Fleete Mr. Androvves Iohn Greenwood in the Fleete Mr. Hutchinsō Do Sarauea Daniell Studley in the Fleete M r. Grauet Walter Lane in the Fleete M r. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse M r. Iudson Iohn Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison Iohn Barrens in the gatehowse Do Blague Iohn Cranford in the gatehowse M r. Herd Richard vvheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine in the gatehowse A brief answeare to such Articles as the Bishopps haue giuen out in our name vpon which articles their Priests were sent and injoyned to Confer with vs in the seuerall prisons wherin we are by them detayned HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly cōtriued may seme to be framed in respect of the sclaunderous priuiledged pamphletts heretofore dispersed through the whole land by the enemies of Christ suppressors of all righteousnes to bring vs in contempt with all men yet if we consider the end more sereously vvay the present drift of theis BBs theire priests and new reconciled Reformists set a worke in this busines we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles haue allso togeather vvith them constituted commaunded certaine theire priests twise euery weeke during this Lent to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination or auriculer confession to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts vvhose testimonie verdict of suborned vvitnesses they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites vve in the meane tyme not suffred eyther to set downe owre ovvne positions neyther before equall vvytnesses to ansvver or discouer theire false allegations Wherfore vve thought it good being all close prysoners to relate vnto all men that desire the truth ovvre simple iudgments in theis doctrines vvherat they thus snarrle vve resting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferēt vvitnesses set dovvne recorded if vve might obteine the same vppon the dispence of ovvre lyues yea the God of heauen knovveth hovv vvilling ready vve are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing vvherin vve err vvhen it shalbe shevved vs by the booke of God First then vnderstand that theis accusers affirme theis to be ovvre positions vvhich they haue framed of theire ovvne braine vvithout ovvre knovvledg much lesse cōsent Secondly they pronunce vs nevve sectories although vve hold no other thing in iudgment or practize more then Christ his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures and cōfirmed by theire examples deathes And vvhether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lavves ordinances fetched from Rome or deuised by themselues be novv to be holden nevve doctrines let all men consider Thirdly they call vs Recusants hauing neither forsaken the fellovvship of the true Church or least member of Christ that vvalketh in the Communion of the faith submytting himself to be guyded by Christs lavves ordinances nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs. Only vve according to the Commandment of God haue forsakē all sprirituall fellovvship vvith theire false Church as also the inuetions popery yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery confused Babell euen that vvorld of vvickednes Out of vvhich the Lord dravve fourth all his elected 1. That it is not lavvful to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer THe Lords prayers vve take to be those prayers vvhich himself offred to his father in his ovvne person as he vvas man vppō earthe according to his present occasions the will of his father poured fourth The forme of prayer gyuen to his Disciples to all posterities by the record of the Euangelists we hold acknowledg most holy Canonicall scripture to be vsed of all Churches in that vse and to that end for which owre Sauioure gaue it Namely to be the perfect patterne rule of all owre prayers vvhether deprecations supplications thanksgyuing c. Not that we are bounde to the very vvords saying ouer or asking all things therin conteined euery tyme we pray nether that the words red or sayd ouer by rote can be called a prayer seing all prayer must proceede of Gods spyrit from owr owne harts according to owre present necessities So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text seing Christ neuer did or could vse it as his owne prayer For there is petition made for remission of synnes he neuer trespassing And where he saith we hold it vnlawfull to be vsed publiquelye in the Church for a fet forme of prayer he sclaundereth vs vve graunt it to be the absolute perfect only forme of all true prayers If anie demaund further vvhether vve may vse the vvords therof eyther wholy as they are set downe or anie sentence of them in prayers we answer by explication or application tending to edifying expressing owre present estate vve may The same questions may be demaunded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalmes dyuerse other scriptures to which vve aunswere that we restraine no man of the vse of anie parcell or sentence of Scripture rightly applyed Yet herevppon is not iustified eyther theire fyue tymes saying ouer of theire Pater Noster in theire English morrow masses nor yet theire superstitious repetition of theis words in the conclusions of theire prayers after or before theire sermons vvhen as they say they knowe not vvhat to aske and therfore pray as Christ hath taught them by repeting these vvords vvhich thei call the Lords prayer where in thei lye 2. That all sett stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord and not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies FOr such formes of prayer as are Canonicall such as be commended to vs by Gods spirit in his word we haue already in the former Article set downe the true holy vse of them to be for instruction c. But that anie man should thrust his deuises into the worship of God christian assemblies we wonder at theire ignorant presumption and much more that they dare be so bold as to set stint the holy ghost what vvhen hovv manie vvords to vtter in prayer So that your annuall monthly dayly morning and euening prayers vvherin you bynde mens consciences to the prescript repetition of your ovvne vvords as an offring to God vve hold them by the euidēce of Gods booke not only a babling but apochriphall Idolatrous contrary to the second Commaundmēt bringing the vvrath of God vppon the imposers receauers For by theis Idolls you take avvay the vvhole lyberty fredome true vse of spirituall prayer yea you stop the springs of the lyuing fountaine vvhich Christ hath sealed in his Church 3. That the publique prayers vvorship of God in England as it is by lavve in the Church of England established is false superstitious popish not so be vsed in anie
Christian Conngregation IF Christ Iesus the author fiinisher of owre faith haue constituted confirmed the ministration of the new Testament perfect for all ages persons how to serue him according to his vvyll then your liturgye drawen out of the Popes portuis is not only Idolatrous superstitious a deuised vvorship the inuentions precepts of men in stead of the liuelye graces present guifts of his spirit wherby men call vppō his name but a bondle of infinite grosse blasphemous errors yea euen a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or counterfeit gospell not only set aboue the gospell of Christ but dyrectly instituting an other ministry ministracōn then Christ hath commended commaunded to his Church till his apearing in the clouds to iudgmēt vnto vvhich Idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered patched errors all your ministery is sworne vvherby they renounce Christs Testamēt must administer by this liturgye babling ouer the seuerall parcells therof as thei are lymited prescribed stinted from yeare to yeare day to day By which liturgye or new gospell the priests of that order are approued sufficient without preaching or the guyft of teaching and the repeating of that 〈◊〉 booke accompted sufficient for all mens saluation And if anie do preache his doctrines must be conformed to the orders hereof The errours in this Idolatrous booke conteyned vvould not be easely repeated in half a day yet this vve are able to proue that it instituteth apointeth another ministery ministration in all points then Christs Testament hath confirmed not only peruerting making of no effect the ordinances of God concerning the vvorship of his people but establishing another in the place therof as in theire prayers Sacraments fasts feasts offrings purifications maryages buryalls c. manifestly apeareth 4. That the Church of England as it is novve established is no entire member of the Church of Christ. THe Common vvealth of England or parish assemblies as they gennerally stand vnder subiect vnto the aforesaide vvorship ministery consisting of all sorts of vncleane spirits Atheists papists hereticks c. are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ or communion of saincts and so by outward profession they neither being gathered from the vvorld to the obedyence of Christ neither hauing power or freedom to practice Christs Testament as the truth is reuealed are no entire member of the body of Christe 5. That the gouernment of the Church of England as it is novv established is no lavvfull gouernment nor Christian but antichristian and popish HAuing in the former articles sufficiently proued theire worship ministerye to be Idolatrous forbidden in the second Cōmaundment as all apochripha inuentions of men It is euident to all men confessed of owre enemies that the ministers lawes other ordinācs wherby the parish assemblies are gouerned are not such as Christ apointed to his Church of Pastor Teacher Elders Deacons c. But by such officers Courts Cannons as are hatched from Rome as Archb. L. BBs c. whose titles office or administracōns were neuer heard of in the scriptures 6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme the Lords Supper as they are administred in the Church of England be not true Sacraments THere neither being lawfull ministery to administer nor faithfull holye free people orderly gathered vnto the true true outward professiō of Christ as we haue before shewed and consequently no Couenant of grace the Sacraments in these assēblies of Babtisme and the Lords supper gyuē vnto Atheists papists vvhoremasters drunkerds theire seede delyuered also after a superstitious maner according to theire liturgye and not according to the institution rules of Christs Testament are no true Sacraments nor seales vvith promise 7. That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of Babtisme ministred novv in the Church of England but are rather to be kept vnbaptized NO godly Christians seperat from the false Church ought to bring theire infants to theis parish assemblies to be baptised into that felowship or profession by that ministery or according to that order but in the true Church to seeke the Seale of the Couenant so sone as it may be had by the true ministerye in the Congregation according to Christs institution we still affirme 8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouerne the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lavves ecclesiasticall nos contrarye to Christ lavves ALL true Christians vvithin her Maiesties dominions acknowledg her Maiestie to be the supreame maiestrate gouernesse of all persons with in the Church vvithout the Church yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall ciuill yet allwayes vvith this Caueat that no flesh may presume to add anie thing to his vvord or diminish anie thing from it This vve make no scruple to affirme 9. That the lavves ecclesiasticall alreadye established by the aucthoritie of the Queene Realme be not lavvfull SEing the ecclesiasticall lavves Canons Iniunctions Articles Courts ministery c. vvherby these parish assemblies be gouerned and guyded are not deryued from the booke of God or can be vvarranted therby or grounded theruppon but are the inuentions of men vvhich tourne avvay the truth abrogating Christs lavves ordinances yea seing they are culled out if not whollie receaued from that great Antichrist his Canons orders diuelish polecies as most malignant oppositions against the vvill of God confirmed perfected vvith Christs bloud miracles from heauen therfore these Canons Iniunctions articles hovv plawsible soeuer they agree to the vvorld yet are they the execrable wares of Antichrist Statuts of Omry and not to be receaued or obeyed of anie that loue the Lord Iesus Christ. 10. That if the Prince or Maiestrate vnder her doe refuse or defer to reform such faults as are amisse in the Church the people may take the reforming of them in theire ovvne hands before or vvith out her aucthoritie NEyther do we looke for anie reformation of Babell that is this world of confusion your false Church neither do we take vppon vs to intermeddle with the Magistrats sword but keepe owre selues in thought word deed within the lymitts of owre calling in all dutifull obedyence to owre prince superiours for conscience towards God and teach men both by vvord example so to vvalke But that all that vvylbe saued must forsake the false Church by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue vvorship God aright in his true Church vve hold it so true a doctrine as that there is no other meanes or promise of saluation Nether may vve eyther neglect the true seruice of god nor practise of anie part therof or haue fellowship vvith the works of darknes though the prince should inhibit the one commaund the other no herein vve shew no disobediēce to magistrats vvhose displeasure vve must rather vndergoe then fall into the hands of the euerlyuing
god vvho vvill abide no halting For the vvarrant of those things vve haue the doctrine of the prophetts Christ his Apostles who teach vs in this case to suffer persequutioÌ„ as they that feare him that can cast both soule bodye into hell fyre and if the magistrate punish vs for vvel doing vve are far from resistance vvillingly vndergoing vnto death theire displeasure But god forbid they should be guylty of owre innocent bloud by such sclaunderous reports vvithout due examinacoÌ„n of the truth It is these vvicked false prophetts that trouble the land that oppose the magistrats povver against Christ ciuill against spirituall Prince against Subiects 11. That the presbiterie or Eldership may for some causes after admonition if there ensue not reformation excommunicat the Queene WE detest that Antichristian povver of that person or presbiterye vsurping aucthoritie ouer the vvhole Church as you others do exercise in your popish Courts secret Classes devised Synods of priests as though they vvere Lords ouer the heritage The true officers of Christ vsurp no tyrannicall iurisdiction ouer the leaste member neither do anie publique thing vvithout the consent of the vvhole Congregation much lesse may the presbiterie excommunicat anie person by theire sole povver seing Christ hath gyuen this povver to the vvhole Church and not solye to the presbiterie The Prince also if he vvilbe held a meÌ„ber of Christ or of the Church must be subiect to Christs censure in the Church That Congregation then wherof the prince is a member may excommunicat the obstinat offendors therin vvithout exception of person read of in the whole Booke of God yea great iniurye to Christ his Church and to the prince it were to exempt them from the meanes of theire owne saluation for which end this power is only gyuen ought to be so exercised Neither doth it derogate diminish or take away anie part of the magistrats power or aucthoritie except you vvould haue no lawefull magistracye that is not of the Church or that the spirituall power of Christ in his Church should disanull the magistracy which were diuelish doctrine 12. That the Church of England as it novv standeth by lavve established professeth not a true Christ nor true religion that it hath not ministers indeed nor Sacraments indeed AS for your Religion Church Sacraments c. we haue before shewed the forgerye of them vnto which former Articles vve referr the reader Only now vve must take away BalaaÌ„ his stumbling block which he layeth before men as though vve denyed the true Christ perfect God perfect man of his tvvoe natures subsisting not confounded but vnited c. Yea vve confesse there is but one bodye one spirit one Lord one faith one baptisme and that this Christ is in all places the same for euer hovvsoeuer the false Church may challenge interest in the lyuing Child But that these parish assemblies denie him to reigne ouer them yea to be anie true Christ vnto them by theire deeds it is manifest For doe they not put the reede of the Popes Canons in his hand in steade of the Scepter of his ovvne holy vvord Do they not make him a minister of an other TestameÌ„t by bynding him to this theire popishe Apochripha liturgye and all theire other deuises made or to be made Do they not make him a priest a sacrifice to all the prophane vngodly To conclude do they not hereby denye and abrogate all his offices in his Church of kingdome priesthoode prophecye and his vvhole anointing in the flesh The brief summe of a conference had the 9. day of the 3. Moneth betweene Mr. Hutchinson Arch-DeacoÌ„ me Iohn Greenwood prisoner in the Fleet hauing bene kept close now a yeare an half by the BBs sole commaundement The perticuler discourse wherof vvere but vnprofitable to relate neither will I trust my fraile memorye therin Mr. Hutchchinson said he came by vertue of Commission in her Ma ts name to confer c. I denying to make answere to anie thing vntill I might haue indifferent vvitnesse by the matter to be vvritten downe obteined to haue pen ynke Mr. Calthrop a gentleman prysoner to be vvitnes I desired Mr. Hutch to set downe the end of his comming I vvould make answere thereunto vvhereuppon he vvrote vvith his owne hand to this effect Memorandum that I Mr. Huthchinson being desired by Mr. Greenwood to set downe the end of my comming shew it him to be by vertue of commission yet not to examine him or anie vvay to hurt him but to confer vvith him about his seperating of himself from the Church of England if I might reduce him c. I Iohn Greenwood not desiring Mr. Hutchinson his comming yet am most vvilling of anie Christian conference vvhere it shall be free asvvell to oppose as ansvvere on both sides the matter to be recorded in vvriting The cause that I vvill not othervvise reason is for that I haue bene vvickedly sclauÌ„dered our cause falsly reported by Do. Some others c. Mr. Hutchinson then brought forth certaine articles of theire collections reading them vnto me Also he shevved me Do Somes sclauderous booke vvhere he turned to the positions the author had falsly affirmed to be ours Hauing read his Articles he demaunded vhether I approued or disalovved of them To the Articles I said they vvere theyre ovvne collectioÌ„s not ours And as for Mr. Somes booke it vvas full of lyes sclaunders But I vvilled him if he vvould confer to set dovvne some position vnder his hand vvhich I vvould assent vnto or els disproue Still he vvould haue me to ansvvere some of those articles c. But at length he vvilled me to set dovvne some cause whie I would not come to theire Church vvhereuppoÌ„ I vvorte thus The parish assemblies in England consist of all sorts of profane people generallye subiect to this antichristian ministerie lavves Courts vvorship c. And therfore are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ To this he first answered that if the parish assemblies were a false Church then euery member thereof was a member of the false Church which were daÌ„gerous for me to affirme I desired him first to denye or affirme the argument being generall after infer what it pleased him at last he made this answere in writing with his owne hand HVTCH. Your vnsufficient Argument hath 2. defaults in it 1. the sequell of your Argument is not true 2. Your first assertion cannot be prooued GREEN I will replie vppon your second exception as order requireth That Your parish assemblies consist of all sortes of profane people c. is thus proued They vvere all by the blovving of her Maiesties trumpet at her coronaiâ—â—â— in one day receaued vvithout conuersion of life by faith repentance they theyr seede euer since generallie receaued to your sacrament vvithout anie seperation from the vvorld Therfore they novv consist of all sorts of profane
of the Church ANDR. A Schismatick may depart from the Church and yet hold the faith BAR. They cannot hold the faith which forsake the fellowship of the faith ANDR. You speake ignorantly sondry Schismaticks haue not erred BAR. I speake truly as the holy ghost speaketh in the last verse of the 10. to the Hebr. But vve are not of the vvithdravving vnto destruction but of faith to the conseruation of our soule Here you see the keeping of the faith set opposite against the departing from the fellowship ANDR. Loking vppon my Testament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvithdrawing What is this to Schisme The place you would alledge is higher vp in the Chapter BAR. This is the place which I would now alledge what say you vnto it is not that withdrawing from the fellowship Schisme Can anie with-draw frō the fellowship and yet kepe the faith is there anie saluation out of the Church of saluation without faith ANDR. What is there none but a true faith neuer read you of anie other BAR. Yet acknowledg I but one faith as there is but one God c. which faith no Schismatick can haue and as for this false faith Deuills hereticks may also haue such faith But you will not say that an heretick doth hold the faith neither yet doth a Schismatick hold the faith ANDR. Do not hipocrits make a shew of faith and yet they haue no faith what faith is theirs BAR. There is no comparison betwixt hipocrits Schismaticks the one whilest he stadeth making shew of the true faith both by life profession so far as we can iudge the other making open breach of faith But after the hipocrite is once discouered I say then he also appeareth to haue no faith HVTCH. These are but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strife about words shal we begyn to reason to some purpose BAR. If we may haue indifferent notaries that may iustly set downe what passeth on ech side so that we may eyther of vs haue a copie therof the better to expend consider of ech others reasons I am very willing at anie tyme or place so to reason HVTCH Here is one that can write and called one of his men BAR. He is no such wryter as I would haue Furder I would haue some witnesses because you are two I am but one ANDR. Rather then that shall be a hinderance I will goe vp reason with Mr. Greenwood and leaue you two togeather BAR. That is not my meaning I had rather you taried still Only because you are two I but one therfore your testimonie may the rather be taken against me Ynke paper being brought and manie entred into the Parlor we were first to set downe agree of a Prop. which after much discourse to fro M. Hutch set downe after this maner HVTCH. The parish Church of S t. Bride is a true Church to which anie Christian may ioyne in theire publique prayers and Sacraments as they are by lawe now established BAR. The Parish of your S t. Bride as it consisteth of a confuse multitude of all sorts of people mingled togeather in one body standing vnder a false ministerye in Idolatry disorder is not a true established Church of Christ and therfore not such as anie true Christian ought to ioyne vnto in theire prayers Sacraments as they stand in this estate Here Mr. Andros moued that seing the question was agreed vppon the time now far spent we might depart vntill an other tyme But I seing much companie gotten in and nothing more heard against me then this propositiō desired them to say somwhat vnto it in that tyme that remayned First therfore Mr. Androes found much fault with my proposition as disordered vnlearnedly set downe and therfore deserued no answere I sayd that if it were true it suffised me and vnlesse they could disproue it it must still stand in force against them Here we had also much adoe about owr order of reasoning whither it should be after their schole maner by Logicke or no. I desired to reason after a Christiā maner according vnto truth though not in logicall formes where after some discourse of the necessitie vanitie of the arte of logicke I said I would not bynde the maiestie of the Script to logicall formes whereabout we should haue more vaine cauilles and spēd more tyme thē about the discussing of the question and that my cōscience could neither be conuinced or instructed with anie syllogismes so much as with the weight of reason force of truth Wherefore at length they condiscending vnto me denied with one consent my whole proposition as false vntrue I also denied theire proposition as altogeather false and willed them to make profe of it But still vrdging me to proue myne I condiscended so to doo BAR. In my generall propositiō are cōteined fower principall heads Namely 1. The cōfuse commixture of al sorts of people 2. Theire antichristian vnlawfull ministerye 3 Theire false idolatrous maner of worshipping of God and of theire whole ministration both of the word and Sacraments c. 4. And theire popish antichristian order ecclesiasticall gouernmēt From all which seuerall heads infinite reasons may be drawne But because all these cannot be handled at once I will begyn with some one of them And as order requireth if it please you I will begin to shew that this people as they stand in these parishes in this confusion c. are not in this estate capable of the Sacramēts ministery of Christ. ANDR. Order requireth that you should rather begin to disproue owr ministerie first BAR. There must be sheepe before there be a flocke A flocke before there be a shepheard ANDR. A flocke a Shepheard are relatiues BAR. There must be a flocke before there can be a shepheard because the people must chuse the Pastor ANDR. That is a deuise of yours BAR. Will you call the Commandement of Christ my deuise HVTCH. Your whole proposition is denied proue that BAR. My proposition being so large I must begyn with some one part therof I will first therfore begin with the people of this parish BAR. Arg. 1. The people of this parish are a confuse companie of Infidells Idolatort ignorant prophane open vvicked Therfore no such communion to vvhich a Christian my ioyne in theire prayers sacraments in this estate ANDR. Infidells what Infidels Know you what Infidells are BAR. I take them to be vnbeleiuers such as haue no true faith ANDR. What because they haue no true faith therfore Infidells BAR. Yea because they haue no true faith therfore vnbeleeuers or Infidells HVTCH. We receaue no infidells into owr Church if you meane by Infidells 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without faith BAR. I meane by Infidells men without faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 HVTCH. What know you what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 priuatiue BAR. And so I vnderstand it
men distitute of faith ANDR. Can you put no difference betwixt Infidells Idolaters what thinke you the Papists to be Infidells BAR. I know the word infidell to be more large yet hold I all Idolaters infidells and the Papists infidells because such grosse Idolaters ANDR. We thinke more reuerently of the Papists thē so though they be Idolaters BAR. But Moses Paul think so of all Idolaters though Israelites though Iewes though Apostataes Saying that what they offer they offer vnto Deuills Leuit. 17. Deut. 12. 1 Cor. 10. HVTCH. Will you call hipocrits Infidells Because we receaue some hypocrits therfore Infidells BAR. Hipocrits whilest they make hold the same profession and faith with vs cannot by vs be discerned or iudged by the Church vntill the Lord furder discouer them by breaking out into some error or transgression But infidells are such as eyther are neuer come or are fallen from the faith Of which sort I affirme all the people as they thus stand in your parishes to be HVTCH. ANDR. We denie that proue it BAR. They stand one with the world vncalled forth vnto the faith Therefore they are such ANDR. Wat new phrase is this stande one what meane you by stande one BAR. The phrase is not new but vsual through all the Scriptures I meane by standing one with the world that they remaine one body with the world the world with them vncalled forth vnto the faith c. HVTCH. ANDR. We denie it they stand not one with the world BAR. I thus proue it They stande one vvith this vvhole land vvith all the vvicked abhominable persons thereof Therfore they stand one vvith the vvorld HVTCH. ANDR. We denie both the Antecedent consequent BAR. In prouing the land to be of the world the Consequēt will of necessitie followe ANDR. We denie this land to be of the world BAR. That land people that are not truly called out gathered vnto Christ are still of the world For owr sauiour saith vnto his Disciples I haue chosen you out of the vvorld c. Ioh. 15. But this land hath not as yet bene truly called out gathered vnto Christ Therfore it is of the world and the world of it For I am sure it is neither holyer not better then Israell Iudea were at the comming of owr Sauiour HVTCH. ANDR. Our land is truly called gathered vnto Christ and so are the people of this parish BAR. Christs Church allwayes consisteth of a holy free people seperat from the vvorld rightly called gathered vnto Christ vvalking forth in faith obedience But the people of this Parish and generally of the land haue not as yet bene thus seperate from the vvicked of the land neither as yet bene thus gathered vnto Christ but stand mingled togeather vvith all the vvicked c. as theire present estate shevveth Therfore they are no people capable of the holy ministerie Sacraments of Christ c. HVTCH. ANDR. The people of this parish as also of the other parishes in the land haue bene are truly called vnto Christ neither is there anie open wicked receaued into or suffred in the Church BAR. Al the land at this day is of your Church vvithout the exception of anie one person But I am sure you vvill not say but there are manie vvicked in the land Therfore you are not seperate from the vvicked HVTCH. I know no such wicked as you speake of If you know anie you shall do well to complaine that they may be cast out BAR. Alas I know none other But whie were they thus receaued Or how should they be cast out ANDR. There were two cast out the last Sonday here in Londō Therfore we seperate the wicked and keepe them not amongst vs as you say BAR. And had you no more apparantly wicked but two worthie to be cast out HVTCH. ANDR. We know no more BAR. That is well I report me to all your Gaoles c. And were not these two cast out by the power of Antichrist by some Chancellor or Commissarie or some of that crewe ANDR. What if they were Bar. Then you cast out Sathan by the power of Sathan ANDR. Proue that BAR. That were to digresse from the present question which is not whome howe you now cast out but whom how you receaued and kepe in your Church which I affirme to be all the prophane multitude of the land without anie true seperation at the first and so you continue ANDR. That is not so I tell you we excommunicated two the last day Therfore we haue seperation HVTCH. We denie your Assertion we receiued not all or anie prophane into owr Church at anie tyme. BAR. In Q. Maries reigne all the land vvas fallen into open Apostacie and Idolatrie In this estate vvere they all found at the begynning of owr Q. Elizabeths reigne and so all at one instant vppon her first setting vpp this religion receiued into the body of your Church had this ministerie set ouer them these Sacraments administred vnto them c. in your Parishes as they novv stand Therfore all the prophane vvere receiued into your Church vvithout choise or seperation HVTCH. There were none then receaued but such as made true profession and we can neyther requyre nor discerne more BAR. They could make no true profession that had no knovvledge of the truth But the people that tyme had no knovvledge of the truth Therfore they could make no true profession so sodenlye HVTCH. They all had knowledg of the truth They repented and sorrowed for theire synnes as appeareth in the Confession BAR. Thus I proue that they had neyther true faith nor repentance None can haue true faith repentance but such as are called thervnto by the preaching of the gospell But all this people vvere receiued into your Church vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before Therfore they vvere receiued into your Church vvithout true faith repentance For all were receiued into your Church at one instant this ministerie at the first dash set ouer them all c. Here Mr. Androes began a large discourse that the Iewes had two maner of excommunications The one of the heathens the other of the Publicanes The one they banished from comming into theire Temple The other they suffred to come thither yet abhorred they theire companie conuersation in ciuile things And here would needs know of me which of these were the greater BAR. Your question is to no purpose neither is your assertion true The Iewes had not two kinds of excōmunication They did not excommunicate the heathen And in that they abhorred the companie of the Publicanes in ciuile conuersation whilest they admitted them to the Temple they synned ANDR. Let him be vnto thee as a beathen a Publicane Is ther not two kinde of excōmunications mentioned amongst the Iewes one to the heathen another vnto the Publicane BAR. No there is no excommunication of the Iewes mencioned The
at that tyme be set ouer them in that estate 16. They still denied the Maior gaue this reason therof because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church an other thing to be a member of the Church 17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations To this it was answered that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie heathen which were not called to the faith ioyned to the Church still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth exercising a ministerie ouer them 18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge care ouer strangers Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes called to the faith dispersed through manie regions as the next verse 1 Pet. 1.2 Iames 1. sheweth 19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths though ye haue manie teachers yet haue ye but one father Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were beleeuers Argument 3. There can be no communion betvvixt the beleeuers vnbeleeuers therefore the infidells can haue no communion vvith the Church in the ministerie thereof or in anie spirituall action Being demaunded by them what we meant by communion we answered such cōmunion as is spoken of Act. 2.42 in doctrine in prayer in the sacraments in mutuall communication in all Christian duties how none were receaued to this communion before they were ioyned as members vnto the Church Argument 4. There can novv be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testamēt but vvhere a mutuall couenant is made betvveene the Pastor the people he bounde to teach guide gouerne them they againe to obey him in the Lord But the infidells haue made no such couenant vvith the Pastor Therfore c. 20. Do. Androes said the Pastor ought not to gouerne that he himself was a Pastor yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pastors as Bishops We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer vvas a generall name cōmon to the Pastor teacher Elders vvhich name importeth gouernment care Phil. 1.1 Act. 20.28 21. Do. Androes here said that the vvord bishop was not common vnto either the Pastor teacher or Elders but vnto other higher gouernors We answered that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord but only vnto their Lord bishops desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God 22. Vnto vvhich they answered that all their ministerie vvas by positiue lavves We then said that it must needs follow that all their religion vvorship was pollitick also that ministerie vvhich Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian At lentgh after manie bitter reprochfull speaches against vs vve returned againe to our former discourse framed this Argument vnto the rest Argument 5. The people novv are to make choice proofe of their Paestor But thei vvithout the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor Therfore c. Here they said that this allowre other positions were fond vaine foolish this was all the answere vve could get of them Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Barrow to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church that the people present might be satisfied whervppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth The reasons vvhie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth 1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith but stand mingled togeather in confusion 2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament 3. The administration worship of this Church is not according to the word of God 4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment Courts officers Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ but new antichristian Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God or reformed I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate These things I witnesse subscribe H. Barrovv I Iohn Greenwood being demaunded by M r. Hutchinson whether I would set downe myne hād vnto this or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike refused to do either of both vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised at neither of his commings would performe A breif answeare to certayne sclaunderous Articles vngodlie calumniations sparsed abrode by the BB s theire adherēts against diuerse faithfull true Christians her Maiesties loyall and louinge Subiectes to cullour theire owne vngodly tyrannicall dealing with them to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people Article 1. They hold that the Lords praier or anie sell prayer is blasphemy they neuer vse anie prayer for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the Church of England Ansvveare WE hold that the Lords praier so commonly called is sacred Canonicall scripture cōteyning a most absolute perfect rule grownd worke wherby all faith full prayers ought to be framed gyuen by owr Sauyour Christ for the instruction and confirmatiō of his Disciples that theire prayers might be according to the will glory of God But that the very forme of words as they are in theis petitions were gyuē instituted as a sett stinted prayer or that owre Sauiour Christ his Apostles haue euer vsed yt in that maner we finde not in the scriptures where we see theire prayers according to theire present occasions c. set downe in other words no mention made of such prescript lymited saying of this as they requyre enioyne Moreouer if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer or of the true vse of this forme for prayer as they seeme yet euen theyre owne practize in theire pulpyts Liturgies doth excuse vs thus far forth condemne them For her Maiestie we praye both publiquely pryuatly day night at all tymes places according to owre duties as becommeth vs and godwilling wyll not cease so to do whilst owre lyues shall last Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers or read seruice are but meere bablinge in Gods sight plaine Idolatrie TO this we answeare that we are taught in the Scriptures That God is a Spirit wilbe worshipped in Spirit truth we finde further in the Script in owr selues That God gyveth to