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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	call_v	church_n	true_a	4,773	5	5.1844	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64702	The church-papist (so-called), his religion and tenets fully discovered in a serious dispute ... whereby the common ... arguments of pretended visibility, succession, universality, &c., of the Roman Church ... are briefly confuted : whereunto is added, a short discourse proving episcopacy to be of divine institution, kingly government of Gods setting up, and the religion of the Church of England, to be the best in the world / by one of the children of the late captivity, 1680.	Underwood, John, fl. 1680.	1680 (1680)	Wing U46; ESTC R7367	28,086	42

which is true many great men have turned Hereticks Judas chang'd from an Apostle to a Devil so 't is the easie for others to change from Shepherds into Wolves Nor can the Roman Prelates pretend they have only this veràm et sanam Doctrinam or claim a lawful succession of Pastors continually holding entire the Unity and the Eaith for they have not kept the Unity of the Church but have had more Schisms among them than any other Church above thirty acknowledged by their own Chronologer Onuphrius Even Popes themselves have many of them by confession of several Romish Authors who have written of their Lives been very vile erroneous Heretical c. So 't is clear Rome hath no lawful Succession by confession they have only a Succession of gross Superstitions and Errors for a bout a thousand years for which they can shew no Practice on Warrant from the Apostles You further say That our English Bishops had no Succession from Roman Catholick for immediately after Conscoration Stapleton Harding c. your own men told them to their faces they were no Bishops Ergo only the Roman Church have lawful Succession I see you are put to hard straits for proof that seeing the Fathers will not speak for you you are forced to be your own Testimony which with me is less than nothing for who will or can take an Adversary's bare objections for a sufficient confutation of a matter in question for by this your Argument and Rule of proof should I tell you that any of our Party say Stapleton Harding c. were no Scholars though indeed they were great Clarks and should I say they were damnable Hereticks and forsakers of the Truth as in truth they are you ought to admit it as a convincing Testimony else why do you obtrude your sayings for proof but let that pass You confess English Bishops had Consecration from the Roman and so enabled and qualified for the service of the Church If then the Roman had any lawful power to consecrate which I deny not I do not question but their Consecration is valid enough and hold good notwithstanding Stapleton and Hardings words to the contrary for such sayings do not unordain and so we have your Succession and Consecration to boot But whether ordinary Mission or Ordination be so absolutely necessary to the being of Truth as though Truth could nor be without it is with me a question seeing Christ encouraged the Faithful that did wonders in Christ's name and was not sent St. Mark 9.39 40. forbid him not he is on our part c. nor did I ever conceive a necessity lay on the English Church to receive Orders from Rome more than on the Roman to receive Orders from it seeing we were a Church Apostolick assoon yea were a Church before any settlement of a Church in Rome The Religion of Christ was received in Brittain tempore ut scimus summo Tiberii Caesaris in the latter time of Tiberius Caesar as saith St. Gildas de excid Brit. the same is acknowledged by your own man Baronius whereas St. Peter kept in Jury long after Tiberius his death And as Theodoret and Sophronimus Patriarchs of Jerusalem affirm the Apostle St. Paul first taught in Britain Also Aristobulus mentioned Romans 16. came to this Isle and discharged the Office of a Bishop as Dorotheus witnesseth and in his Synopsis also averreth Simon Zelotes Christum praedicavit in Britannia ubi crucifixus occisus et sepultus est The same also affirmeth Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 40. Simon Zelotes Evangelii Doctrinam ad occidentalem Oceanum Insulasque Britannicas perfert And Joseph of Arimathea An. Dom. 53. taught the Gospel in Britain as Baleus Flemingus and others affirm likewise Tertullian who lived An. Christi 200 saith Britanorum loca Romanis inapoessa Christo subdita sunt advers Judaeos cap. 7.8 After him Origin An. Christi 260. witnesseth Britanniam in Christianam consentire Religionem So it is evident and most clear that Apostles and Apostolick men delivered over the Faith to us and were the first Planters we had many Waterers after of this Plantation and a succession of Doctrine by confession on all sides St. Jerom also Anno 405. records Gallia Britanniá Africa c. unum Christum adorant unam observant Regulam veritatis In which time Bellarmine confesseth the Church was a true Apostolick Church Antiqua Ecclesia primis quingentis Annis vera Ecclesia fuit c. Bel. l. 4. de notab Eccl. cap. 9. and then viz. the first four hundred years we and Rome were of one joint Belief and Faith from one Fountain Christ Jesus and his Apostles and the same faith we had then the same we have now we hold to the old Foundation the Scripture Creed and ractice of the general Church in those times so are we a true Church and a right Member of the Catholick having lawful succession of Doctrine convey'd to us as before is proved from Apostles and Apostolick men whereby it 's evident we are no Novelists nor any of our Profession the Antiquity whereof our very Enemies do acknowledge Reinerus a Roman Inquisitor above three hundred years since speaking of the Professors at Lyons calling them Valdensae Leonistae c. in contempt saith they are more pernitious to the Church of Rome than all other Sects for three causes First being of longer continuance than any other the Sect enduring ever since the Apostles Secondly It is general creeping into all Lands Thirdly It hath a great shew of Godliness they live justly believe all things well concerning God and all the Articles contained in the Creed only they Blaspheme in hating the Church of Rome c. He calls us indeed a Sect as of old the Priests of the Jews called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarites Acts 24.5 but you see by Confession we had our Doctrine in former Ages and were a Church from the Beginning and are not estranged from the Church of Rome where she holds the Truth but she from us and the true Catholick Church of Christ nor do we depart from her as they charge us or are any further remote from her than she her self is from her primitive Purity antient Principles from Scripture Reason Charity Antiouity and from what she was in her best of times our present Church of England though often have been under clouds and heavy persecutions still retaining the primitive verity to this day So your second Argument is invalid in that you have not proved nor can prove that the Church of Rome hath this lawful Succession of uncorrupted Doctrine and Principles or that succession of Pastors is necessarily tied to one particular place for ever to make the being of the Catholick Church as though the universal Church of Christ could cease to be if Rome and her Prelates were extinct and turn'd to Ashes Your third Argument from pretended Privileges belonging to the Roman Church viz. 3. That Church only that have confuted and anathematized

Visibility is the only mark of the true Church you have not proved to be granted be Churches differing from the Roman therefore is a Principle of your own and a begging of the Question I deny it to be the only mark for a mark must be infallible and That mark which may possibly deceive and is common both to a True and a False Church and may as probably lead to the one as the other is no certain infallible mark to find the true Church But Visibility may deceive being common to both and may as readily lead to a False as a True Church Therefore Visibility no sure mark and unerring Rule to find the True Church The Major is undeniable bearing its own Proof Truth and Reason in it self The Minor is apparent in all Ages even from the beginning of the World to this day Go up into Paradise the Garden of Eden there was Truth and Falshood even as soon as God had laid his Church the Devil began to build a Chappel for in Genesis not long after Et Deus dixit And God said c. the Devil was busie to set up a false Worship and wrong Obedience and then comes Et Serpens dixit And the Serpent said which visibly and miserably deceived our first Parents The Church was with Moses in Egypt there were Magicians and mock Miracles Falshood ever followed the Truth or Truth found it where it went There were Calves in Dan and Bethel there were worshipers of Baal Error is almost as old in the world as Truth No sooner went the Apostles out to Preach but a false Doctrine appeared in Simon Magus and his Followers Acts 8.14 In one place or other Erroneous and false Churches have been always Visible to this day even when the true Church have been obscured by Persecutions for so it must be according to the saying of St. Paul 1 Cor. 11.19 Oportet esse Haereses Were the idolatrous People in the time of Elias Achas Manasses and others the True Church because they only were Visible to the World For where was Visibility of the True Church when the Prophet cried out and complained 1 Kings He only was left alone so a true Church may be though not visible for there were seven thousand true Worshippers which he knew not of Where was Visibility when the Shepherd was smitten and the Sheep scattered hid and concealed Zach. 13.7 Joh. 16.32 Where was Visibility of the True Church in the time of Dioclesian the Emperour when neither Church Book nor Men escaped Was she not as St. Joh. testifieth Revel 12.6 fled into a Desart where she should not be found for a space c. And St. Chrysostom in Math. 24. saith In the time of Abomination of Desolation viz. of wicked Heresie Nulla probatio potest Christianitatis c. No proof of Christianity can be made or refuge found for Christians to know the true Faith but only the Divine Scripture So the Church of Antichrist may be Visible and Flourishing when the true Church of Christ is in obscurity and hath no Lustre Therefore Visibility is not in all Ages and all times an infallible mark of the true Church but is a mark also of a false one and so a true Church hath been and may be though not Visible to Humane Eyes c. Your next Position is from Succession viz. 2. That Church that have lawfull Succession is the True Church But only the Roman have lawful Succession Ergo only the Roman Church is the True Church To prove the Major you twice instance St. Augustine but direct to no place where therefore I know not whether he speaks as you represent him or if he doth whether he denotes a Succession in Place of Persons or of Doctrine and you bring in Irenaeus to say Successione Confundimus omnes c. but there is no such saying in the manner you mention found in Irenaeus 't is only corruptly quoted by Bellarmine Bellar. li. 4. de notis Eccles ca. 8. Sect. 2. nor have I heard or found Irenaeus or any other Father make Local Personal Visible and Continued Succession a necessary Sign or Mark of the True Church in any one place as though a True Church could not be in any place without it yet the Faith was delivered over by Succession in some places or other to their time and is to our time and shall be till there be no time for a True Church may be hath been and is in places where there hath not been Continued Visible Personal Succession Were not Jerusalem Antioch c. and others in the Primitive times true Churches yet Succession of Bishops hath not continually succeeded in them to this day and later Churches are true likewise Constat omnem Doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis Matricibus Originalibus Fidei conspiret Veritati deputandam So saith Tertullian De praescript advers Haeret. c. 21. And in the same place Ecclesiae posteriores non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate Doctrinae The Succession Irenaeus stood upon was of the Churches then in Asia and of Smyrna where Polycarpus sat Bishop as that of Rome Testimonium his perhibent quae sunt in Asia Ecclesiae omnes qui usque adhuc successerunt Polycarpo Iren. l. 3. advers Haeret. ca. 3. And St. Hierom tells us Ecclesia non in parietibus consistit in Psal 133. So Succession in the Fathers Account is not tyed to Place or Person but to the verity of Doctrine as Tertullian de praescript c. 32. Ad hanc formam provocabantur ab illis Ecclesiis quae licet nullum ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis Authorem suum proferunt ut multo posteriores quae denique quotidie instituuntur tamen in eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro cansanguinitate Doctrinae shewing that modern Churches such as are daily instituted and set up agreeing and linking together in the same true Faith are no less to be esteemed Apostolical for their neerness and consanguinity of Doctrine and to that we have as good Succession as any Christian Church this day in the whole Catholick Body the Religion professed in the Church of England being nearest of any Church now in being to the Primitive Christian Church Churches that have Doctrine that is not allied in Blood to that of Christ and his Apostles have no lawful or good Succession for Consanguinitas Doctrinae is required Irenaeus speaks plain Illis Presbyteris obediendum est qui cum Episcopatus Successione Charissima acceperunt veritatis Iren. l. 4. ca. 43. We are to obey those Priests who with their Succession in the Office of Bishop have received the Pledge or Gift of Truth whereupon Stapleton Relic cont 1. q. 4. A. 2. Notab 1. is forced to confess successio nec locorum tantum est neo personarum sed etiam verae sanae Doctrinae And why it cannot be of Pastours he again tells us Notab 4. ibid. name Pastore Lups fleri potest

Succession Numerate Sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte as saith St. August In hoc ordine successionis nullus Donatista Episcopus invenitur And our English Bishops had no succession from Roman Catholick for immediately after their Consecration Stapleton Harding c. told them to their faces they were no Bishops Ergo only the Roman Church have lawful Succession The Third Argument from pretended peculiar Privileges belonging to the Roman Church viz. 3. That Church only that have confuted and anathematiz'd all Hereticks converted Nations deprived Schismatical Bishops restored Orthodox Bishops called Councils c. that is the True Church But only the Roman is such Ergo only the Roman is the True Church The Proof THe Major is plain because these Privileges belong to the Authority of the Mother Church which is Matrix Radix omnium Ecclesiarum The Minor is proved for In Ecclesia Romana semper viguit Apostolicae Cathedrae Principatus therefore in the Oriental Councils when some Bishops would not agree divers cryed out Romam ambulent Let them go to Rome Nam a Petro inquit August ipse Episcopatus tota Authoritas nominis hujus emersit and 't is manifest no Protestant Church ever confuted Hereticks converted Nations deprived Schismaticks restored Orthodox Bishops but slept Endimion's Sleep for above a thousand years or like a Didopper dived in the Apostles time and never rose again until Squire Luther that second Elias that fift Evangelist The Fourth Argument from Universality of the Roman Church viz. 4. That Church is only Catholick which is dispersed through all Nations But only the Roman is dispersed through all Nations Ergo the Roman Church only is the Catholick Church The Proof THe Major is proved for Universality is an evident mark of the Catholick Church Si vestra Ecclesia saith St. August sit Catholica ostendite per universam terram ramos suos copia ubertatis extendere for no Heresie can be Universal no Heretick can be Catholick Protestants are so far from Universality that 't is as hard a matter to find a Protestant in fifteen hundred as motum in vacuo The Minor is as evident that the Roman Church was dispersed through all Nations by St. Paul to the Romans 3.8 where he faith that the Roman Faith was Preached in all the World that is Peter's Faith and what Faith the Romans had then the very same they have at this present for the Roman Church is not to be new bottom'd neither to be reformed of new Calciners Fidei enim Regula una omnino est sola immobilis irreformabilis as Tertullian the Doctrine of Faith once delivered to the Apostles by the prime verity Jesus Christ and assisted by the Holy Ghost for ever cannot be altered and the Church being built upon a Rock need no repairing of new Masons Soliditas illius Petrae quae Apostolorum Principe est laudata perpetua est sicut Petra permanet quod in Christo Petrus credidit ita permanet quod PetrO Christus instituit Here St. Leo saith the Church is Perpetual and cannot fail so long as Christ is the Son of the Living God And although the Protestant Church be fallible yet the Roman is infallible therefore Vivat Fides Catholica Vivat Ecclesia Romana quae fuit tempore Apostolorum est eritque per secula sempiterna THE ANSWER SIR I Derive not my Faith from Luther or Calvin as Beginners of it yet do confess with St. Paul Acts 24.14 that aften the way which they call Heresie so worship I the Lord God of my Fathers I mean as those Fathers did whom Justin Martyr calls Patres Patrûm professing the Ancient Catholick Faith all the Articles of my Faith being grounded on Scripture and the constant belief of Fathers and Couneils in the Church of Christ the first four hundred years Antiqua Ecclesia primisquingentis Aunis vera Reclssia fuit Bell. lib. 4. de not Eccl. c. 9. The Opinions of any Posterior Fathers where they vary from the Doctrine of the First I think it unsafe to follow For St. Hierom teacheth me well Nec Parentum nec majorum Error sequendus est sed Authoritas Scripturarum Dei docentis imperium nam Judaei post Baalim abierunt quos didicerunt a Patribus In Jerem. ca. 9. We are not to take error by Tradition from our Fathers or Ancestors but the true sence of holy Scriptures is to be followed and the Power of God instructing us in them for the Jews went after Baal by the example of their Fathers As your Fathers did so do ye Acts 7.51 I am of the Apostles belief and I am sure they were no Papists rather Protestants protesting the Truth and sincerity of Faith against Error and Schism So we by receiving the true Sacraments which are called Visible Signs protesting the Faith protest against those which are corrupted and against all Doctrines contrary to Scripture and the Apostolick Faith c. and so in that sence you may call me Protestant Now to prove only the Roman Church to be the True Church you say That Church only that is Visible in all Ages is the True Church but only the Roman Church is Visible in all Ages Ergo only the Roman Church is the True Church And to prove the Major you instance the words of St. Mathew Dic Ecclesiae To which I answer that 't is not said Dic Romanae Ecclesiae Tell it to the Roman Church therefore makes no more for Rome than for Greece or any other place where the Church is hath been or shall be And to prove the Minor you only say 't is cleer by Church Histories Councils and Fathers that the Roman Church only is Visible but bring not one particular proof from any of them to make it evident and evince that the Church was no where else Visible for History also tells us that the East or Greek Church though often in great misery and persecution was and is a Church from the Apostles time So that Argument which is common to others you cannot appropriate only to the Roman seeing it makes as much for the Greek Church in whose Language the Oracles of the Son of Ged were written as for it The Greek Church was first honoured with the Original written Gospel and the Latin Church had it only by Franslation from it That there was and is a Church constant in all Ages though not apparently flourishing and visible at all times to all the world I not deny but that there is no Church where 't is not Splendid and Visible to all eyes you have not yet made any ways apparent Certainly the Ark of God was not less an Ark in being in Dagon's Tent and the Hands of the Philistines Persecution the fare of the Church Militant obscured the Churches Rays in many Nations and sometimes so totally Eclipsed her as she was not visible to Humane Eyes Besides your Position that