be so evident in it self why do not all Papists agree with you but rather oppose you 2. Your reason is most ridiculous 't is this The true Church was before any false one therefore succession is proper to the true Church If you had been speaking of antiquity your argument would have had some force in it but antiquity and succession are different things constituting two distinct notes of your Church Antiquity properly points at the beginning of Churches succession only at the continuation of them But I think your mind was upon antiquity for in your fifth Section you purposely handle it and your meaning here is this that false Churches cannot derive their succession to the first foundation thereof which is Christ for you say There must be a stop and bar betwixt whatsoever counterfeit Church and Christ c. To which I answer 1. Heretical Churches as such cannot derive their succession from Christ or the Apostles for then they should derive their Heresies also But 2. Those Churches that are now or have lately been Heretical may yet derive a personal succession from Christ in as much as at first they were planted and established in the truth by the Apostles but have since degenerated Thus it is with the Greek Churches and your Roman Church and probably was with the Arians who though they wanted doctrinal succession yet might have personal there being Bishops of note who maintained that Heresie In the former regard its true which you say that the Arian derivation climbeth no further then Arius there 's a great difference betwixt succession of Doctrines and persons though you seem to take no notice of it Lastly you return to the Protestant Church and whereas it s said There have been named in several ages the Albigenses the Apostolici Wickliff Hus. You Answer None of these were Protestants c. Rep. 1. Some of these were Protestants the Albigenses otherwise called Waldenses were Protestants Parsons confesseth that they devised and framed out of Scripture the whole platform of the Protestant Gospel Pars 3. Con. part 3. Hist of France Book 1. pag. 15. edit an 1595. Id. p. 67. A French Historian writes thus of them Who in spite of all the Potentates in Christendom sowed about the year 1100. and even since their Doctrine smally differing from the Protestants at this day For the further clearing of this take this extract of their confession of Faith which they delivered to Francis 1. Of France about the year 1540. and which they said was taught unto them ever since the year 1200. It contained the Articles of God the Father Creator of all things of the Son advâ—cate and Intercessor for mankind of the Holy Ghost Comforter and Teacher of the Truth of the Church which they said to be assembled of all the chosen having Jâ—sus Christ for Head of Ministers of the Maâ—istrate whom they confessed ordained of God to punish Malefactors and defend the good to whom it sufficeth not only to carry honor but also to pay Taxes and Imposts without acception of state whatsoever and that at the example of Christ who did likewise practice it Of Baptism which they maintained to be a visible and extenor sign represeâ—ting unto us the Regenerati n of the Spirit and Mortification of the Members Of the Lords Supper which they hold for a thanksgiving and commemora ion of the benefit received by Christ Of Marriage which they say was not forbidden to any by h w much it was Holy and ordained oâ— God Of good work wherâ—in they ought to imploy themselves continually â—f Mans tradition which they ought to shun protesting in Sums that the Rule of their Faith was the Old and New Testament and that they believed all which was contained in the Apostles Creed This positive Confession I have taken verbatim out of the French Historian to which I may add a Negative one out of Aeneas Silvius and others viz. they held that the Bishop of Rome was not above other Bishops That prayers for the dead and Purgatory were devised by the Priests for their own gain That the Images of God and Saints were to be defaced that confirmation and extream unction were no Sacraments That it is vain to pray to the Saints in Heaven since they cannot help us That auricular confession was a trifling thing That it was not meritorious to keep set Fasts of the Church and that such a set number of Canonical hours in praying was vain That Oyl and Chrism were not to be used in Baptism That the Church of Rome was not the Holy Church nor Spouse of Christ but Babylon the mother of Abominations If you desire to see more of them read Calverii Epitom Historian page 555. where you have a large Catalogue of them and now let the reader judge whether they were Protestants or no. But you object two things to prove that they were not Protestants 1. They hold not in all points with them For this you cite divers Authors But I answer 1. I confesse the Authors you mention do severally attribute divers errors to them but these witnesses agree not amongst themselves Guido Carmelita chargeth them with saying that Masse is to be said once only every year Aeneas Silvius contrarily saith that they hold that the Priest may consecrate at any time and minister to them that require it The same Guido saith they held that the words of consecration must be no other but the Pater noster seven times said over the bread but Aeneas Sylvius Antonius and Luxemburg say the contrary affirming that they thought it sufficient to speak the Sacramental words only Prateolus chargeth them with Manicheisme but Reinerus the French Historian and others free them from it 2. Their confessions shew that there is very small difference betwixt them and the Protestants 3. Though they should not hold in all points with Protestants yet they might be Protestants perfect complyance is not absolutely necessary to constitute a person a member of the Church Many of the members of the Church of Rome Corinth Galatia c. did not agree in all points with those Churches yet were members of them The French Papists go under the name of Catholiques yet agree not in all points with the Church of Rome for they deny the Pope to be above a general Council and that the Council of Trent was Oecumenical and Lawfull The books of many named Catholiques have been censured for unsound speeches and because they have not held in all points with your Churh yet are Catholiques still The Apostle supposeth that though those who are perfect do walk by the same rule yet some may be otherwise minded Phil. 3.15 which the Rhemists in their note on that place clearly grant 2. You object that they hold not in all points with themselves Answ 1. We are beholding to you for your good opinion of Protestants the argu-is this They that hold not in all points with themselves are not Protestants The Waldenses hold not
Pastors should be visible after they are dead for a visibility of them whilst they live would be to no purpose it not providing the the Church of means to defend aâ—d make good her right in case of opposition c. Answ 1. For men to be visible after death is something accidentall and withall strange unless to a popish ear or a necromancers eye but supposing charitably that you mean that their names should be visible I say 2. There is no necessity for evidencing a true Church that the names of all preceding Bishops and Pastors thereof should be mentioned It s sufficient that it be shewed that their Doctrine had its rise from Christ and that the Apostles professed and preached it Thus we shew the truth of our Church against your Antichristian Temple It s a truth subscribed to by all that the Doctrine which had its rise from Christ and was professed by the Apostles had professors of it in all ages and these must needs be true Pastors though without exact succession Your self formerly did confess that it is required of Protestants to deduce a succession from Christ and his Apostles not of men meerly sent but withall professing the Doctrine maintained in the Church of England though now forgetting what you had before said you affirm that if Bishops and Pastors be found succeeding each other without intermission its euident they are true and Catholique but this I have confuted before 3. Your reason with its comparisons annexed to it do not prove your assertion you say It not providing the Church of means to defend and make good her right in case of opposition the question of the Churches right is to be decided not unlike that of two great men laying claim to a principality by vertue of some pretended descent from a certain Prince Answ 1. It is unlike if by discent you mean a series of personal succession without interruption For the Churches right is not decided that way Scribes and Pharisees might have lineal descent from Aaron yet be theeves and robbers John 10.8 The Churches planted since the Apostles days could not have this lineal discent from Christ and his Apostles yea the Churches planted by the Apostles might have their Hiatus Yet both these later be true Churches of Christ You seem to grant pag. 56 that the Bishops and Pastors of some particular Churches cannot be named in a constant succession How then will you prove the truth of those Churches for it cannot be proved by this means you plead for 2. Supposing them like yet it s not the un-interruptednesse of succession for which they lay claim to the principality for it may have been in the hands of usurpers but discent together with the qualifications required in him who is to inherit which are found in one but not in the other thus it may be said of the Church whose discent from Christ together with her qualifications viz. investure with true Doctrine and right administration of Sacraments according to the will of Jesus Christ doth entitle her to the inheritance of truth 2. Or to a river whether it hath its off-spring from such an hill or mountain the surest way is to trace the river up to the head Answ 1. It may be probably known by other means than this viz. by compareing the water of the mountain with this in the river by the ascent of the water of the rivers c. 2. Tracing it is not always a sure way it may be mingled with other waters as have not their rise from that mountain it may run through a dead sea and then you may be at a losse whilst you seek an uninterrupted derivation of it from its head Yet 3. I grant that when the head is near and there is no mixture of impure and different waters your course is very good thus the fathers who lived within a few years after Christ and before heretiques came into Bishopricks and Pastoral Churches did make use of derivation of succession But the case is otherwise with us we living many hundreds of years after them and there having been heretical Bishops in the Church Lastly You say The truth of Doctrine is discernable much after the same manner if it be found to have no way varied but to have kept its own from Christ and the Apostles doubtless its Orthodox if not most certainly its new and false Answ 1. The former part is most true but not the later that Doctrine is true which though it have been varied in particular Churches yet at present is the same with the Apostles Doctrine 2. Granted is true what will become of your present Church and its Doctrine which you confesse is not the same with Christs and his Apostles Doctrine certainly it will follow that your new articles of communion in one Kinde prayer in an unknown tongue c. are new and false The rest of your answer is but a piece of railing rhetorick not worthy a reply SHAPE V. THe fift Shape is this That Church is true and Catholique which professeth the Apostles Doctrine clearly delivered in Scripture but the Protestant Church doth so therefore c. You answer 1. True Doctrine is no mark of a true Church it being often to be seen among schismaticks who for want of communion cannot make a true Church Reply 1. The profession of the Apostles Doctrine delivered in Scripture is a mark of the true Church as not agreeing to any other which I prove by these arguments drawn from your own assertions 1. True Doctrine is the Churches inseperable mate p. 40. But it could not be her inseperable mate if it could be seperated from her and brought into society with a schismatical Church 2. Christ hath entrusted his Church with trueth and ordained her keeper and preserver of it and what comes upon any other score than upon the Churches account and credit is to be reputed Apocryphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of belief p. 13. Therefore whatsoever Doctrines are out of the true Church are not truths For that which is beleeved by men out of the Church comes not upon the Churches account and therefore with you is Apocriphal 3. True Doctrine is Her the Churches Doctrine p. 51. Therefore cannot agree to others 4. There is no agreement betwixt the Temple of God and idols no concord with Christ and Belial You urge these words to prove that professors of error cannot be in the Church and it will as strongly prove that professors of truth cannot be out of the Church where then is your truth agreeing to a schismatical Church 5. Doctrine being in nature much like unto number the least addition or diminution altereth its kind and groundeth a new denomination p. 50. Now you cannot name any number of schismaticks that did not either adde to or diminish something of the Doctrine which the Apostles taught in Scripture hence 't is that both Augustine and Hierom tell us that there is no schisme which doth not
the minor For proof whereof you give us a definition and then apply it to your Church that is first you suit your definition to the Roman Church and then you bring your Roman Church to the definition The definition is The true Catholick Church is a society of men linked together in the profession of one Faith in the use o◠the same Sacrament and under the government of Bishops and Pastors lawfully sent that are able to shew their personall and doctrinall succession from Christ and his Apostles without the least interruption Answ 1. It might rationally be expected from you that when you bring a definition upon the truth whereof the validity of your argument depends you should have fetcht it from some Fathers or other approved Authors and not out of your own brain It s not suitable for the seller to make himself a measure and then confine the buyer thereunto or for a subject to frame a definition of Law and according to that proceed against his neighbour as a breaker of the Law If it could be thus what man could not lay a foundation for suits yea and carry away anothers right by his new definition I challenge you or any other to shew me this definition of the Catholick Church in any of the Ancients or later Fathers either Greek or Latine till which time I might justly defer an answe◠The former part I confess is warrantable but desinit in piscem mulier formosa Supernè But you seem to say you prove it in every part of it by Scripture I shall therefore first examine whether it be in Scripture and then whether it such as it is be a pliable to the Roman Church 1. Say you A societie of men and he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists others Pastors and Doctors A most necessary part of the definition you did well not to commit the poof of the Churches manhood because none denies it 2. Linked together under the government of Bishops and Pastors lawfully sent Eph. 4. Heb. 5. Rom. 10.4 this we grant 3. That are able to shew c. The mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of mountains and all Nations shall flow unto it Is 2. He hath placed his Tabernacle in the Sun Psal 118. Sir you are now gotten to Rome and the Scripture leaves you what sober man that reads these Texts would infer that the Bishops and Pastors of the Church are able to shew c. but it sticks in your teeth and therefore you stop at shew And truly I may well apply to you the words of the Psalmist Ps 39.6 with a little variation surely you walk in a vain shew surely you are disquieted in vain you heap up Scriptures and know not how to apply them The Scriptures you urge are not applicable to any thing you say Isa 2. Prove the amplitude of the Church under the Gospell by the access of the Gentiles by reason of whom also it shall be more glorious then formerly But what is this to the shewing of personall or doctrinall succession of the Churches Bishops Sure you do not understand by the Mountain of the House of the Lord onely the Bishops of the Church and by its being confirmed in the top of the mountains that all the Bishops of the Church shall be personally visible Herein you would surpass the very worst of doting Rabbins 2. In quoting Psal 118. you commit two errours one personall quoting Psal 118. for 19. The other vulgar reading after the Latine He hath placed his tabernacle in the Sun which is a most false reading as ingenious Papists confess Vatablus reads it thus Soli posuit tabernaculum in ipsis He hath placed a tabernacle in them i. e. the Heavens for the Sun that is as he notes Domicilium circumscripsit in coelis c. He hath made an house for it in the Heavens that there as in an high Theatre is might be better seen Lyranus tells us In Hebraeo c. In the Hebrew and in Hieroms translation according to the Hebrew it is thus He hath placed for them a tabernacle for the Sun Now do you think that either Vatablus Lyr◠Hierom or the Hebrews would infer that because the Sun is in the Heavens c. it s able to shew its own or Bishops personall succession I wonder you are not ashamed to reject the Hebrew and Hierom and produce a false translation to so little purpose as you do for suppose in both these Texts it were proved that the Church had a shew or were manifest yet it makes not for a successive visibilitie of an Hierarchicall Church Yea they clearly prove that the Church may be sometimes hid for the clouds may both make the mountains invisible and obscure the lustre of the Sun as common experience testifieth 3. Their Personall and Doctrinall succession He gave some Doctors and Pastors c. untill we all meet in the unitie of Faith Eph. 4 Indeed here is proved that there shall be Pastors in the Church till the end of the world God will still raise up some to preach his truth though there may be interruptions in particular Churches nor doth Matth. 28. prove a non interruption of succession of Bishops but only a non interruption of Christs presence But suppose Isa 2. Psal 19. Prove a visibilitie and Eph. 4. Prove a succession and Matth. 28. Prove a non interruption Yet to say therefore the Church must be able to shew a succession without interruption is fallacia compositionis And now let any man judge whether your definition be spirituall or no. 2. This definition is not a right definition according to the rules of Logick it s not adaequata definito not fitted to the Catholick Church For first it may agree to a particular Church as well as to the Catholick as is evident to any that examines it And secondly it doth not agree to the Catholick i. e. The universall Church For first Bishops and Pastors do not shew succession as Governours of the Catholick Church but as Bishops and Pastors in particular Churches The Popes shew their succession as Bishops of Rome The Patriarch of Constantinople shews his succession as Patriarch of that place thus the Bishops of England shew their succession in the Church of England He that shews a personall succession of government over the Catholique Church must produce not a Pstoral or Episcopal but Apostolical succession which Papists themselves lay no claim to 2. There are no such Bishops and Pastors as can shew a personal and doctrinal succession without the least interruption 3. This difinition comprehends not Popes and Bishops who are parts of it The Catholique Church as visible and distinct from particular Congregations is more truly defined by Lorichius in these words Sensus unitatis ecclesiae est c. The sence of the article of one Church is to believe that all the Congregations of the faithful are one Churche and that
p. 152. An. 1531. p. 214. that he was non parum doctus not meanly learned The Epitaph this same Author mentions to be written upon Oecolampadius shews him to be a man of great learning the rest of them were men of good parts and indued with a Spirit of zeal for Gods truth besides with those gifts the present necessity did much concurre those who had the key of order neither entring in themselves nor admitting others into it who sought the advancement of Christs Kingdom 2. By meditation of others who received authority from the prime-giver thus the Protestant Bishops and Pastors after the Apostles time received their power from the hands of those whom the Apostles had before invested therewith yea if we speak of the first Protestant Bishops and Pastors they had their authority immediately from the hands of the Apostles The Waldenses who had Bishops and Pastors amongst them are supposed by some of your side to have continued from the Apostles upon this account are judged more pernicious to you than any other Sect. But to omit them Rainer de vit morib Waldens apud Vsher de aeccles Christ success stat p. 151. The first and ancients Fathers of the Church were Protestants in their Doctrines You have been often challenged to shew that the Bishops and Pastors of the Church for many hundred years after Christ were not Protestants but Papists maintaining the articles of your Late Creed It were easy to shew that those Doctrines of Protestants that you anathematize as heresies were with the ancient Fathers received truth thus were communion under both kinds prayer in a known tongue c. by your own confessions It s therefore false that the Apostles were dead and gone long before these had any being So then we have power and authority from Christ by meditation of others succeeding the Apostles But against this I have said you object thus Object By this is implyed a continuation of succession in the Protestant Bishops and Pastors ever since Christ and the Apostles it is not conceiveable any other way how power could be transmitted from one hand to another as is averred Answ 1. Here is not implyed a continuation of succession c. if thereby you understand such succession as admits of no interruption and that in particular Churches The succession of Pastors in particular Churches may cease through the violence and tyranny of enemies yet the violence being over there may be a reestablishments of the Ministry and that in succession to the former though the means of the new establishment be only the peoples choice which in some cases is most valued 2ly What if there hath been a continuation of succession in the Protestant Bishops c You answer They must then be visible for as much as it was their parts to preach the Word of God and administer the Sacraments Rep. I grant it who ever denyed that the Pastors of the Church were visible We hold indeed that sometimes they may lie hid from their enemies but they are visible to their friends though they be not seen in the streets of Rome they are visible in the mountains and woods c. when the Church is in the wilderness her Pastors are not visible in Cities and Courts 2. But what if visible You answer If visible they may be produced they ought to be produced they may because that power is vain and fictitious that is not reducible to act Mat. 5. They ought because Bishops and Pastors in case of controversie are to give an account of their calling Luke 7. as well to settle the wavering as to bend and make supple the stifnesse of stubborn misbeleevers 1 Pet. 3. Rep. 1. They might be visible in their times yet now not producible You know what rigor hath been used against Protestant books you burnt Wicklif's works and have extinguished others You deal with us as Doctor Featly shews as if a theif should steal our purse and make away our money and then demand of us what is become of our money if we had any such summes of money in what bag and where those bags are 2. There are ofâ— our Authors who have produced Protestant Bishops and Pastors i. e. such as have maintained Protestant Doctrine in every age since the Apostles 3. Whereas you say They may because that power is vain and fictitious that is not reducible to act Math. 5. 1. Your reason is a piece of nonsence and having no relation to what it should prove the question is about the power of naming them not the actual naming them if we had granted the power and denyed the act your Say had made somewhat for you as when you say the Commandments may be kept but cannot name one that keeps them it makes against you 2. It s a tautology your word Reducible denotes power not act so that it s as if you had said that power to act is vain and fictitious that is not in power to act 3. Your quotation is impertinent so far as I know I have searched Math. 5. and I find not any thing that may make for your purpose and I 'm sure your axiom is not there Sure you mistook Matthew for Aristotle 4. It s false that there is a necessity of producing Protestant Bishops and Pastors we look more at succession of doctrine then persons and think this sufficient to denominate us the true Church for which we have Tertullian's judgment in that book you even now cite affirming That those Churches which are able to produce none of the Apostles or Apostolical men for their first planters are notwithstanding Apostolical for consent of faith and consanguinity of doctrine When our Authors bring in Catalogues of Protestant Pastors it is to stop the mouths it may be of unreasonable men that demand them of us Your reason to prove this necessity is this Bishops and Pastors in case of controversie are to give an account of their calling For 1. It 's one thing for a Pastor to give an account of his calling and another thing to give an account of his predecessors If you were a Bishop in some City and were demanded of the lawfulness of your calling were the way to give them a beadrol of your predecessors in that City This would come short of giving satisfaction for they might be lawful Shepherds and you who succeed them no better than a ravening wolfe 2ly The Text Luke 7. proves nothing for you if you point at the account our Saviour gives of his calling to Johns Messengers v. 19 20. You shall find no naming or producing of his predecessors but of his Doctrine and works Go tell John saith he what ye have seen and heard So we when you demand how we prove our selves true Pastors send you to what you hear and see our Doctrines and works conformable to the Word of God the Law of Moses and Gospel of Christ 3ly Few that have a desire after truth and regard our Doctrine
will waver because of supposed want of succession and for stubborn mis-believers the proof of succession will not bend or make them supple they that will not believe Moses and the Prophets speaking in Scripture would not believe though one should rise from the dead Luke 16.31 But to what purpose bring you the Text 1 Pet. 3. there is nothing in it for succession in order to the bending of the minds of mis-believers unless you understand the wives being in subjection to their own husbands whereby they that obey not the Word may without the Word be won to be the wives proving their Episcopal succession But for the necessity of producing succession you urge testimonies and reasons which I shall now in order examine The testimonies are these viz. of Tertullian Bidding the Sectaries of his time let him see the beginning of their Church and unfold the order of their Bishops and Pastors Likewise Optatus lib. 2. Contr. Parmen The Origin of your chair shew ye that needs will challenge to your selves the Holy Church St. Augustine de vit credend ep contr Faust manich came not behind these in pressing the necessity of succession and derivation where he ingeniously acknowledgeth them to be of force to hold and keep him in the bosome of the Church There keepeth me said that great Saint in the Church the succession of Priests from the very sitting of St. Peter to whom our Lord after his resurrection committed the feeding of his sheep even oo this present Bishop Answ There is no necessity of producing succession for there may be true Apostolical Churches without personal locall succession as I shewed out of Tertullian and its confirmed by Azorius who gives these two only reasons why the Church is called Apostolical because it was propagated by the Apostles Azor. inst moral p. 2. l. 5. c. 21. 9. 4. and holds their faith and doctrine the former reason points out the primitive this latter succeeding Churches though without personall succession 2. There may be succession where there is no true Church as I shall shew hearafter 3. If the Fathers do demand succession of Bishops or Pastors it s in order to Doctrine which they account the main yea the foundation of the other thus doth Tertullian in the words I quoted and Gregory Nazianzen who saith that the succession of faith is the true succession for those that professe the same Doctrine of faith are partakers of the same Throne Naz. Orat. de Laud Athanas So Tertullian and Optatus the one requiring from Sectaries the beginning of their Churh the other the Origin of their Chair both which phrases refer to their agreement with the Apostles not to personal succession Fathers urged succession of Doctrine as necessary but not the succession of persons 2. It s of such as being an inconsiderable party yet excluded all others from being of the Church of God but themselves such were the Valentinians opposed by Tertullian and those whom Optatus speaks of Thus we might demand of the Romanists and say The Origin of your Church shew ye that needs will challenge to your selves the Holy Church When did you begin to be such When had your Pope his universal power as Emperor of the World c. Or 3. It s of some Churches not of all viz. 1. Of such as had begun with the Apostles not others which began long after and therefore could not shew such succession 2. Of such as were in their times not of after ages their demands extend not to us Present Churches are not so able to shew succession as those were in whose times heretical Bishops had no place in the Church as Austin shews for having reckoned up the Roman Bishops from Linus to Anastatius living then Ep. 165. he concludes that in the rank of this succession there was not one Bishop found that was a Donatist and also whilst there was a short space betwixt the Apostles and them the latest of them living within four hundred years after Christ in which time there were no expurgatory indices no â—â—opping of their mouths who wrote the truth The Fathers of the first centuries were few and not subject to Popish purgations whereas the case is now otherwise we are not much short of the 1700 years from Christ our Authors that might shew our succession abused by you Your argument therefore is not good succession must now be demanded and produced for so it was in the time of Augustine Optatus Tertullian 1300 years ago 4. They rather demand the Origin and beginnning of Churches than succession of Bishops leaving more to antiquity than to succession 2. You argue for the necessity of succession thus Derivation of succession is so proper to the true Church that it can not agree to any false as St Hierom in Micam 1. observeth assuring heretiques to have no such riches as come to men by plain inheritance from their Fathers Answ This is most untrue Bellarmine dare not affirm it that its necessarily inferd that where there is succession there is the Church to whom Mr. Hart consents Hart. confer c. 7. div 9. saying Indeed succession of Bishops in plaâ—e is no good argument unlesse it be joyned with succession of Doctrine The reason is this derivation of succession may agree to a false Church ex gr to the Church of Constantinople who reckon from Andrew the Apostle to the Bishop that sitteth now which Church notwithstanding you account unsound Stapleton pronounceth of the Greek Churches in general that they can shew a personal succession from the very Apostles yet you account them not true Churches for they are not under your Roman Pope but against him 2. Your testimony of Hierom makes nothing for you For 1. It grants that hereticks may have fathers whose children they are and what is this but succession 2. That which it denies is that they have such riches as come by spiritual inheritance i. e. divine and wholsome truth the riches of the Apostles successors It s a simple conceit to imagine that succession is the riches that men have by inheritance from their fathers their inheriting of their fathers riches is not succession but succession is the cause of their inheriting they are but poor children that have only this that they can tell you they proceed from their fathers and succeed them Such children are your Popes they can tell you who was their father grandfather and great-grrandfather and this is their riches much good may they do them Whilst Protestant Pastors have true doctrine the true riches of the Apostles To this Testimony of Hierom you add a reason to prove that derivation of succession is proper to the true Church saying Its evident in it self by reason the true Church was planted and established before any false began therefore must need be a non plus ultra a stop and bar betwixt whatsoever counterfeit Church and Christ to keep off the like continuation of succession Answ 1. If it
modest Bishops the weapons wherewith he was assaulted were meek exhortations perswasions entreaties not bulls curses racks tortures that holy age knew no such Ecclesiastical censures as Luther and his followers were acquainted with The French Historian gives this account of Protestants persecutions page 38. The Doctrine of Luther seemed to encrease by the greatnesse of persecutions which might be seen by the hot persecutions in the year 1534. for searches and informations were no sooner made of the prisoners but they were as speedily burnt quick tyed to a stake after swinged into the aire were let fall into the fire and so by a pullise pul'd up and down untill a man might see them all roasted and scorched by a small fire without complaining not able to speak by reason that they had taken out their tongue and gagged them 2. Arius did not set himself against the vices of an usurping lordly power which might have procured him hatred and revengefull opposition but Luther did whose two vices as Erasmus told Fredrick were that he touched the bellies of the Monks and the Crown of the Pope 3. Arius his heresy was not constantly maintained and stuck to Arius recanted and subscribed the Nicen Creed as did others his followers but Luther's Doctrine was constantly maintained by himself and followers without any recantation or counterfeit compliance 4. Arius his heresie did not seem crosse to reason but rather conformable but Luther's did crosse carnal reason the ground of Popish heresies In these regards Luther might more truly becompared with the Apostles than Arius And indeed his Doctrine though you are pleased to slander it as being acceptable and pleasing to the depravednesse of Nature and so contrary to the Apostles Doctrine is the very same for the substance of it that the Apostles taught being no way contrary to mortification of wills religious fasting chastity and the like And therefore it was not itching after novelties and pronnesse to libertinage that drew many after him but a desire of reformation both of Doctrine and Discipline which were exceeding corrupt in the Romish Church whereof very many were sensible and under which they groaned waiting for freedom and this is that which a great Papist saith Neither did Luther in this age come forth alone Alphons de Castro ado haeres epist nuncup but accompanied with a great troop as with a guard waiting for him as for their Captain and Leader who seemed to have expected him before he came and upon his coming did cleave unto him SHAPE III. PRotestants received their mission from Catholique Bishops in Queen Elizabeths daies and since You answer Ans If some did which is to be proved nay the contrary seems to be proved by Doctor Champney it is evident the greater part did not and what a Church must that companie make of which most are judged fit to preach the Word of God and administer the Sacraments without Authoritie Repl. 1. We had Protestant Bishops in England before Queen Elizabeths days eminent oppugners of Popish heresies then in the time of Queen Mary whom notwithstanding your fiery rage God preserved making them to survive her bloody raign by these were others afterways ordained as Bishop Parker who was consecrated by the imposition of hands of Bishop Barloe Bishop Coverdale Bishop Scory and two suffragans So that I know no Protestant that needs to use the shape you impose upon us nor do I think any doth but you set up moments and then shoot at them which is a very learned and ingenious prank But 2. Supposing it our Shape I say to your answer 1. Divers Popish Catholiques in Queen Maries days were Protestants in Queen Elizabeths and these might have an hand in Ordinations afterwards 2. Though the greater part of our Pastors received not Mission from Popeish Bishops yet they might have authority You beg the question when you tell us that they are not ordained by Popeish Bishops have no authority We had lawful Bishops Pastors in England before your Pope or any of his gowned Factors knew England But you answer 2ly Admit the calling of Protestant Bishops and Pastors were right in all of them it would not follow that the Protestant Church is true so long as she advanceth Protestantism contrary to the meaning of the Catholique Bishops who never impowâ—red any but in relation to the setting up and upholding of Catholique Religion Rep. 1. If you admit this it will follow according to your principles that there is personal succession and consequently a true Church inasmuch as derivati n of succession is so proper to the true Church that it cannot agree to any false as St. Hierom in Nucam 1. Observeth Sir you remember the words they are your own page 41. but oportet mendacem esse memorem 2. True Religion is not to be measured by mens meaning but by the Word of God So then if according to Gods Word protestantism be the true Religion it s no great matter what your Catholiques Bishops meaning be 3. Catholique Bishops ought to ordain men in order to the setting forth of the unsearchable riches of Christ Eph. 3.8 To preach the Gospel Col. 1.25 Mark 16.15 This is contained in the Scriptures If your Bishops ordain men to preach any thing else they are abusers of their power their ordination is impure and unlawfull and so far to be frustrated Thus our Protestant Bishops and Pastors that have been ordained by you retain that which is pure viz. power to preach the word and administer the Sacraments but reject that which is evil in your ordinations we retain the power which is good and from God but reject those circumstances of yours which accompany the conveiance of it and are evil 2ly You say Communion with the true Church being as necessary a requisite to the makeing up of a true Church as union of parts to the compleating of a natural body what colour for truth in the Protestant Church that is at variance with the Catholique of whom she glorieth to have her power and which she confesseth to be a true Church Repl. 1. I grant that communion with the true Church is necessary but your inference hereupon is vain For 1. We deny that the Popish Church is the Catholique Church You appropriate that name to your selves but who gives it you Indeed the Roman Church in her purity before shee was infected with the Leeven of Popery was a Catholique Church Euseb eccl Hist l. 4. c. 15. l. 10. c. 7. Socr. schol l. 2. c. 2. but so were other Churches called as well as shee with whom you hold no communion now nor they with you as the Church of Smyrna Alexandria Carthage 2. It s not necessary to the constitution of a true Church to have communion with you The Eastern Churches were as much at variance with you as Protestants are yet they were tâ—ue Churches The Affrican Bishops did oppose divers of your Popes one after another telling them they should
hid and conceal their opinions and whilst the Church doth what she can to cast them out of her These would be a plea for your Church if the supposition were true But you urge further thus Protestants Bishops and Pastors if mingled with Catholiques did neither beleeve nor profess their Doctrine but only concealed and covered their own for fear of the formidable rigour of Catholiques and such could neither be true nor make a saving Church Not true because the mission of true Bishops and Pastors being founded upon persecution and suffering Mat. 10. Luk. 11. it is proper to them to fear no Colours nor make up a saving Church by reason profession of faith is necessary to Salvation Rom. 10. Mat. 10. Repl. 1. It must not be granted that Protestant Pastors did meerly conceal and cover their own Faith and Doctrine there was much crying out against errors and disorders in the Popes Church by many though not without sufferings Gersom for speaking freely against the disorders of the Roman Church was deprived of his goods and dignities by the Pope and expulsed the University by the Sorbonists Laurentius valla was exiled by the Pope John of Vesalia a preacher at Worms was sharply handled by the inquisitors for opposing indulgences auricular confession Pilgrimages Merit c. Berengerius openly declared against Transubstantiation for which he was not well handled Read our Martirologies and it will evidently appear that Protestants did not only not conceal their own Doctrines but opposed yours 2. It s not simply unlawful nor altogether unsuitable to the true saving members of the Church to conceal or hide the truth Confession is a duty but the precept binds not ad semper there are some cases wherein it s not necessary viz. 1. When we are not brought before authority to be examined about our Faith but if we be brought before them our Sauiours precept Mat. 10 binds us to Confession 2. When by our profession there is no hopes of doing good or bringing any advantage to the truth Hos 4.4 Mat. 7.6 Thus Protestants might conceal the truth when they saw their Confession was not advantageous to the Truth or the Salvation of those with whom they were although when brought before authority they did still profess it and dye for it 3ly They might be lawful Pastors though they might conceal the truth from their enemies for a time else what think you of Peter who did more then conceal even deny his Religion Of Liberius who accepted of Arianism Certainly if these were not true Bishops your Chain of Succession will be a broken piece Your Priests in England at this day hide their persons and with them the open confession of their supposed Truth they preach not openly they administer not the Sacraments openly they exercise not their mortal Devils openly and that for fear of apprehension and punishment due to such Vagabonds and yet your ignoramusses depend upon their Benediction as Spiritual Fathers 4ly Your reason is divers ways peccant 1. It s improper to say the Mission of true Bishops is founded upon persecutions and sufferingse 1. Are persecutions the Bases of pastoral Mission then if persecution cease the Bishops and Pastors cease to be true Bishops and Pastors the building cannot stand when the Foundation is fallen then your Popes or Cardinals c. are no true Bishops or Pastors for they live in great pomp and ease and suffer nothing unless that by their intemperance they get bodily diseases which is nothing to Truth Indeed since through your freedom from persecutions your Chalâ—ces were of gold your Priests have been but wooden Images 2. You mistake the cause of their concealing the Truth which was not a distracting and a distrustful fear which looks mainly at torments as you imagine but their fear was a sober fear 1. Lest the Church of God should be deprived of them by reason of their profession of truth at such a time when there was no visible advantage accruing to it 2. Lest they should incur the guilt of their own deaths by unreasonable profession See Mat. 7.6 Whence Lyranus infers Lyran. in Mat. 7.6 that the secrets of Faith are not to be revealed to obstinate unbeleevers because hereby may ensue the derision of the Catholique Faith and the murder of the Ministers Our Saviour gives liberty to his Disciples if they were persecuted in one City to fly to another Mat. 10.23 Yet bids them not fear Ver. 26. Clemens Alexandrinus sets this forth very well speaking of flying in time of persecution Swadet fugere c. He perswades us to flee not as if it were evil to suffer persecution nor that we should fear death but he would not have us authors or abettors of evil either to our selves or him that persecutes or him that kills us for he warns us that we be cautelous but he that obeys not is audacious and rash and unadvisedly casts himself upon manifest dangers now if he that slays a Man of God sins against God he also is guilty of this murder who doth not avoid persecution but through audacity offers himself to be apprehended for in as much as in him lies he helps on the wickedness of the persecutor Otherwise our Protestant Bishops and Pastors have as couragiously professed the truth and for it undergone with patience and constancy as great torments from Popeish hands as ever any in any age of the world did So that were you not blinded with rage against Protestants you could not but blush to charge them with fearfulness of professing the truth For a conclusion of this I desire you look home to your English Priests those Hedghogs whose appearance is mainly in the night and in darkness who are so far from a voluntary and open profession of their faith that I do not know of any one that ever suffered upon this account viz. the open and publike profession of his faith though they pretend themselves guarded with power of miracles which might make them more valiant 5. If your self were of that stout Spirit you charge us with the want of what needed you to write Paris for London or L. B. for your concealed name 5ly You conclude your Answer to this Shape with an exposition of the parables of the Wheat and Chaff Mat. 3. and of the Fishes Mat. 13. to which you say The comparisons are ment of private men for matter of manners and not of any mixture of true and false doctrine Orthodoxal and Heretical Bishops and Pastors tâ—gether Rep. 1. It s most certain that these comparisons do set forth the mixture which is in the visible Church which your self even now contradicted Yea 2. These mixtures extends to mixtures of Doctrine and Teachers as well as of private Christians in manners the ordinary gloss understands Mat. 13.25 Of the mixture of Heretiques with the Elect. Augustin also by Cockle doth understand Heretiques who in this world are mingled with the Orthodox his words are ful against you Aug. Ap.
invent different Doctrines and new heresies Seperation from a Church cannot but suppose a different judgment in them that seperate The Donatists whom Bellarmine brings in to prove your argument go under the name of heretiques and did indeed hold doctrines different from the Apostles Doctrines To these arguments grounded on your assertions I will adde two more 1. Papists themselves urge consent of Doctrine with the Doctrine of the Apostles and ancient Church a note of the true Church this is Bellarmine's sixt note but it seemes Papists may make that a note of the true Church which Protestants may not 2. The Doctrine say some of you in answer to us is the form of the true Church therefore In inferre it cannot agree to any false one the form being intrinsecall and proper to that which it doth inform not common to others as Rationality cannot be predicated of beasts so neither can Profession of the true Apostolicall Doctrine agree to a fals and unsound Church according to your judgements But you urge two things viz. 1. Doctrine is as divers as there are divers seeming Churches and so not affording any determinate notion draweth in opposition of a mark of truth Answ 1. The question is not whether doctrine indefinitely be a mark of truth as you propound it but whether true Doctrine that is the doctrine of the Apostles clearly declaclared in the Scriptures and professed by Christians be a mark of the true Church we affirm it is 2. Though Doctrine in generall be divers yet true Apostolicall Doctrine is not divers but one and the same as there is one Lord one Spirit one Church so is there one faith which the Scripture reveals unto us 2. Doctrine supposeth Bishops and Pastors as the means whereby it is conveyed to us therefore it importeth as much to name Bishops and Pastors before may be given to mention Doctrine as it is necessary passing from one extreem to another to touch first the middle Answ 1. But that your memory is weak you might remember that we have been mentioning Bishops and Pastors and that before we mentioned Doctrine What else is the subject of the four precedent shapes 2. If you were acquainted with our judgement you might find that when we say True Doctrine is a mark of the true Church we explain our selves to mean the preaching of true Doctrine and this doth suppose Pastors and Teachers 3. Truth of Doctrine is a more proper note of the Church and more necessary than Bishops and Pastors That Doctrine which is consonant to the Apostles Doctrine is alwayes true but Pastors that succede them are not alwayes true Pastors but sometimes Wolves and therefore if you had not misled us we would first have begun with Doctrine as the more worthy 2. You answer It is no less untrue that Protestants maintain the Apostles Doctrine delivered in Scriptures they professing a Doctrine clean contrarie and opposite to that which in them is in plain and formall tearms expressed Rep. Prove this and you carry the victory but I know you cannot do it your instances are insufficient some of them being not in Scripture others not the Apostles Doctrine which you were to have proved not by consequence but expresly in plain and formall tearms Lastly some Texts are brought in against us with which we fully joyn But I will particularly examine your Instances 1 Inst Traditions 2 Thess 2. Hold the traditions whether it be by word or Epistle Answ 1. It s most evident that the Apostle by Tradition understands whatsoever he had delivered to the Thessalonians either by preaching or writings Tradition being then of a larger talent than now it is and it is no less evident that what the Apostle did preach was nothing but Scripture Act. 26.20.22 Especially see Act. 17.1 2 3 13. where you finde what Paul preached at Thessalonica even nothing but the Word of God contained in the Scriptures Annot. on Deutr. 4.2 Your Dowaists say unwritten traditions are contained implied included in the Scriptures such the Apostle preached 2. True and Apostolick traditions we willingly imbrace yea we account them worthy of Anathema who do not receive them That which Clemnitius saith is the judgement of Protestants Apostoli multa tradiderunt unâ voce c. The Apostles delivered many things by word of mouth which their immediate successours received from them Exam. Concil trident p. 1. d. trad p. 68. and delivered to their Disciples but all these as Irenaeus saith were agreeable to Scripture and we reject none of them but whatsoever are agreeable to Scripture we receive and reverence So another saith if Papists will prove their Traditions by the ancient and Apostolick Church and the universall Church since even till our time we receive them and this is Apostolicall Tradition according to Hierom. for conclusion I appeal to Medina Medri l. 6. de sacr hom Continent c. 106. whether we or not rather Papists be guilty of not holding Apostolicall Traditions of 84. Canons saith he gathered together by Clemens and the Disciples of the Apostles the Latine Church scarce observeth 6. or 8. 2 Inst Reall presence Joh. 6.51.55 56 57. Luk 22.19 Matth. 26.28 Ans This is a Jesuitical slander for protestants do not deny the Reall presence nor is the Controversie between the Papists and us about it Rivel sum Contr. Tan. 1. Tract 3. q. 18. Inst we both hold that the body and blood of Christ is truly and really present in the Sacrament as learned Rivet observes this is also affirmed by Dr. White in his reply to Fisher who objecting that Protestants hold not a true or reall presence but onely a presence by imagination and conceit is answered in these words His most excellent Majestie and all his orthodoxall people believe reall presence T is true we hold not a gross i. e. as the same Author explains it When the thing signified and presented is according to the naturall substance thereof contained under the shapes of outward signes and together with them conveyed into the mouth stomack and bodily parts but we maintain a true and effectuall presence of the body and blood of Christ so as man receiving the externall signes by his naturall parts receiveth also the thing signified and presented by the action of his spirituall facultie to wit by an operative faith and this is most evident by that 6. of John 3. Inst Sacrifice from the rising of the Sun to the going down great is my name among the Gentiles and in every place there is sacrificing and there is offered to my Name a clean oblation Mal. 1. Answ 1. This Text is in none of the Apostles writings however being Scripture I answer 2. The sacrifice of the Mass is not in plain and formall tearms expressed in it It s your fals reading that brings in the word sacrificing Vatablus reads it Incensum offertur Incense is offered Pagnin and Arias Montanus speake to the same purpose 3. It may be more
and so many that they require strong memories to retain them 2. Law-makers are not able to comprehend all particular cases that may happen nor do they use to declare the meaning of the Law unless occasionally in some doubtfull cases for it is supposed that the Law when delivered is clear and manifest at least in the substantials of it 3. Judges do not alwayes look so far as to the Law-makers but to the practice of former Courts grounded upon right reason which is indeed the foundation of all just and good Lawes 2. You answer with respect to the Church The Church besides the Letter of Scripture which she reads assiduously with watching fasting and prayer for a right and happie understanding thereof and her own reasoning hath the help of a better and sure tradition and the assistance of the Holy Ghost Reply 1. What you mean by the Church here is hard to guess I fear your commendations will not well agree to Popes and the rest of your Ecclesiasticall Grandees their other imployments are so great and their affection to Scripture in comparison of humane Traditions so little and their devotedness to the Expositions of others so absolute that I cannot believe that they read Scripture assiduously with watching fasting Prayer and for your common people they must not take that pains about Scripture if they would so that you must either give us another definition of Church then you do page 73. or acknowledge that the Church doth not reade the Letter of Scripture assiduously with watching c. 2. What ever you speak of the Church may be as truely spoken of particular Christians they are capable of reading the Scriptures with the use of fasting watching Prayer they have reason whereby they can discern truth from errour they are also capable of using that which you call a better and surer Tradition and the assistance of the Spirit is as truely with them as with those you call Church And therefore I shall conclude with you leaving what I have said to the impartiall Reader desiring him to judge by it whether private Christians being rationall men yea men indued with Gods Spirit and thereby capable of understanding the Will of God in the Scriptures may not according to the ability given them and in their places seek for and deliver the sence of Scripture and whether this be any undervaluing of Gods Wisedome and Providence or do directly tend to absurd and extravagant impieties CHAP. XI Of the Roman Church BY the word ROMAN say you are not only comprised the inhabitants of that particular territory of Rome but likewise all Christians in the World that acknowledg the Bishop of Rome for their chief Pastor appointed by Christ to govern his flock Answ 1. It may well be doubted what acknowledgment you mean whether an acknowledgment de facto or de jure only If you mean by Roman Church are only comprised those who do actually acknowledg the Bishop of Rome for their chief Pastor you overthrow its universality It is not then Catholique for only a part of the West makes this acknowledgment The Eastern Church wholly and a great part of the Western do disclaim his supremacy and worship not the image of the beast nor receive his name in their foreheads Yea if you consult antiquity you shall find that there never was an actual acknowledgment of the Pope as chief Pastor by all Christian Churches There were other Patriarchs besides him who had their several distinct limits Azor. inst mor. p. 2. l. 3. c. 35. q. 5. viz. the Patriarchs of Constantinople Alexandria Antioch and Jerusalem Some of whose limits were no lesse then the Roman Patriarchs and whose power did extend to the constituting ordaining and confirming Bishops Archbishops and other Ecclesiastical officers as your Azorius testifies yea so independent was the power of each of them upon other that none of them was to meddle in anothers Patriarchat as its proved out of the Councill of Constantinople Can 2. by the learned Scultetus who also clearly explains the sixt Canon of the Councill of Nice to this purpose Scult Synlag medul Theol. Patr. p. 418. and answers the objections that Papists make against it All that Azorius gives to the Pope is this Inter Patriarchas c. Amongst the Patriarchs the Pope of Rome was chief to whom as Patriarch the Western Provinces and many Ilands in the mediterranian sea towards the West were subject Here is priority of Order but no supreamacy of power over the other Patriarches the Bishop of Rome had power over all the Cities and places about Rome as the Nicen Creed hath it but not over his fellow Patriarchs or their Cities c. His power was provincial not oecumenicall 2. If you mean that by Roman are comprised those who ought to acknowledg the Pope for their chief Pastor it will remain to be resolved who those are whether some particular part of the Christian World or the whole The former you cannot grant but overthrow universality and set Roman against Catholique which you are use to conjoyn in their predication of the Church The later we cannot admit till you can effect an impossibility in proving that in the language of the Ancients the Catholique Church was couched under the word Roman It is evident that a particular Church is sometimes by the Ancients dignified with a general and common attribute and are called Catholique Churches but I never read that the universal Church is couched under a particular appellation as a proper predicate thereof I say A proper predicate For I acknowledg that the Church in Scripture is called Sion and Jerusalem but these are only figurative expressions of it it is never called the Church of Sion or the Church of Jerusalem though it might rather be called so then the Church of Rome or the Roman Church the Scripture never takes notice of Rome when it speaks of the Catholique Church except as an enemy 2. Notwithstanding I shall suppose that you mean of them that actually submit to the Pope and thus you distinguish the Roman Church from all schismatical companies of Christians whether Protestants or others This company say you together with the said Bishop compose and make up the true Catholique Church Answer 1. The truth of this will appear by your arguments which you bring for the proof of it The arguments are these which I shall consider of in the order I finde them propounded 1. Argument That company of Christians compose and make up the true Catholique Church to which the definition of the true Catholique Church doth agree but the definition of the true Catholique Church doth agree to the above mentioned company therefore they compose and make up the true Catholique Church p. 72. 73. Answ If you speak of an exact and perfect definition wherein the definition is adequate to the thing defined agreeing fully to it and not to any thing else I subscribe to your major proposition but deny
in all points with themselves therefore are not Protestants The ground of your Major must needs be this Protestants hold in all points with themselves We grant and thankfully accept of your Major proposition together with its foundation and desire you would remember it when you come to tell us of our divisions 2. For your Minor 1. It s verified of their adversaries the Authors you mention as I have particularly shewed 2. There is reason to think they held at least in all main points with themselves 1. Because of the Testimony of Rainerus who saith they believe rightly concerning God and all other articles of the Creed 2. because they were men of good parts and very pious 3. Because your assertion of their dissent is only general When you shew the particulars I shall endeavour their vindication 2. You answer supposing them Protestants There was a great distance between them and the Apostles in which they could not be mentioned forasmuch as they were not begun or were quite extinct Answ 1. If you speak of them as Waldenses that is particular persons followers of Waldus I grant there was a distance betwixt them and the Apostles Thus if you consider of your present Pope it s as true that he is none of Peters successor there being a great distance between him and the Apostle Peter in which he could not be mentioned forasmuch as he was not then in being But 2. If you speak of them as to their profession of the reformed Religion not confining your speech to those particular persons but extending to all that professed the same Religion with them then there is no distance between them and the Apostles as I shall shew when I come to your fourth Shape 3. What you mean by their being quite extinct I know not sure you do not take them to be Jewish heretiques that were extinct before the Apostles and let me tell you that after their rise notwithstanding the fury of Papists which brought many miseries upon them they could never be extinct as the French Historian above mentioned shews But thus much for your first Shape SHAPE II. LUther descended from Catholiques Catholiques from the Apostles therefore Protestants had their Original from the Apostles they deriving themselves uninterruptedly from Luther To this you answer Answ Protestants derivation from Luther is frivolous and of no weight Luther wanting Episcopal authority without which all ordinations are null and frustrate by the confessions of the cheif Protestants themselves See Saravia Sutcliffe Bilson Andrewes White Mason Mountague Hall and others Rep. 1. Protestants derivation from Luther is of weight for any thing you do say against it It s most false that without Episcopal authority all ordinations are null and frustrate For 1. Ordination it self is not of absolute necessity for the constitution of a Pastor In some cases a man may preach the Word without it So did Origen whose practise was justified by divers Bishops Cameron fully asserts this Euseb Eccl. Hist l. 6. c. 20. Cam. Myroth in Eph. 4.11 that private men without formal ordination may teach and feed others with the Word of God 2. Supposing ordination to be of absolute necessity yet that it must be done by Episcopal authority as distinct from Presbyterial is not absolutely necessary so as that it should be null and frustrate without it nor are there any Protestants that I know of that affirms this with you not those who are named by you Sutcliffe one of them speaking of our first reformers hath these words Neither is it material that the first Preachers of the Gospel in these Countries were not Bishops Sutc. review of Kell Survey c. 1. p. 5. and so called as it was in England for suppose no Bishop would have renounced the heresies of Popery nor have taught sincerely should not inferior Ministers teach truth and Ordain other Teachers after them Furthermore they wanted nothing of true Bishops but the Name and Title Finally the right and imposition of hands by such as are called Bishops is not so necessary but that in a defection of Bishops of a Nation and in case of other extream necessity Ministers may lawfully be ordained by other Ministers And he gives divers reasons for it The rest of them are of the same judgment to whom we may add Dr. Prideaux and Dr. Field who shews that not only Protestants Prid. falac controv Theol. loc 4. sec 3. q. 2. Field of the Ch. book 3. c. 39. but Papists in former times were of opinion that in some cases and at some times Presbiters may give Orders and that their ordinations are of force and he further shews that your Suffragens who are but Presbiters do give Orders All judicious Protestants have honourable thoughts of the reformed Churches beyond Seas and of their Ministry though they want Episcopal ordination See a Book of Master Baxter But you bring us in objecting Luther received Episcopal power immediatly from God To which you answer Answ Such a power being extraordinary is always accompanied with that of Miracles as appeared in Moses Exod. 3. And the Apostles Act. 2 14. Luther never wrought Miracle Rep. For any thing I see this might have made another Shape for its independent on this you lead us as the Devil our Saviour into the Wildernesse to be tempted but as he evaded the Devils so we shall do your temptations We say then 1. A power received immediately from God is not always accompanied with that of Miracles The Prophets were caled immediately by God so was John the Baptist and probably Phillip the Deacon Act. 8.14 and the men of Cyprus and Cyrene Act. 11 Yet all of these were not invested with power of Miracles It was so with our Reformers they did not work Miracles nor as you say did pretend to that gift Yet had they sufficient testimonies of their calling as their true Evangelical Doctrine seconded with the holiness of their lives and the wonderfull success of their Preaching These did evidence their divine calling You object Luther's drawing so many after him maugre the Pope Emperor and other Potentates shews only a strange itching in men after novelties and pronenesse to libertinage Arius in a shorter space led away far more Answ 1. I speak not of his successe only or by it self but as accompanied with truth of Doctrine and an holy life and this doth evidence a lawfully called Pastor Thus it was not with Arius or any other heretiques who have been erroneous in their Doctrine and profane in their lives or else successes or if they have had successe they have but been short lived with it none of which can be affirmed of Luther or his adherents 2. I deny that Arius was more succesfull than Luther there is a great disproportion betwixt them herein For 1. Arius had not that opposition that Luther had Arius's opposers were no inquisitors nor cruel Emperors nor cursing Popes nor cut-throat Jesuites but a milde Emperour and some