should teach vs this truth sufficiently if we were not wilfully blinded that when any church or congregation is destitute of a pastor it were better to place there one able person than to make two or three hundred or mo vnable fellowes and they for want of liuing to runne stragling the countries ouer without any liuing or maintenance at all being glad of any thing For as the old saieng is Hungrie dogs eate sluttish puddings Theod. What order would you haue obserued in this Amphil. Me thinke this were a verie good order That euerie church or congregation being destitute of a pastor should present to the bishops and others to whom it dooth appertaine one or two three or foure able persons or mo or lesse as they conueniently can whose liues and conuersations they haue had sufficient triall of whose soundnesse in religion integritie of life and godly zeale to the truth they are not ignorant of Then the bishops and others to whom it doth apperteine to examine and trie them thoroughly for their sufficiencie in learning soundnesse in doctrine and dexteritie in teaching and finding them furnished with sufficient gifts for such an honorable calling to admit them to lay their hands vppon them and to send them foorth the chiefest of them to that congregation or church so destitute Which order if it were strictly obserued and kept as it ought to be then should not so manie run abroad in the countries to seeke liuings then should not churches bee pestered with insufficient ministers Then should not the bishops be so deceiued in manie as they be And no maruell For how should the bishop choose but be deceiued in him whom he neuer sawe before whose conuersation he knoweth not whose disposition hee is ignorant of and whose qualities and properties in generall he suspecteth not Whereas if this order were established that euerie church destitute of a pastor should present certeine able men whose conuersation and integritie of life in euerie respect they perfectly knowe for the whole church is not likely to erre in iudging of their conuersations who haue béene either altogither or for the most part conuersant amongst them then as I say should not the bishop be deceiued in any nor yet any church scandalized with the wicked liues of their pastors or rather depastors as they be For now it is thought sufficient for the certeintie of his conuersation if he either haue letters dimissorie from one bishop to another whereas they little or nothing knowe the conuersation of the man or else letters commendatorie from any gentleman or other especially if they be of any reputation If he can get these things he is likely to spéede I warrant him Which thing is scarce well in my iudgement For you knowe one priuate man or two or thrée or foure may peraduerture either write vpon affection or else bee corrupted with bribes or gifts whereas the whole church cannot nor would not Therefore is the other the surer way Theod. How prooue you that the churches that are destitute of a pastor ought to present him whom they would haue admitted to the bishop and not the bishop to intrude vpon the church whom he will Amphil. In the first chapter of the Actes of the apostles before cited we read that after the defection of Iudas the traitour the apostle Peter knowing it necessarie that one shoulde be chosen in his place to giue testimonie and witnesse of the resurrection and ascension of Christ Iesus commanded the church to present one or two or mo as they thought good that hee with his fellowe brethren might confirme and allow them And therevppon saith the text they chose two to wit Matthias and Ioseph surnamed Bersabas And the church hauing presented them they were elected confirmed and allowed of the apostles and elders Also in the foresaide sixt chapter of the Acts of the apostles when the deacons whose office was to make collections for the poore and to sée the same bestowed vpon them without fraud or deceit were to be chosen the text saith that the apostles desired the church to choose foorth seuen men from amongst them of honest report ful of the holie Ghost which they might appoint to that businesse By all which reasons appereth that the church ought to present him or them whom they would haue to be admitted and not that the bishop ought to present to allow or to intrude him vpon the church at his pleasure against the will thereof Theod. Why would you not haue pastors to be thrust vpon the churches whether the churches will or not Amphil. Bicause it is manifest that no church will so willingly receiue nor yet so louingly imbrace him that is intruded vpoÌ„ them against their wils as they will doe him that they like of choose and allow of themselues And if the churches beare not a singular loue fauour good will and affection to their pastor it is vnpossible that they should heare him or learne of him with profit to their soules And if they heare him not Auide sitienter as we say Greedily and thirstily thereby to profit then shal they perish euerlastingly in that the word of God is the ordinarie meane appointed by the diuine maiestie And therefore in conclusion if there be not a mutual amitie loue and affection betwixt the pastor and his flocke and if that the one lâ—ue not the other as themselues it is not to be looked for that either the one shall teach or the other receiue any thing to their soules health but rather the cleane contrarie Theod. I pray you what is your iudgement in this What if a man be once lawfully called into the ministerie may he euer vpon anie occasion whatsoeuer leaue off the same function and applie himselfe to secular affaires Amphil. There is a twofold calling The one a diuine calling immediately from God the other a humane calling immediately from and by man Now he that hath the first diuine calling his conscience suggesting the same vnto him and the spirit of God certifieng his spirit of the certeintie thereof being furnished with gifts and graces necessarie for such a high function and office as God calleth none but he indueth them first with gifts and graces necessarie for their calling and afterwards is lawfully called of man according to the prescript of Gods word hauing a flocke appointed him wherevpon to attend this man may not nor ought not at any hand to giue ouer his calling but to perseuere in the same to the end for that he hath both the diuine and humane callings being furnished with all gifts and graces necessarie in some measure for the discharge of his high function and calling Yet notwithstanding in time of extreame persecution when Gods truth is persecuted and his glorie defaced if he have not wherewithall to maintaine his estate otherwise he may for the time giue himselfe to manuall occupations and corporall exercises in the affaires of the worlde as we sée the apostles
But for that he is not onely a false prophet and a traitor to the truth that teacheth false doctrine but as well he that knoweth the truth and either for feare of death or desire of life wil not expresse the same to the world And for that not onely the author of any euill or mischiefe is giltie of offence before God But also he that might vy discouerie therof preuent the same and yet either will not or for feare of death dares not And for that as the olde prouerbe saith Qui â—acet consentire videtur he that concealeth the truth seemeth to consent to errors for these and the like causes I will laye downe vnto you some such corruptions and abuses as seeme to be inormous and stande in neede of reformation omitting in the meane time to speake perticularly of all for that they be innumerable vntill I see how these fewe will be brouked of them For it is a point of good physicke you knowe to sée how the former meate receiued into the stomacke will be digested and concocted before we receiue anye more into the same Theod. You say very well Giue me leaue then by your patience to aske you such questions as I thinke conuenient for my further instruction that by your good means I knowing the truth may praise God in you and also haue iust occasion to giue you thanks for the same Theod. Aske what you thinke good in Gods â—ame and I will doe the best that I can to resolue you in any thing that you shall demand Theod. Then this shal be my first demand Be the churches congregations assemblies there distincted into particulars as into parishes and precincts one exempt from another or are they dispersed here and there abroad without any order exemption or limitation of place at all Amphil. Euerie particular church congregation assemblie or conuenticle is diuided one from another and distincted into parishes and preâ—incts which seuerall precincts and parishes are so circumâ—ired and limited about with bounds and marks as euerie one is knowne of what parish he is and vnder whose charge he liueth So that euerie shepheard knoweth his flocke euerie pastor his shéepe And againâ— euerie flocke knoweth his shepheard and euerie shéepe his pastor verie orderlie and well in my simple iudgement Theod. Doe you allow then of this partition of churches and of one particular congregation from another Amphil. Yea trulie It is not amisse but a verie good order for thereby euerie pastor doth knowe his owne flocke euery shepheard his owne shéepe which without this diuision could not be Besides that we read that euen in the apostles daies who writ to particular churches themselues as to the Rom. Corint Thes. Phil c. in the daies of Christ in the times of the prophets before Christ churches assemblies and congregations were euer distincted one from another diuided into seueral flocks companies and charges So that although they had not the name of this word parish amongst them yet had the thing ment thereby in effect Theod. Then it followeth by your reason that there are infinite churches in Dnalgne and I haue learned out of the book of God that there is but one true church and faithful spouse of Christ vpon the earth How reconcile you these two places Amphil. Uerie well For although there be infinite particular churches congregations and assemblies in the world yet doe they all make but one true church of God which being diuided in time and place is notwithstanding one church before God being meÌ„bers of the mystical body of Christ Iesus felow members one of another so as they can neuer be diuided neither froÌ„ themselues nor froÌ„ their head Christ. Theod. Who doe you constitute the head of the vniuersall church of Christ vppon earth Christ Iesus the pope or the prince Amphil. Christ Iesus whose the bodie is must néeds â—e is the onely true head of the vniuersall church Then next vnder him euerie christian prince in his kingdom And as for the pope he is head ouer the malignant church the church of the diuel and not of Christ Iesus No he is so far from being head ouer the vniuersal church of Christ that he is no true member of the same but rather the childe of perdition the first borne of satan a diuell incarnate and that man of sin euen Antichrist himselfe that must be destroied with the breath of Gods mouth Theod. By whom be these particular churches and congregatious gouerned and ruled Amphil. By bishops pastors and other inferiour officers Theod. Do you shut out the prince then fâ—ont gouerning the church Amphil. No God forbid For take awayâ— Brachium seculare The lawfull power and gouernement of the temporal magistrate from the regiment of the church and ouerthrow the church altogither And yet notwithstanding the necessitie hereof the dooting anabaptists and brainesicke papists haue most deuilishly denied the same The anabaptists denie most absurdly the authoritie of the magistrate altogither The papists seing themselues conuinced by the manifest worde of GOD denye not their authority absolutely but that their authority extendeth to the gouernement of the church forsooth they vtterly denie hereby exempting themselues and plucking away their neckes from vnder the yooke of christian obedience due vnto migistrates contrarie to the expresse word of our sauiour Christ and his apostles who saith Omnis anima subdita sit potestatibus supereminentibus Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but of God And therefore they are to be obeyed as the ministers of God of all whatsoeuer Theod. Well than I gather thus much that euery king prince or potentate is supreame head next vnder God ouer the church of GOD dispersed through his kingdomes and dominions is not this true Amphil Uerie true And therefore that antichrist of Rome hath plaide the traitor a long while both to Christ Iesus and all christian kings in arrogating and vsurping to be supreame head ouer all the world Whereas indeed he being a greasie priest smered prelate hath no more authority than other oiled shauelings haue nor so much neither and yet that authoritie is but ouer the maligant church of antichrist and not of Christ Iesus I beseech the Lord therefore to breake of that power to grind in peces that stumbling blocke of offence and to wipe off the heads of that monstrous hidra so as neuer any mo may growe thereof againe Theod. Seeing you say that euerie prince is supreame head ouer the church of God within his dominions what authoritie therfore assign you to the prince to execute in the church Amphil. It is the office and dutie of a prince not only to see elected sent forth called good able sufficient pastours for the instruction of the church but also to see that good orders constitutions rites be established and duely performed that the worde be preached the sacraments truely ministred excommunication discipline and
and paines haue finished the same for the glorie of GOD and benefit of their country But had euery one tasted of the fauourable acceptation of their patrones to whose tuition they commend their labours as wel as I haue of your good Lordships not onely acceptation but also most bountifull remuneration they should not neede to feare any refusall of their faithfull good wils in exhibiting good works vnto their protection and defense Which thing though I can neuer sufficiently in effect regraciate yet in affect I will not faile Christ willing to the end of my life faithfully to supply And truly not without great cause am I bound so to doe and not onely I but euen all that in any respect haue to deale with your honorable Lordship For what is the common bruit noised of your Honour Truly this That your Lordship for gentlenesse and affabilitie whereof I haue tasted to my singular comfort is surpassing any in good conscience mercie and compassion inferiour to none in noble prowesse valiancie magnanimitie comparable with the best In wisedome and vnderstanding singular in zeale to the truth and christian religion famous in defending of equitie and iustice renowmed Finally in all kind of vertue equall with any so as I will not feare to call your good Lordship a perfect patterne of true nobilitie in all respects Thus hauing rather as the peinter doth to draw the lineaments of your Lordships vertues with my rude pensill than to display the liuely proport on of the whole bodie thereof which is vnpossible I will surcease the same For if I should take vpon me to discipher foorth the whole bodie of your Lordships deserued commendations I should rather not knowe where to end than where to begin But least I might seeme to aggrauate your sacred eares occupied with grauer and sager matters than these I will draw to an end most humbly beseeching your good Lordship to receiue this little treatise into your Honors patronage with like plausible alacritte as your Honor receiued my former dedication And not only to receiue the same into your Lordships protection but also to remaine the iust defender thereof against the filthie crew of flowting Momus and railing Zoilus with their complices of bragging Thrasos and wrangling Phormions to whom as the Greeke prouerbe saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is easier to carp to find fault with than to imitate or amend And thus crauing pardon at your good Lordships hand for this my bold attempt I most humbly take my leaue committing your Honor with my good Ladie your wife and all the rest of your honorable progenie and aliance to the tuition and protection of the blessed God who keepe and preserue the same in his faith feare and loue all the daies of your life with increase of much honour and eternall beatitude in the heauens by Iesus Christ. Your Honors most humble and Obedient to command Phillip Stubbes The Author to the gentle Reader I Am constrained gentle reader before I go any further to make this request vnto thee That wheresoeuer thou shalt chance in the reading of this little treatise to finde any faults or escapes either in the print or in the matter as there be too many thou wilt either friendly beare with them or else curteously amend them with thy penne And if it be so that any position or assumption in any part of my boke doe seeme strange vnto thee as manye things may doe peraduenture at the first blush especially being vttered in these dainty daies that thou wilt of thy friendly curtesie and zeale which thou bearest to the truth to the glorie of God to good letters and to the edification of the church of GOD either expunge them with thy penne qualifie them with the oile of thy fauorable iudgement or else at the least so to construe interpret them as they both may stand with the truth with the time and with the minde good meaning and intent of the author whose minde was I call heauen and earth to witnesse to profit all and to offend none And therefore if any bee offended at any thing in this booke it is Scandalum acceptum non datum Offense taken not giuen For the auoiding whereof God is my iudge who knoweth the secrets of all harts I haue abstained from some things which I ought to haue spoken of and othersome which I haue spoken of I haue so qualified that I may seeme rather to beare with the corruption of the time than the truth of the cause aud rather to loue any thing better than schismes dissentions in the church of GOD about matters of small importance Therefore good Reader in christian charitie I beseech thee to respect my simple meaning which was to set foorth the glorie of Christ Iesus and the truth of his word to the edifieng of his militant church vpon the earth and withall to consider the marke that I shoot at namelie to insinuate the truth and to weede out all corruptions c. the end and purpose of my drift and to defend this little booke against flouting Momus bragging Thrasos and wrangling Phormions Quibus omnia bona odio habentur to whom al good things are had in contempt Thus I commit thee to God most Christian reader and to the power of his might who blesse thee with all graces spirituall and corporall in this life that long maist thou read and much maist thou profit and in the end grant thee eternall life in the heauens thy inheritance purchased with the bodie of Christ Iesus to whom be praise glorie honour and dominion in all congregations for euer Amen Thine to is power in the Lord to command Phillip Stubbes I. S in commendation of the Author and his booke THe state of these vnhappie daies alas lament we may Sith that the same so fraughted are with wickednes ech way O England deere my natiue soile I sorie am for thee For that thou wilt not leaue thy sinne and eke repentant bee But day by day from naught to worse thou daily dost proceed Both temporaltie and clergie they to worke sinne haue decreed Hast thou forgot there is a God that wickednesse doth hate And who will one day punish it in ech degree and state And dost thou not remember well the dangers manifold Wherein of late thou stoodest alas more than can well be told And hast tbou also cleane forgot and out of mind let fall How that the goodnes of thy God deliuerd thee from all Praise him therefore with hart and voice shew not thy selfe vnkinde And let not these his mercies great fall out of gratefull minde His iudgements great are towards thee his mercies are much more And all to allure thee from thy sinne his name be praisd therefore Let either thone or thother then mooue thee to leaue thy sinne Then God to powre his blessings store vpon thee shall not linne Read ouer then this little booke and that with single eie And thou the state
ecclesiasticall censures orderly executed to the honor of God and benefit of his church But if it be said that these thinges are to bee executed of the ecclesiasticall persons onely I answere true it is but if the ecclesiasticall magistrate be negligent secure slouthfull and carelesse about the execution hereof as who seeth not some be than ought the prince to shew his authoritie in commanding and inioining them to doe their office Besides this it is the office of the prince to see all kind of sinne as well in the church men themselues as in all others of the church seuerely punished And though I grant the prince to haue the soueraigntie and primacie ouer the church of GOD within his dominions yet my meaning is not that it is lawfull for the prince to preach the word to minister the sacramentes or to execute the sentence of excommunication and other ecclesiasticall discipline and censures of the church but as before to see them done of them to whom it apperteineth For saith the apostle nemo sumat sibi honorem nisi qui legittime vocatus fuerit vt fuit Aaron And againe vnusquisque in ea vocatione qua vocatus est maneat apud deum But in times past the papists bare the worlde in hande that no temporall power whatsoeuer coulde nor ought not to meddle wyth the clergie and therefore made they vassals of most christian Princes Yea that pernicious antichrist of Rome in those daies of ignorance hath not béene ashamed to make Kings Queenes Emperours Dukes Lords and all other how honorable or noble soeuer his lackeis his pages his horsekeepers and compelled them to hold his stirups to leade his horse and to prostrate themselues before him whilest he trod vpon their neckes But God be praised this great antichrist is discouered to all the world and his shame so laid open as euery childe iustlie laugheth him to scorne Theod. You said before that the churches there were gouerned by bishops and pastors how by them Amphil. The bishops are graue ancient and fatherlie men of great grauitie learning and iudgement for the most part constituted by the Prince ouer a whole country or prouince which they call their dioces These graue fathers hauing authoritie aboue all other of the ministerie in their dioces do substitute vnder them in euerie particular church a minister or ministers according to the necessitie of the same And thus doeth euery bishoppe in hys owne dioces thorow out the whole realme So that no church how small soeuer but it hath the truth of Gods word and of his sacraments truly deliuered vnto it Theod. Are those preaching prelates that the bishops do place in euerie congregation or else reading ministers Amphil. It were to be wished that all were preaching prelates and not reading ministers only if it could be brought to passe but though all be not preachers yet the most part be God be praised therefore Theod. Be any readers onlie and not preachers that is a great abuse For I am persuaded that he that cannot preach ought not to supplie a place in the church of God to read onlie how say you Amphil. It is no good reason to say bicause all ought to be preachers that therefore readers are not necessarie But indeed I am of this iudgement with you that whoso can but read onelie and neither is able to interpret preach expound nor explane the scriptures nor yet to refell and conuince the aduersarie nor to deliuer the true sense and meaning of the scriptures ought not to occupie a place in the church of God as the pastor thereof For God commandeth that the pastors be learned saieng Labia sacerdotum custodiant voritatem ediscant populi verbum dei ex ore eorum Let the lips of the priests preserue knowledge and let the people learne the truth out of their mouthes And therefore those that haue not this dexteritie in handling the worde of God they are not sent of God neither are they Christs vicegerents or pastors to instruct his flocke To such the Lord saith They rule but not by me they run but I sent them not they crie thus saith the Lord whereas hee neuer spake it These are those woll shepheards and dumbe dogs of whom speaketh the prophet that are not able to barke against sinne And therefore I beseech the Lord to remooue them and place able and sufficient pastors ouer his church that GOD may be glorified and the church edified in the truth Theod. Bare reading I must néeds say is bare féeding but what then Better it is to haue bare feeding than none at all Amphil. Uerie true And therefore are not they more scrupulous than they ought more curious than néedes and more precise than wise that bicause they cannot haue preaching in euerie church doe therefore contemne reeding as not necessarie This is as though a man should despise meane fare bicause he cannot come by better whereas I thinke it is better to haue meane fare then none at all or as though a man bicause he cannot come by the carnell at the first will therefore caâ— awaie both the nut and the carnell It were good as saith the apostle that all could prophesie that is that all could preach and expound the truth but bicause that al haue not the gift is therfore reading naught And therefore a sort of nouatians lately sprong vp haue greatly faulted herein in that they hold that no reading ministers only ought to be permitted in the church of God as though as I say because a man can not haue daintie fare therefore it is good to haue none at all But to be plaine as I will not defende a dumbe reading ministerie only so I will not condemne it for necessities sake when otherwise euery place cannot be sufficiently furnished at the first with good and sufficient men as it ought Theod. But it is thought that there are inow able men in the vniuersities and elsewhere to furnish euery particular church with a preaching minister Amphil. Truely I thinke there are so if they were sought for preferred but alas those that are learned indeed they are not sought for nor promoted but the vnlearned for the most part somtimes by frendship somtime by mony for they pay wel for their orders I heare say and somtimes by gifts I dare not say bribes are intâ—uded This maketh manie a good schooler to languish and discourageth not a fewe from goyng to their bookes Whereby learning greatlie decaieth and barbarisme I feare me will ouerflow the realme if spéedie remedie be not had herein Theod. As farre as I can gather by your speeches there is both a reading and a preaching ministerie whether doe you prefer before the other Amphil. I preferre the preaching ministerie before a reading ministerie only and yet the reading ministerie if the other can not be had is not therefore euill or not necessarie Theod. But tell me this If there might a preaching ministerie be gotten ought not the reading
true repentance for his sinnes to fore committed liue for euer in ioye both of body soule whereas if exhortations had not bin he might happily haue died irrepentant or vtterly desperate to his euerlasting destruction for euer Yea it is coÌ„monly seene that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus all the daies of their life before yet at the last howre they are soone recouered Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein but warely and carefully to watche ouer their flocks night and day without ceasing that wheÌ„ the great shephard of the sheepe commeth he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory And thus much be it spoken hereof Theod. In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops Amphil. I tolde you before as I remember that the church might examine the life the conuersation and disposition of him or them whome they would haue to be their pastor and finding the same good to present him or them to the bishops or elders to whome it apperteineth to examine for his sufficiencie in knowledge and dexteritie in teaching and handling the word of God and finding him a man furnished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation to call him lawfullie according to the word of God and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest as a faithfull laborer therein Theod. But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute and plenarie power ought to choose their pastor and not bishops Ampil The churches haue no further power in the election of their pastor than as I haue told you that is to iudge of his conuersation integritie of life referring the whole action besides to the bishops and elders For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely besides that it would bréed confusion for some would choose one some another some this and some that neuer contenting theÌ„selues with any the church should doe that also which were directly contrarie to the word of God For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor to choose him to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word obseruing all kinde of rites ceremonies orders belonging thereto Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation presented theÌ„ to the apostles And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do represent lay their hands vpon them approue them after triall had of their sufficiencie in knowledge and sent them forth into the Lords vineyard The churches laid not their hands vpon them or as some call it consecrated them not nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the election of them as the apostles did But as I grant that the church for som cause and in soâ— respects is not to be excluded froÌ„ a consultatiue voyce as before or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plenarie power cal their pastor all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued for that is to be don and executed of the bishops elders and not of the churches consisting of lay men and for the most part rude and vnlearned Theod. What say you to a seigniorie or eldership were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y e same were established in euery congregation as it was in y e apostles daies Amphil. The seueral estates and conditions of the apostolicall churches and of ours al circumstances duly considered are diuers and much different one from another and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull The churches then wanted christian princes and magistrates to gouerne the same and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church But God be thanked we haue most christian kings priâ—ces and gouernors to rule and gouerne the church therfore we stand in lesse néed of the other And yet notwithstanding I grant that a seigniorie in euery congregation were to be wished if it could be brought to passe yet cannot I perceiue but that it would rather bring confusion than reformation considering the state of the church at this day For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined we read not of any shires dioces or precincts where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement as now they doe and therefore there being neither bishops ecclesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates as we haue now it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined But now we hauing al these things stand not in such necessitie of them as the churches in the apostles daies did Besides the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall and temporall and therefore not to continue alwaies neither ought the necessitie thereof to binde all churches Neither doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouernement but that euery church may alter and change the same according to the time and present state therof as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God and the common peace of the church Theod. What say you to deacons Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day Amphil. Their office which was to make collections for the poore to gather the beneuolencies and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue and to sée the same bestoed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church is very necessarie and without doubt ought to be continued for euer But yet is not the church tied to their names onely but to their office Which office is executed by honest substantiall men called Churchwardens or the like chosen by the consent of the whole congregation to the same end and purpose who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches bestow or sée the same bestowed vpon the poore and indigent of the same church which was the greatest part of the deacons duties in the apostles daies So that albeit wee haue not the name we yet hold their office in substance and effect Theod. What is your iudgement ought there to be any bishops in the churches of christians Amphil. To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chrâ—stians is to doubt of the truth it selfe For is there not mention made of their names dignities functions and callings almost in euery chapter of the new testament in all the epistles of Paule of Peter of Iohn of Iude and of all the rest Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders and doe they not woonderfully commende the
preaching of Christ Iesus truelie that his kingdome might dailie bee increased their consciences discharged and the Church edefied which Christe Iesus hath bought with the shedding of his precious hart bloud Theod. Maie a pastor or a Minister of the Gospell forsake his flocke and refuse his charge for the wearing of a surplesse a cappe tippet or the like as manie hane done of late daies who being inforced to weare these garmentes haue giuen vp their liuings and forsaken all Amphil. Those that for the wearing of these garments being but the inuentions the traditions the rites the ceremonies the ordinances constitutions of man will leaue their flocks and giue ouer their charges not caring what become of the same doe shew themselues to be no true shepheards but such as Christ speaketh of that when they sée the Wolfe comming will flie away leauing their flocke to the slaughter of the gréedie wolfe They giue euident demonstration also that they are not such as the holie Ghost hath made ouerseers ouer their flocke but rather such as being possessed with the spirite of pride and ambition haue intruded them selues to the destruction of their flocke If they were such good shepheards as they ought to be and so louing to their flocke they would rather giue their life for their shéepe if néede required than to runne from them leauing them to the bloodie téeth of the mercilesse wolues Is hee a good shepheard that watcheth dailie vppon his flocke or hee that runnes from them for euerie light trifle I thinke we would count him a verie negligent shepheard And shall wee thinke him a diligent or a good pastor and one that would giue his life for his shéepe as a good pastor should doe that for such trifles wil estrang himselfe from his flocke for euer Therefore I beséech God to giue them grace to looke to their charges and to let the other trifles alone being no part of our saluation or damnation Theod. But they saie they refuse the wearing of these garments because they are offensiue to the godlie a scandall to the weake brethren a hinderaunce to manie in comming to the Gospel an induration to the papists hardning their hearts in hope that their trumperie will once come in again to their singular comfort Amphil. It is an old saying Better a bad excuse than none at all And truly it séemeth they are driuen to the wall and sore graueled that will flie to these simple shifts But whatsoeuer they say or affirme certain it is that offensiue to the godly they cannot be who haue already learned to distinguish betwixt the things abused and the abuses themselues And who know also how to vse things mere indifferent to good ends and purposes And therfore this question thus I shut vp in few words that the wearing of these garmentes béeing commaunded by a Christian Prince is not offensiue or scandalous to anie good Christians and to the other it mattereth not what it be For they are such as the Lorde hath cast off into a reprobate sence and preiudicate opinion abusing all things euen the truth it selfe to their owne destruction for euer excepte they repent which I praye God they maye doe if it bee his blessed will Theodo I pray you why doe they weare white in their surplesses rather than any other colour and why a forked cappe rather than a rounde one for the Papistes if they were the authors of these garmentes haue their misteries their figures their representations in all things Wherfore I desire to know your iudgment herein Amphil. You say the truth for the Papistes haue their misteries in all thinges after their maner Therfore thus they say that white doth signify holines innocency al kind of integrity putting them in mind what they ought to be in this life and representeth vnto them the beatitude the felicitie and happines of the life to come And thys they prooue ab exemplis apparitionum from the example of apparitioÌ„s and visions in that aungels and celestial creatures haue euer appeared in the same colour of white Therefore forsooth they must weare white apparell The cornered cappe say these misterious fellows doth signifie and represent the whole monarchy of the world East West North South the gouernment whereof standeth vpon them as the cappe doth vppon their heades The gowne saye they doth signifie the plenary power which they haue to doe all things And therefore none but the Pope or hée with whome hee dispenceth maie weare the same euerie where bicause none haue plenariam potestatem plenarie power in euerie place but Beelzebub the Pope Yet the Ministers saith he maie weare them in their Churches in their owne iurisdictions ' because therein they haue full power from him Thus foolishlie do they deceiue themselues with vaine shewes shadows and imaginations forged in the mint of their owne braines to the destruction of manie But who is he that because these sottishe Papistes haue and doe gréeuouslie abuse these thinges will therefore haue them cleane remoued If all thinges that haue beene abused should be remooued because of the abuse than should we haue nothing left to the supply of our necessities neither meat drinke nor cloth for our bodies neyther yet which is more y e word of God the spirituall food of our soules nor any thing els almost For what thing is there in y e whole vniuersall world that eyther by one Hereticke or other hath not béene abused Let vs therfore take the abuses away and the things maie well remaine still For may not we christians vse these thinges which the wicked Papists haue abused to good ends vses and purposes I see no reason to the contrarie And therefore in conclusion I beséech the Lorde that wee may all agrée togither in one truth and not to deuide our selues one from another for trisâ—es making schismes ruptures breaches and factions in the church of God where we ought to nourish peace vnitie concord brotherly loue amitie and frendship one amongst an other And seeing we do all agree togither and iump in one truth hauing al one God our father one Lord Iesus Christ our sauiour one holy spirit of adoption one price of redemption one faith one hope one baptisme and one and the same inheritance in the kingdome of heauen Let vs therefore agree togither in these externall shadowes ceremonies and rites For is it not a shame to agree about the marow and to striue about the bone to contend about the karnell to vary about the shell to agree in the truth and to brabble for the shadow Let vs consider that this contention of ours among our selues doth hinder the course of the Gospell from taking such deepe roote in the heartes of the hearers as otherwise it would doe And thus for this time brother Theodorus we will breake off our talke concerning this matter vntill yt please God that we may meete againe Which if it please God we doe I promise you in an other woorke to discourse of the same more at large In the mean time let vs giue our selues to fasiing and prayer most humbly beséeching his excelleÌ„t maiesty to blesse our noble Quéen and to kéepe hir grace as the apple of his eie froÌ„ all hir foes to maintaine his word and gospell amongst vs to plant vnity and concord within our walles to increase our faith to graunt vs true and vnfained repentaunce for our sins and in the end eternall life in the kingdome of heauen thorow y e precious death passion blood-shedding and obedience of Christe Iesus our Lord and onely sauiour to whom with the father and the holy ghost one true and immortal God be al honor praise power empire and dominion throughout all congregations for euermore And thus brother Theodorus I bid you farewell in the Lord till I do sée you againe Theodo And I you also good brother Amphilogus beséeching the Lord that if we méete not vpon earth we maye meete yet in the kingdome of heauen there to rest in perfect felicitie for euer Amphil. The Lord grant it for his mercies sake Amen FINIS LONDON Printed by Roger Ward for William Wright and are to be solde at his shop ioyning to Saint Mildreds Church in the Poultry being the middle shop in the row 1583.