Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	christian_a	church_n	true_a	4,006	5	4.8519	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85414	A short ansvver to A. S. alias Adam Stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. Together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which A. Stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. A. Steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. The civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say Presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1201; Thomason E27_6; ESTC R8324	30,557	41

and Gomorrah than for many people amongst whom Christ wrought most of his miracles Know you not that many who live and dye Papists because through ignorance as Paul whilst he persecuted the Saints 1. Tim. 1. 13. Whom God therefore had mercie on shall rise up in judgement against all Protestants which know Gods will and do it not Doe you not take it to be mad doctrin of Pauls when he presupposes there may bee a case when the best Christians I say not Presbyterians may nay ought never more eat flesh drinke wine nor anything where at a brother stumbleth is offended or made weake And yet if you beleeve Rom. 14. 21. 1. Cor 8. 13. you may finde it Evangelical a little othergates than such stuffe as you baptize with Orthodox and then think it pleaseth the Holy Ghost because such men such dust and ashes as your selfe know no better that all the world will they nill they must fall down and worship it If Independents say they have no faith in communicating with your mixt multitude and joyning in an English Directory alias a Scotch Common-prayer-booke and you notwithstanding by imprisoning or discountenancing compel them to it doe you not make them commit Idolatrie Are they not damned because they doubt thereof Rom. 14. 23. Can the Priests in Frame the Divels in Hell or Presbyterians anywhere do worse by Protestants But you promise largely you say the Presbyterians will not compel the Independents to act against their consciences only you will not suffer them to seduce other mens consciences What an Agrippa-like halfe Christian paradox is this Doth the truth constraine you to acknowledge that compelling Independents to joyn with you in your mixt communions and stinted worship against their consciences would amount unto Idolatrie and may they not instruct their Famelies friends brethren and all such who gaspe after a word of knowledge or but desire to be instructed by them how to decline Idolatrie and worship God in sincerity and truth Did not Nature engrave it in the hearts of al men that it is better to obey God than man Did not the Apostles for our clearer understanding resolve it when 't was made a question Act 4. 19. Are not all such condemned for unproffitable servants who put a candle under a bushel For lapping up their tallent in a napkin For not strengthning others after they themselves are converted And though you so often upbraid this as a licentious course and way to let in all Heresie and impiety have patience if I tell you the Papists say the verie same for excluding Protestantisme out of their Dominions and neither you as profownd an AS as you take your selfe to be nor all the Presbyterians in the world can say one tittle more than Papists doe in this behalfe now wherein your Divinity your Disciplin your Righteousnes exceeds not that of Papists take it not so hainously that Independents who have not so learned Christ may not dare not joyne with you yet if upon a second consideration hereof you shall still remain head-strong banishing all farther truth left some Heresies should creepe in therewith good now do but discover to us a possibility how after the Presbyterian rule which according to AS sayes the Civil Magistrate has power not to admit the true Church or to turne it out though it had beene admitted and established by low The Roman Church can ever be reformed or the Iewes converted to the Gospel Concerning the Churches of New-England you say their Independency is worse than Heresie you strengthen your selfe in denying them a toleration in Old-England because they will not graunt you one in New-England and yet you bid them begon thither and live in peace but tell me a little how can they be secure in New-England from the omnipotency of the Presbyterian Disciplin which is as covetuous and ambitious as Rome it selfe which claim 's no lesse than all the World ought you not to endeavour their conversion equal to your brethrens of Old-England and that as well unto your Disciplin as to your doctrin Are their soules not worth saving Or their Country not worth living in the soile is thought no whit inferiour if not better then the best in Old-England though there be not so good plundering for money and rich moveables But why should not the soules of your New-English Brethren bee as deare unto you as those of Old-England Or though your Brethren of New-England should know the way to heaven of themselves How can you with a quiet mind endure they should get thither without your Passe your Mittimus your Peter-pence Or why may not the Old-English be thought as charitably on or find the like favour from your over dilligent Presbyerie But put the case you did really desire the New-English their conversion you approve of them in suffering no opinions to be published but their owne If this Disciplin be strictly observed How can they possibly attaine to better light and knowledge What course will you take for their informing for convincing them of this worse than Heretical tenet as you call it if to their's and your Church pollicy they should lykewise attaine as sharp a Civil sword as yours Or put case that even your own most excellent Doctorship were not so sound or orthodox as self conceited which many have strong presumptions for who are thought better able to judge thereof than AS himselfe will you put your selfe in an impossibilitie of ever being reformed except tumultuously or illegally both waies compulsively Was ever any AS so dull so stupid so voide both of Civil and Christian policie But what shall I say unto you since according to your Theologie nothing is so likely to prevaile with you as cudgelling Page 172. You say that refusing to tolerate the Independents will helpe to confirme the Churches and people in the truth of Presbyterian Diciplin and Doctrin that many men are led by authority and take many things upon the trust of great men c. Phy AS Are you not asham'd thus to uncover the nakednesse of your Churches To tell us and them that the Presbyterian world takes up a religion and government upon trust And if the Venerable and learned Assemblie as you stile them should not graunt a toleration of any thing but Poprie or Turcisme would not your good people whom you speake of be as easily confirmed of the truth thereof Surely they will unlesse they bee wiser than their Anchesters which will not be beleeved Page 179. You ask What power hath either King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a toleration of all Sects And say the Parliament assumes no such power to it selfe If this bee true How can it settle not to say intrude as AS does improperly and unmannerly the Scotch Presbyterian disciplin in England more than the Independency of New-English Churches For since the Churches of Scotland and New England for Doctrin agree in fundamentals differ onely in Disciplin

controvesie it may bee said in behalfe of Independents that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated the most orthodox and rectified are equally Subject to bee persecuted On the other side Presbyterians say that the permitting differing opinions in a State is to open a flood-gate to all manner of Heresies and Schysmes What if wee did suppose these to bee the two Great Rocks of offence which in some sense were no otherwise than Scylla and Charibdis one of which you could not avoide without adhering unto the other Does it not remaine then that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences The latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all Heresies the former concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of Truth and even a possibility of keeping out the whole Truth Now this truth is like God himself even verie God himselfe invallewable we may not hazard the least attom the smalest proportion thereof for al other possibilities or impossibilities whatsoever What Shall we put our selves into such a condition that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe unlesse the whole Civil State the men of war the world doe see it as clearely as our selves That if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater That though we were in possession of the true Religion wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper Civil sword than our owne This is your Doctrin page 13. where you say the Civil Mgistrate though Christian has power to admit Christian Religion or when admitted to exile it afterwards but God keepe such Presbyterian Principles from farther taking root in England But if King and Parliament may not force a new religion or Sect suppose Presbyterian upon the Kingdome much lesse can the Synod which neither has nor yet pretends as is alleadged to use the materiall sword And if for matters of religion all power originally is in Christ as you sometimes acknowledge page 179. How can King Parliament or Synod wrest it from him Nay what thinke you Is it not secondarily in the people as well as Civil power which you affirme in the same page And so doubtlesse is spiritual power unlesse you will make God to have provided mankind better of a safegard or libertie to defend their bodies than their soules If then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under Christ as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects by what they may of Civil how can it be thought by any one that the King Parliament or Synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such AS ses should goe about to settle a N●w Presbyterian Scotch Government with an intention to force a conformity of the whole Kingdome three quarters whereof cannot as yet be thought to submit unto it willingly or for conscience sake Page 180. and elsewhere you advise the Independents to quit their fat Benefices but Presbyterian know how to quit the leane Benefices without your counsel And where doe you find the Independents in such fat Benefices What if you cannot find one of them in a fat Benefice Will you not say good cause why because the Presbyterians would quickly heave them out and get themselves ●n If they find any fatter than an other and bee so liquorish If they regard neither flock nor the Great shepheard of the flock Christ Jesus but with Esa●h or Judas prefer 30. pence or a fat Benefice before them both let them at least carry it more cau●elo●sly and not ●●● skipping so from one fat Benefice or Lecture unto a fatter that all the world cry shame of them I need not name them they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves But prithee A. S tell mee do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and Master-peece of thine to accuse the Independents of fat Benefices that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the Presbyterian Rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously obtaining such an Ordnance for Tithes as all the subtle invention● of Antichristian Bishops could never get the like Who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie Ministers out of their Livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes and so soone as Presbyterians had filld all Benefices and Lectures to move that Ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of ●essment● and is it not fitting it should bee so think you That they should set and keepe the Kingdome on ● fire in ● desparate bloody Civil warre and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching towards obtaining of a blessed peace I know these Heathenish Jewish Popish notions of Tythes Offerings and 〈…〉 ons were long since abominated and abolished amongst our Scottish Brethren And A. S. does well in not flattering the English Presbyterians therein lest Independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him who it is well knowne are not guilty of such Si●oni● they 〈…〉 bargaine of the Ministerie of the Gospel as if it were an unholy thing or themselves like so many Coblers or Shoe-makers to prostitute their labours to them that proffer most they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no much lesse at what price they themselves will what God requires to be given for nothing Esa. 55. 1. 2 They force no man to pay for that he never had as Presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances as if a Tayl●r or Hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not would not have his wares his service who will may see the Bloody Tenet and Iohn Baptist concerning tythes more largely Pag. 181. You say the power of the Ministerie or Ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually But pray tell me can fin be sin politically and not be fin spiritually Now if Ecclesiasticall power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge Will it not follow that fin so beaten down spiritually ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically and consequently no neede of Civil power to punish it But to be briefe as the Title promised for me Our Saviour bids us do as we would be done to that is Love our Neighbours as our selves on which commandment hangs the Law and Prophets Math. 7. 12. and 22. 39. 40. and Paul tels us that Love is the fulfilling of the whole Law Rom. 13 10. Nay our Saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly Father otherwise than as we forgive our Brethren Math. 6. 12. 14. 15. Now amongst all sorts of transgressours there is no one offendeth so highly so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe or doing as hee would bee done to as he that

for a Cytie to continue long without a Government An. Yes if you meane spirituall Government with its spirituall Relations for as a Church Society is spiritual so must bee the Government in all Relations and respects Q. 15. But do we not by dayly experience in all places and houses find the Independents wrangling with the Presbyterians about Church controversies An. No but rather the contrary for if you marke it well you may see they are still the Presbyterians who generally begin first to find fault and pick quarrells with the Independents opinions not the Independents with the Presbyterians Q. 16. May not the permitting men to teach and imbrace new opinions be occasion that we quite loose old truthes An. No for if all opinions be permitted the true ones must necessarily be included Q. 17. But is it fitting then for everie man to be of what religion he will An. Yes surely and far better so than to bee of whatsoever religion an other will have him to be of since one of them must necessarily fall out Q. 18. Must we then suffer men to run headlong in the way to Hell if they have neither will nor understanding to prevent it of themselve● An. Surely yes wee must suffer what we cannot hinder Q 19 But may it not be hindered by hindering so many erroneous doctrins to be published which if they never heare of they cannot long after nor beleeve in to damn themselves An. N because a mans own phansie Imagination and Discourcive facul●y of themselves suggest and present unto his Memory variety of Opinions though not so clearly perhaps at first which if it bee not graunted him freely to debate aske counsel judge and make choice of his condition were worse than beasts incapable of doing either good o evil and such as are carried away with every wind of novelty and false doctrin were never sound in the true doctrin though they might seeme so before for want of oppertunity to show the contrary Qu. 20. If there be but one true religion why should we suffer above one religion in a Country A. If there be but one true Religion we ought to be the more carefull how to get and keep it in the Country not banishing any religion which in opinion of different Judges may possibly be the true one and by such as make profession of it both as wise learned and conscientious as our selves is proemptorily affirmed to be the only true one Q. 21. Is it not a pious act to compel a companie of carelesse idle people to hear a good sermon to do a good work whether they will or no An. No more pious an act then for Papists to use the like compulsion towards Jewes and Protestants in forcing them to heare their sermons masse or Vespers Q. 22. Yea but though they bee thus compelled to heare good sermons at fi●st against their wills the power and efficacy of truth is such as that in likelihood it will win upon their affections and work in them afterwards a desire to heare and practise them of their owne accord An. This is not likely because we do not find in all the Gospel that such unwarrantable means were ever sanctifide to produce so good effect Q. 23. But have we not seen it by experience that whilst the Papists in England were made go to Church many of them were converted and dyed Protestants An. The conversion of such Papists was rather to be suspected counterfeit to save their purse and if it had been real at any time we must attribute it to some private illumination or other handy-work of God and not to such means as are so contrary both to the doctrin and practise of our Saviour and his Apostles Q. 24. May not the Civil Goverment interpose to punish such Church-members with whom the spiritual by reason of their refractorines cannot prevaile A. Nothing lesse since the Civil State or Government has no more power nor virtue to make a Papist turn protestant in England than it can prevaile to make a Protestant become a Papist in Spaine Q. 25. Because Papists do ill in compelling Protestants to heare an Idolatrons Masse may not Protestants do well to force Papists to heare Godly sermons An. A Protestant sermon is as Idolatrous to a Papist as a Popish Masse is to a Protestant and neither of them can more judge with the understanding than see with the eyes of the other besides that God regards only such as serve him willingly Q. 26. But can there be any hurt in forcing refractory people to be present ●● religions Orthodox Assemblies where if they will they may be informed of the truth An. Yes 1. Because there can come no good thereof through want of willingnes which God only regards in him which i● thus compelled and 2. Because this forcing is a doing evil that good may come thereof which is prohibited Rom 3. 8. FINIS