Empresses write for Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople and for the Bishop of Rome Wherein though they ascribe the dealings to the Councell and to the Bishop of Rome yet the licence and authoritie to do any thing or to stay any thing they al ascribe to the Emperour And as they ascribe this in these Epistles vnto him which argueth his supreme gouernement in all these matters so the Emperour in the answeres to these Epistles that are immediatly set downe to those by you cited acknowledgeth and claymes his supreme authoritie therein In the answere to the first from whence ye bring your allegation for the Popes primacie he saith The Emperour Theodosius to my Lord Valentinian Emperour In the beginning of your letters it is signified by your Maiestie both that your mildenesse came to Rome and that a petition was offered vp to you by Leo the most reuerende Patriarche As concerning your safe returne to the Citie of Rome O my Lorde my moste holy Sonne and honorable Emperour we render thankes accordingly to the diuine Maiestie but as concerning those things which the foresaide most reuerende man hath spoken it is already declared vnto him more plainly and fully as we suppose and he knoweth that we swarue in no parte from the Religion of our fathers and the tradition of our auncetours We will no other thing than the fathers sacraments deliuered as by succession to keepe them inuiolably For this cause therefore hauing knowledge that certaine persons with hurtfull noueltie trouble the most holy Churches we haue decreed a Synod to be holden at Ephesus VVhereas in the presence of the most reuerend Bishops with much libertie and with sounde truth both the vnworthie were remoued from their Priesthood and those that were iudged to be worthy were receyued VVe therefore know nothing committed of them contrary to the rules of faith or iustice Therefore all the contention was examined of the holy Councell Flauianus which was founde giltie of hurtfull newfanglednesse hath receiued his dew and he being remoued all peace and concorde remaineth in the Churches and nothing but truth doth florish Thus the dealing and determining of the controuersie remayning Synodically to the Priests and Bishops the decreing of the Councell the assigning of the time and place thereto the giuing them in charge to boulte out the truth the receyuing intelligence from them of their iudgements the allowing and ratifying their determination belonged to Theodosius And in respect of this his supreme doing though at other times he extoll the Bishop of Rome yet here he onely calleth him but most reuerende Patriarche and most reuerend man as he calleth other Bishops The answere to the second Epistle hath the like Theodosius to my Ladie Placidia the honorable Empresse our highnesse vnderstandeth by the letters of your mildenesse what the most reuerende patriarch Leo hath desired of your highnesse To these your letters we declare that concerning those things whiche are spoken of the most reuerende Bishop we haue written often times alreadie more fully and more at large by which writing it is without doubt manifest that we haue defined or decreed or vnderstoode nothing besides the fayth of the fathers or the diuine opinions or the definitions of the most reuerende Bishops which were gathered togither in the Citie of Nice vnder Constantine of godly memorie or of late were gathered togither at Ephesus by our precept But this onely we commaunded to be ordeyned that all persons which by noisome hurtfulnesse troubled the holy Churches should worthily be remoued c. Thus doth the Emperour commaunde the Councell to be holden He giueth a generall charge to the Bishops to ordeyne that that they ordeyned to wete the expulsion or deposition of perturbers of the Church whatsoeuer they were and in what matter ecclesiasticall soeuer they were And when the Bishops had according to the Emperours commaundement ordeynes this decrée and in their synodicall discussing of the matter found out Flauianus though therein they did him wrong to be culpable hereof then the Emperor peruseth ratifieth and confirmeth the same their synodicall iudgement and sayth he defined and decreed it himselfe bicause he approued and confirmed their definition and decrée Which is a manifest argument of Thodosius supreme authoritie ouer all the Bishops debatings and determinings of their ecclesiasticall constitutions To the same effect is the other Epistle to Eudoxia Wherin he telleth the Empresse flatly that since these things were alreadie decreed it was not possible to determine of the matter any more In which deniall of suffring the matter to be tryed any further he sheweth also his supreme authoritie of debarring and frustrating any appeales to Rome that you make so great accompt vpon The Emperour will not onely not suffer it to take place and to infringe the Councels and his owne doing but sayth it is impossible to procéede on the matter alreadie determined And thus he reiecteth Flauianus appeale from the Epheâ—…ine Councell to the Bishop of Rome Which Councell notwithstanding should also haue bene held by the Emperours leaue and appoyntment But he would not allow it although Pope Lee laboured to him and to Ualentinian Emperors to Eudoria and Placidia Empresses neuer so much therefore Lo M. St. here are the generalities and the particularities also Wherein ye may sée what belongeth to eyther partie Hearken good M. Stap. and giue good aduertisement therto since ye will not vtter it your selfe and yet woulde haue vs listen to you You say ye wander not in obscure generalities but ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly And yet of all this ye speake not one word Ye would neither answerâ—… the Bishops allegation but set another agaynst it which is no plaine nor true kinde of aunswering neither yet for that you alleage ye alleage it either plainely or truely or particularly as ye pretende But cull out a piece of that that séemeth to set forth your cause by extolling the Bishop of Rome and when the matter is plainly truly and particularly sifted out it neither proueth any supremacie for him and in all poynts sheweth the Princes supremacie against you But ye are the more to be borne withall for I thinke ye read not the whole particulars but either as your commoÌ„ places led you or the title prefixed tickled you that saith In qua quoque Romani Pontificiâ—… authoritas comâ—…ndatur VVherein also the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome is commended And so gréedily ye snatched at that sentence and let go all the residue But call ye this plainly truly and particularly going to worke master Stapleton The. 26. Diuision THe Bishop hauing hitherto as master Feck required in his issue proued by the Scriptures both by the olde testament and the newe and by some such Doctours as haue written thereon and also which was more than M. Feck requested by the ecclesiasticall writers Nicephorus and by some of those Emperors whom they commend for most godly proued the like
chiefly directed to dissuade hir subiects myndes to whome in hucker mucker ye sende these bookes ouer from the acknowledging of the sayde hiâ—… Maiesties supreme authoritie maye it not truly be sayde men maye iustly gather this as youre chiefe ende Is not euery wriâ—…ers chiefe ende to persuade his reader in his principall matter is not this here youre principall matter to improue the taking vpon hir of this authoritie If ye haue any chiefer ende or more principall purpose that is better than this cléere your self and shew it Uerâ—…ly our chiefest end in writing hereof is to persuade hir subiectes that by your deceiuings stand in any mammering to a godly liking of the sayd title as most dâ—…e and lawfull to hir highnesse estate And if yours be not the contrarie hereto let your doings be according and we shal like it the better But see here M. Stapleton how soone ye folter in your numbers and misse in your tale at the fyrste beginning of all ye haue scored vs vp in your marginall score two vntruthes when ye come to counting them twaine afterward in your answere ye recken vs vp thrée saying of the second in your score This is an vntrue and false surmise of Maister Horne as are the other two here also reckning vp that that ye counted for the first And thus wée knowe not whether we haue euen or odde 2. or 3. Wherby all your reckening is marde and false counted Is this your daunce M. Stap. in beginning to trip the round when one lye tumbles out so proprely in the necke of an other But hoysta God blesse them they fallout faire Howbeit as they say it is a good horse that neuer stumbled thoughe it be an euill signe to stumble yea to fall downe right at the first setting out I make proofe by the continuall practise of the Church in like gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir The thirde vntruth you neuer proue the like gouernment namely in all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes The truthe or vntruthe of this being referred to the triall in the sayde practise will soone pull backe this thirde dauncer from hopping in your rounde And as for your self ye are a false piper M. Stapleton thus soone vnto your liâ—… to pipe a wrong rounde harping on an other issue than was required of the B. to proue Wherin as your greate falshood â—…hal appeare so your selfe do here halfe graunt this to be no vntruth daring not flatly say the Bishop neuer pro ued the like gouernment which the Bishop only here affirmeth but you denie it in a respect namely say you in al ecclesiasticall things and causes â–ª which the Bishop here affirmeth not nor it is his propre issue in question demaunded of Master Feck and yet he proueth euen that also I haue put into englishe the authors myndes and sentences The fourth vntruth for he wrongfully alleageth both the wordes and meanings of his authours He bringeth no instance at al wherby to proue this that he sayth which til he can do it must go for a lie of his owne making wherby he measureth other mens translations by his owne corrupting his authors wordes sentences mindes and all as is alreadie declared This title is so replenished with vntrue reportes The fyfth vntruth in wrongfully charging M Feckenham for the title of his treatise Whether Master FeckeÌ„hams treatise had a true title or no lette others déeme Maister Feckenham made a treatise entituled by the name of An ansvvere to the Queenes Maiesties Commissioners and the same by writing be deliuered to the Bishop of Winchester and afterwarde sent abroade the sayd Treatise entituled by name The declaration of suche scruples c. as Maister Iohn Feckenham by vvryting did deliuer vnto the Lorde Bishop c. when he neuer deliuered any suche entituled treaâ—…ise vnto him Is this then vntruly or wrongfully donâ—… to charge him of the title of his treatise His sixth and seuenth vntruth trifling denials You. c. not without the helpe of the reste as may be gathered deuised wrote and purposed to deliuer this booke to the Commissioners The eyght vntruth slaunderous Neither doth the Bishop flatly affirme it but only sayth as may be gathered whervpon M. Stapl. can not iustly gather a flat asseueration one way or other â–ª to conclude his vntruth Neither doth M St. improue it any way thoughe â—…e himselfe and that verie often without any coniecturing of the matter and yet can he gather no iust coniecture therof doth boldly charge the Bishop with the helpe of other Which so often as he doth he shoulde remember that this vntruth returneth on himselfe In al which points ye were so answered that ye had nothing to obiecte but seemed resolued and in a manerfully satisfyed The. 9. vntruth M. Feck was neuer so answered And in his couÌ„terblast he saith had not the B. put in these wordes In a maner otherwise it had passed al goodmaner honestie too so vntruly to make report the contrary being so wel known that he neuer yelded vnto you in any one poynt of religion neither in Courte nor yet in mannour nor else where Ye are a mannerly man I perceyue mayster Stapleton and as full of good manners or honestie it appeareth as an egge is full of oatemeale Belike ye haue bene brought vp neyther at courte nor mannour but at Hogges norton as they saye for otherwise what good manner or honestie is this to chalenge youre better of so heynous vntruth and proue nothyng at all agaynste hym but saye the contrarie is well knowne when your selfe knowe it not at al but speake without the booke For shame M. Stapl. learne better maners to referre it to them that were present at the hearing of both parties and then shal ye hazard your honestie and truth a great deale the lesse and shewe your nourture to be the more Wherevpon I made afterwarde relation of good meaning towardes you to certayn honourable persones of the good hope I had conceyued c. The. 10. vntruth incredible VVhat good meaning coulde he haue to him when he would haue him reuolt from the religion by him receiued and professed at Baptisme to reuolt from the faith of Christes catholike churche c. Why Master Stapleton is this incredible that the Bishop hoping of his conformitie in making relation thereof to the honourable might not haue therin a good meaning yea admitte the truth whiche he professeth were as false as you woulde haue it séeme to bée mighte he not for all that haue a good meaning Saule had a good meaning ye wot when he did full ill And how say ye to your Scholemen that speake so muche good of a good meaning yea euen in ill causes But as the Bishop meant wel to him so the cause was good also and your cause naught how well so euer ye meane in an
now Luther can take no place amongst vs he obiecteth another vnto vs one Andreas Modrenius And yet his saying also maketh God wote ful little for the Papists herein Who saith there ought to be some one to be taken for the chiefe and supreme head in the whole Church in all causes ecclesiasticall What conclude ye M. St. herevpon Ergo it must be your Pope or no christian prince And here as though all these were not yet sufficient testimonies ye bring in Caluin But since ye doe it but to fill vp your booke with that common allegation of your side which being also not omitted of M. FeckeÌ„ham is to be referred to be propounded and answered vnto in his proper place I therefore remit you thither Onely to that ye say he so spitefully handled King Henrie the eyght as hee neuer handled the Pope more spitefully I aunswere this is but your spitefull lie to deface the Protestantes Else why doe ye not proue the same And as for your Pope it is euident also he neuer handled him spitefully but onely reproued his vyces and errours by the worde of god But howe spitefullie your Pope and popishe Prelates so farre as they coulde handeled him and howe spitefully they handle all Protestantes that they maye once sette their spitefull spirituall fingers vppon all the worlde doeth sée And yet the silie Protestantes muste beare all the blame it is not ynoughe for them to beare the iniuryes This lesson ye learned of the Diuell of Dowgate to bite and whine also or rather ye doe as Esops Woolfe did chalenge the poore Lambe for troubling his water and to misuse him spitefully but thys mercifull Woolfe deuoured this spitefull Lambe He vrgeth vs farther in great outcryes with a sentence of one Anthonie Gilbie our own Countriman The summe of his argument is this Anthonie Gilbie an Englishe man speaketh verie vnreuerently and vnreligiously of King Henrie the eight Ergo the Protestantes now in England whatsoeuer they pretende and dissemble in wordes in heart mislike the Quéenes maiesties gouernment How doth this follow M. St and yet ye wrest Anthonie Gilbies sentence also He speaketh not of this supremacie neyther but in plaine wordes of such a supremacie in England as the Pope chalengeth all ouer Christendome Though therefore he be greatly to be blamed for his vnreuerent speach and for his vnaduised mistaking of hys Princes lawfull authoritie yet is he not to be belyed as though he spoke of all kinde of supremacie in all princes simplie It is a shame as they say M. St. euen to belie the Diuell But sée how the matter falleth out Ye haue brought Anthonie Gilbyes sentence agaynst vs and the Quéenes maiesties authoritie Haue ye not wel holpeÌ„ your self if this sentence also make flat agaynst your pope For if as he sayth therin truely Christ ought onely to be the head of the church the placing of any other displaceth him then is not the pope the head also but the placing of him displaceth christ But the Pope chalengeth to be the heade of the Churche also which our prince doth not Ergo not our prince but your Pope displaceth christ And thus thinking to beate vs ye still make a rodde for your owne Popes tale And here sodenly calling to mind how far he hath straied in forraging out these sentences he returneth a little to the Bishop setting on him for calling the Pope the Papists god in earth the archeheretike of Rome and that M. Fec would haue him reigne in the Queenes place Besturring himselfe with a heape of arguments to defende his Pope Besides his scoffes raylings and other rhetoricall floures quoted in his common places But first for his Pope sayth he VVe make no God of the Pope and sometimes perhaps no good man neyther In déede M. Stap. ye should haue more than both your handes full to make your Pope sometimes a good man â–ª ye néede not put perhaps to the matter It would pose him selfe and all the Diuels in hell and that oftentymes to worke such a miracle on him as that man of sinne that childe of perdition and aduersarie of God to become a good man. But yet I say beware howe ye speake such buggishe words of him as not to be a good man. Whose wil is law whose law is all power in heauen in earth in hell Nowe can this be an ill man Beware least this come to his eares M. Stap. and withall that ye make him not a God in earth Are not you of theyr religion that beléeue and confesse this principle 〈◊〉 deus noster Papa Our Lorde God the Pope Yea and as some say he is Plusque deuâ—… If ye be beware his thunderbolt If ye be not whie defende ye him and his errors against the truth of God whie forsake you your most vertuous Prince to follow a straunger and that an yll man but you answere And yet we reuerence him for his office and authoritie that Christ so amply and honourably gaue him for preseruation of vnitie and quietnesse in his Church That ye reuerence him in déede and that is more adore him to is manifest But the patent of that his office and authoritie that ye crake Christe so amplie and so honorably gaue your Pope ye shewe none nor where nor how nor when he gaue it Only ye tell vs of the endes wherefore he gaue it For the preseruation of vnitie and quietnes in his Church But if these were the endes M. St. he hath forfeited his patent long ago That not onely disagreeth from the expresse wordes and commauÌ„dement of Christ but swerueth one Pope from another And how chance he setteth his own scholemeÌ„ his Canonists at no better vnitie his Thomists and his Scotistes his sects of Religions at no better quietnes than a tâ—…ade a snake togither how chance he agreeth no better with his Bishops his own colledge of cardinals How chance he falleth out so often with Emperours and kings setteth Princes their subiectes by the eares togither why fighteth he so fast with both his swordes like king Arthures dubble sworded knight why had he rather at this day that al christendome were in a broyle so much blâ—…ud were cruelly shedde than he would relent one inche of his honour one penie of his filthie gaine one iâ—…te of his errors Idolatries false dectrines that eueÌ„ are coÌ„fessed of his own secte giue place to the worde of God is this his preseruing of vnitie and quietnes in the Church of Christ or had he any such patent giuen him hath he not lost and lost it againe and will ye still reuerence and adore him for it Secondly where the Bishop calleth your Pope the arch-heretike of Rome Your wisedome say you with like truth also appeareth in that ye call the Pope the Archeheretike of Rome naming no man and so your wordes so liberally waÌ„tonly cast out do as well comprehende
that said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop betweene him that fasted and that did not fast and that the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse Howe say you to Iouinian that denied virginitie to haue any excellencie aboue Matrimonie or any speciall rewarde at Gods handes to the Arians that denied the miracles done at Saints tombes to be true Miracles and that the Martyres can not cast out the Diuels and relieue them that be possessed To the Bogomiles that said the Diuels sate at the Saints tombes and did wonders there to illude and deceyue the people to cause the people to worship them To Berengarius condemned in diuerse Councels first for denying of the Real presence in the Sacrament of the Altare and then for denying the Transubstantiation To the Paulicians that said these woordes of Christ take eate this is my bodie are not to be vnderstanded of his bodie or the bread and wine vsed at the celebration of our Lordes maundie but of the holy Scriptures â–ª which the priestes should take at Christes hande and deliuer and distribute to the people To Claudius and Vigilantius that denied the inuocation of Saintes and enueighed against the blessed reliques and the vse of lightes and other ceremonies of the Church To the Massilians and other heretikes saying that concupiscence as a sinne remaineth in vs after holy baptisine And bicause ye shall not say I suppresse conceale or obscure the chiefe and most notable persons of your auncestrie how say ye to the Emperours Philippicus Leo Constantinus condemned with their adherentes by the seuenth general Councel at Nice that villayned by defacing breaking and burning the images of all the holy hallowes of Christ and Christes to to whome for your more honour and glorie I adioyne the Emperour Iulianus the Apostata VVho as ye do in your bookes and pulpits cried out vppon the Christians O ye wretched men that worship the wood of the Crosse setting vp the signe of it vppon your foreheads and dores you therefore that are of the wisest sorte are worthy to be hated and the residue to be pitied that treading after your steppes come to such a kinde of wretchednesse To the Pelagians affirming that children not Baptised shal be saued and yet are your Maisters in this point worse than the Pelagians aswell for that some of them haue saide that some infantes though vnbaptized shal be damned and some other though vnbaptized shal be saued And some of them especially Caluine and other Sacramentaries say that they shall come without Baptisme to the kingdome of heauen which the Pelagians durst not say but that they should haue the life euerlasting putting a difference but peeuishlie betwixt these two And if ye thinke the race of your worthie generation is not fetched high inough we wil mount higher and as high as may be euen to Simon Magus him selfe Of whome Marcion and Manicheus and after long and honorable succession your Patriarches Luther and Caluine haue learned their goodly doctrine against free will. Yea to touche the very fundation and wellspring of this your new Gospell which altogether is grouÌ„ded vpon Iustification without good works in that also ye draw very nigh to the said Simon Magus In all this here is nothing els but the heaping vp of an impertinent sâ—…launderous and maliciouse rable partely of Heretikes partely of no Heretikes some of them falsely belied most of them falsely applied eyther they defending no such things or some of these us Heresies nor any of their Heresies mainteyned of vs. First for the Arianisme of Aerius with whom M. Stapleton beginneth would God the Papistes had not as much defaced the glory of Christ as did the Ariaus but he findeth no faulte with them therefore He vpbraydeth to vs thrée other pointes First that Aerius said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop and ye aâ—…e M. Stapleton how say we to him What soeuer we say to him we haue first to say to you that sauing the reuerence of your Priesthood there is no difference betweene you and a lier to obiect Aerius herein to vs Whereas ye know well inough our Church doth acknowledge in the ministerie a difference of Deacon and Elder from a Bishop although not according to your Popish orders For as neyther Epiphanius nor yet Augugustine quoted by you speaketh there of any sacrificing Priest so he neuer knewe any such Pontificall prelates as your Popishe Churche bréedeth And yet of those that were euen then in Epiphanius time and of their difference from the Elders or Priestes if ye know not how it came Hierome that liued in the same age will tell you or if ye haue not redde him your owne Canons will tell ye what he saithe I dem est ergo Presbyter qui Episcopus antequam Diabols studia c. An Elder or Priest therefore is the same that a Bishop and before that the studies of the Diuell were made in Religion and that the people saide I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas the Churches were gouerned by the common Counsell of the Elders but after that euery one did accompt those to be his and not to be Christes whome he had Baptized in all the worlde it was decreed that one of the Elders being chosen should be placed aboue the rest to whom all the care or charge of the Church should belong and the seede of scismes be taken away And a litle after Sicut ergo Presbyteri as therefore the Elders know that they by the custome of the church are subiect to him that is set ouer them so let the Bishops know that they more by custome than by the truth of the Lordes dispeÌ„sation are greater than the Elders This was the iudgement of the auncient Fathers yet were they no Arians nor Aerians therefore Yea Peter Lombarde the maister of the sentences citing also Isidorus to witnesse saith Apud vetereâ—… idem Episcopi Presbyterâ—… fuerunt Among the auncient Fathers Bishops and Elders were all one And againe alleaging the Apostle S. Paule he saith Qualis autem â–ª c. But what manner an Elder ought to be chosen the Apostle writing to Timothie declareth where by the name of Bishop he signifieth an Elder And anon after Cumque omnes and when all of them he meaneth his false seueÌ„ orders are spirituall and holy yet the Canons account only two orders to be excelling holie that is to say Deaconship and Eldership Bicause the primitiue Churche is redde to haue these alone and we haue the Apostles commaundement of these alone for the Apostles in euery Citie ordeined Bishops and Elders Neyther the Master only writeth thus but almost all your schoolemen yea though they be them selues of the contrarie opinion yet they write this was the auncient opinion And so Durandus though he make a difference betwéene the power of Iurisdiction the power of order yet he sheweth that
it may rather confounde for they confounde their offices turning Bishops not as it were into lay men but into lay men in deede What the Bishops wordes do meane is most playne to a man of meane witte that list not to Iangle about nothing neither the wordes importe any such meaning nor this is any thing in question the ministeriall office but the supreme gouernment which are two farre different things But since that to no purpose ye chalenge the B. for curtalling Eusebius words let vs behold how you do set them downe For thus say you he saith to the Bishops Vos quidem eorum quae intus sunt in Ecclesia agenda ego vero eorum qua extra sunt Episcopus à Deo sum constitutuâ—… You are Bishops saith he of those thinges that are to be done within the Church I am Bishop of outwarde thinges which answere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in which declareth him no supreme Iudge or chiefe determiner of causes Ecclesiasticall but rather the contrarie and that he was the ouerseer in ciuill matters And the most that may be enferred hereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt Ye would faine I sée M. Stapl. reuoke your graunt and it could be cleanly conueyde or so to limite it that it might not appéere ye haue granted that that all your fellowes denie But this reuocation is to late Neuerthelesse fuli pretely ye compasse the matter to defeate all these most plaine not wordes but doings of Constantine by shoouing at this name B. shop in the Emperour which in any case ye caÌ„ not abide And therefore as who though B. went aboute to confounde the offices of a Bishop and of a Prince and thereto had concealed Eusebius words ye solemnly take on yâ—…n to set them out both in Latine and in English. But tell me by that false faith of yours M. Stapleton why ye haue not translated the wordes aright in English that ye haue set downe in Latine did ye sée in déede they made nothing for you but rather much against you is the English of intus in Ecclesia within the Church And the English of eorum quae extra Outward ciuill things or matters or Ego vero c. Episcopus à ' Deo sum constitutâ—… I am a Bishop what is manifest corruption of plaine wordes and euident sense if this be not this is past cutting of the tayle M. St. or slitting his nose and paring his eares to dresse it like a perfect curtall but euen to cutte both buttockes and heade away and make it a carrion karkasse this translating is trans I ordanem in déede But the wordes of Constantine the sense are plaine You saith he speaking to the spirituall pastours are Bishops of those thinges that in the Churche are to be done within or inwardly But I am appointed of God a Bishop of those things that are forthout or outwardly As who should say your Bishoply office in Gods Churche is in the ministeris of those things that worke inwardly that perce the heart enter into the soule cleaue the thoughtes in sunder and properly belong to the inwarde man the liuely worde of god My Bishoply office in Gods Churche is distinguished from this and is in things without that is in the outwarde setting forth and publique direction of Gods worde to be duly taught by you Thus both their offices were in Gods Church the matter and groundworke of both their Bishoprikes was Gods true religion But the doing of the one was pertayning to the inwarde man the doing of the other to the outwarde man. And this is the very distinctioÌ„ that Constantine maketh which being not falsely translated as you do and so misunderstoode may satisfie as ye say any reasonable man But your vnderstanding is very vnreasonable to vnderstand by inward things things ecclesiasticall and by outward things only ciuill things in déede they be out and quite out of the consideration of the Churche But wherefore then called he him selfe a Bishop also with them yea an vniuersall Bishop as Eusebius termeth him but to declare that his ouersighte was in the same matter that was theirs the matter was Gods truth and Religion in bothe the manner was outwarde or inwarde as eithers Bishoprike required Otherwise if he had meant onely of ciuill matters as you expounde he had bene no more a Bishop thereby than the very Soldane or great Turke or any other Heathen Prince that ouersee their ciuill matters very circumspectly And so as ye did in your fourth Chapter ye make Constantine for all these notable things in him that your selfe before haue graunted no better than an infidell Prince in this behalfe For by outward ye say is meant ciuill matters But the ciuill gouernement ye say also reacheth no furder than the peoples quietnesse wealth abundance and prosperouse maintenance that these thinges are common as well to the heathen as to the Christian gouernment Thinke ye M. Stapleton these Fathers meant no furder gouernment nor in other matters than these when they called Constantine an vniuersall Bishop and that Constantine measured his office no furder when he called him selfe by the name of a Bishop â–ª for shame M. Stapleton deface not to Christian a Prince after so Turkish a manner nor thereto so manifestly falsifie your authour nor abuse your reader with such a shamelesse impudence Well say you And the moste that may be inferred thereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt May we be assured M. Stapleton on your worde that all your popish Catholikes will graunt euen thus much For I verily feare they will graunt it no furder than it pleaseth them And where ye are so readie to assure vs of others graunts what assurance haue we had alreadie of all your owne liberall graunts when ye were disposed to wrangle as now againe ye do for how agreeth this euen with your former graunt that Princes might make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion that Princes might take some regiment vppon them in Ecclesiasticall causes yea might do as much as all these ensamples specifie and that now ye make the most to be but the procuration and execution of Church matters Although what ye meane by these wordes ye tell not would ye haue them onely the Churches that is as you meane by the Churche onely the Priests proctours and executioners now truly ye limite them a full faire office But thinke ye the name of B. and vniuersall B. did importe nothing els was that the most that may be inferred thereof and yet that is more than onely to be their executioner as ye said before to be as ye adde here to it their proctour also Yea it is
But sith none hath aduentured on it I thought it my dutie to yeelde to the godlie and vrgent requestes of those personages that vnderstanding I had priuately delte therin required the publishing of my labours to the vvhich I condescended a great deale the vvillinger partly bicause it touched vvithall the defence of that Reuerende fathers innocencie and learning the Bishop of VVinchester vvho had although briefly yet most orderly and exactly handled this questioÌ„ before and vvas oppugned by this aduersarie neither vvas it for diuers causes thought so coÌ„uenient for the Bishop himselfe to ansvvere and I for my part was bounde in so iust a cause to defend him But chiefly for that it spared not most opprobriously to slaunder your most excelleÌ„t Maiestie your title your state your gouernment your most honorable and godlie CouÌ„saile your nobilitie your Bishops your clergie your magistrats your iustices your people and all estates of your dominions your doctrine your faith your religion yea the truth and glorie of God vvhich your Highnesse defendes to all vvhich I and all other are bounde in principall I thought not good therefore to stay it any longer and suffer these vncircumcised Philistines blaspheming the truth of God reproching the Lords anoynted and rayling on the hoste of Israel to stand thus and vaunt vnansvvered but lette this ansvvere that I had thus farforth made in priuate â–ª come abrode to others Promising god vvilling by your Maiesties fauourable protection to deale further vvith them and to shevvethe continuall practise hereof hovve in all ages since Christendome began to flourishe vnder the Great Constantine that christian Emperors Kings and Princes haue dealte as doth your Maiestie in the ouersight of Ecclesiastical matters till the Pope by little and little encroching on them not onely spoyled them of this their chief authoritie but of their temporal estates and vvorldly kingdoms yea of their goodes liues also In the meane season for this that is here alreadie ansvvered vnto I most humbly craue your Highnesse acceptation vvhose right is here defended by truth from sclanders that by iustice defendeth our right from iniuries Most hartily beseeching almightie God as he hitherto hath vouchsafed so to blesse preserue continue and prosper your Royal Maiestie to the loÌ„g establishing of your Highnes Throne to the vtter vanquishing of all your spirituall and bodily priuie and open enimies to the godlie comforte and quiet gouernment of all your faithful subiects and to the prosperous aduancement of Gods euerlasting glorie thorough Iesus Christe AMEN Youre Maiesties humble and obedient subiect IOHN BRIDGES The Preface to the Reader IT is nowe a good while since deare Christian Reader that this maister Stapletons Counterblast was blowne ouer the seas from Louaine against the Reuerende father in Christe the Bishop of Winchester or rather against the Quenes Maiestie and hir Supremacie was thus farre answered vnto as here is nowe set foorth Which may easily be perceiued by the reading for there is little or nothing altered except a sentence or two here there added as things haue falne out since I speake this that thou shouldest not here loke for any great or exquisite penning thinking that after so loÌ„g a leysure some more notable and exacter answere should come forth Our aduersaries vaunt much of their wittes herein and chieâ—…y this my matefellow master Stapleton to be verie fresh pregnant in readinesse of answering for he is his mothers sonne and hath it on his fingers ends Howbeit I may say to these as Apelles sayd to one who when he had drawne a picture Lo quoth he I did this apace Some thinkes quoth Apelles it is so ruÌ„ningly done And thus it falleth often out with our Loâ—…anists writings but Sat cito si sat bene It is soone ynough if it be well inough say I when all is done The reasâ—… why this answere came forth no soner are these First I kept it priuate to my self abyding if either the Bishop against whome it was made or any other woulde aunswere to it Secondly I heard at the length that Maister Nowell the Deane of Poules trauayled in it whose learning and wisedome being suche as all the aduersaries could neuer withstand I surceased to proceede any further Thirdly when I perceiued he set not out his answere neither I thought it best to lay myne asyde also Thinking that either he was stayed vpoÌ„ som weightier consideration than I did know or else that he did thinke the boke not worth the answering at al as in very deed to the lerned marker it is not M. Nowel had answered Dorman in muche like matter before which were the occasioÌ„s why it slept so loÌ„g But since that time as many haue mused and talked much on the matter so they haue not a little marueiled why nothing was said vnto it The argument was great and waightie not so muche whether nowe the Supremacie belonged to the Pope as whether it pertained to the ciuil Magistrate and whether the Queenes Maiestie did claime and hold it by right or no The parties in controuersie were of note as wel master Feckenham among the Papistes as the Bishop of Winchester whose estimation among vs is not more for his authoritie than his name amoÌ„g other nations for his learning Nowe when Master Stapleton stept in lyke a lustie yoncker and blewe vp this Counterblast betwene these twain so hotly hallowing for answer out of hande to be made by the Bishop therto al this while had none some did interprete it that he was a very vnfit matche for so graue a Bishop as to say the truth the match was nothing euen And therefore I wite not the Bishop if he vouchsafed not to answer him especially seing home his booke was so pestred with scoldes and scorners Rhetorike Neither will the horse of noble corage strike at euery brauling curre that barks at his heeles But when others missecoÌ„strued this to the worst said the Counterblast was so notably blown that the Bishop durst not nor was able he nor any other to answer it wheÌ„ vpon the head of all this M. Saunders Latine volume coÌ„mes forth although chiefly on the Popes visible Monarchie yet once again entring into this questioÌ„ of the Princes Supremacie with fresh matter as he bosteth with such inuincible arguments against it that all are but vnlearned starke fooles and cleane madde that do defend it and not thus content so depresseth the Princes estate that he will now proue the Pope hath interest to depose al Christian Princes and release their sâ—…biects of their sworn obedience which valiant champion vauÌ„teth also of his felow Stapletons noble peece of woorke againste the Princes Supreme Gouernment saying in his prayse Quod argumentum â–ª Thomas Stapletonus omnium copiosissimè tractaâ—…it in â—…o Libro quenâ—… 〈◊〉 eloquentia doctrina refertum contra Hornum Psâ—…udoepiscopum Wintoniensâ—… edidiâ—… vvhiche argument Thomas Stapleton hathe moste copiously handeled in that booke vvhiche beeing replenished
vvith all eloquence and learning he set foorth against Horne the false Bishop of VVinchester So stornfully this rayling Papiste speaketh of the Bishop and so he braggeth of his fellowes lerning and eloquence All whiche considered I thought it necessarie and more than high tyme to answer these proude Phariseis least the goodnesse of the cause should become distrusted the truth suspected the Prince slaundered the Bishop defaced the enimie encouraged the godlie offended the simple abused and the whole estate euill spoken of by too muche vnfrutefull silence and ouerlong suffrance of such false and glorious pratlers And although for these causes I was the willinger to sette it foorth yet was I the more emboldned on the request of diuerse that hearing I had trauailed in it by their godlie persuasions vrged me the more thereto The chiefe of the Argument consisteth on the Supreme gouernement of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall The occasion sprang of a controuersie betweene the Bishop of Winchester and master FeckenhaÌ„ about the Oth of the Supremacie All which is extant abroade in a learned and pithie booke of the Bishops answering to maister Feckenhams scruples The issue they draue the matter vnto was this that maister Feckenham must be resolued for the Princes Supreme Gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes by any of these foure meanes the Scripture the Doctours the Councels or the Practise The Bishop accepteth the offer and maketh proofe of the Princes Supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes not onely by any one but by euery one of all these forsayd poyntes as the Bishops booke is euident to testifie Maister Feckenham that had made his promise to take the Oth vponany of these proues and seing them all beyond his cunning and expectation proued but neither mynding to keepe touche nor able to answere suborneth a chapman from beyond the seas to wit this Louanist maister Stapleton if he may be called Maister for order of schole degree that is suche a renegate from God and runnagate from his Prince who to saue maister Feckenhams honestie if he woulde aduenture to relieue his cause master Feckenham should to saue his credite vouchesafe to relieue his neede Master Stapleton hauing better furniture of sale eloquence than store of grounded learning and yet more learning than grace well to imploy it in acknowledging the manyfest truth taketh vpon him to aunswere the Bishop and deuides all the matter into foure Bookes whereof this is the fyrst that here is answered This doone he conceiueth suche apride of this his exquisite piece of worke that we must needes haue some fyne new name for this fyne newe booke singular heads ye know must haue singular inuentions and bicause the Bishops name is M. Horne he entitleth his worke forsooth a Counterblast And yet somwhat truer than he himselfe wist beeing in deed a blast scarce worth a Counter if the reader well examine it And that ye maye the better perceiue this volume deserues so rare a name for these two rare gifts eloquence and learning for which maister Sanders so highly extolleth him Mulus mulum scabit And sith these two champions beare now the bell for eloquence among the Papists the one for English the other for Latine I haue sorted maister Stapletons eloquence by it self consisting on certain CoÌ„mon places folowing that we may the easier iudge of the substance of his learning whiche otherwise we should not so well discerne it is so poudred with his eloquence His eloquence I confesse I haue sayde but little vnto nor can say muche nor would say ought vnto it as one that neuer was trained vp in the scholes and arte therof As for maister Stapleton goeth beyond maister Saunders and withoute all comparison is an A perse Doctor in it and therfore I set it asyde the better to viewe the learning to the whiche I had more especiall regarde for when all is done the Eloquence settes it out but the Learning proues the matter And though it be not replyed vpon with suche learning as many other better coulde that rather shoulde haue doone it yet haue I endeuored truly simply and playnely to answere it and I hope to the coÌ„tentation of the modest Reader that rather respecteth the boulâ—…ing out of the truthe the staye of his conscience and the glorie of God than either the estimation of learning or the shewe of eloquence Nowe although the Supremacie be the principall matter yet the importunitie of maister Stapleton hath once or twice caried me perforce away with him to purge our selues of certain auncient Herekes that he layeth to our charge and crieth so faste vpon vs for answere and sayeth we styll slinke from it as though we hearde it not and therefore I haue here at large made aunswere to it which makes the volume aryse the bigger In somuche that I thought for all maister Stapletons exclamations to haue lefte it out or put it in one of his Common places But that Maister Saunders commeth rufflyng in wyth the like argument and therefore I lette it stande as it did And I truste I haue cleerely disburdened vs and iustly burdened them therewyth tyll they shall be hable to discharge themselues therof I desyre good Reader but euen indifferencie in thy iudgement Last of all since Master Sanders hath compiled his great volume of the Popes Uisible Monarchie in the secoÌ„d book wherof he entreth into this argumeÌ„t of the Princes Supremacie I haue chosen out of the second booke 4. chapters of the state of the Ciuil and Ecclesiastical power in the Original in the Use and End of both of the Interest and superioritie of either state chiefly of that he would not only defeate the Prince of all gouernment in matters Ecclesiasticall but also clean dispossesse hir Maiestie of hir Crowne For maister Saunders to mayntein the trecherous fact of Pâ—…us the fift the last Pope if Cardinal Bon Compagnion Pope Good fellowe as the talke wente be not deade woulde proue that Bishops may depose their Princes and assoyle their subiectes from their allegeance Whiche poyntes as they draw nerest to the present argument and in deed are for learning suche learning as it is the principall pointes of all his volume I thought good to ioyâ—… them vnto Stapleton and so in one answer answere both though both be answered seuerally as they drawe neere or farre in resemblance or varietie of Argument example or similitude aboute this matter Wherein what is doone I committe vnto thee good Christian Reader to iudge as God shall moue thy heart and besecche thou him to moue it to the best That the truth may appeare that the falshode may be detected that thou mayst be edified that the Prince may be obeyed that the Gospel maye be prospered and that God aboue al things may be glorified nowe and for euer Amen Master Stapletons common places THat all master Stapletons whole volume as well therein himselfe termeth it a Counterblast is indéede but a verie blast blowne out to encounter the
graue and pithie 〈◊〉 of the right reuerende father in Christ Robert Bishop of Winchester to â—…he Libell of M. Feckenhams scruples for refusall of the othe of the Quéenes Maiesties Supremacy withall to blow out thereby to darken the clearenesse of the truth these light clowdes without moysture whereof Saint Iude prophecied I haue good Reader or euer I enter into the â—…laying of the Counterblast gathered togither by themselues as it were in a table of common places all those blastes wherewith his Counterblast is puffed vp and haue sorted them in seuerall windes and blastes whereby thou mayste knowe as it were by a chart into what coast he is alwayes caried and by what gale of winde he sayleth so shalt thou the better finde in what créeke he setteth footing whether on fast or on foggie grounde Which that it may the better appeare beholde the most or principall of those windes wherwith M. St in this his first booke and so encreasing more and more in the residue as we shall likewise sée when we come therto bluâ—…ring like an other Aeolus bloweth forth his Counterblast M. Stap â–ª chiefe common places 1 His spitefull rayling 2 His reprochfull slaunders 3 His scoffes and scornes 4 His immoderate bragging 5 His flourishing Rhetorike 6 His impertinent discourses 7 His false translations 8 His wordes of course 9 His petit quarels 10 His contradictions to himselfe and his fellowes 11 To the whiche is added his beaderoll of vntruthes with a plaine and briefe aunswere to euerie one of them The most of these his common places being such as here thou féest I thinke good reader thou wilt looke for no great aunswere vnto them it is aunswere good inough to make them stande forth and shewe themselues like proper fellowes mustring in their rankes and troupes howbeit if any perticular things shall be thought worthie the aunswering either in these common places they shall be satisfied or else more at large in the aunswere to the Counterblast it selfe nothing God willing whereby master Stapleton or any of his friendes may iustly finde themselues grieued shall be omitted The residue of these common places that are eyther vnworthie any aunswere or so much as the naming except to shewe with what spirite our student is moued shall be aunswered in the fronts and endes of these common places euen with his owne wordes in vpbrayding the same to the Bishop VVhy seest thou a moâ—…e in thy brothers eie but considerest not the beame that is in thine one eie Either how canst thou say to thy brother Brother let me pull out the moâ—…e that is in thine eie when thou seest not the beame that is in thine owne eie â–ª Thou hypocrite cast out the beame out of thine owne eie first and theâ—… shalt thou see perfitly to pull out the moaâ—… that is in thy brothers eie Master Stapletons owne obiections of rayling THat I may a little roll in your rayling Rhetorike wherein 80. 2. ye vniustly rore out c. His first common place of spitefull rayling A Pestilent ranke of most shamefull vntruthes an vnsauerie In his 1. Pref. and vaine kinde of reasoning Pag. 4. Shamefull and malicious 4. Your bastarde daughter 5. A mishapen lumpe of lewde and lose arguments ib. Most wretched and miserable handling 8. Most lying replie ibid. Dishonest and shamefull shiftes ibid. Miserable peruerting ibid. Your peruersitie 9. Your fonde foolish and hereticall paradox 11. Your owne whoredome 12. You most shamefully dissemble 12. A most captaine and notable lie 12. Most miserably wretchedly pinched pared dismeÌ„bred most shamefully contaminated depraued and deformed 12. You beare such a spitefull and malicious heart 13. Most falsly and lewdly 13. The cankred and malicious heart ye beare 13. You are false and malicious 13. A partiall writer an euident falsary 14. Ye write so Turkishly 14. Such Turkish trecherie might better haue bene borne in the lauishing language of your hoâ—…e spurred ministers 14. Blinde bayarde 14. Ye do like furious Aiax 14. Your turkish talke 15. The Turkish spirite that lurketh in you 15. Bluster and blowe fume and frette raue and rayle as lowdly as lewdly as beastly as boldely â–ª 15. Ye bluster not so boysterously c. as ye lie most lewdly 15. Ye well deserue to be sewed on an action of the case 16. Villaynously ye slaunder 16. You and your fellowes most rightly and truely are prooued Donatists 16. You are farre from a true Catholike 16. A most ridiculous wrangler 18. Freighted and stuffed with falshoodes 19. Your vntruthes do swaâ—…me and muster 19. Master Iuell ioyneth obstinacie to follie 20 Ye are at a poynt to lie 20. A false Prophete and a lying master 20. Most ignorantly ye defende the othe 21. Poysoned and cankred reproch 21. Your most slaunderous accusation 22. Your heighnous heresies 23. His seconde Preface WHat sielie shiftes and miserable escapes master Horne hath deuised to maintaine that obstinately which he once conceiued erroneously 26. Master Horne stoutly but fondly auoucheth 27. Master Hornes whole aunswere is but a vaine blast 29. Heresie scisme great and abhominable heresie 31. The replie to the Bishops Preface AN vntrue and false surmise Fol. 2. b. Tedious and infinite talke and babling 4. a. Foolish wilinesse or wilie foolishnesse 4. b. VVhat an impudent face as harde as a horne or stone haue you besides your mere follie 5. a. The first booke YOur fonde and folishe cauill 7. a. Miserable and wretched peruerting 7. a. Ye are but an vsurper and intruder 7. b. M. Poynet was but an vsurper 8. a. Ye are c. no doubt an heretike 8. b. By this your incest wretchedly prophaned and villained 8 b. M. Horne a starke schismaticke and heretike 11. a. Diuelish and spritishe 14. a. Blasphemous horrible and villainous ibid. M. Horne most maliciously ascribeth c. most wickedly surmiseth 14. b. That poysoned roote of Luther and his strumpet Kate. 15. b. The wicked tabernacle of their loytring heresies 16. a. Runnagate preachers 16. b. The gaping rauens mouths the hereticall broode 17. a. Schismaticall sermons rebellious protestants 17. a. Protestanticall rebells 19. b. This man so falsly and maliciously bloweth his horne 21. a. You being a sacramentarie 22. a. The gehennicall Church 26. a. Losely and lewdly without any regarde 33. a. Blynde fonde foolish and false starke false blindly and lewdly 33. b. The straunge proceeding of the Parliament agaynst Gods Church 33. b. Your poore wretched soule 36 a. As you without all knowledge 37. b. The dirtie dung of filthy schisme and heresie 38. b. Ye worke vnskilfully and vngodly ibid. Your great offence schisme and heresie ibid. Your hard stonie heart ibid. A loude lewde lie 38. b. Peruersitie and malice concurrant for your infidelitie 40. b. Variable diuers deceiuable and false 40. a. Topicall and pestiferous translation 40. b. False daungerous and damnable gloses 41. a. These errours and heresies 41. a. b. You and your fellowes teach false and superstitious religion many
eyes to see eares to heare and handes to feele we can not choose but beholde it in the face 434. a. Ye had neede looke well to your selfe remember nowe among other things master Horne c. Take heede master Horne Thinke vpon this at your good laysure remember also howe ye stande c. VVherein I pray you resteth a great part of your newe clergie B. But in Butchers C. Cookes Catchpoles and Coblers D. Diers Daubers F. Fellons Fishermen G. Gunners H. Harpers I. Inkeepers M. Merchants and Mariners N. Netmakers P. Potters Poticaries and Porters of Belingsgate R. Ruffling Ruffians S. Sadlers Sheremen and Shepeheardes T. Tanners Tylers Tinkers Trumpetters VV. VVeauers VVherrymen 481. a. b. This and such other is his Rhetorik eyther flourishing with 〈◊〉 wordes running on a letter and nowe and then sifting the whole crosse rowe for them Or else doubling and trâ—…bling of 〈◊〉 phrases or multiplying of wordes with which euery sentence is in a maner farced For 〈◊〉 is not commonly content to expresse his minde with one worde be it 〈◊〉 so plaine except he vnderproppâ—… it with an other at the least as thus miserable and wretched peruerting and deprauing The full illustration and opening of whole and entyre matter Euidently and openly disciphered and disclosed espied and vnbuckled bewrayed and detected opened illustred and confirmed Which as it is most vaine babling so is it altogither vnworthy the noting except briefly to shew the reader what kinde of vanitie he hath puft vp this his Counterblast withall His sixt common place of impertinent discourses His ovvne obiection of the same LIke a wanton Spaniell hee runneth from his game at riot 243. Master Horne sayth he seeketh out bye matters leauing the principall as the Donatistes did 321. a. That thou mayest the better sée howe he obserueth this and kéepeth himselfe to his matter or no first beholde the issue and state of the question betwéene the Bishop and M. Fëckhenham which is this VVhether any Prince haue taken on them any such supreme gouernment as dothe the Q. Maiestie in ecclesiasticall causes Which issue to be resolued in Master Feckenham desireth the proufe by any of these foure wayes eyther by the Scriptures or by the Doctors or by the Councels or by the continuall practise in any one part of Christendome To the which issue by all these foure said wayes the Bishop directeth all his prooues and in this first booke he prooueth it by two of them the Scriptures and the Doctors Now whether Master Stapleton kéepe himself to this issue or to the proufes thereof or to the Bishops answere without playing the wanton Spaniell and the part of the Donâ—… iudge when thou hast read this his sixt common place And withall thou shalt sée what good plentie of bye matters he had in store when substantiall matter â—…ayled him In his first Preface taking on him to gather abriefe summe of such things as he thought specially he might deface the Bishop withall throughout all his Preface he neuer setteth 〈◊〉 the issue in controuersie but quarelleth about other things with the Bishops rashnesse follie Grammer Logike Rhetorike Arithmetike And where at the length he speaketh of king Henrie 1. his dealings in punishing Priestes whoredome to shewe â—…ow of purpose he séeketh out his quarelles he slinketh from the Princes dealing wherewith he is vrged and sayth this is not the thing we now seeke for but to know what kinde of whoredome it was that the Priestes shoulde be punished for Pag. 12. And Pag. 18. letting go the matter that he is in hande withall he discourseth agaynst the Bishop of Sarum about Sabellicus titles In the 2. Preface where he bindeth himselfe 〈◊〉 than in the. 1. to declare the whole pith of the question and course of the Bishops and his owne â—…ke he digresseth into a common quarell about diuersitie of fects and heresies which he ascribeth to the Protestants he câ—…eth into Greece Affrica Bohemia Hungarie Lifelande pag. 30 and so commeth home to Englande digressing from the question and issue to English bookes to forbidding of the Bible to be read to the iudgemeÌ„t of Lambert to burning to religious houses Pag. 31. to vowes to repealing lawes to setting forth a newe religion to mariage of Priestes to consecrating â–ª Bishops to the reall presence Pag. 32. Then runneth he to search out discorde in the Protestants and quarelling about wordes in the act and iniunction he maketh an exhortation to returne to the Romaine Church 33. 34. 35. In the aunswere to the Bishops Preface the first whole diuision fo 1. 2. a. b. A loâ—…g impertinent discourse to molliâ—…e master Feckenhams pretence for setting out his booke A number of bie matters falsely charging the Bishop with diuerse impertinent slaunders 2. b. 3. a. Pretending to direct the reader to the question here in trouersie for the nonce he setteth vp a number of newe markes that master Feckenham and the Bishop medleth not withall 3. b. Fol. 4. a. He quarelleth at the Bishop of Sarum for the 600. yeares and the Bishop of Winchester for alleaging testimonies of later yeares calling this vneuen dealing of the Protestants He quarelleth about precise wordes He maketh a new chalenge to the Bishop he chargeth the Bishop of a late bragge none of all these things belonging any whit to the matter 4. b. 5. a. In his first booke A long outrode whether the Bishop were well called by M. Feck the Lorde Bishop of VVinchester or no. 7. a. b. Whether he be Bishop or prelate of the Garter 7. b. succession of Bishops 8. a â–ª against the mariage of Bishops of flesh on Frydayes of a Pigge turned into a Pike That the Protestants be Heretikes euen by the Apologie of England 8. b. An inuectiue against the actes of Parliament of altering religion agaynst the will of the whole clergie that the Bishop can not defende himselfe to bee a Bishop by any lawe of the Realme About the reall presence transubstantiation and adoration 9. a. Deniall of free will the necessitie of baptising children vnlawfull mariage 9. b. A long inuectiue agaynst the disputation at VVestminster Anno. reginae 1. with a number of friuolous excuses whie they shranke from it 12. a. b. 13. a. A long digression almost of 13. leaues togither nothing to the question but discoursing into all countreys Boheme Germanie Denmarke Swethland Brabant Hollande Flaunders Lukelande Englande Fraunce Scotlande Saxonie Hessia VVestphalia besides many townes and Cities chiefly about the businesse in the lowe Countreys to deface the Gospell by the tumults there raysed as the worlde well séeth onely by the practises of the Papists Fol. 33. b. Hauing mentioned the plague he falleth into wicked ghessing that the procedings in that Parliament were the cause of the plague that reigned at London and once againe a â—…ing at the Bishops that they be no Church nor yet Parliament Bishops A long impertinent bibble babble about master Feckenhams ioly disputations begon at London and ended at
wisedom wil not enter into a froward mind And the Bishop here telleth how afterwarde he perceyued the contrary to his former opinion of M. Feckenham declaring how he pointed to his brest saying that was there meaning Poperie that should neuer goe out Thus ye vntruly say the B. sayd that the B. sayd not and then being your owne vntruthe ye skore it vp as his How soeuer by words ye would seem to tender hir Maiesties safetie quietnesse and prosperous raigne your deedes declare your meaning to be quite contrary The. 15. vntruth villanous and slanderous M. Feck by al his deeds hath always shewed himself a most obedient subiect His dysobedience to hir highnesse authoritie herein and the priuie dispersing of his boke to bréede a misseliking as is before shewed is proufe ynough hereof Howebeit this must néedes be a villanous vntruth for no milder terme will serue this gentleman And yet himselfe is farre worsse than M. Feckenham in the same fault as his Common place of slaunders to whom this terme villanous might better agrée doth declare where he neither spareth hir highnesse or cuntrie nor any estate or lawes thereof howe soeuer here he speake of obedience and subiection as thoughe he were as innocent as a lambe How much prosperitie you wishe to hir Maiestie appeareth when with 16. deepe syghes and grones you loke daylie for a chaunge thereof and that 17. arch eheretike of Rome 18. your God in earth 19. to raigne in hir place The. 17. 18. 19. vntruthes diuelishe and spritishe blasphemous horrible and villanous for neyther is the Pope any heretike neyther doe catholikes make him their God neyther wish they him to raigne in the Queenes place that is to saye haue temporall iurisdiction as the Queenes Maiestie hath Here is an heape of sore vntruthes piked out of one poore sentence and yet are al so apparant truthes as al the world may sée them Your grones and sighes for a change not only of the Religion hir Maiestie setteth oute but also of the authoritie that hir highnesse taketh on hir not only the prime whisperings letters tokens and comforting of the Papists in hope of a day that long ere nowe ye looked for doe declare but these your books that ye priuily scatter about and your selfe euen here in this present Chapter doe shewe your good heart saying and for my parte I pray God hartily the triall once would come What cal ye this earnest wish but a sigh and a grone which is in déed as ye terme it both diuelish and spritish but 〈◊〉 hypocritae peribit the hypocrites hope shall perish That the Pope is no heretike ye stoutely affirme but ye cleare him not You say that the Catholikes make him not their God. The Bishop sayd not the catholikes did so but the Papists howebeit ye will haue vs presuppose you be catholikes But catholikes or papists who are they that write Dominus Deus noster Papa our Lorde God the Pope and giue him that honor that is only due to Christ Ye wish him not to raigne in the Queenes place ye saye that is to haue temporall iurisdiction as the Queenes maiestie hath Who made you M. Cotroller to take so vppon you to assigne the Quéenes maiestie hir place which ye make verie straight for hir highnesse to sitte in The better halfe of hir throne your self here yéelde to your Pope that is all hir gouernement ouer spirituall matters and ecclesiasticall iurisdiction leauing hir Maiestie no more roome in hir own seat than ye woulde do any heathen Prince or Turke to haue only temporall iurisdiction in their Realmes But think ye your Pope will be yet content with this hauing gotten the halfe of the place wil he not striue for the whole and thrust the Princes cleane out How serued he the Emperours of Gréece how serued he diuers Germaine Emperours how lerned he King Childerike of France how serued he King Iohn of England sat he not alone in the whole place made he not this realme tributarie to him somuch as in him lay Did he neuer claime the kingdome of Cicile nor the kingdom of Irelande yea doth he not say that al Princes temporal iurisdiction floweth from him and he may depose theÌ„ Did the Pope neuer put off and set on with his foot an emperours diademe Did he neuer himself weare the scepter swoord and robes of an Emperor Did he neuer giue the temporall iurisdiction of this realme to the French and after reuoked the French againe And what doth he nowe Hath he not giuen the temporall iurisdiction and the estate of the crowne and realme to any that can waste spoyle or conquer it saying as though he were Christ Qui potest capere capiat he that can take it take it so that he will become the Popes man for it What is this but to take vpon him to sitte in hir highnesse and in all other Princes places The. 20. 21. 22. vntruthes are none of them so proued as is euidently shewed in the answere to the 4. chap. for that he hath not improued the Bishops definition of a supreme gouernour but rather in matter agréeth therwith and al his examples shew the truth therof Like an vnfaithfull subiect coÌ„trary to that oth c. you helped to spoyle Quene Mary of a principal part of hir royal power right and dignitie The. 23. vntruth slandrous for M. Feck so did not as an vnfaithfull subiect but as a repentant catholike Ye haue well excused him M. Stapleton and he is much beholding to you therfore Where the B. laid to his charge that contrary to his othe made to King Henry he helped to spoyle Queene Mary of hir royall power right and dignitie ye confesse the fact and say he did so but what then he did it say you not as an vnfaithfull subiect but as a repentant catholike Yeare as good a Proctor for your client I sée M. Stapleton as the Proctour that taught his simple client to saye I did so but what then who is his witnesse where no witnesse néeded when the partie had confessed the fact So you Master Stapleton confesse that M. Feckenham periured himselfe to his Prince and that he spoyled hys soueraigne Queene Mary of hir royal power right and dignitie But ye stande in the maner of the doing it whiche is not so much material how he did it as whether he did it or no. And since ye confesse so fréely for him as his proctour that he did so I may tell ye agayn howsoeuer he so did it coulde not be so doone but like an vnfaithfull subiect I had almost sayd worse for any subiect liuing vnder any preâ—…ence to spoyle his Prince of his or hir principall or any part of their royal power right or dignitie Call ye that Catholike repentance that is catholike repentance with al my harte But such catholikes suche repentance And if you do not repent and recant your note of this
Gods name let it there appeare where it is also answered folzâ—… For his 48. and. 49. vntruthes he alleageth no reason nor cause onely he sayth the former is boldely auouched but no way proued and the other somewhat more impudent Since therefore he hath nothing wherein to conuince them I may wel returne his boldnesse and impudencie to him selfe and remitte the tryall of the truthe or vntruthe to the discussing of Iosias ensample Nowe haue you shewed your selfe playnely herein to be a Donatist also The. 50. vntruthe most slaunderous M. Horne and his fellowes are in many poyntes Donatistes as shall appeare The triall of this vntruthe is discoursed at large in the proper place where M. Stapleton citeth it to appeare there shall be heard inough for triall of this chalenge pro contra and as the Reader on the viewe of bothe shall there finde it so on Gods name let him estéeme of it The Donatistes sayde they were of the Catholike fayth of the Catholike Church-which shifte for their defence agaynst Gods truthe the Popishe sectaries do vse in this our time beeing no more of the one or of the other than were the Donatistes and suche like The. 51. vntruthe Answere the Fortresse M. Horne annexed to sainct Bede if ye dare to defende this most sensible and grosse lye Howe happie are you M. Stapleton that euer ye buylt suche a Fortresse that ye thus can crake of so lustily bidde vs come and assayle crying aunswere the Fortresse and come if yee dare and if he come not then he dare not come if he set not on your Fortresse then this must néedes be a lye Muste it nowe truely then youre Fortresse is but a weake Fortresse if the prouing this a lye doe aunswere and ouerturne your Fortresse We néede neuer goe thither for the matter to proue your Church noâ—… the catholike Church nor to haue the catholike fayth this wil be proued in this booke well inough I warrant ye or euer it be ended ye shal sée your self more than once or twice confesse it And diuers other haue at large proued it what néede we then runne to your Fortresse In the next diuision which is the. 19. M. St. gathereth an other vntruthe but before it he setteth downe two marginall notes The first where the Bishop sayd All the sectes of the Donatistes whether they be Gaudentians Petilians Rogatists Papistes or any other sect c. Upon this word Papistes master Stapleton maketh a starre saying You should haue sayd Protestantes who in so many points as hath bene shewed resembled the Donatistes It is well inough M. Sta. and ye can let it stand til time be ye haue vntrussed all those poyntes euen from your own sloppes then ye may go perhaps like Baily hosegodowne The. 2 â–ª note is this Where the Bishop hauing alleaged a long sentence of S. Augustine agaynst M. Feckenham Thus farre S. Augustine sayth he by whose iudgement of the catholike Church c. Note sayth M. Stap. that nowe S. Augustines iudgement is also the iudgement of the catholike Churche To the which note I also adde this note withall M. Stapleton that your Church is not then the Catholiks Church whose iudgement herein agréeth not with Sainct Augustines iudgement Loe M. Stapleton howe pretily yourself begin to aunswere your last vntruth if ye holde on thus we shall not greatly néed to scale your fortresse euen this your CouÌ„terblast will encounter and ouerblowe it After these two notes he setteth downe his vntruth Your errontous opinion The. 52 vntruth M. Feckenham holdeth no such opinion The opinion there mencioned and confuted by S. Augustine is this of the Donatists that the order rule and gouernment practised be the Kinges of the olde Testament in ecclesiasticall causes ar not figures and prophecies of the like gouernment to bee in the kings vnder the newe Testament nor the order that Christ lefte behinde him in his Gospell newe Testament This was the opinion of the Donatistes in Saint Augustines time and this is yours Master Fecknams and Master Dormans opinion nowe that they are not such figures and prophecies and therfore ye confesse your selfe fol. 62. that M. Feckenham omitted the proufes of the olde Testament bycause they made against him Nowe whether this be an erroniouse opinion or no I commit you and Saint Augustine togither to scamble about it The. 53 vntruth Whither S. Augustine haue witnessed no such large and supreame gouernment as we attribute now to Princes yea whither Master Stapleton haue graunted so much or no is proued at large in the. 19. 20. Diuisions Your wilfulnesse is such that you delight only in wrangling against the truth The. 54. vntruth â—…claunderous Then are your selfe this â—…claunderer M. Stapleton that confesse Folio 62. he omitted to shewe forthe the truths of purpose bicause it made agaynst him what is this but wiâ—…full wrangling agaynst the truthe Constantine made many holesome lawes and godly constitutions wherewith he restrayned the people with threates forbidding the sacrificing to Idols to seeke after the diuelishe and superstitious soothsaying to set vp Images The. 55. vntâ—…uthe They were Idols not Images that Constantine forbad his subiects to set vp And in his Counterblast fol. 68. he sayth to say that Constantine forbad to â—…et vp Images is an open and a shamelesse lye What shamelesse outfacing is this The very words euen in the same place and many other of the booke are playne agaynst Images and nameth bothe Idols and Images also as the Bishop dothe Which withal confuteth his subtile distinction betwéene Image and Idoll as though an Image might not be an Idoll also Neither can the distinction serue your turne For Constantine forbiddeth bothe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 As for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your selfe confesse he forbad whether he forbad Images or no these are Eusebius owne wordes in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 2. Euen so Christe our Sauiour confirmed this their authoritie commaunding all men to attribute and giue vnto Cesar that which belongeth vnto him The. 56. vntruthe This place of S. Mathew maketh nothing for the Princes supreme gouernement in ecclesiasticall things It maketh as the Bishop alleaged it to confirme al that authoritie by Christes Gospell that was due before in the time of the olde Testament Which your selfe graunt â–ª but that Princes had supreme authoritie in ecclesiastical things in the time of the olde Testament the Bishop proued before and your selfe also graunted it though ye denied such supreme gouernement as we attribute Therefore this place maketh some thing for Princes supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall things so bewrayeth your owne vntruth and the truth of the Bishop This to be Christes order and meaning that the kings of the nations should be the supreme gouernours ouer their people not onely in temporall but also in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes the blessed
vnderstande it for I thinke ye vnderstoode not the Byshops wordes your selfe which if ye had done ye wold neuer haue quoted it for an vnâ—…th for shame Ye knowe the Byshop before hauing for the vnderstanding of saint Paules wordes for the Princes ministerie alleaged the ensample of Constantine to shewe that his best ministerie consisteth in his carefull zeale direction of Gods glorie and truth and other matters of religion wherein Eusebius commendeth him being a famous ecclestastical writer and allowed amongst you sythe also Nycephorus another your late famous ecclesiasticall writer coÌ„parâ—…th moste expresly herein the Emperour of his time to Constantine the great what vntruth hath the Byshop committed to say For this cause Nycephorus compareth the one to the other for that he did so neerely imitate his duetifulnesse in ruling procuring and reforming religion to the purenesse thereof If Nycephorus haue not thus in these poynts compared them then a Gods name blame the Byshop that sayde for this cause alâ—…o Nicephorus c. but if Nicephorus haue so done then is the Bishop cleâ—…red of this vntruâ—… that said â—…e did so And if ye haue any quarrel to picke go picke it against Nicephorus that so did and not againste the Byshop that only sayde he did so Nowe whither Nicephorus haue done as the Byshop sayde 〈◊〉 did or no let the reader be vâ—…per The words of Nicephorus are long notwithstanding I will set downe some of them writing to the Emperoure he sayth thus Verily one shall suffice me as I mighte â—…aye for all with whome also perchaunce for that kinred and likelyhood whiche is betweene you and him you will gladly suffer your selfe to be compared and is this any other than that ConstaÌ„tine the great valoure and name among all men Constantine whose memorie ought to be as it were a certaine sprite in all menne VVho helped â—…s in oure moste necessitie and so mightely Constantine the greate in suche artes as belong to an Emperour in prudence incomparable but in feruencie towardes God and in great actes atchieued and contentions susteyned for the true godlynesse he is aboue all euen as the Sun is shining aboue the starres And art not thou O most excellent Prince the verie certain image of him here 〈◊〉 noteth in the margent coÌ„paratur c. The Emperor is coÌ„pared to Constantin the great and is conferred with him verily eueÌ„ so doth the glasse render the right shape of the Image as thou expressest the diuine shewe of his mynde and glisterest again being very like vnto him none otherwise than euen the naturall sonne doth represent his father and although I know well thou wilt disalowe my boldnesse which art chiefly wont to auoyde and beware of such prayses notwithstanding I will not doubte to saye this thing whiche I beeseech thee â—…o suffer me and consider my reason sith I chiefly knowe that thou art the sonne of God by grace and the Lords anointed aboue the reste that thou art the Image of him in all poyntes alyke which manifestly hast obtained the very godly form of him and the force and impression eyther of his liuing or imperial substance c. And so he runneth into particular poyntes wherin he compareth them togâ—…ther Is not all this enough master Sta. to proue the Bishops saying true for this cauâ—…e alâ—…o Nicephorus â–ª c. compareth these two Emperours togither but you 〈◊〉 this and shewing no cause in the world why ye chalenge the Bishop therefore runne to an other quarell about the Emperours name bycause the B. sayde as followeth For this cause also Nicephorus in his Preface before his ecclesiasticall hystorie dothe compare Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure to Constantine The. 64. vntruth In putting Emanuel for Andronicus Ye are aunswered to this at large in the replye to your Counterblasting theron What soeuer his name were as it is called in question so the Byshop is cleared thereof following your owne principall auâ—…ors doctors that translâ—…ting and setting out this story named him euen as the 〈◊〉 â—…oth Emanuel Paleologus not once nâ—…r twice neyther â—…s the blinde man castes his â—…affe but as they say theÌ„selues on good considerations among them therevnâ—…o And so rehearsetâ—… his noble vertues The. 65. vntruth For this Emperour wâ—… a starke heretike So say you M. Stapleton and so ye reuile him in your Counterblaste for a wretched heretike also and a wicked dooer But your ecclesiasticall writer Nicephorus saith not so of him he reciteth 〈◊〉 many vertue â–ª and also 〈◊〉 and excellent vertues of this Emperour If he were not suche a one or had not such vâ—…rtues as Nicephorus rehearâ—…eth him to haue what is that to the Byshop who only sayth Nicephorus reciteth his noble vertues And to proue this true the whole preface of Nicephorus is manifest beeing for the most part nothing but the Princes coÌ„mendation of such noble vertues as Nicephorus sheweth he was endewed withall He calleth him principâ—…n omniuÌ„ Christi aâ—…antissimo atque humanissimo qui prorsus omnes virtutes complexus nihil rerum pulcâ—…errimarum excellentissimaâ—…um pretermisisti The Emperor most louing of Christ and most â—…teous who hauing throughly aâ—…tained all vertues haste let slip nothing that is moâ—…e faire and excellent It were tedious to râ—…cite al or the quarter of that he citeth in the prayse of this Emperours vertues The preface throughout is manyfest the Byshops allegations that ye can not denie the comparison aforesaide betweene him and Constantine do declare yea your self confesse that Nicephorus doth highly aduance and exâ—… this Emperour But as Nicephorus saith if wée may beléeue him on his credite beeing called of all your side scriptor per onmia verè catholicus a verye catholike writer in all poynts he flattreth him not nor forgeth but speaketh the truth in praysing of him al which dothe sufficiently acquite the Byshoppe for saying that Nicephorus rehearâ—…eth his noble vertues The Princes supremacie in repairing religion decayed The. 66. vntruth Fonde and foolishe as shall appeare This is onely a marginal note that the Bishop prâ—…fireth to all the allegations that he citeth out of Nicephorus to any one sentence of which allegations M. Stapleton answereth nothing But thus iustleth at the marginall note and sendeth vs to his Counterblaste thereon where it shall appeare how vntrue howe fonde and foolishe it is Which the reader shall iudge when he hath read his Counterblaste the answere thereto That by their rule ministerie and seruice not onely peace and tranquillitie but also godlynesse and religion should be furdered and continued amongst men The. 67. vntruth No such wordes in S. Paule Ye doe the Byshoppe manifest iniury M. Stapleton neyther haue ye any vauntage to pretende any of your former quarels at the printe of the letters it is euident the Byshop setteth not down those words as the bare words of the tâ—…rt of S. Paule whiche he cited the line before adverbum
and with diffinct letter which he doth not here but Paraphrastically expoundeth the texte Wherein if he doe wreste the meaning of saint Paule ye shoulde hardly note that for an vntruthe â–ª S. Paule there nameth not religion that is true but that this worde godlynesse which saint Paule nameth comprehendeth not religion as the Byshop saythe that is your owne vntruthe But this matter is debated more at large in the answere to your Counterblast chap. 18. diuis â–ª 22. where is shewed bothe by the Fathers and by your owne chiefe writers that sainte Paule by this word godlynesse meant true religion Here ye set another blasing starre vpon these words that the Byshop sayth This woulde be noted with good aduisement that Sainte Paule himselfe sheweth playnely prosperitie amongste Gods people and true religion to be the benefites and fruites in generall that by Gods ordinance springeth from the rule and gouernement of Kings and Magistrats vnto the weale of the people This would be noted say you howe ye racke saint Paule he nameth not religion at all he dothe not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrat but peace and tranquillitie only in godlynesse Ye durst not note this for an vntruth M. Stapleton but for a racking or wresting althoughe this is but your peeuish difference If he racke saint Paules meaning he telleth an vntruth of saint Paule although this dothe cleare the B. of racking also that ye durste not playnely note and score it vp for an vntruth yet as the B. saying is most true so it nothing swarueth from the meaning of sainte Paule For aâ—… the B. proueth by Chrysostome that by this worde godlynesse is meant religion and the inwarde peace of the mynde and conscience and not only the outward peace of the body So Saint Paule maketh these to bee the benefites fruites and endes that by Gods ordinaunce wee receyue from the rule and gouernement of kings and magistrates in whiche saying S. Paule is not racked but it is you M. Stapleton that racke Saint Paule â–ª for he sayth not tranquillitie and peace only in godlinesse yâ—… may put your only in your pursse Saint Paule sayth in godlinesse and purenesse The whiche knot and fastening togither of religion and prosperitie incoÌ„mon weales the most Christian and godly Emperours Theodosius Ualentinianus did wisely foresee The. 68. vntruthe They sawe no suche confounding of the two functions spirituall and temporall as you imagine This vntruth is directed against the Byshops imagination ye go verie neare the B. M. Stapleton that where hée sayth no suche wordes as you chalenge ye will créepe into his heart and fetche iâ—… from thence ye haue a goodeye sighte that can see what the B. imagineth But wisdome wil think this to bée a fonde toy of your own idle imagination for the Byshops words import no such confusion as ye talke of hée telleth howe godlynesse and prosperiâ—…e are lincked togither in common weales so that the one cannot be well without the other that the Prince is the knitting togither of both these and this he saythe the Emperours sawe and that they sawâ—… it he bringeth good proufe theire own manifest words set downe at large eyther proue this an vntruth M. Sta. or else the B. hath made nene it is but your vntrue sclaunder fonde imagination I haue proued c. That such like gouernment in Churche causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir dothe of duetie belong vnto ciuill magistrates The. 69. vntruth Such like gouernement you haue not nor euer shall be able to proue The B. saith that in this first booke he hath hitherto proued it by the scriptures the Doctours and some Emperoures This you denie that he hath done and set him a long day to proue it Nowe the truth or vntruth of this the reader must hang in suspence til be haue read the prâ—…s ouer what they bee and then in the name of God lette himiudge whether the vntruthe lyghte on the Byshoppe or on Master Stapleton In the meane season â—…ytherto the Reader maye haue a taste what shame is in this impudent mannes â—…ace what truthe in his cause and what folly in hâ—…s heade thus to the wide worlde to score and sette out suche thinges for vntruthes as beeing neuer so little rypped vp are moste apparante truthes and to make suche a tryumphante gambolde and pyping vp of a round as hee doth thereon But leâ—…te hym daunce his â—…yll and nicke vp still on the score in the ende hée will runne so farre in the lashe that no man will credite a worde of his mouthe MeÌ„daci non crâ—…ditur ne iurato quidem A lyer is not beleeued no thoughe he svveare ⧠To Master Stapletons first Preface OR euer Master Stap â–ª enter into his counterblast he prefixeth two Prefaces the first to the B. the second to the Reader The first bicause it is only a packet trussed vp of all such accusations as he layeth to the Bishops charge through out his whole counterblast and so is to be aunswered in their proper places I minde not therefore to follow Master Stapletons vaine that saith Decies repeâ—…ta placebunt to spende the time and trouble the Reader more than néedes in answering to them here that are to be answered in their places seuerally and are already many of them noted before in his Common places The effect and conclusion of this preface in the ende is this That the Bishop must néedes make a full reioynder A full reioynder I say saith he and perfect to all and euery parte of this reply and put in Master Stapletonâ—… whole answere not omitting any one line or sentence either of the text or of the margine or els the truth is not on the Bishops side or els he waÌ„teth learnyng or els he buildeth on no good fundation nor the cause he groundeth on is sure or els all men vvill laugh him to scorne for his faire piece of vvorke so shamefully broken of or els M. Feckenhams scruples are most learned and inuincible reasons or els the othe can not be takeÌ„ with out manifest periurie or els Master Horne must retract his most haighnouse heresies or els which I should haue set before all that the B. hath saide is but vvoordes of course to saue his poore honestie and but waltham talke or els as he obiecteth foolishnesse to the B. so M. Stapleton may proue as wise as walthams calfe and thus as he saith to the B. for this time I take my leaue of you Vale resipisce so may I for this your first Preface take my leaue of you Master Stapleton Uale sape ⧠To Master Stapletons seconde Preface THe seconde Preface is directed to the Reader and is coÌ„triued in thrée partes The first sheweth the reasons why he tooke vppon him to answere the Bishop The second how by what order he procéedeth in his answere The thirde is an earnest admonition
replie vvill declare Hovv vvell so euer he hath played his partes full ilfauoredly you begin to plaie yours M. Stap. thus to wrangle about the partes of opponent and answerer The B. playeth not the opponent but you playe the Marchant The B. not in playe but in truth good earnest as M. Feckenham pretendeth to 〈◊〉 requireth to be satisfied answereth to his requestes by the foresayde proues that here ye confesse he bringeth forth The partie opponent as in the other scruples still is M. Feckenham But be he opponent or defendaÌ„t as either of theÌ„ in respects may be either if he bring those proues that ye graunt he doth ye haue litle occasioÌ„ to make a playe scoffe at the matter Neither doth this blemish the truth froÌ„ whom he had it wher with ye would séeme as it were with an awke blowe to foyle the B. learning that he founde out these prooues not all by his owne studie but by the helpe of his friends Which as you M. Stapleton for your owne parte were faine to confesse right now so is there no cause ye should measure the Bishops knowledge by your owne defecte But herein ye do but as the residue do this is the fashioÌ„ of all your coÌ„péeres Where truth faileth you â–ª at the least to winne a credite of learning to your selues like prowde Pharisies ye dispise al other besides your selues To which purpose as M. Stapl. would staine the Bishops godly and learned labour herein at the least that all might not séeme to be his owne but gathered by others to his hands so in the telling of his owne well ordered péece of worke he setteth out euery point to the vttermost to coÌ„mende the better vnto vs his great learning industrie and perspicuitie He telleth vs solemnly how to the first parte he replieth in three bookes how he hath deuided eche booke into seuerall chapters what he hath noted at the toppe of eche page But he telleth not what common places he hath set out in eche line He telleth how he hath exceedingly lightned the matter and what recapitulations he hath made thereof To the second parte he telleth vs it shall appeare but when he telleth vs not both what strong and inuincible arguments M. Feknam right learnedly proposed as most iuste causes of his said refusall And also vvhat â—…ely shiftes and miserable escapes M. Horne hath deuised to maynteine that obstinately vvhich he once conceaued erroneously And thus forsoothe nothing to the prayse and setting forth of him selfe M. Feckenham nor to the blemishing of his aduersarie hath M. Stapleton deuided the content of the Bishops answere and his counterblast thereto Now thinking with this preiudice of both their labours he hath sufficiently affectionate the Reader to his partie thirdly he entreth into a generall fore warning of him the effect whereof is to forsake this religion which he beginneth with this earnest adiuring of him Novv good Reader saith Master Stapleton as thou tendrest thine owne saluation â–ª and hopest to be a saued soule in the ioyful and euerlasting blisse of heauen so consider and vveigh vvith thy selfe the importaunce of this matter in hande What hope of saluation M. St. can the Popish doctrine bréede that alwayes doubteth as much of damnation as it hopeth of saluation haÌ„geth wauering betwene dispayre hope admitting no certentie of faith or trust to grouÌ„de vpoÌ„ The attenâ—…ion that ye desire in the Reader we as earnestly desire the same also neither that he come to reade attentiuely with any preiudicate opinion on either parte as you would haue his minde foresâ—…alled on your side but euen with indifferencie as he shall finde the matter in hande to leade him so to weigh and consider the importance thereof euen as he tendreth and verely hopeth his ovvne saluation And as the Reader shall do this for his parte so let vs sée how you do for yours and of what great importance your arguments are to sturre vp this earnest attention in the Reader The first argument that ye make is this First vvithout authoritie is no religion Then if this Religion vvhereby thou hopest to be saued haue no authoritie to grounde it selfe vppon vvhat hope of saluation remayning in this religion canst thou receyue Now as though the Maior were in controuersie and the pointe we sticke vpon he first solemnely strengthneth it with the authoritie of S. Augustine For no true religion saith S. Augustine can by any meanes be receaued vvithout some vvaightie force of authoritie As for the Minor which determineth nothing but hanging on a conditionall pinne maketh no directe conclusion too or fro We graunt him that iâ—… our religion haue no authoritie no hope of saluation can be grounded thereon But then he replieth If it haue any authoritie it hath the authoritie of the Prince by vvhose supreme gouerment it is enacted erected and forced vpon thee other authoritie hath it none Ergo For want of sufficient good authoritie it is no true Religion Ye desired right now M. St. euen as the Reader tendreth his ovvne saluation to consider and vveighe vvith him self the importance of this matter And is this all the importance of your first argument against our Religion that the Reader should weigh coÌ„sider so déepely What is here alleaged besides a bolde and manifest slaunder forced vpon the Reader by the authoritie onely of your bare woorde Which the more the Reader shall consider and especially thus your beginning for an handsell of good lucke to the residue he shall the better perceaue the falshood and impudencie of your whole cause dealing For to set one If against another If the reader better coÌ„sidering weighing with himself shal finde this religioÌ„ not to be of so late enacting erecting forcing but enacted erected and forced of God in his holy woorde shall not this coÌ„sideration detect you to be a malicious slauÌ„derer if the reader with al shall vveigh the peise of your argument that the Prince hath a supreme gouernment in all Ecclesiasticall causes Ergo the Religion that the Prince sets forth hath noâ—…e other authoritie but of him shal be not finde it like the father of it as light as a thing of nought But exhorting the Reader to vveigh and consider the matter not considering nor vveighing what ye say your selfe ye blunder on in your Ifs and say If then that supreme gouernment that hauing none other authoritie enacteth erecteth and forceth a Religion vpon thée be not due to the laie Prince but to the spirituall Magistrate and to one chiefe Magistrate among the vvhole spiritualtie thou â—…eest thy ReligioÌ„ is but a bare name of religion and no religion in deede Here whether he be ashamed to set it downe or thinketh it so cléere it néedeth not recital but is inferred of the Maior he leaueth out the Minor of his argumeÌ„t But that supreme gouernment is due to one chiefe spirituall magistrate only and to
ye can be no Prelate of the Garter beeing no Prelate at all that beeing a prerogatiue appropriate to the Prelate and B. of VVinchester Soft M. St. if ye be so playne blunt a man as ye pretrÌ„d ne sutor vltra crepâ—…da hew not tâ—… hye least chips fall in your eye blunder not so rudely with princes must the Q. Maiestie beare with you to bicause you must needs go bluntly to worke ye presume to determine what the Q. highnes may do She can make him â—… but she can not make him L. B. of VV. And why so M. St considering he is not Lorde but in respecte of some baronage and temporalties belonging and annexed to the See of VVinchester Ergâ—… then ye graunt him to be Lorde B. by your owne words to whom the Q. highnesse as you graunt she may in respect of the temporalties and baronies belonging therto hath graunted and giuen him them Wherby she hath made him Lord except ye wil denie that hir highnesse authoritie which euen al your popish bishops did receiue before at hir graces progenitors hands neither the baronies and temporalties onely wheâ—…by they were named Lords but their inuestiture also wherby they were Byshops at the Princes handes But see stil how bluntly ye go to worke against your self for hast to remoue this title of Lord from the B. of W. ye ouerturn the glory of your own prelats For if this your rule be true that he is not called Lord but in respect of some baronies temporalties belonging and annexed to the See how many Cardinals Bishops Suffraganes Abbots Priors euen in Italie that haue neither baronies nor muche temporalties should léese their title of Lorde honour thinke you all these will be pleased with this your rule We must beare with you there is no remedie and well may M. Feck of friendship the B. of pitie beare with you also the Quéenes maiestie of hir gracious clemencie beareth with your saucie bluntnesse But assure your selfe and ye were as blunt playne as euer were your Marcolphus those Italian prelates if ye stayne their honour will neuer beare with you one iot And I rede you beware this bluntnesse for they can do much with your holy father the Pope except ye be so blunt ye care not for him neither But deale with them as ye may ye are blunt inoughe in your owne conceite for the finest of them all Let vs sée what reasons moueth you to be so blunt with the B. He is not L. Byshop of VVin. nor Prelate of the Garter Why so bicause he is no B. or Prelate at all How proue ye that he is an vsurper he is an intruder he is called therto by no lawfull vocation nor canonicall consecration c. he is no true B. c. his vocation is direct contrarie to the canons and constitutions of the Churche and to the vniuersall custome and maner heretofore vsed and practised not onely in Englande but also in all other Catholike countreys and Churches deliuered to vs from hande to hande from age to age euen from the first graâ—…fing and planting of the fayth especially in Englande Here are many blunt playne words in déede M. St. and many great crakes but here is no proofe of any do not think ye muste still be thus borne withall your to muche presuming of eche mans pacience to beare with your rudenesse will hazarde your credite to farre excepte ye alledge some reason of your sayings Let vs heare therefore what proues ye bring For the which I referre me say you to all autentike and auncient â–ª recordes as well of Englande as of other Nations concerning the ordinary succession of Bishops namely in the foresayde Sea of VVinchester for there was not no not one in that Sea that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome and that was not confirmed by the same vntil the late time of M. Poynet who otherwise also was an vsurper the true B. then liuing and by no lawfull or ecclesiasticall order remoued or depriued Ye are therefore the first B. of this sewt and race and so consequently no B. at al. As not able to shew to whom ye did ordinarily succede and any good or customable either vocation or coÌ„secration VVhich point being necessarily required in a B. and in your Apostles Luther and Caluin other lacking as I haue otherwhere sufficieÌ„tly proued though you by depesilence thinke it more wisdome vtterly to desâ—…emble than once to answere they being therwith pressed were so messhed and bewrapped therein that they coulde not in this worlde witte what to say thereto answearing this and that they wiste neare what nor at what poynt to holde them yea Beza was fayne at the last assemblie at Poysie with silence to confesse the inuincible truth Setting aside these vaine crakes manifest lying slaunders which I referre to your common places M. St. I will answeare onely to your inuincible argument Which standeth vpon your common bragge of succession Your argument is this ye succeede no Bishop of VVinchester Ergo ye are no Bishop of VVincester I answere First if he meane succession of the person in the roome your antecedent is euident false He succeded the persons of Popishe Bishops in the same roome And the consequent followeth not For then the first Bishop of that Sea was no B. bicause he succeded none but was the first therâ—…f And if the first was none then the second was none and so there was neuer any at all If ye meane sucession of the doctrine and the Apostles rules then neyther Bishoppe Gardiner whom ye call the true B. nor any popishe Bishops haue succession but digression and defection from them And our Bishoppes haue the true succession that is to say followe the doctrine and orders of the Apostles prescribed in the worde of god for a Bishops office But howe do ye proue your antecedent Of all the Bishops not onely in Englande but in other nations namely in the Sea of VVinchester From hand to hand from age to age euen from the first grafting and planting of the fayth in Englande not one of them all no not one that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the sea of Rome and that was not confirmed by the same But you do not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor are confirmed by the same Ergo ye are the first Bishop of this sewt and race and so consequently no bishop at all as not able to shew to whome ye did ordinarily succeede or any good and customable eyther vocation or consecration This argument M. Stapleton is of a newe sewt and race it succedeth neither good nor customable moode or figure and therfore can make no good successe Howbeit lâ—…t vs sée the partes of it The minor we graunt as euident on the Bishops part For the maior we must put you to your proufe We affirme it to conteyne many euident falshoodes For proufe hereof
sticke at that ye will not sticke and make that false that ye graunt true or else ye proue master Feck not to be ignorant contrarie to his defence and all the rest of your owne défence of him as we shall sée your wordes afterwarde In the meane time let vs sée howe pretily ye shift off the matter onely bicause the Bishop names Tho. of Aquine a schole Papist for the diuision of Ignoraunce thinking ye haue gotten a wonderfull aduauntage thereby for the Popes supremacie But nowe sayth M. Stap. the verye authour brought forth by master Horne so fullie and effectually dischargeth M. Feck of all three and chargeth M. Horne with the worst of them three that is wilfulnesse and malice as he shal winne small worship by alleaging of S. Thomas For S. Tho. sayeth plainely that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the onely supreme heade of the whole Church Nowe fearing as not without good cause that the B. would in this matter reiect the authoritie of this Thomas whom our Thomas calleth a late latine writer and to much affectionate to the Pope as it were by preuention He can not well reiect his authoritie sayeth he vsing it him selfe And why so Sir I pray you must euery one that citeth him in any one poynt receyue and admit his authoritie to in euerie poynt Is it lawfull for the Sorbonistes the Scholemen and the whole rabble of the Papistes yea for Thomas Stapleton him selfe to accept Thomas of Aquines authoritie in some poyntes and to reiect his authoritie in other some poyntes and is it not lawfull for the Bishop or anye other to vse the same libertie The Sorbonistes affirme of this Thomas Illa doctrina non potest esse in omnibus sic approbata c. That doctrine can not in all thinges be so approued that conteyneth many thinges erronious in fayth but as they say the foresayde doctrine of Saint Thomas not onelye in the matter of the absolute necessitie of a creature c. but also in manye other thinges conteyneth manye matters erronious in fayth And againe Non oportet credere c. VVee muste not beleeue that the doctrine it selfe is in no parte thereof erronious or hereticall wherein are conteyned manye contrarieties and repugnancies yea euen in the matter perteyning to the sayth â–ª but manye suche contrarieties and repugnancies are conteyned in the doctrine of Saynt Thomas Agayne 〈◊〉 dicunt aliqui c. And some saye for thys that manye maye denye the glosses of the decrees and Decreâ—… when the glosse doeth openlye denye the texte and lykewyse some saye of the ordinarye glosses of the Byble that notwithstanding seeme to bee of greater authoritie when they are alleaged for authoritie than is the Doctryne of Saint Thomas The sixte example maye bee giuen of certayne Doctours whiche are not canonized Saintes as the venerable Anselme Byshoppe of Cant. Hughe of Saint Victor and certayne other whose sayinges or wrytinges are in certayne poyntes founde erronious and yet theyr doctrine seemeth to bee no lesse authenticall than the doctrine of Saint Thomas sithe they are of the skilfull in their scolasticall actes alleaged for authoritie nor are wonted to bee denyed but their sayinges reuerently to be glosed and expounded whiche notwythstanding the Schoolemen are not woont to doe on the sayinges of Saint Thomas and therefore it seemeth presumptuous so to extoll hys Doctrine ouer them and other Doctours that wee maye not beleeue and affirme that hee erred in fayth euen as other also haue erred And after this as likewise before reckoning vp diuerse errours these spéeches are common Ista locutio est de virtute sermonis falsa multum impropria c. This speech in the force of the wordes is false and verie improper Ista doctrina multos errores continet c. This Doctrine conteyneth manie errours Uidetur multipliciter erroneum c. It seemeth diuerse wayes erroneous Deficit in multis c. If fayles in many poyntes Non est verum c. It is not true Et breuiter haec alia multa erronea falsa impropriè dicta videÌ„tur multis in praedicta doctrina contineri quae tamen ex taediâ—… pertransimus And briefly these and many other erronious false improper sayings seeme to many to be conteyned in the foresaide doctrine the which notwithstanding we ouerpasse for tediousnesse And from hence they discend to manifest errours in diuinitie And in conclusion write thus of him They say also that in verie many places of his doctrine he erred by reason of this that he applied to much the principles of philosophie or rather certaine wordes of Philosophers to the conclusions of Diuinitie Thus say the great Censors of the Popish doctrine agaynst Thomas of Aquine so well they agrée togither in vnitie of doctrine obiecting discorde vnto vs Yea the whole swarme of Papists not excepting our Thom. St. here him selfe vnlesse he be returned to the truth since he wrote his booke reiecteth and condemneth Thom â–ª of Aquines iudgement and authoritie in one of the most necessarie matters of Christian religion namely the doctrine of iustification For expounding this sentence of S. Paule Arbitramur hemâ—…neÌ„ iustificari absque operibus legis Arbitramur enim nos c. For we being taught of Christ thinke sayth Thomas according to the truth of the Apostle that euerie man whether he be Iewe or Gentile is iustified by faith Actes 15. By fayth purifying their hearts that without the workes of the law and that not onely without the ceremoniall works which did not giue grace but also without the works of the moral commandements according to that saying to Titus 3. Not of the works of the righteousnes that we haue wrought The reason is presumed that we are saued for our merits the which he excludeth when he sayth not of the works of the righteousnesse which we haue done But the true reason is the onely mercy of god There is not therefore in them the hope of iustification sed in sola fide but in fayth alone VVorkes are not the cause that any bodie is iust before God but they are rather executions and the manifestings of righteousnesse Where Tho. of Aquine thus according to Gods worde speaketh the truth as in this poynt here of iustification the Bishop and all other faythfull receyue his iudgement and admit the same with better reason than the Papists reiect it But where as in many other poyntes he swarueth from the truth though the Papists saint him neuer so much yet there all true saintes with good reason refuse him As in this that master Stapleton citeth out of him who confesseth him selfe that Thomas being a late latine writer wrote partiallye in this poynte bycause hée was to muche affectioned to the Pope and shall we beléeue such an affectionate wryter in hys partiall affection Or shall we beléeue master Stapleton no
religion Secondly that they ought to doe this with an especiall regards and care Thirdely they perceyue and rightly vnderstande that it is Gods will they shoulde so doe Now since that this by master Stapletons déepe silence is agréed vpon betwixt the Bishop and him I make hereon this argument To order and set forth Gods true religion with especiall regarde and care is the Princes duetie But the only sort of gouernment that the Quéenes Maiestie doth chalenge and take vpon hiâ—… in ecclesiasticall causes is to order and set forth Gods true Religion with an especiall regarde and care Ergo Prinâ—… ought to take vpon them such gouernment as the Quéenes Maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes And thus is the Bishops antecedent directly proued and so consequently the principall matter of M. Feck issue Nowe as the former part being the generall assertion to all the ensamples following is no whitte impeached by any aunswere of master Stap. to it but by silence whiche with him is an argument of confession graunted so like a very Counterblaster in déed he blusâ—…reth and puffeth at the seconde part as though he would all to blast it Moses sayth the Bishop was supreme gouernour ouer Gods people and was not chief priest or Bishop for that was Aaron Here master Stapleton denyeth not Moses to be the supreme gouernour but that he was not chiefe priest or Bishop he vtterly gainsayeth it It is an vntruth sayth he in his score for Moses was the chiefe priest as shall be prooued Here is a flat promise of proufe but I feare me it wil neuer be perfourmed neyther doth master Stapleton here go about the perfourmance of it And therefore the Bishops denial of Moses to be the chiefe Priest must stand for a truth till by prouing Moses to be the chiefe Priest he haue proued it to be an vntruth And in the meane time his promise must stande but for a crake as also his prowde entraâ—…nte into his Chapter That the Scripture by the Bishop alleaged reacheth nothing home but rather infringeth and plainely marreth the Bishoppes purpose and fullye standeth on our syde sayeth this student so greatly hath arrogancie sotted him He fareth as did the Souldiour who when his aduersarie had manye tymes in wrastling hurled him downe in the sighte of euerie stander by yet woulde hée neuer confesse that hée had anye fall yea most arrogantlye â–ª he styll affyrmed that hée had â—…ast the other And euen so playeth this student for this of wrastling is one of his common similitudes he contendeth to wrastle with the Bishoppe whiche is in verys déede as hée sayeth in this Chapter Impar congressus Achâ—…lls Troilus An vneuen matche betweene Troylus and Achilles What a number of â—…oule falles hée hath had yea howe hée hath béene ouerturned in hys â—…wne trippes is apparaunt to euery Readers eyes and goe no further but euen to hys last Chapter And yet sée howe hée craketh that all the Byshoppes allegations marre hys owne cause and fully stande on hys syde Where contraryewyse they haue drie beaten him backe bellie side and all And as hée thus fondely maketh vaunt of his former victorie â—…o I doubt nothing sayth he it will fare with his examples Well sayd of a student like an other Gawin he doubteth nothing But sée a sodaine qualme of hys inconstancie for euen streyght wayes after he hath cryed out all comes to shorâ—… he sayth but here am I shrewedly â—…ncombred and in a great doubt what to doe Whie master Stapleton are ye now so soone in a great doubt and right nowe as doeth bolde Bayarde doubted nothing and haue before alreadie without any stammering thereat clapped downe your marginall note for a full resolute aunswere that Moyses was the chiefe Priest and nowe doubt ye what to answere But master Stapleton hath so many weapons that he is shrewdly encombred with them as it were another armed Golias and yet one smal poebble stone will soone ease him of this encombrance He telles vs he hath so many aunsweres that he doubteth with which he should beginne for I could sayth he make a short but a true aunswere that these ensamples are fully aunswered alreadie by master D. Harding and master Dorman In déede master Stapleton this were a short aunswers but I sée your selfe feare as ye sayde before it woulde come to short and not reache home to the matter Yet say you if ye shoulde referre the Reader thither to his and your great ease it should be to the sparing not only of penne ynke and paper but of the time also which of all thinges is most precious It séemeth master Stapleton ye are a man of déepe casting these are good considerations of penne ynke paper and tyme. But whie followe ye not your owne councell whiche if ye had obserued and left out so many impertinent vagaries and other your trifling common places ye had saued more paper penne ynke and tyme by thrée halues than ye haue done And here as séeming full resolued to follow this aduise ye clappe downe another marginall note All master Hornes examples out of the olde Testament aunswered alreadie by master Doctour Harding and master Dorman Here sayth he is a shorte but a true aunswere To this shorte aunswere I aunswere againe All M. Doctor Hardings and M. Dormans answeres confuted alreadie by the B of Sarum and M. Nowell Here is another as short an answere as yours M. Stap. and a great deale truer whiche I remitte to the indifferent viewers of both their answeres Nowe might we both rest and breath vs from further answering of these ensamples and spare penue ynke paper and time also that he séemeth to accompt most precious But another thing was more precious vnto him and that was master Feckenhams hyre and his friendes largesse for so much Paper penne ynke and time spent about his booke and the gaine of the printed copies which the bigger volume it came vnto for he woulde not séeme a thréehalfepennie student the fatter exhibition it should yéelde and he séeme the greater clerke yea to go beyonde his masters And therefore there is no remedie he will spare neyther penne ynke paper time nor paynes also but that his Counterblast shall be blowne vp to so large and full a volume that it may encounter euen the best of theirs To whose answeres if he shoulde referre himselfe and saye no more thereto Then I feare me sayth he woulde steppe forth if not master Horne a good simple plaine man in his dealings yet some other ioly fine freshe pregnant wittie fellowe yea and bring me to the streightes which way so euer I did treade You are loath I perceiue master Stapleton to be brought into the streight way to treade aright therein for then your wrie treading woulde soone be espied But ye séeke crookes and shifting answeres for the nonce And lyke the vayne talkatiue Arrian Philosopher ye dispise the right reuerende and learned father calling
ecclesiastical liuings titles were any Byshop or any member of Christs Church or no euen by your ecclesiastical Canons of which one beginneth NoÌ„ omneâ—… episcopi sunt episcopi al Byshops are not Bishops c. 2. Q 7. Likewise Bernard the Canonist saith Spiritualis gladius ex leui causa non tantum per alios c. the spirituall Sworde mouing and nourishing warres of a light cause not only by other but also by it selfe contrary to right is become a souldiers Sword. Erasmus saith the Popes them selues are rather the successors of such as Iulius Caesar of Alexander Xerxes Croesus and of mightie theeues than the Apostles successors And that there are none so pernicious enemies to the Churche as the wicked Popes that suffer in silence Christe to growe out of knowledge and tie him to gainefull lawes and deflowre him with wrested interpretations and murder him with their pestilent life Call ye these spirituall byshops or rather as Christ said théeues and robbers painted sepulchers rauening wolues or as he called Iudas the Deuill him selfe For why beeing thus degenerate from the office of a Bishop should they haue the name of bishops as their owne law saith Si repriueris nec nomeÌ„ habere mereris It thou want the thing â–ª thou deseruest not the name And as Christe him selfe doth say If the salte haue lost his saltnesse what shal be seasoned therwith it is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out to be troden downe of men These are the spirituall Pastors of the popish Church yeathe Popes them selues being worsse than lay men and yet will be Lordes of all ecclesiasticall liuings lay mens liuings too But I will reserue this matter till ye be disposed to commune furder thereon for they touch néerer the ouerthrows of your Popes claime more decipher the hauiour of his Clergie than they come néere the issue of the Princes gouernment The sixte marke that ye set vp is this VVhat good induction can ye bring from the doings of the Kinges of the old lawe to iustifie that Princes now may make Bishops by letters Patents and that for such and so long time as should please them as either for terme of yeres monethes weekes or dayes What an impudent and too too shamefull a sclaunderer you may be marked to be appeareth by this marke M. St. If Bishops haue their letters patents from the Prince for their Bishoprike had they them not also froÌ„ Princes euen in the most popishe time but that they are made for suche termes as ye write you wilfully belie your Soueraigne The Prince in deede at all times if they do not their dutie and so shal be thought vnworthie may orderly remoue inhibite or punish them And of this the Bishop hath alleaged good proofe in the old Testament And yet if there were no proofe of it there what matter can ye make thereon that your Popes did not practise who licenced deposed restrayned limited and that for such and so long time as should please them As Florobellus saithe of the Pope Item facere potest Praelatum ad tempus He can also make a Prelate for a time And can ye finde such bulles of leade from the doings of the high Priest of the olde lawe If ye can not this marke ouerturnes your Popes supremacie more than it commeth any thing nere the Quéenes The Seuenth marke VVhat good motiue can ye gather by their regiment that they did visit Bishops and Priestes and by their lawes restrayned them to excercise any iurisdiction ouer their flockes to visit their slockes to reforme them to order or correct them without their especiall authoritie and commission thereunto yea to restrayne them by an inhibition from preaching which yee confesâ—…e to be the peculiar function of the Clergie exempted from all superioritie of the Prince This marke hath two partes For the former so farre as ye say true the Bishop hath gathered good motiues by their regiment that they did visite Bishops and Priestes and by their lawes restrained them to exercise any iurisdiction ouer their flockes to visit their flockes to refourme to order and correct them without their especiall commission therevnto for what else was their ordeyning and allowing them their commaunding ordering appointing and directing them Except ye meane hereby for ye spâ—…ake it very subtlely that the Bishops could do none of those functions that belonged to their office after they were appointed therto by the Prince but that for euery thing they must haue a speciall commission and than it is a captiouse sclaunder the Prince doth not so But what belongeth to the Prince herein and what to the Bishop in either of their Iurisdictions is to be considered in the fourth booke Sauing that still ye will augmeÌ„t your counterblast by the way of preuention Your other parte of this marke is a manifest sclaunder The Prince restrayneth no Bishop nor preacher with any simple inhibition from his office of preaching but Secundum quid inhibiting your popish seducers from preaching their traditions and erroneous doctrines such false Prophetes as Christ biddeth vs beware of If ye would preach the onely truthe ye might haue good leaue to preache it Now to stoppe the mouthes of false Idolatrouse Priestes the Bishop in these examples hath brought good proofe hereof no preaching is simplie forbidden but Papistes sectaries and other of noughtie or suspected life or doctrine and therefore where in the margine ye biddâ—… your reader Note here is nothing for him to note but your notorieâ—…se lie and your notable argument that ye make thereon Preaching is the peculiar function of the Clergie exempted from the Prince Ergo The Prince hath not authoritie to restrayne a noughtie preacher nor to inhibite him from preaching false doctrine Proue your argument a little better M. Stapleton and then bidde vs note it els is there litle to note in it but much to note in you For your Eight marke say you VVhat thinke ye that ye can persuade vs also that Bishops and Priestes payed their first fruites and tenthes to their Princes yea and that both in one yeare as they did for a while in Kinge Henries dayes Verely Ioseph would not suffer the very heathen Priests which onely had the bare names of Priests to paie either tythes or fines to Pharao their Prince yea rather he founde them in time of famine vppon the common store This marke Master Stapleten of paying first fruites and tenthes to the Prince is bothe wide from the Bishops marke and mere frinolouse For supposing they payde none yet this supreme gouernement still remayned entiere and whole to the Prince nor the paying it to the Prince maketh him supreme gouernour any whitte the more It was an order taken ye know in the time of your Popes superstition and that not long since neither vnder pretence of helping the Church in hir warres against the Saracens but in very déede
both the Scripture S. Hierome maketh no differeÌ„ce but only the custome institution of the Church The Apostle saith he writing to the Philippenses cap. 1. saith With the Bishops and the Deacons by them vnderstanding the Elders sith in one citie as in Philippos many Bishops ought not to be Agayne Act. 2. he saith Looke to your selues and to all the flocke in which the holy ghost hath placed you to be Bishops And he spoke vnto them of the onely citie of Ephesus But this appeareth more expresly to Titus the. 1. Where he saith for this cause I haue left thee at Crete that thou shouldest correct those things that want ordeine Elders through out the cities eueÌ„ as I haue apointed to thee if any be blamelesse the husbaÌ„d of one wife And streight he setteth vnder it a B. must be blamelesse And whoÌ„ before he named an Elder he calleth now a Bishop And in the. 4. of the. 1. to Timothie Dispise not saith he the grace of God which is giuen to thee through the imposition of the handes of an Elder that is to say of a Bishop S. Paule called him selfe an Elder when he was the Bishop that ordeined him Thus far more at large DuraÌ„dus concluding at leÌ„gth Sic ergo Thus therfore saith S. Hierome that a Bishop and an Elder Olim fueruÌ„t nominâ—… synonymâ—… c. were in the old time diuerse names betokening one thing indiffereÌ„tly and also of one administration â–ª bicause the Churches were ruled by the commune Counsell of the Priestes But for the remedie of a scisme least each one drawing the Churche after him should breake hir it was ordeyned that one should be aboue the rest et quâ—…ad nomeÌ„ c. And so far forth as stretcheth to the name that he onely should be called Bishop and that so farre as stretcheth to the administration of some Sacraments and Sacramentals they should be reserued to him by the custome coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of the Church And this would Hierome expresly 93. Dist. cap. legimuâ—… in Esa. super epistolam ad Tit. recitatur Dist. 93. cap. Olim presbyterâ—… c. Consuetudo aut institutio Ecclesiae potest dare Iurisdictiâ—…nem sed non potestatem ordinis aut consecrationis quare c. He therefore that counteth this erroneouse or perilous let him impute this to Hierome out of whose saying in the fore alleaged chapter Legimus in Esa. the foresaide authorities are takeÌ„ VVhere also he putteth an exaÌ„ple That it is of a Bishop in respect of priests as of an Archdeacon in respect of Deacons vnlesse the Deacons choose one among them selues whom they call Archdeacon c. In the end DuraÌ„dus recoÌ„ciling Hierome saith and the authorities alleaged by Hierome withstande it not bicause according the name and the truth of the thing euery Bishop is an Elder and on the other parte so farre as stretcheth to the name euery Elder hauing cure may be called a Bishop as superattendent on other although the consecratioÌ„ of a Bishop or of the chiefe Priest be larger than of a simple Priest or Elder but peraduenture in the pâ—…imitiue Churche they made not such force in the difference of names as they do now And therfore they called a Bishop euery one that had a cure Thus writeth Durandus of the auncient Fathers opinions And will ye compt him or them Aerians too And this also doth your institution in Coâ—…aine Councell confesse N on est tamen putandum VVe must not for all this thinke that he ordeined Bishops another order from Priests for in the Primitiue church Bishops and Priests were all one The which the Epistles of Peter and Paule the Apostles S. Hierome alâ—…o and almost all the auÌ„cient ecclesiastical writers do witnesse And chiefly that place of the first Epistle of S. Peter the â—…ist chapter is euident to declare this For when Peter had said The Elders that are amoÌ„g you I also an Elder with you beseech which am also a witnesse of the passions of Christ and paâ—…taker of the glory to come that shal be reuealed He ioyned vnder it Feede or guide the slocke of Christ that is among you and ouersee it not by compulsion but willingly according to god VVherein it is spokeÌ„ more expresly in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say Superattendent from whence also the name of Bishop is drawne VVherefore Priesthood is esteemed the highest order in the Churche In the meane time no bodie is ignorant that this order is distinguished againe by a certayne order of offices and dignities Thus do your Schoolemen and Diuines witnesse First that in the Substance Order or Character as they terme it there is no difference betweene a Priest and a Bishop Secondly that the difference is but of Accidents and circumstances as degrées of dignitie Iurisdiction Honour c. Thirdly that in the Primitiue Church this difference was not knowne but they were méerely all one and the same Fourthly that this difference was taken vp by custome consent and ordinance of the Uniuersall Church when it once began to be dispersed in al the world Fiftly that it was done for the auayding of factions and sectes that grewe in the time of the ministers equalitie euen anon after the Primitiue Churche and some of them in the Apostles time But quite contrary to this Iudgement of your Diuines are all your Canonistes your Diuines make seuen orders Et in hoc saith Angelus de clauisio concordant coÌ„muniter theologs On this the diuines agree commonly but the Canonists holde that there are nine orders according to nine Hierarchies that is to wite the first notch or psalmist and the order of a Bishop and that the first notch is an order the text is in C. cum contingit ibi do Anto. canonistâ—… de 〈◊〉 quali or similiter quod Episcopatus est ordo quod imprimatur Caracter indiâ—…io meo facit inconuincibiliter tex in C. 1. de ordinatis ab Episcopo c. sic secundum Canonist as erunt nouem ordines And so according to the canonistes there shal be nine orders Great ado your Scoolemen and Canonistes make about this in so much that Aerius heresie will draw verie néere to one of you light on which side it shall But your selfe may holde on both sides M. Stapleton being both a Bachelour in the one and a student in the other As for vs ye do falsly burden vs Our doing is apparant therein acknowleging all due obedience and reuerence to our Bishops But as for your Popishe Clergie there is in déede litle differeÌ„ce in this point or none which barrell is better herring B. or Priest both starke nought or rather neither of them eyther true Priest or B. by S. Paules description Secondly you obiect that Aerius said there was no difference betwene him that fasted and him that did not fast wherein also as in the other your conscience haue ye any knoweth that ye
worshipped ye then and that with such high worship to your solemne Saint Thomas Becket that dyed for no matter of Religion at all But eyther for his obstinacie agaynste his liege Lorde and agaynst all the Barons Spirituall and Temporall of the Realme or if ye colour it neuer so fayre yet was it but in mainteyning his honour and the priuileges of the Clergie and that contrarie to the auncient custome of the Realme except yée will graunt that the Popishe Religion doeth consiste herein Whiche if ye bée ashamed to confesse vpbrayde not then for shame false Martyrs vnto vs nor yet the Canonising of wicked Sainctes We vse no such Canonization at all It redoundeth on your selfe on your Legende on your Popes and on your Pope holy Saincts Whome by this rule you make both Donatists Montanists Manicheans or what soeuer Heretikes ye can obiect besides As for all these Comparisons hitherto betwéene the Protestantes and the Donatists wherein ye thinke ye haue be stowed great cunning there is not 〈◊〉 poyâ—… that is not violently wrested to make it séeme to touch vs and not one poynt that being returned on your selues doeth not rightly and fully hitte you home againe And therefore I for my part am content as you concluding say you be To ende this talke with the whole conference leauing it to the indifferent Reader to consider whether the Popishe Catholikes or the Protestants drawe nearer to the Donatists To come newe at length to the sixt and last parte of this Chapter which consistes in remâ—…ing such motiues as the Bishop alleageth to burtheâ—… Master Feckenham with the practise of the Donatists First master Stapleton deuideth these motiues in twaine Let vs then sayth master Stapleton proceede foorth and consider vpon what good motiues ye charge master Feckenham to be a Donatist whiche are to say truth none other but falsehoode and follie But as ye surmise the one is bicause hee craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the prooues of the olde Testament as the Donatists did The other bicause hee with the sayde Donatists should auouch that secuâ—…er Princeâ—… haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes ecclesiasticall nor to punishe any man for such causes These two motiues ye say Master Stapleton are to say the truth none other but falsehoode and follie In déede they are the worsâ—… by comming through so false a marchantes handes as yours For shame either tell the wordes as they â—…e at least the true and full effect of them or neuer sette them out in a distinct letter syâ—… you so often but euer falsly vpbrayde the Bishop hereof Else all the follie and falsehoode will proue to be in your selfe and not in the Bishops motiues The Bishop spâ—…ke not of Princes medling or punishing for Ecclesiasticall 〈◊〉 as though the Donatists simpliâ—… denied that anâ—… yâ—… graunted Princes yet so much as to meddle or punishe for your Ecclesiasticall causes that is to say to be your executioners therin as though the Emperors other Christian Princes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more vpon them at that time But the Bishop tolde how the godly fathers craued aide assistance of the magistrats and rulers to reforme them to reduce them to the vâ—…itie of the church to represse their heresies with their au thoritie godly lawes made for that purpose to whome it belonged of duetie and whose especiall seruice of Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiects be gouerned defended and mainteyned in the true and syncere religion of Christ without all errours superstitions and heresies This is that the Bishop wrote and to proue this he alleageth Saint Augustine Thus did Christian Princes gouerne in Ecclesiasticall causes then This did the Donatists then denie vnto them and this do now the Papists denie and ye come sneaking in and tell vs the Bishoppes motiue was this In charging Master Feckenham to followe the Donatists by cause hee with the Donatistes shoulde auouche that seculer Princes haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall nor to punishe anie man for suche causes As though the controuersie had bâ—…ne for anie kinde of medling or punishing whiche you sâ—…ming to graunt to Princes to bée your seruaunts and droyles in suche ecclesiasticall causes and so farre as you assigne them might therefore séeme not to play the Donatists when ye play their partes so liuely as can bée and so subtilly that the Donatistes were but Babes vnto you in séeming to giue them some medling or punishing in Ecclesiasticall causes but if they meddle with or punishe you or anie other otherwise than ye commaunde and restrayne them you so little then suffer them to meddle in Ecclesiasticall matters that with solemne curses ye debarre them from medling in anie temporall and ciuill matters too so farre ye passe the Donatists For shame master Stapleton tell your tale plainely that we may sée whether M. Feckenham played the Donatistes part or no or else your doubling wyll declare your selfe to be a Donatist also for companie But let vs sée how ye aunswere these motiues euen as your selfe propounde them The one is say you bicause he craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the proues of the old Testament as the Donatistes did Your Stale Iestes M. Stapleton of a fine blast of a horne â–ª of a â—…oule slawe of a blinde betell blunte shifte I ouer passe them When M. Feckenham ye say offereth to yelde if ye can proue this regiment either by the order that Christ left behinde him in the new Testament either by the Doctours either by Councels or els by the continuall practise of any one Churche thinke you M. Horne that this is not a large and an ample offer The largenesse of this offer is not here in questioÌ„ M. St. the offer is large and ample inough â–ª taken of the Bishop at his handes and proued vnto him at his owne demaunde It remaineth then that he stande to his promise and yelde to the truth or else he sheweth that he minded to offer more than he purposed to perfourme Onely now it is examined why here he specifieth the new Testament and quite leaueth out the old Testament â–ª This doing in this pointe saith the B. smelleth of a Donatist Nay say you There is not so much as any coÌ„iecture to gather this vppon yea the old Testament is not by this offer excluded but verely included For if the new Testament which rehearseth many things out of the old haue any thing out of the old Testament that make for this regiment if any Doctour old or new if any Councell haue any thing out of the old Testament that serue for this regiment then is Master Feckenham concluded yea by his owne graunt For so the Doctour or Councell hath it he is satisfied according to his demaunde VVhereby it followeth he doth not refuse but rather allowe and affirme the proufes of the old Testament It might
it is of master Foxes owne setting foorth I graunt M. St. he is the chronicler setteth downe that he findeth Doth that argue that he acknowlegeth for true euery such article as he setteth downe nay he maketh often exception to the contrarie that many of suche articles are falsly obiected which neuerthelesse he setteth downe Yea but there is moe thinges layde vnto him than this By whome M. Stap Forsoothe euen by sir Thomas More A trustie witnesse on your owne side But go to be it he sayde euen so Yet is this iniustly done of you master Stapleton to charge all Protestantes with his opinion in this poynt when they manyfestly mainteine the contrarye We deale not so with you we burden not your whole Churche where ye openly defende the contrarie with the seuerall iudgement of euery writer much lesse of euery obscure author and suche an one as of whome we haue nothing but heresay and that such heresay as his aduersaries loue to reporte and wrest to make it odious to the hearer this is not vpright dealing But yet for al this ye can not héere vpon fasten that whiche so fayne ye would that therfore he is a Donatist The Donatistes denied to Princes the punishment of heretikes and would haue beleefe free This man denieth neither of these First his quarel was not of faith alone but as ye tell it for any maner of crime to be punished by death and yet it followes no more hereon that he woulde haue faith free to beléeue what eche man woulde then he woulde haue it â–ª frée for any manner of cryme to doe what eche man woulde Secondly thoughe he denie the punishment by death yet he denieth not but thereâ—… â–ª graunteth that Princes might make lawes of other kind of punishement which if he graunt them your selfe cleare him of béeing a Donatist But leauing him ye tell vs of greater businesse concerning sir Iohn Oldecastle whoÌ„ ye rattle vp with a susurrauit calling him traytor and detestable Donatist And nowe say you all the weight resteth to proue this substantially to you and to master Foxe And to stoppe all your froward quarellings and accustomable elusions against our proofes VVell I will bring you as I thinke a substantiall and ineuitable proofe that is master Foxe him selfe and no worsse man. Héere is a lustie crake M. Stap. to bumbaste the matter withall out of doubt we shall héere haue some great foyle But let vs sée what all this haynous matter is Forsoothe M. Foxe setteth downe the articles that the Papistes haue composed to be sir Iohn Oldecastles articles the tenth article whereof is this That manslaughter either by warre or by any pretended lawe of iustice or for any temporall cause or spirituall reuelation is expressely contrary to the new Testament which is the lawe of grace and mercie Why M. Stap. is this your substantiall and ineuitable proofe that is master Foxe him selfe and no worsse man this is none of master Foxes saying nor opinion he dothe but write â–ª playne and plat what soeuer articles it pleased his enimies your auncestors to deuise in the name of Sir Iohn Oldecastles articles Lo thus he writeth say you of this worthy Champion and that euen in his owne huge martyrologe who doubteth but to the great exalting and amplification of this noble worke and of his noble holy martyr The worthy prayse of this noble worke in déede and of this noble and holy martyr are no whit blemished by these your scoâ—… raylings M. St. but what kinde of argument call ye this he reciteth this article among the rest and therfore out of doubt he alloweth it and sets it out to hys great exalting and amplification By this argument your selfe allowe the article too for ye haue héere also recited it But what would ye haue sayde if he had subtracted it and the one of the twayne he must haue done either haue left it out or set it out as he founde it But howe chaunce you lefte out that whiche in many places of his worke M. Foxe noteth of the Papists corrupting of those martyrs articles yet which is in déede to his great exalting and amplification he setteth them downe euen as he founde them For the thing to any indifferent reader will easily shewe it selfe But yet goe to once agayne Were this article his or not his it proues not him a Donatist First the Donatistes allowed manslaughter thoughe vnlawfully done as your selfe haue proued before of the Circumcelions But héere ye graunte that he vtterly disalloweth all manslaughter and so ye cleare him héerein of béeing a Donatist Agayne the Donatistes vtterly reiected as your selfe say all the Princes authoritie and all punishement in false religion Contrarywise Sir Iohn Oldecastle allowed their authoritie yea ouer the Pope and his Prelates to punishe them for their false religion And thoughe he disallowed manslaughter yet can ye not gather that he allowed no punishment for false religion Onlesse as ye shewed in the dayes of your late crueltie there be no punishement with you but manslaughter Whereby we maye more iustely gather that he acknowledged their authoritie in willing Princes to punishe thoughe not by deathe than you can any way gather héereon that he vtterly denied all kinde of punishement And if ye would deface his martyrdome for this or couÌ„t it Donatisticall of the same minde was euen sir Thomas More him selfe your owne mery martyr whome ye cited to witnesse a fewe lynes before as appeareth in his Vtopia although more couertly yet he quite disaloweth manslaughter and deuiseth other punishments in stead thereof Is he therefore a Donatiste And I pray you what was all the auncient order in banishing heretikes was it death or were they Donatistes then bicause they allowed not punishment by death So was S. Augustine a Donatiste also whome ye cite agaynst the Donatistes For it was long or euer he came to this opinion that the Donatistes might be slayne and vpon what considerations I wil shew you out of that learned clarke Erasmus who for this matter also had great conflict with your Sorbonistes I denie saythe he that euer I readde that Byshoppes sholude haue stirred vp Kinges to kyll Heretikes For this is not to warne Princes in generall but to appoynte oute vnto them a kynde of punishement But I speake in my reprehension not of these tymes but of Sainct Augustine and the Byshoppes of his age For nowe certayne Abbotes and Byshoppes thinke it a moste acceptable sacrifice to God if they may kyll a great many with their owne sworde and their owne hande And to confesse the truthe in that they tell howe Sainct Augustine was first of that opinion that he denied the Emperoures power to be called vpon but when he sawe the heresie succeeded he changed his mynde euen so is it as true that I wrote But then had they to do with Donatistes that were more than heretikes
who moste pernitiously raysed vp a schisme of the whole Churche and had Circumcelions bothe a madde and fierce kinde of men whiche murthered with swordes maymed with Sythes and with Lyme mingled with Vinegar put oute the eyes of the true beleeuers And what coulde the Emperour do but chastise suche that deserued any punishement whatsoeuer although they had helde no hereticall errour besides and yet notwithanding euen agaynst these the punishement of death was so little defired that euen S. Augustine did withstande the Shiriffe when he sent out a sharper edict fearing that he should kill any And so broughte to passe that a more milde edicte was set foorth For as then all the Emperours punishment consisted in a forfeit of money in taking away their goods froÌ„ the Donatistes churches giuing theÌ„ to the churches of the true beleuers And if the bishops could not be corrected by any remedie they were banished but of killing there was no mention at al. And therfore against Pelagius there was neuer any motion of crauing the Emperors aide bicause he did not on this sort trouble the traÌ„quilitie of the coÌ„mon weale yea and that is more by the entreatie of the Bishop they which had payed their forfeiture had their money giuen theÌ„ agayne and their bishops reteyned their dignitie still in their Churches if they would change their opinioÌ„s So great was the lenitie of those daies towards heretikes and that such heretikes to There are many kindes of punishing besides the punishment of death Very farre in deede are they from this lenitie which now a dayes for euery word that either is strange to them or not vnderstoode they crie foorthwith to the fyre to the fyre Heere therefore betweene these deuines and me thereis no dissention but this that they considering what a great plague of religion it is that the church should be deuided into such factioÌ„s seeme more enclined to slaughter On the other side I am more slow considering wherto the parable of the Lord wherto the most holy mens interpretations wherto the lenitie and mildnesse of the ancient Bishops and of the Emperours against heretikes calleth vs then also thinking on this howe nowe and then mens affections mingle them selues in this businesse and how often suche remedies fall out otherwise last of all that sometymes the truthe is doubtfull and nowe and then it hapneth that he is in errour himselfe that layeth the heresie to an others charge many times neither partie vnderstaÌ„deth other and they agree in matter whyle they iarre in wordes neither dothe S. Hierome speake rashely in the dialogue agaynst the Luciferians vnder the person of the true beleeuer after this maner no body saythe he can take vpon him Christes victorie no body can iudge of men before the daye of iudgement if the Churche be nowe clensed whye reserue we the clensing to the Lorde there is a waye that to men seemeth righte but the endes of it leade euen to the bottome of hell In this errour of iudgement what certayne sentence can there be c. VVhat Hierome ment by these wordes is cleare to the learned Truely they haue hitherto so moued me that I am of opinion that we oughte not to come to the laste remedie before all meanes be tryed Least perchaunce either through a corrupt iudgement the innocent or at the least he that might be recouered do perish or else euen that which is right be condemned for euer Thus muche and a great deale more writeth Erasmus on this matter But by this first we sée Erasmus iudgement and yet is he not counted a Donatiste Secondly he so describeth the Donatistes that these two witnesses of Iesu Christe which moste paciently tooke their death nor inuaded any others lyfe be fully cleared of this criâ—… Thirdly he so setteth the Donatistes out that beyonde all the former comparisons the Papistes of all other rome néerest them in cruell bloudsucking in prouoking and setting vpon other that prouoks them not in farre more cruell tormentes than of swordes sythes lime and vinegar yea they haue lefte no vnnaturall cruelties nor mischieuous trecheries vndeuised and vnpractised Fourthly he sheweth agaynst this popishe tyrannie euen where they will not suffer the examination of the truthe howe contrarie it is to the fathers and auncient Byshops whome they crake to succéede Fifthly where you M. Stap. falsely cite S. Augustine agaynst vs Erasmus truely â—…iteth him agaynst you shewing what clemencie the Emperours vsed euen to manyfest heretikes and what crueltie you practise agaynst the true beléeuers In times past saith Erasmus the Ecclesiasticall mildnesse did mitigate the seueritie of Princes And now the crueltie of certaine Monkes except it were mitigated by the mildnesse of Princes would burst out into more than the Scithians vnmercifull rage Thus we séethese two that ye â—…ayte at are not alone they shall haue good companie if they be Donatistes for disallowing manslaughter But now what if these twoo reiected it not at all but onely shewed the exact difference betwéene the old lawe or manâ—… politike lawes and the Gospell Will you denie that the Gospell that is to say the glad tidings of reconciliation forgiuenesse and saluation wrought by Iesus Christ is the lawe of grace and full of mercie I thinke M. St. ye will not denie this for shame Then should ye consider that the Gospell in it selfe killeth not but laboureth to saâ—…e it sendeth killing to the lawe the exercise threates and external punishment whereof is not altogither taken away by the Gospell but is forcible to the transgressours Nor the Gospell taketh away ciuill or polytike lawes from Princes nor the sworde to execute them on the euil doers And yet is there a manifest distinction betiâ—…éene the one and the other and so are euen your Sorbonists driuen to yéeld to Erasmus Quamuis Euangelium c. Although the Gospell do not expresly and plainly shew that Heretikes should be burned yet the lawes ciuill which are conformed to the law naturall which the Gospell doth not abrogate do decree that they should be put to death and burned So that neither be such lawes comprehended in the Gospell nor otherwise allowed than indirectly that is to say for the importunitie of the wicked And in this sense their wordes are not amisse But what sense soeuer ye make of their wordes ye can not proue them Donatists And yet if thus much also were graunted you doth this either charge vs that we be Donatists not allowing them therein if they had any such opinion â–ª or doth it cléere you Nay it once againe proueth you more Donatists For in very déede the Denatistes refused not simplie that the Prince should punish heretikes no nor by death neither if he would haue held with them and at their bare instigations haue punished the true beleuers by death they would haue then allowed it set him more on yea haue layed to their owne hands and
or no. Now ye may conclude sayth master Stapleton that there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes Ecclesiasticall Thankes be giuen to God master Stapleton that yet now at the length contrary to all your felowes to all your owne wranglings hitherto the force of the truth hath enforced you to yelde thus much to the B. ye graunt Now that Princes haue some regiment in ecclesiasticall causes which hitherto except the making a law of burning or punishing be an eccl. cause ye haue altogither denied vnto Princes But what is this some regiment that ye graunt theÌ„ now for neither we graunt them al regiment but some regiment also that is to say a supreme regiment And you also denie not in your marginall note that they may take vpon theÌ„ in ecclesiastical matters supreme gouernmeÌ„t authority power care but not say you such supreme gouernment as the othe prescribeth so that here we both agrée of supreme gouernment but the kinde of supreme gouernment is denied And to specifie your meaning herein how large a kind ye graunt or denie ye adde he should haue concluded in all things and causes else he concludeth not agaynst you signifying that you deny to them a supreme gouernment in all things causes ecclesiastical but ye graunt them a supreme gouernment authoritie power and care in things and causes ecclesiasticall First M. Stap. this is but a iangling and shifting quarell in wordes about things and causes ecclesiasticall and all things and causes ecclesiasticall For not onely the Bishop when he speaketh so indefinitely vnderstandeth all but also it is an ordinarie speach allowed in Logike in all things that be naturall or necessarie where the indefinite is counted as much as the vniuersall As to say a man is a reasonable creature or man is mortall is as much as precisely to say all men and euery man is reasonable and mortall And the saying in the next diuision he came to fulfill the lawe and the Prophetes is all one with this he came to fulfill all the lawe and all the Prophetes And likewise this giue vnto God that belongeth to God and to Caesar that belongeth to Caesar is as much to say as this giue vnto God all that belongeth to God c. and euen your selfe doe commonly speake thus indefinitely ecclesiasticall matters when ye meane all ecclesiasticall matters though now when ye be thus â—…iuen to graunt the effect of the matter yet would ye find some shift of descant to frustrate all the matter and say If ye meane of such regiment as ye preteÌ„d where ye know well ynough none other is ment ye make your reckoning without your host as a man may say and conclude before ye haue brought any proufe that they ought or may take vpon them such gouernment Whether this some regiment be such regimeÌ„t or such gouernment for thus M. St. ye loue in termes to dally though the Bishop hath proued it sufficiently and you haue graunted it standing onely like a daintie Nicie besetter on this quaint poynt in things not in all things yea whether this Nice restraint defeate the full proufe of the question in controuersie betwene master Feckenham and the Bishop shal appeare M. St. by calling them â—…ath coram to recken better with their host that is as you haue like a thriftie tapster called vpon so oft before though still ye brought in false reckonings to set before them and mark the issue that they condiscended vpon that is to weâ—…e Any such gouernmeÌ„t in ecclesiastical causes Lo here the demaund of the hoste himselfe be requireth but any such gouernmeÌ„t and that without putting in all in the reckoning Where therfore ye grauÌ„t the B. hath proued it in some eccl. causes which satisfieth the demaund of any ecclesiast causes euen according to your owne wrangling ye confesse the Bishop hath concluded the very issue that was concluded vpon Thus master St. euen by your owne reckoning the B reckoned with his host at the full and hath payed and satisfied that he promised and M. Feckenham required But nowe looke you what reckoning you will make to your friendes that haue here brought your selfe so farre in the lashe that taking vpon you to impugne the Princes gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes ye haue graunted and yelded to it How will your credite holde with your friends yea how will your reckoning hold with it self here ye haue grauÌ„ted some regimeÌ„t yea supreme gouernment though not such supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes In the last Chap. ye would graunt theÌ„ nothing but punishment of those whom you had condemned which is no ecclesiastical matter at all to hang or burne a man And yet ye gaue them no regiment much lesse supreme regiment therein neyther For you would haue al the appointing whoÌ„ he shal punish the prince hath nothing else to do but to execute him whom you deliuer vp vnto him which agréeth nothing with this that now ye haue grauÌ„ted least of all with that ye further grauÌ„t saying For though I graunt you all your examples ye haue alleaged and that the doings of the olde Testament were figures of the new and the saying of Esay that kings should be nourishing fathers to the Church and all things else that ye here alleage yet all will not reach home no not Constantine the great his example How agréeth this graunt master Stap. with all that ye haue done all this while Why haue ye denied the Bishops ensamples heretofore of Moyses Iosue Dauid c. and made such a long and earnest a do in the matter to be grauÌ„ted at length Did ye stand in it then to dilate your booke or do ye graunt it now to bragge of your skill or did ye resist the truth then contrary to your conscience repent ye now or be ye forced to grauÌ„t with some colour that ye cannot for shame in plaine speach denie howsoeuer it be many odde reckonings will fall out in your account against your selfe although you neuer â—…ecken with your host for the matter Ye graunt the saying of Esay also that Kings shoulde be nourishing fathers to the Church and all things else that the Bishop here alleageth yet will not all reach home no not Constantine the great his example VVill not all this reach home Master Stap. to proue the issue that euen your selfe do confesse the Bishop hath alreadie proued For that is the home that it ought tâ—… reach vnto by master Feckenhams demaund But go to measure it with a true yerde master Stap. and ye shall see it fayre and easily without any stretching at al reach euen as full home as you besides can require euen for the supreme gouernment of all maner ecclesiasticall causes looke what ye recken most vppon and that is euen the féeding with the worde vnder which the Sacraments also are comprehended not that he is the Minister of the worde and Sacraments as
to content you Io. Langus in his Preface Dedicatorie to Ferdinandus hath these wordes Uirtutes vero Maiestatis â—…uae c. I purpose not here to rehearse otherwyse of your Maiestyes vertues both for that I haue to small habilitie for so great a woorke and better it were not to speake at all of a matter of weight than not to bee able to prosecute it as the worthinesse of it requireth And also for that Nicephorus in hys Preface when hee consecrateth the trauayle of thys Hystorie to Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure of Constantinople for so beeing mooued by coniectures I take him to bee he liuely expresseth as it were in a Glasse the moste of those selfe same vertues Besides this where Nicephorus in the beginning of his Preface Dedicatorie doth call the Emperour to whome he dedicateth his woorke Pricipem omnium Christianissimum atque humanissimum A moste Christian and moste curteous Prince Herevppon Iohn Langus maketh his first marginall note Uidetur is esse Emanuel Paleologus This Prince seemeth to bee Emanuell Paleologus And after that in the same Preface he addeth another note thereof Emanuels nato praedones Turcae Constantinopoli eiecti sunt VVhen Emanuell was borne the Turkishe spoylers were driuen out of Constantinople And againe Imperatoris Emanuelis infantiâ—… The infancie of Emanuell the Emperour Lykewise another Successor eius in Imperio Constantinopolitanâ—… Emanuel filius His successour in the Empire of Constantinople was Emanuell his sonne Another Diuini numinis erga Emanuelem gratia fauor The grace and fauour of the diuine Godheade towardes Emanuell Another Tribâ—…untur Emanueli praecipue Imperatoriae virtutes The chiefe vertues of an Emperour are ascribed to Emanuell Another PalatiuÌ„ Impâ—…riale ib idem ab Emanuele constructum The Emperours Palayce was buylt by Emanuell Another Eam videlicet Constantinopolim per Emanuelem Christiani retinuerunt The Christians helde it that is to say Constantinople by Emanuell And yet another Dedicatur Ecclesiastica hystoria Imperatori Emanueli veluti corona capiti cius imponitur The Ecclesiasticall hystorie is dedicated to the Emperour Emanuell and is set on his head as it were a crowne Nowe master Stapleton might not all these notes vpon the Preface made by Langus a learned Papist moue the Bishoppe to name the Emperour Emanuell Paleologus and cleare the Bishoppe of vnfaythfull dealing and raysing of mystes And if he were deceyued he was deceyued for that he gaue to muche credite to suche famous Papistes as Lazius and Langus the Doctours of the faculties of Sorbone and of Louayne that take vppon them Censoriam potestatem To haue the authoritie of Censors in allowing and approouing the moste of all youre Bookes If therefore ye blame the Bishoppe for this except ye will shewe your selfe ouer partiall ye must needes condemne all these for the same Nowe master Stapleton hauing as he thinketh about this name gotten a great triumphe pretending to driue awaye the myste and cleare the coastes doing nothing him selfe but trampling in the duste and raysing vaine smokes aboute bare names letting the matter alone vnaunswered the more to dimme the Readers eyes telleth vs howe this Andronicus the elder sonne to Michaell after hys fathers death summoned a Councell of the Gretians wherein hee and they anulled and reuoked that hys Father had done at the Councell at Lions namelye concerning the proceeding of the holy Ghoste and for the whiche Nicephorus Maister Hornes Authour beeing also carryed awaye wyth the common errour as with an huge raging tempest dothe so highly aduaunce this Andronicus And so withall ye see vppon howe good a man and vpon howe good a cause master Horne hath buylded his newe supremacie to plucke downe the Popes olde supremacie For the infringing whereof the wicked working of wretched Heretikes is with him here and else where as we shall in place conuenient shew a goodly and a godly President as it is also with maister lewell for to mainteyne the verye same quarrell as I haue at large in my returne agaynst hys fourth article declared What yée haue there declared at large or at briefe Master Stapleton is not our matter nor I haue it to sée and I recke not to looke for I déeme it by this If I iudge amisse GOD forgiue me Onely herein all the worlde maye sée what a iollie bragger ye bée Ye are euer telling vs of youre Forâ—…resle youre Translations your Replies your turnes and returnes besydes thys your Counterblast nothing muste bée forgotten of all your clerkly Pamphletes If yée wante good neighbours ye will not spare to commende them to vs your selfe As for mée I will for this once returne your returne emptie to your selfe and aunswere onelye your presente quarrels The effecte whereof is to deface the Bishops allegation as grounded vppon the doyngs of an Heretike and auouched oute of the sayings of an erronious authour And to this purpose first ye threape vpon the Reader the Prince to haue beene Andromens the elder and not Emanuell And yet for all ye woulde make it so cleare a case ye sée the Doctours doubt as they say and all your owne Doctours and that the chiefe in iudgement Secondly ye woulde make the facte and doings that are commended by Nicephorus in this Emperour to be about the anulling and reuoking of that Michaell had done at the Councell of Lions namely concerning the procéeding of the holy ghost wheras all your Doctors abouesaid name it chiefly to be for expelling of the Turkes and preseruing of the Christians in Constantinople besides his other vertues For the which cause not onely Nicephorus so highlye commendeth him but also Lazius Langus and all your foresayde Sorbonistes and Louanians And yet you to make the Emparor and the matter odious say that it was the denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost for the which Niceph. doth so highly aduaunce this Andronicus Wherein as ye slaunder them both so thirdly doe ye great wrong to Nicephorus to slaunder him with so great an hereste and saye that he was caried away with the common error as with an huge raging tempest But I doubt it will rather séene M. Stapleton your selfe were caried awaye with so huge a raging tempest eyther of the heate of some cholericke passion or some melancholicke enuie so cankered against the Bishop and the truth of his cause that it maketh you freat and rage euen against Nicephorus also For and ye were not caried away in the huge raging tempest of such a sustian fume a man might then be the bolder to pull you by the sléeâ—…e and gently demaunde if ye finde any thing in this Nicephorus wherefore ye shoulde so sore chalenge him of this heresie or wherefore he shoulde so highly commende this Emperour for this heresie I thinke ye woulde be better aduised and mollifie this sharpe chalenge of heresie in Nicephorus Many superstitions and fabulous tales there be found of manye thinges in Nicephorus I graunt but for my owne part I finde not
euery reader will soone iudge that seeth how you shift off the matter Ye answere nothing to any senteÌ„ce of the B. allegatioÌ„s ye runne at randon to other â—…lim flamtales ye finde fault at other â—…thours about other matters ye picke quarrels about bare names ye snatch at the marginal note let go the matter ye defâ—…aÌ„t about the only word supremus more like â—… beggerly Pedantie than a grammarlike scholemaster all but to raise mistes couÌ„terblasts pretending to dissipate discusse mistes al but to cary the reader froÌ„ the flat round answering of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet are al these no beggerly shifts of yours In déede M. St. these are no coÌ„mon beggers shifts these are 〈◊〉 shifts than al men vse or thaÌ„ euery maÌ„ caÌ„ see they are belike borowed of the beggerly friers of Louaine but from wheÌ„ce soeuer ye haue them the cause is both beggerly barraine that in stéede of good plaine answering seketh such shifte of shiftes but hold your peace 〈◊〉 the begger it is a bad sacke that can abide no clouting Now hauing thus shifted of the B. allegations with these shiftes you gather them vp in a briefe recapitulacion to excuse the matter First all is sayd by the way of amplification to extoll the Emperour as in the same sentence he calleth him the sixt Element reaching aboue Aristotels fifte bodie ouer the foure Elements with such like As though this amplifying of his estate were any argument for you to depresse the same And sith as him self protesteth he meant no flatterie this amplification meaneth yet a truth of his excelleÌ„cie and supreme estate Otherwise he could not well haue so called him although he sayeth not altogither as you say neither for he micioâ—…eth not Aristotle at all nor any his fift body nor speaketh of the foure Elements but he saith Et vt ille ab vtraque c. And that he receyuing from both of them speaking of godlinesse and sâ—…licitie that which was proper to them both might make perfect to all men a newe and in very deede a maruelous coÌ„moditie and helpe to woâ—…e a certaine stable firmament and as I might call it a sixt and an eternall Element in diuine matters beginning to slyde perishing by shipwracke offering thee the great supreme and in deede the holy Anchor of so horrible a wauering and errour both in holy and in prophane matters That in thee they might represent a sownde stabilitie to others also that are with thee This being the amplification of Nicephorus which is in déede a great amplification it sheweth that he meant to coÌ„mende him very highly for his supreme dealing in religion not as M. St. would haue it any thing to abase the same which is quite contrarie to the authours meaning But then saieth M. Stap. all is but a metaphore which were it true proueth not nor concludeth but exprefleth and lighteneth a truth Thirdly the metaphore is ill translated and last of all worse applied For the traÌ„slation M. St. it is answered before thanks be to God ye can not proue it false And yet not to coÌ„tend yours is admitted and maketh against you too â—…ueÌ„ by your owne tale But what hindreth this that this worde anchor is but a metaphore doth a metaphore being a true metaphore proue nothing but lighten a truth doth not a true thing proue a truth be it metaphore or what soeuer it be be it true as for a metaphore doth it not proue the thing that it is resembled vnto Christ is called bread a vine a stone a Lion a way a dore a sheperde do not these metaphors proue and conclude in him the reasons and proportions wherefore he is so called do we not by these metaphors coÌ„clude that he is our norisher our life our stabilitie our strength our guide and defence our onely meanes and entrance into heauen The Emperour is called here the chief Anchor Yet al is but a Metaphore say you What theÌ„ we go not about to proue him an Anchor But euen as your selfe expounde it we proue him by the metaphore of an Anchor to be a stay and so being the chiefe Anchor it proueth and concludeth that he is the chiefe stay And this is ynough that that it proueth thus much As for the Anchor take it to your selfe and get an Asse to your Cowe to carie it Neuertheles if this were also remitted to you that being a metaphore it prooueth not nor concludeth but expresseth and lightneth a truth What 〈◊〉 this the matter So the truth therby be expressed and lightned although the Bishop thereby concluded not his matter but onely lightned and expressed the truth thereof Were not this ynoughe at least to stoppe your brabling and rayling agaynst him Except ye be of Iâ—…mbres and Membres disposition that of purpose will resist the truth and not expresse but suppresse not lighten but obscure the same as the Phariseys did and you Papistes after them haue done and labour still to do But ye cannot oppresse the truth for euer yeaeuen your striuing agaynst it shall the more agaynst your willes expresse and lighten the truth Your small conclusion is verie short Last of all say you it is worse applied but so long as ye shewe neither howe where nor whie a man might aunswere you a shorte horse is soone curryed And when you applie your minde to aunswere more substantially I will take paynes to replie and cuâ—…rie your answere more smoothly As for the rest of your Counterblast it is but the blowing vp of the victorie before ye haue it It aunswereth nothing to the matter but is a crake of your triumph that ye wene ye haue gotten much good do it you master Stapleton Nowe whereas say you in the beginning of your matter the substance of your proues hereafter standing in stories yt haue demeaned your selfe so clerkly skilfully here the reader may hereof haue a taste and by the way of preuention and anticipation haue also a certaine preiudiciall vnderstanding what he shall looke for at your handes in the residue VVherefore God be thanked that at the beginning hath so deciphered you whereby we may so much the more yea the boldlier without any feare of all your antiquitie herfater to be shewed cheerefully proceede on Thou séest here a iolie triumph gentle Reader and I doubt not but thou séest what a great gaine he hath wonne Do but call for his cardes I warrant you he will be ashamed to shew them But alas good man giue him leaue he must crake of somthing to comfort himselfe withall and set a fayre viser on an yll fauoured visage to outface the matter when nothing else will helpe it But God be thanked indéede that hath thus deciphered his noughtie reckonings and sophisticall summes filled vp with bare Ciphers in Algorisme that furnished a place in steade of an aunswere and were in déede no aunswere nor anie iust accompt but as they say he
neede not name be too too liuely and pregnant examples of this your true but needelesse and impertinent admonition How needelesse or impertinent the Bishops admonition was is séene already euen by your owne graunt thereto But how needelesse in déede impertinent altogither are these your vaine admonitions which ye cal a returne euery body may sée And how fitly they returne with a recumbeÌ„tibus vpon your owne side and how you controll your self for running to farre and yet ye runne at randon furder about the Countries to Boheme FrauÌ„ce Scotland Germanie and other namelesse countries to make them examples of your marginall note Heresies the destruction of common weales But thanks be to God none of their coÌ„mon weales are destroyed it is but your maliciouse slaunder on them And if they haue bene troubled or weakened the Papistes practises haue euer bene the chiefe originals thereof what soeuer ye pretende to deface the Gospell by calling all doctrine Heresie be it neuer so pure and holy if it be not by your popish Church allowed calling all countries and coÌ„mon weales destroyed how soeuer they florish in prosperitie peace and godlinesse if they refuse the Egiptian bondage of your spirituall Pharao the Pope But why mention you not all that parte of Hungarie that acknowledging obedience to your Pope neuerthelesse were ouercome and conquered of the Turkes why forget ye your mightie bulwarke and holy knights of the Rhodes I wisse they were the Popes champions and yet his blessing could not saue them froÌ„ the Turkish bondage You say there is some other place that ye néede not name what meane ye thereby Rome it selfe that so many times hath bene sacked destroyed and lefte waste and at this day the olde Citie for the most parte not inhabited except of owles and vermine in the ruines thereof and the new Citie deftled besides Idolatrie and superstition with most notorious filthy fornication and stewes of courtizans your Pope him selfe beyng the vicar of bawdes in maintayning his estate by such filthy lucre And this is counted among you the most holy common weale yea such a mirrour to all other that those Cities whiche conforme them selues to this common weale of Rome can neyther erre nor be in daunger of destruction But euen so sayde Sodom and Gomor till their destruction came sodaynly vpon them M. Stapl. hauing thus puffed vp his counterblast with these discourses in both his foresaide parts descendeth now to the thirde And now might I here breake of sayeth he from this and go further forth sauing that I cannot suffer you to bleare the readers eyes as though the Emperours Theodosius or Valentinianus sayings or doings should serue any thing for your pretensed primacie In déede M. Stapleton it is more than highe time that you had broken off long or this except you would or could haue answered â–ª better to the purpose and not to haue driuen your counterblast furder forth with such heapes of digressions needelesse to the matter but not needelesse to your purpose to bleare the readers eyes when otherwise â–ª you néeded a materiall answers But here such is your zeale ye can not suffer the Bishop to bleare the readers eyes This zeale M. Stapleton were coÌ„mendable in you if you ment good soothe or the Bishop had bleared the readers eyes and not simply and plainly set downe the truth that euen the bleared eyes if they were not cleane blinded with ouermuch affection might well beholde it But it is rather to be feared that as ye played before pretending to dissipate and discusse mistes where in déede none was ye raysed mistes and caste cloudes least the reader should haue espied the matter as it was so here though the readers eyes were cleere ye would bleare and dimme them and if he were bleare eyed any whit before ye would soone mende the matter and make him starke blinde For euen as ye there did so eftsones do you here The Bishops alleaging of these Emperours stayeth you froÌ„ breaking off and from going further foorth â–ª ye can not suffer the Bishop to bleare the readers eyes And yet to any thing that the Bishop out of these Emperours alleageth what soeuer the matter meane ye answere not one worde Except this be an answere as they say to sette the Hares head against the Goose iublettes to set one allegation against another If the Bishop hath bleared the readers eyes he cited as long an allegation as yours shewe then where he bleared them If he cited any thing false name the place But false or true say something to it or to some piece of it and not thus slinke away without any answere at all to the whole or any parte thereof What shall the reader iudge if he can see any thing but that the Bishop goeth plainely to worke and it is you that would bleare his eyes and put them out if ye could to kéepe the reader still in ignorance and wilfull blindenesse If the Bishops allegation be such as deserueth no answere at the least ye might haue sayde so Howbeit that you should not so bleare the readers eyes and that the reader should sée both the Bishops plaine dealing and the playne truth of the matter and how fully it proueth the Bishops purpose and the Princes dutie care charge and supreme gouernment ouer matters Ecclesiasticall I will set downe not onely so much as the Bishop alleaged but the whole Epistle Firste hauing shewed that the suretie of the common weale dependeth vppon Gods religion and what a great kindred and societie is betwixt these twayne true Religion and Iustice â—…ith therfore we sayeth the Emperour are constituted of God to be the Kinges and are the knitting togither or ioynture of godlinesse and prosperitie in the subiects we keepe the societie of these twayne neuer to be sundred and so farre forth as by our foresight we procure peace vnto our subiectes we minister vnto the augmenting of the common weale but as we might say being seruaunts to our subiects in all things that they may liue godly and be of a religiouse conuersation as it becommeth godly ones VVe garnish the common weale with honor hauing care as it is conuenient of them both that is peace and true religion for it cannot be that diligently prouiding for the one we should not care in like sorte also for the other But we trauaile earnestly in this thing aboue the rest that the Ecclesiasticall state may remayne sure both in such sort as is seemely for Gods honor and fitte for our times that it may continue in tranquillitie by common consent without variance that it may be quiet through agreement in Ecclesiasticall matters that the godly religion may be preserued vnreproueable and that the life of such as are chosen into the Clergie and the great Priesthode may be cleere from all faulte Thus doth the Emperour protest of the guidance care charge that he thought belonged to his hie office not onely in prouiding
of the Papistes I demaunde if Peter was made the first priest al other froÌ„ him how s. Iames could say the first masse that was said was Peter made Priest without singing or saying his first masse or any masse at al then belike Peter was no masse 〈◊〉 priest 〈◊〉 pope hath not hâ—… principalitie of priesthood froÌ„ Peter nor any priesthod at all from him for Peters was no massing Priesthoode suche as the Popes is and pretendeth to be the principall of that order But at your leysure answere this onely nowe I note that there is a great difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and the supremacie of all the Churche of Christe which is your conclusion and that that your Pope chalengeth But the Emperours words héere do nothing proue it And yet suche principalitie or excellencie of Priesthoode as it was it neither came from God nor from Peter for any thing that either is playnely alleaged or proued héere but rather the playne wordes are to the contrarie that this principalitie was yéelded and giuen to the Bishop of the Citie of Rome by men for so sayth the Emperour antiquit as contulit antiquitie gaue it Béeing partly moued with the opinion that Peter was bishop there and partly for that Rome was the auncient and moste famous Citie of the Empire as appeareth in the nexte Epistle of Placidia by you mentioned who calleth it Ciuitatem antiquam the auncient Citie and the Citie that is the Lady of all the Emperours Cities And therefore it became them to conserue the reuerence therof For which considerations that antiquitie gaue to it the principalitie and to the bishop therof Which principalitie of priesthoode or bishophâ—… was not aboue but vnder the principalitie of the Emperours estate as appeareth euen by these Epistles cited by you For first in the Epistle whereout ye take your allegation Ualentinianus telleth howe when he came to Rome I was sayth he bothe of the Romane Bishop and also of other that were with him gathered togither out of diuers prouinces entreated to write to your mildnesse saith Ualentinian to Theodosius of the fayth which beeing the preseruer of all faythfull soules is sayd to be troubled which fayth beeing deliuered vs froÌ„ our Elders we ought to defend with al coÌ„peteÌ„t deuotioÌ„ in our times to coÌ„serue vnblemished the dignitie of the reuerence proper to the blessed Apostle Peter so that the most blessed B. of the citie of Rome to whom antiquitie hath giuen a principalitie of Priesthood aboue all others may O most blessed Lorde Father and honorable Emperour haue place and facultie to iudge of the faith of the Priests and for this cause according to the solemnitie of Councels the Bishop of Constantinople hath appealed to him by his Libels for the contention that is sprong vp of the faith to him therefore requesting and adiuring me by our common sauing health I denied not to grauÌ„t thus much as to moue my petition to your mildenesse that the foresaid Priest meaning the Bishop of Rome all the other Priestes being also gathered togither through all the worlde within Italy all other former iudgement set aside may with diligent triall searching all the matter that is in controuersie from the beginning giue such sentence thereon as the faith and the reason of the true diuinitie shall require For in our times the frowardnesse of multitudes ought not to preuayle against religion since hitherto the faith hath bene conserued stedfast And to the more perfect instruction of your worthinesse we haue also directed the gestes whereby your godlinesse may know the desires and outcries of them all Thus farre the Epistle Which if ye had withall sette downe it wold haue dashed your Marginall note and conclusion of the Popes supremacie It would haue shewed that this principalitie of priesthoode was so vnder the Princes principalitie that the Pope was faine to labour to Ualeâ—…tinian and the Empresses also to write to Theodosius that he might haue place leaue to iudge the matter And that the place of iudging it might be in Italie and the Bishop of Rome might giue sentence not as he him selfe should please but conditionally as the truth should require and that thus he would admit the Bishop of Constantinoples appeale to take place and so he sendeth all the gestes of the matter for the Emperour to peruse and know them and to graunt their petitions and desires In all whiche things though there were a principalitie of the Priestes and Bishops and chiefly of the Bishop of the chiefe emperiall Citie olde Rome so farre as appertayneth to the debating discussing and iudging the doubtes in controuersie yet so farre as appertayneth to the licencing thereto the commaunding directing ordering setting out and maintayning euen of the same Synodicall iudgements of the Bishop of Rome or any other the supreme principalitie belonged to the Emperours And this appeareth yet furder by the other Epistles that ye mention In the next Epistle of the Empresse Placidia to Theodosius the Emperour hir Sonne for the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople after she hath shewed with what teares the Bishop of Rome moued hir to write she sheweth how all thinges were done vnorderly at Ephesus against Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople bicause sayeth she he sent a libell to the Apostolicall seate and to all the Bishops of these parties by those which were in the Councell directed from the moste Reuerende Bishop of Rome VVho are accustomed O moste holy Lorde my Sonne and Reuerent Emperour to be put according to the Decrees of Nicene Councell and for this cause let your mildenesse withstanding so great troubles commaunde the truth of the Religion of the Catholike faith to be kepte vndefiled And so ascribing a principall prerogatiue to the Bishop of Rome she desireth the Emperor that the iudgement of the matter may be sent ouer to him Which sheweth that the Bishop of Romes principalitie was vnderneath the Emperours Likewise in the next Epistle of Eudoxia to Theodosius after she hath praysed the Emperour saying It is knowne vnto all men that your mildenesse hath a care and earnest heedefulnesse of Christians and of the Catholike faith in so much that you would commaunde nothing at all to be done to the iniurie of it And after she hath shewed how the Bishop of Rome besought hir in the foresaide matter to derect hir letters to the Emperour saluting you sayth she I desire right that your tranquilitie would vouchsafe to haue care to the letters and those things that are ill done ye would commaunde them to be amended vntill that all things that also already are determined be altogither reuoked the cause of the faith and Christian religion that is moued in a Councell gathered togither in the partes of Italy may be fetched out For it is written that all this contention raysed commeth from hence that the Bishop Flauianus might be remoued from the Ecclesiasticall dealings Thus do these
if ye meane by this visitation the outward execution of the Church lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with hisedicts and executed with his sword For in such sort many Emperors Princes haue fortified streÌ„gthned the decrees of Bishops made in Councels both general National as we shall in the processe see And this in christian Princes is not denied but coÌ„mended What the state of the question in hande is the reader hath often hearde How be it such is your importunitie that ye will neuer leaue your olde warbling But for the full satisfying of the Reader berein let him once againe resort to the issue that M. Feck requireth of the bishop to direct all hys foure meanes vnto wherin he would be satisfied And that is conteyned in these flat wordes VVhen your L. shall be able by any of these foure meanes to make proofe vnto me that any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpon them any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes I shall herein yeelde c. This then is the state of the question betwéen theÌ„ whether any Prince may take vpon him any such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth Now wheresoeuer the B. proueth anything by the foure fore said meanes that any Prince hath taken vpon him any such gouernement as doth the Queenes Maiestie in causes ecclesiasticall there the bishop kéepeth himselfe to the state of the question in hande and satisfieth M. Fecknams issue What the bishop hath done in the two foresaide meanes is euident by that that is past let others iudge thereon Here the B. entring into the other two meanes prefixeth this issue againe before him to leuell his proues by The issue is now that by any of these two meanes remayning he shall proue that anye Prince may claime or take vpon him any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestie in Ecclesiasticall matters doth And where the B. by any of these two meanes shall proue that any Princes haue taken â—…pon them any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall matters as the Q. Maiestie doth there the B. digresseth nothing from his question also satisfieth M. Feck â–ª demaunde This then being the state of the question betwéene them the proofe of any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes the B. first setteth here down the particulars that plainly declare what gouernment this is that the Q. Maiestie taketh on hir wherto he must direct his proues So that now that question in hande is this What is that gouernment in what particulars consisteth it that the Q. maiestie taketh on hir Which when here the B. doth specifie in the last Chapter M. Stapl. himselfe commended the bishop for his orderly going to worke therein and now crieth out here is a state framed farre square from the question in had whether it be so or no whether it be not plain dealing of the B. and plain warbling of M. St. let any man be indifferent iudge betwéene them But M. Stapl. sayth the question is not nowe betweene M. Feck and you whether the Prince may visite reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of schismes heresies and offences in Christian religion True in déede M. St. the question is not nowe whether the Prince may doe these things that you rehearse or no but the question that is nowe in hand being deducted out of the words of the issue any such gouernment demaundeth first what kinde of gouernment that is that the Q. maiestie doth claime and take vpon hir to the which question the B. aunswereth the gouernment that hir highnesse taketh on hir is such and such c. And so the state of the question is knowne what kinde of gouernment the B. must proue And looke where he proueth any such gouernment there M. Feckenhams request is aunswered And if he can not prooue any such then M. Feckenham may complaine that he is not satisfied And as he is bounde to performe his promise of thankfull yéelding so haue you no cause to warble at this the B. diligent enumeration of those particularities of the principal question least both ye should wander in an obscure generalitie also coÌ„trarie your late vaunt that ye go to worke plainly truly and particularly But sée your falshoode how chaunce ye set not downe the Bishops wordes as he spake them but abridge them 〈◊〉 of thrée parts of them and more crying Here is a state framed farre square from the question in hande Here is a false subtiltie of you M. St. farre square from any truth in hand or out of hande The Bishops wordes are these The gouernment that the Q. Maiestie moste iustly taketh vpon hir in eccles causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting forth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer In place of all these wordes euery one béeing materiall to shewe the particular things wherein hir gouernment consisteth that she claymeth you onely for all these set downe these wordes The Prince may visite reforme and correcte all maner of persons for all maner of heresies schisines and offences in Christian religion As though the Bishops particular words specifying the poynts of hir gouernmeÌ„t conteined no more but this Neuerthelesse had the bishop specified no more but these words that ye thus contracte yet had he not swarued from the issue betweene them Any suche gouernment nor from the directâ—… answering to the question declaring any suche gouernment chiefly the chiefe poynts therof that the Quéenes maiestie claymeth and you refuse to yéelde vnto hir For euen these particularities that you set out ye will not graunte without an exception and that is in effecte vtterly to denie them althoughe in daliaunce of spéeche saying in some sense ye would onely séeme to mollifie them For what else meane these your words VVhich perchaunce in some sense might somewhat be borne withall if ye meane by this visitation and reformation the outwarde execution of the Churche lawes and decrees confirmed by the ciuill magistrate roborated with his edicts and executed with his sworde for in suche sorte many Emperours and Princes haue fortified and strengthened the decrees of Byshops made in Councels bothe generall and nationall as we shall in the processe see And this in Christian Princes is not denied but commended Christian Princes haue héere gotten afaire catche by this your graunt and commendation to become your seruants your souldiours your slaughtermen only executing with their swords that you with your authoritie decrée and appoint vnto them Now forsooth a fayre supreme authoritiâ—… But let vs sée how this doth hang togither Ye graunt theÌ„ to visite reforme
Prince had it What if there were an heretike Pope what if there were a Pope not only by his natiue countrey a Turke but also one that practiseth priuie conspiracies leagues yea â—…reasons with the Turke against christian Princes in all mischiefe of life yea and errours of fayth also were worsse than the Turke and that the Turkes erroneous Alkaron speaketh yet more reuerently of Iesus Christ than doth the pope that pretendes to be his vicar What if there were a Iew pope or one that would cause Christians to receiue Iudaisâ—…e yea to cruâ—…e Christ agayne What if there were a heathen Pope or one that caused as grosse Idolatrie to be vsed as dyd the Paynims and beléeued as much of heauen or hell of God or the diuell of the bodies resurrection or of the soules immortalitie as the Epicures or the Saduces dyd What if there were a whoremaster Pope yea a whore Pope a Sodomiticall Pope a Iudas Pope a Neronian Pope an Antichrist Pope and suche a Pope as hath done more for the diuels kingdome than eueÌ„ the deuill him selfe could haue done If this clause were for euer vnited vnto the Pope how should we do then master St I pray you helpe vs héere at a pinche out of the briers If ye shall denie there can come any suche Popes shewe why there may not come suche hereafter as well as there hath gone suche heretofore If ye denie there hath bene any such Popes heretofore and put me to my profes wel then I must proue it and God willing so will I when ye shall bid me But if beforehand ye thinke I shal be able to do it and you wil preuent me with a shift of descant that though they were such ill Popes yet in respect they were popes they were none of al these things but in respect they were meÌ„ for so ye afterward excuse y matter to which distinctioÌ„ there you shall be answered God willing yet here admitting also this distinction why may not I replie that what soeuer the person shall be that shall haue hereafter the crowne of this realme the statute and the lawe respecteth not the man that shall haue it but the estate and authoritie that â—…e shall haue and entendeth not that he is a man but that he is a king and so medling not with his vices and affections setteth out his duetie and office what he oughte to do what maner of man he ought to be in this respect he hath this authoritie And so euery way your wicked and malicious presupposall is answered simply but truely I trust howsoeuer other woulde answere it better or as iâ—… better deserueth giue it no answere at all Nowe hauing cast foorth your presupposition as a snaring bayte to bréede a scruple of some marueylous inconuenience and after your false maner of concluding hauing inferred that of the statute that it implyeth not ye begin to buskle vp your feathers and crow saying This kinde of regiment therefore so large and ample I am right well assured ye haue not proued nor neuer shall be able to proue in the auncient Church while ye liue In déede for that kinde of regiment master Stapleton that you inferre and would as a maâ—…e set vp it is a Papal or Turkish regiment and that the Bishop shall neuer be able to proue it I bolde well with you nor be goeth about to proue it but to improue it But that kinde of regiment that he here setteth downe of the Quéenes Maiestie that will he proue and hath alreadie proued it for al this your Thrasonicall crake which I commit to muster in your common place thereon And let this his fellowe go with it for companie VVhen I say say you this kinde of regiment I walke not in confuse and generall wordes as ye doe but I restrayne my selfe to the foresayde perticulers nowe rehersed and to that platforme that I haue alreadie drawne to your hande and vnto the which master Feckenham must pray you to referre and applie your euidences otherwise as he hath so may he or any man else the chiefe poynts of all being as yet on your side improued still refuse the othe For the which doings neither you nor any man else can iustly be grieued with him You maye saye like a lustie Gentleman what ye please master Stapleton I say this kinde of regiment and that kinde of regiment and tell vs of your walkes of your restrayntes of your platformes that ye haue drawne but these are but néedelesse vauntes Tell vs of that regiment that is in question walke there a Gods name restraine your selfe to that be contente with the platforme that is alreadie drawne to your handes otherwise master Feckenham and all other will sée that ye doe but brabble And as ye would drawe the Bishop to driue his proues thither whether he is not bounde to referre them so ye doe not onely deceyue the Reader but offer wrong also euen to master Feckenham whome ye take in hande to defende and here ye make him such a childe that he knewe not how to frame his issue nor wherein he would be resolued But M. Feckenham if ye defende him thus may biâ—… you meddle with your Fortresses and let him alone with his cause And if the Bishop haue not in these two meanes satisfied the demaund of his issue then tell master Feckenham that he may still refuse the othe But if the Bishop haue proued by any of these two poynts the Scriptures or the Doctours master Feckenhams issue that he desired to be proued that is any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestietaketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes then can not maister Fecken iustly refuse the othe but must vvith heartie thanks yelde therevnto as he hath promised by wryting to the Bishop or else he shall be holden as an vniust man and as obstinate a wrangling Papist as you shewe your selfe to be Which wilfull refusall though it be a griefe to all the godly affected that beholde your frowarde blindnesse yet shall it be the lesse griefe vnto them when they sée that neyther truth nor honestie will reclaime you Here after the vaunts of your selfe and the excusing of master Feckenham ye enter into your thirde part of excusing all the Papists calling it in your margine A reasonable defence of the Catholikes for refusing the othe This reasonable defence hath two partes the one the excuse of the Papists the other the accusing of the Bishop For the former sayth master Stapleton As neither with vs master Horne ought you or any man else be grieued for declaring the truth in this poynt as if we were discontented subiects or repining against the obedience we owe to our gracious Prince and countrey No man is grieued with you master Stapleton as ye pretende for declaring the truth in this poynt or any other but onely for your not declaring the truth but concealing the truth and outfacing the matter with false countenances of
earthly in this respect as M. Saunders him selfe confesseth neither bathe he the gouernement of the Churche which is dispersed in many kingdomes but is a gouernour of a parte therof or of some particular Churche Nowe when M. Saunders hath thus proued as he thinketh the imperfection of the olde lawe saying And thuâ—… should these thinges be if in the olde time the kinges of the Iewes had exercised any chiefe power in ecclesiasticall matters and ouer the Bishops He turneth him selfe on the other side to the flat deniall of this which in the answere to our first obiection he flatly graunted and fled then to thyâ—… shifte that the case was altered But nowe sayth he neither is it true that the Kinges of the Iewes were counted greater than the Priestes of the Leuiticall kinde in administring those thinges that pertayned to ecclesiasticall matters whiche by peece meale I will not be greeâ—…ed to shewe It will not greeue you to tell a lye M. Saunders but to tell the truthe it woulde be a greefe vnto you Where dyd we say that the Kings of the Iewes were counted greater than the Priests in administring those thinges that pertayned to ecclesiasticall matters But go too let vs sée what peecemeale proues you bring And firste saye you Moyses commaunded that after the King was sette in the seate of hys kingdome hee shoulde wryte oute for him selfe in a volume another copâ—…e of this lawe â–ª taking the copie of the Priestes of the â—…euiticall Tribe But if not onely other but the king also him selfe muste go to the Priests for writing out of the lawe how was the king the prince in interpreting the lawe the copie whereof he was compelled to craue of other was he not herein admonished that he should remember that the priests were his superiours in those things that pertayned to the law for as euery Magistrate crauing the sworde of the king receiuing it doth in so doing declare the king in the right of the sword to be greater than him selfe after the same sorte is it when the king receyueth of the Pristes the copie of the diuine law Is this the copie of your piece meale proues M. Sand he that should take a copie of your argumentes might per haps haue néede but God wot shoulde finde full slender stuffe in them This argument is copied out of Stapleton and your other collectors and is already answered Which if it were good bycause the Prince taketh the copie of the lawe from the Priest therefore in the gouernment of matters pertayning to the lawe the Priest is aboue the Prince then is the Register aboue the Chauncelor the Bishop then is the Clarke aboue the Stewarde and the Prince bicause he hath the kéeping of the recordes And this is a more like example than that you bring in of a Magistrate crauing and receyuing the sworde of the king for in this example the King hath not onely the kéeping of the sworde but al the authoritie of and lawfull exercise of the sworde vnder God dependeth on him and suche as he will giue it vnto Wherfore he acknowleageth rightly the King to be his greater But in the lawe of God where the kinges gouernement is appoynted to him and by that appoyntment of God he hath interest in matters of the lawe of God by his kingly office and therefore must haue the lawe of God about him to directe his giuerment and hath not this interest authorie giuen him of the Priest as the subiect hathe the authoritie and exercise of the sworde giuen him of the king doth this argue a like that the Priest is superiour bicause he muste haue the kéeping of the lawe and the king that he may be sure he hath a true copie of Gods lawe muste haue it of the Priest Dothe the keeping argue the greater authoritie â–ª The king must haue the crowne of the kéeper of the crowne and the seale of the keeper of the seale is the keeper therefore the greater Nay it rather argueth althoughe in looking too that those thinges be well kepte and truely declared they haue a more especiall charge in their offices yet are they rather inferiours in that they haue for the kings behoofe the kéeping and deliuery of them And so the priest hathe an especiall charge of keeping and deliuering to the Prince the lawe of God bicause of his especiall vocation in the studie profession and administration of it Whiche argueth more cunning and learning of duetie to be looked for at his handes than at the Princes And therefore we ascribe not as you saye greater principalitie to Princes in the interpreting of the lawe of God. Princes commit that to the interpreters But to the Prince is committed a superiour charge of gouerning all persons to ouersee that the lawe of God be rightly interpreted and administred And for this cause the Prince oughte to haue the copie of the lawe not him selfe to interprete it and whereto then to lye idly by him no to gouerne him selfe and all his subiectes by the prescription of it After this he alleageth the examples of Moyses Samuell Iosue Dauid Salomon Constantius and Theodosius In Moyses and Samuell he hathe nothing that is not common To Iosue Dauid and Salomon he vseth Stapletons answeres and there is answered The examples of Constantius and Theodosius are somewhat already answered and shall be further God willing when we come to the practise And likewise to the Councels that he citeth The argument of the fourth Chapter That Christian Princes may be deposed from their estates by the Bishops and their kingdomes giuen to other when their gouernment hurteth the truth of the faith and the soules health whereto they are ordayned IN this 4 Chapter M. SauÌ„ders kepeth no perfect method and therfore we must follow him as he procéedeth First he maketh two kinds of men the earthly man and the heauenly man and so likewise two kingdoms the one earthly the other heauenly The earthly kingdome choseth their king by humaine consent as Nimrod c. Of the heauenly kingdom that Christ hath in the earth Christ is the king Who although by the worthinesse of his nature he be king of all men yet is he called onely the king of the faithfull Who comming into the world as he hath not taken away the former nature of maÌ„ but renued it so hath he not destroyed the earthly kingdome but amended it Here vpon he concludeth that earthly kings may be made Citizens of gods Church and vse all their olde right and most free gouernement in all those causes that diâ—…ishe not the faith and Religion of christ They may make whome they will fit Ciuil magistrates They maye appoint at their pleasure lawfull punishments for malefactors and freely do al other thing that by the law Naturall Nationall Ciuil or Mâ—…nicipall shall be allowed To all this as we agree with M. Saunders and therfore I gather bâ—…t a briefe coÌ„tâ—…ct
soule admit also he finde the soule of the king infected with spiritual Leprie must be therefore pronounce him to be no king nay I trow the priest serued not Ozias so Must the Priest depose him must be assoile his subiectes froÌ„ their sworne obedience â–ª must he bid theÌ„ chose another â–ª where find you this M. Saund â–ª in what law in Robin Hoodes lawe or Iack strawes law surely it is some rebels lawe for in gods law you can not shew it that Priests should do such things No say you It is a matter of faith who should deale therein but the Priests Is this a matter of faith M. Saunders to sturre the people to violate their Faith cannot the Faith be kept to God except we breake our Faith to the Prince you aske who should do it rather thaÌ„ the Bishop where of all other he should least do it to say truth none should do it But if any will attempt rebellion Popish Priests I sée are readiest and here M. Saunders offereth himselfe and his fellowes A méete office for such officers But in gods word we finde no such office for Priests or for any other we sée there no such example saue of Corah Dathan and Abiron of Absolon Ioab Achitophel and Abiathar and suche other traytors whom God punished accordingly Godly Priests rebuked euil Princes but they neuer offred them this iniurie But if the subiects saith M. Saunders loke not in this matter to their duetie then it belongeth to the pastors by what meanes so euer they can to prouide that he that sittes in the chaire of pestilence should not raigne in the Church of God â–ª Yea there M. Saunders there lo if neuer a Captaine for traitors can be found among subiectes the Priestes will be their Captaines and will rebell alone if none other will besides Do the Prince but once displease the Priests then his royall throne wherin God hath set him is the Chaire of pestilence and the Priests will prouide another king and that by all whatsoeuer meanes they caÌ„ they wil attempt al wayeâ—… possible by practises conspiracies whisperings murmurings railings blind prophecies curses treacheries seditions treasons rebellions murders sorceries pâ—…ysonings 〈◊〉 to conclude by what meanes soeuer they can for these be his owne words to depose the Lords annoynted and to set 〈◊〉 another of their confederacie for all these meanes they 〈◊〉 practise haue practised do practise and therfore now they may pleade practise for theÌ„ If this doctrine be not the chaiâ—… of pestilence then out of doubt it is eueÌ„ the pestilence itselâ—… All the deinls in hell can not deuise to the sclauerie and confusion of al â–ª kings and to the maintenance of the Popes 〈◊〉 ranie sitting in y very chaire of pestilence a more 〈◊〉 pestilent doctrin thaÌ„ this is Now as though this werâ—… so clâ—…re a case that it were not to be so much as once spokeâ—… against What saith he is not the matter thus what do not pastors vvatch for soules as vvell of kings as of theÌ„ that obey kings Yes that they do M. Saunders as it appeareth by youre tale they vvatch for soules and bodies and goods also chiefly of kings The Deuill vvatcheth not as Peter saithe more narrowly seeking vvhome he maye deuoure than doe your Pastors kepe bothe vvatche and warde to deuoure bothe kings and subiectes and to rule all wordly kingdomes Then say yeu it is their duetie to let slip naught of those things that they knowe are profitable for the soule health This indéede is their duetie M. Saunders whiche consisteth in preaching Gods worde But this they can let slip well inough howbeit the matter now in hand is a worldly kingdome and that they will not let slippe in any wise least they should let slip those thinges that they knovve are profitable to the bodies health But vvho seeth not say you that it abhorreth altogither from the soules health that he should be suffered to raigne ouer the faithfull that is himselfe vnfaithfull must not then also of necessitie the people become vnfaithfull There is no necessitie M. Saunders but it is a shrewde likelyhoode But firmum fundamentum Dei stat c. the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale God knovveth vvho are his and God will preserue those that are his from assenting to such Princes vnfaithfulnesse Howeâ—…eit the swaye of the people turne to much after the swaye of the Prince whiche is a perilous case as we sée where po â—…pishe Princes raigne and it is a iust plague of God propter â—…eccata populi c. God maketh the Hypocrite to raigne for the peoples offences But againe where the Prince doth fauour and set forth the Gospell of Iesus Christ there redoundeth â—…s much commoditie to the people by the Godly Princes gouernment But vvhen saith M. Saunders Ieroboam the king of Saâ—…aria erected tvvo Idols in Dan and Bethel vve knovve that herevpon almost ten whole Tribes fell into Idolatrie and by litle and litle cast off the faith of one god Shal he therfore be worthy the name of a man that shall affirme a wicked king ought not to be compelled to depose himselfe from his Magistracie Can you make this conclusion on this example M. Sand then are you worthy the name not of a man but of a cunning man I wil not say of a traytor But what can not you make quodlibet ex quolibet what you please of what you liste to serue your turne withall Ieroboam we graunt did make the people fal to Idolatrie But did any Priest or Prophete taking occasion herevpon rebell or prouoke other to rebell against him or did any of them depose him or sought to set vp an other if you finde this you finde somewhat for your purpose if not the example maketh cleane against you The Prophets indéed rebuked the king and that sharply spake against his Idolatrie and tolde him how God would cut off his kingdome Yet they themselues attempted not to cut it off but peaceably obediently liued vnder his gouernment Yea this deposing of a Prince whome God set vp was so far from any subiectes authoritie that it was not lawful for Roboam to whom the kingdome before appertained to attempt to recouer it by law of Armes but he and his people by Gods especial commaundement were bidden go home againe So much this example maketh against you and yet you are so impudent to alleadge it And that herevpon the king muste not onely be deposed of other but by other be compelled to depose himselfe and that he which shal not affirme this and that on this example of Ieroboam is not vvorthy the name of a man. But he that will not play the rancke traytor and wrest the examples of the scripture for him that make cleane against him hath no maÌ„hood in him nor is worthy the name of a maÌ„ with
M. sand And now as though he had brought an inuincible proofe he procéedeth saying But if he must needs be deposed at least for heresie hovv shall that controuersie be iudged without the knowledge of the doctors of the Church who only of their office haue the ordinarie lawful power to loke to the flocke in the whiche the holy Ghost hath placed theÌ„ to guide the Church of God. But the pastors doctors of the church could not be Iudges of any king except the king in that thing were lesse inferior to theÌ„ For neither the equal hath power ouer the equal neither the inferior ouer the superior VVorthily therfore we affirme that al christiaÌ„ kings in those things that appertaine to matters of faith are so vnder bishops priests â–ª that when offending obstinately against the christiaÌ„ religion â–ª they shall perseuer after one two rebukings bothe they maye and they ought for that cause to be by the Byshops sentence deposed from the gouernement that they holde ouer the Christians You conclude ful worthily M. San. your argument is this if the Prince must needes be deposed he must be deposed by the Bishops priestes This reason hangeth all on this presupposall that he hath so fully proued this that the Prince nowe in all post hast must nedes be deposed â–ª And yet we haue hitherto heard no such proues that should enforce any suche necessitie but rather necessarie for the bishops priests or any other subiects behalfe to let him remaine still vndeposed for them although he were an heretike So that we may rather reuerse the argument If nedes he must not be deposed the must not the bishops priests attempt to depose him Howbeit ther is no necessitie in the coÌ„sequence that if he must nedes be deposed that for heresie that the bishops priests must depose hi. Yes saith M. SaÌ„ for how shal that coÌ„trouersie be iudged without theÌ„ what thogh that coÌ„trouersie could not be iudged without theÌ„ M. sand must they therefore be deposers of him froÌ„ his estate bicause they iudge of the doctrine he professeth must they iudge of his Diademe bicause they iudge of his religioÌ„ but what if they theÌ„selues haue corrupt iudgements therein trow you priests bishops haue not had so ere now yes eueÌ„ this sentence of s. Paule that here you cite for the Bishops and Priestes authoritie giueth a plaine warning of it I knowe saithe he that after my departure shall come among you rauening VVolues not sparing the flocke there shall rise vp men from among your selues speaking peruerse thinges to dravve Disciples after them But say you saint Paule saith they must looke to the flocke so much the more in vvhiche the holy ghost hath placed them to guide the church of God. True in déed they must so do But what if they be blind theÌ„selues how loke they to it then And did Christ neuer talke of blind guides you post off that to the Phariseis Iewish Bishops But if you were not more blind thaÌ„ they you would sée a great difference betwéene loking to the flocke guiding the Church of God by teaching true doctrine taking heede vnto and discerning of false doctrines and teachers preching the worde of God with learned iudgement and betwéene the clayming of authoritie to depose Kings and Princes froÌ„ their royal estates Whie say you if they be Iudges they are aboue them and neither equall nor inferior They may be equal and aboue them too in learned Iudgement and also in the dispensation of their misteries yet in publike authoritie far inferior And therfore your conclusion A secuÌ„dum quid ad simpliciter faileth that bicause they are inferior in one thing to Bishops they be in al thinges or in this thing inferior Yea say you they are so vnder Bishops and Priestes that when offending obstinately againste the Christian religion they shall perfeuer after one or two rebukings the Bishoppes may and ought to depose them from their gouernment ouer Christians This is a great inferiorship M. sand to be so much vnder them For by this rule if a Prince as coÌ„monly Popishe Princes doe shoulde kepe a Paramour â–ª a Popishe Byshop may depose him But they wil not be ouer hastie to reproue the Prince for that which they vse themselues neither couÌ„t they it an offence against christiaÌ„ religion yet in the christiaÌ„ religion iâ—… is forbidden so is against it especially to defend it mainteing it as the Papistes do But if he do wrong to any of his subiectes wil not amende his wrong after a B. hath once or twise giueÌ„ him warning of it then by this rule the B. maye straighte depose him And in déede so they haue done would do if the wrong touch them if their lands and goods were diminished then by by it is against the ChristiaÌ„ religion it is plaine heresie except by the seconde admonition it be restored with a recumbentibus the king must be in al the hast deposed there is no remedie nor further respit for not only the Bishops may but plat plaine they ought to doe it Is not here a kingdome brought to a goodly state But he wil say he meaneth by offences against the Christian religion matters of faith But what helpeth this for as wheÌ„ the Lion proclaimed that al horned beasts shuld auoyd out of the wood although the Foxes pricked eares were no horns neyther néeded he haue gone ye he wisely foresaw that this was but a drifte to picke a quarel therefore he hied him out of the wood For since al lay in the Lions interpretatioÌ„ what if the Lion had said his prick eares had bin horns or as sharp as hornes surely then the Fox had dronke for it And if the Byshops may haue the like authoritie to bid the Prince be packing out of his realme if he offend the christian religion what will it boote the Prince if the Bishops be disposed to picke a quarel against him to saye he offendeth not againste the Christian religion but rather defendeth the true religion of Christ against the corruptions of it and in déede so he doth but what auayleth eyther his excuse or the truth of the matter if the Bishops shall say it is heresie and against the christian faith the Bishops that so say shal be the Iudges whether it be so or no were not the king as good get him out of his kingdome at the first or else they will depose him set him out with a heaue ho But that Bishops may thus hamper Princes as they list where find we authoritie or example in the scripture yes saith M. Saunders For God which at the firste so seuered the heauenly kingdome from the earthly kingdome that he suffered the kings of the earth to come togither against the Lorde and againste his anoynted and thereby notably declared his power while by the
they may be â—…conciled and continue together â—…ut you 〈◊〉 in this case of swaruing from the 〈◊〉 the subiect and the Prince may not continue together â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the man and the womaÌ„ are by their contract in mariage knit inseparably togither especially as the Papists maâ—…e the contract that it is neuer vndone for any vice no not for whordome although they graunt there may be in nâ—…ne but 〈◊〉 déede a separation so the Prince and the â—…ubiect being contracted togither in the polycie of a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the one 〈◊〉 faithfull gouernement the 〈◊〉 promising faithfull obedience notwithstanding all their vices that fall out afterwards betwene them may not be â—…ieane parted a sunder the Prince from his authoritio the suâ—…iect from his obediencâ—… but till their liues endes most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 together â–ª and as the priest â—…an not 〈◊〉 but by your owne 〈◊〉 makes 〈◊〉 againste you But now â—…ay â—…n and moue your question M. Saunders I aske say you if this by name should come in questioÌ„ whether this shoulde not necessarily be aunswered to that King which would become a Christian Let it be that King Lucius come to Blessed Eleutherius the Pope yea or else king Clodoueus to Blessed Remigius and desire them selues to be admitted into the societie of the Christian people But let vs suppose that the Blessed Eleutherius or Remigius answere to eyther of them we are glad most deere Sonne that thou desirest to be made a Citizen of the kingdome of heauen but this thou oughtest to knowe for certaintie that the case is not â—…ke in the kingdome of heauen as it is in the worlde For in the Church thou must liue so that thou make captiue thy vnderstanding to the obedience of â—…aith But thou how greater thou arte in the world maist so much the more hurt the Churche of God â—…f thou shalt abuse the right of thy sworde to the defence of heretikes contrarie to the Catholike faithe No otherwise therfore maist thou haue entrie into the Church than if thou shalte promise that thou wilt persist in that saâ—…h and defende that Church with all thy force which being receiued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this daye and dispersed throughe oute all the world But if it shall chance thou doest otherwise thou shalt not refuse but shalt go from the right of thy kingdome and promise to lead a priuate life here if the King Lucius make answere I am ready to acknowledge the ChristiaÌ„ faith but I neither promise that I will defend with my sword the Catholike faith neither will I for whatsoeuer I shall do giue ouer the righte of my kingdome Can the Bishop to this man thus affected minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and deliuer the sacrament of thanksgiuing can he therfore be a member of Christ that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him Your example and your question hang not together M. Saunders to your last question I answere that he can not be a member of Christe that will not submit his Scepter vnto Christ and refuseth to serue him But what is this question to your former question of submitting himselfe to the Byshop to depose him there is greater difference betwixte Christs Scepter and the Bishops Crosier than betwéene the Kings Crowne and the Bishops Miter But to come to your examples which drawe somewhat nerer to your purpose First trow you that these two examples of King Lucius and Clodoueâ—… will answere al thâ—…se and serue for all Kings I suppose they will not â–ª For these kings receiued Baptisme being of lawfull yeares and â—…ight haue made a voluntarie graunt to all that you prâ—…suppose your Bishops would haue demauÌ„â—…ed of theÌ„ so might haue snarled themselues in their briers and bondage But yeutaÌ„ not presuppose the like of infants especially of those infantes whose parents were Christâ—… Princes before who are baptized long before they are kings And althoughe they might order y child as ill as they ordered y other that â—…o rawly came to ChristeÌ„dome yet would not the parentes being alreadâ—…e Christened bring their Children in such bondage Neither could they demand it of a childe which was not a king nor perchaunce borne to a kingdome but gat it afterwarde by prowesse Secondly these be but vaine presupposals false For although Clodouenâ—… was Baptized by Remigius yet was not Lucius baptized by Eleutherius but either by the two preachers which Eleutherius sent or as it rather appéereth by the content of Eleutherius letters King Lucius was himselfe a Christian before therfore Eleutherius sent them not as Legates nor sent any such conditions by them nor any lawes or ceremonies of the Church of Rome but referreth y King to the word of God and was so farre from taking vpon him to be gods Uiâ—…ar ouer the King his kingdome that in plain words be yeldeth that authoritie title to King Lucius And as for Clodoueus though he call Remigius his patrone author of the discipline and ReligioÌ„ bicause he baptized him in structed him therin yet as for any such couenant or condition not to admit him to the faith of Christ except he woulde sweare before hand that if he would not defend the Bishops their faith he shoulde forsake his kingdome and promise to leade a priuate life Remigius conditioned no such thing no more than Elentherins before had done to Lucius For when Clodoneus being an infidel and yet hauing a Christian wise which made him somâ—…hat more enclinable being in battaile against the Almaines making his vowe to Christ in his distresse to receiue the ChristiaÌ„ faith if he should get the victorie which being obtained and he returned home with triumph willing to receiue the faith of Christ his wise made hast to Remigius the Bishop of Remes Lxhorting him saith â—…onius forthwith to come to the Court that while he wauered yet in suspence he would open to him the way of truth that leadeth to God for she said she feared least his minde puffed vp with prosperitie while he knoweth not the giuer of these things he should contemne him For things that fall oute as we would haue them fall out of our minde likewise in continuance of ryme more easilie than those things that fall out otherwise than we would The Bishop hasteneth to obey the admonishing of the Religious woman He presenteth himself to the sight of the King that nowe a prettie while had aboade his coÌ„ming The faith is declared by the Bishop the meanes of beleuing is taught The King also acknowledging the faith deuoutly promiseth that he wâ—…l serue one god As for the peeres of his Realme armie he will proue his opinion which what it is of this matter he affirmeth that so muche more denoutly they wold submit their neckes to Christ how much more they should see theÌ„selues to be prouoked with
VVorcester 36. b. 37. a An Inuectiue against heresie that it openeth the truth 37. a A comparison of the ignoraunce of thâ—… greatest learned men among the Papists in king Henryes dayes and the cleare knowledge that the Louanists haue nâ—…we 38 a. b. Master Feckenham his repentaunce for confessing the Kings title of supremacie 38. b. A biâ—… quarell at the Bishop for calling this sentence of the Booke of Wisedome In 〈◊〉 ammam non introâ—…it sapientia A sentence of the holy ghost Whervpon he concludeth a discorde in the Protestants writing 39. a. Where he should replie 39. b. 40. a To the Bishops answere he aunswereth not a worde but séeketh starting holes out of another aunswere that he threapeth on the Bishop to haue made before to chalenge him thereby with falshood as being variable in his aunsweres and so aunswering nothing runneth quite from the matter In steade of aunswere in the Bishops argument out of Deut. 13. and. 17. he runneth to a néedelesse proufe that Heresie is a very Idoll And once againe that we haue no warrant by act of Parliament for mariage of ministers for oure doctrine of the Sacrament for our wrytinges and preachings 42. a. When he should aunswere in the ensample of Iosue he is in hand with M. D. Harding and the Apologie with M. Dorman and M. Nowell quarelling for ciphers in misquoting for 〈◊〉 maâ—…er Dâ—…rmans theâ—…tes for laye mens presumption to go before Priestes for altering religion at the conuocation 46. b. Challenging the Bishop for running at randon from the marke and willing the Reader to regarde the marke he setteth vp of purpose ix false markes nothing nere the issue in question betwene the Bishop and M. Feck and vnder pretence of those nine markes runneth himselfe at randon into aboue xix impertinent matters of the Iewes acknowledging one high Priest of altering religion of the auncientnesse of Poperie 53. b. of the Priests othe on their Priesthood of abandoning the Pope and general councels of the authoritie of the Scriptures of the determining heresies by them of foraigne authoritie of bestowing ecclesiastical liuings Of Bishops letters patents of restraining their iurisdiction of inhibiting from preaching of payment of tenthes and first fruites of the priuilege of the heathen priestes of Egypt of writing the Queenes title of Priestes receiuing the othe of exempting the nobilitie of a woman Prince and in the ende of all this of Robin Hood and little Iohn and bicause he shooteth at these markes he sayth he hath shot awrie like a blinde man. 54. a. b. 55. a. Where he shoulde directly aunswere to that wherewith master Feckenham is by the Bishop charged for refusing all the prooues of the olde Testament to play the part of a Donatist Master Stapleton snatcheth herevpon occasion to runne out from his matter and to gather togither first a great rabble partly of heresies partly of no heresies to charge vs withall and then trauayleth to heape vp a number of poynts labouring thereby to proue the Protestants to be Donatists medling by this occasion with euery matter that he thought he might enlarge his booke withall with sectes and diuisions with bragging of multitudes with viciousnesse of life of tying the Church to this or that place of corrupting the fathers of visions and myracles of vaunting of Councels of a generall Apostacie of beginning and continuance of doctrine and Bishops of complayning of good Princes and praysing of ill of defacing the Sacraments and incredible crueltie of the Emperours lawes and the holye Gospels of murthering others and themselues of false martyrs all which sauing his long discourse of thrée or foure pages agaynst master Foxes booke which I remitte to him to be answered is aunswered for his importunitie sake though much of it be more fullie aunswered by others and also quite extrauagant from the matter in hande 57. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. Fol. 65. He chalengeth vs to be blasphemers he is in hande with contempt of the number of the sacraments with prouinciall and generall Councels with another fling at M. Foxes booke of Martyrs about the articles of Sir Thomas Hitton priest 〈◊〉 Sir Iohn Oldcastle Knight the Lorde of Cobham for putting of heretikes to death for compelling to receyue the fayth for manslaughter 66. a. b. Once againe he is in hande with his olde quarell of Images Idols and the Crosse. 68. b. Where he should aunswere to the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus he letteth them all alone and medleth with other matters nothing to the purpose as with Michael Paleologus Emperour of Greece with thalenging the Grecians for heresies with the heresie of the holy ghost to proceede onely from the father and not from the sonne with the Councell at Lions with the accordment betwene the Grecians and the Latine Church with their reuolt from the same with the spite of the Greeke Bishops From thence he runneth to other matters rayling on the Authour of the Homelie agaynst Idolatrie for calling Michael â–ª Theodorus about his depriuing and funerals that the question of Images was not mooued at the Councell of Lions of the setting vp and continuance of Images in the Greeke Church From hence he runneth to quarelling about the names of Valence and Valentinian and of his and Theodosius his lawe agaynst the picture of the Crosse. Against Bishop Iewel for citing it out of Crinitus simplie as the same Crinitus doth Hereon he entreth into a generall inuectiue agaynst the reading of the Homelies nowe â—…et forth and falleth in praysing of the Homelies in the Popish Church 76. b. 77. a. In steade of aunswering to the Bishops argument out of Saint Paule and Chrysostomes allegation thereon he is in hande againe with master Foxe for setting forth the doyngs of Doctour VVesalian with the Bishop to be but a poore Clearke with the aduauncing of Bishop VVhite and Bishop Gardiner with chalenging the Bishop to be of the Grecians opinion agaynst the proceeding of the holye Ghost from the father and the sonne with the decaye of the Empyre of Greece with a comparison betwéene the decay of Hierusalem besieged at Easter by the Romaynes and the Captiuitie of Constantinople besieged at VVhitsontide by the Turkes with the poynting of Gods â—…ynger wyth the Realmes of Fraunce Scotlande Germanie with the vaunting of his owne plaine and true going to woorke with Michaell and Andronicus once againe and none of all these things eyther aunswering the Bishop or perteyning to the question Last of al where he taketh on him to set downe the state of the question he setteth vp many newe questions neyther in hand betwéene the Bishop and master Feckenham nor any whit defended by vs but méere slaunders of the Papistes of the Princes preaching the woorde of God ministring the Sacraments binding and losing c. Thus handsomely hath he kept himselfe close to the matter and yet euer he crieth haue an eye to the marke and willeth vs still to call for the question and yet himselfe hath thus