except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
tēporall 249 The Prince charged to plant the faith and rule the church 250 The King of Englands charge 250 The Prince charged with Godlinesse 251 Their power is equall with their charge 252 The sword prohibited vnto Bishops 253 Only princes beare the sworde 254 The words of the oth 254 Supreme concluded out of saint Paul 255 The Apostles subiect vnto Princes 255 Suffering is a sign of subiection 256. The direction of the sword 257 Who shall direct the sword 257 No man Iudge of trueth 258 Discerners of trueth 259 The people are charged to discern the truth 260 The people must discerne teachers and try spirits 261 We be not bound to the Bishops pleasure 262 Wherein Bishops are superiour to Princes 263 The function not the person 264 The priests person subiect to the Prince 264 The right direction vnto trueth 265. The best direction for Princes 266. Who shall direct Princes 267. Successiō is no sure directiō 268 Bishops may erre 26◠Councels may erre 270 276 Number no warrant for trueth 270 Councels haue erred 272 Consent without staggering due only to the Scriptures 276 The Pope may erre 277.304.311 Christ praied for Peter 278 Peter failed in faith 279 Christ praied for all 280 No one set ouer the Church 281 The Romane Church may faile in faith 283 Cyprians place discussed 283 The misconstering of Non potest 284 Cyprians opinion of the Romanes 286 S. Pauls warning to them 286 S. Ierome misconstered 287 The Romanes may erre 288 Moses chaire might erre 289 The high Priests did erre 290 Christs promise to his Church 291 The godly may erre 292 S. Iohns words abused 293 The whole Church erreth not 294. The Iesuites condemned for flatterers by their owne fellowes 294 What Popes haue erred 296 Liberius an heretike 297 Honorius an heretike 299 Vigilius an heretike 301 Anastasius an heretike 302 Shiftes to saue the Popes from erring 303 Caiphas free from error 305 Caiphas as free from error as the Pope 305 The Popes tribunall hath erred 306 Vaine mockeries of the Iesuites to saue the Popes error 309 Their owne Church confesseth the Pope may erre 310 The iudge of faith must not erre 312 The contents of the third part The Pope hath no power to depriue the Prince 314 What God hath allowed to Princes the Pope cannot take from them 317 Princes not depriuable by the Pope 318 The Prophets deposed no Princes 319 Saul reiected by God not deposed by Samuell 320 Saul depriued of the succession not of the possession of the Crowne 321 Dauid annointed to succeed 325 Ieroboam plagued not deposed 325 Prophets may threaten 326 Vzziah stricken with the leprosie not assaulted with violence 327 Lepers seuered from mens cōpany but not disherited 328 Vzziahs pride 329 Athalia slaine 329. Achab reprooued not deposed 330. Elias induced the King and the people to kill Baals prophets 331 Elias no executioner 332 Fier frō heauen at Elias word 332. Iehu willed by God to take the sworde 333 Elizeus deposed no King 333 No Scripture confirmeth the deposition of princes 334 Kinges holde their dignities of God not of priests 335 The priest no Iudge of the princes crowne 336 The priest to direct the Iudge to decide 338 Princes not subiect to priestes 339. Princes depriued priests 340 Princes brake couenaunts with God and yet were not deposed 341 No prince deposed in the olde testament 341 Christ is King of Kinges but not the pope 342 Christ haue many prerogatiues which the pope may not haue 343 Binding of sinnes not of Scepters 344 Depriuing is not feeding 345 Temporall reuenge not lawfull for priests 445 Heretikes must not be saluted yet princes must be obeyed 346. Heretiks must haue their du 347 Society not duty prohibited 348 Wee must shunne the wicked but not disobeie the magistrate 348 Excommunication inferreth no deposition 350 The Iesuites claime temporall and externall power for the pope 350.351 God not Paul stroke Elima◠blinde 352 What is ment in S. Paul by deliuering vnto Sathan 353 The Apostles laid violēt hands on no man 354 The goods and bodies of men are Cesars right 355 Priests no Iudges of temporall thinges but makers of peace betweene brethren 357 The temporall and spiritual distinct regiments 358 The Ciuill state directed not punished by the spiritual 359 Princes committed to the preachers charge not subiected to the popes court 360 Princes may be put in mind of their duties 361 Nazianzene subiect to the prince 361 Howe the preacher correcteth 362 Howe manie degrees the pope will be aboue the prince 363 If he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnick 364 Ethnicks must not be deposed 364 The Church cannot depose the prince 365 The Church submitted herselfe to Princes 366 The Church hath no commissiō to depose Princes 367 The church with thē is the Pope 367 Neuer king obayed the Popes Censure 368 The Church neuer decreed that Popes should depose Princes 368 Impertinent examples 369 Excommunication is not deposition 370 The fact of Babylas 371 Babylas died vnder Decius 371 The Prince penitent for his sins 372 S. Ambrose and Theodosius 373 Anastasius excommunicatiō vncertaine 374 Michaels excommunication vnproued 374 Lotharius mistaken 375 Of seuen examples but one proued 375 S. Austens opinion of such excommunications 376 The end of excommunication ceaseth in Princes 376 The Church praied for tyrants 377 The Church praied for the welfare of hereticall Princes 378 The Church praied for Constantius 378 A lustie leape from the keyes to the sword 379 Rebellion against Princes defended to be iust and honourable warres 380 Graund theeues murtherers 381 The Popes warrant to rebels 381 The Pope cānot warrant Rebellion 382 Scriptures abused to serue Rebellion 383 Asa remoued his mother from her dignitie 383 The Iudiciall part of Moses Law is ceased 384 The execution of Moses Law cōmitted to none but to the magistrate 384 No reuenger but the Magistrate 384 Phinees fact had Moses warrant 385 Moses a magistrate and no priest after Aarons order 386 Moses a Leuite but no priest 387 Moses a Prophet no sacrificing Priest 388 And so was Samuel 389 Many offred that wer no priests 389 Sauls sin was infidelitie 389 The Priest did not appoint the wars 390 The warres of Abiah 391 Edome Libnah reuolting 391. Ten tribes might fight with two 392 The Church of Christ neuer alowed rebellion 392 S. Basil alowed not the people to rebel for his defence 393 S. Ambrose alowed no tumult at Millan in fauour of him 394. Athanasius did not stirre Constance against Constantius 396 Athanasius neuer spake euill of Constantius 396 Athanasius neuer disobaied Cōstantius 397 Athanasius would not haue the people rebel for his cause 398 The tumult at Alexandria for Peter against Lucius 399 Atticus harboured strangers but not armed subiects against their Princes 400 The Persian war was lawful 400 What Leo requested of the Emperour 401 The Christians were subiect to Iulian though he were an
against our Soueraigne you neither may nor doe refuse to bee commenders assisters perfourmers of his vngodlie purposes tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme and disturbance of her Maiesties Title State and wel-fare Which tyranous vsurpation in him and trayterous affection in you no Father that is Catholicke did euer allowe no Prince that is auncient did euer endure And as for your skattered and maymed examples which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning Phi. If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie yet I trust they proue that wee may sende or goe to Rome to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion and to bee relieued in times of affliction which is all wee require Theophil Counsell in cases of fayth and comforte in dayes of daunger bee no signes of authoritie but dewties of Charitie neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome but common to the whole Church of God and therefore if your examples reache no farther but that Princes haue beene sometimes aduised and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull Phi. What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore Theo. Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ which at that time when these godly men wrote and repayred to Rome was neither attempted by him nor mistrusted by them So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church or contempt to the state because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members not as presumptuous heades of the Church and liued as subiectes not as superiors to the Prince you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome but you must do violent wrong to them both to the Prince by renouÌ„cing your subiection breaking your oth and bearing armes against your liege Ladie when the Pope commaundeth to the Church in thinking teaching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes vpholder of all truth expounder of all Scriptures Confirmer of all Councelles dispenser with all lawes yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters that any waie touch or concerne Religion Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring are so far from allowing that we need no better witnesse to confute you with Phi. You doe but iest I dare saie Theo. Examine the particulars you shall finde them make cleane against you or at least nothing for you The Bishop of Rome you saie gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it afterward in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme from the which though some of you be lightly stept I trust in God the worst your holie Father can doe shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was infected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme as manie other places then were I finde it reported in the storie of Bede that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both or from either I finde it not yea rather certaine it is the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes chosen in a Synode by the generall liking to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error which also they did with great celeritie So that of those foure recoueries to the faith which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome the last is the present estate which we striue for the two next be false the first is only left that furthereth your conclusion but little Phi. Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened Theo. I will denie nothing that is true presume you no more than you proue and we shall soone growe to an ende Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe that him selfe and his people might be baptised and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue Phi. There was somewhat in it that Lucius sent so farre Theo. This Realme was then rude learning here skant religion newly sprong no where setled Coilus his father brought vp at Rome from a child and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire and no place neere home so famous well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome What maruaile then if Lucius so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will Phi. I say not so Theo. Then this example maketh litle for you which be sent hither not only without the Princes leaue but against her liking and Lawes to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her and to prepare them for a farther purpose Gregories fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse For Augustine and his felowes notwithstanding they were sent from Rome as you are and taught nothing but subiection and obedience to Princes which you doe not yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence They came not in disguised as you doe they lurked not in corners they traueled not by night they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince the Bishop of Rome that sent them neither stirred rebellion nor inuaded king Edelberts dominion And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene which they being straungers did not to an heathen king yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects and Gregorie sent others to tâ—â—e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
Upon whose cōplaint the good prince wrote this to the whole councel Your synod hath decreed I know not what in a tumult vprore whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder for hatred against your fellow bishops but the diuine prouidēce wil I doubt not scatter the mischief of your contentiō make it plain in our sight whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your doings for so doth it seem good expedient to me to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you that as many of you as were present at the councel of Tyrus without delay repair to the place of our abode there to giue accompt how sincerely soundly you haue iudged and that before me whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God in these cases The prince summoned the coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle gaue charge to the parties accused to come before thē sharply rebuked the bishops assembled in this synod cōmāded thē to come corā nobis rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt assured thē that he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē church-matters not as a violēt vsurper but as gods minister ordained to y◠intēt which the catholik bishops that took part with Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal the rest y◠deposed him neither did nor durst deny So the Const. was both an orderly refuge for Athan. a lawful cōtroler of the coūcel of Tyrus notwtstāding the crimes obiected there to Macarius Atha were spiritual to wit the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table dashing in peeces the mystical cup burning the sacred books vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery with many such hainous offences leudly deuised by their accusers not any way proued against them yet taken by their aduersaries then iudges for iust matter to condemne them In restoring Arius the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by the crafty dissembling of heretikes yet thereby may well appeare what authority this Prince claimed to command Bishops release the rigor of their ecclesiastical cēsures Thus stood the case The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him If Arius saith he consent to the Nicene coūcel I wil admit him to my sight send him home with honor Arius his adherents accepting the cōdition were willed to put their faith in writing with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them aduertising his Maiesty by writing the heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate Constantine tooke this exception in such il part that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short sharp terms Knowing our pleasure WE CHARGE YOV that you suffer freely those that will to returne to the church For if I learn that you forbid or exclude such as would gladly be partakers of the church I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV This saith Socrates he wrote minding to profit the church end al dissētion but it fel out otherwise for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius lack of Athanasius then banished that Cōstantine doubting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith which he did there in presence very readily but slily The Prince musing at it exacted an oth that he took likewise Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther COMMANDED ALEXANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM the next day TO THE COMMVNION which God preuēted with a suddain shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended periury then freshly cōmitted Now chose whether you wil affirm that Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous imperious in the church of Christ against al reason good order or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions othes of such as they suspected in religion to restore those that were deposed to their ancient places vpon their submission and command the chiefe Bishops for so were both these the first of Alexandria the second of Constantinople to receiue such as had purged themselues in the Princes iudgement and presence to the communion Phi. Uengeāce frō heauen decided the case with Athanasius against Arius Th. No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling than he did before with his open rebelling but what is this to Constantine whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bettered We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God iugling with man we detest that mōster as much as you but we lay forth the steps of Cōstātine seeking hoping his reformatiō to the end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith baptisme Churches and bishops but also touching heretiks Apostataes Iewes and Infidels In his Authentikes he maketh many new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS in what places by what persons with what lowdnes of voice they shal be ministred OF SYNODS when they shall be kept what things shal be reformed in them according to the sacred Canons and his Princely lawes also what Canons of Councels shall stand in the same strength with his Lawes OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES guiding the maner of their erection the number of their Clerkes their expences suites and priuileges OF MONKS who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall what rules they shall keepe for praier diet rest and such like dueties of life to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall belong OF PRIESTS DEACONS AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church limiting their age condition learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge their diligēt sober and chast behauiour afterward OF BISHOPS howe they shall bee chosen in what sort their soundnes in faith skill in common prayer and clearnes from all iust accusations prohibited by the sacred rules or lawes imperiall shal be throughly sifted before they may bee confirmed what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories what superior iudges they themselues shall haue from whom they shal not appeale what punishment they shall
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
els you make a madde construction But if you meane that Princes should not rule Bishops in ecclesiastical causes iudgements that is not worke them nor force them against the witnes of their heartes and consciences to follow the willes and appetites of Princes as Constantius did by the report of Athanasius in this place then the wordes which you bring be very true but nothing pertinent to this question The ruling then of Bishoppes and sitting as president of ecclesiasticall iudgements which Constantius vsed and Athanasius reproued was nothing elss but a wilfull contempt in himselfe of the faith and Canons of the Church and a furious compulsion of others to make them determine what hee listed and condemne whom him pleased without respect of trueth and against all order of common iustice Phi. This is your gloze which wee doe not beleeue Theo. Your owne witnesses say the same whom you may not well discredite Phi. Which of them Theo. Athanasius and Hilarie Phi. Where say they so Theo. Not farre from the places which your selfe alleage The whole Epistle of Athanasius which you quote is a large repetition of yâ— tirannous words and deedes of Constantius touching causes ecclesiasticall The first booke of Hilarie against Constantius the first I meane as they nowe stande in order though the last in time as they were written doeth handle the same argument Reade either of them you can not choose amisse Let passe the horrible persecution raysed by Constantius wherein the Pagans were set to inuade the Churches of Christians and to beate the people with staues and stones the Bishops Priests and Monkes were bound with chaynes and scourged with roddes the women were haled by the hayre to the iudgement seate the virgins were tosted by the fire and whipped with Prickles others were banished strangled trampled to death vnder feete and their limmes and ioyntes euen torne and rent asunder after they were dead in so much that Athanasius is fayne to crie out who was not amazed at these things who would giue them the name of Ethnicks much lesse of christians who will thinke them to haue the conditions of men and not rather of beastes who perceiued not the Arrians to bee crueller than beasts The straungers standing by yea the Ethnicks detested the Arians as Antichristes and butchers of men O new found heresie which in villanies and impieties hast put on the fulnes of the Diuell howe great so euer hee bee let passe I say these thinges and come to his behauiour in matters and causes ecclesiasticall Paulinus Lucifer and other Bishoppes being called before him the Emperour commaunded them to subscribe against Athanasius and to communicate with the Arrians they marueiling at this strange endeuor answering that the ecclesiastical Canons would not suffer them so to doe hee straightway replied AT QVOD EGO VOLO PRO CANONE SIT ita me loquentem Syriae episcopi sustinent aut ergo obteÌ„perate aut vos quoque exules esrote LET MY WIL BE TAKEN OF YOV FOR A CANON the Bishoppes of Syria content themselues with this speach of mine Therefore doe as I will you or depart into banishment And when the Bishoppes held vp their hands to God and with great libertie proposed their reasons shewing him that the kingdome was not his but Gods of whom he receiued it and that it was to bee feared lest hee that gaue it would speedyly take it from him also setting before him the day of iudgement and aduising him not to subuert ecclesiasticall order nor to mingle the Romane Empire with the constitutions of the Church nor to bring the Arrian heresie into the Church of God he woulde neither heare them nor permit them to speake but greeuously bending his browes for that they had spoken and shaking his sword willed them to be caried away This was Constantius manner in conuenting Bishoppes and thus hee peruerted the fayth and good order of Christes Church vppon a selfe wil subiecting all Lawes both diuine and humane to his eger and erroneous fansie And who seeing him thus to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes president of ecclesiasticall iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that desolation of abomination foretold by Daniel Phi. You put thus to the text which Athanasius hath not Theo. But the right meaning of Athanasius woordes must bee gathered hy that which goeth before and followeth after Intelligentia dictorum sayth Hilarie ex praecedentibus consequentibus expectetur The vnderstanding of any speach must bee taken from the precedents and consequents The conclusion is not proued but by the premisses and therefore must bee measured by the premisses Athanasius bringeth many particulars to shewe in what sort Constantius ouer-ruled the Bishoppes and preferred his owne will before all constitutions and Canons of the Church and then inferreth Who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes and president of ecclesiasticall iudgements in that â—ort as hee doeth would not pronounce him to be Antichrist Now in what sort he did it the whole Epistle besides doeth declare thither must you repaire if you will see howe Constantius behaued himselfe in ecclesiasticall causes and consequently what thinges Athanasius and the rest misliked in him Phi. Howe did Constantius behaue himselfe say you Theo. That is worth the searching By that you shal see what cause Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius had to reproue him Phi. Say no more than you iustly proue Theo. No more shall bee sayde than your owne witnesses report I hope you will take them for direct and true deponents Phi. I doe not mistrust them Theo. Then heare them There were fiue principall points wherein Constantius dealt very intemperately wickedly as the writings of Athanasius and Hilarie doe testifie The often altering of the fayth the wresting from Synodes what hee would the banishing of Bishoppes vpon false accusations the intruding of others in their places against all order and the forcing of all sorts to communicate with the Arrians Of his altering the fayth Hilarie thus complayneth Fayth is come nowe to depend rather on the tyme than on the Gospel Our state is dangerous miserable that we haue nowe as many fayths as wils and as many doctrines as manners whiles faiths are either so written as we list or so vnderstood as we will We make euery yere and euery moneth a faith and still wee seeke a fayth as if there were no faith This O Constantius would I fayne knowe of thee what fayth at length thou beleeuest Thou hast changed so often that now I knowe not thy fayth That is hapned vnto thee which is wont to follow vnskilfull buylders euer disliking their own doings that thou stil pullest downe that which thou art stil setting vp Thou subuertest the olde with newe and the newe thou rentest in sunder with a newer correction and that which was once corrected thou condemnest with a second correction O thou wicked one what a mockerie doest
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
Then I graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion Theo. You graunt it as an euident trueth confirmed by the Scriptures confessed by the fathers reported by the Stories of the Church and infinitly repeated in the lawes and edicts of religious and auncient Emperours made for persons and causes ecclesiasticall Or if you doubt any part of this diuision haue recourse to the textes places before produced and if euery part be not fully proued refuse the whole Phi. I see they did and therefore I resolue my selfe they might commaund in those cases Theo. As well Bishops as others Phi. God forbid Princes should commaund Bishops in matters of religion Haue you forgotten what Osius saide to Constantius Do not commaund vs in this kinde Theo. Osius and others were commaunded by Constantius to condemn Athanasius against all order of equitie and their certaine knowledge of his innocencie For Osius was present and president in the Councell of Sardica where the cause of Athanasius was fully debated by the consent of both Emperours East and West and his accusers proued to bee wicked slaunderers and in that case he might iustly say to Constantius Commaund vs not in this kind or in these things but learne the trueth of them rather at our hands that were by when these matters were narowly sifted and Athanasius clearly discharged from all that could be saide against him And what if Osius had not limited his wordes to these particular respects as in sight he doth shall one poore place thinke you beare downe al the proofes examples and authorities that I haue shewed you to the contrarie where religious and auncient Emperours appointed prescribed commanded Bishops yea the chiefest Bishops in matters of doctrine and discipline Constantine prescribed the bishops what was profitable for the Church and commaunded the Councel of Tyrus to discusse the crimes obiected to Athanasius and threatned to banish him if hee failed to present himselfe before the Synode to teach him what it was to withstand the precept of the chiefe ruler defending the trueth And vpon complaint made by Athanasius against them hee sent for the whole Councell with this commaundement You must all of you resort hither to shewe the reason of your doings and to giue accompt howe sincerely and soundly you haue iudged and that before mee whom you shall not denie to bee Gods syncere minister and when Arius should be restored this was the stile that he vsed to Athanasius knowing our pleasure We charge you to suffer such as will to returne to the Church and after commaunded Alexander Bishoppe of Constantinople to receiue Arius to the communion Valentinian the elder rehearsing the Nicene fayth in his Edict added Our power hath commaunded the same to bee preached And when the people of Millan cried to haue Ambrose for their Bishop though hee were not yet baptized the same prince commanded he should be presently baptized and consecrated notwithstanding the Canons were strong against it S. Paul seemeth not willing that a nouice should be a Bishoppe Gratian commanded the Arrian Bishoppes to bee thrust from their Churches and by vigor of his Princely Lawes depriued the Bishoppe that rebaptized of his Priestly function Theodosius the elder commanded the followers of his Edict Bishops and others to be counted Christian Catholikes and for the rest that beleeued otherwise he sayd Propelli iubemus wee commaunded them to bee driuen from their Churches and when Demophilus a Bishoppe refused to embrace the Nicene fayth the Emperour in his owne person replied then I commaunde thee to forgoe thy Churches It well be seemed a religious Prince sayth Gregorie to commaunde Bishoppes in such things And Charles appointing the Bishoppes what doctrine they should teach sayth This we charge and enioyne you the more precisely because we know that false teachers shall come in the later dayes And for the reformation of certaine abuses in the Church hee keepeth this tenor of speach Know ye sacred fathers this must be forbidden in your Diocesses The rest of the Lawes Edicts and precepts of Godly Princes for causes ecclesiastical which I before alleaged in no small number doe they not either comprehend al men and by consequent Bishoppes or else directly and expressely commaunded Bishoppes by name If those bee not sufficient you may shall haue more Theodosius the younger sent his letters to the Patriarke of Alexandria for the seconde Councel of Ephesus with these wordes Wee decree that the most holy Bishoppes meeting together this vayne doubt may bee discussed and the true Catholike fayth confirmed Therefore Your holines bringing with you tenne of the most reuerend Metropolitanes that bee within your prouince and tenne other holy Bishoppes well accompted of for their learning and conuersation shall hasten with all speede to meete the rest at Ephesus by the first of August next no Bishoppe besides the foresaide troubling the sacred Synode If any Bishoppe faile to come to the place prefixed at the time appointed hee shall haue no excuse neither with GOD nor with vs. As for Bishoppe Theodorete whom wee commaund to attend at home on his owne Church wee determine that hee shall bee none of your assemblie vnlesse the whole councell thinke good to haue him one But if any dissent We commaund that the Synode sit without him and dispatch those thinges which we haue appointed them And in his second letters to the same Bishoppe Because wee suspect that some of Nestorius fauourers will doe their best to be present at this Councell therefore wee thinke needefull to aduertise you and the whole Synode that not onely in respect of Theodorete but of all others which haue ought to do in your Councell we giue you the preeminence and chiefe authoritie And those that adde or diminish any thing to or from the Nicene fathers the fathers since that assembled at Ephesus Wee suffer them not to presume any thing in this sacred Synode but wil haue them subiected to your iudgement because wee haue appointed this Synode for that purpose In the very same councell hee likewise commaunded that those Bishoppes which not long before sate in iudgement vppon Eutiches should be present but silent and giue no voyces with the rest as iudges but expect the cōmon determination of all the rest of the sacred fathers And also commaunded that they should neither say neither do any thing in the sacred Councel vntill the right fayth were concluded Martian charged the 630. Bishops in the great Councell of Chalcedon that None of them should dare dispute of the natiuitie of our Lord and Sauiour Christ otherwise than the 318. fathers of Nice deliuered Eusebius Bishoppe of Dorilaeum at the same time put vp a supplication to Martian Valentinian the third against Dioscorus Patriarke of Alexandria with these wordes In most humble wise we beseech
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
determination of the second Nicene councell that images were louingly to be saluted imbraced kissed for so theÌ„selues expound the word AdoratioÌ„ which they vse was lesse pernicious than the former as tending rather to superstitious follie than to that sacrilegious impietie which after raigned in your schooles and yet that decision of theirs was nothing lesse than catholike no councell or father before them for the space of 790. yeares euer decreeing or defending any such thing in the church of God and the Bishops of England Germany France and Spaine forthwith contradicting confuting their presumption as vncatholike and your own schooles reuersing their assertion as voide of all truth for that no reasonlesse creature is capable of reuerence which yet that councell had allowed vnto images Painting of stories in the church is somwhat ancient but neither Apostâ—lik nor catholike It was receiued in some places vpon priuate mens affections as an ornament for their churches but vsed as altogither indifferent that is vrged on no man as a matter of religioÌ„ not only the whole church some huÌ„dreth yeares after Christ which yet was catholike wanted all such pictures but learned and godly Bishops without any suspition of eâ—rour or innouation traduced and repelled such paintings as things either superfluous or dangerous or both What accompt the councel of Eliberis Eusebius Epiphanius and Augustine made of pictures you heard before how Chrysostom Amphilochius Asterius and others esteemed them you may read in your owne books of Councels where the wicked superstitious vpholders of Images refute the CouÌ„cel of Constantinople but with shyfting lying most fit for the cause they tooke in hand To Epiphanius exhorting the Emperour not to bring Images into the Church no nor to tolerate them in priuate howsen adding this reason non enim fas est Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri sed per occupationem mentis it is not lawful for a ChristiaÌ„ to staÌ„d gazing with his eies but to haue his mind occupied they answer that this epistle was forged in Epiphanius name and that Epiphanius himself would neuer haue beene so bitter against Images The first is easilie sayd the second is falsely supposed without any proofe this epistle was auouched to be his in a Synod of 330. Bishops not loÌ„g before and Epiphanius is sharper against Images in his epistle to Iohn of HierusaleÌ„ which S. Hierom translated than he was in this which they disliked Eusebius dissuading the Empresse from regarding the painted Image of Christ with these words Quis igitur gloriae eiusmodi dignitatis splendores lucentes fulgurantes effigiare mortuis inanimatis coloribus vmbratili pictura posset who can resemble in deed and lifelesse colours with the shadow of a picture the shyning glittering brightnes of Christes glorie and dignitie is reiected as an heretike and condemned by those that liued many hundred yeres after him and were in credite or learning no way comparable to him Chrysostomes assertion Nos per scripta sanctorum fruimur praesentia non sane corporuÌ„ ipsoruÌ„ sed animaruÌ„ Imagines habentes we by writing enioy the presence of the sainctes not hauing any Images of their bodies but of their mindes Amphilochius protestation Non enim nobis sanctorum corporales vultus in tabulis coloribus effigiare curae est quoniam hijs opus non habemus we haue no care to resemble in colours the bodilie visages of the saincts because we haue no neede of them and Asterius admonition Ne pingas Christum in vestibus sed magis sumptu illo impensis pauperibus subueni paint not Christ in clothes or colours but rather relieue the poore with that expeÌ„ce charge they auoide as spoken by way of comparison not of illation as if meÌ„ in their comparisons did not speake truth affirme both partes as well as in their conclusions This was the skill esming of your late Nicene Synod to crie corruption on others when they themselues were most corrupt and with a shyft of words to decree that as Catholike which was repugnaÌ„t to the plaine precepts of God general iudgement of their forefathers in all ages and places before them For our parts we say with Origen Non igitur fieri id poterit vt Deum quis nouerit simulachris vt supplicet It can not be that a man should knowe God and bow him self to images and with Austen Let it be no Religion of ours to worship the workes of mens hands because the workmen that make them are the better of the twaine whom yet we may not worship The Law of God is so direct forbidding vs to bow to any Image similitude or likenes of any thing that no distinction can help you NotaÌ„da proprietas Deos coli ImagineÌ„ adorari quorum vtruÌ„que seruis Dei non conuenit Note sayth S. Hierom the proprietie of the speach Gods are worshipped Images are adored or bowed vnto whereof neither is fit for the seruants of God If you trust not the ancient fathers one of your own friends will tell you the same Non adorabis neque coles Inter quae distingue Non adorabis scilicet veneratio ne corporis vt inclinando eis vel genuslectendo Non coles scilicet affectione mentis Ad adorandum igitur colendum prohibitur Imagines fiers Thou shalt not adore them nor worship them Which are thus to be distiguished Thou shalt not adore them that is with any bodilie reuerence as bowing or kneeling to them Thou shalt not worship them with any deuotion of mind Images therefore are prohibited to bee either adored or worshipped Thus your owne fellowes were not so blind but they perceiued the strength and force of Gods commaundement to be such as we defend at this present against you And though he labor to shift off the matter with a rule of S. Augustine that the honor passeth from the signe to the thing signified yet he both missed himself and misconstred his author For S. Augustine in that place putteth a manifest bar against Images and precisely purposely excludeth them out of the number of signes which he meant to treat of when he gaue this rule His wordes are Qui veneratur vtile signum diuinitus institutum cuius vim significationemque intelligit non hoc veneratur quod videtur sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt He that reuerenceth a profitable signe ordayned by God the force and signification whereof he well vnderstandeth doth not renerence that which he seeth but rather that to which al such signes are to be referred This rule reacheth to no signes but to such as are ordained by Gods own institution which Images are not therefore are cleane without the coÌ„pas of S. Augustines speach Again the veneration here touched is not any worshipping or adoring the creatures which God vseth for signes but a
the bosome of the Catholike Church as you terme it to obay their Prince against the censures of your Church Phi. I haue hast in my way Theophilus and I haue said as much as I wil at this time Theo. I can hold you Philander no longer than you liâ—t but yet remember this as you ride by the way which I reiterate because both your Seminaries shall think the better of it that as many as you reconcile so long as you teach this for a point of faith that the Pope may depose Princes and must bee obayed in those his censures of all that will be Catholikes so many both heretikes against God and traytors against the Prince you hatch vnder the hoode of religion and also that the thinges now reformed in the Church of England are both catholik and christian notwithstanding your fierce bragges and fiery wordes lately sent vs in your RHEMISH Testament To the KING euerlasting immortall inuisible vnto GOD which is only wise be honour and praise for euer and euer Amen The speciall contents of euery part The contents of thâ— first part The Iesuits pretenders of obedience Pag. 2 The causes why they fledde the Realme 5 The proofes and places of their Apologie 7 Forcing to Religion 16 Two Religions in one Realm 21 Toleraunce of error 26 Toleraunce of error in priuate places and persons 27 Compulsion to seruice and Sacraments 29 Exacting the oth 30 Their running to Rome 35 This Lande receiuing the faith from Rome 40 Preachers sent from Rome with the Kings consent 41 Preachers not conspirators froÌ„ Rome 41 Howe the Fathers soughte to Rome 42.48 Athanasius at Rome 44 Chrysostomes request to Innocentius 51 A forged Bull against Arcadius 53. Chrysostomes banishment 55 How Saint Augustine sought to Rome 56 How S. Basil sought to Rome 58 S. Ieroms letters to Damasus 60 The Rocke on the which the Church is built 62 S. Cyprian lately corrupted 65 Gratian suspected 66 Peters person laide in the foundation of the Church 67 Theodoret and Leo. 67 The Bishop of Rome resisted 68 Paul resisted Peter 69 Polycarpus resisted Anicetus 70 Polycarpus resisted Victor 70 Cyprian resisted Stephanus 71 Flauianus withstoode foure Bishops of Rome 72 Cyrillus withstoode the Bishop of Rome 72 Councels resisting the Byshop Rome 73 The Councell of Africa resisted the Byshop of Rome 74 Forged Decretals 76 The councel of Ephesus threatning the Legates of Rome 78 The Councell of Chalcedon against the Bishop of Rome 79 The Councell of Constantinople against the Bishoppe of Rome 81 CorruptioÌ„s in the CanoÌ„ lawe 81 The Brytons resisting the Bishop of Rome 82 The Grecians detesting him 83 The Germans deposing him 84 His owne Councels depose him 85. Fraunce resisting the Pope 92 Paris appealeth from him 94 The french King resisting the Pope 95 The Kinges of England against the Pope 97 Our resistaunce more lawefull than theirs 104 Peters dignitie not imparted to the Pope 104 S. Ieroms praise of Rome 105 The manners of Rome since his time 105 The manners of Rome in his time 106 S. Cyprian forced to make for Rome 106 S. Augustine forced to make for Rome 107 From Peters seate is from Peters time 107 The intent of the Seminaries 108. High experiments of Popes 112 High experiments of the Popes clergie 114 The Iesuits slaunder England and Scotland 118 What the Iesuits worke teach in this land 119 The Pope succeedeth his Auncestors neither in seate nor beliefe 12â— The contents of the second part The Princes power to COMMAVND for trueth 124 Princes be gouernours of countries Byshops be not 127 Byshops by Gods lawes subiect to Princes as well as others 128. The Prince by Gods law charged with Religion 129 Princes may commaund for religion 133 Constantine commaunding for Religion 134 Constantius commaunding Bishops in causes ecclesiastical 135. Iustinian commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 137 Charles commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 139 The lawes of Charles for causes Ecclesiasticall 140 Ludoâ—ikes lawes for causes Ecclesiasticall 144 Ludouikes lawes visitors 144 What is ment by SVPREME 146. Supreme is subiect to none on earth 146 Princes subiect onely to God 147. Princes not subiect to the Pope 147. The Pope subiect to his Prince 148. Constantine superiour to the Pope in causes ecclesiastical 150 Emperours superiour to the pope in causes Ecclesiasticall 152 The Prince superiour to the Pope 160 Ieremies words expounded 160 How Prophets may plant and roote out kingdoms 161 Howe Kinges must serue the Church 162 How Byshops are to be obeied 164 How the Church is superiâ—ur to Princes 167 What is ment by the Church 168. The Prince not aboue the Church 171 Princes haue power ouer the persons of the Church 172 The woordes of S. Ambrose to Valentinian 173 The behauiour of S. Ambrose towards Valentinian 174 Valentinian refused to be iudge betweene Byshops 177 Valentinians fault 178 Theodosius searched and established the trueth 178 Princes decreeing for truth 179 Athanasius Osius Leontius 179 Athanasius reproued Constantius 180 Athanasius expounded 181 Why Constantius was reproued 182 Osius words examined 188 Leontius discussed 189 What Hilarie misliked in Constantius 190 Kings commended in the scriptures for medling with religion 191 Moses â—oshuaes example 192 King Dauids care for religioÌ„ 193 Princes charged with the whole law of God 194 Asa Iehosaphat Ezekiah perfourmed that charge 193 Manasses Idolatry repeÌ„tance 196 Iosiah reformed religion 197 Nehemiah correcteth the high Priests doings 197 Princes medled with religioÌ„ 198 Princes vsed to commaund for religion 198 God commaÌ„deth by their harts 199. Princes commanding for Religion 200 Princes haue ful power to command for trueth 202 Princes may prohibite and punish error 203 To commaund for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with Princes 204 To commaund Bishops for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with auntient Princes 206 The Iesuites purposely mistake the Princes supremacie 213 The Iesuits cauelling absurdities against the Popes power 221 This land oweth no subiection to tribunals abroade 228 This lande not subiect to the Popes tribunall 229 What subiection the Pope requireth 231 The Pope maketh it sacrilege blasphemie to doubt of his tribunall 231 A right Rhomish subiection 232 Patriarks of the west 233 Patriarks subiect to Princes 234 This Realme not in the Popes Prouince 135 The Patriarkeâ—dome dissolued 235 The words of the oth examined 236 It is easie to plaie with wordes 237 Princes gouerne with the sword Bishops do not 238 Princes only beare the sword in all spirituall things causes 238. Princes supreme bearers of the sword 240 Supreme gouernour displaceth not Christ. 241 Princes may not commaunde against the faith or Canons 242. Gregorie shamefully corrupted 243. Spirituall men aâ— matters 244. Carnall things called spirituall 245 Carnall thinges made spirituall to increase the Popes power and gaine 245 Carnall things made spirituall 246 Princes charged with spirituall things 247 Princes chiefely charged with things truly spirituall 247 Princes charged at Gods hands with things spirituall not
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
The Popes power ouer Princes vsurped Rom. 13. Supreme is a manifest deduction out of S. Paul Supreme ouer Persons not ouer things We may not limit where we will obey the sword where not Where they may commaund we must obey We may not resist them but with reuerence indure them though they coÌ„mand against God and his truth Heathen Tyraunts had power of the sword ouer Christ and his Apostles Christ submitted himselfe to the Magistrate So Paul Peter both did and taught 1. Pet. 4. Rom. 13. Whom we must indure in that which is euill those must we obey in that which is good Aug. Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 166. The summe of the doctrine which we teach concerning the Princes supremacie The Iesuites iestes wherewith they mocke the Reader THE DIRECTION of PRINCES VNTO TRVETH Princes must take good care to come by faithfull direction The right directors vnto truth must be discerned by their doctrine not by their dignitie No mortall man may Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. * Iohn 5. 8. De Nuptijs ad Valentin lib. 2. â—ap 33. Optat. lib. 5. ad â—ermenianum Iohn 17. Bishops no iudges of the word of God The church is not iudge of the Scriptures Iohn 10. * Iames 4. Aust. in Psal. 2. * Idem de vera religione ca. 31. * Idem confess lib. 13. cap. 23. * Contra Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. Idem Epist. 19. ad Hieronym Iudging taken for discerning Onely God must limit what is truth what error To discerne truth belongeth to all God willeth all men to trie spirites 1. Iohn 4. Matth. 7. And to discerne false teachers Iohn 10. The people must discerne teachers by their doctrine 1. Corinth 10. 1. Corinth 11. * Matth. 24. Colos. 8. Ephes. 5. 1. Iohn 3. * Heb. 5. 1. Corinth 14. Orig in Jeâ—â—â— Naue hom 2. The Fathers referred them selues to the iudgement of the hearers Ambros. Epi. li. 5. orat in Aux Luke 10. Matt. 10. The people haue libertie to discerne and charge to beware seducers Matth. 24. Matth. 23. The people not bound to beleeue the Pharisees doctrine except it accorded to the law of God Aug. in Iohan. tractat 46. Matth. 16. Ibidem vers 11â— 1. Iohn 4. 1. Thes. 5. Rom. 12. Philip. 1. 1. Corinth 2. The whole Scriptures giue the people leaue to discerne the truth and require them so to do Princes haue the same libertie to discerne trie spirites that priuate men haue The former precepts comprise the Prince aswell as the people Heb. 13. Vers. 7. No man bouÌ„d to the Preacher farther than he speaketh truth The Apostles tied to that condition 1. Pet. 1. * 1. Iohn 1. 1. Corinth 4. Galat. 1. The Angels themselues limited to that rule 1. Corinth 7. 1. Corinth 17. Chrysost. in 1. cap. 2. Epist. ad Timoth. hom 2. * Tertul. de praescript advers haereticâ—s * Chrysost. operis imperfect hom 20. in 7. ca. Mat. Much more teachers that are but seruantes of the law and therfore bouÌ„d vnto the law Princes must obey Bishops because they speak in Gods name and not in their owne Act. 20. Bishops haue commission to feede not to rule their flocks 1. Pet. 5. Iohn 21. They be superiour in teaching not in power to commaund and punish Their functioÌ„ is more perfect excellent because God worketh by their hands and mouthes Aug. contra Crescon lib. 4. cap. 6. Aug. in Psa. 10 In 1. cap. 2. epist. ad Tim. hom 2. De spiritu san lib. 3. cap. 19. 1. Corin. 1. 1. Corin. 3 The word sacramentes serue not to aduaunce the Preachers person The Preachers cal for subiection reuerence to their master not to themselues * 2. Corinth 4. * Mark 10. â— Corint 9. The trueth of God is tied to no certaine persons nor places Peters fayth is trueth in deede but that must be taken out of his owne writings not other mens reports No successour may be trusted against or besides the Apostles writings No poynt of fayth vnwritten Rom. 10. Basil. in sermone de fide Idem in Ethiciâ— definiâ— 8. Hilar. ad Constantium August Idem de Trinit lib. 9. Hieron aduersus Helnidium IdeÌ„ in Psal. 86. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haereticoâ— Idem aduersus HermogeneÌ„ Ambros. de virginibus li. 3. Ireneus lib. 3. cap. 1. Cyril de recta fide ad Reginas lib. 2. August de Pastoribus cap. 11. Idem contra literas Petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. Caus. 11. quaest 3. § si is qui preaest No person nor place may be trusted in matters of faith besides and without the scriptures The best direction for Princes is the word of God Psal. 118. Deut. 17. Deut. 12. Esai 8. Luk. 16. Hieron Cap. 1. in epist. ad Galatas Tertullian de praescriptionib Tertullian vâ— supra Heretikes therfore couet a shew of scriptures because they be the grouÌ„ds of all trueth No tribunall on earth to the which trueth is fastned Where trueth is in doubt the Church is in more doubt The shepheards voice is not knoweÌ„ by the sheepe but the sheep by hearing the sheepheards voice * Iohn 10. Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Succession is no sure direction vnto trueth Ireneus lib. 4. Cap. 43. Cap. 44. Cap. 45. Act. 20. Mat. 7. 2. Pet. 2. 2. Cor. 11. 2. Cor. 11. Bishops haue beene heretikes Bishops asseÌ„bled may erre as wel as Bishops seuered Mat. 18. Two or three haue the same promise of assistance that two or three huÌ„dred haue Councels may erre Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 5. * Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. * Euag. li. 3. ca. 4. Epist. 55 ad Proropium A generall Councel doth not differ froÌ„ a particular but only in number of persons and places Vide distinct 16 § sexta § primo * Tomo concil primo * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 2. * Idem li. 2. c. 36. Tomo concilior primo A generall Councel erring the Church doth not erre A Councell may be reuersed by the rest that be present or absent Sozo li. 1. ca. 23. Sozo li. 2. ca. 25. Sozo li. 4. ca. 9. Leo epist. 52. ad Anatholium Ibidem Their own fellowes haue consessed that general councels might er Panor de elect electi potestate ¶ significasti Panorm IbideÌ„ A generall councel is not the Church Pigh hierarch ecclesiast lib. 6. cap. 5 4. Pighius is earnest that general CouÌ„cels haue erred in decisioÌ„ of faithes Lib. 6. Cap. 7. Lib. 6. Cap. 13. August de baptist lib. 2 cap. 3. S. Augustine confesseth that councels may erre Ibidem The second Councell of Ephesus was generall * Astio. 1. * Euagrius li. 1. Cap. 10. Reperitur chalcedonens concil actio 1. Chalced. concil actio 1. Ecclesiasticall iudges are often deceiued Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 21. August epist. 167. August contra Maximinum lib. 3. cap. 14. Ibidem lib. 3 cap. 14. The Arrians not bound to the authoritie of the Nicene councel The Councell of Ariminum was generall Socrat. lib. 2.
to this infection might perceiue the way to recouer their former health temperatly that the enimy should not thinke himselfe rather illuded then aunswered Which if it please your most excellent Maiestie to like alow that it may passe to the hands of your people I trust in Christ that such as haue any feare of God before their â—yes and care of life to come will hold themselues satisfied and the rest be better aduised before they runne headlong into that extreeme perdition of bodie soule and horrible downefall of disobedience and infidelity to God and their Prince The king of kings and Lord of Lordes blesse and preserue your Maiestie and as hee hath begun a good and glorious worke in you and in this Realme by you so continue the same by lightening you with his holie Spirit and defending you with his mightie arme as hee hath doone from the daie that hee chose you to bee the Leader and Guider of his People that you maie long keepe them in trueth and peace by the assistaunce of his grace to the praise of his glorie increase of the Godlie and griefe of his and your enimies Euen so Lord Iesus Your Maiesties most humble and dutifull subiect THOMAS BILSON THE GENERALL CONTENTS of euerie part The first part Examineth all the proofes and places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aid the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergy The second part Prooueth the Princes supreme power to commaund for truth within her Realme and the Pope to haue beene a duetifull subiect to the Romane Emperors Ecclesiastical Lawes for eight hundred yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour iudge The third part Refelleth the Iesuits reasons and authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes the bearing of armes by subiects against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies and iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings Princes conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thousand yeres after Christ and none agnised by anie Christian Prince vntil this present day The fourth part Sheweth the reformation of this Realme to be warranted by the woord of God and the auncient faith of Christs Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to bee nothing lesse than Catholikes To the Christian Reader IT is some time since good Christian Reader that lighting on the Iesuits Apologie I receiued the same with purpose to refute it if the matter so imported Perusing it ouer I found it curiouslie penned with picked termes and beautified with plausible and popular persuasions reasons but as for substaÌ„ce or learning or weight of proofe I saw nothing in it that should occupie a meane Scholer the space of two daies Laying that booke therefore aside I determined at mine own choice and libertie to handle the matters there most impugned I meane the othe and the Princes supremacy in such sort as men of meane capacitie abused by their secret whisperinges and open raylings might plainly perceiue both the Princes power to commaund for truth to be lawfull and good and the Iesuits cauils impugning the same to be vaine and childish As I was in this resolution saw no cause for that I should refute no direct aduersarie to make more hast than both health which was not great businesse which I cannot want would suffer me there hapned an iniurie to bee offered to the inheritance of the College where I am by a false title deriued from before the foundation of the house and so strengthened on euery side with auncient deedes and euidence that the forgerie was hard to bee discerned and harder to be conuinced but by infinite searching in the muniments of many churches and Bishopricks as well as in our owne and re-examining sundrie large and laborious commissions which they had taken out before my time to testifie the keeping and iustifie the deliuering of those suspected deedes and ligiers To the deâ—ecting and impugning of this no person was or would be vsed I speake for the paines and not for the skill but my selfe the cause was so huge the comparing of the circumstances and contrarieties both of deeds and witnesses so tedious the proofe so perplexed and intricate and the daunger so neerely touched the whole state of the house I was forced for two yeares to lay all studies aside and addict my selfe wholy first to the deprehending and then to the pursuing of this falsehood No sooner had I breathed from this vnwoonted trauell and betaken my selfe to my former purpose but my happe was to light on the Iesuites Defence of English Catholikes not hauing the Authors name but in order of writing and phrase of speech resembling right D. Allen the maker of their Apologie Looking earnestly into the contents thereof I perceiued the pen-man to haue such confidence in his tongue that hee doubted not but to ouerrule the world with words his pretensed policies So far he wadeth in other mens causes and common wealthes So boldly he pronounceth what himselfe pleaseth of Popes and princes and of their titles Counselles Lawes and actions neither alloweth hee any man to bee religious or catholike but such as him-selfe liketh and euerie-where hee sheweth a speciall care to smooth and stroke his holy Fathers indeuors and censures actes and iudgementes warres and wickednesse with termes of the greatest deuotion and reuerence subiecting all things vnder his feete inuesting him with both swords and suffering no man king nor Cesar to haue assurance of honor or life longer than he kneeleth downe and adoreth the image of the beast In this maiestical course surrly conceit hee goeth on thinking he can captiuate kingdomes with the volubilitie and intemperauncy of his tongue which is so swift to furnish a lie that he disdaineth the basenesse plainesse of trueth The saucinesse and egernesse of that Defence I was then and am yet persuaded to ouerskip as hauing learned that princes affaires and actions are aboue my vocation and wholy without my profession neither doe I thinke it lawfull for priuate men rashly to speake or possible for them vprightly to iudge of Princes doinges vnlesse they be fully acquainted with the secretes and circumstances of the things which Princes vse not to commit to many nor to any but those that are of their counsell I therefore then did now do determine to leaue this peremptorie prater whosoeuer he be to his own vaine knowing that besides open rightes and titles secret preuentions are often vsed betweene Realmes and sometimes reuenges which Magistrates by lawful meanes may procure Onely the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all his skill learning
skirmish and arming your selues with three scriptures and seuen fathers you thinke to vanquish and ouerrunne the Princes power in causes ecclesiasticall but soft Sirs you mistake your weapons their force is not great The nation and kingdome sayth God to Sion that wil not serue thee shal perish The kingdome he sayth not the king but graunt it were directly spoken of kings what seruice that is which God requireth of kings if you doe not knowe S. Austen will tel you In this sayth he Kings serue God if their kingdomes they command that which is good and forbid that which is euill not in temporall affayres onely but in matters of religion also And againe Yee Kings serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. So that the cōmanding their people to reuerence the word and obey the will of God and the making of strait lawes to keepe men in the faith and Church of Christ that is I say the seruice which Princes owe to God and his Sion and which you deny lawful for them to medle with By the two next places of S. Paul you prone that Pastors Bishops be rulers of the Church That worde Rulers you catch hold of as if the wordes in S. Paul did not also signifie feeders and leaders which be the two signes and dueties of good shepheards and yet we neuer denied but the messengers and disposers of Gods mysteries by preaching the woord administring the sacraments and well vsing the keyes haue their internall and spirituall regiment ouer the soules and consciences as wel of Princes as others which is the true meaning of the place that you bring out of Nazianzene Athanasius Osius Leontius Hilarie and Ambrose sharply reproue Constantius Valentinian for taking vpon them to chaunge the faith abolish the godhead of Christ plainely told those Princes they were no iudges of faith nor arbiters of doctrine which was true which false neither might they so much as interpose their iudgement or authoritie whiles such cases were debated That very lesson haue wee from the beginning taught with our lippes sealed with our blood more stedfastly than you We neuer gaue prince nor Pope right to controle the trueth or reuerse the worde which God hath established in his Church and the constant auouching thereof against earthly States powers hath cost vs as you can not choose but knowe many thousande mens liues Yet this is no let but Princes as well as other priuate persons may trie spirits and beware false Prophets And this I trust you dare not impugne that Princes may doe that for Christ which you defend they must do for Antichrist graunt vs that we require no more Chrysostome is the last of the seuen Christ sayth he when he willed Peter to feede his sheepe cōmitted the charge of them to Peter Peters successors Meaning by Peters successors not onely the bishops of Rome but him selfe and all other Bishops as appeareth by his owne words in the same place This was Christes purpose at that time when he sayd feede my sheepe to teach Peter and the rest of vs howe well he loued his Church that therefore we also should take the charge and care of the same Church with al our hearts Ambrose extendeth the wordes of Christ in like manner to al Bishops preachers It was thrise repeated by the Lord feed my sheepe Which sheepe which flocke not onely Peter receiued then in charge but he with vs and wee all with him receiued them in cure And so doth Austen When it is said to Peter it is said to all Louest thou me Feede my sheepe That women may not vndertake this charge to feede Christs sheepe it was needelesse to cite Chrysostome S. Paul sayde it before in other wordes and wee bee farre from any such follie These bee the maine and mightie proofes wherewith you thought to shake the Princes seate which conclude vtterly nothing against that we defende nor against that her Maiestie claymeth or vseth The rest of your authorities which be sixe touch not vs at all nor any thing in question betwixt you and vs saue the last where S. Hierom writeth to Damasus He that gathereth not with thee scattereth Which words we graunt were very true when S. Hierom spake them for that Damasus rightly professed the Christian fayth which the Bishop of Rome now doeth not and by gathering with him is ment no subiection to him but a felowship with him in teaching the same trueth and keeping the bande of peace which is common to all Christians Your fift chapter which should cleere you from false doctrine and proue you to be good Catholiques hath in all but one Section of twentie sixe lines to that purpose the rest is a desperate discourse of your owne full of your bolde assertions vayne presumptions without scripture or father that helpeth you or hindereth vs. For prayer for the dead you alledge S. Augustine for honouring of Kelikes and Pilgrimage S Hierom for vocation of Saints worshipping the crosse and memories of Martyrs S. Cyril for the sacrifice of the Masse Saint Chrysostome for the corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament the Lateran Councell for Images the second Councel of Nice Gregorie to Serenus and Damascene for the power of Priesthood to remit sinnes S. Ambrose A weake foundation to beare so great a frame Cyril Chrysostome and Ambrose in the places which you quote teache nothing lesse than those errors and abuses which you mayntaine The seconde Councell of Nice was very neere 800 the Lateran Councell aboue a thousand yeres after Christ both too yong to make any doctrine Catholique Gregorie liketh that stories should be painted in the Church but adoration of thē he detesteth which yet that wicked Councell of Nice did after establish Damascene you may take backe againe his credite is so smale that we neede not answere him S. Hierom is hoat against Vigilantius and so hoat that Erasmus is faine to say Conuiciis debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom rayleth without measure Yet the most honour that he gaue to the bodies or ashes of Martyrs by whom God after their deaths wrought great miracles was to be fairely wrapt and honestly kept in their Chappels The tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles before them he denieth to be vsed in the Church in other places if any such thing were he imputeth it to the vnskilfulnesse and simplicitie of some Lay men and deuout women that had zeale but not according to knowledge What is this for your defence You make newe Relikes you set foorth vnshamefast Legends and deuise false miracles to deceiue the people you giue them Pardons for manie thowsande thowsande yeeres you promise them helpe in all their needes and effect in all their desires you make a very marte of the graces and gyftes of God to cause men to runne from place to place from Saint to Saint
the truth of Christ which is all that Sainct Hierom saith what inferre you thence that Rome is now the like This illation commeth twelue hundred yeares too short of your antecedent and no waie dependeth vpon S. Hieroms wordes vnlesse you thinke that Rome now because shee beareth the same name must also chalenge the same vertues and praises which Rome so longe since both had and deserued which were verie ridiculous But is this all you will adde before you growe to your maine conclusion Phi. The greatest part is yet behinde For as I beganne whither shoulde we rather flie than to him whose Predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it after in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme often receiued harbored and releeued diuerse blessed Bishops and Priestes of our nation as well in the times of their prosperitie as persecution and who haue receiued againe of all our Princes Prelats and People all duetifull and correspondent honours and good Offices for so many hundred yeares togither when they and their dominions florished in much glorie and felicitie and were dreadfull to Gods enemies the Churches and their owne among whom hir Maiesties Father for his worthie writinges and doings against the Lutherans receiued the glorious and eternall title of Defender of the faith to him of whose Predecessors all the famous Fathers called for ayde comfort and counsell in their like distresses Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius and Marcus Chrysostom and Augustine of Innocentius Basill of Tiberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Milecius of Damasus Theodorete of Leo the great and all the rest of otherholy Popes as time and necessitie required to him whose Seat as Eusebius reporteth of Sainct Denys of Corinth did alwayes sende reliefe to all the Christians persecuted and condemned to mettalles and refreshed all the faithfull comming vnto it as the Parent the children to him who as he canonically succeedeth all these in Seate doctrine and dignitie so is inferiour to none farre passeth many and resembleth most Sainct Gregorie the great our Apostle in all charitie hospitalitie zeale and tendernesse of heart and affection toward the desolate namely our nation for the spirituall calamitie whereof the writer of this hath seene him weepe full hartily and hath heard him saie the goods of that holie Seat whereof he had the dispensation were for the poore afflicted domesticals of faith Finallie whither could we with more hope haue recourse than to him by whose bounteous goodnesse so manie Patriarches Bishops learned Gentlemen and Christians of all sortes English Scottish Irish Almans Hungarians Syrians Armenians Cyprians and all other vnder the Turke or any way for Christes sake oppressed or impouerished haue beene and shall be relieued Theo. A long processe to little purpose Graunt that diuerse good men in times past haue sent and gone to Rome for counsell and comfort in cases of distresse which is all in effect which you can or doe say what conclude you nowe Phi. That wee may doe the like Theo. The like you may but not the contrarie Phi. We follow precisely their steps Theo. That we denie Well you may goe to Rome as they did and so your iourney not differ from theirs in the paines which you take nor the place which you see but you neither carrie with you the same mindes that they did neither doth your holy Father content him selfe with those meanes which his predecessors vsed For the auncient Bishoppes of Rome were duetifull and obedient Subiectes to the Christian Emperours and dealt by petition and supplication in most humble wise for their afflicted brethren they neuer offered armes nor encouraged Rebell against the superiour Powers no not when Constantius the Arian banished Liberius the Bishop of Rome for dissenting from his opinion nor when Iulius the Apostata renounced the faith and openly fell to Gentilisme but euer submitted them selues to the same Lawes and paines that other godly Bishops did when the Prince tooke part with error And for this cause the traueling then to Rome whiles the Bishop there embraced the truth obeyed the State assisted their brethren by good and lawfull meanes coulde no waie be displeasant to God iniurious to Princes nor daungerous to common-wealthes In our dayes it is farre otherwise The Pope nowe taketh vpon him to depose Kinges to inuade Realmes to authorize rebellion yea to curse all that yeelde any subiection or duetie to those Magistrates that withstand their fantasies Which vile and intollerable presumption of the late Bishops of Rome neither Cyprian nor Athanasius nor Chrysostome nor Augustine nor Basill nor Hierom nor Theodorete in their times euer founde or feared And therefore both you must alter the leude perswasions of your heartes and your holie Father must leaue his wholie practises to pull Princes out of their thrones by stirring sedition and inuading their Dominions before your flocking to Rome can bee warranted by these examples Phi. I maruell you still obiect that which wre by oth haue purged You knowe wee haue sworne that in going to Rome wee had no such intent Theo. Your oth if it bee true cleareth one man for one viage but which of you doeth or can sweare for all other times and persons Howbeit in this place wee doe not vrge you with your intentes nor attempts against her Maiestie wee onely weigh the strength of your argument that you may slie to Rome as well as some learned and auncient Fathers haue done This collection of yours is not good because the bishop of Rome nowe claymeth full power to depriue Princes of their Crownes and discharge their Subiectes from all obedience contrarie to the worde of God and examples of Christes Church which in those dayes whiles these Fathers whom you mention liued the Bishoppes of Rome neither did or durst presume Phi. Wee meddle not with the Popes clayme hee can answere for himselfe Theophil You must meddle with it and bring ineuitable proofe for it before your consequent will bee currant or your slight to Rome lawfull Phi. If wee sought to Rome for succour against the Prince your saying were somewhat but I haue often tolde you we doe not Theo. And I haue told you as often that graunt you did not the Popes clayme to discharge Kinges and Queenes at his pleasure is enough to reuerse your argument Wee care not what you dissemble of pollicie for a season but what he chalengeth for euer as of right His pride not your craft is the thing we stand on and that being such as the learned Fathers whom you name neuer sawe nor suspected maketh so great a difference betweene those dayes and these that from their fact to yours no good consequent can be framed And yet I could tell you besides that when hee commaundeth you must and will execute So that although you were no seekers nor prouokers of his vnchristian dealinges
Rome notwithstanding he professe him selfe an open enemie to the Queene Phi. You still presse vs with that which we neuer ment Theo. You stil defend your selues there where we doe not strike This is the very drift and scope of all your examples as your owne wordes witnes And sor vs of the schoole and Clergie whither should we rather flee than to him Now that he hath openly shewed himselfe an enemie to her Highnes in accursing her Person in remouing her Crowne in forbidding her subiects to obey her in ayding rebelles against her and assaulting her land with force you can not so much as doubt woulde you neuer so faine the facts are so notorious and fresh in the memories of all men Phi. We noted this in you that where the Britanes and Saxons receiued preachers from Rome with honour and thankes you persecute them with all kinde of torments Theo. Your attempt is as contrary to theirs as your reward is diuers from theirs They came with religion to God and submission to Princes you come with neyther Phi. I woulde you knewe it wee come with both And you may bee ashamed to charge vs with two such haynous crimes prouing neyther Theo. Haue patience till wee come to the place where both shall bee discussed and see whether that which is nowe saide shall then be proued or no but in the meane time goe forwarde with the rest of your examples Phi. Wee flee to him of whose predecessors all the famous fathers called for aide comfort and counsel in their like distresses as Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius Chrysostome and Augustine of Innocentius Basil of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Miletius of Damasus Theodoret of Leo the great and all the rest of other holy Popes Theo. This is no reasoning but rouing You florish with a few general and doubtful termes neither opening the causes nor expressing the circumstances They called you say For ayde comfort and counsell What ayde such as the Bishops of Rome might and did yeeld in those dayes without chalenging any supremacie That is nothing to your purpose neither will that warrant your gadding to Rome Such as none could giue but they that were rulers heads of the whole Church That were somewhat if it could bee proued but your examples cōtaine no such thing Uiew the particulars Cyprian in his epistles to Cornelius Stephanus neuer calleth them otherwise than brethren and collegues and in matters concerning the regiment of the Church as well giueth as taketh both counsell and comfort But can you shewe that Cyprian euer allowed any man to runne to Rome for helpe against the iudgements and acts of other Bishops if you can not as wee bee right sure you be not able then can we shew you where Cyprian misliketh and plainely reproueth this posting of yours to Rome writing to Cornelius Hee saith that certaine persons condemned in Africa by the Bishops there Romam cum mendaciorum suorum merce nauigauerunt sailed to Rome with their fraight of lies adding farther And now what is the cause of their comming for either they like that they did and so perseuere in their wickednes or if they mislike relent they know whither they may returne For where it is a thing prescribed to vs al and besides that equal and right that euery mans cause be there heard where the crime was committed and euery Pastor hath his portion of the flocke assigned him which he must gouerne and rule as one that shall giue an accompt of his doings to God Oportet vtique eos quibus praesumus non circūcursare Those that be vnder vs must not runne thus about to Rome but there plead their cause where they may finde both accusers and witnesses vnlesse perhaps a few desperat and loose companions take the authoritie of the Bishops of Africa to be lesse than at Rome The like hee sayth of one Basilides that being depriued of his Bishopricke procured letters from Rome for his restitution Neither can this infringe the ordering of the next Bishop lawfully finished that Basilides running to Rome deceiued Stephanus our collegue by reason he is farre off not acquainted with the truth of the case getting himselfe to be restored vniustly to the Bishopricke from the which he was iustly deposed If Cyprian did not like that Cornelius should medle with matters concluded in Africa neither esteemed the restitution of Basilides made by Stephanus but reiected it as voyde and vniust what other ayde thinke you would he call for at their hands but onely such mutual concorde as should profite the Church and well beseeme the seruantes of Christ Phi. If Cyprian woulde not Athanasius did who being Patriarke of Alexandria fled twise to Rome for succour in his owne person and was there not onely receiued and harboured but also restored to his former dignitie of Iulius notwithstanding the Councels of Tyrus and Antioche had decreed the contrarie and Constantius the Emperour consented thereto Theo. The troubles of Athanasius gaue Iulius good cause both to claime and vse the vttermost of his authoritie The wrong offered Athanasius was so shamefull the madnes of Arians subuerting the faith and oppressing the Church so manifest the rage of Constantius assisting their heresie with all his might so cruell that if euer the Bishop of Rome woulde stirre this time must needes force him to doe his best Phi. And so he did I warrant you Theo. What did hee Phi. You knowe well inough hee summoned the Arians to appeare before him examined their proceedings reuersed the sentence giuen against Athanasius and placed him in his Bishopricke in spite of his aduersaries Theo. Can you proue that Iulius did al this alone without the help of others or that he did any part of this as head of the Church Uicar general to Christ Phi. What cauils you inuent when you be vrged with any thing Theo. What broken reedes you leane too and thinke them strong pillers It is well knowen the Bishop of Rome was not onely Patriarke of the West parts but of the foure Patriarkes also which were the chiefest Bishops of Christendome in order and accompt the first By reason whereof no Councell could be generall vnlesse hee were called no matters concerning the whole Church or principall Patriarks could be handled vnlesse he were present or priuie to the same Which prerogatiue was giuen him by consent of men not by graunt from Christ in respect of the Citie that was the Seate of the Empire then ruling the worlde not in token of any supremacie descending from Peter Thus much we graunt without any proofe of yours more than this if you would sweate out your heartes you shall neuer proue by these nor any other examples of the primitiue Church Phi. Then by your owne confession hee was the chiefest and highest Bishoppe in the worlde Theo. He was before the rest in honour and
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
receaued to their fellowship they keeping still that honor and excellencie which they had in Christ before our comming Abraham is to this day the father of the faythful the Patriarkes Prophets are not depriued of their dignitie Peter no doubt as he was so he is the first Stone that Christ layed in the foundation of his Church which dignity you can not take from him after his death Phi. What then shall his successour haue Theo. The charge that he had to feede the same keyes that were giuen him and the rest to binde lose Which office if the Bishop of Rome will execute he may haue Phi. A fayre promotioÌ„ You meane he shal be a Bishop as others are Theo. God graunt he be so much More if he will haue by warrant from Peter you must proue it better than by such forged autorities manned exaÌ„ples as here you bring Those that are past your self see were to litle purpose Theodoretes example which is yet behind is like the rest Phi. He submitted him self to Leo the great was by him restored to his Bishoprike though he were not of his Prouince Theo. Leo toke his part against Dioscorus the Patriarke of Alexandria that like a tyrant in the second Councell of Ephesus not only was the death of Flauianus by spurning tredding on him but also coÌ„firmed the wicked opinion of Eutiches deposed Theodorete without any iust cause whoÌ„ the Bishop of Rome receaued to the coÌ„munion accepted for a lawfull and Catholike Bishop not regarding the sentence pronounced against him by Dioscorus Phi. Then Leo reuersed the lewd acts of Dioscorus in that Ephesine Councell Theo. Leo withstood theÌ„ as all other good men did throughout the world but the iudgement was reuersed by the great CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon not by the Bishop of Rome where Theodorete was forced with his own mouth in their presence to cleare him selfe from all suspition notwithstanding his restitution by Leo before he could be admitted to make his complaynt against Dioscorus Phi. Still you see the Bishop of Rome resisted other by dissenting from them ouerthrew their interprises Theo. And still you see the Bishop of Rome neuer ended these matters at home in his owne Câ—â—sistorie as supreme Iudge of the whole earth but euer made suite to Christiâ—n Princes that these thinges might be determined in full assemblies of Bisâ—ops by the iudgement opinion of the most part which is cleane contrarie tâ— that absolute power he now claymeth as Uicar generall to Christ the only Ruler of his vniuersall Church And therefore these examples which you haue brought many like which you might bring proue noâ— that power which you defend at this day to belong to the Bishop of Rome but rather euert the same For what needed his predecessors with all ouetie become suppliants to Catholike Emperours for the gathering of Bishops out of all quarters to decide matters in doubt and that sute often refused as when Innocentius messengers came backe from Arcadius with a shamefull repulse and Leo the great whom you last spake of besought Theodosius the yonger with sighes teares to graunt a Councell for the repealing of Dioscorus actes could not obtaine it what needed I say such earnest and humble request to those that neglected their prayers if Christ had appointed them as Peters successors and his deputies without depending on Princes pleasures or other mens voices to say but the word which should stand good in his Church against all persons in all causes both of doctrine discipline And what better conuiction of your falshood can there be than that in all these troubles tempests of the Church which you haue chosen out of many for your best aduantage the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as pretended or mentioned his Lieutenantship to Christ which you now defend but euer keeping his place which by reason of his Citie was the first among the Patriarkes ioyning him selfe to the West Bishops which were then a good part of Christendom by their helpe and the fauour of religious Princes gate those thinges that oppressed the Church and impugned the faith to be debated and determined by common coÌ„sent in generall and lawfull Councels without any reseruation or motion of his absolute power or negatiue voice Phi. Our examples you grant proue this that he resisted others now shewe you that others ouerruled him Theo. If I could not the matter were not great coÌ„sidering your examples conclude nothing against vs but least you should flatter your selues too much in your follies you shal see that others withstood him as well as he withstood others Phi. Were they Catholiks Theo. I trust you dare not account them heretikes Peter as you say the first Bishop of Rome was resisted by Paul the teacher of the Gentiles Anicetus by Policarpus Saint Iohns owne scholer Victor by Polycrates Ireneus and al the brethren of Asia Stephanus by Cyprian Damasus Syricius and Anastasius by Flauianus and all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum Innocentius by Cyrill Sozimus and Bonifacius by Augustine and two hundred and sixteene Bishoppes of Africa Caelestinus by Theodorete Leo by the great Councell of Chalcedon Gregorie by the Britanes and many other Bishops of Rome by diuerse godly Princes Prelates Countries and Councels Phi. I like not these generall florishes which serue onely to obscure the truth and beguile the simple Theo. Howe then can you like your Apologie which consisteth of nothing else And what a slender kinde of proofe was that idle rehearsall of names which you made euen now for your running to Rome But our particulars I am well content you shall skan The first Paul himselfe affirmeth When Peter came to Antioch I withstood him to his face for hee was to be blamed Phi. The quarell betwixt them was not great Theo. Not walking the right way to the truth of the Gospell and compelling the Gentiles to liue like the Iewes was no such petite fault as you make it but graunt it were The smaller the fault the stronger our instance If Paul for a light matter resisted Peter to his face what woulde hee haue done in a cause of more weight Phi. Was Peter then Bishop of Rome when Paul reproued him Theo. It forceth not whether hee were or no. Peter as you pretende had his prerogatiue not from Rome but from Christ long before hee sawe Rome and therefore was in as full authoritie when Paul resisted him as when Nero martyred him and yet if their account bee true that were the first authours of his preferment to Rome hee was rebuked at Paules handes euen when hee was Bishoppe of Rome For Peter as Eusebius or some other in his name recordeth went to Rome and was Bishoppe there in the 44. yeare of Christ that is eleuen yeares after his passion Christ being put to death in the 33. yeare of his age
hide the matter if it would be your holy father falsified the couÌ„cel of Nice to serue his ambitioÌ„ the Bishops of Africa by common coÌ„sent both stoutly rightly withstood him Phi. Well Theophilus the truth of these things God knoweth I will defend no more than I may with honestie The. You were not best God be thanked mens eies are open you can not blind theÌ„ with such canuisadoes But I wil go forward Theodorete is the next who was one of those that tooke part with Iohn of Antioch against Cyrill in the first Councell of Ephesus and both charged him with heresie and deposed him notwithstanding he supplied the place of Coelestinus Bishoppe of Rome Phi. Theodorete did this in a faction to serue other mens humors Theo. I grant it was a priuate grudge between the two Patriarks that the Bishop of Antioch with whom Theodoret came sought vnlawfull meanes to be reuenged of Cyril but yet this Theodoret the rest did Phi. It skilleth not what they did so long as their doings were condemned by two general Councels theÌ„selues glad to reuoke their own acts Theo. In that they deposed Cyrillus Memnon against al order and without iust cause vpon stomake defamed the Chapters as heretical which the councel of Ephesus by Cyrils direction proposed against Nestorius they were worthily reproued wheÌ„ choler was a litle digested both sides did wisely to relent remit al former offeÌ„ces but what couÌ„cel did euer obiect this to theÌ„ as a fault that they resisted the popes deputie Nay rather the rest of the bishops that held with Cyril when the letters of Theodosius came wherein he approued the deposition as wel of Cyril Memnon as of Nestorius not only prescribed limited the Popes Legate others that were sent in Embassage to the Prince what they should do but added this threatning Scire auteÌ„ volumus vestraÌ„ sanctitateÌ„ quod si quid horuÌ„ a vobis contemptuÌ„ fuerit neque sancta Synodus acta habebit rata neque vos coÌ„munionis sinet esse participes We giue your holines to vnderstand that if any of these things which we haue appointed you be omitted by you neither will this holy Synod ratifie your acts nor receiue you to the coÌ„munion If you respect not those that impugned Cyril I shew you that the Popes legate was both coÌ„manded menaced by those which assisted Cyril whom you can not choose but allow By the which it is euident that the lawful general couÌ„cel of Ephesus thought they might and sayd they would not only controle but euen excoÌ„municate the popes vicegerent if he did not that which was enioyned him by the Synode The great Councel of Chalcedon gaue the Bishop of Constantinople equall priuileges with the Bishop of Rome when those that represented the person of Leo the next day desired of the noble men that sate there as iudges moderators that the matter might be brought about againe put to voices pretending that it was not orderly past the councel that in the absence of the Popes Legats had made this decree in their presence confirmed the same they contradicting doing what they could for their liues to withstand it Phi. If they were not present the decree was not good Theo. There you beguile your self If the bishop of Rome were not called the Councell was not generall but though neither he nor his Legates were present the decree might be good Phi. How proue you they were absent Theo. Their own words to the Iudges be so Paschasinus Lucentius Vicegerents to the See Apostolike saide If it please your highnes we haue somwhat to say to you The most glorious Iudges answered say what you wil. Paschasinus Lucentius sayd yesterday after your H. were risen we followed your steps there were certaine things decreed as we heare which we think were done besides the order Canons of the church We beseech you therfore that your excellencies would coÌ„mand the same to be red again that the whole couÌ„cel or coÌ„panie may see whether it were rightly or disorderly done The most glorious Iudges answered If any thing were decreed after our departure let it be read againe And before the reading Aetius the Archdeacon of Constantinople said The maner is in Synods after the chiefest points are coÌ„cluded to dispatch such other things as be needful We had somwhat to do for the church of Costantinople We praied the bishops that came froÌ„ Rome that they would stay communicate with vs. They refused saying we may not we are otherwise charged We acquainted your honors with it you willed that this holy couÌ„cel should coÌ„sider of it Your highnes then departing the Bishops that are here conferring of a coÌ„mon cause required this to be done And here they are It was not done in secrete nor by stealth but orderly and lawfully They were absent as you see because they were required refused the Councel proceeded in their absence and decreed without them on this wise Following euery where the steps of the sacred fathers we determine decree the selfe same thing which they did for the priuiledges of the most holy church of ConstaÌ„tinople being new Rome Our father 's not without good aduise gaue to the throne of elder Rome the chiefest place of honor because that city raigned or was the Seat of the kingdome And the hundred fifty Bishops which were gathered vnder Theodosius the â—lder in the royal city of Constantinople moued with the same consideration bestowed equal like priuileges on the most holy throne of new Rome hauing great reason to determine that the Citie which is now honored with the Empire and Senate should enioie equal priuiledges with the elder Royall Citie of Rome and in Ecclesiasticall affaires bee aduanced as the other beeing the second after her Phi. Neither Leo nor his Legates would euer consent to this decree Theo. I care not for that First the iudgement opinion of the couÌ„cel of Chalcedon is cleare with vs that the chiefest honour and highest place was allotted the Bishop of Rome not as Christes Uicar nor as Peters successour but in regard of his citie that was Imperiall Next the same consideration now seruing them to aduaunce Constantinople which moued their fathers to preferre Rome they thought it lawfull for them to make the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome and so they did notwithstanding the Legats of Leo laboured tooth and nayle to preuent the same Phi. They placed the Bishop of Constantinople next after the Bishoppe of Rome not in equall degree with him Theo. The Bishop of Rome kept his place which was first in order among the Patriarkes when they went in couÌ„cell and next after him was the Bishop of Constantinople to sit before the Patriarkes of Alexandria and Antioche but in playne termes the Councell of Chalcedon gaue the See of
and Bishops that were called by the king for this purpose without conuiction or confession of his gaue iudgement against him alleaging and protesting the priuilege of himselfe his church The Archbishop driuen to this extremity and forsaken of al the rest of the Bishops hoysed the crosse which he held in his hand aloft marched away frō the kings court in the eyes of thē al the next night stale frō the place gate him ouer to Flaūders so to the Pope He brake the oth which he took for the keeping of the foresaid lawes liberties of the crown he claimed a freedom for theeues murderers y◠they should not be subiect to the princes power he refused the kings court appealed to the pope for a matter of debt lest he shuld rēder an accoūt of his tēporal office whiles he was Chācelor which of these three points cā you now with learning or honestie defend Phi. The liberty of the holy Church is a iust good quarell for a man to die in Theo. If you meane thereby an impunitie for mutherers such like offendors then is it a most wicked and irreligious part for a Bishop to open his mouth for such libertie much more to resist his Prince for that quarrell Phi. His quarrel was better than so Theo. Neubrigensis a man of that age and one that honored the person and praised the zeale of Th. Becket reporteth thus of the quarell betweene the king him The king saith he was aduertised by his Iudges that many crimes were committed by clergie mē against the lawes of his Realm as thefts roberies murders In so much that in his audiēce it was they say declared that more than an hundred murders were done in England by clergie men in the time of his raigne Wherefore the king very much kindled in a vehement spirit made lawes against malefactors of the clergie which hee thought to make the stronger by the cōsent of the Bishops Calling therefore the Bishoppes togither hee so plied them what with faire meanes what with foule that they al saue one thought it best to yeeld and obey the kings will and set their seales to those new statutes I say all saue one for the Archbishop of Canterburie would not bow but stood immoueable Whereupon the king began to be greatly offended with him and seeking all occasions to resist him called him to account for those things which he had done before as Chauncellour of the Realme Now must you shewe that by Gods lawes theeues and homicides if they be clerks may not be punished by the princes sword or if you dare not plead that in these dayes for very shame then must you grant that your Canterbury saint resisting his Prince where he should not was an Archrebell against God and the Magistrate one of these twaine you must needes choose Phi. We shal digresse too far if we discusse these things in this place Theo. Your stomake I see doth not serue you at this present wee shall haue some other oportunitie to debate the same in the meane time learne what lawes king Hērie the 2. enacted executed in spite of your holy father his deuout chaplin The king at the returne of his Legates perceiuing his request for the confirmation of his ancient liberties to be repelled by the Pope not a little offended therewith wrote letters to all his Shirifes Lieutenants in England on this wise I command you that if any clergie man or lay men in your coūtie appeale to the court of Rome you attach him hold him in fast ward till our pleasure be known And to his Iudges in this sort If any man be foūd to bring letters or mandate from the Pope or from Thomas the Archbishop interdicting the Realme of England let him be taken and kept in prison till I send word what shal be done with him The four that wrate the life extol the facts of Th. Becket ad to this law Let him be streightway apprehended for a traitor execution done vpon him Also let no clerk monk canon or other religious person go ouer the Seas without letters of pasport frō vs of our officer if any venture otherwise let him be taken cast into prison Let no man appeale to the Pope or to Th. the Archbishop neither let any suite surcease at their cōmandement If any Bishop Abbot Clerk or lay man shal obserue their sentence interdicting our Land presently let him bee banished the Realme and all his kindred with him and their goods and landes confiscated Let the Bishops of London and Norwich bee summoned to appeare before our Iustices and there to answere for interdicting the Land and excommunicating the person of Earle Hugh contrarie to the Statutes of our Realm Thus far the valiant worthie Prince went in defending his Lawes liberties against the Bishop of Rome how far hee would haue gone but that the time was not yet come when God would deliuer his Church from the yoke of Antichrist appeareth by an Epistle of his written to the Archbishop of Cullain in these wordes I haue long desired to finde a iust occasion to depart from Pope Alexander and his persidious cardinals which presume to maintaine my traytour Thomas of Canterbury against me whereupon by the aduise of my Barons cleargie I meane to send the Archbishop of Yorke the bishop of London the Archdeacon of Poictiers c. to Rome which shall publikely denounce plainly propose this on my behalfe and all the Dominions I haue to Pope Alexander and his cardinals that they maintaine my traytour no longer but rid me of him that I with the aduise of my cleargie may set an other in the church of Canterburie They shall also require them to frustrate all that Becket had done and exact an oth of the Pope that he and his successors as much as in them lieth shall keepe and conserue inuiolable to me and all mine for euer the Royal customs of king Henrie my grandfather If they refuse any of these my demands neither I nor my Barons nor my clergie will yeeld them any kinde of obedience any longer yea rather we will openly impugne the Pope and all his and whosoeuer in my Lande shal be founde hereafter to sticke to the Pope shal be banished my Realme Phi. The king made amends for all when the Archbishop was slaine renoūcing the liberties which he striued for so long and honoring him as a Martyr whom before he pursued as a traitor Theo. The manifold deuises practises of the late Bishops of Rome God so punishing the dulnesse and discorde of Princes neglecting his truth and enuying one an other haue weakened and wearied very many both kings and Emperours partly with a false perswasion of religion partly with a number of fayned miracles but chiefly by drawing their subiectes from them and setting other nations vpon them yea by stirring and arming their owne
the priest is Gods minister to reuēge male factors Peter himself was sharply rebuked by Christ for vsing the sword in Peter all Pastors Bishops are straitly charged not to meddle with it Al that take the sword shall perish with the sword And of al men a Bishop must be no striker For if he that should feede his masters houshold fal to striking he shall haue his portion with hypocrites The seruants of God must be gentle towards all instructing those that resist with mildnes not cōpelling any with sharpnes Their function is limited to the preaching of the word dispensing the sacraments which haue no kinde of cōpulsion in thē but inuite men only by sober perswasions to beleeue imbrace the promises of God To conclude pastors may teach exhort reproue not force cōmand or reuenge only princes be gouernors that is publik magistrates to prescribe by their lawes and punish with the sword such as resist them within their dominions which Bishops may not do speake we truth or no Phi. We grant Bishops be no magistrates neither haue they to do with the bodies or goods of mē which god hath permitted to the princes power but yet they be gouernors of soules which princes be not Theo. No better reason to warrāt our opinion The Bishops charge concerneth the souls of mē but the soule of mā can neither be forced nor punished by man ergo Bishops be no commanders nor punishers but only directors instructors of the flocke of Christ. Phi. That we know The. Thē since by gouernors we mean rulers such as God hath authorized to bear the sword why do you fondly cauil that the princes power to cōmand punish excludeth the Bishops vocation to teach exhort which is nothing so Phi. You say princes may command and punish as well Bishops as others Theo. If they bee subiectes no lesse than others why should they not obey the prince or abide the sword as wel as others Phi. Do you make them meere subiects Theo. Not I but he that said You must be subiect not only for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Phi. Doth he speake that of clergymē Theo. He y◠speaketh of al exempteth none Let euery soule bee subiect to the higher powers c. In these words clergymen be not excepted ergo cōprised Out of this place Bernard reasoneth thus with an archbishop of Frāce Let euery soul be subiect If euery thē yours Who doth except you y◠be bishops frō this general speech He that bringeth an exceptiō vseth but a delusion For these things saith Chrysostom are commanded to all as well Priestes and Monks as secular men which appeareth by the first sentence Let euery soule bee subiect to the superiour powers yea though thou be an Apostle an Euangelist a Prophet or what soeuer thou be So Theodorete Whether he be Priest Bishop or Monk let them be subiect to Magistrates This doctrine dured in the Church a thousand yeares before your exemption of Clerkes from secular powers as you call them was knowen Paul teacheth euerie soule saith Theophilact whether he be Priest Monk or Apostle to be subiect and obey Princes He teacheth euery soule saith Oecumenius whether he be Priest Monk or Apostle to submit themselues to Magistrates Gregorie the first perceiued and yeelded this exposition to be true Power saith he ouer all men is giuen to my Lord the Emperour from heauen And least you should thinke priests exempted in the person of Christ he speaketh thus to Mauritius the Emperour Sacerdotes meos tuae manui commisi I haue put my Priestes into thy handes and dost thou withhold thy souldiers from my seruice And elsewhere writing of the same prince Christ hath granted him to be ruler not ouer souldiers only but ouer Priestes also This is euident by the whole course of the Scripture Whom did our Sauiour charge to giue to Caesar that which was Caesars Not Scribes and high Priests as well as others Christ himselfe was a priest and a prophet and yet he not onely submitted himselfe to the Romane Magistrate but confessed the presidēts power ouer him to be from heauen S. Paul appealed vnto Caesar appeared before Caesar as his lawful gouernor S. Iude detested thē for false prophetes that despised gouernment or spake euil of rulers It is no Religion it is rebellion against God his word for clergie men to exempt themselues from the princes power The commandement is general Let euery soule be subiect◠the punishment is eternall Whosoeuer resisteth power resisteth the ordināce of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation Phi. Yet reason the clergie be fauoured aboue the Laitie Theo. Tush we talke not what fauour princes may do well to shew but whether Clergie men by Gods law may chalenge an exemption from earthly powers or no Phi. Not except princes commaund against God And if they do so whom must lay men obey God or man Phi. No doubt God Theo. Then the prince cōmaunding against God all men are bound be they lay men or clerkes to prefer the will of God before the princes lawes but when the prince ioyneth with God and commaundeth for truth may the clergie resist the prince more than the people may Phi. They may not Theo. You say well Of the twaine they must rather obey that they may be teachers of obedience not in wordes onely but in deedes also For if they must admonish others to be subiect to principalities and obedient to Magistrates then must they not hinder their doctrine by their doings nor leade the rest by their example to contemn or resist powers which they should reuerence and obey Phi. By no meanes Theo. And in case the prince be repugnant to God may priestes or people be violent withstanders or must they rather be patient indurers of the sword Phi. They must not resist but in patience possesse their soules They that resist shal receiue iudgemēt Theo. Ergo whether princes be with God or against God Priests Bishops must with gladnes obey or with meekenes abide the sword Phi. They must Theo. And he that suffereth is a subiect as wel as he that obeyeth For if they be rulers that commaund punish certainely they be subiects that must obey the commandement or abide the punishment Phi. I think so Theo. Then monks Prists Bishops by Gods law be subiects as well as others and consequently Princes be Gouernours of all persons within their dominions bee they Prelates Prophetes Apostles or whatsoeuer they be Phi. In temporal things we graunt but not in spiritual Theo. Where Princes may lawfully commaund all subiects of dewtie must obey Phi. True but in Ecclesiastical causes Princes may not meddle Theo. So say you but if I proue that the Princes power and charge by Gods law reacheth as well vnto matters of religion as other things will you bethink your selues
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
submitteth himselfe to the Princes commissioners and offereth to amend all that is amisse by the princes iudgement This lowly submission importeth an euident subiection Phi. It was a dispensation of the Popes humilitie not any part of his bounden duetie thus to doe Theo. So Gratian the compiler of your decrees falueth the matter which is as much as if you sayde the Pope by right might haue commaunded the Prince but in a merie moode for once to make sport he would needes bee iudged and ordered by the Prince Is not this a proper kind of diuinitie when the Pope protesteth his obedience to the Princes power and lawes to say the Pope speaketh in iest his wordes are but a tricke of voluntarie which he may recall or refuse when hee will If such vnlearned irreligious and vnsavory shiftes may serue for good answeres you may soone defend what religion you lift It is a very short and easie methode to be rid of all examples and histories to say they did so but it was more than needed or should haue beene done Phi. In temporall matters it might be the Pope was subiect to the Princes power but not in spirituall Theo. No man can bee both a subiect and a superiour to the Princes power A subiect is alwayes a subiect that is at al times to bee commaunded and punished by the magistrate neuer to command or punish the Magistrate Againe Leo referreth him selfe in all thinges both great and small to the Princes pleasure and censure now a subiect in all thinges is superiour in nothing yet left you shoulde cauill that ecclesiasticall causes are not expresty mentioned in this place you shall see that the Bishoppes of Rome for eight hundred yeeres and aboue were suppliants and seruants not of curtesie but of duetie to Christian Emperours and obeyed their ecclesiasticall Lawes and edicts and were commaunded and ouerruled by them in the regiment of the Church as the stories that follow shall plainely declare Donatus and his fellowes pretending that Cecilianus could not be Bishop of Carthage for many crimes falsely surmised and specially for that Felix which layed handes on him had as they sayde betrayed or burnt the scriptures not onely refused his communion and procured his condemnation in a Prouinciall Synode by lxx Africane Bishoppes but in a tumult erected an other Bishoppe besides him diuided the people from him and offering a bill of complaint against him to the Proconsull of Africke made a request to Constantine that hee woulde giue them iudges to decide the matter The Prince carefull to keepe the Church in peace did authorize Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome Marcus a Clergieman of the same Citie but as then no Bishop Rheticius Maternus and Maximus three Bishoppes of Fraunce to consider their allegations and determine the strife Where sentence passing with Cecilianus the contrarie part appealed from the commissioners to the Prince This appeale Constantine might haue iustly reiected as made from his owne delegates but seeking all meanes to pacifie the schisme commanded a greater number of their Bishoppes to meete together at Arle in France there to sit in Councell a fresh about the hearing and ending of this quarell from whome for that they likewise concluded Cecilianus to be right Bishop of Carthage the Donatists appealed as they had done from the first adding nowe that if Cecilianus himselfe were cleare yet so long as Felix was guiltie which ordered and confirmed him his election must needes bee voyde The patient and mild Emperour seeing them twise conuicted and not contented but still murmuring against the Bishoppes as partiall and dayly molesting his eares with importunate suite neuer troubled Bishoppe or Councell with the clearing of Felix but appointed Aelianus a ciuill Magistrate to search out the trueth of these later accusations in a temporall Court where Felix after diligent examination was iudicially discharged and acquitted from all suspition of that sacrilegious abusing the woorde of God Then were both sides called before Constantine to receiue iudgement at his handes without appeale who taking paynes in his owne Person to sit iudge betweene them and exactly weighing what either part could say gaue sentence with Cecilianus against Donatus making therewithall a most sharpe Lawe to punish the Donatists if they persisted in their wilfulnes as dissentious schismatikes from the Church of Christ which rigour the Christian Emperours that followed did rather increase than diminish This I thought good to report out of Eusebius Optatus and Austen somewhat the larger that the circumstaunces being fully knowen the conclusion might the better bee perceiued I trust you will not denie but the strife betweene Cecilianus and Donatus consisted both of persons and causes ecclesiasticall The parties accused and accusing were Bishoppes the faultes obiected were iust impediments of episcopall dignitie the matters in doubt were the committing and partaking of sacrilege the right election of Bishoppes the lawfull deposing of them by Synodes the needefull communion with them or schismaticall dissention from them No causes can possiblely touch the regiment of Christes Church neerer than these wel then in these causes who was supreme Meltiades or Constantine The bishop of Rome or the Emperour The prince sent commission to the Pope ioyned other collegues with him receiued an appeale from him gaue second iudges after him and in his owne person pronounced finall sentence without him the least of these facts proueth the prince superiour to the Pope and all these did that famous Emperour and his doings in this case were very well lyked and accepted in the Church of Christ. Which of these things wil you now encounter Did not Cōstantine authorize Meltiades His commission is yet extant to Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome and Marcus with these words My pleasure is that Cecilianus with ten Bishops of his accusers and other tenne of his fauourers come to Rome there to be heard before you both ioyning with you Rheticius Maternus and Marinus your collegues whom purposely for this matter I haue willed with speede to repaire vnto you S. Austen debating with the Donatists what iust exceptions they could take to so many sentences giuen against them moueth this doubt maketh this answere Should not thinke you Meltiades Bishop of Rome with his collegues haue vsurped that iudgement which lxx Africane Bishops had ended What that he did not vsurpe For the Emperour vpon motion made by you sent Bishops to sit with him as iudges and to rule that matter in euery point as iustice should leade them This we proue by the Donatists supplication and the Princes owne wordes If S. Austen defend the Bishoppe of Rome from vsurping in this case by producing vrging a commission from the prince then apparētly both the pope was authorized by y◠princes power to giue iudgemēt in a matter ecclesiastical had bin but for that warrant an vsurper Phi. S. Austen sayth that Constantine durst not be iudge of a Bishops cause Theo. At the first hee
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
breath ergo the Prince conferreth life and breath to thē Or the Prince permitteth her Subiectes to beleeue in God and relieue ech others ergo the Prince conferreth faith and charitie to them Phi. It giueth her to do that which is more euen to prescribe by her selfe or her deputies or lawes authorised onely by her selfe which waie to worship and serue God how and in what forme to minister the Sacramentes to punish and depriue teach and correct them and generally to prescribe and appoint which waie she will be gouerned in soule Theo. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what seruice of God they please what forme of administring the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought nor point of our doctrine And yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the christian faith to be preached the right seruice of God in spirit and truth to be vsed the Sacraments to be ministred according to the Lords institution this is no absurditie in vs to defend but impietie rather in you to withstande And that Princes may punish both Bishoppes and others for heresie dissention and all kinde of iniquitie by banishing and commaunding them to bee remoued from their Churches which you call depriuing cā not now be coūted absurd vnlesse you reiect the stories of the church and lawes of christian Princes which I before cited as absurd For there shall you finde that Emperours by their Lawes and Edictes haue commaunded Bishops to be iudicially depriued by other bishops actually displaced by their temporal Magistrates as well for erronious teaching as vicious liuing Phi. When you giue princes supreme power in matters of religion you giue thē leaue to do what they lift The. If you affirm that of vs your report is vtterly vntrue if you infer it vpon vs your reason is very ridiculous For what a fond illation is this Princes be supreme that is not subiect to the Popes iurisdictiō ergo princes may lawfully do what they wil. Phi. We say not lawfully but if there be none to cōtrole thē none can let thē to do what they list The. The dreadful iudgements of God not the leud practises of Popes must bridle Princes frō doing euill If they feare not a reuenger in heauen whom they can not escape they will neuer regard a conspirator in earth whom they may soone preuent yet we dispute not what tyrāts de facto wil do but what godly Princes of dutie should of right may do This is it that we seek for therfore you must conclude this or nothing Phi. You giue thē authority to make lawes punish for religion without anie mētion of truth or error The. The oth expresseth not their duty to God but ours to thē as they must be obeied whē they ioin with truth so must they be endured whē they fal into error which side soeuer they take either obediēce to their wils or submissiō to their swords is their due by Gods law that is al which our oth exacteth And yet when we professe thē to be gouernors that word restraineeh thē from their own lusts referreth thē to Gods ordināce For they which resist God impugn the truth oppresse the righteous assist error fauor impietie be no gouernors vnder God as all princes oughtto bee but tyrantes against God not bearers but wilful abusers of the sword which God hath appointed for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well And this though it be not expressed yet is it euer imploied in the very scepters swords thrones of princes For dominiō power maiesty belōg of right to god alone are by him imparted to Princes with this condition to this end that they shold raign vnder him not ouer him cōmand for him not against him be honored obeied after him not before him therefore this quarrell sauoreth not of ignorance but of malice when you say we giue Princes power to do what they wil in matters pertaining to God his seruice We reiect detest that sinful assertion more than you do In deede we say that the Pope may not pull Princes crownes frō their heads nor seeke to master them with contriuing rebellions treasons against them whiles hee pretendeth to depose them In this onely sense wee defende them to bee supreme that is not at libertie to do what they lift without regard of truth or right but without superiour on earth to represse them with violent meanes and to take their kingdomes from them Phi. It maketh the bodie aboue the soule the temporall regiment aboue the spirituall the earthly kingdom aboue Christes mysticall bodie It maketh the sheepe aboue the Pastour it giueth her power to commaund them whom wherein she is bound to obey It giueth power to the subiect to be iudge of the iudges yea of God himselfe as S. Cyprian speaketh Theo. I am loth to bring you out of loue with your owne conceits otherwise I neuer saw more boldnes lesse soundnes in any man If we did preferre earthly things before heauenly you might iustly charge vs that we set the body aboue the soule but betweene Princes Priests that comparison is foolish except you thinke Priests to be without bodies Princes without soules which were a mery deuise The spirituall regiment which Christ hath ouer the faithfull in his Church is infinitely before the temporal regiment of Princes ouer their subiects But if by this you would inferre that good Princes may not punish euill Priestes you deface godlinesse and trueth in Princes as temporall and exact wickednesse and error in Priestes as spirituall which is more than absurde As for the right functions of Preachers and Princes if that bee the matter you speake of for you speake so doubtfully that wee can gather no certaintie what you meane know you that as in spiritual perfection and consolation the Preacher excelleth the Prince by many decrees God hauing appointed Preachers not Princes to bee the sowers of his seede messenges of his grace stewardes of his mysteries so for externall power and authoritie to compell punish which is the point that we stande on God hath preferred the Prince before the Priest so long as the Prince commaundeth that which God alloweth And in this case wee make not temporall aboue spirituall as you tricke it with termes but auouch that the same God who teacheth the simple and leadeth the willing by the Preachers mouth driueth the negligent and forceth the froward by the Princes sword which himselfe that is a spirit and the father of spirites hath ordained to that end The mystical bodie of Christ which is his church containeth not only Prists bishops but all the faithfull in heauenly graces inward vertues far exceedeth all earthly kingdomes and yet hath God himselfe authorized the sword on earth in Princes handes to be keepers
father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
his brethren vnprofitable slacke in his office silent in that which is good hurtfull to himselfe all others yea though hee leade with him innumerable soules by heapes to the diuell of hell yet let no mortal man presume to find fault with him or reproue him for his doings This is the subiection which your holy father wold haue which you count vs absurd for not acknowledging But may we not iustly say to you as S. August saide to the Donatistes This which you affirme that al the worlde must bee subiect to one man as to Christs Uicar Did God or man tell it you If God read it vnto vs out of the law the Prophets the Psalms the Apostolical or Euangelicall writings Read it if you can which hitherto you ueuer coulde But if men haue saide it or rather no men but your selues beholde the deuise of men beholde what you worship behold what you serue behold wherefore you rebel you rage you waxe madde Phi. If you will not bee subiect to the Pope as Christes Uicar and head of the Church which no doubt he is yet haue you no colour to withstande his authoritie as hee is and euer was Patriarke of the West Theo. His vicarshippe to Christ and headshippe ouer the Church bee thinges that you speake much of but shewe small proofe for It were good you woulde either prooue them or not presume them as you doe they bee matters of greater weight than that you may carie them away with your faire lookes Patriarke of the West wee graunt he was which is a foule fall from head of the Church and Uicar generall to Christ himselfe and yet this way you come too short of your reckoning For first the tytle and authoritie of Archbishoppes and Patriarkes was not ordayned by the commaundement of Christ or his Apostles but the Bishops long after when the Church began to bee troubled with dissentions were content to lincke themselues together and in euery Prouince to suffer one whome they preferred for the worthines of his Citie and called their Metropolitane that is Bishoppe of the chiefe or mother Citie to haue this prerogatiue in all doubts of Doctrine and discipline to assemble the rest of his brethren or consult them absent by letters and see that obserued which the most part of them determined Before there beganne schismes in religion the Churches sayth S. Hierom were gouerned by the common Councell of the Seniors And therfore Episcopi nouerint se magis consuetudine quam dominicae dispositionis veritate Presbyteris esse maiores Let the Bishoppes vnderstand that they bee greater than ministers or elders rather by Custome than by any trueth of the Lordes appointment and that they ought to gouerne the Church in common And in his Epistle to Euagrius hauing fully prooued by the Scriptures that the Apostles called themselues but Presbyteros Elders or Seniors he addeth Quod autē postea vnus electus est qui ceteris praeponereter in schismatis remedium factum est ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christiecclesiā rumperet That after their times one was chosen in euery Church and preferred before the rest to haue the dignitie of a Bishoppe this was prouided for a remedie against schismes lest euery man drawing some vnto him shoulde rent the Church of Christ in pieces For what doth a Bishop except ordering of others which an Elder may not doe And lest you should thinke he speaketh not as well of the chiefe as of the meaner Bishoppes hee compareth three of the greatest Patriarkes with three of the poorest Bishops he could name Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue Constantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tains eiusdem meriti eiusdem est Sacerdotij Potentia diuitiarum paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit ceterum omnes Apostolorum successores sunt A Bishop of what place soeuer hee be either of Rome or of Eugubium or of Constantinople or of Rhegium or of Alexandria or of Tains hath the same merite and the same function or Priesthood Abundance of riches or basenes of pouertie doeth not make a Bishoppe higher or lower for they all be successours to the Apostles So that the Bishoppe of Rome by commission from Christ and succession from the Apostles is no higher than the meanest Bishop in the worlde The superioritie which he and others had as Metropolitanes in their owne Prouinces came by custome as the great Councell of Nice witnesseth not by Christes institution Let the olde vse continue in Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishoppe of Alexandria bee chiefe ouer all those places for so much as the Bishoppe of Rome hath the like custome Likewise at Antioch and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe their prerogatiues The generall Councell of Ephesus confesseth the same It seemeth good to this sacred and oecumenicall Synode to conserue to euery prouince their right priuileges whole and vntouched which they haue had of olde according to the custome that now long hath preuayled Next their authoritie was subiect not only to the discretion and moderation of their brethren assembled in Councell but also to the lawes Edicts of Christian Princes to be graunted extended limited and ordered as they saw cause For example the first Councell of Constantinople aduaunced the Bishoppe of that Citie to bee the next Patriarke to the Bishoppe of Rome which before he was not And the Councel of Chalcedon made him equall in ecclesiasticall honours with the Bishoppe of Rome and assigned him a larger Prouince than before he had So Iustinian gaue to the Citie in Africa that he called after his owne name the See of an Archbishoppe Archiepiscopale munus quod Episcopo Iustinianeae Carthaginis Africanae Dioeceseos dedimus conseruari iubemus Sed aliae ciuitates atque horum Episcopi quibus passim in diuersis locis ius Metropoliticum concessum est in perpetuum hoc priuilegio perfruuntor The Archiepiscopal dignitie which wee gaue to the Bishoppe of Iustinianea within the Prouince of Africa we commaund to continue still And likewise let other Cities and their Bishops to whom in diuers places and Countries the right of Metropolitanes hath beene graunted enioy that priuilege for euer The same Prince as you heard before commanded the Archbishops and Patriarkes of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem and generally subiecteth them in ecclesiasticall causes and iudgements to the sacred Canons and his Imperiall Lawes as appeareth expressely in his publike Edicts made to that end Thirdly by the right and auncient diuision of prouinces this Realme was not vnder the Bishoppe of Rome For when the Bishoppes of Africa praied Innocentius either to send for Pelagius the Britan or to deale with him by letters to shewe the meaning of his lewde speaches tending to the derogation of Gods grace the Bishoppe of Rome made
loue may abound yet more and more in knowledge in all iudgement that you may discerne the thinges which are best He that is spirituall discerneth all thinges You may haue a thowsand like both places proofes that the faithfull should looke and take heede that they be not seduced And except you will excuse the people before God if you misleade them why should you bar them al trial vnderstanding whether they folow faith vnto saluation or withdraw theÌ„selues vnto perdition WheÌ„ the blind leadeth the blind and they fall both into the pit of destruction is not hee that followeth as sure to perish as he that leadeth Phi. We be content they shall bee discerners but no iudges of their Pastors Theo. And Bishops themselues be no iudges but discerners of truth Phi. We be froÌ„ the matter that we began with we were speaking of Princes The. We bee right enough Princes haue the same charge to obey the trueth beware false Prophets that priuate men haue ergo they must haue the same freedome to discerne spirites and refuse straunge doctrines that all the faithfull haue Christ hath not appointed one way for Princes an other for their people to come by the knowledge of his wil but the same way for both Ergo the precepts which I last alleadged also the former pertaine to Magistrates as well as to subiects to make the rule more generall in discerning beleeuing and obeying the truth there is no distinctions of persons with God Phi. We receiue your rule infer vpon it that these words of S. Paul Obey your rulers bind as well Princes as priuate men to be subiect to Bishops The. Take with you this limitation which haue spoken to you the word of God which S. Paul giueth euen in the same chap. infer what you can To Bishops speaking the worde of God Princes as wel as others must yeeld obedieÌ„ce but if Bishops passe their commission and speake besides the worde of God what they list both Prince and people may despise them With this limitation our Sauiour sent his Apostles into the worlde Go teach all Nations but what To obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you And this the Apostles them-selues do not conceale in doing their message The word of the Lord saith Peter indureth for euer and this is the word which is preached among you That which we haue seene saith Iohn heard that declare we to you that ye may haue felloship with vs. Let a man saith Paul so think of vs as of the ministers of Christ stewards of the mysteries of God And as for the rest it is requisite in stewardes that euery man be found faithful And to the Galat. Though we our selues or an Angel from heauen preach vnto you otherwise than that we haue preached vnto you let him be accursed Preach I now man or God I certifie you brethren that the Gospel which was preached of me was not after maÌ„ for I neither receiued it of man neither was I taught it by maÌ„ but by the reuelatioÌ„ of Iesus Christ. And this maketh him so diligeÌ„tly distinguish the precepts of Christ from his own counsels To the maried I command not I but the Lord to the rest I speake and not the Lord Yea hee requireth of them no more but that they follow him so far forth as he followeth Christ Be ye followers of me eueÌ„ as I am of Christ that is no longer nor farther than I â—ollow Christ. Chrysostom alleadging the words of S. Paul Obey your ouerseeers doth thus limit them Si quidem fidei dogma peruertat etiamsi Angelus sit obedire noli But if hee peruert any point of faith though hee be an Angell obey him not And streight after Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet si quid dixerit proprium si quid hymanuÌ„ sed Apostolo ChristuÌ„ in se loquenteÌ„ circumferenti We must not obey Paul himself if he speak any thing of his own or as a maÌ„ but we must obey the Apostle bearing Christ about that speaketh in him Nobis nihil ex nostro arbitrio indulgere licet It is not lawful for vs saith TertulliaÌ„ to deuise any thing of our selues nor to follow that which others haue deuised We haue the Apostles of the Lord for our authors who deuised nothing of their own heads but deliuered faithfully to the nations the doctrine which they receiued of Christ. Therfore though an Angel froÌ„ heauen should preach otherwise we should couÌ„t him accursed Euery teacher is a seruant of the law because he may neither ad of his own sense vnto the law nor according to his own coÌ„ceit take any thing froÌ„ the law but preach that onely which is founde in the law If Apostles and Angels bee tied to this condition much more others our first addition which speake vnto you the worde of God is euerywhere intended in the Bishops function though it be not expressed Phi. If Bishops then speake the word of God Princes must obey them The. If princes resist the word of truth in the Preachers mouth they resist not the messenger but the master that sent him Phi. Hence we conclude that Bishops be superiour to Princes Theo. By what Logicke Phi. Princes must obey Bishops speaking the word of God ergo Bishops be superiour to Princes Theo. If Bishops spake to Princes in their owne names your argument were somwhat but since they speak to them as seruants in their masters name which is Lord of all and ouer all your consequent is very foolish For let any Prince send his seruaÌ„t in a message to the Nobles of his Realm wil you reason thus The seruant speaking in the princes name that which is coÌ„manded him must be obeied of the Nobles ergo the seruaÌ„t is superiour to the Nobles I thinke you will not or if you do you reason very loosely Phi. If the seruant haue commission from the Prince though he be neuer so meane and the Nobles haue none well they may excell him in Nobilitie but sure he excelleth them in authoritie Theo. He doth in those thinges which his Commission reacheth vnto Phi. But Bishops haue commission from God to rule yâ— church ergo they be superior to princes in the regiment of the church Our assumptioÌ„ we proue by S. Paul Take heed to your selues to the whol flock wherin the holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops to rule the church of God Theo. Your lucke is euil to light on such vnperfect proofes I told you before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie to feed the church or flocke of Christ not to rule You now catch hold of the same corruption againe make it the ground of your conclusion If you trust not vs your selues in your Rhemish Testament haue so translated the word in S. Peter Feed the flock of God which is amoÌ„g you which is in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very children knowe that these three wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A sheepeheard his flocke and to feede haue one and the same deriuation and therefore one and the same signification The holy Ghost himselfe vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Synonima that is words of the same power force For when Christ repeated this charge feed my sheep thriseâ— to Peter in the Gospel of S. Iohn his words are the secoÌ„d time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the third time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now draw your assumptioÌ„ from S. Pauls wordes rightly translated what conclude you Bishops haue commission from God to feede the Church or flocke of Christ which Princes haue not ergo Bishops by their calling may preach and Princes may not This is al you can infer and this is nothing against vs. Phi. They be superiors to Princes in feeding the flock of Christ ergo they be their superiors Theo. That sequele is not good In building Masons be superiour to Princes in sayling Mariners in fighting Souldiers be these men ergo simplie superiour to Princes I trow not Phi. Preaching the word dispensing the Sacraments pardoning the sinnes or men which are the Bishops charge be things far greater higher than any that Princes haue Theo. The perfection operation of these things which you name depend not on the wils of men but on the power of God therefore the honor estimation of them must serue for the praise of Gods glorie not for the increase of mans pride The Ghostly worke is Gods the bodilie seruice is the Priests wherein Iudas the thiefe Simon the sorcerer and Demas the renegate may chalenge as much as Iames the iust Peter the zealous and Iohn the faithfull the three pillers of Christs church Per ministros dispares Dei munuâ— equale est quia non illorum sed eius est By ministers far vnlike the gift of God saith Augustine is the same because it is not theirs but his Christ sent him that betraied him with the rest of his Disciples to preach the kingdom of heaueÌ„ to shew that the gifts graces of God are bestowed on theÌ„ which receiue the same with faith though he that deliuereth them be as bad as Iudas The things which God giueth saith Chrysostom caÌ„ not be made perfect by the holines of the Priest for all is done by his heauenly grace Only the Priests office is to open his mouth but it is God that worketh all the Priest doth only accomplish the external signe or act Men saith Ambrose in the remission of sinnes ministerium suum exhibeÌ„t non ius alicuius potestatis exercent do their seruice but exercise no right of authority They pray God giueth the seruice is by man the gift is froÌ„ the heauenly power Preaching the word is a worthier part of Apostolike dignity thaÌ„ ministring the sacraments by the witnes of S. Paul himself saying Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach the gospel And yet of preachers the scripture saith Neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the increase So that neither in the word nor sacraments you may chalenge any thing to man but only the corporal seruice which is common to the godly with heretiks hypocrits the rest is proper to God may not be ascribed to men without iniurie to him that is the true author of them mighty worker in theÌ„ And therefore the reason which you draw from the perfection of Gods graces in the Church to the preferring aduauncing of the Bishops person before the Princes is very vitious because the subiection reueÌ„ge due to the sword is imparted to the Princes person the dignitie vertue of the word sacraments is not to the Bishops Phi. The Priests commission is higher than the Princes why should not the priests person be aboue the Princes The. The priest hath his coÌ„mission as a seruant to cal for subiection obedience not vnto himself but vnto his Lord Master that sent him And this subiection because it is giuen to God infinitely exceedeth that which Princes may looke for But what is this to the Priests person who must preach himself to be The seruant of meaner men thaÌ„ Princes make himself The seruant of al men if he note wel the words of his commission and not striue with Princes for superioritie Phi. For their persons I wil not greatly staÌ„d with you but certainly their power is aboue the princes The. You â—un so fast that you forget where you should be We were debating who should direct princes in matters of faith you be slipt from that entring a new questioÌ„ who shal correct theÌ„ where the former is yet vnfinished Phi. You did coÌ„fesse that princes must obey Bishops so long as they speak truth The. And you would not deny but princes might refuse bishops if they swarued froÌ„ faith Phi. But who shal be iudge whether they swarue froÌ„ faith or no Theo. That is the question which I said was not yet resolued If Bishops teach truth surely princes must obey theÌ„ I mean the word of truth in their mouthes If they go froÌ„ truth theÌ„ princes must auoide theÌ„ To this we both consent but the doubt is whether trueth bee tyed to some certaine Persons or places where Princes may find it whence Princes must fet it or else whether Princes as all others must vse the best meanes they can to discerne true Preachers from false and so be directed by such as they thinke to be sent from God Phi. You would haue Princes and others leane to their owne iudgements and follow their owne fansies We would haue them sticke to the Church and looke to those Pastours whose faith can not faile Theo. Such Pastours bee worth the following if you can point vs to them Phi. Peters fayth can not fayle follow that faith and you can not misse the trueth Theo. He that keepeth Peters fayth in deede can not want the trueth because Peter beleeued the truth but we bee nothing the nearer for this Pauls fayth was likewise trueth and so was the faith of Matthew Iames Iohn Iude and others but who must be credited what fayth Peter and the rest preached Shall we take that at your hands by report or at their owne mouthes by writing Phi. If their writings were not darke or might not bee wrested the Scriptures were the best witnesses of their doctrine but now their successours must rather be trusted than euery man suffered to take what fayth he list out of their writings Theo. Rather so than worse doth not answere my question but must we trust their successours in matters of faith against or besides their writings Phi. Against their writings we must not besides their writings we must For many things are beleeued which are not expressed in the scriptures The.
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
of the cause and we bring Tertullian not to commend Montanus error but to shewe what the Bishoppe of Rome did Phi. He beganne to like them but it tooke not effect Theo. Hee wrate letters of peace to the Montanists and sent them away which is enough to conuince that he erred though hee after relented from his former enterprise How Mercellinus Bishoppe of Rome sacrificed vnto Idols and denyed it when it was obiected to him and was after reproued by sufficient witnesse and condemned for it the Synod extant in your first booke of councels doth declare and Damasus writing the liues of his predecessours doth testifie the same Phi. Hee fell in persecution but he repented after and suffered for Christ as Peter did Theo. And therefore the Bishoppe of Rome may fall from the faith for so did Peter and Marcellinus but whether he shal be renewed by repentance as they were that is neither knowne to you nor beleeued of vs. Phi. We care not if they fall so they rise againe Theo. We proue they may fal Proue you they shall not choose but rise againe Phi. They haue all done so that yet are mentioned and so did Liberius whō I knowe you will name next although wee may worthily doubt whether euer hee fell or no. Theo. You and your fellowes make a doubt of it but I see no reason why you should For it is confirmed by many sounde and sufficient witnesses who both for the time when and place where they liued did and might best know the trueth of that matter Phi. Ruffinus doubteth of it Theodoretus denyeth it and Socrates inclineth rather to vs than otherwise Theo. Ruffinus sayth whether it were so or no pro certo compertum non habeo I know not for a certaintie Socrates maketh neither with it nor against it but passeth it ouer with silence And so doth Theodorete onely hee sayth the Emperour at the supplication of the Gentlewomen of Rome Flecti se passus iussit optimum quidem Liberium de exilio reuocari Suffering him self to be intreated commaunded the good bishop Liberius to bee called from banishment But this excludeth not his subscription before hee receiued his place which Sozomene writeth The Emperour at the intercession of the West Bishoppes recalleth Liberius from Beroea whither hee was banished and assembling the Bishoppes that were in his tents compelleth him to confesse the sonne of God not to bee of the same substance with his father Basilius Eustathius and Eleusius induced Liberius to consent by this meanes that some vnder the colour of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did labour secretly to confirme heresie When this was done the Emperour gaue him leaue to go to his Bishopricke Phi. Will you beleeue Sozomene before the rest that report no such thing Theo. Their silence doth not preiudice his Storie And yet Sozomene is not the first author of this report Athanasius who liued in the same age with Liberius and for whose cause Liberius was banished therefore woulde say no more than truth by him witnesseth no lesse Liberius post exactum in exilio biennium inflexus est minisque mortis ad subscriptionem inductus est Liberius after two yeres spent in banishment inclined by feare of death was induced to subscribe Damasus that was Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius and therfore could not be ignorant of the trueth and woulde not belie his owne See saith of him Ingressus Liberius in vrbem Roman◠4. nonas Augusti consensit Constantio haeretico Non tamen rebaptizatus est sed consensum praebuit Liberius entering the citie of Rome the 4. of the nones of August consented to Constantius the heretike He was not rebaptized but hee gaue his consent Hierom brought vp at Rome in the time of Liberius and after so neere Damasus that hee was his right hand in answering all Synodal consultations and in that respect had often and easie accesse to the Recordes and monuments of the Church of Rome writeth of Fortunatianus Bishoppe of Aquileia In hoc habetur detestabilis quod Liberium Romanae vrbis Episcopum pro fide ad exilium pergentē primus solicitauit ac fregit ad subscriptionem hareseos compulit In this he is coūted detestable that he first attempted Liberius the Bishoppe of Rome going into banishment for the fayth and preuayled with him and gate him to subscribe to the Arrian heresie In his addition to Eusebius Chronicle hee saith as much Liberius taedi◠victus exilij in haereticam prauitatem subscribens Romā quasi victor intrauerat Liberius wearied with his banishment and subscribing to hereticall prauitie had entered Rome as a conquerour We aske not what authoritie you haue to counteruaile these wee knowe you haue none but what reason haue you to resist these Phi. The rest agree not with them Theo. Omission in one writer is no good argument against an other foure affirme it and euery one of thē elder and likelier to come by the trueth than Theodorete yet Theodorete doth not gainsay but only ouerskip the fact If therefore to claw the Bishoppe of Rome you refuse the consent of Athanasius Hierom Damasus and Sozomene you doe but discouer your follie to the wiser sort and hazard your credite with the simple If you receiue their testimonie touching this fact then is there no doubt but the Bishop of Rome subscribed vnto Arianisme and whether hee repented or no wee may worthily doubt since your owne Stories auouch the contrarie Phi. Which of our Stories Theo. Martinus Polonus Vincentius and others Martinus saith Constantius recalled Liberius from banishment because he had agreed to him and to the Arians and placed him againe in his Seate and so vnhappie Liberius held the Church of Peter sixe yeeres by violence then was the persecution great in the citie in so much that the Clergie men which were against Liberius were Martyred then also Eusebius a Priest suffered death for declaring Liberius to be an heretike And Damasus when he came to the Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius with open voyce condemned Liberius and all his acts Phi. I beleeue neither Vincentius nor Martinus in this case Theo. Your not beleeuing them sheweth your selfe to be partial not their report to be false Phi. Liberius surely continued not an Arrian Theo. That he subscribed to the Arrians we proue that he recanted his subscription you can not proue Phi. No doubt he did it though it bee not written Theo. So you presume though you want all proofe for it Phi. Neuer Bishoppe of Rome died an heretike Theo. What did Honorius whom the sixt generall Councell condemned and accursed after his death for heresie Phi. That Councel is shamefully corrupted by the Grecians Theo. If the Grecians copies did differ from yours you had some reason to charge thē with corruption but since your copies confesse the same howe could the Grecians inuade your libraries without your knowledge and raze
the Recordes that lay at Rome in your own keeping and the thing not spied Phi. A name is soone thrust in Theo. But whole sentences and whole leaues can not bee thrust in without stealing away the original laying a counterfeit in place thereof which was easie to be discerned Honorius cause is mentioned discussed in 26 seueral places of the councell two of his epistles repeated at large one of 9. skore 12. lines the other of threeskore and sixteene lynes which argue the whole councel to be forged or these branches concerning Honorius to be as sincere as the rest Phi. One Councell is soone corrupted Theo. But may you reiect your owne Recordes as forged and bring neither reason suspition nor probabilitie when by whom or how this was or could bee done Giue vs leaue to doe the like to the rest of your Romish Records where good cause leadeth vs and see what wil become of your Religion Phi. In deede this one we thinke to be forged Theo. A generall Councell repeating the matter which you sticke at more than twentie times and lying safe in your owne custodie you suspect to bee forged and vpon no ground but onely because it condemneth a Bishoppe of Rome for an heretike and yet you can not denie that but you must denie more Leo the second accursed Honorius his predecessour for the same heresie The seconde Councell of Nice which you greatly reuerence and call the seuenth generall Councell confesseth Honorius was condemned in the sixt generall Councell and themselues reiect him by name for an heretike whereto the Legates of Adrian then Bishoppe of Rome there present consented and subscribed Adrian the seconde in a Councell at Rome confessed that Honorius once Bishoppe of Rome was accused of heresie and condemned after his death by the consent of the Romane See and this his confession was read and allowed in the eight generall Councell of Constantinople If al these be forged that at Rome where your selues were the keepers how good cause haue we to suspect the rest of your euideÌ„ce which tend chiefly to vphold the Popes pride to encrease his gaine agree neither with theÌ„selues nor with the state of those times wherein they should be written nor with the best and approued stories of the Church Phi. Synce three generall Councels recken Honorius as condemned of heresie and specially the Decretall of Leo the second which the Bishoppes of Rome woulde soone haue disclaimed if it had beene suspected I dare not say that all these are forged for feare lest I ouerthrowe the credite of all Romane Recordes and therefore I thinke rather the Councell that first condemned him mistooke his meaning or that the letters which they sawe were written in his name by some euill willers of his both which cases are possible Theo. You mend this gappe and make a bigger You saue the Romane Libraries from corrupt Recordes and vpbrayde a generall councel with rash iudgement and lacke of vnderstanding for if they condemned Honorius not onely their brother but also their better as you take him and the head of the Church for an heretike and that after his death and either conceiued not the sense of his woordes or tooke not heede to the seale and subscription of his letters that those were Authentike they deseruâ—d not to bee counted Christians much lesse to goe for a lawfull and generall Councell And the Bishoppes of Rome that came after and confirmed the same when they might and should haue reprooued the Councell of indiscretion or malice and defended the innocencie of Honorius were not successours to him but conspiratours against him and so none of your shiftes are either sound or likely Howsoeuer you wrangle with the fact yet this is euident and without contradiction that three generall Councels eche after other were of opinion the Pope might liue and die an heritike and Agatho Leo Adrian the first and second all Bishoppes of Rome confessed thus much by their Decretals and yeelded thereto by their subscriptions Which if you graunt condemne or acquite Honorius of heresie at your pleasures Wee haue the full consent of the East and West Churches that the Bishoppe of Rome may erre which you at this present so stifly deny Phi. If one did erre the number is not so great Theo. If one did others may yet I haue named three that were condemned for heresie and Apostasie Marcellinus Liberius Honorius and moe I might that erred in like manner as Vigilius Anastatius Celestinus and others but I see you are determined to beleeue none that make against you in this point and therefore I were as good saue my labour as spend longer time with one that is past all sense Phi. If you prooue they erred I will not defende them Theo. But in reporting their sayings and doings you giue credite to none bee they neuer so indifferent and auncient Phi. Wee credite them if a greater number of writers doe not contradict them Theo. If certaine late fauourers of the Pope without trueth or shame doe gainesay the Stories that went before them thinke you the partiall and corrupt writinges of such men woorthie to bee taken against others that bee both elder and syncerer Phi. I euer goe with antiquitie and vniuersalitie Theo. But when you come to the push you care neither for fathers nor Councels Prouinciall nor generall if they crosse your affections or touch the Popes ambition There ancient writers liuing in the same time with Liberius affirme that he subscribed to the Arrians and Sozomene that wrate within 40. yeres of the deed doing saith no lesse you beleeue neither them nor your owne stories which with one consent followed that report till some in our age to make the Popes Tribunal infallible began not only to doubt but also to deny Liberius fact Two general Councels condemne Honorius for an heretike and the third auouâ—heth him to haue been condemned not without the knowledge of his successours the bishops of Rome that came after him You regard neither Popes nor Synods where they say that Honorius erred in other things where you thinke they make with you they shall be sacred and auncient fathers Councels as though you were not bound to yeeld vnto trueth but that onely were trueth which liked you Phi. Liberius was forced and Honorius deceiued with a likelyhood of trueth this is all you can get of these sacred and ancient fathers and Councels Theo. We need no more No man falleth from the faith but he is either forced or deceiued and yet this wee get besides which we most esteeme that these fathers and Councels were of opinion and saw by experience the Bishop of Rome did and might erre Yeeld to this and wee remit you the rest Phi. Not till I see what else you will bring You talke of Vigilius and Anastasius but I thinke more than you can proue Theo. Of Vigillius
sworde which the Prince and not the Priest beareth in Gods behalfe to force refusers and chastiâ—e malefactours as I before at large haue proued And so by consequent Princes are neither bound to the Popes hest for direction nor in daunger of the Popes court for correction but that they may by the aduise and instruction of such as bee learned and godly pastors about them vse their swords for the receiuing setling of trueth and perfect establishing of Christs wil testament within their owne realmes without expectâ—ng or regarding what the bishops of Rome and his adherentes like or allow Phi. But all this while you resolue not who shall be iudge which is the true will and Testament of Christ. Theo. Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe We find no place nor person to whom the sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his wil but only to himselfe Phi. You bind the people to followe the Prince which of all others is the worst way to come by truth Theo. We bind no man to prince nor Pope for matters of faith Only we say subiects must endure their princes with patience when they command for error obey them with diligence when they maintaine the truth Farther or other seruitude in causes of conscience wee lay on no man and that burden the church of Christ neuer refused neither vnder heretikes Apostataes nor infidels til the Pope growing great by the ruine of the Empire and encreasing as fast in pride as he did in wealth would needs giue the aduenture to rule kingdomes depose Princes though by Gods lawe hee haue no more power nor iurisdiction ouer them than any other Bishop hath which is so farre from that he claimeth and vsurpeth that he as well as other Bishops should be subiect to the sword and obedient to the lawes of the Romane Emperour and so was hee as I haue plainely shewed to the time that forsaking the Grecians and reuolting from the Germanes hee learned to chaunge Lords so often that at length what with sedition of subiects dissention of princes superstition of al sorts the mysterie of iniquitie working he made himselfe Lord and master of all Phi. You bee lothe I see to yeeld the bishop of Rome any right to force princes to their dueties Theo. And you be as willing he should not only take their crownes but tread on their neckes though hee haue no right to superuise their doings or censure their persons Phi. If it be not his right we aske it not Theo. If it be his right we resist it not Phi. Will you admit it if we proue it Theo. Will you not claime it except you proue it Phi. We will not Theo. Then say what you will or can for the confirmation of it THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie Phi. THE Pope may reproue Princes excommunicate them and if neede bee depose them which other Bishoppes can not doe Theo. Seuer these thinges which you ioyne togither and the truth will the sooner appeare Reproue them he may when they violate the precepts of God and so may any other Bishop or teacher For God hath placed them in his church to teach reproue instruct reforme as wel Princes as others charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince The will of God must be declared to all and sinne reproued in all without dissembling or flattering with any sort or State of men and that is most expedient for all euen for Princes themselues rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation than to run to their owne destruction without recalling or warning So Samuel reproued king Saul Ahias king Ieroboam Elias king Achab Elizeus king Iehoram Iohn Baptist king Herod Neither were wicked Princes onely but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets as namely king Dauid by Nathan king Iehosaphat by Iehu and Ezechias by the Prophet Esaie but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them and their dueties againe towardes him They neuer offered violence to their Persons nor preiudice to their States onely they did Gods message vnto them without halting or doubling and so should euery Preacher and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part But farther or other attemptes against Princes than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God God hath not permitted vnto Preachers Prophets Prelats nor Popes Phi. Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes which is more than reprouing them in words Theo. If you meane they may not minister the Sacramentes vnto Princes without faith and repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table we graunt they must rather hazard their liues than baptize Princes which beleeue not or distribute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not but giue wilful and open signification of impietie to the dishonoring of his name that is authour of those thinges and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboundaunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and conuert they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes but with lowlines of hart assuraunce of fayth and amendment of life submit themselues vnder the mighty hand of God to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall ouerthrowe and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe as much as the vices of meaner men or rather more No small vengeance sayth Chrysostom hangeth ouer your heades which be ministers if you suffer any heynous offendour to be partaker of this table His blood shall be required at your hands Whether he be Captaine Lieutenant or crowned king if hee come vnworthily forbid him in this case thy power is greater than his Phi. If they may be excommunicated ergo they may be deposed Theo. How doth that follow Phi. Well enough When a Prince is excommunicated hee looseth all right to rule and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeelding any obedience to him Theo. Who tould you so Phi. No catholike Diuine of
superficial it skilleth not refel it or receiue it Theo. Marke the strength of your argument Needlesse companie with idolatrous wicked persons is prohibited ergo the necessarie subiection to Princes which God commandeth may be refused Phi. We say not needelesse companie but all companie Theo. S. Paul by that worde excludeth not charity much lesse duetie but barreth only that familiaritie which may be relinquished without breach of either Phi. That is your paraphrase not S. Pauls Theo. Weigh the wordes of S. Paul better and your selfe will bee of the same minde with me Thus he saith I wrote vnto you by letters that ye should not keepe companie with fornicatours and I ment not simplie with the fornicatours of this worlde or with the couetous or with extorsioners or with idolatours for then must you goe out of the world But now haue I written to you that you shoulde not bee companions with such If anie man that is called a brother be a Whoore-master or couetous or an idolater or a railer or a drunkard or an extorter eate not with such an one To eate with a man is familiaritie that may be forborne without contempt of Christian Charitie or dutie and that the Apostle willeth them to refraine teaching the Thessalonians to what end and in what sort he would haue it doone If any man obay not our sayings note him by a letter and haue no companie with him that he may be ashamed yet count him not as an enimie but admonish him as a brother When as yet there were no Christian magistates to keepe men by feare from offending S. Paul chargeth the Christians to shew their zeale in shunning the companie of vnruly persons at meate and other familiar meetinges thereby the rather to make them ashamed and to reduce them to Christian and comly behauiour Which precept was general for all disorders We commaund you brethren in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that you withdraw your selues frō euery brother that walketh inordinately not after the institution which you receiued of vs. Phi. For smaller offences this might be but for heresie S. Paul saith A man that is an hertike after the first and second admonition auoide And so doth S. Iohn If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine receiue him not into your house nor say God saue you vnto him If we may not so much as salute them doe you thinke we may serue them or obey them Theo Were you in debt to an heretike would you not pay him his own because you must not salute him Phi. Debt is dew whether he be Turke Infidel or heretike therefore reason he haue his owne but I must not do that which I neede not Theo. And whether thinke you the truer debt that which groweth by our act and consent or that which is imposed vppon vs by the will and commaundement of God As when S. Paul saith Owe nothing to any man but giue to all men their due Do you not think this as good debt as if it were in coyne Phi. If it be their due Theo. We owe it not if it be not due but if it be must we not render that which is due to all men be they Turks infidels and heretikes Phi. To heretiks nothing is due Theo. Doth not the seruant owe faithful diligence to his master notwithstanding his master be an infidel or an heretik Phi. If the master become an heretik the seruant is ipso facto made free Theo. By whose law Gods or mans Phi. By the ciuill lawes of auncient Emperours Theo. But before those lawes were made by Princes might seruants by Gods law refuse their masters for idolatry or heresie Phi. For idolatrie he might not whatsoeuer for heresie The. If God wil haue christiā seruāts obediēt subiect to their masters in al things to please thē though they be infidels enimies to the faith why not likewise to them that are deceiued in some points of faith The like we aske of man and wife Might the husband forsake his wife or the woman her husband for these causes Phi. For infidelitie they might Theo. And what for heresie Ph. The case is not ruled Theo. Yeas that it is Our Sauiour forbiddeth all men to put awaie their wiues except it bee for adulterie Now adulterie is not heresie And this was Pope Caelestinus his errour which Innocentius the 3. cōdemneth Therfore the case is ruled both by Gods Law and by your own Decretals Phi. They may not bee diuorced Theo. Then must she continue still his wife and is by Gods lawe bounde to bee subiect vnto him and to loue him though he be an heretike or an infidel And so are the children bound to cherish honor and obey their Parentes by the Lawe of God notwithstanding they be Ethnikes or aliens from the faith And therefore these prohibitions Eate not with them keepe them not companie salute them not discharge not seruants children nor wiues for yeelding that duetie to their masters parentes and husbandes which God hath commaunded but cut off onely that familiar and friendly greeting saluting conuersing which amongest brethren is requisite but to wicked and vngodly persons may without sinne be denied Phi. What then is your answere Theo. S. Paul forbiddeth voluntarie companie not necessarie duetie S. Iohn those familar and friendly salutations which argue good liking and fauour to the parties and may bee forborne not that publike subiection to Magistrats which God hath inioyned vs whether we will or no. Phi. Ought we to flatter Princes if they be heretik◠Theo. We may flatter no man in that which is euill yet must we giue euill mē that which God hath allowed them The places which you bring barre no kinde of duetie prescribed by the law of God neither of seruauntes to their masters nor of children to their parentes nor of wiues to their husbandes though their masters parentes and husbands be heretikes much lesse doe they prohibite submission to Princes which God exacteth before these domestical duties and commaundeth all men Apostles and Bishops not excepted to giue feare honour subiection and tribute to Princes as their due when Princes as yet were pernicious idolaters and barbarous persecutors of the faith faithfull And who that hath any regard of trueth will preferre your crooked shapelesse consequēts before the manifest doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars You must bee subiect whosoeuer resisteth power resisteth the ordinance of God Honour the king and submit your selues whether it be to the king as the chiefe excelling or vnto the Gouernors as sent by him For so is the wil of God These be flat plaine precepts which you can not ouerthrow but with an euident direct and speciall release The directions which the Apostles gaue to shame the disordered
depriue Princes of their Crownes and take their Scepters from them because the Apostle willed the christians to be tried rather by their brethreÌ„ than by their enemies which were Infidels Phi. In all which there is no difference betwixt kinges that bee faithfull and other Christian men who all in that they haue submitted themselues and their Scepters to the sweete yoke of Christ are subiect to discipline and to their Pastors authority no lesse than other sheepe of his fold Theo. In beleeuing the word receiuing the Sacraments and obeying the Lawes of God there is no difference betweene the Ruler and the Subiect but the temporall states and possessions of priuate men you may not meddle with by no color of ecclesiastical power or discipline much lesse may you touch the bodies or take the Crownes of Princes into your handes by your accidentall indirect authoritie which is nothing else but a sillie shift of yours to crosse the commaundements of God Phi. Though the state regiment policie and power temporall be in it selfe alwaies of distinct nature qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall common wealth called the church or bodie mysticall of Christ and the Magistrate spirituall and ciuill diuerse and distinct and sometimes so farre that the one hath no dependance of the other nor subalteration to the other in respect of themselues as it is in the Churches of God residing in heathen kingdoms and was in the Apostles times vnder the Pagan Emperours yet now where the lawes of Christ are receiued and the bodies politike and mysticall the Church and ciuill state the Mâ—gistrate Ecclesiasticall and Temporall concurre in their kinds togither though euer of distinct regimentes natures and endes there is such a concurrence and subalternation betwixt both that the inferiour of the two which is the ciuill state must needs in matters pertayning any way either directly or indirectly to the honor of God and benefit of the soule be subiect to the spirituall and take direction from the same Theo. This is tossing of termes as men doe tenez-balles to make pastime with The state regiment policie and power temporall is in it selfe you saie alwaies of distinct nature qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall Common-wealth called the Church or bodie mysticall of Christ. You seeke to confound that which you would seeme to distinguish and when you haue spent much breath to no ende you conclude that though the church and the Common-wealth be distinct states as you can not denie yet you will rule both by reason the Common-wealth as the inferiour of the two dependeth on the Church and hath subalternation to the church as to the superiour But Sir in plaine termes and more trueth to the Sonne of God ruling in his Church by the might of his worde and spirite all kingdomes and Princes must be subiect their swordes Scepters soules and bodies mary to the Pope attyring himselfe with the spoiles of Christ and his church no such thing is due The watch-men and sheepeheardes that serue Christ in his church haue their kinde of regiment distinct from the temporall power and state but that regiment of theirs is by counsell and perswasion not by terrour or compulsion and reacheth neither to the goods nor to the bodies of any men much lesse to the crownes and liues of Princes and therefore your shifting of wordes and shrinking from the Popes Consistorie to the Church the spirituall Common wealth the mysticall bodie of Christ and such like houering and vncertaine speaches is but a trade that you haue gotten to make the Reader beleeue wee derogate from Christ and would haue Princes superiours to the worde and Sacramentes which Christ hath left to gather and gouerne the church withall Howbeit this course is so common with you that now it doth but shame you A christian king must take direction not from the Popes person or pleasure but from the Lawes and commaundementes of Christ to whome alone hee oweth subiection And as for the Bishoppes and Pastours of his Realme whome you falsly call the spirituall Common-wealth and the mysticall bodie of Christ because they bee but partes thereof and not so much except withall they bee teachers of truth those he must and should consult in respect they be Gods messengers sent to him and his people but with great care to trie them and free libertie to refuse them if they be found not faithfull And when the Prince learning by their instruction what is acceptable to God in doctrine and discipline shall receiue and publish the same the Bishoppes themselues are bounde to obey and if they will not the Magistrate may lawfully see the rigour of his lawes executed vpon them On the other side if the Prince wil not submit himselfe to the rules and preceptes of Christ but wilfully maintaine heresie and open impietie the Bishops are without flatterie to reproue and admonish the Prince of the daunger that is imminent from God and if he persist they must cease to communicate with him in diuine prayers and mysteries but still they must serue him honour him and pray for him teaching the people to doe the like and with meekenesse induring what the wrath of the Prince shal lay on them without annoying his person resisting his power discharging his subiectes or remouing him from his throne which is your maner of censuring Princes Phi. The ciuill Gouernour is SVBIECT to the spirituall amongest christians Theo. I haue often tolde you howe The ciuill Gouernour must heare beleeue and obey the meanest seruaunt that God sendeth if hee speake no more than his Masters will That subiection Princes owe to the sender and not to the speaker But were they simplie subiect to the messengers of God as they are not will you reason thus Princes should obey the Preachers of God ergo if they doe not they may bee deposed This is the argument which wee so often haue denied why then labour you so much about the antecedent when we denie the consequent That Princes shoulde obey God and his worde is a clearer case than that they shoulde obey the Pope For of that no man doubteth and this wee not onely doubt but denie Take therefore that which is confessed on both sides and set your conclusion to it that the force of your reason may the better appeare Princes without all question are bounde to obey God ergo if they doe not their dueties to God they may be deposed by Priestes This is the sequele which we alwaies denied and this is the point which you first assumed to proue Phi. The condition of these two powers as S. Gregorie Nazianzen most excellently resâ—mbleth it is like vnto the distinct state of the same spirit and body or flesh in a man where either of them hauing their proper and peculiar operations endes and obiectes which in other natures may be seuered as in Brutes where flesh is not spirit in Angels
captiues and pray to the Lord for it for in the peace thereof shall you haue peace Which Tertullian witnesseth the christians did in all their publike assemblies Wee call vpon the euerlasting God for the health of our Emperours alwaies beseeching God to sende euerie of them long life happie raigne trustie seruantes valiant souldiers faithfull counsellours orderly subiectes and the worlde quiet and what soeuer people or Prince can wish for Examine your selues how farre you be from the innocencie and integritie of Christes church They wished all happinesse to heathen Princes and praied for the securitie of their liues and prosperitie of their states You curse and ban christian Princes and lay plots not onely for enimies to inuade them but for subiectes to shake off the yoke and shorten the daies of their naturall and lawfull Princes Phi. The church of Christ praied for her Princes if they were Pagans but not if they were heretikes Theo. What was Constantius a Pagan or an heretike Phi. An Arian Theo. For him the church praied Phi. For his conuersion Theo. For his health raigne and welfare Phi. Heretikes perhaps like himselfe did Theo. I say Catholiks Phi. It was then at the beginning of his raigne before his impietie was notorious Theo. About you fetch and all will not serue This testimonie that the church praied for Constantius though an heretike was giuen by a Councell of catholike Bishoppes in the 21. yeare of his raigne not long before his death Phi. Where finde you that the church praied for him Theo. Reade the two letters which the West Bishops sent from Ariminum to Constantius and see whether it be not cleare In the first thus they say Wee beseech you that you cause vs not to staie from our cures but that the bishops togither with the people seruing God in peace may humblie praie for your health kingdome and safetie in which the diuine Maiestie long preserue you The conclusion of their second letter is this For this cause we beseech your clemencie the second time most religious Lord and Emperour that you command vs to depart to our churches if it so please your godlines before the sharpnes of winter come that wee may make our accustomed praiers togither with the people to the almightie God and our Lord and Sauiour Christ for your imperie as we haue alwaies purposed and now wish to continue The writings of Hilarie and Athanasius to this verie Prince confirme the same We beseech your clemencie to permit saith Hilarie that the people may haue such teachers as they like such as they thinke well of such as they choose let them solemnize the diuine mysteries and make prayers for your safetie prosperitie Athanasius by his prayers made for this prince in the open assemblie of the people cleareth himselfe from hauing intelligence with Magnentius the murtherer of his brother With what eyes could I behold that bloodie homicide or howe coulde I but cal to minde your brothers face whiles I made my praiers for your health Howe coulde I indure to thinke euill of your brother or sende letters to his enimie and not rather pray and beseech God for your welfare which verily I did A witnesse hereof is first the Lord which hath giuen you the whole Empire that was left by your Fathers There can witnesse also with me Felicissimus the captaine of Aegypt Asternis the Earle Paladius the master of your Palace and others My wordes were Let vs pray for the welfare of the most religious Emperour Constantius and presently the whole people with one voice cryed O Christ bee fauorable to Constantius and this crie they continued a long time And appealing to the Emperours owne conscience knowledge You haue good triall that all the christians make their prayers and supplications to God that you may liue in safetie and continuallie raigne in peace And God graunt you O most gracious Prince to liue many yeares Heare you deaffe of yeares and dul of hartes the church of Christ praied for hereticall Princes in the middest of their impietie and tyrannie And when it was but obiected to Athanasius that hee and others wrote letters to one that rebelled and tooke armes against the Prince hee made answere Vincat quaeso apud the veritas ne relinquas suspicionem contra vniuer sam Ecclesiam quasi talia aut cogitentur aut scribantur à christianis potissimum Episcopis I beseech you let truth take place with you and leaue not this suspition vpon the catholike church as though any such things were written or thought on by Christians and especially by Bishoppes Howe farre then were these men from your humours which professe to depose Princes and not onlie licence Subiectes to rebell but incite them to kill their Soueraignes as you did lately Parry with pardon praise and recompence both here and in heauen Phi. They might do this in the beginning of his raigne before hee discouered his heresie Theo. These bee senslesse shiftes Hilarius wrote his booke after the Councell kept at Millan by Constantius and Athanasius his after Liberius was banished For those pointes be mentioned in their writinges and fell out the one immediatly before the other after the Councel of Ariminum And therefore the rathest of these defences came seuenteene yeares after the beginning of Constantius raigne and in the hoatest of his tyrannicall and hereticall persecution as the bookes themselues declare And yet they not onely indured but also obeyed him as their liege Lord and detested all resistance in deede and thought as vnlawfull for Christians and chiefly for Bishops Phi. But when in processe of time some Princes through Gods iust iudgement the peoples sinne were fallen to such contempt of religion as it lightly happeneth by heresie and Apostasie that excommunication being onely but a spirituall penaltie or other ordinarie Ecclesiasticall discipline would not serue then as well Bishops as other godlie persons their owne Subiectes did craue aide and armes of other Princes for their chastisement as most holie and auncient Popes euen in the olde dayes when the Protestants confesse them to haue beene godlie Bishoppes did incite catholike kinges to the same that those whom the spirituall rodde coulde not fruitfullie chastise they might by externe or temporall force bring them to order and repentaunce or at least defende their innocent Catholike Subiectes from vniust vexation Theo. You begin nowe to shewe your selues in your right kinde From the church you leape to the fielde meaning belike as Iulius the seconde did that since Peters keyes wil not pleasure you Paules sworde shall better steede you The side of your booke seemeth to direct vs when and vppon what occasion spirituall Pastours beganne to vse the temporall sword but the text it selfe runneth quite awrie Wee finde there neither time prefixed nor spirituall Pastour named that euer vsed the temporall sworde Are rebellions such trifles with you that you thinke to proue them with
for the Pope was not as earnest to haue him gone but he was as glad to go as willing neuer to returne And therfore to take his farewel he sould all the right title that the Emperour had throughout Italy as Blondus saith omâ—ia vbique concessit ex quibus pecunia abra di potuit passed away euery thing in euerie place by the which he might get any mony And as he did in Italy so did he in germany For laboring to haue his son VeÌ„celaus chosen his successor in the Empire wheÌ„ the electors wold not agree to it because the child had nothing in him fit for so great a calling the Emperor offered euery of the Electours a hundred thowsande poundes to goe through with the choice and so they did And not hauing mony sufficient to defraie such an infinite summe hee pawned the Landes and reuenues of the Empire into their handes till they were paied and so they remaine to this day Hence the Romane Empire came to naught neither was it euer after able to stand vpright the Princes Electors keeping al in their handes and swearing the Emperour when he is first chosen that he shall not claime such things as they haue of the Empire in morgage Vencelaus for whom his father paied 600000. pounds to haue him Emperour proued so vnprofitable for the place that the electours when Charles was deade of their authoritie put him from the crowne and set an other in his steede Some Princes of other countries you might repeate which I omit no man doubteth but your holy Fathers pride and arrogance serued him to venter on meaner Princes as well as on Emperours this is it that wee stand on for a thowsande yeares there was no such thing vsed nor offered in the church of Christ and since that time though Popes haue beene very forwarde to depose Princes you shall neuer shewe any Prince that acknowledged or obeyed that sentence yea none of their people vnder them nor of the borderers about them embraced those iudgementes but such as had secrete quarelles against them or sought to gaine some part of their kingdoms from them The rest of their subiects neighbours honoured them as Princes notwithstanding your furious lightning and thundering from Rome as I haue shewed by many specialties from the time of Henrie the fourth to these our dayes and an infinite number of your owne side haue by deedes and wordes boldly and sharpely reproued that insolent presumption And therefore if you doe any good in this cause you must goe higher and bring vs elder examples that Bishops of Rome haue deposed Princes than these violent and tragicall vproares of later Popes blinded with errour and puffed with pride who to compasse their vngodly desires haue ouerwhelmed the earth with fraude and force with periurie and iniquity with battaile bloodshed like furies of hel not like teachers of truth or Pastors of mens soules Could you proue tenne thowsand such attempts it would relieue you litle we may not leaue the manifest commaundements of God constant obedience of Christes church for so many hundreths and allow of those hatefull and heathenish deuises which the sonne of perdition hath lately broched Phi. Will you yeeld to an elder example if it be brought you Theo. Reason we know the man before we reuerence his act Phi. It shal be Gregorie the great first of that name whome you confesse to haue beene both learned and holy He being many hundreth yeares before Gregorie the seuenth and our speciall Apostle practised the poinct we now stand on and therefore likely to be beleeued of all reasonable men Theo. Did Gregorie the great euer depose Princes Phi. That he did Theo. Name the Prince which he deposed and winne the field Phi. He deposed them before hand whatsoeuer they were that shoulde at any time after to the worlds end impugne his priuilege Theo. Then he deposed princes not only before they were Crowned but also before they were conceiued of their mothers Phi. He adiudged they should be deposed that so offended though actually he deposed none In the forme of his priuilege graunted to S. Medardes Monasterie thus he decreeth Si quis Regum Antistitum Iudicum vel quarumcunque personarum secularium huius Apostolicae authoritatis nostrae praeceptionis decreta violauerit cuiuscunque dignitatis vel sublimitatis sit honore suo priuetur If any King Prelate Iudge or what other secular person soeuer shall transgresse this decree of our authoritie and commaundement of what preeminence of highth soeuer he be let him be depriued of his dignitie Theo. Why stoppe you there and goe no farther Phi. I neede not here is enough for my purpose Theo. Yet reade on the rest or if you will not I will Cum Iuda traditore Domini in inferno inferiori damnetur and let him be damned with Iudas the traytour in the nethermost hell Phi. There is nothing in this against vs. Theo. You might the better haue rehearsed it But think you that Gregorie did damne men to hel or reserue you that power only to Christ Phi. None can cast body and soule into hell fire but only God Theo. Doth Gregorie take Gods office from him Phi. No but he meaneth to terrifie them with this kinde of curse and praieth it may fal on their heades if they infringe his godly actes Theo. Then as Gregrie had no power to condemne Princes to hel though he threaten it to them no more had he right to depose Princes though he wish their ouerthrow if they frustrate his decrees It is therefore AN IMPRECATION or curse which in the like case the meanest founder that is may lay on the greatest Prince that shall be borne without any iudiciall authoritie It is no depriuation neither prosecuted nor purposed by the Bishop of Rome Phi. He saith Let him be depriued of his dignitie Theo. And know you not that is the optatiue mode by the which Gregorie wisheth and praieth it may come to passe but neither pronounceth nor perfixeth any such iudgement Phi. If it may come to passe then Princes may be deposed Theo. God hath many wayes to displace the mightie from their seats to whom Gregorie praieth for vengeance though the Pope be not the doer Phi. If this bee but a wish euerie doner may doe as much Theo. They be the verie woordes wherewith euerie doner doth strengthen his endowment And euen in this place Gregorie is not alone Thirtie Bishops of diuers cities subscribed to this graunt and curse in the selfe same wordes that Gregorie did Theodoricus the King and Brunichildis the Queene vsed the same manner of subscription that the Bishop of Rome did and the generall comprisement that presently followeth sheweth the wordes that went before to be but curses Omnium maledictionum anathemate let him be loden with al those heauie curses wherewith Infidels and
thou these thinges and who gaue thee this authoritie When Iohn began to baptize the Iewes sent priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to aske him WHO ART THOV And when hee denyed him-selfe to bee either Elias or the Prophete that was looked for they inferred Why Baptizest thou then if thou bee neither Christ nor Elias nor the Prophete And euen so they asked the Apostles by what power or in what name haue you done this Philand The Apostles commission wee knowe but yours wee know not Theo. You can not bee ignorant of ours if you knowe theirs So long as wee teache the same Doctrine which they did wee haue the same power and authoritie to preach which they had Keepe your competent iurisdictions iudiciall cognitions and legal decisions to your selfe the sonne of GOD first founded and still gathereth his church by the mouthes of Preachers not by the summons of Consistories and hee that is sent to preach may not holde his tongue and tarie til my Lorde the Pope and his mytred fathers can intende to meete and list to consent to the ruine as they thinke of their dignities and liberties Phi. Despise you Councels Theo. By no meanes so long as they bee Councels that is sober and free conferences of learned and godly teachers but if they waxe wanton against Christ and will not haue trueth receiued vntil they haue consented wee reiect them as conspiracies of the wicked which no Christian ought to reuerence Phi. Had you trueth on your side you sayd somewhat but you hâ—ue it not Theo. Then should that be the question betwixt vs not whether the Prince might make Lawes for Christ without your consents or whether the Realme had competent power and authoritie to debate and determine without a Councell what religion they woulde professe For though the Prince and the realme haue doone nothing herein that Gods and mans Lawe doth not warrant yet may wee not suffer you to stande on these quirks to delude God and his tâ—ueth against the which as Tertullian sayth no man may prescribe not space of tymes not patronage of persons not priuilege of places He therefore that defendeth trueth is armed with authoritie sufficient though all the world were against him as it was against Noah when GOD saued him and drowned them for a monument of his iustice to quaile the route and paire the pride of such as after shoulde resist the meanest seruaunt that hee woulde sende Phi. Still you ground your selues as if you had the trueth Theo. If we haue the poorest Preacher in this Realme hath lawfull power enough to pronounce the Pope and all his Cardinals to be heretikes and therefore whether we haue or no must be the question Phi. Wee say you haue not and yet if you had your proceedings in it are disorderly Theoph. You must shew vs some reason Phi. The Prince and Court of Parliament hath no more lawfull meanes to giue order to the Church and Clergie in these things than they haue to make Lawes for the hierarches of Angels in heauen Theo. Will you suffer God himselfe to make Lawes for his Church Phi. What else Theo. And may not euery priuate man for his owne person embrace those Lawes which God hath made whosoeuer say nay Phi. Hee must Theo. May not the Prince and the people doe the like Phi. They may no doubt embrace the Lawes of God Theo. What if some Bishoppes will not agree they shall must the Prince and the people cease to serue God till the Clergie bee better mynded Phi. That is odiously spoken Theo. But truely The case betweene the Clergie and the Laytie in the first Parliament of her Maiesties raigne was whether God shoulde bee serued according to his woorde or according to the deuises and abuses of the Romish Church The prince as also the Nobles and coÌ„mons submitted their consents to the word of God the Bishops refused The foundation of all the Lawes of our Countrie being this that what the Prince and the most part of her Barons and Burgesses shall confirme that shall stande for good there was no disorder nor violence offered in that Parliament as you lewdly complaine but that to publike protection which the Prince and most part had agreed on Phi. In matters of faith the Prince and the laie Lords had no voices Theo. In making lawes they had Phi. True but lawes for religion they might not prescribe Theo. No more might Bishops It is only Gods office to appoint how he wil be serued Phi. Gods wil must be learned at the mouthes of Bishops Theo. They must teach leauing alwayes this libertie to the Prince and people to examine their doctrine and auoide their errours and if they teach not truth the Prince and people may repell them as the Parliament did which you speake of Phi. The decision of truth or heresie pertained not to that Court. Theo. They tooke it not vpon them Phi. Yeas The determination decision and definition of truthes and errours of the true worshippe of God and the false is attributed to that Court no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other generall councell Theo. The simple Rustikes of our Countrie doe not so grossely conceiue of their actes and decrees as you doe that woulde seeme great maisters in Israell For who knoweth not that in diuers realms haue beene diuerse positiue lawes and in this kingdome within our age cleane contrary Parliamentes No man is therefore so foolish as to thinke it neither is any besides you so malicious as to report it that the temporall States of this Realme tooke vpon them the absolute deciding of truthes and errours aboue the four first generall Councels yea the holy scriptures themselues not excepted Phi. What did they then Theo. They submitted themselues and the publike state of this Realme to the word of God which by law they might as well as the same Court six yeares before in the first of Queene Mary subiected this Realme to the Popes decrees and fansies Phi. The Parliament of Queene Marie can not be misliked for admitting the faith of their fathers Theo. Much lesse can the Parliament of Queene Elizabeth be reproued for receiuing the faith of Christ. Phi. The faith of Christ is in question the faith of our fathers is not Theo. The faith of Christ we bee bound to keepe the faith of our fathers we be not Phi. Keeping the faith of our fathers we can not misse the faith of Christ. Theo. What priuilege had our fathers more than we that they could not erre Phi. Aske thy father saith Moses and he will shew thee thine elders and they will tell thee Theo. Shall not we be fathers to our posteritie as well as our ancestors were to vs Phil. Yeas Theo. Then must our children aske of vs as we must of those that were before vs. If therefore we may erre why might not our fathers as
them-selues venemous in saying ' Ye vipers brood and Steuen ful of the holy Ghost rated the Iewes on this wise Ye stifnecked and of vncircumcised harts and eares yee haue alwaies resisted the holy Ghost as your fathers did so doe you It is therefore a straunge course that you take to make the people disobey God to follow their fathers and a stranger that you freely permit all kinde of Infidelity and tyranny to your selues vnder the names of your fathers as if the men that were before you could neither erre nor shed innocent blood Phi. What they could we dispute not wee say they did not Theo. That must be proued before you may propose their actes for your imitation Their doings may bee doubted disliked as well as yours so the labor is all one to iustifie theirs and yours Times and persons do not preiudice the truth of God It is permanent in all ages eminent aboue all things If your fathers disdained and pursued the truth as you doe they were enimies to God as you are notwithstaÌ„ding their earthly dignities and other excellencies which may seem precious in your eies but are abominable in the sight of God when men are voide of truth Phi. We are not Theo. Leaue then your fathers and other idle fansies go directly to that question For if her Maiestie receiued established nothing but the truth of Christ in her Parliament in vaine do you barke against God and the Magistrate for lacke of competent Courts ecclesiasticall iudges and legal meanes to debate and decide matters of religion When God commaundeth all humane barres and Lawes do cease If they ioyne with God they may bee vsed if they impugne the trueth they must be despised And yet in our case the scepter vnited and adioyned it selfe to the worde of God and therefore if Princes may commaund for truth in their owne dominions as I haue largely proued they may why should not the Prince hauing the full consent of her Nobles and Commons restoare and settle the truth of God within her Realme Phi. Lay men may not pronounce of faith Theo. But lay men may choose what faith they will professe and Princes may dispose of their kingdoms though Priests and Bishops would say nay Phi. Religion they may not dispose without a Councell Theo. Not if God commaund Phi. Howe shall they know what God commaundeth vnlesse they haue a councell Theo. This is childish wrangling I aske if God command whether the Prince shall refuse to obey till the clergie confirme the same Phi. You may be sure a wise and sober Clergie wil not dissent from Gods precepts Theo. What they will doe is out of our matter but in case they doe to which shall the Prince hearken to God or those that beare themselues for Priestes Phi. In case they do so you neede not doubt but God must be regarded and not men Theo. And hath the Prince sufficient authoritie to put that in â—â—e which God commaundeth though the Priests continue their wilfulnes Phi. There is no councell nor consent of men good against God Theo. Holde you there Then when christian Princes are instructed and resolued by learned and faithfull teachers what God requireth at their hands what neede they care for the backward dispositioÌ„ of such false Prophets as are turned from the truth and preach lies Phi. In England when her Maiestie came to the Crowne it was not so The Bishops that dissented were graue vertuous and honorable Pastours standing in defence of the catholike and auncient faith of their fathers Theo. You say so we say no. Phi. Those be but wordes Theo. You say very right and therefore the more to blame you that in both your bookes do plaie on that string with your Rhetoricall and Thrasonicall fluence and neuer enter any point or prooâ—e that may profit your Reader You presume your selues to haue such apparent right and rule ouer the faith ouer the church ouer christian Princes Realmes that without your consent they shall neither conclude nor consult what religion they will professe Their actes shall be disorders their lawes iniuries their correction tyranny if you mislike them This dominion and iurisdiction ouer all kingdoms and countries if your holy father and you may haue for the speaking you were not wise if you would not claime it but before we beleeue you you must bring some better ground of your title than such magnifical and maiesticall florishes The Prince and the Parliament you say had no power to determine or deliberate of those matters And why so You did dissent May not the Prince commaund for truth within her Realme except your consentes be first required and had May not her highnesse serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ without your liking Claime you that interest and prerogatiue that without you nothing shal be done in matters of religioÌ„ by the lawes of God or by the liberties of this realm By the lawes of the Land you haue no such priuilege Parliamentes haue bin kept by the king and his Barons the clergie wholy excluded and yet their actes and statutes good And when the Bishops were present their voices froÌ„ the conquest to this day were neuer negatiue By Gody law you haue nothing to do with making lawes for kingdoms and commonwealthes You may teach you may not command Perswasion is your part compulsion is the Princes If Princes imbrace the truth you must obey them If they pursue truth you must abide them By what authority then claime you this dominion ouer Princes that their lawes for religion shal be voide vnlesse you consent Phi. They be no iudges of faith Theo. No more are you It is lawfull for any Christian to reiect your doctrine if he perceiue it to be false though you teach it in your churches and pronounce it in your councels to be neuer so true Phi. That proueth not euery priuat mans opinion to be true The. Nor yet to be false the greater number is not euer a sure warrant for truth And Iudges of faith though Princes be not yet are they maintainers establishers and vpholders of faith with publike power positiue lawes which is the pointe you now withstand Phi. That they may doe when a councell is precedent to guide them Theo. What councell had Asa the king of Iudah when hee commaunded his people to doe according to the law and the commaundement and made a couenant that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God of Israell should be â—laine Phi. He had Azariah the Prophet Theo. One man is no Councel and he did but encourage and commend the King and that long after he had established religion in his realme What Councel had Ezechiah to lead him when he restored the true worship of God throughout his land and was faine to send for the Priestes and Leuites and to put them in minde of their duties What councell had Iosiah
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
Prince tooke part with God then your clergy were but Antichristes Atturnies and all your Apologies Defences Replications and Demonstrations are but prophane brables and quarels such as Iulian or Porphyrie might and did obiect against Christ for that his faith came first into the worlde by the disordered rashnesse as they thought and tumultuous headinesse of the common people euen as the Iewes also disdained Christ himselfe and said of his followers Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees beleeue in him but this people that know not the law are cursed If your Bishops held the faith then had you wrong before God but no violence before men sith euerie Realme may dispose them-selues their Landes and liuinges as they see cause and make choice of their religion and teachers though they take not vpon them to decide and define which is truth and which errour as you falsly and scornefully report Phi. Thy make it treason to call their proceedinges heresie Theo. To call the Prince tyrant or heretike is no point of Religion but plaine rayling on powers which all christians are prohibited That law represseth the filthines of your tongues it forceth not the perswasions of your hearts it is no decision of heresie but a prohibition of cursed and intemperate speech which of duty you should forbeare and the Prince may iustly punish Phi. Shall it be death for a man to speake what he thinketh Theo. If the speach be slaunderous or opprobrious why should it not He that curseth his father or mother shal dy the death by the law of God and the selfe same reuerence is due to the magistrat thou shalt not raile vppon the iudge nor speake euill of the ruler of the people yea saith Salomon Curse not the king no not in thy thought and though Dauid himself in respect of his oth spared Shimei that railed on him yet he charged Salomon his sonne to giue him â—â— his deserts Thou shalt not count him innocent for thou art wise and knowest what thou oughtest to do vnto him therefore thou shalt cause his hoare head to goe downe to the graue with blood Therefore you must either leaue railing with Shimei or not thinke it much to suffer at Salomons handes as Shimei did Phi. The Princes person we will spare but that shal neuer driue vs to think well of your proceedinges Theo. If this Realme haue receiued or established any other faith than that which Christ commaunded the Apostles preached the catholike church imbraced then let all our proceedings bee violent disordered and reprochfull but if we haue not then looke to your selues For the Prince and the Parliament had Gods and mans authoritie to do as they did Phi. If doth not hurt vs our faith is catholik Theo. No one point of your faith which we reiect is catholike And the reformation which is now setled by the lawes of this Realme in matters of religion is warranted by the word of God and auncient iudgement of Christes church Phi. Nay our faith is grounded on the sacred Scriptures the generall consent of the catholike church Theo. Proue that and we require no more Phi. Will that content you Theo. Yea verily But you were best beginning a fresh matter to spit in your hand and take better hold than heretofore you haue done Phi. My handfast is so sure that you shall not shake it off Theo. Your heart serueth you what soeuer your handfast doth Proceeding with the next part wee shall see how sure you holde The end of the third part THE FOVRTH PART SHEWETH THE REFORMATION OF THIS Realme to be warranted by the word of God and the ancient faith of Christes Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to be nothing lesse than Catholikes Phi. WHAT one point of our religion is not catholike Theo. No one point of that which this Realme hath refused is truely catholike Your hauing and adoring of images in the church your publike seruice in a â—oung not vnderstood of the people your gazing on the Priest whiles he alone eateth drinketh at the Lordes table your barring the people from the Lordes cup your sacrificing the sonne of God to his father for the sinnes of the worlde your adoring the elementes of bread and wine with diuine honour in stead of Christ your seuen Sacramentes your Shrift your releasing soules out of Purgatorie by prayers and pardons your compelling Priestes to liue single your meritorious vowing and perfourming Pilgrimages your inuocation of Saincts departed your rules of perfection for Monkes and Friers your relying on the Pope as head of the church and Uicar generall vnto Christ these with infinite other superstitions in action and errors in doctrine wee deny to haue any foundation in the Scriptures or confirmation in the generall consent or vse of the catholike church Phi. We sticke not on your words which you vtter to your most aduantage but be not these things as we defend them and you reiect them Catholike The. Nothing lesse Phi. What count you catholike Theo. You were best define that it toucheth you neerest Phi I meane catholike as Vincentius doth that wrote more than 1100. yeares ago Theo. So do I. And in that sense no point of your religion which this Realme hath refused is catholike Phi. All. Theo. None Phi. These are but bragges Theo. Indeede they are so Nothing is more common in your mouthes than catholike and in your faith nothing lesse Phi. Who proueth that Theo. Your selues who after you haue made great sâ—urre for catholike catholike and all catholike when you come to issue you returne it with a non est inuentus Phi. Will you lie a litle Theo. I might vse that sometimes which is so often with you but in this I do not Phi. I say you do Theo. That will appeare if you take any of those points which I haue rehearsed Phi. Which you will Theo. Nay the choice shall be yours because the proofe must be yours Phi. Take them as they lie Hauing and worshipping of Images in the church is it not catholike Theo. It is not Phi. Eight hundred yeares agoe the generall councell of Nice the second decreed it lawfull and euer since it hath beene vsed Theo. Catholike should haue foure conditions by Vincentius rule this hath not one of them There can nothing be catholike vnlesse it be confirmed two wayes first by the authoritie of Gods law and next by the traditioÌ„ of the catholike Church not that the canon of the Scripture is not perfect sufficient enough for all pointes of faith but because many men drawe and stretch the Scriptures to their fansies therefore it is verie needefull that the line of the Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation should bee directed by the rule of the ecclâ—siasticall and catholike sense Now in the catholike Church her selfe we must take heede wee hold that which hath beene beleeued at all times in all places of all
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
his own Image Deut. 4. Esai 40. Ibidem Moses Esay referre the secoÌ„d precept to any Image made with hands and erected vnto God The later part of the 2. precept forbidâ—th to worship that which the first did forbid to make Esa. 42. 1. Cor. â— An Image made by man vnto God is but a dishonour vnto God Deut. 27. Esa. 40. Euery Image erected vnto God is an Idol Deut. 27. Sapient 14. Esa. 44. The Idolatrous Iewes pretended to worship the Image of God when they set vp the calfe * Exod. 32. vers â— * Iudic. 17. Iudic. 2. Baal was set vp for the Image of god * Ose. 2. * Esa. 40.46 Ambr. in Psal. 118. sermo 10. Origen contra Celsum lib. 7. The Heathen did not take their Images for Goddes Lactant. de fals religione lib. 2. cap. 20. Clemen recognitio ad Iac. lib. 5. Aug. in Psal. 113. concione 2. Marke well this shiâ—â— and tel me what the Papistes lacke of it Rom. 1 It is wickeder Idolatrie to worship an Image than to worship a creature A greater sin for those that know God to set vp an Image vnto him than for those that knew him not The figure of a man set vp vnto God is an Idole as well as the figure of a beast Deut. 4. Rom. 1. * Psal. 115. Esa. 44. An horrible picture of the Trinitie with three faces in the popish praier bookes * Horae Mariae Impressae per Iohan. le Prest impens Rob. Valenâ— 1555. Nicen. Synod 2. actione 2. Sapien. 14. * You doe defend them in your Rhemish Testament fol. 345. * Esa. 44. Deut. 27. The artificiall figure of Christs humane flesh may not be worshipped Lactant. de fals religio lib. 2. cap. 2. * Lactant. IbideÌ„ * Lactant. li. 2. cap. 19. Christ must be worshipped with al humilitie but not his Image because that is not Christ. Earthly similitudes are al the proofes that Papists haue for adoration of Images The Seates seales of princes make nothing for adoratâ—on of Images An Image can teach vs nothing of that we should beholde in Christ. Christ hath left better safer meanes to remember him than by an Image which papists leaue preferre their own deuises before his * 1. Cor. 10. * Colos. 3. * Ephes. 5. By what meanes and waies the holy Ghost occasioneth vs to remember the sonne of God He hath a dull heart that remeÌ„breth not Christ till he see an Image What commodities the Papists say they sucke out of Images All these fathers are wrested by papists from their right meaning 2. Thes. 2. The Papists greedily embrace other mens forgeries many of their own for adoration of Images Nice Concil 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Ambros. in Psal. 118 Concio 2. Great differeÌ„ce between the seruices Images of God men The Similitude of honoring the original by the Image answered No Creature nor Image capable of Christs honor because it is diuine * Lib. de falsa religio cap. 2. The Fathers make Christ the Image of God and not a peece of wood to bee the Imgae of Christ. If an Image must haue Christs honor ergo it must be God Mar. 4. Luke 4. Images may haue no diuine honor Christ will hauâ— no ciuill salutations nor friendly greetings In Psal. 118. sermo 10. Christ acknowledgeth the poore to bee his Image and yet it were wickednes to worshippe them Men are the liuing Images of christ made by the handes of GOD himselfe The Image which is made for Christ is no more like him than it is to any other of the saintes or wicked Making and worshiping of Images falâ—ly fathered on the Apostles Damasc. lib. 4. cap. 17. Nicepho lib. 2. cap. 7. A fable of Christ painting his own face Euseb. lib. 1. cap. 13. * Distinâ—t 15. § S. Roâ—ana Of such legeÌ„ds the Church of Rome hath plentie a Damasc. lib. 4. cap. 17. Citatur ab Adriano in epist. sua Nicenâ— Synod 2. act 2. * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names * What shame haue they left that make such places in the fathers names b This place is not found in all S. Basils Epistles yet there are extant of his 180 and many of them not fouer lines a peece so that all were preserued sauing this that was neuer wriâ—â—â—n If that were Adrians Epistle he might soone be deceiued but it seemeth to be rather a late forgerie in AdriaÌ„s name Infinite forgegeries haue beene coÌ„mitted in the fathers names as appeareth at this day in al their works The west Bishops that refuted the 2. Nicene councel al authorities one after an other neuer mentioned this place therefore it hath beene put in since their time * The Epistle hath neither trueth learning reason nor sense * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle * Seuen notorious lies repugnant to al the Church stories touched in one corner of this Epistle The scriptures alleaged in Adrians Epist. * Genes 1. * Genes 2. * Genes 4. * Genes 8. * Genes 28. If the scripturs be not horribly abused let Images on Gods name be adored a Esa. 19. b Psal. 95. c Psal. 25. d Psal. 26. e Psal. 44. f Psal. 4. Children would not thus play with Scriptures The brasen serpent made by Moses * Iohn 3. * Numb 21. * 1. King 18. And broken in peeces by by Ezechias when it was abused * Hebr. 9. The Cherubins not seen much lesse worshipped Tertul. de Idolatria Fathers abused by Adrian as well as scriptures Nicen. Synod 2. act 2. Eight fathers peruerted in this one Eistle The fathers draw similitudes from prophane things and Adrian wresteth them vnto diuine things Hierom made to speake opeÌ„ Impietie No such thing in al Hieroms workes The place of Basill is set amidst these deprauations of Scriptures and fathers The same place otherwise repeated in the same Councell and therefore the first or the last must needes be forged Nicen Synod act 4 ex ep Basil. ad Iulian. Imperator The Apostles did not prohibite the making of Images in speciâ—l wordes because God had done it sufficiently before * Rom. 7. * Rom. 2. * Rom. 1. * 1. Ioh. 5. August quaest super Iudic. li. 7. â—â—p 41. Gedeons Ephod was an Idol though it were not the Image of a false God
your selues and confute your aduersaries but onely the breath of your own mouthes Phi. Wee giue you an oth for our discharge will you not beleeue vs when wee sweare Theo. If wee do it is more of our good meaning than your wel deseruing you dispence so fast with the breach of othes Phi. You misreport vs we do not so Theo. That shal appeare in place conuenient I will not now disgresse from the matter An oth you say we haue to purge al suspition Let vs hear it Phi. The principall of the viage doth protest that he neither ioyned with rebell nor traitor nor any other against the Queene or Realme or traiterously sought or practised to irritate any Prince or potentate to hostility against the same Further inuocating vpoÌ„ his soul that he neither knew saw nor heard during his aboad in the court of Rome of any such writings as are mentioned in the proclamation of Iuly containing certaine articles of confederation of the Pope king of Spaine other Princes for the inuasion of the Realme Theo. We heare you sweare but meane you plainly Phi. Why doubt you that Theo. You teach others wheÌ„ they be called before such as you count heretiks sophisticè iurare sophisticè respoÌ„dere sophistically to swear sophistically to answere that is to mocke the Magistrate with a captious cunning oth or answere And therefore vnlesse you giue vs a preciser strickter oth than this we trust you not You did not traiterously seeke or practise to irritate any Prince or Potentate to hostilitie against the Queene or Realme What needed this addition you sought it not traiterously Your meaning may bee you sought it but lawfully Phi. What fraud you suspect where we meane simply Theo. Then for the better explication of our selues do you thinke it treason for an English man to ioyne with the Pope or any other appointed by him to inuade the Land for the restoring of Religion and execution of the sentence which Pius the fift pronouÌ„ced against her Maiestie Phi. That sentence is extrauagant Theo. Not so For if you count it no treason as we can proue the most part of you do not to obey the Pope deposing the Queene then in your own conceits may you safely sweare you did not these thinges trayterouslie though touching the factes it were certaine you did them Phi. What a compasse you fet to intrap vs Theo. What euasions you get to delude vs but how doth this cleare the rest of your side Phi. Wee bee most assured that no English Catholike woulde or coulde bee the author thereof Theo. It is much to bee sure what euerie man of your faction would or could doe you must bee gods and not men if you can doe that Phi. Wee knowe they woulde not Theo. Leaue this follie you can not search the secretes of other mens heartes nor accompt for their deedes in a matter so impossible the more vehement the more impudent Phi. It verily may bee thought and so is it certaine that some of the principall ministers of the forenamed Princes haue aâ—nswered being demaunded thereof that the Protestantes hauing exercised skill and audacitie in such practises and counterpractises of which Fraunce Flaunders Scotland and other countries haue had so lamentable experience did contriue them to alter her Maiesties accustomed benignitie and mercie towards the Catholickes Theo. It is great pitie that Papistes bee no practisers Aske England Scotland Flaunders Fraunce Spaine Italie Scicile Germanie what practises they haue found I say not in your temporall men but in the Priestes Prelates and Pillours of your Church Righter Macheuels than the Popes them-selues Christendome hath not bred mary this indeede you were alwayes better with poysons and Treasons than with papers and pamflets and yet you spared neither Scriptures Councels nor Fathers but corrupted and enterlaced them to serue your turnes As for the procurers and setters of this late confederacie to assaulte the Realme if you knowe not who they were Charles Paget and others with you can tell or if they would dissemble Throckmorton hath tolde There shall you see whether this were a meere deuise and sleight of ours or a lewde intente and practise of yours These bee the chiefe pointes of your seconde Chapter the rest is lippe-labour and noe waye concerneth your cause Phi. Yes wee prooue it lawfull for men in our case to flie to the Bishoppe of Rome for reliefe either of bodie or soule Theo. Wee bee sure you will saie it with boldnesse enough but will you prooue it Phi. Wee will prooue it Theo. Howe Phi. Whither should wee rather flie than to the head or as Sainct Hierom speaketh to the most secure part of our Catholike communion to the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines to the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of our soules in earth to the Vicar generall of Christ out of the compasse of whose fold and familie no banishment can bring vs to him that by office and vnction had receiued the grace of loue pitie and compassion to him that counteth no Christian nor domesticall of faith a stranger to him whose Citie and Seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers and the paterne of all Bishoply hospitalitie and benignitie Theo. Whither nowe Maisters are you well aduised Phi. Why not Theo. You presume that to be most true which is most in question betwixt vs and as if your vnshamefast flatteries were sounde and substantiall verities you conclude without prouing the precedents or respecting the consequent For first what witnesse bring you that the Pope is as you say the head the rocke of refuge in doutful daies doctrines the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of your souls in earth the Vicar generall of Christ or that his seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers and the whole Church his folde and familie What auncient Father or Councell euer liked or suffered these proude and false titles Why proue you not that which you speake Or why speake you that which you can not proue In so weightie matters do you thinke it enough to saie the worde and by and by wee must hush Phi. Wee haue else-where brought you so manie demonstrations for these thinges that nowe wee take them to bee cleare Theo. Omit these vauntes we aske for proofes and till you bring them by your owne rule we neede frame you no farther answere Phi. Make you merrie with that aduantage but yet Sainct Hierom is not so shifted Theo. His name you set in the forefront to lead on the rable of your vnsauorie speeches but the wordes of Sainct Hierom doe little releeue you For let it be that Athanasius and after him Peter Bishops of Alexandria declining the persecution of the Arian heresie fled to Rome as to the safest port of their communion because Rome was then free from the tumults of Arians so long as Constans liued and readie to receiue such as suffered affliction for
molten Images And they brake downe in his sight the Altars of Baalim and hee caused to cut downe the images that were on them he brake also the groues and the karued molten images and stampt them to powder and strewed it vpō the graues of them that had sacrificed on them Also hee burnt the bones of the Priestes vpon their Altars and purged Iudah and Ierusalem And when hee had destroyed the Altars and cut downe all the idols throughout the lande of Israell he returned to Ierusalem Then the king sent and gathered all the Elders of Iudah and Ierusalem And the king went vp to the house of the Lord and all the men of Iudah and inhabitantes of Ierusalem and the Priestes and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest and hee read in their eares all the wordes of the booke of the couenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood by his Piller and made a couenant before the Lord to walke after the Lord and to keepe his commandementes and his statutes with all his heart with all his soule that hee would accomplish the wordes of the couenant written in that booke And hee caused al that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant So Iosias tooke awaie all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israell and compelled all that were founde in Israell to serue the Lord their God al his dayes they turned not backe from the Lord God of their fathers Moreouer Iosiah kept a Passouer vnto the Lord in Ierusalem and hee appointed the Priestes to their charges and said to the Leuites Serue now the Lord your God and his people Israell prepare your selues by the houses of your fathers according to your courses as Dauid the king of Israell hath written and according to the writing of Salomon his sonne And stand in the sanctuarie according to the diuision of the families of your brethren Kill the Passouer and sanctifie your selues and prepare your brethren that they may doe according to the word of the Lord by the hande of Moses Thus the seruice was prepared and the Priestes stood in their places also the Leuites in their orders according to the kinges commaundement So all the seruice of the Lord was prepared the same day to keepe the Passouer to offer burnt offeringes vpon the Altar of the Lord according to the commaundement of king Iosiah Nehemias though he were no king but a captaine sent frō king Artaxerxes yet he discerned resisted the Prophetes that would haue put him in feare was the first that sealed the couenant between God the people with an oth to walke in the law of God and to obserue all the commaundementes of the Lord. And he displaced Tobiah an Ammonite whom Eliashib the high Priest had receiued and lodged within the court of the house of God and cast out all the vessels of the house of Tobiah and commaunded them to clense the chambers for the vessels of the house of God And reproued the rulers for that the house of God was forsaken the Sabbaoth day broken assembling the Leuites singers setting them their places charging the Leuites to clense themselues and to sanctifie the Sabbaoth daie And when he saw Iewes that maried strange wiues he rebuked them and cursed them and smote certain of them tooke an oth of them by God that they should not mary with strangers And one of the sonnes of Ioiadah the sonne of Eliashib the high Priest maried the daughter of Sanballat the Horonite but Nehemiah chased him awaie and clensed the Priestes and Leuites from all strangers and appointed them their courses euerie one in his office There needeth no great skill to set this togither To remoue idols all abominations out of the land to enter a couenāt with God to walke in his waies to proclaime fastes an d make publike praiers to sanctifie the Temple and celebrate the Passouer to seeke and serue God according to his law bee matters ecclesiasticall not temporall and yet in the same cases the godly kinges of Iudah commaunded and compelled all that were found in Iudah Priest and Prophet man and woman to stand to that order which they tooke for the better accomplishing of those their interprises Acknowledge that right and power in Christian Princes at this day to medle with matters of Religion which the Scriptures report and commend in kinges of religious and famous memorie we presse you no farther If you sticke to graunt so much others will not stick to distrust the soundnesse of your doctrine notwithstanding the smoothnesse of your tongues and loftynesse of your spirites wherewith you thinke to compasse and quaile kingdomes Phi. The kinges of Iudah did that which they did at the motion of the Prophetes and direction of the Priestes Theo. You shun that which you shal not auoide Wee reason not who moued and aduised but who decreed and commaunded these thinges to be done Priestes or Princes The Scriptures in plaine termes saie that Princes DECREED APPOINTED COMMANDED them to be done Contradict the wordes if you dare Take from Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias the king of Niniueth and others the Princely power which they shewed due praise which they merited in medling with these matters impugne the words whereby God expresseth approueth their doings see whether the consciēces of all good men will not detest abhor your wilfull impietie Phi. The Scripture saith in deede they commaunded appointed decreed these thinges but no doubt they were directed by Prophetes and other spirituall Pastours what they should do Theo. What if they were Doth that hinder their authoritie Princes in ciuill affaires are guided and directed by learned and wise Counsellers doe they therefore not commaund in temporall matters neither Or finde you no difference betweene counselling and commaunding Phi. Againe these Princes were before the comming of Christ when as yet there was no supreme Pastour ouer the whole Church Theo. There was an high Priest ouer the twelue Tribes with surer and better authoritie than your holy father can shewe for him-selfe All Israell by Gods owne mouth were referred to the iudgement of the Priestes and Leuites and not to decline from the thing which they speake The man saith God that will do presumptuouslie not harkning vnto the Priest that standeth before the Lord to minister that man shall die This was their commission yet this notwithstanding the kings of Iudah commaunded both Prist and people for matters of religion And so did the Christian Emperours after the comming of Christ for eight hundred yeares that wee shewe commaund both Bishoppes and others yea the Bishoppe of Rome no lesse than others in causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall The particulars I noted before The Lawes were publike
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny