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A72176 A dialogue bewteene a papist and Protestant applied to the capacity of the vnlearned. Made by G. Gifford, preacher in the towne of Maldon. Seene and allowed according to the order appointed. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1599 (1599) STC 11849.5; ESTC S125231 92,498 190

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it to abolish it and yet doth still breake forth as bright and pure as before So soone as Christ was borne persecution arose and the children were cruelly murthered Paul and the rest of the Apostles do not so soone go foorth to preach Matth. 2. but the false prophets are at their héeles Cease therfore ye wicked wretches to blaspheme Christ and his Gospell because such things follow they bée not the fruits of the Gospell nor they doe not spring out of it but they be the enemies thereof which do alwaies pursue it Make a reconciliation betwéene Christ and the diuell if yée will haue the Gospell go quietly Now let a wise man way this reason the word of God which is the word of saluation of life of grace our light our shield the foode of our soules can not be set forth but there follow troubles and errors therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne and not to let the people haue any sight thereof All the world may see that ye haue conspired with the diuell are become instruments to fulfill his desire for he couereth by those euils to banish the trueth and to holde men in blindnes and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of and so to bring all to hell and you performe his will in crying out against the sacred Scriptures and seeking to burie them Pa. Nay you haue consulted with the diuell like vnnaturall children to seeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church and to dishonour the vicar of Christ Pro. We bring all our consultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and maintaining of our holy mother the true Catholike Church and spouse of Christ against the filthie whore of Babylon and against Antichrist the great vicar of hell Pa. I may say the like against your side and so we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie and part as wise as we began Pro. I say nothing against yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly shew You haue no colour to say the like against vs sauing that your shameles faces haue made ye bolde to speake all kinde of lyes Pa. Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures Where doe the Scriptures tell ye that the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist You can make the Scriptures serue for your turne in any matter whatsoeuer Pro. Wée brag no more of the Scriptures then that which is manifestlie prooued by them we make them serue none other turne then the Lorde hath appoynted them for The Scriptures doe not in flat speeches say that the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist yet neuerthelesse they set a brand vpon his forehead and describe him in such sort that euery man which hath eyes may easily know him and as perfectly know him to be Antichrist as a man may know an egge to be an egge Pa. I haue read the Scriptures and know what they speake concerning Antichrist and yet could neuer finde that brand which you speake of nor such a description as should paint out the Pope to be Antichrist You are marueilous fellowes you can make somewhat of nothing you are so cunning that ye can draw water out of a flint Pro. You haue read the Scriptures and so haue your fellowes euen all the Popish shauelings and ye know they speake of Antichrist whom you beléeue shal come you cannot find that brand or marke or such a description of Antichrist as should belong to the Pope and that causeth ye to pronounce that wee make somewhat of nothing c. because it is not like that so many great Cardinals Bishops Abbots Monkes and Friers should reade and reade againe in the Scriptures and not sée the Pope to be Antichrist if he be so marked that he may easily bee knowne This may seeme strange but I tell yée it is no marueile for yée are all blinde as béetles The Scribes the Pharisies the Sadduces and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moses the Prophets and studied them deuoutly looked for the Messias which was promised and described there and yet when he came they were so farre off from knowing him that they did kill him and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets euen so fareth it with you ye reade what maner of one Antichrist should be and what he should doe and yet ye are so blinde that ye fulfill it in helping him to murther the Saints The Iewes could not know Christ because they looked for a trim Christ and he came base and poore You haue also deuised a popish fable of Antichrist which doth so sticke in your heads that ye cannot sée the notes and marks of the very Antichrist indéede Pa. Goe to goe to let vs see your great skill and what your scriptures will be whereby ye will shew this thing I feare me we shall haue but slender conclusions Pro. When ye haue tried them then giue iudgement and so although yee should iudge falsly yet yee shall not bee altogether so rash Will ye confesse that S. Paul 2. Thess 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe describe and set forth Antichrist Pa. That I will for I suppose no man will denie it but what are ye the better that which S. Paul doth speake and that which Saint Iohn hath written as concerning Antichrist may more fitly be applied to you then to vs. Pro. If it may as fitly be applied to vs as to you nay I will say further if it may be applied to any but to you let vs be counted heretikes Pa. Saint Paul sayth that the day of the Lord should not come except there came first an apostasie or falling away Doth not this touch you Let al men iudge who are fallen away we or you Are we fallen from you or you from vs Haue we made the departing or haue you Our Church hath alwaies stood fast and vnmoueable you haue rent your selues from vs by what reason can any man say that they haue made the apostasie which haue alwaies and do still keepe their standing and not rather those which are gone out from vs to fulfill that which S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. They went out from vs because they were not of vs. Pro. You would shift this thing from your selues and lay it vpon vs but it cleaueth so fast to your hands that it will not off Ye goe about by a subtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of simple men Wee confesse wee haue made the departure from you and not you from vs because you had departed from the trueth and true Church and had led vs out of the way of trueth vnto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodnesse returned You say your Church hath alwaies stoode stedfast and vnmoueable and therefore hath not made the departing It is true if wee respect place and succession of Bishops but what doth that help ye when ye are departed from the faith which thing ye might and haue done without