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A68850 A mothers teares ouer hir seduced sonne: or A dissuasiue from idolatry penned in way of a dialogue, by occasion of a late letter from the sonne now at Doway, to his mother: which is also printed vvith the letter, and is fully set downe in the sonnes part, for the substance, though with some addition in forme.; Answere of a mother unto hir seduced sonnes letter. 1627 (1627) STC 24903.5; ESTC S114250 89,317 193

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it in the time of prayer but to make the mind as sensuall as the Image which should be quire drawne from the senses Call ye this a serving God in Spirit SONNE Yes for marke my Leaders words wee use them but as a devout representation of the Churche Triumphant which is fit to bee made in the time and place of prayer MOTHER I say nothing of the Church Triumphant or of that proportion which is betwixt the the representation and the thing represented turne we to Deut. 4. 15. Take good heed for ye saw no manner of Image lest yee corrupt your selves and make the representation of any figure See here ye saw no Image ye shall make the representation of no figure wee doe use Images as a representation What call ye this but with a whores forehead to walke in the stubbornesse of your owne hearts yee shall not yet ye will doe contrary to the expresse charge of God therefore as theirs so your services are accompted no better then sacrificing to Divells Deut. 32. 17. Whosoever walkes contrary to Gods revealed will shall find the Scripture an adversarie and contrary to his way in every page Agree then with thy adversarie while thou art in the way For ye can no more wash your hands from Israels sin then their following generation could theirs from innocent blood Therefore that thou may'st be pricked in thy heart I returne to the second of Isaiah where we find the burden of Idolatry The meane man boweth downe and the great man humbleth himselfe therefore forgive them not wherefore they bowed they humbled Marke it the iudgement is tied to bowing and humbling Forgive them not had thy Mother some rhetoricks now what could shee doe with it Elocution thrice repeated could do no good here This is a iudgement beyond expression It is the utmost of all Iudgements Why The horse may trample out the braines of a man and stamp his body to pieces yet there is hope in that death The Canon may dash the body like a snow ball throwne against the wall yet there is hope in that death The sword may bee made fat with the blood of the slaine there may be wailing in all streetes and crying out in all high wayes Alas Alas yet there may be hope all this while for these things fall alike to all and no man knoweth love or hatred But forgive them not What think you A man might here enquire with sobriety too why the Prophets tongue was thus steel'd against the people he seem'd more then a Son of thunder his words were swords even bitter words Lord forgive them not on would haue thought that he should have stood in the gap and have said Lord forgiue them Yea but the Prophet that hath a dreame may tell a dreame Ierm 23 but he that hath the word he saw concerning Iudah and Ierusalem Isaiah 2. 1 must speake the word faithfully and when the people shall aske what is the burden of Lord the Prophet must answer I will euen forsake you saith the Lord. Iere. 23. 33. Consider we now here is an heavy iudgment can the exalting of a peice of wood procure such a punishment Consider wee againe that sillie man would not be compared to a block and that iealousie is the rage of a man he will not spare in the day of vengeance Prov. 6. 34. Consider also that the name of the Lord is dreadfull he will bee sanctified of all that come neere him for hee is a consuming fire This puts vs upon Dauids words let vs call for his spirit my flesh trembleth for dread of thee and I feare for thy Iudgements Psal 119. 120. But if thy heart continue yet stiffe thou hast made thy selfe liable to Belshazzars sin which brought destruction upon him like a whirle-wind The Lord hath done thus and thus to Ephraim and thou hast not humbled thy heart though thou knewest all this But hast praised the gods of silver and gold wood c. and the God in whose hand thy breath is and whose are all thy wayes thou hast not glorified Dan. 5. 22. Good Child consider it and since I cannot give thee my right hand of fellowship yet the Mother and Child would faine bee together they would not a few miles should part them much lesse such a gulfe let us before thy hand bee pluck't backe seriously debate this thing by what hath beene said by what shall be said which is safest which surest my comming over unto thee or thy comming over unto us that if it may be we may be together here and hereafter for ever with the Lord. Attend then further to what I have learn'd from Pauls planting and Apollos watering God giving the increase we acknowledge but one Church firme and stedfast as the foundation of the everlasting Hills compared to Noahs Ark as in many respects so also for this because as out of that there was nothing but death so out of this there can be no salvation And therefore as Noah having Gods speciall order for the matter and forme of it had also his invisible hand to guide it So likewise hath this Church that watchman of Israel for its Pilot therefore though it be in continuall dangerin yet shall it be preserved from the raging waves of this sea be safely brought to the haven where it would bee And for its more sure direction this keeper of Israell hath appointed at a most certaine and infallible oracle whereunto all the Prophetts and Apostles give witnesse and thereunto it doth give diligent heede and firme assent because the Authority and testimony therof is alwaies the same being grounded upon Gods unchangeable veritie As for the Popes succeeding Peter the Church findeth not the truth of it in hir Genealogies and it may be as doubtfull as the succession of Peters Cocke whose Pedegree notwithstanding they say hath beene lineally drawne from generation to generation and it is Cock-sure But yet call your Pope what you will Iohn or Ioane you know it was doubtfull once yet is hee of the same mould with Peter and may erre as hee did whereupon Paul resisted him to the face for hee was to be blamed Gal. 2. 11. And therefore whatsoever he saith challengeth no other then an humane consent unto it for if all the men in the world not immediately directed as were extraordinary Prophets Apostles in whom the spirit spoke and testified by them should consent in one as they notwithstanding their multitude were but men though many so were their testimonie but humane It was not then of old time that they asked councell of your holy Father and so ended the matter but search the Scriptures they testifie of me There is our oracle hearken to what they say The Church of the living God I call it neither ours nor yours but blessed is the man that hath his name written therein is the pillar and ground of trueth no foundation whereon the building must relie but as it is
but a man weedes come up of themselues good corne not so flesh is propagated not spirit Thou canst but speake to the eare by all thy planting by all thy wat'ring it is God that boares it so giuing your increase Thou canst not adde to the stature the one or the other yet let me thrust in one thing by the way I finde obedience pre'st upon the parent in many places as a speciall meanes to in●aile a blessing upon the child And it shall be well with thee Is that all No. And with thy seede after thee A strong motive to obedience But still here is a brittle Barke and it must passe through a tempestuous sea every little gale tosseth it a greater indangers it Pray that grace a commodity thou canst not stoo in him may set him vpright and keep him so I say pray as Paul in another case oft and againe that the keeper of Israell would so steere him off the Rockes where there will be ship wracke as that he may not cause his Parents Teares they will be bitter ones for I can tell in experience that one Child is unto the Parents as the two basketts of Figgs to the Pallet when good very good then sweet very sweete he is their Isaac the Parents ioy When bad very bad then bitter very bitter he is a Benoni all their sorrow hence A Mothers Teares Beleeue it Reader a Child is a kind of a thing lapt up together like a pretty bundle thou maist call it a bundle of Cares but that 's to generall There are three things wrapt closely in it one as thou maist be thou shalt feele before thou see'st it and that is Labour or Sorrow the other comes to thy hand presently and sticks to it like bird-lime thou canst not shake thy hands off it and that is Care The other which is Comfort thou maist meete with but thou knowest not when and being found it may slip from thee thou knowst not how soone but in place of it thou shalt be sure to feele the first againe perhaps in more extremitie God giue thee comfort in thine Now say as much for mee And thee thine againe THE AVTHOR TO THE Christian Reader THis Booke hath yet a further Reference unto thee then what the Mother hath told For that it concernes that High Relation also thou standest in towards God to whom thou owest honour because thou callest him Father And feare because thou cal'st him Lord in whom all Relations meet as lines in their Center and from whom they receive both light motion and direction For be it thou art a Governour thou must cōmand in the Lord. Be it thou art a servant so is a Sonne too under age thou must obey in the Lord. And herein the more or lesse Idolatrous thou art the more or lesse faulty Now if thou shalt say the Case is well with thee for thou art no Idolator my Answer is thy heart may deceive thee and surely doth Indeed I am perswaded of thee that if thou hast not shut thine eyes against the cleare light thou art not such a Child in yeares or understanding Be it thon art not fit for strong meat but that thou do'st loath and detest Idolatry in the generallity maine tenents of the same As first that the Mysticall Body the Church which is least in sight should have an Head on earth so visible as a Tripple Crowne will make it Secondly that a Supreame power should bee given to him to others a power so subordinate as that they though the Lords anoynted on earth I doe not read the Popes are so should bee but fit to kisse his holinesse feete when as an unmannerly dog strained curtesie and bit his toes He no doubt without whose providence the least sparrow falleth not correcting such exorbitant pride by a contemptible though serviceable Creature Thirdly That hee who hath his foundation in Clay what euer they who giue titles to men accompt of him should be planted so high aboue his Predecessor Peter so some would haue it as that the shot whereby Peter was hit cannot reach his Successour Fourthly That he should keepe a faire for Indulgences and pardons Excommunications Bulls and Curses and I know not what As if he had so much interest in God as to make him pardon man for his profit Or as if Balak had so much power in Balaam that hee could make him curse where God will blesse follow not thou the counsaile of Balaam to mixe thy selfe with strangers and to follow their workes so drawing a Curse on thy selfe and Balaam though hee bee upon his Asse and forward on the way shall not hurt thee Fiftly That the constitutions of the Popes Cardinals are of divine Authority when as thou maist giue more credit to an old wiues tale Sixthly That the word which is the mightie power of God vnto saluation and is profitable to teach to instruct and to reproue that the man of God may be perfect should notwithstanding the necessity excellency of it be lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue when as besides what thou hast well obserued from Paules words 1. Cor. 14. Thou art verily perswaded that thy shepheard takes more felicity with his Dogg then in hearing him pray or prophesie whose language hee understandeth not Aug. de Ciuit. Dei lib. 19. cap. 7. Seuenthly That the Virgin mother may command the Sonne whereas she rejoyceth in God hir Saviour And that the Saints may bee invocated as Intercessors though not as Mediators whereas there is but one that sitteth to make intercession for us euen he that sitteth at the right hand of his Father This and much more thou callest grosse Idolatry a darkenesse which may be felt and is by all such as are not blinded with ignorance as it were by proscription who professing themselues to bee wise are become fooles and having chang'd the truth of God into a lye are now delivered up unto strong delusions even to belieue lyes And thus much for that I am verily perswaded of thee my hope reacheth yet further concerning thee That whereas thou hast so often read of the Iewes so often reprooued for their Fasts their Prayers their Almes excellent things in themselues thou hast thence concluded that workes auaile nothing unlesse they proceede from a touched and religious heart unlesse they doe not in name only agree but are in truth answerable to our profession for that God is pleased with truth not with ceremonie with substance not with forme with mercy rather then sacrifice with obedience rather then the fat of Lambes with cutting off the right eye and arme not with casting away the baggs And all this considering what the Lord saith in the first of Malachi In every place shall be offered unto me a pure offering but cursed be the deceaver that hath in his flocke a male and offereth unto the Lord a corrupt thing offer it unto the Governour will he bee pleased with thee or accept thy person I am
in the day of the Lords visitation he will visite our sins upon vs let Baal plead for Baall and wickednesse proceed from awicked man let him defend it it will find him out at length and in due time the foote shall slide And it shall be bitternesse in the end that the Priests whether yours or ours haue made the Sacrifice to bee abhorred and for the professors too that they have caused the name of the Lord to be blasphemed and his holy wayes to be spoken against nay I tell thee some of these ministers and professors too that have thus profaned the covenant and dishonoured that holy thing they have taken upon them are made contemptible and base before all the people Oh that they were wise then would they understand they would consider their latter end Now againe to the● my Child it is no matter how my wordes come forth for their method so none be lost thy Mother hath no Art And first for thy better information concerning our doctrine Yet as an introduction thereunto because there is no end of writing heare thy Mothers doctrine first Call it Salamons summes Feare God keepe his Commandements And consider this with it that these are Evangelicall precepts which are not dead like those of the law but lively in operation Take this also with it which thou findest in many places The Lord gives his Spirit to them that obey him and his secret is with them that feare him Thus much to prepare thy care it is the Lord that must circumcise it that must bor● it The doctrine followes Love God with thy whole heart and thy neighbour as thy selfe there is the Law and the Prophetts and in that the Churches doctrine and thy lesson Thou wilt say with the young-man All this I doe performe Therefore thy Mother conceaves the lesse hope I would rather thou could'st have confe'st thy selfe an unprofitable servant that so thou mightst have beene capable of that which followes for thou hast but halfe yet Christ came into the world to saue sinners There is the Gospell And if in thy owne apprehension thou art one yea the chiefe of sinners there is the comfort only there Thus thou hast the summe of the Law and the Gospell take it together in Paules words 1. Tim. 4. 6. 2 3 4 5. It teacheth the wholesome words even the words of our Lord Iesus Christ the doctrine which is according to godlinesse and if any man teach otherwise he is proud knowing nothing from such with draw thy selfe 1. Tim 6. so much for the generall Now more particularly thou shalt see how this doctrine ariseth out of the Scriptures the ground of it as the sap soaketh out of the tree and thence spreadeth it selfe into severall branches then unites it selfe upon it's disciple man to whom it is more particularly made knowne by the inward worke of Gods spirit The Doctrine is holy according to the Scriptures avowing them to be a most perfect rule neither crooked any way nor short in any thing requisite which must bee received for the testimonie of God because wee must set to our seale that he is true and not for the testimonie of the Church which were to set to our seale that men were true Thence concluding that there is one God one Christ one Faith one Church one Baptisme That this one God is to bee worshipped purely as a spirit in spirit and in truth according to the three substances soberly and wisely according to all his Attributes piously religiously That Christ is to be rested upon wholly by a precious faith whereof God is the Author God is the Finisher for it pleades not the power of mans free-will in spirituall things against the free grace of God who will bee admired in all that believe not immediately when he giues the meanes but upon the conscionable use of the word and Sacraments according to the patterne and primitiue Institution set apart for that end and sanctified thereunto by which faith euery soule gets vnion with and interest in Iesus and hereby is only perfectly iustified both in respect of degrees parts and sanctified also in respect of parts and all this not by perfection of the instrument Faith that is a creature but of the obiect it apprehendeth Christ and so may with a true though palsy hand receiue and keepe both Christ and his benefits which doth evidence to the soule now not walking by sight that he hath vnion with the vine and Communion with the branches having now the Baptisme of the Holy Ghost even cleane waters poured upon him whereof the outward element was more then a bare signe And now being thus washed thus purged he cannot be unprofitable but beareth much fruite to the glory and praise of him who hath called him out of darkenesse into his marvelous light and this fruite comming from a lively root is lively also evedencing outwardly what the Spirit hath sealed inwardly So putting to silence the mouthes of wicked men and his owne mouth too from glorying in any thing but in him that raised the dead who prevented him with grace and followes him with grace thereby giving him assurance that he will perfect what i● begunne to him therefore is ascribed the glory whose power was and i● so gratiously manifested in weakenes Hence ariseth a Ioy inexpr●●sible yet till this warfare be accomplished many waies and divers times interrupted never quite lost in the ground of it be walkes by faith but the fulnes is reserved in the heavens which the Lord the righteous Iudge shall give him for the praise of the glory of his grace according to the dispensation of his will purposed before all time sealed unto him i● time and shall bee perpetuated ●●to all eternity This is a light Child though darknes apprehend it not this is a good seed whereof i● given thee but a little handfull though tares be sowen with it This is a Treasure what vessell is fit for it yet it is but in an earthen one that the glory may be of God SONNE What should you be medling with the Scriptures and the Churches doctrine rather according to sobrietie walke in un Implicit Faith resigning your selfe to the holy Church and the holy Church to his Holinesse I pray you what say you for your practise your capacitie may master that MOTHER Take heed the tongue is an unruly member Search the Scriptures it an indefinite iniunction Timothie knew them of a Child and by them was made wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Iesus 2. Tim. 3. 15. the neglect of them is the ground of error yee erre because ye know not the Scriptures It is our happines that wee have them our sure instruction that wee read them our condemnation if wee seeke for truth from any els though he who is translated into an Angell of light nay though an Angell from heaven should bring it Wee looke unto the Scripture to seeke counsell from them as
from our Oracle our Pillar our Rule but wee resignelour waies to the Lord by whom our thoughts are established And this shall aggravate your Iudgement that whereas the Lord hath written unto you the great things of his law ye have accompted them a light thing And further thy Mother is perswaded that so long as thou hast neglect of such a treasure and wilt hearken to the traditions of men thou wilt continue a foole though thou shouldest bee braid in a morter Concerning our practise I have something to say for it something against it thou shalt have it presently First I thinke it fit in the way to remove some strawes call them so comparatively thy Mother would not have a straw lie in her Sonnes way homewards a and herein I am the more warie because it will plainly appeare that thou hast stumbled at a straw and leap't over a blocke Consider then with mee that there may be some errors in points of doctrine not Fundamentall not trenching upon that onely and alone sacrifice once offered for sinne since which all sacrifices must cease whether bloudie or vnbloudie which errors not fundamentall the fire may consume yet the person bee saved Againe that there may be some faults in practise and those foule ones too which Charitie should helpe with both hir shoulders but if strength be wanting that way or the mantle too short yet Charity hath done it's part That all this may bee and is I gather it thus A wide doore was opened what did follow then many adversaries saith Paul The Husbandman was sowing his seede where was the enuious man As neere unto him a● Satan was to the Priests right hand to resist him Zech. 3. and he casts his hand as well as the seedes-man and perhaps faster too because the seedes-man sleepes sometimes but the envious man is wakefull and he bestir● himselfe In this place he throwes a handfull and in that a handfull yet it is a field still and the great Landlord saith let them grow up together untill harvest then they shall be seperated Now Child that I may bring this to o●● purpose and thereby shew thee how thou hast stumbled at a straw and loap'● over a block I returne to the first againe and say that as there are certaine principles of the doctrine of Christ and of faith which must first be laid and upon which other truthes are to be built so must not the foundation be confounded with the wall or roofe nor light errors bee made fundamentall From hence thou art to take this into thy consideration yet there is time That the errors of the Antichristian Church whereunto thou art joyned as Ephraim to Idolls doe trench upon the carner-stone elect and pretious than which none must lay any it be a foundation thus thou didst leape over a blocke Againe thou hast seperated from us I hope but for a season that wee may receive thee for ever at the ten Tribes if I may compart small things with great rented from Ierusalem the onely true instituted Church in the world which was then on individuall not many as now and this by Idolatry thus thou didst leape over a block To the second faults in practise they are confe'st I thinke the Harlot heard me plead guilty It was the best way sure unlesse one could have proved that the envious man had done nothing Be it granted then yet what is the Tares to the good soedes what is the chaffe to the wheat Good seed is good feed for all the tares wheat wheat notwithstanding the Chaffe Be it that we have both of our Shepheards and of their flocke to such whose walking is no whit answerable to that it should be Then the Scripture calls them Idolls Zech. 11. 17. And wee know an Idoll is nothing What can be inferred thence what though an Idoll hath nothing but the superficies outmost proportion of a man it sees not it heares not it speakes not It will not follow that therefore the living doe not praise God Though a lye bee nothing truth is something Thy questioning hereof puts me in mind of a strange speech that was uttered by one whose conceit was stronger then his reason and his love weaker then either He was once as hee thought over-reach't by a minister well said he for this tricke I will never trust a black-coat againe A good Item to those of that Coate that they walk circumspectly as examples in word in conversation in spirit in faith in puritie ● Tim. 4. 12. Considering their profession will take soyle as soone as their cloth so that the one as much requires a wakefull eye over it as the other a brush yet still offences will be taken But let us examine the former speech If so be that words make a Commentary on the heart as well as actions they say they doe and the one bewrayes a man as well as the other then I can discerne no difference betweene that man we now heard of and this I am now telling you of who very wisely put his drink into a sive and because the sive deceaved him and let his drinke out would not bee perswaded afterwards to trust his dish no that he would not Think you as you please of the one and the other I am sure here was an extreame The dish would have held it though the siue did not I must not lay the blame upon all because some walke not as they should doe The faults of a counterfeit must not cast dyrt into the face of a gracious profession no nor may any mans faults though never so scandalous bring contempt upon the doctrine As it was under the Law so is it now under the Gospell Aarons Priesthood was holy though Nadab and Abihu did that the Lord commanded them not The sacrifice holy though Elies sonnes were wicked That the offering of the Lord was abhorred was the peoples fault Yet woe befell them who gave the offence and it shall certainly overtake all such as goe on in their steppes But all this while there is no warrant for abhorring the offering There is a treasurie in earthly vessells the treasure sanctifies not the vessell nor the vessell pollutes the treasure Moses Chaire cannot make the Scribe the holier nor can the unholinesse of the Scribe pollute Moses Doctrine No mans sinnes should bring the service of God into dislike SONNE Yea but you have been speaking of your doctrin and you haue I know not how fitly compared it to a treasure and to wheat and I know not what this makes against you For we say sow wheat and reape wheat MOTHER It is most true For what a man sowes that shall he reape but you know the envious man sowed Tares then by the same reason there will bee tares too As envious as the man is he must have his crop SONNE This doth not satisfio mee we have read that Truth is strongest and doth preuaile it brings a power with it MOTHER That it