thoughts to justify his Church by the Marks of Unity Antiquity Succession Universality c. nor does he pretend that his Church has any Authority from Christ to oblige him to believe her rather then any Fanatic Congregations for she her self will not suffer him to say so What does he then Truly he leaves his Church in a desperately forlorn condition he never thinks of her though she be the only subject of the Question but diverts his fancy to spy out faults and errors elsewhere comforting himself with a perswasion that he has found them though perhaps he be not able to penetrate into or truly state one Point of Controversie And this illogical Method Sir you have observed in this Discourse and as illogical as it is I am confident you cannot mend it for doubtless if you could have furnished your self out of your Anti-catholick Writers or if your self could invent any specious Arguments to recommend to any mans liking or esteem the Church of which you profess your self a Member you would not have neglected the doing it you would not have been quite silent in the only matter which you were concerned to prove Now Sir I am not desirous to take advantage against you from your past Method of proceeding Take your own time to think better of it and if it be your pleasure that we may have a third Meeting I shall willingly expect a direct Answer to my Question Why are you still a Protestant Prot. I will through Gods Grace seriously think on this and I will either provide a satisfactory Answer as you require or give you leave to conclude that my eyes are opened to see the true Catholic Church of which I will live and dye a faithful Member §. 110. Cath. Gods Holy Spirit direct you And be pleased to take this Admonition with you That unless you can find out a way to demonstrate the Protestant Church in whose Communion you have hitherto lived to be a true Member incorporated into that Catholic Church which unless the Creed be false had a being before Protestancy was heard of and so continues the same your Soul is in evident danger unless you forsake her It will necessarily follow also except such a Demonstration can be produced that without further examination all those special Doctrines which you have hitherto triumphed in as Christian Verities are certainly illusions and errours because not professed in the same Catholic Church which alone is the Pillar and Ground of Truth and whose Teaching whosoever will not hear and believe is by our Saviours sentence to be esteemed as a Heathen and Publican §. 111. And indeed to deal plainly with you it was more then you could justly challenge in the present occasion that I should have the compliance so far as to attend unto the charges and accusations laid by you against the special Doctrins of the Catholic Church for such accusations could have no place in an Answer to be made to the Question proposed in the beginning Indeed if I had now as may be done another time precisely imputed Heresie to you it might have been proper for you to justifie your particular Tenents and also to recrimimnate But it was only the Crime of Schism that I laid to the Charge of Protestant Churches and therefore asked you the Question Why are you a Protestant Now to this Question thus intended no Answer can be proper but such an one by which you shall endeavour to demonstrate that the Protestant Church in whose Communion you live is not Schismatical that it is not divided from the Catholic Church which never did nor ever shall fail and that it has all the Marks which declare a Church to be Catholic This you have not done and no wonder Since you can find no help for such a purpose from any of your Writers And yet till that can be done all other Disputes are to no purpose neither can Catholics be obliged to engage themselves in them or if they do so it is only to shew you that being evidently and confessedly Schismatics you are also Heretics §. 112. Now Sir Since I am assured you will find it utterly impossible for you this way to excuse any of your lately erected Churches from the guilt of Schism if still notwithstanding you will resolve to persist divided from that Catholic Church which has been deserted by them all my fear is that for the stupifying of your Conscience you will think it necessary to make use of that lately so cryed up Socinian Opiat I mean that desperate Principle That Schism is one of those Theological Scar-crows with which those who hold a party in Religion use to fright away such as making onquiry into it are ready to relinquish and oppose it if it either appear erroneous or suspicious Whereas whosoever shall with a true and unpretended Conscience perswade himself or but suspect that the Church requires a Profession of false Doctrins or conformity to unlawful Practises and of this each particular person must be the Iudge in sâ—ch a case he not only may but is obliged to separate from the Church and by such Separation not he but the Church is guilty of Schism Now Sir is not this Prinoiple a Preservative of soveraign virtue against all remorse of Conscience for Schism or Heresie Prot. But what would you have a man so perswaded or so suspecting Errours and Misdemeanors to be in the Church to do Cath. I readily enough grant that in such a Case the man must neither profess nor do any thing against his present conscience And consequently I do not say he must separate but if the Church for his obstinate disobedience shall cast him out he must be patient But the truth is his case is deplorable for every way he is exposed to extreamest danger If he conforms against Conscience he sins mortally by damnable Hypocrisie If he refuses to conform that is to submit his private perswasion or Suspicion to the Teaching of the Church I mean the Catholic Church his sin is yet more heynous being a rebellious Disobedience to the highest and most Divinely established Authority upon Earth from the guilt of which Disobedience no dictates of consoience how unpretended soever can acquit him Otherwise none but false Hypocrites and subtle pretenders of conscience can be guilty either of Schism or Heresie yea the prouder menace the more self-conceited of their own judgments and more addicted to entertain suspition and contempt of their Superiors the more innocent they shall be So that a full perswasion or it seems but suspition that any Heretical Doctrines are Orthodox will excuse all Heretics even the most blasphemous from all guilt and danger and moreover at the end of the account the Governours and lawful Teachers appointed by God in his Church in case the excommunicate such Orthodox Hereticks must alone be esteemed Heretics and Schismatics only for teaching Truth and doing their Duty §. 114. Indeed if he who called Schism a
a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
wilfully misinterpret Scripture to their own destruction especially in Points Fundamental which are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them Cath. Well Sir I have at present done asking Questions and now better enabled by what you have said will endeavor to give you a fuller Answer to the Question you proposed in the begining viz. Why are you a Catholick §. 11. First then Sir I am a Catholick because I believe that Christ the Author and Finisher of our Faith is infinitely both good wise and omnipotent His goodness inclined him to come down into this world to save mankind by establishing a Church upon earth which should remain till the end of the world and in which the way to Heaven should be so taught as not only the Wise and Learned but the Poor Simple and Ignorant also should by Faith and Obedience be made partakers of Eternal Happiness Now his goodness having designed this his wisdom enabled him to appoint ways and means proper to effect that his blessed Design and omnipotence to make those means successful § 12. The general efficacious means to accomplish this are first The revealing his whole will to his Church which we acknowledg to be sufficiently done in Holy Scripture as to all points absolutely necessary to Salvation though in all those points not so clearly to every one that without a Teacher their sense may not be mistaken Neither doth Scripture make an express discernment of what points are necessary And secondly The assisting of this his Church with fidelity and a constant performance of her duty in declaring all necessary Divine Truth manifested to her to her Subjects with a command that all Christians should obey and submit to what she shall teach or enjoyn them God having thus revealed his whole Will to his one Catholic Church it necessarily and evidently follows 1. That Ignorance or Error in any Points of Christian Doctrine necessary to Salvation is damnable 2. That a Seperation from this one Church is damnable also upon what pretence soever the separation be made §. 13. Now to avoid eternal Misery thus threatned by Error or Schism only one of these two ways is possible 1. By ones own light to penetrate into all Mysteries so as to be most firmly assured of a right understanding of all necessary verities revealed by God in Holy Scriptures 2. Or out of a distrust of our own abilities to submit our Reason and internal Assent to Authority The former of these ways all Sects divided from the Roman Church and among themselves do uniformly take being forced hereto by denying any visible Society of men to have any authority obliging the Consciences of their Subjects and by conseqence they have all if any an equal Title that is indeed equally none at all to challenge belief one as well as another neither can they rationally without deserting their common Ground condemn or excommunicate one another The latter way we Catholics only take and as we think prudently and surely §. 14. For Sir I beseech you to consider what a busy laborious task you have undertaken by being a Protestant of what Sect among them soever you are Before you can promise to your self any rest of mind in the Peculiar Fundamental Doctrines of your Sect your Conscience must satisfy you that you have not embraced a Religion by hazard but after a diligent sincere and effectual examination of all the Reasons and arguments not only of Catholicks submitting to Authority but also of other Sectaries who proceeding your way of interpreting Scripture by a private light do condemn your Doctrines or whose Doctrines you condemn To be able to do all this how many Volums of Controversy are you obliged to read and examine Besides this it will be absolutely necessary that you be perfectly studyed in all the Books of Scripture with the best Commentaries on them both Ancient and Modern since you ground your Religion upon a sense of Scripture which perhaps not any of them will allow and then in equity you are to examine their reasons for it Now what one mans age will suffice for all this business though but in one or two Points controverted and though the party were learned and had never so much leasure What then shall ignorant persons do who yet make up the greatest number of Christians What shall Trades-men and Day-Labourers do who can scarce allow from their necessary Vocations any time at all dayly even to say their Prayers yet it concerns all these upon the venture of Eternal Happiness or Misery not to forsake or embrace a Religion without a sufficient Examination made by themselves of the grounds of it since they are told and believe it that they must trust to themselves only because no external Authority upon Earth can require from them a submission of their judgment inasmuch as according to their general fundamental Positions no Authority is infallible §. 15. Now whereas you said That all Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them If this were true yet since neither the Scripture nor you your selves do clearly express which and how many Doctrines are fundamental every tittle of Scriptures must be read and examined by every one of you for fear a necessary Doctrine should chance to escape you But to demonstrate the groundlesness of that your Assertion I desire you to reflect on the prodigious multiplicity of Sects swarming in this age all which ground their Belief upon pretended clear Texts of Scripture alone you will then scarce find one Article of Christian Faith exempted from their Disputes There are not wanting who deny the Mistery of the Holy Trinity the Divinity and Incarnation of our Lord the Divine Personality of the Holy Ghost Some absolutely deny Freewill whilst others exalt the power of it so high as to affirm Divine Grace unnecessary to its best Operations Some affirm our Nature to be so incurably polluted by Original Sin as that all the best actions of the Regenerate are Mortal Sins Others will acknowledge no Original Sin at all Some affirm Baptism necessary to Salvation even of Infants Others reject Infant-Baptism and Calvinists assert that Infants without Baptism are sanctified by their Parents faith and that some Infants dying though baptized may be damned Some believe mans Soul to be mortal and that it perisheth with the Body not having any Knowledg or Sentiment after death Some confine God to a determinate place in Heaven and also deny his Prescience of future Contingents Lastly some deny an Eternity of torments in Hell Surely you will not deny most of these to be contrary to Fundamental Doctrines of our Faith yet all who maintain these Tenets and all Sectaries who contradict them do ground themselves upon express Scripture which to you seems so clear You cannot be more confident that you have light on the true sence of Scripture than they of a
contrary sense and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other Can it then be prudence in any man to hazard Eternity upon his own sence of Scripture the half of which perhaps he never read Commonly a Text or two concludes every point controverted when perhaps there are twenty Texts unconsidered by the Person which would rectify the sence he gave to the former Is that Guide to be trusted which has seduced such infinite Multitudes opposing calumniating and hating one another All Mankind may be witness that this Private Light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one Sect. In a word is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the Goodness Wisdom and Omnipotence of God to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all Christians to unity of Faith in all necessary Doctrines and also that he hath promised to conserve his Church in this Unity to the end of the world and on the other side to affirm withal that the only Means appointed by him to produce this Unity should be a certain Means of destroying Unity and which if made use of by all Christians the gates of Hell would be too strong for him so that there would scarce be left a Church upon earth §. 16. Truly Sir I do not know through what Spectacles you look upon this principle of Protestancy which hath been indeed the constant Principle of all Ancient-Herities But to me it appears most horribly gastly and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of Lucifer the foul Spirit of Pride and contention who presents to unwary Christians once more this fruit of the Tree of the knowledg of good and evil to be aspired to by our own endeavors and contrary to Gods appointment Since therefore as hath been said there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of Divine Mysteries contained in Scripture yet so contained as that the Texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood viz. First A man 's own private Reason And Secondly Authority of Superiors by Gods appointment placed in his Church All the Reason I have enforces me to chuse this latter way because thereby I shall avoid inconstancy otherwise unavoidable as I am taught by St. Paul who sayes Eph. 4. 11 12 c. That therefore God placed in his Church Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers for the edification of the Body of Christ a Succession of which is to last till we all meet in the Unity of Faith c. This Almighty God did says he To the end we should not be like children wavering and carried about with every wind of Doctrine through the wickedness of men and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour the only remedy whereof in the Apostles judgment is submission to Authority To which submission also I am obliged by an express command of God Obedite praepositis vestris c. Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are set over you and submit your selves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account And Reason thus divinely enlightned obliging me to submit to Authority I should renounce the same Reason utterly if I should not prefer that Society which by an evident Succession from the foresaid Apostles and Pastors makes the best claim thereto yea which alone claims an Authority obliging the Conscience and that is the Catholics Church the Authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world For though all divided Sects preume to contend with her for Truth of Doctrines challenging that to themselves yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of Authority which manifestly appears in her And you may know this Catholio Church from others because it only challengeth an universal and absolute not conditional Obedience and you may know the Sons of it by their professing to give to the Churches Authority such Obedience §. 17. Now Sir consider how agreeable to Gods goodness and wisdom how suitable to humane capacities how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our Faith on Gods Word as interpreted by the Catholic Church The far greatest part of Christians are too weak to maintain Disputes yet God loves the Poor and Ignorant at least as well as he does the Rich and Learned and takes care to bring them to Happiness without Learning sharpness of wit curiosity and study of knowledg Consequently he has chalked out a way to Heaven in which the Ignorant and Simple may walk securely And in what other way can these walk but in that of obedience to Authority This doubtless is that way foretold by the Prophet Isa. 35. 8. saying in Christs Kingdom There shall be a high way and it shall be called a holy way No polluted person shall pass through it This shall be to Christians a streight way so that Fools shall not err in it Now have Sectaries found out this streight way in which Fools cannot err Sectaries I say who have framed a confused Labyrinth in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings where every one wanders as it were with a dark Lanthorn in his hand and either stumbles into or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best and leaves it also when he thinks good not taking direction from any other or not much caring for such directions By this means we see how that not only Fools and Ignorant but even the most Judicious amongst Sectaries following their own light do walk all their lives in quite contrary ways yet all believing that God by the Scripture directs them §. 18. Manifest therefore it is that Gods way being only one holy streight High-way not any Sectaries but all and only Catholics have been by Almighty God brought into it In as much as they distrusting the dim Light of their own Reason for discerning the Verities of Faith contested borrow the Churches Light thus exercising Christian Humility in not presuming upon their own Abilities and Christian Obedience in submitting to the Guidance of those Teachers and Governors whom God hath placed over them and who are to give an account of their souls These Heavenly Virtues are and have always been equally practised by both Ignorant Catholics out of necessity and by the most Learned out of Duty Yea those glorious Lights of Gods Church the holy Fathers and ancient Doctors though they were Fathers and Doctors to others yet to the Church herself they were humble Children and Disciples learning only from her and teaching others only what they had learnt from her This surely is a streight High-way and a Holy way too and whil'st the most Simple among Catholicks walk in this way they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most Learned of those which trust to their private light For they are guided by all the lights that is by the whole Body of those which God hath constituted Teachers in his Church in all ages and
by consequence they are exempted from an Obligation of examining particular Controversies which their Teachers duty is to examine for them §. 19. Neither is it natural Reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent Authority before our own simple judgments but as hath been said a Divine Light also appearing in Scripture and in constant Ecclesiastical Tradition the best and safest Interpreter of Scripture There we find the Church called The Pillar and Ground of truth a City at one in it self and set upon a Hill which cannot be hid There we read That every Tongue which shall rise against her in Iudgment she shall condemn that Gentiles shall come to her light and Kings to the brightness of her Rising And that the nation and Kingdom which will not serve her shall perish There we shall find that the least Supream Tribunal on earth to determine Controversies amongst Christians is the Church whom whosoever will not hear is to be esteemed as a Heathen and a Publican such an unappealeable Authority has God established in this Church And by vertue of this Authority General Councils representing the whole Body of Church Governors challenge from all Christians a submission not only of Non-contradiction but also of internal Assent under Penalty of Anathema which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of Christs promises That he will lead his Church into all Truth Jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform Profession of Truth that the Gates of Hell shall never be able to prevail against her Mat. 16. 18. which Gates of Hell are by the interpretations of the Fathers Heresies §. 20. These irrefragable grounds from Prudence and Scripture have we Catholics for directing our Faith On the other side not one single Text of Scripture nay moreover not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy Fathers which may rationally incourage a Christian to prefer his own sence of Scripture before that of the Church whereas whole Books have been written by them of the Churches unity authority indefectibility and universality Now Sir who can resist who can hold out against such a Battery Prot. Well Sir how prevalent soever this Discourse may seem to you to be against us whom you style Schismatics it will prove of little advantage to you Roman Catholics for although we grant that there is but one Catholic Church out of which there is no Salvation yet this does not prove the Roman to be this Church the Roman I say which is but a particular Church and she being as we are perswaded guilty of teaching and practising many false Doctrines and manifold Superstitions and Idolatry we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her §. 21. Cath. Sir this is the ordinary artifice of your Protestant Writers when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of Heresie and Schism to impute to the Church many Errors and sinful Practices in which foresooth their tender consciences dare not joyn This they do to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from Schism till after a full discussion of all other Controversies touching differences about any particular Errors supposed to be in the Church which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand considering mens general incapacity and if undertaken by the Learned would scarce ever have an end But this is most unreasonable because though it were true that the Church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching Errors yet are Protestants justly and unanswerably charged with Schism in a high degree in as much as they remain divided not from the Roman only but all Patriarchal and all other Churches existent before their Separation So that if there be such a Crime as Schism they are manifestly guilty of it and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their Communion To make this charge good against them it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all Christians and of themselves also viz. That there always has been is and shall ever remain a Holy Catholic Church of Christ on Earth from which Separation upon any pretence whatsoever is damnable This Church therefore wheresoever it is was in being when they divided from the Roman and can they pretend that they are Members of this Church There is not a Society in the world older than theirs or other than the Roman Church with which they entertain any communion at all to whose consession of Faith they will subscribe and to whose Laws and Government they will submit but on the contrary condemn its Doctrines Laws and Government The consciousness of this forced the principal Patriarch of Schism Calvin to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world Now it being impossible for Protestants to excuse much less to justifie their manifest Schism to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular Points of Doctrine As long as the charge of Schisin subsists uncleared by them and this Schism grounded on pretended dangerous Errors in the Catholic Church being Schismatics they are Heretics too and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to when they would raise particular controversies since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates §. 22. Schism therefore in its lowest qualification considered only as disobedience to lawful Ecclesiastical Authority being even in the judgment of learned Protestants a most horrible Sin a tearing in pieces the Mystical Body of Christ There are one or two special Aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in Protestants I mean those Reformers abroad and antiently in Scotland Calvinists Presbyterians Lutherans Anabaptists c. They were once Members of the Roman-Catholic-Church which they then esteemed to be that Church which they believed in the Creed It hapned that their Prime Patriarchs Luther Calvin Zwinglius c. having conceived some discontent either against the Governors or some prevailing party in that Church which obstructed their profits or against the Laws of it which restrained their lusts after Women grew angry and began to quarrel with the Church her self and to study to disgrace her for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her Doctrines Then Pride and revenge inspiring them against these they made objections yet not so oft against the Churche's own Doctrines as the Tenents of particular Catholick Writers and most oft they directed their most bitter Invectives against personal miscarriages for all which the Church must be answerable And after all this publishing Liberty from Laws which restrained Concupiscence they quickly found Favorites and Followers thus Sects were first composed But if there had been in any of them either Humility or Love of Peace in case they had been perswaded there had been Errors in the Church her self to which they could not subscribe they would not thereupon separate
to be Holy when it teaches Truth and Holiness So is the Universal Church Holy and so is every Member in its Communion Since that which makes it a Member in its Communion is its agreement with the whole in Doctrines taught by it both regarding Faith and Manners And from hence it follows that to ascribe Error and Corruption to any Church which is acknowledged a Member of the Catholic Church and for such pretended Errors to break off Communion with it is to do the same to the Universal Church and consequently to contradict an Article of Faith Now that this is the condition of the English-Church is manifest For since all Christians are under pain of damnation obliged to live in Communion with the Universal Church by being obedient to it's Laws and Governors as also to believe that this Universal Church is at this day extant where can an English Protestant hope to find this Church if not in the Roman Communion In the Greek-Church he will find the same Doctrine which in the Roman he calls dangerous Errours as besides the confession hereof by several Protestant Authors formerly hath been of late beyond all gainsaying evidenced by the indefatigable industry of Monsieur Arnaud in his two late Replies to Claude a Calvinist Minister from the Authentick Testimonials and Declarations both of several late Synods and of many Ecclesiastical Persons of eminency both in the present Greek and other Eastern Churches And besides these he will find other Doctrins which we all condemn as Heresies Then for pretended Corruptions in practice the same practices which he stiles Superstitious and Idolatrous principally touching the Blessed Sacrament he will find in the Greek Church far more distastful to him And as for other Eastern Sects besides the same Practises he will find himself obliged if in Communion with any of them to assent to Ancient Universally condemned Heresies Nestorianism Eutychianism Monothelitism c. §. 26. Prot. But no doubt God hath his Elect Servants among them all who are truly Orthodox as we are with whom we may be said to be united in Spirit Cath. Truly Sir this is a meer pittiful dream to talk of Communion in spirit with hidden Christians to you invisible as you are also to them This renders all the Discourses of the Holy Fathers touching the Churches Visibility and Unity utterly impertinent Yea this evacuates the Predictions of all Gods ancient Prophets foretelling the Extent Glory and Victories of the Kingdom of the Messias and it makes void the Promises of our Saviour touching his Church What meaning therefore can you frame to your self when you say You acknowledg a perpetually existent Catholic Church and a necessity imposed on all Christians to live in her Communion §. 27. Pr. We acknowledg our selves in Communion with all Christian Societies as far as they teach Truth and practise according to Christs Law Cath. So you may be said to communicate with Iews Turks and Insidels for some Truths are taught by all these and some of their practises are lawful But is this such a Communion as the Church Catholic anciently or as the First four General Councils required It is manifest that at the time of your first Separation there was not one Society of Christians in the world to whose Profession of Faith you would subscribe in whose Religious Worship you would joyn and by whose Laws you would be governed So that all Christians then living and visible in the World were to you as Heathens and Publicans and you the very same to them Were your first Reformers in Communion with them Certainly you will not say that the Roman Grecian and Oriental Churches though they will not deny but you teach some Truths and sometimes practise virtues do live in your Communion that is That Persons mutually excommunicating one another do at the same time live in one Communion or that Pastors live in Communion with those who renounce Obedience to them and abhorr the Faith taught by them §. 28. P. Why Sir would you have us allow such a way of Communion as you seem to understand to Societies which we firmly believe do teach damnable Errours and enjoyn Idolatrous or Superstitious Practises Cath. No Sir by no means But since there is on earth a visibly holy Catholic Church placed as a City upon a Hill with which you must under pain of damnation communicate in such a manner as Christians did in the time of the first four General Councils I adjure you not to rest where you now are in Schism from all visible Churches preceding your Separation but to find Her out and having found her out to depose an overweening conceit of your own abilities to censure and condemn her Doctrines and with Christian Humility to submit your self entirely to her Guidance by which means you will be sure to find rest of mind §. 29. Prot. This seems to me a task too hard to be undertaken Cath. That which makes it seem so hard to you is perhaps a secret whisper of Nature and self-love telling you that this may expose you to many worldly disadvantages or if not this a strong prejudice by education deeply imprinted in your mind against the Roman Church the condemning and reviling of which is the subject of most Books you read and of most of the discourses and Sermons you hear I name the Roman Church because I am perswaded that if you should happen to entertain any Doubts of the security of the Grounds of Protestant Religion it would not be the Grecian nor any of the other Oriental Churches whose Religion you would put in the scales against it but only the Roman from whence you had your Christianity your Church her subsistence and within the Limits and Iurisdiction of whose Patriarch you live Do I not judg aright Prot. Yes §. 30. Cath. Then Sir though at present you should have no doubts of any Doctrines taught by your Church or rather in it for your self will not allow her the Title of an authentic Teacher neither does she challenge it yet since you have voluntarily fixed your self in such a Church which not pretending to an infallible direction from God cannot with any shew of reason tell you that you are bound in conscience to believe any one of her Doctrines nor that it is a sin for you to leave her Communion and to chuse that of any other Society which you may like better for then all Christians should as well as you be obliged to joyn themselves to the English Church only Endeavour I beseech you with a mind as disinteressed as may be to hearken to what may be alledged for the Right which the Roman Church has to challeng your Obedience so as that the refusal of such Obedience would be an heinous Sin For this Right indeed She challenges and She alone No other ancient Church hath and no par ticular Sect doth or can pretend to it Prot. I am content §. 31. Cath. First then consider that
abilities or blind passion against all Guides establish'd in Gods Church if Divine Revelation consent of Antiquity manifest Reason and even experience by outward Sensation may be fit to guide me I must not be a Protestant I must of necessity be a Roman Catholic For Divine Revelation interpreted also by consent of Fathers and Councils informs me that Christ hath established on Earth a visible Church which is one holy and Catholic the common Mother and only authentick Teacher of all Christians that this Church shall remain such to the end of the World and that whosoever is not a true faithful Member of this Church is thereby cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ and shall be eternally separated from Him Again evident Reason shews that no Person or Society can be esteemed a Member of any Church any other way than by believing its Doctrines and being subject to its Laws and Government In the third place the testimony of our Senses assures us that not any of our Modern Sects do assent to the Doctrines or are governed by the Laws of any Church at all and consequently not of the Catholic Church which had a being at their first pretended Reformation therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows that all the said Sects are manifestly guilty of Schism Moreover since the Roman is that Church of which the first Reformers once were Members and by reforming made a separation from it and since the same Church does constantly profess the same Doctrines which were once held by the Universal Body of Orthodox Christians and again since there is not any visible Church upon earth to which all marks of the true Church assigned in Scripture and by the Holy Fathers can be so applied and whereto the Antient Prophecies and the Promises of Christ have been so perfectly accomplished as the Roman it will evidently follow that the present Roman Catholic Church ought to be acknowledged that one Holy Catholic Church which we confess in the Apostles Creed and by consequence whatsoever Doctrines in opposition to the Faith professed in this Church are taught by Protestants they are thereby without any particular discussion legitimately prejudged to be formal Heresies Now Heresie and Schism being by all even by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves acknowledged most dreadfully wasting Crimes of which I cannot possibly be guilty whilst I adhere to the Roman Catholic Church nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its Communion I conceive I have without any necessity of engaging in particular Disputes given you rational Grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient Answer to the Question first proposed by you viz. Why are you a Catholic §. 40. And for a conclusion Sir give me leave to tell you that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the stigmata brands of Heresie and Schism by entring into an endless Dispute about particular Controversies to be stated out of Books For till you be able to shew a present Visible Orthodox Church the Governors and Teachers whereof are derived by a continual Succession from the Apostles which Church in all those Points for which you have separated from the Roman teaches as you do and either governs you or is governed by you Till this I say be done your busying your self about particular Disputes will never produce to you Peace of mind but rather encrease in you Pride and Malice against others Your first most necessary Care therefore must be to establish your self in such a Church as can oblige you to believe her for by no other way can you nor your Teachers avoid Self-condemnation as manifest Innovators There are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy Scriptures and Fathers to distinguish the true Catholic Church from Congregations of Hereticks and Schismaticks such are Unity Succession Universality Converting of Nations Miracles c. And these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the Church Now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you and not one but belongs to the Roman Catholic Church §. 41. When you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you all you can say is That you teach truth and that you duly administer the Sacraments that is you would prove your selves to be a true Church because you say you are a true Church for not the marks but the essence of a Church consists in teaching Truth c. But marks of his Church easily observable by all men were appointed by God to lead the Simple as well as the Learned to discover that Church which only teacheth Truth and duly administers his Sacraments Not any such marks do you pretend to shew And as for this your miscalled single Mark the Unlearned cannot possibly judg whether you do indeed teach Truth c. and the Learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg And though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach Truth c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of Schism but that you communicate with that one holy Catholic Church which you believe in the Creed it would notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you These things considered since I am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point I believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare according to the method observed here a tolerable general answer sufficient to vindicate your Church in case I should by way of exchange propose to you this Question Why are you a Protestant Prot. Judg not Sir too hastily Perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect In the mean time I thank you for your Charity And God willing I will seriously reflect on what hath been said Cath. Farewel Sir and if you think good cast your eyes upon this little bundel of Citations out of several ancient Holy Fathers of the Church who will tell you that upon the very same grounds which have been here discoursed on they were good Christians and Catholics Prot. If they tell me so I shall not easily contemn what they tell me Farewel ✚ ¶ TESTIMONIES of HOLY FATHERS regarding The Substance of the foregoing DISCOURSE §. 1. Of the Churches prepetual Existence Visibility c. OBscurius dixerunt Prophetaeâ—de Christo quam de Ecclesia Puto propterea The Prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning Christ than concerning the Church The reason hereof I conceive to be because they foresaw in Spirit that men would make divisions and parties and that they would not much dispute about Christ himself but that they would raise great contentions about the Church Therefore that was more plainly foretold and more openly prophecyed concerning which greater contentions would in succeeding times
Temple These therefore so many and so great bonds keep a believer firm in the Catholic Church although by reason of his natural dulness and perhaps his sins he does not manifestly see and penetrate the depth of Divine Truths But among you Heretics who have none of these advantages to invite or hold me nothing is heard to sound but a vain promise of true Doctrine c. Firmissime tene et nullatenus dubites Hold most firmly and doubt not at all that every Heretic or Schismatic baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost if before he Dies he be not joyned and incorporated into the Catholic Church he can by no means be saved though he should give never so many Alms yea though he should shed his Blood for the Name of Christ For neither Baptism nor liberal distributing of Alms nor the undergoing death for the Name of Christ can profit any one to Salvation as long as Heretical or Schismatical lewdness perseveres in him which leadeth to eternal death §. 3. Of the Catholic Churches Authority Of interpreting Scripture Saint Augustine informs us that a certain acquaintance of his derided the Disciples of Catholic Faith by which men were commanded to believe the Church not being taught by demonstrative Reasons what was true To satisfie this Friend he wrote his Book De Utilitate credendi Ecclesiae in which he writes thus It is fitly instituted by the Majesty of Catholic Discipline that those who come to Religion should before all other things be perswaded to believe the Church But you will say were it not better that Reason should be employed to move me which without any temerity I might follow withersoever it leads me Perhaps it might be so But since to come to the knowledge of God by Reason is a matter of so great importance and difficulty do you think that generally all men are capable of searching into the Reasons by which mens minds may be brought to a knowledg of Divine Mysteries Or are the greatest number of men such or but a few I suppose you will answer But a few If so do you think that the knowledg of Religion is to be denyed to all the rest who have not so piercing a Judgment It is a miserable thing to be deceived by Authority but it is much more miserable not to be moved by it If Gods Providence does not preside over human affairs there will be no cause why we should trouble our selves about Religion We ought not therefore to despair that some Authority is constituted by God by which those who walk doubtfully may be raised up to God Puto si quis Sapiens extitisset I conceive that if there were extant a wise man to whom our Lord had given his Testimony viz. that he should be directed by him and if that man were consulted by us concerning this controversie we should not at all doubt to do whatsoever he enjoyned us least we should be adjudged to oppose our selves not so much to that man himself as to our Lord Jesus Christ by whose Testimony he is recommended Now such Testimony doth our Lord afford to his Church Haeretici qui cum in unitate Heretics who though they be not in Catholic Unity and Communion yet Glory in the title of Christians are compelled to oppose Orthodox Believers and they have the boldness to attempt the seducing unskilful Christians by force of disputing and Reasoning whereas our Lord came with a peculiar Medicine against this when he enjoyned not reasoning but Believing to all people But Heretics are forced to take the way of arguing by reason because they see themselves in a most abject Condition if their Authority be compared with Catholic Authority Therefore they endeavour to prevail by a pretence and promise of Reason against the most unshaken Authority of the firmly established Church This is the uniform and as it were regular temerity of all Heretics But the most clement Emperor of our Faith has fortified with the Citadel of Authority his Church both by numerous Congregations of People and Nations and the Chairs of his Apostles He also by a few piously learned and truly Spiritual men has armed his Church with most copious provisions of invincible Reason But the more secure and rational Discipline is That those who are ignorant or infirm should be received within the Castle of Faith depending on Authority that they may be defended by those who can combate with the weapons of most powerful Reason Noc nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere Neither durst we affirm any such thing viz. that Hereties ought not to be rebaptized if we were not strengthned by the unanimous Authority of the universal Church To which Authority no doubt Cyprian who held the contrary would have submitted if in his time the truth of this question had been established by the examination and decision of a Plenary Council Proinde quamvis hujus rei certe de Scripturis Canonicis non proferatur exemplum Although no express example can be brought out of Canonical Scriptures touching this Point of rebaptization yet the truth of the same Scriptures in this matter is held by us when we do that which has pleased the Universal Church which the Authority of Scripture themselves does commend That since the Holy Scripture cannot deceive us he whosoever is in fear of being deceived by the obscurity of this question may consult the same Church about it which Church the holy Scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate Aliud est cum Authoritati credimus It is one thing when we believe submitting to Authority and another when we yield to reason To believe Authority is a way very compendious and without labour Et si nulla ratione indagetur Whatsoever is from Ancient times preached by our Orthodox Faith and believed through the whole Church though by no search of reason it can be found out and though by no speech it can be clearly expressed yet notwithstanding it is to be acknowledged most true Haeretici sunt sibi arbitri Religionis Heretics are to themselves judges of Religion Whereas the proper work of Religion is the Duty of Obedience to Authority Non ad Scripturas provocandum est We must not disputing with Heretics appeal to Scripture Neither is the debate to be constituted in things in which either no victory at all will follow or an uncertain one or little better than uncertain For though the success of examining Scriptures should not be such that each party should have no advantage over the other yet due order requires that that should be first proposed about which at present we are to dispute viz. to which of the parties the preaching of Faith belongs who have right to the Scriptures from whom and by whom and when and to whom that Discipline has been delivered by which men are made Christians For where the Truth both of Christian
Discipline and Faith shall appear to be there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions and all Christian Traditions Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia Amongst such things whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein is a mark of most insolent madness Scire sufficit It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church Dicet aliquis si Divinis eloquiis It may be demanded how if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures Sentences and Promises of whom some are false Apostles others false Prophets and all of them Heretics What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do How shall they discern truth from falshood in interpreting Holy Scriptures Hereto we answer according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine THE SECOND QUESTION BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT §. 45 CAth. Sir Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse Prot. Yes Cath. And have you found either in Scripture Tradition Councils or Holy Fathers any warrant to remain divided both in Doctrine and Discipline from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth and at the same time to profess notwithstanding a Belief of One Holy Catholic Church out of whose Communion there is no Salvation Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours Quotations I mean asserting the Authority of particular or new-erected Churches independent on others Cath. Then since it seems both Scripture Tradition Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you Why are you still a Protestant §. 46. Prot. Sir I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance But hitherto not having been able to find such an one I must be content to stay where I am For as for the Roman Church to whose Communion alone you would invite me she appears to me so wholly depraved that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion Cath. I see Sir that you despairing to justifie your own Churches and to excuse them from Schism do seek to draw me to particular Disputes By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all whatever the success of such Disputes shall be For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you However I will not refuse so far to comply with you Therefore tell me Wherein consists that depravation you speak of Prot. It consists in this that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed as on purpose to comply with wordly interests and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity Cath. How does that appear §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn and for which we separate from your Church are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition Prot. These which here follow 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone with exclusion of all other Churches 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies 4. His usurped Temporal Authority 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests by consecrating the outward Symbols to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits Thus your Clergy not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation would instill Pride into the people also §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses Alms c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences 3. The Invocation of Saints 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation made by the infamous Apostate you named if rightly considered truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere yet not in the Church but much rather in those who seperated from her For it strongly argues that since to oppose her they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour Authority and Wealth of the Clergy the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church were not any zeal for Truth or care for their Souls for they acknowledg her Orthodox as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy Hatred of Obedience and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours Now Sir tell me sincerely If you were to establish a Church would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People or God himself who instituted a splendid Clergy Prot. It cannot indeed be denied but that contemptible needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind and stiled them the Light of the world and the Salt of the Earth §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions But Sir if you please let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God to whom alone they are open and transparent However this may with full assurance be asserted That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives they were and will be the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us absolutely and in themselves And so doing you must give me leave to say That this also may with full assurance be asserted that whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to
to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
remitted and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained As likewise to the Precept to Saint Iames Confess your sins one to another Which Texts have been alwayes interpreted by the Holy Fathers in the same sense The universal Practice likewise of the Iewish Synagogue conformable hereto adds a considerable weight to induce us to a perswasion that it is by Divine Institution For how can it be imagined that by any humane invention a Duty so burthensom to flesh and blood and to our Natural Pride could have been introduced generally into the Church without sparing the awfull Majesty of Kings and Modesty of Queens by an unarmed Ecclesiastical Power the Pope himself also owing such Submission to a simple Priest §. 79. The ground of the necessity of this Sacrament is because those who by Baptism having submitted themselves to the Churches Authority afterwards do violate the Laws of the Gospel ought to undergo the judgment of the same Church in the Tribunal of Penance where she exercises the Power given her of remitting and retaining sins Now such judgment is esteemed as given by Iesus Christ himself by whom and in whose place his Priests are appointed Iudges It is this invisible High Priest who after Confession Sorrow and Satisfaction interiourly absolves the Penitent whilst the Priest exercises the exteriour Ministery as a Subordinate Iudge without whose concurrence Sins shall not be remitted §. 80. As for Satisfactions imposed after Confessions they according to the Churches expression regard only Temporal Pains due to our Sins She does not teach that we can satisfie God for the guilt even of Venial Sins or for Eternal Pains Moreover she declares that these Satisfactions are accepted of God through the Merits of Christ and that they do no way obscure the benefit of Christs death For Christ by his death has so satisfied for our sins that it is Gods pleasure his satisfaction should not produce its full effects till it be by us particularly applyed in the use of his Sacraments and works worthy of Penance to which Works his Merits being linked and not otherwise our Satisfactions will be accepted by him through his pure Grace and Mercy The Lutherans who seem so only to rely on Christs Passion for the remission of their Sins doubt not yet to profess that a previous Faith is necessary thereto for such as are come to the age of discretion and Baptism for Infants The difference then between us is that they pretend to be justified by a Dead Faith and we by a Living Now therefore advise with your self whether you would forsake Gods Church rather then submit your self to a Duty without which that eminent Priviledge given by our Lord to his Ministers for the general good of his people of remitting Sins becomes vain and of no effect Prot. I will seriously think on this and now expect what you will say concerning the other Articles 9. Of Indulgences §. 81. Cath. I will if you think good in the next place treat of the Point touching Indulgences by reason of its affinity to the former Prot. I leave the Method to your own choice Cath. Concerning Indulgences then the Church hath thus delivered her sense Since the Power of giving Indulgences hath been bestowed on the Church by Iesus Christ and that She hath made use of this Power divinely left her from antient times the Holy Synod teaches and commends the use of Indulgences as very beneficial to all Christian people and approved by the Authority of other Holy Synods and that they ought to be retained in the Church And denounceth Anathema against those who assert that they are unprofitable or deny that there is a Power of giving them in the Church Notwithstanding the Synod admonishes that the granting of them be done with great moderation according to the ancient and approved Custome of the Church for fear least by two great a remisness Ecclesiastical Discipline be weakned Thus we are taught by the Church And certain it is that there is not any Point of Catholic Faith which taken simply according to the Churches own expression is more evident as to the Truth of it and less offensive as to the use then is this touching Indulgences Yet after all there is not any one Point so embroyled by Controvertists disputing for and against Inferences and Interpretations made by several Schoolmen which have occasioned most horrible Scandals by abuses committed in Practise This having been the first occasion of Luthers revolting and Schism §. 82. Now forasmuch as regards the proper necessary sence of this Canon those very Schoolmen who advance the virtue of Indulgences much beyond what will be allowed by many very learned Catholics yet do acknowledge that the Church by her Decision obliges us to believe as of Faith only this viz. That only such a Power of conferring Indulgences has been left by our Lord to his Church as from ancient times has been practised and approved by former Synods intending those that are usually cited to that purpose as the first of Nicea Can. 11. of Neocaesare Can. 3. of Laodicea Can. 1. and 2. the Fourth of Carthage Cap. 75. and of Agdes Can. 6. in all which Synods we only find this that it was always lawful and usual for Bishops to remit to their Penitents some part of those Canonical Penances which were inflicted for certain crimes in case the life and laudable conversation of the Penitent did seem to deserve so great a favour or if by such indulgence they thought requisite to encourage weaker Christians in times of Persecution to suffer for the Faith Hence appears that whatsoever beyond this we read in the Catholic Writers as thouching the remission of any pane due to Sin in the judgment of God or after death in Purgatory or touching certain clauses in the Bulls of some Popes or touching the Churches Treasure consisting of the Merit of Christ alone as some or of the Merits of Saints joyned to those of Christ as others conceive c. not any of these are necessary Points of Catholic Faith Thus in effect the Catholic Church requires no more to be assented to but what is taught and practised by every Congregation of Christians upon Earth All Sects even Fanatics and Quakers denounce Censures against Delinquents Must all those Censures alwayes have their full effect Is no mercy to be extended to humble contrite Penitents Shall no difference be made between Sinners converted and those that are remorsless This is contrary to humane Nature and the practise of all mankind Therefore surely you would not forsake the Catholic Church for allowing that which all Christians esteem necessary §. 83. Prot. If this were all that the Roman Church teaches concerning Indulgences they are much to blame who condemn her But the general Practise therein contradicts you Do we not see the virtue of Indulgences extended to the other world Do we not see in the tenor of promulgated Plenary Indulgences all Sinners promised
fruition of Glory promised them so that all things remain in suspence until the coming of our Saviour to Iudgment Now this so tedious suspension and anxious expectation of an Object vehemently desired must needs be more grievous then a short suffering in Purgatory where probably such a delayed expectation makes the principal torment and where perhaps the sufferings of many less imperfect Souls may be less tormenting than some pains suffered in this life Yet because Calvin will not call this his fancied place Purgatory he is Orthodox and the Church only erroneous He is Orthodox teaching in a manner the very same Doctrine taught by the Church and yet men can have the conscience to forsake the Church that they may learn her Doctrine abroad in a Shismatioal Congregation Prot. Such partiality truly I cannot approve Cath. These are the Catholic Doctrines mentioned by you as evidently contradicting Scripture and invented to promote Ambition and Avarice in the Catholic Clergy And besides these other Points of Controversie there are which though not charged with such an imputation yet are esteemed by you of moment sufficient to drive you out of Gods Church Do you think good that we should take notice of these also Prot. Yes 14. Of Celibacy of Priests §. 104. Cath. The first then that I will mention shall be the Churches Ordinance touching Celibacy of Priests It is confessed by us that this is only an Ecclesiastical Constitution It is also confessed by the most eminent among you that if your Clergy would submit to such a Constitution Ecclesiastical affairs would be better ordered If they say that all men have not the Gift of Continence they may be told that in case any one of them wants this Gift why does he intrude himself into the Office of a Spiritual Pastor Who compels him thereto Yet withall the same person in his younger days had the Gift of Continence whilst he enjoyned a subsistence by a Fellowship in the University Does then his Approaching to the Altar expel that Gift or does Ordination make a wife necessary in these latter days only whereas never any former Christian Church not in Greece it self would permit any person after made a Priest to marry Even those very Councils forbad this which permitted marryed men to receive Priesthood If therefore there be among them a want of this Gift of Continence it is their own fault generally speaking they want it because they are unwilling to enjoy it and will not make use of Prayer Reading Abstinence Solitude and other means proper to continue it And will you Sir leave Gods Church because those whom God hath appointed to take care of your soul have not neither desire to have Wives Prot. Go on to the next Point 15. Of abstinence from flesh enjoyned in Fasting §. 105. Cath. As not in the former Constitution so neither in this by which the Church commands Abstinence from flesh on days of Fasting can you have any pretention to impute to our Church as we may to yours that she favors carnal affections In the former her Clergy imposed on themselves alone the burden of renouncing all even otherwise lawful satisfactions to the flesh And for this you who are nothing concern'd will be angry and forsake a Church because Mortification is practiced by the Pastors in it In this latter Ordinance she indeed I mean her Clergy restrain in some measure the appetites of the Layty but they do not in the mean time favour themselves If it were not good for our Souls to abate the intemperance of our Bodies Ecclesiastics would not afflict themselves by practising it And if it be good Laicks are too blame to find fault with it §. 106. However I cannot judge you so unreasonable as to joyn with your hot-headed Controvertists and Preachers who for these two Ordinances sake impute to our Church the teaching of the Doctrine of Devils in forbiding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats since it is manifest that these Heretics of whom Saint Paul prophesied and which appeared shortly after in the Church uttterly condemned Marriage in all as an abomination in it self and taught that all Creatures having life are composed of particles of the evil Deity and therefore to be had in execration Now Sir can you observe any affinity between these Doctrines and those of the Catholic Church teaching that Marriage is honourable in all who are called to it but yet that Virginity especially in persons consecrated to God is better And again that all Gods creatures are good and to be received with thanksgiving but yet on some few days when we are for the good of our Souls to subdue our carnal Lusts fermenting in our Bodies it is expedient to abstain from some more nourishing meats though otherwise in themselves lawful and good Prot. I am sufficiently perswaded Saint Paul never intended you in that Prophesie And now Sir it will not be necessary you should trouble your self about any other Points debated among us None of which as neither indeed the two last being of such moment as to oblige any one to break from any Churches Communion at all Since all the Doubts concerning them consist in this Whether a single Christian may safely judg himself wiser and holyer then the Church Cath. God Almighty establish in your heart a love of his Truth and Peace And now for a farewel give me leave to add a few considerations touching the general argument of both our Discourses Prot. I give it willingly §. 107. Cath. Then Sir you may remember how at our last meeting I told you that it was the common artifice of your Controvertists when they are charged with Schism to delay the examination of that most important Point till the Greek Calends that is till all other particular Controversies be debated to their satisfaction which will never be But now I must alter the expression and tell you it is not so much a voluntary artifice as pure necessity that put them and you upon that unreasonable Method §. 108. When a Catholic is examined why he is so an Answer is readily suggested to him that it concerns the safety of his Soul to be a member of that Church which from his Creed he learns to be Holy and Catholic and that the Roman is such having all the Marks by which the only true Church is characterized in Scripture He answers directly to the Question without comparing particular Tenents of his Church with those of other divided Congregations which requires much Study and learning beyond the ability of ordinary Catholics whereas the most simple are unquestionably perswaded of the Authority of their Church and that keeps them safe in it against all the captious Objections of Sectaries endeavouring to shake their Faith in particular Doctrines the justifying of which they leave to their Teachers and Governors §. 109. But a Protestant being examined Why for example he is Member of the Church of England it never enters into his
Theological Scar-crow had intended to apply that Expression to single divided Churches whose birth has perhaps been within mans memory and particularly to the Church of England some Fundamental Doctrines whereof to my knowledge he did not assent to and whose Ecclesiastical Government he did not approve his Assertion may be justified to be grounded on Reason For who can tell how a Seperation from any of them can be called Schism or Tenents contradicting their Heresies They all mutually favour one another with the Title of Pure Reformed and Sufficiently Orthodox Churches So that in which soever among them any one shall live and from which soever of them any one shall think fit to depart as liking another better this according to their common grounds must be accounted a matter in a manner indifferent and however there is in it no danger of incurring the guilt of Schism so it be done with an unpretended Conscience It seems therefore to me an Act unjust and unsuitable to the grounds of Pure Reformation in some late Prelatical Writers who charge with the Crime of Schism their tender Conscienced Orthodox Brethren for deserting their Communion as it was anciently in the Donatists those Arch-contrivers of Schisms for doing the same to the Primianists Maximianists and Rogatists subdivided Sects Spawned from them It is plain therefore that among all Reformed Congregations Schism is a meer Scar-crow and the like may be said of Heresie And the reason is because both Heresie and Schism must include an opposition to that Church only which can justly challenge an Authority to determin what Doctrins are true and necessary to be believed by all Christians and to oblige all under penalty of Anathema's to joyn in her Communion Which Authority only belongs to the Catholic Church and which is not so much as pretended to by any Reformed Congregations §. 115. Hence it necessarily follows that the entertaining a perswasion that the Catholic Church to which God hath made a Promise that he will lead her into all Truth is guilty of Errours can proceed only from an excess of Spiritual Pride but it is moreover 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an obstruction of Reason upon a meer suspicion of such Errors to esteem one's Self obliged to separate from her Communion But so pestilent is the Nature of Spiritual Sins that though all men condemn them and most men are deeply stained with them yet not any one can see them in himself Where shall we find an usurping Oppressor acknowledge himself Covetous or an ambitious man proud So never did any Schismatic say or think himself Such He acknowledges that he separates from the Church and boasts of it yet he will not endure to be esteemed a Schismatic as if Sinlurked only in the Greek expression To conclude Unless you will impute to all the Antient Councils and Holy Fathers of Gods Church not only the utmost extremity of ignorance and folly but likewise a base partial interessedness and most execrable Tyranny in denouncing Anathemas against Dissenters and Separatists you will judge Separation from Catholic Communion to be no vain Theological Scar-crow Such a sleight Opinion of the harmlesness of Schism was not first branched in this Age. Saint Augustine will inform us that in his days There were some who said We thought it made no matter where that is in what Communion we preserved the Faith of Christ But saith he thanks be given to our Lord who hath gathered us from separation and hath made manifest to us that this is a thing pleasing to God who is One to be served in Unity Such horror had those great Lights of the Church of the Crime of Schism that according to their judgment even Martyrdom it self cannot cure the deadly poyson of it And that the Martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring Schism in the Church is no less glorious then that which is suffered for refusing to Sacrifice to Idols That there cannot possibly be made any Reformation of such importance as the mischief of Schism is pernicious And in a word That it cannot possibly be that any one should have a just cause toâ— separate from Catholic Communion More to this purpose you may find in the Second Section of the Collection of Testimonies out of the Holy Fathers at the end of our former Discourse Prot. I well remember them therefore if you please here we may make an end §. 116. Cath. Farewel Sir and pardon the frequent urging of this most necessary Admonition If I thought you would require it I could very easily have concluded this Discourse as I did the former with a Collection of Testimonies from the Holy Fathers to justifie the Churches Doctrines through all the Points here mentioned But such a Collection having been the only Subject of many great volumns published by Catholic Doctors it will be sufficient to refer you to them I will only desire you to take notice in perusing them first That never any such Book has been written by any Protestant And next that such Collections have been made by Catholics to shew that their whole Religion came by descent from the Antient Fathers Whereas Protestants only upon a particular occasion Select some obscure or ambiguous passages from their Writings with a purpose to cast a mist besore the eyes of unwary Readers that they may so elude the force of those Testimonies far exceeding in number and more perspicuously evident produced by Catholics FINIS 1 Tim. 3. 15 Psal. 122. 3. Matt. 5. 14. Isa. 54. Mat. 18. 17. Calvin Instit. lib. 4. cap. 1. Calvin Epi. ad Melanct. Prejugez con les Calvinists San. Relation pag. 233. Roses his View of Religion pag. 4768. Humsr. in Iesuitiâ—mi part 2. 〈◊〉 5. Mig leb Cent. 6. p. 289. lb. c. 10. p. 748. Cariâ—â— Chron. lib. 4. 〈◊〉 Onanâ— Epitome cent 6. Parker Antih Bâ—it c. 17. Aâ—ch 〈◊〉 pro 〈◊〉 Dom. p. 33. Osiand Epist. p. 290. Whitak cont Dur. l. 5. §. 26. Humfr. ad rat 5. Godwin in Conv. Brit. c. 4. Magdeb. Cent. 6. c. 10. Castal in Praefat. Bibliâ—r Lat. Philip Nicolai de Regno Christi c. 1. p. 53. Auâ— Epist. 165. Calvin Inâ—stit l. 4. c. 2. §. 42. August in Psalm 30. Conc. 2â— Aug. in Ps. 147. Aug. in Psal. 56. August in Epist. Ioan 2. August cont Faust. l. 13. c. 13. Aug. in Psal. 85. Aug. de Baptis cont Don. l. 1. c. 10 Aug. in Ps. 1. 30. Pacian Epist 2. ad Sympron Dionys. Alex ap Euseb l. 6. Aug. Ser. 22. de diversis Aug. in I sal 42. Itâ— l. 4. c. 62. Aug. in Psal. 48 Aug. de Vera Rel g. Aug. Epist. 48. Aug. cont Epist. Fundam c. 3. Fulgent de â—ide ad Pet. cap. 39. Aug. Retract l. 1. Id de Utilitate Aug. de Unitate Eccl. c. 19. Aug. in Psal. 41. Aug. de Baptismo cont Donat l. 2. Aug. cont â—reseon 〈◊〉 33. Aug. de Quantit Animae c. 7. Aug. cont Iulian. l. â— c. 5. Hilar. l. 1. Tertull. de Praescrips c. 18. Aug. Epist. 118. Aug. de Haeres Vincent Lirin Comon c. 38. Sâ—ogli â—el Chr. Nauâ—r 1 Kin. 12. Mat. 5. 13. 14. Conc. Trid. Sess. 4. Io. 16. 13. Mat. 16. 18. Bulla Piiâ— P. 4. Conc. Fâ—r Perron in Ambass Epist. Margaretae Gubernatricis ad Archiepiscopum Camerac Responsis ejusd Confess de Foy Art 36. Catech. Dimanch 53. Ib. 52. Ibid. Epist. aâ— Cardin. Perron Council Trid. Sess. 13. can 6. Bull. Pii P. IV. Concil Trid. Sess. 22. c. 1. Hebr. 9. 26. Ib. 28. Ib. 12. Ioh. 22. 23. Mat. 18. 18. Iam. 5. 16. Concil Trid. Sess. 14. Can. 13. 14. Concil Trideâ— Sess. 2â— Suarez Vasquez Concil Trid. Sess. 21. de Reform c. 9. Ibid Sess. 25. Council Trid. Sess. 6. can 11. Ib. can 34 Ib. c. 9. Ib. c. 8. Ib. c. 16. Ibid. Ib. Sess. 14. cap. 8. Can. Miss â—uth Concil Trid. Sess. 25. Eâ—ius Bull. Pii P. IV. Council Trid. Sess. 25. 2 Mâ—cchab 12. 43 44. Calvin Insti lib. 3. c. 25. §. c. 1. Tim. 4. 1. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Mat. 18. 17. Hâ—le's Discourse of Schism Epiâ— aâ— Diut Aug. Epist 48 Dionys. Alex. ap Euseb. l. 6 Pacian Epist. 2. Iren. l. 4. c. 62. Aug. Epist 48.
themselves from Her but submit patiently to her Censures which she should lay upon them If her Censures were just they would have no reason to complain If unjust God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace §. 23. They were no sooner separated but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost they formed New Societies which they called Churches and therein established New Pastors and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core Dathan and Abiron Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive received from his Father and bestowed on his Church the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul was his constituting therein Apostles Pastors and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition that this Succession should ever be interrupted Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled these Reformers without any Warrant usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it and to bestow it according to their own pleasure thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church as far as lyes in their Power through the whole World If Christ himself had thus without testifying his Authority by Miracles dealt with the Iewish Synagogue he would not have expected belief nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him By what authority dost thou these things and who gave thee this Authority Luke 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle Into whatever place they come through the whole earth they as far as their Secular power extends degrade and chase away all Bishops Priests and Pastors professing the Catholic Religion they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors and true Wolves they denounce Anathemas against them they incite their Subjects to rebel defraud and persecute them as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians Who invested them with such Authority If we consult their own Stories we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests once they had a Bishop Apostates from the Catholic Church whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues and by that means make a shew that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen who had an ordinary Vocation But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation and receiving their Commission by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers In a word I should weary both you and my self if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation If you have a mind you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French the Title whereof is in English Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion being manifestly prejudged and self condemned §. 24. Prot. But surely Sir you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church we have the like in the English in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations I will not here enter into any dispute neither indeed is it needful But this I may confidently say That since English Protestants have especially of late by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists or Presbyterian Congregations to be true though not so perfect Members of Christs Church as themselves the English Church I may say justifies but however qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission and thereby involves her self in their guilt Again though it were true that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church yet sure I am that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees meerly because they were Catholics In a word she never gave them authority to alter or rather destroy the whole Religion in a manner professed in England since they were first Christians If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome yet not Iurisdiction or if that also yet certain it is that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction can also upon their demerits and exercising it contrary to her intention suspend the administration of it which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations To be brief the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church and consequently her self no such Member unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church Cath. Consider Sir I pray you that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt then is every Member of it as far as in its Communion Holy and uncorrupt also Which Holiness does not regard the persons whether Governors or Subjects for in the first and best Church of all consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only there was a Iudas and a Nicolas A Church is said