calls the vniuersall doctrine of the Church authoritatiuely taught I cannot define nor himselfe determine when all these haue bene and yet are holden in his Church and haue their patrons who will all of them maintaine that his owne opinion is the doctrine of the Church This therefore is it I said that had their doctrine touching originall sin bin the truth anciently taught in the Apostles Church it could not haue bene thus often changed and remoued from opinion to opinion till the opinions be multiplied to as many as there be Doctors 8 And this example shewes how friuolous the common answer is that their differences are not in points of faith but in by-matters not determined wherein it is lawfull to hold any part For this difference is in a point defined though not by any Popish councell yet by the word of God or whether it be defined or no it is in a matter wherein they hold against vs bearing men in hand that they can shew catalogues and whole companies in all ages that held therein with them FOR WE DO NOT SO MVCH CARE TO SHEW THEIR DIVISIONS TO BE IN THE SVBSTANCE OF THEIR FAITH albeit they haue infinite such AS TO MAKE CLEARE DEMONSTRATION THAT THEY AGREE IN NOTHING WHICH THEY HOLD AGAINST THE PROTESTANTS The which kind of disagreement is sufficient to shew the things we haue refused in their Church to be matters broacht and brought in which neuer had the generall approbation of the Church That wherewith he concludes we can shew diuers points of the Protestants faith directly contrary to the ancient Church is a stale vntruth already sufficiently confuted in euery passage He can referre vs to his Coccius and Bellarmine but himselfe I thinke can shew little of his owne knowledge being one of them whom not knowledge but rumour and popularitie haue carried to the Popes side CHAP. LIX Obiections against the outward succession of the Pope 1. Touching Peters being at Rome 2. His pastorall office what it was 3. Whether there be any diuine authoritie for the Popes succession 4. Not certaine what Popes haue succeeded one another 5. Vacancies diuers in the Sea of Rome 6. The storie of the woman Pope of what credit 7. 8. The Pope hath bene an hereticke and erred è Cathedra 10. The Pope succeeds by Simonie and violence Such succession is a nullitie by his owne law 11. The Pharisees in Moses chaire how A. D. defends the succession of an ASSE 12. Many Popes at once 13. Vrbanus his crueltie toward the Cardinals 13. What the Protestants say touching the succession of the Church of Rome A.D. The fifth obiection Lastly Pag. 289. my aduersaries may obiect against the Romane succession which in this Catalogue I mention FIRST that it is not certaine that euer S. Peter was at Rome SECONDLY that we haue no diuine but onely humane proofe that the Bishop of Rome White pag. 416 Pag. 418. pag 419. pag. 421. rather then he of Antioch is S. Peters successor THIRDLY admitting that S. Peter had one to succeed him in Rome it is not certaine who this was which succeeded him and who afterward succeeded one another FOVRTHLY the Sea hath bene voide a good while together FIFTLY a woman was once Pope SIXTLY diuers Popes haue bene hereticks SEVENTHLY some haue entred into the Popedome by simonie and violence c. EIGHTLY there haue bene 30 schismes and therefore it is vncertaine who was the right Pope To the FIRST I answer that so many ancient * See the Fathers cited for this point in the Rhem. Test annot Rom. 16 Fathers do witnes and so many monuments yet remaining do testifie that S. Peter was at Rome and died there that it is great ignorance and impudencie to denie it 1 THe obiections here mentioned the first excepted I proposed Digress 53. and they clearely shew that the outward succession of Bishops in the Romane Church is neither so entire nor perfect as is pretended Our aduersaries neuer haue done with vrging the lineall succession of their Popes frō S. Peter to this day making it a signe of the Church and concluding from it that they alone are the Bishops and Pastors of the world which haue preserued the truth from all corruption and innouation Which outward succession in some degree the Protestants denie not onely they affirme two things against it that the same is to be found in other Churches as well as in the Church of Rome and that it hath bene so tainted and interrupted with defects of all sorts that it can proue nothing against vs but rather shewes manifestly that the ancient faith and gouernment commended by Christ to his Church hath bene changed as will appeare by viewing the seuerall things that are obiected 2 To the first he answers that so many ancient Fathers and monuments yet remaining testifie S. Peter to haue bene at Rome and died there that it is ignorance and impudencie to denie it He affirmes three things First that we denie Peter to haue bene at Rome This is vntrue Let the writings of our a D. Fulk answ to the Rhem. Rom. 16. nu 4. D. Rainol conser c. 6. diuis 3. D. Whitak controu 4. ◠3. c. ◠Iun. contr 3. l. 2. c. 5. Diuines be viewed and they denie it not but the vttermost they say is that the reasons and testimonies brought out of antiquity whereupon his being there is grounded are vncertaine and may sensibly be dissolued If b Whose demonstrations that Peter was neuer at Rome are printed by Illyricus with his boke called Refut inuectiu Bruni printed at Basil an 1566. by Oporin Velenus or some speciall men with him haue brought the matter in question it was free for them so to do and almost necessarie for the bolting out of the truth all things in antiquitie touching the same being perplexed with such difficulties that it were able to make any man misdoubt it Yet the Protestants are not curious and the Church of Rome gaines not a straw by it Secondly that the ancient Fathers testifie he was at Rome This I grant but yet all the Papists liuing cannot reconcile their testimonies nor maintaine either that he came thither in such a time or stayed there so long as is reported The which consideration hath mooued as learned Papists themselues as euer were any to doubt of his being there at all if my aduersarie thinke them so impudent that do it Marsilius Patauinus * Marsil defens Pacis part 2. c. 16. printed at Basil in fol. saies that by the Scripture it cannot be conuinced either that he was Bishop of Rome or euer was at Rome at all And then considering the Ecclesiasticall histories that affirme it he so doth it that it plainely appeares he beleeued them not Whence it followes that his being there was a common opinion but not certaine forsomuch as it was grounded on no surer testimonie then these circumstances of Time were The first that saies he sate
whereby vnanswerably it followes that there was no visible head of the Church infallibly knowne all that time but according to our Aduersaries owne principles the Church wanted meanes to instruct and confirme her people in the faith yea the liuing rule of faith ceased and was ouerthrowne in these schismes The Iesuite replies that in all these schismes either the true Pope was knowne or if he were not yet there was meanes to cleare the doubt by electing a new The first of these is false that in all the schismes the true Pope was knowne For in some of them there were so many learned men and Princes of the earth following each part deuided one against another that it was impossible there should be any certainety And my Aduersarie could not haue instanced with me in a worse then in Vrbanus whose reputation was so small by reason of a Whereof reade Theodor à Niem de schism l. 1. c. 2. the manner of his entrance and gouernment that he was generally nicknamed Turbanus and so odious to his Cardinals that in reuenge b Ibi. cap. 51. Pandulf Collenut hist Neapolit l. 5. p. 233. some he tormented vpon the racke in base and miserable fashion and afterward tied vp in sackes and so drowned them and others he baked in an ouen and carried them when he had done vpon mules before him when he trauelled with their Cardinal hats vpon them Now it is a rule among our c Petr. Cresper sum Cathol fid verb. Disciplinae pag. 180. Aduersaries themselues that a doubtfull Pope is to be accounted for no Pope The succession therefore failed all the time of these schismes And albeit as the Reply speaketh there was meanes by a Councell to elect a new Pope yet what successe these meanes had he may perceiue by the stories of the Councels of Pisa Constance and Basil whereof this last d Aen. Sylu. comment de Gest Basil Concil lib. 2. deposed Eugenius and elected the Duke of Sauoy calling him Faelix the fift and yet our aduersaries still hold the succession in Eugenius yea the Replier hath put him in his Catalogue and left Faelix out which by this his rule he should not haue done And besides though a Councell may depose the schismatickes and elect a new Pope yet who shall he that is thus elected succeed or how can a Councell or any other meanes that shall be vsed peece together the interruption past that it may truly be said the succession was neuer broken Martin was elected by the Councell of Constance but let the Iesuite and Gregory of Valence his master of whom he hath borrowed all that he sayes answer whom he succeeded whether Vrban and his successors or Clement and his which side soeuer he takes he cannot rid himselfe For Clement and they that followed him in his time are thrust out of the catalogue and Vrbane with those that followed him put in yet the said Vrban in his time was thought no right Pope and Eugenius that immediatly followed this Martin was deposed by the Councell of Basil 13 The Iesuites hope therefore that he hath answered the obiections will faile him things may wittily and cunningly be pretended but let euery man that will stablish his conscience in the truth enquire whether the reason of true succession can hold where such things as these fall out and whether it be possible or can stand with Gods prouidence that a succession planted for such purposes as our aduersaries pretend this of Rome to be shall be furnished and peeced out with boyes women hereticks ignorant and vnlettered dotards simoniacall intruders and so many times diuers of them at once Two things therefore touching this matter of succession are the truth First that the outward and personall succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome is not so entire as is pretended but hath bene defiled and poisoned with so many disorders that it is as lame a succession as any is wheresoeuer in the world Their catalogues assigned and drawne to exhibite to the vulgar people looke smooth on the outside and nothing but well is discerned in them but examine the particulars and enquire into the histories of their succession and there was neuer any thing so patched and peeced together as they Secondly the succession of doctrine is the true succession and is not tied to that which is in place and persons and therefore let not the Iesuites blaze out their catalogues of names vntill they can prooue the corruptions which they haue added to religion wherein onely we forsake the Church of Rome were holden and beleeued by the persons named For what foolery is it to make a catalogue of Iesus Christ Saint Peter all the Apostles and Euangelists the virgin Marie and the whole Church of the first six hundred yeares as if these had professed what the Pope and his rabble now teach did these adore images vse the Communion in one kind beleeue Purgatorie did these teach it lawfull for the Pope to excommunicate depose murder the Kings of the earth Are not all these things against their expresse doctrine Let our aduersaries retire backe to modestie and truth and giue ouer their courses There are two parts of their religion One wherein they and we agree as that there is one God three persons one redeemer Iesus Christ that the Scripture Canonicall is Gods word that the dead shall rise and all the rest wherein we consent Another part of their religion is it which we and all the reformed Churches haue cast off as Images Transubstantiation Purgatorie Traditions and a hundred such like points The Catalogue assigned sufficiently shewes the former part both for them and vs against all Iewes and Gentiles that denie it The latter part they cannot shew to haue bene holden by the persons named vntill many ages after Christ as they came in by degrees in all which time the truth maintained by the Protestants against them was holden still and the Papacie was but a faction in the Church opposing the sounder part thereof And so the visible Church of Rome it selfe is it wherein the Protestants faith in all ages hath bene professed for the substance thereof Vincat veritas I. Wh.
of such a man is to be followed in interpretatioÌ„ of Scripture or otherwise as the rule of faith or as a sufficient infallible means to leade men and to direct them in the knowledge of matters which are to be beleeued by faith Now this being the sense of my conclusion let vs heare how my aduersaries will answer my proofes 5 First he grants that a priuate man assisted by the holy Ghost may interpret Scripture truly and infallibly against a company as big as the Romane Church supposing the said company were not so assisted but it is not to be thought that the holy Ghost forsakes the Catholick Church to assist any who interpret contrary to it Which I thinke too and therfore neuer denied his coÌ„clusion nor gaine-said the arguments whereby he confirmed it in this generall sense But when these priuate men were expounded to be the reformed Churches and their Pastors and this holy Catholicke vniuersall Christian Church vnderstood to be the Papacy and the Romish faction then I affirmed that priuate men might haue the Spirit of God and his truth and the Church want it But that I be not mistaken and that the Reader may vnderstand wherein I and my aduersaries differ Note that the name of the Church may be taken 3. waies First for the whole company of such as professe Christ and his Gospell collectiuely in all ages and places which is most properly and really the Catholicke vniuersall Church So expressely o Princip doctr pag. 99. 101. edit Ascens an 1532. Waldensis This is the Catholicke Apostolicke Church of Christ meant in the Creed the mother of beleeuers whose faith cannot faile not any speciall Church Not the African as Donatus said not the particular Romane Church but the vniuersall Church not assembled in a generall Councell which we know hath sometime erred but the Catholicke Church of Christ dispersed through the whole world since the Baptisme of Christ by the Apostles and their successors to these times is it which containes the true faith and holds the certain truth in the midst of all errors Secondly for any part of this Catholicke Church in this or that time or contrey as the particular Churches of Greece Rome Corinth or any assembly of Bishops congregated in a Councell either generall or particular Thirdly for the Papacy or Romish Church peculiarly containing that faction which imbraces the Romish religion and liues vnder the Popes subiection In which sense my aduersary and all Papists alway vse the name of the Church p Est coetus hominum eiusdem Christianae fidei professione corundem Sacramentorum communione colligatus sub reginunt legitimorum Pastorum ac precipuè vnius Christi in terris Vicarij Romani Pontificis excluduntur schismatici qui habent fidem in sacramenta sed non subsunt legitimo Pastori Bell. de eccl milit c. 2. Est visibilis hominum câ—etus sub Christo apite â—â—us in terris Vicario â—astore ac summo Pontifice agens Simanch Cath. instit tâ—t 24. n. 1. defining it by this Romish faith with subiection to the Pope and excluding from it all that refuse the Papacy The which distinction being thus laied I propound my answer and that we say touching the point in the fourth proposition First No man or company of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture contrary to that which the vniuersall Church in the first sence hath alway beleeued and expounded can be assured they haue the assistance of Gods Spirit but the contrary they may assure themselues they are led by the spirit of error The reason is for no truth can be reuealed to any but that which is in this Church for if it be not in it so that the Church neuer knew or beleeued it then it cannot be the truth For q 1. Tim. 3.15 the Church is the pillar and ground of truth and so a priuate man holding it must needs hold an error Secondly A priuate man and priuate companies of men may be and many times are so assisted by the holy Ghost that they may beleeue and expound the Scripture truly against a particular Church or Councell of Bishops either generall or particular The reason is for God hath left his truth with his Church therein to remaine for euer but not infallibly euery parcell of his truth with euery part or assembly of the Church But his prouidence and promises to his Church are sufficiently vpholden if he so support the true faith that it alway remaine in some of the Church Therefore a particular Church or councell of Bishops may at some time and in some points erre and then it cannot be denied but others may see the truth against them this proposition our aduersaries dare not denie nor do not Thirdly a priuate man and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture onely against the Papacie may be infallibly assured they are assisted by the holy Ghost The reason is because this Papacie is no part of Gods truth but the late inuentions of men added vnto it Fourthly Priuate men and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding contrarie to the Papacie resist not the true Church of Christ nor any part of it The reason is for the Papacie being nothing else but a disease or excrement breeding in the Church must not be expounded to be the Church it selfe as a wenne or leprosie growing on the bodie is not the bodie it selfe and he that cuts off the wen or purges away the leprosie cannot be said to resist or wrong the bodie 6 These foure propositions thus laid downe it is manifest my aduersarie doth but cauill in this place For if his conclusion intended no more but that priuate men must not be thought to know the truth and the true Catholick Church to be in error no man would speake against him But the sence of his conclusion is against the three last of my propositions That no man can be thought inspired of God or to haue the truth when he expounds Scripture as Luther and his did contrary to the church of Rome in which sence onely I dispute against him and in no other Not affirming that priuate men may see the truth and the Catholicke vniuersall Church not see it but onely that priuate men beleeuing contrary to that which my aduersarie meanes by the Catholicke vniuersall Church may haue the truth on their side and be infallibly sure therof without holding any thing contrary to the vnamine interpretation of the precedent or liuing Pastors of the sound part of the Catholicke Church CHAP. XXXIII 1. How a priuate man is assured he vnderstands and beleeues aright touching the last and highest resolution of faith 2. Luthers reiecting the Fathers 3. Occhams opinion that no man is tied to the Pope or his Councels 4. The Beraeans examined the doctrine that they were taught 5. The faith of the beleeuer rests vpon diuine infused light 6. M. Luther sought reformation with all humilitie 7. Scripture is the
virtually it is the Church of Rome and the Pope the Church of Rome representatiuely is the Colledge of Cardinals but virtually the Pope who is the head of the Church Pelaeottus f De consist part 1. qu. 3. pag. 19. The Pope alone may do not onely that which is granted to all and singular Prelates in the Church but also more then they all g Respons moral p. 44. n 4. Comitol The power of Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction is not in the vniuersality of the Church as in the true subiect but in the Prelates thereof and in the Bishops of Rome as in the fountaine whence it flowes vnto all other Ministers of the new Testament Albertine h Coroll pag. 251. saies The Bishop of Rome is the rule of faith into which Rule all the articles of our faith are lastly resolued as into the formall reason whereby they are propounded to vs. Gretser i Defens Bell. to 1. p. 1450. B. saies when we affirme the Church to be the iudge of all controuersies of faith by the Church we vnderstand the Bishop of Rome who for the time being gouernes the ship of the militant Church and by liuely voice doth clearely and expressely expound his iudgement to them that seeke to him Zumel k Disput var. tom 3. p. 49 D. saies I beleeue that the chiefe Priest and Bishop of the Church the Pope who is the master of our faith cannot but attaine the truth of faith nor can be deceaued or erre if as chiefe Bishop and master of the faith he set downe his determination so that vnlesse a man be afraid of the truth there is no cause why he should feare the Popes determination It is idle therefore and sordid that the Repliar saies by the Church he meant the Pope but secondarily as it is ridiculous to say the Church is the rule indefinitely and abstracting from all time or per ampliationem which are termes deuised onely to besot the ignorant that they should not smell his heresie for if his Church be the rule he must needes meane such a Church as he thinkes in all ages and times successiuely to haue bene inuested with that authority and that Church is the Pope alone that miserable iudge of whom their owne men say h Do. Bann to 3. p. 106. b. It is no Catholicke faith but an opinion very probable that he is S. Peters successor and the most iudicious confesse i Alph. l. 1. c. 4. Hadrian pag. 26. ad 2. he may erre * August Anconit sum qu. 5. art 1 Iacobat de conc l. 4. art 1. Occh Dialog 1. part l. 6. 2. part c. 69. inde Cusan de concord cath l. 2. c. 17. Panorm de elect C. signif not 7. Zabarell tract de schismat Gerson de auferibil Pap. consid 10. inde and be deposed for heresie A.D. § 1. Pag. 205. That the doctrine of the Apostles was for their life time the rule and meanes First I say that my conclusion being vnderstood as in this Chapter I principally meant cannot be denied to be true for it cannot be denied but that the doctrine as deliuered by the Apostles themselues being for the time they liued the Church in such sense as here I take the name Church was such a rule and meanes as here we seeke for For first it is knowne to be infallible Secondly it was easie to be vnderstood c. Thirdly it was vniuersall c. Since therefore these 3. conditions requisite in the rule of faith are found in the doctrine and teaching of the Apostles it cannot be denied but that the diuine doctrine as deliuered by them in their life time either by word or writing was the rule and meanes which God ordained to instruct men in faith Taking therfore my conclusion in the chiefely intended sense I suppose that my aduersaries will neither deny it to be true nor the reason by which I proue it to be good 2 This discourse needed not for no Protestant denies the doctrine of the Apostles to be the rule either for their time or the time succeeding to the world ende I graunt therefore the Repliar his assertion and inferre thereupon that his Popes determinations and the doctrine of his Romish Church is not the rule of faith because they agree not with that which he here confesses was the rule in the Apostles time vnlesse he will maintaine when he replies againe that the rule is not one and the same at all times as k Cusan ep 2.7 his Cardinall writes that the Scripture is fitted to the time and variably vnderstood so that at one time it is expounded according to the fashion of the Church and when that fashion is changed the sense of the Scripture is also changed Againe Magalian a Iesuite I thinke yet liuing l Magal op Hierarch in tit p. 61. n. 6. saies Though it were granted that the wordes of Paule Tit. 1.6 containe a precept to marrie yet seeing Paule gaue it by his owne authority it were no diuine but an Ecclesiasticall precept which the Church may change yea abrogate and much more dispense with Marke what trickes heretickes haue to change the Apostles doctrine when it fits not their Church then the Apostles gaue it by their owne authority which I note that the Reader may perceaue there is no sincerity in the Repliars words For albeit he grants here the Apostles doctrine be the rule yet he meanes it to be the rule but for their owne time because the Pope may vnder colourable pretences expound it that is in plaine English change it when he will as his Cardinall and Iesuite here affirme A D. § 2. That the doctrine of the succeeding Pastours of the Church Pag. 207. is the rule and meanes The chiefe controuersie is about my conclusion as in a secondary sense it may be meant of the succeeding Pastors of the Church In which sense I affirme that like as the diuine doctrine not as contained in onely Scripture or as gathered thence by natural wit or priuate spirit but as deliuered by the Apostles or the Apostles as deliuering this doctrine was the rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all men liuing in their daies in all matters of faith So the same doctrine not as contained in onely Scripture nor as gathered thence by naturall wit or priuate spirit but as deliuered by Pastors of the succeeding Church or those Pastors as deliuering this doctrine is the rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all men liuing in succeding ages in all points of faith 3 This assertion I will grant as I did the former namely that the doctrine of the Pastors of the true Church such as succeed the Apostles is the rule and meanes of faith but the reader shall note two trickes that the Iesuite puts vpon him in the Proposition hereof First that affirming the doctrine of the succeeding Pastors of the Church to be the rule he saies not
satisfaction he may repairâ— to that I writ And wheras the Iesuite notes that the true Church being a light and visible it cannot be but Gods prouidence and humane diligence would prouide some record of histories to find it this is true and shall be yeelded him and let our reformed Churches of the Protetestants neuer be counted part of the Catholicke Church if all Ecclesiasticall records in the world beginning with the new Testament and so descending by the writings of the ancient Fathers till you come to the very times of Luther do not shew the articles of their faith to haue bene professed in the Church of Rome as I haue often said its selfe and that which we haue cast off and wherein the Iesuites and wee differ this day to be no part of the ancient faith but late innouations brought in by faction that it was lawfull for vs to put them away and reduce things to the first antiquity And this I say not to ground our faith on humane reports but to testifie that I grant such prouidence of God for the confirming our faith though if such Histories were wanting as they are not it should not moue vs so long as we haue the Scriptures to iustifie our doctrine wherewith whatsoeuer consents is the truth whether Histories which are but a humane testimony and vnable to authorize or support faith mention the succession thereof or not But when my aduersary will needs haue it that one chiefe vse of History is to shew the continuance of the Church that seeing thereby this continuance we might know it to be the Church of God and not finding it we might know thereby that it is not the Church I will not striue with him but acknowledge the prouidence of God and industry of man who hath left the records of History to confirme our faith and freely grant our religion to be false if the continuall descent thereof from Christ cannot by such record be shewed Wherein we are so resolute that next the euidence of the sacred Scripture this is our greatest motiue against the Trentisme and Iesuitisme of the now Church of Rome that by all histories and writings of record we find it to be an innouation against the ancient religion and a rabble of heresies from time to time added and brought in to that which in the beginning was professed in the Church of God and if any man be so inamoured of Rome as to imagine that part of the religion thereof which we haue forsaken as the Supremacy Transubstantiation Traditions Latine seruice and the rest to be come in a continuall lineall descent from Christ downe through all ages to these times he will finde himselfe deceiued when he makes the triall or if he be so vnlearned that he cannot make this triall or so besotted with the conceite of Papistry that he will not or so oppressed with the craft of such as this Repliar is that he cares not yet it satisfies me and giues my soule contentment against the day of my death that reading all manner of ancient records Councels Fathers Church Histories Greeke and Latine though I haue not read all I find Papistry to be none of the ancient religion vniformely imbraced in the Church but an heresie brought in by the packing and ambitious policy of some growing as a Leprosie successiuely one peece after another to it And reading the later Diuines and Schoolemen that writ since the 11 age I finde as in the former the whole substance of the Protestants saith deliuered but touching the rest wherein the Church of Rome and we dissent and which we haue put away as the Masse Transubstantiation Purgatory Images Freewill Merits Supremacy c I finde no vnitie or certainety among them but all things inuolued with contradictions and vncertainety that it is easie to discerne the said points to be no parcell of the ancient Catholicke Apostolicke faith It is an ancient complaint of a Vbertin de Casal tract de 7. stat eccl c. 3. p. 65. The same thing touching the Schoolmen and Diuines of the Church of Rome is reported and complained of by Sauanarola a Friar liuing sometime in Florence Multi hodiernis temporibus qui volunt videri legis Doctores ac defensores conuersi sunt in vaniloqutum obsenratum est insipiens cor eorum Dicentes enim se esse sapientes stulti facti sunt quia relicta sacrarum literarum simplicitate ad Gentilitatem se penitus conuerterunt adulterantes verbum Dei impleuerunt chartas superbissimis obscuritatibus vanissimisque verborum ornatibus ac stulta apud Deum sapientia pompaque rhethoricorum verborum Deo odiosa nec non infinitis quaestionibus inexplicabilibus ac inutilibus quae mergunt homines in interitum audientesque subuertunt in vestimentis ouium volentes videri fidei defensores factè sunt populo Dei lupi rapaces Dicunt enim se philosophiae operam dare vt melius sacras scripturas quas nunquam legere volunt intelligant meliusque veritatem Dei fidemque defendant Sed reuera quaerunt quae sua sunt non quae Jesu Christi semper addiscentes vt dicit Apostolus nunquam ad veritatis scientiam pâ—ruenientes Qui dixerunt ait Propheta linguam nostram magnificabimus labia nostra à nobis sunt Quis noster dominus est Et tantum hic morbus increuit vt Ecclesiae Praelatos Presbyteros clericos Religiosos ac Seculares totumque populum Christianum tabefecerit Adeo autem inueteratus est vt non solùm glorientur Christiani tumenti animo de Gentilium literisextollant semtipsos sed quod peius est Paganorum scientias qui in vanitate sensus sui ambulantes nihil putabant verum nisi esset inflaium verborum compositione ornatorum non verentur praepouere scientiae Dei à quo est omnium scientia quilinguas mutorum aperit facitque disertas Et multi hodiè in tantam vâ—sâ—â—iam blasphemiamque prorumpunt vt sacras Scripturas rugato naso subsannantes ita despiciant irrideant vt èarum sectatores putent pro nihilo habendos Adeo enim Princeps huius seculi excaecauit eos vt tanquam mente capti nihil seiant se omnium rerum sapientiam apprehendisse arbitrentur Taceo de muliis qui cultum Dei fidemque abnegarunt Hicron Sauanarol de ord scient l. 3. subsiti pag. 13 edit Venet. apud Aurel Pincium an 1534. Vbertin a Carthusian touching the Friars and Schoolemen that by mingling Paganish errors with the principles of faith they had blowne away the truth of the Gospell and he sayes The falling star that had the key giuen him to open the bottomles pit was certaine eminent learned and later religious men falling into earthly desires and the curious sciences of Pagans and into diuers sectes They had great witts to open and extoll the doctrine of Aristotle and Auerroes and studying in a manner nothing else they deuised deepe and gulfelicke opinions
implicitè all points of faith that we hold This will appeare by these ensuing considerations First it is certaine that the Apostles taught the whole corpse of Christian doctrine partly by word partly by writing which as a sacred depositum was commended by S. Paul to S. Timothy and other succeeding Bishops and Pastors of the Church to be maintained alwaies in the Church against all profane innouation of heresies in these words O Timothy keepe the depositum auoiding the profane nouelties of voices oppositions of falsly called knowledge which diuers promising haue erred about the faith The which words * Aduers haer c. 17. Vincentius Lyrinensis expoundeth thus Who saith he at this day hath the place of Timothy but either the whole Church or especially the whole bodie of Prelats who ought themselues to haue the whole knowledge of diuine religion and also to instruct others And a litle after What is meant by this Depositum it is saith he that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee that which thou hast receiued not that which thou hast deuised a thing not of wit but of learning not of priuate vsurpation but of publicke tradition a thing brought to thee not a thing brought forth of thee wherein thou must not be an author but a keeper not an institutor but a secretor not a leader but a follower Keepe the Depositum preserue the talent of the Catholicke faith pure and sincere that which is committed to thee let that remain with thee and that deliuer vnto the people To the same purpose S. Irenaeus saith * l. 3. c. 14. We must not seeke the truth among others which is easie to receiue from the Church when the Apostles haue most fully laid vp all the truth in it as in a rich treasure house Also the same Irenaeus saith * l. 4. c. 43. We must heare and obey those Priests who haue succession from the Apostles who with succession of their Episcopall function haue receiued the Charisma of truth Now supposing that this sacred depositum of the whole corpse of the reuealed truth is preserued in one or other succession of Pastors of one or other companie of Christians called the Church either it must be granted that it was preserued in that succession of Pastors which my catalogue sheweth or else I must require my aduersaries to set forth another catalogue of Pastors vnto whom this sacred depositum was committed and from whom we may receiue it as need shall require For to say that the diuine truth committed to the custody of the Pastors whom God hath appointed to be alwaies in the Church of purpose to preserue men from wauering in faith Eph. 4 v. 13.14 and from being caried about with euery wind of false doctrine did at any time wholy or in part by contrary error faile in them vniuersally in such sort that there should not in all ages be sound one or other company of Pastors and Priests whom we could know still to keep the Depositum inuiolate and entire and whom consequently according to Irenaeus his saying we ought to obey as being men l. 4. ◠4. who with succession of their Episcopall function receiued also the Charisma of truth if I say this were so that Gods truth all or in part had explicitè and implicitè perished from the mouth of all knowne Priests and Pastors Gods ordinance it selfe who for the generall good of the Church appointed these Pastors had bin deficient or had failed of the intended effect Eph. 4. v. 13.14 For how should men be preserued from wauering in faith or from being caried about with euery wind of false doctrine by Pastors appointed to be for that purpose vnto the worlds end if in some ages no such Pastors were or were not to be knowne or being knowne to be the Pastors yet did vniuersally faile to preserue the entire formerly receiued truth by beleeuing and teaching and so making the people beleeue contrary errors If this were so the holy Ghost had failed to teach the Church all truth and consequently Christs promise had not bin performed which said that the Spirit of truth shall teach all truth Ioh. 16. v. 13. Some Pastors therefore alwaies are in the Church who without spot or wrinkle of any error in faith shall preserue the entire truth and by the assistance of Christ and his holy Spirit shall be able as need shall require to vnfold and deliuer to the people the same truth thereby to preserue them from falling into error and from wauering in faith 1 THat the Apostles taught the whole bodie of Christian doctrine and commended the same to the succeeding Pastors of the Church to be alway maintained without innouation and that as Vincentius and Irenaeus speake the faithfull people of the Church were to be taught the truth by these Pastors shall be granted for what the Apostles reuealed and deliuered from Iesus Christ the same they intended should be continued for euer in the Church But this proues not that the ancient Fathers of the Primitiue Church held all things that the Church of Rome now holds vnlesse my aduersarie can shew that euery thing holden in the Church of Rome is part of the Bodie of that Christian doctrine which the Apostles commended to their successors For ouer besides the truth reuealed by the Apostles the church of Rome successiuely by degrees in these last 800 years especially hath brought in diuers pernicious and damnable errors and corruptions touching Traditions Transubstantiation Images Iustification the Masse the Popes primacie the worship of Saints innumerable other points wherin we haue forsaken it the which corruptions not belonging to the bodie of Christian doctrine which the Apostles taught but being a disease that bred in the body of the Church must not be said to haue bin the faith of the Fathers who receiued nothing from the Apostles but that doctrine which is contained in the canon of the Bible besides which doctrine if either the Fathers or Pastors of the Church succeeding taught any thing it must be reiected as no part of the Depositū mentioned Thus my answer is plain that the Apostles deliuered to their successors to be preserued against all innouation the whole Christian doctrine but the seuerall articles of the now Romish faith which we haue cast off are no part of that Christiā doctrine Secondly my aduersarie replies that it was the mind of the Apostles and the ordinance of God not onely that the whole bodie of the truth should be preserued in some successiō or other but also that it should be preserued so inuiolate and entire that no contrary error should be taught with it which being supposed he sayes it must be granted that it hath bin so preserued in that succession of Pastors which his Catalogue sheweth because the Protestāts are able to shew no other Pastors His whole discourse affirmes two things the first that the bodie of Christian
Fathers held is holden at this day by Pastors of our Church or at least may stay him from thinking that the same faith is not holden If all that view his foresaid considerations proue indifferent either to the cause or of indifferent iudgement that which is holden this day by the Pastors of the Repliars Church will not be deemed the same doctrine which the ancient Fathers held I say vpon his foresaid considerations it cannoy be deemed so he may haue new considerations or something else in store to stay men and if I meet it it shall be answered but this foresaid is too absurd for first I deny not the Catalogue of Pastors for the first 600 yeares whereof the question in this place is to be of such as preserued the truth inuiolate but affirme those very persons to haue bin the true Pastors of the true Church would my selfe giue them vp for a catalogue of such assigne no other but I require the Repliar to make it manifest against the obiection that they held as their iudgment and professed as their faith those speciall points of Popery that we renounce And let him not reply that they held and professed them at least implicitè but say ingenuously whether they be to be found in their books for example Transubstantiation the sacrifice of the Masse the worship of images the Popes primacy and Monarchy ouer the world The which point not being shewed in his foresaid considerations but directly auoided by a cōceit of their beleeuing at least implicitè how may an indifferent man see or by staying neuer so long hope to see the Papacy in the Fathers 4 Againe he sayes if his aduersaries will deny the Catalogue of Pastors which he hath set downe to be of such as haue preserued the truth he must require them to assigne another of their owne And Secondly to note the first Pastor in his Catalogue that failed in preseruing the truth And Thirdly in assigning our Catalogue not to assigne such as are ordinarily answered by Catholicke authors but some plaine instances which his demand if it cānot be answered as he is sure it cannot then the Repliar concludes euery discreet man may if he will driue out his owne wit to make roome for Ad 1 his To the first all the Papists aliue cannot by good discourse driue vs to assigne a Catalogue it being sufficient to say that no doctrine wants lineall succession that accords with the Scripture neuerthelesse for the first 600 yeares we assigne the Church wherein the Fathers liued and for the rest to this day we will assigne no other Catalogue thē the Church of Rome it selfe wherin many of those whom the Repliar hath couched in his Catalogue professed the foundation of the truth that wee Ad 2 maintaine To the second I answered in THE WAY so fully Ad 3 that the Iesuite had no list to reply To the third those particular men whom we name and this blatant beast calls a rabble of ragged heretickes were Gods deare children and better professors of the truth then the reuerend ranke of his Popes and Friars who were and yet are nothing else but the great Antichrist that was prophesied should fit in the Church of God among whom these men and many ordinary Pastors and people of the Church of Rome liuing and holding the foundation of faith and in the agony of their conscience renouncing the damnable heresies of the Papacy it cannot be denied but the Church of Rome it selfe affoords vs a Catalogue sufficient For the Repliar is too simple and deceaues himselfe if he thinke we place the Church onely in Berengarius Wickliffe Husse Ierome the Waldenses and the rest of that sort But we name them as some particular eminent members in the Church of Rome for so we terme all these westerne parts by reason of the Patriarchie lesse corrupted then were many others and vnto them we adde all others in the said Church that held the articles of faith either in solid or in part though it were Occham Gerson Armachanus Cesenas Ardeus Potho Sauanarola or any such for albeit they held many errors yet the truth among their errors was preserued and I affirme that it is sufficient for the succession of the Church and being of the faith if the parts thereof and all the seuerall particulars belonging to saluation can be shewed to haue bene held in any Church albeit no one man in the same or in the world can be shewed to haue holden them all entirely himselfe That * Prot. Apolog. tract 2. c. 2. sect 3.4.5.6 7. our aduersaries may see they do but trifle away the time when they labour so contentiously to shew that Wicklife or Husse or the Albingenses differed in some things from vs no member of the Church in the world being at all times free from euery spot and wrinkle of error CHAP. XLV 1. The Fathers are not against the Protestants but with them 2. Touching the Centuries reiecting of the Fathers The cause of some errors in the Fathers 3. Gregories Faith conuerting England 4. The Papists haue bene formall innouators 5. How they excuse the matter A. D. In which point if he desire to be more fully satisfied Pag. 271. let him reade Iodocus Coccius his Booke intituled Catholicus thesaurus controuersiarum in which he shall see particularly set downe point by point the ancient Fathers with vnanime consent testifying for vs against Protestants The which to be so in many points the Magdeburgians being themselues famous Protestants do likewise testifie who hauing taken great paines in seeking ancient histories and monuments of the Fathers writings to see if they could finde any testimony of authority to countenance their cause are forced at last to acknowledge the ancient Fathers to testifie in many things against them and for vs all which their testimonies they thinke to wipe away with saying that these were the errors or blemishes of these Fathers which is as good a iest as if a guilty person being desirous to cleare himselfe at the barre by the witnesse of honest men and hauing diligently sought and finding that all honest men will beare witnesse against him yet to make a shew wil needs bring in a number of honest substantial men bidding them to giue their verdit of purpose that when they all haue deliuered the truth See the Protestants Apology where these points are hādled largely Tract 1 sect 1. deinceps he may forsooth say they all lie or are deceaued This also to be so is shewed in the Protestants Apologie where particularly is proued out of diuerse learned Protestant writers first that the faith we professe is the same that Saint Gregory professed and by Saint Austine the Monke taught vs English men at our first conuersion Secondly that the same faith was vniuersally professed for sundry ages before and namely that it agreed in substance with the first faith to which the Brittans were conuerted in the Apostles
people liuing in mariage yet haue not their secret cohabitation much reported but whether they companied together or no the examples shew they were married they dwelt together in one house they had children and brought them vp together which liberty the Church of Rome now denies The Councell of Constantinople p Est auâ—em etiam vniuersalis Bals p. 194. which was vniuersall q See Simanch institut tit 4. n. 38. and the canons thereof legitimate r Can 13. allowes both the marriage and cohabitation and saies it is the ancient Apostolicall constitution Å¿ Socr. l 1. c. 11. gr Zozom l. 1. c. 23. gr the like did Paphnutius in the first Councell of Neece t The WAY 2. edit p. 344. I alledged a place in Zonaras vpoÌ„ the canons which here I will put into English The Apostles in the canon say that if a Priest vnder the pretence of religion put his wife he shall be excluded excommunicate till he receaues her againe but if he perseuere and will not receaue her againe he shall be degraded because it seems to be done in reproch of marriage as if the mixture of man and wife were vncleannesse Whereas the Scripture saies marriage is honourable and the bed vndefiled The cannon also mentions Bishops hauing wiues because AT THAT TIME THE LAVVFVLL COHABITATION OF BISHOPS WITH THEIR WIVES WAS NOT FORBIDDEN Our aduersaries answer that this custome was but in the Greeke Church and not in the West But what was not the Greeke Church especially in those times the Church of God and haue not they altered the ancient faith that haue altered that which was vniuersall in the most famous Churches of the world and hath not the Pope in the West hereby shewed himselfe to be an Antichristian hereticke that condemnes the vniuersall doctrine of so famous a Church But the West Church also allowed the same liberty till the tyranny of the Pope as u The WAY digr 51. n. 10. I shewed exstinguist it * Scot. 4. d. 47. Ios Angl. Flo. ril in 4 p. 386. Antidid Colon. p. 128. Coster Enchir. p. 517. Greg. Val tom 4. d. 9. q 5. punct 5. All Papists I thinke will grant that maried Ministers were ordained in the Apostles * Mariana pro edit vulg p. 47. times and after yea such as had bene twise maried So to maior y Comment in Tit. c. 1. §. vnius vxotis saies it must be confessed and graunted that of old in the Primitiue Church reason of the small number of Ministers maried Bishops and Priests were vsed by indulgence That indulgence is Sotoes conceit and not the truth as I haue shewed for it is true that the faction against Priests mariage began betimes as appeares by the story of Paphnutius and the Nicene Councell but it was resisted by the godly BB. Dionysius for example the famous Bishop of Corinth a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb p. 41. b. called it a heauy burtheÌ„ not to be imposed on the brethren And therefore b Non horruit illa Tempestate Deus thalamos cunabula taedas Mant Fast 1. and the example of Simplicius before alledged still they maried euen in the West vnder the Romane Patriarchate Marius a Papist c De schism Concil part 3. c. vlt. saies he knowes right well that in the time of Pope Formosus which was 800. yeares after Christ it was permitted and lawfull for Priests to marrie wiues and when the restraint came in he cannot tell though he haue most diligently inquired d Cromer de Orig. gest Polon l. 7. p. 517 In Poland they had their wiues till almost 1200. yeares after Christ e Henr. Hunting p 378. prohibuit ante non prohibitas In England as long f Auentin l. 5. see the WAY pag 377. In Germany France and Italy as long Which I presume the Christian world would not so stiffely haue mainetained if it had bene against the sounder practise of the g See 26. q. 2. sors Clictou de contin c. 4. Church But when they saw it was not forbidden by any law of God but onely opposed first by faction and then by tyrannie they stood as long as they could till they were oppressed by tyrannie Aureolus h 4. d. 37. p 185. saies the common way of holding is that Orders haue the vow of continency annexed by the institution of the Church This is somewhat to shew that God by no diuine law made it so but if he had added that the Church which made this institution had bene a faction first of superstitious persons and then of Antichristian heretickes conducted by the Pope he had said the truth and opened the whole pedigree of it but if he had added further that which i Istud onus quod adhuc quamplurima monstra fecit ab audaci sertur pietaâ—e repertum Mant. Fast l. 1. see Joh Mar. vbi sup not a few of his fellowes supply for him that by leading from Gods ordinance it hath filled their Clergy with all maner of vncleannesse and villanny he had said no more then all the world knowes to be true and will subscribe to CHAP. LIII Wherein is handled the doctrine of the Church of Rome touching the worship of images and the distinctions whereby the same is maintained are examined and our aduersaries finally conuicted of giuing Gods honour to their images The Ancient Church was against image worship A. D. Fiftly touching images whereas M. White * White pag. 344 of the first edit 345. in the second edition Where for shame he addeth a limitation saying some of them hauing in the first edition absolutely said without limitation The Church of Rome worshippeth c saith Pag. 281. that the Church of Rome worshippeth and coÌ„mandeth men to worship them with the very same diuine honour which is due to God himselfe first no man holdeth that the images of Saints are to beworshipped with the very same diuine honour which is due to God because the Saints themselues being more honoured of vs then their images are not honoured with diuine honour Secondly although some say that the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same honour that the Prototypon is yet these be but some and that which is said by these some is not so to be vnderstood as M. White seemeth willing to make his Reader beleeue as though they meant that the verie honour due to our Sauiour should be giuen to the image it selfe which cannot be vnlesse we should be so foolish as to conceaue and iudge that the image it selfe were indeed Christ the Sonne of God which none that hath learned the first rudiments of Christianity can conceaue and iudge Those therefore that vse that manner of speech do onely meane that the image is worshipped with the same worship onely improperly and per accident or at the most Analogicè All which manners are farre from giuing any
the Papists must shew by some certaine and pregnant proofe that Luther and we that refuse the Papacie haue not this light and testimonie which is not done by saying it is a priuate spirit not common to the Church For all this is denied The Spirit that giues vs this assurance is the Spirit of God the same which is common to the true Church The Spirit which inclines to humilitie order and vnitie And the persons that lay claime to this Spirit did neither presume nor rush into the text The reformation that Luther began was sought with peace and order and euen with teares nor expound it as they listed but what they held they learned of the Church not of the Romish faction and contagion that ouerspread the Church but of the true Church of God that remained in the midst of the Papacie and in former ages followed the Scripture And of this I forewarne all Papists that when they please to leaue these emptie clamours and go roundly to the point enquiring what order and humilitie Luther vsed when he first dealt against the Papacie and what Church he followed it will be iustified against him that the pride and peruersnesse and disorder that was was on their owne side and themselues were departed from the true Church These priuate men whom the Replier meanes with all humilitie and good order by supplication disputation mediation both to the Pope and Christian Princes sought the redresse of abuses their complaints were laid open before all the Courts in Germanie France Spaine England Italy Denmarke and the Christian world all countries laid downe their grieuances against the Church of Rome and openly complained of the Papacie o The Pope in his businesse with the States of the Empire about the reformation of the Church could not denie this We know saith Pope Adrian that in this holy Sea of Rome there haue bene of late yeares many abhominable things many abuses in spirituall things and excesses and all things peruersly turned vpside downe And no maruell if the disease be gone downe from the head to the members and from the Popes to inferior Prelates All we the Prelates of the church haue turned aside euery one to his owne wayes of a long time therehath not bin one that did good no not one We took vpon vs the yoke of this great dignitie to be Pope onely that we might reforme the deformed Catholik Church Adrian 6. instr pro Fra. Cheregat pag 173. Fascic rer exp fug edit Colon. 1535. The abuses errors tyrannie and oppression preuailing in this Church of Rome noted complained of by many in all ages as they grew Bernard Agobard Occham Marsil de Rosate Clemangis Aluarus Gerson Alliaco Auentine c. See this point handled by D. Field l. 3. c. 7. and in his Append. added to that chapter as departed from the doctrine and canons of the ancient Church But particularly what order humilitie and respect of vnitie was in Luther when he opposed himselfe shall best appeare by p Tom. 7. Wittemb 22. pag â— his owne words All this time wherein the cause of Religion hath bene heard before the Emperour and in many great assemblies touching that which belongs to the Pope and his Bishops vpon desire of publicke peace and safetie as much as could stand with Gods truth we haue caried our selues lowly enough that they might if they would haue vnderstood long ago that we did not aime at the weakening of their power to change the present state of things or the Ecclesiasticall pollicie of the Church WE PLAINLY AND EXPRESLY PROFESSED AS OVR BOOKES BEARE WITNES THAT IF THEY WOVLD NOT CONSTRAINE VS TO ARTICLES OPENLY IMPIOVS AND BLASPHEMOVS WE WOVLD DEFEND THEM IN OTHER THINGS But when reuerently and suppliantly PROSTRATE at their feete we onely demanded MOST IVST THINGS IN THE GREATEST MATTERS and for the publicke good we were not counted worthy to obtaine any thing but wisedome is driuen away from among them and THINGS ARE CARIED WITH STRONG HAND They will constraine vs from the manifest truth against our wils to receiue their abominations WITH WHAT RIGHR OR WRONG THEY DEALE WITH VS THEY CARE NOT BVT THE VPSHOT IS THIS THEY WOVLD HAVE THE TRVTH AND VS BY ANY MEANES SVPPRESSED THIS THOV LORD IESVS CHRIST THE SONNE OF THE LIVING GOD WILT IVDGE For when as like Pharaoh they be hardened against THE TEARES of suppliants peraduenture their end presses vpon them c. Thus the Pope with his Cleargie proudly contemning all things and deluding the world with promises of reformation and persecuting with fire and sword such as complained the first reformers by this tyrannie and dissembling were driuen to leaue the Papacie as the seate of Antichrist and the neast of all heresie and abhominations The which is so true that our aduersaries haue purged and forbidden the bookes containing these complaints and raile vpon vs when wee produce or mention them as this Replier doth vpon mee throughout his booke and most impudently denie them and vse other the most dishonest shifts that euer were which makes it plaine that they dare not enter this triall but with noise and scurrilitie outface all things that leade that way I haue said it often in my writings and here I say it again * Nec moueor clamoribus Epicureorum aut hypocritarum qui aut rident aut damnanâ— manifestam veritatem sed verè statuo consensum perpetuum esse Catholicae Ecclesiae Dei hane ipsam doctrina vocem qua sâ—naâ— in Ecclesiis nostris Philip. Melancth praef in 2 tom Luth. THE ABVSES AND CORRVPTIONS OF THE COVRT AND CHVRCH OF ROME WERE SEEN MISLIKED AND COMPLAINED OF BY THE BEST MEN AND WISEST STATES THAT WERE BOTH BEFORE AND AFTER LVTHER OPPOSED HIMSELFE AND THE ARTICLES OF RELIGION WHEREIN THE REFORMED CHVRCHES STAND AGAINST THE IESVITES ARE THE MANIFEST DOCTRINE OF THE SCRIPTVRES AND ANCIENT FATHERS AND WERE HELD BY DIVERS OF THE BEST LEARNED IN THE CHVRCH OF ROME EVEN IN THESE LAST 700 YEARES THE DOCTRINE LATELY DETERMINED BY THE TRENT COVNCELL AND NOW SO VIOLENTLY DEFENDED BY THE IESVITES BEING NEVER GENERALLY OR VNIFORMLY RECEIVED IN THE CHVRCH OF ROME BVT BROACHED AND PVT FORWARD BY THE FACTION OF SOME THEREIN AGAINST THE REST. 7 And whereas the Replier sayes we haue no ground to assure vs which may not in like maner and with as good colour be alledged by others whom our selues confesse to be deceiued I answer that we do not onely alledge the Scripture the Spirit of God the Church the Pastors therein which any hereticke may do but we alledge them truly q Varim quideÌ„ diuersus ex vno tamen fonto haereticâ— prauttatis error emersit cardo pessimus origo maloruÌ„ quae ex se cunctarum impâ—etatum occasioneÌ„ peperit haec estâ— dum celestium dictorum virtus vitio male intelligentium temerata non secundùm sui qualitateÌ„ sensus perpenditur sed in alias res pro
the backe side d In THE WAY §. 38. He said the Protestants were euidently more wicked then in old time e §. 40. And their doctrine such as could not but leade to all loosenesse and liberty all true holinesse was in Rome which was a signe it was the true Church Against this insolency I opposed the digression that seems so much to offend his stomacke against which whatsoeuer he oppose it will be small aduantage to him so long as whatsoeuer he shall say either against our Euangelicall brethren or our primitiue parents will proue but the reports of a Gifford or a Bolseâ—ke or a Cochlaeus that is to say a Knight of the Post one of their one side and our vowed enemie whereas whatsoeuer we produce shall be out of his owne writers and as famous and credible men as any they haue in their Church And the things reported shall touch their crowne and the Top-gallant of their Church 6 M. White therefore grants that he regards not what can be obiected against his brethren vpon this ground because he knowes no more can be obiected then is obiected already and hath so much insight into matters that withouâ— either blind zeale or malice or deuising he can vie turnes and obiect againe to better purpose his knowledge in the historie of Popish times and experience of Romish sanctitie being such that he will not exchange it hastily for twise as much as is writteÌ„ in the Repliars Caluino-Turcismus Briarly against the Protestants And so to come in againe with the Repliar the conclusion shall be the same that is said a THE WAY pag. 347. in my booke quoted in his margent It had not bene possible the Popish D D. should haue spoken so waueringly and vncertainely if that they say in the points of their faith had bene alway vniuersall in the Church when in things alwaies beleeued as the Trinitie and Incarnation they speake resolutely enough And my aduersaries discourse to the contrary is nothing to the purpose For first what varietie of opinions soeuer be among vs and whatsoeuer he can vrge and how little meanes soeuer we haue to take away this varietie that answers not my argument as b THE WAY §. 33. 34. I answered this recrimination to the full in my first writing whither I refer him The second that this varietie of opinions among his D D. is not in matters of faith is denied and answered a little before c N. 1. 4 twise ouer and this is but a tricke put vpon the ignorant that they should not stumble at these innouations and to hide the same from being espied The third that the things wherein their D D. dissent and are not so certaine as they are in the articles of the Trinitie and the Incarnation are not so necessarie to be expresly knowne nor so expresly determined by the Church whereupon men haue not bene so carefull to get this knowledge of them which is the cause why they vary rather in them then in the matter of the Trinitie or Incarnation confesses three things first that the articles of Papistry as Transubstantiation for example is not so necessarie to be knowne as the mysterie of the Trinitie or of the Incarnation Secondly that the Church hath not so expresly determined them Thirdly men are not bound to be so carefull in getting the expresse knowledge of them This is the same that I said They were not therefore so vniuersally receiued in the Church And confirmes my assertion in this place that they are not to be visibly seene and read in the writings of the Doctors of the primitiue Church For being neither necessary to be knowne nor expresly determined nor such as men thought themselues bound to learne how should they write them And if they writ them not it will be but labor lost for the Repliar to go about to proue they beleeued them his implicite beleeuing is too short and then if they beleeued them not downe comes the catalogue and the Church of Rome which I beleeue expresly will proue the seate of Antichrist and mother of heresies thus to maintaine that which the ancient Church neither writ nor read nor yet beleeued CHAP. XLVII 1 Councells haue erred and may erre 2 What manner of Councells they be that the Papists say cannot erre 3 It is confessed that both Councels and Pope may erre A.D. The third obiection Thirdly my Aduersaries may obiect errors to haue bene not onely in priuate Doctors Pag. 277. but also in the decrees of Councells This stale obiection is answered I know not how often by Catholicke authors The summe of the answer is that either the Councels which may be obiected by my Aduersaries were not generall Councels lawfully called continued and confirmed or that which is by my Aduersaries accounted an error either was no error or was not definitiuely concluded the error rather being in my Aduersaries or other whom they haue followed who may either ignorantly account that an error which is none or corruptly cite the words or misinterprete the minde of the Councels alledging that to haue bene defined by this or that Councell which is not So that it pertaineth to my aduersaries if they wil obtaine any thing by this obiectioÌ„ not onely to say this Councell and the other Councell haue erred but they must proue the Councell whose error they shall obiect to haue bene a generall Councell lawfully called continued and confirmed And that the error is an error in faith and that this error was concluded by the definitiue sentence of the Councell truly cited without corruption and truly interpreted according to the minde of the Councell 1 THat Councels of Bishops may erre is a truth as I noted in a §. 15. n. 6. 44 n. 6. the WAY the Replie denies not for Panormitan b Panorm de elect c. Signif saies In things concerning faith a Councell is aboue the Pope and yet a Councell may erre and sometime hath erred Waldensis c Doctr. sid tom 1. l. 2. c. 19. sayes A particular Church though it were the particular Romane Church is not that Church that cannot erre in faith but the vniuersall Church not as it is assembled in a generall Councell which we haue perceiued sometimes to erre but the Catholicke Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world from the baptisme of Christ by the Apostles and their successors to these daies is it Dominicus Iacobatius d Iacobat de concil l. 10 art 7. ad â— p. 731. sayes A particular Church yea a Councell representing the vniuersall Church may erre But that which we obiect in this place is properly and most especially against the latter Councels holden since the time that the Papacie preuailed in the Church of Rome these last 800 yeares though the same also be true of many holden before For such Councels haue erred and iudged erroniously whose doctrine our Aduersaries ought to giue vs leaue to examine
whether it agree with the faith of the Apostolique Church and not oppresse vs with the name of their Councels And when we shew not onely particular Doctors in the Church of Rome to haue erred but their chiefest Councels also such as were those of Neece Lateran Florence Constance and Trent they are bound to quit them or not to deny our obiection 2 Therefore he grants that some kinde of Councell may erre and haue erred but he denies that Councels which haue bene generall and lawfully called and confirmed by the Pope can erre For this is the new distinction now in fashion Yet the meaning is not that a Councell either generall or called or lawfully called by the Pope himselfe or holden by his Legate is free from error vnlesse the Pope ratifie it vpon which ratification he thinkes all the authoritie of Councels must depend 1. Can. Loc l. 5. c. 4 concl 1. Staple relect controu 6. q. 3. art 4 2 Can. concl 2. Stapl. vbi sup The conclusions of his Doctors are these 1. A generall Councell not assembled nor confirmed by the Popes authoritie may erre in the faith 2. A generall Councell assembled by the Popes authoritie may erre in the faith 3. A generall Councell 3 Can. c. 5. Azor institut to 2. l. 5. c 12. Dom. Bann p. 135. concl 2. 4 Can c. 4. concl 3. Bellar. de Concil l. 2. c. 2. duely called and celebrated by the authority of the Popes Legates but yet not confirmed by the Popes authority may erre 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the Popes authority cannot erre My aduersarie answers by the last of these conclusions and biddes me proue the Councell whose errour is obiected to haue bene lawfully called continued and confirmed But this shall not need at this time because the Councels whose errors we most obiect he will confesse are such as the Pope hath confirmed And though I beleeue neither the calling continuance nor confirmation of Councels depends on the Pope yet will I be so farre from denying these Councels whose errours I obiect to be confirmed by him that I auouch their errours chiefely to haue sprong from his intermedling and vsurped authority ouer the Bishops therein who had lesse erred and more maintained the truth if he had lesse medled The Councels therefore charged with innouating the ancient faith are such as our aduersaries can take no exception to but whether they were generall or nationall called or not called continued or not continued by the Pope the Pope allowes them they being the soundest Councels that he least allowes 3 All the question will be whether the things obiected be errours for he thinkes it can be no errour that the Pope confirmes But he deceaues himselfe if he thinke the Popes authority can free Councels from erring e Papa in casu haeresis est ipso iute priuatuâ— Papatu Dom. Iacobat de Concil l. 10. art 7. p. 727 d. who himselfe may erre and be an hereticke the contrary whereof was neuer taught in the Church of Rome till of late time certaine parasites to gratifie the Pope and make their faction strong began to teach it For Waldensis f Wald. vbi sup saies None of these neither a Synod of Bishops nor a common decree in the Church of Rome nor peraduenture a generall Councell of the Fathers of the world is the Catholicke symbolicall Church mentioned in the Creed nor challengeth faith to be giuen vnto it Alphonsus g Adu Haer. l. 1. c. 4. calles them impudent flatterers that ascribe to the Pope the gift of not erring The Vniuersity of Paris alway hath maintained this against the Court of Rome whereof it seemes the prouerbe grew * Dici solet articulos ParisieÌ„ses non transire montes Alph. à . Caâ—t l. 1. c. 8. that the articles of Paris go not beyond the Alps. The Cardinall of Florence h Zabar de schism p. 703. edit Basil 1566 saies the Fulnesse of power is in the Pope but yet so that he erres not for if he erre then a Councell hath to do to conuert him wherein the fulnesse of power is as in the foundation Neither can the Pope by his constitution or by any other way make resistance in this point because so the Church should be subuerted And whatsoeuer our aduersaries hold or will graunt the thing it selfe is cleare that he and his Councels haue erred and of a Pastor is turned into an hereticke the greatest that euer was and this we prooue by the Scripture and doctrine of the Primitiue Church in all the controuersies depending betweene vs. Next whether the things obiected be errours or no must be tried by the word of God and iudged by the Catholicke Church and not by the peremptory censure of such as my Replyar is our assertion therefore is that the worship of images for example decreed by the Councell of Neece the communion in one kinde decreed by the Councell of Constance and the seuerall points which wee reiect in the Councels of Lateran Vienna Constance Trent Florence Colen Millan and the rest of that kinde are errours and damnable heresies contrary to the faith of the ancient Church Which assertion we proue by shewing the same points to be against the Scripture first and then repugnant to that which the ancient Fathers with vnanime consent taught and defended in their time Which the Repliar must not thinke to out-face with saying we ignorantly account that an errour which is none or corruptly cite the words or misinterpret the minde of the Councell for we both alleadge the wordes and minde of the Councels truly and challenge nothing in them to be erronious but what is contrary to the word of God and many learned in the Church of Rome confesse to be so as well as we as shall appeare in that which insues touching the second Nicen Councell approued by Pope Adrian and yet accused and refused as erronious in that which Adrian approued by all the Churches of these Westerne parts in another Councell vnder Charles the Great holden at Frankford CHAP. XLVIII Touching the Councels of Neece the Second and Frankeford 2. How the Nicene decreed images to be adored 3. What kinde of Councell it was 4. And what manner of one that of Frankeford was Frankeford condemned the Second Nicen 5. Touching the Booke of Charles the Great and of what credite it is A.D.M. White maketh his faire flourish about the Second Nicen Councell condemned as he endeauoureth to proue by the Councell of Frankeford Pag. 278. Wh. in his Praef to the reader for defining that the same adoration and seruice ought to be giuen to images of Saints which is giuen to the diuine Trinity But first the Nicene Councell which indeed was a generall Councell did not define that images were to be worshipped with honour onely due to God which supposeth that men must accompt images Gods This grosse conceite could neuer haue entred into any Christian mans minde who knoweth
as giue the diuine honour of the immortall God to a dumbe creature whose image soeuer it be And if Azorius e Azo vbi sup say true that this doctrine of Thomas and his Diuines was insinuated by the Councell of Nice then my Replier is guiltie of a third vntruth because he denies it presuming vpon the words contained in the seuenth act of the Councell which yet these Iesuites expound to containe nothing against their opinion which exposition and report of the Iesuites if you adde to that I cited out of the Emperours booke and ioyne withall the words of Baronius who reporteth that the Bishops of France conceiued the minde of the Nicene Councell to be that images should be adored with latria The Replier will haue something to doe before he can quit his Nicene Councell from that which he sayes I impute vnto it But if his Councell of Trent also be of the same minde as f Suar. tom 1. disp 54. sect 4. Vasq a dorat disp 8. c. 14. Azor. inst mor. tom 1. l. 9. c. 6. the Iesuites resolutely affirme it is then this grosse conceit went farre and their case is but indifferent that hitherto haue built their faith touching this and other points of religion vpon such as by the Repliers owne verdit were no Christians nor knew the first rudiments of religion 3 Thirdly he vpbraids me with malepertnesse for calling the Bishops of the Nicene Councell simple and vnlearned but it is his destiny still to crosse and infatuate himselfe with his forwardnesse for his owne words calls them grosse conceited and ignorant of the first rudiments of religion that hold the seruing and adoring of images with the same adoration and seruice that is giuen to the Trinitie And that they thus held and defined the Emperours booke and the Iesuites themselues testifie that I might well say they were both simple and vnlearned and something worse Thus therefore I excuse my selfe it is no malepertnesse to call them simple or vnlearned who teach the giuing of diuine honour to an image because the Replier confesseth this to be a grosse conceite of such as know not the first rudiments of religion nor that there is a God But the second Nicene Councell taught this For Azorius sayes it insinuated the worshipping of images with the same worshippe that is giuen to the samplars which is diuine worshippe in the images of God and Christ They insinuated therefore that images should be worshipped with diuine honour the same that is giuen to God and Christ Therefore they were a packe of simple and vnlearned heretickes But because he is so zealous for his friends I will if I can a little coole him till hee know better what and who they were Claudius Espencaeus a Doctour in his owne Church g Com. in 2. Tim. pag. 151. Paris hath written of them that the Greekes in their contention about Images on both sides handled the matter out of fabulous and vncertaine writings They which opposed them with writings falsely inscribed by heretickes and * Qui propugnabant daemoniaÌ„ etiam spectris muliebribus somnijs parùm verecundè abutentes they which defended them did it also with delusions of diuels and with little modestie thereto abused womens dreames as may be read in the Nicene Councell This is more then I said For I spake as temperately as it was possible of so fond Idolaters but Espencaeus giues it them with open mouth It may be read in the second Nicene Councell how images were defended with womens dreames and delusions of diuels which speech whosoeuer mislikes must consider it comes from a learned Papist and not from mee and the actes and processe of the Councell will shew it to be true The forgeries and fables and trifling discourses therein contained being such as are able to prouoke any that reades them and our aduersaries themselues are not a little intangled in them 4 Hauing thus affirmed how truly it skilleth not to the point in question that the Nicene Councell defined not the worshippe of Images with diuine honour hee passeth to the Councell of Frankford wherein I said the Nicene was condemned and the actes thereof concerning images abrogated Whereto hee answers not one true word First hee sayes the Councell of Frankford was not generall But I had witnesses in the margent that it was h Ouand 4 d. 2. prop. 8. Ouandus There were present three hundred Bishops with the Popes Legats so that the Fathers who were present called it a full Synod and in truth it cannot be cast off as a Prouinciall Councell or as without a head If it were not Prouinciall and had the Pope for head it must not bee denied to bee generall Baronius i An. 794. n. 1. sayes It is found to be called a plenarie Councell for the multitude of the Bishops and presence of the Legats of the Apostolicke sea The Bishops of Italie France and Germanie were there Hincmarus sayes it was a generall Councell whose words see * In the letter o below Secondly he shuffles with a parenthesis as if the Popes Legats were not there But you see what Baronius and Ouandus say k Chr. l. 2. n. 794 Rhegino and l Chro. an 793. the Abbot of Vrsperge testifie the same Thirdly he sayes if they were there they confirmed not any such condemnation The which is impertinent For I onely intend to shew that in the iudgement of the Christian world the bringing in of image-worship was condemned Whether the want of the Legates assent make the condemnation voide or no I care not but the reader may see Pope Adrians packing with the Greekes to set vp images was noted and resisted by all the Prouinces of the Westerne Empire Let our aduersaries proue the want of the Legats assent makes this a nullitie Fourthly hee sayes no such condemnation is to be found in the Councell of Frankford but onely in a booke ascribed to Charles and I answer the Councell of Frankford as it is set foorth in the tomes of the Councels hee knowes well enough is imperfect and containes not all that was done therein But marke what Bellarmine m De imag l. 2. c. 1◠§. Primò quâ—â— sayes That booke of Charles containes the acts of the Councell of Frankford and it may not be doubted but the Councell therein condemned is indeed the second Nicene n An. 794 n. 31. Baronius sayes that Hincmarus the Archbishop of Rhemes a writer of those times affirmes the booke to containe the acts of the Councell of Frankford that we are not to doubt thereof it containes many chapters against the Nicene Councell The words of this Hincmarus are these that my aduersarie may a litle blush at his rashnesse o Hincmar lib. cont landun c. 20. But the seuenth Synod vntruly so called which the Greekes call vniuersall not long before my time was holden at Nice and sent to Rome which the Pope againe directed
morall law of God indispensable that violence and corruption shall bring none to the altar Secondly de facto it hath not hitherto bene repealed nor k See Cresper sum v. Papa electio the many lawes to the same effect made from the beginning and therefore it and they hold in all the vnlawfull successions that are past nullifying and disabling them Thirdly the Pope thus entring cannot repeale them because by them he is no Pope and none can abrogate a former decree but he that is a lawfull Pope If therefore the Popes owne law or the originall constitution of the vniuersall Church forbidding simoniacall hereticall and violent entrances be of any force to giue being or not being succession or not succession thereunto it is more then manifest that by Simonie and violent intrusions the outward succession of the Bishops of Rome hath notoriously bene interrupted and ouerthrowne To that he supplies touching the vacancie I haue said before 11 But I obiected yet three other things First the wicked and monstrous life of many Popes Secondly the infancie of one and the youth of some other For Bennet was but 10 yeare old when he was chosen Thirdly the vnlearnednesse of many who vnderstood not any part of the word of God by all which I shewed the succession to haue bene ouerthrowne as well as by the former To the first he saies that as the lewd life of the Pharisees was no iust cause to hinder the people from hearing them sitting as they did in Moses chaire no more doth the euil life of the Pope disable him from being the vniuersall Pastor of the Church Yet who sees not that if the Pope were Christs vicar the rule of faith and iudge of religion whom all men must obey in whatsoeuer he teaches touching faith and manners God were bound to guide him from falling into such horrible wickednesse They haue bene heretickes murtherers Sodomites Incestuous Adulterers Traitors Coniurers Nigromancers Drunkards Atheists Diuels incarnate the onely monsters that the Church hath bred and when they are at the best they are commonly worse then the ordinary sort of men all this I haue shewed and proued and is it probable God hath put such persons into such authoritie and committed the whole administration of his Church to them True it is the Pharisees must be obeyed * The text affirmes no more See the WAY §. 14. nu 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theophylact in Matth. 23. p. 97. Maldonate the Iesuite hauing cast off the exposition that said The chaire coÌ„strained them to teach the truth expounds it thus Ergo cum iubet serâ—are ac facere quae Scribae Pharâ—saei dum in Cathedra Mosis sedeâ—t dicunt non de ipsorum sed de legis ac Mâ—sis doctrina loquitur perinde enim est ac si dicat omnia quae lex Moses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruare ac facite in that they taught truely notwithstanding their wicked liues and this priuiledge we deny neither the Pope nor any Bishop be he neuer such a monster if he haue a calling to the place he holds and teaches according to the chaire of truth let not his vnholy life discharge the flocke from hearing him But neither hath the Pope any lawfull calling to the office he claimes and exercises nor doth he teach according to the chaire of truth and therefore his wicked life argues Gods curse vpon both his place and his person to occupie such a place as God hath not ordained To the second and third he grants a young child or a wilde youth or an ignorant vnlearned man may well be Pope because our Lord out of the mouth of infants can worke his praise and by the mouth of an Asse instruct a Prophet Hearken then you that are the Popes subiects I will but keepe quarters with his answer you haue often heard of Asinus ad lyram now you may heare Asinum in Cathedra my Aduersarie saies if a golden Asse take holy orders or which God forbid De Asinitate Romani Pontificis Schiopp Ecclesiast should chance to be made Pope of Rome stabled in the Vatican when heresies or controuersies in Religion arise the Cardinals and Bishops adoring him might safely inquire at his mouth what is to be done and what to be holden for the truth In old time a Iud. 10.4 12.14 Princes children had wont to ride vppon Asses now the newes is that Asses may ride vpon Princes and Cardinals and Friars may be his footmen This is the consequence of my Aduersaries Reply for it deserues no better answer that maintaines the sufficiency of a child ten yeares of age and of an ignorant vnlearned man or for need of an Asse for the supporting of the faith and frame of the Catholicke Church of Christ Sidonius b Sidon lib. 1. epist 8. saies merrily of the lake of Rauenna that there as if the world were turned vpside downe the wals flow and the waters stand towers saile and ships stand still sicke men walke and their Physitions lie the liuing suffer thirst and the dead swim theeues wake and powers sleepe Clearks exercise vsury and Iewes sing This peruerse order of things is allowed in the Church of Rome by my Aduersaries conceite of infants and Asses A.D. To the EIGHT I answer Pag. 292. that the Schismes which haue bene in the Papacie do not ouerthrow true succession For in those Schismes vnlesse for a time there were vacancie of the Sea there was alwaies either one who truly was and who was to some certainely knowne to be Pope as for example Vrbanus and his successours were in the time of the great schisme knowne to be true Popes or else if for any short time there was none certainely knowne to be true Pope there wanted not meanes in Gods Church in such a case to cleare the doubt by making a new vndoubtable lawfull election either in an ordinary manner prescribed by some precedent true Pope or in an extraordinary manner prescribed by the Church in a generall Councell or otherwise graue and vrgent circumstances requiring that such extraordinary manner of election should be then vsed As for example when in time of schisme great doubt is who is true Pope in which extraordinary manner Martinus Quintus was lawfull elected true Pope Thus I hope I haue answered the chiefe arguments that my Aduersaries do or can obiect against my Catalogue c. 12 What man would imagine a succession wherein haue bene more schismes then euer was in any one Sea should be offered vs with that confidence that this of Rome is There are assigned not so few as 30 seuerall times wherein there haue bene either foure or three or two Popes at once of which schismes some haue continued a long space together with the greatest violence and outrage of one Pope against another that can be said no man liuing being able to discerne which was the true successor