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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	brother_n	deep_a	good_a	15	3	2.0641	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00637	A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ.	Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name.	1584 (1584)	STC 10770; ESTC S101936	77,534	204

¶ A COVNTER-POYSON Modestly written for the time to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract would disgrace the holy Discipline of CHRIST Luke 19. vers 40. ¶ I tell you if those should holde their peace the stones woulde crye AT LONDON Printed by Robert Walde-graue The Authour to the Reader IT is sayde of Solomon who had no small experience in the course of al things that much reading is wearinesse vnto the flesh but it is most true euen in our owne experience that to deale with the vntamed and vntaught reason of man is a vanity vexation of spirit vnto those who loue the truth For what cunning shiftes and exquisite variety of subtleties haue they to decline the mighty strooke of the word of God And it is no maruaile if we poore dullardes be not only made blunt but almost worne awaye with encountring with such tough ware The onely comfort we haue is that when the diuell disputed yea continued disputing so long with the Son of God him self hee was at the length made to retire with those milde and yet most powrefull wordes The Lord rebuke thee Sathan Which most auncient example as it hath greatly sustayned me in this toyle of this tedious time wherein I haue had occasion to goe bare-foote through this quicke-set hedge of thornes which the aunswerer to the Abstract hath set in our way so it doth not a little grieue me that I am iealous ouer my selfe that I haue not followed in such measure as I ought that moderation which the sonne of God The prince of Angels kept when he encountred with the deuil notwithstanding I deale as I hope with a brother My comfort is that it shall be manifest that in steede of taking occasion where it was not giuen I haue swallowed downe that as sweet which is most loathsome and bitter I haue also stayd my course within the compasse of the first treatise and the daungerous appendix annexed to the same partly because I suppose he wil not abuse so much the Scripture as to wrest the defence of pluralities of Ciuill offices in Ministers of God his word of sole excommunication which is already handled in this treatise by the scripture and partly because the rest will for the most part pertaine properly to the worthye Lawyer who hath begun this controuersie and shall by the grace of God see a good end of the same The Lord bring vs all to be of one minde and hart in the truth A FAITHFVLL BROTHER to the Christian Reader THE FEAREFVL CONDItion in regard of our sinnes of this our age and in this our Noble Countrie may make thee good Christian reader and all who loue the peace of SION the flowrishing estate of this cōmonwealth vvith heauie soule and deepe sighes of heart to bevvaile the horrible wickednes of this land euen yet to this day increasing if thou doe but consider that the hard and stonie hearts being continually vvatered vvith the svveete and heauenly devv of Gods most fatherly admonitions forethreatnings from day to day dropping dovvne by his messingers rising earlye is rather hardened then any whit mollified or humbled So that neither the fearfull signes in heauen and other creatures as it were by the breach of nature weeping ouer vs nor the horrible howling and quaking of the earth trembling and fearing vnder vs hath as yet brought forth anye further sorrowe of our sinnes then that being amazed and astonished at the suddaines woondring at the straungenes and for a time while our heartes did beat lightly sorrowing at the fearfulnes thereof we made a shew as though we would haue turned to the Lord but alas we soone became like the children of Israell vvho beeing put in feare with the greate terrour which God shevved in pronouncing the Lawe in mount Syna did promise to heare obey Moses vvho being but fortie daies and fortie nights absent from them and for them vvith the Lord they fel avvay to their owne imaginations Since this hath the Lorde vvith straunge sicknesses at diuers times diuersly visited vs in our bodies yea our very hearts haue bene smitten vvith the fear of foraine practises yet vvho is it that hath rightly ackovvledged the hand of the Lorde Aboue all other thinges this is to be soberly vvaied with the equall ballaunce of an vpright conscience that euen novv on the one side the common enemy to the state and Church of God among vs hath very villanously and traiterously vovved himselfe to put out the happy light of this most peaceable kingdome euen by desperate and slauishe bloud-suckers allured and besotted vvith the fayre and favvning face of a man hayred like a VVoman of these Locustes the Iesuites who haue stinges in their tailes beeing like vnto Scorpions to take away the precious life of our moste gratious Queene ELIZABETH our most dear soueraigne the ioy and peace of all this Land the Lord for his Sonnes ●ake continue her blessed dayes among vs and cōfound al their horrible practizes on the other side like as it was in Hierusalem vvhen Titus besieged it vvhat little faith and true loue euen from the tankard-bearer to men of high degree he that seeth any thing must needes behold and tremble But O that I vvere able to povvre oute my very heart and that riuers of vvaters mighte flovv out of mine eyes that I might sufficiently bevvaile the desolation of Sion among vs yea I coulde vvishe that my life though it vvere by a thousand deaths might redeeme the breaches of the Church of God among vs. VVhose hart doth not bleede to thinke that in so peaceable daies so blessed a time vnder so Godly and religious a Princesse euen when the fire of our neighboures most rufull miseries doth flame about our eares yea and that the Lorde hath almoste drawne out his vvrathfull svvord against vs euery man follovveth the pride couetousnesse vvhoredome drunkennesse and lustes of his own heart and no man remembreth Ioseph The barres are filled vvith pleadinges and the streetes are full of the cries of the poore fulnes of meat and contempt is among vs and vvho considereth Yet if this our sin vvere only against men and not against God there migh be some hope But vvhen the mouth of the blasphemous svvearer is not tied vp the handes of the idolatrous generation of Atheiestes prophane persons be not chained VVhen the moste holye and precious vvorde of God is manifestlye contemned the ioyfull and heauenly tydings of saluation so negligently and vngratefully troden vnder foote the true and faithfull messengers pursued atained and diuers wayes afflicted then if the olde worlde for malitious imaginations Sodom and Gomorrha for pride fulnesse of meate and vnmercifulnesse If Ierusalē for abusing Gods prophets wilfulnes were wofully distroyed vvhat may wee poore careles people look for if we do not repent but as it is almost vniuersally feared speedy ruine vtter desolation O ye shepherds

woorke vvhich tendeth to no other end but that the truth being found we might al ioin togeather in godly peace an holy vnion to serue him ioifully together frō generation to generation The reasons which specially did cause this mater to be taken in hand are either in respect of the substaunce of seuerall points in question or of the time wherin they are brought in question For first considering that the question is not as the aunswerer would beare the world in hād as in publike sermons it is euery day vncharitably vpbraided about trifles things of no vvaight as of variable ceremonies matters of circumstances which yet are to be squared by the sacred Canons of holy Scripture but about matters of no small importance euen of the great and waighty cause of Christes kingdome by vvhat lavves and offices his heritage is to be gouerned protected that is of the whole Discipline of the Church of Christ whether it be to be ordered by the vncertayne and deceiueable waights of humane constitutions or by the infallible Oracles of Gods most holy testimonies And that the aunswerer doth very confidentlye challenge as thogh not only by vs but byal churches reformed in manye writinges verye well knowne he vvere not already aunsvvered that by the worde of God vve vvoulde prooue a certaine gouernement of the Church vnder the time of the Gospell and that this he doth very closlye and colourablie at his pleasure adding to and detracting from the question as in the treatise shall appeare and vvith smooth vvordes and artificial euasions though sometimes vvith more gaule then comelynes and more scoffing then substaunce labouring to cast a myst before the eyes of the Reader and to beare dovvn the cause with svvelling vvordes of vain ostentation And concerning the time seeing that novv by the meanes of the vnaduised stirre vvhich by the reuerende Fathers is made in this Church of England al the faythfull seruauntes of Christe Iesus are in some sort called to beare vvitnesse vnto the truth and that vvithout verye good grounde it vvere not meet that any reasonable thing shoulde be refused of such men as vve be not onely to satisfie the expectation of all men desirous to knovve the truth but also to discharge our dutie to our Lord and Master Iesus Christ and to her gracious maiesty and all her good subiectes vve coulde not keep the pen from paper but vvere as it were inforced to beare this necessary vvitnes to a truth not so much by the reason of man impugned and resisted as by manifest and plaine places of scripture to be approoued and confirmed and for the dayly profite of the Church most behoosefull of euery man to be rightly vnderstood and in euery Congregation vvith all reuerence and diligence to be practised and religiously obserued For what man indovved vvith the feare of God and a reuerent loue of his Prince continually beholding the diligent hand of the seditious papists to waxe stronger and stronger through the stopping of the mouths of the sincere ministers and so many I might say innumerable soules for whome Christe Iesus shed his moste precious bloude to remaine in miserable captiuity and bondage of blindnesse and ignoraunce the very chaine of darknesse and iniquity for lacke of teaching and instruction and these non-residents and blinde guides which in some sort make a pray of God his heritage to bee so cunningly vnder-propped and maintained and so many thinges of so euil nature in themselues so pernicious to the church of God so dangerous to the state of this commō wealth so offensiue and burdenous to all people of any conscience and knowledge to be so mightily backed and defended what man I say hearing and seeing the daily and pitiful complaints of the poore people for lack of good pastors and of the reioycings of vvicked euill men in the trouble of the faithfull Ministers to the great dishonour of almighty God and contempt of many most wholsome Lawes by her most excellent Maiesty set foorth and established can be so carelesse and vndutifull as not to applye him-selfe in some sort or other that these great enormities may be detected and remooued Accept therfore gentle reader the godly labours which were employed in setting foorth this little Treatise thinke it not straunge that it commeth foorth so soone or so sodenly but take it as a stay an help vnto thee till some more larger discourse shalbe aduētured wherin the holy scripture is made the onely iudge of this cōtrouersy so much as cōcerneth the reasons of the lavves of this land is nothing at al touched as wel because the purpose of this reply vvas to instruct the cōscience by the proper means thervnto ordayned of God as because the shortnes of time could not suffer any more the pen vvhich vvrote this is of an other profession vveigh vvell and examine the reasons here inserted vvith the iust and euen ballaunce of God his holy sanctuary and let thine eye be single in iudging and no doubt but thorovv God his grace though peraduenture the stile may be somevvhat harsh and euery point not so finely adorned with the flovvers of mans eloquence yet the plaine simple euidence of the truth euen in her nakednesse and proper beauty shal so shine and cast her bright beames into thy conscience that if thou reape not so much profite as vvere to be vvished at the least vvyse this cause may receiue more fauourable interpretation and be esteemed as a thing vvorthy of due consideration Thus hoping of the blessing of God tovvardes thee and of thy charitable receiuing of the labours vvhich were enterprised to do thee good I cease anye further to hold thine eyes from the vvorke it selfe moste humbly beseeching God euen the father of our Lord ●esus Christ to be mercifull vnto this land to giue vs speedy and vnfayned repentaunce to turne his plagues from vs to ouerturne and confound the diuilish and blouddy treacheries of all seditious popish and other traiterous vndermyners of the state to plant true and godly loue among vs and to set vp the kingdome of his sonne according to his vvorde to the prosperous continuance of the most honourable and peaceable estate of the Queenes highnes to the reioycing of all faithfull and true hearted subiectes and to the glorie of his moste holye name for euer Amen Faults escaped Page 32. line 12. for Nicodemia read Nicomedia pa. 43. lin 5. for would read should pa. 56. lin 6. for rotted read rotten pa. 80. l. 11. for from read after p. 91. l. 11. for by read of pa. 92. li. 1. after God read doth pa. 120. li. 7. for he read they pa. 105. li. 6. after vpon read vs. pa. 128 line 10. read exercise ceasing pa. 131. li. 20. for commit read commute pa. 133. li. 3. for railing read calling pa. 146. li. 1. for hast read his own heart pag. 157 li. 13. for trueth read fruite ❧ Of the certaine

to conuince any errour And page 3. For the issue ought to haue beene to this effect whether it be simplie vnlawfull that one shold be admitted to minister the Sacramentes which is not sufficiently inabled Orthotomein that is to deuide the Worde of God aright and is also Didacticos Kai elegticos able to teach the truth and conuince errours and to correct sinne to instruct to vertue and good life and to comfort the weake or else whether it be expedient that all the parishes in Englande either not able to susteine such a learned Minister or for the scarsitye of such so wel qualified not able to procure one shoulde be destitute of publique prayer and administration of Sacramentes tyll such a Preacher be procured vnto thē or no And the like page 14. where a little before he hath these wordes If he reply that the Bishop should not then haue made him Minister I reioyne that peraduenture he was none of his making it maye be also that he was fitte for the cure he was appoynted vnto though not so fitte for some other populous Congregation or troublesome people Lastly that if none should be assumed to the ministry but with those especiall indowmentes surely all the learned of all professions in England if they were in the ministery woulde scarce be able thus to supply one tēth part of the parishes Item page 25. Neither are such of them thogh they be no Preachers to bee accounted dumbe and silent who in their Churches do exhort dehort rebuke comfort and also in some degree instruct their parishioners as their ability serueth occasion is offered Which I know they may as profitablye doe as some who of as meane gyfes but of more audacity then they dare take vpon them to expound deuide the Scripture by preaching vppon some text vnto which they in their whole discourse do come iust as neere as Iarmans lippes are sayd to come togeather Page 34. Further if they haue ordayned some of mean ability it hath been in respect of their slender portions of liuing allotted out in moste places for the finding of Ministers which places otherwise should be destitute wholly whereby the people wold be in short tyme become as heathen Painims or be as sauage as the wilde Irish to the great daunger of their soules and hazard of this state Againe page 45. But he is angry also with their bare reading and very peremptorily assureth vs that they shall neuer be instrumentes of the holye Ghoste to woorke fayth in the hearers but he limiteth it with this word ordinarily which he seeketh to establishe by that of Sainct Paule And how shall they heare without a Preacher Truely as it must needes be confessed that the plaine resolution and vnfolding of the Worde in Scripture called Orthotomia the right cutting thereof and the grauing of the due and fitte allotment in season which is perfourmed by discreete and pithie preaching is an ordinarye and the moste excellent meanes to ingender fayth So is it a great errour in diuinitye to thinke that God neuer blesseth the reading or the hearing of his Worde read but extraordinarily for then why is it commaunded that the law of God shoulde be rehearsed continually to our children that we should talke of the commaundementes in oure houses c. That we should meditate therein daye and night that all the daye long our studie should be in his law that we shold search the scriptures Also why was Moses reade in the Synagogues euerye Sabboth day and they of Thessalonica commended for their reading of Scripture conferring it with that they heard shall we saye that so many thousands as in late tyme of persecution were conuerted from idolatry by reading of Scriptures and diuine treatizes obtayned not fayth by ordinarye meanes or that without especiall miracle and by extraordinary working none are saued in this Church of England where the Minister is no publique Preacher and is not the declaring and publishing the Worde in the Mother tongue wherein as Augustine sayeth in those thinges that are playnely set downe is sufficient for fayth and conuersation a kinde of declaration and preaching the Lordes will vnto vs. Page 70. Neither in vaine is preaching spoken off at the firste ordering both to put them in minde what ought to bee their principall indeuour and to giue vs to know that meere laye-men be not inabled to this office so is it not conuenient that a licence to preach be giuen to anye but to such as beeing in some function Ecclesiasticall haue addicted them-selues to serue the Church according to their abilities in all their functions incident to that calling And page 63. and the 4. iniunction addeth here-vnto That if he be lisenced herevnto he shal preach in his owne person at the least euerye quarter of a yeare one Sermon for the which ende the Ordinaries in most places doe requyre of such as be not fitte to be licensed to preach that they procure such dutye to be done by an other which is able to perfourme the same c. Where he asketh whether the meaning of the Parliament were to haue the Bishops Iudge the reading of Homilies to bee preaching it maye bee sayde that reading of Homilies in a strickt signification can not bee accounted preaching yet they serue to edifying and are a kinde of publishing the Lordes will euen as well as a Sermon beeing penned is and vttered foorth to the people Page 121. Truly I wish vnfaynedly that the gifts of Gods spirit were doubled and redoubled vppon all that function yea that all the Lordes people could prophesie Yet can I not without intollerable vnthankfulnes to God great touch of her Maiesties gratious care for the instructing of her people so debase al Ministers abilities which be no Preachers as to say they know not either for what they ought to praye or that the worde of God is the only food to the soul of man Or shal we say that none knoweth any thing nor is able to catechise or to exhort dehort in any resonable measure but he that is a Preacher publikly licēsed seeing it is notorious that euē in the reformed churches of Frāce according to which our men that haue their heades so full of Church-plots would seeme to haue squired out all their frame there be certaine Congregations tollerated where they haue no publike sermons but praiers and certaine exhortations It hath been the hope of al the godlye minded that after the cleare light had shined so gloriously both by zealous preaching and learned writings of many worthy men to the manifest discouery of the vnlawfulnesse of an vnpreaching Ministery so that not onely most of sound religion but also euen the very impugners of this haue after a sort been driuen to an open confession of the same that no man indued with any true care of religion or minding to defend a cause worthy of anye account would once haue aduentured eyther colourably

and their dutie and of the churches duetye to them Rom. 13. Lastly the Gouernours wee speake of in their gouerment are placed as farre vnder the Pastors and Teachers as they are vnder the Apostles and Prophetes which if they dare say it of y ● Magistrates they are them-selues become plaine Annabaptists and do cleane ouerthrow the most rightfull soueraigntie of Princes ouer all persons and causes as well Ciuill as Ecclesiasticall A fourth reason is seeing oure Sauiour Christ in setting downe the Ecclesiasticall Presbytery speaketh according to the Jewes for otherwise the Apostles could not haue vnderstood him when he sayde tell the congregation or Churche which was the title then giuen vnto the Ecclesiasticall Senate and his wordes of hauing as a Publican and Heathen doth manifestly prooue he ment to speak according to their custome It must needes be that hee did according to the places afore brought ordayne a Presbytery of Pastors Teachers and Elders like vnto theirs of Priestes Scribes or Teachers of the Law and their Elders which gouerned onely In y ● fift place y ● precept of S. James which willeth them to sende for the Elders of the Church when they be weak therby plainly declaring that y ● Church ought not onely to haue a Pastor and a Doctor whose cheefe attendance must be on reading exhortation and doctrine But also many who ought alwayes to bee ready at the instant calling of diuers and many at once that none in y ● necessary worke bee neglected it followeth thereby that beside them there ought to be such other elders as may admonish the vnruly comfort the weak minded patient towards all Lastly all those places which say Elders were ordayned Churche by Church that an accusation must not be taken against them vnder two witnesses and such like doe establish these for seeing the wordes are generall to both as haue bene prooued before and no circumstance doth restraine them nay the circumstances vphold y ● general because in the first place Lukes purpose is to declare howe the Apostles broughte the Churches to a perfect and full order of Church-gouernment and in the other the Apostle had spoken immediately before of both sorts Wherfore vnlesse they will ouerthrowe all certayne sense of these places and that notable rule of interpretation that the wordes and sense of places are not to be restrained but vpon repugnance of places or playn circumstaunces of Text they must here vnderstande both sortes of Elders And thus much out of the Scriptures nowe out of the Fathers IGNATIVS AD TRVLL There is no Churche which can stande without her Eldershippe or Councell Tertull. Apoll. Cap. 39. If there bee anye that hath committed such a fault that hee bee put away from the partaking of the Praiers of the Church and from all holy affayres or matters there bee presidents certain of the most approued auncientes and Elders Theophilact on the place of Mat. interpreteth tell the Church tell the Gouernours thereof Ambrose 1. Timoth. 5. Complayneth that the Teachers and Ministers of the Word suffered this to weare out of the Church or rather of pride whilste they onely would seeme to doe somwhat Nowe all knowe that the Elders which they called Sacerdotes Priestes were not worne out of vse therefore hee may meane this and this sheweth what the Fathers meant And CIPRIAN confirmeth that as manifestlye that it remayned in his time where he sayth Lib. 4. Epi. 22 whē either examining whether al things agreed to them which should be in those who were prepared for the Ecclesiasticall function We gaue it to Optatus we with the Elders Doctors and readers ordain him Teacher of those which heare Which sheweth there were Elders for Gouernment which were not occupied in any publike diuine seruice distinguished not onelye from the Preachers but Readers Ierom also saith The Christian Church also hath her Eldership Ier. 2. lib. in Isa Which when he meneth it of such as the Jewes had it is plain hee meaneth those which we doe as may appeare by his wordes of the Jewes Elders Ad Galas quest decim They chose saith he of the wisest of their company for gouernors which shoulde aswell admonish those that had any corporall pollution to abstaine from the assemblies as to reprooue the breakers of the Sabboth A reply to the variable collections following against the Discipline HItherto we haue had whatsoeuer force he coulde make against the seuerall pointes of Church-gouernment handled before Now because he thoght the stenche of the former dung was not strong ynough to ouercome the sweete sauour which the Worde casteth vppon the Discipline hee hath tumbled together as hee thinketh a great many diuersities and contrarieties drawn from the writinges of those which seeke the Church-discipline whereby he woulde faine fasten vppon it that it is not to bee yeelded vnto because the Authors are not At any accorde or resolution amongst themselues nor yet with other learned men Also vppon hie olde song that these matters are in the liberty of the Church it is a very nice and a dangerous scrupulosity rather then to vse that aright which hath beene once abused that a man shoulde goe aboute to deuise and to laye oute new plat-formes in Church-matters in which of necessitie such difficulties will daylye arise that cannot by anye reache of mans wit bee forecast and will breede not only a continuall toil but also infinite daungerous innonations both in the Church and common-wealth Concerning which slaunderous dealing of his I will first generally speake of it and then make aunswere to his seuerall collections adding vnto euery one of his open contradictions inconueniences of their side not only drawn from the diuersitie of mens iudgement which in the best thinges are through humane infirmity at oddes but such as shew the cheefe defendors to bee at warre with them selues in the points which they mayntayn with the holy doctrin which they must needs confesse Now may it please the Reader in the first place to consider what iniutye this man doth not onelye to the Discipline but also to our holy Religion in this manner of dealing For by this reasoning of his it shall come to passe that the Religion when it was first preached by the Apostles because it was ioyned with contrarieties and strifes as of those of the Circumcision with the rest and sometimes with bitternesse and difference betweene the Ministers whilste one woulde haue one that had forsaken the worke go with them another woulde not sometimes tumultes and disorders following the same it might well haue beene refused and east away seeing the Professors were at variance contended and many inconueniences in the reason of man followed their preaching By this meanes the whole religion which is in truth maintained of vs and of our brethren whom now they call Lutherans as an vncertain and vngrounded religion because of contrariety between vs in the

matter of the Sacrament of the vbiquiti other points may be reiected of y e papists and their reason must be held as good because they haue as learnedly and truly gathered our diuersities betweene our selues inconueniences following vppon our Doctrine as this man hath doone in the matter of Ecclesiasticall Discipline Next vnto this fowle iniury done vnto religion his iniury done vnto so many worthy lerned men which haue so well deserued of the Church of God nay his inuiry done vnto all the reformed Churches in setting them together by the eares in slaundering them to like of vphold and maintain such a gouernment as hath no witnesse of the Scriptures or ancient times thogh they main tayne it by both such as bringeth with it not onely a maze and labarinth vnto all common-weales but which is at flat ennemity with Princes ouerthroweth their gouernment in Ecclesiastical causes and by sudden alteration turneth euery thing vpsie-downe Which reproch though it be so apparaunt as his owne conscience smote him with the gylce of it so as he would fayne auoyd the shame of it by colourable protestation and that before God not to derogate from any tollerable order established in these externall matters yet he cannot chuse but charge them that they make Princes raunge with the rest of their Seniours and Church-gouernours and that they debar princes of that right of gouernment in matters and ouer persons Eeclesiastical which the word of God al the examples of godly kings of Iudae doe aford vnto vs. The falsehoode of which is not onely manyfest by this witnes of haste as good as a thousand agaynst him but also by the testimonye which so manye worthy wryters nay Princes and Magistrates in their practise and confessions haue giuen to the same Now when the Christian Reader hath considered of this iniurye donne vnto GOD and his Church to vnderstande also firste that these are but Rapsodies gathered at leasure boasted of cast in the teth of some long since such as had other-wyse been vttered ere this but that no market would serue so well this Secondly that although He do as Sanballet send vs in wryting worde that we woulde builde vp the wall of Ierusalem and make our selues kinges when these thinges come to passe and that we set vp Prophetes which may preach of vs at Ierusalem there is a King at Iuda euery Pastor will be Pope yea and aboue the Prince in his Presbytery Yet with good Nehemias we can truely aunswere There is none of these thinges done but thou dost inuent them in thine hart and that all this is but to cast a feare vnto vs for they say their handes shall be weake from this worke that they perfect it not And therefore that our remedy is seeing we vse no meanes but by supplication but by manyfestation of the truth and seeke for nothing but Discipline which by the booke of ordination we promise to further according to our power euē to pray with the sayde Neh. Confirme O God our hands The first contradiction interlased with a lie that they make him Antichrist which refuseth the Presbytery is y ● we vrge this as perpetual out of the place of Timothy which Caluin doth referre to his ministery which is no contradiction seeing if it be referred to his office yet it being a peece of Timothies office to procure that the thinges which he had learned of Paule shoulde be kept according to their nature and difference perpetually in the Church it sufficiently prooueth the matter in hande otherwise how Could he keepe it vntill the comming of Christ Like to that is the allegation out of the French discipline that those articles which were there contayned touching discipline are not so setled amongst vs but that the vnity he should say vtility of the church so requiring they may be chaunged which I saye is a meere cauill for they speak not nor meane not it of the substance of discipline contained in y ● word but their maner of setting it downe according to the circumstaunces of their time as is plaine by Their title which calleth it but the firste cast brought of the substance of it as it is contayned in the Scriptures of the Apostles Which substaunce they were not so mad to change though they iudged they might alter thē in many points of circūstances For these sily contradictions let him take these monstrous ones proceding from this y ● they wil not acknowledge the perfection of y ● scriptures cōcerning discipline One nūbring vp as a circumstance to come clothed or naked to the supper of the Lord saith of those circūstances None of these circumstances are commauded in the Scriptures nor can by necessary collectiō be granted yet he knoweth it doth necessarily appertaine to comelines The next is that the Abstractor saith the Ministers ought not to wrest any thing into the gouernment of the church without due authoritie from the magistrate which he would haue contrary to that of the admonition M. Cartwright that our life must not be deare as thogh we can not by suffering if need were for so the condition is put aforde that without doing any thing which hath not due authority from the Magistrate His mingling of our sentence with Brownes is but a malitious proceeding Seeing him-selfe testifieth after that wee doe more then mislyke his doinges and writinges in respect of such proceedinges Like to this is that he alleadgeth out of Iunius that if the Prince doe hinder the building of the Church the people may by force of armes resist him Which as it is not in the Page which he noteth nor in all his booke of Discipline so how malitious a slander it is brought vp vpon so worthy a seruaunt of God maye appeare by his whole treatise of the ciuill Magistrat Lib. 3. cap. 5. Where hauing shewed how the Magistrate cannot alter the substantiall poyntes of Discipline and handled that question to one obiecting What shall the Church doe if it be by the Magistrates authoritye commaundement threatning and violence compelled Hee aunsweareth If the Magistrate ordayne any thing contrarie to God his worde that the Ministers shoulde plainly and modestly declare with Paule that they can do nothing against but for the truth But if the thinges be not contrarye to the truth and necessitie that the Churches are bound rather patiently to beare it then to bring the holy ordinaunce of God their body and the common peace into daunger Concerning excommunication shall be spoken after The booke he nameth of obedience I haue not The other matter out of the book deiure Magistratum as not pertayning to vs I purpose not to meddle with especially considering he handleth it more like a Lawyer then otherwise But after he hath alleadged testimonies to prooue that Which none but Papistes and Annabaptistes will deny that it is traiterous to teach the people that they shoulde owe no