their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
neither denying auoyding defeating nor answering What if not one of these fathers whose works you cite as thick as hops euer spake or heard of your external and real sacrificing the sonne of God afresh for the sinnes of the worlde but they vsing the wordes Sacrifice and oblation to an other purpose you force a priuate and peculiar sense of yours vpon their speaches against their meanings Phi. This is euer your wont when the woordes bee so plaine that you can not deny them to flie to the meaning Theo. In deede this hath beene not the least of Satans sleights in conueying your Religion from steppe to step point by point to keepe the speach and chaunge the sense of the learned and auncient fathers that what with the phrases which were theirs and the forgeries which were not theirs and yet caried their names hee might make the way for Antichrist to set vp his visible Monarchie of error and hypocrisie Phi. This is the way to rid your selues of all obiections Theoph. And the other is the way to drowne your selues in the deapth of all corruption but so long as wee holde their fayth and doctrine which were the lights and lampes of Christes church we can spare you their phrases here and there skattered in their writings you no whit the neerer the trueth of their beliefe Phi. You hold not their fayth in this or any other point of your Religion Theo. The greatest boasters bee not alwaies the greatest conquerours Let it therefore first appeare what they teache touching the Sacrifice of the Lords table and what wee admit and then it will soone bee seene which of vs twaine hath departed from them The fathers with one consent call not your priuate Masse that they neuer knew but the Lordes Supper a Sacrifice which wee both willingly graunt and openly teach so their text not your gloze may preuayle For there besides the sacrifice of praier and thankesgiuing which we must then offer to God for our redemption other his graces bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne besides the dedication of our soules and bodies to be a reasonable quicke and holy sacrifice to serue and please him besides the contribution and almes then giuen in the primatiue Church for the reliefe of the poore and other good vses a Sacrifice no doubt very acceptable to God I say besides these three sundry sortes of offerings incident to the Lordes table the very Supper itselfe is a publike memorial of that great dreadful sacrifice I meane of the death bloodshedding of our sauiour and a most assured application of the merites of his passion for the remission of our sinnes not to the gazers on or standers by but to those that with faith and repentance come to the due receiuing of those mysteries The visible sacrifice of bread and wyne representing the Lords death S. Austen enforceth in these words Hold most firmly neither doubt of this in any case that the only begotten sonne of God taking our flesh offered himselfe a sweet smelling sacrifice to god to whom with the father the holy ghost the Patriarks Prophets Priests vnder the old law sacrificed brute beasts to whoÌ„ now in the time of the new Testament with the same father holy spirite the holy Catholike Church throughout the world doth not cease to ofâ—er the sacrifice of breade and wine in faith charitie In those carnal Sacrifices there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which he should offer bloud which he should shed for the remissioÌ„ of our sins In this sacrifice there is a thankesgiuing remembrance of the flesh which he hath offered and bloud which the same god hath shed for vs. With him agreeth Ireneus Christ willing his Disciples to offer vnto God the first fruites of his creatures not that god needed them but lest they should be found vnfruiteful or vnthankful toke the creature of bread and gaue thanks saying this is my body And likewise he confessed the cup which is a creature amongst vs to be his bloud teaching the new oblation of the new Testament which the Church receiuing from the Apostles offereth to God throughout the world We must theÌ„ offer to god in al things yeeld thanks to god the maker with a pure mind vnfaigned faith stedfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his Creatures and this oblation the Church only sacrificeth in purity to the creator offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing And this we offer to him not as if he stoode in neede of these presents but rendring him thanks for these his gifts and sanctifieng the creature This oblation of bread wyne for a thankesgiuing to God a memoriall of his sonnes death was so confessed vndoubted a trueth in the church of Christ till your Schoolemen beganne to wrest both Scriptures and Fathers to serue their quiddities that not onely the Liturgies vnder the names of Clemens Basil and Chrysostome do mention it We offer to thee our king and God this bread this cup according to thy sonnes institutioÌ„ tua ex tuis offerimus tibi domine we offer thee O Lord these thy gifts of thine own creatures Which sense Irineus vrgeth against valentine but also the very Missals vsed in your own Churches at this day do confirme the same These be the woordes of your own Offertorie Receiue holy Father God euerlasting this vndefiled host which I thine vnworthy seruant offer to thee my king and true God for my sinnes negligences and offences innumerable for al standers by yea for all faithful christians as wel liuing as departed this life that it may helpe me theÌ„ to attaine eternal life We offer to thee O Lord this cup of saluation intreating thy goodnes that it may be taken vp into thy sight as a sweet smell for the sauing of vs the whole world Receiue blessed Trinitie this oblatioÌ„ which we offer to thee in remeÌ„brance of the passion resurrection asceÌ„tion of Christ Iesus our Lord. We humbly beseech thee most merciful father through Iesus Christ thy son our Lord that thou accept blesse these gifts these preseÌ„ts these holy vndefiled sacrifices which we offer to thee first for thy Church holy and catholike c. For al true belieuers c. For al here present c. For the redemption of their soules and hope of saluation Certainely you speake these words long before you repeate Christs institution your Masse-booke doth apparently prooue that which I report if I mistake the secretes of your masse let the shame bee mine What then offer you in this place Christ or the creatures of bread wine By your own doctrine Christ is not present neither any change made til these wordes This is my body this is my blood be pronounced ergo before consecration the creatures of bread wyne keepe their
and eloquence hee seeketh to proue and perswade to the people of this Realme as the chiefest Bulwark of their Defence that were condemned he saith for religion we say for treason and in deed the very ground of all their actions I thought needefull to examine and to let the simple see on what a sandy slime they haue built as well their consciences as their Colleges and in how wretched and vnrighteous a quarell they haue hazarded their liues in this world and their soules in the next to inlarge the power and make vp the purse of their Rhemish founder Taking that therefore in hande I haue worde by worde refelled the fifth chapter of their Defence which purposely treateth of this matter and inserted so much of the fourth as tended to this ende the rest being a voluntarie pang of their vnbridled eloquencc as also I haue ripped vp the shamefull attemptes and tumults of Popes these last fiue hundred yeares for before that time Antichrist neither was nor durst be so bold presuming to displace depose their Lord Maister the Romane Emperor incountering him other Princes with treasons poysons battayles bloodsheds periuries treacheries such as Christendom neuer before tasted of euer since rued Where I haue not only opened the facts noted the meeknes of their martial spirits but haue vnfoulded the causes quarels for which those Princes were thus pursued with such excommunications and depriuations from Rome shewing as I go the Italian stories in fauour of their countrieman and foreman the Pope to bee exceeding partiall The like order I would haue followed in their Apologie but that as I first protested I found nothing in it worthy to bee refuted vnlesse I should haue banded their idle and emptie termes backe againe to them with others of the same making and so brought the cause of Christ and trueth of Religion to a warfare of woordes which I neither ought nor would If any man thinke me no indifferent iudge of their paines it may please him to cast his eye on the second sheete and hee shall find all the proofes and places of their Apologie aunswered in three leanes and of those fewe and weake quotations to haue made a conquest in open writing had beene incke and paper ill imployed I would therefore not take that course which seemed to me neither needeful nor profitable but to benefite the poore deceiued subiectes of this Realme and bring the Iesuites cause to the touch-stone in deede I haue chosen the principall intentes of their Apologie on which their whole foundation standeth and after mine owne course debated them more exactly and largely than the confutation of their Apology would haue suffered me For where they pretend they departed for lacke of the Catholike Sacrifice Sacramentes and Seruice which want in this Realme and because they were forced by oth to confesse an vnnaturall and impossible power in the Prince to be supreme Gouernour of all persons and causes as well ecclesiasticall as temporall and in their absence they resort for reliefe to none but to him that is the head of their catholike communion the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of their soules in earth and the vicar generall of Christ to whose predecessors all the famous Fathers called for aide comfort and counsell in their like distresses and traine vppe such as come vnto them in obedience to the churches Lawes Apostolike Traditions both written and vnwritten and to the precepts of Ancients Superiours who haue the promised spirit of trueth and are sent backe againe into this Land to execute spirituall offices and to absolue in foro conscientiae the penitent people from their sinnes of what sort soeuer schisme and heresie not excepted who seeth not that these assertions being the seueral braÌ„ches of their Apologie depend either on religion that is in strife betwixt vs or on the Princes power which they impugne or on the Popes claime to bee head of the church which we deny And therefore the proofe or disproofe of their particular actions must be fet and deriued from those chiefe and capitall springs The consideration whereof first induced mee to neglect the rouing discourses and vaunting florishes of their Apologie no lesse voide of trueth than of proofe and to betake my selfe to a stricter and directer kinde of examining the most materiall pointes on which the rest did hang as first their running to Rome siding themselues with the Pope as Christs Vicar generall against their Prince for which they haue no president in the primatiue Church The next is the princes power to commaund for trueth and right to beare the sword within her owne Realme ouer all persons for thinges and causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall without any subiection or relation to the Popes tribunall which I prooue is agreeable to the Lawes of God and practise of Christes church and therefore the oth importing the same to be good and godlie Thirdly the Popes censuring and depriuing princes of their crownes I shew to be nothing else but a wicked vnchristian pride contumelie not long since deuised by Antichrist to frustrate the word and ordinance of almighty God and to make himselfe great and so of force the subiects which be partakers with him in that hainous conspiracie by perswading assisting executing or defending the same in worde or deede against their princes to bee traytours and not martyrs if they die for that quarell Lastly the publique reformation of diuine Sacramentes and Seruice made by her Maiestie I declare to be Christian and Catholike and the partes of poperie repealed and abolished by the lawes of this Realme to be repugnant I speak for the substance of theÌ„ and not for certain indifferent ceremonies in them to the sacred scriptures and ancient fathers Other incident and adiacent matters I haue handled and those not a fewe as the generall and speciall contentes before and after will better insinuate but these foure bee the pointes that beare the burden both of their first Apologie for their Seminaries and last Defence of English Catholikes By these shal we soone discerne the truth or falshood of their pretences clamors against the Princes Lawes and such as are authorized by her highnesse therefore from the sober sad discussing hereof if they get them as they haue done to outragious and tragicall exclamations we must leaue them as men wilfully diuerting from the right way crying as loude as they can for life to drowne the voices of such as woulde recall them If they looke that all the parts of their Defence should haue bin answered in like sort as the fifth chapter is that labour I say for a man of my calling wold haue bin as fruitles as it is needles the proofs that are not here discussed may â—afely be despised the rest of their rolling rhetorik a diuine neither need regard nor should repeate As much as is inforcing to their purpose is here
for the studie of diuinitie is as deepely layed as theirs our diligence rather more than theirs our time both of age and studie more complete than theirs cōmonly can bee our order methode course of diuinitie much more profitable than theirs we haue moe disputations lessons conferences examinations repetitions instructions catechizings resolutions of cases both of conscience and controuersie methodes and manners to proceede to the conuersion of the deceiued and such like exercises in our two Colleges thā are in their two Vniuersities cōtayning neere hand 30. goodly Colleges As for the Masters professors of our Colleges specially the Romane readers we may be bold to say They be in all kind the most choyse and cunning men of Christendom for vertue learning c. Nowe for that part of education which pertayneth to Christian life manners our chiefe endeuour is in both the Colleges to breede in our scholers deuotion c. Which is done by diuers spirituall exercises as dayly examinations of their consciences often communicating or receiuing the. B. Sacrament much praying continuall hearing and meditation of holy things Phi. Can you in all this charge him with a lye Theo. Whether it bee true or false that he saith we neither care nor come to discusse The comparison of wits ages and exercises would rather beseeme boyes in the schoole than diuines in the Church this vaunting of vertue learning oftē communicating much praying continuall meditation of holy thinges is fitte for Pharisees vnfit for Christians Better is sayth Austen an humble confession in doing euill than a proud vaunt in doing well Phi. To speake truth is no vaunt Theo. To speake trueth in the commendation of your selues is the greatest pride you can shewe Let an other man prayse thee sayth Salomon and not thine owne mouth But this is the iust reward of your error that you take notable paynes to please your selues with an inward perswasion of your owne worthines to be reuerenced of others for the deepenes of your learning holines of your liues which desire of glorie so possesseth your heads that when other heraults fayle you you sticke not openly to the whole world to blaze your owne vertues Phi. We neuer spake but forced that in the necessarie defence of our selues Theo. Who forced Campion to write backe to Rome not only what admiration but what veneration a worde fitter for Saints than friers himselfe and his bande of Iesuites had gotten in England by their singular learning and holines The Priests saith hee of our societie they excelling in knowledge and sanctitie haue raysed so great an opinion of our order that the veneratiō which the Catholiques yeeld vs I thinke not good to be spokē but fearefully The framer of your Apologie what occasion had hee to braue both Uniuersities in such sort as he doth as well with the scholasticall as spiritual exercises of your two Colleges but only that he would haue the Iesuites waxe famous for the greatnes of their skill and purenes of their liues that the chiefest praise might redound to him selfe and others the Masters and Gouernours of those two Colleges Phi. We were charged in open proclamation that we liued contrary to the lawes of God and the Realme Theo. And doth your dayly disputing or much praying discharge you from that Phi. It sheweth our domesticall conuersation to be honest and orderly Theo. That is nothing to this purpose The Princes Edict did not meane your priuate disputatiōs or deuotions of which you cracke but obiected vnto you that you trayned vp your scholers in false and erroneous doctrine and vsed them to lewde and vngodly purposes as to withdrawe the people from their obedience to God and the Magistrate Phi. Let your Edict meane what it will our Apologie cleareth vs from all that was vntruely surmised against vs and I am right glad you haue seene the booke for there shall you find vs sufficiently proued to be both good subiects and good Catholiques notwithstanding your often and earnest inuectiues to the contrary Theo. If facing and cracking will doe the deede the conquest is yours Your defender hath fraighted his booke with so many solemne protestations patheticall exclamations and confident asseuerations but to the wiser sort that are led with euident trueth not with eloquent speach vnlesse you make some better demonstration of your integritie to God and your Prince than I yet see you bee like to goe neither for good subiects nor for good Catholiques Phi. Can you wish for a better than our Apologie Theo. I neuer mette with a worse Phi. What doth it lacke Theo. Not wordes they be copious curious enough but I neuer sawe fewer or weaker proofes Phi. What one poynt is there left vnproued Theo. Nay what one thing haue you iustly proued Phi. Come to the parts The first chapter giueth the reasons of our leauing this lande and liuing beyonde the seas what say you to those bee they not euident be they not sufficient Theo. Repeate them your selfe lest I chaunce to misse them Phi. The vniuersall Lacke of the Soueraigne sacrifice and Sacraments Catholiquely ministred without which the soule of man dyeth as the body doeth without corporall foode this constraint to the contrary seruices whereby men perish euerlastingly this intollerable othe repugnant to God the Church her Maiesties honour and all mens consciences and the dayly dangers disgraces vexations feares imprisonments empouerishments despites which they must suffer and the raylings and blasphemies against Gods Sacraments Saints Ministers and all holies which they are forced to heare in our Countrie are the onely causes why so many of vs are departed out of our naturall Countrey and doe absent our selues so long from that place where we had our being birth and bringing vp These they be what fault find you with them Theo. The selfe same that I finde with the rest of your Apologie You say what you list and neuer offer to proue that you say your bare word is your best argument and other authoritie than your owne you produce not Phi. The matter is so manifest that it needeth no proofe Theo. That presumption is so foolish that it needeth no refuter Phi. If you doubt or deny them wee bee readie to proue them Theo. That must you first doe before wee refell them Yet lest you should glorie too much of your paynted sheath the replie to your first chapter may shortly bee this The sacrifice which Christ offered on the crosse for the sinnes of the worlde wee beleeue with all our heartes and reuerence with all our might accounting the same to bee perfect without wanting eternall without renewing and this is our Soueraigne sacrifice The Lordes table which himselfe ordeined to bee the memoriall of his death and passion wee keepe and continue in that maner and forme that hee first prescribed and this may bee called and is a sacrifice both in respect of the thankes there giuen to God
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
against our Soueraigne you neither may nor doe refuse to bee commenders assisters perfourmers of his vngodlie purposes tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme and disturbance of her Maiesties Title State and wel-fare Which tyranous vsurpation in him and trayterous affection in you no Father that is Catholicke did euer allowe no Prince that is auncient did euer endure And as for your skattered and maymed examples which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning Phi. If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie yet I trust they proue that wee may sende or goe to Rome to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion and to bee relieued in times of affliction which is all wee require Theophil Counsell in cases of fayth and comforte in dayes of daunger bee no signes of authoritie but dewties of Charitie neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome but common to the whole Church of God and therefore if your examples reache no farther but that Princes haue beene sometimes aduised and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull Phi. What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore Theo. Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ which at that time when these godly men wrote and repayred to Rome was neither attempted by him nor mistrusted by them So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church or contempt to the state because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members not as presumptuous heades of the Church and liued as subiectes not as superiors to the Prince you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome but you must do violent wrong to them both to the Prince by renouÌ„cing your subiection breaking your oth and bearing armes against your liege Ladie when the Pope commaundeth to the Church in thinking teaching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes vpholder of all truth expounder of all Scriptures Confirmer of all Councelles dispenser with all lawes yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters that any waie touch or concerne Religion Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring are so far from allowing that we need no better witnesse to confute you with Phi. You doe but iest I dare saie Theo. Examine the particulars you shall finde them make cleane against you or at least nothing for you The Bishop of Rome you saie gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it afterward in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme from the which though some of you be lightly stept I trust in God the worst your holie Father can doe shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was infected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme as manie other places then were I finde it reported in the storie of Bede that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both or from either I finde it not yea rather certaine it is the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes chosen in a Synode by the generall liking to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error which also they did with great celeritie So that of those foure recoueries to the faith which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome the last is the present estate which we striue for the two next be false the first is only left that furthereth your conclusion but little Phi. Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened Theo. I will denie nothing that is true presume you no more than you proue and we shall soone growe to an ende Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe that him selfe and his people might be baptised and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue Phi. There was somewhat in it that Lucius sent so farre Theo. This Realme was then rude learning here skant religion newly sprong no where setled Coilus his father brought vp at Rome from a child and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire and no place neere home so famous well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome What maruaile then if Lucius so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will Phi. I say not so Theo. Then this example maketh litle for you which be sent hither not only without the Princes leaue but against her liking and Lawes to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her and to prepare them for a farther purpose Gregories fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse For Augustine and his felowes notwithstanding they were sent from Rome as you are and taught nothing but subiection and obedience to Princes which you doe not yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence They came not in disguised as you doe they lurked not in corners they traueled not by night they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince the Bishop of Rome that sent them neither stirred rebellion nor inuaded king Edelberts dominion And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene which they being straungers did not to an heathen king yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects and Gregorie sent others to tâ—â—e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
aduantage Theo. How loth you be to come to that which at length you must For say Philander might the Councell of Constance do that which they did or no You holde a Wolfe by the eares I can tell you Phi. The truth is I finde my selfe in some straite If I say they did well then I confesse that a Councell may lawfully resist and depriue the Pope for all this they did if I say they did euill then must the Councell of Constance be schismaticall in offering Christs Uicar so great and open wrong and the Church of Rome yea the Catholike Church that allowed and honored their actes and decrees fowly deceiued and Martin the Sixt whom this Councell elected and the Christian world obeied no lawfull successour but a violent intruder which God forbidde I shoulde affirme Theo. Then if you dare not say the Synode did euill you must yeelde they did wel and consequently the point which you first doubted is fully proued that a Councell may lawfully controle correct and depose the Pope notwithstanding you make him chiefe iudge on earth head of the whole Church Phi. Was Pope Iohn lawfully chosen Theo. You search euery angle but in truth you can not scape Phi. Platina saith some such thing Theo. So some would shift the matter but if his entrie to the Popedome were not good his summoning the Councell of Constance could not bee good and so this Synode neuer lawfully called Next the Councell did not reiect him as vnorderly chosen nor disclaime him for no Bishop but remoued him from the function which he had as vnworthy the same And their generall decree by which they define the Pope to be subiect to the Councel must not be referred to wrongfull inuadors but wholy restrained to lawfull possessors of the Romane See else no masterie for the Councell to bee superiour to those that were no Popes but onely vsurpers And therefore if there were any fault in his election since the Councell did omit the same in his depriuation and proceeded against him for other crimes it can do you small pleasure Phi. Did hee not submit himselfe to their definitiue sentence and with his owne mouth ratifie their actes whatsoeuer before they ventered to depose him Theo. When Pope Iohn sawe the Duke of Austria proscribed and adiudged by the Emperour to forfeit all his goodes and landes for helping and receiuing him in his flight and himselfe now brought backe and kept in prison to abide the determination of the Councell and foule matters obiected against him and witnesses produced and examined vpon the same being already suspended from his Popedom by the Councell then required to say for his defence what he coulde and warned against the next day to bee present in the Councell to heare the iudgement that should be giuen vpon the premisses what maruell if hee seeing no way to preuent that which the Synod would execute thought better to please them with a forced humilitie than to prouoke them to farther bitternesse with a bolde defiance But did the Councell ground themselues vpon that his submission or else did they deriue their authoritie from Christ without the Pope aboue the Pope Phi. I know they chalenged their power immediatly from Christ. Theo. By that you may see they ment to exclude the Popes consent allowance which also well appeared by their doings For they cited suspended conuicted imprisoned assigned him a tearme to receiue iudgement before euer he came to that submission And last of all if you could light on it there is a great difference betweene confessing the proces referring himselfe to the discretion of the Councell which Pope Iohn did at length much against his stomake authorizing the Iudges to proceede which they neither did aske nor would accept at his handes And least you should thinke I mistake the Councel of Constance the Councel of Basil which began 14. yeares after doth not only confirme that which I defend but also repute you for heretikes that egerly withstand it Their words be these Veritas de potestate Concilij generalis supra Papam declarata per Constantinēse hoc Basiliense Concilia generalia est veritas fidei Catholicae veritas haec Papa generale Concilium actu legitimè congregatum sine eius cōsensu nullatenus potest autoritatiue dissoluere aut ad aliud tempus prorogare aut de loco ad locum transferre veritas est fidei Catholicae Veritatibus duabus praedictis pertinaciter repugnās est cēsendus haereticus This position that a general councell hath power ouer aboue the Pope declared in the generall councell of Constance Basill is a truth of the catholike faith Againe that the Pope by no means can dissolue defer or translate a generall councell lawfully called once sitting of his own authoritie without the consent of the said councell this is likewise a truth of the catholike faith These two former truthes he that stifly denieth must be taken for an heretike Now choose whether you will forgo your assertion or else abide the verdict of your own Councell Phi. Against the Councel of Basill much might be saide if time and place did serue Theo. Time and place do serue except you relent by their illation to conclude you an heretike Phi. That Councell was neither generall nor lawfull Theo. It is not enough for you to say the worde you must tell vs why Phi. They bent themselues against Eugenius the fourth and did what they could to thrust him from his Seate Theo. Perhaps Eugenius deserued no lesse Phi. No they did it vpon a faction in fauour of the Duke of Millan that hated Eugenius Theo. Contention is no iust exception against a Synode For so you may refuse the best that euer were But what can you say why the Councell of Basill shoulde not be counted in your Church both lawfull and generall Was it not orderly summoned as your manner is Were not all nations called The Bull of Martin the fift is extant by the which the Councell was first indicted and Eugenius himselfe that struggled a while to dissolue the Councell was glad at length to chaunge his tune and to retract all that hee had done in derogation of the Synode and with an other Bull fairely subscribed with the Cardinalles handes to confirme and confesse the Councell of Basill to bee a generall sacred and lawfull Councell And here you shall see a plaine president that the Princes and Bishops assembled at Basill not onely resisted Eugenius labouring what hee could to disperse them but also forced him to yeeld and acknowledge the lawfulnesse of their Synode Eugenius saith Platina much distressed first with warres on euery side next for that he saw the councell of Basill began by Pope Martins decree daily increase the Princes of Spaine Fraunce Germanie and Pannonie repairing thither and referring the common cause of christendom to the iudgement of the councell meaning to shut
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
better and acknowledge your error Phi. When you proue that we may do this which will neuer be Theo. Marke first what we reath and next what we proue that you be not deceaued Wee teach that God in deliuering the sworde to Princes hath giuen them this direct charge to prouide that as well true religion be maintayned in their Realmes as ciuil iustice ministred and hath to this end allowed Princes ful power to forbid preuent and punish in all their subiects be they laymen Clercks or Bishops not only murders thefts adulteries periuries and such like breaches of the seconde table but also schismes heresies Idolatries and all other offences against the first table pertayning onely to the seruice of God and matters of religion Wee doe not imagine this of our owne heades we find it annexed to the crowne by God himself who when he first gaue the children of Israel leaue to choose them a king withall appointed that the Law truely copied out of the Leuites original which was kept in the tabernacle should be deliuered the king sitting on his royal seate with this charge That booke shall remaine with the king he shall reade in it all the dayes of his life that he may learne to feare the Lord his God obserue all the wordes of the law there written and these statutes to do them This was not doone till he was placed in his throne so sayth the text therefore this touched not the kings priuate conuersation as a man but his Princely function as a magistrate which will you nill you stood in cōmaūding others not in guiding his own person For no man is a king in respect of himself but in ruling his subiects As a man he serued God one way sayth Austen as a king an other way As a mā by faythful lyuing as a king in setting forth lawes to cōmaund that which is good and remoue the contrarie So that kings as kings serue God in doing that for his seruice which none but kings can do Then if the whole Law were cōmitted to the king as a king at his coronation that is to cōmaund it others which none but kings could doe within their Realmes ergo the publishing preseruing and executing of the first table touching the sincere worship of God was the chiefest part of the Princes charge To make my cōclusion the stronger let vs see what the godly kings of Israell Iudah did in matters of religiō hauing no farther nor other cōmission frō God than this which I last repeated The diligēt executiō of their office wil serue for an euidēt expositiō what God required at their hānds We cā look for no plainer declaratiō of Gods meaning in this point thā Gods own cōmendatiō of their acts in this case The lawmaker is the best interpreter if they by their princly power remoued idols razed hilalters slue false prophets purged the land frō al abominations not sparing the brasen serpent made by Moses whē they saw it abused if again by the same power they caused the tēple to be clensed the law to be read the couenant to be renued with God the passouer to be kept the Leuits to minister in their courses inuēted by Dauid if to conclude the prince deposed the chiefe bishop placing a fitter in his steed forced al prophets priests people that were found in Israel sincerely to serue the Lord their God if I say they did al this as the scripture beareth record they did their zealous proceedings in these cases were liked accepted praised by Gods own mouth who besides Iesuits is either so blind that he seeth not or so froward that he confesseth not that princes were charged by God himselfe to plant establish his true seruice in their dominions with their Princely power to prohibite punish all offences abuses be they temporal or spiritual against the second or first part of this heauenly law Phi. This charge concerned none but the kings of Israell Iudah The. That refuge doth rather manifest your folly thā satisfie my reason did I pray you Sir the cōming of Christ abolish the vocatiō of princes I tro not Thē their office remaining as before per cōsequent both the same precept of God to them stil dureth also the like power to force their subiects to serue God Christ his son standeth in as ful strēgth vnder the gospel as euer it did vnder the law For princes in the new testamēt be Gods ministers to reuēge malefactors as they were in the old the greater the wickednes y◠rather to be punished ergo the greatest as heresies idolatries blasphemies are sonest of al other vices to be repressed by christiā magistrates whose zeal for Christs glory must not decrease Christs care for their scepters being increased and those monuments of former kinges left written for their instructiō Were not this sufficient as in truth it is to refute your euasion yet king Dauid forseeing in spirit the heathē kings would bād thēselues assemble togither against the Lord his Christ extēdeth the same charge to the gētiles which the kings of Iurie receiued before warneth thē al at once Be wife ye kings vnderstād ye iudges of the world serue the Lord. Upon which words S. Aug. inferreth thus Al men ought to serue God in one sort by cōmon cōdition as mē in an other sort by seueral gifts offices by the which som do this some that No priuat person could cōmand idols to be banished clean frō among men which was so long before prophesied Therfore kings besides their duty to serue God common with al other men haue in that they be kings how to serue the Lord in such sort as none can do which are not kings For in this kings in respect they be kings serue the Lord as God by Dauid enioyneth them if in their kingdoms they cōmand that which is good prohibite that which is il not in ciuile affaires only but in matters also concerning diuine religion With this indeuor of christian princes God cōforteth his church by the mouth of Esay Thou shalt suck the brests of princes kings shal be thy foster fathers and Queenes thy nurcing mothers What Esay saith princes shal do that I cōclude princes must do because God would not promise they should vsurp an other mās office but discharge their own Thē if you frō Rhemes or your brethrē frō Rome tel vs y◠the nurcing of christs church is no part of the princes duty we detest your insolēt negatiue God is truth who saith it you be liars If you take the milke of princes for tēporal honors lāds goods which your church in deed hath greedily swallowed the very children wil laugh you to skorne The church of Christ is no wāton she lusteth for no worldly wealth which is rather hurtful poison than holsom food Gods prouision for hir is spiritual
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
Upon whose cōplaint the good prince wrote this to the whole councel Your synod hath decreed I know not what in a tumult vprore whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder for hatred against your fellow bishops but the diuine prouidēce wil I doubt not scatter the mischief of your contentiō make it plain in our sight whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your doings for so doth it seem good expedient to me to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you that as many of you as were present at the councel of Tyrus without delay repair to the place of our abode there to giue accompt how sincerely soundly you haue iudged and that before me whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God in these cases The prince summoned the coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle gaue charge to the parties accused to come before thē sharply rebuked the bishops assembled in this synod cōmāded thē to come corā nobis rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt assured thē that he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē church-matters not as a violēt vsurper but as gods minister ordained to y◠intēt which the catholik bishops that took part with Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal the rest y◠deposed him neither did nor durst deny So the Const. was both an orderly refuge for Athan. a lawful cōtroler of the coūcel of Tyrus notwtstāding the crimes obiected there to Macarius Atha were spiritual to wit the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table dashing in peeces the mystical cup burning the sacred books vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery with many such hainous offences leudly deuised by their accusers not any way proued against them yet taken by their aduersaries then iudges for iust matter to condemne them In restoring Arius the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by the crafty dissembling of heretikes yet thereby may well appeare what authority this Prince claimed to command Bishops release the rigor of their ecclesiastical cēsures Thus stood the case The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him If Arius saith he consent to the Nicene coūcel I wil admit him to my sight send him home with honor Arius his adherents accepting the cōdition were willed to put their faith in writing with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them aduertising his Maiesty by writing the heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate Constantine tooke this exception in such il part that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short sharp terms Knowing our pleasure WE CHARGE YOV that you suffer freely those that will to returne to the church For if I learn that you forbid or exclude such as would gladly be partakers of the church I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV This saith Socrates he wrote minding to profit the church end al dissētion but it fel out otherwise for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius lack of Athanasius then banished that Cōstantine doubting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith which he did there in presence very readily but slily The Prince musing at it exacted an oth that he took likewise Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther COMMANDED ALEXANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM the next day TO THE COMMVNION which God preuēted with a suddain shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended periury then freshly cōmitted Now chose whether you wil affirm that Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous imperious in the church of Christ against al reason good order or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions othes of such as they suspected in religion to restore those that were deposed to their ancient places vpon their submission and command the chiefe Bishops for so were both these the first of Alexandria the second of Constantinople to receiue such as had purged themselues in the Princes iudgement and presence to the communion Phi. Uengeāce frō heauen decided the case with Athanasius against Arius Th. No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling than he did before with his open rebelling but what is this to Constantine whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bettered We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God iugling with man we detest that mōster as much as you but we lay forth the steps of Cōstātine seeking hoping his reformatiō to the end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith baptisme Churches and bishops but also touching heretiks Apostataes Iewes and Infidels In his Authentikes he maketh many new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS in what places by what persons with what lowdnes of voice they shal be ministred OF SYNODS when they shall be kept what things shal be reformed in them according to the sacred Canons and his Princely lawes also what Canons of Councels shall stand in the same strength with his Lawes OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES guiding the maner of their erection the number of their Clerkes their expences suites and priuileges OF MONKS who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall what rules they shall keepe for praier diet rest and such like dueties of life to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall belong OF PRIESTS DEACONS AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church limiting their age condition learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge their diligēt sober and chast behauiour afterward OF BISHOPS howe they shall bee chosen in what sort their soundnes in faith skill in common prayer and clearnes from all iust accusations prohibited by the sacred rules or lawes imperiall shal be throughly sifted before they may bee confirmed what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories what superior iudges they themselues shall haue from whom they shal not appeale what punishment they shall
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
your holy father hath taught kings Emperours to waite on his trencher to hold his stirrop and kisse his feete Phi. We would haue Princes to serue that is to obey the church so S. Paul willeth them Obey your rulers be subiect to them for they watch as being to giue accōpt for your souls This is spoken as well to Princes as to priuate men Theo. You leape from one thing to an other neuer resolue certainly any thing Can you shew where S. Paul or Esaie or any other Prophet or Apostle teacheth Princes to be the Popes Bedels Bailifs to execute his pleasure The questiō betwixt vs is not whether princes as wel as others must be guided directed by religious godly Pastours the way to eternall life which is S. Pauls meaning in this place but whether the Pope cloathing himselfe with the name of the church may command the swords of Princes if he like not their doings take their kingdoms frō thē Do the places which you bring proue this that I mention say yea or no. Phi. Not expressely but only because the Pope is Christs Uicar on earth head of the church Theo. Will you neuer vnderstand how weake your proofes how wide they be from your intention First you stil presume we stil deny that your holy father is the head of the church and Christs Uicar general vpon the face of the earth On that false foūdatiō what God promiseth to the church in respect of her head which is Christ you closely conuey to the Bishop of Rome as heire apparant to that honor and excellency which Christ hath in his church a friuolous but a blasphemous imagination Next what submission obedience God requireth at al mens euen at Princes hands for the reuerencing of his word obseruing of his law that you wittingly confound with the temporall iurisdiction dominion that the church of Rome claimeth ouer Princes to command their scepters if they resist to depose their persons which is a wicked wilfull error If you loue truth deale plainly let this cunning go Phi. I seeke for truth let truth preuaile Theo. Would God you were so minded Phi. I am Theo. That shall wee see by your proceeding Phi. What say you by the wordes of S. Paul Obey your rulers Theo I say the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth leaders as well as rulers in this place standeth rather for leaders than rulers because S. Paul in this very chap. vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remember your leaders addeth Beholding the end of their conuersation imitate their faith that is followe their steppes If wee must marke them and imitate them then surely must they be leaders to direct vs and not rulers to master vs. Secondly by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it be leaders or rulers are ment not the Pope and his Cardinals but all that be christian and godly Preachers this is S. Pauls own construction Remember your leaders which haue spoken to you the word of God We be not bound to their fansies or pleasures but only to the word of truth proceeding from their mouthes Lastly obedience here required is no corporal subiection to their persons but an inward liking and imbracing of their doctrine For as touching their persons whom it pleaseth you to call rulers in this place S. Paul maketh seruāts in other places We preach not our selues saith he but Christ Iesus to be the Lord our selues your seruants And againe Not that we haue dominion or rule ouer your faith but wee are helpers of your ioy And that was our Sauiours charge to them al. Kings of nations rule with you it shal not be so but whosoeuer wil be chiefe among you shal be the seruant of all Their function is as you see TO SERVE not to rule their brethren I meane to feede not to master the flock of Christ. Phi. The Apostle saith God hath placed thē To rule the Church Attend to your self to your whole flock ouer which the holy Ghost hath put you to rule the church Theo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not To rule the church but to feed the church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be no rulers but Sheepheards Are you not very desirous of rule when you thus wrest the Scriptures to make your selues rulers Phi. S. Hieroms translation hath Regere ecclesiam to rule the church That we follow The. You follow the old corrupt translatiō where it maketh for you and where you list you leaue it S. Hierom vpon the first chapter to Tite saith In quo posuit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos pascere ecclesiam Dei not regere And yet regere is to lead guide with counsel as wel as to rule or force with authoritie as you may perceiue by dirigere the compound which is to direct any man what way he shal go what things he shal do what words he shal speake yet these be no rulers nor haue any iudiciall power ouer the parties so directed The english word that you abuse hath the same sense In many matters men are ruled by their friends in sicknes they are ruled by their Physition in traueling they bee ruled by their guides and yet neither friends Physitions nor guides haue any iurisdiction ouer the persons that are ruled by them Why then do you trouble the world with such ambiguities perplexities of words why speake you not distinctly why conclude you not directly The Bishops of Ephesus were set by the holy Ghost to attend their flock feede the church If by this you collect that they were placed by God to teach instruct the faithful how to walke in his waies that we graunt that we know to be most true so long as they do their message from God sincerely without adding altering or diminishing but if by colour of those wordes to rule the church you seeke to giue the Pope iudiciall power to compell and punish Princes as a Superiour iudge which is the point we striue for see what shamefull violence you offerre the Scriptures First you falsifie the Text by putting ruling for feeding the church Next you dawe the word ruling from instructing and exhorting which is Apostolike to commaunding and forcing which our Sauiour forbiddeth all his Disciples thirdly that which was spoken to the Elders of Ephesus and is common to all Pastours you present the Bishop of Rome with as his peculiar charge though hee neither feede nor leade the flocke And so where S. Paul ment the Bishops of Ephesus were set to teach and instruct their brethren you conclude the Pope must ouer-rule Princes and take their crownes from them if they yeelde not the sooner Phi. You mistake me I do not bring these places to that end Theo. To that end you should bring them for that is the doubt betwixt vs that was my demaund I required you to shewe Scripture
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
els you make a madde construction But if you meane that Princes should not rule Bishops in ecclesiastical causes iudgements that is not worke them nor force them against the witnes of their heartes and consciences to follow the willes and appetites of Princes as Constantius did by the report of Athanasius in this place then the wordes which you bring be very true but nothing pertinent to this question The ruling then of Bishoppes and sitting as president of ecclesiasticall iudgements which Constantius vsed and Athanasius reproued was nothing elss but a wilfull contempt in himselfe of the faith and Canons of the Church and a furious compulsion of others to make them determine what hee listed and condemne whom him pleased without respect of trueth and against all order of common iustice Phi. This is your gloze which wee doe not beleeue Theo. Your owne witnesses say the same whom you may not well discredite Phi. Which of them Theo. Athanasius and Hilarie Phi. Where say they so Theo. Not farre from the places which your selfe alleage The whole Epistle of Athanasius which you quote is a large repetition of yâ— tirannous words and deedes of Constantius touching causes ecclesiasticall The first booke of Hilarie against Constantius the first I meane as they nowe stande in order though the last in time as they were written doeth handle the same argument Reade either of them you can not choose amisse Let passe the horrible persecution raysed by Constantius wherein the Pagans were set to inuade the Churches of Christians and to beate the people with staues and stones the Bishops Priests and Monkes were bound with chaynes and scourged with roddes the women were haled by the hayre to the iudgement seate the virgins were tosted by the fire and whipped with Prickles others were banished strangled trampled to death vnder feete and their limmes and ioyntes euen torne and rent asunder after they were dead in so much that Athanasius is fayne to crie out who was not amazed at these things who would giue them the name of Ethnicks much lesse of christians who will thinke them to haue the conditions of men and not rather of beastes who perceiued not the Arrians to bee crueller than beasts The straungers standing by yea the Ethnicks detested the Arians as Antichristes and butchers of men O new found heresie which in villanies and impieties hast put on the fulnes of the Diuell howe great so euer hee bee let passe I say these thinges and come to his behauiour in matters and causes ecclesiasticall Paulinus Lucifer and other Bishoppes being called before him the Emperour commaunded them to subscribe against Athanasius and to communicate with the Arrians they marueiling at this strange endeuor answering that the ecclesiastical Canons would not suffer them so to doe hee straightway replied AT QVOD EGO VOLO PRO CANONE SIT ita me loquentem Syriae episcopi sustinent aut ergo obteÌ„perate aut vos quoque exules esrote LET MY WIL BE TAKEN OF YOV FOR A CANON the Bishoppes of Syria content themselues with this speach of mine Therefore doe as I will you or depart into banishment And when the Bishoppes held vp their hands to God and with great libertie proposed their reasons shewing him that the kingdome was not his but Gods of whom he receiued it and that it was to bee feared lest hee that gaue it would speedyly take it from him also setting before him the day of iudgement and aduising him not to subuert ecclesiasticall order nor to mingle the Romane Empire with the constitutions of the Church nor to bring the Arrian heresie into the Church of God he woulde neither heare them nor permit them to speake but greeuously bending his browes for that they had spoken and shaking his sword willed them to be caried away This was Constantius manner in conuenting Bishoppes and thus hee peruerted the fayth and good order of Christes Church vppon a selfe wil subiecting all Lawes both diuine and humane to his eger and erroneous fansie And who seeing him thus to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes president of ecclesiasticall iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that desolation of abomination foretold by Daniel Phi. You put thus to the text which Athanasius hath not Theo. But the right meaning of Athanasius woordes must bee gathered hy that which goeth before and followeth after Intelligentia dictorum sayth Hilarie ex praecedentibus consequentibus expectetur The vnderstanding of any speach must bee taken from the precedents and consequents The conclusion is not proued but by the premisses and therefore must bee measured by the premisses Athanasius bringeth many particulars to shewe in what sort Constantius ouer-ruled the Bishoppes and preferred his owne will before all constitutions and Canons of the Church and then inferreth Who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes and president of ecclesiasticall iudgements in that â—ort as hee doeth would not pronounce him to be Antichrist Now in what sort he did it the whole Epistle besides doeth declare thither must you repaire if you will see howe Constantius behaued himselfe in ecclesiasticall causes and consequently what thinges Athanasius and the rest misliked in him Phi. Howe did Constantius behaue himselfe say you Theo. That is worth the searching By that you shal see what cause Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius had to reproue him Phi. Say no more than you iustly proue Theo. No more shall bee sayde than your owne witnesses report I hope you will take them for direct and true deponents Phi. I doe not mistrust them Theo. Then heare them There were fiue principall points wherein Constantius dealt very intemperately wickedly as the writings of Athanasius and Hilarie doe testifie The often altering of the fayth the wresting from Synodes what hee would the banishing of Bishoppes vpon false accusations the intruding of others in their places against all order and the forcing of all sorts to communicate with the Arrians Of his altering the fayth Hilarie thus complayneth Fayth is come nowe to depend rather on the tyme than on the Gospel Our state is dangerous miserable that we haue nowe as many fayths as wils and as many doctrines as manners whiles faiths are either so written as we list or so vnderstood as we will We make euery yere and euery moneth a faith and still wee seeke a fayth as if there were no faith This O Constantius would I fayne knowe of thee what fayth at length thou beleeuest Thou hast changed so often that now I knowe not thy fayth That is hapned vnto thee which is wont to follow vnskilfull buylders euer disliking their own doings that thou stil pullest downe that which thou art stil setting vp Thou subuertest the olde with newe and the newe thou rentest in sunder with a newer correction and that which was once corrected thou condemnest with a second correction O thou wicked one what a mockerie doest
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
Then I graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion Theo. You graunt it as an euident trueth confirmed by the Scriptures confessed by the fathers reported by the Stories of the Church and infinitly repeated in the lawes and edicts of religious and auncient Emperours made for persons and causes ecclesiasticall Or if you doubt any part of this diuision haue recourse to the textes places before produced and if euery part be not fully proued refuse the whole Phi. I see they did and therefore I resolue my selfe they might commaund in those cases Theo. As well Bishops as others Phi. God forbid Princes should commaund Bishops in matters of religion Haue you forgotten what Osius saide to Constantius Do not commaund vs in this kinde Theo. Osius and others were commaunded by Constantius to condemn Athanasius against all order of equitie and their certaine knowledge of his innocencie For Osius was present and president in the Councell of Sardica where the cause of Athanasius was fully debated by the consent of both Emperours East and West and his accusers proued to bee wicked slaunderers and in that case he might iustly say to Constantius Commaund vs not in this kind or in these things but learne the trueth of them rather at our hands that were by when these matters were narowly sifted and Athanasius clearly discharged from all that could be saide against him And what if Osius had not limited his wordes to these particular respects as in sight he doth shall one poore place thinke you beare downe al the proofes examples and authorities that I haue shewed you to the contrarie where religious and auncient Emperours appointed prescribed commanded Bishops yea the chiefest Bishops in matters of doctrine and discipline Constantine prescribed the bishops what was profitable for the Church and commaunded the Councel of Tyrus to discusse the crimes obiected to Athanasius and threatned to banish him if hee failed to present himselfe before the Synode to teach him what it was to withstand the precept of the chiefe ruler defending the trueth And vpon complaint made by Athanasius against them hee sent for the whole Councell with this commaundement You must all of you resort hither to shewe the reason of your doings and to giue accompt howe sincerely and soundly you haue iudged and that before mee whom you shall not denie to bee Gods syncere minister and when Arius should be restored this was the stile that he vsed to Athanasius knowing our pleasure We charge you to suffer such as will to returne to the Church and after commaunded Alexander Bishoppe of Constantinople to receiue Arius to the communion Valentinian the elder rehearsing the Nicene fayth in his Edict added Our power hath commaunded the same to bee preached And when the people of Millan cried to haue Ambrose for their Bishop though hee were not yet baptized the same prince commanded he should be presently baptized and consecrated notwithstanding the Canons were strong against it S. Paul seemeth not willing that a nouice should be a Bishoppe Gratian commanded the Arrian Bishoppes to bee thrust from their Churches and by vigor of his Princely Lawes depriued the Bishoppe that rebaptized of his Priestly function Theodosius the elder commanded the followers of his Edict Bishops and others to be counted Christian Catholikes and for the rest that beleeued otherwise he sayd Propelli iubemus wee commaunded them to bee driuen from their Churches and when Demophilus a Bishoppe refused to embrace the Nicene fayth the Emperour in his owne person replied then I commaunde thee to forgoe thy Churches It well be seemed a religious Prince sayth Gregorie to commaunde Bishoppes in such things And Charles appointing the Bishoppes what doctrine they should teach sayth This we charge and enioyne you the more precisely because we know that false teachers shall come in the later dayes And for the reformation of certaine abuses in the Church hee keepeth this tenor of speach Know ye sacred fathers this must be forbidden in your Diocesses The rest of the Lawes Edicts and precepts of Godly Princes for causes ecclesiastical which I before alleaged in no small number doe they not either comprehend al men and by consequent Bishoppes or else directly and expressely commaunded Bishoppes by name If those bee not sufficient you may shall haue more Theodosius the younger sent his letters to the Patriarke of Alexandria for the seconde Councel of Ephesus with these wordes Wee decree that the most holy Bishoppes meeting together this vayne doubt may bee discussed and the true Catholike fayth confirmed Therefore Your holines bringing with you tenne of the most reuerend Metropolitanes that bee within your prouince and tenne other holy Bishoppes well accompted of for their learning and conuersation shall hasten with all speede to meete the rest at Ephesus by the first of August next no Bishoppe besides the foresaide troubling the sacred Synode If any Bishoppe faile to come to the place prefixed at the time appointed hee shall haue no excuse neither with GOD nor with vs. As for Bishoppe Theodorete whom wee commaund to attend at home on his owne Church wee determine that hee shall bee none of your assemblie vnlesse the whole councell thinke good to haue him one But if any dissent We commaund that the Synode sit without him and dispatch those thinges which we haue appointed them And in his second letters to the same Bishoppe Because wee suspect that some of Nestorius fauourers will doe their best to be present at this Councell therefore wee thinke needefull to aduertise you and the whole Synode that not onely in respect of Theodorete but of all others which haue ought to do in your Councell we giue you the preeminence and chiefe authoritie And those that adde or diminish any thing to or from the Nicene fathers the fathers since that assembled at Ephesus Wee suffer them not to presume any thing in this sacred Synode but wil haue them subiected to your iudgement because wee haue appointed this Synode for that purpose In the very same councell hee likewise commaunded that those Bishoppes which not long before sate in iudgement vppon Eutiches should be present but silent and giue no voyces with the rest as iudges but expect the cōmon determination of all the rest of the sacred fathers And also commaunded that they should neither say neither do any thing in the sacred Councel vntill the right fayth were concluded Martian charged the 630. Bishops in the great Councell of Chalcedon that None of them should dare dispute of the natiuitie of our Lord and Sauiour Christ otherwise than the 318. fathers of Nice deliuered Eusebius Bishoppe of Dorilaeum at the same time put vp a supplication to Martian Valentinian the third against Dioscorus Patriarke of Alexandria with these wordes In most humble wise we beseech
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
Upon one of these twayne if you reason against vs must your absurdities bee grounded The first you can not impugne but you must therewith impugne the Scriptures the best and most famous Princes of Christendome the Church of God it selfe which for eight hundred yeeres and vpwarde embraced and obeyed the Lawes and Edicts of religious Princes commaunding for truth And if you thinke you may say and vnsay with a breath and refell that now as absurd which I before proued and you yeelded to bee sounde and good doctrine take either of our positions rightly vnderstoode for your antecedent and marke howe ioyntlesse and senselesse the sequeles bee that you set downe for ineuitable consequents When Princes commaunde for trueth it is euident they commaund the selfe same thing that God commaundeth or rather as S. Augustine plainly declareth God himselfe commaundeth by their heartes that are in his handes the thinges which no man shoulde refuse Emperours saith hee commaund the selfe same thing that Christ commaundeth for when they commaund that which is good it is Christ and no man els that commandeth by them Againe Marke sayth hee with howe manifest trueth God himselfe speaketh by the Princes heart which is in his hande euen in this lawe which you complaine to bee made against you And therefore hee concludeth when Princes commaund for trueth Whosoeuer neglecteth their commaundement shall haue no part with God for not doing that which TRVETH BY THE KINGS HEART COMMAVNDED HIM TO DOE If you build your absurdities vpon the first part of our doctrine then must you thus conclude When God commandeth by the Princes heart that which is good in matters of religion The bodie is aboue the soule the sheepe aboue the Pastor the subiect is iudge of the Iudges yea of God himselfe and consequently Neither Christ neither any of his Apostles could enter to conuert Countries preach and exercise iurisdiction spirituall without Caesars licence and delegation Well your Rhetorike may beguile fooles sure your Logike will neuer enforce wise men to regard your conclusions Phi. Wee make no such arguments Theo. You must make these or worse The first part of our assertion is that Princes bee Gods seruants and ministers appointed to beare the sword with full commission to command what God commandeth and to prohibite what God prohibiteth as well in matters pertayning to religion as Ciuill iustice You inferre vpon vs that wee make The body aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdome aboue Christes body mysticall the sheepe aboue the Pastor the subiect to bee iudge of the Iudges yea of God himselfe with many like childish and friuolous consequents Let your owne fauourers bee iudges in this case whether we be absurd in affirming that we doe or you more absurd in refelling vs as you doe If it be no absurditie with you for princes to command that which the Pope appointeth them as your selues defend that is your opinion what inconuenience can it bee for Princes to commaunde that which Christ the Soueraigne Lorde and head of the Church commaundeth which is all the power that wee giue to Princes notwithstanding your fayned and false reports in this slaunderous libell of yours to the contrarie Phi. Wee neuer denyed but Princes might commaund that which God commaundeth and in so doing they be rather to be commended for their pietie than to be charged with any absurditie Theo. And wee neuer affirmed that Princes might commaund that which God forbiddeth or prohibite that which God commandeth And therefore you must seeke out some others whome you may persue with your absurdities they touch no part of our doctrine Phi. They shewe what an absurd thing it is for temporall Princes to chalenge supreme power ouer Christes Church in causes of religion Theo. If you take the word supreme as it euer was and is defended by vs to make Princes free from the wrongfull and vsurped iurisdiction which the Pope claimeth ouer them your illations haue as litle strength and trueth as the former for what fond and vntoward reasons bee these If the Pope may not depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience ergo we giue Power to the Queene to prescribe to the Preachers what to preach which way to worshippe and serue God howe and in what forme to minister the Sacraments to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which way shee will bee gouerned in soule ergo wee make her free from ecclesiasticall discipline wee derogate from Christes Priesthoode and open the gap to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders ergo there can bee no iurisdiction ouer English mens soules but proceeding and depending of her wee keepe the Realme from obedience to generall Councels and take away all meanes of reducing the Realme and Prince when they bee in error to the trueth againe with many such loose and vnsauory sequences Phi. If the Prince be supreme she may doe what she list in all matters of religion and Ecclesiasticall regiment and so these absurdities follow very directly vpon that assertion of yours Theo. That Princes may do what they list in matters of religion and the regiment of the Church is neither coherent nor consequent to our opinion but a wicked and wylie pretence of yours to cause men that can not so wel discerne of your sophismes to distrust our doctrine as false and absurde and in the meane time to conuey your selues awaie as it were in a mist vnespied And as for the wordes supreme gouernour which you wring and wrest to that purpose take the true construction of them as the oth importeth and we professe them and infer duly but one of your absurdities vpon them we yeeld you the rest Phi. What not one Theo. No not one descend to the specialties when you will Phi. It giueth power to the Queene to conferre that to others which she neither hath nor can haue nor doe her selfe as to the Priestes and Bishops to preach minister the Sacramentes haue cure of soules and such like Theo. It giueth no such power to the Queene as you speake of Bishoppes haue their authoritie to preach and minister the Sacramentes not from the Prince but from Christ himselfe Goe teach all nations baptising them so forth onely the Prince giueth them publike libertie without let or disturbance to do that which Christ commaundeth If you see no difference between the commission which Christ giueth vnto Bishops and the permission whereby Princes suffer and incite them with peace and praise to doe their duties your learning is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it is For what a foolish collection is this The Prince permitteth those that are sent of Christ to preach and administer the Sacramentes ergo the Prince conferreth that power or function to them You might as well conclude The Prince permitteth men to liue
breath ergo the Prince conferreth life and breath to thē Or the Prince permitteth her Subiectes to beleeue in God and relieue ech others ergo the Prince conferreth faith and charitie to them Phi. It giueth her to do that which is more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or lawes authorised onely by her selfe which waie to worship and serue God how and in what forme to minister the Sacramentes to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which waie she will be gouerned in soule Theo. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what seruice of God they please what forme of administring the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought nor point of our doctrine And yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the christian faith to be preached the right seruice of God in spirit and truth to be vsed the Sacraments to be ministred according to the Lords institution this is no absurditie in vs to defend but impietie rather in you to withstande And that Princes may punish both Bishoppes and others for heresie dissention and all kinde of iniquitie by banishing and commaunding them to bee remoued from their Churches which you call depriuing cā not now be coūted absurd vnlesse you reiect the stories of the church and lawes of christian Princes which I before cited as absurd For there shall you finde that Emperours by their Lawes and Edictes haue commaunded Bishops to be iudicially depriued by other bishops actually displaced by their temporal Magistrates as well for erronious teaching as vicious liuing Phi. When you giue princes supreme power in matters of religion you giue thē leaue to do what they lift The. If you affirm that of vs your report is vtterly vntrue if you infer it vpon vs your reason is very ridiculous For what a fond illation is this Princes be supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iurisdictiō ergo princes may lawfully do what they wil. Phi. We say not lawfully but if there be none to cōtrole thē none can let thē to do what they list The. The dreadful iudgements of God not the leud practises of Popes must bridle Princes frō doing euill If they feare not a reuenger in heauen whom they can not escape they will neuer regard a conspirator in earth whom they may soone preuent yet we dispute not what tyrāts de facto wil do but what godly Princes of dutie should of right may do This is it that we seek for therfore you must conclude this or nothing Phi. You giue thē authority to make lawes punish for religion without anie mētion of truth or error The. The oth expresseth not their duty to God but ours to thē as they must be obeied whē they ioin with truth so must they be endured whē they fal into error which side soeuer they take either obediēce to their wils or submissiō to their swords is their due by Gods law that is al which our oth exacteth And yet when we professe thē to be gouernors that word restraineeh thē from their own lusts referreth thē to Gods ordināce For they which resist God impugn the truth oppresse the righteous assist error fauor impietie be no gouernors vnder God as all princes oughtto bee but tyrantes against God not bearers but wilful abusers of the sword which God hath appointed for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well And this though it be not expressed yet is it euer imploied in the very scepters swords thrones of princes For dominiō power maiesty belōg of right to god alone are by him imparted to Princes with this condition to this end that they shold raign vnder him not ouer him cōmand for him not against him be honored obeied after him not before him therefore this quarrell sauoreth not of ignorance but of malice when you say we giue Princes power to do what they wil in matters pertaining to God his seruice We reiect detest that sinful assertion more than you do In deede we say that the Pope may not pull Princes crownes frō their heads nor seeke to master them with contriuing rebellions treasons against them whiles hee pretendeth to depose them In this onely sense wee defende them to bee supreme that is not at libertie to do what they lift without regard of truth or right but without superiour on earth to represse them with violent meanes and to take their kingdomes from them Phi. It maketh the bodie aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdom aboue Christes mysticall bodie It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastour it giueth her power to commaund them whom wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the iudges yea of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh Theo. I am loth to bring you out of loue with your owne conceits otherwise I neuer saw more boldnes lesse soundnes in any man If we did preferre earthly things before heauenly you might iustly charge vs that we set the body aboue the soule but betweene Princes Priests that comparison is foolish except you thinke Priests to be without bodies Princes without soules which were a mery deuise The spirituall regiment which Christ hath ouer the faithfull in his Church is infinitely before the temporal regiment of Princes ouer their subiects But if by this you would inferre that good Princes may not punish euill Priestes you deface godlinesse and trueth in Princes as temporall and exact wickednesse and error in Priestes as spirituall which is more than absurde As for the right functions of Preachers and Princes if that bee the matter you speake of for you speake so doubtfully that wee can gather no certaintie what you meane know you that as in spiritual perfection and consolation the Preacher excelleth the Prince by many decrees God hauing appointed Preachers not Princes to bee the sowers of his seede messenges of his grace stewardes of his mysteries so for externall power and authoritie to compell punish which is the point that we stande on God hath preferred the Prince before the Priest so long as the Prince commaundeth that which God alloweth And in this case wee make not temporall aboue spirituall as you tricke it with termes but auouch that the same God who teacheth the simple and leadeth the willing by the Preachers mouth driueth the negligent and forceth the froward by the Princes sword which himselfe that is a spirit and the father of spirites hath ordained to that end The mystical bodie of Christ which is his church containeth not only Prists bishops but all the faithfull in heauenly graces inward vertues far exceedeth all earthly kingdomes and yet hath God himselfe authorized the sword on earth in Princes handes to be keepers
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
Christ to teach and baptise all nations without exceptioÌ„ but we say none hath at this present nor ought to haue any such power within the Realme and vnlesse you will defende that soules in heauen doe nowe preach the Gospel and minister the Sacramentes we see not how the Apostles haue any actuall function or ecclesiasticall power on earth here or elsewhere These quarrels full of spite and voide of al trueth and common reason doe more than you thinke impaire the credit of your religion and learning but so great is your malice that it shutteth your senses kindleth your cholor whiles you would say somwhat to say you care not what be it neuer so vntrue or vntidy Phi. The Princes soueraignty is directly against the commandement commission giuen to Peter first then to all the Apostles of preaching baptising remitting retaining binding loosing ouer all the world without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein Theo. That coÌ„mandement promise of our Sauior to his Apostles is no way preiudiciall to our doctrine nor beneficial to yours as also the charge which the preachers bishops of England haue ouer their flocks proceedeth neither from Prince nor Pope nor dependeth vpon the wil or word of any earthly creature therfore you do vs the more wrong so confidently to say what you list of vs as if your enuious reports were authentik oracles Phi. You make the Prince supreme gouernor in al spiritual ecclesiasticall thinges causes preaching baptising binding loosing such like be spiritual things causes ergo you make the Princes supreme gouernor euen in these things And here you may see that we iustly charge you with all the former absurdities though to shift theÌ„ vs off you say we do nothing but slander cauil Theo. And here you may see the truth of our speech vniustnes of your charge that as you began so you coÌ„tinue with spite full peâ—â—erting deprauing our words For by GOVERNORS we do not mean moderators perscribers directors inuentors or authors of these things as you misconster vs but rulers magistrates bearing the sworde to permit defende that which Christ himselfe first appointed ordained with lawfull force to disturbe the despisers of his wil testament Now what inconuenience is this if we say that Princes as publike Magistrates may giue freedom protection and assistance to the preaching of the word ministring of the Sacraments right vsing of the keies not fet licence from Rome Is that against Christs coÌ„mandement or commission giuen to Peter the rest or doth that proue all ecclesiasticall power cure of soules to proceed depend of the Princes right Phi. It keepeth the realme from obedience to general Councels which haue bin or shal be gathered in forraine countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any such Councels their Decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councel of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers and letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same Theo. Princes ought to heare obey the truth proposed by priuate persons Preachers much more to reuerence the same declared by a number of faithful godly Bishops meeting in a general councel But the pleasures orders of other princes prelats be their assembly neuer so great the rulers of this realme are not bound to respect vnlesse their consents be first required and obtained Particular councels you may call without vs and as we are not acquainted with them so are we not obstricted to them Generall Councels you can not call without the liking and warning of all Christian Princes and common-wealthes and if you neglect or skippe any they may lawfully refuse and despise that which you shal then and there decree For that which pertaineth to all can not be good without the knowledge and consents of all Phi. To the Councel of Trent you were requested and inuited by messengers froÌ„ the Pope and letters of other great Princes Theo. To your Chapter at Trent we came not for many good and sufficient reasons The Pope tooke vppon him to call that Councell which he had no right to do None might haue voices in the Councel but such as were his creatures and sworne to bee true trustie to his triple crowne The conclusion and resolution of all thinges was euer reserued to him or his Legates This Realme and others were inuited to come but as suppliants to your Synod to stand at your curtesies and to suffer your selues to be iudges in your owne cause and yet you thinke much that wee refused to come Let a christian councell bee agreed on by all their consentes that haue to do with it let both sides haue like interest in the councell Let your Salua semper in omnibus Apostolicae sedis authoritate Forprising in all thinges the Popes power and pleasure be reiected and the Scriptures inspired from God be laid in the middest as the ballance and touchstone of truth which was the wont of former councels Let both partes bee sworne to respect nothing but in the feare of God to examine the faith seeke out the ancient canons of Christs church if we faile to meete you declaime against vs on Gods name as hinderers of peace despisers of general councels Otherwise no duety bindeth vs to resort much lesse to be subiect to your vnlawfull routes voide of al christian authority liberty truth indifferency Phi. Was the Councell of Trent vnlawfully called Theo. Proue it the Popes right to cal generall Councels that none must sit there but his feed sworne men lastly that he must rule raigne as he doth in all assemblies bee iudge against al law reason in his own cause though he be chiefe in resisting the truth oppressing the church then will we grant your conuenticle at TreÌ„t was orderly called But if these things be repugnant to christian equitie the sincere canons of Gods Church whereby the Catholike Councels of former ages were directed as apparently they be then had your Tridentine chapter neither the calling keeping concluding nor meaning of a generall Councel Phi. Who shoulde call Councels if not the Pope Theo. Shew what one generall Councell the Pope called for the space of twelue hundred yeares after Christ and then aske vs who should call them but he if you can not learn that vsurpation is no right and that generall Councels were called by Princes and not by Popes and therefore the Popes power to summon generall Councels if it bee any grewe very lately and is not yet olde enough to bee currant or Catholike Phi. To the Councell of Trent other Princes consented Theo. Certaine Friers were set there to wast day light wearie the wals with declaiming against the Gospell of Christ whiles your holy
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very children knowe that these three wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A sheepeheard his flocke and to feede haue one and the same deriuation and therefore one and the same signification The holy Ghost himselfe vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Synonima that is words of the same power force For when Christ repeated this charge feed my sheep thriseâ— to Peter in the Gospel of S. Iohn his words are the secoÌ„d time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the third time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now draw your assumptioÌ„ from S. Pauls wordes rightly translated what conclude you Bishops haue commission from God to feede the Church or flocke of Christ which Princes haue not ergo Bishops by their calling may preach and Princes may not This is al you can infer and this is nothing against vs. Phi. They be superiors to Princes in feeding the flock of Christ ergo they be their superiors Theo. That sequele is not good In building Masons be superiour to Princes in sayling Mariners in fighting Souldiers be these men ergo simplie superiour to Princes I trow not Phi. Preaching the word dispensing the Sacraments pardoning the sinnes or men which are the Bishops charge be things far greater higher than any that Princes haue Theo. The perfection operation of these things which you name depend not on the wils of men but on the power of God therefore the honor estimation of them must serue for the praise of Gods glorie not for the increase of mans pride The Ghostly worke is Gods the bodilie seruice is the Priests wherein Iudas the thiefe Simon the sorcerer and Demas the renegate may chalenge as much as Iames the iust Peter the zealous and Iohn the faithfull the three pillers of Christs church Per ministros dispares Dei munuâ— equale est quia non illorum sed eius est By ministers far vnlike the gift of God saith Augustine is the same because it is not theirs but his Christ sent him that betraied him with the rest of his Disciples to preach the kingdom of heaueÌ„ to shew that the gifts graces of God are bestowed on theÌ„ which receiue the same with faith though he that deliuereth them be as bad as Iudas The things which God giueth saith Chrysostom caÌ„ not be made perfect by the holines of the Priest for all is done by his heauenly grace Only the Priests office is to open his mouth but it is God that worketh all the Priest doth only accomplish the external signe or act Men saith Ambrose in the remission of sinnes ministerium suum exhibeÌ„t non ius alicuius potestatis exercent do their seruice but exercise no right of authority They pray God giueth the seruice is by man the gift is froÌ„ the heauenly power Preaching the word is a worthier part of Apostolike dignity thaÌ„ ministring the sacraments by the witnes of S. Paul himself saying Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach the gospel And yet of preachers the scripture saith Neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the increase So that neither in the word nor sacraments you may chalenge any thing to man but only the corporal seruice which is common to the godly with heretiks hypocrits the rest is proper to God may not be ascribed to men without iniurie to him that is the true author of them mighty worker in theÌ„ And therefore the reason which you draw from the perfection of Gods graces in the Church to the preferring aduauncing of the Bishops person before the Princes is very vitious because the subiection reueÌ„ge due to the sword is imparted to the Princes person the dignitie vertue of the word sacraments is not to the Bishops Phi. The Priests commission is higher than the Princes why should not the priests person be aboue the Princes The. The priest hath his coÌ„mission as a seruant to cal for subiection obedience not vnto himself but vnto his Lord Master that sent him And this subiection because it is giuen to God infinitely exceedeth that which Princes may looke for But what is this to the Priests person who must preach himself to be The seruant of meaner men thaÌ„ Princes make himself The seruant of al men if he note wel the words of his commission and not striue with Princes for superioritie Phi. For their persons I wil not greatly staÌ„d with you but certainly their power is aboue the princes The. You â—un so fast that you forget where you should be We were debating who should direct princes in matters of faith you be slipt from that entring a new questioÌ„ who shal correct theÌ„ where the former is yet vnfinished Phi. You did coÌ„fesse that princes must obey Bishops so long as they speak truth The. And you would not deny but princes might refuse bishops if they swarued froÌ„ faith Phi. But who shal be iudge whether they swarue froÌ„ faith or no Theo. That is the question which I said was not yet resolued If Bishops teach truth surely princes must obey theÌ„ I mean the word of truth in their mouthes If they go froÌ„ truth theÌ„ princes must auoide theÌ„ To this we both consent but the doubt is whether trueth bee tyed to some certaine Persons or places where Princes may find it whence Princes must fet it or else whether Princes as all others must vse the best meanes they can to discerne true Preachers from false and so be directed by such as they thinke to be sent from God Phi. You would haue Princes and others leane to their owne iudgements and follow their owne fansies We would haue them sticke to the Church and looke to those Pastours whose faith can not faile Theo. Such Pastours bee worth the following if you can point vs to them Phi. Peters fayth can not fayle follow that faith and you can not misse the trueth Theo. He that keepeth Peters fayth in deede can not want the trueth because Peter beleeued the truth but we bee nothing the nearer for this Pauls fayth was likewise trueth and so was the faith of Matthew Iames Iohn Iude and others but who must be credited what fayth Peter and the rest preached Shall we take that at your hands by report or at their owne mouthes by writing Phi. If their writings were not darke or might not bee wrested the Scriptures were the best witnesses of their doctrine but now their successours must rather be trusted than euery man suffered to take what fayth he list out of their writings Theo. Rather so than worse doth not answere my question but must we trust their successours in matters of faith against or besides their writings Phi. Against their writings we must not besides their writings we must For many things are beleeued which are not expressed in the scriptures The.
Eugenius against the Councell of Basil affirmeth plainely Concilium potest errare sicut alias errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptam dictum Hieronymi melius sentientis postea fuit praelatum statuto Concilij A Councell may erre as otherwise a Councel hath erred about marriage to bee contracted betweene the rauisher and the rauished and the saying of Hierom as being of the sounder opinion was after preferred before the statute of the Councell And your argument that the church should fayle in fayth if councels should erre he reiecteth as friuolous Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium non potest errare quia Christus orauit pro ecclesia sua vt non deficeret It hindereth vs litle if it be sayde that a Councell can not erre because Christ prayed for his Church that it shoulde not fayle For though a generall Councell represent the whole vniuersall Church yet to speake trueth the vniuersall Church is not there precisely but by representation because the vniuersall Church consisteth of all the faithfull And this is the Church which can not erre Wherby it is not vnpossible but the true faith of Christ may continue in onely one person Therefore the Church is not sayd to faile nor to erre if the true faith remaine in any one If you woulde bee farther taught that a generall councell is neither the vniuersall church nor representeth the vniuersal church and that it hath erred and may erre we can send you to a marchant of the same stampe that your selues are of where you shall see as much as I say debated and commended with no small brauerie Certum est Concilia non esse vniuersalem Ecclesiam In nullo vniuersalium Conciliorum omnium hoc sibi praesumpsisse Patres inuenient vt dicerent Catholicam se repraesentare ecclesiam praeterquam in hijs quae nunc impugnamus Constantiensi Basiliensi nouissimis It is certaine that Councels are not the vniuersall Church In none of all the general Councels shal you find the fathers to haue arrogated thus much to themselues as to say they represented the catholike church besides these two last councels of Constance and Basil which wee nowe impugne And that general councels may erre no man more resolute than Pighius Neque enim haec sola quae nunc impugnamus Concilia turpiter grauiterque errasse certum est sed alia plurima It is certaine that not onely these Councels of Constance and Basill which we now disproue haue shamefully and absurdly erred but also many others And againe In fidei definitionibus errasse etiam vniuersalia etiam sanctorum Patrum Concilia comperimus Testimonio sunt de vniuersalibus Concilijs inprimus Ariminense vniuersale haud dubie c. Insuper Ephesanum secundum ipsum vniuersale c. testimonio inquam haec sunt errare posse etiam vniuersalia Concilia etiam legitimè congregata We find that generall councels euen of holy fathers haue erred in decrees of fayth For example of generall Councels the Councell of Ariminum vniuersall no doubt and also the second councel of Ephesus and that likewise vniuersall these I say are witnesses that euen generall Councels and those lawfully gathered may erre If Panormitane and Pighius might happily bee ouerseen in empayring the credite of councels S. Augustine was not when he sayde Who can be ignorant that Prouinciall and National Councels yeelde without any stay to the authoritie of generall Councels gathered out of the whole Christian world and that general Councels themselues are often amended the former by the later with Catholike peace and Christian charitie Phi. He saith Plenary councels are amended but not from errors Theo. What needeth amending where no fault is The condition which S. Augustine repeateth in the first indureth to the last Si quid forte a veritate deuiatum est If in ought they swarue from trueth And except that be vnderstood he answereth not the thing which was obiected by the Donatists They opposed Cyprians letters Cyprians iudgement Cyprians Councel in a matter of Doctrine not of Discipline S. Augustine replieth Bishops might be deceiued and so might Councels In what now but in matters of Doctrine Phi. Can you name vs any general coūcel that erred in matters of doctrine Theo. Your owne fellow nameth the Councell of Ariminum and of Ephesus the second besides the Councels of Constance and Basill Phi. I doubt not whether that of Ephesus were a wicked Councell but whether it were general or no. Theo. The Patriarks of Rome Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem Constantinople were called vnto it and present at it with the Bishops of diuerse and sundrie Prouinces as their subscriptions declare which are extant in the Councel of Chalcedon The Bishop of Rome by his Legates as his wont was in other Councels the rest in person and therefore out of question it was no Prouinciall Councel Againe the Emperour that called the Councell in his epistle to the same saith We thinking it not safe that this question of faith should be handled without your sacred Synod and the Bishops of the holy Churches of all places thought it needful that your sanctities should assemble Phi. The Bishops that were present at Ephesus complained after in the Councel of Chalcedon that they were threatned and forced Theo. The greater the disorder that was cōmitted in the Councel the stronger is our argument that Councels may bee miscaried if Bishoppes may be forced they may likewise bee circumuented as they were in the Councell of Ariminum or deceiued in opinion as they were in the Councels of Carthage Constance and Basil by the confession of your deerest friends If all these wayes they may be peruerted when they are assembled ergo they may make both an erronious and iniurious conclusion And for this cause S. Augustine teacheth that ecclesiasticall Iudges may be deceiued in that they be but men and calleth their councels Humane iudgements which may be circumuented and beguiled His wordes be Non igitur debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere cum ille semper veraciter iudicet ecclesiastici autē iudices sicut homines plerumque falluntur The Church may not prefere herselfe before Christ forsomuch as hee alwaies iudgeth rightly and ecclesiasticall iudges as being but men are often deceiued And rehearsing two Episcopall iudgements that passed against the Donatists in the Councels at Rome and Arle hee addeth Sed haec humana iudicia deputentur circumuenire ac falli vel etiam corrumpi potuisse dicantur But let these bee counted the iudgements of men and let it bee said they might either deceiue or be deceiued and perhaps corrupted The like hee sayth of the Councell of Ariminum This is that which the Catholike fathers in the Councell of Nice had established against the Arrian heretikes by authoritie of the trueth and which afterward in the Councel of Ariminum hereticall impietie vnder an
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
after they were indued with the power of the holy Ghost from aboue was assured truth void of all error the same spirit ruling their tongues that guided their pens But this priuilege to teach and write trueth without error was annexed to Peters person not conueied along to his successors no more thā their writings are canonicall because his were Phi. This was not the priuilege of S. Peters person but of his office that he should not faile in faith The. If you ment that other Apostles which were of the same office with him were to haue the same priuilege as well as he you saide right for the churches of Christ in all places where Peter neuer preached needed the same assurance of faith the same direction vnto trueth that the churches did which were planted by Peter But you will haue this priuilege remaine to some successor after Peters death and for that you shew vs no authority besides your owne which God knoweth is very simple Phi. Al the fathers applie this priuilege of not failing in faith to the Romane church Peters successours in the same Theo. You belie all the Fathers with one breath but that you haue a priuilege to say what you list in other men this were an arrogant an impudent lie What fathers I praie you applie this promise of not failing in faith to the Romane Church You say al for discharge of your credit let vs heare some Phi. S. Barnard writing to Pope Innocentius saith To what other See was it euer said I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith do not faile Theo. Could you find no father for the space of 1100. yeres that euer applied these wordes to the church of Rome before Bernard To be plaine with you masters Bernard is too yōg to cary the name of antiquitie too single to haue the credit of al the fathers But with thē that haue no mo one must go for all Indeed all the fathers that euer applied this priuilege to the church of Rome are poore Bernard more than a 1000. yeres after Christ in the midst of corruption but in this case wee require some grauer and elder father than Bernard Phi. To the which saith S. Cyprian infidelity or false saith can not come Theo. To which what church or successors Phi. Which you wil. And where you require fathers that the church of Rome can not er Cypriās words be very plaine Post ista nauigare audent ad Petri cathedram atque ecclesiam Principalem vnde vmtas Sacerdotalis exorta est a schismaticis profanis literas ferre nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorū fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ad quos persidia habere non possit accessum After al this they dare saile cary letters frō schismatiks profane persons to the chaire of Peter the principal church whence priestly vnity had her beginning do not remēber the Romanes to be those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom infidelity cā not come Theo. You do wel to repeate the place at large it wil ease me of some paines What conclude you of these words Phi. That the Bishop of Rome can not er Theo. How fet you that about Phi. To Peters chaire infidelitie can not come Theo. Those be not Cypriās words Phi. To the Romanes he saith infidelity cā not come Theo. He addeth somwhat more whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. All the better For if S. Paul praised their faith it was the truer Theo. But whose faith did Paul praise the Bishops or the peoples Phi. Why aske you that Theo. Because that directeth the sense of Cyprians words Phi. Whose say you Theo. I aske you you returne it to me Well then let S. Paul speake for vs both I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all because your faith is renoumed throughout the whole world You al containeth as well the people that receiued the faith as the Preachers that taught it and of the twaine rather the people than the Preachers because the preaching of the faith was as true elsewhere as in Rome but either the zeale deuotion of the people in receiuing the faith was greater at Rome than elsewhere as S. Hierom noteth that S. Paul commendeth or else because their citie was imperiall the fame of their receiuing the gospel was bruted farther abroad thā of other smaler cities did incourage others to go forward with the more boldnes for the which Paul thāketh God Take which you wil the peoples faith is it that S. Paul praiseth as his own words witnesse To you all that are at Rome I thanke my God for you all because your faith is made manifest to al the world Now if Cyprian say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes whose saith was praised by the Apostles mouth then can none of the people of Rome erre because the faith of them all was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. The church of Rome can not erre nor the people neither so long as they follow the faith of that church Theo. But if you build this on Cyprians words you must say that the church of Rome can not erre so long as shee followeth the people of Rome for their faith was praised by the Apostle And therefore choose whether you will impart this priuiledge to euery Citizen and Artisant in Rome that they can not erre as well as to the Pope that hee can not erre or else seeke for an other meaning of Cyprians saying Phi. What other meaning should we seeke for be not the wordes plaine enough Theo. You neither translate them right nor applie them right For Cyprian doth not discourse in that epistle whether the Romanes them-selues may fall from the faith but whether wicked persons reiected in other places from the communion should haue any refuge or find any fauour at Rome that he largely dissuadeth bringing this amongst others for a reason that where the Apostle praised the people of Rome in his time for their zealous imbracing the faith of Christ and incouraging others to doe the like it would nowe bee a great shame if wicked disturbers of the faith should bee succoured by them which he thought good to expresse in these words Neither doe they remember the Romanes to bee those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom wickednes or vnfaithfulnesse may not haue accesse Phi. Out vpon you what a gloze haue you brought vs here Theo. None but such as the whole Epistle shal iustifie Phi. You translate non possit may not Theo. A foule ouersight I assure you as though the very children in Grammer scholes did not learne that posse doth signifie to may or can or your law it selfe did not allow vs that exposition when it saith Id dicimur posse quod de iure possumus we can
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
depriue Princes of their Crownes and take their Scepters from them because the Apostle willed the christians to be tried rather by their brethreÌ„ than by their enemies which were Infidels Phi. In all which there is no difference betwixt kinges that bee faithfull and other Christian men who all in that they haue submitted themselues and their Scepters to the sweete yoke of Christ are subiect to discipline and to their Pastors authority no lesse than other sheepe of his fold Theo. In beleeuing the word receiuing the Sacraments and obeying the Lawes of God there is no difference betweene the Ruler and the Subiect but the temporall states and possessions of priuate men you may not meddle with by no color of ecclesiastical power or discipline much lesse may you touch the bodies or take the Crownes of Princes into your handes by your accidentall indirect authoritie which is nothing else but a sillie shift of yours to crosse the commaundements of God Phi. Though the state regiment policie and power temporall be in it selfe alwaies of distinct nature qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall common wealth called the church or bodie mysticall of Christ and the Magistrate spirituall and ciuill diuerse and distinct and sometimes so farre that the one hath no dependance of the other nor subalteration to the other in respect of themselues as it is in the Churches of God residing in heathen kingdoms and was in the Apostles times vnder the Pagan Emperours yet now where the lawes of Christ are receiued and the bodies politike and mysticall the Church and ciuill state the Mâ—gistrate Ecclesiasticall and Temporall concurre in their kinds togither though euer of distinct regimentes natures and endes there is such a concurrence and subalternation betwixt both that the inferiour of the two which is the ciuill state must needs in matters pertayning any way either directly or indirectly to the honor of God and benefit of the soule be subiect to the spirituall and take direction from the same Theo. This is tossing of termes as men doe tenez-balles to make pastime with The state regiment policie and power temporall is in it selfe you saie alwaies of distinct nature qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall Common-wealth called the Church or bodie mysticall of Christ. You seeke to confound that which you would seeme to distinguish and when you haue spent much breath to no ende you conclude that though the church and the Common-wealth be distinct states as you can not denie yet you will rule both by reason the Common-wealth as the inferiour of the two dependeth on the Church and hath subalternation to the church as to the superiour But Sir in plaine termes and more trueth to the Sonne of God ruling in his Church by the might of his worde and spirite all kingdomes and Princes must be subiect their swordes Scepters soules and bodies mary to the Pope attyring himselfe with the spoiles of Christ and his church no such thing is due The watch-men and sheepeheardes that serue Christ in his church haue their kinde of regiment distinct from the temporall power and state but that regiment of theirs is by counsell and perswasion not by terrour or compulsion and reacheth neither to the goods nor to the bodies of any men much lesse to the crownes and liues of Princes and therefore your shifting of wordes and shrinking from the Popes Consistorie to the Church the spirituall Common wealth the mysticall bodie of Christ and such like houering and vncertaine speaches is but a trade that you haue gotten to make the Reader beleeue wee derogate from Christ and would haue Princes superiours to the worde and Sacramentes which Christ hath left to gather and gouerne the church withall Howbeit this course is so common with you that now it doth but shame you A christian king must take direction not from the Popes person or pleasure but from the Lawes and commaundementes of Christ to whome alone hee oweth subiection And as for the Bishoppes and Pastours of his Realme whome you falsly call the spirituall Common-wealth and the mysticall bodie of Christ because they bee but partes thereof and not so much except withall they bee teachers of truth those he must and should consult in respect they be Gods messengers sent to him and his people but with great care to trie them and free libertie to refuse them if they be found not faithfull And when the Prince learning by their instruction what is acceptable to God in doctrine and discipline shall receiue and publish the same the Bishoppes themselues are bounde to obey and if they will not the Magistrate may lawfully see the rigour of his lawes executed vpon them On the other side if the Prince wil not submit himselfe to the rules and preceptes of Christ but wilfully maintaine heresie and open impietie the Bishops are without flatterie to reproue and admonish the Prince of the daunger that is imminent from God and if he persist they must cease to communicate with him in diuine prayers and mysteries but still they must serue him honour him and pray for him teaching the people to doe the like and with meekenesse induring what the wrath of the Prince shal lay on them without annoying his person resisting his power discharging his subiectes or remouing him from his throne which is your maner of censuring Princes Phi. The ciuill Gouernour is SVBIECT to the spirituall amongest christians Theo. I haue often tolde you howe The ciuill Gouernour must heare beleeue and obey the meanest seruaunt that God sendeth if hee speake no more than his Masters will That subiection Princes owe to the sender and not to the speaker But were they simplie subiect to the messengers of God as they are not will you reason thus Princes should obey the Preachers of God ergo if they doe not they may bee deposed This is the argument which wee so often haue denied why then labour you so much about the antecedent when we denie the consequent That Princes shoulde obey God and his worde is a clearer case than that they shoulde obey the Pope For of that no man doubteth and this wee not onely doubt but denie Take therefore that which is confessed on both sides and set your conclusion to it that the force of your reason may the better appeare Princes without all question are bounde to obey God ergo if they doe not their dueties to God they may be deposed by Priestes This is the sequele which we alwaies denied and this is the point which you first assumed to proue Phi. The condition of these two powers as S. Gregorie Nazianzen most excellently resâ—mbleth it is like vnto the distinct state of the same spirit and body or flesh in a man where either of them hauing their proper and peculiar operations endes and obiectes which in other natures may be seuered as in Brutes where flesh is not spirit in Angels
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
much lesse so great a Prince Truly I prepared to depart for so Montanus your messenger knoweth that vpon the receit of your letters if your grace vouchsafed but to write I might presently bee gone with my readines to obay preuent your rescript For I am not so madde as to thinke I may contradict such preceptes With what forehead then can they say I obaied not powers Neuer recken this man for a resistant that so many wayes protesteth and confirmeth his obedience to Princes learne you rather to follow his submission and draw him not against his own both deeds and wordes to be of your faction Phi. The people of Alexandria were twise or thrise in an vprore about him first vnder Constantius and after vnder Valens Theo. The people of Alexandria were very tumultuous and raised many horrible garboyles both in the Church and common wealth Socrates saith of them Populus Alexandrinus prae alijs populis seditionibus delectatur si quando occasionem seditionis fuerit nactus ad intolerabilia mala prorumpit nec sine sanguine sedatur The people of Alexandria delight in sedition more than other Cities and if at any time they catch any occasion to make a tumult they runne headlong to foule outrages and neuer end but with blood The selfe same report Euagrius giueth of them The people are soone stirred and easilie incited to a tumult most of all others they of Alexandria who by reason of their great number those obscure persons and of all sortes are insolent rash bold and in furie will venter on any thing Lamentable examples whereof you may reade in the stories of the church describing the horrible fights and slaughters that were between the Iewes Gentiles and Christians of that Citie as wel against the trueth as with it And therefore in these populous and tumultuous Cities if you did shew some insurrections of the people for their pastors it would doe you no great good Men haue raised tumults in al ages and that doth iustifie rebellion in you no more than Cains sword dipt in his brothers bloud at the first beginning of the world and neuer since drie doth warrant theeues to take mens liues by the high waies side yea rather lesse for they kill to supplie their needes you to reuenge your grifes they vnhorse priuate men you vnthrowe Princes they rifle howses you spoile kingdomes they fly vpon the fact you stand to the defence of it before the whole world Farre from this affection were S. Basil and S. Ambrose as euen now wee saw and Athanasius as farre if you dare trust him on his oth if not you shall shift him neerer by his acts When he saw the people of his Church grudge at the Emperours precept to remoue him from his seat and readie to take weapon in hand hee departed the citie Under Valens the people of that citie likewise resisted and would not suffer any violence to be offered Athanasius by the Captaines vntill the Emperours pleasure were precisely knowen touching Athanasius In so much that the multitude flocking together and a great hurlie burlie rising in the Citie a sedition was feared When the people some daies after was appeased Athanasius by night closely conueigheth himselfe out of the Citie Others saie that foreseeing the rashnes of the multitude and fearing least he should seeme to be the author of that euill which might ensue he hid him selfe all that time in his fathers tumbe Thus when hee might haue beene defended by the people hee would not and because they suffered him not to depart from them by day hee frale from them by night and left his Bishopricke to be disposed by the prince The like did Chrysostome in his troubles For when the people knew of his deposition they brake out into an vprore and would not suffer those that had it in charge from the Emperour to carrie him into banishment Chrysostom fearing least any other crime should bee fastned on him either that he did not obay the Emperour or that he stirred the people to sedition the third day after his depriuation priuilie leaueth his Church and yeeldeth himselfe to be caried into exile So that by S. Chrysostomes iudgement it is first a fault in a Bishop not to obay the Prince next it is an other fault to stirre the people to sedition be the cause neuer so good as Chrysostomes was not badde Phi. Likewise against Valens the Arrian Emperour Petrus successour to Athanasius and brother to S. Basil did seeke to the Pope of Rome for succour as al other afflicted Bishoppes and Catholikes euer did Theo. The Bishop of Rome in those daies was neither so mightie that he could nor wicked that he would assist subiects with armes against their Soueraignes Peter Bishop of Alexandria brought letters from Damasus Bishop of Rome allowing his election and Confirming the same the people vpon that spying their time displaced Lucius an Arrian and receiued Peter their right Bishoppe Phi. And what was this but resistance to the Prince Theo. Resist they might and did but not with armes Phi. Which way then Theo. By refusing his communion disobeying his iurisdiction and withdrawing their duties from him yeelding the same to Peter as to their lawful and true Bishop Phi. Socrates sayth the people taking courage expelled Lucius and set Peter in his place Theo. They might driue him away and make him forsake the Citie though not with armes But whatsoeuer the people did against Lucius in their heate hauing as I noted before vnto you out of the same writer a very sharp and seditious humour and being miserably handled by Lucius as scourged with whippes their flesh torne with hookes and diuersly tormented with fire vnto death the letters of Damasus incited them to no such thing but onely approued the election of Peter Phi. But Peter it shoulde seeme allowed the people in their enterprise for by their tumult he recouered his Bishopricke Theo. You must not imagine rebellions where none are written The people draue Lucius from the See being an intruder an heretike and a murderer other tumult the Storie doth not mention Phi. The Prince had placed Lucius there Theo. The election of Bishops in these dayes belonged to the people and not to the Prince and though Valens by plaine force placed him there yet might the people lawfully reiect him as no Bishoppe and cleaue to Peter their right Pastor Phi. Might they reiect him with armes Theo. I said not so Phi. But so they did Theo. That must you proue we find no such thing in the Storie neither of Socrates nor Sozomene Phi. Socrates sayth they expelled him Theo. But not with armes Phi. Do you thinke hee would yeeld without force Theo. Do you thinke any great force needed for a whole Citie to expell one man But why come you with thoughts when you should bring vs proofes That hee was expelled wee graunt but whether
Rege inconsulto Romanae ecclesiae Pontificem ordinassent ipsumque si non idoneè satisfaceret illicité accepta dignitate abdicare se praeciperet Why they had created a Bishoppe of Rome without the kinges consent against the auncient vse of their fathers and to commaund him that was chosen if hee made not due satisfaction to forbeare the dignitie which hee had vnlawfully taken To this Hildebrand answered that hee was chosen of the Romanes and violently constrained to take the place and yet by no meanes coulde be brought to permit himselfe to bee ordered Bishoppe of Rome vntill hee certainely knewe that the king and the Nobles of Germanie had consented to his election and for that cause hee had hitherto differred his consecration and surely woulde differ it vntill hee were aduertised of the Kinges pleasure by some trusty messenger The like Custome and priuilege the Prince had to consent to the elections of all other Bishoppes within his Empire before they coulde bee ordered as your owne Lawe confesseth and hee that withstoode it was accursed by the Popes owne mouth long afore Hildebrande was borne Adrian the Pope with a whole Synode of an hundreth fiftie-three Bishoppes yeelded vnto Charles the great right and power to choose the Bishoppe of Rome and to dispose the See Apostolike Also Adrian defined that the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of euery Prouince shoulde receiue inuestiture of Charles so that vnlesse a Bishoppe were first liked and inuested by the King hee might not bee consecrated by any man And whosoeuer did against this Decree hee accursed In an other â—â—â—ncell helde at Rome Leo the eighth of that name after the example of Adrian confirmeth this custome to Otho the first King of the Germanes and Emperour of the Romanes I Leo with the whole Clergie and people of Rome doe settle confirme and establish and by our Apostolike authoritie we graunt and giue vnto our Lord Otho the first and his successours power for euer to appoint a Bishoppe of this chiefe Apostolique See and likewise Archbishoppes and Bishoppes that they shall receiue inuestiture of him in so much that no man of what dignitie or profession soeuer hee bee shall haue power to choose a Bishoppe of this chiefe Apostolike Seate or to consecrate any other Bishoppe without consent of the Emperour If therefore a Bishop bee chosen by the Clergie and people let him not bee consecrated vnlesse he be first allowed and inuested by the foresaid king And if any man attempt any thing against this our Apostolike sentence wee determine him to stand excommunicate These grauntes and confirmations your owne Stories doe witnesse though Blondus seeme to doubt of them as vnlikely Sigebert sayth From Charles the great for the space of three hundreth yeeres and aboue during the liues of threeskore and three Bishoppes of Rome they that were Emperours of Rome gaue Bishoprickes and Abbayes by the deliuerie of a ring and a staffe that then was counted lawful Now in the dayes of Hildebrand against the Decrees of their fathers the Popes in their Synodes haue determined that no Bishoprike nor ecclesiastical inuestiture can or should be giuen by a lay man with a staffe and a ring and they which so receiued Bishoprikes or other ecclesiasticall preferments were excommunicated Thus Hildebrand pretended to follow the steppes of his fathers when hee forsooke them and concluded that to bee Symonie which was none and made it a cause of depriuation for the Prince to hold that right which two Bishops of Rome with their Synodes expresly confirmed to Charles and Otho and sixtie three Bishops had suffered and approued in the Germane Emperours and himselfe had protested to the Princes Legates at his first entrance to the Bishoprike If this were not a mere quarell vniustlie sought by the Pope vpon the Prince against all order and equitie your nearest frindes shall be my iudges The seconde cause of Hildebrandes presumption against the Prince is like the first For what Lawe diuine or humane forced the Prince to goe to Rome at the Popes call Howe proue you that for sinne committed against God the Pope may enioyne what penance hee list And the Prince must abay Or that if the Prince refuse the Popes newe founde and needlesse penances hee must bee deposed Philand Woulde you not that Princes shoulde repent their wicked liues Theoph. Yeas and amende them with all Christian care and speede But what power hath the Pope by Gods Lawe to pardon the sinnes of Princes more than an other Bishoppe hath Or why shoulde Princes repenting not bee forgiuen without perfourming such penance as the Bishoppe of Rome list to deuise for them Had Gregorie delt with Henry the fourth to correct those thinges which were amisse and to returne to GOD with earnest and heartie repentaunce wee woulde not haue misliked that fatherly monition both to giue eare to the sinister and slaunderous informations of subiectes and Rebelles against their Prince to cite him in person to appeare at Rome that was his Soueraigne Lord and master to repell his messengers with reproche and infamie that came to cleare him to depriue him of his kingdome for not consenting to such penaunces as the Pope in pride and rage should impose to make him stand three daies in the colde frost barefooted before hee could bee admitted to presence and after his submission and absolution giuen by the Pope him selfe to set vppe his seruantes and sonnes to take his Crowne from him If this bee Iustice the dyuell himselfe may suffer for Iustice as wel as Pope Hildebrand Phi. Are Princes too good to do penance for their sinnes Theoph. Prooue first that such penances as you list to enioyne are necessarie partes of our conuersion vnto GOD and then wee will say Princes may be blamed for refusing them otherwise you wickedly abuse the keyes in that you make them serue your lustes to compasse your purposes and to bee reuenged of your enemies vnder colour of repenting and reconciling vnto God Phi. Must not the Church also bee satisfied Theo. If Popes vnder the name of the Church play the Tyrants and content not them-selues with those signes of inwarde sorrowe which God accepteth they bee nowe not forgiuers of sinnes nor watchmen ouer soules but cunning huntsmen after gâ—â—â—e and peruerters of trueth with their prophane policie which turne the keâ—â—s and Cannons of Christes Church to enrich them-selues and to get a Lordly Dominion ouer all persons and places by restraining the Sacraments and enioyning penaunces such as they see make most for their aduantage And this hath beene the manner of all your late Popes vpon priuate and earthly displeasures and quarrels to curse and banne both Prince and people till amendes were made them euen in their owne liking as if Christ had ordayned the Sacramentes to bee not seales of his grace and helpes of our fayth but baites to catch kingdomes and roddes to reuenge such Princes as will
were despised when they trauelled for peace Phi. But say no more than you wil proue Theo. Your owne friends shal heare me recorde that I doe not faine The griefe that Adrian the fourth conceiued againâ—â— Frederike the first the occasious therof though I might report out of Radeuicus that thâ—â— liued yet had I rather take them out of Adrians owne words in his epistle to Frederik which are these By the word of truth we are taught that euery one which exalteth himself shal be brought low Wherfore we maruel not a litle at your discretion that you giue not S. Peter the holy Church of Rome that reuerence which you ought For in your letters directed vnto vs you set your name before ours which is a note of presumption I will not say arrogancie What shal I speak of the fidelitie which you promised confirmed with an oth to S. Peter to vs in what sort you perform it when as you require homage exact fealty of them which be gods the sons of the most high euery one of them I meane the Bishops closing their haÌ„ds within yours wheÌ„ you receiue it setting your self against vs you shut not only the churches but the cities of your kingdom against the Cardinals that came froÌ„ our side Repent therefore repent we aduise you lest whiles you couet the thinges which you should not you loose that which you haue For the better discerning of the Popes ambitious enuious spirit you shall hear with what mildnes lenitie the prince made his answere Whatsoeuer regality your PopedoÌ„ hath you gat it by the gift of princes WhereupoÌ„ when we write to the Bishop of Rome by right by ancient vse we set our name first Looke your records if before you did not marke this which we say there you shall find it Of them whom you call gods I winne by adoption since they hold part of our regalities why should we not exact both homage and an oth of fealtie whereas our master yours holding nothing of any earthly king but bestowing all good things on all men paied tribute to Caesar for himselfe for Peter gaue you an example so to do saying Learne of me for I am meeke and humble in hart Let therefore your Bishops either restore vs our temporalities or if they finde them so profitable that they will not let them giue to God that which is Gods and to Cesar that which is Cesars due To your Cardinals our churches are shut our cities not open because we see them to be no Preachers but spoilers no makers of peace but snatchers of mony no reformers of meÌ„ but insatiable scrapers of gold WheÌ„ we shal see them to be such as the church needeth that is bringing peace lightning countries assisting the humble in equity we our selues wil not fail to appoint for them necessary prouisioÌ„ maintenaÌ„ce And to tel you truth you giue vs cause to suspect your humility meekenes which is the nource of al vertues when you quarel with temporall persons about these matters which make nothing to religioÌ„ We caÌ„ not choose but send you this answere when we see the detestable beast of pride to haue crept vnto Peters seate This reply though grouÌ„ded on nothing but manifest reason trueth did so sting the Pope his Cardinals that they ioyned in a generall conspiracy with WilliaÌ„ king of Scicily verie neere all the cities of Italy to crosse the Emperour to the vtmost of their powers and when the Pope died to choose none but one of the same faction that should continually pursue the Prince both with sedition and excommunication till they gate the vpper hande of him Iohannis Cremonensis a writer of that time saieth In this conspiracie the greater part of the Cardinals William king of Scicilie and almost all the cities of Italie bounde them-selues with many Barons and other greater men and a mighty masse of monie was giuen to Pope Adrian that hee shoulde excommunicate the Emperour And farther hee saieth hee learned of credible men of Millan and Brixia that were parties in this action that the conspiracie with Pope Adrian was so fastned with othes that none of them might leaue the rest or seeke the Emperours fauour without the consent of all and if the Pope departed this life they should choose a Cardinall of the same confederacie The reward which Adrian receiued at Gods hand as that writer sayth was this that A few daies after he had denounced his excommunication against the Emperor at Anagnia as he walked abroad to refresh himself came to a spring to tast of the water a flie by report entred his mouth and stucke so fast to his throate that by no helpe of Physitions it could be remoued til hee gaue vp the ghost Phi. Nauclerus you knowe doubteth of this storie because the Italian writers make no mention of it Theo. That is no reason to disproue the writer You know what Cuspinian a man of your owne side saith of your Italian stories in the liues of both the Frederikes Merula an Italian not knowing the thinges which Emperour Frederike did but as following Blondus or Platina doth fouly erre many times And againe The Italians as Blondus Platina both of one age complaine of the want of stories They disdayned to reade the chronicles of the Germanes the which because they sauored not of the Romane eloquence they reiected and missing in many pointes they affirm very often lies for truth Some of them offended with the whole Nation of Germanie call all the Germane Princes that were Emperors barbarians And to flatter their Popes they charge the Germane Princes with many moe vices than they had Want of other writers before them hatred of the Germans whose Princes often wasted Italie with fire and sword and a naturall desire to magnifie the Pope made the Italians disdaine to seeke the truth or to dissemble it when they saw it Phi. Did not the Germanes thinke you beare affection towardes their Princes and spite the Pope for accursing and impugning their Emperours Theo. I alleadge none but Priests Monks Abbats that were in the Popes danger and not in the Princes and such as otherwise did honour the Pope depend vppon his See saue when he offered so open wrong and violence that no Prince coulde indure it But we wade further than we neede Nauclerus doubteth whether AdriaÌ„ were choked with a flie but of the conspiracie which is the thing that I purposed neither hee nor you can doubt It was complained of by the Cardinals that refused their societie it was confessed by the citizens of Millan it was proued in the Councell of Pauia it was reported by letters both from the Prince from the * Bishop of Babenberge to Eberhard the Archbishop of Saltzburge it was verified by the sequele I mean by the wilful resistaÌ„ces which the coÌ„federat
not be possible for him and the Princes that succeeded him to represse the Popes insolencie which beganne to increase apace This was the true cause why Gregorie the 9. set himselfe against Frederike the second after his first absolution which cost so many thousands what soeuer the Italian writers do imagine in hatred of Frederike whom they misliked as well for persuing the Pope as for spoyling and wasting their natiue Countrie Phi. Did hee not well deserue their hatred that ranged ouer all Italie with incredible cruelty sacked their cities filled euery towne village familie with mortal discord and dissention banished and murdered Bishoppes imprisoned the Cardinals Prelats as they were comming to the Councel so pursued inclosed the Pope that he died for very griefe of heart as Platina writeth Theo. Will you kindle a fire and then looke it should not burne What other fruits of warre coulde you expect but these or worse You made leagues to bereaue him of his right you caused his subiects to meete him in the field you accursed his person and depriued him of his Empire you came out in armes against him as you would against a Turk or an Infidel you did what you could to requite him his with like rage and violence when you could not be euen with him you thought it best to complaine of his crueltie But you loose your labour For warres are iudged by their causes and not by their consequents If Frederikes cause were good as the persuite of his right demand of obedience within the Territories of his Empire could not be euil thē your rebellions confederatiōs excōmunications depriuations such like actions to resist him defraud him or oppresse him were al wrongful wicked and his reuenge of your conspiracies treacheries though sharp and seuere was lawful as the cause stood needful Phi. No Prince euer delt so badlie with the Church of Rome as Frederike did Theo. No Prince was euer prouoked with halfe the iniuries with the which he was He was foure seueral times solemnly deposed by the bishops of Rome once by Honorius twise by Gregorie lastly by Innocentius the 4. his good friend whiles he was a Cardinal but his capital enimie when hee came to bee Pope Phi. It skilleth not how often it was done so long as it was done for causes vrgent important Theo. If the Pope had any such power as he hath not the causes must be iust and true which these were not Phi. Yes that they were And though the rest did not so plainely expresse thē which maketh you to carp at them yet Innocentius the 4. layeth his downe in writing which are extant to this day Theo. You say trueth The censure of Innocentius against Frederike the second is extant in your Decretals and foure causes of his deposition there remembred Phi. And those no lesse than periurie sacrilege heresie iniurie and oppression of the Church of Rome The. If it be enough for you to obiect what you list you may soone condemne whom you please We heare your holy father in his magnificence charge the Emperour with these foure things but I winne it woulde trouble him or you to prooue them Hee committed periurie the Pope sayth in his iudiciall sentence by rashly breaking the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire If the trueth were well tried this periurie lighteth on the Pope and not on the Prince For Howe coulde the Popes Legates be in the field against the Prince to assist his rebels and not breake the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire Is the Popes power so infinite that he can make right in the Prince to be periurie and warre in him-selfe to bee peace The taking and deteyning of Cardinals and Prelates was the sacrilege which in this place is obiected to the Prince but when you proue that Prelats and Cardinals be no subiectes and that they may lawfully take armes against Princes and yet no Prince must lay handes on them then you may chaunce to haue an action of wrongful detynue against the Emperour but not of sacrilege It is a point of your popish pride to make it sacrilege for a lawfull magistrate to restraine your parish Priestes of Rome from their seditious intens practises What are your Cardinals by Gods Law more than other Clergie men or why may not the Prince both represse them and punish them if they disturbe his state Phi. They were not his subiects Theo. Then were they his enemies since they came armed and presumed with their shippes to encounter his why should he not sease them as his prisoners Phi. They came to keepe a Councel being thereto called by the Popes authoritie Theo. To call Councels was the Emperours right and not the Popes and this conuenticle was called to oppresse the Emperour Why therefore might hee not preuent it and disperse it especially when straungers offered to passe his dominion by plain force without his leaue Heresie was the third crime for which the Pope suspected him Wherin if a mortall enemie may be both accursed and iudge and proceede vpon no better ground than suspition you may quickly condemne any man of heresie Princes haue warme offices if they shal lose their Crownes as soone as the Pope lysteth to suspect them of heresie The fourth cause is more foolish than any of the former The prince forsoothe forced his subiects in Sicilie to aguise him and obey him as their lawful prince notwithstanding the Bishoppe of Rome had deposed him and the persons that would not hee banished and diuersly punished This in deede was not for your profite but this was nothing against his dutie Ph. He forced them to impugne the Church of Rome whose vassalles they were Theo. The Church of Rome had a yeerely pension out of Sicilie which is here specified more the Pope could not claim and that pensiō was first yeelded by those that vsurped the kingdome of Sicilie against the Empire For Roger of Normanie whē Lotharius the Emperor had chased him out of Apulia Campania taken those countries from him intended the like for Calabria Sicilie but that he was called away by suddain occasions died before he could returne grew to a secret compact with the bishop of Rome to hold the kingdome of Sicilie which the Emperour claymed as from the Church of Rome by a yeerely recognisance After the death of Lotharius Conradus the next Emperour was so troubled first with rebellion at home then with an expedition into Syria that he had no leasure to thinke of Sicilie Against Frederike the first who succeeded Conrade in the Empire did William of Sicilie nephew to this Roger for his sonne raigned not long conspire with the cities of Lombardie and the Bishoppe of Rome to keepe the Germane Emperour aloofe from Italie and so long they striued hauing
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
did whom you cal a blessed bishop for his labor your selues do worse For you be not cōtent to resist as he did by wilfull departing the Realm you take weapon in hand to depose the Prince terme it iust honorable warre to rebell against a lawfull Magistrate which impiety he did not declare in act though in heart perhaps he did not abhor it But omit that he ment and come to that hee did except you shew what one thing in those ancient lawes of the crowne to which the Archbishop had expresly sworne was repugnant to the word of God or office of a christian Prince we conclude your blessed Bishop and Canterburie Saint to be a shameful defender of wickednesse an open breaker of his oth and a proude impugner of the sword which God hath authorized as the Scripture teacheth And albeit wee like not the maner of his death that priuate men shoulde vse the sword which is deliuered vnto princes yet the cause for which he withstood the king was enormous impious dying in that though his death were violent he could be no martyr Phi. You be loth to haue him a martyr he was so far both frō your opinion in this point religion otherwise but yet he died in the defence of the Catholike church therefore we iustly count him blessed Theo. Hee died not in defence of the church he stoode stifly for the Popes pride and gaine and for the impunitie of malefactours among the Clergie which thinges no way touch the true lawes or liberties of Christes church And therefore you must either proue that clergie men are not subiect to the Princes sword for heinous offences which is most false and that appeales from all places must bee made to the Bishop of Rome which you shall neuer do or else it is euident that Thomas Becket deserued rather the reward of a traytor than the honour of a Martyr these two being the principall causes for which he resisted the king whiles hee liued and was canonized after he was murdered Phi. The church of Rome liked and allowed of his doings though you doe not Theo. She had good reason so to do He gaue his life for the maintenance of her wealth and ease and therefore if shee shoulde not esteeme him shee were to blame but this was no quarell for a christian Bishop to spend his blood in The due correction of offenders by the temporal sworde though they were clergie-men and diligent execution of iustice at home without running to Rome when either part was disposed to vexe the other were lawfull and wholesome preceptes of the kinges of this Realme and so long as the resistance made by the Archbishop against the king was sinfull and seditious consequently the state he stood in damnable though the death he suffered were wrongfull as not proceeding orderly from a magistrate but furiously inflicted by some that were offended to see a Bishop brest a king in so vile a cause Phi. The king himselfe in the end was driuen to order and penance Theo. It was easie for you when not only his neighbours but his owne son rose in armes against him to winne his consent to any thing By warres and inuasions of Realme vpon Realme by defection of subiects from their soueraignes by the rebellion of children against their parentes your cunning hath beene to driue Princes to order and keepe them in awe but that doth not iustifie your vnnaturall and vnchristian tumults to force them to your bent We dispute not whether of late you haue so done but whether of right you may so doe wee see the meanes which Antichrist hath vsed to aduance his kingdom but those we say be neither agreeable to the sacred scriptures nor to the course of Christs church in former ages they be late deuises practises of Popes to exalt themselues aboue the highest the iustice of God preparing that plague for the sinnes of men and dissention of Princes which should haue ioyned togither to succour his truth safegard his church by repressing the Popes pride driuing him to Christian integritie and modesty and would not Wherefore God gaue them ouer into his hands that he should tread on their necks play with their crownes as pleased himselfe and they thinke it some great honor and preferment to kisse his feete hold his bridle whiles he gets to horsebacke Phi. A number of the like examples mo we might recite of our Country of the christian world whereby not only the practise of the church in al ages may be seene but also catholike men warranted that they be no traitors nor hold assertions treasonable false or vndutiful in answering or beleeuing that for heresie or such like notorious wickednesse a Prince otherwise lawfull and annointed may be excommunicated deposed forsaken or resisted by the warrant of holy churches iudgement and censure Theo. From the conquest to King Henrie the eight there was no Prince of this Land deposed by the Pope but only King Iohn Deposition was offered to Philip the fourth and Lewes the twelfth Kinges of Fraunce but they were so farre from taking it that they withdrewe their whole Realme from the Popes obedience and ouerreached your holy Father with his owne practise Philip by the general consent of his Nobles and Bishoppes not onely despised the Popes sentence of depriuation against him but requited him with the like and to tame his pride tooke him prisoner and made him end his life for very griefe of hart within sixe weekes after Thus sayth Platina died Bonifacius hee that went about rather to strike a terrour into Emperours kings Princes and Nations than to plant religion in them and chalenged to giue and take kingdomes and to aduaunce and debase men at his plasure And so saith Gaguinus This ende of his life had Bonifacius the contemner of all men who not remembring the precepts of Christ tooke vpon him to dispose crownes and depriue kinges as hee sawe cause whereas hee supplieth his roome on earth whose kingdō is not of this world nor in earthly things but in heauenly and gate the Popedome by deceit and vngodly meanes and kept his predecessour in prison so long as he liued from whom he wrested that dignity This example you would not alleadge because you sawe the whole Realme of Fraunce stoode with Philip against Bonifacius that the Pope had no right to depose Princes Lewes the twelft in a Councel at Tours had the resolution of al the French Bishops that he might surcease from the Popes obedience and contemne his vniust censures and had not Maximilian somwhat slacked and Iulius in the meane time died the Pope himselfe had bin depriued of his triple crowne in the Councell of Pisa which was indicted by the Prelates of Germanie and Frāce at the instaunce and pursuite of Lodouike The Bishops of Nations assembled and decreed Iulius to be cited Vpon the
she is tried in the fornace cleanest when she is vanned whitest when she is scoured and safest when she is iudged in the world that she be not condemned with the world The Church of Christ hath alwaies prospered in miserie and decaied in prosperitie Israel increased whiles they were oppressed by Pharaoh and when they came to be fed with Manna vnder Moses they were consumed The bloud of the Martyrs is the very nourcerie of the Church and the first poison of Religion was the wealth and pride of Bishops The grace of God is made perfect through weakenesse and when our outward man perisheth our inward is daily renewed Phi. Why rage you thus What haue we said Theo. That which neuer learned or Christian man sayde before you say your saluation is vnsufficient if you may not rebell against Princes when they oppresse you Phi. If there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. Then was not the Primatiue Church sufficiently prouided for by the sonne of God for they lacked compotent forces as your selfe did confesse to restraine those heretiks Apostataes and tyrants that afflicted them Then were the Apostles vnfurnished for their saluation for they had nothing besides hope to beare the brunt of those continuall and bloudie persecutions which they suffered Then is God carelesse of his Saincts for so much your religious wordes import since they shall haue none other refuge in all assaults but faith and patience Wo worth your worldly mindes that cannot so much as say with the Apostle whatsoeuer you thinke I take pleasure in infirmities in reproches in necesâ—ities in persecutions in anguish for Christ for when I am weake then am I strong Phi We haue giuen better experience thereof than you we haue these 27. yeres endured al sorts of afflictions calamities that might befal men in exile and therefore neuer charge vs to be worldly minded our long and hard banishment doth clearely quite vs from that slaunder Theo. You haue beene long absent but much against your wils had any of your practises well succeeded you had many yeres since returned with fier and sword but God of his mercie toward this realm hath wearied their heads and filled their hands that should be your leaders and now waxing sharp through impatience much displeased to see your selues so often disappointed you not onely by your booke blowe the trump to rebellion but shew the very ground and persuasion of your hearts to be this that except you may depriue the Prince with dint of swoord God hath not sufficiently prouided for your saluation as though life to come woulde doe you litle good except in the meane time you might abounde and not feele want liue in honour and not thus wander raigne ouer Princes and not obey them or endure them Phi. Wee see howè the whole worlde did runne from Christ after Iulian to plaine Paganisme after Valens to Arianisme after Edward the sixt with vs into Zwinglianisme and would doe into Turcisme if any powerable Prince will lead his subiects that way If our fayth or perdition shoulde on this sort passe by the pleasure of euery secular Prince and no remedie for it in the state of the newe Testament but men must holde and obey him to what infidelitie so euer he fall then wee were in worse case than heathens and all other humane common wealthes which both before Christ and after haue had meanes to deliuer them-selues from such tyrants as were intolerable and euidently pernicious to humane societie and the good of the people for whose peace and preseruation they were created by man or ordayned by God Theo. You finde that multitudes ranne from Christ to Paganisme after Iulian to Arianisme after Valens but doe you finde that the godly did rebell against them because a number ranne after them What presumption is this in you to controle the wisedome and goodnes of God sifting his Church by the rage and furie of wicked Princes and crowning those that bee his as patient in triall and constant in trueth Were you throughly perswaded that the heartes of Kinges are in the handes of GOD and that the haires of our heades are numbred so that no persecution can apprehend his which hee disposeth not toward them for experience of their fayth or recompence of their sinnes you woulde as well honour the iustice of God in erecting tyrants that our vnrighteousnes may bee iudged and punished in this worlde as embrace his mercie in giuing rest to his Church by the fauour of good and vertuous Princes And therefore I appeale to the consciences of all good men whether this reason of yours if there were no way to depriue Princes and to take their Crownes from them wee were in worse case than heathens bee not a prophane despising the Counsell of God towarde his Church and an open betraying of your vnquiet stomackes when you bee in trouble Our Sauiour foreteaching his that they shoulde bee brought before Kinges and Rulers and put to death and hated of all men for his names sake addeth not as you would haue it and hee that first rebelleth but hee that endureth to the end shall bee saued and againe not with violence restraine them but in patience possesse your owne soules This is the way for all Christian subiects to conquerre tyraunts and this is the remedie prouided in the newe Testament against all persecutions not to resist powers which GOD hath ordayned lest wee damned but with all meekenes to suffer that we may bee crowned Phi. The heathens before Christ and after had meanes to deliuer them-selues from such tyrants as were intolerable and euidently pernicious to humane societie and the good of the people for whose peace and preseruation they were created by man or ordayned by God Theo. A meane they had to dispatch such as they counted tyrants and that was to kill them which Christians may not imitate and yet did your Holy Father of late in Cardinall Comos letter promise earthly and heauenly recompence to Parry for offering his seruice to kill her maiestie The letter is extant the purpose confessed the partie executed Looke there you shall see the Bishoppe of Rome and his Cardinals to bee right heathens and to carrie the same myndes that they did if not worse For they knowing no GOD besides the ghesse of their owne heartes and hauing no rule to leade them but onely reason and buylding a felicitie to them-selues in this life sawe no cause why one man shoulde bee suffered to afflict and disease a number and supposing any thing to bee lawfull that relieued the Common wealth they decreed him to bee no murtherer but a delyuerer of his countrie that woulde kill a tyrant You hauing the manifest voyce of GOD thou shalt not kill which you ought to preferre afore your owne lyues and being prohibited by the holy Ghost to doe euill that good may come
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
followeth after sheweth in what sense he tooke the word supreme At this day sayth he where Poperie continueth howe many are there which lode the king with all the right and power they can that there should be no disputing of religion but this authoritie should rest in the king alone to appoint at his pleasure what hee list and that to stande good without contradiction They that first so highly aduanced king Henry of England were inconsiderate they gaue him supreme power of all thinges and that was it which alway wounded me Then succeede your wordes and withall a particular exemplication howe Steuen Gardiner alleaged and constred the Kings stile in Germanie That Iuggler which after was Chauncelour I meane the Bishop of Winchester when hee was at Rentzburge neither would stande to reason the matter nor greatly cared for any testimonies of the scriptures but said it was at the kinges discretion to abrogate that which was in vse appoint new He said the king might forbid priests mariage the king might barre the people from the cup in the Lordes supper the king might determine this or that in his kingdome And why Forsooth the king had supreme power This sacrilege hath taken hold on vs in Germanie whiles Princes think they cannot raign except they abolish al the authoritie of the church be thēselues supreme Iudges as wel in doctrin as in al spirituall regiment This was the sense which Caluin affirmed to bee sacrilegious and blasphemous for Princes to professe them-selues supreme Iudges of Doctrine and discipline and in deede it is the blasphemie which all godly heartes reiect and abomine in the Bishoppe of Rome Neither did King Henry take any such thing on him for ought that wee can learne But this was Gardiners Stratageme to conuey the reproche and shame of the sixe articles from himselfe and his fellowes that were the authors of them and to cast it on the kings supreme power Had Caluin been told that supreme was first receiued to declare the Prince to be superior to the Prelats which exempted themselues from the Kings authoritie by their Church liberties and immunities as well as to the Lay men of this realme and not to bee subiect to the Pope who claymed a iurisdiction ouer all Princes and Countries the woorde woulde neuer haue offended him but as this wylye foxe framed his answere when the Germanes communed with him about the matter wee blame not Caluin for mistaking but the Bishop of Winchester for peruerting the kings stile wresting it to that sense which all good men abhorre Phi. Do not you at this day make the Queene supreme Gouernour of al ecclesiasticall doctrine and discipline And what discrepance I pray you between Iudge and Gouernour Theo. You may be Steuen Gardiners scholer you bee so wel trained in his methode and maximes Wee told you long since and often enough if that will serue the prince by her stile doth not chalenge neither do we by our othe giue her highnes power to debate decide or determine any point of fayth or matter of religion much lesse to bee supreme iudge or gouernour of all doctrine and discipline But if in her realme you will haue the assistance of the magistrates swoord to settle the trueth and prohibite error and by wholesome punishments to preuent the disorders of all degrees that authoritie lieth neither in Prelate nor Pope but onely in the Prince and therefore in her Dominions you can neither establish doctrine nor discipline by publike Lawes without her consent This neither Caluin nor the compilers of the Centuries nor any other of sound religion euer did or iustly can mislike onely Iesuites their adherents would faine reserue this power to the Pope in al Christian realmes because they be sure he will allowe and suffer no religion but his owne and so long their profession shall not miscarie Phi. The Centurists say Princes may not bee heads of the Church that primacie is not fit for them Theo. That word if they mislike wee stand not for it The holy Ghost hath inuested the sonne of God with it and therefore reason princes euen for reuerence to him should forbeare the stile which hee first vsed most esteemeth And though some defence might be brought for the word as that which Samuel said to Saul When thou wast litle in thine own sight wast thou not made HEAD of the tribes of Israel For the Lorde annoynted thee king ouer Israel and that which Dauid sayth of himself Thou hast made me HEAD of the heathen and that which Esai saith of the king of Syria THE HEAD of Aram is Damascus and the HEAD of Damascus is Rezni and again the honorable mā he is the HEAD as also S. Paul the man is the womans HEAD Chrysostom not sticking to call certaine women that laboured in the Gospel HEAD OF THE CHVRCH at Philippi and saying of Theodosius the Emperor Summitas caput omnium super terram hominum SVPREME AND HEAD of all mortall men Though these and many like places might bee brought to auouche the worde HEAD yet because that title HEAD OF THE CHVRCH rightly and properly belongeth onely to Christ not to Princes without many mitigations and cautions and head as it is applied to Princes is al one with Supreme for it importeth but the chiefest or highest person of the Church on earth and with the regiment of the Church whereof Christ is head I meane his mysticall bodie Princes haue nothing to doe yea many times they be scant members of it and the Church in each countrie may stand without Princes as in persecution it doth and yet they not headlesse we thinke not good to contend with our brethren for wordes and to greeue their eares with titles first abused by the pope and first reproued in him so long as in matter and meaning there is no discord betwixt vs. Phi. Will you make vs beleeue they mislike nothing but the wordes head of the Church Theo. Yeas they mislike that Princes should mingle trueth with falsehood and temper religion with corruption as their priuate fancies lead them which we mislike no lesse than they This is the scope of our speach say they that it is not lawful for ciuill Magistrates to deuise formes of religion in destruction of the truth and so to reconcile truth and error that they may both be lulled asleepe They may not prescribe religions alone they must not ingender new articles of the faith they must not strangle the trueth with errors and shackle it when it is reueiled that they may let loose the bridle to corruption These be the points which they dislike and we be as farre from approuing any such thing in Princes as you or they Phi. If the Prince establish any religion whatsoeuer it be you must by your oth obey it Theo. We must not rebel and take armes against the prince
as you affirme you may but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince and that is nothing against our oth Phi. Then is not the Prince supreme Theo. Why so Phi. Your selues are superiour when you will serue whom you list Theo. As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue Phi. But you will be iudges when God is well serued and when not Theo. If you can excuse vs before God when you mislead vs we wil serue him as you shall appoint vs otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere and no man shall excuse him for Phi. This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion Theo. The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouernour of his owne hart Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries but not the consciences of men and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose Phi. By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne was the determination decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors of the true worship of God and the false attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures and no farther but to the Parliament absolutely decreeing at the same time that nothing there determined should be counted heresie errour or schisme what order decree sentence constitution or law so euer were to the contrarie the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted Theo. It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates that are so busie with the Princes Crowne And therein as in the former your behauiour doth not change For entring with a manifest vntrueth and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes which is your glorie you tell vs at length with pride enough that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth to mortall mens willes and fancies violent disorders which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke vniust and therefore bind not in conscience repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church against the oth of the makers and in deed no Lawes at all the makers lacking competent power authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare determine and define 〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall with a number of those bold and stately bragges hauing neither proofe of your part nor reproofe of ours but only pretending certain legalities quiddities solemnities of humane iudgements which in Gods cause be very ridiculous and in matters of faith more than superfluous For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons and when his word is offered we may not stand staggering till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good which I winne they wil neuer against themselues Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world the Prophetes that taught the people of God and reproued both Priests and Princes vsed no legall nor authenticall proceedings but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde beleeue The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and refourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale for the doing of that seruice and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets The Christian Princes take which you will that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation You may do well to correct S. Paul where he saith faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God and to adde faith commeth by iudiciall cognition and competent iurisdiction of such as haue legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth Phi. Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church that euery man should follow what he list Theo. I would not haue such presumption or wickednesse brought into the Church that Christ or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men for though the whole world pronounce against him or it God wil be true and all men shall be liars Phi. No more would wee Theo. Why then restraine you trueth to the assemblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ before he might attempt or shoulde expect to recouer his owne Phi. Wee would haue things done orderly Theo. Call you that order where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t◠bring him in Phi. God is not the author of confusion but of peace Theo. It is no confusion for one familie yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not Ioshua sayd to the whole people If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde choose you this day whome you will serue but I and myne house will serue the Lorde Elias was left alone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel and yet that abated not his zeale Micheas alone opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Prophetes with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would forsake them and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read Amos spared neither Ieroboam the King nor Amaziah the Priest and yet he was but a simple heardman and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet Iohn Baptist had no competent iurisdiction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre and yet hee condemned them for a generation of vipers The Councels where Peter Steuen Paul and other of the Disciples were conuented accused and punished lacked none of your iudiciall formalities and solemnities and yet the Apostles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue and their definitiue sentences In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question as also they did Iohn before him and the Apostles after him When the Lord was teaching in the temple the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde by what authoritie doest
them-selues venemous in saying ' Ye vipers brood and Steuen ful of the holy Ghost rated the Iewes on this wise Ye stifnecked and of vncircumcised harts and eares yee haue alwaies resisted the holy Ghost as your fathers did so doe you It is therefore a straunge course that you take to make the people disobey God to follow their fathers and a stranger that you freely permit all kinde of Infidelity and tyranny to your selues vnder the names of your fathers as if the men that were before you could neither erre nor shed innocent blood Phi. What they could we dispute not wee say they did not Theo. That must be proued before you may propose their actes for your imitation Their doings may bee doubted disliked as well as yours so the labor is all one to iustifie theirs and yours Times and persons do not preiudice the truth of God It is permanent in all ages eminent aboue all things If your fathers disdained and pursued the truth as you doe they were enimies to God as you are notwithstaÌ„ding their earthly dignities and other excellencies which may seem precious in your eies but are abominable in the sight of God when men are voide of truth Phi. We are not Theo. Leaue then your fathers and other idle fansies go directly to that question For if her Maiestie receiued established nothing but the truth of Christ in her Parliament in vaine do you barke against God and the Magistrate for lacke of competent Courts ecclesiasticall iudges and legal meanes to debate and decide matters of religion When God commaundeth all humane barres and Lawes do cease If they ioyne with God they may bee vsed if they impugne the trueth they must be despised And yet in our case the scepter vnited and adioyned it selfe to the worde of God and therefore if Princes may commaund for truth in their owne dominions as I haue largely proued they may why should not the Prince hauing the full consent of her Nobles and Commons restoare and settle the truth of God within her Realme Phi. Lay men may not pronounce of faith Theo. But lay men may choose what faith they will professe and Princes may dispose of their kingdoms though Priests and Bishops would say nay Phi. Religion they may not dispose without a Councell Theo. Not if God commaund Phi. Howe shall they know what God commaundeth vnlesse they haue a councell Theo. This is childish wrangling I aske if God command whether the Prince shall refuse to obey till the clergie confirme the same Phi. You may be sure a wise and sober Clergie wil not dissent from Gods precepts Theo. What they will doe is out of our matter but in case they doe to which shall the Prince hearken to God or those that beare themselues for Priestes Phi. In case they do so you neede not doubt but God must be regarded and not men Theo. And hath the Prince sufficient authoritie to put that in â—â—e which God commaundeth though the Priests continue their wilfulnes Phi. There is no councell nor consent of men good against God Theo. Holde you there Then when christian Princes are instructed and resolued by learned and faithfull teachers what God requireth at their hands what neede they care for the backward dispositioÌ„ of such false Prophets as are turned from the truth and preach lies Phi. In England when her Maiestie came to the Crowne it was not so The Bishops that dissented were graue vertuous and honorable Pastours standing in defence of the catholike and auncient faith of their fathers Theo. You say so we say no. Phi. Those be but wordes Theo. You say very right and therefore the more to blame you that in both your bookes do plaie on that string with your Rhetoricall and Thrasonicall fluence and neuer enter any point or prooâ—e that may profit your Reader You presume your selues to haue such apparent right and rule ouer the faith ouer the church ouer christian Princes Realmes that without your consent they shall neither conclude nor consult what religion they will professe Their actes shall be disorders their lawes iniuries their correction tyranny if you mislike them This dominion and iurisdiction ouer all kingdoms and countries if your holy father and you may haue for the speaking you were not wise if you would not claime it but before we beleeue you you must bring some better ground of your title than such magnifical and maiesticall florishes The Prince and the Parliament you say had no power to determine or deliberate of those matters And why so You did dissent May not the Prince commaund for truth within her Realme except your consentes be first required and had May not her highnesse serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ without your liking Claime you that interest and prerogatiue that without you nothing shal be done in matters of religioÌ„ by the lawes of God or by the liberties of this realm By the lawes of the Land you haue no such priuilege Parliamentes haue bin kept by the king and his Barons the clergie wholy excluded and yet their actes and statutes good And when the Bishops were present their voices froÌ„ the conquest to this day were neuer negatiue By Gody law you haue nothing to do with making lawes for kingdoms and commonwealthes You may teach you may not command Perswasion is your part compulsion is the Princes If Princes imbrace the truth you must obey them If they pursue truth you must abide them By what authority then claime you this dominion ouer Princes that their lawes for religion shal be voide vnlesse you consent Phi. They be no iudges of faith Theo. No more are you It is lawfull for any Christian to reiect your doctrine if he perceiue it to be false though you teach it in your churches and pronounce it in your councels to be neuer so true Phi. That proueth not euery priuat mans opinion to be true The. Nor yet to be false the greater number is not euer a sure warrant for truth And Iudges of faith though Princes be not yet are they maintainers establishers and vpholders of faith with publike power positiue lawes which is the pointe you now withstand Phi. That they may doe when a councell is precedent to guide them Theo. What councell had Asa the king of Iudah when hee commaunded his people to doe according to the law and the commaundement and made a couenant that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God of Israell should be â—laine Phi. He had Azariah the Prophet Theo. One man is no Councel and he did but encourage and commend the King and that long after he had established religion in his realme What Councel had Ezechiah to lead him when he restored the true worship of God throughout his land and was faine to send for the Priestes and Leuites and to put them in minde of their duties What councell had Iosiah
fastned on the Apostles and Churches of Christ against al trueth the legates of Adrian in this very Synode conuince of a manifest and mightie corruption in the wordes that be most materiall for your purpose Phi. Did the legates of Adrian contradict their masters allegation Theo. The same place being rehearsed by Demetrius a Notarie out of the booke it selfe which the legates of Rome offered in the councel sounded farre otherwise than Adrian had cited it For where Adrian in his letters alleaged Hoc enim traditum nobis ab Apostolis non est prohibendum This being deliuered vs by the Apostles must not be prohibited the booke which they read had Hoc enim nobis a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibitum this is not forbidden vs by the Apostles It is one thing to say The Apostles did deliuer it an other to say The Apostles did not prohibite it Betweene these two reports if you weigh them wâ—ll you shall finde good difference Phi. If you like not the former reading take the latter and that in sight is true For the Apostles in particular woordes did not prohibite the making and worshipping of holy Images Theo. They needed not God by his Lawe long before had doone it very sufficiently and that standing in full force there needed no newe prohibition since no authoritie coulde bee greater than his who had already forbidden it And yet by your leaue the Apostles did not onely propose the whole Lawe of God as holy iust and good but they namely touch the seconde precept which wee reason of Saint Paul confessing the Iewes did well according to the Lawe to abhorre Idoles and that the Gentiles were giuen ouer to their vile affections for turning the glorie of God to the Image of a man and S. Iohn requiring all christians to beware the like in sayâ—ng Babes keepe your selues from Idoles Phi. FroÌ„ idoles but not from images Theo. An Image made with hands if it be set vp to God himselfe worshipped is an idole as I haue proued therfore you must either renouÌ„ce your adoring of images which your forged Basil would establish or else suffer theÌ„ to stand for Idoles from which S. Iohn deterreth vs. Phi. S. Augustine saith it is not an Idole except it bâ— Dei falsi alieni simulachrum the image of a false strange God And in that respect you do the Images of Christ his Saints great wrong to call them idoles Theo. S. Augustine in that place disputeth how Gedeons Ephod should be said in the scripture to be fornication in the people the destruction of Gedeons house since it was as he thought no likenes of any thing against the lawe but an imitation of the Priests apparell prescribed in the Law And albeit to interprete himself what he ment when he said it was no idole he addeth by way of explicatioÌ„ that is no shape of any false or strange God yet doth he not limit the word to that continual vse but rather granteth as his conclusioÌ„ sheweth that there were mo kindes of Idoles that this though it were a garment in the law not an Image against the law yet was it in sort an Idole so his words import FactuÌ„ est Gedeon domini eius in scandolum quia hoc quoddaÌ„ genus Idoli quodaÌ„modo erat This was the ruine of Gedeon his house because it was in some sense a kind of idole Tertullian wil tel you the word is general noteth the likenes or shape of any thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 graecè formam sonat ab â—oper diminutionem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequé apud nos formulam fecit Igitur omnis forma vel formula Idolum se dici exposcit This word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke signifieth a shape whence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is deriued as a diminutiue and with vs signifieth any likenes therefore euery shape or likenes may wel bee called an Idole Isidor repeating Tertullians words as worth the noting addeth of his owne Idolum est simulachrum quod humana effigie factum consecratum est An Idole is an Image made after the shape of a man and dedicated vnto some religious vse Philand Nay dedicated vnto some false God and then it is rightly an Idole Theoph. But Isidore sayth generally that an image consecrated is an idole and consecration is the addicting of any thing to holy and diuine vses Phi. That is not Isidores meaning Theo. Those be Isidores words Phi. You heard S. Augustine say it must bee the Image of a false GOD. Theo. S. Augustine doth not tie the word to that signification as you heard by his owne confession and yet if you take false and straunge Gods as S. Augustine doeth your adoration of painted and carued Images will prooue them to bee false Christes and your selues to bee worshippers of false Goddes For if you worshippe Christ not after his will but after your conceite you woorshippe nowe not Christ but the fiction and imagination of your own heartes and that is a false Christ as Saint Augustine learnedly and truely teacheth Quisquis talem cogitat Deum qualis non est Deus alienum Deum vtique falsum in cogitatione portat Whosoeuer supposeth God to bee that hee is not beareth a straunge and false GOD in his cogitation This else-where hee calleth the Idole of the heart not onely in Pagans but also in Christians Of the false fansies that Pagans had of GOD hee sayth Prius id agimus vt Idola in eorum cordibus confringamus The first thing that wee labour is to breake downe those Idoles in their heartes Of the wrong imaginations of christians hee saith Quae omnia Idola cordis sunt all which are Idoles of the heart Phi. A false opinion of his essence is an Idole in the heart of man Theo. And so is a wrong perswasion of his will or woorship Hierom sayth Vsque hodie in domo Dei quae interpretatur ecclesia siue in corde animaque credentium ponitur Idolum quando nouum dogma constituitur Euen to this present day an Idole is set vp in the house of God which is interpreted to be the Church or else in the hearts and soules of the beleeuers when a newe point of Doctrine is deuised And therefore generally resolueth of all errors Quod omne dogma contrarium veritati adoret opera manuum suarum constituat Idola in terra sua that euery opinion repugnant to truth worshippeth the works of his own hands and erecteth an Idole in the land where it is By the workes of their owne hands hee meaneth the deuises of their hearts as else where he sheweth Haeretici perdito mentis iudicio adorant Idola quae de corde suo finxerunt Heretikes with their wicked resolution of mynd or else void of sense and feeling of mynde adore the Idoles which they haue framed in
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
determination of the second Nicene councell that images were louingly to be saluted imbraced kissed for so theÌ„selues expound the word AdoratioÌ„ which they vse was lesse pernicious than the former as tending rather to superstitious follie than to that sacrilegious impietie which after raigned in your schooles and yet that decision of theirs was nothing lesse than catholike no councell or father before them for the space of 790. yeares euer decreeing or defending any such thing in the church of God and the Bishops of England Germany France and Spaine forthwith contradicting confuting their presumption as vncatholike and your own schooles reuersing their assertion as voide of all truth for that no reasonlesse creature is capable of reuerence which yet that councell had allowed vnto images Painting of stories in the church is somwhat ancient but neither Apostâ—lik nor catholike It was receiued in some places vpon priuate mens affections as an ornament for their churches but vsed as altogither indifferent that is vrged on no man as a matter of religioÌ„ not only the whole church some huÌ„dreth yeares after Christ which yet was catholike wanted all such pictures but learned and godly Bishops without any suspition of eâ—rour or innouation traduced and repelled such paintings as things either superfluous or dangerous or both What accompt the councel of Eliberis Eusebius Epiphanius and Augustine made of pictures you heard before how Chrysostom Amphilochius Asterius and others esteemed them you may read in your owne books of Councels where the wicked superstitious vpholders of Images refute the CouÌ„cel of Constantinople but with shyfting lying most fit for the cause they tooke in hand To Epiphanius exhorting the Emperour not to bring Images into the Church no nor to tolerate them in priuate howsen adding this reason non enim fas est Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri sed per occupationem mentis it is not lawful for a ChristiaÌ„ to staÌ„d gazing with his eies but to haue his mind occupied they answer that this epistle was forged in Epiphanius name and that Epiphanius himself would neuer haue beene so bitter against Images The first is easilie sayd the second is falsely supposed without any proofe this epistle was auouched to be his in a Synod of 330. Bishops not loÌ„g before and Epiphanius is sharper against Images in his epistle to Iohn of HierusaleÌ„ which S. Hierom translated than he was in this which they disliked Eusebius dissuading the Empresse from regarding the painted Image of Christ with these words Quis igitur gloriae eiusmodi dignitatis splendores lucentes fulgurantes effigiare mortuis inanimatis coloribus vmbratili pictura posset who can resemble in deed and lifelesse colours with the shadow of a picture the shyning glittering brightnes of Christes glorie and dignitie is reiected as an heretike and condemned by those that liued many hundred yeres after him and were in credite or learning no way comparable to him Chrysostomes assertion Nos per scripta sanctorum fruimur praesentia non sane corporuÌ„ ipsoruÌ„ sed animaruÌ„ Imagines habentes we by writing enioy the presence of the sainctes not hauing any Images of their bodies but of their mindes Amphilochius protestation Non enim nobis sanctorum corporales vultus in tabulis coloribus effigiare curae est quoniam hijs opus non habemus we haue no care to resemble in colours the bodilie visages of the saincts because we haue no neede of them and Asterius admonition Ne pingas Christum in vestibus sed magis sumptu illo impensis pauperibus subueni paint not Christ in clothes or colours but rather relieue the poore with that expeÌ„ce charge they auoide as spoken by way of comparison not of illation as if meÌ„ in their comparisons did not speake truth affirme both partes as well as in their conclusions This was the skill esming of your late Nicene Synod to crie corruption on others when they themselues were most corrupt and with a shyft of words to decree that as Catholike which was repugnaÌ„t to the plaine precepts of God general iudgement of their forefathers in all ages and places before them For our parts we say with Origen Non igitur fieri id poterit vt Deum quis nouerit simulachris vt supplicet It can not be that a man should knowe God and bow him self to images and with Austen Let it be no Religion of ours to worship the workes of mens hands because the workmen that make them are the better of the twaine whom yet we may not worship The Law of God is so direct forbidding vs to bow to any Image similitude or likenes of any thing that no distinction can help you NotaÌ„da proprietas Deos coli ImagineÌ„ adorari quorum vtruÌ„que seruis Dei non conuenit Note sayth S. Hierom the proprietie of the speach Gods are worshipped Images are adored or bowed vnto whereof neither is fit for the seruants of God If you trust not the ancient fathers one of your own friends will tell you the same Non adorabis neque coles Inter quae distingue Non adorabis scilicet veneratio ne corporis vt inclinando eis vel genuslectendo Non coles scilicet affectione mentis Ad adorandum igitur colendum prohibitur Imagines fiers Thou shalt not adore them nor worship them Which are thus to be distiguished Thou shalt not adore them that is with any bodilie reuerence as bowing or kneeling to them Thou shalt not worship them with any deuotion of mind Images therefore are prohibited to bee either adored or worshipped Thus your owne fellowes were not so blind but they perceiued the strength and force of Gods commaundement to be such as we defend at this present against you And though he labor to shift off the matter with a rule of S. Augustine that the honor passeth from the signe to the thing signified yet he both missed himself and misconstred his author For S. Augustine in that place putteth a manifest bar against Images and precisely purposely excludeth them out of the number of signes which he meant to treat of when he gaue this rule His wordes are Qui veneratur vtile signum diuinitus institutum cuius vim significationemque intelligit non hoc veneratur quod videtur sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt He that reuerenceth a profitable signe ordayned by God the force and signification whereof he well vnderstandeth doth not renerence that which he seeth but rather that to which al such signes are to be referred This rule reacheth to no signes but to such as are ordained by Gods own institution which Images are not therefore are cleane without the coÌ„pas of S. Augustines speach Again the veneration here touched is not any worshipping or adoring the creatures which God vseth for signes but a
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
cut off al ambiguities we haue the plaine testimonie of Gregorie the great that the Church of Rome 600. yeres after Christ knew nothing of those constitutions and Church seruices which are now obtruded vnder the Apostles names Mos Apostolorum fuit vt ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dommicam oblationis hostiam consecraret This was saith he the maner of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrifice with saying no moe praiers but the Lords praier In vaine therefore doe you dreame of a settled forme of praier for the Lords supper where as the Apostles haue none but left that to the direction and disposition of the holy Ghost inspiring the ministers and elders in euery Church when the faithful were assembled to make their praiers vnto god with the people and to render him thankes for all his mercies as the spirite gaue them vtterance This Chrysostome calleth Precandi domum the miraculous gift of praiers whereof S. Paul speaketh in this place and Tertul. seemeth to meÌ„tion the same in his Apologie for the Christians as during in the Church vnto his time We saith he looking vp to heauen with our hands stretched out as being innocent bareheaded as not ashamed sine monitore quia de pectore oramus make our praiers without any prompter as comming from the free motion of our own harts Phi. Our arguments conuince that S. Paul spake not of the Churches seruice and till those be answered we cannot change our minds Theo. That which I haue alreadie saide openeth your error in mistaking or els peruerting the wordes of S. Paul choose you whether if that content you not repeate your reasons as they stand in rew that we may see their force Phi. It is euident the Corinthians had their Seruice in Greeke at this same time and â—t was not done in these miraculous toungs Nothing is ment then of the church seruice Theo. To vs it is out of question that the Corinthians had their publike prayers and exhortations in the Greeke tongue because the common people of that City vnderstood none other and the tongue which they vnderstoode not might not be vsed in the Church by S. Pauls rule but you that denie S. Paul to speak of the Church seruice in this place howe prooue you the Corinthians had their Seruice in the Greeke tongue Phi. Doe you thinke they had not Theo. For our parts as I tolde you we are resolued because S. Paul would neither haue preaching nor praying in the Church but such as might edifie addeth that an vnknown tongue profiteth nothing to edificatioÌ„ mary you are otherwise minded and therefore I see not howe you can proue that they had their seruice in the Greeke tongue which you affirme to be euident Phi. Had they their Seruice trow you in an vnknowne tongue Theo. In your opinion that is no such absurdity Phi. They could not vnderstand it except it were in Greeke Theo. This is contrary to your owne Principles For the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine as you told vs euen nowe were vnderstoode of the cyuill people in euery great Citie and were that vntrue as I know it is though you auouched it for an aduantage yet is it not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers as your selues defend in this your declaration vpon S. Paul and following the path that you leade vs in your Rhemish obseruations wee say you can not prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in the Greeke tongue Philand In what tongue else coulde they haue it Theoph. Rather in Hebrewe than in Greeke for that tongue was sacred and naturall to the Iewes who first spred the Gospel and planted the Churches Phi. The Apostle requireth the people shoulde vnderstande the prayers of the Church otherwise they reape no profite by them and to speake Hebrewe in the Church to them that vnderstood nothing but Greeke were no reason Theo. Are you there at host now Can you plea thus on both sides when you be vrged You are making inuincible arguments that the Apostle speaketh nothing in this place of the Churches seruice before you can iustifie the first proposition which you bring you bee faine to take hold of this very place to prooue the Corinthians had their Church seruice in Greeke Phi. Nay without this place it is euident they had their seruice in greeke The. Set this chapter aside and if you prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in Greeke at this very time when the Apostle wrate wee giue you the cause Phi. You be resolued they had and yet you put vs to prooue it as if it were in doubt Theo. I tel the reason It is euident they had their seruice in a knowen tongue by that which the Apostle here writeth otherwise it is not euident by any other proofe that you can make And since you will haue the Apostle to speake nothing of the Church Seruice in this chapter why shoulde wee not put you to prooue that which you lay for the ground of your misconstring Saint Pauls text Phi. A trueth it is what proofe soeuer may or may not be brought for it Theo. Let it stand for trueth what will you conclude Phi. Nothing is meant then of their Church Seruice Theo. Why so Phi. That was in Greeke and well vnderstood of all the people Theo. A worthy sequele As if it were not possible for some vaine men to disturbe the Church of Corinth notwithstanding the Apostle had left generall direction that al things should be doone in the church vnto edification The Lordes supper was rightly deliuered them was it therefore not abused by some amongst them The like say we for their praiers in the church No doubt Paul ordained at Corinth as he did in al other churches of the Saincts that the people should say Amen to euery blessing and thankesgiuing that was vsed in the Church Might not therfore some of their Elders and ministers to venditate themselues and the gift which they had of God sometimes blesse and make their praiers at the Lords table in a tongue not vnderstoode of the whole multitude Phi. Were they strangers or inhabitants Theo. It skilleth not whether they might bee either Phi. Inhabitants there would vse none other toung than their owne and strangers might not minister Sacramentes in other mens Churches Theo. Some of their own might be so vain glorious as in making their praiers at the Lordes table which was then doone by hart and not after any prescribed order or form to shew the gift of tongues which they receiued of the holy Ghost to an other end and not to commend them-selues without edifiing the hearer Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their Cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they traueled and such were according to their
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
one must keepe silence in the church and let them speake that may profite the hearers Idlely is that spoken which is not vnderstoode saith Cassiodorus Non solum cantantes sed etiam intelligentes Psallere debemus Nemo enim Sapienter quicquam facit quod non intelligit We ought to sing the psalms not only with tune of voice but also with vnderstanding of heart For no man doth any thing wifely which he vnderstandeth not The Bishops of Fraunce and Germanie assembled in Councel at Aquisgraine 816 yeres after Christ vnder Ludouike the Godly confesse the wordes of S. Paul bind vs to vnderstand the Psalmes which we sing in the Church Those that sing to the Lorde in his Church ought to haue their vnderstanding goe with their voice that the words of the Apostle may be verified I will sing with the spirit but I will also sing with vnderstanding And Let such be appointed in the Church to read sing that with the sweetnes of their reading and singing can affect the learned and instruct the vnlearned and let them seeke rather the edification of the people than the popular and vaine ostentation of their voices These Catholike fathers affirme the people ought to vnderstand the psalms and praiers of the church you say they need not Betweene these two doctrines there is asmuch difference as betweene daylight and darknes and yet you will be Catholiks whosoeuer say nay yea God himselfe commaundeth that neither exhortation nor supplication be made in the church but such as may edifie the hearers and bee vnderstood of the people you both doe and teach the contrary and yet you would be christians Phi. The simple sort can not vnderstand all Psalmes nor scarce the learned no though they be translated or read in knowen tongues men must not cease to vse them for all that when they are knowen to containe Gods holy praises Theo. Are you hired to betray your own follie or is the force of trueth so great that minding to conuince vs you confute your selues The simple vnderstand not all Psalmes nor scarce the learned wee thinke you speake right yet must not men cease to vse theÌ„ since they containe the prayses of God as true as the Gospell but now Sirs if the learned must vse them wheÌ„ they scarce vnderstand them why may not the simple heare them though they conceiue not al the mysteries of them Phi. As good not heare them as not vnderstand them Theo. All parts of the Psalmes they doe not vnderstand yet some they doe Why then doe you barre them from all since you dare not â—uouch them to bee ignorant of all Againe by continuall hearing them read alleaged and expounded in the Church they that are willing may easily increase their knowledge why then doe you cut the people not onely from that they knowe but also from that they might knowe from the meanes whereby to learne which is the high way to keepe them in ignorance the mother of all errors Phi. They will learne but litle God knoweth Theo. Graunt they would learne nothing yet are you bound to follow that meanes which God hath left to instruct them if their dulnes and peruersenes of heart be such that they will not learne the fault is theirs not yours their blood shal be on their own heads you are discharged where nowe by taking the comfort and instruction of their prayers from them you force them to neglect al as neuer likely to come by the knowledge of any one word and confirme them in their blindnes to your owne destruction and their imminent daunger if God bee not the more graâ—ious to them Phi. Prayers are not made to teache or increase knowledge but their speciall vse is to offer our heartes desires and wants to God and this euery catholike doeth for his condition whether hee vnderstande the woordes of his prayers or no. Theoph. Who tolde you that praiers are not made to teach or increase our knowledge The Psalmes of Dauid what are they but prayers and prayses offered vnto God and yet what Christian was euer so voyde of sense as to say they doe not teach nor increase knowledge or that they were not left vs to this ende and purpose that they shoulde teach and instruct vs in thinges pertaining to our saluation The prayers of the Godly throughout the scriptures though they were vttered in their wants and necessities yet were they written for our instruction And if you were not as destitute of grace as you be of truth you woulde soone perceiue that religious and Godly prayers doe mightily teach both learned vnlearned their dueties to God and his mercies to them Phi. In our prayers wee speake to God and not to men and that leadeth vs to â—ay they were not made to teach or increase knowledge Theo. The end of prayer in him that maketh it is to aske at Gods handes that he lacketh and to render thankes vnto God for that hee hath receiued but that the publike prayers of the Church do not first teach vs howe to pray and next instruct vs in many and most points of truth what to beleeue and confesse vnto God were meeter for Turkes and Infidels to defend than for such as you would seeme to be I meane both learned and Christian men Howbeit the pitch of our question is this whether they may be called prayers which wee make with our mouthes and not with our heartes and if they may not whether our heartes can pray without vnderstanding These be the matters that here we striue for and of these the first is prooued by the whole course of the Scriptures the seconde as well by the nature of man as by the word of God That God reiecteth the mouth without the heart as hypocrisie and no pietie our Sauiour telleth you when he saith O hypocrites Esay prophesied well of you in saying this people draweth neere to me with their mouth and honoureth me with the lippes but their heart is farre from me That our heart ioyneth not with our mouth when our vnderstanding wanteth is euident not onely by the scriptures which take the heart of man for his vnderstanding but by the education of our nature Dauid resembling those meÌ„ that haue not vnderstanding what they say or doe to the horse and Mule and â—usten allowing them when they pray they knowe not what no better place than among parrets and pies which is no place for men much lesse for those that would seeme to serue and honour God And what can be plainer than that vnderstanding is the proper action and first motion of mans heart which wanting in any thing that he doeth or sayeth his heart is also wanting since not an heart but an vnderstanding heart doeth make the difference betwixt man and beast Philand That is if they vnderstande not their owne woordes when they pray but they may bee ignorant of the
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
Primatiue church of Christ vsed and allowed all tongues as well barbarous as learned for the people to make their praiers in Phi. You say not trueth Theo. If I doe you knowe your reward You must be catholikes of the second edition when men began to fall from trueth to Apostasie For with the right and ancient faith of Christs church your Romish errours haue no fellowship Phi. And what haue yours that were neuer heard of before Luthers time Theo. Howe chaunceth then our doctrine is confirmed by the scriptures and witnessed in all the Fathers where yours is not Phi. Not ours Theo. Not yours Your praying in a tongue not vnderstood of the hearers your single and solitarie Masses where no man eateth besides the Priest your decurted communions where wanteth one halfe of Christes institution I aske not howe you proue these points to bee catholike that would trouble your braines too much but what one Father haue you for them lest you seeme to deriue your religion you know not from whom Catholike should haue al the Fathers we demaund you but one If you come short of that what hope caÌ„ you haue to recouer the rest Phi. The doubt is not of our faith but of yours you must shewe by what title you claime your church which was in our possession before you were borne Theo. The walles you had for those we striue not The faith which is the fouÌ„dation of the church you neuer had for that wee stand Phi. But who standeth with you besides your selues Theo. I haue told you the word of God and cleare consent of that church which you dare not deny to bee both ancient and catholike Phi. First then where is your antiquitie for praying in a barbarous tongue Theo. That which I haue saide might seeme sufficient you bringing against it neither reason nor authoritie but onely Pilates that put Christ to death Phi. That the people did vnderstand the prayers which were made in the church you shew some proofe but those we say were in Hebrew Greeke or Latine Marie that the primatiue church permitted any Nation to make their praiers in a barbarous tongue for that as yet I see no proofe Theo. Reuiew that which is already sayd and you shall find that not onely the people did sing the Psalmes and answere the praiers that were made in the church but also they were taught it was a point of their christian dutie so to do and that neither the Priests voice was needefull nor the prayer publike except the whole multitude did both coÌ„ceiue the meaning and confirme the blessing of their Pastour and Reader which in a strange tongue they can not therefore the conclusion is infallible that in the Primatiue church no tongue was vsed but such as the people vnderstood and in a barbarous nation of necessitie that must be a barbarous tongue Phi. But wee require some testimonie that a barbarous tongue was vsed in prayer for it may be that all the nations in the worlde vnderstood Hebrewe Greeke or Latine else why did Pilate set the title on our Sauiours crosse in those three tongues but that al nations might read it and that they could not except they vnderstood one of those three tongues which I coniecture they did Theo. A coniecture fit for the cause you haue in hand Pilate did not set vp the title for all the men women and children in the world to see or read as you suppose but for those that were gathered out of all Countries to Ierusalem at the time of his execution and that strangers as well as Iewes might knowe the cause why Christ was adiudged to dy the superscription was writteÌ„ in Hebrew Greeke and Latine without the knowledge of one of the which tongues no stranger vsed to frequent those countries least he should be forced as dombe meÌ„ are to worke with signes which in trauellers or ligers that haue any busines is meere madnes without some interpreter Had all men vnderstood one of those three toungs as you imagine what needed the holy Ghost to haue bestowed any moe tongues on the Apostles when they were sent to preach to al nations but the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine for the whole worlde as you say spake and vnderstood those three You may do well to controle the holy Ghost and with your monsterous and false surmise to say the gift of moe tongues than these three was not needefull And where is then the diuision of toungs which God inflicted on the Sonnes of men if the whole earth had recouered her selfe to be of three tongues Or how could any Nation bee barbarous if ech coulde naturally speake some one of the learned tongues Yea why might not the ofspring of Adam haue gotten from three tongues to one with more easie and quicker speede than from an infinite variety of tongues to three and so frustrate the iudgement and wisedome of God in confounding their speech Philand I doe not auouch it for a certaintie Theophil Looke better vnto it and you will reiect it not onely for an impossibilitie but euen for an impiety And yet were you so absurdly and wickedly bent you hurt not our assertion For wee can proue that the primatiue church allowed and vsed praiers by precise â—ermes in barbarous tongues Origen saieth The Grecians name God in the Greeke tongue the Romanes in the Latine singulâ—item natiua vernacula lingua Deum precantur laudibus pro se quisque extollâ—t and euery Nation in their natiue and mother tongue make their praiers to God and yeeld him his due praises S. Hierom describing the solemne funerall of Paula that died at Bethleem in Iurie saith Hebraeo Graeco Latino Syróque sermone psalmi in ordine personabant non solum triduo donec sâ—bter Ecclesiam iuxta specum Domini conderetur sed per omnem hebdomadam The Psalmes were sung by order in the Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tongue not onely those three dayes til shee was laid in earth within the church and neere to the sepulchre of our Sauior but that whole weeke And least you should thinke this order of singing in diuerse tongues was vsed but once commending the very same place for the great concourse of Nations farre and neere thither resorting and there leading their liues he maketh Paula then aliue giue this report to Marcella Quicunque in Gallia fuerit primus huc properat diuisus ab orbe nostro Britannus si in religione processerit dimisso sole occiduo quaerit locum fama tantum Scripturarum relatione notum Quid referamus Armenios quid Persas quid Indiae quid Aethiopum populos ipsamque iuxta Aegyptum fertilem Monachorum Pontum Cappadociam Syriam Caelen Mesopotamiam cunctáque orientis examina Vox quidem dissona sed vna religio tot pene Psallentium Chori quot Gentium diuersitates Whosoeuer is the chiefest in Fraunce hither he hasteneth The Britane
personages than those famous and woorthie Pastours that obserued this course in the Church of Christ many hundreths before you were borne and find it most expedient to continue your vnfruitfull manner of praying in a tongue not vnderstoode though the precept of God the Doctrine of the Apostle and the practise of the primatiue Church bee expressely against it O mouthes prepared to sticke at nothing that may any way serue to hoodwinke your hearers In this and many other points of your Religion you runne headlong against the cleare testimonies of the sacred Scriptures and generall consent of the Catholike fathers and yet you will be Catholikes Phi. You be very rife with your reproches Theo. I might iustly giue you some oftener remembrances but that I more respect the seemelynes of the cause which is Gods than the sinnefulnesse of your attempts who neglect Scriptures Fathers Councels Canons Church and all that is to followe the decrees you knowe not of whome and yet will haue it insolencie and madnes in vs to dispute of your actions Philand You doe but slaunder vs. Theoph. Wee haue hitherto slaundered you with matters of trueth if the rest prooue like wee shall doe you no wrong though wee fawne on you lesse Your Masse which this Realme hath nowe reiected what hath it in it either Catholike or Apostolike or any way concordable with Christes insâ—itution Philand You coulde neuer light on a woorse match Of all the rites obseruances and Sacraments which we haue none is more Apostolike more Catholike more conformable to Christes order and example than our Masse and your prophane Supper hath nothing agreeable to the Apostles or Christs institution but all cleane contrary yea your communion is the very table and cup of diuels and your Caluins bread and wine like at length to come to the sacrifice of Ceres and Bacchus Theo. Tie vp your doggish if not diuelish eloquence you shall haue no praise though you take some pride in broching these blasphemies Your poysonfull tongues and vnblushing faces may iniurie the ordinance of God but you can not ouerthrow his trueth If wee had deuised any thing of our owne braines as you haue done the most part of your Religion you would haue kindled I see to some choler that spare vs such speaches for following the very samplar original which Christ did institute as exactly as we possibly might Phi. You follow no part of Christes institution Theo. It is easie for your side to say what you list you were no right Friers if you coulde not speake for your selues but leaue your scoffes vaunts at home bring forth your proofs Phi. I wil beginne with the name and so proceede to the rest of the circumstances You haue smal reason to name the holy sacrament rather the Supper of the Lord than after the maner of the primatiue Church the Eucharist Masse or Liturgie But belike you would bring it to the supper againe or Euening seruice when men be not fasting the rather to take away the olde estimation of the holynes thereof The. If you leaue not so much as the name vntouched I hope you will not conceale any weightie matter of more importance Phi. You may sweare for that and keepe your othe Theo. Then if all your quarrels being discussed you bee found to haue vttered nothing against vs but your sharpe and eger stomackes and notwithstanding your vagaries and resaliries to and fro your Masse bee neither Catholike nor Apostolike deserue you not to beare backe your owne burden and to haue Bacchus Ceres and the rest of your infernall saints to the shrines whence you brought them Phi. When that falleth out which wil be neuer But you delay the time for feare you take the foyle Theo. If your arguments be as quicke as your appetites we shall soone dispatch but bring vs not drippings and say they be deinties Phi. S. Ambrose in hunc locum and most good authors nowe thinke this which the Apostle calleth Dominicam Caenam is not ment of the blessed Sacrament as the circumstances also of the text do giue namelie the reiecting of the poore the riche mens priuate deuouring of all not exspecting one an other gluttonie and drunkennes in the same which cannot agree to the holie Sacrament And therefore you haue small reason as I saide to name the saide holie Sacrament rather the Supper of the Lorde than after the manner of the primatiue Church the Eucharist Masse or Liturgie Theo. Malice bursteth out at your tongues endes when you cannot abide the woordes which wee vse though the Scriptures did first authorize them and the fathers for their partes continue them The Sacrament which the Lorde ordained at his last maundie hath sundrie names that wee finde authenticallie written in the worde of God as the Lordes table the breaking of bread and cup of thanksgiuing the Communion of the bodie and blood of Christ and as we thought till this time the Lordes Supper You beginne to tell vs S. Ambrose is of an other minde and bâ—caâ—se your holde in him was verie small you adde that the most of your selues also doe nowe so thinke A worshipful catch that fifteene hundreth yeres after Christ you come in with your owne verdict in your owne cause and looke to haue it currant Phi. We meane not our selues Theo. You can meane none but your selues or your fellowes For you saie most good Authors now thinke so of our side I am sure you will not agnise that anie be good authors as you call them or that the most of vs are of that opinion and therefore you meane your selues and your owne adherents who were you not partial yet are you too young to bid Augustine Hierome Chrysostome Theodorete and others rise from their chaiers and giue you place Augustine repeating the verie woordes of S. Paul when you come togither this is not to eate the Lords supper saith hanc ipsam acceptionem Eucharistiae Dominicam Caenam vocat the Apostle calleth this verie receiuing of the Eucharist the Lords Supper Hierome commenting vpon the same wordes when you come togither this is not to eate the Lords Supper addeth Now is it not the Lordes Supper as you vse it but mans in as much as you seeme to meete rather to fill your bellies than for the mysterie For the Lordes Supper ought to be common to all because he deliuered the Sacramentes equallie to all his Disciples that were present And a Supper therefore it is called for that the Lord at Supper deliuered the Sacraments Chrysostome affirmeth the same The Apostle toucheth them more dreadfullie with these wordes This is not to eate the Lordes Supper sending them to that night in which Christ deliuered the wonderfull mysteries Therefore he calleth it a Supper for that Supper had all that were present sitting togither in common that is at one time and in one place * As
that water is no necessarie part of this Sacrament The Gospell in plaine spéech reporteth of our Sauiour that he dranke the fruit of the vine His owne words are I say vnto you I will not drinke henceforth of this fruit of the vine which surely saith Chrysostom yeeldeth wine and not water Your owne Schooles conclude flatly with vs against you Non est aqua vino miscenda de necessitate Sacramenti To mingle water with wine is no necessarie point of this Sacrament Water by the position of your owne Schooles is not necessary then of consequent arbitrary that is euery church hath ful liberty to vse wine alone as Christ did with out danger of departing or dissenting frō the primatiue church though they for some respects delaied their wine with water and the Sacrament is as perfect and as consonant to Christs institution without the mixture of water as with it Phi. That Christ vsed wine we do not deny but we auouch that he also mingled it with water Theo. We knowe you auouch it but we would sée you proue it Phi. Cyprian saith it Theo. Cyprian saith it not he saith rather the contrarie Inuenimus vinum fuisse quod sanguinem suum dixit We finde it was wine which the Lord called his blood And againe Cum dicat Christus ego sum vitis vera sanguis Christi non aqua est vtique sed vinum Wheras Christ saith I am a true vine surely the blood of Christ is not water but wine And againe he saith that Noë typum futurae veritatis ostendens non aquam sed vinum biberit foreshewing a figure of the truth that should follow dranke not water but wine Phi. Not water alone but mixed with wine Theo. Then all that Cyprian either pretendeth or alledgeth Christ institution for is the hauing of wine not of water and though he vse the words mixtus and miscere very often yet his meaning is to proue by scripture the adding of wine not of water to the Lords cup. Phi. He nameth both wine water as I haue shewed you Theo. And as I haue answered you both were lawful and then vsed in the church but Christs institution is vrged by him for wine and not for water and though he call the cup mixtus mingled because there might be and were then both in vse yet the scriptures which he citeth concerning this Sacrament and the figures which he bringeth make cléerely for wine and not for water And therefore that Christ mingled water at his last Supper or commanded vs so to doe can not be prooued by Cyprian nor any other learned and ancient father but that the church of Christ tempered her wine with water though not in all places nor at all times as your boasting vaine serueth you to affirme that we grant may be proued by Cyprian and others and was euer confessed by vs mary that is not our question You charge vs with the breaches of Christs institutiō in which and in euery part of which there is an absolute necessitie that you should proue if you could tell which way to do it but your loftie words and weake proofes haue no coherence you speake it in state as if it were more than Gospell and when you come to bring foorth your proofes you wrest a poore place of Cyprians and so take your leaues Phil. We bring you S. Iames Masse which in expresse termes affirmeth that Christ after Supper taking the cup and mingling it with wine water sanctified it blessed it and gaue it to his Disciples Theop. Of Iames Masse I haue spoken before In such rotten records neither receiued nor regarded in the Church of Christ till errour and ignorance grew so great that the Pastours could not or would not discerne fables from truths and forgeries from sincerities lieth the summe of your late Rhemish religion but take back your Monkish corruptions and let vs haue likely testimonies for that you say or none you may alleage S. Iames Gospell which is yet extant with as good credit as S. Iames Masse and so the Gospels of Nicodemus Thomas Andrew Barnabas and Bartholomew or if those like you not the Acts of Peter Philip and Andrew and the Reuelations of Paul Steuen and Thomas for these be of the very same mint and stamp that Iames Masse and the Apostles canons and constitutions are but knowe you Sir that as Heretikes and other idle persons forged these things in their names so the Church of Christ euer reiected them as false and hereticall and suffered no christians to ground their actions or doctrines on such corruptiōs Phil. Sainct Basils Masse confirmeth the same The words are Likewise taking the cup of the fruite of the grape mingling it giuing thanks and blessing and sanctifieng it he gaue it to his holy Disciples Theoph. A pigge of the same sow They that would offer to broach their fansies in the Apostles names would neuer sticke at the Fathers works It is easie to put Ambrose Austens Basils and Chrysostoms names to any thing and yet the word which is vsed in Basils Liturgie doth not conuince the mingling of water with wine and Chrysostoms Liturgie doth apparently shew that water was mingled with wine for the people long after consecration and yet before distribution which argueth my saying to be most true that they delaied their wine for sobrietie they did not mixe it for any mysterie Phil. Sainct Basill I am sure saith Miscens Christ mingling the wine gaue it to his disciples Theo. The Gréek words for miscens mixtus if they come from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do not alwaies signifie the mingling of water with wine but generally the tempering or pouring out of wine for him that shall drinke though none other kind of liquour be added to it Erasmus giueth that obseruation vpon the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Sainct Iohn so vseth it whē he sayeth He shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is mixed or poured without mingling into the cup of his wrath where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being without mixture is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is mingled or rather infused into the cup of Gods wrath Upon which spéech Erasmus noteth Graecis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicitur quod infunditur in calicem bibituro etiamsi non aqua diluatur aut alio potus genere The Grecians call that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when any thing is powred into a cup for him that shall drinke though it be not delaied with water or any other kind of liquour In this sense manie of the Fathers that wrate in Gréeke may vse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and yet no mingling with water can be inferred vpon those words as your interpreters ouer gréedily imagine Phil. You pare the words of Saint Basils Liturgie but Saint Iames Masse is so
proper earthly substance when notwithstanding your selues offer thē to God in your masses for the remissiō of your sins redēption of your soules to profit the quick the dead by that oblation You teach the people that nothing is offred by the priest to god the father for remission of sins but Christ his son Your masse where this should be done conuinceth that you sacrifice not Christ but the creatures of bread wine Be you not more thā blind which see not that the praiers which you daily frequent refute the sacrifice which you falsly pretend Phi. As though the ancient fathers did not also say that Christ himself is daily offred in the church Theo. Not in the substance which is your error but in signification which is their doctrine ours Take their interpretation with their words they make nothing for your local external offring of christ Was not Christ saith Austen once sacrificed in himselfe and yet in a sacrament is he offered for the benefite of the people not euery Paschal feast only but euery day Neither doth he lie that whē the questiō is asked him answereth Christ is offred daily For if Sacraments had not a certain similitude of the things wherof they be sacraments they should be no Sacraments at al. And by reason of this similitude they vsually take the names of the things them-selues Christ is offred daily this is true saith Austen but how The communion is a sacrament of the Lords death sacraments haue the names of the things them selues from a certaine resemblance that is betwene them This doctrine differeth much from yours and yet must Austen stand for a christian and Catholike father when you by your patience shall goe for vpstarts Phi. S. Augustine spake this not of the liuely flesh blood of Christ which we sacrifice to god the father by the priests hands for the sins necessities of mē but of his death passiō represented at our masse by the holy mysteries The. In deed S. Augustin spake of that he knew as for your cōceit of sacrificing the liuely flesh blood of Christ in substance vnder the formes of bread wine by the priests hands neither he nor any good author was euer acquainted with it And to say the truth the very spring roote of your error is this that you seek for a sacrifice in the Lords supper besides the Lords death Marke wel the words of Cyprian The passion of the Lord is the sacrifice which we offer Of Ambrose Our high priest is he that offred on the crosse a sacrifice to clense vs the very same we offer now which being then offred cannot be consumed this Sacrifice is a sāplar of that we offer that very sacrifice for euer Of Eusebius Christ after al things ended offred a wōderful oblation most excellent sacrifice on the crosse for the saluation of vs al gaue vs a memorie therof in stead of a sacrifice we therfore offer the remēbrance of that great sacrifice in the mysteries which he deliuered vs. Of Chrysost. Bringing these mysteries we stop the mouthes of those that aske how we proue that Christ was sacrificed on the crosse For if Iesus were not slaine whose signe and token is this sacrifice Of Austen We sacrifice to God in that only manner in which he commanded we should offer to him at the reuealing of the new Testament the flesh and blood of this sacrifice was yeelded in verie trueth when Christ was put to death after his ascention it is now solemnized by a Sacramēt of memorie The verie elements and actions of the Lordes Supper conuince no lesse The bread which we breake what else doth it represent but the Lordes bodie that was broken for vs The cup which we drinke what els doth it resemble saue the Lordes blood that was shed for our sakes When the host is broken and the blood poured out of the cup into the mouthes of the faithfull what other thing saith Prosper is thereby designed than the offering of the Lordes bodie on the crosse and the shedding of his blood from his side As often as you shall eate this bread and drinke of this cup you shewe forth the Lordes death till he come saith Paul There can be no question of this the spirit of god hath spoken it Then if the death of Christ be the sacrifice which the church offreth it is euident that christ is not only sacrificed at this table but also crucified crucified in that selfe same sort sense that he is sacrificed but no man is so mad as to defēd that christ is really put to death in these mysteries ergo neither is he really sacrificed vnder the formes of bread wine which thing your selues haue lately ventered rashly presumed without al antiquity The catholik fathers I can assure you say christ is offered christ is crucified in the Lords supper indifferently So Ierom Christ is euery day crucified to vs. So Chrysostom The death of christ is here performed So Gregory Christ dieth againe in this mysterie his flesh suffreth for the saluation of the people so to conclude Austen The gētiles now through the whole world tast lick the passion of Christ in the sacraments of his body blood If you can expound this you shall not neede to stagger at the rest The church hath no Sacrifice propiciatorie besides the death of her Sauiour and therefore as she doth kill him so she doth offer him in her mysteries If you can not learne by the direction of your own decrees what doctrin was taught in the primatiue church and euen in your own church for 1300. yeres touching this matter The offering of the Lords flesh by the Priests hands is called the passion death and crucifying of Christ Non rei veritate sed significante mysterio Not in precise truth but in a mystical signification or it your gloze delight you rather In this mysterie Christ dieth that is his death is represented his flesh suffereth that is his passion is represented In this very sense Christ is offred daily Chrysostom Do we not offer euery day we do but a memorial of his death We do not offer an other sacrifice but euer the same or rather we continue the remembrance of that sacrifice Ambrose Because we were deliuered by the Lords death we bearing that in mynd do signifie with eating and drinking the flesh and blood that were offred for vs It is a memorial of our redemption Eusebius Christ offered a wonderful sacrifice for the saluatiō of vs al we haue receiued a memorial of that most sacred oblation to be performed at the Lordes table according to the rule of the new testament Augustin Christ is our high priest after the order of Melchisedec which yeelded himself a slain sacrifice for our sinnes and gaue vs a
name than the body and blood of Christ not that in earthly matter or essence they be really conuerted into those diuine things as you falsely gather but for that remaining in their former vsual both nature and substance they haue in them cary with them the fruite effect and force of Christs flesh wounded blood shed for the remission of our sinnes And because the people shoulde regarde not the creatures which they see but the graces which they beleeue therefore the Fathers euery where without exception call the elements by the names of the inwarde and heauenly vertues that are annexed to them and conferred with them by the trueth of his word power of his spirit This is the first rule which you should haue obserued The next is that whensoeuer they teach and propose the dignitie proprietie or efficacie of the Sacrament they meane not the creatures which our eies and tasts doe better iudge of than their tongues or wittes can teach vs but that other diuine lyfe-giuing and soule-sauing part of the sacrament which our heartes by fayth take holde on and possesse more really and effectually than if it were chammed in our mouthes or buried in our stomackes as you grossely conceiue of those thinges which bee most high and heauenly These two Rules remembred a very meane scholer may soone discharge the burden of all your allegations For either you mistake the one part for the other supposing that to bee corporall which in deede is spirituall or else you vrge the name which the signe beareth for similitude as â—arnâ—stily to all intents as 〈◊〉 were were the thing it selfe which causeth you to 〈◊〉 so many texâ—es and to straie so farre from trueth that no sound can recall you Phi. Away with your new found obseruations The catholike church hath the spirit of trueth promised for her direction and therefore the wil none of your wise inuentions to qualifie the fathers speeches Learne you rather at her handes to beleeue the wordes of Christ who first appointed this Sacrament and pronounced it to be himselfe without signe or figure when he saide this is my body and this is my blood not spirituall or metaphoricall but the same body which was broken and the same blood which was shed for remissioâ— of sinnes and that I trust you will confesse was his naturall and locall hath body and blood Theo. The question is not whether that were his naturall body which suffered on the crosse but when hee saide of the bread this is my bodie whether he substantially changed the dead element into himselfe made the creature become the creator or whether he annexed his trueth to the signe and grace to the Sacrament which required both the word of Christ to make the promise and his power to perfourme the speech And therefore we beleeue and acknowledge the wordes of our Sauiour to bee very needeful in ordaining this Sacrament euen in such manner and order as they were spoken that the signes might haue the fruites and effectes of his body and blood But that hee chaunged substances with the bread and wine or deified the creatures that his speech doth not inferre and that as yet we doe not beleeue except you can shewe vs howe the fleshe of Christ which was first made of a woman is nowe become to be made of bread and a dead and senslesse creature exalted to bee the son of God Phi. We do not say the bread is substantially conuerted into Christ or made the sonne of God but the bread is abolished in the place thereof commeth the glorious flesh of our Lord and Sauiour who is the Sonne of God And in that sense we hold the creator is now where the creature was but the dead element is not made the Sonne of God you woulde faine catch vs at such an aduantage Theo. How you can auoide it I yet perceiue not for if the bread bee nowe Christ which before it was not ergo the bread is made Christ and by consequent a dead element is nowe become or made the Sonne of God which I thinke will hardly stand with the very first groundes of Christian religion Phi. You presse the letter against both reason and trueth For the one is sayd to be conuerted or chaunged into the other because the one displaceth and succeedeth the other so is it a chaunge rather of the one for the other than a conuersion of the one into the other if you take conuersion properly as the Philosophers do Theo. Christ dâ—eth not say where the bread was there is nowe my body but this bread is my body And since before consecration it was not his body and now by repeating the wordes is become his body the conclusion is euident that by your opinion the bread is made Christ and so become the sonne of God Phi. You thinke to snare vs with schoole-trickes but setting your sophismes aside we plainly beleeue the Sacrament is Christ. Theo. You must beleeue the bread is Christ which as yet the Articles of our Creede will not suffer vs to doe I meane not to thinke that a dead and dumbe creature may bee God Phi. Do we say the bread is God Theo. You must auerre it if you stick to the letter of Christs words for he said of the bread as you inforce it this is my selfe now he was God Phi. I thought I should be euen with you at Landes end Christ did not say this bread is my bodie but this is my bodie where now is the force of your argument Theo. Euen where it was Phi. Why Christ sayd this is not meaning bread or any other creature Theo. That this must be somwhat else nothing was the body of Christ so you loose not only the bread but also the body Phi. Nay he said this is and that must needs be somwhat it can not be nothing Theo. It is well you haue found it I said so before you Then this is my body What this Was it bread that he spake of or somthing else Phi. He spake of that which he had in his hands Theo. You meane not long before Phi. In deede you say he had at that present when he spake the wordes nothing in his handes and so you would haue nothing to be his body Theo. Hinder not our course with matter impertinent to this place The demonstratiue THIS noteth that which Christ then gaue to his Disciples as wel as that which you thinke he then held in his hands Choose whether you wil of force the thing must be all one For that which hee helde that he gaue and of that which he first helde and after gaue hee saide this is my body Phi. He did so Theo. What was it Phi. Somwhat it was whatsoeuer it was Theo. What somwhat do you say it was Phi. What if I cannot tell Theo. Then must you seeke farther for your chaunging of substances The words of
my way Phi. Al these fathers affirme the bread to be a signe figure of Christs body This we grant and thereto adde that it is both a figure and the trueth it selfe You may be gone you haue your errand Did I not tell you I would soone dispatch you Theo. You be very pleasureable whatsoeuer the matter be but had you no better skill to dispatch men of their liues than you haue to defeate vs of ouâ— authorities many a thowsand should now liue that you haue slaine Philan. You would runne to by-quarrels but I must hold you to the stake Theo. In deede that was alwayes the surest answere that you gaue vs. The rest was nothing no more is this For first it is apparently false that in Sacraments the signe the truth may be all one thing Next if that might be yet doth it not disappoint any one of these testimonies For they do not only witnes that the bread is a sign of christs bodie but also that christes wordes were figuratiue and that in deliuering the mysteries he called the bread his body by way of signification similitude representation after the maner of Sacramentes in a signe not according to the letter but in a spirituall and mysticall vnderstanding and if you respect the precise speech improperly and figuratiuely And though the signe might happily be one thing with the truth it self as you affirm wtout al truth yet may not a figuratiue speech be properly takeÌ„ nor the letter vrged against the spirituall meaning least that which was spoken to quicken the inward man subuert the faith and indanger the soul which in mistaking a figure of speech must needs insue as S. Augustine sheweth In principio cauendum est ne siguratam locutionem ad literam accipias Ad hoc enim pertinet quod ait Apostolus litera occidit spiritus autem viuificat Cum enim figurate dictum sic accipitur tanquam proprie dictum sit carnaliter sapitur Neque vllamors animae congruentius appellatur The first thing that you must beware is this that you take not a figuratiue speech according to the letter To that belongeth the Apostles admonition the letter killeth the spirite quickneth For when wee take that which is figuratiuely spoken as if it were properly spoken it is a carnall sense Neither is there any thing more rightly called the death of the soule In vaine then doe you thinke to shift off the matter with this foolish conceite that one and the same thing may be both a trueth and a figure For were that so yet can not a figuratiue speech bee literally taken without killing the soule and the Fathers which I produced affirme the minde and speech of our Sauiour in calling the bread his body was spirituall figuratiue and mysticall by way of signification such as is vsed in Sacramentes not literall nor carnall according to the strict sâ—und and order of the wordes Marie now your answere besides that it is altogether idle is vtterly false For in this sacrament as in al others there is great difference betwixt the signes and the things theÌ„selues and the distinct properties of ech are so sensible that if your wits be not laid vp for holy daies you can not but perceiue theÌ„ The signes are visible the things inuisible the signes are earthly the things heaueÌ„ly the signes corruptible the thinges immortall the signes corporall the thinges spirituall The signes are one thing the trueth is not the same but an other thing and euen by plaine Arythmetike they be two things and not one The Eucharist as Ireneus teacheth Consisteth of two things an earthly an heauenly This is it that wee say this is it that we seeke by all meanes saith Austen to approue to wit that the sacrifice of the church is made of two and consisteth of two thinges sacramento re sacramenti of the sacred signe and the thing it selfe For sacramentes are signa rerum aliud existentia aliud significantia signes of truthes being one thing in themselues and signifieng an other It were no figure saith Chrysostome if all thinges incident to the truth were to be found in it much lesse if it were the truth it selfe Sacraments haue a certaine similitude but no identitie with the thinges whose signes they be If therefore To take the signes for the thinges bee a miserable seruitude of the soule as Austen noteth what is it to affirme the signes to be the things themselues but a wilfull blindnesse of heart choosing rather to rush into any brake with daunger both of credit and conscience than to acknowledge the truth once disdayned and refused Phi. I haue yet an other answere in stoare Theo. If that be no better than this your stoare is little worth Phi. The most part of the Fathers which you bring speake not of Christes wordes when hee did institute the Sacrament but declare his meaning in the sixth of Sainct Iohns Gospell when the Capernites stumbled at his doctrine Theo. You may keepe this still in stoare for the goodnes of it Tertullian Austen Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Chrysostom Theodorete Prosper Bede Bertram Druthmarus and your own law speake directly of the sacrament and so doth Origen when he calleth the bread on the Lords table the typicall and figuratiue body onely that place of his mentioneth the sixt of Iohn where he saith If you take this saying according to the letter this letter killeth Phi. Mary Sir that place is the chiefest how closely you could conuey it in amongest the rest to make men beleeue he spake that of the sacrament which is nothing so Theo. Why doth not the 6. of S. Iohn foretel and declare the same kinde of eating Christs flesh and drinking his bloode which was after perfourmed by Christ at his last supper wheÌ„ he said This is my body this is my blood Phi. Doth it say you Theo. I do not say Christ speaketh in the sixth of Iohn of the materiall elementes of bread and wine which were then first ordained to bee pledges of his inuisible graces when the Supper was first instituted and therefore not spoken of before that time but this is it which I affirme and in this the learned and auncient Fathers agree with mee that where this mystery consisteth of two partes an earthlie matter and an heauenly vertue the sixth of Sainct Iohn treateth not of the signes but of the thinges them-selues not of the figures representing but of the trueth represented not of that which is corporally proposed but of that which is Ghostly receiued in the Lordes supper which is the better and diuiner part of this Sacrament and that the Disciples there learned in what sort themselues and all the faithfull after them should eate the Lords flesh and drinke the Lords blood at his table to be thereby quickned norished and incorporated with him as members of his mysticall body So that if any
by their own words to teach more than idle signes or ONLY figures in the Lords supper because together with the name goe the vertâ—es and effects of Christes flesh bloud vnited in manner of a Sacrament to the visible signes And this their assertion neither troubleth our Doctrine nor strengthneth your error Againe these writers may very well say the Sacraments of the Gospell BE NO FIGVRES but TRVETH IT SELFE in that respect as figures bee taken for samplers of things to come Such were the figures of the law which did premonstrat the coÌ„ming of christ in flesh ceased at his coÌ„ming And so the mysteries of the Lords table were not figures of things expected but euidences of the truth there sitting in persoÌ„ the next day to be nailed to the crosse therby to fulfil abolish al figures our sacrameÌ„ts are now not signes of farther promises but memorials of his mercies alredy performed Do this saith christ not in figure of an other truth to come but in remeÌ„brance of me which am come for memorie you know stretcheth only to things past and doone and in this sense the letter may bee safely pressed and your carnall conueyance nothing relieued I find a third cause that might induce them to force the letter in this sort yet no way confirming your grosse supposall which is this When the Greeke church fell at variance for Images they which held that Christ ought not to be figured after the likenes of our bodies amongest other reasons alleadged this for one that the Lord at his Supper for a true and effectuall Image of his incarnation chose the whole substance of bread not any way like the proportion of a man lest it should occasion Idolatry The defenders of Images whose side Damascene tooke pressed with this obiection durst not flee to your annihilation of the substance of bread and adoration of the Sacrament with diuine honour which no doubt they would haue doone with great triumph had those two points of your Doctrine beene then counted catholike but yeelding and by their silence confessing that the substance of bread remayned in the supper and was not adored for so the contrarie part opposed at length for very pure neede came to this shift that the mysticall bread was not ordained to resemble and figure Christs humane nature nor so called by christ at his maundie who said not this is a figure of my body but my body nor a figure of my bloud but my bloud and when Basil and Eustathius were produced affirming the bread and wine to be figures and resemblances of Christs flesh and bloud the Patrones of Images replied that was spoken alwaies before neuer after consecration Wherefore Damascene first beganne this myncing and straining the wordes of Christ not to build on them any reall or corporall conuersion of the bread into the flesh of christ but in fauour of his artifical pictures and Images he could by no meanes abide that the mysteries should after consecration be called Images and figures of Christs bodie The next that traced this path after Damascene was Epiphanius not that auncient and learned Bishoppe of Cyprus but a pratling Deacon in the bastard Councell of Nice whose furious and fanaticall answer to the Councel of Constantinople that made this obiection declareth more tongue than witte more face than learning Christ did not say take ye eat ye the Image of my bodie Reade whiles thou wilt saith hee thou shalt neuer find that either the Lord or his Apostles or the Fathers called that vnbloudie Sacrifice which the Priest offereth AN IMAGE Thus doth he braie foorth defiance to the whole worlde without trueth without shame For Chrysostome saith If Iesus were not once dead whose image and signe is this Sacrifice This Sacrifice is an image and samplar of that Sacrifice And Gelasius Surely the IMAGE and resemblance of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries We must therefore so thinke of the Lord Christ himselfe as we professe and obserue in his IMAGE And likewise Theodoret. Ortho. The mysticall signes which are offered to god by his Priests whereof doest thou call them signes Eranist Of the body blood of the Lord. Ortho It is very well saide Conferre then the image with the paterne and thou shalt see the likenes Dionysius calleth it both an image and a figuratiue sacrifice Nazianzene excusing himselfe How should I saith he presume to offer vnto God that externall sacrifice the image of the great mysteries Clemens Offer you in your churches the image of the royall body of Christ. Macarius In the Church are offered breade and wine the images of his flesh and blood The 〈◊〉 â—aâ—hers keepe the same word the same sense Ambrose In the law was a shadow in the Gospel is an image in heauen is the trueth Before was offered a lambe or a calf now Christ is offred here in an image there in truth where he intreateth his father as an aduocate for vs. AusteÌ„ Christ gaue an image of his burnt offering to be celebrated in the church for a remembrance of his passion The rest say the like but what neede we farther refutation of so ridiculous and vnshamefast a bragge such causes such councels such poppets such Proctors The very children in the church of God knowe that the diuine mysteries by the generall definition of a Sacrament be visible signes of inuisible graces and as Augustine interpreteth the word Sacramentum id est sacrum signum a Sacrament that is a sacred signe So that vnlesse they be signes they can possibly be no sacraments neither sacraments nor signes can they be without or before coÌ„secration which this stout champion had not yet learned therfore his verdict in matters of religion except his cunning were greater may be wel refused As Damasene and your prating Epiphanius were more than 700. yeares after Christ so Theophilact and Euthymius are farre younger The first of them was Bishoppe of the Bulgarians who were conuerted to the faâ—eth 868. yeares after Christ the second your owne chronologie placeth after Gracian and Lombard 1100. yeares short of Christ. Were then these later Grecians wholy with you what gaine you by them If you woulde oppose them to Tertullian Origen Cyprian Austen Gelasius Thedorete others of purer times and sounder iudgements you could winne nothing by that bargaine the choice were soone made which to take which to leaue but in deede you do them wrong to returne them for transsubstantiators they neuer knew what it ment They say the mysteries of the Lords table be not only figures but haue the truth annexed No figures of grace differed but seales of mercy perfourmed in Christ and inioyed of vs no called figures or images of Christes flesh after consecration but bearing as well the names as the fruits and effects of the things themselues whose
example without warrant of God or man Phi. Theodoret hath set you vppe in your Ruffe but I would you knew it in this case we care neither for Theodoret nor you if that were his opinion as it is yours Theo. And who hath put you into your ruffe that you not only despise that learned and auncient Bishoppe but the whole Church in him which then so beleeued and you cannot auoide at this day except you will bee Eutichians Phi. The Maior is not altogether so sâ—und as you thinke it Theo. Yet did Gelasius and Theodoret confound that error with that comparison and S. Augustine long before thâ—m did vrge the same This is it that wee say this is it that by all meanes we labour to confirme to witte that the Sacrifice of the Church consisteth of two things the visible kinde of elementes and the inuisible flesh and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ the Sacrament and the thing of the SACRAMENT euen as the person of Christ consisteth of God and man for so much as euery thing containeth the nature and trueth of those things of which it consisteth By which rule it is certaine there musâ— be in the sacrament the nature truâ—th and substance of bread and wine euen as in Christes person either nature hath his trueth and substance without confusion or distraction Phi. We haue fathers to the contrary if the time did serue to produce them as anon I will In the meane while what is this to Leo Theophil Leo in few words abbridgeth the sumâ— of this reason and saith the followers of Eutiches doe in vaine with their mouthes receâ—ne the Sacrament since with their hartes they doe not beleeue the tâ—ueth of Christs humane nature and answer AmeÌ„ to no purpose so long as they dispute against that which they would seâ—m to enioye by receiuing the seale and pledge thereof in the church with others Phi. This is your Commentarie besâ—des the text his wordes are The selfe same bodie which wee beleeue with faith is receiued with mouth Which you cannot interprete to be mâ—ant of the bread For the breade is not beleeued with hart and against the trueth of Christs bodie not against the bread did the followers of Eutiches dispute Theo. Doth Leo â—aie the selâ— same bodie Phi. He saith Hoc ore sumitur quod fide creditur that is receiued with the mouth which with our faith is beleeued and that cannot be the bread The. Much lesse maie it be the natural bodie of Christ. For then Leo had mightilie confirmed not confuted Eutiches opinion His error was that the humanitie of christ after his ascension was swallowed vp of his diuinitie and so changed that it was now no naturall bodie Against this if Leo should haue opposâ—d your reall presence in the Sacrament where Christs body is without quantity shape circumscription distinction of partes and all other conditions of a naturall body he had beene a Proctour â—or Eutiches impiety not a confuter of it Neither could Eutiches himsâ—lfe haue wished a better defence for his heresie than the confessâ—on â—f such a bodâ—e as you imagine in the sacrament and therfore you haâ—k that HOC ilfauouredly when you make Leo rather a consenter with Eutiches than a disprouer of him with your fantasticall presence which is an approbation and no refutation of Eutiches error Phil. What a slander this is that the reall presence should be a refuge for Eutichâ—s error Theoph. Such a slaunder as with all your cunning you shall neuer wipe awaie Phi. Doe we not affirme the substance of Chrisâ—es humane flesh to be in the Sacrament The. Such a substance as Eutiches him selfe imagined hauing neither proportion of shape nor position of parts nor repletion of place nor anie condition incident to a naturall bodie but the godly fathers were farre from vrging such a substance against Eutiches They pressed him with the bodilie shape circumscription extension and perfeâ—â—ion of Christes flesh as well in all other requisites as in substance and to prooue this amongst other arguments they brought as I haue shewed the Sacrament for a resemblance and demonstrance of both natures in Chrisâ— that as the bread after consecration keepeth his quantity quality shape and substance notwithstanding it be vnited and annexed to the heauenly grace that worketh in the sacrament so the bodie of Christ after his assumption retaineth his former perfection proportion figure and substance loosing no poinâ—â— nor part of his humane nature but only replenished with immortall glorie This must be Leoes Hoc if he will do any good with alleaging the Sacrament against Eutiches as I haue proued by Austen Gelasius and Theodoret Otherwise if he do but mention your real presence he openeth the gappe and leuelleth the way to Eutiches furie and runneth headlong against the rest of his fellow seruants and successours that vsed the same argument to confute Euâ—iches with a manifest contradiction of your reall presence Phi. I bring you Leoes wordes Theo. Leoes wordes haue nothing in them to crosse that sense which I establish Hoc signifieth any thing and hath no relation to Christes flesh in the sacrament but to the proportion rather betweene Christ the sacrament in that they beleeued no other thing of Christ than they saw with their eyes receiued with their mouths in the Sacrament to wit the perfect shape substance of bread after Consecration consequently they must holde the same opinion of Christs humanitie after his ascension Phi. If you vse this trade you may peruert all the fathers writings and make what sense you list to their sayings Theo. Peruert them no more than we doe and you shall neuer euert the maine doctrine as you haue doone We measure â—heir wordes by their owne warrant and suffer nâ—t a phrase here and there which may bee well reuoked to their rules to vndermine the chiefe grouâ—des of their faith Phi. No more doe we Theo. Why then rage you to heare vâ— say that these few places which you haue brought for eating christs bodie with your mouthes and iawes may be referred to the signes called by those names as well as to the things themselues Phi. You take vpon you to bee Iudges and to pronounce at your pleasures when the wordâ—s shall belong to the one and when to the other so that no father shall say any thing against your heresie but yet will by and by turne it and wind it I knowe not whither Theo. Nothing more hindereth the search for trueth than a desire to lye We shew you the general admonition of the fathers themselues that after consecration they call the visible signes no longer by their woonted names but by the names of those things whose signes they are and whose vertues they haue This Rule we say is then to take place when the speach which we find in a father if it should be referred to the things themselues would be both absurd and repugnant to
the thinges themselues whose signes those are Philand It were Theophil Why then since corporall eating serueth only for corporall nourishing and hath a continuall and naturall coherence with it doe you confesse the trueth in the later and not as well in the former part of that action why doe you not expound them both alike Philand To say the immortall fleshe of Christ is conuerted and turned into the quantitie and substaunce of our mortall flesh is an horrible heresie Theophil And so say that his fleshe is eaten with our mouthes and â—awes lâ—â—th in our stomacks is the verie pathway right introduction to that heresie or at least to as brutish and grosse an erour as that is Philand The Fathers affirme that his body is eaten with our mouthes Theophil And so they affirme that his bodie and blood doe increase and augment the substaunce of our mortall and sinnefull bodies Philand But that can not bee Theophil No more can the other Philand Howe shall our bodies rise at the last day if Christes body bee not in them Theophil Our resurrection dependeth not on the act of eating his flesh but of nourishing our fleshe with his as Ireneus telleth vs and the thinges which wee eate are not the causes but as the great Nicene councell admonisheth the pledges of our resurrection Their words be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we must beleeue these to bee the signes or pledges of our resurrection Philand S. Chrysostom earnestly inforceth the eating of Christs flesh And sayth wee doe not onely eate it but euen * fasten our teeth in his fleshe Theo. In deede hee saith so but if you did not auert both your eyes and eares from the trueth you would perceiue by that verie sentence both the maner of his other Fathers speeches of that Sacrament and the right intent of their Doctrine in those cases His wordes are Non se tantum videri permittens desiderantibus sed tangi manducari dentes carni suae infigi desiderio sui omnes impleri Christ suffering himselfe not only to bee seene of those that are desirous but to bee touched and eaten and our teeth to bee fastned in his flesh and all to be satisfied of their longing after him Phi. Lord me thinketh these words be verie plain words He suffereth our teeth to bee fastned in his fleshe Theo. Uerie plaine they bee but very false also vnlesse you either take the flesh of Christ for the signe called by that name or else referre teeth and biting to the soule and faith of the â—â—ward man aâ— wel as you do the eyes hands wherewith we see him touch him Phi. Look what an â—â—â—sion you haue since gotten Theo. Nay looke what a subuersion of all truth and saith you be since fallen to Phi. Doth not this Father say wee fasten our teeth in his flesh Theo. Doeth hee not also say We see him with our eyes touch him with our handes Phi. That is referred to our faith as S. Ambrose teacheth Fide Christus videtur side Christus tangitur By faith Christ is seene by fayth Christ is touched Theoph. And why shall not the next which is more vnlikely to bee true bee referred to faith as well as the former Sainct Ambrose likewise saying Comedat te cor meuÌ„ panis sancte panis viue panis munde veni in cor meum intra in animam meam Let mine heart eate thee O holy bread O liuing bread O pure-bread come into my heart enter into my soule and Cyprian calling it the proper norishment of the spirite besides infinite others that for a thowsande yeares taught that doctrine in the church of God not your gutturall eating of Christ with teeth and iawes Phi. Was your maner of eating Christes fleshe which you defende in the sacrament taught in the church for a thowsande yeares Theop. Euen ours was and when yours came first to be proposed your schoolemen ran euery man his way fighting and scratching one an other â—ho should fal fastest and farthest from the truth Philand Blush you not to auouch two such monsterous lies Theop. A lyar will easily suspect any man as knowing him-selfe to delight in lies but GOD bee thanked that lyes with you bee truethes with vs and with all that haue any knowlegde of GOD or care of his truth The things which I affirmed be manifest truethes and such as you will blush at for verie shame if you be not sworne to your holie Father against Christ as well as you bee against your Prince Origen commenting vppon these wordes of the Supper this is my bodie this is my blood this breade sayeth hee which Christ confesseth to bee his bodie is the worde that nourisheth our soules and this drinke which hee confesseth to bee his blood is the worde that moysteneth and passinglie cheereth the heartes of such as drinke it Thou which art come vnto Christ sticke not in the blood of his fleshe but rather learne the blood of his worde and heare him saying to thee this is my blood which shall bee shedde for the remission of your sinnes Hee that is partaker of the mysteries knoweth the flesh and blood of the worde of God For the bread is the word of righteousnesse which our soules eating are nourished with and the drink is the worde of the knowledge of Christ according to the mysterie of his birth and death The blood of the Testament is poured into our heartes for the remission of our sinnes Athanasius Howe fewe men woulde his bodie haue sufficed that this shoulde bee the foode of the whole worlde Yea therefore doeth bee warne them of his ascension into heauen that he might drawe him from thinking on his bodie and they thereby learne that the flesh which he spake of was celestiall meate from aboue and spirituall nourishment to bee giuen by him The wordes which I spake to you are spirite and life which is as much as if hee had sayde this bodie which is in your sight and delyuered to death for the worlde shall bee giuen you for meate that it may bee spiritually distributed in euery one of you and be an assuraunce and preseruatiue to raise you to eternall life Cyprian writing of the Lordes Supper Eating and drinking saieth hee bee referred to the one and same end with the which as the substance of our bodies is increased and preserued so the life of the spirite is maintained with his proper nourishment What foode is to the fleshe that faith is to the soule what meate is to the body that the worde is to the spirite working euerlastingly with a more excellent vertue that which bodily meates doe for a time and vntill a season Ambrose approaching to the sacred communion which you intitle a prayer preparing to Masse amongest other thinges speaketh thus to Christ himselfe Thou Lord saydst with thine holy and blessed mouth the bread
doubted but the trueth was present with the signe the spirite with the sacrameÌ„t as Cyprian saith We knew there could not follow an operation if there went not a presence before Set a side your carnal imaginations of Christ couered with accidences his flesh chammed betweene your teeth and say what you will either of his inuiâ—â—ble presence by power and grace or of the spiritual and effectuall participation of his flesh and bloud offered and receiued of the faith-full by this Sacrament for the quickening and preseruing of their soules and bodies to eternall life we ioyne with you no wordes shal displease vs that any way declare the trueth or force of this mysterie Your locall compassing of Christ with the shewes and fantasticall appearances of bread wine your reall grinding of his flesh with your iawes these be the points that we deny to be Catholike these doe the fathers refute as erroneous and in these your owne fellowes be not yet resolued what to say or what to hold Phi. Be not we resolued what to hold of Christes reall being in the Sacrament and the corporall eating his flesh with our mouthes Theo. How you be secretly resolued I know not your iudgementes laid downe to the world in writing are cleane contrarie Phi. Ours Theo. Whose said I but yours Phi. Howsouer in other thinges we retaine the libertie of the Schooles to dispute pro con yet in this you shall finde vs all together Theo. Together by the eares as dogges for bones Omit your contentions what the pronowne H O C supposeth what the verbe E S T â—ignifieth when and how the bread is abolished whether by conuersion or annihilation what bodie succeedeth and whether with distinction of parts and extension of quantity or without what subiect the accidents haue to hang on whether the aire or the body of Christ what it is that soureth and putrifieth in the formes of bread and wine whether it be the same bodie that sitteth in heauen and if it be how so many contradictions may be verified of one the same thing Omit I say these with infinite other like contentions the corporall eating of christ with your mouthes are you all agreed about it Philan. We are Theo. Your two Seminaries are perhaps because they hearken rather for sedition in the realme than for Religion in the Schooles But the great Rabbins of your side are they in one opinion concerning this matter Phi. Great and small consent togither against you Theo. Against trueth they doe but in their owne fantasticall error they doe not The cheefest Pillours of your church when they come to that point which is now in handling wander in the desert of their owne deuises as men forsaking and forsaken of trueth Your Gloze is content if a man gape wide that the body of christ shall enter his mouth but he holdeth it for an heresie that the teeth should touch the same and therefore when the iawes beginne to close he dispatcheth away the body of christ in post towards heauen Certum est It is no coniecture but certaine that as soone as the formes of bread be pressed with the teeth tam cito presently the bodie of christ is caught vp into heauen Durandus is more fauourable to the teeth and will haue christ present in the mouth chamme he that list till his â—awes ake but hee is as strait laced against the stomack as the glozer is against the teeth and wil by no meanes haue the bodie of christ to passe thither building himselfe on these wordes of Hugo Christ is corporally present in visu in sapore whiles wee see or tast the sacrament As long as our bodily senses are affected so long his corporall presence is not remooued but when once the senses of our bodie beginne to faile that we neither see nor tast the formes then must wee seeke no longer for a corporall presence but retaine the spirituall because christ passeth from the mouth neither to heauen as the Gloze said nor to the stomack as the rest affirme but to the hart And better it is that he goe straight to the mind than descend to the stomacke Others is whome Bonauenture more inclineth will no way but Christ must take vp his lodging as wel in the stomacke as in the mouth maâ—y thence they suffer him not to wagge neither vpward nor downward whatsoeuer become of the accidentâ—l forms of bread and wine And lest it should be â—hought as Durand and Hugo say that the bodie of Christ goeth to the hart he repâ—ieâ—h that Quantum ad substantiam corporis certum est quod non vadit in meâ—tem sed vtrum sic vadâ—t in ventrâ—m dubium est propter diuersitatem opinionum as touching the substance of his bodie it is cleare that he passeth not to the mind but whether he so come that is in the substance of his bodie from the mouth to the belliâ— this is yet in doubt by reason of the diueâ—sitie of opinions in so great varietie what to hold is haâ—d to iudge Yet he liketh not that Aut mus in ventrem traijceret aut in cloacam descenderet the bodie of Christ shuld goe into the bellie of a mouse or be cast foorth by the draught because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that sidiceremus haeretici infideles deriderent nos irriderent and if we should defend that the heretiks and infidels would iest at vs and laugh vs to scorne This notwithstanding Alexander de Hales in spiâ—e of al heretikes and infidels â—entereth on it If a dog or an hogge saith he should eat the whole consecrated host I see no cause but the Lords bodie should goe therewithall into the bellie of that dog or hog Thomas of Aquine sharpely reprouâ—th them which thinke otherwise Some haue saide that as soone as the Sacrament is taken of a mouse or a dog streight way the bodie and bloud of Christ cease to be there but this is a derogation to the trueth of this Sacrament In â—auour of Thomas Petrus de Palude Ioannes de Burgo Nicolaus de Oâ—bellis with the whole sect of Thomists neither few in number nor mean in credite with the church of Rome defend the same yea where the master of the sentences seemed to shrinke from this loathsome position It may wel be said that the bodie of Christ is not receined of brute beasts the facultie of diuines in Paris with full consent gaue him this check here the master is refused And for feare lest the field should be wonne without him in steppeth Antonius Archbishoppe of Florence and recompenseth his late comming with his lewd writing First hee telleth how Petrus de Palude dressed the Glâ—ze for saying that Christ is caught vp to heauen as soone as the formes of the sacrament are pressed with our teeth Quod dicere est haereticum which
to say is hereticall And therefore they ioyne both in this that the bodie of Christ may not only be eaten of a Mouse but also it may be vomited vppe by the mouth and purged downe by the draught say Bonauenture what he will or can in detestation of their folke These be their words Igitur corpus Christi sanguis tam diu manet in ventre stomacho vel vomitu quocunque alibi quamdiu species manet Et si specieâ— incorruptae euomuâ—tur illa autem qâ—andoque non corrùpta emâ—ttuâ—tur vt in habentibus fluxum ibi est vere corpus Christi Therefore the bodie and bloud of Christ remaine in the bellie anâ— stomacke or in vomite and in whatsoeuer course of nature so long as the shewes of bread and wine remaine And if they be vomited or purged before they be altered as sometimes in those that are troubled with the fluxe euen there is the true bodie of Christ. O filthie mouthes and vncleane spirites What Capernite what heretike what Infidel was euer I say not so carnall and grosse but so barbarous and brutish Is this the reuerence you giue to the sacred and glorious flesh of Christ Is this the corporal presence that you striue for Shal Mice Dogges and Swine haue eternall life that you bring them to eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of our Sauiour The rest of your sluttish diuinitie no religious hart can repeate no Christian eares can abide let your neerest frindes be iudges whether this kinde of eating doe not match not only the Capernites but also the Canibals This vile and wicked assertion you will beare men in hand you did euer detest and so think to discharge your selues but you cannot scape so The church of Rome whose factours and attournies you be must answere to God and the worlde for suffering admitting and strengthning this sacrilegious blasphemie For when these things were first broched what did she Did she controle the doers and condemne the filthines of their error Did she so much as note the men or mislike the matter No Philander she proposed the question in her sentences Quid igitur sumit mus vel quid manducat What then doth the mouse take or what doth he eate And with her colde and indifferent answer Deus nouit God knoweth she set the schoole men on work she laid vp the ashes of those mice next her altars for reliques she fauored aduanced and canonized the spredders of it Thomas of Aquin was her only Paramour Hugh of Cluince who commended a Priest for eating the sacrament which a leaper had cast vp Cum vilissimo sputo was Saincted of her she made Antonius no worse man than an Archbishoppe What Call you this the quenching or kindling the suppressing or increasing of heresies No maruaile if you recken Rebels for Martyrs your holy mother the Church of Rome hath the cunning to make saints of blasphemers Returne returne for shame to grauitie trueth and antiquitie Learne to distinguishe that which is seene in this Sacrament from that which is beleeued I meane the visible creature from the grace which is not visible HADST THOV BEENE saith Chrysostome WITHOVT A BODIE Christ WOVLD HAVE GEEVEN THEE HIS INCORPORALL GVIFTS NAKEDLY that is without any coniunction of corporall creatures BVT NOW BECAVSE THY SOVL IS COVPLED WITH A BODIE THEREFORE IN THINGS THAT BE SENSIBLE THINGS INTELLIGIBLE ARE DELIVERED THEE AS BREAD saith Cyril of this sacrament SERVETH FOR THE BODIE SO THE WORD SERVETH FOR THE SOVL. It is neither nouâ—ltie nor absurditie to say that the bread of the Lorde as touching the material substance may bee deuoured of beasts digested of men and will of it selfe in continuance mould and putrifie Such is the condition of all creatures that serue to nourish our bodies and this is a creature well knowen and familiar to our senses But the word of God which is added to the corporall elements the grace which is annexed to the visible signes and the flesh of Christ which quickneth the soul of man by faith these thinges I say be free from all violent and vndecenâ— abuses and iniuries For they be no corporall mortall nor earthlie creatures but spirituall eternall and heauenly blessings and therefore in no case subiect to the greedines of beasts vncleanes of men or weaknes of nature The element is one thing saith Ambrose the operation is an other thing That which is seene in all Sacraments is temporall that which is not seene is eternall If wee looke to the very visible thinges wherein Sacraments are ministred who is ignorant saith Austen that they be corruptible But if wee consider that which is wrought by them who doth not see that that cannot suffer any corruption Of the Lordes Supper Origen affirmeth that the bread as touching the matter or materiall partes thereof goeth into the bellie and forth by the draught but the praier and blessing which is added doeth lighten the soule according to the portion of faith The sacrament that is the sacred element is one thing saieth Rabanusâ— the power of the Sacrament is an other thing The Sacrament is receiued in at the mouth with the vertue of the Sacrament the inwarde man is filled the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the bodie by the vertue of the Sacrament wee attaine eternall life This doâ—trine your schoolemen either wilfullie reiected or foolishly peruerted to make Christ substantiallie present in your Masses and for that onely cause felâ— thâ—y to the locall shutting of him within the formes of bread and the corporall eating his flesh with their teeth Which grossenes once preuailing in your Church of Rome Thomas Alexander Antonius and the greatest Clarkes of your side were by the consequent of your reall presence forced to conâ—â—sse that the flâ—sh of Christ might be subiect to the teeth and iawes as well of beastes as of vnbeleeuers For wickednes is worse than sluttishnes and the bodies of sinnefull men God more detesteth than he doth the bowels of vnreasonable creatures Since then by the generall consent of your Church Christ doeth not refuse the bellies and intralles of faithlesse persons why say they should he not be verily contained in the capacities and inwardes of brute beastes if by mischaunce they deuoure the Sacrament This hold fast your gloze layeth hands on Si dicatur quodmus sumat corpus Christi non est magnum inconueniâ—ns cum homines sceleratissimi illud sumant If it be said that a mouse taketh the bodie of Christ it is no great inconuenience seeing most wicked men doe receiue the same and this Bonauenture setteth downe for the chiefest motiue to that vile assertion Phi. To tel you truth I like not that position Theo. So long as you defend Christs humane substance to be locally present in your host you cannot for your hart auoide it but either by mocking your sâ—lues and deluding your senses or
himself is neither of a diuine substance only nor of an humane only There is then as wel in the high Priest as in the sacrifice an heauenly substance there is also an earthly substanceâ— The earthly substance in theÌ„ both is that which may corporally locally be seen The heauenly in them both is the inuisile word which in the beginning was God with God The Church of England euen to the conquest held the same Doctrine and taught it to the people of this Land in their publike homilies which are yet to be seene of good record in the Saxon tongue The sermon then read on Easter day throughout their Churches is a manifest declaration of that which I say where amongst others these words are occurrent The holy font water that is called the welspring of life is like in shape to other waters and is subiect to corruption but the holy Ghosts might commeth to the corruptible water through the Priests blessing and it can after wash the bodie and soul from all sinne through Ghostly might Beholde now we see two things in this one creature After true nature that water is corruptible water and after Ghostly mystery hath hallowing might So also if we behold that holie housell after bodily vnderstanding then see we that it is a creature corruptible mutable if we acknowledge therein ghostly might theÌ„ vnderstaÌ„d we that life is therein and that it giueth immortalitie to them that eate it with beliefe Much is betwixt the inuisible might of the holy housel the visible shape of his proper nature It is naturally corruptible bread and corruptible wine and is by might of Gods word truly Christes bodie and his bloud not so notwithstanding bodily but Ghostly Much is betwixt the bodie Christ suffered in and the body that is hallowed to housell The body truely that Christ suffered in was borne of the flesh of Mary with bloud with bone with skinne and with sinewes in humane limmes with a reasonable soul liuing and his Ghostly body which wee call the housell is gathered of many cornes without bloud and bone without limme without soul. And therefore nothing is to be vnderstood therein bodily but al is Ghostly to be vnderstood Phi. What care we for your Saxon recordes Theo. Lesse care we for your Romish Monckish recordes so lately and grossely forged as we haue proued yet this to your inward grief you may now see shal an other day to your vtter confusion feele that your nouelties touching the Sacrament were neuer hard of in the Church of England nor in the Church of Christ til Lancfrancus Anselmus other Italians a thowsand yeres after christ came in with their AntichristiaÌ„ deuises and inuentions expounding Species and forma panis for the qualities accidents of bread without any subiect or substance which once taking place you fel amaine both to sacrilegious sophismes against trueth and rebellious practises against Princes ceased not til you brought them to their hight in your late Laterane Councell vnder Innocentius the third 1215 yeares after Christ. This is your Catholicisme that you so much vaunt of which the Christian world was vtterly ignorant of for almost a thousand yeares and to the which you would now reduce the simple with a shew of holines pretending greate grauitie and admirable antiquitie with bolde faces and eger speaches though you be void of both if you were well examined Phi. Were the doctrine of elder ages in some doubt which we knowe to be fully for vs yet you confesse these last fiue hundreth yeares are cleare on our side Theo. The miter and Scepter were yours the mysterie of iniquiiie working as was foretold and infecting the West Church with hypocrisie and heresie as fast as the Turke oppressed the East with rage tyrannie Yet in euerie of these last most corrupted ages God raised a number of innocent and simple men with the confession of their mouthes and expence of their liues to witnesse his trueth against the pride and fury of their aduersaries whome your holie father hanged burned and otherwise murdered for repining at his proceedings that whome with honour and ease he could not allure at lest he might quaile with terror and torment Phi. Shoulde wee leaue the fellowship of holie Popes famous Prelates mighty Princes learned and Religious Moncks and Friers yea Saints and ioyne our selues to a fewe condemned and infamous heretikes as you doe Theo. That which is pretious and admirable before men may be odious detestable before God The dignities of men cannot deface the truth of Christ the higher their states the greater their falles if they did oppose themselues against the highest Phi. You say they did Theo. I doe not but this I say that if the respect of their externall and temporall glorie be the ground of your conscience you haue a wicked affection as well as Religion To follow men against God is to magnifie them afore God Phi. You condemne them for cast-awaies Theo. I am not their iudge He that made them might be mercifull to them amiddest the defects and dangers of those daies as he hath been to some in all ages and places yet that is no safetie for you to defend their open errors and wilfully to continue their wickednes Phi. Were not our fathers religious and holy men Theo. Iustifie not your fathers against God lest their mouthes condemne you for a pernicious ofsprng God will be glorified when he iudgeth say you and your fattherâ— what you can to the contrary Reprooue not the sharpnes of his iustice which he neuer sheweth but for great and vrgent cause submit your selues rather and acknowledge it is his vndeserued and yet not vnwoonted mercie that you be not consumed as your fathers were before you but haue yet time and warning to repâ—nt Phi. And are you such Saints that you â—eede no repentance Theo. Wee desire to liue no longer than we confâ—sse before heauen and earth that as God hath beene righteous in reuenging the sinnes and iniquities of our fathers by taking his trueth from them and leauing them to the power of darkenes and kingdome of Antichrist so he might most iustly for our vngodlines vnthankfulnes haue wrapped vs in the same confusion and destruction saue that of his infinite and vnspeakeable mercy he woulde haue his Gospell preached afresh for a witnes to all Nations before he come to iudgement to make all men inexcusable that haue either not beleeued or not obeyed the truth And this causeth vs not onely with all that is within vs to giue glorie to his name for so great a blessing but to beseech him that though we be lighted on the ends of the world when charitie waxeth cold and faith is skant found on the face of the earth we may not be caried away with the error of the wicked to perdition especially not to followe the way of Cain that
the bosome of the Catholike Church as you terme it to obay their Prince against the censures of your Church Phi. I haue hast in my way Theophilus and I haue said as much as I wil at this time Theo. I can hold you Philander no longer than you liâ—t but yet remember this as you ride by the way which I reiterate because both your Seminaries shall think the better of it that as many as you reconcile so long as you teach this for a point of faith that the Pope may depose Princes and must bee obayed in those his censures of all that will be Catholikes so many both heretikes against God and traytors against the Prince you hatch vnder the hoode of religion and also that the thinges now reformed in the Church of England are both catholik and christian notwithstanding your fierce bragges and fiery wordes lately sent vs in your RHEMISH Testament To the KING euerlasting immortall inuisible vnto GOD which is only wise be honour and praise for euer and euer Amen The speciall contents of euery part The contents of thâ— first part The Iesuits pretenders of obedience Pag. 2 The causes why they fledde the Realme 5 The proofes and places of their Apologie 7 Forcing to Religion 16 Two Religions in one Realm 21 Toleraunce of error 26 Toleraunce of error in priuate places and persons 27 Compulsion to seruice and Sacraments 29 Exacting the oth 30 Their running to Rome 35 This Lande receiuing the faith from Rome 40 Preachers sent from Rome with the Kings consent 41 Preachers not conspirators froÌ„ Rome 41 Howe the Fathers soughte to Rome 42.48 Athanasius at Rome 44 Chrysostomes request to Innocentius 51 A forged Bull against Arcadius 53. Chrysostomes banishment 55 How Saint Augustine sought to Rome 56 How S. Basil sought to Rome 58 S. Ieroms letters to Damasus 60 The Rocke on the which the Church is built 62 S. Cyprian lately corrupted 65 Gratian suspected 66 Peters person laide in the foundation of the Church 67 Theodoret and Leo. 67 The Bishop of Rome resisted 68 Paul resisted Peter 69 Polycarpus resisted Anicetus 70 Polycarpus resisted Victor 70 Cyprian resisted Stephanus 71 Flauianus withstoode foure Bishops of Rome 72 Cyrillus withstoode the Bishop of Rome 72 Councels resisting the Byshop Rome 73 The Councell of Africa resisted the Byshop of Rome 74 Forged Decretals 76 The councel of Ephesus threatning the Legates of Rome 78 The Councell of Chalcedon against the Bishop of Rome 79 The Councell of Constantinople against the Bishoppe of Rome 81 CorruptioÌ„s in the CanoÌ„ lawe 81 The Brytons resisting the Bishop of Rome 82 The Grecians detesting him 83 The Germans deposing him 84 His owne Councels depose him 85. Fraunce resisting the Pope 92 Paris appealeth from him 94 The french King resisting the Pope 95 The Kinges of England against the Pope 97 Our resistaunce more lawefull than theirs 104 Peters dignitie not imparted to the Pope 104 S. Ieroms praise of Rome 105 The manners of Rome since his time 105 The manners of Rome in his time 106 S. Cyprian forced to make for Rome 106 S. Augustine forced to make for Rome 107 From Peters seate is from Peters time 107 The intent of the Seminaries 108. High experiments of Popes 112 High experiments of the Popes clergie 114 The Iesuits slaunder England and Scotland 118 What the Iesuits worke teach in this land 119 The Pope succeedeth his Auncestors neither in seate nor beliefe 12â— The contents of the second part The Princes power to COMMAVND for trueth 124 Princes be gouernours of countries Byshops be not 127 Byshops by Gods lawes subiect to Princes as well as others 128. The Prince by Gods law charged with Religion 129 Princes may commaund for religion 133 Constantine commaunding for Religion 134 Constantius commaunding Bishops in causes ecclesiastical 135. Iustinian commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 137 Charles commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 139 The lawes of Charles for causes Ecclesiasticall 140 Ludoâ—ikes lawes for causes Ecclesiasticall 144 Ludouikes lawes visitors 144 What is ment by SVPREME 146. Supreme is subiect to none on earth 146 Princes subiect onely to God 147. Princes not subiect to the Pope 147. The Pope subiect to his Prince 148. Constantine superiour to the Pope in causes ecclesiastical 150 Emperours superiour to the pope in causes Ecclesiasticall 152 The Prince superiour to the Pope 160 Ieremies words expounded 160 How Prophets may plant and roote out kingdoms 161 Howe Kinges must serue the Church 162 How Byshops are to be obeied 164 How the Church is superiâ—ur to Princes 167 What is ment by the Church 168. The Prince not aboue the Church 171 Princes haue power ouer the persons of the Church 172 The woordes of S. Ambrose to Valentinian 173 The behauiour of S. Ambrose towards Valentinian 174 Valentinian refused to be iudge betweene Byshops 177 Valentinians fault 178 Theodosius searched and established the trueth 178 Princes decreeing for truth 179 Athanasius Osius Leontius 179 Athanasius reproued Constantius 180 Athanasius expounded 181 Why Constantius was reproued 182 Osius words examined 188 Leontius discussed 189 What Hilarie misliked in Constantius 190 Kings commended in the scriptures for medling with religion 191 Moses â—oshuaes example 192 King Dauids care for religioÌ„ 193 Princes charged with the whole law of God 194 Asa Iehosaphat Ezekiah perfourmed that charge 193 Manasses Idolatry repeÌ„tance 196 Iosiah reformed religion 197 Nehemiah correcteth the high Priests doings 197 Princes medled with religioÌ„ 198 Princes vsed to commaund for religion 198 God commaÌ„deth by their harts 199. Princes commanding for Religion 200 Princes haue ful power to command for trueth 202 Princes may prohibite and punish error 203 To commaund for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with Princes 204 To commaund Bishops for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with auntient Princes 206 The Iesuites purposely mistake the Princes supremacie 213 The Iesuits cauelling absurdities against the Popes power 221 This land oweth no subiection to tribunals abroade 228 This lande not subiect to the Popes tribunall 229 What subiection the Pope requireth 231 The Pope maketh it sacrilege blasphemie to doubt of his tribunall 231 A right Rhomish subiection 232 Patriarks of the west 233 Patriarks subiect to Princes 234 This Realme not in the Popes Prouince 135 The Patriarkeâ—dome dissolued 235 The words of the oth examined 236 It is easie to plaie with wordes 237 Princes gouerne with the sword Bishops do not 238 Princes only beare the sword in all spirituall things causes 238. Princes supreme bearers of the sword 240 Supreme gouernour displaceth not Christ. 241 Princes may not commaunde against the faith or Canons 242. Gregorie shamefully corrupted 243. Spirituall men aâ— matters 244. Carnall things called spirituall 245 Carnall thinges made spirituall to increase the Popes power and gaine 245 Carnall things made spirituall 246 Princes charged with spirituall things 247 Princes chiefely charged with things truly spirituall 247 Princes charged at Gods hands with things spirituall not
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
in Henrie 3. anno 1241. Bernardes report of the Romanes in his time Bernardus de consideratione ad Eugenium lib. 4. What examples of vertue deuotion the Romane institution hath giuen If we should say as Bernard doth I deeme you would be angrie S. Hieroms report of the madnes of Rome Hieron praefat lib. 2. in Episto ad Galaâ—as Idem in Esaiae Cap. 2. Idem ad Princip Marâ—elle Epitaph Idem aduersus Iâ—â—ianum li. 2. Idem praefat in lib. Dydimi despiriâ—â— sancto Cyprian and Augustine forced by the Iesuites to make for Rome Cypri epist. 55. vel li. 1. epist. 3. Apolog. Cap. 1. August de vtilitate Credendi Cap. 17. From the Apostles See is from the time the Apostles sate or taught in the church August de vtilitate credendi Cap. 17. August in Psalmo contrae partem Donati Idem contrae epistolam quam vocant Fundamenti Cap. 4. From not in the Apostles seate In our dayes the Pope claimeth a new found power ouer the church and Prince Apolog. Cap. 2. The intent of the Popes Seminaries What things were misliked in the Seminaries Apolog. cap. 3. The Iesuites know not the Popes intention and yet they take part with him against their Prince Apol. Cap. 3. Iesuits drawers of childreÌ„ from their Parents and subiects from their Prince Apolog. Cap. 3. Apolog. Cap. 3. What is it to be the slaues of men if this be not Campion in his 2. article Campion Parsons did aske leaue of the Pope to agnise her maiestie for lawful Queene vntil the Bul might be put in execution Or if these be not sufficient the late defence will serue for all In his 40. motiue And that your defence of English Catholikes expressely doth Apol. Cap. 3. Apolo chap. 3. Experiments of Popes and their clergie out of the reports of their owne friends Martin Polo in an 898.907 Platina in Stepha 6. Sergio 3. Luitpr and Ticinensis li 6. ca. 6. 7. Martin Polon in anno 986. Platina in Bonifacio 7. Platina in Syluestro 2. Platina in Benedicto 9. Martin Polon in anno 1042. Beno Cardinalis de vita gestis HildebraÌ„d Abbas vrspergensis in anno 1228. Ibidem Math. Paris in anno 1213. Baptist. fulgo lib. 9. Agrippa de Leâ—â—â—inio orat ad Louâ—nienses Vuesseluâ— GroÌ„nigensis tract de Indulgenâ—ijs Baptist. Mant. Alphon. lib. 4. Pontan tumulorum lib. 2. in tumulo Lucretiae Alexan. 6. filiae Acti Sannazar epigram lib. 1. 2. * Bernard supra Cant. serm 33. The Iesuites promise high experiments of their Romane institution the patternes whereof if any man will see let him â—ead these complaints of their owne fellowes Sermo ad Clerum in concil Rhâ—mensi congregatum inter opera Bernardi Idem sermo ad Pastores in Synodo congregatos Albert. in Ioh. Cap. 10. Opusculi tripartiti parte 3. Cap. 7. reperitur in tomo conciliorum 2. Holcot in lib. Sapientiae lectio 182. Platina in vita Marcellini Mantua Calaemitatum lib. 3. Ibidem Mantuan ecâ—oga 5. * Idem factorum lib. 2. de carnispriuij consuetud * Idem Syluarum lib. 1. Auentinus annalium Bolorum lib. 6. praefat Marcel Palin Zodiaci vitae lib. 5. in Leone Idem lib. 6. in Virgine Idem lib. 9. in Sagittario Oratio Cornelij Epi. Bitonti 3. Dominica aduent in concil Triden habitâ— Experiments confessed in the late Councâ—l of Trent Mat. 24. 2. Tim. 3. Apolo chap. 2. The main drift of their Apologie was to flatter the Pope to magnifie theÌ„selues and to dissemble their wickednes against the Prince with colourable pretences and speaches which they haue fully performed * Apol. Cap. 3. The Iesuites haue a commission to bely whom they list without controlemeÌ„t Mat. 10. Apolog. Cap. 3. Apolog. Cap. 3. An ignorant boy with a whispering report mig soone worke this conuersion Such teachers such conuerts See Throckmortons coÌ„fession 〈…〉 own 〈…〉 they 〈…〉 superior 〈…〉 voice 〈…〉 oracle 〈◊〉 heauen 〈◊〉 them These two 〈◊〉 they 〈…〉 The Iesuites wilâ—e innocents though they teach it to be lawfull for subiectes to resist and murther their Princes The dispensation of Campion and Faâ—ioâ—s hath those expresse wordes Epist. 8. ad Demeâ—riadem Their succession interrupted Platina in Syluestro 3. Idem in Damaso 2. Idem in Benedicto 4. IdeÌ„ in Ioan. 10. Distinct. 40. c. Non est facile Apoc. cap. 4. sect 1. Aug. Epist. 166. Aug. epist. 166. Princes commanding for truth must be obeied The Iesuites play with the name of the church Act. 20. The Church of God is the people of God The Church neuer taken in the Scriptures for the Priest alone The Iesuites steales from the Church to ChurchmeÌ„ and from theÌ„ to the Pope By the Iesuits diuinitie the Prince shall commaund what pleaseth the Pope They be two distinct questions who shall commaÌ„d for truth and who shall direct vnto truth The Iesuites would make men beleeue that we teach the Princes will to be the rule of faith Neuer man of our side affirmed any such thing If the world can witnesse thus much for vs then is this a colde cauill of the Iesuites Marke how the Iesuites plaie with the oth The right extract of the Iesuites absurdities Apolog. cap. 4. Apolog. chap. 4. Apolog. cap. 4. Their absurdities are no way consequent to our doctrine This is the right supposal of their Apologie Princes be supreme gouernours of the persons not of the things in the church The wordes of the othe The Iesuites lack neither crakes nor wordes Apolog. cap. 4. The partes of the othe examined What is ment by Gouernour Matth. 20. Mark 10. Christ by that word distinguisheth the minister from the magistrat Luk. 22. Luk. 22. 2. Corinth 1. Publik gouernâ—ment is by correctioÌ„ and compulsion Rom. 13. Matth. 26. 1. Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. Matth. 24. 2. Tim. 2. Bishops forbidden to vse violence 2. Timoth. 3. 4. Bishops no Magistrates to beare the sword but only charged with cure of soules which the sword can not touch Princes may commaund punish as well bishops as others Rom. 13. Rom. 13. Bern. ad Senonensum archiepiscopum epist. 42. Chrysost. homil 23. in Epist. ad Romanos Theo. in cap. 13 epist. ad Romanos Theo. in cap. 13. ad Romanos Oecumen in Epist ad Rom. Greg. Epistol lib. 3. cap. 100. Ibidem Greg. Epistol lib. 3. cap. 103. Luke 20. Iohn 19. Act. 25. Iude Epist. Rom. 13. The Clergie must be to the people an example of obedience to Princes Luke 21. Rom. 13. He that must suffer is a subiect as well as he that must obey Princes gouernours of all persons And that in causes Ecclesiasticall as wel as in temporall The Prince charged with both tables Deut. 17. Aug. Epist. 50. How the godly kings of Iudah did interprete their charge 2. Kings 23. 2. Kings 18. 2. Chro. 34. 35. 1. Kings 2. The same charge exteÌ„deth to the kings of the new testameÌ„t Rom. 13. They be gods ministers to reuenge all euill
The Popes power ouer Princes vsurped Rom. 13. Supreme is a manifest deduction out of S. Paul Supreme ouer Persons not ouer things We may not limit where we will obey the sword where not Where they may commaund we must obey We may not resist them but with reuerence indure them though they coÌ„mand against God and his truth Heathen Tyraunts had power of the sword ouer Christ and his Apostles Christ submitted himselfe to the Magistrate So Paul Peter both did and taught 1. Pet. 4. Rom. 13. Whom we must indure in that which is euill those must we obey in that which is good Aug. Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 166. The summe of the doctrine which we teach concerning the Princes supremacie The Iesuites iestes wherewith they mocke the Reader THE DIRECTION of PRINCES VNTO TRVETH Princes must take good care to come by faithfull direction The right directors vnto truth must be discerned by their doctrine not by their dignitie No mortall man may Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. * Iohn 5. 8. De Nuptijs ad Valentin lib. 2. â—ap 33. Optat. lib. 5. ad â—ermenianum Iohn 17. Bishops no iudges of the word of God The church is not iudge of the Scriptures Iohn 10. * Iames 4. Aust. in Psal. 2. * Idem de vera religione ca. 31. * Idem confess lib. 13. cap. 23. * Contra Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. Idem Epist. 19. ad Hieronym Iudging taken for discerning Onely God must limit what is truth what error To discerne truth belongeth to all God willeth all men to trie spirites 1. Iohn 4. Matth. 7. And to discerne false teachers Iohn 10. The people must discerne teachers by their doctrine 1. Corinth 10. 1. Corinth 11. * Matth. 24. Colos. 8. Ephes. 5. 1. Iohn 3. * Heb. 5. 1. Corinth 14. Orig in Jeâ—â—â— Naue hom 2. The Fathers referred them selues to the iudgement of the hearers Ambros. Epi. li. 5. orat in Aux Luke 10. Matt. 10. The people haue libertie to discerne and charge to beware seducers Matth. 24. Matth. 23. The people not bound to beleeue the Pharisees doctrine except it accorded to the law of God Aug. in Iohan. tractat 46. Matth. 16. Ibidem vers 11â— 1. Iohn 4. 1. Thes. 5. Rom. 12. Philip. 1. 1. Corinth 2. The whole Scriptures giue the people leaue to discerne the truth and require them so to do Princes haue the same libertie to discerne trie spirites that priuate men haue The former precepts comprise the Prince aswell as the people Heb. 13. Vers. 7. No man bouÌ„d to the Preacher farther than he speaketh truth The Apostles tied to that condition 1. Pet. 1. * 1. Iohn 1. 1. Corinth 4. Galat. 1. The Angels themselues limited to that rule 1. Corinth 7. 1. Corinth 17. Chrysost. in 1. cap. 2. Epist. ad Timoth. hom 2. * Tertul. de praescript advers haereticâ—s * Chrysost. operis imperfect hom 20. in 7. ca. Mat. Much more teachers that are but seruantes of the law and therfore bouÌ„d vnto the law Princes must obey Bishops because they speak in Gods name and not in their owne Act. 20. Bishops haue commission to feede not to rule their flocks 1. Pet. 5. Iohn 21. They be superiour in teaching not in power to commaund and punish Their functioÌ„ is more perfect excellent because God worketh by their hands and mouthes Aug. contra Crescon lib. 4. cap. 6. Aug. in Psa. 10 In 1. cap. 2. epist. ad Tim. hom 2. De spiritu san lib. 3. cap. 19. 1. Corin. 1. 1. Corin. 3 The word sacramentes serue not to aduaunce the Preachers person The Preachers cal for subiection reuerence to their master not to themselues * 2. Corinth 4. * Mark 10. â— Corint 9. The trueth of God is tied to no certaine persons nor places Peters fayth is trueth in deede but that must be taken out of his owne writings not other mens reports No successour may be trusted against or besides the Apostles writings No poynt of fayth vnwritten Rom. 10. Basil. in sermone de fide Idem in Ethiciâ— definiâ— 8. Hilar. ad Constantium August Idem de Trinit lib. 9. Hieron aduersus Helnidium IdeÌ„ in Psal. 86. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haereticoâ— Idem aduersus HermogeneÌ„ Ambros. de virginibus li. 3. Ireneus lib. 3. cap. 1. Cyril de recta fide ad Reginas lib. 2. August de Pastoribus cap. 11. Idem contra literas Petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. Caus. 11. quaest 3. § si is qui preaest No person nor place may be trusted in matters of faith besides and without the scriptures The best direction for Princes is the word of God Psal. 118. Deut. 17. Deut. 12. Esai 8. Luk. 16. Hieron Cap. 1. in epist. ad Galatas Tertullian de praescriptionib Tertullian vâ— supra Heretikes therfore couet a shew of scriptures because they be the grouÌ„ds of all trueth No tribunall on earth to the which trueth is fastned Where trueth is in doubt the Church is in more doubt The shepheards voice is not knoweÌ„ by the sheepe but the sheep by hearing the sheepheards voice * Iohn 10. Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Succession is no sure direction vnto trueth Ireneus lib. 4. Cap. 43. Cap. 44. Cap. 45. Act. 20. Mat. 7. 2. Pet. 2. 2. Cor. 11. 2. Cor. 11. Bishops haue beene heretikes Bishops asseÌ„bled may erre as wel as Bishops seuered Mat. 18. Two or three haue the same promise of assistance that two or three huÌ„dred haue Councels may erre Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 5. * Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. * Euag. li. 3. ca. 4. Epist. 55 ad Proropium A generall Councel doth not differ froÌ„ a particular but only in number of persons and places Vide distinct 16 § sexta § primo * Tomo concil primo * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 2. * Idem li. 2. c. 36. Tomo concilior primo A generall Councel erring the Church doth not erre A Councell may be reuersed by the rest that be present or absent Sozo li. 1. ca. 23. Sozo li. 2. ca. 25. Sozo li. 4. ca. 9. Leo epist. 52. ad Anatholium Ibidem Their own fellowes haue consessed that general councels might er Panor de elect electi potestate ¶ significasti Panorm IbideÌ„ A generall councel is not the Church Pigh hierarch ecclesiast lib. 6. cap. 5 4. Pighius is earnest that general CouÌ„cels haue erred in decisioÌ„ of faithes Lib. 6. Cap. 7. Lib. 6. Cap. 13. August de baptist lib. 2 cap. 3. S. Augustine confesseth that councels may erre Ibidem The second Councell of Ephesus was generall * Astio. 1. * Euagrius li. 1. Cap. 10. Reperitur chalcedonens concil actio 1. Chalced. concil actio 1. Ecclesiasticall iudges are often deceiued Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 21. August epist. 167. August contra Maximinum lib. 3. cap. 14. Ibidem lib. 3 cap. 14. The Arrians not bound to the authoritie of the Nicene councel The Councell of Ariminum was generall Socrat. lib. 2.
Alfon. lib. 1. ca. 2. Theosoph lib. 4. cap. 32. Then surely masters you do but flatter when you make the Pope free froÌ„ errour Erasmus annot in 1. Cor. ex cap. 7. And yet the Iesuites make it an high point of their faith The Iesuites reâ—use Councels and Fathers because they will not acknowledge the Pope hath erred Clements erronious decree Caus. 12. quaest 1. § lectissimus Plato dialog 4. de Repub. That althings ought to be common among christians is a grosse error The Bishop of Rome a Montanist Tertul. aduer Praxeam The Bishop of Rome an Idolater Marcellini Papae condemnatio tomo concil 1. The Bishop of Rome an Arrian Ruff. li. 1. ca. 27. Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 37. Theodoret. lib. 2 cap. 17. Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 17. Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Ex pontificali Damasi in vita Liberij Hieron de ecclesiast script in Fortunatiano The Iesuites neglect al this to saue the Pope froÌ„ error Hieron ad chronicon Euse. adiectio Omission in one writer is no disproofe in an other Martin Polon in Liberiâ— Vincentius specul histor lib. 15. Cap. 11. 12. IdeÌ„ in Damaso Beleeue none but your selfe then you may be sure the Pope shall not erre Honorius died an heretike 6. Synod actio tiâ— 12.13.16.17.18 * Actio 12. * Actio 13. And for no cause but â—or that it condeÌ„neth the pope as an heretike * 6. Synod actio 18. habet haec epist. Leon. 2. ad Constant. Augustum * Nicen. Synod 2. Actio 3. * Nice Synod 2. actio 7. 8. Synod acti 7. If you would forge against your selues how much more for your selues Though Honorius were innocent yet three general Councels confesse the Pope might erre If one did er others may What reason we should beleeue late Papists speaking in fauour of the Pope against the ancient stories How Papists esteeme antiquitie and vniuersalitie wheÌ„ the Pope is touched Vigilius an heretike Liberati breuiarium cap. 22. Ex libro Pontificali in viâ—â— Vigilij Vigilius a lewd Pope Epist. Syluerij Papae ad vigil â—omo Concil 2. Pontificale in vita Vigilij Vigilius drawen by the neck round about Constantinople Distinct. 19. § Anastasius Ibidem glossa ¶ abegerunt Dist. 19. § Anastasius Ibidem glossa ¶ diuino The See was not free from error when the men did erre that sate in the See The Rhemish Testament 22. Luke The office iâ— not the worse though the maÌ„ be naught He that may erre cannot be supreme iudge ouer the whole Church The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Rom. 10. Faith faileth where the hart erreth The Pope may erre with hart mouth but his Court the Iesuits say can not erre Luke 22. Oraui pro te what place doth te signifie This is rather a plague vpon Peter his successours than a praier for them How the Iesuites constâ—r Christs wordes The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Of a particular extraordinarie fact no generall rule can be gathered God ruled Caiphas mouth against his hart Cyril in Iohan. lib. 8. cap. 3. IbideÌ„ li. 8. ca. 2. The diuel possessed Caiphas hart but God ordered his wordes 1. Kings 24. Mat. 27. Luke 8. â— Iohn 11. God can doe the like when he will Caiphas condemned our Sauiour for a blasphemer Matth. 26. Christs promise was not made to peter sitting in â—udgement Erronious Decretals The decretals of Celestinus lately pared and his error left out Alfons aduers. haereses li. â— cap. 4. Decretal lib. 4. de diuortiis § quanto Ibidem ¶ praedecessor Decretal lib. 4. de sponsa duoruÌ„ § licet praeter To decide of marriage against the truth is an error in faith Sixti Decretae lib. 5. tit 12. § exijt Extrauag Ioh. 22. tit 14. § cuÌ„ inter noÌ„nullos Ibidem He should haue told vs what right they might haue besides the propriety Christ and his Apostles renounced the proprietie and reserued the vse Is not this good diuinitieâ— Extra § cum inter nonnullos gloss ¶ declaramus * Expressè contrarium inâ—uit De consec dist 2. § Ego Beren Ibidem ¶ dentibus A sober vnderstaÌ„ding to expound the wordes clean contrarie to the text IbideÌ„ ¶ quaÌ„ Dominus Nicolaus haec sexta Synodus teneÌ„daÌ„ tradidit mihique firmauit They print no more than they list and mind to defend then they aske vs what errors we find in the Popes decres You might as well say the Pope may er in his shoes but not in his slippers or in the shade but not in the sun-shine We caÌ„ propose theÌ„ a thousaÌ„d Sees which they shal neuer proue to haue erred in open Consistories by definitiue senteÌ„ce Heretiks euer condemned for their writings preachings not for their definitiue senteÌ„ces Though no Pope had erred yet they may erre and so long they can be no iudges of faith The highest court in earth may misse the trueth The Church is directed by the word and spirit of christ not by the Popes consistorie Their owne Church 1400. yeres after Christ stoutly auoucheth the Pope might erre Distinct. 40. § Si Papa Abbaâ— VrspergeÌ„s anno 1080. Fasciculus reruÌ„ sciendarum in vita gestis Hildebrandi Ibidem Matth. Paris in Henrico 3. sub anno 1253. Massei Chronic. in anno 1409. * Naucler Chronograph generatio 47. anno 1409. * Genâ—brard li. 2 Chronograph anno 1414. * Concil CoÌ„stan sessio 37. Concil Constan. sessio 11. Concil Basil. sessio 34. anno 1439. Articuli Parisienses A Iudge must haue skill to discerne and power to coÌ„maund The Pope hath neither Erre he may Power to coÌ„maund or compel he hath none He that wil be iudge of truth must proue his claime All that we giue vnto princes is either to be obeyed or indured 2. Timoth. 3. Ierem. 26. Preachers may reproue Princes 1. Kings 15. 3. Kings 14. 3. Kings 21. 4. Kings 3. Mark 6. 2. Kings 12. 2. Chron. 19. 4. Kings 20. The Prophets reproued as well good kings as euill Preachers must not admit Princes to the Sacraments but on those conditions which god requirâ—th If Princes will be partakers of Gods graces they must receiue them as he doeth propose them Chryso in Mat. hom 83. Ibidem ad populum Antioch hom 60. This is newe Romish diuinitie which in deed is meere impietie D. ALLENS DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES cap. 4. LATELY SET FOORTH AGAINST THE EXECVTION OF IVSTICE The defence of the English Catholikes cap. 4. S. Thomas Thomas Aquine a late corrupt writer a great factor for the Pope The defence of English Catholikes Cap. 4. Toledoes opinion of a Prince excommunicate The case of K. Henrie the 8. What care we for Tholedoes opinion Preachers must not admit Princes to the Sacraments but on those conditions which God requireth Tell vs what warrant and not what fellowes they haue to resist the ordinance oâ— God THE DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES The sentence and definition of
nor conscience This prelate became after a pestilent enimie to king Iohn * Matth. Paris in anno 1215. saith coniurati Steph. Archiep. capital consent habuerunt Matt. Paris anno 1212. The Bishops of England incense the Pope against their king Why shoulde the clergy haue their liuinges if they would not discharge their duties Matt. Paris in anno 1208. The king allowed his clergy food and raiment so that hee barred them only of their abundance Interdicting of whole realmes wrap peth innoceÌ„ts as well as nocents Interdicting God to bee publikely serued is the high waie to increase the kingdom of Satan The right meaning of their Romish interdicts The executors of such interdicts as bad as the pronouncers Matth. Paris anno 1212. By this bait the Pope drue many ambitious princes to serue his turne Not so much as the Popes pride fury but it must be shrewded with the name of the Catholike Church Matth. 3. Romish deuotion the very mother of diuelish rebellioÌ„ Matth. Paris anno 1213. Were nor these good subiectes The King of France would fain haue had the Crowne of England in that respect tooke the Popes offer fol. 95. By the dissention ambitioÌ„ of Princes the Pope grew to be Lord ouer them Feare of the French King draue King Iohn to put his necke vnder the popes gâ—rdle The Pope gate the kingdome of England for himselfe Mat. paris in anno 1213. § hijs ita gestis The Pope a skilfull fisher for kingdoms King Iohn faâ—med his crowne of the Pope by a yerely rent The Pope shewed fauor to King Iohn but most of al to himselfe The pope had as much right to the crowne of England as a thiefe hath by the high waies side to an other mans purse Mat. Paris in anno 1213. § rebus vt iam dictum est The king might binde himselfe but not his successors to these conditions The Barons of this realme detested the kings act Matth. Paris anno 1216. § sub hiis diebuâ— Much lesse successours Matth. Paris anno 1216. § Cumque omnes The coÌ„plaint of the Barons against the Pope and the king Marcidi ribaldi Matth. Paris anno 1216. § Circa hosâ— dies The end of all the Popes deuises No King of England euer acknowleged this subiectioÌ„ to the Pope The Kings of England most of all others kept the Pope shortest from infringing the liberties of their Crowne The pope had a 1000. marks land giuen him by King Iohn part whereof the Pope solde after to WilliaÌ„ wickham Polidor Angli hist. lib. 15. in Ioan. King Iohn burdened him selfe not the Princes after him The defence cap. 5. George died King of Bohemia notwithstanding the Popes practises and Mathias forces Cromer de gestis Polonor li. 27. Cromer eodem libro The Pope verie liberal in giuing kingdoms that be none of his The defence cap. 5. The King of Nauarre Princes content to take part with the Pope so long as it maketh for their profit Guicciard hist. lib. 18. Charles loked through his fingers and saide he saw nothing Guicci li. 11. Ferdinand lacking a better title preteÌ„ded the popes Bull for that part of Nauarre which lay so neere him Right force do not alwaies meete The defence cap. 5. Henry the 2 Tho. Becket Beckets quarell must be good before he can be blessed Appeales to the Pope immunitie of wicked Priests were the quarel that Becket stoode in Beckets fact damnable for these three respects vnlesse the Iesuites proue those lawes which he with stood to be repugnant to the word of God Such proude prelates are likeliest to be of your Romish relâ—gion Becket farre from a martyr The Church of Rome were to be blamed if she did not honor Becket The popes practise to subdue Princes Princes punished for the neglect of trueth discord that raigned amoÌ„gest them The defence cap. 5. No King of England deposed by the Pope but only King Iohn The Kings of Fraunce were too good for the Pope Philip King of Fraunce * Nauel gener 44. anno 1300. * Gagu in Phil. pulchro Platina in Bonifacio 8. Platina IbideÌ„ Gaguin lib. 7. in Phil. pulchr How Philip of France handled Bonifacius see part 1. fol. 95 Lewes King of France Massaed in an 1510. The Realme of France in this our age despised the Popes ceÌ„sure against their King Velleij ad Gag aggeâ— in Lodou 12. The Pope will be tried by the sword and not by the word The Pope no pastor but a warrier All the Germane Emperours that were offered depriuation by the Pope are alreadie recited Philip of Sueuia and Otho the 5. Vrspergens in anno 1197. The Pope would not acknowledge this Philip for Emperor IdeÌ„ in an 1198. Naucler gener 44 anno 1195. Otho erected against Philip. Cuspinian in Phil. Caesar. Frederikes election ratified to spite Otho Fredericke in greater hatred with the Pope than either of the former What followed of these garboiles Vrspergens in anno 1198. §. audiui to tempore Ibidem § properant electi Dispencing with othes is the Diuels art Ibidem ¶ iam tunc Colon. The Pope gained by al this As true a song as any the Hunnal hath Blondus decad 2. lib. 10. Blondus IbideÌ„ Naucl. generat 46. an 1355 The Pope would not suffer the Emperour to come neere Italy Blondus Naucler vt supra The Emperor as glad to be gone as the Pope to haue him goe Blondus decad 2. lib. 10. The Prince sold all the Emperour had both in Italie Germanie The price of a voice in the election of the Emperor Aeneas Siluius histor Bohem. cap. 32. The Romane Empire come vtterly to nothing VeÌ„celaus put from the Empire as vnfit to rule Cuspinianâ— in Vencelao For a 1000. yeares no such thing offered to this present day no such thing acknowledged In all these examples infinite numbers of their own religion haue stoode with Princes against the Pope We may not leaue the precepts of the holy Ghost and the ancient obedieÌ„ce of Christs Church to follow these fierbrands of hell The defence cap. 5. Gregorie the first nâ—uer dreampt of deposing Princes The defâ—nce cap. 5. An excoÌ„mucation of S. Gregorie vpoÌ„ Kings and Priâ—ces In fine libri 12. epist. In fine 12. lib epist. ibidem Gregorie had no more power to depose Princes than he had to damne theÌ„ Gregories wordes are a curse not a iudicial sentence Euerie doner hath the like wordes in his graunt Ibidem Ibidem The defence cap. 5. In eodem priuilegio Gregories act nothing like the Iesuites * King Iohn lost the harts of his Nobles before these troubles beganne Matth. Paris anno 1203. * Matth. Paris in anno 1213. King Iohn thought it easier to loose a 1000. markes by the yeare than to fight for his Crown and state * Matt. Paris Ibidem ¶ Rex denique Iohan. * IbideÌ„ ¶ Dum autem Rex Matth. Paris anno 1215. 〈◊〉 â—â—ins epist. The Nobles pursued King Iohn after his reconciliation to the
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
honor that they make their God To giue Christs honor to an Image in respect of the Originall is a seelie shift To adore the Image in respect of the Originall is in summe the very same answere that al the Pagans gaue when they were reproued for their Idolatrie Adoration of Images neuer hard of in the church before the 2. Nicen Councell which was 790. yeres after Christ. Painting of stories in the Church is a matter somwhat ancient but yet not catholike These fathers were Catholike yet repelled painting in Churches Nicenae Synodi 2. actio 6. The 2. Councell of Nice deluded the fathers that were alleaged against them Epiphanius pretended to be forged but without all cause Ibidem Eusebius condemned by them for an heretike but falsely Nicenae Synodi 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Chrysost. Amphilochius Asterius plainly shifted off by the Councel of Nice Contra Celsum lib. 7. Bowing to Images condemned * August de vera Religio cap. 55. Hieron in 6. cap. Daniel Gerson in compendio Theolog. de 10. praeceptis Some of their owne church haue condemned bowing to Images as contrarie to the lawe of God Saint August abused to make for Images August de doctrin Christ. lib. 3. cap. 9. Things ordained by God must haue their reuerence though they be but creatures marie adoration they must not haue * August lib. eodem cap. 9. de doctina christian lib. 3. c. 5. * cap. 8. Images vnprofitable signes and not ordeined of God * cap. 7. * cap. 8. The lawe of god condemneth bowing vnto Images which precept the Church must obey without all shifts or other respects Praying in a straunge tongue Custome without truth is the rottennes of errour * Cypr. ad Pompei contra epistâ— Stephan * Tertull. de virgin veland * Ex sentent Concil Carthag inter â—pâ—â—a Cyprian * August debap contra Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. Iohn 14. Ephes. 1. The Rhemish Test. vpon the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 14. The place of S. Paul to the Corinthians against praying in a strange tongue The Iesuites labour toothe and nayle to shift off this place * This is the summe of all their declaration vpon the 1. Cor. 14. in their Remish Testament The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The words strange or vnknowne put into the text in an other print for the opening of Sainct Pauls minde Sainct Paules words are most absurd if they be vnderstood of knowne toungsâ— The text cannot stand except you adde the worde vnknowne to it Sainct Paul so expoundeth himself * Vers. 9. * 11. * 16. An other tongue is a strange toung which is all one with an vnknowne tongue Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. The fathers interpreting Sainct Paul adde those wordes which we doe * Ibidem * Ibidem Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem * Ibidem Ibidem Haymo in 1. Cor. 14. * Ibidem August de Genes ad literam lib. 12. cap. 8. Mark what a tongue is by Saint Austens interpretation The Rhemish Test. 1. Corinth 14. He that knoweth not the sense is not edified but he that knoweth not one worde as in a strange tongue is a thousand tymes lâ—sse edified Speake to children in a strange tongue and they will either fly from you for feare or laugh you to skorne Hebrew doth edify no more than Irish if a man vnderstand neither De Gen. ad litâ— lib. 12. cap. 8. Chrysost. in 1. Cor. 14. Ambros. in 1. Cor. 14. Nothing doth edifie except it bee vnderstood The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. A wretched cauill of the Iesuits because the people vnderstand not euerie mysterie of the Psalmâ—â— or lessons to say they were as good not vnderstaÌ„d a word 2. Peter 3. If the Psalmes and lessons do not edifie the worde of god doth not edifie * Rom. 15. * 2 Timoth. 3. The rest of our prayers are so plaine that no man can pretend lack of vnderstanding them except he be a naturall They be mad Christians and of your making that vnderstand not these things This is a wise iest of the Iesuits because the people vnderstande Compare this similitude with the Iesuits obiection and tell me what they differ Yf seruice in â— known toung do not â—difie what doth seruice in an vnknowne The Iesuits waie to edifie is to let the people not vnderstand a word of their praiers Euerie toung barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not * 1 Corinth 14. The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. Act. 2. The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Barbarous that is which is not vnderstood what tongue soeuer it be 1. Cor. 14. * Hieron in 1. Cor. 14. * Chrysost. in 1. cor 14. hom 35. * Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Hebrew Greeke and Latine were not vnderstoode of the ciuil people in euery great Citie The Gretians accounteth the Latine tongue to be barbarous in respect of then own Plautus in prolog Asinariae Strabo Geographiae lib. 1. Rom. 1. We despise not these tongues as barbarous in themselues but shew what Saint Paul meaneth by this word Tristium lib. 5. elegia 11. * And you shall neuer proue he spake not of them in the meane time the Apostles words he indiffereÌ„tly for all tongues In the world and none of them be generall speaches extending to all the toungs that are * Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. * In all toungs he that is not vnderstood is barbarous to the hearer Chrysost. Ibidem Chrysostom exemplifieth Sainct Paules woords twise together by the latine tongue Though wee praie in latine or what toung whatsoeuer Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem By Saint Ambrose iudgement the Apostles spake principally of those that vsed the hebrew toung in their Sermons and praiers when the people vnderstood â—hem not Haymo in 1. Corinth 14. Haymo Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. That he speaketh not of Church seruice is proued by inuiâ—cible arguments Sainct Paule by preaching doth not exclude praying but seuerally mentioneth them both The Church in her diuine seruice must haue both preaching and praying Roma 10 The worde engendreth faith and faith produceth praier Act 2. * These three were the publike exercises of Christes Church vnder the Apostles If the Church seruice consisted of these three then were they all three parts of the church seruice The Church in the Apostles time had no set order of publike praier as the Iesuites dreame In the primatiue Church the pastours and ministers praied and gaue thanks at the spirit directed their hearts lips * God regardeth not these solemnities of the Iesuits which they suppose to be the highest points of godlines All things were doone in the first Church by the miraculous working of the holy Ghost 1. Corinth 12. The gifts of gods spirit at the first erection of the Church 1. Corinth 14. With the spirit is with the miraculous gift of the spirit The presence and consent of the people
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the
and his followers These things expressed in your Author you purposely skip vrging the facts dissembling the causes With like boldnesse you falsifie the reason why Valens was afterward punished It is true that he did teare the supplication of Terentius his Captaine requesting one church for the Catholiks at Antioch It is also true that his armie was ouerthrown himselfe terriblie cōsumed in fire by the Gothes but that he was therfore plagued because he would not suffer two faithes to be plāted in Antioch that is your own surmise Nicephorus hath no such circūstāce Neither did Valētiniā profer the like to S. Ambrose You wrest the story frō his right course to serue your purpose but he required Ambrose to diliuer vp a church in Millā to the which he with other Arians would resort To this Ambrose made answere If I be forced from my Church I can not resist I wil neuer consent to yeeld my right Naboth defended his vine with his blood shal I betray the Church of Christ Valentinian shall rather take from me my life than my faith And for ought that I see the constant refusall of this graue learned godly Bishop withstanding to death the toleration of two religions in one Citie doth preiudice your assertiō more than the demand of a rash yong Arian cā further it If you tell vs that your Catholike seruice may be suffered in this Realme notwithstanding both Gods and mans lawes banish hereticall assemblies then you recant the permission of two contrarie faithes in one Realme and resume the case which lieth in question betwixt vs fondly supposing your selues to bee right Catholikes and those that mislike you to be condemned hereticks which is still denied by vs and of your part neuer yet proued Athanasius and Ambrose were Catholikes in deede but not acquainted with your worshipping of Images your adoring the Sacrament your praying in a strange tongue your changing the Lords supper into priuate Masses the rest of your impieties they neuer hard they neuer taught therefore till you can make good proofe that your faith and religion agreeth with theirs they standing by your owne confession for Catholiks you must of consequent as differing from them in manie substantiall points of doctrine be reputed for hereticks Phi. Which only grace of our Prince if we might haue obtained no pleasure profit or preferment that the world beside yeeldeth in any part of Christēdom should haue kept vs out of our deerely beloued countrie so long for whose saluation and so much libertie of conscience as is mentioned we haue often wished diuerse of our persons in perpetuall prison for pledge and warrant of the peaceable and loyall demenor of our brethren the Catholickes and for securitie of the state whereof hir wise Counsellers haue alwayes in such cases greatest regard But neither this durst our Catholike brethren demand in their manifold feares doubts and disgraces at home nor we in such suspition and misconstruction of all our actions could euer with hope attempt it abroade And alas much lesse then the graunt of publike places for exercise of our auntient religion would haue giuen vs infinite contentment of the Catholikes within and haue called home most of them abroad when both sortes would haue counted it a singuler grace during the distresse of these dayes to haue had by permission pardon conniuence their soule rights without which men perish doubtlesse euerlastingly in ther priuate houses and chambers yea in prisons in the closest and least offensiue manner in the world as the Apostles and Confessours did often in the primitiue Church and S. Cyprian testifieth that some did in his time and S. Anastasius him selfe did with the Catholiks in Antioch From all which being by rigour of penall statutes diligent inquirie of temporall Officers watchfulnesse of ministers spies and promotors continually restrained and by them often chased from their houses spoiled of their goods disgraced and discouraged in all their affaires many thousandes yea the farre greater part of hir Maiesties subiects languish awaie in sorrow and sadnesse irremediable Theo. You departed this Countrie neither expecting hir Maiesties leaue nor regarding hir lawes and would you now be fet home with a triumphe iniurious to God infamous to the Land dangerous to the Prince No man asketh of his equall anie thing but that which is honest and safe for the graunter onely the Iesuites step foorth confidently to demaund at their Soueraignes handes no lesse than the manifest breach of Gods law ioyned with the subuersion of hir royal estate For how displeasant is it to God that light should be matched with darknesse and Christ yoked with Antichrist And how pernicious it is for hir Maiesties quiet and happie continuance to suffer him that hath alreadie cursed hir person remoued hir crowne discharged hir subiectes inuaded hir dominiōs whose seedmen and sworne legates ye be to steale from hir the peoples harts vnder a clowde of Catholike religion and fained deuotion the most honorable and wise Sages of this Realme so well conceiue that I gesse you shall haue much to do with all your colourable pretences and eloquent florishes to shadow the clearnesse of their long and grounded experience To salue this sore we shall haue you foorthcomming for warrant that your brethren shall vse loyall and peaceable behauiour Were this contention for earthly not heauenly things and did it concerne not Christs glory but hir graces indemnitie what a toie this is for a few shifting Friers to thinke them selues meete pledges for a Princes securitie Submission to God and your Prince would better become you than this malepert kinde of prescribing on what conditions you will returne what hostages you will giue what lawes you will agnise which couenants whether you rudely purpose them or manerly wish them no Magistrate will receiue least your burning harts and vnquiet heades slide from misliking to murmuring and so to resisting But your brethren are so bashfull at home that they neuer durst demaund any such thing you so fearful abroad that you could not attept it with hope yet are you so bold that you scatter this inuectiue which chargeth the state with many vile and vnciuill outrages and your associates of the North were so brainsicke that putting themselues in armes against their liege Lady they required by solemne proclamation forsooth not only safe-conduct for your Masse but also the releasing of prisoners vanishing of preachers reuersing of laws displacing of coūselers Phi. If the grant of publike places for our seruice seeme much we wil content our selues with chambers prisons Theo. The priuatnes of the place when the fact is il neither acquitteth the doer frō wickednes neither excuseth the permitter from negligence No corner is so secret no prison so close but your impietie there suffred doth offend God infect others confirme your own frowardnes If your religion be good why should it lacke Churches if it be
naught why should it haue chambers A christian Prince may not pardon or winke at your falshood S. Paul hath put in a caueat against that sleight of permitting which in truth is consenting Elie reproued his sonnes yet was he sharply punished of God for his indulgence which is all one with your conniuence S. Iohn saith he that lodgeth or biddeth an heretike God speede is partaker of his euill works Thē how can the Magistrate beare with your sacrilegious prophaning the Lordes supper or licence the rest of your blasphemies hope to be free from your plagues When Valentinian the yonger was requested to winke at the renewing of an altar for the Pagās in Rome S. Ambrose disswadeth him in these words All mē serue you that be Princes you serue that mighty God He that serueth this God must bring no dissimulation no conniuence but faithful zeale deuotion he must giue no kind of cōsent to the worship of Idols other prophane ceremonies For God will not be deceiued which searcheth all things euen the secrets of our heartes This earnest desire to serue God in hir Princely vocation without any shrinking or wauering hath bin so long plāted is so well setled in hir Maiesties deuoute minde that no possible meanes euer could as you presently finde euer shall as we trust in Gods mercy quench in hir Highnesse that religious affection Phi. This the Apostles confessors did often in the primitiue Church S. Cypriā testifieth that some did in his time S. Athanasius himselfe did with the Catholikes in Antioch Theo. What did they marchandize priuate Masses or feede men with demie Communions Did they mock the simple with praiers not vnderstood or weary them with empty gestures They did no such thing but Priest people ioyned togither to celebrate the Lords supper tasting al of one bread which was broken of one cup which was blessed offred thanks to God with one consent of hart voice for the flesh of Christ that was wounded blood y◠was shed for the remission of their sinnes This was done in prisons whiles persecution lasted in chambers if necessitie forced in those churches which the Christians frequēted Straine Cyprians words at your pleasure yet will they neuer be drawen to make for your vanities He warneth the people not to flock to the prisons in heaps least their resort be noted of Infidels by that meanes all accesse denied he rather aduiseth them that a Priest a Deacon by course should visite the Confessors To what end you shal find at large in a leter of his to Cornelius Let vs not leaue thē naked vnarmed whō we prouoke incite to the skirmish but defend them with the munitiō of the body blood of Christ our Eucharist hauing that vertue to safegard the receiuers How do we prepare thē to take the cup of Martyrdom except we first admit them in the church as cōmunicāts to drink of the Lords cup He that cōcludeth both kinds to be needful for such as were ready to spend their liues in the professiō of Christs name doubtles neuer ment to procure thē a priuate Masse that should keep thē frō receiuing of either Athanasius refusing Leontius the Bishop of Antioch for heresie did cōmunicate in priuat houses with such as fauored Eustathius It skilleth not where but what he did our Sauiour appointed neither time nor place to be respected in his supper but the word elemēts charging vs to do what he did which is to breake giue that all may be partakers of one bread to diuide the cup that all may drincke thereof Do that which he commanded to be done who first ordained this mystery Do that which S. Paul receiued of the Lord deliuered to the Church of Corinth do that I say which the primitiue Church of Christ alwayes did and as for places we wil not greatly striue The rigor of penal statutes searches of temporal officers watchfulnes of poore ministers doth maruelously trouble your spirits I wil not requite you with the flames you kindled in England to burne your brethren to dust with that holy house which your Friers haue planted in Spaine resembling the tortures of Neroes garden with the Massacres of Prouince Piemont and Paris Let passe with silence the cruel executions of your inordinate rages God giue you grace to repent your murders past and soften your vnmercifull harts in time to come you were brought vp in lambes lease belike that you startle thus at the fatherlie chastisement wherewith this Realme seeketh your amendment and sucketh not your blood Compare the penalties which you fret at with the lawes of former Emperours and you shall see that hir Maiesties gracious inclination to shew you fauour aboue your deserts hath eased the burden and tempered the sharpenesse of their auncient edictes which restrained such as forbare to communicate with the Church of Christ from buying selling disposing bequething goods or lands by will or otherwise yea from receiuing any legacies or enioying their fathers inheritance the place where schismaticall seruice was saide chappell or house to be forfaited and the Bishop and Cleargie-man to paie tenne pound weight in gold or to be banished S. Austen when it was expected by reason of the goodnesse of his nature that he should mediate for some part of these penalties to be released gaue this quick stout answere Yea marie what else I should gain-say this constitution that you loose not the things which you call yours you without feare spoile Christ of all his that the Romane lawes should permit you to make your last wils and you with cauelling reuerse that which God bequethed our fathers that in buying and selling your contracts might be good and you share that among you which Christ bought when he was solde that you might freely giue what you list and what the God of Gods hath bestowed on his owne children from East to West should be voide that you should not be banished from the place where your bodies rest and you driue Christ from the kingdom purchased with his blod to reach from sea to sea Nay nay let Princes on Gods name serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. You neede not complaine of rigour so long as our penall statutes be farre more fauourable than these lawes which the Christian Emperours established and the Catholike fathers commended Acquaint the world with the persecution that you suffer in England and your vntrue reports shall soone be conuinced The greatest brunt your friends did beare till this last reuolt which you procured if they ioyned therewithall no traiterous intent was imprisonment where no man was denied the freedom of his goods the comfort of his wife the succor of his friends the basest among them neuer knew what dungeon stocks or Irons ment yet say you They were chased from their houses spoiled of their goods and handled
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
must haue Theo. The charge which Christ gaue Peter to feede his sheepe is common to all Pastours But with the mercy which Christ shewed him in conuerting him and restoring him after his fall what haue his successors to do Christ promised Peter repentance will you therefore inferre that all Popes haue the like promises Or had they as they haue not doeth this let but they may forsweare their master and loose their faith as Peter did notwithstanding this praier and promise of Christ made vnto him Phi. But they shall also repent as Peter did Theo. If you could proue that promise to pertaine vnto them as you can not yet might their errour be publike and their conuersion secret as Peters was and since they bee subiect to Peters fall namely to denie both their faith and their master though they were promised repentance with him as they bee not yet howe can you knowe what thinges proceeded from the Popes mouth erring and which from the Popes hart repenting Which vnlesse you doe you may erre with him to your eternall confusion and not repent with him for that you haue not the like promise Phi. I will bee with you to the worldes ende saith Christ and hee forsaketh those that erre So that if the church should erre this promise of his were not kept which God forbid Theo. You shew the goodnesse of your cause when you reele thus from the Pope to the church and from the church to the Pope and yet finde nothing to fitte you Christ is with euery one of his and not onely with the Pope as you would haue the place to sound and yet I thinke you will not affirm that no christian can erre Many good men haue erred euen in matters of faith and yet not beene forsaken of Christ. The longer you reason the farther you bee from prouing that the Pope can not erre For this promise concerneth him no more than it doth any other christian and perhaps not so much or if it did yet doth it not free him from errour Phi. The promise which is generall to euery member of the church concerneth him chiefly that is head of the church Theo. Keepe this head of yours till the body need it the church of Christ hath a surer and better head thā the Pope or else it were ill with her Phi. Christ we know is the head of his church and the onely head in such soueraigne and principall manner as no earthly man is or can be yet the Pope may be the ministeriall head Theo. When you proue it then say it in the meane while abuse not the word of God to serue your follies Christ dwelleth in the hartes of all that bee his by faith with them he remaineth vntill the worldes end What is this to the Pope or how doth this fense him from errour Phi. If he be Christs he can not erre Theo. This text doth not proue him to be one of Christs but if he bee then Christ is with him as hee is with all other his members Phi. And they can not erre with whom Christ is Theo. Bee these your demonstrations that the Pope can not erre to shewe for him no better nor other priuilege than that which is common to him with women children if they be mēbers of Christ And were he a mēber of Christ which as yet for ought that I see you can hardly proue hee might be deceiued in some cases of religion as well as Lactantius Irineus Cyprian and others men of great learning and good account in the church of God Phi. Our Sauiour saieth it is not possible that the electe shoulde be seduced Theo. Not possible they should bee seduced to fall from God as the wicked are Yet as they may sinne but not vnto death euen so may they erre but not vnto destruction Their errour shall either be not finall or not mortall Phi. May they that erre bee saued Theo. If they holde fast the foundation which is Christ and erre not of wilfull obstinacie but of humane frailtie why may they not bee saued S. Cyprian said of those that were before him If any of our predecessours either ignorantly or simply did not obserue and keepe that which the Lord by his example and authoritie willed his simplicitie may be pardoned by the goodnesse of God And S. Augustin said of him when an errour of his was alleadged by the Donatistes for their defence Cyprian either was not all of this opinion or he after corrected it by the rule of truth or this blemish in his most beautifull brest he couered with the teates of charity And farther alleadgeth and alloweth this saying of Cyprians Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of simplicity may be pardoned Of himselfe and all others S. Augustine saith Homines sumus vnde aliquid aliter sapere quà m se res habet humana tentatio est In nullo autem aliter sapere quā se res habet Angelica perfectio est We are men and therefore to thinke otherwise than the truth is is humane infirmitie or a tentation common to man To be deceiued in nothing is Angelicall perfection And therefore writing to S. Hierom and of S. Hierom he saith Prorsus non te arbitror sic legi libros tuos velle tanquam Prophetarum aut Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium Absit hoc à pia humilitate veraci de temetipso cogitatione I am fully of opinion that you would not haue your books to be read in such sort as wee do the Prophetes and Apostles of whose writinges to doubt whether they be free from all errour is wickednesse Be this far from godly humilitie and the true perswasion of your selfe So that set the Apostles aside and their writinges no man ought to thinke of himselfe that hee can not erre neither can you haue that opinion of any man without a proude false perswasion aboue mans state and against Gods truth Phi. What shall wee then saie to the promise which our Lorde made to his When hee the spirite of trueth commeth hee shall teach you all trueth Theo. If it bee referred to the Apostles then present with him as the wordes next before doe specifie I haue yet many things to saie vnto you but you can not beare them nowe wee graunt those witnesses chosen by Christ to teach all Nations were to bee furnished with all trueth and to bee established in the same but if it bee extended to all the faithfull they also shall bee ledde into all trueth needefull and requisite to saluation I meane the substantiall groundes of faith though in some questions of Religion happilie they shall not all bee like minded Phi. And what for the Churche shall shee haue no parte in this promise Theoph. If the faythfull haue the Church which is the number and collection of the faythfull must needes haue But that the