Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n
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A42830
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Seasonable reflections and discourses in order to the conviction & cure of the scoffing, & infidelity of a degenerate age by Jos. Glanvill ...
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Glanvill, Joseph, 1636-1680.
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1676
(1676)
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Wing G830; ESTC R23378
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24,921
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115
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right and you in the wrong D. I did not trouble my self to do that A. And yet you withdrew from his Ministry upon it D. I did A. Then let me tell you you did a very rash uncharitable unchristian action We are not you know to separate from the conversation of any private person till we have told him his fault between us and him though the fault be plain and apparent much less may we divide from the Church and our Ministers till we have made the matter of offence known much less may we do it when the fault is not evident and certain It is no small matter to change the Guide that Gods providence and our Governours have set over us and to take others contrary to the Laws under which we live 't is a thing that before a man doth it he should consider well for here is at least the appearance of danger 'T is something to break Laws and disturb Governors and trouble Ministers and offend private Christians 't is something I say which a tender Conscience would not do without great consideration and without being fully resolv'd in the necessity of it and how then durst you do it upon a mislike of your Ministers Doctrine when you never did your self or him that right as to speak with him about it and to enquire what satisfaction he could give you in it This let me tell you plainly is an error greater than any you can pretend in his Doctrines it is a sin that hath a complication of many others Pride and Stomach Self-will Contempt of your betters and causeless Disobedience to your Governors You have now chosen ways and teachers upon your own head and if you happen to be mistaken in your choice as I much fear you are this confident proceeding and bold relying on your own understanding will render your sin and folly inexcusable D. I perceive you grow angry Fare you well A. Nay pray stay a little I am not so much angry as griev'd at your ways and have a question more to ask you on occasion of what you have told me and that is Whether you are to leave every Minister and Church as soon as any thing is said that is really erroneous in the lesser and unessential matters D. Should we not love the truth and fly from errors I think we ought to settle where the greatest purity is both in Doctrine and Worship A. And upon these terms we shall never settle any where at all For no Church pretends it self to be infallible but the Roman and there are no particular men or body of men but have their actual errors and mistakes So that according to this way of proceeding you must have departed from the Preaching and Communion of the holiest Men and best Churches of the most ancient yea and of all times In many things we err as well as offend all I have thus spoken to you freely in this matter I hope you will consider it But I have a little more to say of your not profiting under our Minister I am yet speaking to the first cause your prejudice against his person which in a manner you confess Where this is the Doctrine will not be heeded be it what it will and I have plainly observed this effect in you when I have seen you at Church sometimes at Funeral Sermons or other occasions D. What have you observed A. I have taken notice that though the Minister hath been speaking of the greatest matters in the most pathetical and moving way yet you have looked coldly insensibly and unconcernedly upon it whereas I remember when the men you now follow preacht in publick you used to listen with a very visible and affectionate attention to all even the poor mean impertinent and sometimes senseless things they deliver'd and to be very diligent in penning those Sermons when as these you manifestly slight by your carriage even when they are full of the weightiest and most useful truths And is not this to have the Faith of Christ with respect of persons And to come under St. Judes Character of the Separatists of his time who had mens persons in admiration This is not to honour Ministers for their works sake but to undervalue and slight their work for theirs whereas a Christian should joyfully hear Christs Truths and Laws and affectionately imbrace them for their own sake and his D. This I do for all your observations and so I hope you have done with me A. No I have more causes yet to shew of your not profiting under our Minister you told me he delivered Doctrines sometimes that you did not like He presseth the duties of Peaceableness Modesty of judgment Candor Subjection to Governors Charity c. And reproves the contrary vices and these are very proper and seasonable subjects for the needs of the Age But such Doctrines you do not like your party is wont to call the most modest â—nd necessary representation of â—hese matters railing and reâ—lecting on the godly So that â—hose duties and their contrary â—ins must not be toucht lest you wound the good People No Preach up the comfortable Doctrines of Gods seeing no sin in â—is chosen Salvation by Faith â—ithout Works and the Righteousâ—ess of Christ covering our Sins in the Antinomian sence Liberty of Conscience the Privileges of the Saints the marks of Regeneration that comprehend the Party and exclude all else the abominations of the Wicked that are for the Common-Prayer and Bishops O these are edifying Soul-refreshing Doctrines these you like because they flatter you in your ways Those thaâ— Preach thus shall have youâ— Company your Ears youâ— Hearts and your Purses wheâ— as such as Preach the sound searching Doctrine you cannoâ— endure you vilifie their persons and are prejudiced againsâ— their Preaching and be it neveâ— so powerful and profitable yoâ— can learn nothing from it becausâ— you will not Here 's the bottom of your phancied profiting bâ— your own Preachers and not bâ— ours But if a man should asâ— you in what principles of Religion you are better instructed what duties you are excited to and directed in that you coulâ— not learn from our Ministers I believe you would be able tâ— â—ive but a slender account of â—our profiting in those things in â—hich the true proficiency of a Christian doth consist But your profiting is your being gratified pleased and incouraged in the way of opposition and separaâ—ion you are in D. I cannot endure to hear â—our wicked and prophane discourse and therefore once more fare you well A. I know every thing is prophane in your account that doth not favour your Phantastical and Schismatical ways If you are angry at my honest freedom I must bear it as well as I can and so Your Servant E. He 'l do your errand to the Brotherhood and publish you for a very carnal wicked man A. That 's their usual way of answering when they are roundly opposed and of reforming when they are seriously
their phrases and so corrupted them by their false and fanatical conceits that their Gospel is quite another thing from the Primitive Apostolical Christianity and if so they Preach not Christ but their own dreams But that is too large a subject for us to discourse now That I may obtain your favour I will allow they Preach Christ I wish some do it not out of Strife and Envy yet certainly they are not the only men that do it nor is that fit to be a mark of distinction between them and our Ministers O but they Preach down Sin you tell us and that 's powerful Preaching and by that they affect the hearts and consciences of their hearers And 't is true those Teachers cry out against sin in the general with a great deal of earnestness declaring what a vile and odious thing sin is with wondrous zeal I cannot say with so much sence and judgment but then they seldome descend to particulars except in declaiming against the noted sins of others and such as they take their Governours in Church and State and those of opposite judgment to them to be guilty of So that their common places of invective are Idolatry Will-worship Superstition Humane Inventions Formality Persecution hatred of the Godly and such like things of which themselves are as guilty as any sort of men in the world though they think not so But for the sins with which they are generally and plainly chargeable those I mention'd before Malice Deceit Disobedience Pride Covetousness Backbiting Rebellion Schism Sacrilege and other such we seldom hear them declaim against those I do not remember that in ten years in which I was capable of observing in the late times that I ever heard one Sermon from any of them upon either of those subjects D. You may talk what you please but for my part I shall hear those men because I find I profit by them and I cannot by your Parish Minister A. That is the continual pretence for leaving our Churches when people have nothing else to say Pray therefore let you and I debate this matter a little You don't profit by our own Minister You do by those other Teachers As to the first let me ask you whose fault is it that you do not profit Doth not our Minister Preach the great Truths and Duties of the Christian Religion Don't you observe that he picks out the most sutable useful and awakening Subjects Doth he not represent the Doctrines with plainness and distinctness Doth he not press the duties with earnestness and affection doth he not lay down the great motives and encouragements and give us the true practicable directions to guide us in the performance You have heard him often what say you can you deny any of this D. I have no great fault I confess to find with the mans Preaching but yet methinks I am not so much affected with it nor can I profit by it A. It seems you do not profit but you cannot tell why therefore give me leave to tell you the reason First you have no kindness for the Ministers person because he conforms and it may be is not in all things of the same opinion with the men you admire D. Now you mind me of it I must tell you he is not Orthodox nor sound in his judgment and that I confess doth beget in me some dislike of him A. Orthodox is a word by which your men mean one of their own opinions and of these they are very fond and in doating on uncertain points that appertain not to the foundation they shew themselves very superstitious and lay ground for eternal Schism and even for Scepticism and Atheism it self For when disputed things are adhered to as certain and necessary Christian Charity will be destroyed and all things at last disputed But pray what do you make the measure of Orthodoxy Are not the belief of and adherence to the Scriptures the first Fathers and Councils the old Creeds and the Articles of the Church of England which in the Doctrines your men pretend to allow are not these enough to intitle a man Orthodox and all these our Minister teacheth and professeth D. But doth he not hold some opinions that are contrary to those grounds of belief A. I do not think he doth and I dare say he thinks he doth not In extra-essential matters the Pious and the Learned of all sorts have ever been of different judgments and are like so to continue to the worlds end I have in my time converst with men of all persuasions and yet scarce ever met any two though of the same general way and Communion that were in all things of the same mind And therefore if our Minister judgeth otherwise than you or I or this or that Divine in some out-points of Theology it is but as every thinking man else doth and we that hear him constantly know that he generally Preacheth the great acknowledg'd Truths and never troubles his hearers with private opinions But zealously and frequently reproves those that disturb the world with their particular phancies and declares continually against medling in the Pulpit with unnecessary controversies and notions so that if it were so that he had private opinions you and I need not be concern'd about them D. Well! but I have heard him Preach Doctrines I did not like A. That may be But I hope you do not take your liking or disliking to be the standard of Doctrines fit to be Preach'd or not D. Nay I mean Doctrines that were Erroneous which was one reason I left his Ministry A. Erroneous as you thought you would have your judgment to be the measure of truth and falshood Do you not think you are in some things mistaken D. I know I am fallible A. And do actually err in many things C. It may be so A. And yet you stick to all your opinions with that stiffness as if you were infallible and condemn every one for erroneous that in the least differs from you This let me tell you is great pride and immodesty and renders people very unteachable when they will not receive or bear any thing but what is just according to their own phancy and preconceiv'd opinion nor be taught to understand any thing better than they do already as if their knowledg was perfect and their minds had no need of information when as most commonly such presumptuous persons are very ignorant and the knowledg they pretend is but a confused heap of vain imaginations which they pickt up by chance and have no truth or coherence in them D. Every man must judg by the best understanding he hath and so did I when I judg'd your Minister to Preach Erroneous Doctrine A. And that you say was one reason of your withdrawing from him D. Yes A. But did you ever go to him to discourse the matter with him Perhaps you mistook his meaning or it may be he might have made it appear that he was in the