following Treatise proues the contrarie then it vvere good for euery church that will auoid communion with profane men to meete in priuate and then to shut their dore when their own compagnie is meet together else I cannot see how they can auoid hauing communion with wicked men to wit if beare hearing be an acte of communion Secondly as this hearing is not against any Article of their faith so likewise it was not in the iudgement of the church esteemed as a thing that might not be borne withall The letter you shall find after the Treatise this may appeare by a copy of a letter which we haue heer following published where the church in the counsell which they giue to the church of London do sufficiently make it appeare that their iudgement did manifestlie differ from those which now haue made this breach and which is well to be marked by the reader how that the church when this letter was write enioyed the Pastor and their company was fiue tymes greater then it was when this breach was made because these men in his their error are vvilling to retraine it and not being able to make any sufficient reply to the answere made in this Treatise to their obiections though the manuscript therof hath bene in their hands for many yeares yet because they will find somthing to say more then others haue done heretofore though of lesse force therefore they haue ioyned some new obiections which both the seducer and the seduced do thinke are vnanswerable therfore it will not be amisse for vs to propound them and to giue some answere to them that so if their stomachs serue they may reply to all at once First they obiect and say that we hold the church of England to be a false church and the Ministers thereof to be Antichristian and yet we go thither to worship the true God Before we answere directly to this objection we shall intreate the Reader and themselues to consider of this that followes First A church may be said to be false in diuers respects and according to those respects vve are to haue diuers Considerations thereof as first a church may be said to be false in respect of outward order to vvit vvhen a church is gathered together not according to the rule of Christ neither in their outward gouernement do they conforme therevnto now this church cannot be said to be the church of Christ being thus erected and gouerned contrary to the rule of Christ but is false and Antichristian and yet notwithstanding the faith professed by this church and the doctrines taught in this church may be sound and according to God Secondly a church may be false not onely in respect of outward order but likewise in respect of faith and doctrine Now to this latter vve counsell no man to go because from thence no good can be expected and that is the esteeme vve haue of the church of Rome But now as in a true church in respect of outward order there may be manie false doctrines taught so in a church that is false in respect of outward order there may be manie sound and seasonable truths taught and this esteeme vve haue of the preaching in England Namelie that the doctrine there taught according to the Articles of their faith is sound and the effects of it hath appeared in the vvorking of faith in the hearts of manie thousands For the outward order or meeting there as a church that concernes themselues and those that are in vnion vvith that church estate but not all that heare them Now that worshipping of God which consists in hearing his word is warrantable for vs to doe in England we proue it by this argument That preaching which ordinarily begets men to the faith of Christ may lawfully be heard But the preaching of many Ministers in the Church of England hath and doth ordinarily beget men to the faith of Christ. Therefore the preaching of many Ministers in England may lawfully be heard The first part of this sillogisme is proued out of Rom 10. where the Apostle telling what is the ordinary vvay God vses to beget men to the faith of Christ telles vs it comes by hearing of the vvord of God preached if faith comes by hearing the vvord of God preached to vvit if that be the outward meanes then there is no question but that a man may heare such preaching and any man may blush for shame that shall deny this so that the major part of the argument is cleare And for the Minor parte they cannot deny it no more then a man at noon day can deny the sunne to shine for if any man make question whether faith comes ordinarily by the preaching and hearing in England it is a great question vvether they euer had faith or no yet because some are so grosse as to deny this we will therefore proue the contrarie by this Argument That preaching and hearing which makes them which were altogether carnall and so not capable of a church-estate to become saints so fit for a church-estate That preaching must needs beget men to the faith But the preaching and hearing in England made them that were vnfit carnall to become saints and so fit members to the true church which were not so before Therfore the preaching in England and hearing the same doth beget men to the faith That the preaching and hearing in England hath done this Witnesse the church of Leyden and of Amstelredam Let them tell vs where they receiued their faith if they say they had it not till they ioyned in these bodies how could they then be true to their owne grounds that none but visible Christians are fit matter for the church vvhereas none can be so esteemed except in the iudgement of charitie we iudge them to haue true faith But some of these that haue made this diuision haue not denyed but faith is wrought by the preaching and hearing in England and yet which is wonderfull contradiction they say it is not the vvord of God as it is there preached so that it seemes there is something besides the vvord of God which is an ordinary meanes to beget men to the faith and there is another vvord besides Gods vvord that vvill do it the like absurditie hath sildome bene heard from any that professe them selues to be Christians and that they may not seeme to say this vvithout some reason marke the reason that they bring to proue it say they we do deny that to be the vvord of God as it is there preached by a false Ministry though the vvord it selfe be of God yet as it is by them preached it is none of Gods vvord so Gods vvord here stands at fast and loose it is Gods vvord and it is not Gods vvord as if they should say it is Gods word if M r. Canne shall preach it but if another that is a Minister in England preach the same it is none of Gods vvord so
refuse the fellovvship of churches in that vvhich is good for any vveaknes in them of one sort or other And this vve haue so plainlie and plentfullie commended vnto vs both by the Prophets yea by Christ himselfe in the Iewish church and Apostles and Apostolicall men in the first christian churchs in which many errours euils of all kindes vvere more then manifest and the same oft times both so farre spread and deeply rooted as the reforming of them vvas rather to be vvished then hoped for as that no place is left for doubting in that case by any vvho desire to follovve their holy steps in faith tovvards God and charitie tovvards men and effectuall desire of their ovvne edification The objections of the former sort follovv 1. OBIECTION There is danger of being seduced and misledd by the errours taught in the astemblies ANSWERE 1. We must not loose the benefite of many main trueths taught Matth 5. chap 23. for daunger of some few errours 2. Cor 11. 19. ◠Ioh. 4. 1. 3. Speciallie in lesser matters Let such read Parker of church policy lib. 1. c. 39 This vvere to feare the deuill more then to trust God 2. There vvere in the Ievvish church in Christs time and in divers of the Apostolicall churches aftervvards more greater errours taught then are in any or ail the churches of England of vvhich also there are not a fevv vvhich if their ministers did as fully and faithfully teach and practize all trueths as they keepe themselues carefully from errours might compare in this busines vvith any reformed church in Europe 3. This exception hath its vvayt against the hearing of Priests and Iesuites speciallie by the vveaker sort and lesseable to discerne of things that differ But not against many ministers of the church of England 2. OBIECTION He that in any thing pertakes with that church in vvhich sinnes knowne are suffred vnreformed pertakes in all the sinnes of that church as he that sweares by the Alter sweares by the offrings vpon it vvhich it sanctifies Matth. 23. 19. 20. ANSWERE I partake not in the sinnes of any how great or manifest soeuer the sinnes bee or hovv neer vnto me soeuer the persons bee except the same sinnes either be committed or remain vnreformed by my fault Othervvise Christ our Lord had been invvrapped in the guilt of a vvorld of sinnes in the Ievvish church vvith vvhich church he communicated in Gods ordinances liuing and dyeng a member therof If my brother sinne a scandelous sinne and I by just order make complaint thereof to the church I haue done my duty It appertaines to the church to excommunicate him if he repent not but not to me except Popelike I vvould make my selfe the church I am guitty of the euill in the common wealth familie for the redressing vvherof I do not my duty in my place vvhich if I do in the church as I can I am free from the sinnes done and suffred there vvhich sinnes and euils I can no more be said to suffer vvanting povver to reforme them then to suffer it to blovv or rain because I hinder it not But the proofe of the assertion from Matth. 13. is of admirable deuise Hovv doth the church sanctifie the sinne of the sinner as the Alter doth the offering of the offerer The Alter makes that to become actually an offering or holy gift vvhich before vvas not an offering actually but onely gold silver or other materiall So doth not the church make any mans sinne to become his sinne vvhich it vvas not before but onely suffers the sinne that vvas But to strain the strings of this imagined proportiō to make them meet and to suppose the church in a sence to be as the Alter yet this only follovves therevpon that as hee vvho partakes vvith the Alter in the vpholding of the offring partakes vvith the offring so he that partakes vvith the church in the vpholding of any euill hath his part in the euill also And this I graunt vvillingly but deny as a most vain imagination that euerie one that partakes vvith a church in things lavvfull joynes vvith it in vpholding the things vnlavvfull to be found in it Christ our Lord joyned vvith the Ievvish church in things lavvfull and yet vpheld nothing vnlavvfull in it 3. OBIECTION But this course of hearing vvill offend weak brethren not persuaded of the lawfullnes of it ANSWERE 1. It vvill offend more and many of them vveakere and that more greeuously if it be not performed Secondly It is an offence taken and not giuen seeing the thing is in it selfe good in its kinde commaunded by God and in that perticuler by men in authoritie and directlie tending to mine edification and not like vnto eating of flesh or drinking of vvine or the like things of indifferent nature and left to my free libertie to vse or not to vse And these are the principall objections vpon the former ground they vpon the latter follovv There is in the hands of manie a threatise published by a man of note containing certain reasons to proue it vnlawfull to heare or haue spirituall communion with the present ministerie of the church of England This hath been ansvvered but indeed sophisticallie and in passion Neither hath the ansvverer much regarded vvhat he said or vnsaid so he might gainsay his adversarie With that ansvvere vvas joyned an other directed to my selfe and the same doubled pretending to proue Publique communion vpon priuat but not pressing at all in the body of the discourse that consequence but proceeding vpō other grounds and in trueth consisting of a continued equivocation in the terms publique licence gouernment ministry and the like dravvne to another sence then either I intended them or then the matter in question vvill permit Whereas he that vvill refute another should religiously take hold to his aduersaries meaning and if in any perticuler it be not so plainly set dovvne should spell it as it vvere out of his vvords But it is no new thing euen for learned and godly men to take more then lavvfull libertie in dealing vvith them against vvhom they haue the aduantage of the times favouring them like the vvind on their backs But God for bidde I should follovv them heerin I vvill on the contrarie vse all plaines and simplicity as in the sight of God that so I may make the naked trueth appeare as it is to the christian readers eye vvhat in me lieth And for the treatice mentioned it must be obserued hovv both in the title and body of the booke the authour confounds as one hearing of and haueing spirituall communion vvith the ministery c. vvhich as it is true of such as stand in spirituall and politicall church-vnion vvith a church and the ministerie thereof vvho accordingly haue church communion in the publique acts and exercises of that church so is it not true of others vvhich are not members of not in ecclesiasticall vnion and combination
to a foregoing church-vnion vvhereas to partake in the Lords supper imports communion in both lavvfull in him that is a lavvfull church-member and vnlavvfull in him that is not in such a church-state 8. OBIECTION But it is the order of the church of England that all that heare are and so are reputed members of that church ANSWERE I deny that there is any such order Let the lavv or cannon either be shevved that so orders things Excommunicates are permitted to heare sermons though not deuine seruice as they call it 2. What if there vvere such an order It no more either made or declared mee to be a member there then doth my dvvâ—lling in such or such a parishe make me a member of that parish-church vvhich latter is indeed the lavv and order there If the church vvith me should make a lavv cannon or order that all that come in heare me preach should thereby become members of it vve vvere the more foolish in making such an order but they neuer a vvhit the nearer either for membershippe or communion 9. OBIECTION He that hears appears to haue communion with the church ministry and all appearance of euill is to be avoided 1. Thess 5. 22. ANSWERE The scripture is not to be vnderstood of all that appears euill to others out of an erronius and deceaued judgement for then vve must abstain from almost all good seing there are some to vvhom almost all good seemes euill but it is meant either of the doctrine in Prophesie of vvhich I haue some probable suspition of vvhich the Apostle seemes properly to speak or of that vvhich appears euill to a rightly discerning eye By this imagined exposition I might not hyre a house in a parishe vvhere I vvere not knovvne seeing thereby I appeare a parish-member 10. OBIECTION None can heare without a preacher nor preach except he be sent Rom. 10 14. 15. Therefore I cannot lawfully heare him that hath not a lawfull sending ANSWERE 1. That conclusion is neither in text nor sound I may lavvfully hear him that hath no lavvfull calling as I haue formerly shevved 2. The Apostles meaning there is not to shevv vvhat is vnlavvfull but vvhat is impossible It is impossible to beleeue vvithout hearing and impossible to heare vvithout preaching and impossible to preach vvithout the sending there intended that is vvithout Gods gracious vvork of Prouidence in raising vp of men by enabling and disposeing them to preach for the effectuall calling of the elect of God of vvhich he there speaks If any make question vvhether faith come by the hearing of the preachers there it is more questionable whether they themselues vvant not faith vvhich are so barren of charitie in vvhich true faith is fruitfull If faith come by the preaching in England to any it follovves therevpon that such preachers are sent in the Apostles sence 11. OBIECTION The sheep of Christ heare his voice but strangers they will not heare Ioh. 10. 3. 8. 27. ANSWERE Christ doth not there speak of the outvvard hearing but of the hearking vnto that is as he expounds himselfe vers 3. 4. 5. 14. 16. 16. 27. of the knowing and beleeuing of his voice following it So chap. 9. I told you before and ye did not hear that is not beleeue vers 27. And God hears not sinners vers 31. that is approues not of them and their prayers So chap. 11. I know that thou bearest me alvvaies and a thousand times in the scriptures The drift of Christ in the place is without question to shew the difference betvveene such as vvere his sheep and such as vvere not his sheep His sheep heard his voice and they vvhich vvere not his sheep heard not his voice But they vvhich vvere not his sheep nor heard his voice as there he speaks heard him preach outvvardly as vvell as the rest vvhich vvere his sheep Besides they vvhich vvere his sheep and vvould not heare strangers in the Lords sence heard outvvardly those strangers preach and by hearing them discouered them to be strangers that is false prophets The strangers of vvhom he speaks vvere of the true church and of Israel but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule Such strangers none should heare that is beleeue and follovv 12. OBIECTION The scriptures both of the old and new testament vvarn Gods people of false Prophets vvhich the ministers of that church are haueing an vnlawfull calling ANSWERE 1. They vvarn Deut. 13. 3 not to hearken vnto them 1. Ioh. 4. 1 nor to beleeue them but to try them which without hearing them cannot be done Not that all false Prophets are to be heard by all that they might try them for that vvere to tempt God but I novv ansvvere the scriptures cited vvhich speake of Prophets in the true church vvhich vvere to be heard till they vvere orderly repressed or at least plainly discouered by their doctrine heard to be such 2. No mans vnlawfull outvvard calling makes him a false Prophet nor his outvvard lavvfull calling a true but his true or false doctrine only makes him a true or false Prophet A man may haue a lavvfull office of ministerie and yet be a false prophet if he teach false doctrine so may he be a true prophet if he teach the trueth though in an vnlavvfull and Antichristian state of ministerie Numb 2â— and 25. Yea Balaam vvas both a false prophet in cursing in purpose vvhere God would haue him blesse Ios. 13. 22 in teaching 2. Pet. 2. 15. 16. Balack to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel Rev. 2. 14. and yet a true prophet in blessing Israell by the spirit of prophecie Num. 25. 5. 9 10. c. and chap. 24. 2. 3. c. and vvord of the Lord put into his mouth He is a prophet that speaks or declares a thing past present or to come And to prophecie in our sence is nothing els but to speak to edification exhortation 1. Cor. 14. 3. and comfort He that doth this is a true Prophet He that speaks the countrary a false It vvere good if they in vvhose mouthes the chalenge of false prophets is rifest would better wey how themselues expound and applie the scriptures in their propheciengs lest notvvithstanding any outward lawfull church state they be deeper vvounded by the rebound of their accusations this vvay then their aduersaries 13. OBIECTION The Lords forbids Iudah going to Gilgal or to Bethel Hos. 4. 15. 16. ANSWERE The meaning is plain and the vvords expresse that they vvere not to go thether to offend and play the harlot in ioyning to Idols vers 15. 16. 17. This I graunt is to be done in no place but deny any such thing to be done in the hearing by me pleaded for The scriptures euery vvhere forbid the going or comming to such places or persons as in or by vvhich some euill is done to vvit for the doing of any thing euill or vnlawfull in or vvith
and prosecute vvere rashe and rude at the least But now if the person can in respect of other good things by the vvord of God vtmost extent of charity be deemed to haue any the least interest in the grace of the gospell to censure such a one as an idolator theefe murderer and the like is against both charitie and godlines The Apostle 2. Cor. 6. teacheth vs to iudge and speak otherwise vvhere he calls such of the Christian Corinthians as by occasion of friends corruptions of times were drawne to partake in the Idoll feasts and tables of deuils of vvhich they had also before been by him most seriouslie admonished 1. Cor. 8. 10. Righteousnes light Christ beleeuers and the Temple of God opposed to vnbeleeuers vnrighteousnes c. As it is one thing to haue sinne which if we say we haue not we deceaue our selues the trueth is not in vs and another thing to be sinners in the Scriptures phrase 1. Iohn 1. Psal. 1. 5. Iohn 9. 3. 29. so all that practise through ignorance or infirmitie some acts lesse discernable of Idolatrie are not Idolators but such in vvhom it raigneth in action or disposition Lastlie If all in the church of England and of Mr. Iakobs church be idolators as the Apostle there speaks then are they all excluded from the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 6. 9. 10. and are vnder the curse and condemnation of the law vvhich censure the most rigid this vvay haue disclaimed as rash and vnjust Secondlie Whether Mr. Iakobs congregation be a true church or no We haue so judged and the Elders of the church at Amstelredam and the body of the church with them as we conceaue and so do vve judge still hauing sent you vvith our letter a copie of certain papers in which that matter is handled Thirdly Whether Mr. Staresmore and his wife are receaued and retained in our churches by that couenant which they made with God in Mr. Iakobs church or whether they haue renounced it as false and made an other {reversed} Answere Their receauing heare was only by that couenant made with God and the church there continued and none otherwise the persons hauing testimonie and dismission from the church there and so were in the vertue of the same couenaut by vs commended and conueyed to that other church in Amstelredam Fourthly To your fourth demaund about your carriage towards your Teacher other brethren renouncing communion with you it is both vnseasonable now to answere and difficult for vs who are ignorant of such circumstances and maners of cariage by them as by which offences are much agreeuated or extennated Fifthly Whether their pretence of hauing the trueth be sufficient to make them the church and to warrant their aboue mentioned dealing {reversed}â—Š Answere Neither the pretence of hauing nor the hauing of the truth indeed makes the church in the sence in hand no more then the hauing some other perticuler commendable vertue by some makes them the church excluding them that want its As Reuelat. 2. and 3. The visible and ministeriall church is the whole body euery member thereof Not some parts Act. 20. 1. Cor. 14. 23. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. of which some of these members haue more comelines and some lesse The church is a state spirituall and politicall not personall error therefore or other sinne makes any cease to be a member therof And if the greater number be members still though inerrour the smaller cannot be the body Besides if some particuler sinne or errour make the greatest part not to be members then much more two or three perticulers Which therevpon the church might not censure for any errour or other sinne to vvit if they vvere not members Lastly this confirms that popish and presumptuous ground that the church cannot erre Sixtly Whether women haue voyces vvith men in the judgments of the churchs Answere The Apostle teacheth plainlie the contrarie 1. Cor. 14. 34. 1. Tim. 2. 14. and though he speak perticularlie of propheâ—ing and teaching yet layes he downe a more generall rule forbidding all such speaking as in vvhich authoritie is vsed that is vsurped ouer the man which is done speciallie in iudgements And if a woman may not so much as moue a question in the church for her instruction hov much lesse may she giue a voyce or vtter a reproofe for censure And this answere vve return at the length brethren to your letter and demands therewith our louing salutations in the Lord. In vvhom vvishing your peace and vvellfare we rest Your louing brethren Iohn Robinsz and church with him Leyden 5. April 1624. FINIS