is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth
founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. 〈◊〉 â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life 〈◊〉 Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell 〈◊〉 Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her