we suspend vpon the Councels determination the putting in execution of such as he is assured to be the vnchangeable commaundementes of god that boeth before in and after the Councel yea and howsoeuer they determin we esteme that the Prince owght to procure by al godly and conuenient meanes that such lawes of god haue place at the least that the contrary be not suffered not so much as if it might be one onely hower That owt of the Chalcedon councel that the orders there made were by the Emperours autority because they cried long life vnto the Senate and Emperour is vnsufficient For althowgh it was vnmeet that in such graue meetinges there should be vsed such shoutinges as then appeared to haue bene the maner when they liked or misliked any thing which was more fit for stage playes then for such a graue company yet who seeth not that there was cause enowgh why thanckes should be giuen vnto the Emperour for his care his paynes and his charges in calling and confirming yt althowgh nether the iudgment were his nor apperteyned vnto him Now touching the places alledged by me in the first gros ouersight there is none seing there is not a word in that place which enforceth external buildinges For in steed of that which is turned buildinges the greek hath vuorkes or affaiers also for that of selling the buildinges there is no such thing in the greek nether as I think owght to be For the place which no dowt is corrupt in Eusebius may be restored owt of Theodoret that reporteth the same epistle Howbeit whether it be vnderstood of the owtward or inward buildinges I wil not striue and I rather think that it is of the owâ—ward then otherwise considering that that seemeth to be more simple To the second where the Emperour confesseth the Bishops matters not to pertayn to him he answereth that the Emperour of modesty refused the determination But what modesty is yt to say that which is vntrue or what modesty to affirm that yt belongeth not to hym which is by yow his office and committed to him of god especially vnto his subiectes For it might haue more colour if yow had said that it were modesty for a Bishop to say that to administer the word and sacramentes belong not to hym but vnto the Prince Beside that yf he would haue shewed forth modesty he would haue rather said that he was not worthy then to say that it vuas not lavuful for him to doe yt To that that the Emperour vuould not determin of Arius heresy but committed
he citeth owt of Saunders yt appeareth that he doeth not subiect them vnto the Magistrate in respect of their priesthood Owt of Harding he nether citeth wordes nor quoteth place which his burning desire of coupling vs with the papistes would not haue passed if it could haue bene found And that the reader may better know his great vnfaithfulnes in so weighty a matter let him take Hardings own wordes to the Bishop which are these Yovu teach princes to vse violence against Priestes as thovugh their fautes could not be redressed by the Prelates of the cleargy And after yt is not conuenient that the king should cal Priestes before hym to his ovun seat of iudgment I assigned also another difference that vuhere the papistes vuil haue the Prince execute vuhatsoeuer they conclude be yt good or bad vue say that if there be no lavuful ministery as in the ruinous decayes of religion that then the Prince ovught to set order And if vuhen there is a lavuful ministery it shal agree of any vnlavuful thing that the Prince ovught to stay yt and to driue them to that vuhich is lavuful This difference althowgh he could not deny and althowgh by it we are sundred from the papistes as far as he is frō him that said the kyng of Persia might doe vuhat he lusted yet he continueth his former slaunder that we shake handes with the papistes and feareth not stil to say that he seeth not wherein in this article we differ from them But not able to deny this difference he cauilleth at yt asking first why the prince owght rather to determin of ecclesiastical causes when there is no lawful ministery thē whē there is forsooth because the Magistrate is bound to see the seruice of god maynteined in his dominion which when yt can not be by the meanes which god hath appointed ordinary yet for as much as his bond stil remayneth the next is that yt be doen as nerely vnto that order as may be vntil such tyme which owght to be with al possible speed as the standing and set order be established I say as nere as may be vnto the order prescribed of god least any should think that because that order can not be precisely kept he were by and by at liberty to set vp clean another order which should seem best to hym neglecting vpon occasion of the vnability of obseruing al the obseruation of those thinges which may be obserued For herein owght to be folowed the example of the godly learned Priest Abimelech which admitted Dauid and his company to the participation of the shew bread that was otherwise lawful for the Priests onely to eat of who althowgh to kepe charity which is the end of the law he brake so much of the ceremonye as the present necessity did require yet he ceased not therefore to be careful of the obseruation of the rest as appeareth in that he asked vuhether they had absteyned from the company of their vuiues Again yt is known that the Priestes and Prophetes haue extraordinarily meddled with ciuil affaires in confused tymes wil he therfore say that this power is ordinarily annexed vnto the Bishops office The cases I graunt are not altogither like yet to his question which supposeth that there is no cause why the Magistrate should not iudg of church matters aswel when there is a lawful ministery as when there is none this may serue for part of an answer Moreouer as in siknes there is another diet then in health so the church in her greuous diseas hath an other kinde of gouernment then that which is ordinary and vsed in a good constitution of her body which thing being said of the ruinous estate of the church is to be vnderstood also of her beginninges and as yt were infancy where ether there was no church before or hauing bene yt was rased from the foundations Yf this content him not let him answer me why the Prince must of necessity commit these matters to the ministery when it is learned and godly rather then when yt is otherwise if at the least he wil now at the last haue this the meaning of this broken english And of his answer to this question wil easely rise an answer to his But some sharper Aduersary might here haue obiected that Moses Dauid and Salomō being Princes in the moste florishing estate of the church did notwithstanding make church orders whereunto I answer that they did so partly for that they were not kinges onely and Princes but also Prophetes of god partly for that they had special and expres direction therto from god by the prophete whereby they did euen those thinges in the church which withowt such special reuelation was not lawful for the Priestes thē selues to haue doē And althowgh the truth of this answer be apparant yet that it may haue the more autority especially with the D. that tasteth nothing withowt this sauce he may vnderstand that it is M. Caluins answer of Moses and Dauid and that in this present cause now debated His other quarrel against this answer is that if a lawful ministery determining some thing vnlawful wil not be browght to that which is iust that then the Prince must haue ether that which they wil or no religiō As thowgh such a ministery were a lawful ministery that is obstinate or as if this obstinacy being general or for the moste part the state is not here ruinous so that the Prince may after due meanes assaied to bring them home procure that other be put in their places we herby appeareth that the remedy of this inconuenience which he saith he can not see was comprehended in the first part of the second difference betwene ours and the Papists iudgment But if for that a lawful ministery is subiect to error or doeth er in the decision of ecclesiastical causes he think that yt should not therefore handle these matters he may as wel take from them the preaching of the word considering that an error may as wel be found in the pulpit as in the Councel how 's And look what remedy the Magistrate hath against a ministery teaching falsly or inconueniently in the pulpit the same hath he against yt determining so in Councel And to make the partition wal betwene the papistes and vs in this question one cubite higher that those which wil not open their eys to see it may feel yt in not onely stumbling but running also their heades against yt I wil ad this muche that in ascribing vnto the ministery the decision of matters in controuersy and the making of church ceremonies our meaning is not vtterly to seclude the Magistrate For when experience teacheth vs that often tymes a simple man and as the prouerb saith the Gardener hath spoken to good purpose but especially when in the holy scripture the ould Testament and the nue and thirdly when in the ecclesiastical writers yt is found that there haue bene
the two next chapters be answered The 6 chapter is of the ceremonies in the Solemnization of mariage page 723. where for the mayntenance of the ring with the fond ceremonies thereof and of the vncomely wordes of worshipping with the body taken onely from popery there is likewise nothing worth answer that of the deuising of nw signes to teach by being before confuted THE VII CHAPTER OF THE second part of this Tractate to vuching the ceremonies in burial pag. 727. HOw needful my preface was to preuent vurāglers let the reader iudg Likewise of the reasons the Adm. vseth which he is not affraid not onely to deny to be good but to be any at al. How little Tertullians autority owght to prevail in establishing funeral prayers hereof yt may be knowen not onely that he would thrust diuers fond ceremonies vpon the church as necessary but for that in another book this oblation as he termeth yt for the dead he maketh of the like necessity with those that are commanded in the scripture Vuhether yt mayntein in the mindes of the ignorant an opinion of praying for the dead must be in the readers iudgment putting hym in minde that yf notwithstanding the ordinary prayers so oft red there be some so ignorant to think that Morning and Euening prayer is nothing but the popish Mattins and Euen song in English how much more wil they iudg the same of the funeral prayers which are not so ordinary That there were no such prayers in the Apostles tyme is shewed by a manifest reason of the scripture which setting forth the smalest matters in Burial vuould not haue houlden bak this being so vueighty by which circumstance his exception of negatiue argumentes in autority being ouerthrown he hath nothing to answer And beside that he is neuer able to proue that al the churches vsed yt yt is before shewed what truth Augustins sentence is of which would make al Apostolical that is generally obserued That the Apostles example owght here to haue preuailed is shewed diuis 6 which is that yf funeral sermons had bene so fit as is pretended the Apostles vuould neuer haue lost such an opportunity of preaching whereunto he answereth not Hether also serueth that forsomuch as there vuas no prescript form of funeral prayers vnder the lavu yt is not meet there should be any novu which reason beside an vnmodest triūph receiueth no more answer thē the other where he owght to learn that of al other yt is moste effectual First for that a multitude of ceremonies was more agreable to the estate of the people of god vnder the law then yt is now vnder the gospel Then for that by how much more they had not so clear sight of the resurrection of the dead as we by so much they had more need of these thinges then we To that that the Minister hauing othervuise necessary dutyes as many as he can turn hym to hath notvuithstanding by this meanes anue charge laid vpon hym he answereth yt is no charge but his dutye to preach and to pray which is vntrue For althowgh yt be his duty to doe boeth yet yt is not his dutye to doe them then yf yt be then he must of necessity doe yt nether can this ceremony be abolished and so the Ministers in other reformed churches which doe yt not are thereby condemned where he asketh why he should not doe this aswel as his own busines verely amōgest other reasons this also is one that to the end he may haue some tyme for his own busines the church owght not to charge hym with thinges which are not necessary To that that mourning apparel prouoketh sometyme immoderate sorovu he answereth that so we should not approch the bed nor graue of the dead which is insufficient For yt is one case of thinges dutiful and commanded or whereof we haue great vse and another of those which are not so In the one gods vocation is warrant enowgh against al inconueniences which is not so in those which we take vp of our selues And yt maketh against hym For hauing by reason of our vocation meanes enow to strike the wound of sorow so deep into vs as is needful we owght not to seek others of our own brayn The exāples whereby this was set forth he answereth not And hereof the reader may see also that profitable ceremonies in thinges indifferent may be maynteyned althowgh this fal As for that he saith that Cyprian and Augustine do not so much condemn mourning apparel as immoderate sorow yf they condemn yt at al yt is enowgh to cōuince his extreme bouldnes in al ledging an antiquity for hym which maketh against hym But yf he would thereby insinuat that they misliked not of this ceremony these be their wordes let mē iudg of his dealing vue ovught not saith Cyprian to take blak garments vuhen the faithful vuhich are deceased haue receyued vuhite apparel nether must vue giue occasion that the heathen should iustly blame vs that vue lament those as lost vuhich vue affirm to liue Concerning Augustine he writeth thus By vuhat reason should vue dy blak garmentes for the dead oneles yt be that vue vuould in ioyning them vuith our lamentation declare thereby that the deceased vuere very infidels and miserable These are my brethren vnmeet they be straunge they are vnlavuful And if they vuere not vnlavuful yet they are vndecent As for the continuance of yt with any allowance further then from the tyme of the heresy of the papistes which be not the church of god he sheweth not The rest in this diuision is not worth the naming The first argument against the inconuenience of funeral sermons hath the same mayntenance with the first of the third diuision To the next reason of the sodein and consequently for the most part negligent preaching he opposeth as a contrariety with my self that I preferred a simple sermon made euery day to that which is made onely once in a moneth which is onely to mispend the tyme For althowgh I preferred yt to the other yet I approued not that one onely Minister except he haue rare giftes should preach euery day why he can not haue sufficient warning is manifest yf he refuse he is thereby loden with displeasure of his parishoners in that he doeth not as other which is hurtful to his ordinary ministery To the reason of acceptation of persons in that sermons at the burial of the rich nether be nor are able to be made at the burial of the poor he answereth that yt is alone as if the Minister not able to preach euery day should not therefore preach once a weke Vuhich is vntrue considering that his ordinary ministery is commanded of god where this is but a deuise of men and considering that in the ordinary preaching there is no acceptation of persons whether yt be doen once or often in a week so that althowgh preaching
commandement of the lord owght not to be laid aside for a simple inconuenience or vncomelines of a thing which in the own nature is indifferent The offence in occasioning the weak to fal and the wicked to be cōfirmed in their wickednes is one of the fowlest spottes in the surplice and which of al other can make yt moste detestable in the eyes of a godly Minister And such it is in dede that yf it were balanced with any thing left free vnto vs of the lord as in the choise of meates and drinkes yt would easely weigh yt down But when it is laid in the skoles with the preaching of the word of god which is so necessary for hym that is called thereunto that a wo hangeth on his head if he doe not preach yt yt is of les importance then for the refusal of yt we should let goe so necessary a duty As for that which is vttered against the offence yt is as the rest of this disputation to shew how incōueniently such thinges are established not that they may not in any respect be born with And my reply to the place of the Corinth 1. 8. against his answer which saith that in thinges indifferent cōmāded by the Magistrate we owght not to haue such regard vnto the offēce of the weak owght not to be drawen further then I alledged yt that is in applying our selues to our brethren so that we leau not vndoen that which the lord hath absolutely cōmanded where that is not boeth in vse of these indifferent thinges and absteyning from them we are so straitly bound to haue regard vnto the weak brother as no Magistrate is able to lose the knot of that bond But where offences can not otherwise be redemed thē by leauing that vndoē which the lord hym self hath not left free vnto vs but cast a yoke of necessary seruice vpon vs there the case is otherwise for if the Prince vpon declaration of the incōuenience of such ceremonies and hūble sute for the releas of them wil lose nothing of the cord of this seruitude for my part I see no better way thē with admonitiō of the weak that they be not offended and prayer to god to strenghthen them thereunto to kepe on the cours of feeding the flok committed ynto him This is in few wordes my simple iudgmēt of the matter of this apparel and such like ceremonies peraduenture needful to be here propounded not so much for their sakes which mislike yt which I suppose for the moste part to be of that iudgment as for them which are born in hand that there is no other cause why the Ministers haue left their flockes then for that they would not wear this apparel Vuherein beside other matters of far greater weight euen in this case of ceremonies the yoke which is laid vpon their neckes is not onely to vse them but to subscribe vnto them as vnto good and conuenient orders where yt is not onely not lawful to subscribe thē but requisite that the Minister should as occasiō serueth teach the incōmodity of thē And alt nowgh I can remember nothing in ether of my bookes cōtrary vnto this iudgment yet if there be any thing that may be drawē against yt yt is meet that yt fal that the truth may haue the vpperhand vnles a better iudgment then this can be shewed which I wil willingly learn at his feet that can teach yt The next belongeth onely to the readers iudgment the last is answered THE IX CHAPTER OF THE second part of thys Treatis of the name of Priest page 721. THat yt skilleth by what names thinges especially ecclesiastical be called I haue a shewed To the vnmeetnes of calling a Minister vuith vs Priest considering that our translations of the byble haue vsually noted the sacrificing Priests by that name he opposeth the auncient writers which vsed the word of Sacerdos and Presbyter for al one But their abuse herein may easely appear in that in this to great liberty of speach they also vsed to cal the holy supper of the lord a sacrifice and the Communion table an altar yf he alow of one he must also of the other But yf these kinde of speaches haue giuen occasion of falling vnto many then yt is manifest that this defens is nawght For that they called the Ministers of the gospel by the same word which is proper to sacrificers onely appeareth otherwhere That the best of English writers in our dayes vse yt is more excusable in that they doe yt of constraint partly in translating the elder writers which spake so partly for that they had to doe with aduersaryes which vsed that language to whome that yt might be better vnderstood which was written they applyed them selues Of his want which he vttereth in this behalf page 785 let the reader iudg Thus what matter soeuer is in controuersy ether perteyning to the discipline or ceremonies of the church is answered in other by matters yt is enowgh once to haue noted the D. insufficiency or other misbehauiour and so to commit them to the readers iudgment Althowgh the learned know what a colowrable defens I might bring owt of the diuers iudgmēts of writers for that I sayd the vuriter of the Apocalyps concealed his name yet that I pas not my faut withowt confession as the D. vseth I confes a faut which I also amended in the second aedition Likewise in that I charged hym with leauing owt some part of his book albeit yt may be trw yet towching the places which I ment I perceiue that there is sum iniury doen to hym For not fineding thē where I looked for them and where they owght of most right to haue bene I found them notwithstanding transported to other places His answers in the end of the book to the moste plain and clear testimonyes of the writers in our age concerning the matters in controuersy I wil not towch For what remedy against hym which denieth that the snow ys white or what fear is there of being deceiued by hym which cometh in to the stage without a visard And verely the son of those places is such that yt would not suffer hym to haue so much as a little peinting to disguise hym self with insomuch that I would desire the reader vpon the shameful bouldnes which he vseth in that part to esteme of his fidelity and trust in the rest of his book Beside that for the moste part the same matters by other sentences in the same writers haue bene in this work confirmed Mat. 21. 44. ◠Pet. 2. 8 Euribiades 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diuis◠pag. 749. a LuK. 9. 60. 61. Diuis 2. pag. 750. a 752. D. 4. 757. 761. D. 5. 762. D. 7. 765. D. 3. 773. D. 15. 783. b 757. Diuis 3. pa. 751. c LuK. 12. 24. d Tra. 6. p. 404. a Ioh. 8. 1◠b 4. li. Inst. 11. cap. 12. sect Pigg lib. 5. hierarh ca. 16. 4.