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A04491 A dialoge describing the originall ground of these Lutheran faccions, and many of their abuses, compyled by syr William Barlow chanon, late byshop of Bathe; Dyaloge descrybyng the orygynall ground of these Lutheran faccyons, and many of theyr abusys Barlow, William, d. 1568. 1553 (1553) STC 1462; ESTC S101046 40,661 178

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lustes makynge y● whiche is vnlawefull lawfull which say that good is euell euell is good callynge lyghte darcknes and darknes lyght N. We shal finde thē among whiche prech suche thinges as ye cal heresye for no such cause but preache it bold elye before great audience where they for theyr preachyng be brought in great daūger W. Thoughe they do fall in harme yet haue they hope to wynne theyr fauour or els why are they so desyrous to haue so many ley mē present at their examinatiōs N. They make of it a reasonable cause for .ii. cōsideratiōs One is to thintent they might not be wrongefullye oppressed in corners another is because they would that people shulde bear witnes of their constancy in confessynge the trouthe for Christes sake W. These cōsyderations in theym yf they were true as thei be false were yet of small efficacite against the euangelike perfection As touchynge the fyrste God promyseth yf hys seruauntes be wronged pryuelye he wyll reuenge them opēly And Christ in the gospell exhortynge vs to suffraunce byddeth his discyples to be ioyful in persecution saying y● happy are ye when ye are belyed euyll spoken vpon and extremelye dealte withall for my names sake The other appearethe to be an excuse of vaynglory couetynge wordly prayse where as they perceiue that people fauourynge theyr parte wyll interprete to theyr commendation what so euer they say though it be agaynste scripture cōtrary to all verite Saynte Peter wylleth vs to geue accounte of oure fayth to euery bodye and that myldely with allowlynes We haue no president of the appostles that euer they disdained to answer before the infidele iudges tyll the vulgar multitude were by them or that they requyred assystence of greate men to be recordes of theyr wordes Wher fore I meruel what conscience these persons haue whiche are so importune to be examined in presence of rude seculers ignoraunt people when they answer so doubtfully that the beste learned can not well construe theyr me anynge And in Pryncypall articles wherevpon dependeth our saluacion or dampnation some answere so nakedly with blynd shyftes that they be able to brynge vnlearned people into erroure of things wherof they neuer douted before vsynge euer ouerthwart speche and quaylynge sentences of double vnderstandynge wyth protestations of hypocrysye after thys fashion In good fayth I thynke there is a purgatorye albeit I can not tell whether I may beleue it or no. I suppose that confessyon made to a preiste and pylgrymages maye be well done but I fynde them not in Scripture I beleue in these words of christ this is my bodye but as concernyng his bodely presence in forme of breade to saye any thinge it is aboue my capacitie and I dare not meddle with so dyffuse maters I rekē that I may beleue y● doctours of the church yf they speak not agaynste the worde of god c. To vse such āvages in weyghtye causes to put in question a fresshe the cases defyned by generall counsels as thoughe we were vncertayne of our beleif new to begyn agayne I repute it no spyryte of truthe sekynge goddes honoure and edification of theyr neighbour Nor I dout not but at the day of iudgement they shal make a more seryous aunswere This consideraciō is also as I haue sayde very playnlye false For whē these sly shyftes fayle thē they shew no constancy of their vnfaythfull doctryne but falsely forswere them self and saye they neuer sayde so the hole audience detesting theyr periury all saue onely theyr owne sect whiche as for periury pardon eche other To speke of manyfest mysliuers and open transgressours whom may we well exempte consyderynge howe prone and redy the hole world is from the moste to the leaste to declyne and fall vnto euyll Our faythe whiche God hath geuen vs to buylde good workes vppon is waxen barrayne and fruteles Charite likewise wherin we shuld be tryed to be the very disciples of Christe is waxed cold through the excesse of iniquite Amiable con●oro● with christen vnite whervpon all vertue fasteneth her fundation is fallen in ruyne to the fre entresse of hatefull discenc●ō lyberte of alvyces In euery state and degre y● one barketh at the other one obiecteth agaynste another his saultes ▪ eche of them farynge other to be causes of theyr myseries yet neuer a one fashioneth him selfe towarde any amendment for hys owne parte N. By my trouthe I deme the people would be good ynough if they had good heades W. I deny not that verely but the better that the heades be the better were the body lyke to be and y● euyll y● is in euyll heades descendeth down into euery part and maketh all the bodye the worse And yet surely if the people be euyll the synne of them causeth God sometyme to send them heades of the same sute both popes emperoures kynges cardynalles bysshoppes preistes and curates For it is the synne of the people as Job testifieth that causeth God to suffer hypocrytes sometyme to raygne ouer them Hypocrites he calleth them that represente the personages of these estates whose partes they do playe for a countrnaunce and do the contrarye in dede And as far as I haue redde in the byble all the while the people of Israell were good obeying goddes lawes and sought his honour God gaue them gracious gouernoures vertuous priestes and trewe Prophets But as sone as they swarued fel vnto ydolatry he sent thē for theyr punyshmente vngracious princes vycyous prelates and false prophetes so that no difference was betwene the people the prestes nor y● people could not ymagyn so outragious abominations but princes and prestes bothe were redy to fortefye them in theyr vnhappynes N. yet yf ye remember well the storyes of the byble ye shall fynde y● the trāsgressiō of goddes lawes amōge the people redounded fyrst frō y● heades by theyr pernicious occasion And as towchynge false prophetes and yll prestes God him selfe greuously complayneth vpon them shewing how the people are seduced by them to the pollutynge of hys name and violation of his lawes Whose enmious wickednes Ezechiell Hieremye with diuers other prophets declare at length Dyd not the Belial preistes Ophni Phines by theyr pestylent example and le cherours lyuynge corrupt manye one vpon whome God takynge vengeaunce they loste theyr lyues in battayl and the arke of God wherof they had the cure takē by the Philisteis xxx thousande fyghtyng men of the Israhelyte people were slayne in one daye Likewise y● chyldren of Samuell whiche were iudges of y● people not en suynge theyr fathers steppes but set vpon couetousnes toke rewardes and peruerted iugemente by whose occasyon the people were moued to aske a kynge vnto theyr desolation Moreouer the storye of kynge Saule is playn for whose pryuate disobedience the hole lande of Israell smarted full ●ore Kyng Dauid thoughe he was a blessed mā yet brought vnto folye for to nomber his people they were fayne to
which they had written whole bokes yet in y● ende were they driuen to the old determinatiō of the churche saue least theyr wrytynges shoulde seme in vayne theyr assemblynge to be ydie they founde out some contrariety of so slender importancye that mē may playnlye iudge in them other inuyncyble arrogance disdaynynge to be reformed or elles obstynate malyce sekyng for y● nones to impugne the trewth Concerninge the sacrament of the altare wherin rested the princypall matter of theyr disputation they greately varyed and coulde by no meanes agree Howe be it they concluded at laste that eche parte holdyng them contente with theyr beleife should departe in louynge frendshyppe without any odyous wrytinge frō thence forth one agaynst another N. whether of them obtayned the vyctory W. They deuyded it betwene theym whyle they were presente But sone after theyr departyng the Lutheranes ascribed it to Martyn Luther and contrarye the Oecolompadianes vnto Oecolampadius and Swynglyus N. Use they such crafty conueyaunce in promotyng theyr Gospell W. ye hardely and that without any shame when they be detected of it inforsyng men agaynst their wylles to be fautours of theyr heresyes Dyd not No●iomagus gather certayne sentences out of Erasmus workes which falsely depraued he coupled vnto Martyn Luthers assertions and caused them to be imprynted blasyng abrode that Erasmus and Luther were of one opynion to the slaunderous hynderaunce of his profytable studye of whome after muche other detraction he was not ashamed to craue subsedye in his beggarly indygence Also Butzer playd a lyke pageante with Pomeran in translating his Psalter out of latyne into the Almayne tonge For wher he aspyed any occasion to treat of the blessed Sacramente he plucked out Pomerans sentēces and graffed in his own after no compendyous fashyon which as sone as they were en prynted the fame noysed ouer all that Pomerane vnknowynge to hym was one with the Oecolampadianes whyche afterwarde he apartely detested in dyuers epystles dyscoueryng the false hod of Butzer Suche subtyll dryftes I may tell you among them is daylye not vnpractised N. Well ye haue here rehersed many thinges agaynst them wherein yf I and suche other wold geue credēce vnto your sayinges wythoute surmyse of percialite we shuld sone turne oure affection from theyr learnynge But seyng ye haue bene a fauourer of them and per aduenture bothe spoken and wrytten as largely as the rankest of them all whome ye nowe call heretykes fayne woulde I wyt what mocioned you to take it in hande so earnestlye and now to shyft your selfe from it so lyghtelye W. To shew you the truthe withoute dissimulation howe I was entyced vnto theyr faction the verye begynnynge was this I had redde certayn treatyses of Martyn Luther of the iustifycacion onelye by fayth wythoute good deedes how man had no free wyl how oure good workes auayled vs nothynge to be saued nother oure yll deedes shoulde cause vs to be damned and many other articles whiche he falsely presumed to ground vpon scripture Also I dylygentlye noted howe he descrybed the abuses of Popes Cardinalles byshoppes preistes and relygious personnes declarynge howe the present dekay of the church farre differed from the perfectyon of the Apostles and holy fathers at the fyrst begin nynge wherin he made no lye though in other thīges he spared the truthe Furthermore geuyng eare to the plesaūt rumoures of his reformations highly cōmended amōg new fāgled people it set myne harte so on fyre y● I could not rest vntyll I had bene there with thē After that I had sene Martin Luther Pomerane Melancton heard theyr prechinges perceyuyng theyr order there in Saxonye I went into hye Almayne vnto the Oecolampadians remaynynge there amonge theym was oftentymes conuersaunt with the Anabaptistes In the meane space I sawe many wonderfull alterations as destroyenge of monasteryes pluckynge downe of churches castynge out of ymages breakynge of aultars and caryeng the consecrate stones to the buyldynge of theyr bulwarkes also maryages of prestes monkes freers nonnes contempte of holy dayes anullynge of vygyles fastynge of the lent and embrynge dayes clene reiecte with other laudable ordynaunces instytute by the churche Al places of scripture where mencyon is made of Antichrist false prophetes maysters of lyes such other ▪ they violently applyed vnto y● clergye namynge theym selfe chrysten bretherne dyscyples of Christe and apostles of hys Gospell In denyenge purgatorye and auctorite of y● pope yf they founde in auncyent auctours as much as a corrupte tytle of a pystle sownynge any thynge to theyr purpose all be it the Epystle selfe made whole agaynst it yet wold they take it as the worde of god and sure reuelation of the spyryte Contrarye wyse yfanye alledged Austen Hierome Cypryane or Chrysostome agaynste them they wolde admytte theyr sentences for none auctoryte sayenge they were men all men were lyers In like maner concernynge the sacrament of the aultare where they redde in doctours of the spyrytuall eatynge and ghostelye beynge they onelye accepted that and vnder the coloure therof they woulde exclude the corporall eatynge and bodelye presence of Christ to the establysshinge of theyr blasphemous errors whiche they shadowed vnder the couerte of hypocrysye and persuasions of peruerted scriptures in suche wyse that openlye seyng I could not perceiue them vntyll it pleased God of his inest●mable goodnes to brynge me oute of the lande of darckenes and region of deth vnto the clerenes of his knowledge lyuyng lyght of truth I can not excuse me but amōg the wycked I endeuored my selfe to haue doone euyll but God so mercyfullye preuented me that it came to small effecte in doynge anye harme If I haue bene occasion of any mannes fall or cause of slaunder I am sorye for it and aske forgeuenes Notwythstandynge I neuer defended any opinion obstinately nether despised the admonycyon of any vertuous person that I haue erred was through ignoraunce and of no malicious pertynacite Where ye be in perplexitie of credence geuyng vnto my words I am sure if that I spake accordynge to your appetite ye would put no dyffydence in me whether I said the verite or lyed for it is a playne case amonge the fauourers of these newe sectes that they wyl refuse no forged tales makyng aught for theyr syde be they neuer so fals And seyng ye beleued me in errour ye oughte not to mystruste me nowe in my faythfull reuocacion voluntarye and not coacted N. Clearely many men presuppose that other ye be deluded by y● flatteryng perswasyon of some worldlye persons or elles vtterly geuen into a reprobate mynde throughe gredye desyre of yearthly promotion and appetyte of ydle lyuynge W. It is not in my power to stoppe y● wronge surmyse or mysse reporte agaynst me now enemy vnto theyr errours whyles they abuse the same to y● frendes of theyr heresyes namely where as Sathan is loosed at large and the lyenge goste the spyryte of vntrueth walketh at lyberty vnrestreyned Woulde God they were as prest to
As concernyng the olde testamente God him selfe promyseth in dyuers places that asynner shall be forgyuen hys synnes whensoeuer he wyl do penāce wherfore seig we haue so euident exhortatiōs of scripture mouynge vs to penaunce ▪ and manyfolde warnynges to correct our lyues through the the pacyent suffraunce of god happy are we yet if now atlast ere that it be to late we coulde faythfully saye wyth Job perfourming y● dede lord we haue hard y● wyth our eares therfore we reprehēd our selfs do penaūce N. yet wote I not well what ye call penaunce W. I haue ones told you yet I tell you agayn I call penaūce a chaūge of our lyfe in castyng of y● synfull old man with his dedes and doynge on anew man of vertuous conuersacyon whiche by fayth hope and charyte and the good workes y● come of them as prayer almouse sorow for his synne and payne gladly taken and susteyned for the same is renewed in to the knowledge fauoure of god accordynge to his ymage that made him N. how shuld laye mē come to this knowlege when y● gospell is lockyd fro them W. The gospell of Christe whiche is goddes worde is free and can not be boūde nor kepte frō any Christen man N. By saynt Marye for all that laye people maye not be suffred to haue the newe testament in englysshe whyche I call the gospell W. O ye meane Tyndals Gospell N. In dede though Tyndall was the trāslatour it is the worde of God and the verye same testament whyche ye haue in latyn of the euangelystes puttynge forth W. yetlerned mē and good men haue founden suche fawtes in his corrupt translation that it is for the same well and lawfully forbiden N. if they be good men as ye saye the haue founde it fauty I should reken thē better a great deale which wold amend it W. Though it were amended sufficiently corrected yet wyll I not saye that it is expediente for laye people to haue it considering the time as it is nowe N. Whye ye sayd that the gospell maye not be kept frō christē men W. No more it maye thoughe it be restrayned from the laye people in theyr vulgare tonge For the worde of God whiche is the worde of fayth as Scripture sayth is nere the in thy mouth in thy harte to thintent thou mayste do it N. Than I pray you where saynte Paule sayth that fayth cometh by herynge and herynge cometh by the worde of God how can we haue it without preachynge or information of it by readynge of scrypture W. Outwarde preaching and lyterall redyng of scripture are necessary meanes to attayne vnto the knowlege of the spyrite N. Wherfore then is the Gospell wythholden from the laye people W. I sayd they be two thynges necessarye but I sayde not that both twayne be to euerye man necessary But it is necessarye that euery man haue the tone or the tother and so haue they for they haue the worde of God preched expouned vn to them N. ye as the preistes lyste with false gloses W. Wyth the same gloses that the olde holy doctours sayntes haue made other maner of mē thā Luther Tyndale which now corrupt the trewth wyth theyr false gloses N. But why should not the comē people haue the scrypture them self in theyr own mother tong W Because of theyr abuse makyng of theyr owne gloses many also for theyr vnworthynes accordynge to Christes cōmaundement forbiddynge to cast perles before swyne or to gyue holy thynges to dogges Dyd not saynt Paul forbidde women to speake the worde of god in congregacyons for the auoydyng of abuse and dysorder Also dyd not he and Bar nabas forsake preachyng to the iewes because of theyr vnworthynes N. That is not a lyke case for the text is playn that the iewes wylfully resisted the worde of god and wolde not receyue it But these people are so desyrous that they putte theym selfes in no small ieopardye many tymes for the hauyng of it W. I graunt there be some which of a good mynd are desirous to haue the gospell in theyr mother tōge for the erudyciō cōfort of theyr soules But they that be suche good folk may be wel sufficiently fed with the gospell punched so wyll they rather chese to be than to haue the scrypture ronne in euery rasshe bodyes hande the wold abuse it to their owne harme and other mēnes to For well ye wot many ther be and as it appeareth in Almayne where they haue the scripture translated alreadye the more part and farre the greater multitude are not lesse vnworthye in receyuinge it then were the Jewes in the wylfull resistaunce of Christes gospell whiche couet it onely for the libertie to be free from the exercyse of penaunce and doyng of good workes to rayle and iest of other mennes fawtes wyth out any correctiō of their owne synfull lyues nothyng conformable to the vertue of the gospell whereof to bable manye wordes they are not dombe Marke it there substauncially in cities and townes where ye se the people most ryfest most busye to prate of the Gospell whether they be or not as gret vsurers disceiuers of they re neyboures blasphemous swerers euyll spekers and geuen to all vyces as depely as euer they were This I am sure of and dare boldely affirme that sythe the tyme of this new contencious lernyng the drede of God is greatlye quenched and charitable compassion sore abated Shall ye not se there a cock brayned courtier that hath no more fayth than a Turke lesse christen maners thā a Pagane with lordelye coūtenaūce knauyshe conditions whiche takyng the name of god ī vayne shall vnreuerently alledge the gospell with scoffyng and scornynge in reprehensyon of the clargye where as hys owne ●ewd lyuynge is so vnthryfty that ye can not aspy one good pyont in hym except it be vpon his hosen nor a nynche of honesty besyde his apparayle nor scantly therone neyther beyng al to hacked and iagged wyth dowble weapen redy to fyght and syngle wyt busy to brawle and chyde more lyke a furious tormentour of Herode than apacyēt dysciple of Christ Shal ye not also se there a marchaūt perauēture made a gentyll mā by promocion ere euer that he had a good yemās condicyōs whych gettynge hys chefe substaunce as many do there by vsury false dysceyte of trewe people and other wrongfull wayes wyll take vpon hym to preache the Gospell agaynste the auaryce of relygious persones how they hauyng theyr bare necessary foode ought to parte the resydue of theyr gooddes with pore people where as he hym selfe hath thousandes lyenge by hym in store vnoccupyed and wyll nother help his poore neyghbour nor scarcely gyue a galy halpeny to a nedy creature in extreme necessyte And at theyr belly festig days amonge such of theyr affynyte which are not so wyse nor well lerned as they wolde be sene yf it chaunce them to haue