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A15978 [A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594. 1575 (1575) STC 274; ESTC S112318 85,201 271

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in authoritie per quem reges regnant by whom kinges doo reigne who had Peter if he loued him to féede his shéepe who hath also constitute vnder him féeders vpon the earth some spirituall some temporall O I say that they would diligently looke vpon these wordes A good shepherde geueth his life for the sheepe seriouslye ponder in their minde what a charge is hid in this short sentēce how many thinges princeps pastorum the prince of shepherdes as Peter calleth him doth require of them whom he hath made herdsmen vnder him whose duetie is to be good pastours and faythfull féeders like to their master O that they wold call to their mind that they must at length depart hēce come where it shal be said to euery one of thē Redde rationem villicationis tuae Geue accompt of thy bayliwike Come forth and shew how thou hast fed my flock that I cōmitted to thy handes Thou Bishop howe haste thou visited thy diocesse what Parsons what Vicares haste thou admitted Thou Archedeacon howe often haste thou visited séene euery curate to do his duty how hast thou redressed al enormities and slaunders within thy iurisdictiō Thou parson thou vicare thou curate how hast thou fed thy flock with good ensamples of charitie vertuous liuing with kéeping of hospitality to thy power by preching holsome doctrine in reuerently ministring my Sacramentes Thou king howe haste thou ruled thy Realme What lawes lawes haste thou made for the setting forth of my glorye for the extirpation of heresyes for maintenaunce of equitie for punishment of wronge for prouision that thinges may be solde at a competent price that couetous men make no dearth to their condemnation when I geue plentie Thou Lorde howe haste thou gouerned vnder thy prince Thou man of woorship howe haste thou indeuoured to haue quietnes kepte and the princes lawes to be obeyed Thou Iustice how haste thou ministred right indifferently to all persons Thou Maior or head officer in anye Citie or Towne howe haste thou kept thy selfe cléere from periurie howe haste thou séene good order obserued and al ydlenes dissolute maners to be banished Finally thou whatsoeuer officer or Magistrate thou be howe haste thou regarded the common wealth and preferred it afore thy priuate lucre or commoditie O that these thinges were considered for as sure as God liueth these accomptes will he call vpon straytly None shall escape Cui multum datur as S. Gregorie sayeth multum ab eo quaeretur He that hath muche geuen him shall make a great accompt thereof and muche shall be of him required And at that daye percase he shall recken him selfe moste fortunate and happie that had leaste in this worlde and least to doo And he peraduenture moste infortunate that hath moste to doo in this worlde vnlesse he order it well vnlesse he order it righteously iustly and ordinately Nowe good Reader thou haste hearde that Christe sayeth Bonus pastor animam suam dat pro ouibus suis And to put thée out of doubt who is this good shepherde he sayeth Ego sum pastor bonus cognosco oues meas cognoscunt me meae I am the good shepherde which will geue my lyfe for my shéepe by my death to purchase thē lyfe that as I will rise and dye no more so shall they after their bodily death arise at the last day neuer to dye any more but to liue alwayes with my father and me I knowe my shéepe not all onely that they be mine but I so knowe them for mine that I wil be their succour in their tribulations I will strengthen them in their persecutions I will receaue them into my ioye and glorie I knowe them and they knowe me This is then required of the shéepe that they knowe their shepherde Thrée properties must be in euery man or woman that shall haue this worthy name to be called a shéepe of Christe The firste propertie is that our Sauiour sayeth that his shéepe doo know him This knowledge haue Christes shéepe of him that by his godhead he is their father by his manhood he is their brother and by his benefites he is their louing lorde and master They knowe it is he and none other that hath made their peace with God his father Ipse enim est pax nostra for he is our peace Ad Ephesios secundo he hath gotten vs forgeuenes of our sinnes he hath deliuered vs out of the bondage of the deuill he hath purchased heauen for vs he is to vs Turris fortitudinis the Tower of our strength The seconde propertie of Christes shéepe is to heare their shepherdes voyce and to geue no eare to the voyce of any straunger You will aske me peraduenture how you shoulde heare him which although he be verily and bodily héere with vs in the Sacrament of the Aultare yet in his humane forme he is ascended vp into heauen and sitteth on the right hande of his father Wherevnto I aunswere that we must heare his voyce sounding by the mouth of his Churche which is the verye true spouse of Iesus Christe Quam sanctificauit mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo vitae whom he hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the worde of life vt exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam to make it a glorious Churche to himselfe without spot or wrinkle Ad Ephesios 5. If we heare the church we heare Christe for as the holy Bishop and Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the fortie Chapter of his thirde booke Vbi ecclesia ibi spiritus vbi spiritus dei illic ecclesia omnis gratia spiritus autem veritas where the Churche is there is the spirite of God and where the spirite of God is there is the Churche and all grace and the spirite is truth Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and thrée Chapiter of his fourth booke we be bounde to be obedient to the Prelates of the Churche his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis to them that haue their successiō from the Apostles Reliquos verò sayth he qui absistunt a principali successi quocunque loco colliguntur suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet As for all other that go away from the principall succession we ought to suspect them as heretikes These are Ireneus wordes in the place nowe alleaged And Christ sayth him selfe Qui vos audit me audit He that heareth you heareth me Wherfore if we wil heare Christ as his father hath commaunded vs Ipsum audite Heare him Math. 17. then must we heare the Churche The Churche is our moste holy Mother whom we ought to haue in great reuerence and to commit our selues wholly vnto her to heare her and like obedient children to do what she biddeth vs What the Churche holdeth in matters of religion that must we holde what the Churche prescribeth it is our duetie to folowe what the Churche forbiddeth
their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by succession of pastors haue bene vsed in the Churche we do persuade prouoke those that speake against Traditions He writes as much more in the thirde Chapter of the saide booke Forasmuch sayth he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of all the Churches and to tell them one by one we doo ouerthrowe those that for vayne glorie doo seeke to gather disciples together teaching them contrary to that that doth apperteyn vnto the Traditions of the Apostles the which we doo shewe to them by the saide Traditions and by the faith that hath bene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and auncient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martyrs and Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule These are his wordes in his thirde booke aduersus haereses the fyfth Chapter And at the beginning of the saide Chapter he saith thus All those that will vnderstand the truth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and we cannot coumpt the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeyned Bishops in the Churche their Successoures till our dayes which haue neither knowen nor taughte anye thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doo preache vnto vs c. Not without cause wee may nowe a dayes say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sectes of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome from S. Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffise to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false and very hurtfull because that it was vnknowen or at the least not receaued or approued by the Churche being vnder the gouernaunce of any of those Popes Then with greater reason ought prescriptiō to take place against a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeres or at the least if any bodie sought to publishe it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretike ¶ The .6 Chapter S. Augustine in his Epistle 365. about the like matter doeth set forth all the Popes by order which haue bene from S. Peters time vntil Anastasius which was pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those popes which he did recite nor no part of the Churche did receaue it I pray you maye not we saye the like by the Caluinistes and other heretikes The saide S. Augustine in the Epistle that he doth call Epistola fundamenti Cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholike Romane Church And amonge other he doeth alleage the common consent of all nations and the continuall succession of Bishops And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the bishops as most certain to answer to that that we sayd before of S. Paul I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering doubtfull in our doctrin but that we should be firm stable the which stablenes is obteined by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Churche and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops The Churche saieth S. Augustine frō the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our dayes ¶ The .7 Chapter YOu doo studie as muche as you canne to reiect our succession and not without cause knowing that this onely doeth suffise to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the moste apparant doth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of Pastours and yet we doo not holde them as Catholikes But if the Reader doo well note that that we haue alreadie sayde he shall finde the aunswere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession and continuaunce of doctrine called vnitie of fayth by the Apostles the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuaunce of the Pastors to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholike religion There is none that doo study reade of those matters but that doo know the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holye ghoste the which errour they had abiured at the last Councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuers other light thinges to speake moderatelye which are not approued by their auncient fathers S. Iohn Chrisostome S. Cirill S. Basil and Athanasius nor yet by our aduersaries at this present time The which errours I haue no neede to set foorth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that prickes vs at hande because of ill neighborhood Some doo alleage vnto vs the negligence of our pastors and their ill liues for the which cause they say that the mētioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For althogh that the carelesse liues of some Bisshops and ecclesiasticall persons haue bene so great and so hurtfull vnto the blud of our Sauior Christ I mean to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that the Churche hath not lost the succession continuaunce of one doctrine as touching the administration of the Sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bisshops If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieftenant doing all which of those two woulde you take to be Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receueth the profite the other takes all the payne If they be both content what losse doo you feele he that hath anye interest let him valewe the damage And although that the negligence of the Bishop be not excusable before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleere yet this ought to suffise that though his faultes be through negligence or through euil liuing yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrin the which wee haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue bene before vs agreing in vnitie of faith as I haue alredie said For neither the naughtines of Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuers other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christe were not able to withstande the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to sai that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersatiō of diuers wicked Popes that haue folowed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene able to moue Christe to breake his promise that is to saye that the fayth of his Churche shoulde neuer fayle Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saye of
Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministerie of your congregation If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodye he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you say to suche a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or els a great Iester Euen so doo you deserue that one should laugh at youre ministerie For you will ioyne youre Churche if it may be so called vnto the Churche of the Apostles without setting forth any members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of al the Bishops Pastors and doctors that haue bene from the Apostles time til our dayes they being the members that folowe the head of the Churche This maye well be called a newe Religion or to say the truth it is a meere presumption to flye without winges or to clymbe without a ladder And I say to you againe that this is not the waye to folowe the Counsell of the great Shepherde that I mentioned before who doth say to vs that if we will not misse the way of the Catholikes we ought to folow the flocke of those shepe that haue gone before vs that is to saye that we should recken by succession the Pastors that haue succeeded in continuance of one kind of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholike Churche doth and hath euer done ¶ The .12 Chapter AS touching the rest you haue accustomed in your ministerie to vse the imposition or laying on of hands and you saye that it is an auncient and honest Ceremonie In this you say the truth For as we reade of great antiquitie this Cerimonie hath beene vsed aswell in the olde lawe as in the lawe of grace And vnto that did redounde the imposition of handes laid vpon the Wether that was brought to the immolation of the Sacrifice of Moyses lawe to declare that those that are ordeined vnto the seruice of God and vnto the ministerie of the Church ought to retaine the like Ceremonie so the Israelites did laye their handes vppon the Leuites and Moyses likewise did laye his handes vpon Iosua whē he was made a captain of the Israelites who did represent the Church of Christ The apostles haue vsed the like as we find wher we read that S. Peter and S. Iohn did lay their handes vpon the Christiā people of Samaria S. Paule vpon the Ephesians and likewise the Apostles vpon the seuen Deacons vpon S. Paule and Barnabas S. Paule doeth admonishe Timothe not to despise the grace that he had receued by the impositiō of handes that he should set forth the gifte of God that he had receiued with the imposition of the handes of S. Paul vpō him He doth likewise cōmaunde him not to vse this impositiō of hāds without discretiō to the end that he do not cōmunicat with the sin of another Caluin according to these authorities in his institutiō booke Ar. 8. ca. 50. of faith doth cōmaund the like to be vsed in his Churche It doth appere saith he that the Apostles haue vsed no other Ceremonie in the vocation to the ministery but this imposition of handes Now I thinke that thei tooke this custom of the Iewes who did present vnto god by the imposition of hands that that they wold blesse cōsecrate After this sort Iacob Gen. 48. whē he would blesse Ephraim and Manasses he laide his handes vpon their heades Our Sauiour did the like vppon the litle children when he did praye Math. 19. And as I thinke it was all to one ende ordeined in the lawe and therefore the Apostles by the imposition of handes did signifye that they did offer vnto God him that they did receaue into the ministerie althoughe they did vse it likewise with those vnto whom they did distribute the visible giftes of the holy Ghost How so euer it be they haue vsed this solemnitie as many times as they did ordeyne any body to the ministerie of the Churche as we see by example aswell touching the Pastours and doctours as the Deacons Now although there be no special commaundement as touching the imposition of handes yet notwithstanding seeing that we reade that the Apostles did vse it continuallye that which they did vse so diligently ought to be vnto vs as a precept And surely it is a profitable thing to set forth to the people the dignitie of the Ministerie by suche a Ceremonie and to make him know that is thus ordeyned minister that he apperteyneth no more to himselfe but that he is dedicated to the Seruice of God and of his Churche c. Thus seing that Caluin doth confesse the imposition of handes to be so necessary for the ministerie of the Churche and that it is approued aswell by the lawe of nature as by the lawe of Moyses or of the Gospell Answere vs then who was he that laide his handes vpon Caluin to safe conduct the charge of his conscience You will aunswere me Zuinglius or Oecolampadius or the others of his time And if by chaunce one would be so curious as to pursue this demaund mounting a litle higher I meane to know of whom these abouenamed haue receued their blessing and imposition of handes I thinke you will not name the Apostles if you will not haue euery man to laughe at your follye for there is none so simple but doeth knowe that they died aboue 1500. yeres agone And seing that your patriarch hath made vs so goodly an oration as touching this imposition of handes affirming it to be necessarye both by the lawe of Nature the lawe of Moyses and the lawe of Grace howe doeth it come to passe that Zuinglius hath not vsed it to confirme his ministerie ¶ The .13 Chapter If that the good doctour S. Ciprian had bene in these our dayes might he not well haue saide against youre Schollers that which he did write against Nouatus there needed no other but in steede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius et nomine mu tato de vobis fabula narrabitur Seing that the saide S. Ciprian doth holde affirme that Nouatus oughte to be accompted as no Bishop because he succeded no bodie but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop without anye imposition of handes Then to what purpose I praye you are ye of the opinion that Caluin and Zuinglius are such faithful ministers considering that they are as far from prouing that confirmation of their ministerie as euer was Nouatus You wil answer me that you haue no nede of the impositiō of hāds of the Papists superstitious Idolaters Infidels But this maketh your cause neuer the better for if you are so scrupulous by nature that it goeth against your cōsciences to come to kneele to our Bisshops you shuld I say in times
the best of the worlde yea whollye without spot or sinne as some of you doo affyrme yet were not they sufficient to moue vs to chaunge our religion nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs for although it be so that our Sauiour Christe was as iust and as innocent as any can be hath beene or euer shal be yet neyther his holy life nor the Scriptures that he did alleage to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophetes nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist all these thinges together wer not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes and to receaue the Gospell without the testimonie of the great miracles that he did in their presence He doeth confesse this plainely where he sayth If I had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer any had done they should haue no sin This sentence is moste notable and woorthy to be grauen in the heartes of all Catholikes to assure their consciences which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinions For although it were so that you my masters were the honestest men of the worlde sent from God to teache and preache a true doctrine yet shoulde we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission euen as the Iewes had bene for not receuing of our Sauiour Christe if he had not done so manye miracles For we knowe no cause why you shoulde be more priuileged then Christe And seing that you haue shewed nothing to verifye it this waye and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles and that your liues are at the least as yll as ours what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receaue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discordes and diuisions that one maye easilye gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell the worde of the Lorde and as S. Augustine sayde vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio I say no more at this time but that I beseeche God to drawe you as nere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire youre mindes to turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken FINIS ¶ An offer made by a Catholike to a learned Protestant wherein shall appere the difference betwixte the open knowen Churche of the Catholikes from the hidde and vnknowen congregation of the Protestants FIrste seeing it cannot be denyed that our Sauiour Christe before his departure and Ascension did commit the charge and gouernment of his Churche the testimonie of his word the truth of his Gospell the ministration of his Sacramentes to his Apostles and Disciples that not only for them selues but to their successors Bishops and priests to none other saying onely vnto them Euntes docete omnes gentes Goe ye and teache all people and nations of the worlde baptising them in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghoste teaching them to obserue and keepe all thinges which I haue commaunded you Further Thapostle S Paule being at Miletum in executing of his charge and gouernment gaue this admonition to the bishops and priestes there assembled before him saying Attendite vobis et vniuerso gregi Take hede vnto your selues and vnto the whole flocke of Christe in the which the holy ghoste hath ordeyned you bishops Regere ecclesiam dei to gouerne the church of God. And in the thirtenth Chapiter of his Epistle to the Hebrews he doth commaunde al other sortes of men without exception of Emperours kinges Queenes princes to obey their bisshops and priestes saying Obedite Praepositis vestris et subiacete eis ipsi enim peruigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri Obey your Prelates and doo what they appoynt you for they doo watche as men that shall render accoumptes for your soules Seeing that by the testimonies before alleaged it can not be denyed but that the charge and gouernment of Christe his churche the preaching of his doctrine the administration of his Sacraments was by him committed to his Apostles disciples and to all Bishops and priestes as Successors of them to plant christian fayth and religion in his catholike churche vniuersally throughout all nations coastes and quarters of the worlde Seeing this is by the playnnes of the sayde Testimonyes of suche an vndoubted truth that it cannot be denyed Nowe let the learned Protestant affyrming princes to be the supreme heades of the Church eyther shewe by some suche other like playne testimonyes of the scriptures that our Sauiour Christe did committe the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Churche to Emperours kinges Queenes and princes to plant christian fayth religion in the same or that anye one of Christe his Apostles or disciples did conuert any people lande or countrey from their Idolatry Ethnike kinde of liuing to Christian fayth religion by preaching the doctrine of the Protestantes as of onely fayth to iustifye the contempt of good workes and that they be all vncleane in the sight of God the denyall of free will of the reall presence of Christes bodye in the holy Eucharist of the sacrifice of the moste blessed Masse the abolishing of Christe his Sacramentes of all grace and goodnes by them cōferred vnto vs then I shal yeelde and recant and not before Seconde Christe his Catholike Churche being on this wise planted by Thapostles disciples of Christe by Bishops and priests the successors of them had at all times a special care and regarde not onelye of preaching Gods worde but also of the preseruation of the same worde and Gospel by writing of the sacred Bible and holy Scriptures and did discerne iudge them from all other writinges prophane or authentique of all sortes What Churche hath had from time to time the custody of the sacred scriptures and moste safely hath preserued them for the necessary foode of Gods people and from the corruption of the aduersaries aswel Iewes and Gentiles as schismatikes and heretikes of all sortes but onely the common knowen Catholike Church of Christ When therefore the learned Protestantes shal be able to bring proufe to the contrarye that their priuate conuenticles and congregations were the firste bringers forth of this sacred Bible and the worde of God written the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles heretikes and schismatikes Then I will as I saide before reuolte and recant Thirde shew me good reason why ye protestants doo beleeue our catholike churche enfourming and telling you this to be the word of God written the true Bible and sacred Scriptures and doo refuse to credite her in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture she being