such like precepts And no wonder for thes simple Gospel times knew no Bishops who watched not over Soules and laboured in the word and doctrine When the Apostle Peter commands Christians to obey civil Rulers He distinguishs the King as Supeream and Governours sent by him that a Chief subjection may be yeelded to the one and a subordinat to the other But nothing of this is heard of in enjoining peoples subjection to Ministers Ane honour must be allowed by Timothey by the people of God consequentlie to elders that rule weil yea and a double honor but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 especialy to those that labour in the Word and Doctrine The Apostle in stating a distinction in the degries of honour allowed to elders and in this different character of the one from the other diversifies elders higher lower Now by the same reason upon which Divines doe rationaly build this conclusion it must be granted that the enjoyning obedience to all Pastores promiscuusly and without any Note of distinction will inferr their equal office and authoritie And by the same reason that the Apostle added this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or especialy in this place he should have added in these or some such comands relating to the peoples obedience a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or especialy to distinguish the Diocesian Prelat from other Pastores and expressed it thus esteem them all highly obey them be subject to them that teach and watch over you All your Pastors but especially the Supereminent Pastor or Bishop who hath the cheifinspection and from whom all the rest derive their authoritie Likwayes in enjoining the pastoral duties he should have been especially noticed who had the cheif hand and authoritie therin which is a Topick improven by this informer but nothing of this is seen in Scripture as shall be after more fully cleared 4. Wee find accordinglie A practical Equalitie among Pastores or Bishops in the exercise of this governing power abundantlie held out and exemplified in Scripture The judging and censuring of the incestuous man is by the Apostle enjoyned to the Church Officers or Ministers of Corinth joyntlie 1 Cor. 5. Chap. compared with 2 Cor. 2. Chap. The Apostle all along supposeth ane inherent authority in these Ministers to put forth this grand juridical Forensical Act â—…ydes them for so long neglecting it and shewes its object viz. This person under the formalis ratio of wicked or scandalus Again he shews its nature to be Ajudging or puting from among them and delivering to Satan upon this judging previous thereunto He also shews that this authoritie touches all Church Members not them that are without whom God judgeth but those that are within Now as hee supposes I say ane authority of this Nature and extent inherent in these Church officers so he speaks to them indefinitly and universally all along which were very cross to his Scope If he had set up or allovved the Diocesian Prelat whose sole prerogative this were And the inflicted Censur he calls with the samine indefinitnes A punishment inflicted by many who accordingly are commanded with the same indefinitnes or universality of expression To receave absolve him upon his repentance The exercise of the binding and â—…owsing power being in the representative juridicall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Church to whom scandales must be delated and to whom the promise of ratification of her juricall Acts in Heaven is made Matth. 18 17. Besids we find the exercise of ordination in a Presbitry 1 Tim. 4 14. And that even in relation to ane Evangelist Timothy The Presbitry here must be a juridicall Senat and meeting for the Office can lay on no hands And ordination is ane hie authoritative juridicall Act. Pauls presence and laying on of hands together with them confirmes their authoritie as being cumulative thereto not privative therof even as his countenanceing of or concurring with our Adversaries pretended Diocesian Prelat let us suppose it in his Act of ordination would not infringe his pretended right herein Ergo. By their own Confession and by paritie of reason it cannot infringe or Impeach this power which is attributed to the Presbitery Had the Apostle in stead of Presbyterie put in Prâ—…at and expressed it thus By the laying on of the hands of A Bishop or Diecesian-Bishop I suppose our Adversaries would have thought the Episcopal power of ordination invincibly demonstrat ther from notwithstanding of Pauls saying 2 Tim 1 6. By the laying on of my hands viz together with the Bishop Pauls extraordinare Apostolicall imposition of hands being no white derogatorie unto the supposed Episcopal ordinarie power now verte tabulas the Apostle sayes by the laying on of the handes of the Presbitry Ergo the ordinary and equal power of Pastores and its equal exercise in ordination is herin convincingly made out Nixt The Prelats monopolizing thus in himself the decisive suffrage of Judicatories is cross many wayes to Scripture For I Its a stepping up in a peice of Diotrephese-lik or rather papal-pride above the Apostles themselves who in Churches constitut did alwayes take alongst with them the advice consent and authoritative concurrence of ordinary Ministers and Elders in Government As is evinced in the premised Scriptures wherin it is convinceingly clear that Paul though ane Apostle of all the Churches indewed with extraordinarie unconfined inspection over the same and Pastor thereof in actu exercito having extraordinary Miracolous-gifts being the Master Builder and Spiritual Father who by the Gospel had begotten both Pastores and flocks of many Churches Yet would neither excommunicat the incestuous Corinthian alone but put it upon the Church Officers as their duty to doe it by a judicial decisive joynt suffrage Nor yet did he exclud the presbyters in ordaining even ane Evangilist but took in their judicial and presbyterial concurrence And in Act. 15. In that meeting or Counsel at Jerusalem where was a wholl Colledge or Presbitery of Apostles and mett about ane Act or decision of a high Nature wherein was put forth both Adegmatick critick diatactick authority or power in relation to the clearing of that great pointe of truth anent the abrogation of the Mosaicall ceremonies and censuring the opposers of Paul and Barnabas herin who had disturbed the Churches and belied the Apostles Doctrine And accordingly in order to the restoring and establishing truth and order in these disturbed Churches The ordinary Ministers or elders concurr with the Apostles in every step viz In the conferrence disquisition the authoritative decision the drawing forth of the sentence and decree the sending out of the decreeing and censuring Epistle the imposeing of the decrie upon the Churches to observe and keep the same c. 2. This cutts the throate of that juridical forensical joynt decision of Church Judicatories which the Scriptur doth so clearly hold forth Where is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the censureing juridiall court drawing sorth a joynt decision or censure Wher
and others owned as such a tradition lib 1. de pecc mer. Basil names four Apostolick traditions signeing with the cross praying to the east anointeing with oyle praying in the standing postur from Easter to whitsuntyd See the Appendix to jus divinum minise Evan prop. 2. The informer and his fellowes make a great bustle anent the condemneing of Aerius for holding that Bishops and presbyters are all one But Beza could have informed him de grad 346. that Epiphanius Haeres 75 imputs to him as great heresies these Tenets 1. That he held it unlawfull to offer and pray for the dead 2. That he held that Saincts departed were not to be invocat 3. That there were not fixed fast dayes to be keept 4. That the jewish pascal was not to be observed because ourpassover is already offered Now if our Informer condemne him for these also we weed care the lesse for his condemning him in the point of prelacy 3. It is certain that the account of the first times immediatly after the Apostles is as to mater of fact very dark uncertain consequently a very slippery rule Hegesi pus apud Euseb lib 3. Cap 28. tells us that immediatly after the Apostolick age was gone tunc impii erroris conspiratio per seductionem eorum qui alienam doctrinam trad ant initium caepit Then the conspiracy of wicked error but the seducings of those who delivered another doctrine took its begining Eusebius himself the prime writer from whom in a manner is the wholl of all that is delivered anent Church Government and Bishops and who presents these fragmens of writers out of which our episcopal men gaâ—…her up their proofes in the proem of his History acknowledges that he is in that worke entered into a dark desert therein he hath no footsteps of any goeing before him but only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Some litle occasions or some pitty narations which every one in their own time hath left and delivered let any read haumer ane Inglish Bishop his translation of Eusebius wherein this will be found very clear Scalliger prolegom in Chron. Euseb. Saith Intervallum illud ab ultimo capite actorum c. the nterval from he last chotter of the Acts of the Apostles until the midst of the reigne of Trajan in which tract Quadratus and a Ignatius flourished let our informer observe this as to Ignatius may be truly called with varrâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or obscur wherin nothinthat is certan hath come to our hand concerning the affairs of Christians except some very few things which the enemies of godlines carches up by the way such as Suetonius Cornelius Tacitus Plenius Cecilianus which gap that Eusebius might fill up he drew some things without discretion and choise out of the upotiposes or exemples of I know not what Clement for he is not that learned Clement who wrote the Stromataâ—…â—…nd out of the fyve books of hegesippus a writer no better Tilen himself a great pleader for the Episcopal cause yet tells us Contr 3 l. 2 c. 2 Not. 39. and c. 3. Note 6 That the history of these first times hath great blacks and gapes which the Spurius Clements and other writers of the same stamp filled up with petty fables drawen from their own braine That from the end of the acts of the Apostles until Traian's times thereis almost nothing extant which is certain hence he saith occasion was taken by men of bad dispositions to make hold to faine anything whom even the Apostles times wanted not Not to insist upon the many things written and observed of Eusebius which may invalidat the credit of his history and his many gross errors therein and in other poynts observed by Scalliger and others How fabulous is that history of Christes Epistle to Agbarus rejected even by pope Gelasius in a Councel of Seventy Bishops at room That which Philo the jew wrote of the Essae Ans a Sect among the jewes Eusebius affirms that he wrot it of Christian mmks which Scalliger shewes to be false out of Philo himself in elencho tribaeresii He proves peters crucifixion at Rome by a tomb proofe In the computation of times Scalliger observes his gross errors Nay which is more considerable he discovers gross ignorance of Scripture in saying that the Cephas reprehended by Paul was not the Apostle peter but another of the number of the Seventy disciples Besyds many things in his personall cariage and qualities which may weaken the Credit of his History as his presideing in the councel of Tyre against Athanasius and standing upon the Arrians side Scalliger in his Thesaurus temporum Animad p 268 Setts down the testimonies of the Ancients concerning his errors Arrianisme wherein some affirme that he died When he wrote the history he was ane Arian Moreover Admitt his Testimony were abeve all exception yet that his history hath been corrupted by some ignorant impostor is demonstrated from this by Didocl cap. 4. p. 119 that he maks mention of Sozomen who was born ane hundred years therafter Lastly As to the Catalogues of Bishopes which our Informer and his masters befor him exhibit to us from the Apostolick times he might have found them aboundantly invalidat by many of the learned whose judgement and Testimonys are collected by Didocl cap 4 p. 121 122 123 124 c. Which we may well challeng this man to answer Therefore we shall dismiss it with these observes 1. That Tertullian Irenaeus and others who make use of this Argument of Succession against hereticks designe only to shew a derivation of true doctrine from the Apostles against them and that the Church had the Traduoes Apostolici Seminis a derivation of the Apostles Doctrine but never meaned it of a Succession of men of the same office every way Tertullian saith Arise o truth and expone they Scriptures c. Irenâ—…us in his time speaking of this Succession from the Apostles pressing adherence to the truth which they delivered makes mention of Presbyters opportet adhaerere iis c We must adhere to them who keeps the Apostles doctrine and with the order of presbitery mentain the word And again therefore we must obey these presbiters who are in the Church who have their Succession from the Apostles as we have showen Then he adds qui cum Episcopatus Successione charisma veritatis certum Secundum placitum patris acceperunt That is who with the Succession of Episcopacy have receaved from the father the sure gift of truth thus he l. 4. c. 44. And because this Informer singes their old song who before him will still Shuffle in Bishops when the Ancients speak of Presbyters Let him remarke what he sayes lib 3. cap. 2. Speaking of the contumacy of the adversaries of truth quum autem ad eam iterim traditionem quae est ab Apostolis quae per Successiones presbyterorum in Ecclesiis custoditur provocamus eos c But when wee apeall them again to that
shall this world become if these mens faith-banishing principles be once admitted Thirdly to evince that our Prelats puppets and new pleaders are Babeâ—… true brood and builders thou mayest see how sweetly they joyn with the Papists in their glosses upon these Scirptures pleaded against them Whenc it is evident even to a demonstrative certainty that the cause of popry and prelacy are of ane inseparable affinity and stand or fall together If this mans glosses whereby he shifts off our Scripture Arguments striking at the Bishops mitre be once admitted the popes triple crown is equally shielded against the weapons of all Protestants Our learn'd Protestant divines in confuting the popish evasions do so manage their dispute as if they were directly pleading against this Informer in defending our Prelacy And who heares his glossings pleadings and answers would imagine that by some Metempsuchosis Bellarmine or Eccius were now acting the Informer to proselyt the Presbyterians to our Prelacy or a papacy rather Besides 't is clear he embarques with the Papists in his endeavour to bring in antiquity and the Churches practice as the infallible comment upon the Scripture in the Episcopall debate consequently in all debats in Theology Nay we must measure the Temple and the Altar mould our Arguments in this point of truth by Scripture standard but for the utter court of Antiquity wee leave it out for it s given to the Gentiles It s many soul principles and practices will not be gotten within the Holy Scripture verge This man in his Scripture pleadings is very sparing for a few pages measure will do it But for Antiquity ware he mets us out large and full to the great part of all the book and in this he deals honestly giving the courser stuff the larger yard In fine thou may see these men discovered beyond all their hiding pretences of love peace and unity their large spacious charity extended to the dimensions of a Metropolitans pallace hath fine entertaining rooms for Papists Quakers Arminians c. but the poor Presbyterians will scarce get such a room in it as Bishop Bonners colehouse wherein he lodged the martyrs they cry out one Presbyterian Ministers as refusing all Christian fellowship with them in worship but when shall we see them open their pulpits to our Ministers after they have banish'd them from their own flocks They viliâ—… all our differences unto meere punctilioes yet they contend about them tanquam pro aris focis and had rather all Presbyterians were harassed and persecuted even to a consuming desolation then one fringe of their Garments As Bishop Lighton call'd the points debated were cut off and let go They declame zealously in their pulpits and Pamphlets against sanguinary Principles How can these cruell men say they looke up to the God of love But now after they have drunk pretty largely for many years of Presbyterian blood and are gaping for more as fast as the bloody whore of Rome who in a great measure influences them these devout Burrio's can wipe their mouths and pretend they have peace offerings with them Mistery Babylon Mystery Prelacy What ane abysse of deceit is here In the third place thou may see that the cause wee contend for as it hath the first and pure Scripture Antiquity so the next ensuing Antiquity also and the patrociny of the purer ages and the auspiciously Harmonious consent of reformed Churches and divines So that our present Testimony is the same with that of the witnesses against the beast and our adversaries stand arranged under Antichrists banner in the whole series at least complex farrago of their principles A Diocesian Erastian Prelacy underprop't by blood and Perjury headed by a civill papacy embracing in its bosome all foul errours is a hideous Monster a bowing wall a tottering sence and lookes in face and feature so unlike to Christs bride held out and pourtrayed in Scripture and once gloriously shining in this land that no disciple of Christ no friend of the Bridegroom can mistake the one for the other So that our adversaries charge of novell heterodoxy is a new minted calumny a frighting buk bear and scar-cnow fit to fright children in knowledge to be the derision of the knowing and for nothing else Fourthly thou hast here set before thee a looking glasse representing our sin and punishment in these later dayes Wee have not suitably emproven a faithfull Ministry once our Churches crown and glory now that crown is falling apace how many stars hath the dragon cast from heaven to earth Wee have not not studied personall reformation while publick Nationall reformation was owned therefore the holy Jealous God hath given us up to an avowed disouning of that reformation Wee endeavoured not while Gods candle shin'd upon our tabernacle to get our case discovered and search'd our hearts sprinkled from an evill Conscience therefore most of us are given up to Conscience Wasting sins We have not drawn with joy from our wells of salvation while they were open and running in a plenty of powerfull pure ordinances now God hath suffered Philistines to stop these Wells and while wee endeavour to dig them again such are the counter endeavours of this man and his fellowes by their pleading and practices that they are called Ezek and Sitna strife and contention Wee are like to dig and strive long ere wee get the well called Rehoboth and faithfull Ambassadours of Christ shall find their old rooms again in the house of God Wee â—…ave not keept up a due impression of the 〈◊〉 â—…lidging force of our National solemne Covenants with God who of us have endeavoured to perform our vowes to God therein Therefore God hath given most of us up to a palpable disowning and shamelesse renunciation and abjuration of these great and sacred Oaths Wee hid our selves from discoveries of our practical breaches and many whorish departings from God pointed at by our faithfull Seers now he hath given us up to a legall avowed departing The accursed thing which was before secretly with us is now pleaded for disputed for by pretended Seers and wathmen even the remnanm have dealt treacherously with God therefore he hath given them up to treacherous dealers who have dealt very treacherously with them Wee were wearied of reformation wearied of God and said to our faithfull seers see not prophecy not right things but deceits get you out of the way cause the holy one of Israel to cease from before us Ourwhorish hearts lusted after a sinfull liberty and Egypts flesh-pots neither were wee throughly â—…ged from our old sins our iniquities of 〈◊〉 Therefore God hath answered us 〈◊〉 cording to the Idols of our heart anâ—… hath said to us after wee have set up ouâ—… Calves go to Bethel transgresse at Giâ—… gall c. He hath given us our desire and sent leannesse into our soul. Our noble Vine because so dreadfully degenerat is now whithered and wasted plukt up in fury planted in the wildernesse
such a president or primat as diotrephes affected to be distinct from the Divinely appointed Bishop And therefore whatever he might suppose to be creeping in at that tyme he must needs upon this ground interpret it to be a recesse from the divine appointment and in so far a Corruption As for what our Informer repeats here againe ad nauseam That Bishops were immediatly the Church before all the Apostles were gone and imediatly after which is a commentary upon Timothy and Titus and the Asian Angels and Diotrephes I answer I beleive indeed as to his last instance that there were Diotrephesies earely enugh and Beza's Episcopus humanus or fixed president but that there was either in the Apostles time or ane hundered years and more afterward I speak far within compass his Diocesian Prelat with sole power of ordination and jurisdiction in a Diocess he will assoone joyn the poles together as prove it by any faithful and authentick Testimony CHAP. XII The Informers appeal to antiquity in the point of Episcopacy That antiquity is at most testis facti but not judex veri may witness matter of fact but is no judge of what is right therein proved from the Testimony of Scripture and the fathers The Informer's reasoning on this head reduced to a formal Syllogisme and discussed That in the first purest age the Church was governd by Presbyters withtout Bishopes proved by Testimonys of the fathers particularly of Ierome His Testimony at Large vindicated from the exceptiones of the Informer OUr Informer hath by this time got out of the straites of his Scripture Arguments for prelacy and his pretended replyes to Scripture arguments against them Wherin we have seen how pittifully he lies been Bruillied in his endeavours to put the fairding of some Scripture Characters upon this Monster The Diocesian Prelat Now he wil lanch out in to the vast Ocean of Antiquity wherein he supposes and not altogother amisse that this Leviathan can swim much better And therefore he fills up the Third part of the pamplet with a tedious legend of human Testimonyes in relation to Bishops But in this his argueing from antiquity he playes the same petty Sophister as in his pretended Scripture proofes For he is still pleading for a versatil Chimaera of his own braine and dare not state the Question as to the Prelat now existent in his Diocesian and erastian mould like to whom if he will shew me but one Prelat among all his ragged Testimonies I will yeeld the Cause to him So that we are not concened in his Testimonies They being all Mute or Ambiguous as to our debate Wee shall therefore proceed to Consider the substantials of his Argument on this head and add some Chapters which will be found abundantly to cutt the sinneâ—…es of his reasoning from pretended Testimonies of the Fathers and vindicat our Cause even in point of Antiquity 〈◊〉 I Suppose this man if he will not renounce his protestant profession cannot but grant that it is not Antiquity as he call it or human Testimonies but the Scriptures of truth which most judge in this debate So that I hop I may suppose that he lookes upon his Antiquitity as ane accessorie appendix onely to his Scripture arguments and that the Scripture is not for him but against him I hope it is conuincingly apparent from that is said above we must to the law and the Testimony in this and all other points of faith Antiquity without the first Scripture antiquity deserves not the name Id adulterum quod posterius id verum quod pri nium said Tertullian That is adulterat which is Last and trere which is first I am the way the truth and the Life said Christ but not I am Custome And Cyprian tells us that Consuetudo sins veritate est vetusias erroris Antiquity without truth is but a mouldy error Our Lord himself rejected this argument it was said of old and apposes unto it but I say Well may we then oppose the Scripture sayings to our Informer's it was said of old and by our Lords warrand reject his pretences from Antiquity to warrand any thing which the word condemnes and for this we have good warrand of antiquity it self for the fathers universaly doe hold that onelie the Scriptures must judge in points of faith Sunt libri Dominici quorum authoritati utrique consentimus utrique credimus there being in them all things to be believed and practised utrique servimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causam nostram is great Augustins advice The books of the Lord are they to whose Authority we both consent which we both beleive To which we both submit There let us seek the Church There let us discusse our Cause Jerom on Chap. 23 of Matth. tells us quod de scripturis authoritatem non habet eaedem facilitate contemnitur qua probatur That which derives not its authority from Scripture the contemneing of it is as ready as the proof is offered and on the 1. Chap. of Hag Quae absque athoritate Testimoniis scripturarum quasi traditione Apostolica sponte reperiunt atque confingunt percutit Gladius Dei Such things as men of there own accord find out forge upon pretence of Apostolick tradition with out the authority and Testimonies of Scriptures the sword of God strikes throw the same Besides this discovers the plea from Antiquity to be very Impertiment in this debate Because the Question betwixt us is not defacto but de jure not what sort of Bishops have been as to matter of fact introduced into the Church of old or of late but by what warrand and right they have possessed their places We alledge and prove that the present Prelat now existent stands condemned by Christ the great lawgiver his rules in point of Church Government set down in his Testament Now to answer this Charge with humane Testimonies as to Custom or practise of the Church even granting that his Testimonies did prove the matter of fact viz That our present Prelat is exemplified in the ancient Bishops what is it but to oppose humane corruption to Gods ordinance The practise of men to Gods rule and mens Testimonies who are liars to the divine Oracles of the God of truth This man thinkes it a Herculean argument when he drawes his human Testimonies as to prelacy neer the Apostles time as if he had travelled to Hercules pillars and wonders how we can suppose that the Church could so soon alter the divine institutions But I pray how long was it after Gods Holy law was proclaimed from heaven by his own terrible voice that the wholl Church of Israel together with Aaron himself set up and worshiped the golden Calf contrary unto the very express letter of the Second command Now suppose that idolatry several hundered years afterward had pleaded this Antiquity or ancient Custome of the Church of Israel after frequently imitated and which had its plausible pretexts of intention to
worship God for the seasi was proclaimed to Iehova and to have a visible signe of his presence Wil the Informer say that this had been a good argument to warrand the breach of the Second command though this Practise was but fourty dayes younger then the promulgation if self So the case is here Though he could shew us human clear Testimonies nay more even Scripture Testimonies as to the factum that the diocesian yea and Erastian Prelat had been existent and set up in some Churches in the Apostles own time yet if we can from our Lord and his Apostles doctrine and practise prove this officer to be a plant not of a divine plantation and contrary to the divine institutiones He must needs grant that though esteemed golden it ought to be Nehushtan rejected and pluckt up by the roots The Papists who hold the Scriptures to be but a half-rule made up by traditions yet will not dare to own professedly at least any principle or practise condemned in the Word suppose he could bring thousands of Testimonies from ancient writers touching his Prelat he pleads for they are but hâ—…man Testimonies and therefore cannot beget a divine faith which is founded upon the word only Surge veritas ipsa Scripturas tuas inter retare quam câ—…nsuetudo non nooit nam si nosset non-esset saith Tertullian Arise o truth it self and expone they Scriptures which custome hath not known for had it known them it had not been The Informer's Testimonies may induce to believe that there were Bishops in the Church but whither the office which these Bishops are supposed to hold be of God yea or not this queston must be brought to a higher tribunall and Gods Oracles must determine therein before the Conscience can be satisfied as to the owning of such a Church officer And if God dissowne him I may be ane Athanasius contra orbem in withstanding him It being still certain that these human witnesses are testesfacti at most but not judices veri recti Attesters of matters of fact but not judges of what is right and equal therein Thus we have seen that though all our Informers pleading from antiquity were granted his cause profliga by Scripture weapons lyes grovelling in the dust wheras he alleadges Testimonies as to the existence of Prelats in the Christian Church neer the Apostles times or contemporary with them that Catalogues of a Succession of Prelats down from Apostles and Evangilists have been keept in Churches which he thinkes speakes convincingly for the Episcopacy of Timothie and Titus c. I Ans. Although this be the very Marrow and strength of all his argument from Antiquity yet when tryed it will be found many wayes defective and unsound For clearing whereof I shall offer some things both to the Major and assumtion of this argument which will be found quite to breake the force of al his pretences this way For thus the argument must run If Diocesian Bishops by the Testimonies of the ancient fathers did exist in the primitive times and Catalogues of them are drawn by these ancients from Apostles and Euangilists then I must believe these Bishops to be of divine institution but thus it is by the Testimony of the ancient fathers Ergo I must believe Diocesian Bishopes to be of divine institution Now this being the argument in its genuine strength this pitifull pleader offers not a jott in proofe of the major proposition whose connexion he cannot but know the we all deny All that he offers is in proofe of the assumption which is also denved will be found very maimed I. To the Major I say that it is of very dangerous consequence to make that which men call antiquity or ancient custome the infallible rule and commentary as to the nature and office of Church officers mentioned in Scriptur Because 1. If mens practise must be the key and comment in this case so as we must not contradict or counteract it then why may not also human practise and profession of succeding ages determine as to every Scripture truth and duty therein held out 2. This were to set up a higher rule and tribunal then the Scriptures and to make our faith to stand in mans wisdome not in Gods and to make the Scriptures of a privat interpretation as if the Prophecy had come by the will of man For if I must believe no otherwayes anent the Scriptures relating to the offices of Timothy and Titus then according to the practise of supposed Bishops their successores and that they held no other offices but such as these supposed successores are said to have had then the Custome and practise of fallible men becomes to me the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ratio a priori and the chief ground why I believe these Scriptures to have such a sense and no other and so I give men a dominion over my faith and my faith herein resolves ultimatly into a human practise and Testimony of fallible men which is a principle no protestant will allow Next as to the asumption of the argument I would demand of this informer how I must be infallibly assured anent this universal judgment and practise of the ancient Church and of this true succession and how he will instruct the universal harmonius judgement of all the ancient Fathers in this great point viz. That such prelates as we have now were the first recipients of the ordinary power of government from the Apostles and Evangelists as their only immediat ordinary successors The topick of our Informers argument doth suppose the certanty of this mater of fact But to clear this will be found a hard peece of work Because 1. It is certan that many of the ancients wrote nothing many of their writings are lost many writings going under their name are counterfit most especially to this debate It were possibly none of the hardest Tasks to discover some writings here cited to be meer countersites How shall I know that the Testimonies of those who have written are not contradicted in this point by such men of their times who either have not written or whose writings are perished 2. There are many things which the Ancients speak of as derived from the Apostles and have had ane universal consent as farr as the knowledge thereof hath come to us which are acknowledged to be contrary to the word of God and the Apostolick doctrine as the error anent the vision of God that the Saincts sie not his face till the last day the error of free will which until Augustin opposed it was universally receaved the Millenary error anent Christs personall reigne upon the Earth a Thousand years called by Lactantius the doctrine of the holy prophets and christian wisdome which christians follow Iustin Martyr holds them to be no christians that dissown this and this is owned as ane Apostolick tradition So childrens partaking of the Lords supper and the necessity of baptisme was by Augustin
tradition which from the Apostles is preserved by Succession of Presbyters in the Churches They will alledge that they are more wise then the Apostles themselves or these Presbyters dare this man say that Irenaeus meaned that it was only a Succession of Bishops in these Churches who keep that Apostolick truth That Presbyters are successoures of Apostles properly and immediatly in the power of the keyes is evident by a full Testimony of ancient fathers â—…gnatius about whom our Informer makes a great bustle in several places of his Pamplet in the Epistle ad Trallianos calles the caetum Presbyterorum the Assembly of Presbyters Conâ—…unctionem Apostolerum Christi a meeting of Apostles of Christ. â—…rinaus lib 4. Cap. 43 holds Presbyteros in Ecclesia ab Apostolis successionem habere that Presbyters in the Church have there succession from the Apostles Cyprian lib. 4. epistol 9. asserts omnes praepositos vicaria ordinatione Apostolis succedere that all overseers so he calls Presbyters succeeds the Apostles by a vicarious ordination Ierome on 2. Chap. of mica cited by Cratian in decretis distinct 5. cap speaking of himself a Presbyter saith si in Apostolorum loco simus non solum sermonem eorum imitemur c. If we be in the Apostles place let us not onely imitat there doctrine but also their conversation Augustin serm 36. to the fratres in Eremo and these too Preâ—…byters call them sal terrae Apostolorum successores the salt of the earth and the Apostles successours 2. As it is certan that these Catalogue-drawers did not understand veri nominis epâ—…copos or diocesian Bishops properly suoh thogh speaking after the manner of their times they gave them all one name So it is equally certain that the Testimoyns out of which these Catalogues are patchâ—…d up are most inconsistent and contradictory to one another as the divines at the I le of Wight and many learned men have made appear and still the nearer the Apostles times the Catalogues are the more darke and various They make Peter Bishops of Rome a fable contradicted by many of the learned proved to be such but whither Clemens was first or Third and who or in that order next after Succeed them whither Linus or Anacletus is never yet cleared Some make Titus Bishop of Crete some Archbishop Some Bishop of Dalmatia Timothy and John are made by many Bishops at the same time Some say Policarp was first Bishop of Smyrna Some make him succeed one Bucolus some make Aristo first Some give Alexandria one Bishop some tuo at once See appendix to jus divin min. Evangel And wheras our Informer replyes that notwithstanding of this yet all agree that a Succession of Bishops was and that these different relations cannot impeach the certainty of the Succession it self no more then difference about the Succession of princes will invalidat the certainty of the History I answer if he could prove that they understood Bishops properly so called or his diocesians in all these Catalogues of Succession this evasion might have some Shew of truth but it is certain that they did not Patres cum Iacobum Episcopum vocant c. the Fathers saith Whittak de pontif quest 2. c. 15 se 2. When they call James Bishop or Peter take not the name of Bishop properly but they call them Bishops of these Churches wherein they stayed for some time and againe if spoken of a Bishop properly its absurd to say the Apostles were Bishopes fore he that is properly a Bishop cannot be ane Apostle Because the Bishop is set only over one Church but the Apostles were founders and overseers of many Churches After he tells us that non procul distat ab insania c. it differs little from madnes to say that Peter or any other Apostles were Bishopes And to this purpose he speaks afterwards at large Q 3. c 3. Sect 9. proveing this from the unfixed extraordinary nature of their message or mission who were to follow the Spirits conduct towards all places whither they were called Which argument reaches evangelists upon the same ground So that Whitaker will send our Informer to Bedlam if he mend not this information and revocke not this principle anent the Episcopacy of Apostles and Evangelists and the Succession of Bishops from them The learned Iunius also Contr 3. lib 1. cap. 23. not 3. mantaines ane aequivocall acceptation of the word Bishop in this matter so that his paralleel holds not as to a difference about the Succession of Kings when a Monarchy all aâ—…e Supposed such but here the difference and equivocation is as to the authority of these Succeeding Bishops When he shall read Scallig Animadvers 277. The Informer may possibly suspect Hegesippus his naration anent James yet jerom and Eusebius depend upon him Scalliger holds Clemens Romanus to be no better likwayes jerom Catol Scrip is a Counterfit not the true jerom since he mentions pope hilary who lived long after jerom was in his grave And wheras the Informer maks a great outcry of jerom that jerom begins at the Evangelist Mark in the Alexandrian Catalogue which our wâ—…itters leave out in their citations its easily answered that it needs not be putt in since the Author sayes A marko from or after him the Presbyters choosed out one whom they made president wherein it s evident that he speaks of this custom after Mark and excluding him who was ane Evangelist before and needed not be set up by the Presbiters And surely if the first Bishop was ane Evangelist the rest were very heterogenious to their first pattern Besides in that jerom sayes Presbitiri a marco unum ex se electum c. Hee clerly insinuats that it was the Presbyters thereafter no Mark that it for if by Marks Apointment these Bishops wereset up he could not attribute it to the Presbyters etion Should one say in Scotia a regimine presbit Anno. 62. Episcopi introducti Ergo ab isto regimine introducti were â—…t not a bad consequence Here I will offer to him the remarke of a learned author Repl to Dun 143. anent the Circle which he and his fellowes doe ryde in this argument Timothy and Titus c. had ane Episcopal authority why because their authority was not Evangelistick Why so because it was not to die with them why that Because it was ordinary and perpetually necessary And how is that proved Because if the Apostles being alive they behooved to instruct Timothy and Titus with Episcopal authority much more being dead this was necessary to the Churches But when it is inquired how this Episcopal authority is proved it is fairely assumed againe as if it were granted that the Apostles made them Bishops of Ephesus and Crete So the last medium is still that which is in Question Let him ponder also what Didocl p. 125. and 139 hath produced anent the confusion and contradictions in this Alexandrian Succession Tilen himself de pontif l. 1.
is It is not permitted to Titus pleasure to doe all things alone and impose upon the Churches what Bishops he pleased but he only bides him oversee the Elections as Moderator Paralleling this with Act. 14. 23. where he saith that Paul and Barnabas acted not soli pro imperio that is solely and imperiously to put Pastores upon the people who were not expetiti or electi desired and chosen but only probatos cognitos men approved and known Now let this man say himself doth not Calvin here clearely assert our principles and kill the diocesian Prelat with the sole power of ordination and jurisdiction So that nothing can be hence Inferred but that Church consistories were not then without order and that one did praeside among them for Calvine sayeth on the 7. verse porro locus hic abunde docet nullum esse Presbyteri Episcopi discrimen And he who praesided here was Titus whose Episcopacy we have aboundantly disproved As for that which he tells us Calvin adds that one was in authority over the rest at that time ergo what Had not Paul Barnabas Titus ane extraordinary authority commission for he sayes tunc or at that time wherein these offices did exist but will any think that Calvin could mean a Diocesian Prelats ordinary power which immediatly befor he was disputing against from the text He adds presently nihil tamen hoc ad prophanum tirannicum collationum morem This hath nothing to doe with the profane and tyrranicall Custome of Collations longe enim diversa fuit Apostolorum ratio for the Apostles case and ground was far different from this As for that which he addes of Calvins letters to a Bishop in the Church of Rome anent Episcopacy it self as being of God I can appeall this mans conscience if Calvin thought the Episcopall hierarchie with sole power of ordination and jurisdiction far less the popish hierarchy to be of God and whither he doth not in his Commentaries Particularlie in the places cited speak against the diocisian Prelat as such Besides we shall here tell the Informer that this passage which he cites as in the volume of his opuscul a page 72 upon a search of two several editions hath not been found As for his letter to the King of Pole approveing all the degrees of the hierarchie it is so grosly contrary to Calvins principles and writings that the Informer must excuse us not to take it upon trust from him Especially since he exhibits no part of that letter For his letter to the Duke of Somer set citted by Durel and the more to be suspected as coming from the hands of such ane enemy to his principles anent some fantastick ones fludiing to bring in confusion under the name of the gospell we think it a fantastick inferenc of our Informer to conclude therupon that he calls the asserters of Presbyterian governement such Although in that Epistle there is no express advice to remove Episcopacy what then there is no express advice for removing severall other Corruptions But the Consequence that therefore Calvine did not disowne these Corruptions the Informer himself will grant to be a gross non sequitur And some Considerationes of prudence might move to wave the express touching upon this head at that season when light was but dawning as to a Doctrinall reformation and the scales of the gross cimmerian darkness of popery were but begining to fall off from the eyes of that people Yet when the Informer shall peruse that Epistle again he will find that Calvine Leaves it not altogether untouched when heuseth these wordes habeat sane hoc locum In rebus istius vitae atqui alia prorsus est ratio regiminis Ecclesiae quod spirituale est in quo nihil non ad Dei verbum exigi fas est non est inquam penes ullum mortalem quicquam hic aliis dare aut in illorum gratiam deflectere that is let this truely have place in affaeires of this life but the Church Government which is spirituall is of a far other nature wherin there is nothing but what most be brought unto the touchstone of the word of God here I say it is not in the power of any mortall to gratify any thing unto others or to decline for their favour A passage which compared to Calviâ—…s principles in point of Church Government doth fully Antidot the Informers waspish extraction from this Epistle For his treatise to the Emperor Charles the 5i anent imbracing of a hierarchy tyed by a brotherly society among Bishops and by the bond of truth and united only to Christ I see nothing discrepant in it to Calvines or Presbyterian principles If Hierarchie be rightly taken and for this if their be indeed such a passage whereof I have no certainty I think we can in no reason suppose Calvine to owne the popish Government even as abstracted from false doctrine since he holds the very Diocesian Bishop to be contrary to the Apostolick Government far more the Hierarchy will any man say that Calvin did owne all the Locuâ—…s of the profane popish orders which are parts of this Hierachy so that Calvin by hierarchy and spirituale regimen doth indigitat the most simple and primitive Episcopacy which the fathers speake of and withall since the embracing of the gospell simplicity and truth which Calvin there desires as he sayes would quickly sned off all Luxuriant branches of humane invention in point of Government and like wayes since Calvin ownes the Church Government set down in Scripture as our pattern which doth as much reprobat the popish hierarchy as the doctrine therein set down doth their errors all this will preponderat towards Calvins meaning only a gospell Ministery which is equally distinct from Bishops in the popish and prelaticall mould As for the difference betwixt the primitive and popish Episcopacy I think there is indeed a great difference we have proved our present hierarchy to be as much different from it and soom what more if its erastian mould be taken in as the Informer must The treatise to Charles the fifth entituled de necessitate reformanda Ecclesia is so Generally cited by the informer without quoting either page or section that himself seemes half convinced of the Impertinency therof For Saravia his asserting that he defended Calvins opinion against Beza he said in this as in the rest more then he could prove For what he adds of Hooker and Durel who assert That Presbytery was settled at Geneva because another Bishop could not be gotten after the popish was away and that it was settled not out of a dislike to the hierarchie but because they were in ane equality and stood so being bent on reforming the doctrine I Answer His Authores in this assertion stand upon a very slippery and sandie fundation What Were there no able men to be Bishop after the popish Bishop was gone and had they not leasure sufficient to doe this
argument as signifing any thing against us Since the retortion thereof is so manifest and therefore nothing he hath said will impeach Calvine and Beza's impugning of Episcopacy whose impugnations of it will stand to all generations Moreover in this citation of that epist. to Bishop Grindal the Informer hath sued off the half of the sentence viz quod tu igitur coram istam quorundam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tamdiu pertulisti reverende vir ineo sane insigne patientiae ac lenitatis Christianae specimen dedisti quo majori c. and neer the close of the same letter Beza faithfully adviseth as the fittest remedy for removing offences ut in legitimo caetu ex uno Dei verbo abolitis semel papisticae tyrannidis vestigiis ea constituatur administrandae Ecclesiae ratio non quae huic vel illi adlubescat non quae veteri aut recenti consuetudine sed quae firmo verbi Dei fundamento superstructae piorum Conscientiis fatisfaciat in eternum perseveret that is that in a lawfull A ssembly from the Word of God onely all the footsteps of popish Tyranny being once abolished that Method of Church Government be established not which shall please this or that person not which is founded upon new or old Custom or the wisdom of the flesh but which being built upon the sure foundation of the word of God may satisfie the consciences of the godly and endure for ever Which rule and mould of Bishops would no doubt cashier and raze to the foundation the diocesian Erastian prelate whom he pleades for yea all the Prelates in Brittain For what he adds p. 87. It may be easily and without prejudice to our cause granted that God by his providence had made him a Iudge The Informer will not owne such ane Atheisticall principle as to deny that the Bishops civil government in England or pretended Ecclesiastick is not the object of divine providence or be so brutish as to conclude Gods approbation of usurping Tyrannes from his permissive providence in reference to their tyranny or usurpation else he will for ever destroy his loyalty and fealty either to the King or his Lordbishop That passage of Calvins letter to Cardinal Sadolet after citedby him p. 88. though admitted is a poor proof that he held Church Government to be alterable Certainly Calvin held the scripture parity to be the most ancient Government Vetustissimae Ecclesiae or of the most ancient Church for such no doubt he held the Apostolick Church to be Beside wee must tell him that this passage upon search is not found and as it is here expressed is very insignificant since by Vetus Ecclesia he may understand the Church after the Apostles time which early began to Corrupt the Government As for Salmasius his retracting his opinion as to Church Government it will no more Impeach the truth it self which he asserts then any other mans defection will weaken the sound Doctrine which he once held Would the Informer take this argument from the Papists if they should plead from the retractiones of protestants and from their writing for popery that the protestant Doctrine were not sound would he not say that their first practise or writings for truth will stand good and witnesse against them in their defection Though it may be a question whither that retraction be reall or not which Durel mentions and the Informer out of him p. 89. Especially this being another of our Informers mute citations which he keeps as he doth the state of the questions in these Dialogues under the Clouds pointing us to no page in that Answer of Salmasius to Milton We will not here stand to shew how that Salmasius eyes were blinded with Court-gifts and pensions having receaved no small summe from King Charles the second for his encouragement to that worke and several learned divines who best knew him think his literature more Considerable then his divinity was solid As for that place of Salmasius in his Walo Mess. c. 4. p. 253. cited page 90. the Intire sentence is Epistolae illae viz quae Ignatii dicuntur natae suppositae videntur circa initium aut medium secundi saeculi quo tempore primus singularis Episcopatus supra Presbyteratum Introductus fuit Whatever time this was it appears by what followes that place in Salmasius that about this time Church power began exceedingly to be Corrupted and Bishops exalted almost to ane equality with Christ and men began to plead a jus divinum for them for Ignatius In Epistola ad Trallenses asserts Episcopum venerandum esse sicut Christum quemadmodum Apostoli praeceperunt that the Bishops must be had in veneration as Christ as the Apostles have commanded and he cites the Apostles words but such as do no where occurr in our Bibles And certanly if there be no more truth in that relation anent his retraction mentioned by that author then their is soliditie in that ground of it which he alledges it is not worth the noticing For the confusions in England cannot with any shew of Reason be charged upon Presbyteriall Government which was never yet settled there And this Informer dare not deny the blest effects of truth and unity godlines which it hath had in this land as is acknowledged by Churches abroad and particularly in that passage of the Syntagma confessionum which he cites in the last dialogue If Blondel in callng Episcopacy most ancient doth except the more ancient Apostolick times which he pleads as exemplifying Presbyterian parity he gives it but the spurious after-birth of humane antiquity The same we say as to his passage cited out of Moulin p. 90. and if something of the humane proestos were granted to have creeped in ere Iohn went oft the stage will that commend it any more then that mistery of Iniquity and love of preeminence which the Scripture assures us was in Paules time and his Surely by no meanes Besides we must here again tell our Informer that this Citation out of Moulen is among the rest of his Mutes since he hath neither noted booke nor page But now from our opinion of the unalterablenes of Presbyterian government and our acknowledgment of the bringing in of a Proestos so early the Informer will involve us he sayes in one of Two great absurdities Parturiunt montes What are these the 1. is That that generation who lived shortly after Iohn was altogether ignorant of Christ and his Apostles minde anent Presbyterian parity else they would not have adventured to change the government But this absurdity is easily discussed for it lights equally upon the Instance already given of Israells defection in worshipping the golden Calf fourtie dayes sooner then 40. years or more after the holy patterne of doctrine shewed them upon the mount How often doe we find suddener changes in scripture of the divine Institutions How quickly after Ioshua and the elders did all Israell depart from Gods way and ordinances How quickly
opposition to prelacy So the Confession of the French Church Credimus veram Ecclesiam c We believe that the true Church ought to be governed by that policy which Christ hath ordained viz that there be Pastours Presbyters or Elders and Deacons And again we believe that all true pastours wherever they be are endued with equal and the same power under one head and Bishop Christ Iesus which strikes our Diocesian and Erastian frame of government starke dead Which is seconded thus by the Belgick Confess Art 30. All Christs Ministers of the word of God have the same and equal power and authority as being all Ministers of that only universall head and Bishop Christ. To thesewe might adde many other Testimonies of reformed divines as Calvin Piscator Marlâ—…rat on 1. Tim 4. 14. Tit. 1. 3. Zanch. de Statu Pâ—…ccat and Legal in 4tum praecep Chemnitius Loc. Com. Part. 3. de Eccles. Cap. 4. Exam. Concil Trid. part 2. de Sacram. ordinis pag. 224 225. proving also that Election and vocation of Ministers belongs to the whole Church Antonius Sadael Resp. ad repetita Turriani Sophismata par 2. loâ—… 12. Beza de divers Ministrorum gradibus Iunius Controv. 5. l. c 3. N 3. Chamierus Panstratia Cathol Tom 2. de Occum Pontis Cap 6. A 3d. Great point of Presbyterian Government in opposition to prelacie is the peoples interest in the election and call of Ministers And for this there is as full a consent of divines and Churches both ancient and Modern Severall of the forementioned Confessions clears this the peoples election and call being taken in together with Presbyters ordination Cyprian Epist. 68. is full to this purpose Plebs ipsa maxime habet potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi quod ipsum videmus de divina authoritate descendere ut Sacerdos sub omnium oculis plebe presente deligatur dignus atque idoneus publicâ—… judicio ac Testimonio comprobetur That is The people themselves have Chiefly the power either of Electing worthy priests or refusing the unworthy which mater we see even of it self to descend from the divine authority that the priest be set apart under the eyes of all in the peoples presence and as worthy and qualified be approved by a publick judgment and Testimony So lib 1. Epist 4. is full for the Churches libertie and right in elections The 4t Council of Carthage Can. 22. Requires to the admission of every Clergy man civium assensum testimonium convenientiam The consent of the citzens their testimonie and agreement Socrat l. 4. c. 25. sayes that Ambrose was chosen Bishop of Millan by the uniform voice of the Church In the pretended Apostolick but truely old constitutions of Clement lib. 8. cap. 4. The Bishop who must be ordained is appointed in all things to be unblameable chosen by all the people unto whom let the people being assembled on the Lords day N. B. with the Presbytery and the Bishops there present give their consent And a Bishop askes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Presbytery the peopleâ—… if they desire such a man to be set over them The Helvetick confession told us that the right choosing of Ministers is by consent of the Church So the Belgick confession tells us that Ministers Elders and Deacons are to be advanced to their office by the lawfull election of the Church Greg. Nazian orat 31. commends Athanasius his calling as being after the Apostolical example 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the suffrage of all the people Blondel clears this from a large consent of antiquitie page 379. to 473. And this is cleared also by a large consent of protestant divines Luther de potest Papae Calvin on Act. 6 3. Beza confess Cap. 5. Art 35. Musculus in Loc. com Zanch. on 4t com Junius Animadvers on Bellarm Controv. 5. l. c. 7. Cartwright on Act. 14. v. 23. Wallaeus Bullinger Wittaker See Mr Gilesp Misc. quest pag 18 19. Our first book of Discipline appoints to the people their votes and suffrage in election of Ministers in the 4t head And the 2d book Cap 3. discharges any to intrude contrary to the will of the congregation or without the voice of the eldership A 4t Essential point of Presbyterian Government in opposition to Prelacie is in relation to the office of the ruleing elder as appointed by Christ. This we cleared from Scripture and there is as cleare a consent of antiquitie for it and of modern reformed Churches and divines exhibited by our writers For this Ignatius Epist ad Trallianos ad initium pag. 66. edit oxon An. 1644. is cited Likewise Baronius in his Annals Anno 103. in the Gesta purgationis Caeciliani Felicis Tertul. Apolog. Advers gentes Cap. 39. Origen ontra Celsum lib. 3. Cyprian Epist. 36. Optatus lib. 1. pag. 41. edit paris An. 1631. Ambrose comment on 1 Tim. 5 1. And for modern writers Whittaker contra Duraeum lib 9. Sect. 47. Thorndicks discourse of religious assemblies cap. 4. pag. 117. Rivet Cathol Orthodox Tract 2. quest 22 Sect. 4 Finally Presbyterian Government as it stands in opposition to the present Prelacie in its Erastian mould and maintaines a spirituall authoritie in the hands of Church officers distinct from and independent upon the civill powers of the world hath as full a consent of the learned As Erastianism was first hatched by Thomas Erastus Physician in Heidleberg about the year 1568. And much catched up and pleaded for by Arminians since so it hath been impugned by a full consent of reformed divines who have fully proved it to be contrary to the rules of Church Government set down in the Scripture both in the old and new Testament and utterly eversive of the Gospel Ministrie and Church The eminent divines who have written against it are Beza who encounters with Erastus himself upon this point Zachriasursin Wallaeus Helmichius Triglandus Dr Revius Dr Voetius Appollonius and many others Especially the famous and learned Mr Gillespy in that elaborat peice entituled Aarons rod blossoming wherein the consent of the ancient and modern Church as to this great point of truth is exhibit See 2. book 1 Cap. pâ—…g 167. Now from all that is said Whither Presbyterian Government hath not the patronage of the purest Scripture antiquity and a full consent of the after purer times and of reformed Churches and divines in all the forementioned points of its opposition to the Prelacie now established Both in holding 1. The identity of Bishop and Presbyter as to name and things 2. Presbyters right of ordination and Jurisdiction 3. The peoples interest in the Election and call o. Ministers 4. The ruleing Elders office 5. The Churches intrinsick power of Government I leave to the Impartiall to judge And consequently of the vanity of this new Dialoguist His pleading upon this point A Confutation Of the Second DIALOGUE Anent the Covenants Against EPISCOPACIE Wherein the Informers reasonings against the
abjuration of the present Episcopacie in the National and Solemne League and Covenant and the obligation of these oaths in opposition thereunto are examined CHAP. I. Atwofold state of the Question proposed the one touching the abjuration of this Prelacie in either or both these Covenants the other concerning the obligation of these oathts against it That Prelacie is abjured in the National and Solemne League and Covenant proved at large And arguments offered to evince their oblidging force upon the present and succeeding generations THE state of the Question in the Second Dialogue is twofold 1. Whither the Prelacie now established by Law in this Church be abjured in the national and solemne league and Covenant 2. Upon supposition that it is abjured in both the one and the other whither the obligation of these Oaths stands against it yea or not Wee shall a litle touch For the 1. Our National Covenant sworne by King Iames in the the year 1580 and by the Estates of this land and many times thereafter solemnlie and universally renewed both by our Church and State doth clearly exclude Prelacie The passages thereof pleaded against Prelacie and wherein our obligation lyes are these 1. In General wee professe to believe the word of God to be the onlie rule the Gospel contained therein to be Gods undoubted truth as then received in this Land maintained by sundrie reformed Kirks States chiefly by our own Whereupon we renounce all contrary doctrine and especially all kind of Papistrie in generall particular heads as confuted by the word of God and rejected by the Kirk of Scotland 2. After a large enumeration of many points of poprie disowned upon this ground and vowed against as contrary unto the word of God and the gospel of Salvation contained therein Wee renounce the Popes worldly monarchie and wicked Hierarchie and whatever hath been brought into this Church without or against the word of God 3. Wee vow to joyne our selves to this reformed Kirke in Doctrine faith religion Discipline Swearing by the great name of God to continue in obedience to the doctrine and Discipline of this Kirke and upon our Eternall perill to maintaine and defend the same according to our vocation and power all the dayes of our life Now the obligation of this engadgement against prelacie is evident these wayes 1. All doctrines contrary unto or beside the word of God are here rejected and disowned All doctrines contrary to the simplicity of the Gospel recived and believed by the Church of Scotland and whatever hath been brought into this Church without or against Gods Word But so it is that the present hierarchy is contrary unto the Word of God both in its Diocesiâ—… and Erastian mould as hath been proved at large And we heard that this Church of Scotland since it received Christianity did stand for a long time under Presbyterian Government and untill Palladius was sent unto us from Pope Celestine never knew a Prelat Ergo Prelacie in its Diocesian Erastian mould is here abjured 2. Our Prelacie is condemned in that clause of the Popes wicked hierarchie whereby the Prelatick Government is most clearly pointed at which is evident thus 1. That the Government of the popish Church is prelaticall this man will not deny it is by Arch-Bishops Bishops Primats Deans c and it being distinct from his Monarchie for else the naming of his worldly monarchie had been enough and moreover it being ranked among these things which are brought into the Church against the Word of God and into this Church against her pure Doctrine which was clearly the sense of it that assemblies and the body of this Protestant Church entertained assemblies declaring that the Word Bishop was not to be taken as in time of Papistrie And Iohn Knox whose sense and Judgement herein was certanlie retained and upon all occasions manifested by our Reformers accounting Prelacie to have quid commune cum Antichristo Ergo Prelacie is here vowed against simpliciter and in it self considered 2. If he grant a hierarchie to be here abjured sure it must be abjured with the rest of the corruptions enumerat in that large list of them exhibited in this Oath Now these are abjured in themselves simpliciter as contrary unto the Word of God and the doctrine of this Kirke ergo So must a prelacie or hierarchie be in its self abjured under the same formalis ratio as thus brought in whither by the Pope or any other 3. This hierarchie is supposed in this Oath to be contrary unto the Discipline of this Church as well as the popish Doctrine is therein supposed contrarie to her pure Doctrine Now as we shall shew the Discipline which this Church then owned was Presbyterian So that that Discipline or Hierarchie which stands in opposition to Presbyterian Government is here abjured but so it is that prelacie ex se sua natura stands thus opposit unto it ergo by the hierarchie all prelacy is abjured 3. Prelacy is abjured in that clause where we professe to joyne our selves to this reformed Kirk in her Discipline as well as her Doctrine and vow and sweare adherence unto both Now that the Discipline then owned by this Church was Presbyterian Government or discipline Is evident these wayes 1. Discipline by generall assemblies and Synods having compleat parity of all Ministers with a joynt decisive suffrage is Presbyterian Discipline but this was that Discipline owned by our Church For her first Nationall Assembly compleatly Presbyterial in its mould was in the Year 1560. After which time untill 1580 When this Covenant was sworne there were many assemblies exercising their power 2 That is presbyterian Discipline which did judicially condemne prelacie as having no warrand in the Word and ownes no Church officers as lawfull but pastours Doctors Elders and Deacons But so it is that this was the judiciall decision of our generall assemblies long before this Covenant for the first book of discipline containing the Basis of presbyterian Government was approved and subscribed by this Church in the year 1560. And the Second book of discipline in Anno 1578. Which two books compleatly overthrow Prelacie layes down a mould of Presbyterian government And therafter in the assembly at Dundie Anno. 1580. Sess. 4. The office of a Prelat was particularly condemned by a solemne act and abolished as unlawfull and void of Scripture warrand ordaining under paine of excommunication such as brooked the said office to lay it aside as ane office to which they are not called of God and cease from preaching and administring Sacraments under hazard of the same Censure or using the office of a Pastour till they receive admission de novo from the generall assemblie Now in the nationall covenant this existent discipline being sworne to be maintained who can say but that Prelacie is most formallie abjured therein Especially if it be considered that in the same year 1580 This national covenant was sworn at which timethese
God all duties we are tyed to in his holy law 4. They are universall engadgements all were given up to God in them representatives and members of Church and state 5. perpetuall and reall as that betwixt David and Ionathan 2. Sam 9 7 21 7. That betwixt Ioshua and the Gibeonites Ioshua 9 18 19. And that Covenant Dent 29 14 15. Secondly the binding force of theseengadgements appears in the subject they affect as first our Church in her representatives and in their most publick capacity the solemne assemblies in both nations 2. State representatives Parliaments thus all assurances are given that either civil or Ecclesiastick lawes can affoord and the publick faith of Church state is plighted with inviolable tyes So that they must stand while we have a Church or state in Scotland both as men and as Christians as mmbers of Church State under either a rereligious or civill consideration we stand hereby inviolably engadged and not only representatives but the incorporation of Church and State are under the same Thirdly their binding force appears in the matter and Object 1. The immediatformall object is the Word of God the Truths and duties therein contained and whatever is contrary to sound doctrine and the power of Godlinesse under that formalis ratio is here abjured the eternall Truth of the Gospell as holden out in the Word and received in this and reformed Kirks being the grand rule in this engadgement whatsoever is approved by it is embraced and what is condemned by it is rejected under that notion 2. The more remote or materiall Object are the publick necessary great and important Truths and duties therein enumerat both of the 1 and 2 Table and the errours and sins therein abjured To the observation faith and obedience of the one and abhorrencie of the other under the formentioned consideration as either consonant unto or dissonant from Gods eternall Word and truth we stand perpetually and inviolably oblidged So that this Oath hath ane objective as well as subjective necessity contained therein a necessity of the matter in its own nature prior to the engadgement as well as a necessity of performance flowing from the engadgement it self which may take place in things indifferent Finaly the constantly obliging ends and scope of these engadgments joyned with the importance of the Matter subservient to these ends further discover their inviolable obligaions There is here both necessitas precepti necessitas medij finis The matter sworne to be performed falls under divine precepts the sins and evills abjured falls under divine prohibitions and these engadgements are both in respect of the matter it self and as to the professed scope of the swearers and engadgers levelled at continually obliging ends such as Gods glory the advancing of Christs Kingdom the publick good of Church and State the preservation and propagation of publick and personall reformation truth unity c. Now both these Oaths and Covenants are professedly entered into as perpetual engadgements and in order to these great ends for ever to be promoted as their tenor clearly holds out If any say what is all to the speciall obligation for Presbyterian Government and in opposition to Prelacieâ—… the Oath may be temporary or cassat and made void as to that point though there be never so great duties otherwayes engadged unto therin Ans This particular engadgement in relation to the maintenance of Presbyterian Government and in opposition to Prelacie runs along in the forementioned particulars 1. It falls under the obligation of the Oath vow promise and Covenant and under the forementioned qualifications of solemnity universality and importance Again 2. the publick faith of Church and State reaches this most evidently and is engadged for it And 3. as Gods great ordinance holden out in his Word Presbyterian Government falls within the compass of the object of these Oaths and under that consideration is sworne to be maintained and Prelacie as contrary therunto is abjured which contrariety hath been already cleaed Again Presbyterian Government is here engadged unto as subservient to these great ends mentioned and Prelacie is abjured as hindering the same as both the Word of God and experience hath convincingly discovered CHAP. II. The Informers arguments against the abjuration of Prelacy in the nationall Covenant fully examined Some reasons of his against an Oath in generall or this Oaths obligation upon the posterity weighed The Apologeticall narration and the Assembly 1638 vindicated WE come now to examine what this new absolver or pretended doubt-resolver hath presented to us against the oblidging force of these great engadgments The defence which he hath patcht up out of the survey of Naphtali and that pamphlet called the seasonable case consists of 2. parts 1. He denys that the bond of either the national or solemne league and Covenant doth strike against the present Prelacie 2. Upon supposall that the solemne league and Covenant doth strike against it he denys its obligation In both points we shall examine his grounds and trace his Method I the doubter alledges that Prelates are abjured in the Covenant so that none may warrantably owne the Ministry of such as preach under them as being perjured To this consequence he repones nothing but seems to admitt it and therefore we need not speak unto it Only he quarrells with the antecedent tells us that we would act more Christian Like if we were sparing in judging another mans servants who stand or fall to their own Master But the judging there forbidden being a rash felfish judging of others in things indifferent as meats or drinks and as Calvin paraphraseth the words de hominium factis pronunciare extra verbum Dei de factis aliorum non licet statuere secundum nostram ipsius estimationem sed ex verbo Dei That we are not to judge of mens practises by our own opinion but according to the rule of the Word and not without its limits Telling us further that Iudicium quod a verbo sumitur neque humanum est neque alienum that it is no human privat judgement which is drawn from the Scriptures the impertinent application of this passage premised Scripture to our case which is a practicall disowning of palpable perjury and turning away from such whose instruction causeth to erre from the words of knowledge is obviously evident This is no judging without Gods word but according to it to say that perjury is perjury sin is sin Our Informer by this new knack would take away all christian judgement of discretion yea by this his wide glosse all judiciall decisions whither civill or ecclesiastik Besides is not his pamphlet a judging of another mans servants Ministers and people as schismaticks and what not for disowning Curats upon the forementioned grounds Doth he not and all his party judge despise and persecute the people God for that which he calls indifferent and a disputable point at the foot of the page But to
their way and party is in many respects sinfull and since he Instances the protestants plea for separating from Rome on this ground knowes he not that the Papists tell us such stories anent union with the Church and that suffering without the Church is no Christian suffering to Iustifie their bloody persecutions which very well sutes his case And no doubt the protestants answer viz. That we are in Christs Church because owning his truth tho separat from their synâ—…gogue and that notwithstanding this pretence the blood of protestant Martyrs is in their skirts doth sute the case of Presbyterians in relation to their persecuters But the great charge followes viz. That we are guilty of as groundless and unreasonable separation as we shall read of in any age of the Church Bona verba How is this made good first saith he in casting off Christian love which is heart Schism 2. He chargeth with external Schism in separating in acts of Worship Now what if we recriminat in both these and retort this double charge upon himself Have they not disownd the Worship of Presbyterian ministers Professours and charged all to separat from them meerly for non-complyance with their perjured Prelats 2. Have they not for many years glutted themselves with their blood I may say sweemd in it upon the same very ground of forbearance as to prelatick complyance and endeavour by multiplyed lawes and Acts to root them out of the very nation Good Sir Pull this beam out of your own eye that you may see a litle clearer in this point But as to the first he sayes that we make difference in Iudgement as to lesser matters Church Government a ground of difference in affection as if they were no Christians who are not of our persuasion in these things putting thus lesser points into our creed and un unchurching and unsancting all who are not of our persuasion therin Ans. As to the first general charge I know none more guilty then themselves who are contending with fire and sword tanquam pro aris focis for these their lesser points and with unheard of rage seeking the ruine of all who dare not comply in Judgement and practice with them therein 2. I thinke Christian affection to their souls is best seen in opposing and testifying against their soul-destroying sins Thou shalt by any means rebuke thy neighbour and not suffer sin upon him is an old standing rule Levit. 19 17. And if they be even hated in so far as owning pernicious wayes it s no more then what David avowes Psal 139 21 22. do not I hate them that hate thee I hate them with a perfect hatred I account them my enemies I hate the work of them that turn aside it shall not cleave unto me 3. As we have not so learn'd Christ to call every thing lesser or small poâ—…nts which his latitudinarian party have the confidence to term thus so we know no point of truth reveald and commended to us in the word as the object of our faith and matter of our practice which should be keept out of our creed lest our saith become much shorter then the Scripture pattern And we acknowledge not the new patchment of mens Lawes which this man and his fellow-Conformists have annext to their creed and which can pro arbitrio make or unmake these his lesser points But he sayes that we unchurch and condemn all Churches in all ages who have ownd Bishops Liturgies festivals and othâ—…r ceremonies And if we make the removal of these things necessary to a Church there hath not been a a Church for above a 1000 yeares together Ans. To make the last part of this argument not to contradict the first he should have said that there has not been a Church without these things mentioned these 1600 years but the man seeing his first flight or Rodomontade too fierce he did well to clap his wings closser Upon a review of this page I find our Informer in this charge playes but the pityfull Camelion and versipellis for finding that this assertion of his that Christians of all ages since Christs time and in all places have own'd Bishops Liturgies Festival dayes and other ceremonies would have drawn upon him the heavy burthen and task of a proofe he lightens himself of this burthen by a prudent almost which in this point is very significant But his confining the liturgies Festivals and other ceremonies within the compass of the last thousand years sullied with all popish abominations appearing too simple inadvertency within the compass of two or three lines he secures it with a much above But lest this prove too broad reckoning he instances the second or third century from whence he sayes we beginne our reckoning as to Bishops festivals liturgies and other ceremonies But 1. why mends he the matter so inadvertently as to run in such a wide uncertainty as the the length of 200 yeares in that calculation which he imputes to us 2. I challenge him to shew what presbyterian writter did ever commence the original of liturgies and festivals with his blind c. of other ceremonies which will travell who knowes whither and include who knowes what from the third far less the second century I affirm that its more then he or any for him can prove that the Church hath had Bishops liturgies and festivals since Christ. Our writters have abundantly proved the contrary and we challenge him to shew either his Diocesan Bishops liturgies or festivals and the c. of his ceremonies in the first Apostolick Church or in these two ages mentioned by him That there were not diocesan Bishops then or long after we have already proved and far less Erastian Prelats For holy dayes let him shew by divine appointment any other then the Christian Sabath in the Apostolick Church if he can or in the first succeeding ages As for the feast of Esther it is acknowledged to have come in by custome after the Apostolick times For liturgies we assert that the Apostolick Church and age knew no such thing as set impos'd liturgies and formes other then Christs prescriptions as to baptism the Lords supper and that they pray'd as was suteable to the present action and circumstances of time place and persons If he betake him to the liturgies which are ascribed to Peter James Mathew Andrew Clement Mark Dionisius Areopagite and other Disciples protestant writers will stigmatize him for embracing that which they have abundantly proved to be counterfit That liturgies had no place for a long time in the Church is proved by clear testimonies Tertullian Apol. cap. 30. shews that in their publick Assemblies christians did pray sine monitore quia de pectore that is without a prescription because from their heart And in his treatise de Oratione sayes that there are somethings to be asked according to the occasions of every man that the Lords prayer being laid as a fundation its lawfull to build on that
seems saith he that some then out of pride and singularity for sooke the ordinary and orderly assemblies of Christians Ans. In this accusation his so much boasted of charity is evaporate What! No assemblies for worship in this Church but among Conformists doth he not thus unchristian and unchurch all the Assemblies of Presbyterian Ministers and professors for worship why persuades he people to forsake these Assemblies and who now Iudges another mans servant as he who brands withself-conceit ignorance and schism all these Assemblies of Nonconforming Ministers and professours who dare not comply with prelats Again how proves he that no assemblies are orderly except the Prelatical we avow our meetings for worship to be the most orderly according to our Churches established Reformation and that their Assemblies are cross to her constution order and union both in respect of Curats perjurious intrusion the doctrine which they deliver and their manner of worship which is cross to this Churches practice and appeintment his charge of schism and disorderliness is still begged but not yet proved and orderliness is with him described from Church-walls and as for unity why have they east out hundreds of Ministers from officiating because they durst not joyn with Conformists in their perjur'd course of defection if this man be not here self convict let any Judge Let him produce if he can in our Assemblies for worship that which is contraire unto the nature constitution and worship of the assemblies mentioned in that scripture and untill this be we may on better ground recriminat this charge upon his withdrawing people from the Assemblies of Presbyterian ministers and professors The Doubter alledges poorly that all do not forsake their parochial Assemblies but some do now and then keep them He Answers that tho all withdraw not in alike degree yet the least degree is unwarrantable that people advance from step to step that some after withdrawing from them hear only the Indulged or those who have still preached without conformity in their own Châ—…rches and within a little will hear none of them that some hear in their own Churches but will not communicat the reason whereof he cannot understand since the efficacy of Sacraments depends not on the Minister that the lest degree of separation makes way for a greater that Baxter in his cure of Church divisions tells of some turning separatists who dyed Infidels Ans. He hath not yet proved that the withdrawing which he mentions is a Sinfull Schismatick separation and we hope we have made the contraire appear As for these degrees he mentions we say 1. His cruell uncharitablness to Presbyterian Ministersis here very conspicuous since he will not allow them to be in the least heard or own'd in their present case and circumstances Certainly to tye up people from occasional improvement of the various gifts which God hath bestowed upon his ministers even in a setled state of the Church and in her right constitution is cross to that interest in one anothers gifts and graces which the members of Christs mystical body upon the ground of their union and communion with the head and among themselves are priviledged with And in impeaching this the Informer blotes himself with scismatick uncharitablenes of the deepest dye 2. As it s no strange thing that in such a time of darkness desertion and defection peoples recovery be gradual and sometime attended with Infirmities in the manner of duties incident to us while in time so the contrary influences of love to truth and duty and fear of hazard may be easily productive of such variety in the carriage of poor tender souls in this matter In a word the Lords supper being a special badge of our union and communion in and with Jesus Christ It s no strange thing that tender souls scruple to pertake thereof from men at so palpable a distance from him as Conformists especially while this ordinance may be enjoyed more purely elswhere He tells us that Schismaticks ar cut off from the body and receive no life from it and if we may drawan inference and retortion from this assertion the people of God must judge Conformists to be such For these effects of separation which Baxter mentions we bless the Lord the contrary effects of sound piety in many who were prophane while owning the Ministry of Conformists are convincingly apparent since they separated from them and the effects of backsliding from Gods truth viz. gross prophanity or atheisticall Indifferency in the matters of God are as sadly evident in those who having once own'd Presbyterian Ministers have return'd to Conformists again As for what he objects and answers anent some of their own party going to others then their own parish-Curats whom unless insuperable le ts hinder to attend their own parish-Church he would have his fellows not to owne We are not much concernd to notice any further then to tell him that parvo discrimine refert which of them people go to the best of them being as a briar and the most uprights as a thorn-hedge and all of them blotted with such Schismatick opposition to this Church her pure constitution and principles as may put it beyond debate with tender souls lovers of truth and duty that they ought adhere to Christs faithfull ambassadours rather then any of them The Doubter objects that its hard to hinder to go where we may be most edifyed since we must Cover the best gifts 1 Cor. 12. 31. He answers 1. that the Apostle is not directing private Christians what gifts in others to seek after for their edification but shews that though there are diversities of gifts and every one should be content with his own given for the edification of others yet that he should seek after better not in others but in himself Ans. Our Informer doth but trifle and deal deceitfully in his way of representing this and some objections ensuing for 1. He supposes that this is lookt upon in it self as a sufficient ground of adhering to Presbyterian Ministers without previous consideration of all the circumstances of our present case and also in supposing that nothing casts the ballance in the Judgement of the objecter as to profiting or not profiting but difference of gifts whereas we grant that the soveraign Influence of Gods Spirit who teaches to profit renders the means and ordinances effectual to salvation whether the Ministers gifts be great or small 2. We grant that tho people have a discretive Iudgement as to gifts and their own profiting and are to try the spirits yet in a setled state of the Church they are not to shake off the due regulation and guidance of a faithfull Ministry set over them in the Lord so as to be wholly at their own disposal herein since there is no Justling betwixt the privat discretive and publick Ministerial judgement in this matter 3. As in the tryall of Intrants not only the sufficiency but suteablenes of gifts for such a people is to be
foundation and basis of that tye but begs the question in the application thereof to his case I suppose a Presbyterian Minister should plead this to warrand his officiating among his people in opposition to the Curat incumbent that the people are bound to owne him as their Minister because of this reciprocal â—…ye That the Scripture obligations mentioned by the Informer lyes on him to be faithfull and diligent which while he is endeavouring according to his duty founded on his relation to his people the people are therefore bound to attend on his Ministrie to esteem him love him receive the Law from him and and not to discountenance nor discourage him by withdrawing to another Now let this man shew what he will answer to this pleading and his argument will quickly evanish before his own answer If he say that the tye is loosed let him instruct what that is which has in this case loosed it Sure neither the Magistrates violence nor Prelatick censures according to our Principles and the Doctrine of sound divines when this case is truely stated And if this divine tye stand what will he say Will it not 1. follow according to him that a Minister may be under a standing tye to his people and they to their Minister and yet the people for all this may not be obliged to hear him but another hie nunc and that warrantably without hazard of disobedience to these Scriptures and then he hath with his own hand cut the throat of his bare generall argument from the reciprocal tye Sure in some cases the tye may stand and yet the actuall reciprocal exercise or obligation to the exercise of duties may be hic nunc warrantably suspended in very many supposable cases as of Physicall impediments in the people and Minister hostile invasion Pestilence Imprisonment c. 2. If the tye or relation do stand and likewise all things which do immediatly dispose to the exercise of duty then the Prelatical incumbent is in this case an intruder and not to be own'd For I suppose he will not say that a Presbyterian Minister might lawfully officiat in his own Parish after the Curat is setled there for this would quite cross the scope of his Argument Now the Question betwixt the two competitors is which of them hath the prior lawfull and standing tye will he dare to deny that Presbyterian ministers had this and since he cannot shew how it is loosed nor prove it to be loosed this argument will militat not for him but against him Next as for what he cites out of Mr Durham on Revel pag. 105 106. anent this tye It is still extra oleas and nothing correspondent to his purpose untill he instruct that which is the basis and foundation of this Relation in the case of Conformists which he neither doth nor offers to do Mr Durham speaks of a special delegation from Christ of his speciall warrand and appointment to such a man to treat with such a flock Now sure this most be instructed from his Word and Testament as to Curats before he can from this make any shew of Argument For Presbyterian ministers do upon better ground lay claim to this special appointment in relation to their flocks upon which conformists have intruded yet this man thinks these ministers are not to be owned And since this deputation and appointment is with Mr Durham the foundation of the duty betwixt minister and people it must be cleard from the word in the case of Conformists before this passage of Mr Durham will afford any patrociny to his cause Then he tells us Thaâ—… Mr Durham holds that this obligation is not founded on meer voluntary consent Well let him mark this and then he must acknowledge that it s not meerly the Curats gaping consent for the fleece and filthy Lucre nor the peoples blind consent that will make them Ministers of these Congregations where they officiat What is it then that founds this relation The Scipture-commands saith Mr Durham 1 Thes. 5. 12. Know them that labour among you and are over you in the Lord. Heb 13. 14. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your souls as they that most give account c. But will this man deny that Mr Durham speaks upon the supposition of the Minister his having the Ministerial call and mission according to the rule of the Word to ground his pleading these Scripture commands and his special commission to such a people And that he look't upon the Presbyteries mission and ordination and the peoples call together with due qualifications and the visible evidences of Christs call in the person thus admitted as the foundation of this special relation to such a flock according to the Scripture pattern and the order and Government of this Church then established I durst pose his conscience upon the truth of this and whether Mr Durham did ever dream of a speciall relation to a flock in this Church resulting from a Prelates mission in a Method of perjury in opposition to our Covenant and sworn reformation without the mission and ordination of a Presbytry or the peoples call and in a way of intrusion upon the charges of faithfull Ministers violently thrust out by persecuting Prelats the men thus obtruded being for most part such as have nothing that may ground a reasonable or charitable construction of them that they are sent of God but palpable evidences of the contrary While in the mean time the faithfull Ministers are willing to cleave to their flocks and the flocks to them If he say that all the Ministers he pleads for are not such I Answer he makes no limitation of this Argument but pleads the foremention'd Scriptures and Mr Durham's Testimony universally and tells us in the next page that Mr Durham binds the people fast to the Ministers of their own congregations by this discourse he means to the Ministry of all the Conformists As for that passage of Mr Durham's Testimony after cited by him anent the Sympathy betwixt Ministers and flocks and the reckoning that will be made in relation to mutuall duties We think it pleads very strongly for that Sympathy that ought now to be betwixt Presbyterian Ministers and their flocks which Conformists have usurped upon and the mutuall performing of duty to each other upon all hazards in opposition to the Curats intrusion And if Paul aggreaged particularly the Gentiles slighting and grieving him by his particular delegation to them which was even as to the Apostle himself by the imposition of the hâ—…ds of the Presbytry Act. 13. 13. Presbyterian Ministers delegation to their flocks which was in this manner must needs stand and may be much better pleaded upon this ground then that of Curats Who are sent to flocks by Prelats as their own underlings and have nothing like Pauls delegation in their mission So that Mr Durhams arguments and the Scriptures cited by him are
perjurious usurpation in the way and manner therof may supply the want of a formal censure yet absolutly to deny that in any imaginable case whether of the scandals and intrusion of the minister the Churches incapacity to censure or the peoples clamant necessity and apparent advantages for their edification otherwise they were oblidged to own him still and that nothing but this declarative sentence could loose their tye would infer very dangerous consequences obvious to the meanest reflection Specialy that in performance of supposed duties flowing from the tye and relation they would crosse many scriptur-precepts enjoyning the contrary Shall Christs sheep follow the hireling and stranger and not beware of wolves and false prophets strengthen Covenant breakers and scismaticks because a perturbed Church cannot draw forth her censure If it be said that this will open a door for separation since every one displeased may pretend that scandals are of an highnature Ans. 1. The sinful abusive pretences of men is a poor argument to infringe any truth or duty 2. This absurdity may be retorted in the other extreme and under pretence of the mans exterior call who is not nor can be in a Churches disturbed state censured Christs sheep may as I said be given up to destroying wolves the means and opportunities of their edification lost and their soules exposed to most imminent hazard of perishing 2. There is a pure Ministry and Church free of their scandalls and testifying against them so that adherence to them rather then Curats is only a non-union to corruption or a scandalous party of Innovators who have gone out from the fellowship of this Church and such a separation negative or non-union as Mr Rutherfoord allowes Due right of Presbyt pag. 253 254. such as he sayes was the carriage of the faithfull in relation to the Donatists in Augustines time or a separation from the most and worst part not the least and best part as he there distinguishes calling the greatest corrupt part the Schismaticks As before the Jewes came to blaspheme there was no reason to joyn to them rather then the Gospel Church planted by the Apostles to which Mr Rutherfoord sayes converts were to adhere 3. We have heard that according to our principles and the tenor of our Reformation we are to look upon them as Schismaticks from this Church So that upon this very ground of holding and mantaining this Churches purity and union they are to be disowned by Gods people Our Informer will grant that abstracting from a Ministers being otherwise either censured or censurable he ought not to be followed in a Schismatick course to the ruine of a pure Churches union but is ipso facto to be left for upon this ground he pleads for disowning Presbyterian Ministers abstracting from their being any otherwayes censured 4. Are there not many Presbyterian ministers neither convict nor censured and whom he dare not call scandalous whose conversation and walk is both convincing and shining and such as discovers that Christ is in them that they have the masters seal and call to preach the Gospel who have entered into this Church by the door and are standing in a ministrrial relation to her yet he pleads for disowning them meerly because their Ministry is cross to the prelatick union and order So he must grant that Ministers may be disowned on this ground of Innovating upon and standing in opposition to a Churches establisht union and order abstracting from this formal censure As for what he adds of Judas it s very impertinently alledged here for his theft and other wickedness was as yet secret and not become open and scandalous which excepts him from the compass of this question which is anent Ministers guilty of open and avowed scandalls intrusion into the Ministry violent ejection of faithfull pastours and persecution of a pure Church None of which can be said of Judas But now followes in the next place his main objection and argument from the Scribes and Pharisees he tells us what great exceptions might have been made against their life and doctrine Math. 23. that they were â—…mies to Christ neglected Iudgement mercy and faith that they were proud hypocrites and that tho all which Naphtali sayes of Conformists were true and all sees it to be true and consequently that he gives them no other characters then what they put upon themselves and cannot more be charged with distemper for this then our blessed Lord in calling these Pharisees serpents and vipers or Paul in calling the Impostours of whom the Philippians were in hazard dogs evil workers the concision whose God is their belly whose glory is in their shame though they were as these pharisees gross in their lives and there were leaven in their doctrine they were not to be disowned since altho the Pharisees for doctrine taught the commands of men and took away the key of knowledge Christ in his sexmon on the mount purged the Law from their corrupt glosses yet Simeon and Anna turned not separatists Ioseph and Mary went up to keep the passover and Christ bids bear them tho with a câ—…veat 〈◊〉 beware of their leaven and their ill example Here he also tells us that he hath no pleasure to make a parallel betwixt the Pharisees and our preachers in long prayers and devouring widowes houses compassing sea and land to make proselytes tho we have given too much ground for these comparisons Ans. 1. To beginne with this last invective which he insinuats and Dr Burnet prosecutes at large in his trifling dialogues If I should rejoyn that its a foming out their oâ—… shame to make such comparisons and renders them too like these wandring stars to whom this is attribâ—… It were no great overstreach Dare he say that our Lord did simply condemn long prayers because he condemned making a shew of them or that faithfull ministers their travells to keep poor souls upon the solid foundation of our sworn Reformation and recover them from this plelatick corruption and apostacy is to proselyte them to be children of hell It may be with better ground averred that prelatists who are enemies to either long or short prayers in the spirit and plead for dead formes and lyturgies and who have dâ—…oured not widowes houses only but Gods house and Church in this land and who compass sea and land to proselyte this poor Church to the Synagogue or Rome are much liker these precedents in the above mentioned characters But 2. To his argument The pharisees were scandalous in their life corrupt in their doctrine yet the saints separat not from ordinances and Christ allowed to hear them This man might if he had been ingenuous have found this objection solidly answered and removed by severals I answer 1. It s more then he hath proved that the owning of the Pharisees ministry is here enjoyned because 1. The command of observing what they enjoyned will not necessarly infer this we may observe what morall Philosophers or papists bid
us do under such like restrictions and limitations upon which people are enjoyned to observe what the Pharisees prescribed we may observe what civil Rulers bid us do but not own them as teachers 2. There are many things in the context which seem utterly to repugn to this inference that our Lord enjoyned the owning or attending of their instructions as ecclesiastick teachers 1. He bids beware of their leaven or doctrine Math. 16. 12. joyning them with Sadducees who denyed the resurrection and erred fundamentally sure not to hear them was the best way to evite their leaven 2. It will be hard to prove that they were Priest Pharisees since all the Pharisees were not such as Nieodemus and Ioseph of Arimathea who were civil Rulers and consequently any command to obey them will no more infer hearing them preach then such a command as to council or parliament The thing commanded is not hearing them as teachers but only obebiencâ—… which may be very properly enjoyned as to civil Rulers 3. The qualities ascribed unto them such as their sitting in Moses chair who was King in Jesurun not Aarons who was the Piest their loving the chief seats in synagogues whereas if teachers their chief seat was knowen and appropriat to them their paying tithes whereas if priests tithes were payable to them these qualities I say seem to import that they were not priests and teachers by office that hearing of them or attending their ministry as such is enjoyned hearing of and atteding their Ministry as such 15. 4. Christ bids let them alone which sounds like owne them not as teachers He calls them blind leaders of the blind nay he calls them the stranger whose voice the true sheep hear not but rather the true shepherd Math. 15. 13 14 Joh. 10. 4 5. and such as shut up heaven against men and hindred such as were entring all which seem very inconsistent with a command of hearing them 5 Christ spoke to the disciples as well as the people in this precept Now its certain that neither the disciples did eyer hear them nor could they leave his Ministry nor is it found that Christ who came to fulfill all righteousness taught them to do so by his example Finally the words of this precept have for their scope to engadge to beware of the Pharisees infectious evills so that this command to do observe what they delivered as sitting in Moses seat which they did then possess is but by way of concession which supposes only that which he intended shortly to abolish and now would have improven for the best advantadge 2. Granting that they were to be heard I deny his consequence that therfore Curats in this our case are to be heard also the cases are very different and the disparity when cleared will discover his consequence to be naught from the hearing of the Pharisees to the hearing of Conformists I offer it then in these particulars 1. These Pharisees Ministry was not of it self actually exclusive of and a direct intrusion upon the Ministry of faithfull teachers Suppose they had chased away all Israels Lawfull teachers and by perjurious violence thrust themselves into their rooms would our Lord have bidden own or hear them If our Informer say so he will contradict himself and overturn the scope of his reasoning in this dialogue for he thniks that the ministry of Presbyterian ministers is intrusion and therupon pleads for disowning and not hearing them 2. He pleads for owning Curats as Christs ambassadours cloathed with his authority to deliver his message but Christ doth here at least for any thing he hath said from this text only enjoyn to hear the Pharisees interpretation and decision of that nations Municipal or civil Law anent the rules of external righteousness and civil policy which two are very different 3. Christ having guarded the Law from their corrupt glosses and the disciples from their snares shewes in this precept how to make the best advantage of that dispensation now ready to vanish away since he was shortly to erect a gospel ministry and remove all that legal dispensation and then none of them were to be heard But this man pleads for disowning our faithfull sent gospel ministers under a standing relation to this Church and the obligation of Christs standing command and commission to officiat and this in favours of intruding hirelings usurping their places and opposing these faithfull Ambassadours in their masters work and message Now who sees not the difference betwixt these 4. They were not in a stated opposition to a faithfull body of teachers acknowledged and owned by the sound Church of Israel and testifying against them seeking to root them out and together with them a reformation to which all had recently vowed adherence 5. There was no badge or Test of complyance wâ—…b all their abominations particularly appointed and enjoyned by the Rulers in this act of hearing them as there is in our case in relation to the hearing of Curats rendring as I said the not hearing them and adherence rather to a faithfull Ministry testifying against them a case of confession especially this difference will be apparent if our National vows and Covenant expresly obliging to adhere to these faithfull ministers in opposition to them and their course of backsliding be duely pondered Next as for what he sayes of Simeon and Anna Joseph and Mary their attending the temple Worship at that time as his argument there from is removed by what is said so to clear this further I add 1. That its wide reasoning from the godly their lawful concurrence with that Church now under the rust of old corruptions in what was good and sound to our deserting a sound Church and ministry to comply with abjured corruptions and Schismatick innovators reintroduced after they have been cast out 2. It s as wide reasoning from their not separating from Gods ancient Church upon the ground of corruptions to conclude against non-complyance with a party who are not our Church tho they usurp her name but are opposed and testifyed against by our true Church and ministry We in this case as I have said do not separat from the Church of Scotland her Doctrine Worship or ministry but only from Schismatick backsliders from the union reformation of this Church But in the case of these old saints worthies separation from the temple would have imported an absolute separation from the ministry Church of Israel In a word the utter impertinency of all his pleading in this argument and from these instances appears in this that he supposes that its meerly for Conformists personal faults we disowne ordinances administred by them as if they were therâ—… by polluted which has no more truth in it then that its meerly for Presbyterian ministers personal faults as pulluting the worship that he pleads for disowning them but upon the grounds of the present case and circumstances wherein they stand he pleads for disowning Presbyterian ministers and they
things in their case considered it would be a hard task to produce these Canons stricking against that practice as it stood circumstantiat considering their Schismatick withstanding the Reformation of this Church their Arminian principles and defending popish ceremonies which errors they had openly vented and obstinatly maintaind His next charge of ordaining others to perpetuat our schism is a manifest calumny this true organick Church is by this practice only propagating a lawfull pure Ministry in opposition to their destroying Schismatick course the blessed fruits whereof and its seals upon the hearts of the people of God have been conspicuous and we hope yet further will And no less gross is that calumny which follows anent our great mixt communions and admission of ignorant vitious persons unto them who he sayes by our way cannot be kept back there being none admitted at any seasons of this nature which have been very rare but upon sufficient testimonies from faithfull Ministers or elderships But is he not ashamed to object this to us whereof his party is so notoriously guilty who are knowen to admit yea call promiscuously to fill their empty tables which tender souls dare not approach unto both gross ignorants and notoriously profane to the shame and scandal of Religion and the contempt of that holy ordinance our persuading people not to owne Conformists as the Ministers of this Church we hope doth now appear better grounded then all this Informers persuasives to the contrary And that we have been in any measure succesfull in this speaks out Gods purpose not to leave wholly our married land For that which he cites out of Baxters preface to the Cure of Church divisions anent the odiousness of Sacrifices presented to God without love and reconciliation to brethren and of making a peoples communion in worship the badge and means of uncharitablness and divisions we thâ—…nk reconciliation and unionin the Lord needfull to acceptable worship but an association with scandalous Schismaticks and backsliders in their wickedness we think is no less dangerous and obstructive to reall fellowship with God in duty especially since God presses our coming out from among such and our being separat from the contagion of their sin with this motive that he will receive us And as there is a holy brotherhood which we must associat with in order to communion with God so there is a congregation of evill doers which we must hate Yea we have Davids precedency as is before observed to hate them with perfect hatred and count them our enemies But who can sufficiently admire these mens talk of unity and love who having first broken and divided this poor Church have been these so many years persecuting to the death yea sweeming in the blood of the faithfull Ministers and professors therof because hey durst not joyn to their way and conform to their supposed trifles and indifferencies Surely prelacy being the grand Idol of Jealousy provoking God against us and the fire which hath kindled all our combustions and hath opened the veins of the Lords servants and people to bleed for many years occasioned such horrid dispersion and unheard of oppression 〈◊〉 the Lords Church and people in our Land with what fâ—…ces can these upholders of this course look up to the God of Love and peace and how can they lift up sucâ—… bloody wrathfull hands to him But now his poor half proselyted Doubter confesses that there is much truth in what he has heard from this sound Informer forsooth And takes leave with a profest resolution to reflect upon what he has heard from him Whereupon he dismisses him with some of his healing advices prefacing with an admonition to seek illumination from God But had this man been serious in seeking this from God he had not vented in these trilling Dialogues such weak notions and reproaches against Gods truth and people But since his Doubter returns him no answer therunto I shall make up his want and shortly offer my thoughts upon them His first advice is not to be too confident of our own opinion as undoubtedly right but consider what he hath said in his three conferences Ans. If it be truth which we hold sure we most hold it by faith in a pure conscience and not be wavering and â—…ossed children We acknowledge not the Cartesian principle and the popish doubting way as found divinity and a confidence of truth is far from a self confidence As for what is offered in his three dialogues I hope it is sufficiently antidoted by what is said above so that it needs not in the least demurr our persuasion 2. He will not have us think the matters of difference to be the substantialls of Relegion since persons of both persuasions may keep love and fellowship without renting the Church and neglecting ordinances because greater differences have been and communion not broken thereby Ans. If these matters contraverted be not substantialls why then have they made such a substantiall bloody contest for them â—…anquam pro aris focis for so many years and if communion must not be broken in a Church upon this account why have they rent and overturned our Church and persecute away so many godly Ministers and professors for these things denying all fellowship with them in their worship for adhering to their principles and disowning this course of conformity had prelatists suffered Presbyterian Ministers and professors to stand as they were in this Church to enjoy their principles and to follow their respective duties according to their stations faithfull Ministers to preach and Gods people to enjoy the fruits of their Ministry he might with some colour have pretended to this desire of union and fellowship but since prelatists have cast them out and do so cruelly persecute them for adhering to their principles and owning these duties this pretence is nothing but deceitfull hypocrisy He adds that the difference is but a matter of government and if we separat for this we would have separat from all Churches since christianity began and if Christ held no comunion with a Church where prelacy was he hath then seldom had a Church and hath been for many years a head without members Ans. This is nothing but a renewed repetition of groundless assertions for how proves he that our plea is a matter of government only surely their course strikes at the whole of our Reformation as hath been cleared Again how proves he that we would have separat upon this ground from the Church for so long a time tho it were granted that our plea were only a matter of government since he hath not yet produced instances of such a prelacy as we have in any Church Besides since the Informer pleads for prelacy upon pretended Apostolical precepts and practices and yet doth here vilify it unto a meer punctilio and makes it such a sorry business as persons may come and go upon it at their pleasure we may easily discover what nimble Sophisters and
gospel and an enemy unto it Jackson thinks with sevral others that Paul said I knew not that he was the high priest c. ironically it being very improbable that Paul knew not the high priest and suppose it were so he knew him to be a ruler as his own words discover so that it was no excuse to say he knew not the high priest because as a judge it was against the law to revile him Therfore saith Jackson upon Exod. 22. 28. though they understood Paul as excusing himself yet he spoke by way of derision as disdaining he should be accounted Gods high-priest who carryed so Which saith he is the more probable when it s considered how far he was from having any true right to that place and power to which he pretended when Christ had abolished the legal priest hood Calvine on that place of the Acts sayes It s not credible that Paul-gave him his wonted honour Cum abolita esset adventu Christi sacerdotij Majestas secuta turpis prophanatio Paulum quasi integra vigeret solito honore prosecutum fuisse qui tunc sub Pontificum titulo nullo jure dominabantur after the majesty of the priest hood was abolished by the coming of Christ and vile prophanity attending it that Paul as if the priesthood had been standing intire would have allowed the wonted honour to such who under the title of Priests were governing without any right or just title And having objected to himself that we must not contemn civill Magistrats in his answer he puts a difference betwixt civil Mahistrats and Church rulers Inter civiles Magistratus saith he ecclesiae praesules aliquid est discrimenus there is a difference betwixt civill Magistrats and Church officers tho the administration of civil Rulers be perverse and confused yet he tells us the Lord will have subjection remain intire Sed ubi spirituale regimen degenerat solâ—…untur piorum conscientiae ne injustae dominationi pareant c. spirituall government being degenerat the consciences oâ—… the faithfull are loosed from obedience to an unjusâ—… domination But our Informer will say that I thuâ—… set the authors of jus divinum minist anglic by the earâ—… with Calvin and Iackson as to the sense of this place I answer they do not peremptorly and positively assert that Paul acknowledged him as high priest buâ—… onely that many think he did 2. Hence the weight of their conclusion subjoyned viz. that corruptions cleaving to Gods ordinances null them not is not laid upon this solely nor positivly at all even as a partial but onely as a probable ground And the conclusion it self when admitted will never reach his designe as is above cleared Again admitting that Paul acknowledged his providential title or jus in re as to a civil office and administration at that time as it may well have its own weight in reference to the premised conclusion civil rule as such being Gods ordinance which is not made null by corruptions so upon the the difference of civil from sacred rule this concession will not legitimat or infer an acknowledgment of the spiritual part of his administration Thus we have seen how well our Informer hath acquit himself in his arguing from the English Presbyterians Let us next consider how he reasons from Mr Rutherfoord in that peice forecited if at least we may call that which he here offers a formal reasoning since he offers not as I said any argument from these citations but sure we will find that these passages will burn his fingers In that piece scil Due right of presb page 220. to 256. There are several passages which this man takes hold of as 1. He asserts that separation from a true Church where the orthodox word is preached and sacraments duely administrat is unlawfull and vindicats 2 Cor. 6. Ans. This in Mr Rutherfoords sense will plead more for the Presbyterian Ministry professors then for Conformists whom he will not say that Mr Rutherfoord will look upon as our Church in such a case as this since as we heard he holds that in case of such a breach as we have now the pure Church remains with the smaller stedfast number and that the backsliders from truth and purity tho the â—…reater number yet really are the Schismaticks And â—…n this sense we are to understand him when he sayes that this separation as to worship will not infer an absolut separation And his allowing non-union where there is not sufficient cause of separation in the case of purer to be joyned with and his admitting a partial separation because of a partial corruption of ordinances Peacable plea page 121. will much more plead for a total non-union in this our case and I dare appeal this Informer if Mr Rutherfoords words Peaceable plea page 122. doth not suite our case and express such a sense therof as we have explaind and if he would not have applyed that which follows unto our present prelatick party had he seen our Church in this posture and in her present circumstances viz. we separat not from a true Church or her Lawfull Pastors when we separat from hirelings and Idolshepherds who will not go before us and whether he would not have thought and called Conformists so Thus page 148. concl 6. he tells us we may separat from the worship when we separat not from the Church So that its evident that in Mr Rutherfoords sense we separat not from the Church of Scotland nor her worship while withdrawing from Curats in attending the Ministry of Christs faithfull ambassadours In the Next place this Informer presents to us these passages further in that peice mentioned viz. page 233. the personal faults of others are not sufficient ground for separation That the disciples thought not the society unclean for Judas sin though they knew one of them had a Devil Again page 250. It was not Lawfull to separat from the Pharisees preaching truth page 253. The Godly separated noâ—… from the Church when the altar of damascus was seâ—… up things dedicat to Idols as Lutheran images are called Idolatry 1 Cor 10. 34. Idolatry by participation and the cup of devils yet Paul commandâ—… not separation and the table of the Lord was there I answer this is already removed by what is said above as to any conclusion for his cause which thiâ—… loose disputer doth not so much as offer to draw ouâ—… upon these citations 1. Unless he prove the Conforming party to be the true Church of Scotland to which in this case we are obliged to adhere or 2. If we can prove that according to our Churches Reformation Presbyterian ministers and professors are the true organick Church of Scotland though the persecute smaller number which according to Mr Rutherfoord is very easy for he sayes that in case of defection truth as life recools to the smaller hidden part Due right page 253. In either case I say this will plead more appositly for adherence to
Presbyterian Ministers and their Assemblies Next Mr Rutherfoords scope is to prove that personal faults corrupt not the worship which wee deny not but as we have above cleared this falls utterly short of reaching his conclusion as to the owning of Curats untill he first prove his forementioned suppositions wherein he begs the question and this principle or assertion of Mr Rutherfoord will plead more strongly for not disowning Presbyterian Ministers untill this Informer prove his suppositions and disprove ours in this debate In a word the impertinency of all his citations here appears in this that there is no reason whereby he can ward of this argument its reaching adherence to Presbyterian Ministers and inferring a conclusion of owning them but it will either first be retorted upon himself or secondly the universality of the argument and the conclusion deduced there from so limited as utterly to irritat his design since he must acknowledge that there may be a Lawfull separation from a Ministry and ordinances altho not polluted by personal scandals And therefore this principle in every case will not infer a separation to be unlawfull far less a non union and he must acknowledge that to argue the unlawfulness of a separation or non-union in every case or meerly from this ground that there is no pollution of ordinances by the personal faults of Worshipers or administrators thereof is a gross petitio principii ignoratio elenchi and which his case supposeth many things which are to be proved as 1. That Conformists are this Church 2. That this practice of disowning them as now circumstantiat is properly a sinfull separation 3. That Prelatists have the best right to officiat as Ministers in this Church 4. That we have no other reasons for a non-union but this pretended pollution of ordinances and that we stand obliged upon this supposition that the ordinances are not thus polluted to joyn to them rather then Presbyterian Ministers And since this principle will prove them all to be Schismaticks who disowne Presbyterian Ministers in preaching the Gospel it will follow therefrom that our Informer is in this pamphlet pleading for Schism or else he must so limit this position as thereby his conclusion against us shall be utterly cut off as is said Fourthly he presents unto us that passage page 254. where he shews That the godly in England tho separating from Bishops and Ceremonies did not separat from that Church and approves their doing so and in keeping communion therwith in unquestionable duties the contrary whereof he charges upon these separatists against whom he reasoneth telling us ibidem that if a Church be incorrigible in a wicked conversation and yet retain the true faith it s to be presumed that God hath some there to be saved that Christ himself is where his ordinances are and some union with him the head that though a privat scandalous brother ought to be cast off yet not an Orthodox Chuch Ans. 1. The Presbyterians have all this to plead for pleoples adherence to them untill this Informer prove that the prelatick party are our nationall organick Church which will be ad Kalendas Graecas 2. Mr Rutherfoord all along states his question as to separation from a Church so and so polluted Ergo he spaks not of a Schismatick destroying Innovating party or a separation from them rather then a sound Church contending against them which would quite invert his scope and arguing and the ground and hypothesis thereof For I pose this man what if a party of acknowledged Innovators cast out the true Ministry and should plead this passage of Mr Rutherfoords for their schism and the peoples adherence to them sure he would charge them with begging the question as we do Consormists in this point and would acknowledge that Mr Rutherfoord pleads nothing for them Fiftly Mr Rutherfoord sayes ib idem We may separat from the Lords supper where the bread is ador'd and from baptism where the sign of the cross is yet we are not to separat from the Church Ans. We may hence collect that in Mr Rutherfoords principles 1. We are to separat from all contagious Worship tho not absolutly corrupt 2. That this is no separation from the Church while there is a purer Church Ministry to be joyned with and to which we were joynd 3. That a fortiori a non-union unto and disowning of a backsliding party who are not our Church is warrantable because of their contagious corruptions especially when as is said the opposition of that party to the true Church is so virulent Mr Rutherfoord tells us there that we separat not from the Church when we profess to hear the word and allow the truth of Doctrine and do not Presbyterian professors owne the true Doctrine of our Reformed Church while hearing and and adhering unto her faithfull Pastors Beside Mr Rutherfoord tells us that there may be cause of non-union where there is not sufficient cause of separation as Paul separat not from the Jews till they blasphemed yet saith he there was no cause why people should joyn to that Church before that time since they had the cleaner to joyn with viz. That of the Apostles Ergo in case of a true Reformed Church her being divided and rent by a backsliding destroying party opposing her Authority union and purity introducing Innovations into her contrary to her Reformation and vows and casting out her faithfull Ministry who dare not comply with their wicked course a non-union to them and adherence rather to that faithfull Ministry contending against them is no sinfull separation from the Church nor a separation at all by Mr Rutherfoords doctrine Sure the Presbyterian party are in our principles the cleanest Church to whom therefore Mr Rutherfoords allows to adhere page 253. But here the Informer presents us another passage in that same place to repell what is said viz. that he asserts there is no just cause to leave a less clean Church if true and to go to a purer though one who is a member of no Church may joyn to that which he conceives purest Ans. This makes as little for him as any of the rest for 1. He is still speaking of a Church thus intirely less pure in comparison of a more pure But blessed be God their prelatick impurity has not infected all our Church their being 1000 of Ministers professors who adhere to the truth This man will not say that this will plead for a peoples adherence to a party of Schismatick backsliders Intruding upon a pure Church Introducing Innovations into her and ejecting her faithfull Ministry as Conformists are now doing which will be yet more convincingly clear if we consider 2. that Mr Rutherfoord layes much weight upon this that a man is already a member of that Church which is less pure but we cannot be said to be hactenus members of and on this ground under a prior obligation of adherence unto a party of Innovators and