the vngodlie wee aske we obtaine The Dialogue Sectio XXVII ANd here will I make and end referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken to your better censure and further consideration whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ and that you are also a member of the same yet a No such matter it is but the vanitie of your conceit must you be inforced to graunt that all the ancient fathers before mentioned were hereticks and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so ofteÌ„ in their writings b Paul saith that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised but let vs admit although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c VVe goe by truth not by imagination imagined for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours could vpon d We doe not imagine so for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane but by lâ—tle and litle irremarkeably as weeds vse to grow among thâ— good coâ—ne a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies or how can we e VVho bids you imagine so but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed 2. Thes 2.3 imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world as that none of the said papisticall doctors who wrote against all those by the name of heretickes which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks nor your doctrine Catholicke termed Catholicke could heare of them or that in all that time no generall Councell who were gathered together from all parts of the world should receiue intelligence g No Chur h had any being then but ours onely of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner which if either any of the said doctors or any of those general Councels had done h Non sequitur we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead c. he was i Full simply and full little to your credit but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes confuted by Epiphanius and afterward by S. Austine when the reall presence was k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde before your Lateran councels first impugned the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane and so of other of your opinions as they sprang vp in latter yeeres but a Protestant religion such as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l A foule vntruth without either gaâ—d or welt but in England onely And Puritany such m They professe no such matter as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world so that it is n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is a religion and a church as yet in imagination onely for although Puritanes o you haue cause to loue them the better for in so doing they resemble you Papists doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture as before I haue sufficiently prooued There was neuer heresie in the world but you shall reade when it first sprang vp how it grew and increased and when it was cut downe and withered away you shall neuer p you may read in Paul when it first sprang and when it shal be cut downe 2. Thes 2 7 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang it hath for these 1300. yéeres by q VVe confesse no such matter your own confession increased and florished it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion is r But by your leaue we must doubt of it or rather be out of doubt it is not no doubt the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh saying And there shall be a path and a way and it shall be called the holy way and it shall be to you so direct and plaine as fooles shall not be able to erre therein Contrariwise you shall Å¿ In the Bible reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp who were the fathers thereof and it hath béene t The more to blame they that did it cut so oft as it hath reuiued so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies you can shew no succession of bishops no myracles no u These be stale prattlements of no weight beseeming such vain ianglers martyrs nor name any one member of your Church before Iohn Caluin for although Wickliffe Husse and Luther with the Waldenses and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane and so none of your Church and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth wherein there is x VVe haue the holy word of God to giue vs light and to guide vs cursed be he that lookes for better direction Amen no light no path no compasse or guide to direct your course The Answere HEere this man would make an end if hee could tell how but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe Sect. 5. alibi and therefore though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence yet somewhat more would bee added in this place
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
Dialogue Sectio VII SAint Austine Pompous funerals great troups of mourners sumptuous monuments these doe bring some cōfort such as it is vnto the liuing but they are not auaileable vnto the dead but we ought a VVhat is it that puts the matter out of doubt let that be shewed and we will doubt no longer not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church by the holesome sacrifice and by almes which are giuen that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them than their sinnes haue deserued This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by Tradition a Austine saith a patribus not ab Apostolis from the Apostles that whereas at the time of the sacrifice commemoration is made of b All communicants and onely communicants are prayed for is this catholicke doctrine think you all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them de verb. Apost sermon 32. We ought c Nor wee ought not to say it vnlesse we could proue it not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their liuing friends when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them or almes giuen in the Church Enchir. ad Laurent prope fin When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God they are not prayed for but d VVhat all confessors bishops popes and all all other which are dead which are there remembred are prayed for de verb. Apostol serm 17. When the sacrifice whether it bee of the altar or of almes déedes is offered for such as are dead e VVhy not before as well as after you may as well offer for the vnbaptized as for those that be valdé mali after Baptisme for those that be very good they be thanksgiuing for those which be not very euil they be propitiatory for those which be very euill although they profit not the dead yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing Dulcitij question quest 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis This was no doubt S. Austines f Or else you know not what faith is faith which he wrote taught and practised in his church and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches The Answere AVstine belike is plentifull in this question for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes which we will briefely runne ouer as they come In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition prayer for the dead was no more but a Tradition of the fathers here Austine is intreated to say that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time Decad. 4. serm 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades Illud dissimulare non possum saith he id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus inquit traditū vniuersa obseruat ecclesia c. This I cannot hide that that which they call a traditō of the Apostles Quest 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church see Serm. de verbis Apostoli 32. This saith he being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue And a litle after cōcludeth His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritū orandi pro defunctis haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorū ab ecclesia receptū esse By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate that this custome of praying for the dead was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid pro quo in so materiall a testimonie argueth a peruerse resolution rather to quench the fire of truth than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed But for answere I say that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of truth as I suppose Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideo hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione venialia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forsitan verum est Whether thinges committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seek not to conuince because perhaps it is true and in his Enchiridion Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it bee so done it is a question Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt whether the dead be releeued by our prayers Moreouer it is here likewise to be obserued that no soule were praied or offered for or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. lib. 1 de peccat merit remiss Concil 6. cap. 83. Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times that none but Communicants could be saued and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly as any other tradition that the Eucharist as well as Baptisme was necessary to the saluation of all euen of new borne babes wherof it cōmeth that the bread wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants and dead carkasses both in the Greeke and Latine Churches Forasmuch then as this place of Austine teacheth two points of generall doctrine one that prayers Sacrifices and almes doe profite the dead the other that none can bee saued but Communicants and so prayers and sacrifices and doles to bee made for no other we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other Furthermore these
the contrary Pa. It fareth with you in this businesse much like as with a man that hath lost his way who the more hée bestirreth himselfe the further hee is from the end of his iourney your heresie hath beene pursued and chased through all the doubles windinges which it can possibly imagine and is now retyred like a crafty foxe into the burrow where it was first littered bredde which is the iudgement and censure of humane reason whereunto as vnto a supreame iudge it doth now appeale from the authoritie of c Non potest per vllam Scripturam probari Roffensis contra captiuit Babiloni i. It cannot be proued by any scripture scriptures fathers and Councels and surely this is the very fountaine and seminary of all atheisme heresye for if I should labor to instruct an Infidell in the principall points of christian religion as the resurrection of the very same bodies after they bée consumed to dust ashes that the Father is God the Sonne God and the holy Ghost God and yet that they thrée are but one God without confounding of the persons that the Sonne is eternall and yet begotten of his father that d I maruell how this can he shewed to be a principall point of christian religion Christ came in vnto his disciples the e Are the Protestants hereticks for so interpreting what if he came in at the window or chimney or louer hole Non dicitur quod intrauit per ianuas clausas c vide Durand lib. 4. dist 44. q. 6. 1. It is not said that he entered by the doore being shut doores being shut not as the Protestants interpret the doores opening vnto him but after a miraculous and supernatural manner as S. Austine expoundeth it Tractatu 121. euangelij S. Iohannis all which is as contrary to the capacitie of humane reason as the reall presence in the sacrament if the Infidell in this case should appeale vnto the same iudges might he not with the same reason and by the iudgement of the same arbitrators as well reiect these and many like articles of our christian faith as you doe the reall presence if the imperfection of mans vnderstanding be such in the comprehension of the workes of nature that as f VVe must needs yeeld if such authors speake against vs. So is not Gods word 2. Tim. 3.16 Psa 119.105 Socrates saith Hoc solum scimus quod nihil scimus this one thing wee doe know that wee doe know nothing how great is the imperfection thereof in the comprehension of things supernatural being so farre remote from our senses and vnderstanding the wisedom of man as S. Paul saith is foolishnesse with God and therefore a farre incompetent iudge is it to determine of things appertaining to God from this fountaine sprang first the heresie of Arius who not being able to comprehend how the Sonne of God could be begotten when as there was no time of his begetting chose rather to rend himselfe from the vnitie of g That 's not the popish church Belike the catholicke church can vnderstand things that be aboue vnderstanding without the scriptures helpe the catholicke Church and to wrest the Scriptures to his owne capacitie than to submit his owne vnderstanding in things aboue vnderstanding vnto the censure of the Catholicke Church the sure rocke and pillar of trueth and whosoeuer he be that in matters of his faith consulteth with flesh and blood measuring the same by rule of humane reason must needs be an hereticke if not an atheist if you demaund how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament I answere I h No nor any man els liuing cannot tell because it is ineffable neither can I conceiue it because it is incomprehensible if you doe alleage impossibilitie I answere that i So answered Praxeas the hereticke vide Tertul. nothing is to God impossible if you require arguments of credibilitie you haue as many and as great as for any one article of our christian faith you haue the vniforme consent of the k I pray you where doth S. Iohn say hoc est corpus meum or what other plaine and direct words hath he or any of the greeke churches foure Euangelistes in direct and plaine wordes you haue the vniforme consent practise of the l Gréek churches continued and remaining at this day so that there is nothing wanting but the assistance of Gods holy spirite which you are to séeke and craue be continuall and hearty prayer The Answere OVr Protestant here is worse afraid than hurt the big lookes of his aduersary made him afraid but his withered armes could not hurt him hee telleth vs with full mouth and face enough that he will proue the sacrifice of the masse which implyeth transubstantiation by the consent of all ancient fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church but when all is come to all hee runnes away and leaues this withered conclusion behind him ergo the sacrifice of the Church was either the masse or the Protestants communion I trow such arguments as these may soone bee answered but now that our Protestant calleth forth sense and reason to witnesse against him and to demonstrate infallibly that his assertion is not to be beleeued he comes backe againe and intreats him to shut his eies and suffer himselfe to be hudwinked and then he will take paines to lead him into a popish ditch If we relie vpon the censure of our senses and reason saith he wee are in the hie way to all Atheisme and heresie Iohn 20.27 29. a strange thing that that which was a meane to faith in Christs time should now become a fountaine of heresie our Sauiour saith to Thomas because thou hast seene thou beleeuest and againe put thy finger here and see my hands and put forth thy hand put it into my side and be not faithlesse but beleeue and in another place he saith Luke 24.38 why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my hands and my feete for it is I my selfe handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to haue Now I beseech you tell me if the consecrated bread had a mouth to speake as it hath an inuisible mouth if Papists may be beleeued and should say to vs why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my forme and colour handle taste and see for the body of Christ is not round white sweete heauie thicke grosse earthie as you taste feele and see me to be Shall wee answere that this is the fountaine of heresie and Atheisme No by your leaue answer so who will and who dare this shall be my warrant to settle my conscience and without further trouble of minde or doubt of heart to beleeue that it is very bread and not the body of Christ Moreouer the holy Apostle S. Iohn assureth vs of the certentie of his
liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
for the repressing of popish insolencie First therefore where it is disputed that if our description of the Church be right then the ancient Fathers were heretickes and the vniuersall Church hereticall I am content this sequele be iudged by that which hath been alreadie disputed if euerie disagreement from truth must needs bee heresie Gal. 2.11 c. Act. 15.39 Act. 11.2 c. then either Paul or Peter was an hereticke and so was either Barnabas or Paul who were so stirred the one against the other that they parted asunder Peter was chidden of the Church of Iewrie for communicating to the Gentiles yet the Church was deceiued and not Peter 1. Co. 3 12.13 euerie errour is not an heresie and euerie one that builds timber hay or stubble vpon the foundation is not an hereticke and therefore this loose talke is little worth Yea but let vs admit saith hee that there was such a Church as you imagine in the first three hundred yeeres after Christ though it bee most false nay you must admit it maugre your head neither is it false euer the sooner with a merrie word prooue it to be false and wee will bee as farre from either admitting it or imagining it as your selfe but so long as you vse such a generall defence as they of Sodome and Gomorha and the Cities adioyning might haue vsed against Lot the Cananites against Abraham and the old world against Noah and his familie there is no cause why such goodly shewes of antiquitie should controll Gods truth if Lot Abraham and Noah had beene ruled by prescription of time by multitude by authoritie of Princes by traditions of Elders or by any thing else in the world but Gods owne mouth they had been as Sodome and like to Gomorha and yet for all that Peter the head Patron of Rome as you say and the Iewes that depended vppon him playd the hypocrites together and Barnabas a good man full of the holy Ghost and faith Act. 11.24 was led away with them to the same hypocrisie and though the scripture testifie of Lot that hee was a iust man Gal. 2.13 and that his righteous soule was vexed from day to day with the vncleanly conuersation of the wicked yet by your leaue 2. Pet. 2.7.8 the prostitution of his daughters his drunkenesse and incest Gen. 19.8.31 c. doe plainely euince that he was somewhat tainted with the sins of Sodome Yea but Sodome was not the Church of God neither was there any Christian Church established when Peter and his companie playd the hypocrites Well Let that bee graunted yet my reason is so much the stronger for if Strangers from God and young Nouises in religion preuailed so much that the one drew Lot the other Peter and Barnabas to doe thinges not conuenient how much more may the vsuall slips and fals and infections of Christian Churches worke the like inconueniences in the Fathers and guides of the same we doe not imagine that the Church of Christ was vtterly quailed and extinguished vpon a suddaine for that 's more than the gates of hell shall euer be able to bring to passe but this we say and are sure that the mysterie of iniquitie did worke in Pauls time and fell not a sleepe as soone as Saint Paule was dead waking againe 600. 2. Thes 2.7 yeares after when this mysterie was disclosed for Rome was not built in a day or vpon a suddaine and the Maister builders of it are none of the seuen Sleepers and therefore no maruaile though perusing Councels Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we finde the print of the Popes feet here and there scatteringly and so perceiue how he went on and grewe to the fulnesse of the age of Antichrist Neither is it preiudiciall to Gods cleere truth faithfully registred in the word of God that none tooke penne in hand to defend it against Antichrist for the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira Reuel cap. 2.14.15.20 though they were Gods faithfully Ministers yet doe wee not read that either they or any of their fellowes and friends wrote or spake any thing against Baalamites and Nicholaitans and the false prophecies of Iesabell that infected their Churches Epist 119. ad Ianuar. Austine saith Multa huiusmodi propter nonnull trum vel sanctarum vel turbulentarum personarum scandala deuitanda liberiùs improbare non audeo I dare not freely as I should improoue many scandals of this kind because of some either holy or troublesome persons that fauour them and therefore no maruell though the religion of Antichrist being a compound heresie of many simples grew on soft and faire and plodded still forward by little and by little without any resistance till the time came it should bee disclosed if the light of truth had been suddenly eclipsed the ancient Fathers and their adherents would haue laboured to restore it but this eclipse growing slowly by small peeces they knew not the deepenesse of Satan Reuel 2.24 Math. 13.25 c. and so gaue the tares of Antichrist leaue to growe so long among the wheat til they were past weeding neuerthelesse looke the preface of Caluines Institutions to the French King and there you shall finde the testimonies of Acacius Spiridion Ambrose Austine Epiphanius Gelasius Chrysostome Calixtus Cyprian Apollonius Paphnutius and others against outward braueries abstinence from flesh monkish idlenesse painted Images suffrages for the dead transubstantiation the halfe communion vnwritten determinatiōs set fastings forbidding mariage mans weak iudgment and such like flowers of Antichrists garland and if these had sayd nothing yet there were many other Fathers besides these and whether they tooke penne in hand and wrote more fully against the seuerall branches of Poperie as they grew it were hard to tell yet may wee affirme it with as good probabilitie as you may denie it howsoeuer it be the wisedome of God hauing so decree to punish our vnthankefulnesse the doctrine of Rome Reuel 17.9 which is the seat of Antichirst grew and increased a long time but thankes bee to God it is now in such a consumption as eats vp the flesh of it 2. Thes 2.8 and wee haue sufficient warrant that it shall bee abolished Neither is this increase and multiplication of errour till it conquer sinceritie and truth and breake forth into open absurdities so strange a matter in the Church of God Thus you may read in the Valentine Councell In proemio Quorundā patrum vtilis fuit religiosa suggestio retractandi de his quae nec recipere possumus ob ecclesiae sanctitatem nec tamen vsquequaque consuetudinis causa damnare ita enim per omnes ecclesias eiusmodi vitiorum germen inoleuit vt ad plena remedia non facilis sit recursus Profitable and religious is the motion of certain Fathers concerning retracting those thinges which because of the holynesse of the Church we may not receiue and yet by reason of custome dare
as they were warned of their errour so are you as they without repentance lost the benefite of Christs sacrifice so shall you if the Fathers had been as often and plainely admonished as you haue been they would being holy and sincere men haue reformed their iudgement and keeping the head though they erred in some part the Lord will not impute that error vnto them And againe they erred not so wilfully as you and therefore we account not of them as of you who haue multiplyed your errours and left almost no one ground of pure religion vnshaken This is a sufficient answere to such beggarly petitioners yet his mouth will not be stopt till wee shew some of the Popish reuolts from Gods ancient truth to the seuerall heresies whereof Poperie consisteth To this end therefore we may remember the double condemnation of Eustathius in two seuerall councels Socrat. Hyst lib. 2 cap. 33. Casaria and Gangra for such Catholicke Articles as runne currant among Papists at this day as for example forbidding to marry abstinence from meats sundring men from their wiues and seruants from their Maisters vnder colour of Religion abhorring the blessing and communion of a married Priest and such like articles as were condemned most of them of all Churches vnder heauen 200. yeeres before Eustathius was borne for thus writes Apollonius a Martyr Euseb hystor lib. 5. cap. 16. speaking of the hereticke Montanus Hic est qui coniugia dissoluere docuit ieiuniorum leges praescripsit qui Pepuzam ac Tinium modicas ciuitates Phrygiae Ierusalem vocauit vt cunctos vndique ad illas congregaret qui pecuniarum exactores constituit qui sub pretextu nomine oblationum numerum captationem artificiosè concutus est qui salaria doctrinae praedicatoribus subministrauit vt per ventris studium doctrina ipsius inualesceret This is he which dissolued mariages prescribed lawes of fasting which called Pepuza and Tinium two little Cities of Phrygia Ierusalem that hee might gather men from euerie place thither which appointed exactors of money which vnder the pretence and name of offering did cunningly deuise to get gifts who ministred stipends to the preachers of his doctrine that so for his bellies sake his doctrine might be euerie where declared The same Father and Martyr sayth that his Prophets and Martyrs did extort money not onely from the rich but also from the poore euen widowes and Orphanes Marcion and Appelles forbad mariage as appeareth in Tertullian The Manichies were condemned first by Pope Leo and then by Gelasius as the first Fathers of communicating vnder one kinde De prescrip ad haeret Serm. 4. de quadrag In decret pontif distinct in cap. comperimus In Catalog dogm Manich. lib. de anima in fine Dialog 2. Contra Eutyc Can. 36. Haeres 70. The same heretickes were the Fathers of monkish idlenesse and therefore Epiphanius cals them Desidentes vespae nihil operantes c. Idle Waspes and doing no worke The Doctrine of Purgatory was first recōmended to Tertullian by the paraclet of Montanus The hereticke in Theodorets dialogues saith as the Papists doe Symbola dominici corporis saguinis post inuocationem sacerdotis mutantur alia fiunt The Symboles of the Lords bodie and blood after the inuocation of the Priest are changed and made other things And Pope Gelasius tels the hereticke Eutiches Non desinit esse substantia panis naturavini There ceaseth not to bee the substance of bread and the nature of wine The Counsell of Eliberis enacted that that which is worshipped should not bee painted vpon wals thereby condemning Popish Imagerie Epiphanius faith of the Audians * They vse great store of Apocryphall writings Epiphanius haeres 46. 47. 61. c. De preser advers haeret libro de baptis in fine Euseb hystor lib. 3. cap. vlt. lib. 2. cap. 15. De prescript advers haeret Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 23. 24 lib. 3. cap. 2 Canus lib 3. cap. 3. fund 4. Bellarm. de verb. non script lib. 4. cap. 8. Vtuntur Apochryphis multis abunde The Tatians the Eucratifes the Apostolickes and such like heretickes were the first founders of single life and being so highly esteemed it tooke hold in time vpon the Church Womens baptisme which is currant in Poperie came first from heretickes wiues of whome Tertullian sayth that they were Procaces audentes docere contendere exercismos agere curationes repromittere forsitan tingere Malepart such as boldly tooke vpon them to teach to contend to exercise such as promised to cure diseases and perhaps also to baptize Papias a Chiliast was the first father and founder of Traditions and Peters primacie or Romish Episcopalitie Tertullian and Irenaeus tell vs that heretickes held the Apostles did not reueale Omnia omnibus sed quaedam palà m vniuersis quaedam secretò paucis All thinges to all men but some things openly and to all some thinges secretly to a few as namely Basilides Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Carinthus And this is the opinion of Papists at this day This is sufficient for a tast that therby you may iudge how toothsome Poperie is that consisteth of these and many other such roots of bitternesse And that you may be yet better infourmed how the good corne of true religion may bee ouer-growne with the weeds of popish errours and heresies and yet in time get the victorie againe and ouer-maister them Cap. 2 19. the Church of Thyatira so highly commended in the Reuelation may bee a plaine document vnto vs which though it seemed to be euacuated by the Cataphrygian heresie Epipha haeres 51. yet a hundred yeeres after the Church reuiued againe and multiplyed and so by Gods mercie conquered the woman Iezabel and her hereticall Prophets euen so it fareth with the Church of God in generall for howsoeuer it pleased God for the punishment of our sinnes to giue Antichrist leaue by little and little to growe to such a height that at length hee ouer-shadowed and ouer-dropped all truth and sinceritie yet when God saw his time hee began to raise vp such worthy men as lopt off his braunches Daniel 4. and shooke off his leaues and scattered his fruit and so continueth and will continue to execute his iudgements vpon that man of sinne that in the end he will not leaue so much as the stumps of his roots in the earth Touching Puritanie which still this fellow quarrels withall when hee can prooue it to bee either a Church or a Religion by it selfe we will shape him an answere in the meane time let him know that no Protestant in England or out of England holds any doctrine necessarie to saluation but such as is warranted by Scripture neither are we left wholly to our selues in matters of discipline to appoint what wee thinke good Rom. 14.23 1. Cor. 14.26.40 but are guided by the generall rules of Gods word how to behaue our selues in the