infallible and the Mistress of all other Churches that there is a Purgatory with the rest of those Doctrines which they embrace and we reject Nay these opinions with their consequences rather tend to make men much worse than otherwise they would have been Some of them make them more loose and careless in the leading of their lives and some make them most cruel and uncharitable to such as differ from them yea render them many times disobedient to their rulers and furious disturbers of the peace by Plots and Treasons and Rebellions for the advancing of their cause True Christianity puts men upon no such courses but these are the natural effects of Popery as has often been verified by sad experience L. I understand you well and am fully perswaded that we in our Church do embrace all those Christian Doctrines that tend to the promoting of good life and do retain none that are an hindrance to it But what say you to their objections against Calvin and Luther who as my Author says were very wicked men and strange stories he tells of them out of Bolsec and other Writers of their Church T. To this I answer that it sufficiently appears how bad their cause is which must be maintain'd by the most odious lies and forgeries For there are no Books in the world less to be credited than those which their Monks and Priests have written in praise of those they have Canonized for Saints and in dispraise of such as they have damned for Hereticks making the former somewhat more than Angels and the latter worse than Devils But as to Calvin and Luther some of the more ingenuous even of their own Church have given a fairer character of them than their lying Bolsec and such Authors And had they but been as zealous for Popery as they were against it no doubt but they had past amongst them for great Saints with all their faults But in the mean time were they really as bad as they falsely accuse them to be yet are we little or nothing concerned herein since they were not the Reformers of our Church Nor yet if they had is it the goodness of this or that person which we are obliged to defend but the truth of our Doctrine and the lawfulness and necessity of our Reformation Thus they make a great out-cry against Henry the Eighth what a bad man he was and what ill designs he had in throwing off the Popes Supremacy which was the most he did toward the Reformation but let his designs be what they would the thing it self was justifiable and good VVhat if a bad Emperor upon carnal designs should have supprest Heathenism and promoted Christianity as Constantine himself was accused by some is this any dishonour to the Christian Religion But little cause have Papists of all men to talk of ill instruments whilst they may remember from what a Trayterous Murderer and Usurper the Pope first received the title of Universal Bishop for which he had been long quarrelling with the Bishop of Constantinople And however they slander Calvin and Luther we might with much more reason and truth object what kind of creatures multitudes of their Popes have been whom they own as Heads of their Church even such monsters of men for all manner of impiety filthiness and cruelty as the world hath scarce ever heard of the like And this we have from those of their own Church who have written their Lives and their greatest Champions such as Bellarmine and Baronius cannot deny it L. But it s further objected against Calvin and Luther and the first Reformers that they never wrought miracles to shew they had a commission from God T. Our first Reformers never pretended to bring in any new Religion only they cast out Popish Innovations which had corrupted and defaced it and for this they needed no extraordinary commission from heaven nor any miracles to warrant the same For they preached no other but the same old Religion which was taught by Christ and his Apostles and was abundantly confirmed by the miracles which they wrought long ago And with us the Reformation was begun and carried on in a just and regular manner by our Rulers in Church and State who had full authority to make the same even as the Kings and High-Priests of old had to reform any abuses and corruptions which at any time were crept into the Iewish Church And as these needed no new commission from Heaven no new miracles to authorize them to rectifie disorders and reform the Church according to the rules of Moses's Law no more did our Reformers need them for the removing of those errors and superstitions which had by degrees been brought in contrary to our Saviours Gospel L. I see no reason indeed why miracles should be expected from them who only cast out new inventions and keep fast to the old Christian Religion which hath already been confirmed by so many and great miracles But yet my Author says that in their Church they have had miracles wrought in all ages such as curing the blind and deaf raising the dead and casting out of Devils which he accounts to make mightily for the honour of their Saints and of the Church to which they belong T. In the Primitive times indeed such miracles were wrought for proving of the Christian Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and all that he taught most certainly true and this Doctrine so confirmed is the Religion which we at this day do openly profess in our Church But then I utterly deny that ever such miracles were wrought to prove the truth of Popish Doctrins properly so called as of Transubstantiation Pargatory Invocation of Saints c. for these were never taught by Christ or his Apostles and therefore could not receive confirmation from the miracles of their working As to any that are pretended to be done in the Church of Rome for the attesting of these they are meer cheats and forgeries or lying wonders agreeable to the nature of those false Doctrines which they are designed to confirm And though your Author talks of healing the sick raising the dead c. I can hear of no such thing done by any of them amongst us whatever they may pretend to in Popish Countries where it s an easie matter for cunning Priests to impose upon credulous people But were indeed any such miracles wrought for the proof of Popish Doctrines one would think they should be done amongst those they call Hereticks who stand in need of such arguments for their conviction rather than amongst their own people who need them not Great Stories they often tell of their casting out of Devils and for this knack are their Priests mightily magnified by their deluded followers and prefer'd before the Ministers of our Church who pretend to no such matter But that this is a gross cheat seems plain enough from hence that what their Priests pretend to in this kind for all that ever I could
Romish Church But for the Papist the happy man that has had the good luck to hit into this true Church they have so many tricks and quirks to secure him in his life at his death and after it that let his faults be what they will it s very strange if he miss of Heaven at least after he has taken Purgatory in his way if he was very poor for rich men may easily escape that too or get soon out of it if they 'l follow the Priests directions Such fine devices they have to give men a lift to Heaven without putting them to the trouble of walking in that narrow way of serious holiness which alone leads thither So that I cannot but say and without any prejudice or partiality I speak it notwithstanding all that noise and talk of holiness in the Church of Rome nothing but Holy Mother Church Holy Father the Pope Holy Altars Holy Images Holy Water Holy Crosses Beads Agnus Dei's Reliques and a thousand holy trinkets more yet I think there is as little true holiness of life and conversation to be found amongst them as in any Church of the world Yea we shall often find that when those of that way are told of the holy Lives of many Protestants or are themselves exhorted to strictness and piety of life as that wherein true Religion chiefly consists they will be ready presently to make a puff at it as if this was of no value in comparison of being of the true Church of the infallible Catholick Church as they fondly call their own Sect as if being in a good Church would secure a bad man when we are so plainly taught that without holiness no man shall see God let him be of what Church he will Wherefore to conclude this remember that since in the Church of England the holy Gospel is most purely taught and the holy Sacraments duly administred according to our Saviours own institution and the members of it are neither required to profess any falshood or practise any evil in order to their communion with it but on the contrary are most strictly enjoyned to be holy in all their conversation and do here enjoy all manner of helps and advantages thereto therefore I say this is such an Holy Church as that you may and ought to hold communion with it Proceed we now to the following Marks of the true Church CHAP. III. Of the third mark of the true Church that it's Catholick L. THE next mark he lays down of the true Church is that its Catholick And here they make great boasting and triumphing for they say none else call themselves Catholicks but they nor as they pretend have any reason so to do since they tell of vast numbers belonging to their Church in all places of the world far and near and how they convert Heathens whilst Protestants they say are but a little handful here and there in corners amongst a multitude of Catholicks T. As to what they call themselves it matters little for be sure they 'l give themselves good words Neither is it true that none but they lay claim to that name for we of this Church do esteem our selves true Catholick Christians as professing the ancient Catholick faith of Christ and so do frequently stile both our selves and our Doctrine and with good reason as I doubt not to demonstrate As to their great numbers compared to other Christians suppose what they alledge were true as it is most false yet is this no sufficient argument of their being true Catholicks for that 's to be judged by the truth of their Doctrines and not by the number of Professors For if we should at this rate go to the Poll and judg of truth by most votes then might the Mahometans carry it from Christians And heretofore the number of the Arrians was said to be greater than of the Orthodox But that 's to be accounted a true part of the Catholick Church which professes the Catholick faith even the same Christian Religion which all good Christians in all ages former as well as latter and of all Nations have ever constantly profest And by this rule you will find that the Church of England is a most true and sound part of the Catholick Church as professing this same Christian faith contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Here you may remember what I have before told you that it is most vain and unreasonable for any one particular Church to stile her self the whole Catholick Church as if there were no Christians in the world but themselves And yet in this sense doth the Church of Rome stile her self Catholick the absurdity of which I have before shewed And there needs nothing more to manifest it than this single consideration that there are thousands and millions of Christians in several parts of the world who neither now do nor ever did own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome which is the great fundamental article of their faith to pass by all others at present and yet all these whilst they embrace the whole Christian Doctrine taught in the holy Scriptures are to be lookt on as true Catholick Christians though they do not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar upon earth invested with Supremacy over all Christian Churches for this is a Doctrine which our Saviour never taught his Disciples Now without owning this false Doctrine a man cannot be of the Church of Rome according to the Decrees of their Popes and Councils and yet without this I say a man may receive the whole Christian Religion as it was delivered by Christ and his Apostles and therefore he may be a true Catholick Christian though he be not of the Romish Church nor yields subjection to it L. This seems to me very plain and clear T. But it will appear yet more plain if you consider what is a most certain truth that there can be no manner of good evidence given that the Church of Christ for some hundred years after our blessed Saviours time did ever receive this Doctrine of the Popes Supremacy or his Infallibility Nay our learned men assert that there is not so much as any one Christian Writer for at least three hundred years after that time some say four or five that did ever so much as teach any such strange Doctrine as this How then I beseech you can the owning of it now be necessary to make a man a Catholick when the whole Catholick Church for some ages after its first Plantation was a meer stranger to it L. I think there is no appearance of reason for it T. To this add that the whole Greek which was much larger than the Romish before it was over-run by the Turks ever disown'd these same new opinions of the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility with many others of the same stamp neither do they generally embrace them to this day though sometimes the Romanists have used all manner of arts and devices
in all ages hath acknowledged and walked in But the Church of Rome which may well enough be stiled the Popes little flock hath peculiar Doctrines of its own which she hath added to the common truths of Christianity many of which Doctrines do apparently lead men to the broad way even to loosness of life and manners as hath been already shewn T. There needs nothing more be added to what you say and therefore I shall proceed to his sixth and last question viz. Can you shew me any miracles that ever were wrought in testionony of the truth of your Religion Or that all the miracles which Catholicks shew to have been done in confirmation of their Religion have been false or were wrought be Beelzebub any more than those which Christ did work in his life time L. I do well remember the answer that long since you gave to this the summ of which was that since our Religion is that same holy Christian Religion which was taught by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles all those miracles which they anciently wrought in confirmation of their Doctrine do at this day confirm ours also which being the same with theirs needs no new miracles for that purpose For by those miracles of theirs besides other weighty arguments we are fully assured that Iesus Christ is the Son of God that he died for our sins and rose again from the dead with the rest of the Creed wherein is briefly comprized the summ of our Belief the chief articles of our Religion And when our first Reformers rejected those Popish errors which had been added to these ancient Christian Doctrines as they needed no extraordinary commission for this their reformation no more did they need any miracles to confirm their commission It was enough that they had authority from God from the Church and from their Prince to preach the truths of the Gospel and to reject all errors contrary thereto and to remove those abuses which in later times had crept into the Church But whilst they only preach'd that same Gospel which had been abundantly confirmed already by mighty signs and wonders they no more needed any new miracles than if such errors and abuses had never been brought in And as to those false Doctrines wherein Popery consists such as the Popes Supremacy Transubstantiation c. we do utterly deny that ever any true miracles were wrought in confirmation of them whatever fine tales their Monks may tell us in their Legends And for any to compare these their lying Legends so full of most ridiculous and prodigious stories with the account that is given of the miracles done by our Saviour and his followers in the New Testament is to be guilty of notorious impudence and blasphemy and plainly tends to promote infidelity and Atheism T. Your censure is very just and your answer solid and satisfactory as are the rest you have given By all which it appears that your Author had little cause to say that they who ask the resolution of these doubts from their Ministers if they have any light of reason will find how much they are deluded For blessed be God I hope many of our people are so well instructed that they will not be imposed upon nor much puzled with such captious Questions as these Especially whilst they seek to their Ministers for a resolution of their doubts by the grace of God they shall be secured from the delusions of Popish Emissaries who go about seeking whom they may deceive CHAP. III. An answer to some Propositions said to be unanswerable by Protestants T. IN the next place I find your Author at his Scholars request furnishing him with some unanswerable Propositions as he vainly stiles them against Protestants Of these he names eight taken as he says from Costerus the Jesuit who therewith if we may believe him put all the ablest Ministers of Germany and the Low-countries to their wits ends Which if it were so one would wonder that there were any Protestant Ministers or people left in those Countries and that they were not all long since driven out of their wits and their Religion into Popery But had they never used those terrible arguments of fire and sword Prisons and Inquisition no body would much fear their pregnant arguments difficult questions or unanswerable Propositions The two former we have already dispatched let us now survey the last in which I am apt to think we shall still find a tedious repetition of many the same things that we have already often heard which if it be so we shall more briefly pass over them L. Probably you will find it so However I think we shall sooner have finished if you please to give the answer your self to these his Propositions which I shall exactly recite to you T. That shall be as you will But I hope you are not moved with his formidable title of Unanswerable Propositions L. I have no reason I am sure if they be like his unanswerable Questions in which there proved little or no difficulty T. Their common way is to make up the want of good Reason with great words and loud noise producing only thin fallacies and empty sophistry whilst they talk big of Infallible Evidence and clear Demonstration But let us hear these dreadful Propositions I beseech you L. His first is this Never since the Apostles times till Luther began his new Doctrine in the year 1517 was any man found in the whole World who did in all things consent with either Lutherans Calvinists Anabaptists or other Sectaries opinions Nor shall ever any of the Sectaries prove the Apostles or Evangelists to have been of the Lutheran Calvinistical or any other new Sect. Whence follows that Luther and the rest have no Faith at all but only a new fancied invention which they adorn with the name of Faith and that they are the men of whom the Scripture in several places affirms that there will come in the latter times false Prophets T. As to Lutherans or Calvinists we own neither one name or other as has been often said nor are we concerned to vindicate any particular opinion of this Man or that though I reckon the Doctrine of both as to the substance of it to be sound and good at least so far as it agrees with that of our Church which only we are obliged to answer for and easily we may though he revile us also as Sectaries since it is no other than the same Christian Doctrine which is contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Creed and this let him confute if he can or attempt it if he dare And in this Doctrine we are sure both the Apostles of old with the Catholick Church in their Age and in all Ages since do fully consent with us Nor was it any new Doctrine that our Reformers brought in No but whilst they rejected Popish Novelties they retain'd those truths of Christianity which were as old as the first institution of Religion What
that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much
A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries Plainly shewing That the Members of the Church of ENGLAND are no Sectaries but true Catholicks and that our Church is a sound part of Christ's Holy Catholick Church in whose Communion therefore the people of this Nation are most strictly bound in Conscience to remain In Two Parts If any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed Gal. 1. 9. LONDON Printed for Samuell Tidmarsh at the Kings-Head in Cornhill next House to the Royal Exchange 1685. THE PREFACE I Do not think there needs any excuse to be made for answering a Book written against our Religion If there were I could truly produce that common one of being put upon it by Friends For it 's now more than a year since some very worthy Friends to whom my Obligations are too great to dispute their Commands did put into my bands a little Popish Book called A Short Catechism against all Sectaries said to be Translated by C. M. desiring me to write a plain Answer thereto by way of Dialogue such as might be fitted for the capacities of common people In obedience to whom I presently betook my self to the work wherein I have proceeded very slowly being daily interrupted with other employments But now at length having finish'd it I present it to the World heartily wishing it may have a success answerable to the truth and goodness of the cause I maintain and to the design both of my self in Writing and Publishing it and of my Friends in putting me upon it I am not so vain as to pretend to have said any thing new on a Subject so very common and which for a long time hath exercised the Pens of very many persons of greatest Wil and Learning both in our own and other Nations Let it suffice what I hope without any vanity may be said that I think I have here delivered certain and solid Truth in plain and easie Words that even he that runs may read and understand the same I can also truly add that in answering this my Popish Author I have used all manner of honest and fair dealing as becomes a sincere Lover of Truth I have not indeed always followed him word for word especially not in his second and third Chapters in the former of which he endeavours to prove That Protestants have not the marks of a true Church in the latter That the Church of Rome hath them These two I have handled together and though I have left out much of his reviling Language which I thought needed no answer nor deserved any notice yet I do not know that I have past over any one Argument either there or in any other place Some perhaps may look on it as a fault that I have often followed him too punctually which has occasioned the frequent repetition of the same things but this may be useful to some Readers If I have not every where quoted his very words as for the most part I have done yet I am sure I have never willingly misrepresented his sense nor proposed his Arguments with disadvantage but rather have added what I thought might give strength thereto And as I know not that I have any where overlooked one Argument without answering it so neither have I returned any answer but what in my Conscience I thought to be just and true and with which my own mind is well satisfied I have not so confined my self to this Author but that I have also taken notice of some other points which he never mentions And though I may be far enough from having spoken to all that are in controversy betwixt us and the Church of Rome yet I think I have not wholly omitted those which are of greatest weight At least I am well assured that I have said enough to satisfy any considering impartial person that there is not the least reason why any Man should depart from the Communion of the Church of England and betake himself to that of Rome Since the Romish Church has no manner of Authority over us and is moreover guilty of retaining and imposing such gross and dangerous Errors and Corruptions as render her Communion utterly unlawful and unsafe even to those who have been born and bred in her bosom How unreasonable then is it for us to revolt to her And indeed my chief design in this undertaking is to confirm those of our own Church in strict Communion with it having little hope of bringing over many Proselytes from the Church of Rome Where I can expect but few Readers I must not look for many Converts Those Guides who are not willing to trust their People with the Holy Scriptures which yet they say are on their side will be less willing they should read the Books of those whom they account their Enemies and too oft they account us so as the Jews did our Saviour meerly for telling them the truth But if any of that Persuasion should be so ingenuous as to give this little Book a fair Reading and shall bring along with him a mind as free from passion and prejudice as the Author had in Writing it I dare say that it will either perswade him to become a Member of our most excellent Church or at least convince him that we who are already so have great reason not to depart from it Since this our departure beside all other faults involved in it would render us guilty of an apparent Schism And this guilt I reckon is most justly chargeable on the Papists amongst us And not on them only but also on those Protestant Dissenters as they are commonly called of what Denomination soever who separate from us into distinct Societies which they set up in opposition to our Church as by Law established For if in this Church all things needful to salvation are afforded and no sinful condition imposed then do they make a causeless sinful separation who withdraw from its Communion Neither can these our Dissenters justly plead the same Arguments for their Separation from us that our Church can for its withdrawing from the Church of Rome or rather for Reforming her self from the corruptions of that Church as I have briefly shewn toward the end of this Treatise They who would see this more fully demonstrated let them read a Discourse which purposely handles this Subject being one of the Cases lately Written as is said by some of the London Ministers And indeed I scarce know any Books that I would sooner recommend to the Common Reader for his direction in these matters than all those Discourses which treat of the several points in difference betwixt our Church and the Non-conformists and also of some of those betwixt us and the Papists And are generally Written with such clearness of judgment and with such calmness and good temper as may render them more acceptable and more useful through God's
God for the defence of his Church and the carrying on his cause The Holy God needs not the wickedness of men to defend any cause of his nor is Religion like to be secured by irreligious means nor Gods honour promoted by a contempt of his authority in disobeying his commands True Religion will make us impartial and uniform in the performance of our duty and teach us to have a respect to all Gods Commandments to the fifth as well as to the first or second so that we shall no more dare to rebell against our lawful Soveraign and set up an Usurper than to disown the true God and worship an Idol But I have been longer on this Subject than I intended and therefore shall hasten to conclude this Preface as I have done my Book with a most serious and earnest exhortation to the Reader that above all things he be careful to lead an universally religious and good life giving in the first place to God the things that are Gods and then to Caesar the things that are his Let God be all in all to our souls and let his authority wholly govern and sway us in the whole course of our lives Let us study to know his will as he has plainly revealed it in his holy Word and let us most strictly and faithfully comply with it in all things Never let the hopes of any worldly advantage or the fear of any loss or suffering draw us into the wilful commission of any sin or into the wilful neglect of our duty Neither the commands of the greatest Monarch nor the example of the multitude will be any excuse for going against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences There is not the least doubt of it but that God must be obeyed rather than man when their commands do indeed thwart and contradict each other Gods favour is more to be desired than all the riches and honours of the world and his wrath more to be feared than all the miseries and sufferings of this life What will it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul But as no pretence of Loyalty and Obedience to Kings will at any time justifie our breach of Gods commands who is the King of Kings so neither will the pretence of Religion any more warrant our resistance of lawful authority If we cannot obey with a good conscience then we ought to suffer with quietness and patience This is every where the Lesson which the Gospel teaches and which is more especially recommended to us by the example of our Blessed Lord and Master and if ever we hope to live and reign with him hereafter we must now deny our selves and take up our cross and follow him even in meekness and patience must we follow him as well as in righteousness and mercy purity and temperance or any other graces Yea by this means we shall best consult for the present safety and honour both of our selves and our Religion Who will or what can harm us if we be followers of that which is good This will incline Kings to be Nursing Fathers to the Church when the Church trains up her Children in obedience to God and the King Above all this will procure the blessing and favour of Almighty God wherein consists all our safety and felicity We may hope still to enjoy his Presence and his Gospel whilst we bring forth such good fruits of it and walk worthy of the Lord in all well-pleasing He will continue our peace and prosperity so far as he sees good for us and will suffer nothing to befall us but what shall make for the interest of Religion and our own truest advantage Say to the righteous it shall be well with him whether in peace and prosperity or in sufferings and adversity But let us remember St. Peter ' s advice 1 Pet. 4. 15. to beware of suffering as busie bodies or evil doers as factious and seditious as Rebels and Traytors They only who suffer for righteousness sake may glorifie God on that behalf They alone with confidence may commit themselves to him who are exercised in well-doing To him therefore the only wise the great and good God let us freely and chearfully commit both our souls and bodies and all our comcerns whether publick or private banishing from our minds those faintings and despondencies those fears and jealousies which first disturb the peace of our own breasts and then too often that of the publick Let us but see to do our own duty with faithfulness and diligence and then let us possess our souls in patience being assured that all the ways of God are mercy and truth and all his Providences how strange soever they may seem to us shall in the issue sweetly conspire to fulfill his promises and accomplish his designs of love to all that truly fear and serve him Let us look well to the Government of our own spirits and passions of our tongues and our lives and then let us leave the Government of the world to the God that made it who is the absolute Lord and Ruler over all in whose hands are all the hearts and the affairs of men and who can turn and order all as he will and he will do what he sees best and most conducing to the glory of his own name and the good of his Church which is a thousand times dearer to him than it can be to us Wherefore let us sincerely make Gods Glory our End and his Word our Rule and continue stedfast in communion with our Church which teaches us so to do and then we can never be utterly defeated nor need we ever be much dejected Truth and goodness are most strong and invincible things and will certainly at last prevail and triumph over error and wickedness And all that do with courage and honesty engage in their service shall never receive any real hurt but are certain to come off with victory and honour Even now the spirit of God and of glory resteth upon them and dwelleth in them filling them with joy unspeakable and full of glory And at length they shall be exalted to those glories and joys those Crowns and Scepters which are reserved in Heaven for Christian conquerors even for such as have managed their warfare and gain'd their conquests not by disturbing the peace nor by doing evil to any man but by patient suffering of evil done to them and by patient continuance in well-doing THE CONTENTS PART I. CHAP. I. COncerning the True Church and the marks of it and first of its Unity Page 1 CHAP. II. Of the second Mark of the True Church viz. Holiness pag. 14 CHAP. III. Of the third Mark of the True Church that it's Catholick pag. 33 CHAP. IV. Of the fourth Mark of the True Church that it is Apostolick p. 41 CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy p. 48 CHAP. VI. Of
Bishop to succeed him and so hath the succession continued to this day and therefore sure they must needs be an Apostolical Church T. In answer to this I shall wave the dispute whether indeed St. Peter was ever Bishop of Rome or no and shall pass by all that may be said of the frequent Schisms which have happen'd amongst them by their having sometimes two or three Popes at once and that for many years together nor shall I tell of the fine tricks and politick intrigues of the Cardinals at the Election of a Pope nor of those vile arts which are frequently used by such as aspire to that dignity all which tends very much to abate their honour and shews how unlike they are to the Apostles whose Successors they boast themselves to be But waving these things let me only desire you to consider how little force there is in this argument to prove their Church to be now Apostolical that once there was an Apostle Bishop of it except there still continue with them the same truth of Doctrine and purity of worship which the Apostles did at first teach and establish For let us grant that St. Peter and St. Paul with other holy men planted a Church at Rome yet is it not possible that here as well as at Ephesus might afterward arise men who should teach perverse things as we find it exprest Act. 20. 30. and thereby corrupt the Doctrine of the Gospel Was it not thus in many other Churches And may it not be so at Rome too yea most certainly we know it is so For though we grant that Church to have remain'd for a considerable time pure and uncorrupted yet for many ages by-past to this very day there have been such Doctrines and practices currently received and established in that Church as the Apostles never taught to them nor to any others And with respect to these I say they deserve not the title of an Apostolical Church meerly because an Apostle at first planted it and presided over it The Papists themselves will not now allow this title to any of the Greek Churches which were planted by the Apostles because they look upon them as erroneous and schismatical and certainly they themselves have as little reason to challenge it as any of their neighbours being at least as grosly degenerated as any though they may have more prosperity and greater numbers of people adhering to them It is not then so much the sitting in the same Chair as teaching the same Doctrines with the Apostles that makes a Bishop to be a true Successor of them Wherefore those Churches which were planted by holy men after the Apostles were dead and gone if they receive the same Doctrine and retain the same worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did these may most justly be accounted Apostolical Churches sound members of the One Holy Catholick Apostolick Church of Christ. L. I think there is great reason so to account them but it seems very unreasonable that any one Church should stile it self the Apostolick Church so as to exclude all others from that title especially so unsound a Church as that of Rome which is at this day so very unlike to what it was in the times of the Apostles T. It is indeed every whit as unreasonable as to arrogate to themselves alone the name of Catholick which we discoursed of before Nay let us suppose that the Bishops of Rome to this very day followed the example of the Apostles preached the same Doctrine led the same good lives and used the same holy worship and discipline so that their Church indeed deserved to be own'd as Apostolical yet what in reason could be infer'd from hence more than this viz. that the people in their own Diocess should be subject to them and that all other sister Churches ought to give them due respect and maintain such communion with them as those at a distance are capable of But it does not in the least follow that the Bishop of Rome is Christs Vicar upon Earth and their Church the only Catholick and Apostolick Church so that none must have this title but those who inslave themselves to the Pope L. You have said enough to convince me how very absurd it is for the Church of Rome to stile her self the Catholick Apostolick Church as if there were no other Christians in the world but Papists yet pray tell me may not the Church of Rome be reckoned a part of the Catholick Church T. At the best it is but a small part as I have before told you and also a very unsound part Yea I will not doubt to add that take the Church of Rome even in the largest sense as comprehending all those that submit to the Pope as Head of the whole Church under Christ they may justly be reckoned a Schismatical party dividing themselves from the rest of the Catholick Church setting up a false Head and Governour and appointing unlawful terms of communion And though in this respect the Masters and leaders of the faction are in the greatest guilt yet the people who are seduced are also more or less guilty according to the capacity they are in of geting better information But yet notwithstanding this schism they are in and notwithstanding the many errors and abuses that are amongst them whilst they profess the Christian Religion and own their Baptism they may be allow'd the name of Christians such as belong to the visible Church of Christ. And how uncharitable soever they are to us I hope there are many good Christians amongst them who do heartily believe the Gospel and live in obedience to it according to their knowledg and who on that account may be stiled true members of the Catholick Church as all honest true hearted Christians are notwithstanding those errors and faults they may be guilty of which do not utterly violate their Baptismal Covenant nor destroy that faith and holiness by which we are united to Christ the Head and so are living members of his body the Church But still I say this title belongs not to them as they are Papists embracing the peculiar tenents of their own Church but as they are Christians holding the essential Articles of the Christian Faith together with our own and all other Churches For as to Popery it is really a disease a corruption of the Christian Religion Yet as a diseased man may have his vitals so sound that even the Plague or Leprosie may not kill him so may there be some amongst the Papists in whom the great and common truths of Religion may be so deeply implanted and so faithfully retained and improved that the disease of Popery may not prove mortal Whilst they hold the foundation Jesus Christ and his Gospel though the hay and stubble which they build upon it shall be burnt yet may they through the mercy of God in Christ be saved so as by fire that is with great difficulty 1 Cor. 3. 11 12 c. And
their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
I am ashamed to take notice of it If he had infer'd the quite contrary that therefore they must not be used the reason had been every whit as good that is stark naught But what will not men devise when they are put to their shifts L. I wonder what makes them so stiff in a practice so contrary to Reason Scripture and the usage of the Primitive Church T. It is not very easie to give the reason since some amongst themselves seem ashamed of it and many of their Bishops in the Council of Trent desired to have publick Prayers in a known Tongue but it would not be granted The reason of which as of many other corruptions being still continued seems to be partly from their fear that if they should make one alteration a great many more would follow for if they own themselves to have erred in one thing why not in more and partly to encrease the peoples admiration of the Priest and his Prayers for the less they understand the more prone they are to admire And lastly perhaps there may be this peculiar reason for it that hereby the people may more easily be perswaded of the efficacy of the Priests words for the working that prodigious miracle of Transubstantiation For if they should hear him speak only plain words in their own mother-tongue they could hardly think them of force enough to work such a mighty change whereas in hard words there may be some hidden virtue which they are not aware of But let us go on to what follows CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them L. MY Author next pleads for the custom of confessing sins to the Priest on account of that power which Christ hath given him to absolve and forgive sins Joh. 20. 23. T. As to this matter of Confession of sins in order to absolution in brief I would have you consider that anciently when Church discipline was strictly observed they who had been guilty of notorious scandalous crimes were obliged to make satisfaction to the Church by a publick penitent confession of them and when they had given sufficient evidence of their repentance by submitting to such penance as was imposed on them they were then publickly absolved and received into the communion of the Church from which they were before cast out And whilst the Bishop or Priest did herein proceed according to the rules of the Gospel then what they remitted on earth would be remitted in heaven c. according to Ioh. 20. 23. But by degrees through the corruption of the times and the general loosness of mens manners this publick confession was in a great measure laid aside and instead of it only a private confession to the Priest required and absolution commonly granted upon very easie terms and this is that which is now so zealously pleaded for by those of the Romish Church As to the former our Church highly approves of it as a godly discipline and sometimes it is at this day practised amongst us But as to private confessions there is no absolute necessity of them at all times For when our sins have been private such as have given no offence to the Church or our Neighbours but only to Almighty God here it may suffice that we humbly confess them to God himself speedily forsaking the same and then shall we be sure to find mercy through our Blessed Saviour for so God hath promised in his holy word without requiring us to confess them to men also L. But they commonly urge that of St. Jim 5. 16. Confess your fauâ—â—s one to another c. T. This is indeed very requisite when men have given offence one to another but here is no mention of a Priest to whom this confession ought to be made Or suppose that he is here chiefly intended yet is this confession no further needful than as may give evidence of a sincere repentace and may serve to procure the Priests prayers and directions or sometimes absolution But to this end it 's no way necessary for a man at all times to confess all his private faults L. Yes says my Author we must confess our sins to the Priest that he may judg of them and thereupon absolve the penitent For as Treasons says he committed against the Prince are tried by his Officers so men are to present themselves to the Priest as to a Tribunal that upon confession they may receive forgiveness which the Priest grants as Christs Lieutenant or Deputy T. There is no likeness in the case Princes are but finite creatures and cannot attend to the trial of all causes in their own persons and therefore they employ their Officers who are to hear them and to determine according to Law But Almighty God is himself present every where and always ready to receive the humble confessions of a penitent sinner and upon his sincere repentance will for Christs sake receive him to favour whilst neither Priest nor any mortal man whatsoever may be privy either to his faults or to his confession of them And yet to keep to his similitude as men are not bound to present themselves before the Kings Officers for a trial but when the King by his Law requires it no more are people bound to make confession to the Priest further than God by his word enjoyns it but he has no where enjoyn'd the confession of all our private faults And as the Kings Judges are to pronounce sentence according to Law so must the Priest according to the rules of the Gospel otherwise it is unjust and of no sorce This then I grant that so far as God hath appointed Ministers as his Officers to take notice of the crimes of the people and to pass sentence upon them so far the people are bound to apply themselves to their Ministers to follow their directions and submit to their sentence which if it be just God himself will confirm it Thus when any man is guilty of notorious crimes and by no admonitions will be reclaim'd then may the Minister justly proceed to Excommunicate such an obstinate offender from the society and priviledges of the Christian Church and what he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven that is God approves of this sentence and will ratifie and confirm it so that if this man continue thus impenitent in his wickedness God will shut him out from the Kingdom of Heaven hereafter whom his Ministers have justly cast out of the Church here But if this scandalous sinner shall come in and acknowledg his offences and seriously profess his repentance and give sufficient evidence of the truth of it then hath the Minister whether Bishop or Priest power to absolve him to release him from the censures of the Church and receive him again into communion and may also upon the truth of this his repentance assure him of and declare to him the remission of his sins from God himself who hath given to his Ministers
common people did all understand So that by their arguing this was a defect of the Divine Wisdom to let the Scriptures come abroad at first in such a Tongue as the people were well acquainted with Yet more than this how frequently do we find in the Old Testament express commands given to the people to acquaint themselves with the Law and to instruct their children in it with all possible care and diligence as you may see Deut. 6. 6. and in many other places This was the commendation both of Timothy and his Parents that from a child he had known the holy Scriptures c. 2 Tim. 3. 15. Thus our Saviour bids the people Search the Scriptures Joh. 5. 39. This was the honour of the Bereans that they examined the Apostles Doctrine by the Scriptures Act. 17. 11. And this the Apostles still inculcated that the people should take heed to the Scriptures as to a light shining in a dark place Now all this is spoken of the Books of the Old Testament and surely there is every whit as much reason that we Christians should be as diligent in reading and studying the New Testament where we have the most heavenly Discourses of our Blessed Saviour with the History of his Life and Death and the Epistles written by his holy Apostles in all which we to this day are most nearly concerned even the meanest of the people as well as others and therefore they ought to have not only leave but all possible encouragement to be very conversant therein This we are sure was the judgment of the Christian Church of old for soon after the Apostles times these Holy Scriptures especially the Books of the New Testament were translated into the several Languages of those people who had embraced the Gospel by holy and learned men who were desirous to establish the Christian Religion amongst them And so we find in succeeding times the Christian Writers very earnestly recommending the Study of Scripture to the common people even to the women themselves and highly applauding those who did most exercise themselves herein The people then had Bibles in their hands and it was accounted an high crime to deliver them up to the Heathens that sought for them That Latin Translation of the Bible which is now in use amongst the Learned of the Church of Rome is a plain testimony against themselves for Latin was once the vulgar tongue of the people of Rome and the Countries about it and for their sakes the Bible was translated out of Hebrew and Greek into that language which was then in use And though some may mistake the sense of Scripture and as St. Peter speaks may wrest it to their own destruction yet is that no reason why it should be kept from common people nor does St. Peter say the least word to any such purpose he himself writing his Epistles to be read by them But rather he exhorts them to beware of being led away by the error of the wicked and to grow in grace and the knowledg of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ 2 Pet. 3. 17 18. And surely there is no better way to encrease in the knowledg of Christ than by studying his own holy Gospel where we have a full account of him and of all that he did and suffered for our sakes and wherein are contain'd all the Doctrines and precepts of the Christian Religion If some men abuse wine it does not therefore follow that even these men themselves must be always kept from it if they may be reduced to sobriety and moderation in the use of it much less ought wine to be therefore generally forbidden to others of whom it is not known that they do or will abuse it Neither yet does the comparison hold for wine may in it self be hurtful to some mens bodies so that water may be fitter for them but if any man receive hurt from the Scriptures the fault is not in them but in himself who falls into error through his own ignorance or inconsiderateness And the best way to prevent or cure his error is not to forbid him the use of holy Scripture but instruct him how to use it aright perswade him chiefly to mind that which is plain and easie and to frame his belief and practice accordingly by which means he shall by the grace of God be enabled to know and do all that is necessary to Salvation As for other matters that are more difficult and less needful let him pass over them or stay till he find an Interpreter He that is thus humble and modest will be far from abusing Scripture to his hurt and he that is not so may as well mistake and abuse those Doctrines which he meets with in Sermons and Catechisms and therefore by that reason should be kept from them too Nay if this reason hold good that Scripture must be withheld from the people because they are in danger of perverting them to ill purposes then they should rather be kept from the learned than the ignorant for we shall find that commonly men of learning and knowledg have been the Authors of those Heresies which have at any time disturbed the Church whilst men of meaner capacities but of more piety and humility have by the benefit of the Holy Scriptures been preserved in the truth But are they indeed so careful of the people that out of pure kindness to their souls they will not trust them with these holy Books for fear they should abuse them to their hurt How comes it to pass then that instead of these they provide other Books for them in which there is a thousand times more danger I mean Images and Pictures which they call Lay-mens Books from whence they are rather like to learn Superstition and Idolatry than any thing which is good Thus even in a literal sense whilst their people need bread they put them off with stocks and stones To say nothing of those other Books which have heretofore been very common among them viz. their lying Legends composed by lazy Monks full of such ridiculous stories and gross falsehoods that they are now ashamed to have them seen amongst Protestants L. He compares the Scriptures to a Fathers Testament but surely it 's an odd way to make the Son understand his Father's Will by wresting it out of his hands and putting him off with other writings instead of it T. An odd way it is indeed and gives just cause to suspect those of ill design who make use of it For when the Son meets with any obscure clause in his Father's Will though he go to consult the Lawyer about it yet he still keeps the Will in his own hand or a true Copy of it But if the Lawyer should by violence take it from him and let him know no more of it than he sees good the poor man might well think himself very much wronged Especially if the Lawyer should proceed by virtue of this Will to encroach upon the
tolerably well give answer thereto from what I have already heard from you Nor do I find here much that is new but many of the same things in other words drest up with much art and cunning T. I am glad you are so good a proficient and since you tell me this let us if you will for a while at least take a new method in our following discourse Give me your Book and for the trial of your skill I 'le propose thence the arguments which your Author makes use of and you shall return answers to the same L. I shall do my best but must crave your assistance when I am at a loss T. That you may be sure I shall readily give and if we meet with many the same things which we have had already we shall the quicklier dispatch them Only something I have to premise before I come to his arguments In the beginning of this his last Chapter he brings in his Scholar desiring to be furnish'd with some pregnant arguments for the reducing of Sectaries to the Catholick Church which he says they have groundlesly forsaken and cruelly persecuted Now what ground we whom he unjustly calls Sectaries had to forsake the Romish Church not the Catholick we have already shewn and shall do more but whilst he would insinuate that we Protestants have been grievous persecutors of Papists this I am sure is a very groundless charge and I wonder he had the impudence to fasten it upon us especially considering how infamous their own Church hath long been for the most cruel bloody persecution of poor Protestants meerly upon account of Religion and that in this Kingdom to go no further Whereas it 's very rare that any Papist hath suffered the loss of his life amongst us purely upon that account nor should I desire ever to see such severity used toward them or any other Sect if they will but live peaceably and not disturb the Government But most certain and undeniable it is that many of them have suffered for downright Treason and Rebellion as in the Gunpowder-Plot and at several other times And indeed our Laws make it Treason for any of the Kings subjects to go to the Church of Rome for Orders and then come over to draw away the people into communion with that Church this being look'd on as a seducing of them from their Allegiance to his Majesty which no wise Prince will suffer And with good reason is it so look'd on since few of these Priests will take the Oath of Allegiance and do reckon themselves exempt from the Civil power and both they and their deluded proselytes are taught to prefer the power of a foreign Potentate viz. the Bishop of Rome before that of their own Prince Some of them indeed say not all that this his power is only in Spirituals but whilst the Pope is judge in his own cause what either is spiritual or has a tendency to it may he not under this pretence extend his power as far as he pleases as you heard before But though in this and other instances the principles of Papists are extremely dangerous to the Civil Government yet I wonder whether Protestants may be permitted to live as quietly in Italy or Spain as thousands of Papists do here in England Nay at this day even in France it self what disturbances and persecutions do poor Protestants meet with and that chiefly as is said through the malicious instigations of fierce and furious Clergy men whilst yet we hear not that they can in the least charge them with any seditious or unpeaceable behaviour What impudence then is it for Papists to cast such dishonourable reflections upon our Government whether of Church or State as if we were guilty of I know not what rigorous proceedings against them Whereas it will be hard to find any where in Christendom more mildness than in the Church of England nor any where more cruelty and severity than in that of Rome whose bloody Inquisition has been long talked of throughout the world But to follow your Author yet before he brings forth his Arguments he tells us that Christ sends us to the Church quoting Matt. 18. 17. That if we neglect to hear the Church we must be counted for no better than Heathens and Publicans What this makes to his purpose I do not well understand For this seems plainly to be meant of that particular Church whereof we are Members in peaceable communion wherewith we ought to live rendring chearful obedience to all its lawful injunctions But what 's this to the Church of Rome which neither has any Authority over us in England and whose impositions are notoriously sinful He next quotes that of St. Paul 1 Tim. 3. 15. That the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Which is true both of the Catholick Church and of every particular Church that is a sound Member of it For hereby is declared that the truth of the Gospel that is the Christian Religion is carefully preserved openly profest and taught in the Christian Church The expression here made use of is commonly thought to allude to the fixing up of Writings upon a Pillar in some publick place that they may be seen and read of all like that in Iosh. 8. 32. But still I am to seek what this makes for his advantage If he only intend by these Quotations to prove that a Man ought to live in communion with the true Church of Christ and to behave himself peaceably and obediently in that particular Church of which he is a Member Who denies it Or what will he gain by it Since this tends nothing to prove it our duty to become Members of the Romish Church to believe all her Doctrines and obey her commands Well but this is that he will now demonstrate we are all bound to and that by five Arguments all of them as he fancies most strong and unanswerable which we shall particularly survey and examine the strength of them His first is That Church is to be heard in which there is most assurance that one is in the way to Salvation but in the Roman Church there is most assurance of this and therefore she is to be heard and obey'd What say you to this L. I deny that there is most assurance of our being in the way to Salvation in the Roman Church T. And well you may but thus he goes on to prove it Protestants grant that one living and dying in the Roman Church may be saved else they condemn all their Ancestors to the pit of Hell and therefore those of that Church have most assurance of their Salvation since it 's granted by all that they are in the way to it and thus he says it has been held by all the World time out of mind And to give full strength to his Argument we must add what he has in other places that Papists deny that a Protestant can be saved whilst Protestants grant that a Papist may and
therefore does not the Papist seem to be of the surer side L. No but the quite contrary I think may be concluded from this very Argument since as I have before heard from you this very uncharitableness of the Papists in condemning all that are not of their way makes their own Salvation to be very hazardous Judge not saith our Saviour lest ye be judged whilst the Protestant by his Charity shews himself to be a better Christian and consequently in the surer way to Salvation And had I no other Argument against turning Papist this alone would keep me from it that I should then stand bound by the Decrees of Popes and Popish Councils to look upon all men in a state of Damnation who are out of the Romish Church for so they have determined as I have often heard and my Author seems plainly to assert it T. There is a great deal of Truth and Reason in what you say For this is the current Doctrine of their Church though some of the common people will not own it But beside this it is to be considered that though a Protestant may have charitable thoughts of an honest Papist yet this makes nothing at all for the commendation of Popery since it is not for this that he is saved not for his embracing of Propery I mean but for his belief of the Gospel and his obedience to it In the mean time Popery is his disease and makes his condition very hazardous only we hope that possibly he may be saved notwithstanding it As a man that has the Plague or has taken poison it 's possible he may recover but yet his condition is very sad and full of danger and no man in his wits will venture upon Poison or a Pesthouse because there is a possibility of escaping Whatever Charity then we may have for a well-meaning Papist I 'le assure you we have no good opinion of Popery but do with great reason assert that they who embrace it do run a great hazard of their Salvation whilst they entertain Doctrines not only false in themselves but very pernicious in their effects being great hindrances to piety and holiness without which no man shall see God And beside their bad Doctrines great is their danger whilst they corrupt Religion by their Idolatrous worship and here in this Kingdom disobey their Rulers and Schismatically withdraw from that Church with which they ought to hold Communion and this meerly in compliance with the usurpation of a foreign Power These and many other ill things they do which we would not for a World be guilty of yet after all we are not rash to pass a Sentence of Damnation upon them to their own Master let them stand or fall to whose mercy we leave them whilst they deliver us up to Satan But this while our Charity gives small encouragement to a wise man to turn Papist L. If the rest of his Arguments be like this there 's no such strength in them as he boasts of T. You must not expect good Arguments for a bad Cause As to what he talks of condemning our Ancestors to Hell it no way follows though we should be of opinion that Salvation is not ordinarily to be had in the present Church of Rome For those Ancestors of ours who first embraced Christianity were no Papists paid no homage to the Bishop of Rome neither in those days had that Church defiled it self with those corruptions which were brought in by degrees in after Ages And withal the ignorance of our forefathers in those corrupter times may do somewhat to excuse them but should we continue in their errors who now enjoy the clearer light of the Gospel we were utterly inexcusable Whilst we have charity for our Ancestors we ought to take care of our own Souls Neither yet was there any time when the whole World own'd the Romane Church to be the only way to Salvation as he boldly and falsly asserts L. Surely no For when Religion was most pure in the Church of Rome no doubt but the Members of any other sound and orthodox Church might be saved as well as those of that Church which did not then claim jurisdiction over all other Churches as you have formerly told me nor was it looked upon as necessary to Salvation for a Man to own the Popes Supremacy in those early days T. Most certainly it was not nor is there any more reason that now it should I am sure this is none which your Author has produced viz. That Protestants generally grant it possible for a Papist to be saved whilst Papists will not grant that a Protestant can On which I shall bestow a few more words And pray take notice that this is a very deceitful way of arguing and has little of strength in it if it be well examined A Protestant is never the worse for a Papists hard thoughts of him nor a Papist the better for our greater charity to him We have other Rules and Measures by which we are to proceed in the present case and are to consider whether the Papist has any good reason for his uncharitable opinion else he himself may be hurt by it but not we nor our Cause Sometimes I grant in matters of difference a Man may be inclinable to yield to that which he perceives both parties are agreed in but this will by no means be found in the case before us For the Protestant does not grant the Papist to be in a safe way to Salvation nor yet that Popery truly so called is at all the way to Salvation but rather a great hindrance to it the utmost he grants is only this that possibly a Papist notwithstanding the dangerous errors and corruptions of their Church may be saved But in the mean time he asserts and he proves that the belief and practice of the Holy Christian Religion which is most purely profest amongst Protestants is the surest and safest way to Salvation Now when a Papist shall come and tell you that Protestants are no Christians have no Faith no Holiness are out of the Catholick Church and therefore cannot possibly be saved all this noise and nonsence ought no more to affect you than the ravings of a Mad-Man or the like rude and insolent Language of furious Quakers who like Mad-men indeed at their first coming up used to cry aloud to any Man that opposed them Thou art damn'd Man thou art damn'd And at this rate I have heard do the wretched besotted followers of Muggleton talk at this day And truly herein both they and the Papists deserve to be regarded all alike That is the Men pitied and their Censures slighted and despised And yet to shew you more plainly if it may be the folly of this way of Arguing let me give you a like instance whereby you may judge of it which with others of the same nature I find made use of by some of our Writers to this same purpose Suppose we then a Man sick
of some dangerous Disease and seeking to an able Physician for advice which when he has received and is about to follow it in comes a bold Mountebank and tells the Man it 's utterly impossible he should ever recover by hearkning to his Physician but if he will be guided by him all shall be well for he has an infallible Cure at hand that will certainly do the work Now suppose the Physician be so modest that he will not answer this impudent Quack in his own language nor say it 's impossible for his Medicines to do any good only he deals honestly with his patient and tells him of the danger of trusting himself in such a Mans hands who takes very desperate courses and where he cures one kills Twenty but for himself he shall prescribe nothing but what he can demonstrate to be safe and good and which through God's blessing hath often been very effectual Now in point of prudence what ought the patient to do in this case What must he reject a skilful and safe Physician because he speaks with modesty and caution and chuse the daring ignorant Mountebank because he talks big and boldly and boasts of Infallible Receipts of a certain and speedy Cure L. No surely by no means T. Yet so he should do by this Authors Argument for the choice of their Church because forsooth she condemns all others and commends her self talking as much of Infallibility as the most cheating Mountebank is used to do and with much what the same reason and truth The Case is so like that I need not trouble you with applying it L. No you need not For I understand it well enough and as well do I discern the weakness of his Argument T. And yet for your fuller satisfaction if need be I would have you read that Sermon I formerly told you of on 1 Cor. 3. 13. by a Reverend Divine of the Church of England where you will find this piece of sophistry so shamefully bafled and exposed that he must be a very silly and shameless Priest that will ever offer to make use of it more Wherefore to all that hath been said on this subject I shall only suggest one thing more to your consideration viz. that so far as this Argument hath any force in it it may with great advantage be retorted on Papists themselves For if that way be safest to be chosen in which both parties are agreed then are we Protestants clearly on the safer side For they themselves own the Scriptures which we embrace they approve of the Creeds which we hold they cannot but allow of the Worship of God in the name of Jesus Christ with all other the substantials of our Religion which as I have often said is nothing else but Christianity it self But now we do utterly disown the additions which the Romish Church has made to the Ancient Creeds many of their traditions we also reject as being plainly repugnant to the Holy Scriptures we condemn their worship of Images of Angels and Saints as being neither commanded by God nor practised by the Church of Christ in the Primitive times Hence then you may be informed what is safest to chuse and follow whether the plain and pure Religion of Jesus Christ profest in our Church and acknowledged by all Christians in the World even by the Papists themselves or to swallow down all those new Articles which their Church has added to the Christian Faith and defile our selves with those superstitions with which they have corrupted the Worship of God Many of which Doctrines and Practices are disapproved by all Christians but those of their own Sect and which upon good grounds we believe to be so utterly unlawful and pernicious that they make the condition of those in the Romish Church very hazardous and for our selves should we embrace them we could have no hopes of Salvation Judge then upon the whole what is safest to be chosen L. I confess I see little or no difficulty in the Case wherefore pray proceed to the second Argument T. I shall repeat to you what he calls so though for my part I find nothing in it that may deserve the name of an Argument Thus it runs That Church is not to be heard whose Authors and chief Doctors are meer Cozeners and Impostors and such he says are all but those of the Roman Church and therefore are not to be heard L. I deny that the Authors and Doctors of our Church are Cozeners and Impostors T. Thus he goes about to prove it They all say that they will reform the Roman Church with the pure Word of God and yet they have never done it nor will ever be able and therefore they are all meer Cozeners and Impostors This is all the proof he gives L. This all seems to me just nothing for I reckon that the Author of our Religion was no other than our Blessed Saviour and the first Teachers of it were the holy Apostles and Evangelists who taught it by their Preaching and then committed it to Writing in the Holy Word of God which we most readily embrace and in which our Religion is wholly contained And surely these were no Cozeners or Impostors but rather they who have corrupted Religion by their own novel inventions contrary to this Holy Word T. This is very true that you say but here by the Authors of our Church he means those Learned men who were instrumental for the reforming it from those inventions which he pleads for as a part of Religion L. This I believe to be his meaning But since these good men by Gods assistance did actually reform our Church by the pure Word of God from those Popish corruptions wherewith it was before polluted I admire why he should say they were Cozeners and Impostors for not doing what they pretended they would when as they have really done it T. And admire you still may For I cannot guess at his reason except by the Roman Church he means that particular Church which is at Rome or else the whole Sect of Papists all who own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and so stile themselves the Romish Church Take it in either of these senses and I confess this Romish Church is not yet reformed But this rather shews their obstinacy than any thing of deceitfulness in those who have attempted their Reformation If the Prophets and pious people of old would have healed Babylon and she would not be healed was this any dishonour to the Prophets Neither surely were any of the first Reformers so vain as to say that they would certainly reform the whole Church of Rome though they might heartily desire it and in their several places diligently endeavour it And thanks be to God through his assistance and blessing these their endeavours have been most happily successful in many Nations of the World and particularly in this our Kingdom of England for the delivering of our Church from the Usurpation of the Pope and
bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
the Iewish Church by the solemn rite of Circumcision and since our Saviour hath no where given the least intimation that this priviledg should be taken from them I can see no reason why the children of Christian Parents may not be solemnly consecrated to God by Baptism and so admitted members of the Christian Church And to omit many other Texts which speak in favour of infants this without any wresting of the words may be fairly drawn from that commission given to the Apostles and their Successors Mat. 28. 19. Go ye therefore and teach or disciple all Nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost They were to make Disciples of whole Nations which surely comprehends both Parents and Children First the Parents were to be instructed in the Christian Faith and upon their profession of it to be baptized And then they themselves being devoted to God and entred into Covenant with him since Parents have power over their children to dispose of them for their good and to lay engagements on them for that end surely it was lawful for them to devote their children also to God and to enter them into Covenant with him by Baptism thereby laying a strict obligation upon them when they come to years of discretion to perform their part of this holy Covenant if ever they hope for any benefit by it the Parents also being bound to acquaint their children with their duty so soon as they are capable of learning it Thus when any one from among the heathens became a proselyte to the Iews when he himself was circumcised so were his children also Yea learned men tell us that it was also the custom to wash these proselytes in pure water and that very probably our Saviour was pleased to accommodate himself to this same usage of theirs in his instituting of Baptism for the more solemn admission of members into his Church Now as an excellent Writer argues suppose that our Blessed Saviour instead of the word Baptizing should have used that of circumcising and have said Go teach all Nations circumcising them in the name c. would not all men have been apt to think that the same priviledg which the Iews had of admitting their children into Covenant by Circumcision that Christian Parents also should have the like why then may not the same be reasonably argued from the words though Baptism be here named and not Circumcision Very probable it is that the Apostles thus understood it and that they practised accordingly when we read of their Baptizing such and such persons and their housholds as Act. 16. 15 33. amongst whom there might be some children for any thing that can be shewn to the contrary And certain we are that very early in the Christian Church insants were admitted to Baptism and thence hath it continued to this day to be the general custom of all Churches throughout the world And pray take good notice that though our Church allows nothing to be imposed upon our belief or practice as necessary to salvation but what is contain'd in Gods holy Word yet she hath great regard to antiquity to the customs of the truly Catholick Church and the current Doctrine of the Fathers and requires Ministers to have due respect thereto in their Exposition of Scripture And therefore without any contradiction to her self may very well admit the observation of such customs that having so much ground from Scripture are recommended also by the early and general practice of the Christian Church This I say she may very well do but is by no means thereby obliged to receive all the traditions and customs of the Roman Church for many of which nothing can be truly pleaded either from Scripture or antiquity but very much against them from both L. This is very plain and satisfactory Pray let us have his next question T. It is this Can you make it appear to me how your Sectaries can with reason and sufficient ground condemn all the Catholicks that were so many ages before Luther and Calvin for being no better than heathens and convince me that by adhering to you I shall be more secure of my salvation than if I joyn my self to them that have been held time out of mind in most parts of the world for the men that have the true and only saving Religion What answer give you to this L. First I know no body that does thus condemn all Catholicks before Luther and Calvin For as to those Christians in the first ages of the Church who truly deserve the name of Catholicks whether of the Roman Church or any other we are so far from condemning that we admire and applaud them we approve of their Doctrine contain'd in the ancient Creeds and do imbrace and profess it we honour their memory and endeavour to imitate their example But as those of the Roman Church in latter ages whom he means I suppose by his Catholicks though we do not say they are as bad as heathens yet we do truly say that they have very much corrupted Christian Religion by false Doctrines and Superstitious usages and therefore we think it a much safer way to salvation to adhere to the ancient certain truths of Christianity every where received and to worship God in that pure and holy manner which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles both taught and used than to embrace those additions made by the Roman Church which are no parts of true and saving Religion nor have ever been so accounted by the generality of Christians And though our ancestors might have some excuse from the state of this Church in their days yet we their posterity should be utterly inexcusable if now that our Church has so justly reformed her self from Popish corruptions we should break off from her communion and go over to the Church of Rome that hates to be reformed This were to add the guilt of Schism to that of Superstition T. Your answer is very clear and full and may well enough serve for the solution of his fifth Query which is to the same purpose with the former viz. Can you make evident at least that in your little flock or in Luther and Calvin their guides more holiness and virtue was to be found than in the Catholicks And that it is this little flock of yours not the Catholicks that go the narrow way that leads to life L. To this may easily be answered as you have formerly instructed me that though Luther and Calvin were learned and good men who in their own times and places did much service for the Reformation of Religion yet they never had authority in our Church nor do we own them as our guides The blessed Iesus is the Author of our Religion and after him the holy Apostles were the teachers of it being no other than Christianity it self and consequently the true way to eternal happiness even that narrow way of truth and holiness which the whole flock of Christ
means he then by saying that none of the Ancients consent with us in all things In every little oppinion it 's scarce likely there were or ever will be two men in the World that do exactly agree No such agreement I am sure is to be found amongst the Divines of the Roman Church But as sure it is that we agree with the Apostles and Ancient Churches in all things material and substantial in all points of Faith necessary to Salvation For we embrace the same Holy Scriptures and the same Creeds which they did What means he again by saying that the Apostles were not of the Lutheran or Calvinistical Sect What that they were not followers of Luther or Calvin They were not like indeed but it 's enough I hope if Luther and Calvin were followers of the Apostles Thus what if he should say that the Apostles were not of the Church of England Is it not sufficient that our Church embraces the same Faith which the Apostles planted in all places where they came Wherefore we may with great reason conclude contrary to his extravagant and most uncharitable inferences that we have the true Christian Faith in our Church and not any new-fangled invention c. If the Apostles Creed be a Summary of the true Faith I am sure we have it since we do most heartily embrace this Creed and those Holy Scriptures whence it 's taken and therefore we are none of those false Prophets foretold in Scripture For whilst we keep close to God's Word as the rule of our Faith we are safe enough from deserving any such charge But how will they of the Romish Church acquit themselves from it whilst they have brought in many devices of their own to which the Apostles and Primitive Christians were meer strangers and therefore cannot be said to consent with Papists therein Such are their Doctrines of Purgatory Transubstantiation c. Such are their customs of praying in an unknown Tongue having private Masses where the Priest only receives in their publick Assemblies their half-Communions giving only the Bread to the people when they do Communicate c. None of these things were anciently taught or used in the Church and some of them but lately established amongst themselves These therefore we may justly say are new-fangled inventions devised of their own Brain contrary to Holy Scriptures And they who broach and maintain them are in this respect false Teachers and probably some of those who are foretold in Scripture at least they and their false Doctrines are condemned by it and that 's enough for our purpose L. It is so indeed and enough have you said to weaken and refute this his first Proposition If the rest have no more strength they are far from deserving that great title he gives them I shall rehearse the next if you please T. Presently you shall only take notice from what hath been said how plain the Answer is to that captious Question of theirs Where was your Religion before Luther Where was it Even there whereever the Gospel was received whereever the Christian Doctrine was own'd for that is our Religion and nothing but that It was therefore in the Primitive Church that was planted by the Apostles and in the whole Catholick Church in all succeeding Ages Our Religion was both in the East and the West even in the Roman Church it self For we grant they still retain'd the Christian Faith they kept and do still keep the Apostles Creed though they have added several new Articles to it and that especially in their Council of Trent which appear'd not in the World quite so soon as Luther Now the truly Catholick Ancient Christian Faith we receive but their new-coin'd Articles we reject So that before the Reformation our Religion was in their Church as Gold in a heap of Dirt or as one long since exprest it as the pure Flower amongst the Bran or as Corn among Tares And by the Reformation we only wash'd away this Dirt sifted out the Bran and plucked up the Tares But the old Religion the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles remains pure and entire L. But say they where did the Apostles teach that there is no Purgatory no Transubstantiation c Yet thus the Protestants teach and therefore they consent not with the Apostles T. Yes certainly but they do for as I have formerly told you we therefore say there is no Purgatory c. because the Apostles say no such things which be sure they would have done had they been true since they are such weighty and material points as the Church of Rome now accounts them What the Apostles taught that we receive what they taught not we refuse as knowing they were faithful in delivering all that they received of the Lord. Judge then which of us consents most with the Apostles we who receive all their Doctrines but reject what they never taught of they who teach these new Doctrines which neither the Apostles nor any of their first followers ever delivered nor were they for some Hundred years after generally profest so much as in their own Church Yea these Novelties were never directly and formally established as Articles of Faith and made necessary for all men of their Communion to believe till in these latter Ages some of them as I take it not till the very Council of Trent not yet an Hundred and fifty years since which they call a General Council though packt up of Bishops of their own Sect and the major part the Popes own creatures who used all the foul arts imaginable to carry things according to his humour as is plainly to be seen in the History of that Council written by some of their own Church Now in respect of these Articles in which Popery chiefly consists we may with great reason retort the question and demand Where was your Religion before the Council of Trent And were the Apostles of the same opinion with these Trent Fathers Compare their Creeds together and it will easily appear Yea compare that of Trent with any other of the old Creeds such as the Nicene or Constantinopolitan and it will easily appear what additions they have made to the ancient Faith whereas our Church receives those very same Creeds without addition or diminution To conclude this though we readily grant their Popish Errors to have been before our Reformation from them for they could not be cast out before they were brought in yet the great truths of our Religion were taught and received in the Church some Ages before those Errors were ever heard of Our Religion then did not first appear in Luther's days when the Reformation was wrought but is as old as since the time of Christ and his Apostles being nothing else but pure Christianity resormed from the errors and abuses of Popery These things I have already oft mentioned but could not well avoid the repetition of them on occasion of this his first Proposition which by this time you see
therefore whilst the people take the Flesh under the species of Bread this may very well serve without taking the Wine too But if this be a good reason Why then need the consecrating Priest take the Wine Or why need our Saviour have appointed both Bread and Wine to be made use of in this his Holy Supper Here then you have a plain instance of their practising contrary to the Scripture in so weighty a matter as the Administring the Holy Communion To this may be joyn'd their custom of private Masses or Communions if that be not a contradiction the Priest himself many times receiving alone and none of the people who are present partaking with him contrary to the first institution of this Holy Sacrament and to the very nature and design of it as it is a Communion and contrary also to the practice of the Primitive Church To these may a great many more easily be added of which we have formerly taken notice Such as having their Prayers in an unknown Tongue contrary to the Apostles direction 1 Cor. 14. Their Worshipping of Saints and Angels which is forbidden in all those places that command us to Worship God alone in the name of Jesus Christ our only Mediator and most expresly Col. 2. 18. Rev. 22. 9. Also their Worship of Images and of the Host contrary to the second Commandment And for an instance of their false Doctrines many of which we have often mentioned we need go no further than that palpable one of Transubstantiation which he mentions as agreeable to Scripture that says This is my body But how little these words make for his purpose we have before shewn and that their plain meaning is This is the Sacrament of my Body or the representation and commemoration of it and the way of conveying the benefits that come by it according to the constant use of the like expressions in the matter of Sacraments even as the Paschal Lamb is called the Passover of which it was only a solemn Memorial But that the natural substance of Bread and consequently of Wine remains after Consecration we have proved from the Apostle who again and again calls it so 1 Cor. 11. How then can he say that without ground we separate from the Romish Church Since if there were nothing else to be blamed this alone were sufficient reason to keep out of their Communion since in order to it they require our belief of a Doctrine most apparently false namely that of Transubstantiation and enjoyn a practice founded upon this Doctrine which is notoriously sinful viz. the Worship of the Consecrated Elements as if they were now turned into the substance of Christ's Body and Blood yea into whole Christ both as to his Divine and Humane Nature Now they themselves as you have heard do grant that if there was no such change made by Consecration this Worship would be idolatrous and therefore we being upon good grounds assured that no such change there is do utterly abhor the very thoughts of such Idolatrous worship and do believe our selves bound in Conscience to Almighty God to undergo a Thousand deaths rather than be guilty of it yea though we lived in Popish Countries But besides this we here in England owe no manner of obedience to the Bishop of Rome nor are under any obligation to forsake the Communion of our own Church for that of the Romish but should be guilty of that hainous sin of Schism by so doing as the Papists amongst us are at this day of which more in another place As to what he talks that they who go from their Church can give no reason why they should rather turn to Luther than to the Calvinists c. it concerns not us in the least who neither turn to the one or the other but continue in Communion with our own Church in which we were Baptized and live in obedience to our own Rulers in Church and State whom God hath set over us Nor do I discern by what reason he makes this silly inference nor yet for what purpose But let me hear his next Argument L. It cannot be proved that ever at any time were admitted any Priests that were not first duly consecrated by Bishops Wherefore we rightly infer that all Lutheran Ministers Calvinists or any other Sects not Consecrated according to the old custom of the Holy Church are for both from the name and reality of the Divine Priesthood and so that in their Cene or Supper as they call it they give but a meer piece of Bread as also that they have no power to Absolve from Sins but send away people as entangled and defiled with Sin as they were when they came to them T. As to this Argument we of the Church of England are nothing concerned in it since our Priests receive Ordination from Bishops and therefore have as full authority for the exercise of their Ministerial function as those of any Christian Church in the World Some other Reformed Churches also do embrace Episcopal Government As for such who want it we shall not enter into a dispute concerning the validity of their Orders But this I think we may safely assert that if the people be duly qualified for the Lord's Supper as St. Paul himself calls it 1 Cor. 11. 20. by a firm belief of the Gospel and sincere love and obedience to our Blessed Saviour they shall not want the benefits that are promised to worthy Communicants through any defect or irregularity in the Ordination of their Ministers And if they do truly repent of their sins and forsake them they shall for Christ's sake obtain forgiveness from God though never any Priest should give them Absolution But on the other hand our Writers have shewn that according to the common principle received in the Romish Church That the truth of Sacraments depends upon the intention of the Priest the people cannot be certain at any time that they have true Sacraments no nor whether he be a true Priest that Administers them But I shall trouble you with nothing more on this Argument L. There is no need since it reaches not our Church in the least I shall therefore proceed to the fifth which is this It cannot be found in the whole Holy Scripture that nothing is to be believed but what clearly and expresly is contained written in the same whence follows the ruine and overthrow of the ground-work on which Lutherans Calvinists and other Sectaries rely when they affirm that nothing is to be believed but what is expresly set down in Holy Writ T. I wonder who says so Every thing is to be believed that has sufficient evidence of its truth whether it be in Scripture or not But this we say and this I suppose he means to argue against that nothing is of necessity to be believed in order to Salvation but what is contain'd in Holy Scripture Which in effect is the same as to say that the Holy Scripture contains all necessary
more fit to be so than bare tradition which they of the Church of Rome so vainly boast of But for your further satisfaction in this point I shall refer you to a most solid and rational discourse concerning the Rule of Faith done by a Reverend Divine of our Church and shall now hasten to what remains L. His seventh Argument is this It cannot be shewn that for these 1500 years there hath been any Catholick who held that the Pope of Rome was Antichrist or that did revile and rail at the holy Sacrifice of the Mass or lastly that did blame Invocation of Saints the usual praying for the Dead and such like works of piety belonging to Faith and Religion which the whole world hath laudably practised and reverenced for 1500 years Wherefore it is most evident that Lutherans Calvinists c. do most wickedly when they dare revile such things T. These points have all of them been sufficiently discust already I have told you how one of their Popes did assert him to be the forerunner of Antichrist who should assume the title of Universal Bishop which his Successors have now a long time done whilst they claim a Supremacy over the Universal Church But which is more material I have she-wn how contrary the Doctrines and practices wherein Popery consists are to the nature and design of true Christianity and therefore may well enough be stiled Antichristian I have shewn that there is not properly a Sacrifice in the Communion but a commemoration of Christs Sacrifice only once offered and have also manifested that there is neither Scripture Reason nor good Antiquity to be pleaded on behalf of that Invocation of Saints and praying for the Dead which are now used in the Church of Rome As for railing and reviling I would not be guilty of it 'T is enough to disprove their errors and renounce them to shew the falshood and mischiefs of them and this I hope is not to be accounted railing In a word whatever he pretends no Christian Writers for four or five hundred years after our Saviour did assert the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar on Earth and under him supreme Governour of the whole Christian Church Nor did they teach or practise such Invocation of Saints and praying for the Dead as are now in use amongst Papists And upon this account our Church hath with great reason and religion reformed her self from these and the like corrupt innovations L. Doubtless she has so and the weakness of his Arguments do the more assure me of it His last is nothing else but a repetition of what he has often said viz. That the first Authors of Christian faith in Germany Spain England c. have acknowledged and brought in no other faith nor have our forefathers received any other Faith than the Holy Catholick Roman which self-same we have received from our forefathers and have hitherto conserved Whence he concludes that Sectaries his common name for all Protestants have invented new opinions of their own and presented them to the people as a certain rule of Faith and the pure word of God and that consequently they are liable to the curse denounced against those who preach a new Gospel nor can ever hope to please God and attain eternal happiness being destitute of the right faith whereupon he advises his Scholar considering the nearness of death and the eternity of Hell torments to prefer the salvation of his Soul before all sublunary things T. So far his advice is good but 't is a wonder that any man who pretends to have a regard to his own or others souls and believe there is an Hell provided for such as make and love a lye dare be guilty of such notorious forgeries and calumnies as are contain'd in this his charge against Protestants as if they had proposed some new opinion of their own devising for a rule of Faith whilst it 's well known that we make the holy Word of God to be the only certain rule of it And even he himself a little before accused us for saying that nothing is to be believed but what is contained in Gods Word that is nothing as necessary to salvation as I have before granted and proved This he calls the ground-work of the Reformation and we do not deny it And that same Christian Faith which is contain'd in these holy Scriptures at large and briefly summ'd up in the Creed is that same Faith which the first planters of Christian Religion taught and established in our own and other Countries and this self-same do we retain to this day If then the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed as we commonly call it be a new invention so is our faith but if these contain an Abridgement of the truly ancient Catholick Faith then his charging us with new inventions is a most false and malicious slander so far are we from it that a great reason why we reject their Doctrines of the Supremacy and Infallibility of their Pope or Church with the rest of their Errors is because these are new inventions of their own and no part of the ancient Faith Wherefore instead of pronouncing the heavy sentence of damnation upon others which is true Popish charity it behoves them well to consider how they can exempt themselves from the curse threatned to those who preach another Gospel than the Apostles did which in some sort they do whilst they impose the Traditions of their Church of which the Apostles never spoke a syllable as of equal certainty and authority with the Holy Scriptures themselves But I am tired with his Arguments which still lead me so oft to repeat the same things Though I shall not repent it if it any way tend to give you more satisfaction L. I thank God I am well satisfied with your discourse and am now fully convinced that there is small strength in these his Arguments which he pretends to be such pregnant and unanswerable things But after all there remains something which he calls an evident demonstration that the Roman Catholick Church hath been and still is the true Church which I shall desire you to take into examination T. Yes very willingly and I doubt not but we shall soon find how little it deserves the name of a demonstration Though if it be possible for him to produce any thing that has an appearance of truth and reason sure he will now do it in the last place that it may leave the greater impression upon his Reader Let us hear then what he says CHAP. IV. An Answer to a pretended Demonstration That the Roman Church is the true Catholick Church L. THIS Demonstration which he so much boasts of is taken he says from one Dr. Baily who it seems revolted from our Church to that of Rome and thus it runs It will not be denied but that the Church of Rome was once a most excellent flourishing Mother-Church This Church could not cease to be such but she must fall
he hath no need of us nor receives any benefit from us when we have done all that was required we are to account our selves unprofitable servants that we have nothing but what we received from him that though death be properly the wages of sin yet eternal life is the free gift of God through Iesus Christ c. But yet on the other hand considering the gracious promise which God hath made to all true believers that continue patient in well-doing on this account we may safely grant that an holy life shall be most richly rewarded with everlasting happiness and good men in a large and more modest sense of the word may be said to deserve it in that they have by Gods grace performed the condition on which it was promised In this sense the Ancients commonly used the words merit and reward So in holy Scripture we read of a recompence of reward though such a one as is of grace not strict debt and true Christians are said to be worthy of this happiness Rev. 3. 4. and to have a right to enter into life that is according to the tenour of Gods gracious Covenant Revel 22. 14. Wherefore if they of the Romish Church will be satisfied with such concessions as these as perhaps the more modest of them will there need be no contention about these matters And some very learned and judicious Writers of our own and other Reformed Churches when they have come to state the controversie clearly and impartially have freely acknowleded that the difference betwixt us in t ese and some other points is not so great as some hot Disputants on both sides would make it However I shall not further enlarge on them for it is not my business to display all the Errors of the Roman Church nor indeed is it in my power much less do I desire to aggravate things and make any of their opinions seem worse than really they are But my design all along hath been to give you such a true and just account of things as might fix you in communion with the Church of England and preserve you from any inclination or thought of going over to Rome and that in brief for such plain reasons as these even because our Church is a sound part of the Catholick Church and has full authority over you by the Laws of God and the Land and since here all things necessary to Salvation may be enjoy'd and nothing is required that may be an hindrance to it Whereas on the other hand the Church of Rome has no jurisdiction over us in England nor ought to have and does also propose most unjust terms of Communion with which you cannot comply without apparent hazard of your Salvation since she requires all her members to embrace and profess gross Errors for Divine Truths and enjoyns the doing of many things as necessary duties which are very heinous sins against Gods express commands L. These reasons are indeed both plain and weighty such that I can easily understand and do feel their strength and by Gods assistance shall ever remain under the power of them T. I hope you will so And since you are so sensible of their truth and force give me leave before we part to beseech you always so to keep up the sense of them that you may thereby be secured from all attempts that may be made upon you not only by those of the Church of Rome but by such as are commonly called Protestant Dissenters though indeed by their separating principles and practices I think they dissent from all Protestant Churches whatever Let none of these then ever draw you into the way of separation from the Church of England under pretence of bringing you into purer societies where the word is more powerfully preached and Sacraments more purely administred L. I hope I shall never be wrought upon by such pretences as these for whilst in our Church we enjoy all things needful to Salvation and have nothing sinful imposed upon us surely it ought to be esteemed a very pure and sound Church in whose communion I ought to remain Nor can I see the least reason why I should disobey my Superiours and break the peace of this Church and separate from it to seek after I know not what greater purity in this corner or that T. Keep you to this and you will not easily be shaken For let Papists or Separatists object what they please most certain it is that in our Church the Gospel of Christ is most plainly and powerfully preached the holy Sacraments purely administred and the Worship of Almighty God gravely and solemnly performed our Prayers and Praises offered up to the true God in the name of Jesus Christ framed according to the will of God revealed in his Word and exprest in our own Tongue that so all the people may easily understand them be duly affected with them and heartily say Amen to them What then should hinder any good Christian from joyning with a Church so well constituted in a constant reverent attendance upon the Word Prayers and Sacraments which may with so much freedom and lawfulness here be enjoyed L. I am so far from knowing any reason to the contrary that I think we have cause to embrace this priviledg with great readiness and joy and with most hearty thankfulness to Almighty God for his singular mercy in affording us these blessed advantages above most other Nations in the world T. And yet you shall often hear some people either ignorantly or maliciously crying out of Popery Superstition Will-worship and I know not what which ought not to move you in the least L. There 's no reason to be moved with bare noise and ill words whilst I know nothing amongst us that deserves them T. It 's plain there is not for when you come to examine the matter their greatest objections against us are that we have Forms of Prayer there were more reason to object it as a fault if we had none that we kneel at the Communion and why may we not as well as at our Prayers That the Minister sometimes wears a Surplice why not as well as a Gown That he makes a transient sign of the Cross over the Childs forehead after Baptism and what hurt is in doing it more than in speaking the words of listing him under the banner of a Crucified Saviour Are not these very weighty matters to make such noise and disturbance about L. I have heard these things talked against by some people but never met with any solid argument to prove them sinful T. No nor I am confident ever will Very easie it were to answer the common objections against them and to shew the lawfulness of them whilst there is nothing to be found in Gods Word to the contrary and where there is no law there 's no transgression But something of this nature I have done otherwhere and you may find many excellent Discourses to this purpose written by the Divines of
much disturbance to both Moreover I thank God I am so fully convinced not only of the lawfulness and duty but of the great and unspeakable advantage of living in communion with the Church of England that I feel not in my self the least inclination to depart from it For here we have the Holy Scriptures the food of our souls freely allow'd us and daily read amongst us very frequently they are explain'd to us and our duty from them inforced upon us in useful practical Sermons Our prayers I am satisfied are holy and good such that if it be not our own faults we may use them with much devotion The Holy Sacraments are here administred according to our Saviours own appointment so far as he hath exprest it And as to any Ceremonies or circumstances of Worship established by the prudence and authority of the Church I know nothing but what is very innocent and lawful very grave and decent agreeable to the solemnity of Divine Worship So that I am ready to say with St. Peter Lord whither shall we go since here we have the words of eternal life here we have the way to it plainly discovered and the means for attaining it plentifully afforded T. I am very glad to hear you discourse so honestly and judiciously and I pray God keep you ever in this good mind and grant that you and all other Christians may make a right use of all those means and advantages which are here afforded in order to their Salvation To which purpose before I dismiss you give me leave with all possible earnestness to beseech you not to satisfie your self with holding the true Religion and being of a true Church whose Doctrine and Worship is holy and good but see above all things that you your self be a truly religious and good man Else what shall it avail you to be a member of the best and purest Church in the world if you be an impure unholy person no true living member of Jesus Christ Though Loyalty to our Prince and Conformity to the Church are great duties yet these will not excuse our disobedience to any of Christs Laws who is the King of Kings and Head of the Church What though we are not Papists Hereticks or Schismaticks yet if we be wicked and loose livers we are in a worse condition than even Heathens and Infidels The inordinate love of money may damn a man as well as the worship of an Idol of Gold or Silver yea Covetousness is stiled Idolatry and so is voluptuousness too for the sensual man is said to make his belly his god To prefer the Creature before the Creator and the pleasures of sin before the joyes of Heaven may well be reckoned amongst the most vile and damnable errors and heresies He that lives in malice and envy that hates his brother and reviles oppresses or cheats him is a most factious and schismatical man for he makes a rent and schism in the body of Christ and is broken off from it by being destitute of that charity which is the bond of perfection by which fellow Christians are united one to another and all of them to Christ their Head Let it not suffice therefore that you live in an excellent Church where you have the Word Prayers and Sacraments according to Christs appointment but see that you diligently improve them for the promoting of good life this being the great end for which they were appointed Joyn constantly in the Prayers with great reverence and devotion and then live according to your Prayers and professions Firmly believe the Articles of your Creed and let your faith work by love Attend to the reading and preaching of Gods Word with care and seriousness and see that you be not an Hearer only but a Doer of the Word Often reflect upon your Baptismal Vow and be faithful to it in fighting against the world the flesh and the Devil most entirely devoting your self to the service of the blessed God and his Son Jesus in leading a godly righteous and sober life Frequently renew these Vows at the Holy Communion and there most thankfully commemorate the death of our blessed Saviour Who loved us and gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purifie to himself a peculiar people zealous of good works Let his love constrain you to obedience and let the remembrance of his Death and Resurrection mortifie all sin in you and quicken you to newness of life Let the terrors of the Lord perswade you to repentance and new obedience and let the hopes of eternal glory make you patient constant and chearful in well doing In a word see that you truly Fear God Honour and obey the King love your brethren and live in peace and charity with all men herein continually exercising your self to have a conscience void of offence toward God and man By such a truly religious and holy life you will adorn your profession bring honour to the Church gain upon its enemies or stop their mouths and even force them to acknowledg that God is in you of a truth that certainly this is a true Christian Church whose members are of such a truly Christian temper and behaviour By this means you will best be secured from all that lye in wait to deceive whether Papists or Separatists Your own in ward sense and relish of Divine things will assure you that true Religion consists not in bodily exercises how pompous costly and laborious soever Nor will you fansie the power of Godliness to be manifested by wrangling against such Forms and Ceremonies as are in themselves no hindrance to Spiritual Worship and Devotion but may be an help Yea by this means you will certainly obtain eternal happiness which can no other way be secured For being of the true Church will never save him that is not a true Christian which no wicked man is nor will right opinions make amends for bad manners Whereas he that heartily and honestly endeavours in all things to know and do the will of God shall either be preserved from error or from being much hurt by it For those mistakes which neither proceed from a vicious temper of mind nor lead to any evil practice in a mans life are not like to be very hurtful to himself or to others To conclude then Let your conversation in all respects be such as becomes the Gospel of Christ and be stedfast unmovable always abounding in the work of the Lord being assured that your labour shall not be in vain in the Lord. L. I do again and again return you most hearty thanks for all the good counsel you have given me and do sincerely resolve by Gods help to follow it for which purpose I beg the assistance of your prayers T. That I do faithfully promise you and do also desire yours that I my self may observe the directions I have given and not contradict them by an evil example And God grant that all those every where who take Christs name into their mouths may depart from all iniquity And may the Holy Spirit of Truth lead us all into and keep us in those ways of truth and peace and serious holiness which may bring honour to God and to our Religion and procure us true comfort here and eternal glory hereafter through the mercies of God in Jesus Christ to whose guidance I commit you and bid you heartily farewell L. God Almighty hear your Prayers bless your Instructions and plenteously reward you for all your kindness and pains and grant us an happy meeting in that blessed world above where we shall never part more Farewell Dear Sir FINIS