persist They affirme and that constantlie that there is a general errour and defection of the church of Rome foreshewed in the scriptures and therefore cald them Apostataes and matched them with Atheistes seeing it is nowe made manifest to the world that they are departed from the doctrine of Christ his Apostles c. you call them backe and say we gladlie acknowledge them to be of the familie of Iesus Christ and to be helde and reputed a parte of the house of God and a limme of the visible church of Christ. And therefore you are bolde to affirme that we seuer not our selues from the church we were of before In the Church we were we are so still We are here in a streight except you helpe vs out For if we beleeue you we must thinke our reverend Fathers to haue misledd vs all this while either of malice or ignorance if wee beleeue them we must thinke that Mai. Hoo. is verie arrogant and presumptuous to make him self the onelie Rabbi We pray you therefore to reconcile these two iudgemēts that men fall not away to looke back into Egypt or else explane your minde further shew vs some cleere demonstration of that you intende whether you be not sorrie that wee are departed from the vnitie of that Sea or that you thinke they erre not in matters of faith that all these great disputes about the church and bloodie dissentions and conflicts come by ouersight and too great zeale and for want of knowledge in our Reverend Fathers in all those millions of learned men that haue franklie giuen their blood for the detection and departing from that church as from Antichrist and an Apostata And heere wee pray you to shew vs out of divine trueth your rule to discerne a Congregation to bee a member of the visible Church whether whosoeuer holdeth anie one professeth trueth differing from infidelitie may be reputed a member of the visible church and whether you meane by infidelitie nothing els but that which is not taught by the gospell of Iesus Christ and they which holde anie part of that which you call supernaturall trueth that is as we take it of that trueth which men know no otherwise but by the worde of God they are not fallen into an Apostasie c. And heere we craue your iudgement of the Turke how your rule fitteth them For as wee thinke by reading his Alcoran hee holdeth some mayne pointes of christian trueth as namelie these There is one God and that he created all things without labour or wearines and that he preserueth the things created faith is giuen and augmented of God He forbiddeth the adoring of saintes and images affirmeth God to hate and abhorre the arte of Magicke and teacheth the resurrection of all men from the dead Shewe vs now whether the Turke be not of the familie of IESVS Christ. Lastlie we pray you to open vnto vs that seeing you saye the church of Rome is the house of God whether a man continuing in that house and neuer comming out to holde the true beleefe of Christ as we doe in England but renouncing and persecuting it to the death whether such a one may be saued if yea why need we seuer our selues to so great trouble from her grosse and grieuous abhominations if they bee not such as can extinguish our faith to our destruction If no why doe you not ioyne with our Reverend Fathers to abandon that house where there is no saluation Of Gods house it is said It is the grounde pillar of trueth The habitation of God by his spirit and the glorious rest of Christ. In which God loueth to dwell and wherin he hath delight and the same hee will blesse in victualles Priestes and Saintes So that such as be planted in that house shal florish in the courts of our God they shall still bring forth fruite in their age c. Shew vs wee pray you whether these thinges may bee applied to the church of Rome rightlie and essentiallie and what comfort wee may haue by departing from her communion if shee be a parte of the house of God c. and these things we pray you to averre not by humane witnesse but by that which commeth down frō heauen So did Elias Againe out of this article ariseth another noe smal scruple where our church constantlie affirmeth that The visible church is that cōgregation of faithfull people wherein the pure worde of God is preached Wherevpon the Reuerend Fathers of our church publickely teach that The true preaching of the word is an essential note of the church For which cause they interpret the parable of the seede in this sorte God is the husbandman the Preachers of the worde are the seede sowers the seede is the worde of God the grounde is the hearts of men c. And Therefore Christ did sende his Apostles to preach the Gospell that thereby they might be brought to the beleefe of the Church And To this preaching he annexed such force of his holie spirit that it had greater strength and authoritie then all the eloquence then all the wisedome then all the learning then al the pollicie and power of the worlde and that not onely in the Apostles but also in the Preachers who haue restored the pure light of the Gospell in these latter dayes euen in those countries whose Princes and people were professed aduersaries therof vnto which accordeth the holy scriptures calling this preaching A gifte of the grace of God to admonishe euery man and to teach euery man in all wisedome that wee may present euery man perfect in Christ Jesus Which thinges maketh vs much to muse what you meane where you say Sith speach is the verie image whereby the minde and soule of the speaker conveyeth it selfe into the bosome of him that heareth We can not chuse but see great reason wherefore the worde that proceedeth from God who is in him selfe very trueth and life should be as the Apostle to the Hebrewes noteth liuelie and mightie in operation sharper then any two edged sworde Now if in this and the like places we did conceaue that our owne sermons are that strong and forcible worde should we not euen heereby imparte euen the most peculiar glorie of the worde of God vnto that which is not his worde For touching our sermons that whiche giueth them their verie being is the will of man and therefore they oftentimes accordinglie taste too much of that ouercorrupt fountaine from which they come Heere Mai. Hoo. we are hampered with your words because they seeme to vs contrarie to the iudgement of our church We therefore desire you hartilie to resolue vs what you meane in this place by sermons whether it be not all one with that our Fathers call preaching of the word consisting in teaching and exhorting by the worde of God secondlie what you meane by the being of
telling Abraham his couenant reached to his seede and by differring the seale of the same to witt circumcision to the eight day You Maister Hoo. speake to our vnderstanding a farre differing language namely Predestination bringeth not to life without the grace of externall vocation wherein our baptisme is implyed For as wee are not naturallie men without birth so neither are we christian men in the eie of the church of God but by new birth nor according to the ordinarie course of divine dispensation new borne but by that baptisme which both declareth and maketh vs christians in which respect we holde it to bee the doore of our actuall entrance into Gods house the first apparant beginning of life a seale perhaps to the grace of election before receaved but to our sanctification heere a stepp that hath not any before it And againe The fruit of Baptisme dependeth onely upon the couenant whiche God hath made that God by couenant requireth of the elder sorte fayth and Baptisme in childrē the sacrament of Baptisme alone And in another place We haue for baptisme no day sett as the Iewes had for circumcision neither haue wee by the lawe of God but onely by the churches discretion a place therevnto appointed Baptisme therfore euen in the meaning of the lawe of Christ belongeth vnto infantes capable thereof from the verie instant of their birth which if they haue not howsoeuer rather then loose it by being put of because the time the place or some such like circumstance doth not solemnly enough concurre the church as much as in her lyeth wilfullie casteth away their soules Heere are we at our wittes ende not knowing what to beleeue For if our English confession bee true that baptisme is a signe of regeneration and visibly sealeth our remission of sinnes and adoption and increaseth grace c. we know not what to make of that you say Baptisme to be the first apparant beginning of life a seale perhaps of the grace of election and that there is no stepp of sanctification before Baptisme And againe if it be true as you say Predestination bringeth not life without the grace of externall vocation wherein baptisme is implyed what shall we thinke of that our Reverend Fathers say A man by Gods free election is holy and pure and that before Baptisme a man may stande in the state of salvation And if our churches doctrine be true that baptisme is a seale of remission of sinnes and that the Sacramentes make not the couenantes but are seales of the covenantes howe can yours bee true that by couenant God requireth fayth and baptisme in the elder and baptisme alone in children Is baptisme parte of the couenant and more then a seale And seeing our Reverend Fathers affirme that God and well ordered churches forbidd baptisme by women and that God hath not inthralled his church to such vrgent necessitie and that such doctrine is fearfull iniurious and blasphemous and our sweete and tender Father hath saide I will be thy God and thy childes not adding anie condition of baptisme if it cannot be had as it ought How can it bee well in you to make it a bloodie and wilfull casting away of soules if the church provide not that children haue baptisme howsoeuer And heere we pray you to teach vs whether the couenant and Sacramentes in the Gospell bee not the same in nature virtue and substance that they were vnder the lawe or that our Sacramentes haue more necessitie And if so why our Reverend Fathers disavow the necessitie of Baptisme to be done anie other wise then as it ought because God appointed circumcisiō till the eight day is there a further grace in our sacramēts or haue they not somewhat in the worke wrought whiche the Sacramentes of the law had not We pray you therefore plainelie and distinctlie to shew vs your minde whether righteousnes cōmeth by baptisme or by faith And seeing notwithstanding all these harde and peremptorie speaches you sometimes saye that grace is not absolutelie tyed to sacramentes and the necessitie of receaving not so absolute as that of administring the Sacramentes Wee would faine knowe what you holde and affirme what manner of necessitie you meane For if grace be not absolutelie tyed vnto Sacraments and necessitie of receaving Sacraments not absolute we knowe not what should make necessitie of administring absolute but that as our Reverend Fathers say we are not enthralled to appoint or suffer it to bee done by Women or lay persons if it cannot be had as it ought and if GOD haue not added any such condition of baptisme where borrowed you that distinction Wee can not tell where to finde you or how to take your meaning or at the least that your minde concurreth with the doctrine of the church of Englande we expect therefore and pray you to declare faithfullie these thinges vnto vs. The Church of Englande pronounceth that The Transubstantiation of the bread and wine in the Eucharist can not bee proued by the sacred Scripture but is against playne wordes of Scripture overturneth the nature of the sacrament hath giuē occasion of many superstitions And for this cause our Reverend Fathers call it A monstrous blasphemous doctrine bringing in doubt the trueth of Christs body Contrarie to Christes wordes sayinge It is expedient that I goe awaye Joh. 16. 7. and to that of Peter Whom the heauens must contayne vntill the time that all things bee restored Act. 3. 21. disagreeing from the articles of faith Hee ascended into heauen sitteth at the right hande of God the Father c. making voyde the institution of Christ which is to continue till he come c. casting holy things to prophane as whoremongers murderers c. mise and dogges to receaue the true reall body of Christ. causing most cruell eating of mans fleshe and manie monstrous miracles accidentes without subjectes the body of Christ without his qualities and true manner of a bodye nourishinge the Marcionist to beleeue the phantasticall body of Christ and Eutichians confounding the two natures of Christ and therefore they which affirme transubstantiation are indeed right Sacramentaries and Capernaites In regarde whereof we intreate you Mai. Hoo. to make a fitt construction of your wordes were you say Sith we all agree that by the sacrament Christ doeth reallie and truelie in vs performe his promise why doe we vainely trouble our selues with so fearce contentions whether by consubstantiation or els by transubstātiation the sacrament it selfe be first possessed with Christ or no a thing which no way can eyther further or hinder vs howsouer it stande because our participation of Christ in the Sacrament depēdeth on the cooperatiō of his omnipotent power which maketh it his body and blood vnto vs whether with change or without alteration of the element such as they imagine we neede not greatlie to care nor inquire after In all which words you seeme to
faith professed by the English church is this There is one true and living God c. And Although we acknowledge the three persons to be God and Lord yet the Godhead of the Father and the Sonne is all one c. Here we craue of you Maister Hoo. to explaine your owne meaninge where you saye The Father alone is originallie that Deitie which Christ originallie is not Howe the Godhead of the Father and of the Sonne be all one and yet originallie not the same Deitie And then teach vs how farre this differeth from the heresie of Arius who sayeth of God the Sonne There was when he was not who yet graunteth that he was before all creatures of thinges which were not Whether such wordes weaken not the eternitie of the Sonne in the opiniō of the simple or at the least make the Sōne inferior to the Father in respect of the Godhead or els teach the ignorant there be many Gods Another foundation of our beleef The Sonne is the Worde of the Father from euerlasting begotten of the Father c. and the holy Ghost proceeding from the Father and the Sonne Where we holde the coeternitie of the Sonne with the Father by expresse litterall mētion in the Scriptures found in these wordes The Lord hath possessed me in the beginning of his way c. And agayne In the beginning was the Worde and the Worde was with God and the Worde was God c. And againe Glorifie mee thou Father with thine own selfe with the glorie which I had with thee before the world was And we holde the proceeding of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne by like expresse wordes of holy scripture namelie When the Comforter shall come whom I will send vnto you from the Father euen the spirit of trueth which proceedeth of the Father c. Shew we pray you your full meaning where you say The coeternitie of the Sonne of God with his Father and the proceeding of the spirit from the Father and the Sonne are in scripture no where to be found by expresse litterall mention Whether there bee not expresse litterall mention of these two pointes in the former alleadged places and whether such maner of speeches may not worke a scruple in the weak christian to doubt of these articles or at the least so vnderproppe the popish traditions that menne may the rather fauour their allegations when they see vs fayne to borrow of them The Church of Englande professeth Holye Scripture contayneth all things which are necessarie to saluation so that whatsoeuer is neither read in it neither can be proued thereby is not to be exacted of any man that it should bee beleeued as an article of faith or should be thought to be required vnto the necessitie of saluation You on the other side saye In actions of this kinde speaking of direct immediate and proper necessitie final to saluation our chiefest direction is from scripture and agayne The insufficiencie of the light of nature is by the light of scripture fullie and perfectlie supplied And in another place It sufficeth that nature and scripture doe serue in such full sorte that they both iointlie and not seuerallie eyther of them be so compleate that vnto euerlasting felicitie we need not the knowledge of anie thing more then these two c. Where you seeme vnto vs that although you exclude traditions as a part of supernaturall trueth yet you infer that the light of nature teacheth some knowledge naturall whiche is necessarie to saluation and that the Scripture is a supplement and making perfect of that knowledge Which being cōpared vnto pag. 127. where you affirme that the wante of moral vertues exclude from saluation And pag. 82. where you make faith hope charitie to be taught only by supernatural trueth It seemeth to vs that naturall light teaching morall virtues teacheth thinges necessarie to saluation whiche yet is not perfect without that which supernaturall knowledge in holy Scripture reveileth Heere wee pray you to explane your owne meaning whether you thinke that there be anie naturall light teaching knowledge of things necessarie to saluation which knowledge is not contayned in holy scripture if you thinke no How then say you before Not the scripture severallie but nature and scripture iointlie be compleate vnto euerlasting felicitie If you say yea how then agree you with the beleef of our Church which affirmeth that holy scripture contayneth all thinges necessarie to salvation And here we pray you to shew vs whether nature reach anie thing touchinge Christ whether without or beside him any thing be necessarie whether that in him we be not copleate Lastlie whether you meane that the knowledge of humane wisedome concerning God haue anie thinge not expressed in Scripture or that morall virtues are any where rightlie taught but in holy scriptu or that whersoeuer they be taught they be of such necessitie that the wante of them exclude from salvation and what scripture approueth such a saying or that cases and matters of salvation bee determinable by any other lawe then of holy scripture And then tell vs howe you vnderstande these places following and howe they agree with this your position of the light of nature and morall virtues A man is iustified by faith without the workes of the law Neither is there salvation in anie other For there is no other name which is giuen vnder heauen amongst men by which we must be saued The naturall man perceaueth not the thinges of the spirit of God for they are foolishnes vnto him c. Except a man be borne againe hee can not see the kingdome of God The Reverend Fathers of our church to avouch our forsaking of the Antichristian sinagogue of Rome cleauing to the scriptures of God doe so farre make the iudgement of the scriptures aboue the Church that with the auncient Fathers they say In time of dissention it is most behoofefull for the people to haue recourse vnto the scriptures and that wee may in no wise beleeue the Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe such thinges as bee agreeable to the Scriptures The triall of scriptures is necessarie to discerne the true church from all false congregations which all boast of the spirit of trueth as much as the true church And Only scriptures are a sufficient warrand to euery Christian to trie what is the word of God and what is the worde of man c. But you Maist. Hoo. doe saye It is not the worde of God which doeth or possiblie can assure vs that we doe well to thinke it is his worde And againe By experience we all know that the first outwarde motiue leading men so to esteeme of the scripture is the authoritie of Gods Church And a litle before Scripture teacheth vs that sauing trueth which God hath discouered to
the world by reuelation and it presumeth vs taught otherwise that it selfe is diuine sacred Here we beseech you Mai. Hoo. that if as our Reverend Fathers affirme wee may noe otherwise beleeue the Churches them selues but as they agree to the scriptures that by them the true church is to be discerned c. and that onely scriptures sufficientlie warrant the triall of Gods worde what certaintie of saluation wee can haue in anie presuming or motiue by the church if the scripture cānot assure vs that it is the word of God Are not these contradictorie Tell vs therefore if your meaning be not that the authoritie of the church must do that which the scripture cannot doe namelie to assure vs that they are the word of God And our reuerend Fathers say The church can not so assure vs vnlesse we trie it first to be the true church by the scriptures Are not these contradictorie They say Onely Scriptures warrand vs what is the worde of God you say they cannot assure vs of the worde of God but presume vs to be taught that thinge otherwise Are not these contradictorie Haue we not here good cause to suspect the vnderpropping of a popish principle cōcerning the churches authoritie aboue the holy Scripture to the disgrace of the English church If not then recōcile your assertions vnto theirs and shew mercie and trueth vnto our reverend Fathers And therewithal we pray you to expound either by experience or otherwise Whether the worde of God was receaued in the world and beleeued by men by the virtue and authoritie of the witnesses either Prophets or Apostles or the holy church or that such witnesses were not esteemed for the wordes sake and the Church alway approued both by God faithfull men as the same was described commended and ordered by the rule of holy scripture What thinke you of the beautifull feete that bringe glad tydings and of the Kings who for reuerence stopped their mouthes at it The people pricked in harte at Peters preaching And the men of Berea searching the scriptures whether that in all these the testimonie of man as Prophet Apostle or church did authorise the word of God that it was beleeued or the demonstration of the spirituall power of the word it selfe And was not this the meaning of Saint Paule when reiecting letters of cōmendation hee affirmeth that the Corinthians were his epistle written in their heartes which is vnderstood and read of all menne c. Doeth he not preferre the power of the worde testifying of it selfe by the conversion of the heart before all other motiues and by it he him selfe was authorised in their consciences and not it by him Lastlie shew vs where you finde that the scripture presumeth vs taught otherwise c. What thinke you Is it of man or by man or of God that it so presumeth or doe not you presume against the worde of God to set vp mans testimonie when we know that the testimonie of God is greater When the Iewes and the Gentiles did both oppose them selues against the gospel what did it presume vpon was it not of it selfe the two edged sworde pearching into the marrow of the bones the rodde of iron to crush in peeces the Nations and the armour spirituall to bring in subiection euery thought vnto the obedience of the knowledge of God The Church of England professeth this groūd of faith Without the grace of God which is by Christ preventing vs that we will and working togither while we will we are nothing at all able to doe the workes of pietie which are pleasing and acceptable to God You to our vnderstāding write cleane cōtrarie namelie there is in the will of man naturallie that freedome whereby it is apt to take or refuse anie particular obiect whatsoeuer being presented vnto it And a litle after There is not that good which concerneth vs but it hath euidence enough for it self If reason were diligent to search it out Heere we pray your helpe to teach vs how will is apt as you say freelie to take or refuse anie particular obiect what soeuer that reason by diligence is able to find out anie good concerning vs If it bee true that the Church of England professeth that without the preventing and helping grace of God we can will and doe nothing pleasing to God To which beleefe of Englande the scripture accordeth shewing that without the said grace of God we are dead in sinnes and trespasses we are not sufficient of our selues to thinke anie thing It is God which worketh in vs the will and the deede euen of his good pleasure Shew vs therefore howe your positions agree with our church and the scriptures If you say you vnderstande reason and will helpe by the grace of God then tell vs how we may perceaue it by your writing whiche putteth difference betwixt naturall and supernaturall trueth lawes If you meane reason vncorrupted not respecting how in trueth we are by Adams fall perverted may wee not suspect that your whole discourse is subtill and cunning because you pretend the naturall way of finding out lawes by reason to guide the will vnto that which is good pag. 59. 62. 63. c. or at the least friuoulous seeing man hath no such reason without the grace of GOD if you meane without the grace of God and in the state of corruption as in deed all men naturallie nowe are Heere wee desire to be taught how such sayings ouerthrow not our English creed and the holy scripture in this matter and therewithall shewe vs the true meaning of Saint Paule and how he fitteth your discourse in this place namelie when he saith Rom. 8. 7. The wisedome of the flesh is ennimitie against God for it is not subiect vnto the law of God neither in deed can be The Church of England beleeueth Onely for the meritt of our Lorde and Sauiour Iesus Christ through faith and not for workes and our merites we are accounted righteous before God You saye The way of supernaturall duetie which to vs he hath prescribed our Sauiour in the Gospell of Saint John doeth note terming it by an excellēcie the worke of God This is the worke of God that you beleeue in him whom he hath sente not that God doeth require nothing at the handes of men vnto happines sauing only a naked beleefe for hope and charitie we may not exclude but that without beleefe all other thinges are as nothing and it is the ground of those other diuine virtues And againe The same things diuine lawe also teacheth as at large we haue shewed it doeth all partes of morall duetie wherevnto we all of necessitie stande bounde in regard of life to come And in another place Euery mans religion is in him selfe the well-spring of all other sound and sincere verities from whence both heere in some sorte
we not keepe our robe pure and without spot vntill the comming of Christ and so bee iustified more and more by our works as the popish Cannons teach but pray by Christes commaundement euery day Forgiue vs our trespasses The Church of England beleeueth that Predestination vnto life is the eternal purpose of God whereby before the foundations of the world were layde hee constantlie decreed by his counsell vnto vs vnknowen to deliuer from the curse destruction them whom he chose in Christ out of mankinde as vessells made vnto honour through Christ to bring them to eternall saluation Wherevppon they who are indowed with so excellent benefit of God are called according to his purpose and that by his spirit working in a fitt time But you Mai. Hoo. seeme to vs to affirme contrarie when you say If anie man doubt how God should accept such prayers in case they be opposite to his will or not graunt them if they be according to that him selfe willeth Our aunswer is that such sutes God accepteth in that they are conformable to his generall inclination which is that all men might be saued yet alwayes he graunteth them not for so much as there is in God a more priuate occasioned will which determineth the contrarie Heere we begge your ayde to make manifest vnto vs howe God eternallie predestinateth by a constant decree them whom he calleth and saueth as our Church professeth and yet hath as you say a generall inclination that all men might be saued Whether he foresaw not something that occasioned his will otherwise so that he elected not all but onely them whom he calleth and saueth or that of his generall inclination he elected all men but some more privatelie occasioned him in time to alter his will and to refuse them or that some men gaue God occasiō that he saueth them though he neuer decreed it before the foundations of the world What meant the blessed Apostle where he sayeth Whom he predestinated them also he called and whom he called them also he iustified c. Is this to bee vnderstoode of a constant decree as we say or of an inclination Hee sayeth God worketh all thinges after the counsell of his owne will Is this to be vnderstood that vpon occasion sometimes hee either altereth his counsell or decreeth something which hee had not thought vpon before Saint Iames saith that In God there is no variablenes nor shadowe of turning Is not this more then a variablenes or shadow of turning to incline one way and upon occasion to decree another Doe not these wordes of yours giue some place vnto chaunce and fortune Doe they not make GOD as a man not of an all-sufficient knowledge wisedome and counsell but inclinable some one way till by occasion he finde a more better way Where is that God you speake of in your first booke of whom and through whom and for whom are all things And where is that law by which he worketh which you there call aeternall and therefore can haue no shew or colour of mutabilitie Haue we not cause to feare that the wittie schoolemen haue seduced you and by their conceited distinctions made you forget That you are neither able nor worthie to open and looke into the booke of Gods law by which he guideth the worlde And yet you will say There is in God an occasioned will Good Mai. Hoo. helpe vs heere and shewe vs howe we may thinke that you incline not to the errour of poperie touching workes forseene and that you fauour our churches beleefe The Churche of Englande doeth confesse That the church of Christ is a companie of faithfull people among whom the pure worde of God is preached the Sacramentes rightlie administred according to Christes institution c. and that the church of Rome hath erred not onely in maners ceremonies but also in matters of faith Which by the Reverend Fathers of our Church is expounded thus Without Christ the church is no church neither hath anie right or claime without his promise nor anie promise without his worde The church of Rome being as it is now vtterlie voyd of Gods word is as a lanterne without light We haue departed from that church which they haue made a denne of theeues and in which they haue left nothing sound or like to a church which thē selues did cōfesse to haue erred in manie things euen as Lot in olde time out of Sodom or Abraham out of Chaldea c. The generall error and defection of the popish Sinagogue frō Christ his true Church foreshewed in the scriptures is now manifest to the world by dissention from Christ and his holy Apostles doctrine and from the doctrine of the churches by the Apostles foūded And for this cause they call the heresie of that Romish church Apostasia Romanensium ab Ecclesia The Apostasie of the Romish rabble frō the church And they cal the Pope Apostatam Antichristum an Apostata Antichrist And binde vp in one bundle Idolaters superstitious persons papistes and Atheistes constantlie affirming that among English christians no other thing is ment by the name of papistes then heretickes and traytours Antichristians and Apostataes enemies to God their Prince and their countrie Now we finde in you these peremptorie affirmations With Rome we dare not cōmunicate concerning sundrie her grosse grieuous abhominations yet touching those maine partes of christian trueth wherein they constantlie still persist we gladlie acknowledge them to be of the familie of Iesus Christ. And a little before We hope that to reforme our selues if at anie time we haue done amisse is not to seuer our selues from the church wee were of before In the church we were and we are so still And in another place you would haue men To acknowledge that it is due to the church of Rome to be held reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible church of Christ. And your principall reason seemeth to be because you say That whiche separateth vtterlie That which cutteth off cleane from the visible church of Christ is plaine Apostasie direct deniall vtter reiection of the whole christian faith as farre as the sonne is professedly different from infidelitie Heere you seeme vnto vs to come foorth as an other Elias to bring againe the people vnto the God of their Fathers They say that the church of Rome hath erred not onely in manners but also in matters of fayth You you call thē backe and say Sundrie grosse and grieuous abhominations They say that the church of Rome as it is nowe is vtterlie voyde of Gods word as a lanterne without light and that it is a denne of theeues in which they haue left nothing soūd or like a church but is like Sodom c. You call them backe and say That they haue mayne partes of christian trueth wherein they constantlie
make light of the doctrine of transubstantiation as a matter not to be stoode vpon or to bee contended for cared for or enquired into Which maketh vs to marvell howe our Church and Reverende Fathers haue all this time passed bene deceaued What should cause them to affirme it to bee a thing contrarie to the playne wordes of scripture ouerturning the nature of the Sacrament to call it monstrous doctrine why so manie reverend Fathers as Crammer Ridley Hooper Latimer Rogers Bradford c. haue giuen their liues in witnes against it if it bee a thinge that neither furthereth nor hindreth a thing not to bee cared for nor enquired after And heere we pray you ingeniously to shew whether your meaning bee to bring that side into creditt by softening the odiousnes of their heresie and our side into suspition of peeuishnes for standing upon trifles which the rather we desire to be resolued in because else where you call the enemies to Transubstantiation Sacramentaries and labour to shew a certayne vbiquitie of Christes manhoode and of his bodie and of his soule which seemeth to vs that you would giue a gentle construction of Popish opinions and privilie robbe the trueth of our English creede of her due estimation If you call our Reverend Fathers Sacramentaries for oppugning transubst and they againe call the maintayners of it right Sacramentaries and Capernaites if you haue giuen as good testimonie of faithfulnes as they whom shall wee beleeue are you not contradictorie and may we thinke you can favour that side your wordes doe beate downe shew vs then wee pray you how shuch great fauours doe not preiudice the doctrine of the church of Englande or not condemne those millions of learned diuines and blessed Martirs of extreme follie who haue died for the same and that God should reveale to you onely that it was for that which neither furthered nor hurteth Lastly instruct vs whether the institution of the Sacrament by Christ saying this is my bodie doe this in remembrance of mee bee not the true and right making of it Christes bodie and blood vnto vs and vppon what ground of Scripture it may bee proued that the cooperation of his omnipotent power doeth make it his bodie and blood vnto vs and in what sense And whether such phrases doe not helpe the Popish argument of Gods power which they commonly vse to approue their transubstantiation There be also in your book diuers Theoremes not so familiar to vs common Christians neither doe we perceaue them in the English Creede neither in the reading of the holy writinges of God Wee pray you therefore declare vnto vs by what spirit or worde you teach them vnto vs. what foundation they haue in holie writt and how they pertaine to the faith or discipline of the English church Such as are these Tenne the number of natures perfections Angels perpetuitie the hand that draweth out celestiall motion Church attyre with vs liuely resembleth the glorie of Saints in heauen Daylie bruses spirituall promotions vse to take by often falling Multiplied petitions of worldly things a kinde of heauenly fraud to take the soules of men as with certaine baytes In Baptisme God doeth bestow presently remission of sinnes and the holy Ghost binding also himselfe to adde in processe of time what grace soeuer shalbe further necessarie for the attaynement of euerlasting life The signe of the Crosse as wee use it is in some sorte a meane to worke our preseruation from reproch and Christes marke Assuredly whosoeuer doeth well obserue how much all inferior things depende vpon the orderlie courses and motions of those greater orbs will hardely iudge it meete or good that the Angells assisting them should bee driven to betake them selues vnto other stations although by nature they were not tyed where now they are but had charge also elsewhere as long as their absence from beneath might but tollerablie be supplied by descending their roomes aboue should become vacant and such like whereof your writinge is not a little stored but shewe vs onely concerning these that if all Angells be ministring spirits sent forth to minister for their sakes which shall bee heyres of salvation as Gods spirit testifyeth where is it reveyled that they attende vppon the celestiall orbes or that their perpetuitie is the hande that draweth out celestiall motion and if they doe whether it be not sinne in them to leaue their naturall charge and to attende vpon that whiche they are not tyed vnto Doe you not meane the Angells which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation whom God hath reserved in everlasting chaynes vnder darkenes vnto the iudgement of the great day or would you haue the elect Angells to bee like vnto the Angell of the bottomlesse pitt whose name is Abbaddon When where or how did Christ rell thee that the signe of the crosse as we vse it is the marke of Christ and preserueth from reproch and what warrant haue you of present grace in the verie worke wrought of Baptisme did you see in the mountaine of God the patterne of that heauenlie fraude which you say is to catch men by multiplied petitions of worldlie thinges And what bee the bruses and falls that spirituall promotions ordayned by Christ doe or can take And howe doeth it appeare in nature or from the God of nature that ten is the number of natures perfections The Reverend Fathers of our Church call M r Calvin one of the best writers A reverend Father a worthie ornament of the church of God not onelie defending the same doctrine but also discharging him of slanderous reportes wrongfullie layed against him knowing that by defaming the persons of christians and especiallie of Ministers the Devill of olde time laboured to ouerthrowe the Gospell of Christ. Howe greatlie all christian churches are to prayse God for that mans faithfull labours and how instantlie therefore all sortes of papistes haue and doe indevour and striue to diminish his creditt all the christian worlde most aboundlie both by word and by writing doe testifie Wherefore we wonder not a little What moved you to make choyse of that worthie pillar of the church aboue all other to traduce him and to make him a spectacle before all christians Wherefore wee craue your fauour that with trueth and patience you would answere our doubtes scruples which by the preface of your first booke you haue made in vs concerning him And firste what Maister Calvin hath done against our Church that you should single him out as an adversarie Which of our Reverend Fathers of this lande hath wished you therevnto or else tell vs plainlie whether our adversaries in whose mouthes you are a most invincible champion haue not provoked you against him And open vnto vs without deceite ingenuously whether all the learned men of our covntrie who haue writtē and disputed for discipline be not to
for the vse of those great giftes which God hath bestowed vpon you that you woulde returne and pervse advisedlie all your five bookes compare them with the articles of our profession set out by publick authoritie and with the workes Apologeticall other authorised sermons homilies of our church and of the Reverend Fathers of our Lande and with the holie booke of God and all other the Queenes Maiesties proceedings and then read and examine with an indifferent equall minde a booke sett out in Latin called Querimonia Ecclesiae and an other in Englishe late come abroade speaking of Scotizing and Genevatising Allobrogicall Discipline and having maturelie with a iudicious cōscience in the feare of God pondered and wayed them in the ballance of trueth and iustice then tell vs roundlie and soothelie That if the Reverende Fathers of our church assisted with some of the approved divines of both Vniversies did reade peruse and examine your bookes and those two other bookes whether they would not iudge in their conscience and giue sentence with their mouthes that by those three writinges the Church of Englande and all other christian Churches are vndermined and that they are verie notable bellowes if Gods mercie stayed it not to blowe the coales of sedition and fierie civill warre betweene all christian Churches and to make all people who reade them to fall either flatly to Atheisme or backewarde to poperie when they shall see all godlie Ministers and christian churches by men of their owne side and profession to be so openlie traduced and notoriouslie detected and all the articles of our Religion many partes of our church government to be checked blamed or cōtradicted And might they not thinke that the Popes factors in Englande haue some intelligence with such writers Or is that new found discipline so neerlie seated with our English creed that such expert archers ayming at the one must needes hit the other Our last scruple and demaund is this seeing your bookes bee so long and tedious in a stile not vsuall and as wee verelie thinke the like harde to be found farre differing from the simplicitie of holie Scripture and nothing after the frame of the writinges of the Reverend and learned Fathers of our church as of Crammer Ridley Latimer Iewell Whitgeeft Fox Fulke c. And that your Prefaces and discourses before you come to the question are so longe mingled with all kinde of matters and sutes of learning and doctrine whether your meaning bee to shewe your selfe to bee some rare Demosthenes or extraordinarie Rabbi or some great Pythagoras that enioyne your schollars or your adversaries to fiue yeares silence before they can be perfect in your meaning or able to replye or that these men you write against bee not sounde in matters of fayth and therefore you handle all thinges or else you had no better way to make doubtfull the chief groundes of our faith and religion and that you would haue men better seene in Philosophie and schoolemens diuinitie and namelie in Aristotle or that you were afearde that if you had not handled it with so graue heroicall and loftie a maiestie you should haue bene reputed like some other man and so your same should haue bene but small or that you would wearie your aduersarie with such thicke and continuall fallinge strokes that hee should not bee able to stande before you to strike one blow against you or that you would beare downe the cause with swelling wordes of vanitie and cunningly framed sentences to blinde and intangle the simple or that you would shew your selfe another Aristotle by a certaine metaphisicall and crupticall method to bring men into a maze that they should rather wonder at your learning thē be able to vnderstand what you teach in your writinge Wee which stande for the defence of our English church highly commend R. H. bookes wee alleadge your opinions as well as wee can to stop the mouthes of foolish carpers Wee commend your books as very excellent and learnedly penned and not to be answered then they promptly aske your reasons and require of vs to shew by what arguments you maintaine those assertions then returne wee to your bookes wee seeke and beate our braynes but are hardely able by our meane capacitie to gather any thinge but as a man a farre of beholding a bryer tree all blowen ouer with his flowers with great desire approacheth neere vnto it and findeth himselfe deceaved so the delight of reading your booke is meruelous great but the fruit thereof howsoeuer it come to passe vnto vs that search and examine it is far vnlike the goodlie shew and appearance In the booke of that most learned and reuerend Father D. Withgift wee finde the question iudicially sett downe his aunswere to the matter in question sensible his reasons eyther from holy scripture from Fathers or new writers without all circumferences and crooked windings directly applied so as such poore men as wee be may beare away what hee saith and what hee intendeth but in your writing wee are mightely incombred wee walke as in a labyrinth and are suddenlie ouerwhelmed as in the deepe sea sometime it seemeth to vs that wee see great florishing of warlike and glittering weapons and to heare the lowde outcryes and noyce of them which pursue their enemies in battell thundring gunshott tossing of speares and ratling of harnesse yet cannot we perfectly perceaue any thinge almost rightly to touch the aduersarie pretended but rather as in our demandes before wee verely thinke doeth manifestly appeare most heauie stroakes poysoned pellettes and dangerous pushes of the pikes against the Ierusalem of God the holy Christian church of Englande whom you would seeme to defende Wee desire you therefore with all instancie that you would not denie vs three things First to shewe vnto vs what arguments you haue alleadged which are materiall and of waight which are not to bee found in the aunswere of that reuerend Father vnto Maister Carthwright and herein plainly to de clare which be your arguments or direct aunswers which are neither fine and close Ironies or blustring bitter scoffes begging of the question or peremptorie affirmations and how wee may knowe what is the state of the question and when you are in or out and what you holde in your conscience to bee the trueth in Gods sight howe great and large your fiue bookes would bee if you had vsed reasonable intelligible and logicall argumentes onely as other writers and disputers doe and had left out all needlesse wittie gloses and Rhetoricall shadowes in preambles discourses digressions amplifications and had kept your selfe out of the common iayle of sophisticall elenches and impertinent outleapes and had followed S. Peters prescript in a meeke reuerend and direct apollogie and defense proceeding from a good conscience Secondly that if you sett foorth your other bookes which are promised you would bee more playne and sensible and followe the vsuall language and stile of