tayle for the tayle of the beast as learned Tayle of Antichrist what it is mē say be false Prophets Hypocrites such as stirre vp Schismes factions among true Christians and by pretence of zeale by cloaked and coloured meanes seeke to draw into the church Antichrist backward as Cacus did the oxen into his denne Io. Whitgifte To these things y e Replier hath giuen his consent as it should séeme by his silence ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition and vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsified To the end of the second Admonition there is ioyned A reprofe of certaine Articles collected as it is thought by the Bishops for so they say out of a litle booke entituled An Admonition to the Parliament c. But as I thinke it may rather be termed a recantation or if you will a reformatiō or mitigatiō of certen articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne without learning or discretion printed 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold affirme that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Here you finde fault that this worde scarce is left out Indeede this word scarce was written in the margent of diuers copies of the first Admonition whether it were so in all or no I know not no more do I whether any such collectiō as you pretend was made But what neede you so muche sticke in wordes when the thing is manifest for in effect they denie as much as that proposition importeth they wholy condēne the mynisterie the ceremonies the gouernment of this church They say the sacraments be full of corruptions in theyr second Admonition Fol 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly māgled prophaned they vtterly condēne our order māner of common prayer yea in effect our doctrine also for in their secōd Admonitiō Fol. 7 they say that although some truth be taught by some preachers yet no preacher may without daūger of the lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church A mā may truly speake as much of the Romishe churche for some truthe is taught by some Papists yea some truth is taught by some Iewe Turke When therfore you say that in this church neither the worde is truly preached nor the sacramēts sincerely ministred nor yet Ecclesiasticall discipline which thre in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is sayde to be the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian church is knowne and also condemne our mynisterie as Popish and vnlawfull with the whole gouernment of Vix ▪ signifieth somtime non our Church as you do in playne termes may it not be truely sayde that you affirme vs in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Furthermore what doth this word scarce helpe the matter doth it not importe as much it is a rule in Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that vvhich is scarce done is not done T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answere to the Articles collected out of the Admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors booke where I haue shewed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise than eytherit meameth or speaketh wherevnto I will referre the Reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the Admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not passe by the secrete Philosophie whereby M. Doctor woulde proue that the Authors of the Admonition affirme it For sayth he by y e rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is scarse done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taught neyther in Academia nor in stoa nor Lyceo I haue redde Quod fere fit non fit that which is almost done is not done But I neuer remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tongue those things which are sayd to be scarce are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a man sayth that there is scarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speach of things which are as when it sayth the iust man shall scarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answered Io. Whitgifte I proue by their owne manifest woordes that they in déede affirme that we in England are not yet come to the outwarde face of a Church agreable to Gods worde all whiche proofes you omit and let passe cauilling onely at this woorde scarce which is a manifest What y ◠word vix importeth argument of a wrangler And yet is not this manner of speaking Quod vix sit non sit so straunge Philosophie as you would gladly haue it for this woorde vix eyther signifieth with violence great difficultie to do a thing or else it is referred to the time or else it signifieth non as in Ouide vix Priamus tanti that is non tanti Priamus as Donatus doth expoūd it I thinke you will not haue it to be taken in the first significatiō by the Authors of y e Admonitiō for then there is no sense in their wordes if it be taken in either of the latter significations as it must of necessitie be then the Philosophie is not secrete ▪ but open and knowne to euery yong Grammarian In our English phrase it is commonly taken for non as when we say a thing is Vix in english commonly taken for non scarce done we signifie that is not yet done Likewise when a man sayth that he is scarce well he meaneth that he is not well He hath scarce made an end of his sermon ▪ y t is he hath not made an end of his sermon It is scarce ix of y e clocke that is it is not yet ix of the clocke Euen so we are scarce come to the outward forme of a church rightly reformed c. that is we are not yet come c. Euery child y t cā speake knoweth this to be so When the scripture saith that a iust man shall scarce be saued this woorde vix is taken in y e first significatiō that is with great difficultie in this signification it is oftētimes taken in the scripture but so can it not be in their manner of speach Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 2. They will haue the mynisters to be called allowed and placed by the people You say that this Article is falsified yet their wordes in that place of their Admonition be these Then election was made by the cōmon consent of the whole Churche And a litle after Then no mynister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people Wherfore the collection is very true and they belike ashamed of their
y ◠same also was vnder the Bishop of the citie Quod si amplior erat ager qui sub eius episcopatu erat quà m vt sufficere omnibus episcopi munijs vbique possit per ipsum agrum designabantur certis locis presbyteri qui in minoribùs negotijs eius vices obirent eos vocabant borepiscopos quòd per ipsam prouinciam episcopum representabant M. Beza lib. conf cap. 7 calleth the names of Archbishops Bishops c. Holie names for thus he sayth That Pastors in proces of tyme were distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those whome they nowe call Curates that is such as be appoynted to euery Parishe was not in the respect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therfore concerning the office of preaching the word and administring the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixte Archebishops Bishops and Curates for all are bounde to feede their flocke with the same breade and therefore by one common name in the Scriptures they bee called Pastours and Bishops But what impudencie is there in those men meaning the Papistes to vse those holie names and therfore to glorie of the succession of the Apostles and true Bishops In the same chapter he maketh two kynds of degrées vsed in the Papistical Churche the one vnknowne to the Apostles to the primitine church the other taken out of the word of God and from the primitiue Church In this second order he placeth Archebishops Curates Can ns Seniors or Ministers Archedeacons Deanes Subdeacons Clearkes But what should I stand longer in this matter There is not one writer of credit y t denieth this superioritie to haue bin always among the clergie and these degrées to come euen from the best tyme of the Church since the Apostles and so be both most auncient and generall Wherfore I can not but compt suche as denie so manifest a truthe eyther vnlearned and vnskilful persons or else verie wranglers and men desirous of contention A briefe comparison betvvixt the Bishops of our tyme and the Bishops of the primitiue Churche Chap. 8 I Knowe that comparisons be odious neither would I vse them at this tyme but that I am thervnto as it wer compelled by the vncharitable dealing of T. C. who by comparing the Bishops of our time with the Bishops in the olde Churche hath soughte by that meanes to disgrace them if it were possible I may peraduenture in this point sée me to some to flatter but the true iudgement therof I leaue to him that knoweth the secretes of the heart In the meane tyme I will affirme nothing which is not euident to all those that be learned diuines and not ouer ruled with affection My compar ion shal consist in these thrée points Truthe of doctrine Honestie of lise and right vse of externall things Touching the fyrst that is truth of doctrine I shall not néed much to labour For I think T. C. and his adherents wil not denie but that the doctrin taught professed by our Bishops at this day is much more perfect and sounder than it commonly was in any age after the Apostles time For the most part of the auncientest Bishops were deceyued with that grosse opinion of a thousande yeares after the resurrection wherein Euse. lib. 3. cap. 39. 35. the kingdome of Christe should here remaine vpon earth The fautors whereof were called M llenarij Papias who liued in Polycarpus and Ignatius his tyme béeing Bishop of erusalem was the first author of this errour and almost all the moste auncient fat ers were infected with the same Cyprian and the whole Councel of Carthage erred in rebaptisatiō Cyprian himself To. con 1. Lib. epi. 2. ep 3. also was greatly ouerseene in making it a matter so necessarie in the celebration of the Lords Supper to haue water mingled with wyne which was no doubt at y ◠tyme cōmon to moe than to him but the other opinion which he confuteth of vsyng water only is more absurd and yet it had at that tyme patrones among the Bishops Howe greatly were almost all the Bishops learned writers of the greke church yea and the Latines also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merites of inuocation of Sainctes suche lyke Surely you are not able to recken in any age since the Apostles tyme any companie of Bishops that taught helde so sound perfect doctrine in all poynts as the Bishops of England do at this tyme. If you speake of Ceremonies of the syncere administration of the sacraments you shall finde the like difference for compare the cerenionies that Tertullian sapet lib. decoro mil. then to be vsed in the Churche about the Sacraments and otherwise or those that Basile reherseth Lib. de Sancto spi. or suche as we may reade to haue bin in S. Augustins tyme with those that we nowe reteine in this Churche and you can not but acknowledge that therin we are come to a far greater perfection I meane not to stande in particulars I thinke T. C. and his companions wil not contende with me in this poynt for if they doe it is but to maynteyncontention Seing then that in the truthe of doctrine which is the chief and principall point oure Bishops be not only comparable with the olde Bishops but in many degrées to be preferred before them we thinke there is tootoo great iniurie done vnto them and to this doctrine whiche they professe when as they are so odiously compared and so contemptuously intreated by T. C. and his Colleags 2 Touching honestie of life which is the second point I wil not say much I do not think but that therin they may be compared with the old Bishops also and in some points preferred euery age hath some imperfectiōs in it and the best men are most subiect to the slanderous tong Great contention ther was among the Bishops in the Councell of Nice insomuch that euen in the presence of the Emperour they ceased not to libell one against an other What bitternesse and cursing was there betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostome what affectionate dealyng of Theophilus agaynste the same Chrysostome what iarring betwixt Hierome and Augustine But I wil not prosecute this Men be they neuer so godly yet they be men the cōm n sorte of people when they waxe wearie of the worde of God truely preached then doe they begin to depraue the true and chiefe ministers of the same 3 For the third poynt that is the vse of external things if the ishops nowe haue more land liuing than Bishops had then it is the blessing of God vpon his church and it is commodious for the state and time If any man abuse himself therin let him be reformed let not his fault be made a pretence to cloke a minde desirous to spoyle I sée not how those lands and liuings can be imployed to more bene ite of y e churche cōmoditie of the
sacrifices and so had they The Gentiles in worshipping their Gods vsed externall pompe of garments of golden and siluer vessels and such like and so did they yea diuers learned men be of this iudgement that God did prescribe vnto the Israelites that solemne manner and forme of worshipping him by externall rites and ceremonies shortly after their returne out of Egypt that they being therewith not onely occupyed but also delighted should haue no desire to retourne into Egypt or to worship their Gods whome they had séene with great solemnitie of ceremonies and externall rites adored And therefore you ground your talke vpō false principles which you haue not proued but imagined Now if we may haue ceremonies common with them or like vnto them from whome we whollie differ in matter and substance of religion as we do from th Gentiles and from the Turkes muche more may we haue Ceremonies common with them or like vnto them from whome we do not wholly diff r in mat er and substance but in certaine materiall and substantiall points As for this your saying That it were better for vs to conforme our indifferent Ceremonies to the Turks which are farre off than to the Papists which are so neare I take it to be but spoken in a heate and that you will otherwise thinke when you haue better considered the matter the one being a professed enimie vnto Christ and the name of Christ the other pretending the contrary But to put you out of doubt we do not in any kinde of ceremonies conforme We conforme not our selues to the Papists in ceremonies Tit. 1. our selues to the Papists but vsing Christian libertie in externall thinges knowing that al things be cleane to those that be cleane such things as we find instituted by learned and godly men and profitable to the Church as perteyni g to e ifying or comelinesse and order though abused of the Papists we reteine in our Churches and restore to the right vse as our forefathers did the Temples of Idols turning Tract 7 cap 5 diuis 3. 4. them to Christian Churches and reuenewes consecrated to Idolls transposing them to find the ministers of the Church and such like as I haue declared in an other place Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. Common reason also doth teach that contraries are cured by their contraries now Christianitie and Antichristianitie the Gospell poperie be contraries therfore Antichristianitie must be cured not by it selfe but by that which is as much as may be contrary vnto it Therefore a medled and mingled estate of the order of the Gospell and the ceremonies of poperie is not the best way to banish poperie and therefore as to abolish the infection of false doctrine of the Papists it is necessary to establish a diuers doctrine and to abolish the tyrannie of the popish gouernment necessary to plant the discipline of Christ so to heale the infection that hath crepte into mens minds by reason of the popish order of seruice it is meete that the other order were put in place thereof Io. Whitgifte Contraries must be cured by contraries in all things wherein they be contrary Christianitie How contraries must be cured by contraries and Antichristianitie the Gospell and poperie be not in all things cōtrary touching outward professiō and therfore no necessitie of abādoning all things frō Christianitie that was vsed in Antichristianitie So much of the papistical doctrine as is contrary to the Gospell that kind of gouernment in the Popes Church that is repugnant to the word of God all such order of seruice or kind of prayer as is vngodly and superstitious is to be remoued and cured with the contrary but as they haue some truth in doctrine so haue they some lawfull kind of gouernment and good and godly prayers all which being restored to their owne puritie are to be reteyned for no abuse can so defile any thing that is good that the same thing may not be vsed the abuse being taken away And yet if you would speake the truth you cannot say but that the order of the popish The order of popish seruice cleane altered in this church seruice is cleane altered in this Church for what similituds hath the vulgar tong with a tong vnknowne What likelihoode is there betwixt the multitude of ceremonies vsed by the Papists and the fewnes of such as are now reteyned How much doth the simplicitie vsed in our seruice differ from the pompe and gorgeousnesse vsed in theirs How contrary is our communion to their Masse What diuersitie is there in the celebration of our sacraments and theirs To be short the differēce is as much as eyther the worde of God or the state and condition of the Churche requireth the which you might sée if you were disposed but as I haue sayd before Caeca malitia non videt apertissima Blind malice seeth not those things that are most manifest Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103 Sect. 1. Philosophie which is nothing else but reason teacheth that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreame vnto vertue which is the meane that it is the best way to bring him as farre from that vice as may be and that it is safer and lesse harme for him to be led somewhat to farre than he should be suffered to remayne within the borders and confynes of that vice wherewith he i infected As if a man would bring a dronken man to sobrietie the best and neatest way is to cary him as farre from his excesse in drinke as may be and if a man coulde not keepe a meane it were better to fault in prescribing lesse than he should drinke than to faulte in giuing him more than he ought as we see to bring a sticke which is (*) A croked rule croked to be streight we do not only how it so farre vntill it come to be streight but we bend it so farre vntill we make it so croked of the other side as it was before of the first side to this end that at the last it may stand streight and as it were in the mid way betwene both the crokes which I do not therefore speake as though we ought to abolish one euill and hurtfull ceremonie for another but that I would shew how it is more daungerous for vs that haue bin plunged in the mire of Poperie to vse the ceremonies of it than of any other idolatrous and sperstitious seruice of God Io. Whitgifte The Replyer prescribeth a heathenish rule of retormation Rom. 3. Philosophie also teacheth that both the extreames be vices and therefore your rule dothe teache that a man must go from one vice to another if he will come to vertue whiche is a meane but Sainct Paule teacheth the contrary saying Non est faciendum malum vt inde veniat bonum VVe must not do euill that good may come thereof Wherefore as your rule is heathenish
where greate complaynte is made of this greeuous persecution when as you and your disciples cease not as I sayde moste falsely and slaunderously to reporte of suche as executing good lawes discharge theyr conscience to God and their duetie towardes the Prince We therefore exhorte you if there be any feare of God before your eyes any reuerence towards the Prince any desire of promoting the Gospell any louing affection towardes the Church of Christe to submit your selues according to your dueties to godly orders to leaue off contentiousnesse to ioyne with vs in preaching of the word of God and beating downe the kingdome of Antichriste that thys your diuision procure not Gods wrath to be poured vpon vs. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authours of the Admonition whiche declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe saithe that therefore they will not subscribe bycause they are required by lawfull authoritie which how both presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whiche hath bin declared And where M. Doctor would vpon y ◠marginal note pr y t we haue good discipline bycause we haue good doctrine ther vpon doth wonderfully triumph he playeth as he of whome it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is hauing gotten nothing holdeth it fast For can M. Doctor be so ignorant that this manner of speach doctrine and discipline cannot be s uered is vsed of that that they ought not to be seuered ▪ when as we say following S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth do we not meane that we ought to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife but for the cause of A ultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therefore this is as all men may see a meere cauill and triumph ouer his owne shadow There is no bragge of suffering made by the authours of the Admonition The modestie wherwith he hath defended this cause cannot be hidden That he would haue other men punished for well doing when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth should be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Io. Whitgifte I speake of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine which they confesse to be sound vsing a godly interpretation in a poynt or two c. what other abuses so euer there be in the booke of common prayer or in the Church yet that is no sufficient cause why they shoulde refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church and conteyned in those Articles Wherefore séeing they confesse them to be sound and yet denie to subscribe who can otherwise iudge of them than I haue signifyed in my Answer I acknowledge my selfe to be ignorante that in this and suche like phrases thys Can is not taken for ought if it be spoken simply word Can is taken for ought When Saint Paule saithe that we can do nothing againste the truth he meaneth simply as he speaketh and doth not there vse Can for ought For indeede we can do nothing against the truth though we do the worst we can It is no vsuall phrase but an vnproper kind of speach to say that a man cannot do a thing when he should say that he ought not to do it except he adde some thing as he cannot do it lawfully or well or orderly and such like Wherefore my dulnesse is such that I cannot vnderstande suche darke speaches vntill they be interpreted and yet whether they woulde so interprete themselues or no it maye be doubted If they bragge not of persecution wherevnto tende these wordes of theirs this is that we striue for about which we haue suffered not as euill doers c. and quote in the margent to proue it 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels How immodest soeuer I am in defending this cause yet if it be compared eyther to Schismatiks deserue to be sharply reproued their passing bitternesse or to your spitefull speaches and vnséemely tauntes and iestes I shall appeare tootoo simple and although I must néedes say thus much that disturbers of the common peace of the Churche and Schismatikes deserue to be with sharpe wordes reproued yet haue not I vsed that sharpenesse and bitternesse whyche diuerse learned menne bothe olde and newe haue vsed in the lyke case If I haue done any man wrong let him come foorth and proue it and I will render vnto him quadruple T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3. Finally as you exhort vs to submitte ourselues to good order whiche haue bin alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne with you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and will not suffer vs to preache so we exhort you in Gods behalfe and as you will once answer it before the iust iudge that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not against it Wherefore we pray you to take heede that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honoure which you are in nor the hope which you may haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by mainteining that whiche you haue once set downe nor the sleighey suggestion of craftie and wyly Papists do driue you to stumble against this truth of God which toucheth the gouernment of his Church and the purging of those corruptions whiche are amongst vs knowing that you cannot stumble vpon the word of God but foorthwith you runne yourselfe against Christ which is the rocke And you know that he will not giue back but breaketh all to fitters whatsoeuer that rusheth against him Io. Whitgifte You do not submit your selues to the order of the Church which is a good and decent order you haue filled the Churche with maruellous contentions and haue strangely deuided euen such as professe the Gospell your mouthes are not stopped but through your owne procuring I do not withstand that which you vntruly call the truth for any such cause as you surmise God who seeth my hart knoweth but bycause I sée these your deuises to be set downe by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God agaynste the practise and order of the primitiue Churche tending also to daungerous errours and meere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth T. C. Page 172. Sect. vlt. And if the matter herein alleadged do not satisfye you then I desire euen before the same GOD that you confute it not by passing ouer thynges whyche you can not answer or by stauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansie to confuce or by wrougling
1. COR. 8. 2. If any man thinke that he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to knowe ¶ THE DEFENSE of the Aunswere to the Admonition against the Replie of T. C. BY IOHN VVHITGIFT Doctor of Diuinitie In the beginning are added these 4. Tables 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the Replie 2 Of Falsifications and Untruthes 3 Of matters handled at large 4 A table generall If any man be contentious we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. 16. †Printed at London by Henry Binneman for Humfrey Toye Anno. 1574. GAL. 5. 26. Let vs not be desirous of vaineglorie prouoking one another enuying one another ¶ To the godlie Reader IT VVERE BVT A NEEDLESSE labour to make any particular recitall of those pointes of doctrine vvhich this Church of Englande at this day doth holde and maintayne for they be at large set out in sundrie english bookes and especially in the Apologie of the Church of Englande and the Defense of the same summarily also collected together in the boke of Articles agreed vpon in the Conuocation at London Anno 1562. c. this I dare boldely affirme that all pointes of Religion necessarie to saluation and touching eyther the mysterie of our redemption in Chryst or the right vse of the Sacramentes and true manner of vvorshipping God are as purely and perfectely taught and by publike authoritie established in this Church of England at this day as euer they vvere in any church sithence the Apostles time or novv be in any reformed Church in the vvorld the vvhich to be true those that be learned euen among the myslikers of this present state can not nor vvill not denie Likevvise that all Heresies all corrupt doctrines all superstitious and papisticall opinions haue bene and be by the Prince and the Realme banished by the learned Byshops and Preachers in vvorde and in vvriting confuted vvho is so blinded vvith malice that he cannot see or so frovvard and vvilfull that he vvil not confesse VVhat shall vvethen think of those men that are so farre from acknovvledging this singular and vnspeakeable benefite proceeding from the mere mercie of God so farre from being thankfull for the same from desiring the continuance of it vvith heartie prayers that by all meanes possible they seek rather to obscure it and to deface it bicause in certaine accidentall poynts they haue not their fantasies and proper deuises If this be not to set themselues agaynst God and to trouble the peace of the Church for externall things vvhich is schismaticall let the quiet and godlie Christian iudge Hovve much better had it bene for them to haue proceeded in teaching necessarie pointes of doctrine and exhorting to obedience to concorde to godlie lyfe and conuersation than thus vvith no small reioycing of the vvicked great offence of the vveak Gospellers maruellous grief of the Queenes maiestie and other that haue the care of gouernment frovvardly to dysquiet and dysturb the Church trouble the happie peace of the cōmon vveale and hazard the vvhole state of Religion they shall one day if not to late vvell vnderstand Furthermore it behoueth all godlie mindes that vvill not be caried avvay vvith rash and ouerhastie iudgemēt in this cōtrouersie to cōsider not only that that I haue before spoken of the truth of doctrine publikely receyued and cōfirmed but also circumspectly to vveigh the circumstances of time place person and the vvhole state of things novve in this Church and Realme of Englande The regarde vvherof in mine opinion must needes cause in all discrete heades a staye of iudgement in comparison that the things themselues barely considered vvoulde do The state of this Church of Englande at this day God be thanked is not Heathenish Turkish or Papisticall in vvhich conditiō many things might be done that othervvise are not to be attempted but it is the state of a church reformed and by authoritie and consent settled not only in truth of doctrine as before is noted but also in order of thinges externall touching the gouernment of the Church and administration of the Sacramentes VVherefore the controuersie is not vvhether many of the thinges mentioned by the platformers vvere fitlie vsed in the Apostles time or may novv be vvell vsed in some places yea or be cōueniently vsed in sundrye reformed Churches at this day For none of these braunches are denyed neither do vve take vpon vs as vve are sclaundered either to blame or to condemne other Churches for such orders as they haue receiued most fit for their estats But this is the vvhole state of our controuersie vvhen vve of this Church in these perillous dayes do see that vve haue a greate number of hollovve hartes vvithin this Realme that daylie gape for alteratiō of Religiō and many mightie great enimies abroade busilie deuising and vvorking to bring the same to passe and to ouerthrovve the state both of religion and of the Realme vvhether seing vve haue a setled order in doctrine and gouernment receiued and confirmed by lavve it may stand vvith godlie and Christian vvisdome vvith disobedience to the Prince and lavve and vvith the vnquietnes of the Church and offence of many consciences to attempt so greate alteratiō as this platforme must needes bring and that for matters externall onlye and vvith such egernesse and bitternesse that they deface and discredite the vvhole state of this Church vvith al the Preachers and Ecclesiasticall gouernours of the same as remayning in horrible corruptions and Antichristian deformities and thereby fill the mouthes of the aduersaries vvith greater matter of obloquie to deface the gospell than euer of them selues they had bene able to deuise Surely I could neuer reade but that they that should so do vvere rather to be estemed troublesome and schismaticall defacers than zealous and godly reformers I knovve that no Church can be so perfect in all points of externall gouerment and ceremonies but that such as be disposed maye picke some occasion of quarrelling thereat thoughe vniustlie therefore the true members of the Church must not be to light of credit nor to redie to follovve contentious captaines For S. Paule sayeth Si quis sit contenfiosus inter vos c. If any be contentious among you we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God c. Againe vvhen any thing is amisse it must be considered vvhether the faultes be in the thinges themselues or in the persons for vve may not vvith partiall and corrupt iudgement impute the faultes of the persons to the things vvhether they be offices or ceremonies for then should vve continuallie bee altering the state and neuer stand stedfast in any kynde of gouernment therefore in such cases vve must seke to reforme the abuses in men vve must not pull avvaye the states and offices or the thinges themselues bicause they be abused by some men But to let this passe and come to the purpose this Replie of T. C. vvhich is of some counted
to the practise of the Church and truth and notorious vntruthes affirmed by him of the Answere to the Admonition with sundrie other grosse ouersights because I haue noted them in the margent and plainly detected them in my Defense to this Replier and are for the most part noted also in the Generall Table vnder these 3. titles Falsifications of the Replier T. C. charged with vntruth T. C. chargeth the Answere falsely Men may erre and be deceiued but either to speake nothing truly or often to fault in vntrue dealing cannot be a token of the spirite of truth the which spirite of truth God for his Christes sake graunt vnto all those that haue a heartie desire to know the truth FINIS A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPALL titles and matters handeled at large in this Booke AN answere to the Epistle Dedicated by T. C. too the Church of Englād c. pag. 1 An Epistle of the Author too the Church of England 17 An exhortation to the Ciuil ecclesiasticall Magistrates 31 An aunswere to the Preface of the Admonition 57 Tractatus 1. VVhether Christ forbiddeth rule and superioritie vnto mi nisters 61 The true interpretation of the 20 of Mathew c. Reges gentium c. Cap. 1. 61 The exposition of the place Math. 23. Cap. 2. 71 Tract 2. Of the authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76 Som things may be tollerated in the Church touching order ceremonies discipline kind of gouern ment not expressed in the woord of God Chap. 1. 76 The opinion of the auncient fathers and councelles of thinges indifferent Chap. 2 95 The opinion of Saint Augustine of things indifferent Chap. 3 99 The opinion of M. Caluine of things indifferent Chap. 4. 109 The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5 113 The expositiō of the places of Deut. 4. 12. quoted by the Admonition Chap. 6. 116 The opinion of other late writers of thinges indifferent Chap. 7. 126 Tract 3. Of the election of Ministers 132 Of the triall of Ministers both in lear ning and conuersation Chap. 1. pag. 132 VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers maye afterwardes be Ministers of the Gospell Chap. 2. 143 Of Ministers learning Catechismes Chap ▪ 3. 152 Of the election of Ministers by the voices and consent of the people Chap. 4. 154 An examinatiō of the reasons which T. C. vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie c. of elections by the people Chap. 5. 170 The diuersitie betwixt the Apostles times oures requireth a diuers kind of gouernement and of ordering of Ministers Chap. 6. 174 That Bishops haue authoritie to admit and ordeine Ministers Chap. 7. 194 It is not necessary that the people should haue interest in the election of Ministers but the contrary is conuenient Chap. 8. 211 Tract 4. Of Ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordering Ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets 216 Of Ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1 216 Of ceremonies vsed in ordeining Mi nisters Chap. 2. 225 Of Apostles Euangelists and Prophets Chap. 3. 228 Tract 5. Of Residence of the pastor Chap. 1. 235 Of pluralities or hauing moe benefices than one Chap. 2. 246 Tract 6. Of Ministers that cānot preach and of licences to preach 251 Some may be Ministers that cannot preach Chap. 1. 251 Of licences to preach Chap. 2 254 Tract 7. Of apparell of Ministers 256 The causes vvhy they refuse the Apparell examined Chap. 1. 256 That Ministers vvere knovvne in times past by distinct apparell Chap. 2. 261 That the Magistrate may appoynt a distinct apparell for Ministers Chap. 3. 264 The distinction of apparell vvas appointed before the Popes tiranny Chap. 4. 268 That the apparel now vsed is not Po pishe or Antichristian And that things inuented by euil men may be vsed of Christians Chap. 5. 271 Diuers thinges concerning apparell in other places of the Aunsvvere chap. 6. 282 The faultes vvherevvith the Admonitors charge the apparell aunswered Chap. 7 283 Tract 8. Of Archbishops Metropolitās Bishops Archdeacons c. pag. 297 The reasons of T. C. ansvvered wher by he goeth about to take awaye the superfluous loppe as hee termeth it of the offices chap. 1. 297 That the names of Metropolitane Archbishop c. be not Antichristian chap. 2. 318 The offices of Archbishops c. are not straung or vnheard of in Chri stes church and of superioritie among the Clergie chap. 3. 353 The defense of the ansvvere of maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops c. against the vnreuerend Reply of T. C. chap. 4 422 The causes of Archbishops and of their prerogatiue and the estate of the old Bishops assigned by T. C. examined Chap. 5. 435 Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our clergie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answer chap. 6. 453 A briefe collection of such authorities as are vsed in this defense of the authoritie of Archbishops Bishops Chap 7. 470 A briefe comparison of the Bishops of our time and the Bishoppes of the primitiue Church Chap. 8. pag. 47 Tract 9. Of the communiō booke 474. The generall faultes examined wher vvith the publike seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. 474 An examination of the particular faultes either in matter or forme whervvith the Booke of commō praier is charged Chap. 2. 487 Of Baptisme by women vvherwith the communion Booke is falsly charged Chap. 3. 503 Of ministring the sacraments in priuate places Chap. 4. 511 The sacraments ministred by other than Ministers Chap. 5. 515 Of priuate communion wherwith the Admonition chargeth the Booke of common prayer Chap. 6. 525. Of Churching of women 534 Tract 10. Of holydayes 538 Of holidayes in generall and that they maye bee appointed by the Church and of the vse of them Chap. 1. 538 Of Saints dayes Chap. 2. 543 Tract 11. VVhat kind of preachinge is most effectuall 555 Tract 12. Of preaching before the administration of the Sacraments 562. Tract 13. Of reading of the Scriptures 568. A comparison betvveene reading of Scriptures and preaching Chap. 1. page 568 That reading is preaching chap. 2. pag. 574 The profite of reading Scriptures in the Church chap. 3. 578 Tract 14. Of ministring and preachinge by Deacons 582 Tract 15. Of matters touching the communion 588 Of orders and ceremonies vsed in the celebration of the Communion chap. 1. 588 Of shutting men from the communion and compelling to communicate chap. 2. 603 Of playn and simple ministring and receyuing of the communion Chap. 3. 605 Tract 16. Of matters touching baptisme pag. 607 Of interrogatories ministred to infantes Chap. 1. 607 Of Godfathers and their promise Chap. 2 612 Of fontes and crossing in baptisme Chap. 3. pag. 614 Of the parties that are to bee baptised Chap. 4 619 Tract 17. Of the Seigniorie or gouernement by Seniors 626 VVhether there were such as the Ad monition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation chap. 1. 626 VVhether the gouernement by
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
of so many good kings so many hundreth yeares to haue omitted the feastes of Tabernacles expressely by God commaunded Although I do not denie but suche men also may sometimes be ouerséene in some points but neither can you proue that they were deceiued in any substantiall point of doctrine neither yet if they were is this place aptly or truly alleadged The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 8. The dignitie also and high estate of those which are not so earnest in this cause can not hinder it if we consider the wisedome of God almost from time to time to consist and to shew it selfe most in setting foorth his truth by the simpler and weaker sort by cōtemptible and weake instruments 1. Cor. I. by things of no valew to the end that whē al men see the basenesse and rudenesse of the instrument they might the more wonder at the wisedome and power of the artificer which with so weake and foolish instruments bringeth to passe so wise and mightie things And if mē will with such an eye of fiesh looke vpon matters they shal condemne that excellent reformation made vnder the Godly king * Iosias is here alleadged for Ezechias Iosias which the holy Ghost doth so highly cōmēd In which it is witnessed that the (1) This place is not right interpreted Leuites 2. Chro. which were a degree vnder the priests were more forward and more zelous than the priests 29. Chap. themselues Yea wherein it is witnessed that the people were yet more earnest and more willing 2. Chro. than either the Leuites or the priests which thing if euer is verefyed in our time For whē (2) A manifest flatterie and the scripture abused to coloure it I cōsider the zeale for religion which sheweth it selfe in many as well of the nobilitie 30. Chap. and gentrie of this realme as of the people their care to continue it and aduaunce it their voluntary charges to mainteine it their liberalitie towards them which bend themselues that way as I do thereby conceiue some hope of the fauorable countenaunce and cōtinuaunce of Gods goodnesse towards vs So I cannot be but ashamed of mine owne slackensse and afraid of the displeasure of the Lorde for that those whose proper worke this is especially and which shoulde beare the standard and carrie the torch vnto the rest are so cold and so carelesse in these matters of the Lord. Io. Whitgifte I knowe none among vs which in the respect of his dignitie and high estate séeketh or desireth to be preferred or beleued before you but in the respect of the cause which is the peace of the Church suppression of schismes and the truth it selfe No man denieth but God of his wisedome in the beginning of the Church of Christ poured God vseth not the simple only or alwayes to set foorthe his truth out his gifts more plenteously vpon the simpler contemptible and weaker sorte and that he choosed for his Apostles fishermen tollegatherers and ignorant persons lest that shoulde be ascribed to the wit eloquence and learning of man which commeth only of the goodnesse might and power of God as the Apostle plainly declareth 1. Cor. 1. 2. But will you therefore conclude that truth zeale and godlinesse remayneth either only or especially in the simple rude and ignorant sort and make thys your conclusion the learned the honorable men of great countenance or knowledge be of this or that opinion Ergo it is not true Or the simple rude and ignorant people ar thus and thus perswaded Ergo they must be followed or to the like effect Uerely this were to reason as the Franciscan friers do to excuse their ignorance Apostoli nesciebant literas ergo Franciscanis non est opus literis And like some other phantastical persons also which thinke that no learned rich or honorable man shall be saued but only beggers and such as be ignorant as master Gualter testifyeth in his commentaries vpon 1. Cor. 1. Gual in 1. Cor. I. hom 7. You know as I suppose that this place of the. 1. Cor. 1. quoted in your margent doth not gather any suche conclusion that therefore the doctrine is not true bycause Princes nobles wise and learned men c. do allow of it or therefore it is true bycause it pleaseth the simple rude and ignorant people For Nicodemus Ioseph Lazarus Betha Sergius Paulus Dionisius Areopagita Crispus Gaius Erastus with diuers others were politique wise welthy learned and honorable men and the Prophete Esay saithe That kings and Queenes shall be the nursing fathers and mothers the defenders and mainteiners of the Churche And Bullinger in his cōmentaries vpō Esay 49. this place doth thus expounde it He speaketh of the first calling especially wherein fishermen Bull. in 1. Co. I. and Idiots were especially called to the preaching of the Gospell For no man can denie but that after the Gospell was confirmed in the world the best learned imbraced the truth For first shepherds declared that Christ was borne then the Magi that is the wise men of the East came to salute him with gifts Wherefore I pray you let not the wealthe calling or dignitie which you thinke we haue preiudice our cause The simple and plaine meaning of the place is that God in his electing to eternall life hath neyther respect to nobilitie learning riches or any such thing I might héere againe trippe you for alleadging Iosias in stead of Ezechias and say that you had not read the Scriptures or that you vsed other mens notes and so dallie with you as you vse to do with others But I will leaue such kind of gibes to brabling Sophisters in the schooles thinke that it was some light ouersight which in such a case may sometimes happen to him that is most circumspect Your collection vpon that place 2. Chro. 29. and. 30. I can not as yet allowe vntill I be better instructed therein for wheras you saye that it is there witnessed that the Leuites which were a degree vnder the Priestes were more forward and more zelous than the Priests themselues and the people more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the Priests I sée not how you can gather any suche thing out of either of these two Chapters for if there be any sentence to gather it of in the. 29. Chap. it is the. 34. verse which although in some translation it séeme to insinuate some such thing yet if credite may be giuen to those that be notable learned men and very wel séene in the Hebrue song the meaning of that place is nothing lesse Pellicane translateth the words thus Leuitae quippe faciliori ritu sanctificantur quam sacerdotes For the Leuites were sooner or easyer sanctifyed than the priests which he expoundeth more plainly in hys Pel. in 2. Chr. 29. commentaries saying Intelligitur sacerdotum numerum imminutum fuisse c. It is to bee vnderstanded that the number of
no such weight then can you not excuse eyther your selfe or them In déed the Papists haue no iust matter of reioycing for they disagrée both in me also in far greater matters thā these be euen in y e chiefest points of their religion but this is no sufficient excuse for vs we may not disagrée in truth bicause they disagrée in error Neither ought the weak to be offended bicause such cōtentions haue bin vsual in the Church as I haue also shewed in myne Epistle dedicatorie to the Churche of England But yet wo be vnto those by whome suche offences come T. C. And it is to be remembred that these controuersies for the most part are not betwene many For sundry of those things which are cōprehended in the answer to the Admonition haue as I am persuaded few fauorers of those especially which are of any stayed or soūder iudgement in y e scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other Churches so that in deed the father of that answere excepted we haue this controuersie oftentimes rather with the Papistes than with those whiche professe the Gospell as we doe Io. Whitgifte Certainly I do not willingly defend any thing against the word of God or of mine own priuate persuasion but I haue either sufficient warrant of the worde of God or some godly lerned zelous authors iudgement for the same If I haue done otherwise I trust I shal heare of it in this booke but I am fully persuaded that all men of stayed and sound iudgement ioyne with me in these matters such especially as haue had the beste experience of the order and gouernment of other reformed Churches for proofe whereof I referre you to the wisest godlyest and best learned among the clergie in this lande T. C. And where as last of all it is sayde that this precedeth of enuie of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause whiche is neither enuious singular nor popular and although they be such as might be seuerally by greate likelyhodes probabilities refuted yet bicause the knowledge of these things pertaineth only to God which is the searcher of the heart raynes and for auoyding of to much tediousnesse we will reste in his iudgement tary for the day wherin the secretes of hearts shal be made manifest And yet all men doe see how vniustly we be accused of singularitie * Notable vntruths as wil fal out in triall which propound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teache the writers both olde and newe for the moste parte affirme the examples of the Primitiue Churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme Io. Whitgifte Whether if procéede of enuie or no lette the manner bothe of their and your writings declare Popularitie you can not auoyde séeing you séeke so greate an equalitie committe so many thyngs to the voyces of the people and in sundrye places so greately magnifye and extoll them than the whyche thrée what can bée more popular Singularitie and the properties therof It is Singularitie to deuyde youre selfe from that Churche whyche bothe professe the woorde of God truely and is not to bée touched in any poynte of doctrine necessarie to saluation It is true that a godly learned writer sayth Charitie Musc. in 〈◊〉 Mat. knittes together and reconcileth singularitie cutteth in peeces and diuideth it is the beginning and roote of all heresie to hate contemne the cōmunion of the church And a little after There be some contentious persons whom no church can please always hauing some thing to blame in other but nothing in themselues which is a manifest signe of singularitie But bicause the mindes and affections of men are certainly knowne only to God the determinate iudgement hereof I also referre vnto him As for this bolde assertion that you propeund nothing that the scriptures doe not teach c. howe true it is must hereafter by examination appeare The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 13. All these accusations as wel against the cause as the fauourers therof albeit they be many and diuers yet are they no other thā which haue bin long sithens in the Prophets apostles our sauior Christs now of late in our times obiected against the truth the professors therof And therefore as y e sunne of the truth then appered brake through al those clouds which rose against it to stop the light of it so no doubt this cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those sclanders could not bring the truth in disgrace with those y t loued it so the children of y e truth through these vntrue reports wil neither leaue the loue of this cause which they haue alredy cōceiued nor yet ceasse to enquire diligently to iudge indifferētly of those surmises which are put vp aagaynst it Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course which men of any sect though not truly wil apply vnto thēselues if they be otherwise delt with than they can wel beare The truth certainly can not be kept vnder by any meanes and yet sometime error ouershadoweth the truth euen as the cloudes do the Sunn My hope also is that men will not be caried away with slaunderous reportes ▪ for if they shoulde then musre you néedes preuayle but with sounde reasons and the truth of the cause The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 14. Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercōmed al these lets climed ouer them when they wer cast in our way to hinder vs from cōming frō the grosse darknesse of Poperie vnto y e glorious light of the Gospel there is no cause why now they shuld stay our course to further perfection cōsidering that neither the stile is higher now thā it was before being the very selfe same obiections in all this time we ought so to haue grown in knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the Gospell that they shoulde be as the feete of a hynde able to surmount euen a wall if neede were Io. Whitgifte There is but one truth that is certain whē we haue obteined if we must therin remain constant without altering whosoeuer shal ouerleap or ouerrun this wall must of necessitie procure vnto himself great danger and therfore according to the olde prouerbe Looke before thou leape We must grow in faith knowledge always be growing going forward but it doth not therfore follow y t we must dayly inuent new opinions or broach new dectrines alter in iudgement we must grow in strength of faith we must increace in practise and loue of vertue we must studie to encrease our knowledge that we may be the more confirmed in the truthe that we haue learned out of the worde of God This is an euill collection we must grow in the knowledge of
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
vnderstanding thereof Your great wordes doe not answere the matter I feare not the insufficiencie of my pen I thanke God neither is there any cause why I should for the truth hath alwayes a plentifull defense whereas error and schisme is compelled to vse arrogant opprobrious and contemptuous speaches to maintaine it selfe Of all other T. C. hath least cause to complaine of such extremitie or to speake in this maner I haue much more cause to accuse his vndutifull and vnthankefull nature If Charitie be not suspitious why do you then thus not suspecte but directly giue sentence that it is not for want of good will that I doe not accuse them of Anabaptisme 〈◊〉 it not lawfull for me to suspect and is it lawfull for you to condemne You tooke vpon you to reproue me before for iudging and can you fall so sone into it your selfe 〈◊〉 déede charitie is not suspicious without iust and lawfull causes but whether the causes be iust or no let those iudge to whom it doth especially appertaine Io. Whitgifte The first article pag 2. Sect. 1. First Anabaptisme tendeth to this ende that in those places where the Gospell hath bin for a time preached and where Churches be reformed the Gospell may be hindered the Churches disquieted the simple brought to doubt of the Religion that hath bene taughte them contentious and vnquiet mindes may haue matter to worke on the preaching of the Gospell become odious finally that Magistrates and such as be in authoritie may be contemned and despised of their subiectes and inferiours T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 2. It is all true you heere alleadge of the Anabaptistes God be praysed there is nothing of it true in vs. If through these questions moued the Churche be disquieted the disquietnesse riseth in that the truth and sinceritie which is offered is not receyued We seeke it in no tumultuous manner but by humble sute vnto them to whom the redresse of things pertayne and by teaching as our callings will suffer If all those are to be counted in the way to Anabaptisme which moue controuersies when the Gospell is preached (*) The ca is 〈◊〉 thing lyke Then those that taught that the Gentiles weare to be preached vnto when as the most of the beleeuing Iewes which likewise preached the Gospell thoughte otherwise are to be counted in the way of Anabaptisme Likewise those that preached that circumcision was not necessarie vnto saluation when as a greate number of Christians at the first thought it necessarie Then Maister Zumglius and Decolampadius smelt of Anabaptisme which went aboute to ouerthrowe diuers things which Maister Luther helde I coulde goe further with this but I content my selfe with these examples If any be brought in doubt or hatred of the truth hereby or any man take occasion to be contentious it is not in the nature of the doctrine which is taught but in the corruption of their mindes nor it is not offence giuen but taken nor this doctrine can be no more charged than the rest of the Gospell which is a * sworde that cutteth a Citie or kingdome in sunder and setteth a * fire where Mat. 10. 34. there was none and putteth contention betwene the father and the sonne But what is to giue an Luc. 12. 49. incurable offence vnto the simple and matter to the enimie to reioyce in to all good Christians of teares and weeping if this be not to make the worlde thinke that numbers of those which professe the Gospell are infected with the poyson of Anabaptisme which can not be touched with the smalest poynt of it As for the Magistrate and authoritie we acknowledge the lawfulnesse necessitie A good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnfayne and singular commoditie of it we commende it in our sermons to others we pray for them as for those of whose good or euill estate hangeth the flourishing or decay of the common wealth and Church both We loue them as our Fathers and Mothers we feare them as our Lordes and Maisters and we obey them in the Lord and for the Lorde If there be any thing wherein we do not according to that which is commaunded it is bycause we can not be perswaded in our consciences that we may so doe whereof we are readie to render a reason out of the word of God and if that will not serue forthwith to submitte our selues to that punishment that shall be awarded against vs. And herein we first call the Lorde God to witnesse of our meaning and then we referre our selues to the consciences of all men in the sight of God Io. Whitgifte Nothing is here sayde of you in the defense of the authors of the Admonition but the Anabaptistes will say the same in theirs Let the like effectes procéeding from the like causes and in like manner iudge the likelyhoode betwixte the Anabaptistes and them One of the chiefe notes that are giuen of Anabaptistes by Zuinglius in his Zuinglius booke called Ecclesiastes and in his other bookes where he speaketh of them is that they sowe discorde and contention in those Churches where the Gospell hath bene truely preached and that about externall matters as it may more at large appeare in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition And tell me I praye you what Churche hath any of them setled themselues in but in such wherin the Gospell hath bene well The admonitors iustly accused of contention planted before or in what place haue they for any time remayned where they haue not with contention and factions troubled not that place onely but the whole countrey rounde aboute in lyke manner Surely if they preached doctrine necessarie to saluation that is the Gospell and in those places wherein the Gospell is not receyued then if contentions shoulde arise the cause were not to be ascribed vnto them but vnto their hearers onely but seyng they ran not teache the Gospell more sincerely than it is taught and seyng the matters they contend for be not of such necessitie that the Churches should for them be disquieted seyng also that they séeke reformation as they call it neither in due time due place nor before méete persons And finally seyng contentions are raised by them in those places where the Gospell is receiued I sée not howe they can auoyde the iust accusation of contentieus persons and disturbers of the peace of the Church For if you aske of the time the Admonition was published after the Parliament to the which it was dedicated was ended If you Their disorder in publishing the Admonition speake of the place it was not exhibited in Parliament as it ought to haue bene but spred abroade in corners and sent into the Countrey If you inquire of the persons it came first to theyr handes who had least to doe in reforming Likewyse your sermons of these matters when preache you them surely euen in this troublesome Their disorder in preaching and tumultuous tyme when there
denie the maner of callyng Ministers in this Churche of Englande to be lawfull for that maner of callyng is not to be ascribed to this Churche which is vsed in some conuenticles and secrete congregations but that which is allowed by publike and common authoritie Your distinction of lawfull and ordinarie is not simply good for whatsoeuer is lawfull Lauful is ordinarie in a Church established in a Church established that is ordinarie I think that euen very cōmon reason dothe teache this to be true Wherfore certaynly if our ministerie bée lawfull it is ordinarie If any Parishe in Englande doe electe or call their ministers otherwyse than the orders and Lawes of thys Churche dothe permitte I can not sée howe that Parishe can excuse it selfe of schisme and I thinke verilye that suche Parishes ought to bée looked too in tyme. I doe not well vnderstande ▪ what you meane by these wordes in suche sorte as the examples of the Scripture doe shewe to haue bene doone before the Eldership and gouernmente of the Churche bee established What examples bée these you quote no places where to fynde them ▪ Or when was the gouernmente of the Churche and Eldershyp established If you had more playnly expressed these two thyngs wée myghte haue the better vnderstoode youre meanyng But belyke these Parishes doo not call theyr Ministers in all poyntes accordyng to the rule that you woulde haue prescribed and therfore you make an Interim of it vntill your gouernment be fully finished This is your dealyng to allowe of all things doone out of order yea though it bée against your owne order so that it tende to the derogation of publike and common order Whether they saye that the Gospell is not truely preached in this Churche of Englande The Admomtors denye the Gospell to be truly preached in Englande or no looke in the whole discourse of their booke and in the seconde Admonition page 6. where you may fynde these wordes I saye that we are so scarce come to the outwarde face of a Churche ryghtely reformed that althoughe some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no preacher maye without greate daunger of the Lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God it is so circumscribed and wrapte within the compasse of suche statutes suche penalties suche imunctions suche Aduertisementes suche Articles suche sober Caueats Seconde Admonition pag. 6. and suche manyfolde pamphlets that in manner it dothe but peepe out from behynd the screene What say you to these wordes how can you salue them Whether they generally call all the Ministers of the Gospell which be not on their secte Phariseys or no lette the whole discourse of bothe the Admonitions iudge and that Pamphlet entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherlye with theyr brethren In my answer to which pāphlet I proue that this name Pharisey doth much more aptely agrée vnto the Authors thereof and suche lyke than to the Bishops and other ministers whome they so often call by that name and so odiously compare them together in that pamphlet I must once tell you agayne that I make no argumentes here I doe but onely compare their qualities and conditions I haue performed my promise if I 〈◊〉 not shewe me wherin I peruert not the meaning of the Anabaptistes ▪ but set down the verie woordes of M. Bullinger worde for worde without any addition tion or alteration it had bene well if you had examined the places better Touchyng the falsification and vntruthe you charge mée with I thynke you be not in good earnest it is but bycause you could no longer temper your heate for you make manie of these outcryes but I suppose you vse them only as meanes to caste vp your melancholie whyche you call zeale Whatsoeuer I there speake of the Anabaptistes I fyndeit in the same forme of woordes in those leaues of M Bullingers booke whiche I haue quoted in the Margent Pervse with a little more diligence Fol. 18. where he hath these wordes Quod stipendia babeant non laborent atque ideo ventris ministri sunt and the. 102. And if you fynd not there word for worde all this that I haue here spoken touchyng the stipendes and liuings of ministers and in the same forme of wordes then vse your hotte Rhetorike but I knowe they 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idem 〈◊〉 be there and you reproue you can not tell what If this so greately trouble you I wil tell you what Zuinglius also sayth of this matter in his Ecclesi istes where he speaking of Anabaptists sayth thus They teach that suche can not preache the Gospell syncerely whiche haue benefices but their hope is to haue the true Pastors expelled that they may succeede in their places and yet they publikely protest that they seeke for no liuing Nowe whether you or your men agrée with them in this poynt or no I neyther Zuingl in Eccles. denie nor affirme if you be prickte I can not blame you thoughe you kicke Neither do I say that those ought to haue stipends which labour not I do but report Bullingers wordes of the Anabaptistes I woulde haue no man exempted from due reprehension I only reporte this to shewe the malitious spirites of the Anabaptistes agaynst the ministers of the woorde that it maye be knowne of what societie they may bée suspected to bée whose talke is wholly bente against the Ministers of the woorde of God That you giue too little to Magistrates it shall be shewed in place Though you bée wearie it is no meruayle for it gréeueth you to bée touched so narrowly And surely if you vse no cleanlyer termes than you doe in this place or continue in pouring oute your choler in suche aboundance you will tyre mée also or euer I make an ende Whatsoeuer I haue here spoken of the Anabaptistes is moste true and therefore no slaunder Io. Whitgifte The. 3. Article Pag. 2. Sect. 3. Thirdly the whole reformation that was then in the Churche displeased them as not spirituall inough and perfect For the Sacramentes Bull. fo 9. 18 ▪ were not as they sayd syncerely ministred things were not reduced to the Apostolike Churche excommunication not rightly vsed no amendement of lyfe appeared since the preaching of the Gospel therfore the Church then reformed no more the true Churche of Christ than was the Papisticall Churche T. C. Pag. 4. Sect. 1. Wee prayse God for thys reformation so farre foorthe as it is agreeable vnto the worde of God wee are gladde the woorde of God is preached that the Sacramentes are ministredthat whiche is wantyng we desire it maye be added that whiche is ouermuche cut off and wee are not ashamed to professe y t we desire it may be done according to the institution of the Churches Io. Whitgifte The. 6. Article Pag 3. Sect. 3. Sixthly they pretended in all their doings the glorie of God Bullin fo 10. the edifying of the Churche and the puritie of the Gospell T.
men also as of Zuinglius Gastius and others Io. Whitgifte The. 14. Article Pa 4. Sect. 4. They bragged that they would defend their cause not only with Fol. 11. words but with the shedding of their bloud also T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. vlt. We feare no shedding of bloud in hir maiesties dayes for mainteining that which we hope we shall be able to proue out of the word of God and wherein we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the thinges whiche we stand vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aford them for the defense of them We brag not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirit to abide whatsoeuer hee shall thinke good to trie vs with either for profession of this or any other hys truthe whatsoeuer Io. Whitgifte Thanks be vnto God there is no cause why you should feare But wherefore do you then beate any such suspition into the peoples heads or why do you beast of that that you know is nothing néere you and whiche no man once goeth about to offer vnto you what meane you in the. 59. page of the second Admonition to say that there is a persecution of poore Christians and the professours of the Gospell suffered not farre vnlike Second Admoni Fol. 59 to the sixe articles which crafty heads deuised and brought the king hir noble father vnto as they would do hir maiestie now Can any thing be spoken more vntruly more suspiciously nay I may rightly say more seditiously If there be such things in controuersie betwixt vs that require defense euen vnto The state of the cōtētiō altered by T. C. death yea and that if euery heare of our head wer a life we ought to afoord them for the defense of the same then truly is there greater matters in hand than euery body doth consider of Hitherto it hath bin the common opinion that our contention was but about trifles about externall things such as might admit alteration and were not of the substance of religion but if this be true that you here set downe belike a great sort haue bin hitherto deceiued Truly if the matters be of such weight that they require defense of life you are much to blame that haue not hitherto made them better knowen I trust we shall in this booke vnderstand what they are In the meane time the stout bragges that are vsed by some might well be spared but we haue oftentimes séene greate cloudes and small rayne and heard great crackes of thunder and thanks be vnto God small harme done Neither are you more to be credited for these boastings than were the Anabaptists for vsing the like Io. Whitgifte ▪ The. 15. Article Page 4. Sect. 5. Their whole intent was to make a separation and a schisme and Fol. 17. 77. to withdraw men from their ordinary Churches and pastours and therfore most odiously they inueied against such pastours and sought by all meanes to discredite them T. C. Page ▪ 6. Sect. 1. We make no separation from the Church we go about to separate al those things that offend in the Church to the end that we being al knit to the sincere truth of the Gospel might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more neerely and closely ioyned togither We endeuour that euery Church hauing a lawfull pastoure whiche is able to instruct all mighte be ranged to their proper Churches whereas diuerse vnlesse they go to other than their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinarie churches and pastours Let him that inueyeth against any pastoure without good cause beare the punishment as for inueying againste heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and such ambition and tyrannie as beareth the sway in diuers ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased than God bee offended Io. Whitgifte Whether you make a separation or no and a schisme in the Churche let all men iudge and whether you draw the people from their ordinarie pastours or no let the secrete conuenticles for I can call them no better vsed not only in the citie but in other places of the countrey also testify whether iustly and as it becommeth you you enuey against such pastours and preachers as mislike your opinion and séeke their discredite let the bitter inuectiues in sermons before the people when none of them is present the common table talke bothe your Admonitions the firste and the second yea and this your passing modeste booke declare Truly this article and euery content in it was neuer more truly verefyed of the Anabaptists than it is and may be of you What you haue to say against the ambition and tyrannie of any such as you especially shoote at we shall sée in your particulars I trust you will speake al you know and more to else you do degenerate Io. Whitgifte The. 16. Article Page 4. Sect. 6. There was no staye in them but daily they inuented new opinions Fol. 18. and did runne from errour to errour T. C. Page 6. Sect. 2. We stay ourselues within the bonds of the word of God we professe our selues to be of the number of those which should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and which labor that the Image Eph. 4. v. 13 Col. 3. v. 10. of God may be dayly renued in vs not only in holynesse of life but also in * knowledge of the truth of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not bin many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truth and therefore practised and in our Church also haue bin some yeares debated Io Whitgifte Thus muche might they alleadge for themselues also and applie those textes of scripture to as good purpose as you do For that place of the fourth to the Ephe. doth 4. Eph. teach that God hath therefore appointed his ministerie in the Church that it mighte be a meanes to bring vs to a perfect knowledge of Christ. The meaning is not that we should be daily altering our iudgement and broching new opinions for against such vnconstancie the same Apostle speaketh in the. 14. verse of the same Chapter 4. Eph. ver 14. True it is that we must dayly grow in faith and loue to the full perfection whereof we cannot attaine in this life but it doth not therefore follow that we like children must be carried about with euery wind of doctrine and neuer remaine constant in one religion To the same end are the words of the Apostle in the. 3. to the Colloss to be referred I beléeue it will fall out that in this your replie there will be found sundry articles neyther allowed nor practised in any Church reformed nor
be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same do these men affirme T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 2. I haue answered this in the seconde article of Anabaptisme that you charge vs with Io. Whitgifte Then haue I answered the same there also Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect 2. Thirdly the Papistes say that our Sacraments be not rightly ministred and so say they likewise T. C. Page 8. Sect. 3. This is also answered in the thirde Io. Whitgifte That is you haue there closely confessed this to be true But that the reader may vnderstande that it is most truely verifyed of them let him peruse that which is written in the seconde Admonition fol. 43. where they saye the sacraments be wickedly 2. Admon fol. 43. ministred and in the first Admonition fol. 89. and that also that followeth in thys booke Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 3. Fourthly the Papistes wholy ▪ condemne our booke of common prayers set out by publike authoritie and the whole order of our seruice in that poynt do these men fully ioyne with them also for they condemne it wholy and that with most bitternesse T. C. Page 8. Sect. 4. I answere that they doe not condemne it wholy but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing with the word of God Io. Whitgifte For the proofe of this article reade the first Admonition fol. 85. 86. c. 148. c. the seconde Admonition fol. 9. 10. 38. 39. c. Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Page 6. Sect. 4. Fiftly the Papistes would not haue the Scriptures read in the Church to the people no more would they For they saye reading is not feeding but as euill as playing on a stage and worse to T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 5. All men shall perceyue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their wordes to an other sense than they spake them in the meane season it is inoughe that they confesse that readyng in the Church is godly Io. Whitgifte It is wel that you confesse it to be godly it wil appeare when I come to that place that the authors of the Admonition both write and thinke farre otherwyse excepte they write one thing and thinke another Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect 5. Sixtly the Papists denie the ciuill Magistrate to haue any authoritie in Ecclesiasticalll matters and so doe they T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 6. I haue answered in the (*) Where you haue not spoken one word of it tenth article of Anabaptisme Io. Whitgifte Your answere is there very confused and vncertaine but for the proofe of this article I referre the reader to certaine notes which I haue collected out of your booke touching this matter in this my defense Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect. 6. To be short the Papistes refuse to come to our Church to Communicate with vs in the Lordes Supper and these men would not haue them by lawes and punishment compelled thervnto T. C. pag. 8. Sect. vlt. I answere that Doeg when he saide that Dauid came to Abimilech sayde nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christ that he sayde destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe saide nothing but that our sauiour Christ sayde But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses bycause the one spake of minde to hurte and the other vnderstoode it of another temple than our sauiour Christ ment it so although you do in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning which might easily appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can bee free from these faultes vnlesse it be done ignorantly which I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wyll desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with the Papistes agaynst the Church The Papistes mislyke of the Booke of common prayers for nothing else but bycause it swarueth from their Masse booke and is not in all poyntes lyke vnto it And these men mislyke it for nothing else but that it hath to much lykelyhoode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned with the Papistes which woulde haue no communion or fellowship wyth them neyther in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they which forsaking their doctrine reteyne part of theyr ceremonies almost their whole gouernment that is they that separate themselues by three walles or by one they that woulde be parted by the broade sea from them or which woulde be beuided by narrowe water where they maye make a bridge to come agayne and displace the truth of the Gospell as they haue done in tymes past They that woulde not onely vnhorse the Pope but also take awaye the styrrops whereby he shoulde neuer get into the sadle agayne or they that beyng content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies and his gouernment especially as styrrops whereby he maye leape vp agayne when as occasion serueth They that are content onely to haue cut the armes and body of Antichristianitie or they which would haue stumpe and roote all vp Io. Whitgifte Better it is to haue a bad excuse than none at all Their words and meaning is playne as shal appeare when I come to thē I thinke in déede their meaning is that they would not haue them cōpelled to come to our Churches and to communicate in the Lordes supper with vs as it is nowe ministred For it is well knowne howe they themselues refuse to do the same and howe they haue defaced both this Church and the manner and forme of administring the Sacrament what they woulde doe if they might haue their owne deuised reformation and haue the lawe in their owne handes I can not tell but it is very lyke that they woulde be sharpe and seuere inough in compelling men to come I speake of their opinion touching the compelling of men to come to our Churche vnto the whiche they come not themselues That whiche followeth in your Replie I haue sufficiently answered before Pag. 51. where I haue declared howe that it is no straunge thing for men of cleane contrarie iudgementes and opinions to ioyne togither in oppugning one and the selfe same truthe The Papistes pretende one cause of misliking the booke of Cōmon prayers and they pretende an other cause of misliking the same do they not nowe both ioyne in defacing and ouerthrowing it That which followeth is but words those things whiche they reproue in that booke be godly and moste of them not to be bettered The persons that stande in the defense of that booke haue all poyntes of Papistrie in as great detestation as they and peraduenture greater for they so occupie themselues in these externall thinges which be of small importance that in the meane time they The Admonitors gratifie the Papists slippe ouer matters of weighte and
you doe notably sclaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharanes whiche doe set foorthe a true and perfecte paterne or platforme of reforming the Churche then the marke of this heresie reacheth vnto those whiche made the booke of common prayer (b) An vntruthe for I do not saye so in any place whiche you saye is a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too muche As for the Catharanes whiche were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I knowe no suche opinion they had and they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you bee Io. Whitgifte You haue sayde vnto me in one place of your booke Quid verba audiam cumfacta videam euen so I saye to you for why will they not come to oure Sermens or to oure Churches why will they not communicate with vs in oure Sacramentes not salute vs in the stréetes nay spitte in our faces and openly reuile vs whye haue they their secrete conuenticles You knowe all this to be true in a number of them I knowe not why they shoulde doe so excepte they thinke them selues to be contaminated by hearing vs preache or by comming to our Churches or by communicating otherwyse with vs. Whiche if they doe it argueth that they persuade them selues not onely of suche an outwarde perfection but of suche an inwarde puritie also that they may as iustly for the same be called Puritanes as the Nouatians The qualities of Nouatus and cause of his heresie were You knowe that the first occasion why Nouatus did separate him selfe from the Churche was bicause he coulde not obtayne the Bishoprike of Rome whiche he ambitiously desired You knowe also that his pretence was bicause the Bishops dyd receyue those into the Churche whiche had fallen in the time of persecution Afterwardes he fell into greater and mo absurdities for commonly suche as once deuide them selues from the Churche fall from errour to errour without staye This Nouatus thoughe he séemed to condemne ambition in all other men yet was he most ambitious him selfe thoughe he by vehement othes denied him selfe to desire a Bishoprike yet did he most gréedily séeke for it though he boasted of more perfection in lyfe and of a more perfecte platforme of a Churche than he thoughte others had yet was it nothing so He was the firste that I reade of that forseeke his Nouatus the first that forsooke his ministerie ministerie and that sayde Se nolle amplius presbyterum esse sed alterius Philosophiae studiosum that he woulde no longer be a Minister but a student in other Philosophie Reade Eusebius in his sixte booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie Cap. 43 and Nicephorus in his sixte booke also and third chapter Surely the storie of Nouatus is worthy to be noted bycause there be so many at these dayes which do not so much differ from him in opinions as they agrée with him in conditions You affirme that I saye The booke of common prayer to be a perfecte and absolute rule to gouerne this Churche wherin nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer or too muche If I haue sayd any suche thing quote the place that the Reader may consider of it and knowe that you speake the truthe But if I neuer eyther spake or writte any suche thing then are you a false witnesse and I haue to desire the Reader to consider of the reste of your sclaunderous reportes according to the truthe of this I haue learned with Sainct Augustine to giue this reuerence onely to the wryters of Canonicali Scriptures that I thinke none of them to haue The canonicall scriptures are only absolute perfect erred in wryting And I doe firmely beléeue that onely the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture are of that absolutenesse and perfection that nothing maye be taken awaye from them nothing added to them I doe not thinke the Communion booke to be such but that it may admitte alteration I doe not beléeue it to bée so perfecte but that there maye be bothe added to it and taken from it But thys I saye that it is a godly booke withoute any errour in substance of doctrine and nothing in it that I knowe agaynst the worde of God and those imperfections or rather motes that you saye to be in it not to be suche that any godly man oughte to stirre vp any contention in the Churche for them muche lesse to make a schisme and least of all to deuide him selfe from the Churche This is my opinion of that booke whiche vnlesse by learning and good authoritie I iustifie let me haue the blame and shame of it I will not enter into your heartes to iudge what you thinke of your inwarde puritie whiche notwithstanding in comparison you haue in this present place arrogated vnto your selues that very perfection of an outwarde platforme of a Churche whiche you chalenge vnto your selues is one steppe to Nouatianisme and well deserueth the name of Catharisme ¶ Of the authoritie of the Churche in things indifferent Tract 2. Some thinges may be tollerated in the Churche touching order ceremonies discipline and kinde of gouernmente not expressed in the word of God Chap. 1. the first Diuision Admonition SEing that nothing in thys mortall lyfe is more diligently to bee soughte for and carefully to bee looked vnto a 2. Reg. 23. 3. Chro. 17. 2. Chro. 29. 30. 31. Psal. 132. 2. 3. 4. Mat. 21. 12. Ioh. 2. 15. than the restitution of true religion and reformation of Gods Churche it shall bee your partes dearely beloued in this present Parliamente assembled as muche as in you lyeth to promote the same and to employe your whole laboure and studie not onely in abandoning all Popishe remnauntes bothe in ceremonies and regimente but also in bringing in and placing in Gods Churche those thinges onely whiche the Lorde him selfe b Deut. 4. 2. Deut. 12. 32. in hys worde commandeth Bicause it is not mought to take paynes in taking away euill c Psal. 37. 27. Rom. 12. 9. but also to be occupied in placing good in the steade thereof Nowe bicause many men see not all thinges and the d 1. Cor. 2. 14 worlde in thys respecte is maruellously blinded it hathe beene thoughte good to profer to your godly consyderations a true platforme of a Churche reformed to the ende that it beeing layde before your eyes to beholde the greate vnlykenesse betweene it and thys our Englishe Churche you maye learne eyther with perfecte e Psal. 31. 6. Psal. 139. 22. hatred to deteste the one and with singular loue to embrace and carefull endeuour to plante the other or else to be without excuse before f Iohn 15. 21. the maiestie of our God who for the discharge of our conscience manifestation of his truthe hathe by vs reuealed vnto you at this presente
well and conueniently be But for so muche as you afterwarde make mention of excommunication and other censures of the Churche whiche are forerunners vnto excommunication I take it that you meane the externall gouernment of the Churche and that kynde of gouernment And yet muste I aske you another question that is whyther you meane that this gouernmente and kynde of gouermente is necessarye at all tymes or then when the Churche is collected together and in suche place where it maye haue gouernment For you knowe that the Churche is sometymes by persecution so dispersed that it appeareth not as we reade Apocal. 6. Nor hath anye certayne place to remayne in so that it can not haue anye externall gouernment or exercise of any discipline But to be shorte I confesse that in a Churche collected togither in one place and In what specte gouernment is necessarie at libertie gouernment is necessarie in the seconde kinde of necessitie but that any one kynde of gouernment is so necessarie that withoute it the Churche can not be saued or that it maye not be altered into some other kynde thought to be more expedient I vtterly denye and the reasons that moue me so to doe be these The firste is bycause I fynde no one certaine and perfitte kynde of gouernmente Reasons why the Church 〈◊〉 not tied to any one certayne kinde of externall gouernment prescribed or commaunded in the Scriptures to the Churche of Christ which no doubt shoulde haue bene done if it had bene a matter necessarie vnto the saluation of the Church Secondly bycause the essentiall notes of the Churche be these onely The true preaching of the worde of God and the righte administration of the Sacramentes Onely two essentiall notes of the church for as Maister Caluine sayth in his Booke agaynst the Anabaptistes Thys honour is meete to be gyuen to the worde of God and to his Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we Caluine aduer Anabap. see the worde of God truely preached and God accordyng to the same truely worshypped and the Sacramentes wythoute superstition administred there we maye wythoute all controuersie conclude the Churche of God to be and a little after so muche we muste esteeme the worde of God and hys Sacramentes that wheresoeuer we fynde them to be there we maye certaynely knowe the Churche of God to be althoughe in the common life of men manye faultes and errours be founde The same is the opinion of other godly and learned writers and the iudgement of the reformed Confess Heb uetica cap. 17. Churches as appeareth by their confessions So that notwythstanding gouernment or some kynde of gouernment maye be a parte of the Churche touching the outwarde forme and perfection of it yet is it not suche a parte of the essence and being but that it may be the Churche of Christ without this or that kinde of gouernment and therefore the kynde of gouernmente of the Churche is not necessarie vnto saluation The Church of Corinth when Paule did write vnto it was the Church of Christ for so doth he call it 1. Cor. 1. where also he doth giue vnto it a singular commendation and yet it had not at that time when he so commendeth it that kynde of gouernment and discipline that you meane of that is excommunication as appeareth 1. Cor. 5. My thirde reason is this If excommunicatiō which is a kind of gouernment be necessarie to saluation then any man may separate him selfe from euerie Church wherin is no excommunication but no man may separate himselfe from euery Church wherin is no excommunicatiō therfore excommunication which is a kynde of gouernment is not necessarie to saluation The first proposition is euident for no man is bounde to remaine in that Churche where any thing is wanting without the which he cannot want of excōmunication is no iust cause of separation from any Churche be saued As for the seconde proposition that is to saye that no man ought to separate him selfe from euerie Churche where excommunication is not bycause it is learnedly proued by suche as haue written against the Anabaptistes who both dyd teache and practise the contrarie it shall be sufficient to referre you vnto them Maister Caluine in hys Booke against the Anabaptistes fayth thus Herein is the controuersie Caluine aduer Anabap. betwixte the Anabaptistes and vs that they thinke there is no Church where this gouernment meaning excommunication is not appointed or not vsed and exercised as it ought to be nor that a Christian mā there ought to receiue the Supper and vnder that pretence they separate themselues from the Churches where the worde of God is truely preached c. M. Bullinger also in his sixt booke against the Anabaptistes saith This the Anabaptistes Bul. lib. 6. aduer Anabap. do vrge that there is no true Church acceptable vnto God where there is no excommunication the whiche they vse To these therefore we answere that the Churche of Corinth was a true Church and so acknowledged of Paule to be 1. Cor. 1. before there was any vse of excommunication in it c. of the same iudgement is M. Gaulter writing vpon Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. the first to the Corinth 5. VVhilest the Anabaptistes persuade themselues that there can be no discipline wythout excommunication they trouble the Churches euery where c. In the same Chapter he sayth that there is no one certaine kinde of gouernment or discipline prescribed to y e Churches but that the same may be altered as the profit of the Churches shall require His words among other be these Let euery Church follow Ibidem that maner of discipline which doth most agree with the people with whō it abideth and which seemeth to be most fit for the place and time And let no man here rashely prescribe vnto others neither let him binde all Churches to one and the same forme But of this matter I shall haue occasion to speake more hereafter where it shall appeare howe farre this learned man M. Gualter is from allowing that kinde of g uernment now in this state of the Churche the which T. C. woulde make vs to beléeue to be so necessarie This haue I briefely set downe not to disalowe discipline or gouernment for I thinke it very conuenient in the Church of Christ nor yet to reiect excommunicatiō which also hath a necessarie vse in the gouernment of the Church but to declare that this assertion can not stande with the truth with learning that the kynde of gouernment meaning as I thinke some one certaine kinde of externall gouernment is necessarie to saluation Chap. 1. the thirde Diuision T. C. Page 14. Sect. 1. 2. And it is no small iniurie which you do vnto the word of God to pinne it in so narrow roome as that it should be able to direct vs but in the principall poyntes of our Religion or as though the substance of Religion or some rude and
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
that he had conspired with the Babilonians their mortall enimyes and layd to his charge that he was goyng to them when he was going to Beniamin Io. Whitgifte Who is so blynde as he that will not sée Doe they not in plaine wordes saye That the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen are preaching of the worde purely ministring the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline c Is not their whole drifte in the Admonition to proue That neither the worde is preached purely nor the Sacramentes sincerely ministred c. in this Chnrche of Englande and what doe T. C. willuigly peruerteth the words of y e Answere I otherwyse reporte of them be not my wordes playne where doe I affirme that they shoulde saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preaching and ministring the Sacramentes But let the Reader consider my wordes and accordingly iudge of your plaine dealing Where I write y t they in effect say the Church of England is voyde of these I am sure you will referre these to that whiche went before that is preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline c. neither can you otherwise doe thoughe you woulde wrest my wordes neuer so violently and therefore that which I reporte of them is that they say this Church of England neither hath the worde purely preached nor the sacramentes sincerely ministred c. I make no greate difference betwixte purely and truely neyther dothe it followe Purely and truely that the worde of God is truely preached alwayes when the truth is preached For as a man maye doe Iusta not Iustè lust thyngs and yet not iustly so maye the truthe be preached and yet not truely A man maye doe that whiche is iuste vnwittingly or for gayne or for pleasure or for malice but then he dothe it not iustly Quid non ex babitu animo Euen so a man maye preache the true worde of God of affection of contention ambition for profite c. but then he dothe not preache it truely So that your distinction betwixt purely and truely is to no purpose Neyther dothe Saint Paule helpe you anye thyng at all but is cleane centrarye 1. Phi. vers 18. vnto you for in the ▪ 18. verse of the firste Chapter to the Philip. these be hys wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ c. whych in the Bible Printed at Geneua is thus translated VVhat then yet Christe is preached all manner wayes whether it be vnder a pretence or sincerely So you sée that there is no difference made betwixte sincerely and truely for the Greeke worde signifyeth truely And Maister Beza in hys notes vpon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expoundyng 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely saythe thus Non pu o scilicet animo quùm alio qui pura Beza esset doctrina to weete not wyth a pure mynde seeyng that otherwyse the doctrine is pure so that these aduerbes purely and truely in this place are referred not to the doctrine but to mynde of hym that teacheth ▪ I woulde wyshe that bothe you and others woulde cease from drawyng the Scriptures to youre phantasyes and affections That this is one reason of the Papistes to proue that we are not the Churche bycause we haue no true ministerie I maruell you can be ignorant séeyng there is nothing oft er in their mouthes Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in lyke manner or no tell me when you haue well consydered these wordes of theirs in the Epistle to the Reader Eyther must we haue a right-ministery of God and a ryghte gouernment of hys Churche accordyng to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or eise there can be no ryghte Religion Likewise when you haue wythoute parcialitie viewed the reste of their booke Truely I thinke him to be more than blynde that séeth not thys to be theyr kynde of reasoning Their meanyng is playne and the seconde Admonition maketh it plainer howsoeuer you woulde séeme to colour and cloake the matter for what other meanyng can it haue to saye that we haue no ryghte ▪ Religion and to speake so bitterly agaynst the whole forme of the Churche and the moste of suche things as be in the same I doe beléeue certaynely that there is some Papisticall practitioners among you neyther is it straunge for so conspired they wyth the Anabaptistes also as I haue declared and the Anabaptistes hated them as muche as you and pretended the sunplicitie of the worde of God as muche as you and bothe in pretence of zeale of puritie of lyfe and other qualities for the moste parte were equall vnto you And thoughe the Prophete Ieremie were vniustly accused yet doth not that improue any thing that I haue sayde for they are not the Prophete Ieremye neither in person office or cause neither yet haue I accused them vniustly in any thing Of the election of Ministers Tract 3. Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation Chap. 1. the first diuision Admonition The first is this For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 7. 8. Tit. 1 6. both of their abilitie to enstruct and of their godly conuersation also nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man noble or other tag and rag learned and vnlearned of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sorte of the people to the slaunder of the Gospell in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouthes of the aduersaries are freely receiued Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 36. It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation But the place in the margent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners but onely of presenting two and of praying and casting of lottes And M. Clauine in his Institutions sayth plainely that out of this place of the Actes and example there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers for as that ministerie was extraordinarie so was the calling also Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place so ofte in the margent quoted maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen he ment nothing (a) Surelye that was not so much ment as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
a Pastor when there is any place void Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they find him meete he is confirmed of the Senate whiche standeth of some number of the people and by the moste parte of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the Minister by the people is lawfull and Apost like and confe sed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the Church and seruitude and carya note and marke of corruption of Religion Laste of all that he go h about to defende the election vsed in the Churches where he was Minister by thys that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may be that we should bring the Churche into bondage or take awaye the order whereby bothe the Minister maye be better assured of hys calling and the people maye the willyngiyer submitte them selues vnto theyr pastors and gouernours or what cause to departe from the Apostolyke forme of the choyse of the Pastor beyng lawfull I confesse I knowe not and woulde be gladde to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the Christian Magistrate and to saye that these things can not be hadde vnder hym as you vnder Maister Musculus name doe affyrme is o doe greate iniurie vnto the office of the Magistrate whyche abridgeth not the libertie of the Churche but defendeth it diminisheth not the Pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishyng the ordinarie callyngs onely whiche in the time of perse ution some tymes are not so ordinarie withdraweth not the obedience of the people from the Pastor bu vrgeth it where it is not and constrayneth it where it is not voluntarie And seeyng that also (*) Musculu 〈◊〉 ning 〈◊〉 Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedyes for corruption of Religion and disordered states what greater dishonour can there be done vnto the holy institution of God in the ciuill gouernour than to saye that these forced elections wythout the consent of the people muste be where there is a Christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure Religion vnder him when as in deede it maye be easily vnder hym pure whiche can hardly and with greate daunger be pure withoute hym And when as it is sayde that the Churches consente shoulde be hadde in the election of the Minister (a) Here you ar one 〈◊〉 from your Apostolica forme we doe not denie the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill Magistrate and the disanulling of them if the Churche in choosing and the Ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the Church of choosing a more conuenient man So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons thys enforced election withoute the consente of the people is but corrupte and so oughte not to be in the Churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken against and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof Io. Whitgifte Turpe est doctori c. you haue before tolde vs what Iustinian sayth (a) Pag. 36. Sect. 2. in codice Also T. C. tripped in that wher he findeth fau with other of (b) Page 37. Sect. 3. an Epistle sent from the councell of Nice vnto the Churche of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention of the councell of (c) Page 37. Sect. 5. Carthage of (d) Ibidē sect ▪ 6 Toletane councell and afterwarde you tell vs what (e) Pag. 4 Sect. 2. Augustine (*) Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Gratiā say and wil that (f) Pag. 71. Sect. 6. the centuries should be seene c. yet you neither tell vs in what part of Iustinians Code in what booke of Chap. of Theodoret in what coūcel of Cartharge or of Toledo in what tome of Augustine or part of Gratiā in what centurie or booke of centuries which all require much more tyme to search out than this of Musculus especially your law which for any thing that I can perceiue asketh so long a searche in codice Iustiniani that I thinke it will neuer be founde there But it is no great marueile for you reporte them as the Author doth of whom you borowe them without any further searche or tryall But to put you out of doubt this place of Musculus is titulo de Magistratibus Musculus in déede confesseth that in the Apostles tyme ministers were choosen by the people and ordeyned and confirmed by the elders And after that he hath shewed this manner of election to haue béene vsed t Cyprians tyme he addeth and sayth Ad hunc itaque Tit. de ve b ▪ ministris modum eligebantur c. After thys manner in tymes paste were Ministers Byshoppes and Deacons elected the whyche forme also of electing Churches reteyned vnto the tyme of Christian Princes and Magistrates whose consent was required in the election of Byshoppes and that worthily for it is not meete that those things whiche are to be done publikely and concerne the people whiche be their subiectes and perteine vnto them in respect of Religion except we wil say with the Anabap. that Christians ought not to be Magistrates shoulde be done without their consent After this he declareth how the Bishop of Rome in the end spoyled the Magistrate and the people also of this libertie and when he hath spoken against the abuses of the Romane Church in that matter he maketh an obiection of such Churches as professe the Gospell saying but some peraduenture wi l obiect that those Churches whyche in our time will seme to haue reformed Religion receiue their ministers of the Magistrate not by any election of the people to this obiection he sayth that he is compelled to answere for their sakes who though they faithfully labour in the word of the Lord yet do they doubte whether their vocatiō be lawfull or no bicause they were not elected ordeined according to the Apostolicall forme And hauing confessed those points y t you here set downe he maketh this resolutiō Verū si consideres diuersū ecclesiae statū c. If thou shalt consider the diuers state of the Church thou must confesse that that which in it self is Apostolicall lawful vsuall conuenient for the libertie of the Churches primis quidē ecclesiae tēporibus prodesse potuisse nostris vero non ita might wel profit the Church in the beginning but not so in our time For thē there was not such a multitude of Christiās but that the minister without tumult might by cōmon consent be chosen which thing at this day were very hard to be done Moreouer thē the mindes of the faithfull were not so generally infected with cōmon errors nor so blinded
Eradium mibi successorem volo c. Therefore least anye shoulde complayne of me I doe heere signifye vnto you all my will whyche I thynke to bee the wyll of God I will haue Eradius the mynister to bee my successoure c. Lastlye he sheweth howe he hymselfe was appointed Byshop his predecessor being yet aliue Here it is to be noted first what stirre began to be in Augustines time about such Notes out of the restunome of Augustine elections made by the people which was the cause why he and others appointed vnto themselues successors whilest they yet liued Secondly that Seuerus appointed to himselfe a successor and thought it not necessary therein to require the consent of the people which he would not haue neglected if it had bin either necessary or vsuall Last of all that Augustine pronounceth Eradius to be his successor in the presence of the people that they might know his minde but yet without asking their voyces although they did willingly of themselues consent for that which afterward he requireth them to subscribe vnto was the petition that he made vnto them no more to trouble hym with their ciuil matters but that they would resort vnto Eradius his successor for such causes When the reader hathe well considered these circumstances which he shall better learne in the place itselfe then let hym iudge how muche it serueth for your turne It may appeare by that Epistle of Ambrose what contention there was in Vercellensi Contention about popular elections ecclesia to the which he wrote about the election of their Byshop for they had bene long destitute of one as it there appeareth Wherefore he exhorteth them to agrée ▪ ment by the example of their predecessors who so well agréed in choosing of Eusebius wherevpon he saith meritò vir tantus meaning Eusebius euasit quem omnis elegit ecclesia Ambro. epi. 82 meritò creditum quòd diuino esset electus iudicio quem onmes postulauissent He worthily proued a notable man whome the whole Church elected he was rightly thought to be chosen by gods appointment whome euery one desired And who doubteth but that he is called of God whome the whole Church without suite without sinister affection without intent to mainteine factions and schismes doth desire this proues that in Ambrose his time in that Church the people desired their Byshop which is not to be denied but it also sheweth that in the same time there were maruellous contentions about such elections which is to be considered Nazianzene in that oration hath not one argument to proue that the election of the minister Nazianzene performeth not that for the which he is auouched Contention in popular elections doth perteyne to the Church neyther doth he confute those things which should séeme to hinder it for there is none alleadged only he declareth what a maruellous stirre and sedition there was at two sundry times in the Church of Caesaria about the election of the Byshop what violence was vsed about the same how the people were deuided among themselues first and after against their ministers Likewise how they suddenly misliked their owne choise and would haue disanulled it if they had not bin restreyned of their willes by Nazianzene his father How the Emperoure also and the ruler of the citie taking part with the factious company were by him pacifyed Surely this maketh very little to the commendation of popular elections Nay in the second contention that he there reciteth declaring who were the especiall authours of it he saith Ecclesiae enim a malo erant immunes pariter opulentiores potētiores sed omnis The common people especial authours of tumults in elections impetus ac seditio inter plebem erat ac precipuè vilissimam For the churches meaning the Cleargie were cleare from that mischiefe so were the richer sort also and they which were of greater authoritie but all the violence and sedition was among the common people and among them especially which were of the basest sort And a little after telling how his father pacifyed that sedition he saith that his father writ vnto them admonished them p pulum sacerdotes necnon alios quotquot qui ad gradum pertinebant obtestabatur eligebat * calculum ferebat c. He humbly intreated the people the priests and others which perteyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to that order he elected chose c. What is here spoken that maketh not rather against you than with you no man denieth but that the people at this time had interest in the election of the minister in diuers Churches but that doth not proue that they ought to haue so nowe or that the Byshop hath no interest in the same nay inconueniences of popular elections did then manifestly appeare There is not as yet one authoritie brought in to proue that the ordering of ministers T. C. reasoneth not ad idem and defendeth not the Admonition doth at no hand apperteine to the byshop whiche the Admonition affirmeth and I haue improued but you haue not replyed vnto it kéeping your olde accustomed manner still not to reason ad idem for whereas you shoulde conclude thus the ordering of ministers doth at no hand perteyne to a Byshop you conclude thus The election T. C. letteth slip y e which he shold proue and yet proueth not that which he would The propositions that should haue bin defended of a Pastor or Byshop perteyneth not to one man alone And yet you haue not proued that only you bring in examples of popular elections and so haue I broughte in both examples and authorities for the sole election of the Byshop for they be both true But you ought to proue these two propositions if you will iustify the Admonition firste that popular elections ought to be perpetuall and secondly that the ordeyning of ministers dothe at no hand perteyne to the Byshop But you subtilly passe these ouer and cast a mist before your readers eyes in heaping vp out of Illiricus néedelesse proofes Chap. 7. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 41. Sect. 3. And that this election continued in the Churche vntill within a CCC yeares at what tyme there was more than Egyptiacall and palpable darknesse ouer the face of the whole yearth it may appeare in a treatise of Flaccus Illiricus whiche he calleth an addition vnto his booke that he entituleth the catalogue of the witnesses of truth of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bin (a) Not only much but almost altogither muche holpen in this matter of the choise of the Church touching the ministers especially in the Emperours edicts whiche are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers ways I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedy furtherance and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of bycause they may be there red of those that be learned whome I wil also referre to the sixt
to do with non residence Authoritie is scarse when his helpe is Aristotle not rightly allea ged required But what saith he forsoth that that which was cared for of all men was neglected of all I thinke that you report not Aristotles wordes truely for as farre as I remember he sayth that that which is common to all is neglected of all The other can not be true for that which is cared for of all men can not be neglected of all for to care for and to neglect be contraries but must of necessitie be well prouided for and looked vnto But to what purpose do you alleage this Bycause I saye that no man must so loke to his priuate A mā hauyng a priuate charge ▪ ought to care for the whole charge that he neglect the other partes of the Church do I therefore say that there is no priuate charge but all things are in common It is the duetie of euery member in the common wealth so to loke to his owne priuate affaires and businesse that he neglect not the common state of his country are all things therfore common neither did Aristotle euer teach that a man should so care for his certaine possession that he preferred not the common vtilitie before it and so likewise Christ hath deuided to euery man a portion of hie Church to care for but yet not so that he should thinke himself no longer bound to the whole or that he must now cease from profiting the whole Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T C. Page 49. Sect. 1. Now if any man will say that in such great scarcitie of Pastors it is good that when a man hath trauailed in one place remoued them from superstition brought them to beleeue in God through Christ to go to another place and assay also to draw them from Idolatrie first I vrge that which I did before which is the calling wherein euery man must abide and without the which no man ought to attempt any thing Then I say that it is as hard a prouince and as painefull a thing vnto the pastor as acceptable and precious a worke vnto the Lorde to kepe those which are gotten as to get those which are not gotten and that that saying is fulfilled here if in any thing else Non minor est virtus quam quaerere parta tueri Io. Whitgifte This obiection is of greater force than you are able to withstande For the same God that hath called him to the one place to plant his true Religion there hath also called him to the other that he may doe the like euen as he did the Apostles Prophets and Euangelistes and pastors also who haue béen euen immediatly after the Apostles time transferred from one place to another for the greater commoditie of the Church Neither can it be proued that any man should be so tyed to one place that he may not be transferred to another to profit more It is true that the deuill most greuously assaulteth those which haue embraced the truth bicause now they are become his professed enimyes openly withstand hym But they are sufficiently armed with faith and with y e word of God so that although they be tempted yet can they not be ouercome The other that remaine in ignorance he wholy possesseth and bicause they haue yéelded themselues vnto him he doth suffer them to be quiet therfore to deliuer such out of his seruitude and bondage and so to arme instruct them that they are not only able to withstand but to put to flight the deuill also must of necessitie be both the hardest and the most acceptable worke vnto God except you will say that it is more commendable to helpe him who is sufficiently armed and able to resist than him that is altogether vnarmed and as it were vnder the foote of his enimy Certainly the most acceptable worke vnto God is to conuert sinners vnto repentance and to heale such as be sicke therfore Christ himselfe sayd that he Luke 19. came to seeke that which was lost and the parable of the lost grote and of the Prodigall Luke 15. sonne doth with might maine ouerthrow your sayings so do the whole dealings of the Apostles and the whole course of the Scriptures Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 49. Sect. 2. For we knowe that after that the Deuill perceyueth that men are pulled oute of the power of darknesse into the glorious light of the Gospel he sweateth and laboureth by a thousand meanes to destroy them and bestirreth himselfe more then than in the time of their ignorance and in steade of that one chayne of ignorance and want of the knowledge of God he layeth a thousande trappes for them to snare them with So that the continuall daunger that the Churche is in dothe as it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were speake vnto the pastor in the cōmon prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is looke diligently to that charge whiche thou hast receyued For if the watcheman should forsake the citie where vnto he is appoynted and go and watche in another where he is not called although he saue that if he loose the other he shall not therfore escape the punishment of betraying the other citie ▪ where he was placed watchman Io Whitgifte So it is but all the diuels in hell can not preuayle agaynst them therefore sayde S. Paule to the Ephe. cap. 6. Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to Eph. 6. resist the euill day c. euery Christian is in this case yea the pastor himselfe but wote you what Christ sayth Ioh. 10. My sheepe heare by voyce and no man shall take them Ioh. 10. Chrysost. in 3. Colos. Colos. 3. out of my handes The Scriptures as Chrysostome sayth be continuall scholemasters and he that hath vnderstanding may therein learne howe to withstande Sathan and all his assaultes And therefore sayde the Apostle to the Coll. 3. Let the worde of God dwell in you abundantly in all wisdome teaching and admonishing your owne selues in Psalmes and hymnes c. If the watcheman hathe sufficiently admonished the citie and hathe ministred weapons vnto them brought them out of the bondage of their enimie and leaue some other behinde him to supply the rest and then go to another citie to deliuer it also from the like slauery if in the meane time the former citie be lost or reuolted which is not like their bloud be vpon themselues the watchman hath done his dutie When Io s had tolde Niniuie hir offences shewed his message for the which he was sent The preacher is called thither where he may doe most good ▪ was there any more required of him Moreouer I am persuaded that wheresoeuer the preacher may do most good thither is he called of God neyther is this to forsake his station but to followe his calling and to do good Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 49.
the Christ nor Elias nor the prophet now there is a great difference betwixt these two kynde of speaches if thou be not of the Prophets and if thou be not the Prophet For the first signifieth that they should aske him whether he were any of the Prophets the other whether he were that prophet whom they looked for to be suche a one as Moyses was according to that which is written Deut. 18. vers 15. for else Iohn wold Deut. 18. not haue denied himself to haue bin a Prophet seeing that Christ sayth he was one Math. 11. Moreouer they aske him not of those ordinarie functions that were then in Math. 11 ▪ the Church but of such extraordinarie persons as they looked for to come as Christ Elias or that prophete Thirdly they did not recite all the ordinarie functions as Leuite and Priest whiche were then most ordinarie and almost only at that tyme so that your reason hath neyther forme nor truth in it Chap. 1. the eight Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 4. Let the whole practise of the church vnder the law be looked vpon it shall not be founde that any other ecclesiastcal ministerie was appointed thā those orders of high priest and priests and Leuites c. which were apointed by the law of God and if there were any raised extraordinarily the fame had their calling confirmed from heauen either by signes or miracles or by playne and cleere testimonies of the mouth of God or by extraordinarie exciting and mouing of the spirite of God So that it appeareth that the ministerie of the gospell and the functions therof ought to be from heauen and of God and not inuented by the braines of men from heauen I say and heauenly bicause although it be executed by earthly men and the ministers also are chosen by men like vnto themselues yet bicause it is done by the worde and institution of god that hath not only ordeyned that the worde should be preached but hath ordeined also in what order and by whome it should be preached it may be well accompted to come from heauen and from god Io. Whitgifte Neyther is there any new ministerie or order appointed in this churche bicause The Archbishop no new ministerie there be Archbishops For Archbishops be ministers of the word and Sacramentes and Quoad ministerium do not differ from other pastors in respect of whom they are called Archbishops but touching order gouernment as you may reade afterwarde in the answere to the admonition So that all this which is here spoken is grounded vpon a false principle For you would make the reader beléeue that to institute an Archbishop is to institute a newe ministerie wherein you are maruellously ouershot The Iewes had gouernment in their church and superioritie in the ecclesiasticall estate and so haue we But you may not tie the church of Christ to the patterne of the Iewes synagoge for that were to make it seruile Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 5. Seing therfore that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon are not in the worde W ake proofes must needes inferre a weak conclusion of god it followeth that they are of the earth and so can do no good but much harme in the church And if any man will say that we do the Church great iniurie bicause we doe tye hir to a certayne number of orders of ministers as it were to a stake so that we may not deuise new functions I say that both the church and Christ dothe accuse him againe Christ esteemeth himself to haue iniurie bicause that by this meanes he is imagined not to haue bene carefull and prouident enough for his churche in that he hath left the ministerie wherin doth consist the lyfe of the church being that whereby it is begotten so rawly and vnperfect that by permitting it to the ordering of men there is a greate danger of errour whiche he might haue set without all daunger by a woorde or two speaking Io. Whitgifte Your proofes hitherto alleadged are moste insufficient to iustiste this conclusion and yet doe you boldly goe on as though all were sure This is but beldenesse and confidencie it is not sounde and pithie dealing I still denie that there is any other ministerie in the Churche bycause there are Archebishops than is by the worde of God confirmed But you haue not yet proued by either Scripture or reason that there oughte not to be gouernours or superiors among the ministers of the Gospel to whome any other names may be giuen than is expressed in the word which you ought to proue else you doe but dallie and studie with vayne wordes to enlarge your booke It is manyfest that Christ hath left the gouernment of his Church touching the externall policie in sundrie points to the ordering of men who haue to make orders and lawes for the same as tyme place and person requireth so that nothing bée done contrary to his worde as it is before proued Tract 2. and shall be more hereafter Chap. 1. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 6. The Churche of the other syde ryseth against him for that he maketh Christ lesse careful for hir than he was for that vnder the law For 〈◊〉 me in the whole volume of the testament is there any kinde or degree of ministerie wherof God is not the certaine and expresse author Was there euer any man I except Ieroboam and such prophane men either so holie or so wyse or of such great knowledge y t euer did so much as dreame of instituting of a newe ministerie After the long wandring of the arke in the wildernesse when it came to be placed in Ierusalem tell me if any besydes the Leuites and priests the ordinarie ministers and the prophetes whiche were unmediatly stirred vp of God were found to haue ordeined any office or title which was not commaunded or whether there was at any tyme any thing added or enioyned to those offices of priesthobe and Leuiteship which was not by the lawe prescribed Io. Whitgifte Surely here is nothing but vaine repetitions of that false principle whervpon thys tantalogie and multiplication of wordes is buylded that is y t the institution of T. C faulteth still in the petition of the principle an Archbishop is the institution of a new ministerie as though the apostle S. Paule whē he placed Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Creta did institute a new ministerie bicause he gaue thē authoritie iurisdiction ouer y e rest as it is afterward proued or the Church whē it did apoynt one amōg the Bishops to gouern the rest in Scismatis remedium to remedie schismes as Hierom sayth as it shall more at large hereafter be declared Neyther can it therfore be sayde that Christe doth shew him selfe lesse Christe is not lesse carefull for this churche than for that vnder the lawe carefull for his church than he did for that vnder the lawe
nothyng in it neyther for the temple nor for the vessels of the temple nor or the beautie of it but according to the forme that was enioyned him as appeareth in the first of the kings and the second of the Chronicles And in the restoring of that temple zechiell is witnes e how the ange l by the commaundement of God doth parte by parte appoint all to b done bothe in the temple and in the furniture therof Io. Whitgifte These two examples of the Tabernacle and of the temple tende to one ende and might more aptly haue bene alleaged in the title of Ceremonies than of the gouernment of the Church bicause whatsoeuer is here spoken of ither of them perteyneth to Ceremonies and to the worshipping of God and not to externall policie and gouernment of the church and therfore moste vnaptely alleadged agaynste Archebishops The Replier 〈◊〉 by his own wordes Pag. 22. sect 1. c. But what néede I labor much in this matter when you your self in the. 22. pag. of your booke offer for one thing that I shall bring lefte to the order of this Church to shewe me that the Israelites had twentie that were vndecided by the expresse woorde And it is certaine that both Dauid and Salomon appoynted orders the one about the Tabernacle the other about the Temple whyche wée reade not in Scripture they were commaunded to doe And Dauid appoynted degrées of officers in the Temple and Salomon workmen and ouerseers whereof we doe not reade that they had any speciall commaundement 1. Par. 24. Chap. 5. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Page 63. Sect. 4. Nowe if the holie Ghoste in figures and tropes doth so carefully and as a man may speake uriously comprehende all things in the truth it selfe howe muche more is it to be thoughte that he hath performed this If in the shadowes how much more in the body If he haue doone this in earthly things and whiche shall perishe howe is it to be thought that he hathe 〈◊〉 performed it in heauenly and those whyche abyde for euer And then tell me what are those tymes of which it was sayd the Mel ▪ sias when he commeth will tell vs all Is it a lyke thing that he which did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle but the ornaments of them would not only neglect the ornaments of the church but also that without the which as we are borne in hand it cannot long stand Shal we thinke that he which remembred the barres there hath forgotten the pillers here or he y t there remembred the pinnes did here forget the maister builders how he should there remember the besoms and here forget Archbishops if any had bene needful that he should there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights and here passe by the lightes themselues And to conclude that he shuld make mention there of the moates and here say nothing of the beames there recken vp the gnattes here kepe silence of the camel es What is this else but that which Aristotle sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to looke to smal things and not to looke to great which if it can not fall into the Lorde l t it be a shame to say that the chief piller and vpholder of the Church is not expressed in the scripture nor can not be concluded of it Io Whitgifte You haue before confessed Pag. 15. that certaine things are left to the order of the Church T. C. reth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bycause they are of that nature which are varied by times places persons other circumstāces 〈◊〉 which is sufficient to answere whatsoeuer you haue here spokē of the care ulnesse of the holy ghost in the truth it selfe aboue figures and tropes Although there is no doubte but the holy ghost was as carefull in the one as in the other and loued the one people as wel as the other and therefore it may be an argument à paribus but not minori as you seeme to make it I haue told you before also why god did more particularly prescribe euery ceremonie to the Israelites in the law than he hath done to his p ople in the Gospell God hath in his Gospell performed and fulfilled all the tropes and sig res of the law Iob 2 whatsoeuer Christ which is the Messias hath told vs all things that are necessary to saluation Iohn 20. and so is that place in the. 4. of Iohn to be vnderstanded We make not an Archbyshop necessary to saluation but profitable for the gouernment of the Church and therefore consonant to the word of God as shall be declared We know the Church of Christ is not builded vpon any man eyther as vpon foundation or pillers if we speake properly but vpon Christ himselfe and his worde which remaine vnmoueable we know also that the same Church may stand wit out the external help of man But yet hath God appointed functions in his Churche both ecclesiasticall and ciuill as meanes to kéepe it in externall peace di cipline and or er and though he hath not expressed the names yet hath he allowed the 〈◊〉 Among men the chiefe piller that vpholdeth the Churche is the Christian prince and magistrate and yet where haue you in the Gospell any such expresse mention made thereof as there is in the appointing of the tabernacle of Beesoms snuffers c. whiche e amples you vse in derision suche is your modestie and reuerence We knowe that all things nec ssary to saluation are much more plainly expressed in the Gospell than in the law We are also well assured that Christ in his word hath fully and playnly comprehended all things requisite to faith and good life but yet hath he committed certaine orders of ceremonies and kind of gouernmente to the disposition of his Churche the generall rules giuen in his worde being obserued and nothing being done contrary to his will and commaundement therein conteyned as haue proued before Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 5. Moreouer (a) A 〈◊〉 ma or these ministeries without the which the Church is fully builded and broughte to perfec ion and complete vnitie are (b) An vntr minor not to be reteyned in the Church but without the ministeries of Archbyshop c. the Churche may be fully bu lded and brought to perfection therefore these ministeries are not to be reteyned Io. Whitgifte Your minor is vntrue For the Church in a kingdome where it hath an external gouernmēt where it includeth both good and bad where it is molested with contentious persons with schismes heresies c. cannot enioy complete vnitie nor be perfectly The maior tendeth to th shu ing out of the 〈◊〉 magistrate The Church must not only be brought to persection but also be preserued therem ▪ gouerned touching the externall forme and gouernment without such offices and gouernours Your maior also conteyneth daungerous doctrine including as well the christian magistrate
action ended had no more authoritie than the rest Io. Whitgifte If you had read any auncient storie or father yea if you had but perused M. Caluines Institutions the. 8. Chapter or any writer intreating of this matter you would neuer haue vttered this vaine coniecture nor shewed so manifest a token of greate ignorance and no reading For it shall appeare by sufficient testimonie that neyther the name nor office of an Archbyshop was any thing at all straimge in this time And the authors of the Centuries Cent. 4. can tell you that Ambrose himselfe was Metropolitanus Ambrose a Metropolitane Cent. 4. cap. 10 plurium coniunctarum ecclesiarum administratione fungens A Metropolitane gouerning many Churches adioyning together Your coniecture that this Archbishop should be no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherin Byshops were ordeined and after the action ended had no more authoritie than the rest is a méere phansie of your owne contrarie to all authoritie and withoute any grounde or similitude of reason and yet you often repeate it and make it the foundation of this your building But let vs heare your coniectures Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. And I am moued so to thinke First bicause it is not like that one onely ordeyned Byshops being contrarie to the olde Canons of the best Councels but that there were other and that this whō Ambrose calleth Archbyshop did gather the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before that it was not so strange at this time for the Byshop alone to ordeine Ministers And yet Ambrose in this place signifieth that the people had Ambrose somewhat to doe in this matter for he calleth them populum nugacem indoctum qui talem sibi asciuerunt sacerdotem a people that trifeleth and is vnlearned that hath gotten vnto them such a priest But I pray you where is now your distinction betwixt election ordination For Ambrose speaketh in this place of ordeyning and not of electing If you wyll néedes so distinguishe them that they maye not bée at any tyme nor in any place confounded then haue you answered youre selfe here and wyth one coniecture ouerthrowne an other But howesoeuer it is coniectures can not preuayle agaynst so manyfest a truthe being so silly coniectures For tell mée where you euer redde that he was called an Archbishop that did only gather the voyces or that this name was attributed to any during the action only and no longer This is verie newe Diuinitie vnhearde of in any good Authour that I haue readde or can heare of Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 5. Secondly bycause it was verie vnlyke that there was any absolutely aboue S. Ambrose in those partes where he complayneth of euill bishops or ministers made Io. Whitgifte Why to whom or for whom did Ambrose write this booke for his owne prouince or Diocesse only therein are you deceyued that you thinke Ambrose to haue written this booke for his owne Prouince onely when he writte it to profite the whole Churche as it may appeare in the fyrst Chapter of that Booke Neither doth he complaine of suche euill Bishoppes or ministers as were vnder him for then should he haue complayned of himselfe béeyng theyr Metropolitane but of suche he complayneth as were in other places and Prouinces as may be séene by these wordes of his Ita vt videas in Ecclesia passim quos non merita sed pecuniae ad Episcopatus De dig Sacer cap. 5. ordinem prouexerunt So that a man maye see euery where in the Churche suche as are promoted to the order of a Bishop not by desertes but by money and therefore this coniecture is soone answered Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 6. Thirdly for that Ambrose in an other place which you after cite deuidyng all the Church into the cleargie and laytie dothe subdeuide the cleargie into Byshoppes Elders and Deacons and therefore it is not lyke that there was any which had any continuall function of archebyshoppe But as he was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or leader of the daunce which commeth fyrst and after commyng in agayne in the seconde or thyrde place is no more so called so that bishop was called Archebishop which for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the bishops which he by and by layde downe with the dissoluyng of the meetyng And that thys is not my coniecture only that there was no ordinarye or absolute Archebishop (*) Where or which centurie let the Centuries be seene (a) Vntruth whych alledge that place of Ambrose to proue that the office of an archebishop was not then come into the Churche which was foure hundred yeares after Christ and more also Io. Whitgifte This is a dauncing deuise in déede withoute any shadow of truthe as it maye appeare by that whiche already is alleadged and shall do more and more by that which followeth You are maruellous circumspect in your quotations least you shoulde be tripped and therefore you saye let the Centuries be seene but you tell not where Surely you doe verie vntruely reporte the Centuries for I haue redde them where they doe alleadge that place of Ambrose and there is not to be founde any suche matter but the cleane contrarie as is to be séene in that place Cent. 4 cap. 7. by you alleadged of the fourth Cent. the wordes be these Episcopi Metropolitani dicebantur à praecipuis seu primarijs ciuitatibus sicut Basilium Metropolitanū Capadocū Zozomenus vocat lib. 3. cap. 16. Et Archiepiscopi qualem Seleuciae fuisse Simeonem idem retulit lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarcha totius alicuius prouinciae diceba ur Episcopus vt Socrates indica Lib. 5. cap. 8. Bishoppes and Metropolianes were named of the chiefe and princip ll Cities as Zozomenus calleth Basile the Metropolitane of Cappadocia lib. 3. cap. 16. and Archebishoppes suche as he reporteth that Simeon was of Seleucia lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarke of some whole prouince was called a Bishop as Socrates sheweth lib. 5. cap. 8. Wherefore it is too much boldnesse in you to auouche so manyfest vntruths Neyther is it any maruel though you quote not the places for forgerie séeketh corners Forgerie seeketh corn rs And although that whiche hath bin hytherto alleadged out of the Councells of Nice and Antioche with the iudgemente of so manie learned men interpretyng the same might serue to perswade any reasonable man that the office and name of Archebishoppe and Metropolitane is bothe of greate antiquitie and not for one action onely or a dauncyng office as you woulde haue it but fixed and permanent yet bycause I haue to doe wyth quarellers before I goe any further in confuting I will 〈◊〉 downe the iudgement of other aunciente and famous wryters also who allowe bothe of these names and offices And fyrste I will recite suche as haue the names expressed
them when as the Byshopprike of Rome and of Alexandria nowe a good whyle was passed beyonde the Limites of Priesthoode to an outwarde Dominion He sayth not leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion as you translate it But why doth Socrates burste out into thys reprehension of them euen bycause Socrates a fauourer of y e Nouatians Niceph. lib. 6. Cap. 37. lib. 9. 13. they expelled the Nouatian heretikes of whome Socrates was a fautor as it may appeare in Nicephorus wherefore he dothein that place affectionately and vniustly reproue both the Byshop of Rome and Alexandria for stoutly resisting those heretikes and expelling them from their Churches especially they nowe increasing to so great a multitude as it may séeme by Socrates wordes they dyd And althoughe the words of Socrates whiche I haue alreadie recyted iustifie this to be true yet doth his words followyng declare the same more euidently For he commendeth the Byshop of Constantinople bycause he friendly interteyned the Nouatians suffered them quietly to remayne wythin the Citie and yet it is certayne that the Byshop of Constantinople had as large authoritie as the Byshop of Alexandria wherefore Socrates in thys poynt is no more to be beléeued against those Byshops than you are against the Socrates doings agreable to our time Byshoppes in thys Churche whose authoritie you maligne vpon the lyke occasion Chap. 2. the. 40. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 3. 4. And (a) Where i truth become although M. Doctor hath brought neither Scripture nor reason nor Councell wherein there is either name of Archbyshop or Archdeacon or proued that there may be And althoughe he shew not so much as the name of them foure hundred yeares after our saniour Christ. And although where he sheweth them they be either by counterfeit authors or without any worde (b) Would you haue better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tha decrees for th authoritie and continuall 〈◊〉 I se of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himself and putteth the crowne vpon his owne head saying that those that be learned maye easily vnderstande that the names Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest Councels fathers writers and a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant which saye otherwyse Here is (c) Vanitie a victorye blowen with a great and sounding trumpet that myghtè haue bene piped with an o en straw and if it shoulde be replyed againe that M. Doctor hath declared in this little learning little reading and lesse iudgement there mighte growe controuersies without all fruite Io. Whitgifte If I were not acquainted with this spirit it would make me muse at such euident and manifest vntruthes ioyned with so prophane iestes and tauntes If I had alleaged no moe authorities but onely the Councell of Nice it had bene sufficient to haue disproued this so bolde assertion of yours But séeyng I haue alleaged other testimonies also which euidently proue my purpose I muste néedes thinke you not to be a man that greatly careth for your owne credit but if you thinke they are few therefore accompt them for none I haue now I trust in this Chapter 25. Diuision supplyed their want and made vp the number What Scriptures I haue appeareth afterwards It is sufficient if I finde there the office of an Archbishop as I doubte not but I shall and therefore I say againe that to doubt of the antiquitie of these names and offices argueth great penurie of reading the auncient writers Chap. 2. the. 41. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And for as much as the originall and beginning of these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and such like such is their antiquitie cannot be found so farre as I haue reade it is to be supposed they haue their originall from the Apostles themselues For as I remember S. Augustine hath thys rule in hys August ▪ 118. Epist. ad Ianuar. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures and yet by tradition obserued of the vvhole Churche come eyther from the Apostles or from generall Councels as the obseruing of Easter the celebrating of the day of the ascention and of the comming of the holy Ghost suche like Uery vnlearned therefore and ignorant be those which so boldly affirme that these names vsed in the purest time of the church be Antichristian T. C. Page 74. Sect. 4. 5. And by and by in saying that the Archbyshops beginning is vnknowne in steade of a (a) Modestie bastard which some brought into the Church that hid themselues bycause they were ashamed of y ◠child he will make vs beleue that we haue a newe Melchisedech without father without mother whose generation is not knowen and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. Epistle to Ianuarie that the original of them is from the Apostles themselues Here (b) This is fro the matter M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had net Augustine by him when he wrote thys sentence and yet he maruellously forgetteth himselfe for he vsed this place before in his 23. Page and cyteth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued and howe that thereby a window is open to bryng in all Popery whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honour as they are vsed in this Realme are not meete to be giuen to the Ministers of the Gospell there hath bene spoken before Io. Whitgifte This place of Augustine is of greater force and credite with those that be learned than that it can be shifted off I haue answered whatsoeuer you saye against it in that place and shewed of what credite it is with some famous writers of our time namely with Master Zuinglius Master Caluine and Master Gualter And surely I thinke no learned man doth dissent from them Your iestes are to vsuall and vnséemely for a Diuine especially when you abuse the scripture to make sport withal I might haue sayd also of you y t you sought after some glory of a good memorie when as you vsed the like kinde of speach in alleaging of Gildas and Lumbard Pag. 68. but that I am not delighted with such kinde of eloquence Pag. 68. Sect. 4. Chap. 2. the. 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Whether that the name of Prelate of the Garter Earle Coūtie Palatine Honor high commissioner Iustice of peace and Quorum Ciuill offices giuē to ecclesiasticall persons being necessary offices in this common weale partly for the honour of the Prince and Realme but especially for good gouernment of all estates and degrees of persons be Antichristian let those consider
to whom God hath committed the sworde of gouernment such insolent audacitie against states and lawfull regiment is rather to be corrected with due punishment than confuted by argument T. C. Page 74. Sect. 6. 7. 8. As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a needefull office there are inowe to execute it besydes the Ministers which for as much as they be appointed to watche ouer the soules of men purchased with the bloude of Christ all men vnderstand that it is not meete that they shoulde attend vpon the bodie muche lesse vpon the legge and least of al vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue Ministers of their honor but also it is not lawfull to take those that God hath appoynted for another ende to vse to such purposes Thou seest here good reader that M. Doctor kepeth his olde wont of (*) Vntruthe manifest peruerting of the wordes and meanyng of the authors of the Admonition For whereas they saye that the name of Erle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are Antichristian when they are giuen to the ministers of the Churche whose calling wil not agree with such titles he concludeth simply that they saye they be altogether vnlawfull and simply antichristian as if I should reason that it is not meete that the Queenes Maiestie should preache or minister the Sacramentes therefore it is not meete that there shoulde be any preachyng or Ministring of the Sacramentes Nowe letting passe all your hard wordes and vnbrotherly speaches with your vncharitable prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office than you haue had in prouing the name Io. Whitgifte I sée no cause why he that is prelate of the garter maye not also sufficiently discharge his duetie in watching ouer the soule for I thinke the garter dothe not require such continuall or great attendance Those that are appointed to watche ouer y e soule are not exempted from bodily seruice to their Prince excepte you will take from the Prince not onely authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters as you haue done but ouer Ecclesiasticall persons also as by this and such other lyke assertions you séeme to doe ▪ But here of more in place I peruert not the wordes of the Admonition as appeareth by their manifest wordes what their meaning is God knoweth But how little authoritie these offices should haue if your plat forme were framed shall be declared when I come to your seigniorie neyther the names nor offices that come from a Christian Prince that detesteth Antichrist can be called Antichristian vpon whom soeuer they be bestowed Wherevnto this your example tendeth of the Quéenes Maiestie wise men may easily coniecture It smelleth of that Papisticall cauillation Scilicet that we giue to hir Maiestie authoritie to preach and to administer the sacramentes bycause we acknowledge hir lawfull authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes I pray God my prognostications be not to true the more I consider of your booke the more I am driuen to suspect it My hard speaches be within the bondes of modestie but yours may better beséeme the order you talke of then a man of your profession Chap. 2. the. 43. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. Lordes Grace Lordbishop honor c. be names of reuerence teachyng vs to acknowledge our duetie towardes our superiours and their authoritie ouer vs. And it is much more to be reprehended not to giue honor to whom honor is due then to receyue honor when it is due You maye and you please in verye auncient Histories and in Titles of dig nitie in ministers not Antichristian great learned fathers see as honorable and reuerent titles giuen vnto Byshops as these be And surely it is not Antichristian to be called by names and titles not ambitiously soughte for but orderly and lawfully giuen according to the condition and state of the place wherin a man is But it is Antichristian that is proude presumptuous disdainfull arrogant and contemptuous to refuse to giue to euery one that name and title that by law ciuilitie and duetie of vs is required and expresseth our reuerence duetie and obedience You would speake as much of names of honor and reuerence in other persons if you durste be so bolde wyth them as you thinke you may be with some Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayde to this The offices of Archbishops c are not strange or vnheard of in Christes Church and of superioritie among the Cleargie Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 68. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Nowe it followeth to proue that the offices signifyed by these names are not straunge and vnheard of in Christes Churche neyther yet plainly in Gods worde forbidden that they are not to be remoued but as most necessarie to be reteined It is without all doubte that both these names and offices haue Antiquitie of the offices bene in Christes Church long before Nicene Councell and that they haue had in the same continuance euen to this daye as partlye if may be gathered by that which I haue spokē before and most manifestly by all histories and learned writers from before that Councell of Nyce to this instant houre and therefore they little consydered what they writte when they set it downe that these names and offices were straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ. These men contemning auncient writers neuer read them that is the cause of such vnlearned assertions T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 1. And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the Archbyshop he blew the trumpet before the victorie heere in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they write that they are contemners of auncient writers and that they neuer read them and that they are vnlearned which denie these things which he affirmeth Well what we reade howe vnlearned we are is not the matter whiche we striue for the iudgemente thereof is first with God ▪ then with the Churches and in their iudgementes we are content to reste But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally read then the truth of oure cause shall more appeare that is maynteined with so small learnyng and reading agaynst men of such profound knowledge great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not tooidle we should not be hable to reade as much as you which may haue leysure to reade a good long writer or euer you can ryde onely to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distant one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche daungerous opinions of Papistrie and anabaptisme as you beare men in hand we doe why do you not by the example of the Ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputation where you may both winne
declared Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 76. Sect. 1. Furthermore to shape the Archbishop by these places of Cyprian you muste be driuen to expounde this worde Churche Prouince The Papistes whiche cite this place for the Pope as you doe for the Archbishop they expounde the worde Churche heere to be the whole Church vniuersall and Catholike And in deede although it be falsly expounded so in this place yet maye they doe it with more probabilitie and likelyhoode than to expounde it a Prouince for so much as these wordes the Churche is oftener read bothe in the Scripture and olde writers to signifie the whole Churche than any prouince of one Realme but let Cyprian expounde him selfe what he meaneth by a Churche heere although that may easily appeare by that whiche is spoken of S. Cyprian his Bishop wheras Cyprian declareth that Cornelius the Bishop of the Church which was in Rome would not let Felicissimum a Nouatian heretike beeing caste out by the Bishops of Affrike to enter into the Churche he declareth sufficiently that he meaneth that company of the faythfull whiche were gathered togither at Rome to heare the worde and to communicate at the sacraments (*) A cauill ▪ For it was not Cornelius parte to shut him out of the Prouince neyther in deede coulde he himselfe beeing not able without hazarde by reason of the persecution that then was to tarie in any part of the prouince Agayn speaking agaynst y e Nouatian heretike he sheweth that throughe his wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen the confession of faultes in the Churche was hindred Nowe it is manyfest that confession was not made throughout the prouince but in that particular Churche where the party dwelte that committed the faulte Therefore Cyprian vnderstandeth by the name of the Churche neyther Dioces as we call Dioces and muche lesse a whole prouince And in the same Epistle speaking of those whiche had fallen he sayth that they durst not come so muche as to the thresholde or entry of the Church where he also opposeth the Churche to the Prouince saying that they roue about the Prouince and runne about to deceyue the brethren Io. Whitgifte I expounde this worde Churche in this place no otherwise than al learned writers expounde it that is for that prouince diocesse whereof Cornelius was Bishop and it is no vnaccustomed thing to cal the Church which is extended through a prouince by the name of the chiefe Citie or Metropolitane seate of the Prouince as the Churche of Rome all that that is subiecte to the Bishop of Rome the Churche of Carthage all that that is belonging to the Bishop of Carthage And this is truely to expound the places of Cyprian and may be iustified both by examples authorities as I haue proued before wheras your interpretatiō hath no shadow or shew of truth But you had rather iustifie the Papists interpretation than séeme to relent to the The zeale of the Replier authoritie of an Archbishop Suche is your zeale Cyprians wordes touching Cornelius dealing with Felicissimus the Nouatian be these Likewise that thou mightest knowe of Felicissimus the author of the sedition Lib. 1. Epist. 3. who also is conteyned in the letters of our fellowe Bishops written of late vnto them whiche Felicissimus is not onely driuen from hence by them Sed abs te illic nuper de ecclesia nullus est but is there of late expelled by thee out of the Churche Of these wordes you gather this argument Cyprian signifieth that Cornelius had banished Felicissimus from the Churche of Rome Ergo Cornelius was Bishop but of one Parishe or Citie or therefore a Churche in that place signifieth one onely particular congregation gathered togither in one Towne What kinde of coniectures call you these And what thoughe Cornelius coulde not shut him out of the Prouince mighte he not therefore by excommunication seclude him from the congregation of the faythfull throughout the Prouince Doe you thinke that he forceably shutte him out of the locall Churche of Rome or rather dealte with him according to the ecclesiasticall Censures You maye delude simple readers that beléeue whatsoeuer you saye but suche as be able to examine your doings can not if they wyll searche but finde passing forgerie Agayne you saye speaking agaynst the Nouatian heretikes c. Cyprians wordes touching that matter be these Quibus etiam non satis fuit ab Euangelio recessisse spem lapsis Ibidem satisfactionis poenitentiae sustulisse fraudibus inuolutos vel adulterijs commaculatos sacrificiorum funesta contagione pollutos ne Deum rogarent ne in ecclesia exomologesiu criminum facerent The Nouatian heresie ab omni sensu fructu remouisse To whome it was not inoughe to haue departed from the Gospell to haue taken awaye hope and satisfaction and repentance from those that haue fallen to haue remoued from all feeling and fruite of repentance those that are taken in snares or defiled with adulteries or polluted with the deadly contagion of sacrifices that they should not pray to God nor make confession of their sinnes in the congregation What dothe Cyprian else meane by these wordes but that Nouatus denyed repentance to suche as were fallen and woulde not receyue them agayns into the Churche that is not this or that parishe but the Churche of Christ the congregation of the faythfull for that was Nouatus herefie negare veniam lapsis to denie forgiuenesse to those that fell And therefore also he denied vnto them the fruites of repentance as confession of their offences in the congregation of the faythfull c. For Nouatus opinion was not that suche shoulde onely be secluded from this or that congregation but generally from the Churche of Christe and hope of saluation And therfore in that place of Cyprian is ment that Churche extra quam non est salus without the which there is no saluation And to what purpose doe you procéede and go on forward saying That in the same Epistle speaking of those that had fallen c. What proueth it but that those heretikes had caste them into suche a dispayre of forgiuenesse that they durste not offer them selues to be receyued into the Churche that is to repentance And that the same Heretikes béeing them selues excommunicated wandred vp and downe sowing the pestilent séede of their doctrine This is to oppose Heretikes and Schismatikes whiche runne vp and downe in corners to the true members of the Churche But it is not to oppose the Churche to the Prouince For the Prouince if it be Chrystened is the Churche althoughe it conteyne in it seuerall congregations whiche be also Churches and yet béeing members of it are subiecte to one Bishop and so dothe the whole Epistle of Cyprian declare neyther can there anything be gathered out of it to the contrarie for a testimonie wherof I call to witnesse these your weake collections which you would
And Hierome saith that y e cause why among y e Bishops one was chosen to gouerne y e rest was to remedie schismes Do you not perceiue how these two fathers ioyne in one truthe directly affirme y e self same matter It is true y t time corrupteth therfore much more occasion is offered to appoint gouernment according to y e times least the corruptions preuaile get the vpper hand for this cause Hierome saith that vpon these corruptions of time the Church was constreined to appoint this order Chap. 3. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 79. Sect. 3. And here I must put M. Doctor in remēbrance how vnfitly he hath dedicated his booke vnto y e church which hath so patched it peeced it of a number of shreddes of the Doctors y t a sentence of A friuolous di from the matter the scripture either truly or fal ly alleaged is as it were a Phenix in this booke If he would haue had y e church beleue him he oughte to haue setled their iudgement grounded their faith vpon the scriptures which are y e only foūdations whervpon y e church may build Now he doth not only not giue thē ground to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes which they cannot follow nor come after him For except it be those which are learned besides haue the meanes abilitie to haue the bookes which are here cited which are y e least smalest portion of the Church how can they know that these things be true which are alleaged as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay themselues vpon quiet their conscience in allowing y e which M. Doctor woulde so faine haue them like of Therfore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto y e earned and riche which haue furnyshed lybraries Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor hath brought more scriptures thā you haue answered as in the sequele it wil fal out although as I said before in such matters y e scripture hath not expresly Tract 2. determined any certeintie but hath left them to the Church to be appointed according to the circumstances of time place and person as I haue proued both out of the scriptures learned writers intend to do hereafter more particularly whē I come to entreat of your Seigniorie If al other men should do as you haue done that is borrow the sayings of the Doctors out of other mens collections not read y e authors thē selues a few bokes wil serue with very smal charges they mightbe prouided The patches peeces shreds of Doctors that be in my boke are taken out of the Doctors thēselues they be whole sentences faithfully alledged But the shreds of doctors that your boke is stuffed with you haue borrowed of other you haue falsifyed thē cut them off by the half you haue fathered vpon them that which is not to be founde in them and the words of late writers you haue set downe vnder the name of ancient fathers and the scriptures you haue falsely alleaged and vntruely translated I would not gladly haue burst out into this accusation at this time being from the matter but that you haue vrged me therevnto Chap. 3. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. 4. 5. 6. Hierome saith y e at the first a Bishop an elder which you call a priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed y t one should rule ouer y e rest Now I say against this order that y e Bishop should beare rule ouer all y e which our sauiour Christ saith vnto y e Phariseis from y e beginning it was not so therfore I require that y e first order may stand which was Contr Prax. that a Bishop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie against the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian saith vnto you That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is latter Hierome you confesse y t this was first that y e Bishop was all one with y e elder first also by y e Tertullians meaning falsified word of God thē I conclude y t that is true You both do likewise confesse y t it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude y e that is false for all that is false that is latter Furthermore Hierome in the same place of Titus saith after this sort As y e elders know themselues to be subiect by a custome of the Churche vnto him that is set ouer them so the Byshops must knowe that they are greater than the elders rather by custome than by any truth of the instatution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the Church in common Io. Whitgifte It followeth after in my answere to the Admonition that there was superioritie among the ministers of the word e ē in the Apostles time which I 〈◊〉 by the riptures other testimonies it is also 〈◊〉 that great factions schi mes did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church euē in the Apostles time therfore most like these that Icrome sp keth of to haue bin thē determined The which to be true his words ad 〈◊〉 touching y e church of Alexādria doth euidently declare for he saith y t this order was kept 〈◊〉 frō S. Marke But admit these were not true which you wil neuer be able to proue yet your argument is of no force the place of Tertullian is not vnderstanded for Tertullian in that boke after he hath repeated the rule of faith which is to beleeue in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ one God and in his sonne Iesus Ch ist c. he saith that this rule hath come from the beginning of the Gospell euen before all former heretikes muche more before 〈◊〉 that was but yesterdaye as well the posteritie of all heretikes as the verye noueltie of 〈◊〉 which was of late will proue VVhereby iudgement may hereof be indifferently gyuen against all heresies that that is true whatsoeuer is first that count rfeit whatsoeuer is last Wherby it is e ident that Tertullians rule is to be vnderstanded in matters of saluation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 s ode 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gin veland of faith not in matters of ceremonies kinds of gouernment which thing he himselfe in plaine words declareth in his booke de virginibus velandis where in lyke maner after he hath recited this rule of faith he addeth this lawe of aith remaining other things of discipline conuersation admit newnesse of correction the grace of God working and going forward euen to the end So that Tertullian thinketh that matters of ceremonies and discipline may be altered y e rule of faith remaining 〈◊〉 notwithstanding his former rule If you will not haue this to be the meaning of Tertulliā then will I reason thus The reason of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
〈◊〉 gainst 〈◊〉 In the beginning there were Apostles therfore there must be Apostles now in y e beginning it was forbiddē to eate y t which was strangled Ergo we may not eate it now In y e beginning there were no Christian Magistrates Ergo there must e no e now In the beginning the Apostles baptized in riuers the cōmunion was ministred to 12. only c. Ergo quòd posterius falsū that which is latter is false these be as good arguments as yours But it is manifest that Tertullian speaketh of matters of faith necessarie to saluation therfore these arguments yours also with such like be starke naught Chap. 3. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. vlt. Now seing that Hierome confesseth y t a Bishop an elder by God his institution are all one that custome of y e Church hath altered this institutiō for the taking away of this custome restoring of the Lords institution I say as our sauiour Christ said why do you breake the cōmaundements Math 15. of God to establish your own traditions ▪ for the one is the institution of God the other the tradition of the Church if a mans testimonie be so much with M. Doctor let him heare what y ◠same Develand virg Tertullian saith whatsoeuer sauoreth against the truth shal be accounted heresie euen although it be an olde custome Io. Whitgifte Your whole bóoke is groūded vpon the sands y t is vpō foūdatiōs not proued as this is For you should first haue proued that Christ hath so cōmaunded equalitie of Ministers in gouernment ecclesiastical pollicie that one of them may not be aboue the other the contrary is to be sene in scripture both in words examples as I haue after declared so far of is it that you can shew any cōmaundement to the contrary Thys text of y e. 15. of Mat. did the Anabaptistes obiect vnto Zuinglius in the like case as it appeareth in his boke de Baptismo But he answered thē as I must answere you I speake Zuing. de 〈◊〉 not as you feyne me to speake I speake only of external indifferent things wherof there be many which are neither cōmaunded nor forbidden by any expresse worde of God c. againe for this that we speake of is not necessarrie vnto saluation but it is external of the which things many may be foūd omitted in the scriptures c. Wherfore except you can proue that we bring into the Church some thing as necessary vnto saluation which is not expressed in the scriptures this text is no more aptly applyed by you against me than it was by the Anabaptists against Zuinglius The wordes of Tertullian are true and make nothing for your purpose for you must first proue that these degrées be against the truth Chap. 3. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 80. Line 3. Now I will turne M. Doctors owne argument vpon his head after this sort (a) A sillogisme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In the Apostles times there were b schismes heresies but in their times ther were no archbishops ordeined to appeare them therfore the best meanes of composing of controuersies and keping concorde is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you are 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉 ▪ pag. 7 〈◊〉 5. by hauing an Archbishop to be ouer a whole Prouince Io. Whitgifte I will seuerally answere your arguments that the reader may the better vnderstand the pith of them And first I denie this argument bicause it is neither in mode A 〈◊〉 argument dis 〈◊〉 nor sigure For first you must cal to memory that in the third figure where you wold seeme to place it the Minor may not be negatiue as yours is Secondly there is more in the conclusiō then there is in the premisses which is against al rules of sillogismes If you had concluded according to your former propositions you shoulde haue sayde thus Ergo when there are Archbishops there are no schismes For this is the true conclusion of that false sillogisme Thirdly Minus extremum should be subiectum conclusionis and in this argument it is praedicatū Seing therfore that your argument hath no true forme in any respect I denie it vntill it be better framed Chap. 3. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Line 7. That there was none in the y t Apostles times thus it may appeare If there were any they were either ordeined by the Apostles their authoritie or else without and besides their authoritie If there were any without besides their authoritie then they are therefore to be condemned y t more bicause in their time they starie vp without their warrant And if the Apostles did ordeine them there was some vse of them to that whervnto they were ordeined but there was no vse of them to that whervnto they were ordeined therfore the Apostles did not ordeine them The vse whervnto M. Doctor saith they were ordeined was to compose controuersies and ende schismes but to this they were not vsed wherevpon it followeth that if there were any they were vnprofitable That they were not vsed to any such ende it shall be perceiued by that which followeth Io. Whitgifte This should be the proofe of your former Minor if the argument had bene good but be it as you would haue it here is yet no sufficient proofe of your Minor They are but only your owne bare words which may as easily be reiected as they be barely by you affirmed But least the ignorant reader shoulde thinke that I shifte of matters wyth suche quidities as they vnderstand not I will set a side the deformed face of your argument and come to the matter as I thinke your meaning which is this Controuersies were compounded in the Apostles time without an Archbyshop Ergo they maye lykewise be so now so that there is no neede of any Archbishop This is the controuersie whether the Church be bound to the same kind of external gouernment at all times that was vsed in y e Apostles times I haue proued hetherto that it is not And more is to be The office of an archbyshop in y e Apostles Ad. 4. 15. 18. 1 Cor. 3. 4. 5. ▪ l'traque id tim epi ad Tit. Euseb. lib 3. Cap. 23. Epibha lib. 1. Tom. 2. said of the same afterwards In the meane time this I giue you to vnderstand that althoughe the Apostles had not this name of Archbishop among them yet they had the same authoritie and office For they had the gouernment direction of diuers Churches both in matters of doctrin discipline they ended controuesies repressed errors kept them in quietnesse ordeined them Bishops visited them as appeareth Act. 14. 15. 18. 1. Cor. 3. 4. 5. in the Epistle to Timothie Titus Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 23. declareth of Iohn the Euangelist that after he returned from Pathmos he visited gouerned sundry Churches ordeined them Ministers The like doth Epiphanius report of Peter
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
them to this order the farther of they were from those tunes vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further off were they from this moderation and the nearet they came to that tyrannie and ambitious power whiche oppressed and ouerlayed the Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Indéede this is one parte of the office of the Archbyshop and Byshop but not the whole no more than it was of Iames being Byshop of Ierusalem nor of him whome Iustine calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But your chéefe purpose now is to proue that this office is not perpetuall but changeable at euery action and durable only continuing that action which how soundly you haue done and with what straunge argumentes euery childe that hath discretion may iudge Chap. 3. the. 50. Diuision T. C. Page 86. Sect. 1. And therefore M. Caluine doth warely say that one amongst the Apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the (*) The Archbyshop contenteth himselfe with lesse authori ie than the Co suls had Consull of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the Senate togyther and to tel of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voices to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the Churche into his handes the Cardinals Archbyshops and Byshops yet there are some colde and light footings of it in our synods which are holden with the Parliament where amongst all the ministers which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one is chosen whiche shoulde go before the rest propound the causes gather the voyces and be as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Such great force hath the truth that in the vtter ruines of Poperie it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man could neuer know the place thereof no more or that it should not leaue such markes and prints behind it whereby it might afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Io. Whitgifte It followeth in the same place of M. Caluine immediatly Sic nihil absurdi esset Instit. cap. 8. si fateremur Apostolos detulisse Petro talem primatum Sed quod inter paucos valet non protenus trahendum est ad vniuersum o bem terrarum ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit So shoulde it be no absurditie if we shoulde confesse that the Apostles did giue this kynde of preheminence vnto Peter But yet that whiche auayleth among fewe must not by and by be drawen to the whole worlde to the ruling whereof no one man can suffice You sée therefore that M. Caluine speaketh of one singular person euen of Peter hym selfe and yet dothe he not slide into the tents of the Papistes but teacheth rather how to beware of them and yet to acknowledge the truthe of Peter We gyue no greater authoritie eyther to Archbyshop or Byshop than the The example of T. C. against himselfe Consuls and their authoritie Consull or Pretor had among the Romanes or a Master and president in a colledge for the Consuls vppon whose authoritie you séeme so muche to stay were appoynted to gouerne the common wealth of the Romanes after they had banished theyr kynges and they were called Consuls quia plurimum reipublicae consulebant bycause they profited the common wealth very muche whose authoritie in thys dyd differ from the authoritie of a king that there mighte be appeale from them and that they could not put to deathe any citizen of Rome withoute the consente of the people but they mighte otherwise punishe them and ast them into prison They had authorite also to make frée th se that were in bondage they were of the greatest honoure si nullus esset Dictat r if there were no Dictator in the common wealth and their authoritie was offorce not onely in the Senate but else where And it is manyfest that they had not onely authoritie to call the Senate to tell those matters that were to be handled and to take their voyces but to commaunde that none shoulde depart oute of the Citie that had anye v ycè in the Senate and to electe Senators c. It appeareth that you little knewe what the offyce of a Consull was when you wrytte thys If you take aduantage of thys that the office of the Consull was annuall and not perpetuall yet it helpeth not you anything for he was moderator and ruler not of one action onely but of so manye as were by occasion eyther ordinarie or extraordinarie in the whole yeare of ys Consulshyp For my part I doe not thinke that the Archbyshop either hath or ought to haue that authoritie in his prouince that the Consull had in Rome A Master of a Colledge the which example also Master Caluine doth vse hath a Masters of Colledges and their authoritie perpetuall offyce he is chiefe gouernour of that societie and all the members thereof owe duetie and obedience vnto him as to their head he hathe authoritie to puni he and to sée lawes executed neyther doe I thynke that eyther Archbyshop or Byshop claymeth greater authoritie and iurisdiction ouer theyr Prouinces and Diocesse than is due to the Master within hys Colledge And therfore those examples of Master Caluine do confute your assertion they doe in no poynt confirme it In Synodes thoughe there be chosen a prolocutor for the inferior sorte of the Cleargie yet dothe the Archbyshop reteyne still bothe hys office place and authoritie euen as the Prince dothe or the Lorde Kéeper notwythstanding it be permitted to the lower house of Parliament to choose them a Speaker and therefore this is nothyng nor alleaged to anye purpose excepte you wyll saye that in the ciuill state all was equall and that there was no superior but in eueryaction some chosen by the multitude to gouerne the action bycause in the lower house of Parliament they choose a Speaker whose offyce continueth but duryng that Parliament You passe not what you alleage so you maye séeme to alleage something Chap. 3. the. 51. Diuision T. C. Pag. 86. Sect. 2. Nowe you see what authoritie wee allowe amongst the Ministers bothe in theyr seuerall Churches or in prouinciall Synodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetings shall be aduised of for the profitte and edifying of the Churche and wythall you see that a we are farre from thys tyrannie and excessiue power whyche nowe is in the Churche so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so muche to make vs to seeme guiltie Io. Whitgifte I sée you allowe muche more authoritie in wordes that is in the examples you haue vsed than you wyll willingly acknowledge I sée also that this authoritie whyche you call
made 〈◊〉 Archbishop of Creta Erasmus saith Paulus Titū Archiepiscopū Eras. in arg epi. ad Titum Chryso cap. Tit. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Lyra likevvise sayth Paulus instituit Titum Archiepiscopum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 authorities like you not Chrysostome sayth Paulus Tito mul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commisit Novv hauing the gouernment of many Byshops 〈◊〉 may vve call him but an Archbyshop T. C. Pag 93. Sect. 2. For the 〈◊〉 ast reasons against the Archbyshop and Archdeacon although I be well acquayn 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that fauour this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleue ther 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is be his reasons whose they are supposed to be and which did set downe the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be grounded of that place of Logike that sheweth that according as the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I would she simplest should vnderstande what is sayde or written I will willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reasons the termes whereof are not easily perceyued but of those whyche be 〈◊〉 Io. Whitgifte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you may dilclaime what you lyste for you coulde neuer be brought before The inconstancie of the Replyer his companions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 downe your reasons in writing and there is no holde at your worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen at your pleasure and so wil diuerse of your com as 〈◊〉 hath taught But yet you thinke that this former reason hath a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 you answere not one word to my L. of Sarums solution which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be very fonde Chap. 4. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 3. And as for the answere which the Bishop maketh that in place of Apostles Prophets y e giftes of tongues of healing of gouernmēt are brought in vniuersities scholes Bishops Archbishops for scholes vniuersities I haue shewco they haue bin alwayes therfore cannot come in to supply the roome of the Apostles prophets And whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of y e scholes they shal be founde to be rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in steade of any Ecclesiasticall ministerie If the Bishop do meane that they come in place of the gift of the tongs and knowledge of the Gospell that was first giuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question Io. Whitgifte You haue not shewed that scholes vniuersities were alwayes in the Church of Christ nor you cannot shew that there were any vniuersities or scholes of Christians in the Apostles time I am not disposed to contrary any thing y t is alleaged for vniuersities or scholes neither would I haue you to denie this truth affirmed by my L. of Sarum for it is certeine that God worketh now in the Churche by meanes of vniuersities scholes that which he wrought in the Apostles time myraculously by his Apostles prophets And those gifts of tongs healing gouernment c. which he then inspired at once without teaching doth he now giue by little little vsing y e ministery of scholes vniuersities such like wherfore it is true that the Bishop hath said And wheras you say y e scholes whether a man consider y e schollers that learne or the scholemasters which teach or orders appointed for y e gouernment of y e scholes they shall be founde rather ciuill than Ecclesiasticall If you speake of scholes in a prophane or heathenishe common wealth it is true But if you speake of a Christian kingdome it is most vntrue For in a Christian cōmon wealth scholes are the first nurses that bring vp childrē in y e true knowledge of God of his word prepare many of thē to the ministerie both which are Ecclesiasticall Moreouer if you talke of vniuersities such especially as be in thys Realme of England then whether you consider either y e masters fellowes or schollers or rules or orders appointed for y e gouernment of them they be for y e most parte Ecclesiasticall and therfore those things make greatly for the purpose and you haue said nothing that can ouerthrow them Chap. 4. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Sect. 4. As for Bishops they can not come in place of Apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists prophets were are one of those ministeries which S. Paule mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor Io. Whitgifte I tolde you before that y e part of the Apostles office which consisted in gouernment is now remaining in Archbishops and Bishops as to visite Churches to reforme disorders to suppresse contentions and such like which also they practised in the Apostles time in such places as were committed vnto them by the Apostles as it is euident in Timothie and Titus That Bishops do succeede the Apostles in this function of gouernment it may appeare Bishops succeed Apostles in gouernmēt Cyprian by sundry learned writers Cyprian Lib. 3. Epist. 9. writeth thus But Deacons must remember that the Lord hath chosen Apostles that is to say Bishops and chief gouernours but the Apostles after the Ascention of the Lord into heauen did appoint vnto themselues Deacons Ministers of their Bishopricke and of the Churche And Ambrose in 4. ad Ephe. Ambrose Zuinglius saith Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Zuinglius also in his Ecclesiastes saith that the Apostles when they left of goyng from place to place and remayned in one Churche were no more called Apostles but Byshops as Iames at Ierusalem and Iohn at Ephesus Wherby it may appeare that it séemeth straunge neither to the olde wryters nor to to the new to say that Byshops succéede the Apostles and come in place of the Chap. 4. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 93. Sect. vlt. There remayneth therfore the Archebishoppe whyche if he came in place of the Prophetes and Apostles as the Bishoppe sayth how commeth it to passe that the bishop sayth by and by out of the authoritie of Erasmus that Titus was an archebishoppe for at that tyme there was bothe Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes If it bee so therefore that the Archbyshoppe muste supplye the wante of Apostles c. howe commeth it to passe hee wayteth not his tyme whylest they were dead but commeth in lyke vnto one which is borne out of tyme and lyke the vntymely and hastye fruite whyche is seldome or neuer holesom And for one to come into the Apostles or Prophetes place requirerh the authoritie of hym whych ordeyned the Apostles c. whyche is the Lorde and his institution in his worde whiche is that whiche we desire to be shewed But hereof I haue spoken before at large Io. Whitgifte It is not vnknowne to suche as
of one man ouer sundry Churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I haue proued before in my answere to your 13. 14. reason that this lordship of one man as you terme it but in deede lawfull iurisdiction ouer sundry churches was not the inuentiō of any Pope but of great antiquitie in the church of Christ allowed by that famous Councell of Nice practised since of most godly and learned fathers In the. 9. Canon Concil Antioch it is thus written Per singulas regiones Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere propter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negotia videntur habere concurrant vndè placuit um bonore praecellere nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam nisi ea tantùm quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent c. It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrie to knovve their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the vvhole prouince and therfore all such as haue any businesse muste come to theyr Metropolitane Citie vvherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honour and that the other Bishops do nothing vvithout him according to the auncient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things onely vvhich perteyne to his ovvne diocesse c. This Councell was about the yeare of our Lord. 345. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the Archbishop is alleaged the. 9. Canon of the councell of Antioche which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those tymes was from that which is now For there the Coūcel sheweth that euery Bishop in his diocesse hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuite thereof therefore the meaning of the Councell to be that if there be any affayres that touch the whole Church in any lande that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitane priuie as also the Metropolitane might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsell of that which he attempted which M. Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if this authoritie which the Councell giueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authoritie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father this Canon which was ordeyned in this Councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles to giue credite vnto this Canon doth carie with it a note of euill and of shame which they would haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie Io. Whitgifte There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth all the shifts that you haue to auoyde it I haue answered before There is as great authoritie giuen to the Metropolitane in that Canon as now he eyther vseth or requireth For euery Bishop obseruing the lawes of the realme and of the Church hath the ordering of al matters within his diocesse and the Metropolitane in this Church may attempt no newe thing or any matter of great importance not already by lawe established though he haue the consent of all the Bishops so farre is he from hauing authoritie to do any such thing without theyr consent That Canon of the Apostles is repeated confirmed in this Councell as diuerse Canons of the Councell of Nice are in like maner repeated and confirmed by diuerse Councels following This is so farre from discrediting that Canon with wise men that it rather addeth great authoritie vnto it but you kéepe your olde wonte in discrediting the authoritie which you cannot answere Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Now then if you will restore the Church to his auncient officers this you must do In stead of an Archbishop or Lorde byshop you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 7. Colos. 1. 1. equalitie of ministers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. I haue proued before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most auncient and also most necessarie in the Church of Christ that this equalitie of ministers which you require is both flatly against the scriptures al auncient authoritie of councels and learned men the example of all Churches euen frō Christes time as more plainly appeareth by these wordes of M. Bucer in his booke De egno Christi Iam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum obseruatione ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus visum ucer hoc esse spiritui sancto vt inter Presbyteros quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa vnus Ecclesiarum totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem eaque cura solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum c. Novve vve see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy ghost that amongst the ministers to vvhom the gouernment of the Church especially is cōmitted one should haue the chiefe care both of the Churches and of the vvhole ministerie and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence for the vvhich cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernours of Churches c. Furthermore I haue declared that it engendreth schismes factions contentions in the Churche and bringeth in a meere confusion and is a branche of Anabaptisme T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 6. 7. nd in the 〈◊〉 twētie three page to that which M. Bucer sayth y t in the Churches there hath bene one which hath bene 〈◊〉 ouer the rest of the Ministers if he meane one chiefe in euery particular Church 〈◊〉 one chiefe ouer the Ministers of diuerse Churches meeting at one Synode and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 and for suche respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is and if he meane any other chiefe or after any other sorte I denie that any such chiefe was from the Apostles times or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost wherof I haue before shewed the 〈◊〉 And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allowe that the name of a Bishop whiche the holy Ghost expressely gyueth to all the Ministers of the worde indifferently was appropriated to certayne chiefe gouernors of the Church I haue before shewed by diuerse reasons howe that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the ende great hurt to the Church Io. Whitgifte M. Bucers wordes are plaine there is no cause why you shoulde make such I s but onely that you may be thought able to say some thing howe contrary to truth and reason soeuer it be Your owne bare deniall of M. Bucers iudgement will weigh little with any wyse or learned man considering what difference there is betwixte your knowledge and his the triall
Bees the Cranes that be in the world You see therfore how weake this reason is The rest of this reason I haue answered before T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. To the Papists obiecting for the supremacie y e S. Peter was the prince chief of the Apostles M. Caluin answereth first by denying y t Peter was so bringeth many places to proue y t he was equal to y e other Apostles afterward he saith although it be graunted y t Peter was chiefe yet foloweth it not bicause one may bear rule ouer twelue being but a few in number that therfore one may rule ouer an hundreth thousand that it followeth not that that which is good amongst a few is foorthwith good in ll the worlde Nowe let all men iudge with what conscience and truste M. Doctor citcth M. Calnine for to proue the office of the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in the same place hathe these wordes It is not to be maruelled that Cal. inst ca. 8. the twelue had one amongst them that might gouerne the rest For this thing doth nature allow the disposition of man require that in euery societie though all be equal in power yet som should be as it were moderator of the rest vpon whō the other might depend Ther is no court without a Consull no session of iudges without a Pretor or iustice no Colledge without a gouernour no societie without a maister so should it not be any absurditie if wee should confesse that the Apostles gaue such preheminēce vnto Peter Now let the Reader iudge whether it be Caluines meaning in good earnest or no y t there was one chief among the Apostles which being true as it is M. Doctor may with good conscience vse this answere of M. Caluine both against the Papistes and the authours of the Admonition also reasoning not much vnlyke vnto them Chap. 6. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 102. Sect. 1. But I maruel y t he could not also see that which M. Caluine writeth in y e next sentence almost where he sayth y t Christ is only the head of the church that the church doth cleaue vnto another vnder his 〈◊〉 but by what meanes According saith he to y e order forme of policie which he hath prescribed but he hath prescribed no such forme of policie y t one Bishop should be ouer all y e ministers Churches in a whole dioces or one Archbishop ouer al the ministers and churches in a whole prouince therfore this form of policie which is by Archbishops such Bishops as we haue is not y e meanes to knit vs one to an other in vnitie vnder the dominion of Christ. Touching y e titles names of honor which are giuen to the Ecclesiastical persons with vs how that princes 〈◊〉 Magistrates may and ought to haue the title which cannot be giuen to the ministers I haue spoken before therfore of Archbishops Archdeaco s and the Lord bishops thus farre Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in the nexte section after that he hath answered to other arguments of Cal. insti ca 8. the Papists saith thus But let it be as they would haue it that it is good profitable that the whole world should be conteined in one monarchie which notwithstanding is most absurd but let it be so yet I wil not therfore graunt that it doth likewise hold in the gouernmēt of the churche For the church hath Christ her only head vnder whose gouernment we are knit together acording to that order and forme of policie which he himself hath prescribed VVherfore they do Christ notable 〈◊〉 which vnder this pretence will haue one man to rule ouer the whole church bicause she can not want a head for Christ is the head wherby the whole bodie being compacted and coupled by euery ioynt of gouernment dothe according to the operation in the measure of euery member iucrease to a perfect bodie Al whiche I agrée vnto as moste true but nothing at all perteyniug to youre purpose 〈◊〉 sayth that vnder the gouernment of Christe we cleaue together among our selues according to that order and that forme of pollicie whiche he hath himselfe prescribed And who denyeth this But Quorsùm This he speaketh of the spiritual regiment and policie not of the externall and yet that externall regiment and policie is also 〈◊〉 by him whiche is profitable for his Churche according to tyme place and pers ns though it be not particularly expressed in his word as partly hath bin declared before and shall be hereafter more at large vpon particular occasion Thus haue you after so many yeares trauel in this controuersie vttered all your skil against the Archbishop poured out alyour malice exercised your gibes and iests whetted your slaunderous tong and yet besides corrupt and false allegati ns of wryters fonde and toyish distinctions of your owne contrary to al practise and learning vnchristian speaches and heathenish floutes and frumpes you haue vttered nothing And I protest vnto the whole Church before God y t your vnfaithfulnesse in handeling the matter your vaine and friuolous reasons haue muche more animated me to the defense of those auncient reuerend profitable and necessarie offices I speake of the offices as they be vsed in this church And I shal most heartily desire the Reader to weigh and consider the authorities and reasons on both parties indifferently and to iudge therof according to the truth ¶ A briefe collection of suche authorities as are vsed in this defense of the authoritie of Archbishops and Bishops Ca. 7. Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Chrysostome saith in 1. Ti. 5. y t gens ferè tota Testimonies of the Apostles tymes thervnto adioyning Asiatica almost the whole countrey of Asia was cōmitted to him And vpon the. 2. to Timo chap. 4. he saith that Paul had cōmitted to Timothie gubernacula ecclesiae gentis totiu the gouernment ouer the church of the whole nation meaning Asia Titus was Bishop of Creta not of one citie only but of the whole Is e. So sayeth Chrysostome in his cōmentaries vpon the fyrst to Titus And Lyra Erasmns Pellican and others write that S. Paule made him Archbishop of Creta And Illyricus calleth him and Timothie multarum Ecclesiarū Episcopos Bishops of many churches S. Iohn as Eusebius reporteth lib. 3. cap. 23. after his returne from Pathm s did gouerne the Churches in Asia and ordeyned Ministers and Bishops Iames was made by the Apostles Bishop of Ierusalem and the gouernment of that churche was cōmitted to him Euseb. lib. 2. cap. 23. The. 33. or as some counte 34. of the Canons attributed to the Apostles apointeth one head and chiefe Bishop to be in euery nation or countrey to whom all other Byshops of the same nation must be subiecte Dionysius Areopagita was Archbishop of Athens appoynted thervnto by S. Paul as Volusianus a godlie and learned writer testifieth Polycarpus was by S. Iohn made
and naught so do you as naughtily 〈◊〉 it Is there no way for the prodigall man to come to liberalitie but by 〈◊〉 no way for the glutton to come to temperance but by pyning himselfe no way for t e 〈◊〉 person to come to the true feare and loue of God but by des eration 〈◊〉 way to come rom poperie to the Gospell but by confusion and 〈◊〉 of all good ord r and gouernment Is this diuinitie In déede uch 〈◊〉 it is that Aristotle a prophane Philosopher doth teach in his Ethikes but not that Chris and his 〈◊〉 do teach in the Gospell The ordinarie meanes whereby a Christian man must come from vice to vert e The ordinarie meanes to draw men from 〈◊〉 from an e treme to a meane is the diligent reading and hearing o the word of God ioyned with earnest and heartie prayers The best way therefore to bring a dronken man to sobrietie is not to perswade him to a superstitious kind of abstinence or fasting but to lay before him out of the word of God the horriblenes of that sinne and the punishment due vnto the same The similitude of a croked sticke is a t to set foorth so croked a precept but not so apt to make manifest the way vnto vertue But I may not blame you for vsing and allowing those prophane rules whiche you so aptly follow and so commonly practise in all your doings Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. 2. This wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the Church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the religion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians ▪ neyther the Lords day neyther the Pentecost and if they knew them they woulde Lib. de Ido latria haue nothing to do with them for they would be afrayd least they shoulde seeme Christians but we are not afraid to be called heathen Io. Whitgifte Tertullian in that place speaketh against such Christians as celebrated the feasts of the Gentiles togither with them remayning in their wicked abuse as it appeareth in the words that go before which are as followeth Nobis quibus sabbata extranea Lib. de Idolatria sunt neomenia feriae aliquādo a Deo dilectae Saturnalia lanuariae Brumae Matro ales frequentantur munera commeant strenae consonant lusus conuiuia constrepunt O melior fides nationum in suam sectam c. The feasts of Saturne of Ianus of Bacchus and of Iuno are frequented of vs vnto whome the sabbats new mones and holydays sometimes beloued of God are straunge gifts and presents are very ri e sportes and banquets keepe a sturre O better is the faith of the Gentiles in their sect c. Wherefore this saying of Tertullian may aptly be alledged against those that frequent the popish solemnities togither with them come to their Churches communicate with them in worshipping their idols and yet professe the knowledge of the Gospell but it can by no meanes be drawen vnto such as withdrawing themselues from suche kind of communicating with them do in their seuerall Churches vse those good things well which the Papists haue abused as the scripture the sacraments prayers and suche like Wherefore you do not well to alledge Tertullians words omitting the circumstances which declare his meaning A man being pr sent at Idolatrous seruice must néedes giue great suspition that he is an Idolater and therfore no man ought to be present at it which in heart condemneth it But as there is no honest and godly man which can call our seruice Idolatrous or Papisticall so is ther none that can suspect vs to be Idolaters or Papists The whole world knowing that both our practise and profession is to the contrary Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 3. Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 17. Constantine the Emperoure speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter saythe that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull companie of the Iewes And a little a ter he saith that it is most absurd and against reason that the Iewes shou de vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doc rine And in another Socrat. li. cap. 9. place it is sayd after this sort It is conuement so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation Io. Whitgifte Constantine speaketh of the feast of Easter which he would not haue obserued according to the manner of the Iewes and yet you know that the Churches in Asia following the examples of Philip and Iohn the Apostles and of Polycarpus and many other godly men did celebrate that feast togyther with the Iewes as it is to be seene in the fifth booke o Eusebius eccle history Wherfore the matter was not of so great Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 25. 26. importance before it was for quietnesse sake determined by the Churche neyther doth Constantine in eyther of the places meane that we should haue nothing common with the Iewes but only that we should haue no suche thinges common with them as are repugnant to Christian libertie or to the truth of the Gospell or such as may cō rme them in their obstinacie and error For if his meaning had bin generally and simply then mighte he haue vtterly abrogated the feast of Easter being no commaundement sor it in the new testament As therefore Cōstantine thought that the Churche had not the feast of Easter common with the Iewes not bycause the thing it selfe was abrogated but the ay altered Euen so the Churche of Englande cannot be said to haue any thing common with the P pisticall Church though it reteine something vsed in the same bycause the manner is changed and certayne circumstances altered or whereas before it was in a straunge tongue nowe it is in a tongue knowne and whereas it was before abused and mixt with superstition now it is rightly vsed and purged from all corruption And therefore although the thing remaine yet bycause the circumstances be altered it is not the same no more than our Sabbat is the Iewes Sabbat and our Easter the Iewes Easter Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 4. 5. 6. The Councels although they did not obserue themselues always in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept this consideration continually in making their lawes that they woulde haue the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies The Co ncell of Laodicea which was afterward confirmed by the sixt generall Councell decreed Tom. 1. con Lao. can 38 that the Christians should not take vnleauened bread of the Iewes or communicate with their 〈◊〉 Also it was decreed in another Councell that they shoulde not decke their houses with bay 2. To. Braccar can 7 leaues and greene boughes because the Paganes did vse so
cap. 5. sayth That it was the office of Pastors and Doctors generally Beza to dispense the worde and to pray vnder the whiche also we comprehend the administration of sacraments and the celebration of mariage according to the cōtinuall custome of the Church although deacons in these things oftentimes supplied the office of pastors And to proue this he quoteth 1. Cor. 1. verse 14. 15. c. and Ioh. 4. verse 2. So doe other learned men in like maner who also bring for their purpose that which is written Tim. 5. Qui bene praesunt presbyteri c. So that you may vnderstande that learned men be of this iudgement that some may be admitted to administer the sacraments which are not admitted to preache I knowe it to be true that there may be some appoynted to reade in the Churche whiche be not admitted eyther to preache or to administer the Sacramentes For so it was in the primitiue Churche as it is to be séene in auncient stories and wr ters But bicause you would haue nothing vsed in the Churche especially no office appoynted withoute a commaundement in the worde of GOD I praye you tell where you haue eyther commaundemente or example for suche kinde of Readers I doe but demaunde this that the Reader maye vnderstande what libertie you chalenge vnto your selfe of allowing and disalowing what you list and when you list without that warrant of Gods worde to the whiche you so streightly hinde all other Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Page 104. Sect. 4. Besyd s that how can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerie men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roomes which are not able when there are numbers also which are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministerie vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to pleade want of able ministers for this do be ministerie which is altogither vnlawfull yet would this plea neuer be good vntyll suche tyme as bothe those were restored whiche are put out and all other soughte oorth and called vpon which are fitte for that purpose Io. Whitgifte You know what was before alleaged out of the confession of the Churches of Helvetia that the harmlesse simplicitie of some shepheards in the olde Church did sometimes Confes. Heli more profite the Church than the great exquisite or fine or delicate but a little too proude learning of some others A great sorte thinke too well of themselues be of nature vnquiet Unquiet natures must be remoued suche of necessitie if by no meanes they can be kept in order must be remoued for the Church may not for their sake be rent torne in péeces neyther muste you that so wel allow of discipline burden other men with it cast it off your selues There is none in this Churche of Englande remoued from his ministerie but vpon iust causes and ministers must be subiect to lawes and orders Those that be willing to come into the ministerie lacke no prouoking nor mouing The ministerie hindred by whome thervnto if they be knowne but it is you your company which labour by all meanes possible to dehorte men from the ministerie persuading them that the calling is not ordinary and lawfull And surely your meaning is to make this Church destitute of ministers that it may of necessitie be driuen to admit your platforme and gouernment But you shall neuer be able to bring it to passe the more you labour the more you are detected And those wise men that séeke the truthe in sinceritie of conscience will espie your purposes dayly more and more and be moued to a iuste mis iking of them The restitution of those that be put out of the ministerie I think is soone obteyned if they will submit themselues to the order of the Church which they ought of duetie to doe bothe the lawes of God and man requiring the same Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. vlt. Agayne it can not be sayd iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntil such tyme as better may be gotten for if the Churche could procure able ministers shoulde desire that they myght be ordeyned ouer them they can not obteyne that considering that these reading ministers haue a free holde and an estate for terme of their lyues in those Churches of the whyche they are suche ministers so that by this meanes the sheepe are not onely committed to an Idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwyse than Augustine speaketh in that a not preachyng minister hath entraunce into the Church but the doore also is shut vpon hym and sparred agaynst any able minister that might happily be founde out Io. Whitgifte And would you so gladly intrude your selues into some of their roomes surely I beléeue it it is not vnknowē but that some of you haue labored to do it Wel I hau before tolde you the iudgement of the reformed Churches touching such ministers as be not able to preach béeing otherwise vertuous and godly I haue also set downe the opinion of diuers learned and godly men concerning ministers admitted to minister the sacraments whiche notwithstanding can not preache If any man vse him sel e in his ministerie leau ly or otherwise than beseemeth him hys estate for terme of lyfe is not so sure but that he maye be dispossessed of the same Otherwyse if he vse him selfe honestly and as it becommeth him thoughe he haue not the gifte of preaching whiche notwithstanding is to be wyshed God forbid that eyther you or any man else shoulde seeke to displace him that you might enioy the roome your selues And surely if the minister were but tenant at will or of Courtesie as you would séeme to haue him his state shoulde be moste slauishe and mis rable and he and his family ready to goe a begging when soeuer he displeaseth his parishe If you had tolde me where Augustine speaketh that I shoulde haue quickely let you vnderstand his meaning but his bookes be many large the sentēce you alleage shorte and therefore it were to muche for me to search it out Moreouer it improueth nothing nowe in question But with what face can you loute and iest at me for once or twice not quoting the chapter or leafe your selfe so often offending in quoting neyther chapter leafe booke nor tome Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 105. Sect. 1. There is a third fault which likewise appeareth almost in y e whole body of this seruice Lyturgie of Englād that is that the pro ite which might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped whereof the cause is for that he whiche readeth is not in some place hearde and in the moste places not vnderstanded of the people throughe the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
thinges we praye for tende to the glo ie of God who is the authour and giuer of all thinges both eternall and temporal Things that are to be prayed for are of two sortes the o e temporall the other eternall but they both perteyne to the glorie of God though not equally and in lyke manner The wyse man sayeth in the dayes of prosperitie thinke of aduersitie c. Christe Math. 24. forewarning his disciples of the external afflictions and euils which should Prayers be daunger happen as well before the destruction of Ierusalem as the ende of the worlde willeth E cle 11. them to praye before the daunger be present saying Praye that your flight bee not in wynter nor vpon the sabbath and will you not ha e vs to praye for deliueraun e from Math. 24. such perilles and daungers wherevnto we be subiect except they be present shall we not praye to be deliuered from thundering lightening stormeand tempest plague and pestilence and such like except we be in manifest perill and daunger these things beyng in Gods handes to punishe vs with euen in a moment and when we thinke it moste vnlike haue we not sundrie examples of such as haue sodenly perished with thundering and lightening and some sithence the publishing of your booke what scripture The presum tion of the Re plier haue you or authoritie of any learned man to the contrarie wyll you be credited vpyour bare worde against so many graue learned wyse and godly men that ad the penning and allowing of that booke surely that were against all order and reason and it is to great presumption for you with so light and slender reasons to go aboute the ouerthrowe of that which so many godly and learned men haue both liked and allowed except they had allowed that which the scriptures do disalowe Chap. 2. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 3. There was one Mamereus bishop of Vienna which in the tyme of great earthquakes which wer Plat. cap. Leo. in Fraunce instituted certayne supplications which the Grecians and we of them call the Letany which concerned that matter there is no doubt but as other discommodities rose in other countries they lykewyse had prayers accordingly Nowe pope Gregor e either made hymselfe or gathered the su plications that were made against the calamities of euery countrey and made of them a great Letany or supplication as Platina calleth it gaue it to be vsed in all churches which thyng albeit all churches might do for the tyme in respect of the case of the calamitie which the churches suffered yet there is no cause why it should be perpetuall that was ordeyned but for a tyme and why all landes should praye to be deliuered from the incommodities that some lande hath vin troubled with Io. Whitgifte As though we were not at all times subiect to these perilles and daungers and as though we ought not by the calamitie of other nations to be moued earnestly to pray against the like which might also happen to vs. It is not to be doubted but that the prayer of the iuste is acceptable to God and that of his mercy he beyng thereby moued doth stay from plaguing vs with earthquakes thundring and lightenyng and such like calamities wherewith he would otherwise punish vs. Truly your reasons be maruelous prophane and they might as well be alleaged The reason vsed agaynst the Letanie is of the same force agaynst the psalmes agaynst any of the Psalmes which all were made at the first vpon some speciall occasion and yet are profitable for euer in all states of the Churche to be vsed Whatsoeuer good and godly prayer in the time of any common miserie and calamitie hath bene inuented the same is at other times profitable to be vsed in the Church bycause the like punishments and plagues are in Gods handes at all times to execute vpon sinners and therefore continually to be prayed agaynst Chap. 2. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 4. The lyke may be sayde of the Gloria patri and the Athanasius Creede it was fyrst brought into the Churche to the inde that men thereby ▪ should make an open profession in the Churche of the diuinitie of the sonne of God agaynst the detestable opinion of Arius and his Disciples wherwith at that tyme maruelously swarmed almost the whole Christendome (*) A weake reason nowe that it hath pleased the Lorde to quench that fyre there is no such cause why these thinges shoulde be in the Church at the least why that Gloria patri should be so often repeated Io. Whitgifte Euen as conuenient now as it was then for it is as necessarie to maynteyne The manifestation and maintenance of truth as necessary as the suppressiō of errours truth and make it knowne as it is to suppresse errours and yet it is not vnknowne that euen in our dayes and in this Churche there haue bene Arians and I praye God there be none still I much suspect the matter not well vnderstanding wherevnto those glances of yours at Gloria patri ▪ and Athanasius Creede do tende Gloria patri besides that it conteyneth a briefe confession of the Trinitie and of the Diuinitie of Gloria patri Iesus Christe it is a magnifying and glorifying of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost thrée persons and one God and Athanasius creede is not onely an excellent Athanasius Creede confutation of Arius heresie but a playne declaration of the mysterie of the Trinitie such as is necessary for all Christian men to learne and know and therefore he that is offended with the ofte repetition or saying of eyther of them I cannot tell what I should iudge of him But vndoubtedly there is greate cause why I should suspect him at the leaste of singularitie and vnquietnesse Shall we not oftentymes rehearse the Articles of our beliefe in God the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghoste bycause all menne be now perswaded therein and none knowne that maketh any doubte the reason is all one and preuayleth as well agaynst the repeating of this as of the other I thinke your meaning is that we know to muche and therefore now we must learne to forget Well your authoritie is little and your reasons much lesse and therefore they are lyke to stande in Statu quo and this is moste sure that harme they do none but much good bycause a good thing cannot be to ofte sayde or hearde Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. vlt. Moreouer to make Benedictus Magnificat and Nunc dimittis ordinarie and dayly prayers seemeth to be a thing not so conuenient considering that they do no more concerne vs than all other scriptures do and than doth the Aue Maria as they called it For although they were prayers of thankes giuing in Simeon Zacharie and the blessed virgin Mary yet can they not be so in vs which haue not receiued like
hande of God from whome it certaynely commeth hereof we may gather that nothing is added or taken from the dignitie of it by him by whome it is ministred And therefore among men if an Epistle be sent so that the hande and seale be knowne it skilleth not who or what manner of person caryeth it euen so it is sufficient for vs to knowe the hande and seale of the Lorde in his Sacramentes by whomesoeuer they be deliuered Hereby is the errour of the Donatistes confuted who measured the vertue and woorthynesse of the Sacrament by the worthynesse of the minister Such be now a dayes our Anabaptistes which denie vs to be rightly baptized bycause we were baptized by wicked and idolatrous persons in the Popos Churche And therefore they furiously vrge rebaptisation agaynst whose folly we shall sufficiently be defended if we thinke that we were baptised not in the name of any man but in the name of the Father of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost and therefore baptisme not to be of man but of God by vvhome soeuer it be ministred Haec Caluinus Undoubtedly if this your assertion were true there had néede be some generall rebaptisation throughout all Christendome as well of men as of children for certayne it is that that Sacrament hath bene ministred to many by such as be in no degree of the ministerie Your opinion of a Deacon that he should nothing differ from a minister is very straunge and vnheard of in any writer olde or newe Shew any authour any example any Scripture that proueth or alloweth it Diaconus and Presbyter or Sacerdos be distinct in all Authours But I know wherefore this is affirmed of you euen to stoppe a gappe but it will not serue I will say no more the opinion is very absurde and vnlearned contrarie to the Scriptures and all learned Authours Neyther do you shew any reason of your Paradoxe which you ought to do seing it is Contra opinionem omnium contrarie to all mens opinions not one excepted Agaynst baptising by laye men in tyme of necessitie you haue no Scripture But Baptisme by Lay men not condemned us Scripture for the allowing of it you haue the authoritie of learned men euen such as were farre from the opinion of Augustine in condemning infantes not baptized as namely Zuinglius who also in the place before recited sufficiently answered whatsoeuer is here by you barely without any kinde of proofe set downe You haue also examples thereof in Ecclesiasticall histories Socrates Lib. 1. cap. Examples of baptisme by lay men 14. and Sozom. lib. 2. cap. 17. wryte That Alexander Bishop of Alexandria togither with the rest of the Clergie determined that baptisme which was ministred by Athanasius beyng Socrates but a childe to certayne other children to be true baptisme and not to be itterated bicause Sozomen after examination he was founde to haue vsed the woordes and right forme of baptisme hanasius beyng a childe baptised Whereby it is playne that the opinion of the Church at that tyme was the minister not to be of the substance or being of baptisme There is recited a storie in the Centuries Cent. 2. cap. 6. of a Iewe baptized in the case of necessitie by Laye men and with sande bicause there was no water Afterwarde the Bishop of Alexandria beyng demaunded of the matter De sententia Ecclesiae respondit baptizatum esse Iudaeum si modò aqua denuò perfunderetur He answered by the iudgement of the Churche that the Iewe was baptized if so be he were agayne sprinkled with water This argueth that the Church then made no doubt in the respect of the persons that ministred this Baptisme but onely bycause there lacked water This storie is cited out of Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 37. and alleaged by the Authours of the Centuries to proue the simplicitie of the Churche at that tyme aboute Baptisme neyther do they in any respect shewe any misliking of it And surely I know not wherein this opinion of yours doth differ from the Donatistes or Anabaptistes except it be in this that you speake of Laye men and they of Ministers And whereas you say that the minister is one of the chiefe partes and as it were of the The Replier in so weightie a matter vseth no proofes lyfe of the Sacrament In so weightie a cause and greate a matter it had bene well if you had vsed some authoritie of Scripture or testimonie of learned Authour for so farre as I can reade the opinion of all learned men is that the essentiall forme and as it were the lyfe of Baptisme is to Baptise in the name of the Father of the Sonne The essential poynt of baptisme and of the holy Ghoste which forme beyng obserued the Sacrament remayneth in full force and strength of whom soeuer it be ministred or howsoeuer by Ceremonies or other additiōs it is corrupted This I am sure is the answere of Zuinglius both in his booke De Baptismo and in his Elench contra Anabap. to the Anabaptists who would haue them all to be rebaptised that haue bene baptised in the Popes Churche And the same is the opinion of M. Caluine in the place before recited and of all other learned men that I haue redde And certaynely if the boyng of the Sacrament depended vpon man in any respect The force of baptisme 〈◊〉 not vpon 〈◊〉 but vpon God 1. Cor. 3. Confusion disorder is not maynteyned we were but in a miserable case for we should be alwayes in doubte whether wée were rightly baptized or no but it is most true that the force strength of the Sacrament is not in the man be he minister or not minister be he good or euill but in God himself in his spirite in his frée effectuall operation And therefore sayeth S. Paule VVhat is Paule what is Apollo c. This I speake not to bring cōfusiō into the Church for as I sayde before let men take héede that they vsurpe not an office wherevnto they be not called for God will call them to an account for so doyng but to teache a truth to take a yoke of doubtfulnesse from mens consciences and to resist an error not much differing from Donatisme and Anabaptisme Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag 114. Sect. 1. For although part of the institution in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon be obserued yet if the whole institution be not it is no more a Sacrament than the Papists communion was which celebrating it in one kinde toke a parte of the institution and lefte the other Io. Whitgifte If you can shew as manifest Scripture that the minister is of the substance of Baptisme as I can do that the cuppe is one of the essentiall partes of the supper then it is something that you say but if there be no likelyhode betwixt the one and the other than can you not want iuste reprehension for so
men in the time of necessitie maye baptise whiche bothe are denyed by you without any kinde of proofe I haue also showed howe that the necessitie of baptising Infants is vehemently defended of those that be not of S. Augustines iudgement touching their damnation if they he not baptized and I haue set downe their wordes whiche conteyne their reasons Last of all I haue put you to proue that Priuate baptisme in time of necessitie is agaynst any comma dement or institution of Christs for I denie it So that notwithstanding I suspende my iudgement for baptizing by women yet I am oute o doubt for priuate baptisme ¶ Of priuate Communion wherwith the Admonition chargeth the booke of Common prayer Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Nowe they are bounde to the booke of Common prayer in which a great number of thinges contrary to the worde of God are conteyeed c. as (k) 1. Cor. 11. 18. priuate Communion c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 81. Sect. 1. 2. I knowe not what you meane by priuate Communion if you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 meane the receyuing of one alone there is none suche allowed in the booke if you meane bicause it is ministred sometime vpon occasion in priuate houses I see not howe you can call it priuate in respect of the place if the number of Communicants be sufficient You must explicate your selfe before I can tell what you meane There is nothing in the communion booke touching the Communion contrarie to the place of S. Paule by you quoted to my 1. Cor. 11. knowledge T. C. Page 105. Sect. 1. There followeth the priuate Communion whiche is founde faulte with bothe for the place wherein it is ministred and for the small number of Communicants whiche are admitted by the booke of seruice Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently it resteth to consider of the number But before I come to that I wil speake something of the causes and beginning of receyuing in houses and of the ministring of the Communion vnto sicke folkes It is not to be denyed but that this abuse is very ancient and was in Iustine Martyrs time in Tertullians and Cyprians tyme euen as also there were other abuses crepte into the Supper of the Lorde and that very grosse as the mingling of water wyth wyne and therein also a necessitie and great mysterie placed as it may appeare bothe by Iustine Martyr and Cyprian whyche I therfore by the waye doe admonishe the Reader of that the antiquitie of this abuse of priuate Communion be not preiudiciall to the truthe no more than the mingling of water with that opinion of necessitie that those fathers had of it is or ought to be preiudiciall to that that we vse in ministring the cuppe wyth pure wyne according to the institution Io. Whitgifte This is your accustomed maner but it is besides all good maners to wype away The vsuall answering of T. C. auncient and learned authoritie by obiecting vnto the authors some imperfection in their writings or errours in their times Is this a good reason water was of necessitie required in Cypryans time in the administration of the supper and that was an errour therefore the communion at that tyme and long before ministred vnto the sicke and carried to priuate persons béeing absent was vnlawfull Suche be your arguments and this is your kinde of answering which maye be plausible to the ignorant people but nothing pleasaunt to suche as be learned This one thing More sinceritie in the mi nistratiō now than in the auncient Churche I will desire the Reader to consider that séeing our sacraments nowe be more sincerely ministred than they were in Iustines Tertullians and Cyprians tyme béeing so neare the Apostles what cause there should be for you so bitterly to inu ygh agaynst this Church in that respect Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. tovvardes the ende I say therfore that this abuse was auncient and rose vpon these causes First of all in the primitiue Churche the discipline of the Churche was so seuere and so extreme that if any whiche professed the truthe and were of the body of the Churche dyd through infyrmitie denic the truthe and ioyned hymselfe vnto the Idolatrous seruice althoughe he repenting came agayne vnto the Church yet was he not receyued to the cōmunion of the Lords supper any more And yet lying in extremitie of sicknesse and ready to depart this lyfe if they dyd require the Communion in token that the Church had forgiuen the fault and was reconciled altogither vnto that person that had so fallen they graunted that he might be partaker of it as may appeare by the (*) Euscb. li. 6. cap. 4 story of Serapton Io. Whitgifte All this is true for sometime they had thrée sixe or ten yeres space of repentance before they were admitted to the sacrament and after that tyme was expired they came as other dyd to the Communion if they liued to it if not they receyued it on their death bedde This is for my purpose for it manifestly declareth that then the Communion was ministred vnto the sicke whiche is our question it can by no meanes be drawne agaynst me Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 116. Lin. 2. An other cause was that whyche was before alleaged which is the false opinion whych they had conceyued that all those were condemned that receyued not the supper of the Lorde and therfore when as those that were as they called them Cathecumeni whych is yong Nouices in religion neuer admitted to the supper or yong chyldren fell sicke daungerously they ministred the supper of the Lord vnto them least they should want their voyage victuall as they termed it which abuse notwithstanding was neyther so auncient as the other nor so generall Io. Whitgifte This was the cause that moued some so to doe howbeit neyther was it the onely cause neyther the generall and vsuall cause but the generall and vsuall cause was the institution of Christe and the fruites and effectes of that Supper the whiche whosoeuer dothe consider accordingly will neyther cease from requiring it in tyme of extremitie neyther withholde it from suche as faythfully and earnestly desire the same and it is an easie matter to shewe that this manner of communicating in priuate families is of very great antiquitie euen in Iustinus Martyrs time as appeareth in his seconde Apologie and is by you confessed Chap. 6. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 116. Lin. 8. And there wanted not good men whiche declared their misliking and dyd decree agaynst both the abuses and agaynst all manner communicating in priuate houses As in the Councell of (*) Tom. 1. n. 58. Laodicea it was ordeyned that neyther Byshop nor Elder shoulde make any oblation that was minister any Communion in houses Io. Whitgifte This Councell dothe speake agaynst the vsuall manner of celebrating the Communion in priuate houses without any respect of necessitie whiche
as that whiche is not onely not fyttest to holde the people in the syncere worshypping of God but also as that which keepeth them in their former blyndnesse corrupt opinions which they haue conceyued of such holydayes Io. Whitgifte Things that be good and profitable and haue a necessarye vse tending to the Profitable thyngs must not be refused for the abuse edifying of the Churche and the worshyppyng of God are not to bée vtterly remoued for the abuses crepte in but the abuse muste be taken awaye and the thing still remayne If all things should bée abrogated bicause they were kepte of the Papistes there would bée a meruailous alteration bothe in the Churche and in the common weale But I haue shewed before howe farre this is from the truthe euen in some Tract 7. ca. 5. things inuented by Popes much more in suche things as were agréed vppon in the primitiue Church as many of the holydays were before the Popes tyranny though afterwardes greatly abused Holydayes as they be nowe vsed be rather meanes to withdrawe men not only The vse of our holydaies a stoppe to superstition from superstition of the dayes them selues but from all other kyndes of superstition whatsoeuer for then is God in the publike congregation truly worshipped the Sacramentes rightly ministred the scriptures and other godly Homilies read the worde of God faythfully preached all whiche be the chiefe and principall meanes to withdrawe men not onely from superstition but all kynde of errour likewyse Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 2. And if they had bene neuer abused neyther by the Papistes nor by the Iewes as they haue bene and are daylye yet such makyng of holydayes is neuer without some greate daunger of brynging in some euyll and corrupt opinions into the myndes of men Io. Whitgifte Imaginations and gheasses may not go for reasons and I haue shewed before that the holydayes nowe obserued in the Churche of Englande bée meanes to roote euill and corrupte opinions out of the heartes of men so farre are they from ingendring the contrary Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 5. I wyll vse an example in one and that the chiefe of holydayes and most generally of longest tyme obserued in the Churche which is the feaste of Easter whiche was kept of some more dayes of some fewer Howe many thousandes are there I wyll not saye of the ignoraunt Papistes but of those also which professe the Gospell which when they haue celebrated those dayes with diligent heede taken vnto theyr lyfe and with some earnest deuotion in praying and hearing the worde of God do not by and by thynke that they haue well celebrated the feaste of Easter and yet haue they thus notably deceyued them selues For Saint Paule teacheth the celebratyng of the feaste of the 1. Cor. 5. Christians Easter is not as the Iewes Easter was for certayne dayes but sheweth that wee must keepe this feaste all the dayes of our lyfe in the vnleauened bread of sinceritie and of truthe by which we see that the obseruing of the feaste of Easter for certayne dayes in the yeare doth pul out of our myndes or euer wee bee aware the doctrine of the Gospell and causeth vs to reste in that neare consyderation of our duties for the space of a fewe dayes whiche shoulde bee extended to all our lyfe Io. Whitgifte What do you condemne the feast of Easter also would you haue it abrogated The apostles obserued Easter bicause it hath bene abused do you not knowe that the Apostles them selues obserued it and the Churche euer sithence their tyme reade Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 23. and you shall finde it to be a tradition of the Apostles per vse the. 24. and 25. chapter of the same Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 29. booke you shall vnderstand by the testimony of Polycrates all the other byshops in Asia that Philip the Apostle Iohn the Euangelist Polycarpus his scholler other byshops likewyse of greatest antiquitie kept solēly the feast of Easter But why should I labour to proue that that all histories all aunciēt fathers al late wryters al learned men confesse and especially séeing that S. Augustine ad Ianu. 119. sayeth that the obseruation of Easter hath the authoritie from the scriptures and séeing also that the same feaste with others is allowed by the confession of the Churches in Heluetia The wordes of which confession be these Moreouer if Churches as they may by Christian libertie Confess Helue kepe religiouslye the remembraunce of Christe his birth circumcision passion resurrection ascention into heauen and sending his holy ghoste vnto his disciples wee well allowe it Therefore I cannot but marueyle that you so boldely without grounde for abuse sake condemne euen the feaste vsed and allowed by the Apostles and continued in the Churche without contradiction of any one worthy of credite to this daye Surely you may as well reason that the scriptures are not to be read because that heretikes haue so greatly abused them Th place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. is nothing to your purpose for though he borrows a Metaphor of the Iewes passeouer to moue the Corinthiās to purenesse and integritie of lyfe yet doth he not abrogate the feaste of Easter if he had ment any such thing as he did not yet must it haue bene vnderstanded of the Iewes passeouer not of celebration of the memorie of Christes resurrection whiche we commonlye call Easter Dothe hée that sayeth the whole lyfe of a Christian man ought to bee a perpetuall faste denye that there maye bée anye daye or tyme appoynted to faste in A Christian man muste euer serue God and worshyppe hym shall there not therefore be certayne dayes appoynted for the same This is a verye symple argument Saint Paule wylleth vs to purge out the olde leuen that we maye be a newe lumpe c. also to kepe the feaste not with olde leuen neither with the leuen of malitiousnesse c. therefore we maye not celebrate the feaste of Easter once in the yeare I denye this argument The obseruing of Easter doth rather put vs in mynde of the doctrine of the Gospell and drawe vs to a more nere consyderation of the benefites that wée haue receyued by the death passion and resurrection of Christe and I suppose that there are fewe godlye disposed Christians that doe not thynke it moste conuenient and profitable that such feastes especiallye shoulde bée in the Churche reteyned neyther is euerye contentious persons imagination and surmyse what maye happen to bée so greatlye regarded that it shoulde bée sufficient to condemne anye thyng that maye haue a profitable vse in the Churche by whome so euer it is inuented much lesse if it hath bene vsed of the Apostles them selues and euer sythence theyr tyme continued in the Churche as I haue shewed this feaste to haue bene Th weakenesse of man is greate therefore as hée is
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
encreased But these thyngs are not de substantia Sacramenti and therfore not sufficient to proue that the Supper is not sincerely ministred M. Bucer likewyse in his censure vpon the booke of Cōmon prayers is of the same iudgement his wordes be these The thirde chapter M. Bucers opinion is of the substance forme and breaking of bread vvhiche all doe vvell inough agree vvith the institution of Christe vvhome it is manifest to haue vsed vnleuened breade and easy to be broken for hee brake it and gaue to his disciples peeces of the breade broken Touching the forme and figure vvhether it were rounde or square there is nothyng declared of the Euangelistes And bicause this breade is vsed onely for a signe and not for corporall nourishemente I see not vvhat can be reprehended in this description of the breade vvhiche is in this booke excepte some vvoulde peraduenture haue it thicker that it maye the more fully represente the forme of true breade T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. I haue spoken of this bread before in generall and if M. Doctor did not disagree with himselfe we are here well agreed For first he fay the it skilleth not what bread we haue 〈◊〉 by and by he sayth that he wisheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice likewise assigneth which is to auoyd superstition and it is certaynly knowen by experience that in diuers places the ignorant people that haue bin misseled in poperie haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kneeled vnto it and held vp their hands whilest the minister hathe giuen it not those only whiche haue receiued it but those whiche haue bin in the Churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I know and haue seene with my eyes Another reason is alleadged by M. Bucer whiche is that there being some thicker substance of bread and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consideration of the mind which is conneyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the frute of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther (*) Or else you speake of a matter you know not Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto him or be corrupted or else were not euen in his owne time here thought good substantiall and sufficient when there is some cause by act of Parliament afterward found I meane in the second booke of King Edward to mislike water cakes and to change them into common bread Howsoeuer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thing to talke of a water cake in the vse of y e supper in King Edwards dais before they were iustly abolished and another thing now being reuoked after they were renioued Io. Whitgifte I am constant and agrée with my selfe in the truth I thanke God for it I knowe the kind of bread to be indifferents my priuate iudgemēt I haue in my Answer vttered But in such matters I submit my selfe to the determination of the Church to whome God doth giue his spirit most aboundantly so long as it followeth and embraceth the truth The daunger that you speake of is in the forme and figure of the bread not in the other qualities nor in the substance and therfore not perteyning to any thing that I haue spoken For the question is of leauened or vnleauened breade not of roundnesse or squarenesse c. Although the forme and figure also is indifferente and in the power of the Churche to appoynt wherfore there may no schisme or diuision in the Churche be made for it M. Bucers censures were vpon the firste booke in King Edwards time not vppon Bucers censure vpon the first booke 〈◊〉 King Edwards days the second therefore you are deceiued The Church hath authoritie in things indifferent to abolish or reuoke as occasion serueth and therefore that circumstance is not worthe the noting Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 1. Besides that we be called by the example of our sa ionce Christ to vse the supper vsual and common bread for what time our Sauioure Christ celebrated his supper there was no other bread to be gotten but vnleauened bread there being astraight charge giuen by the law that there should be then no leauened bread and it is not to be doubted but that if there had in then when he celebrated his supper as at other times nothing but leauened bread he would not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bin made for that purpose of celebrating his supper Io. Whitgifte It was not vsuall bread but properly appoynted for the celebrating of the passouer Christ vsed vnleuened bread and then to be vsed and not otherwise vsually and commonly for their vsuall and common bread was leauened wherefore this maketh against you and if you will haue the commaundements that appertethe to the eating of the passouer perpetuall Pa. 130. Sect. 2 and to be referred to the celebrating of the Lords supper as by that precept 2. Chro. 35. before alleadged it seemeth you would then must we make it a matter of necessitie to haue vnleauened bread but as that is 〈◊〉 so is this also for the kind of bread is indifferent although as M. Bucer sayth it commeth nearer to the institution The kind of bread of itself indifferent of Christe to vse vnle uened bread b cause he did celebrate his supper with it if there wer not other circumstances and reasons to moue the Church sometimes to vse the contrary Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. But this is a grosse ouersight of M. Doctor both 〈◊〉 this section and that whiche goeth 〈◊〉 fore that he hath not learned to make a difference betwene that which is not ncerely done that which is not at al done For in the former 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the Admonition bicause they conclude that for as much as there is no examination therefore it is not 〈◊〉 and sincerely ministred For saythe he the examination of the communicantes is not of the Iubstaunce of the sacrament and in this section he saith that for as much as it is not of the substance of the sacramēt whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therefore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred but he ought to haue vnderstanded that if eyther the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it which is the institution which things are only substantiall parts were wanting that then there should haue bin no sacrament ministred at all but they being reteyned and yet other things vsed which are not conuenient the sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popish baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spittle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumperie it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thing to minister sincerely and another thing to minister so that that which is of
Lorde These therefore be they whome we call excommunicated and who for two respectes are not members of the Churche one according to men bycause they are excluded from the holy felowship of the faythfull the other according to God bycause that saying of Christe is sure that that is bounde in heauen whiche is ryghtlye bounde of the Churche in the earth But it is an other thyng truelye to bee bounde in heauen than to bee cast out of that true kyngdome of heauen whiche neuer happeneth to anye of the electe For that saying of Christe standeth that those shall neuer bee caste out whome the Father hath giuen the Sonne and that of Lohn if they had bene of vs they woulde haue taried with vs and that of the Apostle the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale the Lorde knoweth who be is Therefore as touching Christe these are sayd not to be his nor members of the Churche not as the firste whiche are reprobate and damned but bycause for a tyme as concernyng the force and efficacie of the spirite they are without hym as beyng so engraffed in hym that they receyue not that lyuelye nouryshement of the spirite of Christe for a tyme that is tyll grace of repentaunce be gyuen them To conclude the difference betwixt these and the firste is such as is betweene a legge of woode ioyned cunninglye to a true bodye whiche notwithstanding is not a legge in deede neyther is truely called a parte of that man and betwyxt a true legge that yet for a tyme receyueth not nouryshement in suche sorte that vnles it be refreshed by the strengthe of some sharpe medicine it wyll necessaryly putrific and cleane peryshe VVherefore seeing these thinges be thus and charitie byddeth vs to hope well of all yea and also to take care for them whiche are helde as captiues in the snare of the Deuyll God forbydde that the Parentes beyng excommunicated wee should conclude that theyr posteritie belongeth not to the kyngdome of God Furthermore there is great difference betweene those whiche although they bee notorious offendours neuerthelesse departe not from the Churche and betweene those that are manifeste rennegates ioyning them selues with the enimies to oppresse the truthe of the Gospell Further it were vnreasonable to esteeme of Papistes muche lesse Christians excommunicated no otherwise than of Turkes for although it bee vnpossible to serue the Pope and Christ togyther yet it is certayne that Poperie is an erring of the Christian Churche VVherefore the Lorde hath in the middest of that goulfe of Papistrie preserued Baptisme that is the first entering into the Churche whereby it appeareth as also the thing it selfe proueth in vs that although Papisme be not the Churche yet the Churche hathe bene and is as it were drowned or couered in it whiche can not by anie meanes bee sayde of the Turkes whiche neuer gaue theyr names to Chryst. Lastly for so muche as the goodnesse of God is extended to a thousande generations that is as it were without ende it were harde if wee shoulde iudge of the children whether they belong to the couenant of God or no by the profession of their last Parentes Therefore of all these argumentes ioyned togither we conclude that the children of persons excommunicate abyding yet in the Churche of God can by no right bee debarred from Baptisme if in case a meete suretie bee had whiche will make promyse to the Church that they shall be vertuously brought vp which I thinke ought to be done of the Ministers them selues and other Godly men rather than theyr Baptisme shoulde anie longer be deferred Yet it shall not be amisse if the Minister before he baptise the infant taking hereof occasion earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present to epentance before the assemblie whiche is oftentymes practised in oure Churches Hitherto Beza Chap. 4. the 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 2. And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the Parentes of the childe be vnknowen if it be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promyse of seing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so much as it is founde in a place where the churche is and therefore by likelyhoode to apperteyne to some that was of the churche I thynke it may be baptised if the churche thynke it good in this last case Io. Whitgifte And why should you but thinke so what reason is there why it should not be baptised But yet this answere of yours dothe nothing iustifie the Aomonition Whiche would The parentes to presente their chyldren if conuentently makyng an open confession of that faythe wherein he would haue his chylde baptised For this can not be done where the Parentes be vnknowen neither is in such case any other man able to testifie of what faythe or behauiour the parentes were Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. vlt. Then he goeth forth in the. III. Page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckened may be baptised and demaundeth whither a wicked father may haue a good childe a Papist or Heretike father a beleeuing chylde yes verily may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet their children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doth fitste appeare by confession But you say the Papiste an Heretike be Baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme beyng cut of from the Churche maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismaell and Esau whiche albeit they were circumcised yet beyng caste out of the Churche they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the Churche Now you see (*) It is poyson in deede and the same whi he I suspected the poyson as you terme it which lieth hidde vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the reste of that section there is nothing but that which he spake of before onely the Eldership is amed which commeth to be intreated of in the next section Io. Whitgifte If their baptisme be so cut of that it also taketh away the priuiledge from their children howe can they be admitted agayne into the Churche without rebaptisation S. Augustine in the place before recited sayeth that Heretikes though they be cut of from the Churche yet they do retayne their Baptisme whiche beyng true there is no reason to seclude their children frō it I cannot learne but that the Sonnes of Ismaell were circumcised for it is written of the Egyptians as P. Martyr doth note P. Martyr in 4. Rom. that they circumcided at 14. yeares of age bycause Ismael was then circumcised Which tyme of circumcision the Arabians obserued in lyke manner And therefore it is not vnlike but that the Posteritie of Ismael was circumcised And as for the Sonnes of Esau it is not like that they were debarred from circumcision
gubernatores tum ciuiles tum ecclesiastic s The gouernours of the Church as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall Howsoeuer it is the place béeing doubtful it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors as perpetuall Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition In steade of these Seniors in r Rom. 1 8 euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and yet we maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 115. Sect. vlt. You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. He that exhorteth let hym vvayte on exhortation he that distribute h let him do it vvith simplicitie he that ruleth vvith diligence he that shevveth mercy vvith cherefulnesse To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither or to what purpose you should alleage that place it neyther proueth that in euery Churche there was Elders neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor and of the Doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Church wherof one was occupied in the gouernment onely the other in prouiding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places as M. Caluine M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easily appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to dally with the scriptures to make them a nose of waxe in alleaging of these to proue the Elders that al men might vnderstande what terrible outc ies he maketh as in this place so almost in al other when there is cause that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth Io. Whitgifte The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y e former M. Caluine Caluine sayth that these words of the Apostle Qui pr est in diligentia he that ruleth with diligence may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus to all kind of rule or gouernment And M. Martyr vpon the same words sayth that he doubteth not multas fuisse in Martyr Beza ecclesia praefecturas that there were many gouernments in the Church M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros yet he addeth qui ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant which also sometime dyd preach the word M. Bucer sayth playnely Est praeterea qui praeest qui pascendi regendi ecclesiā mun accepit Bucer Furthermore he doth rule whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor not any vnpreaching Senior But what kinde of argument call you this he that ruleth must do it with diligence Ergo there must be Seniors in euery parish You should rather conclude thus therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment muste doe the same diligently and carefully So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors yet do they The place Rom. 12. is generall think y t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates gouernours therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors And M. Beza séemeth by y e name of Seniors to vnderstād the ministers of the word that is Bishops pastors and there is no doubt but that y e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt which y ◠Apostle hath generally spoken of al for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures to abuse them as the Papists do yea to make thē a nose of waxe as I haue sayd before Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to write not so muche to pro e that there were Seniors in euery Churche which is a thing confessed as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation esides his confession I neede haue no more but his owne reason For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church ▪ was in that tun wherin there were no christian Magistrates and when there was perfecution but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution and no christiā Magistrates therfore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation Io. Whitgifte If this be a good argument S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth he that uleth must doe it diligently Ergo euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Seniors Or this the Apostle 1. Cor. 12. sayth that God hath placed in his Churche gouernours Ergo euery parish must haue a Seigniorie Or this Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors therefore in euery Church there must be a company of Seniors to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted If I say these be good sure argumēts then haue I corruptly interpreted those places But if these arguments be not sounde if they haue no sequele in them if they be agaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates and long before especially for suche Elders as you meane if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God and finally if it bring in confusion then haue I truely interpreted those places and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche I saye still neyther is that the questiō for I aske y ◠question of your Seniors not of Ministers whome I call Seniors neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish there was suche a Seigniorie but in euery chiefe Citie nor that it was at all tymes in persecution and where there was no Christian Magistrate but ometimes neyther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times but that it may be And therefore you had done well if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes for all my graunte ¶ VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the seconde
standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Io. Whitgifte What M. Doctor was able to say more was vnknowne to you If he woulde alledge as vaine reasons as you do and spende paper in vttering his owne fansies without eyther scripture or other authorities as your vsuall manner is he would at the least haue séemed to say much as you do who indéede say nothing at all I say againe that there be in the Churche that is in the externall societie of the Tract 3 cap. 6 diuisi 2. 4. The Magistrate may better 〈◊〉 offenders thaÌ„ the Semors Gual 1. cor Church both Papists Atheists drunkards c. and your deniall of it I haue shewed before to be vaine I say surther that those and such like offenders may best be reformed by the ciuill Magistrate and by corporall punishment as for your Seniors they will not set a straw by them For as M. Gualter sayth They which cannot be brought into order by the authoritie of a lawfull magistrate and by lawes will much lesse suffer themselues to be punished by the commaundement of Seniors or of an Ecclesiasticall senate whome with all their solemnitie they will laugh to scorne Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 4. vlt. Afterwarde he asketh what Seniors may be had in most of the parishe in Englande fit for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page wher he also addeth Pastors asking where may be gotten such Pastors as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other than those which the word of God requireth Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no Elders in any Church bycause fit men are not to be gotten in all parishes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that for asmuch as we haue not fit and able Pastors for euery Churche that therfore we ought to haue no able Pastor in any Church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able Pastors in as many places as they may be gotten how can he denie that we should haue Elders in those Churches where fitte men maye be had Io. Whitgifte The question is necessarie and cannot be so shifted of But you are still like vnto Difference betweene the necessitie of Pastors and of Seniors your selfe The reason of hauing Pastors of hauing Seniors is nothing like For the office of a Pastor is perpetuall so is not the office of your Senior Pastors be necessarie in the Church of Christ as well for the administration of the sacraments as for the preaching of the word and other Ecelesiasticall functions so be not Seniors The office of a Pastor is not only described in the scriptures but commaunded also shew where the office of your Senior is so The office of a Pastor derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate but the office of your Seniors spoyleth him of the one halfe and in a manner of the whole as shall hereafter more plainly appeare Wherefore this may well be true that although suche Pastors as are to be wished cannot be prouided for euery place yet there must be suche as may be conueniently come by But the same is not true in Seniors being neyther necessary nor where a Chistian Magistrate is profitable but the contrary And these reasons will serue to denie that of Seniors which we grauÌ„t of Pastors séeing the office of a Pastor is commaunded as necessarie and perpetuall and not the office of a Senior Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 2. And I say further where we haue an expresse commaundement layd vpon vs to do a thing there all disputations must cease of hardnesse of impossibilitie of profyte or else of peace For first God hathe not commaunded any orders in his Churche whiche are impossible and if they seeme hard it must be remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so hard which diligence and trauaile to bring it to passe will not ouercome whiche thing if it be proued true in worldly affayres the truth thereof will much more appeare in the matters perteyning vnto God considering that if God with his blessing do surmountè all the difficulties in worldly matters which are otherwise hard to be compassed he will in his owne matters and matters perteyning to his glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hilies although they be neuer so high playne the ways be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh a way tracked and easy to go in and to walke towardes that kingdome wherevnto he calleth vs. Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course to no purpose For firste you shoulde haue proued The office of 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 com that the office of your Seniors is commaunded which I vtterly denie Then should you haue declared that the same commaundement is perpetuall for many thinges are commaunded in the new testament which be not perpetnall as the washing of féete Iohn 13. to abstayne à sanguine suffocat Act. 15. to elect and choose wydowes to 〈◊〉 13. 〈◊〉 15. 〈◊〉 5. minister in the Churche 1. Timo. 5. and suche lyke So that you haue craftily passed ouer two principall poyntes and those whiche oughte to be the groundes of your cause Fyrste therefore I denye that thys office of Saeniors is commaunded any where in the new Testamente then I say that if it were commaunded yet is it but a tempor ill commaundement Those two pointes not being by you proued the words you vtter are but in vaine Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 15. Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a Churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is with knowledge discretion and wisedome and there are such as S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profyt ble callyng and especially to a publike callyng God doth poure on his giftes of that person which is so called so plentyfully that he is as it were sodeynly made a newe man whych if he d ee in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimonie 1. Sam. 10. of the church with experience of their former godlie behauiour chosen to such offices of weight So that there is not nor can not be any want to obey Gods commaundement and to establish the order in the Church which God hath appointed but our owne eyther negligence and slouthfulnes or fearfulnesse or ambition or some other leauen which we nourishe within our selues Io. Whitgifte This lacketh proose for sometymes the churche of God is where there is neyther good Pastor nor méete gouernour as in the tyme of Elias And though God somtymes bestow his gifts vpon y â—
with you in like maner say where doth any man charge them with so saying yet doth the same necessarily follow vpō their reason They say not the gouernment of a fewe of the best but of a companie which signifieth many and why should not this argument be good if the gouernment of a fewe godly men be better than the gouernment of one bicause one is easier ouerthrowne by bribing than moe then is also the gouernment of many godly men better than the gouernment of a few bicause a few may sooner be corrupted than many and consequently by the same reason the moe that gouerne the better This reason you haue glaunced by and not touched and yet it enforceth a manyfest absurditie agaynst the Authors of the Admonition For it is too absurde to saye that a Popular estate is the best state neyther will any affirme it but those which woulde be Popular You are neuer able to shew eyther by Diuinitie or Philosophie that there are moe There are no more lawfull kinds of gouernmēt than three lawfull kindes of gouernment than thrée that is Democraticall Aristocratical and Monarchicall and of these bothe the Scripture and Philosophie alloweth of the Monarchie as simply the best The gouernment of this kingdome is a right and true Monarchie Neither do you The gouernment of thys realme a true Monarchie know what a Monarchie is when you call it a mixt estate for that is called a Monarchie where the chiefe care and gouernment of the common wealth is committed to one as it is in this kingdome in euery respect Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1. It is sufficient nowe to admonish you that although it be graunted that the gouernment of 〈◊〉 be the best in the common wealth yet it can not be in the Church for the Prince may wel be Monarche immediatly betweene God and the common wealth but no man can be Monarch betweene God and his Church but Christ which is the onely head thereof Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole Church and ouer euery particular Churche and ouer euery singular member in the Church is in Christ alone Io. Whitgifte If you meane of the vniversall Churche onely Christ is the head neyther hath he Christ the only head of hys vniuersall church any Uicegerent to supply that vniuersall care ouer the whole Churche But if you speake of particular Churches as the Churche of Englande the Churche of Denmarke c. then as the Prince is chiefe gouernour and head of the common wealthe The Prince head of a particular church vnder God so is he of the Churche likewise For it is certayne that the christian Magistrate vnder Christ hath as great authoritie as the Magistrate had vnder y e law But then the ciuill Magistrates had chiefe authoritie bothe in matters of the common wealth and of the Churche also as héereafter it shall more playnely appeare therefore the Magistrate ought to haue the same nowe in like maner T. C. doth but T. C. glaunceth at the magistrate glaunce at the Magistrate bicause he dare not speake playnly but suche licentious spéeches thoughe voyde of all reason and grounde may peraduenture sinke déeper into the heart of the subiects especially of the Papist who hathe already conceyued the same opinion of the ciuill Magistrate than will be rooted out in shorte time so carefull are these men in procuring to the Prince due obedience and so faythfull are they in maynteyning hir authoritie according to their othe and duetie Chap. 2. the. 22. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 2. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. Both the names offices of Seniors were extinguished before Ambrose tyme as he himselfe dothe testifie writing vpon the fifth of the fyrst to Timothie In deede as Ambrose sayth writing vpon the fyfth of the fyrst to Timothie The Synagogue and after the Church had Seniors vvithout vvhose counsell nothing vvas done in the Churche but that was before hys time and before there was any christian Magistrates or any Churche established T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. Last of al (*) Vntrue for it is not alleaged for that 〈◊〉 to proue that there ought to be no Seniors in the church vnder a christian Prince he citeth Ambrose authoritie both in the. 114. and. 132. pages which sayth that the Synagogue or Church of the Iewes and after that the Church of the Christians had Seniors without whose counsel nothing was done in the Church whervpon he concludeth that for as much as they were not in Ambrose time therefore they were not vnder a christian Prince Io. Whitgifte This is most vntrue I alleage not Ambrose in eyther of those places to proue that Seniors ought not to be vnder a christian Prince as the Reader may vnderstande euidently by my words Only I confesse that there was Seniors and I alleage Ambrose partly for that purpose partly to shewe that both their names and offices were extinguished before his time no man liuing can gather any other sense out of my words Wherfore that conclusion vpon Ambrose wordes is yours it is not myne and I am sory that malice hath throwne you so déepe into y e pit of vntruth that you can not be gotten out of it No cloake or shadow can couer this deformitie of yours Chap. 2. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 2. And heere M. Doctor hathe in one sentence proclaymed bothe his great ignorance in the whole storie of the Church and withall cyther a maruelous abusion and 〈◊〉 him selfe to be mislead by some vnaduised prompter or subtile foxe that thought to deceyue him or else a notable cuill conscience whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe His ignorance dothe appeare partly in that he sayththat bicause there were no Seniors in Ambrose Church and in those Churches about him therefore there was none at all but most manifestly in that he sayth for so muche as there were no Seniors in Ambrose time therfore there was none vnder a christian Prince as though there were not many yeres before Ambrose time christian Emperours when as betweene the time of S. Ambrose beeing Bishop the time of Philip the sonne of Gordias the first christian Emperour there is more than 150. yeres and betwene the time of Constantine the Emperour and the time of Ambrose beeing Bishop there be aboue 80. yeres And if M. Doctor had euer read the Ecclesiasticall stories he mought haue (*) An vntruthe else name your stories found easily the Eldership moste florishing in Constantines time and other times when as the peace of the Christians was greatest Io. Whitgifte Except it were to set fóorth your owne knowledge to leaue a publike testimonie of your great humilitie and modestie you would not so immodestly accuse M. Doctor of ignorance though you had cōuinced him of it as you neyther haue done nor are able to do in that that he professeth Likewise except your selfe vsed prompters patched your
proued And wee can forbidde no man from the communion although thys prohibition be not mortall but medicinable excepte he eyther willingly confesse it or be accused and conuicted eyther in some secular or ecclesiasticall courte for who dare take vnto hymselfe to be both accuser and iudge And this is my iudgement of the authoritie of Bishops in excommunicating The abuses crept into this Church in the executing of it I doe not defende as it is manyfeste in my Answere but wishe them by due order and authoritie with spéede reformed Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Lin. 7. And it is to bee obserued here that bothe in this parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes things were referred vnto the Synodes prouinciall nationall or general as the case required so if the elders of any Church shall determine any thing contrary to the word of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the parties which are greeued may haue recourse for remedie vnto the elders and Pastors of diuers Churches that is to say vnto Synods of Shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuentent by the Church according to the difficultie or waight of the matters which are in controuersie whyche meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of such difficulties which the seuerall presoyteries cannot so well iudge of but also to the end that common counsell might be taken for the best remedie of the vices or incommodities which eyther the Churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those things whiche cannot be decided by the eldership of the Churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those which for their hardnes cānot be there decided must be brought into the Synods of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bin done in the Apostles times and in the Churches which followed them long after Io. Whitgifte So shall there be turbarum contentionum satis much vnquietnesse for one or two busy Pastors suche as your schole can yelde good store of woulde inuent matter ynough The tumultuous and dis orderly order propounded by y e Replyer to trouble the whole Church and Pastors should then be compelled to be as much absent from their benefyces by reason of those Synods as they be now vpon other occasions Lord what a tumultuous Church would this be if this plat for me might take place In the meane while the Prince shoulde be a cyphar and onely wayte to vnderstand what kynde of Religion ceremonies and gouernment these Seigniories and their Synodes would prescribe vnto hir to mainteyne and defende for the must haue potestatem facti onely not Iuris she must take lawes she must giue none she must execute whatsoeuer it pleaseth master Pastors and their Seniors to commaund hir else wil they stirre vp the whole countrey against hir at the least she must be excommunicated me thinketh I see the very beginning of a newe Popedome Haue you shewed this cōfused order to haue bin in y e Apostles time or in y e primitiue Church T. C. ascribeth his owne deuise to the Apostles Where haue you shewed it or when will you proue it Synodes there were indéede and necessary it is that when occasion serueth they should be but your Seigniorie in euery Towne or parish vnder a Christian Prince neuer was neyther is it possible that without confusion it should be as I haue before declared But what audacitie is this to ascribe an order inuented by your selfe vpon the whiche scarse thrée of you do agrée if you were well examined and in the which your selfe or euer it were long would espie some thing to be altered vnto the Apostles Of Byshops Courts and their officers Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 1. These things standing in this sort al those courts of Byshops and Archbyshops must needes fall which were by Antichrist erected against this lawfull iurisdiction of eldership as the court of faculties and those which are holden by Chauncellours commissaries officialls and such like the describing of the corruptions whereof would require a whole booke of whiche I will note the principall heads and summes Io. Whitgifte And not these courts only but all the courts in England would be deuoured vp of your Seigniorie yea each the Princes regall authoritie as may appeare partly by that which is said before and partly by that which shall follow hereafter For what iurisdiction will not your Seigniorie vsurp what matters would it not presume to determine what degrée of person would it not tread vnder foote but let vs heare what you say of these courts Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 2. First for that they enter into an office which perteyneth not vnto them but to euery particular Church and especially to the eldership and gouernours of the Church and therfore although they should do nothing but that which were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labours vnto men much lesse to God putting their sickle in another mans haruest For neyther by the truth of the word of God doth that apperteyne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors own iudgment if his yea were yea and his nay nay considering that he sayd before that this iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should perteyne vnto the Byshop as he is called to whome notwithstanding it doth not apperteyne yet were it not lawfull for him to translate thys office vnto another and to appoynt one to do it when he listeth no more than he can appoynt them to do his other offices of ministring as preaching the word and ministring the sacraments Io. Whitgifte Your seuerall gouernment by eldership in euery parish I vtterly reiect as neyther iustifiable by Gods worde nor any example of any churche at any tyme vnder a Christian prince in that maner and forme by you prescribed The courte of faculties medleth not with excommunications The courtes of Chauncellours c. haue many moe matters to deale withall than excommunication for that is but one parte of discipline that they vse or ought to vse only vpon an extremitie concerning the whiche discipline and the ministers therof I am of the selfe same same iudgement that I was before and my yea is yea Gualter in .1 ▪ Cor. 5. and my nay is naye And yet it I will tell you what I haue read since in M Gualters commentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. If any would appoynt some kynde of separation or shuttyng out which should be executed by a lawfull magistrate and should rather be ciuill A kynde of ciuill excommunication than ecclesiasticall we will not be against them For the lawes of our cities also doo punish them with excommunication
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish
daye you sayde it was a very simple Sermon that had not some goodnesse Page 123. Sect. 1. and edyfying and very slender meate whiche is not better beyng gyuen euerye daye than the best and deyntyest meate once onelye in a month c. And howe can hée bée taken so vnprouided that is able to preach so often or why should the woorde of God be more negligently handled by a minister preaching a funerall sermon vpon suddeyne warning than by the same minister preaching two sermons euery daye your memory waxeth feble towardes the ende of your booke else would you not haue so reasoned against your selfe But why may not he that preacheth a funerall sermon haue sufficient warning or if he haue not why may he not refuse to preache it There is no order or lawe that doth of necessitie binde him vnto it Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Moreouer considering that these funerall sermons are at the request of ryche men and those which are in authoritie and are very seldome at the buriall of the poore there is brought into the church contrary to the worde of God an acceptation of persones which ought not to bee For although the minister may giue to one more honour than to an other according as the calling or degree requireth yet in his ministerie and that which perteyueth vnto his office he ought to shew him selfe indifferent and therefore preache as well at the death of the poore as of the ryche and bicause he cannot well do both it is moste conuenient to leaue both Io. Whitgifte This is your thirde reason but it toucheth only the persone and not the cause for it reproueth the minister for not preaching as well at the buriall of the poore as of the ryche which if it be a faulte it is the fault of the man not of the thing and therfore no good reason to condemne funerall sermons But you saye he can not do both and therfore it is moste conuenient that he leaue both shall he at no tyme do good bicause he can not do it at all tymes bicause he is not able to preache euery daye shall he not therefore preache once in the wéeke or if he be not able to preache once in the wéeke shall hée not therefore being able preache once in a fortnight what kinde of reasoning call you this And yet if your reason for preaching twyse a day before mentioned be good and allowable I knowe not why y e minister may not be able to preach at the burial as well of the poore as of the ryche and yet there may be sometymes more occasion to preache at the buriall of the ryche than at the buriall of the poore neither is this that acceptatiō of persons which is in scripture prohibited for there be degrées of persons and seuerall dignities Howbeit funeral sermons be rather in the respect of the liuing than of the dead Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. If so be that M. Doctor will saye that it is good that notable and famous men should haue their commendation to the ende that both the goodnes of God towardes them might be the better knowen and others the sooner drawen to followe their example I graunt it is so and the scripture doth both approue it and sheweth what meane is best to do that by For so we reade that Ieremy 2. Chro. 35. 2. sam 1. and. 3. the Prophete commēded that godly and zealous Prince Iosias in writing verses of his death He could haue as easely preached but this he thought the best waye So did also Dauid wryte verses at the death of Saule and Ionathan and Abner in which he commendeth their giftes and graces which the Lord had bestowed vpon them There were in deede of auncient tyme funerall orations as appeareth in Gregorie Nazianzene but they sauoured of the manner of Athens where he was brought by where also this custome of funerall orations was vsed as may be seene in the seconde booke of Thucidides story by an oration of Pericles And although this custome was not in Nazianzens time so corrupte as afterwardes yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches gaue occasion of further corruption which ensued And to say the truthe it was better vsed amongst the Athenians than amongst the Christians For there it was merely ciuill and the oration at the death of some notable personage made not by a minister but by an orator appointed therfore which I thinke may well be done Io. Whitgifte Ieremie lamented Iosias death and writte verses vpon it Dauid also writte verses at the death of Saule there were funerall orations in Nazianzens time and it is lawefull to haue orations at the death of noble personages c. therefore there may be no funerall sermons this argument hath neither necessary nor probable conclusion for they may both bée vsed and be so commonly at the buriall of notable personages M. Foxe reporting the vse of the The order of the Primitiue churche in funerals Primitiue churche in this matter sayth thus In funeralles priestes then flocked not together selling Trentalles and Diriges for sweping of purgatorie but onely a funerall concion was vsed with Psalmes of praises and songs of their worthy deedes and alleluia sounding M. Foxe par 1 Pag. 146. on highe which did shake the golden seelings of the temple as witnesseth Nazianzene Ambrose and Ierome c. Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 162. Sect. 2. And if M. Doctor will saye that there might be sermons although they be not mentioned neither in the olde Testament nor in the newe I haue answered before that seeing the holy Ghost doth describe so diligently the least circumstances of buriall he would not haue omitted that being the greatest And let it be obserued that this deuise of mans brayne bringeth foorth the same fruite that other do that is dryueth quite awaye a necessary dutie of the minister which is to comforte with the worde of God the parties which be greeued at the death of their friendes that considering the sore is particular he applye vnto it a particular playster which is very seldome or neuer doone and yet a necessary dutie as of a good Christian so especially of the minister whiche can best doe it and to whome it moste apperteyneth Io. Whitgifte No I saye not only that which you do not sufficiently improue but this also that if there were none such then yet may there be nowe being a matter perteyning to edifying and to the preaching of the Gospell of Christe And you can no more proue by this argument that there ought to be no funerall sermons than you can proue that there ought to be no women at the receiuing of the communion or no baptisme mininistred in churches with diuers such like things wherof there is no expresse mention that they were in the Apostles time An other of your weighty argumēts is this The minister
made with scraping the sée vpon the ground as it is vsed by them in derision so is it of it selfe ridiculeus and not worthie to be answered besides it is vntrue for it hindereth no more the worde béeing read than hawking and spitting bindereth the same being preached But Lorde how sparing are you of time that will not spare so much as may serue a man to bow his knée in Well it is but a pretence to helpe out with a merie argument for I dare say neyther they nor you are so vndiscrete as to vse it in good sadnesse Their second reason hash some more grauitie in it though not much more weight and your addition that it may breede a daungerous opinion of the inequalitie eyther of the Sanne of God with the other persons or of the Gospell with other Scriptures is but supposed and a man may suppose the Moone to be made of gréene chéese That gesture at the name of Iesus hath hitherto continued in the Church many hundred yeares and yet neuer any was heard tell of that fell into eyther of these opinions by the meanes thereof One reason that moued Christians in the beginning the rather to bow at the Why Christians bowed at the name of Iesus name of Iesus than at any other name of God was bicause this name was most hated and most contemned of the wicked Iewes and other persecutors of such as professed the name of Iesus for the other names of God they had in reuerence but this they could not abide wherefore the Christians to signifie their fayth in Iesus and theyr obedience vnto him and to confute by open gesture the wicked opinion of the Iewes and other infidels vsed to doe bodily reuerence at all tymes when they heard the name of Iesus but especially when the Gospell was read which conteyned that glad tydings of saluation which is procured vnto man by Christ Iesus wherevpon also he is called Iesus that is a Sauior Neyther can it be agaynst christianitie to shewe bodily reuerence when he is named by whom not onely all the spirituall enimies of mankinde are subdued but also the faythfull be made partakers of the kingdome of heauen Wherefore as I binde no man of necessitie to this reuerence at the name of Iesus so do I not iudge any man that hauing knowledge vseth the same for I will not holster and defende superstitious ignorance It must néedes be malicious dealing to charge the common order and booke of publike prayer with particular faults of priuate men and places If you knowe where these abuses be and will complaine of them either to the Archbishop or Bishop I dare say they will reforme them There is better reason why one Pastor may haue two benefices than one Curate serue in two cures for ministring of the Sacraments and reading publike prayers dayly doth require more bodily attendance than the preaching of the worde A man may better in one day preach at two Churches than he can at them both minister the Sacraments and celebrate publike prayers That Pastor that hath two benefices and two good Curates at them both may with much more facilitie do his dutie both towardes his Churches particularly and the whole Church generally Of Cathedrall Churches c. Tract 22. Admonition As for Organs and curi ns singing though they be proper to popish dennes I meane to Cathedrall Churches yet some others also must haue them The Queenes Chappell and these Churches must be paterns and presidents to the people of all superstitions Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 206. Sect. 1. Here it pleaseth you to call Cathedrall Churches Popish dennes As hap is your wordes are no slaunder But this bragge I will make of Cathedrall Churches and such as be nowe in them I will offer vnto you a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England which I my selfe do know the worst whereof in learning shall encounter with al Papistes Puritanes Anabaptists and what other sectes soeuer in Englande for the defense of religion now professed eyther by worde or wryting Without arrogancie be it spoken I thinke there was neuer time wherein these Churches were better furnished with wise learned and godly men than they be at this day I speake not this boastingly but to Gods glorie the honour of the Prince the comfort of the godly and the shame of slaunderous Papistes and disdainfull Schismatikes Your slaunderous speech of the Queenes Maiesties Chappell which you also say to be a patterne and president to the people of all superstitions is rather seuerely to be punished than with words to be confuted T. C. Page 163. tovvardes the ende Pag 164. Sect. 1. As for the speach of the cathedrall Churches either it is nothing or else it is false For if he say that there is eyther in all those cathedrall Churches one or in euerie of those 12. churches one which is able to confute Papists c. What great thing sayth he which sayth no more of all these Churches than is to be founde in one poore house of the vniuersitie whose rentes are scarce 300. pounde by yeare Yea what hath he sayde of them which was not to be founde in them euen in Queene Maries tyme when there was yet some one almost in euery Church which for feare dissembling was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists Anabaptists Puritanes And if he meane that in those twelue houses the worst of the Prebendaries are able to defende the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do knowe the vntruth of it so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth yet howe so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath rightly termed it a meere bragge And yet I doubt not and a well assured that there be diuerse godly learned men which haue liuings in those places but for all that they ceasse not therefore to be dennes of loyterers and idle persons whilst there are nourished there some which serue for no profitable vse in the Church theyr offices being such as bring no commoditie but rather hurt of which number certame are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the colour of their Prebendes there absent themselues from them and that which they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheere with and therfore not without good cause called dennes Finally there being nothing there which might not be much better applyed and to the greater commoditie of the Church whilst they might be turned into Colledges where yong men might be brought vp in good learning and made fit for the serutce of the Church and common wealth the vniuersities being not able to receyue that number of schollers wherwith there neede may be supplyed And where M. D. sayth that that which is spoken of the Queenes maiesties chappell is worthie rather to be punished than confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in hir matesties
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
buyers and sellers out of the temple what office did Paule committe to Timothy when he sayde aduersùs Presbyterum c I woulde not haue a mynister to be a warriour or a farmer or a marchant or haue any such like osfice which consisteth in gayne or bodily labour only But why he may not haue suche an office as is profitable to encrease godlinesse and punish vngodlinesse I heare as yet no reason As for the office of an high commissioner it is Ecclesiasticall for they haue to do only in causes Ecclesiasticall T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And for Elye and Samuell they are extraordinarie examples whiche may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meeting in Melchisedech and afterwarde in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lorde toke from Moses beyng so wise and godly a man the Priesthoode and gaue it to Aaron and to his successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe his churche make it famous renoun ed in the world he gaue this order it appeareth that he would haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lorde did not tarie vntill Moses death but tooke the priesthoode away from Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elye or Samuell Io. Whitgifte It is not certayne whether Moses were euer Priest or no for where it is sayd It is doubtfull whether Moses were priest in the. 99. Bsalme Moses Aaron in sacerdotibus eius the Hebrewe worde is doubtfull and signifieth as well a Prince as a Priest therefore vpon this place it cannot necessarily be concluded that Moses was a Priest Moreouer at that time the chiefe rulers men of greatest authoritie were called Priestes but you neuer redde that Moses offered vp any sacrifices for sinne which was the proper office of the Priest Neyther can you tell vs where he was euer consecrated Priest In déede Harding against the Apologie doth alledge this example at Moses being as he sayeth both a ciuill Magistrate and a Priest to proue that the Pope may be both King and Priest But be it as you say that these two offices were distinguished in Moyses Aaron that the Priests office which consisteth in offering oblations sacrifices was taken from him yet did he kéepe still his former authoritie in gouerning the church and in prescribing to Aaron what he should do euen in matters perteyning to the worship of God so that these two offices I meane ciuill and Ecclesiasticall are not so distinct but that they may both aptly well méete ioyne togither Further more Ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices mette in one you know that howsoeuer the priesthood ciuill Magistracie were deuided in Moses and Aaron yet mette they both togither againe not onely in Elye Samuell but in Es ras Nehemias Mattathias and some other which examples proue that vpon occasion these offices may meete togither in one Person they quite ouerthrow your allegation of Moses Chap. 3. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And this may be also easily seene for that in a manner alwayes where there was any good stayde estate of the church these offices were ministred by seueral persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and miserable A d if this be a good reason to proue that ministers may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and minister the Sacraments For if the ministers may exercise ciuill offices bicause Elye Samuell beyng ministers did so the Princes and iudges may preach the worde and mynister the Sacraments bicause Elye and Samuell being Princes and iudges did so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to desend one confusion bringeth in an other Io. Whitgifte Here you confesse that which hetherto in your whole booke you haue denied and T. C. confesseth the groūd of all these cōtrouersies that which is in deede the whole grounde of the chiefe matters in controuersie that is that the gouernment of the Churche may be diuerse according to the diuersitie of the time and state of the same as in the time of persecution it may be otherwise gouerned than in time of peace otherwise when the state is established than when it is ruynous and in decaye for say you In a manner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the church these offices were ministred by seuerall persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruynous Thus haue you graunted of your owne accorde that which hitherto you haue so stifly and stoutly denied such is the might force of the truth And yet the church was in good state all Sainuels time and the moste parte of Elyes also for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie I brought in those examples to proue that these offices haue mette togither and The state of y e controuerūe altered by the Replier therefore be not so diuers as you would make them I do not vse them to this ende that I would haue a Priest to be a King you know the state of our question is onely whether Bishops may exercise those ciuill functions of Iusticeship of Peace and such like which the Prince committeth vnto them or no and not whether they may sitte in the Princes throne and take hir Scepter out of hir hande whether she will or no as the Pope doth And therfore whereas you saythat by these exāples of Elye and Samuell I may as well conclude that Princes may preach the worde and minister the sacraments as Priests and ministers execute cruill offices I thinke you do not consider that these ciuill offices be but accidents to the priesthode therefore may well be remoued as they were from Samuell when Saule was chosen King for Samuell kepte his Priesthoode though he lost his ciuill authoritie but the Priesthoode is not so to the cyuill magistrate except he will be ordinarily and lawfully admitted therevnto I thuike that there is no degree of dignitie that maketh a man vnmeete for the ministerie if he be therevnto lawfully called and haue other giftes méete for the same wherefore as it followeth not that a minister in the respect that he is a minister ought to haue a ciuill office but that he may haue one if he be by the ciuill Magistrate therevnto appoynted so it doth not follow that a ciuill Magistrate ought to be a minister of the woorde but that he may be if he be méete and therevnto ordinarily and lawfully called and admitted The Prieste may not take vpon him the office of the ciuill Magistrate vnlesse he be called lawfully vnto it nor the ciuill Magistrate may not take vpon him the office of a Priest vnlesse he be ordinarily therevnto admitted And this is no confusion at all Chap. 3. the. 10. Diuision
foorth we mind by Gods grace to make it playner and shoulde do it better if it were as lawfull for vs as for our aduersaries to publish our mindes in print then should appeare what slender stuffe they bring that are so impudent by open writing to defend it And if it might please hir Maiestie by the aduise of you righte Honorable in this high Court of Parliament to heare vs by writing or otherwise to defend ourselues then such is the equitie of our cause that we would trust to find fauoure in hir Maiesties sight then those patched Pamphlets made by sodeine vpstarts and new conuerts should appeare in their colours and truth haue the victorie and God the glory if this cannot be obteyned we will by Gods grace addresse ourselues to defende his truthe by suffering and willingly lay our heads to the blocke And this shall be our peace to haue quiet consciences with our God whome we will abide for with all patience vntill he make our full deliuerance Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 243. And I will not spare my laboure from time to time to vtter my mind and conscience in these matters protesting that if by learning you can perswade me I will say agayne with Augustine Errare possum baereticus esse nolo All the rest of your stoute and suspitious braggs of your vndecent and vnseemely words I let passe and leaue them to be considered as notes of your spirit and modestie The Queenes Maiestie may assure hir selfe that she hath of learned men a number sufficient able by learning to mainteine both hir authoritie and lawes which hir Maiestie hath hitherto vsed and made for the further e of the Gospell and mainteyning of good order and peace in the Church The Lord of his infinite goodnesse long preserue hir and giue vs thankfull hearts to God for hir T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 1. Unto the next section I haue answered in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise which declareth to whome it doth appert ine to make ceremonies and orders of the Church And vnto the section contayned in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of oynions auswereth of garlike For the Authours of the Admonition desiring that it might be as lawfull for them to published by print their minds or to be heard dispute or that their mind put in writing might be openly debated M. Doctor answereth with Augustines sentence which he hath made the fote of his song nothing to the purpose of that which they says the performance of which promise we will notwithstanding wait for Io. Whitgifte Why what haue they sayd there worth the answering that I haue not directly answered vnto they boast of their writing and of their disputing And I tell them that I will not spare my laboure from time to time to vtter my mind and consciēce in these matters also What other answer would you haue me to make vnto them The saying of S. Augustine commeth in due place you call it the foote of my song and I am very well content you should so do for I intend to sing that song so long as I liue neither can any mislike it but such as either be or intende to be herelikes I purpose God willing to performe all the promises that I haue made and when I shrinke from any of them let me heare of it Admonition For the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine vsing a godly interpretation in a poynte Doctrine The right gouernment of the Churche cannot be separated from the doctrine 1. Tim. 3. 2. or two which are eyther too sparely or else too darkely set downe we were and are ready according to duetie to subscribe vnto them We would to God that as they hold the substance togither with vs and we with them so they would not denie the effect and vertue thereof then shoulde not our words and works be deuorced but Christ should be suffered to reigne a true ministerie according to the word instituted discipline exercised Sacraments purely and sincerely ministred thys is that we striue for and about which we haue suffered k 1. Pet. 3. 17 not as euill doers but for resisting poperie and refusing to be stoong with the tayle of Antichristian infection ready l 2. Pet. 3. 15. to render a reason of our fayth to the stopping of all our enimies mouthes We therefore for the Churche of Gods sake whiche ought to be most deare vnto you beseech you for our soueraignes sake vpon whome we pray that all Gods blessing may be poured abundantly we pray you to consider of these abuses to reforme Gods Church according to your duties and callings that as with one mouth we confesse one Christe so with one consent this reigne of Antichriste may be turned out headlong from amongst vs and Christ our Lord may reygne by hys word ouer vs. So your seates shal be established and setled in great assurance you shall not neede to feare your enimies for God wyll turne away his threatned plagues from vs which he in mercy do for his Christes sake Amen Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 245. 246. It is very well that you so like of the articles but yet it pleaseth Of subscribing to the Articles you not to subscribe vnto them you say bycause of a point or two which are eyther too sparely or else too darkly set downe but indeede your meaning is to subscribe to nothing which by authoritie you are required to do and that argueth an arrogant mind and a disposition that loueth alway to be singular You note in the margente that the right gouernmēt of the Church The argumēt of the aduersary retorted agaynst himselfe can neuer be separated from the doctrine but by your owne confessiō we haue the doctrine Ergo of necessitie we also haue the righte gouernment Here in few words you haue cast downe whatsoeuer you seemed before to build so do commonly vnskilfull builders I would to God that for so much as contrary to your former assertion you now confesse that we haue the veritie of doctrine you could be content to say downe great heart and submit your selues to the Queenes Maiestie and hir lawes according to your dutie then no doubt Christ should without resistance reigne in this Church and the frutes of the Gospell would much more appeare You bragge much of your suffering you are little beholding to Persecution pretended wher none is your neighbours when you are thus constreyned to prayse your selues But I pray you whether dothe he persecute that modestly and soberly defendeth the truthe or he that vnlawfully reuengeth hymselfe with rayling and backbi ing you loue very well to haue the worlde knowe howe greatly you be persecuted and therefore if one of you here in Cambridge be punished but twenty pence for his open contempte of statutes to the whiche he is sworne in post hast it is carried into all quarters and especially to London
is nor the Iuniper cotesare not comparable with it Io. Whitgifte Nay they can not meane it of me nor of suche as I am for I haue not to doe with the politike affayres of this lande neyther am I eyther of Court or Parliament But I thinke their words following doe clearely seclude me and all other of my degrée for thus they adde immediatly But shutte God out of your assemblies and 〈◊〉 as hitherto in this last Parliament you haue done nothing therin as you ought no though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 beene solicited but haue suffered them that were your solicitours to be molested You shall 〈◊〉 both that you ought to haue sought the kingdome of God first and also you shall finde if 〈◊〉 consider not your owne wayes in your hearts howe you thinke it a tyme to buylde seeled houses to deuise lawes for the preseruation and prosperitie of your common wealth and neglect Gods Churche leaue that wast c. These wordes of theirs shutteth me out from the number of their Macheuils Well it is a poynte that woulde be considered That whiche I speake in the. 88. page I am ready to giue accounte of when I am thervnto by due authoritie called Neyther am I afrayde in time and place to speake that whiche I thinke In the rest of this Replie you doe but vtter your impatiencie and vntemperatenesse of your spéeche and therfore I will dismisse you as Dauid dyd Shemei A vievve of the seconde Admonition The seconde parte consisteth onely of rayling wordes and slaunderous Slaunder 〈◊〉 the Churche of Englande accusations first agaynst this whole Churche of Englande for they say that we are scarse come to the outwarde face of a Churche rightly reformed and that although some truthe be taught by some preachers yet no Preacher maye without great daunger of the lawes vtter all truthe comprised in the worde of God c. And a little after they adde and saye that the truthe in a maner doth but peepe out behinde the screene which speeches as they be very vntrue for who knoweth not that the Gospell is wholly publikely and freely preached in this Church of Englande so they be slaunderous neyther can the Papists speake any worse In this parte also to proue that this is no true saying in matters of policie and gouernment it is not repugnant to the word of God and therfore it may be vsed is alleaged this saying of Christ. Mat. 12. He that is not vvith me is agaynst me But they haue forgotten the wordes of Christ Mat. 9. Qui non est aduersus nos pro nobis est He that is not agaynst vs is vvith vs. Wherevpon we maye muche better conclude that that which is not repugnant to the Scripture is consonant to the Scripture than they can doe the contrarie of the former place Notwithstanding in both these places as I think Christ speaketh rather of men and persons than of things them selues In the same parte their speeche of the Queenes supremacie is very Supremacie of the Quene secretly denied suspicious and it would be demaunded of them what they thinke in deede of hir Maiesties anthoritie in ecclesiasticall matters for in this poyut they haue hitherto dealt very subtilly and closely notwithstanding their meaning may easily be perceyued of suche as diligently consider their bookes Likewyse in this parte they note certayne contrarietics in thys Churche as betwixte the Communion booke and Iniunctions touching wafers the Communion booke and aduertisementes concerning Churche vestures the Canons and the Pontificall in not ordering of ministers sine titulo and suche like matters of no importance whiche iustifie rather this Churche than otherwyse for surely if they had had weightier matters they woulde no doubte haue alleaged them But in these same matters they are muche deceyued for as I suppose in matters of ornaments of the Churche and of the ministers thereof the Queenes Maiestie togither with the Archbishop or the Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall haue authoritie by Acte of Parliament to alter and appoynt suche rites and ceremonies as shall from tyme to tyme be thoughte to them moste conuenient To be shorte in that poynt they saye that in thinges of order one Church may many times differ from another without offence following the generall rules of Scripture for order as in appoynting time and place for prayers c. Which is a very true saying and flat contrarie to all that is sayde eyther Contrarietie in these men in the first Admonition or in this seconde for if suche things may be appoynted in the Churche not beeing expressed in the word of God but depending vpon this generall rule Let all things be done decently and in order 1 Corinth 14. then surely the Magistrate hathe authoritie in suche matters to appoynt what shall be thought vnto them most conuenient so that it be not repugnant to the worde of God except you will make this the question whether in such matters we ought to be directed by the Magistrates and gouernours of the Church or by euery priuate Pastor in his seuerall charge Io. Whitgifte All this is let slippe without answere The vievve of the seconde Admonition The thirde parte of this booke condemneth the degrees of Doctors Degrees in the Uniuersities cōdemned Bachelers of Diuinitie and Masters of Arte in the Uniuersities and slaunderously vntruely and opprobriously speaketh of the Uniuersities and suche as be in them presumptudusty prescribing a maner of reformation for the same when as I thinke verily they knowe not what Uniuersities meane But heere we maye note that they seeke to ouerthrowe all learning and degrees of learning The same parte also very slaunderonsly and vnchristianly rayleth on some Bishops by name and the rest of the Cleargie charging them most vntruely with sundrie things but bicause it is done by way of Libelling a Diuelishe kinde of reuenge therfore I trust godly and wyse men will esteeme of it accordingly Besides slaunderous reportes and opprobrious words there is nothing in thys parte worthy the answering T. C. Pag. 176. Sect. 2. After he accuseth the Admonition as if it condemned scholes and Uniuersities with all maner degrees when it dothe but inueigh agaynst degrees giuen of custome rather than of right rather by money than by merite of learning and when titles of Doctorship be giuen to those which haue not the office of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not doe the office if they had it and when men doe seeke vayneglory in them and suche lyke Io. Whitgifte Reade and marke their wordes page 16. and. 17. and the conclusion they vse after they haue in moste bitter maner inueighed agaynst suche degrées whiche is this These vayne names become suche vayne men but the Churche of God they become not and are forbidden by our Sauiour c. Their owne wordes be a sufficient declaration of their meaning and so is yours vttered before a playne proofe of your consenting vnto Pag. 173. sec. 1. them and
Cornelius or Cyprian within their Prouinces may most aptly also be vnderstoode of euery Byshop within his Diocesse and therefore my L. of Sarum expounding this place speaketh of them both vnder these names of Prouince and Diocesse and so doth M. Nowell vnder the name of chiefe Prelate and Prouince and M. Foxe also vnder the worde Diocesse beyng plaine and euident that they allow of the office That learned man and godly Martyr M. Philpot as it is recorded in the booke of M. Philpot exam 5. Actes and Monumentes in his fifte examination answering this place of Cyprian obiected vnto him by D. Sauerson answereth most plainely in these wordes And nowe for the vnderstanding of that place you doe misconstrue it to take the high Priest onely for the Byshop of Rome and otherwyse than it was in his tyme. For there were by Nicene Councell foure Patriarches appoynted the Patriarche of Ierusalem the Patriarche of Constantinople the Patriarche of Alexandria and the Patriarche of Rome of which foure the Patriarche of Rome was placed lowest in the Councell and so continued many yeares for the time of seuen or eight generall Councels as I am able to shewe Therefore S. Cyprian writing to Cornelius Patriarch of Rome whome he calleth fellowe Byshop findeth hymselfe offended that certaine heretikes being iustly excommunicated by him as the Nouatian were did flie from his Diocesse which was their chiefe Byshop refusing to be obedient vnto him to be reformed to the Bishop of Rome to the Patriarch of Constantinople and there were receiued in communion of congregation in derogation of good order discipline in the Churche to the mainteining of heresies and schismes And that heresies did spring vp schismes dayly arise hereof that obedience was not giuē to the Priest of God nor once considered him to be in the Church for the time the Priest and for the time the iudge in Christes steade as in decree of Nicene Councell was appointed not meaning ☞ the Bishop of Rome only but euery Patriarch in his precinct who had euery one of them a colledge or a Cathedrall Church of learned priests in hearing of whom by a conuocation of all his fellow Byshops with the consente of the people all heresies were determined by the word of God this is the meaning of S. Cyprian hetherto M. Philpot. Thus the reader may easily perceiue how you haue dalied about this place of Cyprian and that this interpretation is not mine alone Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 71. Sect. 1. And therfore Hierome writing vpon the first to Titus sayth that Hierome in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest was all one But after that there began to rise factions in Religion and some saide they helde of Apollo some of Paule some of Cephas and some of Christe it was decreed that one should be chosen to beare rule ouer the rest to whō the chiefe care of the Church should apperteine and by whom sectes and schismes should be cut of Here a man may reason thus The distinction of degrees began in the Church when men began to say I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo c. But this was in the Apostles time the. 1. Cor. 1. Therefore these distinctions of degrees beganin the Apostles time The same Hierom in his Epistle ad Euagrium teacheth that the cause why one was chosen amongst the Bishops to rule ouer the rest was in schismatis remedium ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christi ecclesiam rumperet to meete vvyth Schismes leaste euery one according to his ovvne fansie should teare in peeces the Church of Christe and saith further that in Alexandria from S. Marke vnto Heracla and Dionisius Byshops the Ministers vsed to electe one among themselues vvhom they placing in a higher degree called a Byshop euen as an armie shoulde choose their Captaine or Deacons shoulde choose one of themselues vvhom they knevv to be painefull and call him an Archdeacon Haec Hieronymus In all these places Hierome doth not maynteine the authoritie of one man ouer the whole Church but thinketh it necessarie that in euery Prouince there be one to be chiefe ouer the reste for vnitie sake and for rooting out of contentiōs sects And therfore contra Luciferianos he sayth that vnlesse this superioritie were there would be as many schismes in the Church as there be priests T C. Pag. 79. Sect. 1. 2. The Hebrues do deriue the name of time of a verbe which signifieth to corrupt bycause in deede it doth corrupt all as the times are so are mē which liue in them that euē very good men cary the note of y e infection of the times wherin they liue the streame of the corruption therof being so vehement forcible doth not only driue before it light things but it eateth also weareth y e very hard stonie rockes therfore there is not to be looked for (*) This is your vsuall practise whē you cannot answere to cauill at the credite of the author such sinceritie at Hieromes hand Which we found in S. Cyprian considering y t he liued some ages after Cyprian what time Satan had a great deale more darkened y e cleere light of the Sunne of the Gospell than it was in S. Cyprians time For as those y t came neerest vnto the Apostles times bicause they were nearest the light dyd sce best so those that were further of from these lightes had vntill y e time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke cloudy consequently did see more diuiely which is diligently be obserued of y e reader both the better to vnderstand y e state of this question and all other controuersies which lye betwene vs and the Papistes And althoughe Hierome besides his other faultes myghte haue also in this matter spoken more soundly yet we shall easily perceiue y t he is a great deale further from either the title or office of an Archbishop or else from y e authoritie that a Bishop hath with vs than he is from the simplicitie of the ministerio which ought to be and is commended vnto vs by the word of God Io. Whitgifte This is but a poore refuge when you cannot answere to discredite the author it is euident that Hierome saythe nothing touching this matter but that which is both consonant to the scriptures confirmed by the practise of the Church long before his time as appeareth by that which is saide before And I pray you what difference is there betwixte that which Hierome speaketh in this place and that which Cyprian hath s id before For Cyp ian said That heresies schismes haue sprong do spring of this bicause the priest of God is not obeyed c. And bicause the Bishop which is one is set o er the church is through the proude presumption of some contemned c.