the shew of wordes UUherefore it was néedfull sith we séeke herein to finde out Christes will that first we agreed what way the right sense of the scripture may be knowne UUhich séeing you would haue me to fetch from the Pope and I haue no lust to go vnto Rome nor thinke it lodgeth in the Vatican so that by this way no agréement can be made or ende of controuersie hoped for I will take a shorter and a surer way confessed by vs both to be a good way whereby the right sense of the scripture may be found and so the will of Christ be knowne Hart. UUhat way may that be Rainoldes To learne of Christ him selfe the meaning of his word and let his spirit teach it that is to expound the scripture by the scripture A golden rule to know and try the truth from errour prescribed by the Lord and practised by his seruants for the building of his church from age to age through all posteritie For the holie Ghost exhorting the Iewes to compare the darker light of the Prophetes with the cléerer of the Apostles that the day-brigtnesse of the Sonne of righteousnes may shine in their hartes saith that no prophecy of Scripture is of a mans owne interpretation because in the prophecie that is the scripture of the Prophetes they spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost not as the will of man did fansie UUhich reason sith it implieth as the Prophetes so the Apostles and it is true in them all the holie men of God spake as they were moued by the holie Ghost it followeth that all the scripture ought to be expounded by God because it is inspired of God as natures light hath taught that he who made the law should interpret the law This rule commended to vs by the prescript of God and as it were sanctified by the Leuites practise in the olde Testament and the Apostles in the new the godlie auncient Pastors and Doctors of the church haue followed in their preaching their writing their deciding of controuersies in Councels UUherefore if you desire in déede the churches exposition and would so faine finde it you must go this way this is the churches way that is the churches sense to which this way dooth bring you For S. Austin whose doctrine your selfe doo acknowledge to be grounded on the lawes the maners the iudgementes of all the catholike church whom you call a witnesse of the sincere truth and catholike religion such a witnesse as no exception can be made against who assureth you as you say not onely of his owne but also of the common the constant faith and confession of the ancient Fathers and the Apostolike church this S. Austin hath written foure bookes of Christian doctrine wherein he purposely entreateth how men should vnderstand the Scripture and expound it The summe of all his treatise doth aime at this marke which I haue pointed too that the meaning of the Scripture must be learned out of the Scripture by the consideration of thinges and wordes in it that the ende whereto the matter whereof it is all writen be marked in generall and all be vnderstood according to that end and matter that al be read ouer ouer those things chiefly noted which are set downe plainly both precepts of life and rules of beliefe because that all things which concerne beliefe and life are plainly written in it that obscure darke speeches be lightned and opened by the plaine and manifest that to remoue the doubt of vncertaine sentences the cleere and certaine be followed that recourse be had vnto the Greeke and Hebrue copies to cleare out of the fountaines if the translation be muddie that doubtfull places bee expounded by the rule of faith which we are taught out of the plainer places of the scripture that all the circumstances of the text bee weighed what goeth before what commeth after the maner how the cause why the men to whom the time when euery thing is saide to be short that still wee seeke to know the will and meaning of the Authour by whom the holie Ghost hath spoken if we finde it not yet giue such a sense as agreeth with the right faith approued by some other place of scripture if a sense be giuen the vncertaintie wherof cannot bee discussed by certaine and sure testimonies of scripture it might be proued by reason but this custome is dangerous the safer way far is to walke by the scripture the which being shadowed with darke and borowed words when we mind to search let either that come out of it which hath no doubt and controuersie or if it haue doubt let it be determined by the same scripture through witnesses to be found vsed thence wheresoeuer that so to conclude all places of the scriptures be expounded by the scriptures the which are called Canonical as being the Canon that is to say the rule of godlines and faith Thus you sée the way the way of wisedome and knowledge which Christ hath prescribed the church hath receiued S. Austin hath declared both by his preceptes and his practise both in this treatise and in others agréeably to the iudgement of the auncient Fathers Which way sith it is lyked both by vs and you though not so much followed of you as of vs I wish that the woorthinesse thereof might perswade you to practise it your selfe but it must enforce you at least to allow it Hart. I graunt it neither can nor ought to be denyed that euery one of those things and specially if they be ioined all togither doo helpe very much to vnderstand the scriptures rightly But yet they are not so sure and certaine meanes as some other are which we preferre before them Neither do they helpe alwaies nay sometimes they do hurt rather and deceiue greatlie such as expound the Scripture after them This is not onelye said but also proued at large out of the Doctors and Fathers by that worthie man of great wit and iudgement our countriman M. Stapleton Doctor of Diuinitie the Kinges Professor of controuersies in the vniuersitie of Doway Of whose most wholesome worke entitled A methodicall demonstration of doctrinall principles of the faith one booke is wholly spent to shew the meanes way and order how to make authenticall interpretation of the Scriptures In the which hee layeth this for a ground that the Scripture cannot be rightly vnderstood but by the rule of faith Whereupon he condemneth the Protestantes opinion that the sense of Scriptures must be fetched out of the Scriptures Which errour of yours to ouerthrow the more fully he deliuereth foure meanes of expounding the Scriptures the first very certaine and sure the rule of faith the next no lesse certaine the practise of the church the third at least probable the consent of the Fathers the last most
that which was common to all the Apostles by the meaning of Christ you chalenge as proper vnto Peter onely For as the confession of Peter touching Christ shewed their common faith by the mouth of one so the answere of Christ directed vnto one conteined that blessing that should be common to them all And this is declared by the holy scripture which to the Ephesians mēbers of the church saith that they are built vpō the foundatiō of the Apostles Prophets Not of Peter onely but of the Apostles who lay the same foundation all that Peter did and thereupon are called all of them foundations And the church relying vpon their doctrine that is the Christian faith the onely and sure foundatiō of the church as the truth hath forced your owne mouthes to witnesse may bee iustly saide to be built on them euen as well on all of them as on Peter Wherfore by the proportion that you grate vpon of a foundation to a house and a head to a bodie as Christ is head onely so is he the onely foundation of the Church as the name of foundation is giuen to the Apostles so the twelue foundations doth proue them twelue heads You must séeke therefore some other foundation of Peters headship ouer them For neither the name of stone that Christ gaue him nor the wordes of building his church vpon that stone proue that he promised him to make him head of all the Apostles Hart. Not in your iudgement but in mine they doo And so dooth the other part of the promise also which Christ made vnto him To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heuen For by the name of keyes is signified the fulnes of ecclesiasticall power But to giue the fulnes of ecclesiasticall power is to make him head Therefore Christ did promise to make him head of the church Rainoldes These keyes will not open more in the house then did the foundation lay in the building For if you meane by fulnes of ecclesiasticall power the lawfull power of the Apostleship then the which no greater was euer giuen to anie ministers of the church Christ gaue it both to Peter and to euerie Apostle If you meane such power as the Pope claimeth by fulnes of power a soueraine power not onely spirituall but also temporall Christ gaue it neither to Peter nor to anie Apostle So that in the former sense al were heads in the latter none and thus your headship proued by neither But what soeuer you meane by fulnes of power this is cleere and certaine that our Sauiour promised no more power to Peter then he meant and performed to all the Apostles And therefore what soeuer he promised to him he promised in him to them For as amongst them when they were all asked Whom say ye that I am Peter answered alone Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God so Christ said to him alone I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen as though he had alone receaued power to bind and loose whereas he made that answere one in stead of them all and receiued this power one togither with them all Wherefore sith no more was promised then giuen and equall power was giuen to all the Apostles this promise proueth not your headship You must bring vs foorth some better euidence or else your title will be naught Hart. The euidence is good For it saith in plaine and expresse termes that Christ would giue the keyes to Peter Then the which what could be more manifestly spoken Rainoldes In shew to the simple Chiefely when they sée the matter set forth as that is at Rome where Christ is painted out not as promising Peter that he would giue him keyes but as giuing them to him at that present and giuing them to him alone not to all the Apostles with the wordes of Christ paraphrased feately thereto by some poet Be thou the Prince of pastors to thee alone is giuen The power to shut the dore of heauen and eke to set it open Pastorum princeps esto tibi ius datur vni Claudere celestes reserare fores Hart. Nay the very words as they lie in scripture are plainer in shew for vs then for you which also may be noted in other pointes of controuersie betwéene you and vs. As about the reall presence this is my bodie For Christ did not say this is a signe of my bodie And againe the bread that I will giue is my flesh He said not it is but the signe of my flesh Rainoldes Neither do we say that Christ did so meane in this of flesh and bread For we teach that the true bread the bread of God which came downe from heauen and giueth life vnto the world is Christ euen the flesh the very flesh of Christ that is Christ incarnate The greater wrong they do vs who lay to our charge that we expound it not of the thing but of a signe themselues indéede guiltie thereof expounding it of a sacrament of Christ where it is meant of Christ him selfe the word that was made flesh But what if in the other place and sundry mo the wordes of the scripture bee plainer in shew for you then for vs It is not the shew but the sense of the wordes that doth import the truth and must decide controuersies For wordes were ordained to open the meaning and minde of him that speaketh them The meaning of the word of God is alwaies true because God who speaketh it is true and cannot lie The shew of it is false sometimes and deceitfull as men are whose iudgement this shew dependeth of and that may séeme to them to be meant by it which is not meant by God Wherfore it is not the shew but the sense the substance not the semblance of the wordes of scriptures that you must proue doth make for you in points of controuersie if you will proue ought Hart. Why do you graunt then that the wordes of scripture make more for vs in shew though not in substance then they doo for you It were not good for you that this should be knowne Rainoldes What Not that the wordes of scripture sometimes make more for you then vs in shewe though not in substance Yes truely M. Hart and for the Anabaptistes too that Christians had all things common And for Pope Clemens too that wiues must be common because in all things wiues are implyed also And I am so farre from being afraid that this should be knowne that euen in the very example which you mētion as making for you most I grant that the words of Christ this is my body are plainer in shew though not for your monster of transubstantiation yet for your reall presence then for our sacramentall But so that I graunt the same in like maner of other sacramentall and
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
Grecians idols your pilgrimage to Saintes images where they are most famous as our Ladie of Lauretto like Diana of Ephesus with infinit such other fansies doo resemble liuely the Heathnish rites of Paganisme and grew by likelyhood from the Heathens But I because the temple of Salomon had images although not of men the Leuites had shauing although not of crownes the tabernacle had lightes although not in the day time much lesse at the beginning of Februarie more then other times did speake of your Popish rites herein as Iewish to make the best of them And for all the difference that you find betwixt them of waxe in yours and oyle in theirs and their perfume and your frankincense though frankincense was mingled with their perfume also and made an incense too without it but granting this difference betwixt them to the vttermost yet are yours Iewish in the kinde thereof because they are shadowes such as were the Iewish And it is likely that they who deuised them did fetch them out of Moses as they who defend them doo ground them vpon Moses For the fairest colour that eyther Bishop Durand or others set vpon them is that God ordeined them in Moses law As Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholike Church doth holde that Bishops ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sonnes and againe that temples and altars and chalices ought to be anointed because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle and arke and table with the vessels Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth that the sacrament of vnction or anointing doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing that is with doing as the Iewes did in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction Rainoldes Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you that your holy vnction is made of oyle and balme where theirs was made of oyle myrrhe with other spices He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation that is the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars No more then if you should sacrifice a dogge and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did because they did sacrifice not dogges but shéepe oxen As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctiō from theirs that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did first it wrought as much in their altars as in yours for any thing that I know Secondly it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost which he saith it doth in yours Thirdly were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them as after a sort it hath both in respect of him who ordered theirs and the cause why yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding For I trust you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice a lambe in burnt offering though you did it to signifie not Christ that was to come as the Iewes did but that Christ is come and hath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie At the least S. Peter did constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize as you terme it when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in choise of meates Yet neither he nor they allowed it in that meaning which it was giuen to the Iewes in For it was giuen them to betoken that holines and traine them vp vnto it which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull And Peter knew that Christ had doon this in truth and taken away that figure yea the whole yoke of the law of Moses which point he taught the Gentiles also Wherefore although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes as Pope Innocentius saith to salue that blister yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them Hart. S. Peter did not erre in faith but in behauiour when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine as Tertullian saith Neither doth S. Austin thinke otherwise of it Rainoldes I graunt For he offended not in the truth of the gospel but in walking according to it that hauing liued before not as the Iewes but Gentile-like yet then hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes and dissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen For if S. Peter was to be condemned as causing them to Iudaize whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite what may your Church be thought of which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence and submission when S. Paul reproued him But Pope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it Wherefore the Pope or rather the Popes and Papists all who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both the rest of your Iewish rites and namely that of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ S. Peter did but as the false Apostles who troubled the Galatians and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it Hart. Your wordes should haue some coolour of truth against the Church if we taught that men ought to be circumcised as did the false Apostles Rainoldes Why Shall no heretikes be counted false teachers in the Church of Christ vnlesse they teach in al point◠as did the false Prophets Hart. But as I haue shewed out of the Councell of Trent the ceremonies which we vse in the sacrifice of the Masse as namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges came all not from the false but from the true Apostles And if there be any which they ordeined not that might be ordeined by our holy mother the Church As it was that some thinges should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice some thinges with a lowder For such is the nature of men that it can not bee lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine thinges without outward helpes Which reason added by the Councel doth warrant all our rites both of the Churches ordinance and the Apostolike tradition against your cauils and surmises
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
so well liked of the ancient Doctors that Austin saith that all things concerning faith and maners are contained in those I say not which are but which are plaine in scripture Chrysostome auoucheth in the like maner that euery thing is cleere and euident by the scriptures and whatsoeuer things are necessarie they are manifest Tertullian pronounceth that himselfe honoureth the fulnes of the scriptures and denounceth a woe to Hermogenes the heretike if he take ought from those things which are writen or adde to them Ierom in the controuersie which he had with Heluidius doth turne the reason in and out we beleeue it because we reade it we beleeue it not because we reade it not Cyrill obserueth that such of the things doon by Christ are writen as the writers thought to be sufficient for maners and doctrine Basil affirmeth that it is a manifest reuolting from the faith either to disallow any thing that is writen or to bring in any thing that is not writen to be short all the Fathers vnlesse it were when some humaine infirmity ouertooke them agrée with one minde and say with one voice that all things which God hath willed vs to beléeue and doo are comprehended in the scriptures For as touching that some of them sometimes as Basil and Epiphanius assaying all sortes of helpes against heretikes will haue certaine things to be contained in traditions whereto by the iudgement of scripture it selfe there must no lesse credit be geuen then to scripture I take not vpon me to controll them but let the Church iudge whether they considered with aduise inough those sayings of S. Paul by which they were induced perhaps to this opinion at least they séeke to prooue it For Epiphanius groundeth vpon these wordes of his to the Corinthians as I deliuered to you and I haue deliuered so in the Churches and if ye keepe it except ye haue beleeued in vaine And Basil gathereth it to be Apostolike doctrine that we must hold fast vnwriten traditions by his wordes to the Thessalonians hold the traditions which ye haue been taught either by word or by our epistle Now if S. Paul meant in both these places by deliuered and traditions his doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in scripture too then must it be granted that they were deceiued who thought that vnwriten traditions were approoued by S. Pauls traditions But the former point is true that he meant so Therefore the later also is true which foloweth of it For he dooth expound it himselfe to the Corinthians considering that he writeth the summe of those things which he had deliuered and what he deliuered that he receiued he saith of the Lord and that which he receiued of the Lord is writen and in plaine termes he witnesseth himselfe to haue deliuered that vnto them which he had receiued according to the scriptures to weet that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that hee rose the third day according to the scriptures As for the Thessalonians what the things were which he deliuered vnto them by word it is shewed in the actes of the Apostles where we reade that Paul being come to Thessalonica taught the Iewes out of the scriptures that it behooued Christ to suffer and to rise again from the dead and that this Iesus whom said he I preach to you is the Christ. In which words it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence from whence out of the scriptures what that it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe and that Iesus is the Christ. The tradition therefore which Paul dooth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the tradition of the gospell as Ambrose calleth it very wel Which the reason also doth proue that Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather God hath raysed you to saluation by our gospell therefore stand ye fast and hold the traditions which ye haue been taught either by word or by our epistle as if he should say see therefore that ye stand stedfast in the gospell which I as well by word of mouth as by writing haue deliuered to you Thus S. Pauls traditions are the gospel deliuered And the gospel I hope is writen Therfore S. Pauls traditions are writen But the saluation of the Thessalonians was contained in the traditions which S. Paul had taught them by word by epistle The scripture then informeth the Church of so much as is necessary to saluation Wherfore auant heretikes out of the schoole of Christ ye Valentinians Marcionites and Gnostikes who as Irenaeus reporteth did deny that the truth may be learned out of the holy scriptures by them who know not tradition Auant Iewes by whom the Cabala of the Rabbins auant Montanists by whom the new Comforter auant Anabaptists by whom reuelations auant ye Trent-councell-fathers and ye Papist◠by whom traditions beside scripture are falsly reputed to be necessarie to saluation Our saluation is Christ the way to saluation faith the guide of the way scripture whereof the light and lanterne directeth our steps the food nourisheth our soules the preseruatiue keepeth vs from diseases the sword killeth our enimies the plaister healeth our woundes in a word the safe conduit doth bring vs vnto eternall life The second Conclusion which I am next to treate of doth vndertake to shew that the militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine In maners against the Puritans who chalenging to them selues a singular kinde of holinesse denyed repentance to such as had fallen In doctrine against the Papists who for a defense and shield of their errours hold forth this bugge to fright vs out of our wits The Church can not erre Here that the truth may be the better opened the name of Church must be distinguished For as Thrasylaus a frantike man amongst the Greekes whensoeuer he saw any ships ariue into the hauen at Athens thought them all his owne and tooke an inuentory of their wares and met them with great ioy after the like maner certaine frantike Romanists wheresoeuer they see the name of the Church in the holy scripture they take it to be theirs and booke the treasures of it and boast thereof as of their owne crying the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it But to remoue these frantike men out of the hauen and deliuer the marchants ech their owne ships set the Church it selfe in possession of the Church the name of the Church in Gréeke the natiue language of the new testament cometh from a verbe which signifyeth to call out thereby to note a company called out as you would say So that the Church of Christ be tokeneth a company called out from amongst the multitude of other men to life euerlasting through faith in Christ Iesus But they who are
trust in him stirre vp our loue towardes him and pray vnto him hartily increase our faith forgeue our sinnes in a word that we may runne the whole race of our life with greater stedfastnes and constancie Then sith these things are thus it is to be concluded that the godly are lead by the holy Ghost into all trueth and holinesse euen to saluation but to this saluation they are so lead that they are not frée from all spot and wrincle either of maners or of doctrine Touching which point on the one side in respect of maners Sebastian Castellio hath erred very shamefully holding this hereticall opinion amongst others that the regenerate are able to performe the law of God perfitly which thing it is blasphemous to affirme of any but of Christ onely On the other side in respect of doctrine Hosius the Cardinall hath ouershot him selfe as fowly saying that euerie one of the elect may erre as by S. Cyprians example he sheweth but that all the faithfull gathered together in one cannot erre which is a fansy of a man that would build castles in the ayre It is a matter therefore most sure and out of dout that the elect and chosen may erre as in maners so in doctrine too though in such sort that they shall not die but liue notwithstanding and be cured of their errors Marry that they who are not chosen but onely called may erre euen to death as well in doctrine as in maners in maners it appeereth by the example of Iudas who was brought through couetousnes to betray Christ in doctrine we may sée by those monstrous heretikes of whom S. Iohn saith they went out from vs but they were not of vs. Wherefore sith both the chosen and the called may erre the one to their triall the other to their destruction and the church militant consisteth of none but of the called and the chosen that which I proposed is prooued sufficiently that the militant church may erre not onely in maners but in doctrine also If any man for proofe thereof require examples hée hath the churches of Galatia of Corinth of Pergamus of Thyatira of Sardis and of Laâ—dicea All the which to omit examples of our owne time the scripture witnesseth to haue erred some of them in maners some in doctrine some in both Yea the very church of Ephesus it selfe which Christ shewed to Iohn in the figure of a candlesticke because it held the light of life which Timothee abode in when Paul wrote vnto him that the church is the piller and ground of the truth euen this church of Ephesus was impaired so greatly by leauing of her first loue that Christ did therefore threaten her he would remoue her candlesticke out of his place vnlesse shee repented She repented not but by litle and litle became woorse woorse and heaped faut vpon faut yea many fautes vpon one both in maners and doctrine Therefore Christ remoued her candlesticke out of his place the chosen who shined with the light of faith he gathered to himselfe the called who hated the light he gaue ouer to darkenes the shadow of death the godly he made pillers in the temple of his God the hypocrites the filth of the temple he cast out to the dunghill of the vngodly and he left the citie of Ephesus desolate to wicked Mahomets impietie Now that may befall to euery one as they say which may befall to any one Then looke what hath befallen to the Church of Ephesus that may to euery Church But the Church of Ephesus was shaken first and crased afterwarde quite ouerthrowne and being hereft of the light of Christ is now a Church no longer Then is there no Church vpon the face of the earth howsoeuer it flatter it selfe with those titles of the candlesticke of Christ piller of the truth there is no Church I say whose bodie that is the chosen may not be ouertaken with faintnesse and darkenesse whose dregges that is the hypocrites may not be consumed with rottennesse and destruction finally whose whole frame constitution may not be depriued both of strength and beautie I know that the Papists answere hereunto that the militant Church may erre for the flockes the people that are in it but the guides and Pastours whose assemblie is called the Church by Christ saying tell the Church can not Which is false and fond For as there are sheepe and goates in the flockes so the Pastours of them are good hirelinges or theeues The good ones do slumber sometimes as the Apostles the hirelinges fly assoone as the woolfe commeth the theeues come to steale to kill and to destroy Wherefore no Pastour is exempt from danger of erring more or lesse And for the former point that they may erre in maners what néede I bring Apostles or Prophets to proue it The complaint of Bernard is fresh I would to God it were not too fresh there creepeth an owgly rot at this present through the whole body of the Church Which wordes being spoken in reproof of the life and conuersation of the Prelates that is of the Bishops Pastours of the Church doo shew that not a common disease but a rot and that not small but ougly and that creeping on not kéeping at a stay may infect not onely this or that member but the whole body of Pastors for their maners Now that they may also be ouerseene in doctrine and erre in pointes of faith it is plainely proued by those Corinthian Pastours who built hay and stubble vpon the foundation that S. Paul had layde by them of whom S. Peter foretelleth that there should be false teachers in the new Church as in the old there were false prophets by Samosatenus Arius Nestorius Pastors of famous Churches and autors of most heinous heresies yea by the Bishops of the whole world who all were Arians in a maner when there were scarce left a few Catholiks when the whole world did grone wonder at it selfe that it was become an Arian But the Papistes will reply that when they say the Church caÌ„not erre they meane the Church in that sense in which the Schoole-men call it representatiue that is Bishops and Prelates representing the whole church in a generall Councell What And hath that Church I meane a generall Councell this priuilege that it can not erre They hold so in deede But what will they say of so many Councels of the Arians which caused Gregorie Nazianzene to despaire that any good would be doon by Councels But they deny these to haue béene lawfull Councels What will they answere then to those which them selues confesse to haue béene lawfull The Councell of Laodicea though a prouinciall Councell yet allowed by a generall did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the olde Church had
Catholike Church without the which there is no saluatioÌ„ nor forgiuenes of sinnes he créepeth vp to the head of the Church eueÌ„ Iesus Christ from Christ the head he slippeth downe by stealth vnto Christs vicar one and the same head as he saith with Christ euen the Pope of Rome whom yet to be the head of the Catholike Church not him selfe would say vnlesse perhaps in a dreame for theÌ„ he shuld be head of the triumphant church which is a part of the Catholike but he would be head of the visible church which he nameth Catholike therby the more easily to deceiue the simple who being astonied and snared with that name the fowler shutteth vp the net and concludeth that euery earthly creature if he will be saued must of necessitie be subiect to the Pope Thus saith Pope Boniface But vnlesse the Pope him selfe and the Fathers of his Councell of Trent being thereto forced by the truth of scripture confesse against them selues that the holy Catholike Church doth not signify the visible company of the Church militant coÌ„sisting of the good and badde mixt together which sense the Papists giue it with their Pope Boniface to the intent they may be kings I will not request you to beleue me in it For in the Catechisme which was set foorth by Pope Pius the fifth according to the decree of the Councell of Trent hauing said that the Church in the Creed doth chiefly signifie the company of the good bad togither they adde that Christ is head of the Church as of his body so that as bodily members haue life from the soule in like sort the faithfull haue from Christs spirit and therefore it is holy because it hath receiued the grace of holines and forgiuenes of sinnes from Christ who sanctifieth washeth it with his blood and it is called Catholike because it is spred in the light of one faith from the east to the west receiuing men of all sortes be they Scythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female conteining all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the ende of the world proâ—essing the true faith being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Pope Pius therefore and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the Church which is specified in the Creede is the body of Christ. Now the scripture teacheth that all the body of Christ is quickned and increased by the holy Ghost as if he were the soule of it But the bad and wicked are neither quickned nor increased Then are they no part of the body of Christ and therfore neither of the Church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councel of Trent affirme that the Church is holy being washed by the blood of Christ indued with grace of holines and with forgiuenes of sinnes Now blessed are they whose sinnes are forgiuen blessed are the cleane in heart for they shall see God But the bad and wicked shall neither see God nor are blessed Therefore neither haue they forgiuenes of sinnes nor are their harts cleane Then are they no part of the church Pope Pius and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent affirme that the church is called Catholike in respect that it conteineth all the faithfull from the first to the last professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ. But the wicked and hypocrites either are not faithfull or if they may be called so yet they professe not the true faith or if they professe it yet they are not built on Christ. For they who are built on Christ are built on a rocke and shall neuer be remoued But the wicked shall be remoued Then are they no part of the church Yet they must néedes be a part of the church if the name of church did signifie the visible church as we call it consisting of the good and bad Wherfore it foloweth thereof that the church mentioned in the Créede betokeneth not the visible church that is the company of good and bad together which it is imagined to do by the builders of the Popes monarchie Thus as Caiaphas in the Gospel although he spake many things amisse against Christ yet being the high Priest that same yeere he saide well in this spéech though ill meant too that it was expedient for them that one man should dye for the people so the Pope and the Fathers of the Councell of Trent being the high Priestes that same yere though they meant yll in saying that the holy catholike church which we beléeue is the company of good and bad mixt together yet being lead and moued by some diuine force to speake better then they meant they added such an exposition that their owne doctrine is ouerthrowen by it the errour of the Councell of Constance is discouered and the truth of the scripture confirmed and established Wherefore I may iustly conclude against the Papists out of the Pope him selfe and the Councell of Trent that all the good and holy men and none but they do make the holy Catholike church But séeing our faith must haue a better ground then humane decrées either of Popes or Councels whose breath is in their nosethrils whose houses are of clay and their foundation is sande therefore let vs stay our selues on that conclusion which I made before on warrant of the holy Ghost who hath spoken to vs by the Apostles and Prophets The holy Catholik Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen And let this suffice for the first Conclusion The second doth folow The church of Rome is not the catholike church nor a sound meÌ„ber of the catholike church Of the which position that we may the better perceiue the drift and truth we must search somewhat déeper and fetch the beginnings of particular churches out of the fountaine whence they flowe God hauing chosen in his eternall purpose the holy catholike church that is all his children to be the heires of his kingdome and to triumph in heauenly glory with him and his elect Angels doth first of all sende them abroade into the earth as it were into a campe there to serue him in warre against the flesh the world the deuill and all the powers of darkenes vnder the banner of Christ that they may come conquerours out of warfare to the triumph and may striue lawfully before they be crowned Whereto that they may be the stronger made and better furnished to endure the labour and hardnes of warfare God begetteth them a new by his word the word working effectually through the holy Ghost as it were by seede and with the same word he nourisheth them as with milke strengtheneth them as with meat armeth them as with a sword of the Spirit and frameth them a shield of faith wherewith they may quench the firie dartes of the wicked one Yea the more
THE SVMME OF THE CONFERENCE BETWENE IOHN RAINOLDES AND IOHN HART TOVCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHVRCH Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures the ministerie of the Church the function of Priesthood the sacrifice of the Masse with other controuersies of religion but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouerment opened in the branches of Christes supreme soueraintie of Peters pretended the Popes vsurped the Princes lawfull Supremacie Penned by Iohn Rainoldes according to the notes set downe in writing by them both perused by Iohn Hart and after things supplied altered as he thought good allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them Whereto is annexed a Treatise intitled SIX CONCLVSIONS TOVCHING THE HOLIE SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH writen by Iohn Rainoldes With a defense of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein 1. Ioh. 4.1 Deerely beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world Londini impensis Geor. Bishop 1584 TO THE RIGHT Honorable the Lord Robert Dudley Earle of Leicester one of her Maiesties priuie Councell and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford grace and peace be multiplied THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities right Honorable in the Church of God doth shew that they were planted to bee nurseries of Prophets who being instructed in the truth of his word might deliuer it to men and lighten as starres the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon whose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen cast them to the earth that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse against the light and truth of Christ. The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them of the Synagogue of Libertines and Cyrenians who disputed with Steuen A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow that they should not thinke it strange or be dismayed if Schooles Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof as it was needefull for our predecessours when Rabbines of the Iewes Philosophers of the HeatheÌ„s Sorbonists amoÌ„g Christians being seduced themselues seduced others so haue the Seminaries of our English students erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes made it needeful also for vs at this day The more how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines Cyrenians For as they defended the Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions As they did pretend the care of religion of Moses and God the law the Temple so do the Seminaries of the Catholike faith the Scriptures and the Church As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen that he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place and the law so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting from the holy Church and corrupting the Scriptures I am not worthie to be compared with the least of the seruants of God who liued at that time in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly Howbeit as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour that I should be called to conferre with certaine of the Popish Seminaries Of whom one contented to proceede farther therin then the rest by writing not by word onely hath giuen occasion ofthis which here I publish Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with himselfe hath declared My conscience for mine owne part beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth with the same purpose by the same principles grouÌ„ds that SteueÌ„ did Wishing from my hart if so it please God that it may preuaile more with English Papists then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests But ready by his grace to endure their spite ifthey hate me for telling them the truth as the Iewes did him Now sith Luke who penned the story of Steuen sent it to Theophilus most noble Theophilus I haue bene the bolder to present my conference vnto you right Honorable aduanced in state to be of the most noble in minde a Theophilus and louer of the truth Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie in maintenance of our priuileges priuately to me ward a member thereof haue bound me to offer this testificatâ—on of a thankefull minde And sith it hath bene I know a greefe vnto you that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne proselytes thence I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne and printed to reclaime them who are gon if may bee or at least to stay them who are not gon should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour that as you haue begoon so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie that they who haue the charge of husbanding it may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely that neither the wild boare of the forest nor other vermin may anoy it that the fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate the leaues for medicine through waters running out of the sanctuarie and the tree of life may grow in the middest of it as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of a noble Theophilus the reward whereof shall folow from God who will render to euery man according to his workes the remeÌ„brance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite specially of that which hath the promise of this life and of the life to come to your endlesse comfort through Iesu Christ the Lord of life At London the eighteenth of Iuly 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commaundement Iohn Rainoldes Iohn Hart to the indifferent Reader BEhold gentle Reader the conference which thou hast so long looked for betweene M. Rainoldes and me at length ended as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since had not my selfe hindred the coÌ„ming of it foorth when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer For it is now aboue two yeares ago that the right honorable Syr Francis Walsingham as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended in graunting me libertie of conference at home first in mine owne countrie and afterwarde in prison so when the sentence of death was past vpon me hee ceased not still to offer me the
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
you complaine I know you may haue more bookes if you would haue such as are best for you to read But you would haue such as might nourish your humor from reading of the which they who restraine you are your friendes If a man do surfet of varietie of dishes the Phisicion doth well to dyet him with one wholsome kinde of meat Perhaps it were better for some of vs who read all sortes that we were tyed to that alone suffred part of your restraint We are troubled about many things but one thing is needfull Many please the fansie better but one doth profit more the minde He was a wise preacher who said The reading of many bookes is a wearinesse vnto the flesh and therefore exhorted men to take instruction by the wordes of trueth the wordes of the wise which are giuen by one pastor euen by Iesus Christ whose spirit did speake in the Prophets and Apostles and taught his Church the trueth by them Howbeit for as much as God hath giuen giftes to men pastours and teachers whose labour might helpe vs to vnderstand the words of that one pastor we do receaue thankfully the monuments of their labour left in wryting to the Church which they were set to builde eyther seuerall as the Doctors or assembled as the Councels we do gladly read them as Pastors of the Church Yet so that we put a difference betwene them and that one Pastor For God did giue him the spirite not by measure the rest had a measure of grace and knowledge through him Wherfore if to supply your whatsoeuer wants you would haue the bookes of Doctors and Councels to vse them as helps for the better vnderstanding of the booke of Christ your wants shal be supplyed you shall not need to feare disaduantage in this respect For M. Secretarie hath taken order that you shall haue what bookes you will vnlesse you will such as cannot be gotten Hart. The bookes that I would haue are principally in déed the Fathers and the Councels which all do make for vs as do the scriptures also But for my direction to finde out their places in all poyntes of controuersie which I can neither remember redily nor dare to trust my selfe in them I would haue our writers which in the seuerall poyntes whereof they treate haue cited them and buyld themselues vpon them In the question of the Church and the supremacie Doctor Stapleton of the Sacraments and sacrifice of the Masse Doctor Allen of the worshipping of Sayntes and Images Doctor Harpsfield whose bookes were set forth by Alan Cope beare his name as certaine letters in them shew Likewise for the rest of the pointes that lie in controuersie them who in particular haue best written of them for them al in generall S. Thomas of Aquine Father Roberts Dictates and chiefly the confession that Torrensis an other father of the societie of Iesus hath gathered out of S. Augustine which booke we set the more by because of al the Fathers S. Augustine is the chéefest as well in our as your iudgement and his doctrine is the common doctrine of the Fathers whose consent is the rule whereby controuersies should be ended Rainoldes These you shall haue God willing and if you will Canisius too because he is so full of textes of Scriptures and Fathers and many doe estéeme him highly But this I must request you to looke on the originalles of Scriptures Councels Fathers which they doe alleadge For they doe perswade you that all doe make for you but they abuse you in it They borrow some gold out of the Lordes treasure house and wine out of the Doctors presses but they are deceitful workmen they do corrupt their golde with drosse their wine with worse then water Hart. You shall finde it harder to conuince them of it then to charge them with it Rainoldes And you shall finde it harder to make proofe of halfe then to make claime of all Yet you shall see both youre claime of all the Scriptures and Fathers to bee more confidente then iust and my reproofe of your wryters for theyr corrupting and forging of them as plainly prooued as vttered if you haue eyes to see God lighten your eyes that you may see open your eares that you may heare and geue you both a softe hart and vnderstanding minde that you may be able wisely to discerne and gladly to embrace the trueth when you shall heare it Hart. I trust I shall be able alwayes both to see and to followe the trueth But I am perswaded you will be neuer able to shew that that is the trueth which your Church professeth As by our conference I hope it shal be manifest Rainoldes UUill you then to lay the ground of our conference let me know the causes why you separate your selfe and refuse to communicate with the Church of England in prayers and religion Hart. The causes are not many They may be al comprysed in one Your Church is no Church You are not members of the Church Rainoldes How proue you that Hart. By this argument The Church is a companie of Christian men professing one faith vnder one head You professe not one faith vnder one head Therefore you are not of the Church Rainoldes What is that one faith Hart. The catholike faith Rainoldes Who is that one head Hart. The Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Then both the propositions of which you frame your argument are in part faultie The first in that you say the church is a companie of Christian men vnder one head The second in that you charge vs of the church of England that wee professe not one faith For we do professe that one faith the catholike faith But we deny that the church is bound to be subiect to that one head the bishop of Rome Hart. I will proue the pointes of both my propositions the which you haue denied First that the church must be subiect to the Bishop of Rome as to her head Next that the faith which you professe in England is not the catholike faith Rainoldes You will say somewhat for them but you will neuer proue them Hart. Let the church iudge For the first thus I proue it S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles Therefore the Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops If of Bishops then by consequent of the dioceses subiect to them If of all their dioceses then of the whole church The Bishop of Rome therefore is head of the whole church of Christ. Rainoldes S. Peter was head of all the Apostles The Bishop of Rome is head of all Bishops I had thought that Christ our Sauiour both was and is the head as of the whole church so of Apostles of Bishops of all the members of it For the church is his
body and he alone performeth the dutie of an head vnto it by giuing it power of life of feeling of mouing and him hath God appointed to be the head to the Church and by him all the body furnished and knit togither by iointes and bandes encreaseth with the encreasing of God Hart. We graunt that Christ is properly the head of the church the principall and quickning head But this head is imperiall so to terme him and inuisible The Pope is a visible and ministeriall head yet in truth a head also For of the head there are two dueties the one to bee the fountaine out of the which there floweth life into the rest of the body the other to direct by his rule and power the outward functions of the body The former duety doth agree to God alone and Christ. The later to the seruice and ministery of men too Rainoldes This your answere of two heades doth stand with more reason then his who said that Christ and Christes vicar Peter and Peters successor the Pope are all but one head of the church Howbeit so to make a twofold head as you do by the variety of two dueties it is not to diuide but to rent a sunder the dueties of the head and to make the Pope a head imperiall rather then a ministeriall For by rule and power to direct either the inward or outward functions of the bodie is the chiefe and proper function of the head agréeing to that head alone that giueth power of life and féeling and mouing to the body Wherefore sith Christ hauing bound him selfe by his promise to be with vs vntill the end of the world doth giue this power vnto his church by the effectuall working of his holy spirite which doth quicken both the whole and euery member of his body they who do diuide the preeminence of this duety betwéene him and the Pope allotting to him the inward to the Pope the outward functions to be directed deserue to be attainted of treason against the Lord. For séeing that to exercise this rule and dominion is a prerogatiue royall and proper to the king of kings to giue it either in whole or in part to any subiect can not be a lesser offence then hie treason Hart. If you account this to be treason against the Lord and do attaint vs of it You must attaint him selfe of it who by his word hath brought vs to it For S. Paule comparing the church vnto a body to shew the sundry giftes of Christians and in their sundry giftes their seuerall dueties by the similitude of members doth mention a head amongst them The eâ—e cannot say vnto the hand I haue no neede of thee nor the head to the feete I haue no neede of you Here the name of head must by al likelyhood bee meant of the Pastor in respect of the flock But it cannot be meant of Christ. For he may say to vs I haue no neede of you and so he willeth vs also when we shal haue done all things that are coÌ„manded vs to say we are vnprofitable seruants It must be meant therefore of Peter in respect of the rest of the Apostles and by consequent of the Pope in respect of all Bishops Rainoldes If Paule had so meant it either of Peter or of the Pope he had a tongue of the learned he could easily haue so expounded it But in the applying of his similitude to his purpose he sheweth that he meant by the name of head them who had the greatest graces of Gods spirite by feete hands and eies them who not so great though greater some then other Hart. Them who had the greatest Nay the name of head doth shew it must be one and that one visible head which wée call a ministeriall head vnder Christ proportionable to the body of Christ I meane the Church Of the which visible and ministeriall head those wordes of S. Paule may bee truely verified The head cannot say to the feete I haue no neede of you Rainoldes Indeede if the Pope be signified by the head those words will fitte him well For Cardinall Poole discoursing on the same reason of the Popes supremacie doth make as him the head so kings to be the féete And it is true the Pope can not say to kings I haue no neede of you It would bée hard going for him if they were not But if because Saint Paule doth in that similitude mention a head therefore there must be one visible head proportionable to the body of Christ that is the Church then because S. Paule doth mention the féete there must bee néedes also two visible féete by the like proportion Now I would gladly know of you Maister Hart which you will make the two féete of your church The Emperour I trow must be the right foote The left who The king of Spaine What shall the French king do then It is well that the king of Scots is no member of it nor the king of Denmarke Marry we had newes of the king of Swethland that Iesuits had conuerted him Shal he be the left foote Or shall the king of Poleland set in a foote for it Or is the king of Boheme nearer it There is a king of Bungo too who is reported to protect your religion in his countries and likewise the Great Turke other princes of Mahomets sect they may be féete in time also But how many féete may this body haue May it haue sixe seauen eight may it haue twentie visible féete and may it not haue ten not foure not two may it haue but one visible head Hart. Cardinall Pole compareth kinges vnto féete not as though they were the lowest partes of the church for hée counteth them as speciall members though not heads but because the church in the course of her growth was last of all increased with them as with féete and so did make an end of growing Rainoldes Then in Saint Paules time the church had no féete but a head without them And what doth he meane to saye that the head could not speake to the feete when it had no féete to speake too Hart. Yes it had féete then but of an other sort For they who were of lower degrees and meaner giftes in the church of Christ are resembled to féete in comparison of others who were in those respects as hands and eies aboue them Rainoldes And do you thinke the church had but two such féete Or had it many hundreds For christians were growne long before to thousands and it is not likely the most of them were eyes and hands Hart. It had no doubt many But you must not racke the members of similitudes beyond the principall pointes whereto they are applied and meant For els you might infer too that the church must haue but two eies and two hands because a mans body to which S. Paule resembleth the church hath no more Rainoldes As you say Yet
expounde the Latin according to the Hebrue but to alaye the Hebrue according to the Latine Wherefore in that I saide that if we should goe from your authenticall Latin to the originall textes it would be misliked of I doo you no iniurie Yet I mislike it not in your plea for Peter that you take aduantage not of the originall but of a translation nay I like it well Though I like not that which you adde to proue it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Greeke toong dooth signifie a rocke as Cephas in the Syriake and so the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haue one meaning For they haue one meaning not because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a rocke as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a stone as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifieth a stone your owne learned linguists as you call them note and examples thereof are rife But that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any where signifieth a rocke neither doo they shew nor haue other skilfuâ—l of that toong obserued You say that it is so in the Athenian language but you bring no Athenian nor any Grecian else to witnesse it And the French toong which foloweth the Gréeke as in many other words so in this hath the same word you know for a stone and for the name of Peter Wherein there is a print of the true originall meaning of that name in the Gréeke toong But Christ did call him Cephas in the Syriake toong and Cephas you say doth signifie a rocke as Fabricius sheweth But Fabricius sheweth further that Cephas doth signifie a stone also And though he or rather the Iewe whom he citeth reporteth their saying who expounde the name as taken from that worde in signification of a rocke yet hauing mentioned the other of a stone he saith therevpon that so his name is Peter in the Romane toong and in the Italian a stone is called pereda Whereunto I might adde that an other learned writer of the Iewes and auncienter then he doeth likewise say as opening the sense of Peters name that he is called stone But that Christ did meane a stone not a rocke in naming him Cephas your stoutest champion D. Sanders may serue in stéed of many witnesses For he wanting no will to go as far as the boldest and hauing many yeares aduised of the matter durst say no more for Cephas but that it signifieth a stone at the most a great stone euen petra it selfe he doeth expound in this maner Super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam Thou shalt bee the first stone next me of that church which I will build on earth In the which iudgement he doeth deserue the greater credite at your handes because he was contented to hazard his life with the Pope against his Prince in that holy quarell and hauing spent his chiefest studie in the point he had before times expounded it a rocke the which exposition so fit for the Papacy he would haue neuer left had not the truth enforced him to retire from it A thing so much the likelier because when hee laboured first to infect men with the Popes supremacie by the name of rocke and therfore both in the title and course of all his booke did sound the rocke of the church euen then he did expound Cephas and Peter doubtfully a rocke or a stone and yelding the reason why Christ did name him so he mentioned a stone onely because what place a stone hath in holding vp the house which is built vpon it the same should Peter haue in vpholding the frame of Christes militant church Wherefore you must let go your holde of the rocke whereon D. Stapleton doth beast your house is built and be content to lay a stone in stéed of it Let our Sauiour Christ alone be the rocke If you dash your selfe against him therein he will breake you in péeces Hart. It is a disputable point You sée that learned men are of sundrie iudgements in expounding of it some thinking it betokeneth a stone some a rocke Wherefore you can not force me to take the one and leaue the other Rainoldes Not by mens wordes but by the word of God I can For Christ in the Syriake toong did name him Cephas and Cephas in the Gréeke is expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in English signifieth a stone And sure you had done better if as the Gréeke text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Syriake translation Cephas Cephas so you had made it in English stone and stone For Peter and peter doth not expresse the force of the Syriake word Rocke and rocke is strong but the text doth not beare it Stone and stone is fit had you not thought it too slender Now sith you doo presse the Syriake translation to shew thereby the meaning of the Latin as you say you must giue me leaue to tell you that the wordes should be rather Englished after the Syriake thus Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church Hart. Rocke or stone if I should giue you leaue to choose whither of them you list what gaine you thereby Rainoldes The truth which I deale for shall gaine thus much by it that although you construe those words that Christ would build his church vpon Peter for your most aduantage euen as Sanders doth yet is it not proued thereby that Christ did promise him a supreme-headship ouer the Aposâ—les For the church of Christ which is the company of Gods elect and chosen isresembled in Scripture to a materiall temple such as was the temple which Salomon built So as that was called a house the house of prayer in like sort the church is called a house too but a spirituall house to distinguish it from that which house because it must be made of all the godly as it were of stones grounded on Christ by faith though the doctrine of the Apostles therefore Christ is called the chiefe corner stone in respect of the Iewes and Gentiles as of walls which are ioyned in him the foundation in respect of the whole house yea the foundation of foundation as the Prophet termeth him the twelue Apostles laid next vpon Christ are called twelue foundations the faithfull laide on them or rather after them on him are called stones not dead ones such as the temple had but liuing the working and framing of them to this purpose is called building and edifying which is done by preaching of the word of truth coupling them togither betwéene them selues and with Christ that they may grow to bee a holie temple in the Lord for God to dwell in by his spirite Wherefore if the wordes of Christ be
so taken that he meant the laying of Peter as a principall stone next to him selfe and others vpon him wheÌ„ he sayd Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church this sheweth that Peter was in the first ranke as I may say of stones I meane he was in order with the first who beléeued and amongst those first he had a marke of honour in that he was named stone aboue his brethren But it sheweth not that he should be head of the rest of the Apostles For as he so they are called foundations and Christ did build his church as well on them as on him Hart. Then you grant that Christ did promise to build his church vpon Peter Rainoldes I doo so Hart. Not vpon his doctrine onely but his person Rainoldes After a sort What then Hart. What then What say you then to Doctors of your owne side namely to Sadeel and Mornay whom you praised so greatly and brought them me to reade They write that the church was builded not vpon the person of Peter but vpon his doctrine preaching Christ vnto vs. You graunt the contrarie Rainoldes What say you to the auncient Doctors whom they follow chiefly to S. Austin He writeth that the rocke which our Sauior promised to build his church vpon is Christ and not Peter You hold the coÌ„trary Thou art Peter saith he and vpon this rock which thou hast confessed vpon this rock which thou hast knowne saying Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God will I build my church I will build thee vpon mee not me vpon thee For men entending to build on men said I hold of Paul I of Apollos I of Cephas that is Peter and others who would not be builded vpon Peter but vpon the rocke said I hold of Christ. For the rocke was Christ vpon the which foundation Peter him selfe was builded sith no man can lay an other foundation beside that which is laide which is Iesus Christ. What say you to the rest namely to Gregorie Nysâ—en to Cyril to Chrysostome to Ambrose to Hilarie They write that this rocke is the consession of Peter They say not it is Peters person Hart. That exposition of S. Austin denying Peter to be the rocke was lapsus humanus as D. Stapleton calleth it caused by the diuersitie of the Gréeke and Latin toong which either he was ignorant of or marked not Howbeit neuerthelesse it hath a true meaning though not the full proper sense of this place Besides that him selfe doth other-where expound it as vnderstood of Peter according to the famous verses of S. Ambrose in which he calleth Peter the rocke of the Church The rest of the Fathers who apply the rocke to Peters confession imply his person in it For to say that the Church is built on the confession and beliefe of Peter is all one in déed and to say it is built on Peter confessing and beleeuing in Christ. Wherefore in as much as they affirme the former they prooue withall the later by it Rainoldes S. Austin and the Fathers are beholding to you whose wordes though not answering well to your fansies are handled so gentlie If you were as fauourable to Sadeel and Mornay that which they write of Peter would haue a true meaning Though if they with greater zeale vnto his doctrine then vnto his person that is to Christ then to Peter had giuen a litle lesse to him then is due the faulte were not so much to bée â—aide on their restraint as on your excesse who say a great deale more of him then you ought For example Father Robert the Prince of the Iesuites in his Diuinitie lectures read publikelie at Rome about seuen yeares agoe handling this same point of the foundation of the Church did ground him selfe on a sentence of the Prophet Esay to proue it to be Peter and Peters see the see of Rome Whereof to make his proofe strong by the wordes which God doth speake of Christ Behold I lay in Sion a tried pretious corner stone a sure foundation he affirmed that Esay did therein prophecie not of Christ but of Peter a stumbling stone to heretikes a rock of offense but to Catholikes a tried a pretious a corner stone S. Peter the Apostle expoundeth those wordes not of himselfe but of Christ. Father Robert the Iesuit sayth that they agrée not to Christ but to him So to aduaunce the Popes dignitie by Peter he maketh Peter himselfe nay the holy Ghost a lier Such blasphemous outrages of your chéefe professors giuing more to Peter then staÌ„deth with the truth and honor of the Sonne of God might prouoke the godly spirites of his seruantes to bend to the contrarie as husbandmen when they would straighten a young plant that groweth crooked one way do bow it to the other But in the discourse of Sadeel and Mornay that the Church is built vpon the confession of Peter not his person there is no straining of ought beyond the truth for the meaning of it by your owne iudgement For they approue and folow the exposition of S. Austin and that you affirme hath a true meaning As for the maner of S. Austins spéech I graunt it séemeth somewhat tough to expound those wordes of Christ as if he sayd Thou art Peter and vpon me not Thou art Peter and vpon thee will I build my Church But if the circumstances of his spéeche bée weighed you shal find not only the meaning of it true but the maner good For as it is writen that God commaunded the Iues to offer burnt offerings sacrifices vnto him yet God sayth in Ieremie that he spake not to them neither commaunded them touching burnt offerings and sacrifices not as though he had not commanded the things but because he did not commaund them in that sort and respect as they vsed them so though it be true that Christes wordes to Peter doe import this sense Vpon thee will I build my Church yet because hée spake them in respect of Peters profession and faith vpon Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God not in respect of Peters person which they built on who sayd I hold of Paul I of Apollos I of Cephas S. Austin might expound them well as he doth that Christ sayd to Peter I wil build my church not vpon thee but vpon me In the which conclusion the rest of the Fathers who expound it of Peters confession doe ioyne with S. Austin Neither can your shuffling of Peters coÌ„fession with Peter confessing inueigle their consent For they doo expound and vnderstand it plainelie some of him whom Peter confessed that is Christ the Sonne of the liuing God some of Peters faith wherwith he confessed him as by which the faithfull are builded on Christ. And this is their meaning in saying that which your men doo vainelie triumph at the church is built on Peter
as it appeareth by S. Hilarie Who giuing him the title of the foundatiō of the church expoundeth it some times of his faith in Christ some times of Christ himselfe in whom he beléeued But admitte that Christ had meant Peters person when he promised him that he would build his church vpon him What conclude you of it Hart. This I do conclude that séeing the church was built vpon Peter and the Apostles themselues were part of the Church therefore the Apostles were built vpon him and so was he their foundation By consequent whereof séeing the foundation is the same to a house which a head is to a bodie I do conclude againe that Peter was the head of all the Apostles And so my purpose is proued Rainoldes This conclusion hath neither foundation nor head For by as good reason you may conclude also that séeing the Church was built vpon Peter and Peter him selfe is a part of the church therefore was Peter built vpon him selfe and so was he his own foundatiō And because a foundation is the same to a house which a head is to a bodie therefore S. Peter was S. Peters head Or if you sée not either the necessitie or folly of this consequence as it is made of Peter you may frame the lyke of any other of the Apostles and you will espy it For the church of Christ is the great Citie that holie Ierusalem whereof the wall had twelue foundations and in them the names of the Lambs twelue Apostles Then séeing that the church was built vpon euerie one of those twelue as vpon Iames by name and Peter was a part of the church it foloweth that Peter was built vpon Iames and so was Iames his foundation And séeing a foundation is the same to a house which a head is to a bodie it followeth againe that Iames was Peters head which if your self denie you must denie that wherof it doth folow by force of like reason And so your purpose is not proued Hart. But we do imagine that in this building of the church and laying the foundations of it Christ did laie Peter next vpon himselfe as the foundation of the rest and other Apostles vpon him Rainoldes Indéede you doo imagin it And you consider not that your imagination is crossed by it selfe not onelye by the truth For if the twelue Apostles of the Lambe on whom hee built his church were laid as twelue foundations one vpon an other Peter lowest of them then as Peter was foundation of eleuen so the next to him must be of ten the next to him of nine and likewise ech of the next vntill the last of none A thing flatte repugnant to your imagination wherein you make Peter onely head of the rest the rest of them equall all amongst themselues Neither doth it stand with that proportion of the building which the scripture maketh reseruing the prerogatiue of the onely singular foundation to Christ and ioyning the Apostles all in equall honour of the twelue foundations as I haue shewed For Christ in this house is as it were a rocke a rockie sure and firme ground on which both the Apostles and all his church is built as the citie of Dauid was on the mount Sion The Apostles are as stones as twelue most pretious stones which being laid ioyntlie one by an other all on Christ are as twelue foundations and walles of chosen stones are raysed vp on them vntill the whole number of the elect be laid on and the building finished One of these foundations might excell an other in pretiousnes of graces For the first foundation saith Iohn was a Iasper the second a Sapphire the third a Chalcedonie the fourth an Emeraude and so forth the rest Or because I know not the vertues of these stones the stones which the Disciples of Christ did meruaile at in the temple of Ierusalem for the fairenes and greatnes of them were as Iosephus writeth fiue and twentie cubites long eight cubites hie and twelue cubites broad Now as among such stones one might be fairer or better wrought then other so might one Apostle of Christ excell his felowes in zeale or other giftes as namelie S. Peter Unlesse perhaps S. Paul whom Christ did adde to the twelue excelled both him and them which I do thinke rather for he labored more then they all and by your owne confession conuerted more vnto the faith But neither Paule nor Peter were foundations of the rest they were altogither ioint-foundations of the church laid on Christ the onely and singular foundation to speake of a foundation properly UUherefore though our Sauiour in saying to Peter Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church had meant that he would build it vpon Peters person which serueth best your fansy yet doth not that saying inferre a supreme-headship But doubtles if your fansy can yéeld vnto the truth he meant not Peters person but his faith and function in preaching of the faith For the onely person that the church is built on as on a foundation by the strength and vertue whereof it is vpholden is the sonne of God our Sauiour Iesus Christ beside whom no other foundation may be laid in whom all the building being coupled togither groweth vnto an holy temple in the Lord. Now because that faith in the sonne of God doth make the liuing stones whereof the building is compact and knitte vp on Christ a stone of which sort Peter had shewed himselfe to be by beleeuing and professing that faith Christ told him that he was according to his name stone a stone indeede and hauing chosen him to preach the same faith whereby there shoulde be laide more stones on that building hee saide vpon this stone will I build my church UUherin as he shewed that whosoeuer should be members of his church must be members of it by felowship with Peters faith so he shewed withall that hee would impart that faith to his church by the ministerie of Peter As appeareth farther by that which he added To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Hart. Yet euen this doth argue still the same prerogatiue which we giue to Peter For séeing Christ said that he woulde build his Church vpon that stone or rocke as I take it and that which a church is builded vpon must needes be a foundation it foloweth that Peter was a foundation of the church Not a principall foundation for that is Christ onely of whom it is true that other foundation no man can laye beside that which is laid which is Christ Iesus but as wee terme it a ministeriall foundation UUhich by the proportion of a foundation to a house and a head to a bodie is enough to proue that Christ would make Peter head of the Apostles I meane a ministeriall head Rainoldes But here againe you fal into your former fault and
to Open mine eies that I may see the wonders of thy law Hart. You may say what you list But experience sheweth and it is most certaine that manye who allow those meanes which you do and expound the scripture by them are themselues deceiued and deceiue others For the conference of places by which you set more then by all the rest which you call a great remedy and the best exposition of scripture that may be had let this remedy be taken seuerally and by it selfe it is marueilous deceitfull yea pernicious and pestilent so much the more by how much in shew it is more probable and still at least corrupteth two places of scripture if it be vsed peruersly In deede we acknowledge gladly with S. Austin that place receiueth light of place and those thinges which one-where are spoken somewhat darkely are other-where more cleerely vttered But in conference of scriptures it is to be knowne and diligently marked which heretikes will not marke because they will not be catholikes and good children of the church first that one saying may seeme to be like or vnlike an other not so much for the likenes and vnlikenes of thinges as for the preiudice and affection of them by whom they are conferred Secondly that the same word or kind of spéech hath not euery where the same signification but sometimes diuerse sometimes contrarie Thirdly that there are many places in the scripture which being vttered only once haue not any like wherwith you may confer them Fourthly and lastly that all heretikes both of this and of all ages in conferring the scriptures most diligently togither yet haue erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully Which reasons why the conference of places of scripture is a deceitfull meanes of expounding the scripture and leadeth often into errour D. Stapleton a man well learned out of question how weake soeuer you account him hath set downe and proued them with such examples as might preuaile with you perhaps if you would weigh them Rainoldes I haue weighed them and I find them to light The marchant whom you praise is rich I denie not but sure he vseth false weights and abuseth the simple who take their wares vpon his credit Poore men conceiuing well of them whom they fansie thinke him to deale vprightly for that he raileth at others saying that they are deceauers because they will not be honest dealers and good children of the weale publike But let his words go and haue an eie to his weights If you shoulde tell a yoong beginner in shooting that they who looke at the marke and louse directly towards it do not alwaies hit it your speech were a truth But if you should say that all naughtie archers which are or euer were haue fowlly missed the marke in aiming at it most straightly he might suspect either your skill or your will who traine vp archers so What may we thinke then of him who to perswade men that conference of scriptures is a deceitfull way to hit their right sense doth say that all heretikes both of this and of all ages in conferring the scriptures most diligently togither yet haue erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully For though they might erre in conferring of them yet the fault thereof must be not in conferring them most diligently but in not conferring them diligently enough And this is the last of your Doctors reasons The next before it is no better He saith that there are many places in the scripture which haue not any like wherewith you may conferre them The proofe he bringeth of it is that there are sundry speeches in S. Paule which are in no Prophet nor Apostle beside him as for example sake to put of the olde man and put on the newe Which proofe is like the point whereof it maketh proofe For if the same speeches be not in any other yet there are speeches lyke them whereby they may be vnderstood Or if not in others yet in S. Paule himselfe who lightneth so his owne speeches Or if not in him yet conferre them with the drift and circumstances of the text the course of thinges and wordes will open what is meant by them And so alleage what place of scripture you list the darkest that you can let a man expound it after our rules and it will neuer leade him into heresie For either it hath plaine places to expound it and being expounded according vnto them it is farre from heresie or if it haue no such it hath no danger of heresie because all things required to beliefe and life are set downe plainely in the Scriptures The daunger all lyeth in your first and second point the one touching sayinges that mens corrupt affections may iudge vnlike or like when in truth they are not so the other touching wordes that may bee mistaken through mens ouersightes as signifying the same thing or sundry which they do not And by these meanes we grant that the scriptures may be and are of many expounded amisse to the verifying of that which S. Peter writeth of S. Paules epistles that in them are some thinges hard to be vnderstood which they that are vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they doo also other scriptures to their owne destruction Hereof wee haue notable examples in your selues or because of yours wee shall speake hereafter in the Familie of loue and that ympe of Satan their maister Harry Nicolas Whom the spirite of errour hath through an illusion of ignorance so bewitched that as though he tooke a glorie in his shame to be him selfe and his vnlearned such as S. Peter pointeth at he detesteth the learned and skilfull in the scripture the scripture-wise as he termeth thē and giueth it in charge to his babes to shunne them Christ was too skilfull in scriptures for the Deuill Else might the Deuil by the shew of scripture which he did alleage or missealleage rather haue perseuered with greater hope in tempting Christ. But shall we suspect and mislike the scripture because hee missealleaged it or the conference of scripture because his ympes vse it peruersely We haue not learned Christ so Nay so much the more should we labour and trauaile to search it most diligently and wisely to conferre it to wrest by that meanes their sword out of their handes and kill their owne errour with it For the destruction of such spirituall foes is the sword of the spirite and the sword of the spirite is the word of God So the Familie of loue which make a mocke of our faith our saluatiō by Christ our resurrection the iudgement and euerlasting life and to saue their frensies from daunger of the scripture beate flatte the literall sense which is the edge of it and put it vp into a scabberd of their fanaticall dreames and allegories let the two edged sword be drawne out and sharpned with this conference and as the flame of fire deuoureth the
stubble so will the point of truth rippe vp the bowels of their errours So the Arians when they brought broken sentences of scripture in shew resembling somewhat their blasphemous doctrine against the sonne of God but indeede vnlike it they were ouerthrowne through the conference of scriptures by the Nicen councell and godly pastors of the church So the Pelagians the enimies of grace vnder the name of nature when they trifled vainely to shift the scriptures off which make against the frée-will of man for Gods fauour they were put to flight with plainer places of the scriptures by the Councels of Carthage of Mileuis of Orenge and chiefely by S. Austin So hath God conâ—ounded others of that rable will no doubt their complices if with the sword of the spirite which is the word of God wee ioine the shield of faith to quench the fyry dartes of Satan The Familie of loue shall feele it in time the Father of the Familie feared it and therefore he warned his children to beware of them who beare this weapon and haue skill to handle it of scripture-learned men And you who lay the Families synne to our charge as though we did foster that venemous vipers brood do ioine your selues to them and march into the field with them and strengthen their handes against vs. Of you they haue learned to take vp the name of Scripturemen by way of scoffe and vse it as a contumelie You teach them that the diligent yea the most diligent coÌ„ference of scriptures is the path of heretikes to most damnable errours You perswade them that the fountaines of the Greeke and Hebrue text are neither pure nor greatly néedfull You tell them that to expound the scripture by scripture is good and it is fruitfull to confer places to obserue the wordes and circumstances of the text but there are manye daungers and difficulties in it the text is not alwaies knitte and coherent to it selfe the very order of speaking is oftentimes abrupt sometimes preposterous altogither there are sundry hyperbata and anantapodota in S. Paule one word yea in one sentence hath sundry significations places may seeme like one to an other that are vnlike and contrariwise and many mo such inconueniences enough to breake the hart of a weak Christian. In the which dealing you do band your selues with the ten spies who when they should haue encouraged the people of Israell to enter into the land of promise they tolde them that the land certainly is good and floweth with milke and hony but the people dwelling in it is strong and the cities walled exceeding great and the sonnes of Anak Giants be there The Amalekites dwel in the south couÌ„trie the Hitthites and Iebusites and Amorites dwell in the mountaines the Cananites dwell by the sea and by the coast of Iorden The Lord sware in his wrath both to these spies and to the people who beléeued them that they should not enter into his rest At you and your men I maruaile M. Hart that whose fact you folow you tremble not at their end As for vs although we were but two against your ten and all the people would rather beleeue you then vs yet we will follow them who were of an other spirite Caleb and Iosua and with them will wee say to the whole assembly of the children of God The land through the which we haue gone to search it is an excellent good land If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs into this land and giue it vs euen a land that floweth with milke and honie Onely rebell yee not against the Lorde neither feare yee the people of the land for they are bread for vs. In deede the holy scripture is bread for our soules and the word of God is the foode of life If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs vnto it and giue it vs. Let vs not rebell against him nor feare the hardnes of it We must search the scriptures and pray to him for wisedome and hee will open them to vs for he hath promised and make vs learned in them Hart. We acknowledge with you that the meanes you mention namely to search the scriptures and to pray to God for wisedome and knowledge are good and godlie meanes whereby we may the sooner come to vnderstand them or rather be prepared thereto But such as neuerthelesse are not still effectuall Rainoldes They are still effectuall if men pray as they should and search them as they ought in the spirit of fayth and modestie Hart. True in that measure which is fit for euerie mans vocation and duetie some to exhort and comfort priuately some publikely to teach the church But after you haue saide all that you can we shall neuer grow to any ende and issue if we folow this way For if you alleage the scripture against me and I against you if I expound it by conference of this place and you of that if in your opinion one sentence be plaine and in mine an other in mine our meaning right and in yours the contrarie what ende can our controuersies haue without a iudge And if you yéeld to a iudge who fitter for it then the Pope Rainoldes Who but Christ our Sauiour And they which vnder him haue it committed to them euen the Church of Christ Hart. The Church Nay you mentioned the godlie before and spake as if they should trie the truth from errour by conference of the scriptures Which is your right kinde of triall and iudgement But you are ashamed of it now belike as in truth you may be For you shall finde many taylers and coblers more godly then sundrie more learned then they Yet I trust you will not repaire for shreddes and cloutes to any shop of theirs Rainoldes Yet the shreddes and cloutes of taylors and coblers may haue greater knowledge perhaps and better iudgement of the sense of scriptures then the scarlet gownes of learneder men then they For the learned Pharisees who condemned the people as ignorant of the law did not iudge the doctrine of Christ to be true nay they reiected it as false with search and see But the men of Beroea some of whom by likelihood were taylers or coblers or at least common artificers as meane as they receiued it with all readinesse vpon the search of the scriptures beleeued it Howbeit when I mentioned that iudgement of the godlie I meant the godlie learned Wherefore you néeded not to speake of shreddes and cloutes but that you were loth perhaps to léese this iest Chiefly sith I shewed thereupon withall that for the triall of controuersies by scripture the toongs in which the scripture is written must be knowne namely Gréeke and Hebrue The which shreddes and cloutes neither many taylers and coblers with vs neither many Cardinalles and Popes with you
authoritie to Peter in some sort Yet this is a notable difference betweene them and well worth the marking that S. Paule was the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles but Peter the Apostle both of Gentiles and of Iewes Which because we loue not to speake without Doctors you may read in S. Ambrose in his CoÌ„mentaries on this place He that wrought by Peter in the Apostleship of circumcision wrought by me also towardes the Gentiles He nameth Peter alone saith he and compareth him vnto himselfe because he had receiued the primacie to build the Church that himselfe likewise is chosen to haue the primacie of building the Churches of the Gentiles Yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also These are S. Ambrose his wordes Rainoldes Haue you read these words your selfe in S. Ambrose or do you take them vp on credit Hart. What if my selfe haue read them Rainoldes Then shall I thinke worse of you then I haue done For I haue thought you to erre of simplicitie But I smell somewhat else here Hart. In déede I reade them not my selfe in S. Ambrose but in D. Stapleton who citeth them as I do Rainoldes Then you may learne the precept of a wittie Poet Be sober and distrustfull these are the ioyntes of wisedome For this which you haue taken of D. Stapletons credit is clipped fowly clipped If he should deale so with the Princes coine I know what iudgement he should haue The wordes of Ambrose are Ita tamen vt Petrus gentibus praedicaret si causa fuisset Paulus Iudaeis yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also if it were needfull and Paule to the Iewes D. Stapleton citeth them Ita tamen vt Peâ—rus gentibus praedicaret Haec ille Yet so that Peter preached to the Gentiles also Thus saith Ambrose See you not how hansomely he hath clipped-of the last words of Ambrose Paulus Iudaeis and Paule to the Iewes to proue that Paule might not preach vnto the Iewes as Peter might vnto the Gentiles Yet this is D. Stapleton whose Treatise of the Church some of our English Studentes and young seduced gentlemen thinke to be a treasure of great truth and wisedome But God wil make the falsehood and folly thereof euident to all men at his good time For this present point that Paule was an Apostle and teacher of the Iewes and the Gentiles both as well as Peter was and therfore not inferior to him in this respect the Scripture is so cléere that no mist of Stapletons though it were as thicke as the darkenes of Egipt can take away the light of it The wordes of Christ proue it spoken touching Paule vnto Ananias He is a chosen vessell to me to beare my name before the Gentiles and kinges and the children of Israel The commission by Ananias sent vnto Paule The God of our Fathers hath appointed thee that thou shouldest know his will and see that Iust one and heare the voice of his mouth For thou shalt bee his witnesse vnto all men of the thinges which thou hast seene and heard Paules obedience to his calling and performance of his duetie He preached Christ in the Synagogues he confounded the Iewes he spake and disputed with the Graecians Iewes by religion although not by parentage to be short when he was sent by speciall commission of the holy Ghost for the worke whereunto God had called him and Barnabas they preached the worde of God in the Synagogues of the Iewes through diuers cities and countries vntill that when the Iewes did stubbernely resist the truth which they preached they said boldly to them It was necessarie that the word of God should haue bene first spoken vnto you but seeing you put it from you and iudge your selues vnworthie of euerlasting life lo we turne to the Gentiles Wherefore as Peter preached the Gospell both to Iewes and Gentiles so did also Paule As God did choose Peter that the Gentiles by his mouth should heare the word of the Gospell so did he choose Paule Hart. Why dooth Paule then call himselfe the Apostle and teacher of the Gentiles and that in sundry places Rainoldes Because that when he and Peter perceiued that God did blesse the labours of the one of them amongst the Iewes chiefly of the other amongst the Gentiles they agreed togither and gaue the right handes of fellowship each to other that Paule should preach vnto the Gentiles Peter to the Iewes not so but that either if occasion serued might and did preach to either as Ambrose noted well and it is written of Paul namely but that they should specially teach the one the Iewes the other the Gentiles as their epistles shew they did Thus if you regard that which they did chiefly Peter was an Apostle and teacher of the Iewes Paule of the Gentiles If that which they might doo and did by occasion they were the Apostles and teachers both of both and so no difference betwéene them Hart. We graunt that there was no difference betwéene them in the office of the Apostleship for therein was Paule equall vnto Peter Rainoldes He that granteth this would sée if he had eyes that he must grant the other which he hath denied For if equall in the office of the Apostleship then equall in the charge of preaching to all nations And if in the charge of preaching to all nations then both to Iewes and Gentiles Hart. It is true to both But so that S. Peter was chiefe Apostle to them both and the supreme head to rule as well S. Paule as the rest of the Apostles Rainoldes I haue proued that Peter had no such headship ouer them You barely say the contrary and repeat it still This is a fault in reasoning condemned of the Logicians by the name of begging that which is in controuersie I pray vse it not but either proue that you say or hold your peace and cease to say it Hart. I will proue it by the circumstances of the words of Christ saying vnto Peter Doost thou loue me more then these Feede my lambes Doost thou loue me Feede my sheepe Doost thou loue me Feede my sheepe Wherein sundry principall pointes are to be noted First he requireth of him an open profession and testimonie of his loue to this intent that he may put him in trust with his flocke Secondly he requireth not onely that he loue him but also that he loue him more then the rest that to him as louing him more then the rest he may giue power aboue the rest Thirdly he asketh him thrise if he loue him and the former times with the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the last with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which noteth feruent loue With the which worde also Peter had answered him still Fourthly he saith vnto him thrise also feede And to passe ouer the sheepe and the lambes whereof
I spake before fiftly the first charge of feeding the lambes the last of the shéepe are vttered with the Gréeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is feede the second of the shéepe hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is rule to shew that the lambes euen lay-men as I said are onely to be fedde but the sheepe I meane Bishops and Pastors are both to be fedde and to be ruled of Peter Sixtly the worde to feede hath a great force and signifieth a power most full and absolute as the which implieth all other actions of ecclesiasticall regiment For they are all directed to the food of soules There are obserued more such notes to like effect but either not so pithie and sound as these are or treated of alreadie Wherefore I content my selfe with these sixe Which if you lay togither and marke what may be saide in seuerall for each of them you haue inough to proue a great worthines of Peter in any mans iudgement in ours a supremacy Rainoldes That which is written in the Prouerbes of Salomon Hee that wringeth his nose causeth blood to come out may be truely saide of the proofes which you presse out of these circumstances The most pithie of them if any of them haue pith are they which touch the matter the question of loue required the charge enioyned of feeding and each of them repeated thrise Which all in verie truth as Christ did vse them to Peter were rather a stay of his weakenesse then a marke of his worthinesse much lesse a proofe of his supremacy For Peter had pretended greater loue to Christ then had the rest of the Apostles In so much that when Christ had told them of their frailtie the night before his passion All ye wil be offended at me this night for it is written I will smite the shepheard and the sheepe shal be scattered Peter answering said vnto him though al should be offended at thee yet will I neuer be offended Whereto when Christ replied verily I say vnto thee this night before the cocke crow thou wilt denie me thrise Peter answered him againe though I should dye with thee yet will I not denie thee This promise as it was made by all the Apostles but chiefely by Peter so was it broken by them all but chiefely by him For they did all forsake Christ Peter did not only forsake him but forsweare him too Wherefore when our Sauiour after his resurrection would gather them togither to confirme them from their feare and giue them power to preach the Gospell to all Nations he that in comforting them all before his passion remembred Peter chiefely as néeding it most but I haue praied for thee did then in sending for them to méete him in Galile remember Peter namely by the voice of his Angell saying to the women tell his disciples and Peter that he wil go before you into Galile Peter a disciple yet named beside the disciples as who might thinke him selfe not worthy of the name of a disciple that had denied his Maister thrise Now when they were come to him into Galile and had receiued common both comfort and commission to execute the charge whereto they were chosen Christ admonished Peter particularly of his duetie and moued him beside the rest to do it faithfully as he particularly before had betraied it and had behaued him selfe most fearefully aboue the rest To encourage him therefore with assuring his conscience of the forgiuenes of his sinne and strengtheÌ„ him to constancie that he offend no more sâ— Christ demaundeth of him whether he loue him and thereupon chargeth him to feede his lambes and sheepe In demaunding of him doost thou loue me more then these first he toucheth his faulte who had professed more then these but had performed lesse then these Then he sheweth that it is pardoned For hee who loueth more to him more is forgiueÌ„ his greater loue is a token of it In charging him to feede his lambes and his sheepe he sharpneth his care that now he be faithfull and firme in following Christ though he shall come to daunger yea to death therby Both which the demaund and charge are thrise repeated the demaund that Peter by his threefold answere may counteruaile his threefold denial of Christ the charge because that nailes the oftner they are strooken the déeper they do pearce To write the same to Christians it greeueth not our Apostle it is a safe thing for vs. And although the truth of this exposition be very apparant by conference of Scriptures yet that you may take it with the better appetite who loue not to eate meate without this sauce you may know that I finde it for the chiefest pointes which touch the matter néerest in Cyril Austin Ambrose and other auncient Fathers Wherefore your pithiest notes out of the circumstances of the text haue colour of some proofe for Peters infirmitie but nought for his Supremacie As for the other three which you picke out of the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and to feede they haue no pith at all they are as bones without marrow If this be the fruit of the studie of the toongs renued in your Seminaries that by shew thereof you may out face the Protestantes who by helpe therof haue ridde your filth out of the church then your tongues will proue as good as the miracles which Iannes wrought and Iambres to harden Pharaos hart by doing like as Moses did You cast vs in the téeth with a kingdome of Grammarians but you would raise a Popedome of theÌ„ And as Erasmus saith that Schoolemen speaking barbarously saide it was not meete for the maiestie of diuinitie that it should be bound to keepe the lawes of Grammarians so the Popedome of Grammarians dealing too too Pope-like in expounding of wordes as Popes do full oft in dispensing with thinges will not haue them bound to the Grammaticall sense wherein their authors vse them But if we may obtaine that iustice be ministred according to the ciuill lawes of our kingdome then shall the poore wordes which your Popedome forceth to speake for the Papacye that which they neuer meant be rescued from that iniurie For the Scripture sheweth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signyfyeth as feruent loue as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in deede the verye same chyefeâ—y in S. Iohn who declaring the perfit and entire loue of God towardes Christ of Christ towardes him one where expresseth it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other wher by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yea by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more oft then by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So that if the wordes had any difference in sense it would be verie likely that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rather the more significant of the two sith it is vsed also commonly to note the loue which the Lord doth beare towardes vs and we should beare one to an other and
For the Syriake translation which your selfe alleaged to proue that the Gréeke wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though different in sound yet are one in sense because our Sauiour spake in the Syriake toong and in the Syriake both are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expresseth here also the two sundry Gréeke words by one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as if that our Sauiour had vsed the same word and meant the same thing in both Which interpretation should bée of greater credit with you in this point then it was in that because your authenticall Latin translation which there dissented from it agreeth with it here expressing likewise both by pasce Unlesse you will say that your authenticall Latin doth not expresse fully the meaning of the Gréeke Hart. A translation cannot expresse the force alwayes of wordes in the originall as in Ecclesiasticus it is obserued of the Hebrue Rainoldes You say true How much the more were they to blame who decréed that a translation should be accounted as authenticall in all Diuinitie-exercises and no man vnder any pretense to reiect it But if there had bene such force and importance in the Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your Latin translator could haue expressed it easily For otherwhere he doth translate it to rule and that being spoken of meaner Pastors then Peter euen of the Bishops of Ephesus Which bewrayeth further the séely state of your proofe grounded on the worde For if Peter were ordeined supreme head because he was willed to rule the sheepe or lambes what headship may the Bishoppes of Ephesus claime who were made ouerseers to rule the church of God that is both lambes and shéepe But your last proofe vpon the word to feede which signifieth you say a power most full and absolute is most out of square and neither agreeth with your selues nor with truth and reason For you said that lambes are onely fedde of Peter sheepe both fedde and ruled Which is fond if to rule be no more then to feede fonder if to feede imply a power most full and absolute Beside that to feede is to nourish Christians with milke or strong meate according to their state as they are either lambes or sheepe Wherefore if that import the fulnesse of power which no man hath but one to wéete the supreme head how great is your crueltie to the church of Christ who leaue but one Pastor throughout all the earth to preach the word of God vnto it Or if you leaue more grant that seuerall Churches shall haue their seuerall Pastors after the ordinance of God how great is your folly who graunting vs so many Pastors feeders yet say that one alone hath the charge to feede and that importeth a supremacy For if euery Pastor haue charge to feede his flocke and to feede implieth a fulnesse of power peculiar to the supreme head then by your reason euerie Pastor in his church euery feeder in his flocke is a supreme head no lesse then Peter was amongst the Apostles Nay Peter was not so by your reason neither For if to feede doo signifie a power most absolute and full as you say it doth and that power was giuen to all the Apostles as you confesse too it followeth by your owne confession and saying that all the Apostles had that charge to feede If all they had that charge to feede maketh nothing for Peters Supremacie Wherefore this and other of the like knottes which Stapleton hath sought and â—ound out in bulrushes they did not grow in them by the workmanship of the Creator man hath made them and God will loose them Hart. This which you haue said might séeme to be some what towardes the loosing of them if the scripture gaue not very cléere euidence for proofe of his Supremacie as well elsewhere as here For Christ said to Peter Simon Simon behold Satan hath desired you to winow you as wheate But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not And thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren Rainoldes Will you be drawing still of blood for what doth eyther Christes prayer for Peter or the charge giuen him to strengthen his brethren say more for his supremacie then the question dost thou loue me or the charge feede my sheepe vnlesse you presse violently the wordes beyond their sense as your Schoole-diuines in their captious syllogismes or rather sophismes vse to doo Hart. Such dregges as our Canus termeth them of sophismes brought into the Schoole by men who were vnworthely named Schoole-diuines are reproued by vs as well as by you But the wordes of Christ doo speake enough for Peters prerogatiue without violence For they commande him to strengthen his brethren And his brethen were the rest of the Apostles They commaunde him therefore to strengthen the Apostles If to strengthen the Apostles then must he be their supreme head Wherefore the wordes of Christ proue the supremacie of Peter Rainoldes And thinke you that Christ meant the rest of the Apostles when he saide thy brethren Hart. Whom should hee meane if not them Rainoldes All the faithfull as I thinke For they haue all one Father the same that Peter hath and they are fellow heires of the grace of life with Peter and Peter himselfe strengthning them calleth them brethren So that in Peters iudgement Christ seemeth to haue meant by his brethren all the faithfull Pardon me if I be rather of his minde therein then of yours Hart. As who say we denyed that all the faithfull are meant by his brethren we teach the same also Yet that is true that I saide For I trust the Apostles are in the number of the faithfull Rainoldes They are so But then your reason of brethren hath no more force then had the other of sheepe Nay it hath lesse For what is to strengthen Hart. To strengthen is to stay them vp who do stand For the function of preaching which through the grace of God ingendreth faith in men hath two speciall partes to teach and to strengthen or as S. Paule speaketh to plant and to water To teach and to plant is to conuert men vnto the faith of Christ and to ingraffe them into him To strengthen and to water is to vphold them which are already faithfull that they may perseuere in it Rainoldes Then is the charge lesser to strenghthen the brethren then to feede the sheepe For to feede is as much as to preach the word of God And to preach hath two dueties to raise vp them that are fallen to strengthen them that do stand Wherefore if the supremacie were not giuen Peter by the charge to feede the sheepe much lesse can it be giuen by a part of that charge to strengthen the brethren For as Peter ought that duetie to his brethren so did his brethren to him and Paule performed it so did
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
know that the misticall senses of the scripture are of no strength to conuince an aduersarie But the literall sense of that which I alleaged doth proue the point in question For there lyeth often times within the literall an other sense hidden which is not directly vttered and plainely but is gathered and inferred by the force of argument As for example God said to comfort Moses and the Israelites I am the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob These wordes in the first sense doo signifie the couenant that God made with Abraham and with Abrahams seede whom hée chose to be his seruants and promised he would bée their God But Christ alleageth them to proue against the Sadduces the resurrectioÌ„ of the dead Which he doth conclude by consequeÌ„ce of reason God is not the God of the dead but of the liuing He is the God of Abraham Therefore Abraham is not dead Abraham is a man consisting of two partes the soule and the bodie If Abraham then liue and yet his bodie be dead his bodie must rise againe to the end that God may iustly be called the God not of Abrahams soule but of Abraham Wherefore in that God is called the God of Abraham it followeth by discourse that the bodies of men shall bée raysed from death to life Is not this reason conteined in the literall sense of the scripture from which it is deduced Rainoldes Yes and is of force to proue the point in controuersie For whatsoeuer followeth necessarily of the literall sense that is as true and sound as the sense whereof it followeth But how will you gather so the Popes supremacie from the place in Deuteronomie Hart. By a reason which I ground vpon the likenes and proportion of the Church of Christ to the children of Israell For if the Israelites had a high Priest to be their iudge in matters of difficultie and doubt betweene blood and blood betweene cause cause betweene plague and plague why should not we semblably haue a hie Priest to bée the iudge in our causes Rainoldes This reasoÌ„ is drawn from a similitude that as it was amongst the Iewes in the olde Testament so must it bée amongst Christians in the new Logicians say that similitudes do halt of one foote But this doth halt of both For neither was the high Priest amongst the Iewes iudge of all those matters nether doth it follow thereof although he had béene that amongst Christians there must a high priest bée likewise iudge of all Els it must be lawfull for all your priestes to marry For it was so amongst the Iewes And Masse must be be saide no where but at Rome For the Iewes might not sacrifice but in the place which the Lord had chosen And all the males amongst the Iewes must goe thither euery yeare thrise Which were ouermuch for all your males to Rome Yet must they doo it by your reason For it is written in Deuteronomie And because Deuteronomie is the second law by interpretation the force of the word proueth that what is there decreed ought to be obserued in the new Testament saith Pope Innocentius Hart. The condicion of Christians is not in all respectes like vnto the Iewes nor Rome vnto Ierusalem And why it is not like in the matters which you mention there may bée reasons giuen Rainoldes May there be reasons giuen Then reasons may be giuen why your reason is naught But that you may sée what a lame thing it is marke the pointes whereon it standeth First the high Priest you say is the iudge to whom for the deciding of hard and doubtfull controuersies the Lord doth send the Iewes This the scripture saith not but maketh a difference betwéene the iudge and the Priest For it giueth sentence of death vpon him who refuseth to harken to the Priest or to the iudge Wherein by disioyning the Priest from the iudge it declareth plainely that the Priest was not the same that the iudge Hart. Our commoÌ„ editioÌ„ in Latin doth not reade it so but in this sort he that shal presumptuously refuse to obey the coÌ„mandement of the Priest by the decree of the iudge shall that man die You sée it is here the commandement of the Priest the decree of the iudge is an other point It is not as you cite it the Priest or the iudge Rainoldes It is not so in your Latin which man hath translated But it is so in the Hebrew writen by the Spirite of God Hart. But we haue a decree of the Councell of Trent that our old and common edition in Latin shall be taken as authenticall in publike lectures disputations sermons and expositions and that no man may dare or presume to reiect it vnder any pretense If no man may reiect it vnder anye pretense then not vnder pretense of the Hebrew text And that for great reason For the Hebrewe Bibles which are extant now are shamefully corrupted in many places by the Iewes of spite and malice against Christians as Bishop Lindan sheweth largely and learnedly in the defense of that decrée of the TreÌ„t-councell Rainoldes This is a shamefull sclaunder brewed by Satan and set a broch by Lindan to the intent that errours which haue preuailed in Poperie either by the faulte of the Latin translator or by the ouer sighte of them who haue mistaken him should not be discouered and put to shame by the light of the Hebrew truth And this shall appeere by his arguments and dealings if you will sift them in particular If in generall onely you meane to vse his name to discredite the truth as your Doctor doth I will send both you and him for an answere to three of the learnedst and fittest iudges of this matter that your church hath euen Isaac Leuita Arias Montanus and Payua Andradius Of whom the first being Lindans owne maister and professor of the Hebrue tongue in the vniuersitie of Coolen hath writen three bookes in defense of the Hebrew truth against the cauils of his scholler The next for his rare skill of tongues and artes was put in trust by king Philip to set forth the Bible in Hebrew Chaldee Greeke and Latin wherein he hath reproued that treatise of Lindan and disclosed his folly The last was the chiefest of the Diuines and Doctors at the Councell of Trent The decrées wherof though he haue defended and namely that which you mention yet not so but he hath withall conâ—uted them who say that the Iewes haue corrupted the Hebrew text Your cause M. Hart beginneth to be desperate when it can finde no coouert but such as your owne patrones are ashamed off Hart. I haue not read thâ—se mens discourses But certainely what soeuer they say for the rest neither they nor you shall be euer able to proue that the Iewes haue not corrupted the Hebrew tâ—xt in the one and twentéeth Psalme or
by him selfe because it is his duetie Rainoldes Nay if he be sicke it is his duetie then not to preach by him selfe God hath layed an other duetie vpon him to looke to his health that he may do his former duetie or if his appointed time be fulfilled to thinke vpon a higher duetie But by this reason no Christian is bound to come to Church by him selfe For he is not bound if he be sicke extremely Neither hath the Pope néede to preach by others For if he be sicke that hee cannot preach he is discharged before God yea although no other doo preach in his stéede Hart. But it is better yet if he supplie his roome by others Rainoldes Be it better What then Hart. If sickenes maye excuse him then imprisonment may Rainoldes And banishment and death and whatsoeuer difficultie whereby God depriueth him of power to preach What then Hart. And why may not then the great affaires of the Churches state excuse him too Rainoldes What els As Pope Iulius that he may lye in campe to beate Mirandula to the ground that he may recouer Rauenna and Ceruia that he may conquer Placentia and Parma that he may raise England and Spaine against Fraunce Fraunce and Germanie against Venice Venice and Rome against Genua them both and others against Ferrara Italie against it selfe the Swizzers against all sauing that the Swizzers plaid the Swizzers with him that is for lacke of pay and foode they forsooke him Hart. You take a delight in discouering still the frailties of the Popes as cursed Cham did the priuities of his father Noe. The great affaires that I meant of the Churches state are the affaires of religion gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome whereof the charge belongeth vnto them by duetie and doth greatly busie them Rainoldes How farre I am from Cham and your Pope from Noe I could declare easily if it perteined to my purpose But I am the willinger to beare this reproch because when S. Bernard reproued the corruptions of the Court of Rome he did incurre it too and hath defended me against it For that which he said on lesser occasion I may more iustly say on greater I speake thinges naked nakedly neither discouer I priuie shame but open shamelessenes I reproue I would to God that these thinges were done priuately and in chambers I would that we alone had seene them and heard them I would that the Noes of our time had left vs some what whereby we might couer them in part Now when all men see that which is a common talke throughout the world shall we alone holde our peace My head is bruised round about the blood doth gush out on all sides and shall I thinke that I must couer it Whatsoeuer I lay thereon it will bee bloodied and it will turne to greater shame and confusion that I should seeke to couer that which cannot be couered These thinges S. Bernard wrote about the time of Pope Eugenius the third aboue foure hundred yeares agoe when Popes either had or made a semblaunce of more honestie What would he haue writen if he had liued since vnder Boniface the eighth or Vrban the sixth or Boniface the ninth or Iohn the three and twentéeth or Paule the second or Alexander the sixth or Leo the tenth or him of whom I talked last the warriour Iulius Wherefore if I should seeke to couer them now when in Bernards time they could not be couered the shame which he feared might fall vpon me and mine owne conscience would condemne me Looke you to it M. Hart who sooth vp those men of sinne in their iniquities and call their furies fraileties and make a Noe of a Nimrod and bring the fall of Saintes to excuse the wilfull outrages of théeues and robbers You say that you meant by the great affaires of the Churches state the affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome Whatsoeuer you meant that is the truth which I shewed by the affaires of Pope Iulius For in the Popes language the name of the Church doth signifie the Papacie that is the dominion and princehood of the Pope in things both temporal and spirituall So that when Iulius warred either to recouer or to enlarge the bounds of his dominion temporal then was he about the affaires of the Church And this is apparant by the Itaâ—ian historie writen of those affaires wherein Faenza and the cities which he requireth the Venetians to restore vnto him are called cities of the Church and when hee seazeth on them by force or composition they returne to the gouernment and obedience of the Church and if his martiall feates doo sticke in some distresse though thinges go hard quoth Iulius yet God will helpe his Church and the meanes by which the endes whereto he fighteth are inuested all with the Churches title the captaines of the Church and armies of the Church against the Churches enimies rebels to the Church the Churches horsemen the Churches footemen the Churches subiectes the Churches vasals in a word the thinges which the Pope possesseth they are the Churches state the Churches state is said to be in perill and daunger when he is like to lose somewhat he bindeth the Spanish king to finde him yearely three hundred men of armes to defend the Churches state hée sendeth word to sundry princes that the French king will bring a mightie host to oppresse the Churches state the French king offreth to the Emperour that he will helpe him by force of armes to get Rome and all the Churches state as belonging by right and reason to the Empire This is the state in deede about the affaires whereof the Popes are busied The affaires of religion and gouernment of the Church throughout all Christendome are but pretenses and pillars to support this state For as Bernard wrote of the Court of Rome that they who went thither to multiply their church-promotions should there finde fauorers of their lustes not that the Romanes care greatly how thinges go but because they greatly loue bribes and folow rewardes so men ofskill and iudgement who knewe the Popes thoroughly and faithfully set foorth their liues haue opened this secret and mysterie of their state as it hath béene menaged since it grewe to maiestie that they minde the propping of their owne kingdome while they pretend the worship of Christ as Herode did Pope Iulilius saith his storie did pretend godlinesse and zeale of religion but it was ambition that moued him to his warlike interprises When I name Pope Iulius I name him for example For he was neither first nor last of those Herodes But you may gesse the rest by one Hart. In déede they haue warred I graunt in time of néede and why should they not Though I will not defend ambition in anie of them But this I will defend that they might
it Beside that if Constantine had made this pretensed donation in déed yet cometh it short of that for proofe whereof you cite it to wéet that the temporall dominion of the Popes is much lesse now then it was almost thirteene hundred yeares since For the citie of Rome which in this donation is saide to haue béene giuen them is but a litle corner of their dominion now Hart. But if you ioyne thereto that which I added of S. Peters patrimonie belonging vnto them within two or thrée hundred yeares after Constantine it cometh home to the proofe of that which I purposed at least to the disproofe of that which your men auouch in their Centuries For although they say that this encrease of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregories time yet are they notably disproued by S. Gregorie himselfe in whose reigne as it may probably be thought the Churches possessions were more then they bée now at this present And this appeareth by sundrie of his epistles where hee maketh expresse mention of S. Peters patrimonie in Africke in Naples in Campania in Dalmatia in Fraunce in Italie in Sicilia in Sardinia and in many other countries Rainoldes You haue heard M. Hart of sir Thomas More and perhaps you haue read the historie writen by him of king Richard the third Hart. A worthie worke of a worthieman Who if he had gone through in like sorte with all our English historie we might compare with Greekes or Romans But what of that historie Rainoldes In it he reporteth that Richard was a tyrant and did vsurpe the regall dignitie vpon him selfe defrauding Prince Edward whose it was by right Doth sir Thomas More say true in this of Richard or doth he misreport him Hart. True out of question as it is apparant by all our historians who consent therein Rainoldes Yet there is a writer who saith that king Richard did not vsurpe the crowne And for proofe thereof hee bringeth forth sundrie old recordes and euidences of the house of Yorke by which it is shewed that Richard had landes in Calice in Canterburie in Kent in Northumberland in Ireland in England in Garnsey and in Iersey before Prince Edwardes time wherein â—ir Thomas More reporteth him to haue vsurped Hart. He might haue those landes while he was Duke of Glocester and not king of England Wherefore the writer who bringeth this to proue that he vsurped not the crowne disproueth not the historie of Sir Thomas More but bewrayeth his owne frowardnesse or follie Rainoldes You are the writer M. Hart. I shewed by the historie of Sigonius and others most worthie of credit that the Popes vsurped Rome and the dominion of the Roman Dukedom defrauding the Emperour of his right by treason You affirme the contrarie And for proofe thereof you alleage sundrie epistles of S. Gregorie whereby it appeareth that they had possessions in Afrike in Naples in Campania in Dalmatia in Fraunce in Italie in Sicilia and in Sardinia before the time wherein Sigonius declareth them to haue vsurped But as your selfe answered they might haue these possessions while they were Bishops and not Princes Wherefore in bringing this to proue that they vsurped not the Princedome so to terme it and temporall dominion of the Papall State you disproue not the historie of Sigonius and the rest but bewray your owne frowardnesse or follie Nay you bewray greater fautes of euil guilful dealing as you hâ—ndle it For whereas Sigonius the rest whom I cited to pâ—oue the Popes vsurping are of yâ— Popes religion therefore of greater credit against the Popes you say nought to them but name in their steed our autors of the Centuries Euen as if the writer whom I told you of being vrged with the credit of sir Thomas More and English historians should answere that although Funccius a German report in his Chronicle that Richard did vsurpe yet is he notably disproued by the euidences of the house of Yorke Againe where your conclusion ought to be resolute that the Churches possâ—ssions were more in S. Gregories time then they be now you say they were more as it may probably be thought To ouerbeare veritie with probabilitie the truth with likelihood of truth and leaue your selfe a lurking hole that although the thing be found to be false yet you may escape who vouch it not as true but probable Moreouer the time of Gregories being Bishop you terme it his reigne thereby to bréede opinion that he had the temporall dominion as they haue now Wherein that worde is vsed so much the more deceitfully because it prepareth a way to the mistaking of that which you alleage out of Gregories epistles touching S. Peters patrimonie For. S. Peters patrimonie doth signifie the temporall dominion of the Popes in that of Clemangis which you began your answere with And so by this reigne a man would take it here Whereas Gregorie meaneth the landes of the Church and Bishopricke of Rome by S. Peters patrimonie not the dominion temporall which they had not then But in these fautes you are the more excusable because you doo folow the footsteps of Genebrard whose Centurie-writers and perhaps and kingdome and sophistrie might bring you to them vnawares In the next your shame can no way be couered For whereas your lodesman hauing searched Gregories epistles of purpose for S. Peters patrimonie could finde it in no more places but in those which you rehearsed by name you thinking such flyes too small for the Pope doo adde with flat vntruth and many other countries beside that other countries is brought in so too as if Campania Naples and Italie were sundry countâ—ies where Naples is a towne Campania a shire of Italie And yet as though your dealing were sincere and sound you knit it vp thus that seeing for this which is the greatest part so good proofes may be made no doubt but the Popes can shew verie good euidence when neede shal require for sundry other verie great and large giftes which were bestowed vpon their See by diuers Princes many Nobles men and women The question is of the temporall dominion of the Popes The proofe you bring thereof from Constantine is forged from Gregorie is fond So that no part is proued yet much lesse the greatest The chiefest of the rest that Popes can shew for it is Pipines donation and the successours of Pipine In it I haue conuinced them also of vsurping who first did begge and take the territories and ditions which should haue béene restored to their old Lord the Emperour and afterwarde did vse their nâ—w Lord as a vasall and made themselues soueraines of that which was giuen them to hold in fée To be short the vanitie of this vaunt of euidence which the Popes can shew when neede shall require may be perceyued by Eugubinus their atturney generall and principall proctor in this cause Who being enflamed with a Popish deuotion to say the best that
it selfe must not be therfore thought vnlawfull nor was it vsurped because it was abused For Princes abuse their power oftentimes in oppressing their subiectes Yet you will not say that they vsurpe their Princely power Rainoldes Neither doo I say that the Pope vsurpeth his Bishoply power but the supremacie The vsurping whereof you go about to hide with the mist of abusing while you distinguish not betwéene a lawfull power vsed vnlawfully and an vnlawfull power King Edward the fourth did put to death Burdet a marchant of London for saying merily to his sonne that he would make him inheritour of the crowne misconstruing his wordes as though he had meant the crowne of the realme where he meant his house at the signe of the crowne Herein the king abused his power and not vsurped it because God had giuen him the sworde to execute iustice and iudgement on his subiect though he vsed it vnlawfully against an innocent But if he had executed a subiect of the Spanish kinges or had excommunicated his owne yea deseruing it this were an vsurped not an abused power because he did not beare the sworde ouer Spaine and the Church-censures belong to the Bishops charge not to the Princes In like sorte the Pope of Rome might remoue the Roman Emperour from the communion as Ambrose Bishop of Milan remoued Theodosius being of his charge in the Church of Milan Which if the Pope did vnlawfully and not as Ambrose he abused his power But if he presumed to excommunicate other kings or to depose the Roman Emperour the power that he practised therein was vnlawfull and he vsurped it Which example of his dealing with the ciuill state obserueth the tenour of the same disorder in the ecclesiasticall For if he laide handes rashly vpon a man whom he had right to ordeine his power was lawfull though abused But if he tooke vpon him the right of making Pastors or of giuing benefices and Bishoprickes through all the world hee did vsurpe vnlawfull power Wherefore sith the tyranny wherewith I charged him in spirituall things was of the supremacie ouer all Christendome not of Bishoply power ouer his owne diocese the power of spiritual rule which he practised ouer both the states ecclesiasticall and ciuill is not abused but vsurped Neither can you salue it with laying the blame on some of the predecessours as if the successours now were guiltlesse of it For though they doo not all commit the same excesse in the execution of their vsurped power yet they all maintaine the libertie of dooing it and doo it when they list As since Quéene Maries dayes one of your best Popes Pius the fifth hath shewed who hath excommunicated yea deposed also our gratious Quéene Elisabeth and reserued benefices dignities and Bishoprickes to his owne bestowing from them who should elect their pastours by right Of the which thinges sith he tooke vnlawful power in the one to depose Princes as your selfe haue told me that you are of opinion in the other the autour the good autour whom you praysed confirmeth that the Popes bestowing the Church-liuings so doo that they ought not your owne conscience M. Hart and your autours iudgement should moue you to confesse their supremacie in spirituall thinges to be vsurped no lesse then I haue shewed it to be in temporall But if perhaps you will not graunt so much yet suspending your sentence till the chapters folowing whereto you referre vs the third and last point that they erred in office is proued notwithstanding euen by that you graunt And therefore you say that onely this is it which you goe about to defend in them that because of Christes promise of building his church vpon that rocke and prayer also that their faith should not faile they neuer erred in iudgement or definitiue sentence Wherein being driuen by force of euident truth from your maine distinction that the Pope may erre in person not in office as a priuat man not as Pope you retire from all the wards of your castle into the celler as it were and say that in a corner of his office he neuer erred but otherwise in office and euery part thereof he hath Hart. Nay this was my meaning by that distinction at the first As you may perceiue by that I spake expresly of definitiue sentence and saide that he cannot erre iudicially Rainoldes Then your meaning was to put the coate of Hercules vpon a dwarfes bodie For the Popes office is a great deale larger then iudgement or definitiue sentence And when you saide withall that the Euangelistes and other penners of holy write for the execution of that function had the assistance of God and so farre could not erre possibly you séemed to insinuate that the Popes haue likewise the assistance of God for the execution of their function and can no more erre in discharging of it then could the Euangelists in writing of the Gospell But sith you sée now that in function and office they may be as false as the Gospell is true which in euery parte thereof I haue proued you shall sée as much in this remnant also of iudgement definitiue sentence vnlesse you shut your eies against the light of manifest proofe For what doo you meane by saying that the promise and prayer of Christ kéepeth them from erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence Doo you not meane that they cannot teach against the truth in a matter of faith because the Church of Christ shal be built vpon them their faith shall not faile that they may strengthen their brethren Hart. I meane as I declared that they cannot nor shal not euer iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshood or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courtes Councels decrées deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies doutes or questions of faith as shall bee proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren Rainoldes The issue of our conference shall trye that they haue erred thus in euery point of the Catholike faith wherein they teach against vs as euen in this first of their owne supremacie But I will shew presently that they haue doone it in such things as your selues confesse to be doctrines of falshood or heresie And that will I shew by the same autours or as good as them of whom you vouch so boldly that you are sure they doo maintaine this of the Popes not erring in iudgement or definitiue sentence no lesse then you do â—or Sigebert Martinus Polonus and Sigonius doo witneâ—â—â— that Pope Stephen the sixth decreed in a councel that they who were ordeined Bishops by Pope Formosus were not ordeined lawfully because the man was wicked by whom they were ordeined Hart. Pope Stephen did depriue them of their orders as Sigebert termeth it did vnordeine them who were ordeined by Formosus He
so then For though the Arian heresie did set vpon Liberius fiersly and ouerthrew him when he being weeried with the tediousnes of his banishment did subscribe to it yet sith he recouered himselfe from his fall and manfully withstood it afterwarde it cannot be saide to haue preuailed against him Whether it preuailed or no against Felix of whom some report that he was an Arian some that he communicated only with the Arians it is no matter to S. Austin who reckeneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops Wherein though your Genebrard doo dissent from him because Felix dyed a martyr as he saith citeth Sozomen to proue it but he belyeth Sozomen to infer on that lye that Peters chaire hath such a vertue that it could rather beare a martyr then an heretike or a Pope that fauoured heretikes yet others not séeing belike such a mystery in the death of Felix are of S. Austins minde euen your Onuphâ—ius also who neither doth acknowledge his Popedome nor his martyrdome Now the heresie of the Donatistes had lesse preuailed against them For as they had before withstood the Nouatians the coosin germans to the Donatists so did they withstand the Donatists them selues both by their communion with the Catholikes and by their doctrine And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chiefly when he commended their succession As it appeereth farther by a reply that hee made to a Donatists epistle where hauing reckened vp all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succéeded Peter to Anastasius liuing then he concludeth with these wordes in the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist Wherewithall ifwe consider how they maintained the truth against the heresies of Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Sabellius Macedonius Photinus Apollinaris and the rest of those miscreants who vndermined the foundation of the Christian faith the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the reason will be manifest why to moue the Donatists by the succession of the Bishops of Rome and their autoritie S. Austin gaue it this prayse that the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Hart. Well The succession then of the Roman Bishops is vsed by S. Austin for a certaine marke of the Catholike religion of the true Church and of the right faith Neither onely by S. Austin but by the rest of the Fathers too For Epiphanius alleageth it against the Carpocratians let no man maruaile saith he that we rehearse al thinges so exactly for that which is manifest in faith is thereby shewed And Tertullian hauing said of them selues in Afrike that they haue autority from the Church of Rome doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretikes And Irenaeus reckening vp all the Roman Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time doth adde that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolike faith to be of his side against the Valentinians And Optatus reckneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists As likewise S. Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time that he saith much more surely and to the soules health in deed Wherefore the Church of Rome and we who are of that Church haue an assured warrant that the faith which we professe is the true faith For we haue the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirtenth of our time which is an inuincible fort against all heretikes as the Fathers Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus Optatus and Austin testifie Rainoldes You will neuer leaue to daly with the Church of Rome as Tullie did with Maistresse Fabia The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proofe of the true faith for so it was in the time of Austin Epiphanius Optatus Tertullian Irenaeus twelue hundred yeares ago vpwarde Succession was a proofe of the true faith till Bishops who varied from the truth succéeded euen as sheepes clothing was a marke of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it But neither are true Prophets knowne now by shéepes clothing nor the true faith by succession The succession of Bishops was a proofe of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone but in all while they who succéeded the Apostles in place succéeded them in doctrine too kept that which Paule deliuered to Timothee Timothee to others But when rauening woolues were gotten into the roomes of pastours and that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus of your own selues there shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw disciples after them then succession ceased to be a proofe of true faith for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth but common to it with errour and so a marke of neither because a marke of both This difference of succession betwene the later age and the former the primitiue churches time and ours is manifest by the Fathers them selues whom you alleage For Irenaeus to beginne with the most auncient of them saith that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keepe and teach that doctrine which the Apostles deliuered Now it doth not so nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died Hath it Hart. Not in all Churches But in the Church of Rome it doth and hath and shall for euer Rainoldes But if you would say as much for al Churches you might proue it as wisely out of Irenaens as you doo for the Church of Rome Hart. I deny that For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians Rainoldes D. Stapleton told you so and you beleeued it I know not whether I should more pitie your credulitie or detest his impudencie who hath abused you with such lewde vntruthes and that against his owne knowledge vnlesse he knew not what he had writen himselfe For him selfe had cited the wordes of Irenaeus which auouch the contrarie to wéete we can recken them who were ordeined Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches their successours vntill our time who taught not any such thing and so foorth But for as much as it would be verie long to recken the successions of all Churches we declare the faith of the greatest the most auncient and famous Church of Rome Which faith hath continued vntill our time by the successions of Bishops And againe the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles and the auncient state of the Church in the whole world and the forme of Christes body according to the successions of Bishops vnto whom they did commit the Church which is in euery place which hath continued vntill our time being kept and so foorth By the which sentences it is plaine that Irenaeus although he recken not the successions of all Churches because it
Iewes whereas the Roman Church was a church of the Gentiles Wherefore neither Gregorie did purpose to proue the supremacie of the Pope by Christes wordes to Peter neither did Christ meane the Church of Rome specially but generally the Catholike Church euen all the chosen when he said of his Church that the gates of hell should not preuaile against it And if as one appealed from king Philip to king Philip from Philip halfe asléepe to Philip wel awaked so I may appeale from Gregorie to Gregorie from Gregorie somewhat troubled to Gregorie aduised better himselfe will by and by giue iudgement of my side For in the same treatise he doth a litle after alleage the place rightly and expound it soundly of them alone and all them who are built on Christ firmely and faithfully and nothing shall remoue them from him Which to be the natural sense of Christes wordes it is apparant to the eye For the gates of hell preuaile against them who are adiudged to death eternal But hypocrites and euill seruants are adiudged to it The gates of hell therefore preuaile against such Now such haue béene and may be the members yea the heads of the Church of Rome Then our Sauiour meant not that priuilege to them Onely against the chosen and elect of God the gates of hell preuaile not For whom he hath predestinate them hath he also glorified Wherefore it is the Church of Gods elect and chosen to whom our Sauiour meant it And them he doth call in this place my Church as in an other afterward to like effect my sheepe So what he meant there by saying of his sheepe to them I giue eternal life and they shal neuer perish the same he meant here by saying of his Church against it the gates of hel shall not preuaile Which thing is so cléere out of all controuersie that to passe ouer Theophylact and Origen of whom the one writeth that euery man established in the faith of Christ is meant by the Church the gates of hell shal not preuaile against him the other that these gates preuaile against all who are not of the Church and he is neither the Church nor any part therof whom they preuaile against Lira the meanest of a great many doth thus expound the place that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church by subuerting it from the true faith Whereby saith he it is plaine that the Church consisteth not of men in respect of honour or power ecclesiasticall or ciuill for many Princes and Popes haue beene found to haue reuolted from the faith but the Church consisteth of them in whom there is true knowlege and profession of the faith and truth Hart. Howsoeuer Gregorie did either mistake the words of the scripture or not apply them perhaps to the supremacie yet is the supremacie proued by that title which he giueth the Church of Rome For if the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops Rainoldes What force this reason hath we shall see anone But first I must conclude that it is not proued by the holy scriptures neither by these which you haue alleaged out of the Fathers nor by any other that you can alleage And this hath heretofore bene the opinion of learned men amongst your selues as i◠appéereth by your Canus Who hauing examined the point with greater iudgement then Stapletons are wont doth graunt that it is not writen in the scriptures that the Pope succeedeth Peter in the supremacie But that which in Canus might perhaps haue séemed one Doctors priuate fansy doth séeme to bée now resolued on by more and is taught publikely For your Roman reader the Iesuit Father Robert in his lectures of the Pope which for their excellencie are set downe in writing and sent abroad as great iewels doth not onely teach the same but also proue it And whereas Canus thought that to conuey Peters right vnto the Pope the stories haue sufficient ground which say that Peter set his chaire at Rome and there died or if learned men shall not allow of that an other ground may be that the Church receiued it though not by scripture yet by tradition Father Robert putting the matter out of controuersie defineth that in déede it is a tradition not of Christ but of the Apostles and least we should doubt of which of the Apostles he nameth the man Peter euen a tradition of Peter Let me intreate you M. Hart if all that I haue said cannot preuaile with you yet to regard the doctrine the doctrine taught at Rome of your owne of the chiefest of your owne Doctors Renounce the vnlearned folies of your Stapleton brainsicke furies of your Rhemists who with desperate violence doo wrest the word of Christ to make it serue the pride of Antichrist Acknowlege that you haue not one text through all the scripture to proue the Popes supremacie that when you tell men of Thou art Peter and on this rocke I haue prayed for the Peter and Peter feede my sheepe you do presume of their simplicitie that in truth these places doo not import it but policie would haue somewhat saide eis not so many would beleeue it finally that the Papacie is a deuise of Popes and Papists for which sith the scriptures can be abused no longer because men haue espied the fraude therefore a new cloake is found for it now and hereafter it shall be counted a tradition of Peter The eighth chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may be iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 neither the auncient Bishops of Rome themselues 6 nor any other Fathers do proue the Popes supremacie HART You labour in vaine if you go about to perswade me that the Popes supremacie can not be proued by scripture And what iniurious dealing is this to bring our owne men Canus and Father Robert for the proofe thereof as though the greatest fauourers of vs were against vs. Rainoldes The scholer is not aboue his maister nor the seruant aboue his Lord. If Christ my Lord and maister were glad to labor in vaine why should I disdaine it Chiefly sith I may comfort my selfe as he did I haue laboured in vaine I haue spent my strength in vaine and for nothing but yet my duety is with the Lord and my worke with my God But what iniurious dealing is it if I indeuouring
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
Latin for the vulgar it is idiotae Which word if we should haue translated the idiot we should haue doon iniury to the common sort of rude vnlearned men whom it doth betoken as you must néedes acknowledge who translate it the vnlearned as wee doo the vulgar Rainoldes True But you may sée then how wise your Rhemists are who charge vs with notorious folly becauâ—e we giue the name of Priest to sacerdos and not to presbyter For as the name of idiot doth come from idiota but is taken for a foole so the name of Priest is deriued from presbyter but signifieth a sacrificer by custome of our English speech Wherefore if your reason doo proue that all Pastors of the Christian Church must be called Priestes and haue autoritie to sacrifice because they are presbyterâ— it will proue as well that all vnlearned Christians must be called idiotes and may be begged for fooles because they are idiotae Which if you dare not say of vnlearned Christians though in very truth you deale with them as idiotes when you make such reasons to approue your Masse Massing Priestes vnto them learne by discharging your selues in the one to cléere vs of notorious folly in the other For sith in translating thinges as you confesse the sense must bee kept and the sense of wordes is that which vsually men vnderstand by them and by the worde Priest men vnderstand sacerdos that is to say a man appointed to sacrifice it foloweth thereof that our translatours did their dutie in giuing the name of Priests to them onely to whom the Priestly function in scripture doth appropriate it As for your Rhemists who still doo translate sacerdos a Priest as graunting that we haue no other English woâ—d for it and yet translate presbyter by the same worde too they do ioyne together that which God hath seuered and the wordes which the holy Gost hath distinguished they wittingly confound Wherein they doo lewdly abuse the simple Christians who are vnskilful in the tongues to make them in loue with the whorish sacrifice of the idolatrous Masse and alienate their mindes from the true religion professed in the Church of England For the name of Priest as it hath relation to sacrifice is sacerdos which worde your Trent-fathers doo therefore vse in handling the sacrifice of the Masse Now because the name of sacerdos is not giuen to the Ministers of the gospell in the new testament your Rhemists make the name that is giuen them the same in English with sacerdos To the intent that the simple not seeing the sleight may conceiue thereby that ministers of the gospell are Priestes ordeined to sacrifice and so may loth our Ministers who neither doo sacrifice nor list to be called Priestes and may embrace your Priestes who professe them selues to be Priestes yea Masse priestes and are sent to sacrifice as it is shewed in your Apologie of the English Seminaries Hart. That learned Apology which D. Allen wrote in the defense of our Seminaries doth iustly blame your new pulpits the very chaires of the scorneful for calling vs by that terme merily or mockingly For the Church of God knoweth no other Priests neither hath Christ instituted any other order of Priests but of these whom contemptuously you doo call Masse-priests Rainoldes So D. Allen saith But he proueth neither Priestes nor Masse by scripture vnlesse the Masse be the chaire and the Priestes be the scornefull Hart. Though he alleage not the scripture there to proue them yet hath he done it other where as in his Latin treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse and in our Annotations on the testament in English wherein his hand was chiefest For Esay doth specially prophecy of the Priestes of the new testament as S. Ierom declareth vpon the same place in these words You shall be called the Priestes of God the Ministers of our God shall it be saide vnto you And as here the Ministers of God are called Priestes in that very terme which your selfe confesse hath a relation to sacrifice so that they did sacrifice you may perceiue too by the Actes of the Apostles where it is writen of Prophets and Doctors in the Church at Antioche that they were ministring to our Lord. For the Gréeke signifieth that they were sacrificing and so Erasmus translated Whereby it is meant that they did say Masse and the Gréeke Fathers hereof had their name Liturgie which Eraâ—mus translateth Masse saying Missa Chrysostomi Howbeit we translate it ministring and not sacrificing or saying Masse though wee might if we would as you doo boldly turne what text we list and flée from one language to another for the aduantage of our cause But we kéepe our text as the translatours of the scriptures should doo most religiously Rainoldes Your text then doth say that the Prophets Doctors at Antioche were ministring but you to proue the Masse doo reproue your text For if the Gréeke signifie that they were sacrificing and your text translated the Gréeke into Latin how did your text kéepe his text when he translated it not sacrificing but ministring Will you say that the autour of your old translation which onely is approued by your men as authenticall did not performe that dutie which the translators of the scriptures ought most religiously You doo so for aduantage But in this point you doo him iniurie For though the worde may by consequent import to sacrifice when sacrifice is a seruice pertaining vnto them whose ministerie it betokeneth as where it is spoken of Leuites and Priestes yet doth it properly signifie to minister either in publike function after the originall thereof or in any as magistrates are called the ministers of God and Angels are saide to be ministring spirits and the Gentiles are willed to minister vnto the Iewes in relieuing of their necessitie In so much that the learnedst of your owne translators Isidorus Clarius and Arias Montanus who both haue turned the new testament out of Gréeke into Latin the one approued by the Deputies of the Trent-councel the other by the Doctors of Louan doo both of them translate it in this very place of the Actes of the Apostles not sacrificing but ministring which their affection to the Masse would haue béene loth to doo vnlesse the truth had forced them to it How much the more shamefull is the demeanour of your Rhemists who where they carp vs as leauing the Greeke for the aduantage of our cause them selues for the aduantage of their owne cause doo clip the meaning of the Gréeke against I say not the iudgement of Grammarians euen such as seeke to helpe them most but against the common vse of it in scripture against their olde text against their new translations yea against their owne conscience as that which you alleaged out of the Prophet Esay where they haue Englished it
the Ministers doth shew And herein their dealing is so much the worse because they set it out with the name of Erasmus as if he meant by sacrificing the saying of Masse which is farre from him For although by reason he thought that the word doth properly signifie not simply to minister but to minister in holy thinges as they who serue in the Priesthood therfore he did translate it that the Prophets Doctours in the Church at Antioche were sacrificing to the Lord yet he saith that hereby is meant that they imployed their giftes to Gods glory and the saluation of the Church the Prophets in propheciing the Doctours in teaching the doctrine of the Gospell So he vnderstandeth nothing els by sacrificing then others doo by ministring or rather then the scripture doth as it is obserued out of the circumstances of the text by the best of your own interpreters Who séeing that the men were Prophets and Doctours which are said to haue béene ministring to the Lord thereupon do gather that they serued him in executing their owne ministerie that is to say the ministerie of prophecying and teaching In which sort the Gréeke fathers doo expound it also what meaneth the word ministring say they it meaneth preaching Wherefore if the name of Liturgie were taken hereof by the Gréeke fathers as your Rhemists adde it is a good hearing but so much the lesse will it proue your Masâ—e For if they vnderstood preaching by ministring when the worde is spoken of Prophets and Doctours it is the more likely that when they applyed it to the ministerie of the Pastours â— seruice of the Church they meant the publike prayers and other holy functions which we doo call Diuine seruice As in truth they did For that which we call euening prayer they called the euening Liturgie as you would say the seruice doon to God at euening and in the verie Liturgie that is called Chrysostomes because he made some part of it belike not all for himselfe therein is prayed too but in that very Liturgie the word is applied to the Churches seruice in the same maner as it is to the seruice which Angels doo to God And I hope you will not affirme that the Angels doo say Masse in heauen Wherefore howsoeuer Erasmus did translate it after the phrase of his time wherein the Churches seruice was commonly called Missa the ministerie mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles doth not proue that sacrifice of which you would inferre your Priesthood As for the place of Esay in which it is writen you shall be called the Priests of God the Ministers of our God shal it be said vnto you the course of the text doth seeme to meane by Priestes all the seruants of God whom Peter calleth an holy Priesthood to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. For the words are spoken as in Christes person to all the faithfull and repentant who should be trees of righteousnes to build vp the Church and thereupon are promised that their enimies shall serue them and they shall serue God But in an other place of Esay I graunt the name of Priest is giuen to Pastors and Elders where speaking of the calling and conuersion of the Gentiles And of them saith he will I take for Priests for Leuites saith the Lord. Hart. S. Ierom doth expound the former place of them also But all is one to my purpose For séeing that Pastours and Elders as you terme them are called Priests in scripture and the name of Priest implyeth you confesse autoritie to sacrifice it foloweth that Pastours and Elders are Priestes autorized to sacrifice Now the Priest that hath autoritie to sacrifice is he whom you do call a Masse-priest Wherefore both Masse and Priests are proued by the scripture Rainoldes Why Thinke you that euerie Christian man and woman is a Masse-priest because the name of Priests is giuen them by scripture in respect of spirituall sacrifices which they must offer vnto God Hart. No. Because the sacrifices that they must offer are spirituall and are called sacrifices by a borowed kinde of spéech and not properly But the sacrifice which is offered to God in the Masse is an external visible true and proper sacrifice as it is declared by the Councell of Trent So that the Priestes ordeined to offer this sacrifice are properly called Priestes wheras other Christians are called so improperly according to the nature of the sacrifices which they offer Rainoldes Then the name of Priestes alleaged out of Esay doth not proue your Masse-priestes For he doth call the Ministers of the gospell Priestes in respect of the spirituall sacrifices which they must offer And that appéereth by the words going next before in which the Lord declaring euen by S. Ieroms iudgement too that he would call the Iewes to the same honour that by the name of Priests is signified and they saith he shall bring the Gentiles for an offering to the Lord as the children of Israel offer in a cleane vessell in the house of the Lord. So to bring the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord is that for which they who do bring such offerings are named Priestes and Leuites But the offering vp of the Gentiles vnto him is a spirituall sacrifice made by the Ministers of Christ as Paule sheweth when they conuert the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospell The sacrifice therefore in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes by Esay is a spirituall sacrifice And as euerie faithfull person is a Priest because we must offer each his owne bodie a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God so that name is giuen to Ministers of the gospell because they are called to offer vp the bodies of other men in like sort Wherefore if priuate Christians are not Masse-priestes because their sacrifices are spirituall then sith the Ministers must offer vp the like sacrifices it foloweth by your answere that nether they are Masse-priestes Hart. The Ministers of the gospell must offer vp the like sacrifices I deny it not And in that respect it is true that nether they nor priuate Christians are proued to bee Masse-priestes But there is an other an externall sacrifice that Ministers must offer also euen that which our Lord in the prophet Malachie doth call a cleane oblation and saith that in euerie place it is sacrificed and offered to his name because his name is great among the Gentiles And that is the sacrifice in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes properly and are indéede Masse-priests For the cleane oblation is the sacrifice of the Masse wherein the body and blood of Christ is offered vp vnto God his father as the Councell sheweth an oblation that cannot be defiled by the vnworthines or wickednes of them who offer it Rainoldes What And be
to him in euery place For the former of them that spirituall sacrifices of prayers and workes are common to the Iewes with vs deceiueth with a fallacie because ouâ— spirituall are spirituall méerely whereas they had carnall sacrifices with their spirituall The later doth discouer this fraude of the former but with an other fraude For in that it saith that praying fasting and the workes of charity were ioyned to their sacrifices it sheweth that their worship though in part spiritual was not spiritual méerely But in that it gathereth thereof that these things cannot succeede their sacrifices there is an other fallacie because although the worship of God were still spirituall as hée is still a spirit and so no worship may succéede for how can a thing succéede it selfe yet the same in substance came foorth in sundry maners and so one maner of it might succéede an other As the word of God touching the saluation of men by faith in Christ was alwayes the same but vttered in sundry maners by the Prophets and by Christ. In which sort the worship of God was ordered also by the Prophets couertly vnder the vailes of ceremonies by Christ plainly and simply Wherefore as the doctrine of Christ did succéede the doctrine of the Prophets both the same doctrine but taught by Christ more cléerely more darkely by the Prophets so the spirituall worship of God in the Gospell succéeded his spirituall worship in the law both the same worship but laden with ceremonies shadows in the law disburdned of them in the Gospell Hart. I can not sée those fallacies which you charge D. Allen with For if the Iewes did offer prayers to God and other such spirituall sacrifices as they did then is it true as he saith that spirituall sacrifices are common vnto them with vs. And if they be common vnto them with vs it foloweth in my iudgement that ours succeede not theirs sith to succeede is to come after and how may that come after which did go before Rainoldes I haue shewed how And if you sée it not the vaile may be the cause which is very likely to be laide on your heart in reading of the new testament as it was on the heart of others in reading of the olde For the thing is plaine of it selfe and euident that the spirituall sacrifices which the Iewes offered as namely their prayers did not discharge their duetie but they must offer carnall also and that not euery where but in the place that God had chosen In so much that albeit they might pray in all places lawfully as wée may yet must they come thither to worship God at certaine times and Daniel though hée could not because of their captiuitie yet had his windowes open toward Ierusalem when hee praied and the faithfull wept by the riuers of Babylon how should we sing the lords song in a strange lande and the princely Prophet lamented that his banishment did keepe him from appeering there and longed to behold the power and glory of God as he beheld it in the sanctuary and being sicke as it were with the loue of his tabernacles yea fainting with desire of coming to his courts and altars he pronounced them blessed who dwell in that house yea who may come vnto it yea though they trauaile hardly thereto through drye places to present themselues before God in Sion Whereas Christians of the other side neither haue those altars or offerings made theron to ioyne with their spirituall sacrifice of prayse and they may sing the songs of the Lord in al places No land is strange no ground vnholy Euery coast is Iewry and euery towne Ierusalem and euery house Sion and euery faithfull company yea euery faithfull body a temple to serue God in The Christian worship then doth differ euen in prayers from that of the Iewes both in respect of the temple which they had a regard to and of the ceremonies of the law which they were bound therwith to keepe Wherfore as the ministery of the new testament that is of them who taught the gospell came after the ministerie of Priestes in the old and yet both old and new are the Lords testament so might and did the worship of God amongst Christians in spirit and truth come after the worship of God amongst the Iewes though yet they both did worship God spiritually For the Iewes before did worship in the temple with the ceremonies of the law as when the Priest was burning incense at the altar in the inner part therof the multitude of the people were praying in the outter And the Christians after did pray without incense in any place the people and Pastour all together as the Aposâ—les with the disciples and according to their instruction the primitiue Churches practise shew But these points of difference betweene vs and them be perhaps the harder for you to vnderstand because your Popish worship is so lyke the Iewish both for the temple and the ceremonies that you may iustly thinke their worship was in spirit and truth as much as yours For as the Priest with them was seuered from the people by the diuision of the sanctuarie and court of the temple so with you by the chancell and body of the church As with them he burned incense at the altar so with you he doth As with them he was clad in an Ephod a miter a broydered coate a girdle a brestplate and a robe and they who serued him were in their linen coates too so with you he must haue an amice an albe a girdle a fanel a chisible and a stole and they who are about him haue surplesses yea copes also Their Priestes had a lauer whereat they must wash before they sacrificed so haue yours Your vaile betweene the quire and the altar in lent resembleth theirs that seuered the holy place from the most holy Your pyx with the sacrament and their arke with the mercy seate your phylacterie with Saintes relikes and their pot with Manna your monstrancie with the host and their table with the shew-bread your holy oyle of balme and theirs of myrrhe with spices their purifying water made of the ashes of an heifer and yours of other ashes with water wine and salt their fyer sent from heauen and yours fetcht thence by art their rod of Aaron and your crosse of Christ finally your candles or tapers or torches and their candlesticke with lamps do match one an other in proportion of rites nay you surpasse them in your candles For theirs were lighted in the night yours in the day too Theirs in the temple onely yours abroad also Theirs before the Lord yours before images Theirs in one maner yours with great
varietie Theirs in small number yours at times and places as many as the sand of the sea And what should I speake of the rest of the things in which you do not onely folow their ceremonies but also go beyond them Your consecrating of Bishops of churches of altars of patens of chalices and other instruments of your Priesthood by anointing them according to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle Your shauing as of Leuites your imagery as from Salomon your halowing of men belles ashes boughes bread the paschal Lambe the paschal taper agnus-deis and what not with exorcized water wherwith almost all thinges are purged by your law as by theirs with blood Your purifying as they called it or as you terme it reconciling of a churchyard or other sacred place if it be polluted In conclusion to passe ouer your festiual daies exceeding theirs in shadowes your mysticall deuises in sacraments to their paterne your pontificall robes in figures incomparable in number double vnto theirs and infinite solemnities of your hiest Priest who entreth once a yeare into the place most holy as did the hye Priest of the Iewes your dayly sacrifice of the Masse though inferiour to theirs in that it is no burnt offering wherein yet I maruaile you came no néerer them for as they kept fyer on the altar alwaies so doo you require it and what should you haue fyer vpon your altar as they had vnlesse you burne as they did but your dayly sacrifice of the Masse is celebrated in such Leuitical sort as if you contended to set forth a Iewish worship more liuely then the Leuiticall Priests could In attire like them in mysteries aboue them in orders more exquisite in cauteles more diligent in furniture aboundantly in lifting vp the whole host and not as they a part of it in ringing of the sacring bell to counteruaile their trumpets in washing often in blessing and crossing in censing often in soft spéech and whispering in kissing of the amice kissing of the fanel kissing of the stole kissing of the altar kissing of the booke kissing of the Priests hand and kissing of the pax in smiting and knocking in gesturing by rule and measure in bowing and ducking in spacing forward backward and turning round about and trauersing of the ground beside the swéete musicke of organs and so forth where it may be had as in the temple it might I dout not M. Hart but you are perswaded that this kind of seruice in your Church is Christian and such that if our selues were present at the doing the solemne doing of it specially atChristmas Easter and such other more festiual times the most of our stonie hartes would melt for ioy as your Bristow writeth But in verie truth it is more then Iewish and his conceit thereof is childish and carnal For although it might be delitefull to the flesh the eies with galant sightes the eares with pleasant soundes the nose with fragrant sauours the minde with shew of godlines to him that doth not vnderstand yet a spiritual man would be grieued at it as Paule was in Athenes and lament that the people should doâ—te vpon that by which they are not edified and wéepe ouer them as Christ ouer Ierusalem O if thou hadst knowne at least in this thy day those things which belong vnto thy peace but now are they hidden from thine eyes The Lord take away this vaile from your heart if it be his good pleasure that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth and when you sée it doo it Hart. There is a vaile rather of presumption ouer your heart who coÌ„demne the Catholike ceremonies as Iewish then of ignorance ouer ours who embrace them as Christian. For the Councell of Trent which was gathered togither and guided by the holy Ghost hath accursed them who say that the receiued and approued rites of the Catholike Church vsed in the solemne ministring of sacraments may be despised And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Masse whereat your spite is greatest the holy Fathers of that Councell haue shewed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles not on the law of Moses For as much say they as the nature of men is such that it cannot be lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine things without outward helpes therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordeined certaine rites to weete that some things should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice and some things with a lowder Moreouer she hath vsed ceremonies too as namely mystical blessings lightes incense vestiments and many other such things by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles to the ende that both the maiestie of so great a sacrifice might be set forth and the minds of the faithful might be raised vp by these visible signes of religion and godlines to the contemplation of most high things which doo lye hidden in this sacrifice These are the Councels words Whereby you may perceiue that the rites and ceremonies vsed at the Masse are not Iewish but Apostolike as if neede were it might be shewed in particulars of incense by S. Denys of lightes by S. Austin of the rest by other Fathers Rainoldes What of the vestiments too fanel amice albe stole and such trinkets Hart. I euen of them too as basely and scornfully as you speake of them Nor yet are these of ours like in all respectes to those which the Priestes did weare amongst the Iewes From whome in other pointes our ceremonies differ also As for example their incense was a perfume most pretious ours is simple frankincense Their lightes must be of pure oyle ours are of waxe and may bee of other stuffe indifferently Which sith it is likewise apparant in the rest as you must néedes confesse at least for sundrie of them you are to blame greatly to reproch the ceremonies of the Church as Iewish Rainoldes Nay you did mistake me if you thought I meant that they are all Iewish or Iewish absolutely For I must néedes confesse that some of them are Heathnish rather then Iewish As namely the shauing of your Priests crownes after the maner of Priestes of Isis in Egipt Your lighting of candels on Candlemas-day which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans Your painting or grauing of the images of men a thing that Christians tooke by custome of the Heathens Your censing of images and setting tapers before them as the Romans also did when they were Heathens To be short the whole substance of your image-worship your kyssing kneeling creeping to the image of the crosse like Sicilians to Hercules your images borne in procession like to the
and explane the scripture to the faithful people in their mother tongue In the Latin toong if they had willed them to to do it the order had agréed better with your doctrine the people would haue wondred at it Now the knowlege of it is like to breede contempt Beside there is danger least by hearing of it often times expounded men become to wise and smell out your abuses The lesse they doo know the fitter to be Papists For ignorance is the mother of Popish deuotion as knowlege is the nurse of Christian religion Hart. We acknowlege that ignorance is the mother of all errors neither do we séeke to noosell Christians in it but to weane them from it as those decrées of the Councell do sufficiently shew Rainoldes They shew sufficiently that you professe so but how well you séeke it the former decrées of the rites by which the people is nooseled in ignorance do more sufficiently shew Nether is it likely that all Pastours and Curates shall haue skil and leasure to expound the scripture to the people often It may be that the seruice read and heard in a knowen tongue would teach them more in a day then some of them will in a moonth Or if euerie Church had as good a Pastour as Paule wisheth Timothee to be that would diuide the word of truth a right yet they being vsed to heare the scripture read should vnderstand him better as the Iewes did Paule and be through Gods grace the readier to beleeue him And sith the Trent-fathers declare this expounding therefore to be néedefull least Christs sheepe be famished or the young children aske bread no man breake it to them it had béene their dutie withall to consider that God would haue the table of his children furnished with this bread plenteously and as Dauids table with a cup running ouer to kéepe them in good liking not onely that they be not famished At least howsoeuer they smooth their practise in this point it is sure that their reason is beside all reason when they say that because the nature of men doth neede outward helpes for raysing of it vp to think vpon the things of God therefore hath the Church ordeined those rites that some things in the Masse should be pronounced with a soft voice and some things with a lowder the one not to be heard the other not to be vnderstood And yet herein their dealing is the more plaine that they doo acknowlege the Church to haue ordained these rites For if they would haue hardned their faces and said that they receiued them from the Apostles by tradition they might as well haue said it and proued it as soundly as they doo of others lightes incense vestiments and all the rest of their beggerie Hart. Beggerie call you that which setteth foorth the blessed sacrifice of the Masse with so comely ceremonies to the consolation and instruction of the faithfull Rainoldes Nay the name of beggerie is to good for it For if S. Paule called the ceremonies of the Iewes weake and beggerly rudiments when they were matched with the gospel what name deserue yours ordeined not of God as theirs but of men Hart. You doo vs great iniurie to apply S. Paules words spoken of the Iewish ceremonies which should cease to ours which should continue Much more in that you say that God ordeined not ours as he did theirs For he ordeined theirs by Moses and ours by S. Paul Rainoldes By S. Paul Fye And who tolde you so Hart. S. Austin saith that all that order of doing which the whole Church obserueth through the world in consecrating offering and distributing of the Eucharist which order of dooing we doo call the Masse was ordeined by S. Paul Rainoldes Your Iesuit in déede maketh that note vpon S. Austin And if his meaning be thereby to proue onely so much of that order as the whole Church obserued through the world in S. Austins time then doth he disproue your ceremonies quite yea some what more then ceremonies For behold he mentioneth the distributing of the Eucharist that is of the bread and cuppe of thankes-giuing both the which you distribute not in any Masse in priuat Masses neither But if he meant as Bristow did and you would haue him that S. Paul ordeined al that order of dooing which your Church obserueth and calleth it the Masse your Councell doth disproue him For they confesse that the Church of Rome hath certaine rites neither ordeined by S. Paul nor obserued through the whole Church And S. Austin speaketh of nothing but that which the whole Church obserued as namely the receyuing of the Sacrament fasting which custome being kept alike of all Christians he gathereth on S. Pauls wordes to the Corinthians other thinges will I set in order when I come that he ordeined it Hart. It is true S. Austin doth speake of those rites which the whole Church obserued through the world without any change or diuersitie of maners But so much the more doth he proue the doctrine of the Councell of Trent For the rites which they say the Church hath receiued from the Apostles by tradition are namely mysticall blessinges lightes incense vestiments and many other such thinges And for these S. Austins witnesse is of force that S. Paul ordeinedal that order of dooing which we call the Masse For the proofe whereof you may sée a cléerer testimonie of his in an epistle to Paulinus quoted by Torrensis vpon the same place of S. Austins confession Rainoldes And in that also Torrensis doth 〈◊〉 you For S. Austin there writing to a Bishop who had inquired of him how those wordes differ one from an other in S. Paul supplications prayers intercessions and giuing of thankes doth tell him that he thinketh thereby is vnderstood that which all the church or in a maner all practiseth to weete that supplications are those which are made in celebrating of the sacramēts before that which is vpon the Lordes table beginne to bee blessed prayers when it is blessed and sanctified and prepared to be distributed and diuided intercessions when the people is blessed and offered to God by their Pastours as it were by aduocates which thinges being doon and the sacrament receyued the giuing of thankes doth knit vp all which S. Paul in those wordes remmbreth also last Now what is there here more for your Masse then for our Communion Or if our Communion which differeth from your Masse no lesse then light from darkenesse yet hath all these thinges which S. Austin toucheth as meant by S. Paul what face hath Torrensis who saith that S. Paul is auouched by S. Austin to haue ordeined all that order of dooing which you call the Masse Is this your Iesuites dealing with the auncient Fathers to make them fetch your Massing rites from the Apostles Hart Yet euen there S. Austin doth
that the Apostles did ordeine them Rainoldes That rule of S. Austin is probable not necessarie For though it be likely that there was no custome obserued by the Church through the whole world which it had not from the Apostles chiefly seeing Christians did vary then so much in rites of all sortes yet they might either haue taken vp or kept of that they had before some thing which the Apostles deliuered not vnto them But admit his rule as an vndouted principle to your most aduantage and yet are you no neerer the proofe of those ceremonies For how can you proue that incense lightes vestiments and the rest of your baggage were vsed at that time through the whole world Hart. Incense to haue béene vsed I haue proued by S. Denys Areopagita lightes by S. Austin Rainoldes But you haue not proued that they were vsed through the whole world either by S. Austin or by S. Denys Nay that Denys who so euer he were doth proue the contrarie For in his description of the Masse as you call it there are neither lightes nor vestiments nor crossinges nor all the other ceremonies whereby it is manifest that they were not vsed through the whole world when that Denys wrote As for incense howsoeuer it crept into that Church in the which he liued it appeereth by the writinges of Tertullian and Arnobius that the Church vsed it not in their dayes Neither is the censing which Denys speaketh of liker to yours then I shewed your blessinges are like to S. Austins For he hath it onely once aboute the Church But in your solemne Masse it is vsed often and to sundrie thinges to the crosse to relikes to images to candlestickes to the altar the lower part of it and the higher to the Priestes to the booke to the bread and wine thrise aboue the chalice and the host and thrise about them to the altar and the Priest againe and againe to the quire to the deacon to the subdeacon to the people and in Masses for the dead to the sacrament also at the time of the eleuation So that if the wordes of the Trent-councell be weighed with your practise you will léese the countenance of that which Denys sheweth to For with him it is incense in the singular number Your Masses and the Councell hauâ— incenses in the plurall By the which word if the Councell meant to note all the censinges that are vsed in Massing as they did of likelyhood then neither Denys maketh for your Massing-incense Though whatsoeuer he make he maketh nought for your reason because he proueth not that it was vsed through the whole world Now the lights which your Iesuite hath founde in S. Austin make lesse a greate deale for it For S. Austin calleth the lights which they vsed 1 lightes of the night because they did vse them in the night time when they met at prayers as Christians were wont But your Massing-lights are vsed in the day time when the sunne shineth a thing perhaps obserued through the whole world but of idolatrous Heathens not of the Church of Christ. Hart. Yes that Christian Churches had also lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine while the gospel was reading S. Ierom is a witnesse and before S. Ierom his Maister Nazianzen maketh mention of it and Athanasius before them both Wherefore out of dout it is an ancient custome and that very generall Rainoldes As you say if it be witnessed by these thrée Doctors S. Ierom of Europe Nazianzen of Asia Athanasius of Afrike But he who saith they witnesse it hath not read them I thinke Hart. But I thinke he hath or rather I am sure of it For D. Stapleton saith it in his comparison of the Catholike and Roman Churches Masse with the Lordes supper of the Protestants Wherin as he allegeth these Doctors for this point so he proueth all things which your Supper wanteth and our Masse hath to be Apostolike Rainoldes He proueth Nay he promiseth to proue them Apostolike For in verie truth he proueth not one not one of all those things wherein your Masse differeth from our Lords supper No more then he proueth this of lightes burning in the bright sunne-shine in the which he notably abuseth their names whom he doth cite to proue it For in Athanasius the tapers of the Church are mentioned onely but that they were lighted in the day-time while the gospell was reading there is no such word Nazianzene speaketh of lightes that were burning vpon Easter-euen but to lighten the night he saith not the day Hart. But speaketh he there of those night-lightes alone and of no other light Rainoldes He speaketh of an other light but spirituall For he saith that the most bright shining light foloweth the candle that did go before it Hart. Why that is it that sheweth the ceremonie which wée talke off For they were wont to carry candles before the gospell when they did reade it Rainoldes They were wont afterward But we speake of Nazianzene And he meant nothing lesse For by the light he signified Christ the light of the world and by the candle Iohn Baptist who went before Christ to prepare his wayes The light saith he shining most excellently bright foloweth the candle that did go before it and the word the voice and the bridegrome the bride man or frend who bringeth the bride to him Is this D. Stapletons proofe out of Nazianzene for burning tapers in the day time Hart. Of Nazianzene I know not But certainely S. Ierom is a witnesse of it against Vigilantiâ—s Rainoldes Yet these are S. Ieroms owne words in that treatise We doo light tapers not in the brightâ—day-time as thou doost vainely sclaunder vs but by this comfort to ease the darknes of the night Hart. But he addeth that Churches of the east had lightes burning in the day-time while the gospell was reading therby to shew their ioy Rainoldes But nether this vsage of the easterne Churches was the same that yours is For they did kéepe lightes while the gospel was reading and put them out after which rite you had also and some where haue perhaps yet But the generall rite which you haue gotten now of burning tapers still before the gospell and after that in S. Ieroms time not onely was vnborne in the weâ—â— but in the â—ast too Though if the east had vsed it yet nether were it proued so by your reason that the Apostles did ordeine it because it was not vsed in the westerne Churches therfore not through the whole world Howbeit I deny not but there is good reason why your Church should vse it For Tertullian saith let them light candels dayly who haue no light the testimonies of darkenes doo well beseeme them Hart. You may bring Tertullians werdes when you haue proued that we haue
with the Priestly garment of the holy Ghost Wherein as the garment and vnction and crowne do signifie spirituall giftes not thinges corporall so the holy robe that reached downe to the feete betokeneth that function which that robe in Aaron did represent and shadow Hart. You perswade not me that he alluded so to the robe of Aaron but that hee meant in déede a robe which Christian Bishops wore Rainoldes And what gaine you by it if so much were granted For you cannot proue by any circumstance of the place that it must be a Massing-robe The onely shew of any such is in your last proofe out of the Gréeke Fathers Chrysostome and Basil or rather out of the Liturgies which falsely beare their names or rather out of some copies ofthose Liturgies wherin are mentioned the amice the girdle the chisible and the fanel Howbeit if a man should sift the Gréeke words out of the which you picke these and conferre your amice with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your biggin of the head with their shoulder garment your one coard or fanel with their mo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your chisible with their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 perhaps he should leaue the girdle post alone to binde your proofe with And doutlesse in that which is most maske-like and least beséemeth Christian Pastours at publike seruice I meane that which the Priest at Masse weareth vppermost the chisible you call it I trow or vpper vestiment the Gréeke word declareth that you doo wrong to the Grecians in matching that of theirs with yours For the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which their vpper vestiment is noted doth signifie a cloake a garment worne much as single and readie by Christians in olde time chiefly by the Grecians whose Bishops kept it thence belike in solemnities when other wise they left it off But your vpper vestiment is farre from that singlenes nor is it like to that common garment but to a little cottage whence it is named casula closing the Priest round as it were with walles and hauing a hole for him to put out his head at as it were a loouer-hole to let out the smoke at Hart. The high Priest of the Iewes had the like robe Rainoldes Like your cottage-vestiment Which robe was that Hart. If not like our vpper vestiment altogither yet like in that respect that it was close about with a hole for his head in the â—â—ddes of it And therefore you néede not to scoffe in such sort at that kinde of vestiment Rainoldes If you take the little cottage to be a scoffe it is not my scoffe but your owne Doctours whose wordes I doo but open Your selfe are rather faultie who compare your cottage-ragge patched by mans braine with a Priestly robe made by Gods commandement And yet in that you match your vestiment with the Iewish for the forme of it I reproue you not For though there be difference betwéene theirs and yours in sundrie respectes yet yours were taken vp after the example and made in likenes of theirs Which is plainely shewed by those ancient autours whom I named before Alcuinus Amalarius and Walafridus Strabo Of whom the first treating of Massing-vestiments saith that the Church receiued them after the facion of the Priests of Moses law The next that our hye Priest he meaneth euery Bishop hath them after the rule of AaroÌ„ The last that they came in by little little for at the first saith he men celebrated Masses in common apparel as certaine of the east Church are said to doo till this day And so hee goeth forward shewing in particular how Stephen and Siluester and other Popes and Prelats did softly bring them in and some deuised this some that either to resemble the roabes of the Iewish Priests or to note a mysterie To be short it is shewed plainely by them all that the Massing-vestiments of Bishops at that time which was eight hundred yeares after Christ were but eight in number iust as many as Aarons Whereof the former seuen for the eighth was proper to Archbishops onely are growen now to be fiftéene more then twise as many And doo you not perceiue hereby M. Hart how lewdly D. Stapleton alleageth the Fathers to proue your Massing-vestimentes all to haue bene vsed by the primitiue Church How falsely the Councell of Trent doth father them nor onely them but also lightes incense crossinges and other ceremonies of the Masse on the tradition of the Apostles And sawe I not truely that if you see not how the Christian worship of God in spirit and truth doth differ from the Iewish and so might succeed it the cause thereof by likelihood is the vaile of Popery which hauing brought in a Iewish kinde of worship doth hide it from your eyes For is it not euident that the Iewish shadowes that is the darke lineaments of Christ as of a picture which he abolished by his coming as being the image it selfe and body of them are drawne out againe by the painters of your religion Or may not he that hath but halfe an eye sée that you surpasse the Iewes in sundrie shewes of outwarde seruice and go beyond the priesthood of Aaron in carnall rites For the most whereof though you haue meanings mysticall or spiritual matters which they are saide to figure in other significations then the Iewish did yet they set the Church to schoole with new rudiments after a Iewish maner and presse it with that bondage from which the Lord hath made it frée Wherefore were they taken from the Iewes or not yet in respect of vs on whom God hath not laide them they are of the commandements doctrines of men And we may iustly say of them now being bredde the same that S· Austin saide when they were bréeding Although it can not be found in what sense they are against the faith yet religion it selfe which God of his mercy would haue to bee free vnder very few and most manifest ceremonies of diuine seruice is by them oâ—pressed so with seruile burdens that the case and state of the Iewes is more tolerable who although they haue not acknowledged the time of libertie yet are they 〈◊〉 with the packes of Gods law not with the deuises and presumptions of men Hart. It is a calumnious spéech that our ceremonies are shadowes or rudiments or kéepe the Church in bondage as the Iewish did For theirs were very many combersome darke ours are vâ—ry few easie and significant As S. Austin saith that since that our libertie hath shined most brightly by Christs resurrection we are not laden with a heauie charge of signes as were the Iewes but our Lord himselfe and the Apostolike discipline hath deliuered to vs some few in steed of many and them most easie to be doon most honorable for signification most cleane and pure to be obserued But you
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
possessed any they bore not themselues as Lordes of the whole Countie I meane they neyther claimed nor vsed the supremacie Hart. But will you graunt that so much then of the suprepremacie as they claimed or vsed belongeth to their Sée and is theirs of right Rainoldes No. For the exception which I made against them was of two branches one that they auouch not the supremacie of the Pope the other that they auouch more through affection then is true and right And this is very manifest not onely by the dealinges of them whom I named but also by the writinges of them whom you alleaged Hart. Of the thirde sort of Popes if you meane they may be refused perhaps with greater shewe of reason But they whom I alleaged of the second sort were holy men and Saints Rainoldes The Apostles of Christ I hope were Saintes too Yet hath the spirite of God set down for our instruction that they did not onely desire superioritie but also striue about it Innocentius Leo Gelasius Vigilius Pelagius and Gregorie the men whoÌ„ you alleaged were not greater then the Apostles And the praise which they giue to their See of Rome doth so excéede the truth that it beareth euident markes of their affection You might haue perceiued it in that which you cited out of Innocentius concerning the Fathers and the sentence of God by which he saith they decreed that whatsoeuer was done in prouinces farre off it should not be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome For what were the Fathers who decréed that where is the sentence of God by which they did it Though this is the least of many friendlie spéeches which not Innocentius onely but the rest too as I haue shewed in Leo doo lend their Church Peter Yea some flat repugnant to the holy scripture and that confessed by your selues For they say that all Churches tooke their beginning from the Roman The holy scripture maketh Ierusalem the spring of them They say that all Bishops had their honor and name from Peter The holy scripture teacheth that many had it from other Apostles not from him They say that the Church of Rome hath neither spot norwrinckle nor any such thing The holy scripture sheweth that the Church is sanâ—ctified framed to be hereafter not hauing spot or wrinckle or any such thing wheÌ„ Christ shal make it glorious triumphant in heauen not but that it hath such while it is militant on the earth Which is so apparant that not the Fathers only but Thomas of Aquine also and D Stapleton confesse it Wherefore howsoeuer holy men they were of the second sort of Popes which you alleaged it cannot be denied but they had affections and yéelded thereunto as men Howbeit the thirde sort I graunt are best worthy to be excepted against for this fault For it is a small thing with them to vse spéeches repugnant to the Scripture but they must abuse yea coine scripture too for maintenance of their Papall port They can teach the Church that the Pope may offer to confirme Archbishops vpon this condition if they will be sworne to him because wheÌ„ Christ committed his sheepe vnto Peter he did condition with him saying if thou loue me feede my sheepe They can teach the Church that the Pope hath power ouer all powers Princes of the earth none hath power ouer him because the spirituall man iudgeth all thinges yet hee himselfe is iudged of no maÌ„ They can teach the Church that Christ ordeyned Peter and Peters successors to be his vicars who by the testimony of the booke of kinges must needes be so obeyed that he who obeieth them not must die the death and as it is read otherwhere Hee that forsaketh the Bishop of Romes chaire cannot bee in the Church Hart. That which is cyted out of the booke of kinges is in the booke of Deuteronomie The text is true scripture though the place mistaken And though it belong not to the Pope immediatly Rainoldes Nay neuer goe about to salue it M. Hart. That of Deuteronomie we haue alredy handled Pope Leo the tenth and his Councel of Laterane had a strong affection to make the Popes Kinges when they alleaged the booke of kinges for Deuteronomie Deuteronomie for the Papacie But what soeuer you think of the third or seconde or any sort of Popes it is against all law both of God and man that they should bée witnesses in their own matter And therefore if your proofe of their supremacie be no better the iury will cast you out of all controuersie For if I should beare witnesse of my selfe saith Christ my witnesse were not true None are fit witnesses in their own causes no not though they were as worthy meÌ„ as Scipio was amoÌ„gst the Romans It were a bad plea in Westminster Hall Iohn a Noke must haue this land for Iohn a Noke saith so The Canonistes themselues when Popes alleage Popes for proofe of certaine pointes touching their supremacie doe note that it is a familiar kind of proofe meaning such belike as that in the common prouerbe Aske my felow if I be a theefe Which they might note the better because it is euideÌ„t that the Popes haue stretched out their owne frindges in laying claime to large power as great Diuines among you haue written in these very termes Hart. The power which they claimed hath séemed ouer large to enuious and malicious men But it was no more then their right and due Which because you thinke not sufficiently prooued by the Popes themselues I will prooue it farther by the wordes and testimonies of other ancient Fathers Rainoldes Of whom Hart. Of the chéefest of them both Gréeke and Latine For it was the prerogatiue of the Popes office that made S. Bernarde séeke to Innocentius the third Epist. 190. S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first and to Caelestinus Epist. 90.92.95 S. Chrysostome to the saide Innocentius Epist. 1. 2. S. Basil to the Pope in his time Epist. 52. S. Ierom to Damasus Epist. 57.58 tom 2. and other likewise to others that by them they might be confirmed in faith and ecclesiasticall regiment Rainoldes If you bring such witnesses to proue the Popes supremacie I must request the iury to haue an eye to the issue For some of these Fathers desired to be helped by their aduise and counsell some by their autoritie and credit some by both By their aduise and counsell as Ierom of Damasus By their autoritie credit as Chrysostome of Innocentius By both as Basill Austin and the Bishops of Afrike of the Popes in their time Bernard somewhat more But he liued yesterday in comparison of the rest and therfore not to be numbred amongst the auncient Fathers Though neither he by this
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept because Flauianus had appealed You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian and with the ones words of appealing to Leo take that the other sayth to Leo and to all the Bishops of these partes So Leo and the Bishops being ioyned together will make the Councell of Chalcedon by the which Councell the cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged The same Councell also did iudge Theodorets cause finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale if he appealed to Leo and not to the Councell it was an ouersight Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge that might restore him but as to a man of learning and autoritie whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie And this doth the tenour of his request pretend Though asking wiâ—hall the aduise of Leo whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation or seeke to be restored he séemeth to haue thought of a further matter Which yet he toucheth so in speaking of troubling men and crauing Leos prayers that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him Wherefore the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him is that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President As with vs in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament that he may informe the Parlament thereof not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell as in déede he was and head of the Bishops therein as themselues say Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head Rainoldes You will find more heads then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare if you make such reasons First the Bishop of Corduba For Hosius was President of the Councell of Nice nor of Nice onely but also of Sardica and of many others Next the Bishop of Antioche or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople For the Pope had it not Thirdly the Bishop of Alexandria Hart. Nay Cyrill who had it in the third general Councel was Deputie therein to Pope Caelestinus as Euagrius writeth Rainoldes Caelestinus ioyned his autoritie to Cyrils But Cyrill was President as wel as Caelestinus in more mens iudgement then Euagrius Howbeit if he were not yet Alexandria will haue a head still For Dioscorus was President in the next of Ephesus neither he alone but also the Bishops of Ierusalem and Caesarea Wherefore if the Presidentship of a generall Councell do make a supreme head then Corauba in Spaine Alexandria in Egypt Ierusalem in Iewrie and other cities of the East may claime the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italie The Pope will be loth to haue so many partners But to deliuer him from that feare or rather the Church from his tyrannie and the truth from your sophisme there is a distinction in Cardinall Turrecremata which is worth the noting vpon this very point The PresideÌ„tship of Councels he sayth is two-folde one of honour an other of power Presidentship of honor is to haue preemineÌ„ce in place to propose things to direct the actions to giue definitiue sentence according to the voices and iudgement of the Councell Presidentship of power is to haue the right not onely of directing but of ruling their doings also and to conclude of matters after his owne iudgement though the greater part of the Councell like it not yea though no part like it Now the Popes supremacie chalengeth this Presidentship of power in Councels as though he alone were soueâ—aine iudge there which appéereth by his practise in the Councell of Vienna and by the Cardinals doctrine with the chiefest Papists But that which the general Councell of Chalcedon gaue vnto Leo in naming him their head was the Presidentship of honour as himself shewed in his Legates and Deputies who vsed all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges and concluded nothing but what they agréed of Wherefore the Presidentship which they gaue to Leo was no Papall soueraintie neither did they acknowledge him in that particular much lesse the Pope in generall to be their supreme head Hart. The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope and taught vs to acknowledge him our vniuersall Patriarke and Bishop of the Catholike Church nay to vse yet more the wordes of the most ancient Fathers our Prince the head of al Churches the top and the chiefe of the Apostolike company or as Epiphanius speaketh the chiefest the teacher of the whole world the ruler of the house of God an other father of the houshold and the first begotten whose seate as the most excellent Diuine S. Austin sayth hath the preeminence of a higher roome in the pastorall watch-tower which is common to all Bishops And will any man desire greater proofes of the Popes supremacie Rainoldes If any man doe he must take the paines to séeke them somewhere else Sure he is not like to finde them in your Stapleton For these are the chiefest of all in his treasurie Which therefore he culled out and sent them for a present to Gregorie the thirtéenth to shew what good wordes they giue of his Holinesse for his liberalitie toward the English Seminaries But he presenteth him with one title more which you haue omitted and yet doth it aduance him aboue all the rest Hart. None of the titles which the Fathers giue him Belike you meane that of the Emperour Rainoldes No I meane that of his owne Supremum in terris Numen In déede it hath no Fathers testimonie to proue it But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope so in the rest the notable sophister with you For the titles of our Prince the toppe the cheefe and chiefest of the Apostolike companie the teacher of the whole world an other father of the houshold and the first begotten are giuen by Optatus Chrysostome Epiphanius and a bastard Austin to Peter not to the Pope Stapleton alleaging them sayth that he vseth the wordes of the Fathers That is cunningly spoken For it is true he vseth their wordes though not their meaning As for the title of vniuersall Patriarke the Councell of Chalcedon which he quoteth for it gaue it not to the Pope neither Hart. No did not Theodore and certaine others there giue it to Pope Leo. Rainoldes A few poore suiters in their supplications to him and the Councell did séeke his fauour with it But neither the Councell nor any one Bishop of the Councell
was not thrée yeares Bishop Or if because Cyprian doth write it to the Pope you haue such a preiudice that it is the Popes peculiar you may know that he writeth the same to an other expresly of himself TheÌ„ce haue schismes heresies sproong doe spring that the Bishop which is one and ruleth the church is despised by the proud presumption of certain men Wherefore though your Rhemists and other of the Popes friends doe plie the box with that saying of one Priest one iudge for the time in Christs steed yet in very truth it maketh as much for the Bishop of Rochester as for the Bishop of Rome The more is Stapletons blame who knowing and confessing the same not onely otherwhere but in this very worke of his principles too yet in the ende thereof abridgeth it to the Pope Maruell that in his preface to Gregorie he past it He might haue alleaged it better then he hath The head of all Churches Which title is giuen in Victor to the Church of Rome not to the Bishop and toucheth lesse the Papacie there then in S. Gregorie in whom it doth not proue it as I haue declared Marry that which followeth is of greater shew out of Ambroses commentarie on S. Paul to Timothee where Damasus the Bishop of Rome in his time is called ruler of the Church But first whatsoeuer he were who wrote that it was not S. Ambrose the famous Bishop of Milan on whom are falsly fathered the coÌ„mentaries on S. Paul as your Diuines of Louan do obserue and testifie Next the wordes themselues which are in that autour on mention of the house of God the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus are not in my iudgement the autours owne wordes but a glose crept in amongst them For whereas S. Paule writing vnto Timothee declared why he did so to wéete that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the commentarie thereon doth expouÌ„d it thus I write vnto thee that thou maiest know how to gouern the Church which is the house of God that whereas all the world is Gods yet the Church is called his house the ruler whereof at this day is Damasus For the world is naught troubled with sundrie errours Therefore the house of God and truth must of neceâ—sitie be saide to be there where he is feared according to his will In the which wordes if that of Damasus were omitted the lâ—ter clawse contayning a reason of the former would cleaue therevnto more suantly and fitly Which maketh me to thinke that it was not pitched in thetext by the autour but found a â—hinke and so came in as an other glose of Damasus successour hath done into Optatus And I think it the rather because some are perswaded by manifolde conference as your Louanists note that the booke of questions of the old and new testament entitled to S. Austin this to S. Ambrose are the same autours For he who wrote that booke was not aliue of lykelihoode when Damasus was Pope Howbeit if he were too and of a kinde â—ffection to Rome where he liued thought good to mention him the wordes which he vseth in Latin cuius hodie rector est Damasus might meane that Damasus was a ruler of the Church not as you english it the ruler Which to haue bene so it appéereth farther by the word at this day spoken with a relation to the dayes of Timothee that as hée did gouerne the Church in Paules time so at that present was Damasus ruler of it Wherefore sith Timothee was placed at Ephesus to set that Church in order not to rule the whole Damasus might be called a ruler of the Church in that he was Bishop of the Church of Rome as S. Ambrose termeth him though he were not the ruler of the vniuersal S. Austin is the last oâ— them whose testimonies you cited And the preeminence of a higher roome whereof he made mention to Boniface the first importeth a prerogatiue of honour ouer others not soueraintie of power A prerogatiue of honour according to the canon of the first Councell of Constantinople which gaue that prerogatiue to the See of Rome because that citie raigned Not soueraintie of power as it is euident by the Councell of Afrike where he denied that to the same Boniface to whom hée graunted this preeminence It was therefore only the dignitie of place which S. Austin meant by the higher roome As else where hauing named Cyprian Olympius and other auncient writers he sayth that Innocentius was after them in time before them in place because they were Bishops of inferiour cities and he of the Roman Hart. Nay but S. Austin sayth in plain termes that the principalitie of the Apostolike See had floorished in that Church still Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth in as plain termes that Bishops may reserue their cases to the iudgement of their fellow-bishops chiefly of the Apostolike Church and that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope in iudging of those causes too Which is a cléere proofe that by the principalitie of the Apostolike See he meant the Church of Rome to be chéefe of other Churches as I sayd in honour not in power For in power al others at least the Apostolike that is in which the faith of Christ had bene taught by the Apostles themselues are made equall with it But amongst all in which the Apostles themselues had taught the faith the Roman for honour credit had the chiefty And thus haue I discharged my selfe of my promise which was that I would yeeld vnto the Popes supremacie if you prooued it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applied rightly For none of all theÌ„ which you haue alleaged neither of any other church nor of the Roman it self doth auouch it Whereby the shamelesse vanitie of Bristow may be séene who being not contented to say of all the Fathers that they were Papists addeth that in familiar talke among our selues we are not afeard plainely to confesse it The Lord who is witnesse of our thoughtes and spéeches knoweth that we are lewdly sclaundered herein And for mine owne part I am so farre off from confessing plainely that they were all Papists that I haue plainly declared and confirmed not one of them to haue bene For the very being and essence of a Papist consisteth in opinion of the Popes supremacie But the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers Not one then of al the Fathers was a Papist Wherefore if you haue the Fathers in such reuerent regard and estimatioÌ„ as you pretend M. Hart let if not the Scriptures yet the Fathers moue you to forsake Papistrie and giue to euery pastor and church their owne right whereof Christ hath possessed
and meaning of their whole sentences For the Councell of Afrike though bearing a while with the Popes claime till the Nicen canons whereby he claimed were serched yet at length condemned it as I haue shewed and of the foure generall Councels as the former two did enclose the Pope within his owne prouince or diocese at the most so did the two later of Ephâ—sus and Chalcedon confirming the decrées and canons of the former Hart. Nay doubtlesse at Chalcedon the Iudges hauing heard the former canons read sayd that they perceiued al primacie principall honour to be due to the Pope thereby Rainoldes But they added that the Patriarke of Constantinople ought to be vouchsafed of the same prerogatiues and primacie of honour As the Câ—uncell also it selfe allotted equall prerogatiues to them both ordeining therevpon that Constantinople should be magnified in ecclesiasticall matters as well as Rome and be next vnto it Wherein it is manifest that they meant preeminence of honour not of power For themselues decréed that the highest iudge of ecclesiasticall persons should be the Patriarke of the diocese or of Constantinople Wherby they gaue greater power to the Patriarke of Constantinople whom they authorised to deale in euery diocese then to the Roman Patriarke whom they tied to his own In so much that the Greekes say that all dioceses of the whole world were subiect to their Patriarke by the Councell of Chalcedon At least if the Councel haâ— an eye to power and not to honour only in willing them to be magnified yet that is a disproofe still of the Popes supremacie As you may learne by Gratian. Who séeking to proue it by the same canon renued in the Councell of Constantinople hath helped it with a negatiue and where the Councell sayd Let Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome he alleageth it let not Constantinople be magnified as well as Rome Hart. The Councell which that canon was renued in is vntruly called the sixth general Councel For they made no canons Rainoldes Yet a Councell made them in Constantinople with credit of a generall And the next generall Councell did confirme them Which thereby disproued the Popes supremacie too Yea againe the next defined of the Pope as of other Patriarkes and that vpon the ground of the famous Nicen. To be short the visible Monarchie of the Church was neuer allowed to him by any Councell generall or prouinciall vntil the East Churches were rent from the West and the Italian faction did beare the sway in Councels Hart. What meane you to say so wheras the Councell of Lateran vnder InnoceÌ„tius did approue it flatly the Patriarks of the Churches of Constantinople and Ierusalem being present Rainoldes Not the right Patriarkes I trow Though if they had bene yet might the Italians make decrées in Lateran at Rome without them But nether did that Councell approue the Popes Monarchie For the Popes Monarchie is a full and absolute soueraintie of power ouer the whole Church Wherevpon the principall proctours of it teach that not a generall Councell is aboue the Pope but the Pope aboue the CouÌ„cel For they sayth Father Robert who hold that the Councel is aboue the Pope do make him like a Duke of Venice aboue euery magistrate and senatour in seuerall not aboue the whole Senate But he is aboue the whole Church absolutely and aboue the generall Councell so that he acknowledgeth no iudge on earth aboue him Now the soueraintie of ordinarie power geuen to the Pope ouer all Churches by the Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius was but as it were a Dukedome of Venice ouer euery Church and Bishop in seuerall not ouer the whole Church A signorie of great state but not a Popes Monarchie His Monarchie was neyther allowed by that Councell nor by any other for many ages after nay it was condemned expresly by the Councell of Constance of Basil. The first that allowed it was the Councell of Lateran vnder Leo the tenth a thousand fyue hundred and syxtéene yeres after Christ. Hart. Nay the Councel of Florence had allowed it a fourescore yeres before the Greeke and Latin Bishops subscribing both thereto Rainoldes But in such sort that your Roman reader though making the most thereof for the Popes credit was fainâ— yet to say that the Councel of Florence did not define it so expressely In truth the Greeke Bishops answered of themselues for they might not treate thereof without consent they sayd of their whole Church but of themselues they answered that the Pope ought to haue the same prerogatiues that he had before the time of their dissension Which is a great presumption that when they subscribed to more then the same it was not of themselues Chiefly sith they came besides so constrainedly to that which they did and refused to obey the Pope when they had done it But Leo the tenth with his Italian faction in Lateran defined it From whom the Uniuersitie of Parise appealed straight to a Councell and condemned his Lateran doctrine and decrée as the Uniuersities of Lâ—uan of Coolein of Vienna and of Cracouia had done before also The consent therefore of Pastours and Doctours throughout all Christendome hath disallowed the Popes Monarchie And that which the Pastours and Doctors deliuered was the religion of their Churches Whereby you may sée the truth of that I sayd that except the crew of the Italian faction all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie Hart. Truly I must confesse I sée more probabilitie on your side then I did But in that you said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe till this day you forgot your selfe who granted before that by the Trent-doctrine the Pope is aboue the Councell For the doctrine agreed on by the Councell of Trent which you call the of Trent-doctrine is held by Catholike Christians through the whole Church at this day Rainoldes I said that all Christian Churches haue condemned it and doe except the crew of the Italian faction Which spéeche agréeth well with that I said before of the Councell Trent For the Trent-doctrine of the Popes supremacie is that which the Italian faction at Trent did ouerbeaâ—e the rest in As Claudius Espencaeus a Diuine of Parise a Doctour of your own witnesseth saying that Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arle did complaine iustly at the Councell of Basil that looke what the Italian nation liketh of that is decreed in Councels this is that Helena which did preuaile of late at Trent Now that which the Cardinal Ludouicus spake of was that in Councels not only Bishops but Elders too should haue voices as of old time they had for if Bishops only haue voices sayth the Cardinall then shal that be done that shall seeme good to the Italian nation which alone
hath ether mo Bishops or as many as al other nations haue For euery baggage-towne hath a Bishop there And these buggage-Bishops of whom there were more at the Councell of Trent then of all other nations did allow that doctrine Though neyther they perhaps allowed it in hart but were induced by Papall meanes to yéeld vnto it For the answere of Vargas touching the Popes supremacie made at Rome and published for instruction of the Councell assembled then at Trent doth shew that there was some sticking at the matter And your stories note that the Pope is fowly afraide of general Councels leaft they should hurt his State and commeth like a beare to the stake as they say when he is drawne to summon them What a doo was made before he could be brought to grant that the Councell of Trent should goe forward And while the Councell lasted he kept good rule at Rome but brake loose whē it was ended Besides it being ended twentie yeares ago there hath bene none since nether I beléeue is like to be in hast Where yet there should be one euery ten yeres by their own decrée All euident tokens that the Pope himselfe doth thinke that Bishops vnder him like not his supremacie and would cut it shorter if they might haue power and autoritie to do it Which if they would do though being sworne to maintaine it yea and to maintaine the reseruations the prouisions other excesses of it is it not manifest that they disallow it or detest it rather Hart. Our ancestours allowed it euer since the time that by S. Gregories meanes they were first conuerted to the fayth of Christ till King Harries dayes when heresie did roote it out Rainoldes Our ancestours had a reuerent opinion of the Pope long after S. Gregorie for S. Gregories sake and honoured him aboue all Bishops But when he began to reach out the pawes of his supremacie ouer thē in giuing Church-liuings and handling Church-causes and executing Church-censures they were so farre frō liking it that they made lawes against it two hundred yeres ago Euen in Queene Maries time when they restored that stoompe of his vsurped power which they had rooted out vnder King Henrie the eigth they prouided that hée should haue no more but that stoompe kept the former lawes in force against him still Wherefore though our auncestours gaue him great preeminence of honour some of power too yet the most they gaue him was but a Venice-Dukedome his Monarchie they neuer allowed to this day Which may bée sayd likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occcasiō as our neighbours of Fraunce Germanie For ech of them shewed their mislike and hatred of the Popes supremacie by supplications complaints offered to their Princes Yea Fraunce made lawes against it which might haue continued had not the Gentiles raged broken the bands a sunder And these of whose iudgements I haue spoken hitherto are such as your selues doe holde for Catholike Christians The rest Christians also though you cal them heretikes and schismatikes yet Christians the Churches of Greece and Asia in the East in the North of Moscouie in the South of Aethiopia in the West of Boheme Prouince Piemont heretofore the reformed Churches that are at this day in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie Flaunders Suitzerland and so foorth throughout Europe set lesse by the Pope then the former did That I might say iustly that except the crew of the Italian factiō wherein I comprehend the Iesuites and their complices men Italianate al Christian Churches haue condemned the Popes supremacie do till this day Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men so many thousandes of them Pastours and Doctours Synodes and Coūcels Uniuersities and Churches through all ages in all countries of al sorts and states might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacie At least they might make you to blush M. Hart who haue sayd in writing that all men did grant it him without resistance it was neuer denied him But sith it must be tried by the word of God and it is not writen in the booke of life I conclude that it is not a citizen of Ierusalem but a child of Babylon which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones And thus haue I shewed that the former point on which you refuse to communicate with vs in prayers and religion ought to bring you rather to vs then draw you from vs. It remaineth now that we sift the later of the faith professed in the Church of England Which if it be found to be the Catholike faith as in truth it will then is there no cause but you must néedes yéeld that we may go together into the house of the Lord. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiects in things spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it HART Nay first why doe you take the supremacie from the Pope and giue it to the Prince who is lesse capable of it Rainoldes The supremacie which we take from the Pope M. Hart we giue to no mortall creature Prince nor other But the Pope hauing seazed on part of Christs right part of Princes part of Bishops part of peoples Churches as the chough in Aesope did trick vp himselfe with the feathers of other birdes the feather which the Romish chough had of our Princes we haue taken from him and geuen it to her Maiestie to whom it belonged according to the lesson of our heauenly Master Geue to Caesar the thinges which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods Hart. It is not Caesars right to be the supreme gouernour of all his dominions in things spirituall and temporall But this is the supremacie which you giue our soueraine Lady Quéene Elisabeth Therfore you giue the Prince more thē i◠the Princes Rainoldes To haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions is to be supreme gouernour of all his dominions in thinges spirituall and temporall But it is Caesars right to haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions Therefore that is the Princes which we giue the Prince Hart. The Prince hath preeminence ouer al rulers within his owne dominions in gouernment of matters touching man not God For nether he nor any of the rulers vnder him may deale in them both Rainoldes They may For the ciuil magistrate is ordeined to punish them that doe euill and praise them that doe well But the euill to be punished and the good to be praised compriseth all duties not only towardes man but towards
through bashfulnes least any man should thinke me to hunt after glory which young men are too gréedie of partly through the knowledge of mine owne weaknes who neither in respect of wit nor age nor learning was ripe inough to bring foorth fruites which might be set before all men to be tasted off For though I desire to benefitte all whom I may hauing learned of Plato that I am not borne for my selfe alone but for my countrey neither can I benefitte my countrey more by any meanes then by teaching the waies how to attaine to good artes as Tully thought well yet I feared least I should offend in a common faute an itching lust to write which Horace did terme madnes in his daies what would he haue done if he had liued in ours in which there is such plenty both of passing wits and of works excellent that wise men may iustly thinke it vnmeete to publish any thing that is not wrought with cunning filed with iudgement poolished with labour fruitfull for commoditie and for vse necessary Howbeit after that I was discharged of that profession of artes of humanitie that I might the better applie the studie of diuinitie what before of bashfulnes and iudgement I had still refrained to doo in things of lesse importance least I should doo it more rawly then I thought méete the duetie which I owe to God and his Church hath mooued me now to do that in a weightie matter though not so ripely as I would Which thing vndertaken both by the aduise and the request of the godly I was occasioned to thinke off by one Richard Bristow an Englishman borne abiding at Doway professing the Romish faith who hath set foorth a poisoned worke against the faith and Church of Iesus Christ the faith which we professe the Church of which we be That worke entitled Motiues to the catholike faith when first he set it foorth he hath abridged since into a pamphlet of Demaundes to be proponed of catholikes to heretikes and printed it againe setting before vs the same vnsauory Coleworts twise sodden by himselfe a thousand times by Popish cookes to the great anoyance of guestes if they féede on it great loathing if they féede not What a gréeuous iniury therein be hath doon to the Church of England nor only to the whole bodie thereof but to the seuerall partes also by raysing vp vntrue and wicked surmises by casting out reprochfull spéeches by laying heresies to our charge it shal be declared as I heare shortly in the meane season let the godly iudge whiles to beginne with our most gratious Queene the daughter of godlinesse the defender of the faith the mainteiner of peace the nurse of the Church the preseruer of the weale publik◠the mother of our countrey he doth not onely note her by the name of Pharao but also putteth secretely into mens heads that she is not a lawfull but a pretensed Queene as the Papistes terms her of her Maiesties faithfull and obedient subiectes he saith that they obey her for common humanitie not of duetie to traitors who suffred for taking armes against her he geueth the title of holy and most glorious Martyrs he sclaunderously reporteth that the wiser sort and principall of the Realme haue prooued by experience of our dooings that our religion is no religion at all that our Bishops and Ministers are most ill and wicked and very fewe who preach and they scarce euer preach vpon the mysteries of faith that our people the neerer they come to the preachers doctrine the more they fall away from order and godlines assuring yet themselues to be saued by faith only be they neuer so wicked that in our Vniuersities either nothing is studied or the arte of speaking only not Diuinitie or if Diuinitie not all but a fewe points of it that our countrey is full not of men but of monsters of Atheistes of Achrists of them who beléeue not that a mans soule dooth liue more then a beasts when it is gone out of the body finally not to rake out of those caues of brimstone the rest of the coales of iuniper which he dooth throw both generally vpon whole estates and vpon many learned and godly men particularly that our Church the very body of our Church dooth not foster an heresie or two but hath reuiued many old heresies besides at least a thousand more of their owne inuention that it committeth not a sinne or two but holdeth a common schoole of sinne wherein the scholers be most lewde and the masters lewder that it thinketh verely there is no saluation at all no religion a thing which I tremble to mention but this cockatrice with venemous mouth hath said hath said nay he hath written it and he hath writen it with a penne of iron he hath writen it to last as a monument of his sclaunder that we thinke verily there is no saluation at all none at all and that our religion indeede is no religion Now these false and sclaunderous spéeches against our Church wherewith he hath besette his worke in sundry places as with precious stones are vnderlaide with reasons against our Churches faith begotten of the same father and sisters germaine to the sclaunders loose and dull in truth yet in apparance sharpe and sound which although the skilfull might crush in péeces without harme yet might they doo harme by stinging the vnskilfull euen as a scorpion if he sting a man dooth hurt him with his sting but if you bruse him straight and with his body brused anoint the part stoong he dooth you no hurt Wherefore to the intent that this scorpion of Bristow pricking with two stings as the worst kind of scorpions is wont the one of sclaunders the other of cauilles might doo no hurt to our men whom in the vniuersities or other parts of the realme he is thought to haue stoong many godly men haue wished him to be brused that if not all the parts yet at least so many as the grace of God which only healeth would recure might therewith be anointed And this doo they séeme to haue wished so much the more because some men hauing litle skill in physiche doo thinke that this scorpions stingings are uncurable For both Bristow himselfe as Thraso 〈◊〉 Terence praising his owne spéeches And now they were all afraide of me doth proudly aske whether any of our great Masters will answere his Demaundes as though we had neither shield in the Church to quench the fierie dartes of Satan nor physician in Israel to heale such as are wounded and I know not what Gnatho which hath cast abroad of late infamous verses in our vniuersitie hath insolently boasted that the Captaines tremble amazed with Bristowes lightning as though he had astonied the Coronells of our army not the souldiers onely But let Bristow know that nether all doo feare him howsoeuer he hath touched
the youthes in his Pasquines nor poore men haue cause to stand in doute of him though he threaten being armed with a leauer and a dish-clout that a wil quel all who stand in his way crush theÌ„ in peeces And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning which he hath â—â—asht to burn England sure it is such lightning as was after the Poet the lightning of Salmoneus who shaking oft a torch did counterfeit the thundring soundes and lightning flames of heauen But such kindes of lightning although they daunt the wauering Gréekes and towne of Elis whose king is Salmoneus yet they daunt not the vnuincible Christians and citie of the liuing God whose king is the Lord. And let him who flasht it take héed if he bee wise least his foolish lightning as they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus be reuenged with true lightning of almightie God to the vtter ruine of him selfe his towne and citizens For the Church which is lead by the holy Ghost into all truth hath béene alreadie taught by him out of the scriptures and shall be taught farther through the grace of God what difference there is betweene the lightning of Bristow and the light of Iesus Christ the lightning of Bristow the heate whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh the light of Iesus Christ the beames whereof delite the men to whom it shineth the lightning euill and pestilent which blindeth them who sée and killeth them who liue the light good and healthfull which giueth sight vnto the blinde and life vnto the dead Neither are wee without many godly men of excellent autoritie learning and iudgement euen amongst them whom this Tertullus nameth reprochefâ—lly great Maiâ—ters who could haue shewed this long ago â—â—wbeit they haue stayed hetherto from dooing it either because they thought his folies were refuted before they were writen for that after the maner of the Popish writers he bringeth no new matter but scowreth vp old rustie stuffe as one of them did note long since or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had writen before and more pithily entending to deale after with the rest in due time as an other signified of late that he meant or because the controuersies being sufficiently traueled in by many they thought that they might well cease from this labour though the Papistes ceased not from their impudencie as Ieremie hauing answered Hananiah once gaue him no answere wheÌ„ he repeated his error or because perhaps some had no leasure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church some listed not to striue with such a railing person some while they thinke that others haue taken it in hand do let it alone al either remember the counsell of the wise man that thou must not alwayes answere a foole least thou become like him or if it were requisite to answere him now least he seeme wise in his owne conceit they straine curtesie who should doo it For my part least the Philistines should vaunt any longer as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath or the Israelites be gréeued with hearing the host of the liuing God to be so defyed of an vncircumcised Philistin I purposed through gods grace though perhaps Goliath would haue disdained me as a childe yet I purposed to set vpon him in the name of the Lord of hostes the God of the host of Israel But when I had prepared my selfe to the battaile and chosen smooth stones out of the brooke of Gods worde which are mightie through God to cast downe holdes euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God I heard that the matter was dispatched alreadie by a stoute and faithful souldiour of Christ by whom many Philistines had before beene conquered Whose worke as I vnderstood since is at the presse too and shall be shortly published Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose I thought on that demaund and promise of Bristow touching the scripture and the Church wherein he doth challenge and offer vs the combat For whereas a countrie man of ours vnder the title of an vnlearned Christian concealing his own name had set foorth a booke touching the autoritie of Gods word 〈◊〉 Church Bristow willeth him to set out his booke and put his name to it with approbation of our Rabbines and with priuilege and promiseth that he shal quickly see it answered This booke haue I sought for but could not fall vpon it all the copies of it as I ghesse being sold. Neither knew I how to speake with the autor who had coÌ„cealed his name I dout not but for good cause But to satisfie if not wholy yet as farre as I might the chaleÌ„ge of Bristow I haue set out this litle treatise of the same point with the autours name thereto approbation not of Rabbines whom we leaue to that Synagogue whose rulers loue to be called Rabbi Rabbi Maisters Doctours but of graue and learned men whom it concerneth Which thing I hope will like him so much the better because it compriseth not onely that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out but certaine other also of the same kinde chiefly touching the Church whereof he hath onely the bare name to boast of And I looke for an answere so much the sooner because there are now fower yeares past since he promised a Latin booke to which whether it be come abroad already or to come shortly he may ioine if it please him an answere to these Conclusions Wherein if he thinke it méete for him to deale there are thrée things both easy to be doon and reasonable in my iudgement which I will request him One is that he will set downe the text of my Conclusions wholy with his answere as I had determined to doo with his Demaundes that the readers may sée what he confuteth and how An other that he will not kicke against the prickes that he will yéelde to the truth and not go about to darken the cléere light of the sunne of righteousnes with cauils and sclanders The thirde that if he be ashamed to say the truth preuails against me yet in reprouing such things as he assayeth to reproue he will deale more soundly and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath doon in his Doctrinall Principles of faith a worke more full of wordes then truth For to confute our doctrine that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen which we teach of the Catholike Church and it is true he teacheth that euill men are mingled in the Church with good the reprobate with the elect which thing is also true in the militant Church But true thinges agrée with true thinges neâ—â—her doth one truth ouerthrow an other We hold that the Catholike Church which is commended to vs in the Creede is the whole company of
Gods elect and chosen He answereth that the militant Church which is mentioned in the scriptures too containeth neither all the elect nor them onely And by this answere he saith he hath confuted the errour and heresie of the Hussites But therein he dealeth like them of whom the prouerbe is I asked for hookes they say they haue no mattokes But to returne to my purpose I haue thought good to publish my Conclusions euen in the same sort as they were set downe in verses and opened with suppositions according to the order of publike disputations of our Uniuersitie the rather for this cause that straungers might perceiue the kinde of our disputations which and all things els of our Uniuersitie are so debased by Bristow as if wisedom had béene borne with them alone and should dye with them Now these six Conclusions containe the chiefe fountaines and as it were the very foundations of the controuersies which we haue with the Church of Rome That the light thereof will be some helpe I trust to such as are not wilfully blinde to scatter Bristowes mistes and all the mistie cauils of Bristowes mates and complices For where it is certaine by manifest proofe as the Church of Rome it selfe doth acknowledge that the whole doctrine of religion and faith which leadeth the faithfull to saluation and life by the true and right worship of God is contained in Gods word the Papists to establish their superstitions and errours that are against the scripture diuide the worde of God into scripture and traditions that what they can not finde in Gods writen worde they may cauill that is was ordered by Gods traditionarie word so to terme it An old sleight and policie of the ympes of Satan wherewith first the Scribes and Pharises of the Iewes did craftily assay to beguyle our Sauiour Christ as the Euangelistes haue writen afterwarde the heretikes Tatian Valentinus Marcion and their felowes assayed in like sort to beguyle Christians as Ierom and Irenaeus shew And these are the parents of that corrupt opinion concerning traditions which are called Apostolike as by olde heretikes so by new The Roman Church embraceth the opinion as her owne childe litle considering that it is a bastard not conceyued by Christ but got by theft from old heretikes Unlesse perhaps she had it rather by adoption from Marcus Antonius who when the Senate had ratified the actes of Caesar he added to Caesars acts what he listed and would haue it to stand as sure as if Caesar him selfe had enacted it But that the opinion it selfe is a bastard whosoeuer begot it an heretike or an Heathen and therefore to be shut out of the Lordes assemblie which bastardes are forbidden to enter into my first Conclusion sheweth wherein I haue declared that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation Now the Papists being cast downe from this bulwarke retyre vnto the Church and say thereof it can not erre that although their traditions that is their errours did not spring from Christ yet can they haue no faute because the Church doth hold them Herodotus reporteth that Cambyses king of Persia burning with wicked loue of his owne sister asked the Persian iudges whether hee might mary her by the law of the realme Whereto they made answere after consultation that they found no law which permitteth a brother to mary his sister but an other law they had found yet which permitteth the king of Persians to do what he list The Persian iudges offended if they fained this law the Persians if they made it But vpon that answere Cambyses did ioyne him self incesâ—uously in mariage with his sister The Heathens haue reproued this fact of his as wicked and is not the Papists â—act most like vnto it The Roman Church the Quéene of Baâ—ylon hath burned with a cursed desire not of her brother as Cambyses of his sister but of idols superstitions The aduise of Bishops the Roman iudges hath béene asked whether she might mary superstitions and idols by the law of Christ. The Bishops haue caused the scriptures to be serched and they finde no law whereby the worship of idols and superstitions is permitted but an other law they haue found yet which prouideth that the Church can not erre in decreeing any thing The Roman iudges offended who fained this law the Romanists who allow it But vpon this sentence their Church pretendeth mariage committeth adulterie with superstitions and idols in most abominable sort Yet Bristow layeth it in the foundation of his house and maketh mention of it as if it were the law of Austin yea of Christ but impudently and fasly that it may well appéere he neither knew what Christ said nor what Austin meant Wherefore to ouerthrow the ruinous walles both of the house and the foundation I haue set the second Conclusion against it which proueth manifestly that the militant Church may erre not in maners only but in doctrine too And that being settled doth séeme withall to settle strengthen the third wherein it is auouched that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the Church Truly I should maruaile that it could euer come into the minde of any man to thinke otherwise had not S. Paul foretold that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition should sit in the temple of God exalt him self aboue God Which prophecie hath béene fulfilled in their eyes who haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ they haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ who haue séene the Church aduanced aboue the scripture For what is detracted from the scripture the worde of Christ that is in déede detracted from Christ the autour of the word And that which in shew is yéelded to the Church is attributed in truth to the Pope of Rome Both these thinges are euident by Albertus Pighius whose sayinges concerning the scripture and the Church although they bee very insolent and vngodly yet there were amongst them who liued before Pighius euen of the chiefetaines of the Romish Church as namely the Fathers of the Councell of Constance and Cardinall Cusanus who spake more insolently They who liued since haue kept the sense and substance of Cusanus and Pighius in that they geue a Princely or rather a tyrannicall autoritie to the Church for expounding the scripture as Cardinall Hosius dooth But they haue put fresh colours on it and qualified as it were the rigour of the spéeches in so much that Bristow treading the steppes of Hosius requyreth not greater autoritie for the Church but séemeth wel content to make it equall with the scripture Howbeit hee speaketh so I know not how that I dare not auouch he is of that mind For though he doo chalenge like obedience to them both like truth like priuilege to be frée from errour yet in that hée addeth
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
there is any faute in the diall I meane in the Church for that can not be as Pighius proueth pretily but because perhaps either Christ him selfe hath tooke an other course and is altered I know not by what changeablenes of God or els the whole scripture is slipt from the point in the which it stood But let vs right woorshipfull who know that the dials and clockes doo mysse often but the course of the sunne is certaine and constant let vs make more account of the sunne then of a diall of heauen then of Plinie of the Zodiake circle then of the field of Flora of God then of men of Christ then of Pighius of the holy scripture then of the church For God forbid there should be any amongst vs so beastly a monster in the shape of man as to set vp Antichrist in the temple of God aboue God and to attribute more to any either man or multitude of men then to the Lord of maiestie But so doo they no dout who haue the Church in greater regard then the scripture For the voice of the scripture is the voice of God the voice of the Church is the voice of men Then if it be impious to set vp men aboue God doubtlesse to set vp the Church aboue the scripture it is Antichristian Nor yet doo I deny that the Churches voice is sometimes the voice of God For in appeasing the offenses and reprouing the sinnes of brethren if thy brother saith Christ refuse to heare the church let him be to thee as a heathen man and a Publican But the holy spirit that is the spirit of truth doth speake both alone and alwaies in the scripture An humaine spirit that is a spirit of errour hath a part sometimes in the spéech of the Church Both which pointes I haue proued by the word of God the euidence of the thing and the confessions of our aduersaries Why doo we not then acknowledge that the royall prerogatiue of this priuilege to bee altogither exempt from all errour is due to scripture onely and confesse as Austin doth against the Donatistes that it is peculiar and proper to the holy canonicall scripture that all things which are writen therein be true and right but the letters and writings of Bishops as of Cyprian yea the very Councels not prouinciall onely but also full and generall haue often times somewhat that may be amended I for my part doo gladly both allow this sentence of Austin and iudge it woorthy to be allowed as agréeable to the trueth And therefore I conclude the point which I proposed that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the church Thus you haue my iudgement right learned Inceptors touching the Conclusions which are to be disputed of opened in more wordes perhaps then your wisedome in fewer then the weight of the things required But I haue waded so farre in the opening of them as I thought the Proctors might wel giue me leaue by the straitnes of time As for that which néedeth to be discussed farther I will assay to open it as well as I can if occasion serue when the aduersarie arguments shall bée proposed in disputation CONCLVSIONS HANDLED IN DIVINITIE SCHOOLE THE III. OF NOVEMBER 1579. 1 The holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen HE who the sea the earth the skyes made by his worde of nought Who by eternall power doth guide and rule all things he wrought Did choose from out the sonnes of men before the world was pight Such as with blessed angels aye should ioy his blisfull sight The Iewes are not the onely men that make this holy band But they are souldiers chosen out of euery toung and land Where on the south the mightie prince of Abissines doth raigne Where on the north the coasts do lye that looke to Charles waine Where Phaebus with his glistring beames doth raise the dawning light And sinking in the westerne seas doth bring the darksome night The fleâ—h can not by natures light such hidden truthes pursue But Christian faith by light of grace this Catholike Church doth vew 2 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the catholike Church THey do not well who shut the world within the Roman boundes Christs Church is spred through al the earth without restraint of mounds Rome was I grant a faithfull branch of this renowned vine Rome was a myrrour that in grace in zeale in loue did shine Rome was commended farre and wide for faith in Christ his name For Peters doctrine taught and kept Rome was of worthy fame But where Rome was now ruines are The Capitoll is sâ—ooried The grouÌ„d is bathde in Christians blood whoÌ„ Romish woolues haue wooried Her Churches are with idoles stained her guides with maners vile Whom lustfull traines and wicked hearts and beds vnchast defile O thrise vnhappie Babylon that Sions spoyle doost woorke Under the noble name and hue of Sion wouldest thou lurke 3 The reformed churches in England Scotland France Germany and other kingdomes common wealthes haue seuered them selues lawfully from the church of Rome A Place of haunt for deuils and sprits is Babylon waxt saith Iohn Art thou desirous to be saued from Babylon be gon The names and trickes of Babylon Rome on it selfe doth take Then if ye séeke eternall life sée that ye Rome forsake This haue the noble Germanes done bidding the Pope a dieu England hath followed Germany Romes thraldome to eschew Beholde the Lord hath called on the Flemish French and Dane And Scotland hath escaped eke the Papall deadly bane O that the remnant of the world by faith to Christ were knit And Princes to the Prince of all their scepters would submit Build vp O Lord O father deare the church and Sions for t That vnto thée from Babylon thy people may resort AMongst many singular benefits of God bestowed vpon our Vniuersitie fathers and brethren which may be very fruitfull to the aduancing of Gods glory and saluation of the Church if they be well husbanded there is scarse any more excellent in my iudgement then that it is ordered that the truth giuen by inspiration of God and registred in the Scripture should be not expounded onely by publike lectures but also proued by disputations A woorthy and profitable ordinance no doubt and most méete for schooles which serue to traine vp Christians that is for schooles of God For what can there be more pretious then the truth which teacheth vs the knowledge of God the way to life And what more conuenient to strengthen the truth then to haue it proued by discussing the reasons brought of both partes For as golde being digged out of the veines of the earth is seuered from earthy substance mixt therewith by the mettall-workemen knocking it together and as husbandmen are wont to sift wheat from the chaffe by winowing that it may be fit to nourish the body
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
Christ most holy Finally sith God hath called the holy church not out of this or that countrey not out of this or that people but out of all nations spred through the whole world for that cause the church is intitled Catholike that is vniuersall not Iewish not Roman not English not of one people or prouince but vniuersall and Catholike coÌ„pacted as it were into one body out of all sorts of estates sexes ages nations Iewes Heathens Greeks Barbarians bond and free men and wemen old and young rich and poore For both the old Church before the birth of Christ which saw the day of Christ to come and was saued did gather children of God vnto her selfe at first out of any people afterward when the grace of God shined chiefly among the people of Israel she did ioyne conuertes to Israel out of the rest and much more the new Church called since Christ was borne hath enlarged her tabernacle as Esay the Prophet speaketh to all nations beginning at Ierusalem Iudaea Samaria and going forward thence euen to the vttermost endes of the earth For God hath not called the circumcised Iewes alone to be his Church as the time was when the Apostles thought through a litle ouersight the Iewes in our dayes haue too presumptuously wéened but Christ being crucified hath broken the stoppe of the partition-wall and is become the chiefe stone of the corner on which a dooble wall ariseth and as Dauid prophecied the Egyptian the Babylonian the Tyrian the Aethiopian the Philistine are borne in Sion and as the Elders in whom is represented the company of the faithfull doo sing vnto Christ Thou hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tounge and people and nation and hast made vs kings and priests to our God we shall raigne vpon the earth Wherefore sith the church which the holy scriptures doo commend vnto vs betokeneth the company and assembly of the faithfull whom God hath chosen Christ hath sanctified and called out of all nations to the inheritance of his owne kingdome the holy Ghost who spake by the Prophets and Apostles doth warrantise me to resolue on my Conclusion that the holy catholike church which we beleeue is the whole company of Gods electâ—and chosen You maruell perhaps why I propose this article of the ChristiaÌ„ faith to be discussed by disputation as though either any man stood in dout of it or things not douted of were to be handled as doutfull But if you consider that the true meaning therof which I haue opened most agréeable to the scripture most comfortable to the faithfull is condemned and accursed by the standerd-bearers of the church of Rome you will cease to maruell For in the Councell of Constance in which they condemned Iohn Husse for an heretike they condemned these two sayings as hereticall to be burned with him that there is one holy vniuersall Church which is the whole company of them that are predestinate and that the Church as it is takeÌ„ in this sense for the company of them that are predestinate is the article of our faith Which sayings of his to be counted vngodly it séemed strange to me and so much the more because I perceiued that the Fathers whose words the Papistes will séeme to make great account of when they serue their purpose did vse the same squire to measure out the Catholike church by For Clemens Alexandrinus dooth expresly call it the company of the elect into which are gathered the faithfull and iust whom God did predestinate before the creation of the world Likewise Ambrose hauing said that the honour of God the father is in Christ and in the church defineth the church to be a people which God hath vouchsafed to adopt to him selfe Furthermore Gregorie the Bishop of Rome affirmeth that all the elect are contained within the compasse and circuite of the church all the reprobate are without it And Bernard declaring the church to be the company of all the elect which company was predestinate before the world began doth touch it as a mysterie which he had learned of Paul and saith that he will boldly vtter it As for Austin a man of sharpest iudgement of them all he neither acknowledgeth any city of God but this elect church in his most lerned worke touching the citie of God and in another touching the catechizing of the vnskilfull he saith that all the holy and sanctified men which are which haue been which shal be are citizens of this heauenly Ierusalem and in another touching baptisme against the Donatists against whom he vrgeth the Catholike church most he confesseth that those things in the song of songs the garden inclosed the fountaine sealed vp the lilie the sister the spouse of Iesus Christ are meant of the holy and righteous alone who are Iewes inwardly by circumcision of the hart of which holy men the number is certaine praedestinate before the foundation of the world Wherefore if the Prelates of the Romish Church had had any reuerence I say not of the scriptuâ—es ouer which they play the Lordes as they list but of the Fathers of whom as of orphans they beare men in hand that they haue vndertooke the wardship they would neuer haue wounded or rather burnt in Husses person Clemens Alexandrinus Ambrose Gregorie Bernard and Austin who taught the same point that is condemned in Husse namely that the holy vniuersall Church is the whole company of the elect of God But it is I sée an vndouted truth which a learned man liking the Popes religion but not the Popes presumption hath set downe in writing that amongst the Popes and men like to Popes it is a sure principle If wrong he to be doon it is to be doon when thou maist get a kingdome by it For they wrest the holy catholike Church taught vs in the Creede from the right meaning to the intent they may be kings hoyse vp the sayles of their owne ambition in as much as they apply it like vnskilfull men if they doo it ignorantly impious if wittingly they apply it I say not to the Catholike Church but to the militant nor to that as it is choseÌ„ but as it is visible mingled with hypocrites and vngodly persons The cause why they do so is that all Christians by reason they beleeue the holy Catholike Church may be induced to thinke that the visible Church must be held for Catholike and a visible monarchie must be in the visible Church and the Pope is Prince of the visible monarchie and all Christians must be subiect to him as Prince For this to be the marke whereat the Popes shoote it is as cléere as the light by the verie Extrauagants as they are termed of the Canon law in that royall decrée of Boniface the eighth beginning with these wordes One holy Catholike Church Where from one
to vs. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stoode Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it I will beare with him as in the rest of his tauntes also Loosers must haue their wordes An other point he carpeth at is mine exposition of holy catholike church Which I hauing proued by the Papistes themselues that it must needes signifie the company of the chosen alone not mixt with wicked ones because by their catechisme it is the body of Christ all the body of Christ is quickned by his spirit which the wicked are not he replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickned by his spirite because some partes of it are so not all the body An aunswere somewhat straunge considering that the scripture which I had alleaged saith that al the body of Christ is quickned so As for that he noteth of the word Catholike that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sorte Philip Mornayes excellent giftes and fruitfull labors I reuerence and loue And both of vs hauing aymed at the trueth whether hath come neerer it let the Prophets iudge But if among Prophets in the church of Christ somewhat be reueiled to one that is not to an other this iustifieth not them who say they are Iewes are not but are the Synagogue of Satan Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion that the holy Catholike church which we beleue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen For touching that he addeth that he hath disproued it by shewing that the church is distinguished from hereticall assemblies by the name of Catholike he hath disproued it as soundly therby as if he should say that the Catholike epistles in the new Testament were not so called as generall writen to no certaine persons because that other writings are named catholike also to distinguish them from hereticall The third point he taketh vpon him to confute is an argument that I made to proue my third Conclusion All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of trueth some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour But he that telleth the trueth alwayes is more to be credited theÌ„ he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more theÌ„ is the Church And to this argumeÌ„t saith he I answere briefly that no words of the Church are the words of error that is that no erroneus thing is euer taught defined or approued by the Church in her Bishops Pastors teaching vniformly in the decrees of Councels chiefly of generall Councels in that which the Fathers teach with one consent in her head the Pope defining deliuering any thing publikely finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth though â—euerally some Bishops may priuately erre in teaching and one or moe Fathers may write some vntrue thing or be in some erâ—or and somewhat euen in CouÌ„cels without the decree it self may be said or reasoned inconueniently and to conclude the Pope may be ouerseene priuately in somewhat But this must be certes imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an aunswere vnto my argument then can I tell him a very briefe way to aunswere my Conclusions all with one word How By graunting them all to be true For though it were so that nether Bishops teaching vniformely might erre nor Fathers consenting nor Councels in decrees nor the Pope in publike and definitiue sentence which I both there else where haue shewed to be otherwise but if it were so yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers and Councels and the Pope himselfe may erre as he confesseth in this or that point and this or that maner he graunteth that which I said that some wordes of the Church are the wordes of errour But those wordes must certes saith he be imputed to the frailtie of men not to the Church her selfe Now certes M Doctor is a mery maÌ„ who can shift an argument off with such a iest As though the Church her selfe consisted not of men and therefore must needes offend so through frailtie the men offending so The fourth and last point wherewith he findeth fault is that amongst the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike Church I bring this that touching expounding of the Scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers coÌ„senting all in one Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers yea that I affirme that it is a marke and token of a false Church to admitte the ioint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture he dooth me great wrong For though by folowing too much breuitie in Latin I fell into obscuritie and said not so plainly that which I would and should as in the English now I haue yet that which I said dooth cleere me of his sclaunder as D. Fulke hath shewed whom I can better thanke for his defending of me then deserue the praise that he hath geuen me therein Nay I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome that the faulte which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their iudgemeÌ„t in that point For I declared straight in the words ensuing that first shee autoriseth thereby her owne practise as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture though contrarie to it selfe next she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolemen wil haue theÌ„ taken for waters of life lastly when some Fathers gainsay her she reiecteth them because they all consent not and admitteth them who doo make for her as hauing hit the mark Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one The former two import that I condemne the frensie of the Church of Rome mainteining her Dunses and deedes against the Fathers But the serpentes assembled in the Councell of Trent haue set downe that I spake of touching the expounding of the scripture so suttilly that a simple man would thinke they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture onely as the Fathers geue all with one consent Whereas in very trueth they do nothing lesse they disallow them rather For whether by the Fathers consenting all in one they meane the Fathers all simply none excepted that consent is a Phoenix and neuer will be found or whether they meane a good number of them as M. Hart expoundeth it they dissent froÌ„ senses agreed on by that number For example the scripture saith There shal be one flock one Pastour The Fathers Austin Chrysostome Cyrill Ierome Gregorie expounde this of Christ. The church of Romes
they do go with him or else the oth-maker meant not to bind you to it Let vs giue a passeport then vnto the Fathers It may be that the man was moued in conscience by light of truth to vary from them Let vs heare what moued him The same is not meant saith he by the keyes and by the wordes to bynd and loose as some men haue thought And why For all the Schoolemen are of opinion that to bynd and loose doth note a power iudiciall in the outward court onely to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court By the outward court he meaneth the consistorie wherein the church-discipline and censure is exercised By the inward court the conscience wherein a mans trespasses and sinnes are bound or loosed So in effect he saith that the power of remitting sinnes and censuring sinners were onely meant in the spéeches of Christ to the Apostles and not the most ample and large power of keyes promised to Peter by the iudgement of all the Schoolemen Which proofe though it cannot weigh as much for him as the Fathers against him yet herein his dealing is orderly and plaine that leauing the Fathers he cleaueth to the Schoolemen For when all is done the Schoolemen are the men that must vphold Papistrie with the fréendly helpe of the Canonists their bréethren The Scriptures and Fathers would be pretended for a shew to countenance the matter But they are like to images in olde buildings of antike worke which are framed so that with their shoulders they séeme to beare the roofe whereas that in déed doth rest on walles or pillars The Schoolemen and the Canonists the fountaines of the corruption which hath infected the Church of Christ the Schoolemen in doctrine by the opinions of Popery the Canonistes in discipline by the state of the Papacie the Schoolemen and the Canonists are the two pillars that vphold your Church as the house of Dagon in the which the Philistines triumph and insult ouer the faith and God of Samson What then if the Schoolemen whose oppositions of science falsely so called are noted by S. Paule that Timothee may auoid them who the most ofthem came with féete vnwashed into the Lordes sanctuarie who being ignorant of the tongues wherein the holy Ghost wrote great helpes to vnderstand his meaning searched not the sense of scripture in the scripture but in humaine sense and so expounded it thereafter what if they say that to bynd and loose doth make a iudge onely in the outward court to remit and retayne sinnes in the inward court and both import lesse then the keyes which open all in court and country I haue prooued the contrary by conference of the Scriptures You can not deny but that the Fathers teach the contrary Where is your discretion Who though the Scriptures as we proue the Fathers as you graunt do say it is so yet you say it is not so because the Schoolemen thinke not so As if you should say in a matter of state which is allowed and ordained by the Quéene and Councell that although they will it yet may it not be doone why because the Yeomen of the kitchin like it not Hart. If you beleeued so rightly as you ought with Catholikes you would not thinke so basely of Schoolemen as you do For as Melchior Canus writeth well and truely the contempt of Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of heresie the heresies of Luther of Wicklef of Melanchthon and in a word of all the Lutherans do seeme to haue flowed most from that fountaine euen from the despising of the Schoolemens iudgement But howsoeuer you estéeme them their common opinion when they all consent and agree in one is of such weight with vs that we account it a point of great rashnes and almost of heresie to dissent from them They haue not such ornaments offiner learning and the tongues as some in our daies haue but they haue the substance the pith of all sciences chiefely S. Thomas of Aquine one of the grauest and learnedst diuines that euer Christes church had whatsoeuer ignorant heretikes which vnderstand him not esteeme of him Rainoldes My iudgement of the Schoolemen is such as they deserue If Canus haue iudged more fauourably ofthem hée is to be borne with sith him selfe desired to be thought a Schoolman Though if I should graunt them as much as he doth that when they all agree in one they must be folowed they would not trouble vs greatly in many pointes of faith For they are at such contention for themost part and that about such matters that S. Paules reproofe of questions and strife of words neuer fel on any more iustly then on them But as Canus speaketh of Schoole-diuines and Schoole-diuinitie he and I dissent not though I bée against them and he for them in shew Sophocles the poet a writer of tragedies being asked ofhis frend why whē he brought in the persons ofwomen he made them alwaies good whereas Euripides made them badde because I quoth he doo represent women such as they should be Euripides such as they be So the matter fareth betweene me and Canus For he dooth paint out Schoolemen such as they should be and I such as they be I speake against them who peruerting the scriptures haue prophaned diuinitie with philosophie or rather sophistrie and yet are called Schoole-diuines whē they are neither Schollers in truth nor Diuines He accoūteth none a Schoole-diuine but him who reasoneth of God and thinges concernyng God fitly wisely learnedly out of the holie scriptures ordinances of God Now if none be a Schoole-diuine but such nor any diuinitie Schoole-diuinitie but that which is set on the foundations of the holie scriptures as Canus doth define it then shall I gladly both yéeld to Schoole-diuinitie follow Schoolediuines but I deny them to be Schoole-diuines whom you meant in citing Schoolemen Yea euē Thomas of Aquine whō your Popes set more by then by al the Doctors placing him as chiefest and first after the scripture and worthily for he was the first thorough-papist of name that euer wrote and with his rare gifts of wit learning and industrie did set out Popery most that he might well be praysed as the standerd-bearer of the fayth mainteined by the Councell of Trent euen him will I folow so lōg as he sheweth himself such a Schoolman as Canus prayseth to vs. But he sheweth not himself such a Schoole-man whē he doth as he doth oft so much we vnderstand in him kepe down the truth set vp errour either by mistaking the scripture against scripture or by holding the corruptions of faithfull men as incorrupt or by following the glimses of Philosophers as perfit light By mistaking the scripture through faultie translations or expositions of men By the corruptions of the faithfull in the practise of the church or some opinions of Fathers By the glimses of Philosophers in taking
groundes of Aristotle as principles of truth equall to the word of God I set not downe examples of all Popish errours growne by these occasions confirmed by Thomas and the Schoolemen Because in our conference they shall if God will haue each their due places Now for the present I grant that the contempt of the Schoolemēs doctrine on these considerations hath moued vs to departe from your Catholike errours and a Lutheran mislike not of Schoole-diuinitie but of this Schoole-diuinitie is a companion of our heresie and in our Uniuersities Oxford and Cambridge we studie scriptures more then it so that in some part you raile vpon vs iustly that heresie in England hath abandoned the studie of it For we had not beléeued the heresie of Christ and that new fangled man his Apostle S. Paule vnlesse we had contemned the Catholike fansies of the Schoolemē who as Demetrius striue against it But you shall neuer driue me with bugges of the names of Luther or Wicklef or Melanchthon or any else from holding that with them which they holde of God For though we reioyse not in names drawne from them with the which you presse vs but in the name of Christians into the which we are baptized yet I know no harme by them nor you I thinke set slaunders apart why we should be ashamed of them more then our fathers were of Caecilian of whom the Donatists called them Caecilianists But had they béene as euill as their enemies report them their liues stained with lewdnes their doctrine mixt with leauen no lesse then were the Pharisees S. Paule hath taught me to acknowledge my selfe euen a Pharisee if néede be not onely a Lutheran in that the Pharises teach a truth of Christian faith the resurrection of the dead Wherefore if the Schoolemen to returne to my purpose if all the Schoolemen had distinguished the keyes from the function of binding and loosing that function from the remitting and retaining of sinnes as you say they doo yet might not their credit ouerweigh the reasons which I haue laide against it But what if all the Schoolemen haue not done so As in déede they haue not What if they haue done the contrarie rather What shall we say of him who hath taught his toong so shamefully to lye as though he neither feared God nor reuerenced men First Peter Lombard the father of the Schoolemen doth define the keyes by the knowledge and the power of binding loosing and so he diuideth and handleth them accordingly The next after him Alexander of Ales treadeth the same steps and saith that to binde and loose is as much as to open and shut which is the whole power of the keyes Thomas of Aquine after him misliking Peter Lombard for requiring knowledge which some who claime the keyes haue not agreeth with him in the rest and maketh the power of binding and loosing to be the substance of the keyes Iohn Scot after him although he distinguisheth between the two courtes secret and open as you doo yet he dreameth not of any other keyes then of binding and loosing Yea that which cuts the throte of your supreme head Scot Thomas and Alexander affirme the same that I namely that the keyes promised to Peter in the sixteenth of Mathew were giuen to the Apostles in the twentieth of Iohn And these are accounted the chéefest of your Schoolemen and so estéemed amongst you that the first of them is called the Master of the sentences the next the Doctor irrefragable the third the Doctor Angelicall the fourth and last the Subtile Doctor What the rest of the blacke garde iudge of the matter I haue not enquired But it is likely they weare their Masters liueries chiefly sith Scot Thomas doo not square about it Which I thinke the rather because D. Stapleton though boasting that all the Schoolemen are of his side yet nameth not one whereas he vseth not to spare his margent for quotations when they whom he alleageth doo speake or séeme to speake for him Belike the Quéene must léese her right where there is nothing to be had Hart. You néede not finde fault that he quoteth not the names of the Schoolemen to proue his exposition when he proueth it by that which you like better euen by conference of scripture Rainoldes By conference of other plainer places of scripture Hart. No. But by a word of the same text euen and the coniunction which séeing that it coupleth things distinct and different in the former members and I say to thee and vpon this peter and the gates of hell and to thee will I giue the keyes therfore to binde and loose must differ from the keyes because the last clause is knit with and vnto the rest and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde Rainoldes And did not he thinke you go about to shewe and proue by this example that conference of scripture is but a bad meanes to come vnto the right sense of the scripture Doubtlesse such a conference as this at which he fumbleth is not the wisest way to finde it But I know not how when he medleth with scripture he séemeth halfe amazed as it were a creature in a straunge element For neither he remembreth his owne exception against vs that in the same sentence one worde hath sundrie senses often nor marketh that a coniunction is vsed as properly to couple togither agréeing things as different and both as here in one place nor considereth that things may differ each from other and yet be expounded each of them by other as the cause by the effects the whole by the parts nor weigheth the point in question that although in Matthew the wordes of Christ to Peter did differ in meaning as much as hee would haue them yet Christ by his generall commission in Iohn might performe ioyntly to all the Apostles that which hée promised to him And this to put the matter out of all cōtrouersie because it is the issue betwéene you and vs the verie wordes of the commission deliuered in the scriptures expounded by the Fathers obserued by the Schoolemen doo conuince so forcibly that the Iesuit whom I named the Popes owne professor most earnest proctour of the Popes supremacy was faine to séeke other shiftes whereby to helpe it but this he could not choose but graunt For hauing taught that the keyes promised to Peter were only two of order and of iurisdiction he declared that Christ did giue them both to his Apostles the key of iurisdiction ouer all the world in that he said to them As my Father sent me so doo I sende you which Cyrill and Chrysostom note vpon it the key of order in the wordes that immediatly follow Receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them whose sinnes soeuer ye reteine they are reteined Or if D. Stapleton loue himselfe so well that