proufe is nedelesse the thing is manifest * Harding Here treating of Succession as thou seest Reader I haue among other things brought forth TertulliaÌ„ demauÌ„ding of the Heretikes the Original of their Churches Tertul. lib. de praescription and the Register of their Bishops succeding one an an other from the beginning til his tyme. Againe I haue alleged S. Augustine naming 38. Popes of Rome in order August Epist 165 and thereof coÌ„cluded that bicause neuer a one of them was a Donatist the Donatists were al Heretikes Whereupon I also concluded that seing among al the Popes from S. Peter til this daie none was of M. Iewels opinion he and his felowes the Zuinglians and Caluinistes must by the rule S. of Augustine be taken for Heretiques For the true Churche is where the true ordinarie and manifest Succession is from the Apostles til these our dayes This only I require of thee gentle reader that thou woldest vouchesafe to reade this matter through and not to iudge before al be heard For in deede following M. Iewelles confuse order of writing I could not dispose my thinges in such Methode and Order as the weight of the matter requireth Bicause the matter is of importance I intend to leaue out no parte of M. Iewelles woordes whereby he maie seeme to impugne the Catholique doctrine And by the treatie of this one poynte it will appeare what huge bookes we should write if we should directe a ful answer to euerie parte of his idle talke in the pretensed Defence conteined Thus then he beginneth Iewel Pag. 127. Here hath M. Harding taken some paines more then ordinarie He thought if he could by any coloure make the vvorld beleeue vve haue neither Bisshoppes nor Priestes nor Deacons this daie in the Church of England he might the more easily claime the vvhole right vnto himselfe And in deede if it vvere certaine that the religion and truth of God passeth euermore orderly by Succession and none othervvise then vvere Succession vvhereof he hath tolde vs so long a tale a verie good substantial Argument of the Truth Harding Irenaeus saith it is a certaine Rule to knowe the Truth by For hauing reckened twelue Popes who in order succeded after S. Peter to wit Linus Anacletus Clemens Euaristus Alexander Sixtus Telesphorus Hyginus Pius Aniceâ—â— Soter and Eleutherius who then was the twelfth Bishop from the Apostles Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 3. immediatly he saith thus Hac ordinatione successione ea quae est ab Apostolis in Ecclesia Traditio veritatis praeconiatio peruenit vsque ad nos Et est pleâ—issima haec â—stensio vnim eandem viuificatricem fidem esse quae in Ecclesia ab Apostolis vsque nunc sit coÌ„seruata troditain veritate By this order and Succession the Tradition and preaching of the truth whiche is in the Churche from the Apostles time came euen to our daies And this is a most ful declaration that the faith whiche is kept in the Churche and deliuered in truth from the Apostles time euen til this present hower is the one selfe same faith which is the causer of life and of saluation He saith it is a most ful declaration of the true and liuely faith And you wil confesse I trow that where that faith is there is the true Churche of God Such a Succession of Bishoppes in diuers countries we haue and can shew it from the Apostles time til this daie As the rew and order of Popes in al Chronicles doth shew to the eie and witnesseth to the vnderstanding But such a Succession M. Iewel and his fellowes haue not therefore by his owne confession we haue a good substantial Argument of the Truth Iewel Pag. 127. But Christe saith In cathedra Moysi sederunt Scribae Pharisaei by order of succession the scribes Math. 22. and Pharisees sitte in Moyses chaier Harding Wel handled M. Iewel You bring these wordes as though Christe had spoken them in the reproche of Succession Whereas Christ in that place made an ArgumeÌ„t for Succession in this wise Super cathedram Moysi sederunt Scriba Pharisaei Math. 23. omnia ergo quaecunque dixerint vobis seruate facite Vpon the chaier of Moyses the Scribes and Pharisees haue sitten Therefore kepe ye and do ye what so euer they saie vnto you or commaund you to kepe Could you not see that Ergo M. Iewel whiche is to saie Therefore Could you not perceiue that Christ made a plaine argument why and why only the Scribes and Pharisees should be obeied The matter goeth as if in moe wordes it had ben thus said The Scribes and Pharisees be naughtie men their workes are not to be folowed they â—ie heauy and importable burdens laying them on mens shoulders Math. 23. but they themselues wil not so much as once mâ—â—â— them with their finger They do al their workes for a shew Thus Christ him selfe doth paint them forth al whiche notwithstanding for onely Successions sake bicause by order of Succession they sit in Moyses chaier which my father and I haue planted in respecte thereof doo ye and kepe what so euer they commaund you to doo and kepe Mark the vvord of keeping Marke that he bindeth the people to obeie the very Scribes for Successions sake and to obeye them in keeping and obseruing the former lawes and rites To keepe I saye Beware of that Bishop who not succeding but vsurping the Chaier of good men as M. Iewel doth hauing iustled him selfe into the Chaier of good S. Osmund and others mo in the Churche of Sarisburie doth yet commaund the people not to keepe thinges but to cast them away These nevv Bisshoppes vvil not the people to kepe their faith but to chaÌ„ge their faith There is no Bishop of this newe Religion that commaundeth the people to keepe their olde faith and law but alwaies he biddeth them to change it But Christe bad the people to doo that whiche the Pharisees commaunded them to keepe and not to folow their deedes The Pharisees killed Christe but by keeping their lawes and Orders they should neuer haue come thereto If euer place of holy Scripture made for any truth in the Gospel this place which M. Iewel bringeth against Succession maketh for it and so for it that it can neuer be auoided What Doctor euer wrote vpon the holy Scriptures who might not now be brought for a witnesse of this my assertion S. Augustine saith that Christe made the people secure concerning euil Rulers Ne propter illos doctrinae salutaris Cathedra descreretur August Epist 166. in qua coguntur etiam mali bona dicere Neque enim suae sunt quae dicunt sed Dei qui in cathedra Vnitatis doctrinam posuit veritatis Lest for their sakes the chaier of holesom Doctrine should be forsaken in the whiche yea wicked men are forced to saie that whiche is good For the thinges whiche they saie are not their owne but Gods who in
doctrine is to be adiudged to come of lying as that which sauoureth against the truth of the Churches of the Apostles of Christ and of God Our doctrine proued to be true by the Successiō of the Apostolique Churche Now concerning our Churches it is euident that we agree with the original and mother Churches which were planted by the Apostles For we agree in faith with the Churche of Rome which was planted by the most blessed Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule and alwaies kepte her Succession til this present daie and therefore our doctrine is true But you agree in faith with no Churche at al now extant in the worlde which came from the Apostles and therefore your doctrine by the rule of Tertullian is false and lying Whiles he then disputed with Heretikes as we doo now with you he said either these Heretikes confesse that they beganne since the Apostles time and they are false teachers or if any of them dare intrude them selues into the Apostles age Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum then let them bring forth the beginninges or shew the original euidences of their Churches let them vnfold the order of their Bishops so ronning along from the beginning by Succession that he who is the first Bishop had for his founder and predecessour one of the Apostles or of the Apostolike men who continued til the ende with the Apostles in the same faith Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt For by this way the Apostolike churches do shew forth along their publike registers At length hauing brought forth the examples of the Churche of Smyrna and of the Churche of Rome and of other like Churches he concludeth thus confidenly Consingant tale aliquid Haeretic◠let the Heretiques feine some suche matter He bad them feme For he wel knewe in truth they coulde shew no suche Succession I haue then shewed that Tertullian spake not of Heretikes who lacked the pretense of Gods worde M. Ievvels Doctrine is proued by Tertulliā erroneus for lacke of Succession proued but of them who had no Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne age And one such Succession of Bishoppes in any one Church of al the worlde seing M. Iewel can not bring forth it remaineth that he is an Heretike and that his Doctrine is erroneus false and heretical Iewel Tertullian saith not vnto vs but vnto you and suche as you be let them shevv forth the Originals of their Churches Harding Is that al he saith M. Iewel Why went you not forth to the next wordes The Scrolles or rolles of Bishops names Let them vnfold the order of their Bishoppes He calleth it vnfolding bicause the Bishoppes names were vsed to be kept and written in order in long Rolles the whiche Rolles must be vnfolded when they are to be read He meant not therefore such Originals M. Iewel as you imagine to wit particular examples of this or that facte but he meant the Original copies or instrumentes and euidences of founding and planting of their Churche who it was that preached the Faith first vnto them and who was their first Bishop who the second who the third and so forth vntil the present time Iewel Euen so vve say vnto you shevv vs the Originals of your doctrine Harding You say not euen right so as Tertullian said For he called not for the Originals of Doctrine but of Churches Originals of Churches For by the Churches the Doctrine is knowen to be good or euil to be allowable or reproueable Iewel Shevv vs any one of the Apostles of Christe or of the learned Catholike Doctours of the Churche that euer said your priuate Masse Shevv one at the lest either Greeke or Latine Harding It was not that which Tertullian required He demaunded only for the Originals of Churches and for the order and Succession of Bishops But for that you durst not cal knowing that we could shew how S. Augustine conuerted vs being sent into England from S. Gregorie the Pope whiche Pope S. Gregorie succeded S. Peter in his Chaier Thus we can shew the Originals of our Churches bringing them from the Catholike Bishops whiche are yet aliue M. Ievvslyly diuerteth from the present matter to an other mater impertinent touching priuate Masse vpward vntil S. Peter But you are fallen away from the matter of Succession which only Tertullian presseth and are now come to demaunde of a particular facte whether any Apostle or olde Father euer said priuat Masse or no. I say al of them might haue said priuate Masse and that I proue by Tertullians reason and rule bicause the vse of saying priuate Masse came to vs time out of minde by Succession without any change or innouation noted therin by any storie or Chronicle And yet was ther neuer any strange or new thing receiued and vsed in the Churche but that great trouble came thereof as now there doth of your changing of Religion the whiche trouble of Churches and common Weales is at no time omitted in the stories of that age wherein it falleth But now seing the vse of saying priuat Masse came so peaseably to vs from hand to hand and no first author thereof can be shewed it is out of al controuersie that it was euer accompted a Godly and a lawful thing But what neede I now to repeate that I haue already written in that argument Answer that parte of my booke better to the purpose then yet ye haue donne whiche treateth of that point where many plaine euidences be brought forth of Sole Receiuing Sole Receiuing in the Primitiue Churche In my ansvvere Art 1. and likevvise in my first Reioindre Aug. Epi. 165. whiche Sole Receiuing is the onely thing for whiche you reproue priuate Masse as you cal it It is cleare that S. Chrysostom and certaine others said Masse and yet had no man to receiue with them as I haue other where declared I thinke not good now to fal into that Disputation againe and therefore here I wil cal you home to the present Argument of Succession Iewel Pag. 128. 129. S. Augustine saith of so many Bishops of Rome there could not one be found that had benne a Donatiste Euen so in like sorte say vve to you of al the same Bishops of Rome there can not be one found that euer agreed vvith M. Harding in saying Masse Or if there vvere any such shevv his name vvith other Circumstances vvhen and vvhere and vvho vvere vvitnesses of the doing Shevv vs your Originals M. Harding Confesse the Truth deceiue vs no longer It is a nevv deuise ye haue it only of your selues and not by Succession from the Apostles Harding You pretend to reason like S. Augustine as though he had reasoned vpon a particular facte and not vpon the Doctrine Euen so in like sorte say you and it is not euen so nor in like sorte S. Augustine concluded that the Donatistes were Heretikes S. Augustines
ye must go into the pit of Hel to fetch out Aêrius Pelagius Vigilantius Iouinian Heluidius Manichaeus and such others of condemned memorie to geue light vnto your Churche or els you can bring foorth none at al. For whereas al the Greekes Epiphan Haeres 75 as it may appeare by Epiphanius and al the Latines as it may appeare by S. Augustine condemned him for an heretike who said the prayers of the liue could not helpe the dead what catholike is it possible to bring foorth for the yere of our Lorde three hundred and fiftie or foure hundred who taught as ye now teache that it is not lawful nor profitable to praye for the dead Wel ye are not the light nor the daye Is your doctrine at the least the truth Nay that is the truth which is also the light For the true doctrine is taught in that Church which is built vpon an hil and can not be hid The truth is vniforme Math. 5. but emong you Luther and Zuinglius Caluine and Westphalus Bullinger and Brentius Illyricus and Beza and sundrie other couples and partes agree so wel that a man may easily know them to be false Prophetes For whereas they al disagree yet they are al without that Churche where vnitie is preserued in the perpetual Succession of many Bishops alwaies agreeing in one saith Therefore your doctrine is neither the light nor the daye nor the truth but darkenesse but night but errour Iewel 131. Novv for as much as ye haue thought it so good to examine the petite degree of Bishops of Sarisburie I trust you vvil not thinke it il if I a litle touch the lâ—ke in the Bishops of Rome that vve may thereby the better be hable to see some of the branches of your Succession Harding In dede they of whom you speake are but some of the branches of our Succession For you touch of two hundred and thirtye Bishops of Rome not thirteene and yet our Succession consisteth also of al the Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Germanie Sicilie Polonia Hungarie Denmarke Suethen and England euen til king Henrie the eightes time But go too on Gods name touche whom you can I am wel assured you wil plaie the Spider to espie if any poison can be found any where Let vs see with what truth and honestie you blase their faultes The worst that can be said of al the Popes touching doctrine by the Protestantes is here gathered together and laid forth by M. Iewel and the same is truly answered Iewel Pag. 131. Therefore shortly to say you knovv that Pope Marcellinus committed Idolatrie Harding Of S. Marcellinus Martyr and Pope I know that after his Idolatrie whereto he yeelded for feare of death he repented and shed his bloud for Christe and dyed a glorious Martyr euen as S. Paule after that he had persecuted the Churche through grace repented and died for Christes name Who ought now to be more ashamed of S. Marcellinus you that chalenge him for an Idolatour or I that chalenge him for a Martyr The Idolatrie you speake of is gone and pardoned the Martyrdome whereof I speake is euerlastingly crowned in heauen The ende M. Iewel trieth al whereof you should haue taken your iudgement And yet this very Idolatoure bicause he was S. Peters Successour and sate in the first See was in case for the roume he occupied to be iudged of no man in the earth as tâ—e Councel of three hundred and thirtie Bishoppes assembled at Sinuessa pronounced aboue twelue hundred yeres past Tom 1. Concil Primasedes non iudicabitur à quoquaÌ„ The first seate shal not be iudged of any man What haue you wonne now by this example but that you do the world to vnderstand what malicious stomake ye beare against the Popes of Rome whose faultes ye are right glad to espie and blase abroade although they repented of them Verely it would haue becomme a sonne of the Churche to conceele suche actes of frailtie and not to see suche spottes that were with so abundant founteines of teares cleane washed awaie and with the bloude of so glorious Martyrdom quite blotted out Iewel 131. Pope Syluester the secoÌ„d vvas a Coniurer and gaue himselfe vvhole body and soule to the Deuil and by the Deuilles procurement vvas made Pope Harding That Syluester the second came to be Pope malis artibus by euil meanes it is not so cleare a matter as you make it Platina the chiefe author we haue for credite of that Storie vttereth it doubtefully by his Parenthesis vt aiunt as they saie Whereby he geueth vs to vnderstand that he was not hable to auouche it for a certaine truthe but referreth him selfe to the vulgare rumour of the people which most commonly bruteth abroad moe lies and vanities then truthes and certainties How beit Platina Platinae in vitis PontificuÌ„ Pope Syluester 2. his repentance at the ende who tolde you al this added also Poenitentia motus errorem suum coram populo fassus c. being moued with repentance and confessing his errour before the people he first exhorted them al that ambition and the deuilles deceites laide aside they should liue wel And afterward his body was miraculously drawen by horses to the chiefe Church of Rome and there was buried If you beleue the one you must beleue the other sithence it is but one Storie whereof you told the first parte and I the last Whereupon I attribute so much to that holy Succession that I doubte not as euil a man as he once was but God delte the more mercifully with him for his good predecessours sakes who I doubte not prayed for him that he might die penitently and be a saued soule Iewel 131. Pope Zosimus for ambition and claime of gouernment corrupted the holy Councel of Nice Harding You say it Pope Zosimus sclaundered by M. Ievv but neuer did any honest man say it from the beginning of the worlde til this time neither was the same yet euer proued For albeit he alleged such wordes of a certaine Canon as the other copies had not yet did no man lay to his charge that he had corrupted the CouÌ„cel For he alleged that which he found in his own copies I say to you M. Iewel there is nothing shewed by this your tale but that you are a man of il dispositioÌ„ who gladly reporte euil and besides that you finde reported of others inuent your selfe that which vtterly is false to diminish the estimation of a holy man that died eleueÌ„ hundred yeres past Marke the point I say if it be said of any man that euer wrote in the olde time that Pope Zosimus corrupted the Councel of Nice then you or your fellowes did not feine it but if no man said it but bawdy Bale or Illyricus and suche others the like then your part is with liers and sclaunderers and thereafter shal your iudgement be without you repente whiche God graunt you M. Stapleton in the
of Popes at the first succeding one an other fol. 219. b. Ordination and Confirmation diuers fol. 227. b. Origen falsified by M. Iewel fol. 286. a. 333. b. Orders Ecclesiastical fol. 134. b. 135. a. P. Papistrie can not be shewed when it beganne fol. 106. b Patriarkes fol. 180. Peter Martyr in Strasbourg a Lutheran in England a Zuinglian fol. 34. b. Peter Martyr and dame Catherine his wife fol. 36. b. Peter Martyr at variance vvith Brentius fol. 117. b. Peters authoritie and prerogatiue fol. 174. a. 175. 176. Peter ouer the Christian Gentiles at Rome fol. 221. 〈…〉 Peter when he came to Rome fol. 221. b. Peter the feeder of al sortes in the flocke fol. 148. b. c. Peters humilitie fol. 153. Peter offended twise fol. 157. Peter foloweth the rest yet head of al by S. Augustine fol. 158. Peter receiued into indiuisible vnitie with Christ fol. 174. a. Peter ioyned with fol. Leo. 176. a. Pelagius heresie mainteined by the Caluinistes fol. 367. a. Perfection double one of Pilgrimes the other of heauen fol. 368. b Petitio principij muche vsed by M. Iewel fol. 89. a. Platina no flatterer of the Pope fol. 257. b. Pope the Heade of the Churche fol. 130. b. The Popes Supremacie proued fol. 146. 147. 148. 149. 159. b. 179. 186. a. b. The Pope Prince of Pastours fol. 177. b 178. a. The Pope leaft the Vicare of Christes loue towardes vs. fol. 148. a. The Popes confirming of Bishops fol. 223. b. 224. seq Popes charged with heresie and other enormites defended fol. 248. 249. 250. 251. 252. 253. 254. 255. 256. 257. 258. The Pope Peters Successour fol. 273. a. The Pope laufully called the Princâ—… of Pastours fol. 177. b. Possibilitie of keping Gods Commaundementes fol. 366. b. Priesthood double fol. 239. a. Priest aboue a Deacon fol. 164. b. Priestes of England are Votaries fol. 290. b. Priestes of Greece in what sence they are Votaries fol. 298. a. Priestes and religious menne whether they maie be dispensed to marrie fol. 300. b. Priestes only Iudges ouer Priestes fol. 377. a. Praying for the dead taught by S. Paule fol. 326. b. Protestantes dissent not onely one from an other but also from them selues fol. 34. a. Protestantes varie from the Primitiue Churche fol. 270. b. Protestantes be Apostates fol. 336. b. Protestantes are proued by an inuincible Argument to be no part of Christes Churche fol. 90. a. b. 92. Puritanes fol. 139. a. 332. a. R. RAymeris made king of Arragon of a Monke and married by dispensation fol. 301. a. Real presence cleerely witnessed fol. 79. a. proued 339. sequentib Rebellion against Princes mainteined by M. Iewel fol. 86. a. Religious menne married the first fouÌ„ders of this new Gospel fol. 36. b Reseruation of the Sacramente fol. 331. b. Righteousnes competent for this life fol. 368. a. Rounde capped Ministers fol. 86. b. Ruffianrie of M. Iewel detected fol. 120. b. Ruffinus belied by M. Iew. fol. 285. b. S. SAbellicus falsified by M. Iewel fol. 139. b. Sacramentes meanes to receiue grace fol. 330. a. Sacramentes seuen fol. 334 a. Sacrament of the Aulter called our maker and Lorde by S. Augustine fol. 346. a. Sacramentaries persecuted by the Lutheranes fol. 95. b. 96. a. Sacramentaries condemned by the Lutheranes fol. 104. b. Seruus seruuorum Dei the Popes stile fol. 187. b. Seuerus a blinde man by touche of a Martyrs garment recouered sight fol. 364. a. Shaxton Bishoppe no Protestant fol. 241. b. Shaxton and Capon Bishoppes of Sarisburie repented fol. 194. a. Shaxton B. not of M. Iewele side fol. 242. b. Sharpe vvordes founde in the Scriptures fol. 27. b. Sheepe of three sortes fol. 149. a. Siritius and Innocentius vvere not the first ordeiners of Clerkes coÌ„tinencie fol. 279. a. Sozomenus Gregorie Nazianzen and Eusebius belied by the Apologie fol. 309. a. Sophistrie of M. Ievvels shifting from the Scriptures to Goddes vvorde fol. 323. a. Spiridion made Bishop of a married laie man fol. 285. a Syluester 2. Pope fol. 249. a. Succession of Bishoppes treated of at large Lib. fol. 4. Succession of Bishoppes a certaine rule to knovve the Churche by fol. 198. b. 199. sequent Succession can not lacke the Truth fol. 199. 200. Succession lavvful can not be taken avvaie by man fol. 211. T. TErtulliaÌ„ of a married man made a Prieste fol. 285. a. Tertullians errour fol. 239. 240. Three vvaies of vvriting against an aduersarie fol. 42. b. Tradition fol. 270. a. Traditions belonging to SacrameÌ„ts maie not be changed Ceremonies maie fol. 326. a. Traditores what they were in the primitiue Churche fol. 91. a. Transubstantiation fol. 110. b. treated of 346. b. This is my Bodie meant properly fol. 339. a. Turkes inuasion brideled fol. 266. a. V. VAriance of opinion betwen two Ministers of Valencenes in the time of the Siege fol. 84. b. Victor the Pope his death fol. 58. a Virgilius Pope his CoÌ„stancie fol. 200. a Vnitie can not be without a supreme head fol. 140. b. 141. a. 152. 153. a. Vniuersal Bishop truly attributed to the Pope fol. 185. b. 186. 187. 188. sequent Votaries maie not conueniently marrie by M. Iewel fol. 289. a. Vow breakers in what danger they stande fol. 278. a. Vow of Chastitie annexed to holy Orders fol. 291. a. Vow of Chastitie made in facte though no vvordes be spoken fol. 292. b. Vovve made in vvhat case marriage holdeth or holdeth not by the determination of the Churche fol. 294. b Vrspergensis set out by Melanchthon onely fol. 57. b. VV VVAldenses heresies fol. 102. b. VVedlockes il thing is inordinate luste fol. 283. b. VVickleff his heresies fol. 82. b. 63. a. VViues that couerted their vnfaithful husbandes fol. 61. b. 350. a. VVordes of God not written fol. 270. a. VVorkes hovv meritorious of infinite revvarde fol. 371. b. Faultes escaped in the printing Faulte leafe line Correction my 27. a. 27. may sor 38. a. 12. sory Golfridus 83. b. 25. Galfridus lustly 135. b. 23. lusty famofum 170. b. 9. fumosum to 179. b. 28. lut it out least 180. b. 28. leaft S. of 198. a. 19. of S. In the margent 202. a.  a note superfluous Liber hic D.M.N. Thomae Hardingi lectus approbatus est à viris Anglici idiomatis Theologiae peritissimis vt sine periculo imprimi publicari possit Quanquam alioqui ipse D. Hardingus mihi tà m probè notus est vt de eius cruditione fide prudentia nihil sit dubitandum Cunerus Petri Pastor S. Petri Louanij 21. Maij. An. 1568.
Defenders require vs to follow the example of S. Irenaeus in that he as they saie appealed oftentimes to the oldest Churches whiche had benne nearest to Christes time and whiche it was hard to beleeue that they had erred thus I saie Confut. â—â—4 a. Ye would seeme to be faine that we folowed the aduise of S. Irenaeus We are content with al our hartes And with Irenaeus we appeale to that Tradition Irenaeus lib 3. ca. 8. which is from the Apostles which as he saith is kepte in the Churches by Priestes that succeded them With Irenaeus leauing other Churches whose succession of Bishopes it were a long worke to reherse we require to haue recourse for trial of our Faith to the tradition of doctrine of the Romaine Churche which he termeth greatest oldest Idem lib. 3. cap. 3. best knowen to al founded and set vp by the twoo most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule We appeale to the Faith of that Churche taught abrode in the worlde and by successions of Bishoppes brought downe vnto vs. For to this Churche saith Irenaeus must al the Church of Christe repaire where so euer it be for that it is the chiefe of al and for that the tradition of the true doctrine whiche the Apostles lefte behind them is there faithfully kepte Wherfore if ye would after the counsel of Irenaeus resorte to Rome for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte you and vs and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine whiche hath continued by Successions of Bishoppes euen from Peter to Pius the fourth now Pope and would stand to the auctoritie of that See Apostolike al strife were ended we should be at accorde But we haue litle hope that ye wil folowe this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr whose bodie your brethren the Huguenotes of Fraunce villanously burned at Lions Anno Domini 1562. after it had rested there thirteen hundred yeres and more In al these wordes as thou seest reader I say not as M. Iewel beareth her Maiestie in hande I doo that we must learne to know the wil of God only at the Popes hande But I declare whether we may most safely resorte for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte vs and the Protestantes Whereunto M. Iewel hath not yet answered ne neuer shal be hable to answere though in the Defence he haue shuffled together a great heape of allegations nothing perteining to the present purpose as his custome is to doo and a great parte of my confutation there he hath cut of M. Iewel cutteth and mangleth the Confutation in infinite places leauing out wordes of greatest vveight and therby hath fowly mangled the same as for his aduantage he hath done in infinite places leauing out the matters whereunto he had not what reasonably to answere See the place Reader Defence pag. 701. and thou shalt finde my worde true Item there Iewel That in the Popes onely holinesse standeth the vnitie and safetie of the Churche Confut. 204. b. Harding If I had so said in a right sense it might wel be allowed Howbeit thus I said Confut. 204. b. As Christe gaue vnto S. Peter and his Successours for the benefite of his Churche a supreme auctoritie and power so for the same Churches sake for whose loue he deliuered him selfe to death by petition made to his Father he obteined for him and his Successours Ioan. 14. Luc. 22. the Priuiledge of this Supreme and most excellent Grace that their Faith should neuer faile In consideration of whiche singular priuiledge obteined by Christe and graunted to the See Apostolike and to none other S. Gregorie rebuketh Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople so much as one that presumptuously vsurped that new name of vniuersal Bishop against the Statutes of the Gospel and against the decrees of the Canons To coÌ„clude if either S. Gregorie or any other maÌ„ should saie that the Churche dependeth vpon one man he might seeme to saie truthe meaning rightly and that not alone nor without good authoritie For such a saying we finde vttered by S. Hierome Hieron Contra Luciferian The saftie of the Churche saith he dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest priest who if he haue not auctoritie peerlesse and aboue al other there wil be so many schismes in the Churche as there be priestes Which peerlesse auctoritie aboue al other as S. Hierome in that place doth attribute vnto the Bishop of euery Dioces directly so consequently to Peters successour to whom it was said Feed my shepe Iohan. 21. For by what reason in ech Dioces it behoueth one priest to be highest ouer other Priestes by the same and in like proportioÌ„ no lesse it behoueth that in the whole Church one Bishop be highest ouer other Bishoppes I meane for auoiding of schismes This reason is not ne can not of M. Iewel be auoided Of other thinges impertinent he bringeth vs great stoare out of other men in the Defence Defence pag. 452. but to this very reason wherein standeth the pointe touching the maintenance and preseruation of vnitie he saith nothing Item there Iewel That vvho so euer is diuided from the Pope must be iudged an Heretique and that vvithout the obedience of him there is no hope of Saluation Confut. 306. b. Harding Who so euer is diuided not onely from the Pope but also from any other Catholique Bishoppe in faith ought to be iudged an Heretique As touching obedience Iohan. 21. whereas by Christe he is commaunded to Feede his Lambes and his sheepe and thereby hath commission to gouerne them how can he be saued from the rauening woolues who through disobedience refuseth to come into that Folde and to be fedde and guided of that high Pastor I confesse that in certaine cases besides faith a man may disobey the Pope and yet not be remoued from all hope of saluation My wordes for whiche you make so muche a doo are these vttered vpon occasion of your Apologie Confut. fol. 306. b. Ye put vs in minde to consider how that your selues are those priuate hil Aulters and darke groues For ye be they that stoppe the people from the commoÌ„ Temple of Christendom the Catholique Church out of which is no saluation the head whereof sitteth in Peters Chaire at Rome Item there Iewel And yet as though it vvere not sufficient for him so vainely to sooth a man in open errours he telleth vs also sadly and in good earnest that the same Bishop is not onely a Bishop but also a kinge Confut. fol. 80. a. 305. b. Harding Neither haue I in any place soothed the Pope in open Errours but haue graunted that certaine Popes had their Errours either before they were called to that roume or also afterwarde holding them priuately and as priuate Doctours That the Pope erreth how is it denied But that by any publique decree geuen out to be holden and obserued of the Churche they euer mainteined or gaue assent or
from his Prince the child from his father and the wife from her husband What is it then wherein your Predecessours if they had now liued and had seene it would not haue benne so wilful as we are They should haue seene in you Diuisions sectes factions pride wantonesse fleshly libertie crueltie murders treasons rebellions Churche robbinges and to be short al impietie and contempte of God Pride accompained with malice couetise and lecherie was the foundation A foule mouthed Frier as euer liued on the earth and a Nūne incestuously coupled together was the building that rose vp of your doctrine which to this daie goeth forward with like increase And yet if your Predecessours had seene that which we see they would forsooth haue ben astonned to see the heauenly fruites which these men bring foorth Iewel To be short vve succede the bisshops that haue ben before our dayes vve are elected consecrated confirmed and admitted as they vvere Harding Here is no lye at al. That I may speake of no other difference the Bishops whom you succeede were al confirmed by the bishop of Rome and so is none of you Iewel .. If they vvere deceiued in any thing vve succede them in the place but not in errour Harding By their place is meant specially their doctrine and beleefe which seing you haue not you are not their successour no more then Paulus Samosatenus the heretique was the Successour in S. Peters chaire in Antioche no more then Gregorius the Arian was S. Markes successour in Alexandria no more then al the Bisshops of Christendome are to be accompted the successours of the Heathnish Priestes which in the same Cities before worshipped Idols It is the Doctrine and place together which maketh the Succession and not the walles of the towne Churche or house alone Iewel They vvere our Predecessours but not the rules and standardes of our faith Harding As long as they remained in that vnitie of Doctrine which they receiued of the Apostles or of the Apostolike Churches as Tertullian doth wel shew so long they are presidentes and their continual Succession is a good rule and standard of our faith For they are pillers of the Church the Successours of the Apostles Luc. 10. whom he that heareth heareth Christ Now when those that breake the Vnitie which was in the Church before come to sit in any bishops Chaire they in deede are no presidentes no rules nor standardes of our Faith bicause the Apostle biddeth vs obserue and beware of them 2. Thess 3. that walke inordinatly and make dissensions For the Church of God hath no suche custome to striue 1. Cor. 11. and to resiste at once al the Bishops of the whole Church as Martin Luther did Iewel 131. Or rather to set apart al comparison of persons the doctrine of Christ this day M. Harding succedeth your doctrine as the daye succedeth the night as the light succedeth darknesse and as the truth succedeth errour Harding VVhat is the daie vvhat is the night in M. Ievvelles iudgement That is to say your doinges and proceedinges are the daye the light and the truth but the Catholique faith whiche we teache and al our predecessours in al the worlde haue euer taught is the night the darkenesse and errour But sir if your doctrine be daye or light and ours night or darkenesse how chaunceth it that our doctrine was euer openly seene in the whole worlde from the Apostles time vnto these daies in so many Bishoppes throughout al nations teaching al one thing and yours was not sene by your owne confession for nine hundred yeres together This was a long night pardy M. Iewel Is it the nature of the light not to be seene Who sawe not our Altars our external Priestes and our Sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ in the whole world from East to Weast Malac. 1. as Malachias prophecied and the euent shewed But your no Aulters your no external Priestes and your no sacrificing of Christes body briefly the Imaginatiue face of your Negatiue Religion or rather of your no Religion who could see before that now of late ye pulled downe our Aulters to shewe howe ye had no Aulters and before violently ye bannished our Priestes and draue them out of their Churches to shewe howe ye had no Priestes and denied Christes Real Presence to shew how ye had no Sacrifice Our Munkes and Friers from S. Ihon Baptistes dayes and from the tyme of those that liued a very holy life in Egypte frō the time of S. Marke the Euangeliste vnto the time of S. Basil in the East of S. Augustine S. Benedicte S. Frauncis and S. Dominike in the Weast had replenished Christendom with Cloisters and Monasteries to those our Monkes I say al the worlde beareth witnesse But your no monkes Renegates and Apostates liued in Turkie or in Hel for in the landes of Christendom no such doctrine shined none suche was heard of whiche should auouche that it is not lawful by Gods grace to make a vowe that a man wil renounce the riches and pleasures of the worlde and liue continently vnder the obedience of a spiritual Father If your doctrine be the light and the daye howe commeth it to passe that not so muche as one Churche or chappel in the whole earth can be named where before these fiftie yeres it was vnlawful to occupie holy Chrisme in bishopping of childerne or to saye Masse or to teache the seuen Sacramentes to praie for the dead to celebrate the Churche Seruice in the Latine tongue to desire the Apostles Martyrs and the other Saintes to praie for vs al which thinges now you accompt for vnlawful Can the light be so darkened that it should be vnknowen vnto you whether ye had any auncestours at al or no We can if neede were set forth a rolle of our Pastours and Bishops from this daye vpward vnto S. Peters time in such sort as you shal name no one time of whiche we are not hable to saye vnto you these many prelates and Pastours were knowen to preache Christes gospel at once in diuers nations Marcke M. Iewel what I saye to you and consider of it wel For herein your vtter Confusion appeareth that ye are not hable to bring the continuance of your doctrine vp vnto S. Peters time without interruption albeit you should be bounde to name for euery fiftie yeres in Order but one man in the whole worlde at once Thinke of it with al your witte and geue me an instance There are since Christes time fifteen hūdred yeres passed Geue me for euery hundred yeres two Catholike men one liuing after the other whom you may iustifie to haue ben of your faith holding that doctrine whiche you holde and so geue me in al but thirtye menne liuing and knowen to haue lyued eche of them about fiftie yeres one after the other and for my part I wil release you of your bond of subscription Such a lightsome Churche ye haue that
al to be folowed in your deedes For he that dissenteth from you Doctrine is either an Heretique or a Schismatique These wordes being wel and duely considered of I reporte me to thine indifferent iudgement discrete Reader what M. Iewel can seme to any wise man to haue wonne by Iohannes Sarisburiensis He accuseth the vices of the Romaine Clergie and of some Popes them selues We also accuse the same Their euil deedes be not to be folowed saith he We saie the same and praie God to amende them Scribes and Pharisees sate in the Church of Rome said the people in his time Were it true yet were they to be obeied touching doctrine and to be beleeued bicause they sate in the Chaire of Peter as Christ cōmaunded the Scribes and Pharisees of the Iewes to be obeied and thinges to be done and kepte whiche they said bicause they succeeded Moyses and sate in Moyses Chaire Howbeit what the people of Rome of Italie and of Germanie said of the Pope at that time it ought the lesse to be regarded bicause they spake vpon grudge conceiued against him the Romaines Platina in vita Hadriani ◠for that as Platina witnesseth he denied them their ernest request which was that they might liue freely vnder the gouernement of the Consulles and be exempted from their subiection to the Church the Italians and Germains for that they were muche vexed with warres by William the King of Sicilia and Frederike the firste Emperour from whiche vexation and troubles they saw they should haue benne deliuered if the Pope woulde haue benne content to suffer the Landes of the Churche to be inuaded and taken awaie by those Princes Euen so in these daies the Popes be the worse spoken of and finde the lesse good wil at many mennes handes in some partes of Christendome bicause they can not be induced to allow and confirme the possession of certaine ecclesiastical Landes which haue ben taken frō the Church by vnlawful meanes in such wise as they them selues would haue it allowed and confirmed To be short agree with vs M. Iewel vnto the doctrine which the Church of Rome teacheth where the Succession is certaine wherunto your owne doctor Ioannes Sarisburiensis leadeth you and we wil agree with you in reprouing the vices and faultes of that See the proufe of which for a great part of them for ought ye can shewe is vncertaine Would God ye would once consider how sclender and weake the Argumentes ye make against the catholique Faith are which alwaies ye deduce à moribus ad doctrinam that is from reproufe of manners to the reproufe of doctrine Iewel Pag. 132. This is M. Hardings holy succession though faith faile yet Succession must holde Harding Nay syr Succession doth holde that faith maye not faile For you haue not proued by any one example that faith did euer faile in the Churche of Rome In the Church I saye which consisteth of the Pope and of a college and an assemblie of graue Bishops and priestes professing them selues the faith and teaching it others In that open assemblie neuer was there false religiō decred or taught whereas so many heresies haue ben not fewer then a hundred and so many Archeheretikes of whom some haue ben in the other Patriarchal Sees but in Rome neuer was there an Archeheretike or any Pope who in Councel or Consistorie decreed or confirmed any heresie to be admitted To him that knoweth the ecclesiastical histories and conferreth the See of Rome with al other Churches it is such a miracle as therby God hath witnessed that Succession to be the Rocke of the faith In so much that the Bishops of the prouince of Tarracon in Spaine wrote thus vnto Pope Hilarius In Tom. 1. Concil epist 2. Ad fidem recurrimus Apostolico orè laudatam inde responsa quaerentes vnde nihil errore nihil praesumptione sed pontificali totum deliberatione praecipitur We resort vnto the faith praysed by the mouth of the Apostle seeking answers from thence whence nothing is commaunded by errour nothing by presumption but al by bishoply deliberation Iewel For vnto the succession God hath bound the holy Ghost Harding No but vnto the holy Ghost The holy Ghost causeth the Successiō to abide faithful God hath bound the Succession For he causeth the Succession to abide faithful bicause he causeth it to follow the inspiration of the holy Ghost that it may so be knowen for euer certainly true in the chiefe Apostles Chaire and in the fellowship abiding with him Christ saith he that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me I am with you al dayes vntil the worldes ende Math. 28. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Luc. 22. and thou being once conuerted confirme thy brethern feede my sheepe Ioan. 21. feede my lambes I wil beseeche my father Ioan. 14. and he shal geue you an other conforter that he remaine with you for euer 16. the spirite of truth he shal teach you al thinges and al truth The Romaine faith is preached in the whole worlde Roma 1. Iewel For lacke of this Succession for that in our Sees in the Churches of England vve find not so many Idolatours Necromancers Heretikes Aduouterers Churcherobbers Periured persones Mankillers Renegates Monsters Scribes and Pharisees as vve may easily finde in the Church of Rome therefore I trovve M. Harding saith vve haue no Succession vve are no Bishops vve haue no Church at al. Harding Your Church of England hath yet scant continued so many weekes as the Churche of Rome hath continued yeres But if it had passed ouer such times of persecution as Rome hath if it had ben so assaulted by al sortes of enemies as wel within as without as wel with prosperitie as aduersitie I trow your Church would haue had before this as many Idolatours Necromancers Heretiques Aduouterers and such others by you named as the Church of Rome hath had Bishops And certainely already it hath had mo sortes of Heretikes and that within these xx yeres then Rome hath had euen by your owne accompte euil men within these fiften hundred yeres Idolatrie annexed vnto Heresie For your beginning progresse and the whole profession of your life is nothing but heresie whereunto Idolatrie is euermore annexed For an heretike doth alwaies worship his owne conceit and phantasie for truth and whereas God is truth he worshippeth his phantasie for God which is Idolatrie If the pope committed any faulte by frailtie he defended it not as you mainteine in open pulpites the breache of laudable and godly vowes and the marriages of consecrated persons who haue absteined from marriage euer since the Apostles tyme whose marriages saith S. Hierome be not so much Aduouteries Aduersus Iouin li. 1. as Inceste But in the number of mo then two hundred Popes within fiften hundred yeres you haue falsely numbred sixe or seuen as Heretikes whereas you can not denie but there haue ben in the same
that there is no succession in doctrine Now I saie ronne ouer al the Bisshops of Rome and you can saie of neuer a one this man coÌ„ming into his Predecessours See did oppugne his doctrine or preached with the Churche of Romes contentation against that which was in vse before So that in Rome al thinges are euen at this day concerning faith as S. Peter leafte them For euery man hath agreed in outward Decree senteÌ„ce and profession with al the predecessours and successours Iewel Pag. 132. S. Bernard saith Quid prodest si canonicè eligantur In concil Remen non canonicè viuant VVhat auaileth it if they be chosen in order and liue out of order Harding It auaileth nothing to the euil liuer but yet it auaileth muche to him that obeieth the good and true doctrine of the euil teacher Iewel So saith S. Augustine Ipsum characterem multi lupi Cont. Donatist lib. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur caâ—es Character vvhat it signifieth in the Sacraments lupis imprimunt The outvvarde marke or right of a bisshop many geue to vvolues and be vvolues them selues Harding By Character is not meant an outward marke but rather an inwarde marke and print which through the receiuing of certaine Sacramentes is imprinted in the soules of them who receiue them of whiche sorte are Baptisme Confirmation and holy Orders And those sacramentes being once receiued caÌ„ not be repeated or be againe receiued of the same person For the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud although it be an outward signe yet it leaueth not any Character or suche inward print in the soule as may be no more repeated But letting that errour passe of the true interpretation of this worde Character I graunt that Heretikes may baptize heretikes euen without the Churche and the Baptisme shal stand although it be vnlawfully ministred What maketh that against the Suceession of Bishops It rather proueth that seing the Sacramentes may be ministred if not to saluation of them that are of discretion yet truly and really without the true Churche there must be an other rule taken to know the true Church by besides the administration of Sacramentes And that true and certaine rule is the perpetual Succession of the See Apostolike Iewel Pag. 132. Therefore the auncient father Irenaus geueth vs this good counsel Eis qui sunt in Ecclesia presbyteris obedire oportet Iren. lib. 4. ca. 43. qui successionem habent ab Apostolis qui cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secundùm beneplacitum patris acceperunt It becommeth vs to obey those Priestes in the Churche vvhich haue their succession from the Apostles and together vvith the Succession of their bishoprikes according to the good vvil of God the Father haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truthe Harding Al this maketh against you M. Iewel For seing you can shew no such Priestes hauing their Succession from the Apostles and hauing receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth whom ye doo obeye it is certaine that ye haue not the gifte of the truthe among you On the other side seing we haue Priestes that is to say Bishoppes of Rome who are also Priestes which haue their SuccessioÌ„ from the chiefe and most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule and seing such Priestes and Bishops keeping stil the same faith and doctrine from man to man haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth according to the good wil of God the Father doubtelesse the vndoubted marke of the truth is with vs only and not with you at al who haue no Succession at al of any Priestes and much lesse of any suche Priestes that succede lineally from the Apostles them selues Iewel 132. S. Cyprian being likevvise charged for dissenting from his predecessours Lib. 2. epist 3. ansvvereth thus Si quis de antecessoribus meis c. If any of my predecessours haue not obserued and kepte the same that our Lorde hath taught vs both by his example and also by his coÌ„maundement his simplicitie may be pardoned but we if we doo the like can hope for no pardon being nowe admonished and instructed of our Lorde Harding Cough vp man it wil choke you Phy. vvhat a fowle corruption is this Lib. 2. epist 3. if you let it tarry within your throte Here is but halfe the bone there is yet in S. Cyprian no ful point it foloweth in the same sentence Vt calicem Dominicum vino mixtum secundùm quod Dominus obtulit offeramus We can hope for no pardon who are now admonished and instructed of our Lorde that we should offer our Lordes chalice mixed with wine accordingly as our Lorde offered the same Either M. Iewel tooke this saying of S. Cyprian vpon the Germaine credite as he found it noted in their bookes and then his false brethren deceiued him or els he wrote it out of S. Cyprian himselfe and then his studie and wil was to deceiue vs. He would ful gladly haue geuen vs an authoritie that we might forsake the example of our Predecessours but he was loth we should see the thing wherewith the authoritie was exemplified For if at any time he say al he is sure to speake against him selfe and no wonder because he speaketh against the truth and euerie good saying euermore agreeth with the trtuh First he corrupteth S. Cyprian in putting in meis for nostra my predecessours in stede of our predecessours For S. Cyprian speaketh not of his owne Succession but of what soeuer Priest or Bishoppe that liued before his time Againe S. Cyprian spake not of any such custome as had ben generally vsed of al Bishops for then it had ben of ful authoritie but of that which some one man vsed priuatly and without keeping the lawe of Succession And therefore S. Cyprian said Si quis if any man Thirdly the thing he spake of was that some were said to offer water alone in our Lordes supper and not wine withal Now saith he if any before our time haue vsed to offer water and not wine mingled with water wel he may be pardoned by our Lordes mercie but we that are admonished and instructed to offer our Lordes chalice mingled with wine that is to say consisting not of water alone but of water and wine mingled together we caÌ„ not be pardoned except we mingle water with wine and so do offer our Lordes Chalice as he him selfe did offer it Nowe applie this geare Christian Reader to our new brethrens deedes Do they offer our Lordes Chalice at al Or do they graunt that our Lord in his Supper offered it Do they mingle water with wine at the time of consecrating the mysteries If they do neither of both what folie yea what madnesse was it for M. Iewel to bring foorth these wordes of S. Cyprian thereby to accuse him selfe and his owne Communion as not obseruing that whiche our Lorde commaunded to be obâ—â—rued It is a worlde to see how these men applye the witnesses of
seing we are at variance let vs resorte to the very beginning and to the Original which is our Lordes worde and the Apostolike Tradition This was wel said But the Apostolike Tradition was so as Pope Steuen defended and not so as S. Cyprian woulde haue had it And this M. Iewel neither doo you nor can you denie For your selfe I trow wil not allow that they should be baptized againe in your owne Churche that haue ben before baptized in an other Churche which ye accompte for false heretical or schismatical What meant you then to consecrate S. Cyprians errour and to allege his authoritie therein where it ought not to be admitted and allowed But with you the ouersightes of the Fathers the errours of the Greekes the sayinges of heretiques the examples of Schismatiques the obiections of Schoolemen and Canonistes and the pelfe of Gloses is alwaies good stuffe Iewel S. Cyprian saith If the Pipes of the conduite vvhich before ranne vvith abundance happen to faile do vve not vse to searche to the head Harding Yeas if they could faile But in Christes Churche the Pipes can not faile The Pipes of the CoÌ„duite of Christes Church can neuer faile Math. 28. bicause Christe promised to be with his Apostles and thereby with their Successours al daies vntil the worldes ende If the Pipes of Christes grace and of his Churche faile to runne any one daie then is not Christe that daie with his Pastours and teachers and consequently he is not al daies or euery daie with them But if his worde can not be false then the Pipes neuer failed ne shall not faile and that was wel seene in S. Cyprians question For although they in Afrike had cut of the Pipes by force in changing the former custome and Tradition yet in Rome the Pipes ranne stil and therefore Christe was stil with the Bishops of Rome and with the other Bishops who remained in his Communion Example of agreeing in coÌ„munion vvhere is disagreeing in opinion Yea Christe was also with S. Cyprian bicause S. Cyprian departed not from Pope Steuens Communion But he was with S. Cyprian not in that question wherein he dissented from the Pope but in that he consented and agreed with the Pope For he both dissented concerning the particulare case and consented concerning the general bond of vnitie wishing to haue his owne sentence followed but if it were not followed as it was not content to yelde to his brethren rather then to breake of and to make a Schisme For thus he endeth that epistle which he wrote in that argument to Iubaianus Cyprianus Ad IubaianuÌ„ de Haereticis baptizaÌ„d Si quis putatur contentiosus esse nos talem consuetudinem noÌ„ habemus neque Ecclesia Dei. Seruatur à nobis patienter firmiter charitas animi collegij honor vinculum fidei et concordia Sacerdotij If any man be thought to be geuen to strife and debate we haue no such custome nor the Churche of God The Charitie of minde the honour of the societie the bonde of faith and the concorde of Priesthoode is both patiently and firmely keepte of vs. If M. Iewel if before him Luther and Caluine if al the rest of these Gospellers had none otherwise dissented from the Pope and the whole college of Bishops then S. Cyprian did they might haue ben saued as he vndoubtedly is a glorious Martyr in heauen But they imagined the Pipes whereby grace faith and al other giftes are deriued from Christ vnto vs to haue ben broken of for the space of these nine huÌ„dred yeres past deuised with them selues how they might repaire to the head and so might fetche the watter of life vnto vs by new Conduites and Pipes But they were deceiued For after Christe did once set the Pipes a ronning they neuer ceassed nor shal ceasse to ronne til the day of iudgement For the holy Ghost is promised to abide with the Apostles Ioan. 14. Esai 59. The B. of Rome is the successour of Peter Cyprian lib. 4. epi. 2 ad antâ—nianum Luc. 22. and their Successours in aeternum for euer And their Successours are the Bishops And as the Chiefe of the Apostles was S. Peter so S. Cyprian saith of Fabianus who was Bishop of Rome two hundred yeres after S. Peter Cùm Fabiani locus id est cùm locus Petri gradus Cathedrae sacerdotalis vacaret when the place of Fabian that is to say when the place of Peter and the steppe or degree of the Priestly Chaire was voide So that as Peters faith was most specially prayed for and that not only for his owne sake but to the ende he should strengthen and confirme his brethren euen so was euery Bishop of Romes Faith prayed for to the ende euery one might strengthen and confirme his brethren whiche are al Bishoppes in the truthe of the Faith and in the Gouernement of the flocke That Succession of the Bishop of Rome Augu. in in psalmuÌ„ coÌ„t parteÌ„ Donati and of the See of Peter is the Rocke which as S. Augustine saith the proude gates of Hel do not ouercome So he said eleuen hundred yeres past so vntil this howre the thing it selfe proueth so doo we beleeue that it shal be perfourmed by him that promised it vntil the worldes ende bicause it is the Rocke whiche shal euer confesse the true Faith and feede the sheepe of Christ and staye vp the howse of God and confirme al the faithful that leane vnto it Thus haue I confuted M. Iewel your treatise of Succession The Pipe of Christes doctrin hath coÌ„tinued in the catholike Churche onely which I tooke in hande specially to treate of bicause it sheweth most euidently that ye haue no true Churche bicause ye can shew no Pipe or Conduicte which from Christ vntil your Sectes hath stil continued ronning or hath stil deriued his doctrine and grace vnto them of your side It is the Catholike Church whiche you cal the Papistical Church which hath that Pipe and can euidently shew where the streame hath gonne and how it hath ben mainteined from age to age from generation to generation yea from man to man without any interruption Isai 62. Matth. 5. Philipp 2. Matt. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Esai 59. 1. Timo. 3. Such should the state of the Churche be according to Gods worde where watche men should neuer holde their peace where the citie built vpon the hil can not be hid where the children of light shine like sterres in the middest of the infidelles where Christe is al dayes vnto the worldes ende where the holy Ghoste is for euer teaching al truthe where the piller and sure staye of truthe is visibly seene as with whiche menne be conuersant in this worlde as S. Paule saith where to be shorte Ioan. 21. Christes sheepe are fed of Peter al abiding within the vnitie of his one Folde in this worlde thence and thence only to be transferred vnto the glorious Pasture of life
his quotations to be in my said two Bookes whiche are not there in deede altogether in that order and meaning as he vntruly hath alleged them I proue his dealing herein partely to be agreable to his other false demeanour and partely that good and iust causes there were why I should writing against him vse suche order of language Furthermore bicause he woulde the great and manifolde Vntruthes with whiche I charged him to seeme no Vntruthes at al but that al is the Gospel what so euer commeth from his Mouthe and whereas for proufe thereof he hath set forth a View of his Vntruthes the least of al that he could espie by me noted against him and pretendeth to iustifie the same his least Vntruthes in the said View I haue made an answere to that View of Vntruthes and there doo shewe manifestly specially in the chiefe pointes where errour is most perilous that he was truely and iustly charged with those Vntruthes and that for ought he hath yet said in Defence of them he remaineth stil chargeable with the same as before This muche I haue perfourmed in the first Booke After this in foure bookes folowing I detecte his Errours Lies Cauilles shiftes Sclaunders and sundrie vntrue matters founde in the firste and seconde parte of his Defence And in respecte thereof I cal the Treatie A Detection of sundrie foule errours lies sclaunders c. At length hauing tried by very certaine experience and exacte view of the whole Booke that there was no ende of lying what place so euer in reading my eie lighted vppon I thought it most profitable and most agreable with my profession to let passe thinges of smal importance the handeling of whiche serued him specially to scoffe to vtter vile matter againste the Churche and to fil vp his Booke in tended at the beginning to be made greate and to treate of the Articles of Doctrine in defence of the Truthe and to confute what he hath brought to the contrarie Among whiche Articles of doctrine of some I haue treated briefly as being alreadie treated of in my Confutation and otherwheres of some at good length and with more diligence as of Succession and of the vnlawful Marriages of Priestes and al other Votaries wherein he is very large and copious of Doctours sayinges of al sortes but vtterly destitute of any one saying that maketh cleerely for his parte In the ende I doo most euidently disproue and refel what he was hable to bring for Defence of two pointes which he is not ashamed to affirme seming to me the one very false the other very sclaunderous The first is as he auoucheth them that matters of faith and Ecclesiastical causes are to be iudged by the Ciuile Magistrate The other is that the Papistes haue taught that simple Fornication is no sinne How weake proufes he bringeth for the one and for the other and yet how shamelesly he goeth about to prooue them by conference of bothe our Treaties it shal appeare Withal there I haue added a Comparison of Errours in mistaking names of menne bookes Chapters c. with whiche M. Iewel chargeth me and I him Matters let passe vvith treating vvhereof the Defence is grovven to a Huge Volume Thus haue I declared in fewe the Summe as it were and Order of this Treatie As for sundrie other matters as of forged Scriptures of the doctrine of Deuilles so he calleth the forbidding of Priestes Monkes Friers and Nunnes to marrie of the fruites of single life whereof he laith out great stoare of filthy sayinges of S. Iames Epistle whether it be Canonical Scripture of sundrie ancient Traditions now growen out of vse of the Fourmes and Accidentes whereat he scoffeth like a Vice plaier of the number of the Sacraments of the Churche which we defende to be seuen he affirmeth to be but two or els so many as the thinges be vnto which the name of Sacrament is by any Writer applied which are very many of the Faith of Infantes of their new found Imaginatiue Faith or rather phantastical Imaginatiō that eateth the bodie and drinketh the bloud of Christ of the Popes Dispensations of dissensions among the Fathers of Nominales and Reales of Thomistes and Scotistes of diuersitie of religious persons Apparel wherein he saith they put great holinesse of the variance betwen the Lutherās and the Zuinglians of the fable of Dame Iohane the woman Pope of the Marble Image lying in the high way at Rome of the stoole of easement of Porphyrie stoane at Lateran of Athenes and Rome whether they were Vniuersities in the time this Dame Iohane is feyned to haue liued in of the vicious life of Petrus Aloisius Duke of Parma and Placentia of Iohn Diazius death of the slaughter of the Boures of Germanie that tooke weapons against the nobilitie there prouoked by the preaching of Luther and his scholers of Constantines Donation of Poison ministred in the Sacrament as he reporteth feined fables for stories of great soothe of the abomination of desolation of the state of the Church of Rome of Antichrist of the mistaking of Cardinal Hosius of their pretensed burning of the Scriptures of S. Augustine the Apostle of the English Nation that he was a wicked man of Priestes keeping of Concubines of Images of Latine Praiers and Churche Seruice of Comparison of learning betwene the Catholiques and the Protestantes of Rome whether it be Babylon of summoning of Councelles of the Stewes in Rome whereof gladly he vttereth muche talke of kissing the Popes foote of the Popes hurling of Franciscus Daldulus fast tied in chaines vnder his table there to gnaw boanes with his Dogges of the Popes Bridle and Stirop to be holden by Princes of Pope Hildebrandes surmised wicked deedes as they fable of the Popes treadding on the Emperours necke of the Pope whether he be euer holy of the Popes Exactions of the Cheast in the Popes bosom whether the Pope be God of the Popes power feined to be ouer Angels whether the Pope can commit Simonie whether the Pope be King of Kinges whether the Pope be aboue general Councels whether the Pope maie erre or no whether the Pope be a Kinge Of these and of a great many moe suche matters whereof some be lothesom some be fabulous vaine and friuolous some be false sclaunderous and spiteful some blasphemous some alreadie sufficiently treated of briefly al tending vnto the contempt of the Catholique Religion as M. Iewel handleth them in which matters he hath vttered the stoare of his learning Of these I saie I haue said nothing much disaduantaging my selfe thereby and the common cause which I defend for so much as in the making vp of his great Booke with heaping together these ministerly matters he hath vttered as he doth euery where els good stoare of most euident and grosse Lies of which his owne frendes and best fauourers in case thei were detected would be ashamed These forenamed be the thinges which I haue briefly handled and these other and
others whiche he thought best to conceele and dissemble One thing good Reader it behoueth thee much to be warned of in case thou desire to stande an vpright vmpeere betwen M. Iewel and me Vpon what places so euer thou shalt happen to light in which he shal seeme to haue any good aduantage against me or against the Doctrine of the Catholique Churche passe not them ouer lightly weigh wel both our groundes examine both our allegations truste not to ought that is laid forth by either of vs presently but resort to the Bookes whence euery thing is taken Doing so thou shalt most certainely perceiue whether of vs both vseth more truth Doubtlesse in such places thou shalt seldō it were much so saie neuer find him to allege the wordes whereby he pretēdeth any colour of aduantage without some false sleight or other If thou desire to vnderstand this by some examples consider I praie thee what great a doo he maketh about the name of Vniuersal Bishop Vniuersal Bishop As he handleth that matter if a man wil beleeue him al thinges seeme to be plaine on his side Defence 120. The Coūcel of Carthage saith he decreed by expresse wordes that the Bishop of Rome should not be called the Vniuersal Bishop And behold Reader the confidēce that he hath in this cause which he sheweth with these wordes speaking vnto me This you saie is forged and falsified and is no part of that Conucel For indifferēt trial both of the truth ād of the falshed herein I besech you behold the very wordes of the Councel euen as they are alleged by your owne Doctour Gratian. These they are Prima Sedi◠Episcopus c. Let not the Bishoppe of any of the first Sees be called the Prince of Priestes Dist 99. Primae or the highest Priest or by any like name but onely the Bishoppe of the first See But let not the Bishoppe of Rome him selfe be called the Vniuersal Bishoppe c. Now M. Harding compare our wordes and the Councelles wordes together We saie none otherwise but as the Councel saith The Bishop of Rome him selfe ought not to be called the vniuersal Bishop Herein we doo neither adde nor minis he but reporte the wordes plainely as we finde them If you had lookte better on your booke and would haue tried this matter as you saie by your learning ye might wel haue reserued these vnciuile reproches of falshed to your selfe and haue spared your crying of shame vpō this Defender Here is muche a doo as thou feest Reader and al standeth vpon falshed as I said at the first in my Confutation We striue not for the name of Vniuersal Bishop neither hath the Pope Challenged that title Yet these menne haue neuer donne with Vniuersal Bishop The whole matter is soone answered These wordes vniuersalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur Concil Carthag 3 Cap. 26. The Bishop of Rome ought not to be called the vniuersal Bishop these wordes I saie be not the wordes of the thirde Councel of Carthage nor in the Greeke nor in the Latine but the wordes of Gratian and they stande for the Summe of that parte of the distinction whiche there foloweth And thereof M. Iewel was not ignorant as it appeareth by his owne wordes in the same place Howbeit were it true that Gratian had ignorantly added them to the Councel as wordes of the Coūcel what learned man trusteth Gratian a man not greatly trusted in respect of sundrie his allegations when it is easy to see the Original For this I referre the Reader to the 39. Chapter of the third Booke of this Treatie fol. 184. b. Perusing that I haue answered to this point there thou shalt fully vnderstand how falsly M. Iewel hath dealte therein and how litle cause he had so to triumphe For neither hath the Councel any suche woordes at al nor speaketh it there so much as one worde of the Bishop of Rome nor hath Gratian put those wordes as a testimonie of the Councel but as the Summe of that parte of the 99. Distinction which immediatly foloweth As wel might M. Iewel haue said that those other wordes there placed vnde Pelagius secundus omnibus Episcopis had ben the wordes of that Councel He that knoweth Gratians manner of writing can not but either laugh at M. Iewelles ignorance or maruaile at his impudencie To proue that it is lawful for a man to marrie a wife being in holy Orders The example of Eupsychius he allegeth the example of one Eupsychius who was a Laie Gentleman of Caesaria the chiefe Citie in Cappadocia and in a time of persecution suffred Martyrdom soone after that he had benne married Now most falsly he corrupteth the reporter of the Storie and maketh this Eupsychius a Bishop that it might appeare to the ignorant that one had married a wife after he had benne made a Bishop which would haue serued our married Superintendentes purpose gaily For yet after so many yeres searche they can not bring vs forth so much as one cleare example of the ancient Churche that euer there was any Bishop or Priest married after that degree and holy Order taken With such vncleane conueiance their vncleane treacherie is defended Defence 176. Cassio li. 6. cap. 14. His wordes be these Cassiodorus writeth thus In illo tempore ferunt Martyrio vitam finisse Eupsychium Caesariensem Episcopum ducta nuper vxore dum adhuc quasi sponsus esse videretur At that time they saie Eupsychius the Bishoppe of Caesaria died in Martyrdome hauing married a wife a litle before being yet in manner a newe married man Beholde Reader the falshod of this man First contrarie to his custome elswhere he leaueth the Greeke fonteine where this Storie was First written and goeth to the riuer of the olde translation in many places not most exactly answering the Greeke And why did he so Forsooth bicause if he had alleged Sozomenus the Greeke writer his falshod had benne fowly bewraied For he nameth this Eupsychius expressely Eupsychius a laie-man by M. Iewels forgerie made a Bishop to proue the Mariages of Priestes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as much to saie Eupsychius one of the Lordes or one of the Nobilitie of the Citie of Caesaria in Cappadocia Then bicause the Tripartite Storie of Cassiodorus setting foorth hath not so expressely that he was a nobleman of Caesaria M. Iewel was so bolde as to falsifie the place and to putte in of his owne this woorde Episcopum to helpe his matter and so corrupting his authour maketh him to cal him Eupsychium Caesariensem Episcopum Eupsychius the Bishoppe of Caesaria Thus he taketh vpon him to make him a Bishoppe who was a Laie man as wel a Bishoppe as he him selfe is that it might appeare to the vnlearned that a Bisshoppe married a wife after he was Bisshoppe Fol. 302. 318. See what I haue said hereto in this Treatie where I answer his false stuffe touching
Iohn is said to haue erred was onely touching the soules of the iuste and perfit who were fully purged before their departure hence in quibus nihil erat purgabile cuÌ„ de hoc seculo decesserunt as it is shewed in Pope Benedictus Decretale before mencioned or were purged elswhere Defence pag. 617. after the separation from their bodies So that by this Purgatorie is not taken awaie at al as your skoffing tale that liketh you so wel pretendeth it to be Neither were the Heretiques that of S. Augustine are called Arabici the first Authours of this errour as you saie but the Armenians and Grecians if we maie beleeue Guido M. Iew. Vntruly attributeth that to Pope Iohn 22. whiche was written of Iohn 23. Now touching that you haue alleged out of the Councel of Constance in Appendite as you cal it I maruel with what face ye bring it in And what a great falshed is it to put in your booke the name of Pope Iohn the. 22. for Iohn the. 23. who was not borne within a hundred yeres after Iohn the. 22. The name of this Iohn the 23. was before he tooke vpon him to be Pope Balthazar de Cossa as there ye haue it declared Neither was it certaine that he helde that detestable opinion touching the Death of the body and Soule together it was but brought into the Councel of Constance in a bille of complainte conteining many other heinous Articles against him whiche were not proued It was a matter of Diffamation it was not of probation as by the bill it selfe it is expressed For there ye finde these wordes In Appendice Concilij Constantien The said Iohn the. 23. was of these thinges diffamed greuously before the clergie and the people Therefore it is thus said there of his Acousers Denunciant dicunt ponunt si necesse erit probare intendunt c. They denounce saie and put and if it shal be necessarie they intende to proue They that accuse and intende to proue if neede be haue not yet proued And God forbid al thinges shoulde be taken as true whereof some be accused How so euer it be Iohn the. 23. is not Iohn the. 22. no more then Iohn Iewel is Iohn Capon Neither was that three and twentith Iohn a true Pope lawfully elect but an vsurper as two others were with him at the same time whiche were deposed al three at the Councel of Constance and a newe Pope chosen So by this place ye haue prooued no heresie against Pope Iohn the. 22. nor against any true Pope at al but onely haue shewed your selfe a shamelesse shifter and one that hath a more malicious minde to hurte the authoritie of the Pope then matter of iuste accusation against him M. Ievvel The Apologie Parte 6. cap. 6. Diuis 1. The Canonistes say the Pope can doe asmuche The. 7. Vntruth as Christe himselfe can doe To this I said it is false and sclaunderous M. Iewel replieth These wordes be most manifest and out of al question Extrà de translatione Episcopi Quanto Hostien Excepto peccato Papa potest quicquid Deus ipse potest Excepte sinne the Pope can doo asmuche as God him selfe can doo This is a most manifest and out of al question to vse this mannes owne wordes a foule corruption Certainely Hostiensis saith not so But bicause the Pope is the Vicare of Christe in earth and God ratifieth what so euer he doth in binding or loosing so it be donne duely and rightly Claue non errante as the Canonistes speake hauing reckened certaine thinges wherein the Popâ— hath authoritie as vnder God and as Christes high officer he concludeth with these wordes Breuiter exceptâ— peccatâ— Ibidem quasi omnia de iure potest vt Deus Briefly excepte sinne he hath power as a man would say in al thinges of right as God Thus saith Hostiensis and not as M. Iewel belieth him And this saying being rightly vnderstanded is a true saying What soeuer the Pope doth or God doth by the Pope that is aboue the power and authoritie of man the same is he said to doo not as man but vt Deus as God bicause he doth it as being the Vicare of Christe as bearing the steede of God And therfore it is said by the learned Canonistes wherewith also M. Iewel beside learning Cap. Romana 1. respon de Appell 6. HostieÌ„sis fovvly corrupted by M. Ievv or reason findeth fault that the Consistorie of God and the Pope is one Consistorie as a Bishops and his Chancellours CoÌ„sistorie is one and the same CoÌ„sistorie Now let vs consider the impudencie of this false Minister First he auoucheth his shamelesse lye boldly as though where truth faileth for shew of proufe the matter might be stowted out The wordes saith he be most manifest and out of al questioÌ„ Excepto peccato Papa potest quicquid Deus ipse potest That is to say the Pope can do as much as Christ him self can do But what if these wordes be not most manifest Is it not then a most manifest impudencie so to affirme of them What if they be not out of al doubte Is it not then out of al doubte that this Minister is a Minister of lyes Certainely the wordes of Hostiensis be those very precise wordes which here I haue alleged and no other See then good Reader this mannes truthe whereof he so muche craketh First Hovv many vntrue partes M. Ievvel plaieth at once he corrupteth the sentence by leauing out sundry the Doctours wordes and telleth his tale for him in such wise as he may finde occasion to carpe him For he hath nipte away first this worde Breuiter which admonisheth the redaer to haue recourse to that goeth before then this worde Quasi which being added by good discretion mitigateth and qualifieth the saying that otherwise perhaps might seeme ouer vehement then againe those other wordes of necessarie importance otÌ„a de iure and vt Next he corrupteth the sentence by putting too of his owne those wordes besides Papa for which I greatly blame him not quicquid and Ipse and that by way of emphasie that the whole might seme the more absurd Besides al this he inuerteth the whole sentence and maketh of Hostiensis true and reasonable saying a blasphemous and â—onde saying of his owne whereof that great learned man did neuer so muche as dreame And who woulde thincke that any man hauing his right witte woulde speake so vainely and so farre biyonde al sufferance of Christian eares that the Pope can doo as muche as God him selfe can doo And yet must al this be faced out and M. Iewel must haue leaue to saie it is most manifeste it is out of al question Who euer saw one litle poore sentence so nipte so hackte so hewed and mangled so turned and caste in a new molde And bicause it liked him wel that is to saie bicause it should mislike al good menne he hath made great stoare of
against Gods Truth I had thought M. Iewel that the doctrine whiche teacheth vs to obeye God more then menne were fulfilled rather by suffering the penaltie of mans lawe or wil being contrarie to Goddes Lawe and wil then by resisting man put in authoritie by God as S. Peter who wrote the foresaid wordes suffered scourging Act. 5. contumelies and emprisonment rather then he would obey the Magistrate commaunding him not to preache nor teache in the name of Iesus If the prince commaunde Heresie or Idolatrie the waie to obey both God and the Prince is to keepe thee from yelding to Heresie or committing of Idolatrie and for Goddes sake to susteine the pounishment what soeuer the Prince putteth vpon the breakers of his commaundement For it is two thinges and much different to obey the Prince in an vnlawful request and to take Armes against the Prince Round capped Ministers Both we God be praised for the Catholike faith and your Rounde capped Ministers for their Cappes and Hattes refuse to obey the Quenes Maiesties commaundement The Prīce not to be obeied by M. Iewels Diuinitie vvhen Gods cause is touched touching matters of conscience bicause we knowe right wel and they pretende to thinke also that by suche commaundement of the Prince Goddes glorie is touched In whiche case you saie M. Iewel the Prince is not to be obeyed Yet God be praised neither we nor they doo take Armes or attempte any force against our Prince as these Nobles of Scotland haue done We haue not so learned S. Peters lesson We haue not so learned to obeye God more then man But we doo rightly iudge and protest such demeanure to be an open disobediēce both to God and to man And yet saie you M. Iewel and that in your booke dedicated for a singular present vnto the Quenes most excellent Maiestie that these Nobles of Scotland had learned S. Peters lesson Tel vs in good sooth if the Catholike Nobilitie and Commons of England who take your heresies to be against Gods truthe as they are in deede shoulde deale with the Quenes Maiestie for matters of Religion whiche God forbid as the Nobles of Scotland haue dealte with their liege Soueraine would you defende their so doing by S. Peter and the prophete Dauid and saie that God is more to be obeyed then man I perceiue you are so selfe willed and so addicted to your faction that if you were a Papiste you would doo no lesse and be as ready to helpe suche a matter forwarde in England as Beza your good brother in Fraunce as the Gues here in the lowe Countries and as Knox in Scotland haue benne But we openly protest before God and the worlde that we condemne and defie al such attemptes I meane that any Subiecte or Subiectes what so euer of their owne priuate authoritie should take Armes against their Prince for matters of Religion This we doo teache to be plaine disobedience bothe to God and to the Prince This haue your Nobles of Scotland done more then once And therefore you haue done vntruely and lewdly I wil not saie traiterously to the preiudice of the Quenes Maiesties owne safetie in defending them and in calling their outragious attemptes suche obedience as S. Peter taught which was suche Treason and Rebellion as S. Paule condemneth Rom. 13. saying Let euery soule be subiecte to the higher powers c. The Doctours whom you allege make clearely against those Nobles Leo de passione Domini Serm. 10. whose rebellion you defende Leo saith To geue vnto Caesar that whiche is Caesars is not to rebel against Caesar but to helpe Caesar But your Nobles rebelled against their Prince Ergo they gaue not that to Caesar whiche was Caesars Againe the Christians of whom S. Ambrose speaketh Ambrosius lib. 5. Epist 33. said to the Emperour Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus we beseche thee Noble Emperour we fight not But your Nobles fought against their Prince they humbly besought not their Prince And yet ô extreme impudencie these places you allege to shewe the obedience of those Nobles After this as thoughe al the eares of Englande were stopped and their wittes bewitched you conclude in this wise Iewel pag. 17. To conclude the Queene of Scotland is stil in quiet possession of her estate Harding And what wil you sticke to saie or write M. Iewel whiche doo saie write and set out in printe suche a palpable and manifest falsehod Suche I saie as euen the very Tankerdbearers of London and al others of the basest sorte besides can witnesse against you What was not the Queene of Scotland of late imprisoned in her owne realme And had she not benne in prison long before your booke came forth And is a Prince cast in prison by his owne Subiectes stil in quiet possession of his estate What wil you make vs beleeue that the Reuerend Fathers the old and only true Bishoppes of our countrie are nowe stil in quiet possession of their Bishoprikes whom al England knoweth to haue susteined emprisonment these eight yeres and more for their constant profession Gods holy name be blessed of Gods Truthe Goe M. Iewel and tel this tale in the new founde Ilandes of India For not only al England but al Fraunce Spaine Germanie Italie yea as it maie be thought a good parte of Turkie it selfe can controlle you of this most infamous lye that the Queene of Scotland is stil in quiet possession of her estate God keepe you and your brethren in suche a quiet possession if ye wil teache the truthe no better then in this Princes daies ye haue taughte Yet you adde farther and saie of the Quene of Scotland Iewel Ibidem And shee is obeied of her subiectes as farre as is conuenient for godly people to obey their Prince Harding Lo a Quene being the right prince of a realme violently and besides al order of law by her subiectes thrust out of her roial estate is yet obeied of her subiectes so farre as is conuenient for godly people to obey their Prince Then by your doctrine M. Iewel it is conuenient for godly people violently to bereue their prince of princely estate if they like not his Religion and yet in so doing they obey Let vs suppose halfe a realme to be Catholiques whom ye cal Papistes halfe Protestantes Shal the Papistes depose their Protestant Prince shal the Protestant Subiectes depose their Papist Prince If ye teache not this what is that ye teache Are not you nowe one of them that teache Subiectes to take Armes against their Prince Thus muche and more whiche I omitte haue you said of the Quene of Scotland and yet how promised you that you woulde saie nothing Truely it had benne better for you and more for your honestie to haue said nothing in deede and to haue dissembled the whole matter as you haue done many other special matters and suche as be of greatest importance in my Confutation then thus to haue bewraied your traiterous
time being and also from S. Peter bicause doubtlesse the priuileges which Christe graunted to S. Peter for the health of the Church remaine stil to euery Bishop of Rome his lawful Successour And what so euer is decreed by the Successours of Peter sitting in Peters Chaire it ought to be vnto vs none other then a Decree of S. Peter him sefe For to vs he is Peter Therefore the learned Fathers of the Councel of Chalcedon hauing heard the famous Epistle that Pope Leo wrote to Flauianus against the Heresie of Eutyches Concil ChalcedoÌ„ Act. 3. allowing wel of it in their solenne Acclamations whiche the Grecians alwaies vsed in their Councelles cried out Petrus per Leonemita locutus est Peter hath so spoken by Leo. Leo him selfe seemeth to declare in what sense S. Peter is thus ioined with him in gouernement of the Churche where he saith thus Post resurrectionem suam Dominus beato Petro Apostolo post regni claues Sermo in â—atiuitate Petri et Pauli ad trinam aeterni amoris professionem mystica insinuatione ter dixit Pasceoues meas quod nunc proculdubio facit mandatum Dominipius pastor exequitur confirmans nos exhortationibus suis pro nobis orare non cessans vt nulla tentatione superemur Si autem hanc pietatis suae curam omni populo Dei sicut credendum est vbique protendit quantò magis alumnis suis opem suam dignatur impendere apud quos in sacro dormitionis thoro eadem qua praecedit carne requiescit Our Lorde after his resurrection said thrise signifiyng a mysterie vnto S. Peter the Apostle Iohan. 21. after the keies of his kingdome had ben geuen to him at what time he made three times profession that he loued him Feede my sheepe whiche without doubte he doth also now and as a godly sheepeheard fulfilleth our Lordes commaundement confirming vs with his exhortations and not ceassing to praie for vs that we be ouercome by no tentation And if he streatche abroad in euery place this his Godly care to al the people of God as it it to be beleeued how muche more doth he vouchesaue to bestow his helpe vpon his owne deere ones among whom he resteth in the sacred bed of his dormition that is to saie in his Sepulchre in the same fleshe in whiche he goeth before vs. In what sense then S. Peter is said to feede Christes sheepe to this daie in the same sense it might wel be said of Leos decrees that they were Decreta à Leone beatissimo Apostolo Petro thinges decreed by Leo and by S. Peter the Apostle God geuing the good inspiration Certaine other suche phrases of Leo M. Iewel condemneth as conteining immoderate and ambitious praise of S. Peter and for the same would discredite that auncient learned Father about the discussion of whiche I thinke it not worth my labour to stand They maie wel be admitted with a conuenient vnderstanding and suche as euery good man would at the first reading of them conceiue Marie I confesse a curious carper wil finde faulte not onely with that this holy Father but with what so euer any learned Father hath written if he be disposed to wrangle vpon that whiche seemeth to be contrarie to the doctrine he hath taken vpon him to mainteine Iewel Pag. 111. Some others haue thought that as vvel these Epistles of Leo as also others moe and other the auncient Bishoppes of Rome haue benne interlaced and falsified by the ambitious Popes that folovved aftervvard c. Harding Of the number of these some others your selfe are one M. Iewel and your felowes are the reste who neiter being hable to auoide the truthe by Leo most clearely vttered nor willing to yelde vnto it would faine wiste ye how raise vp against the credite of his Epistles a surmise of Corruption and falsifying a common practise of yours But what you and suche others as you are thinke of Leo it skilleth litle He hath benne esteemed hitherto for a worthy Clerke and a holy Father Berengarius your first founder hath alwaies benne accompted an heretique and so shal al the Zuinglians and Caluinistes that folow him vpon whose credite ye haue gaged the euerlasting state of your soules be accompted of the Church for euer Of al your weake shiftes this is the weakest and hath leaste coloure of learning to saie of that in an auncient Father ye are not hable to answere that it is interlaced and falsified by the Popes If ye could once purchase you this authoritie to condemne of corruption and falsifying what is found to make cleare against you bring we neuer so muche for proufe of the Catholiquâ— religion your Answer maie soone be ready What you saie of Pope Zosimus falsifying of the Councel of Nice it hath benne throughly answered by vs as I tolde you before and as you know M. Iewel right wel and yet you dissemble it as if nothing were by vs said at al and let not so oftentimes to sing one song Whiche argueth a contentious witte and a desire to fil vp great bookes be the matter neuer so much and sufficiently before answered Iewel Pag. 112. Touching that M. Harding calleth the Pope the prince of Pastours be might haue remembred 1. Pet. 5. that the right of this name belongeth only vnto Christe S. Peter saith That vvhen Christe the prince of Pastours shal appeare ye maie receiue the vncorruptible crovvn Novv to inseaffe the Pope vvith Christes peculiar titles a maÌ„ might think it vvere great blasphemy Harding The Pope lawfully called the Prince of Pastours The 34. Chapt. Great blasphemie saie you Wo be then to S. Augustine that spake such great blasphemie when in a Sermon made before the people August de Sanctis Serm. 28. he called S. Peter principem Apostolorum the prince of the Apostles But the Apostles were Pastours yea the chiefe Pastours of Christes flocke Ergo S. Augustine sawe that it was no great blasphemie to cal S. Peter principem Pastorum the prince of Pastours August de verbis domini in Euang. secundum Math. Sermon 13. Euseb Eccles hist lib. 2. c. 14. In Registro epist 32. In Iohan. Homil. 87 He hath the like wordes in an other place Idem Petrus a petra cognominatus beatus Ecclesiae figuram portans Apostolatus principatum tenens The same blessed Peter hauing his name of a Rocke bearing the figure of the Churche holdeth the princehood of the Apostleship Eusebius also calleth S. Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prince of al the reste of the Apostles To S. Peter prince of al the Apostles the charge of the whole Churche was committed saith S. Gregorie S. Chrysostome nameth him Totius orbis magistrum the maister of the whole worlde no whit lesse in effecte then Prince of Pastours S. Bernard saith to the pope Tu Princeps Episcoporum Thou arte Prince of Bishoppes But Bishoppes are Pastours Ergo the Pope is Prince of Pastours To leaue many others and
Againe there a litle after They that returne from Schisme and Heresie if they were in holy Orders before they became schismatikes they do not receiue holy Orders againe but either they do minister that which they did minister if the profite of the Churche do so require or if they minister not yet do they beare the SacrameÌ„t of their holy Orders stil and therefore the handes are not laid vpon them among the laie sorte Hitherto S. Augustine What hath M. Iewel to saie vnto this If S. Augustine saie that an Heretique or a Schismatique doth not lose the Priestehoode that he had lawfully before he fel into Schisme or Heresie shal M. Iewel control him with his newe Diuinitie and saie vnto him no sir it is not so For if a Bishop be negligent and doo not his duetie I saie he loseth his Order or Bisshophoode and is no more a Bishoppe M. Iewels il lucke is that whereas he readeth many Fathers or some others for him and heapeth a number of their sayinges together to fil vp a great booke neuer a one can be found that when any mater commeth to trial maketh clearely for his side No marueil For truth can neuer be made to serue against truth Iewel Pag. 117. As for VVicklefe he expoundeth plainely his ovvne meaning c. Harding Hus mistaken for Wicklefe a Canon of the Councel of Valentia truly expounded The 38. Chapt. Article 22. The expositorie Article that you allege is one of Iohn Hus his Articles and not Wicklefes condemned in the fifteenth session of the Councel of CoÌ„stance Therefore it is false that Wicklefe euer expounded his meaning in that Article and much more is it false that he did it according to mine owne construction Hus mistakeÌ„ by M. Ievvel for VViklefe as you say Thus you reherse and translate Papa vel praelatus malus et praescitus est equiuocè pastor verè fur Latro. The Pope or any other wicked prelate in doubteful speache is a Pastour but in very deede he is a theese and Latro a robber Here with M. Iewel Latro is a murtherer This is Iohn Hus his article not Iohn Wicklefes This needed not to haue ben marked but that M. Iewel is so precise and so watcheful to prie for the leaste escapes that any of vs maketh How be it both were Heretiques both Hus and Wicklefe and therefore we maie beare the better with M. Iewel if he mistake the one for the other Hus for Wicklefe and thinke that Wiclefe had more zeale of the house of God more learning more knowledge then al the Bishops of that age for so he iudgeth yet if he spake or meant more then truth maie beare M. Iewel who dareth not plainely and flatly either to allowe or to condemne the man but with Iffes and Andes mindeth not to defende him Yet he doth the best he can to defende him by a Canon of the Councel of Valentia in Fraunce not truely vnderstanded but altogether misconstrued Whiche Canon if it were truely translated that is to saie otherwise then M. Iewel hath translated it it should appeare he were fully answered and confuted A canon of the Councel of Valentia in FraÌ„ce truly expounded that vvas corrupted by M Iâ—wâ—ls false translation Concil Valentin Cap. 4. ConcilioruÌ„ Tom. 1. pag. 414. The canon truely translated is thus Who so euer sub ordinatione at the time that order is geuen either of deaconship or of Priesthod or of Bishophod shal saie they are defiled with mortal sinne they are to be remoued from the foresaid not orders as M. Iewel falsely translateth but ordinations that is orderinges or geuing of Orders for so the worde signifieth the very acte of ordering not the Orders them selfe whereby is meant that they ought to be remoued and bid to departe without Orders if one I saie would thus translate the Canon as the praeposition sub importeth M. Iewel were put quite besides his purpose and Wiklef shoulde remaine vndefended and giltie of heresie as he was before M. Iewel tooke in hande to defende him Remember M. Iewel Ordination is the acte of geuing Order Order it selfe is the effecte of Ordination or ordering By this Councel of Valentia they that confessed them selues defiled with mortal sinne were remoued not ab ordinibus from Orders for they had not yet receiued them but ab ordinationibus from the geuing of Orders vnto whiche they came for Orders Vse truthe M. Iewel deceiue not your vnlearned Reader with false translations Wicklefe is charged with this Article in the Councel of CoÌ„stance A king is not a king and a Queene is not a Queene by VVicklef if they be in deadly sinne A king being in deadly sinne is a king by vviklef Huss and M. Ieâ—vel aequâ—uoce in doubteful speache only and by a vvorde of doubt meaning as a painted man is a man Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali None is a temporal Lord none is a prelate none is a Bishop so long as he is in deadly sinne Beholde Reader how M. Iewel in Wicklefes defence bringeth in Wicklefe expounding his owne meaning or rather Hus for Wicklefe The Pope saith Hus whom M. Iewel taketh for Wicklefe or any other wicked prelate in doubteful speache is a Pastour but in very deede he is a theefe and a murtherer What then saith Maister Wicklefe of a king or a queene that is in deadly sinne by the plaine expositioÌ„ of his owne meaning What answereth M. Iewel in this case for his frende Wicklefe Mary whereas Wicklefe saith If a king or a Queene be in deadly sinne then neither is he a king nor shee a Queene M Iewel coÌ„meth in with Hus and thus expoundeth the meaning of Wicklefe he is a King and she is a Queene but how In doubteful speache onely he meaneth in name onely In very deede both he and she are either of them a theefe and a murtherer For so he must saie of the Princes as he saith of the Prieste and Bishop that he is a King or she a Queene by a worde of double meaning as for example vnsauery salte is called salte or as the Prophetes of Baal are called Prophetes or as a painted manne is called a man or as S. Gregorie saith of the Priest by M. Iewels reporte let him or her be called a King or a Queene though in deed he be no Kinge and she no Queene but a theefe c. If a King or a Queene being in deadly sinne be no King nor Queene in deede as M. Iewel with Hus must saie and Wicklefe doth saie what honestie hath he donne Wicklefe in so making him to expound plainely his meaning to deliuer him from the obloquie of his Heresie and from the hatred of Princes when the exposition is as lewde and of as great force as the Heresie is it selfe that I laid bothe to Wicklefes charge and his at the firste Thoughe with your Rhetorique
you maie doo muche and beguile the simple yet thinke not but the wise doo see whyther the maintenaunce of this doctrine tendeth It is il haulting before kreples they saie Truly I iudge this haulting wil appeare muche worse before princes They had neede take heede sith that ye are so bolde with them that they fal not into deadly sinne least soone after by this Doctrine they be driuen out of their kingdomes The authorities in this place by you alleged out of S. Chrysostome S. Ambrose S. Gregorie S. Cyprian Pag. 117. do not meane that such as are il liuers doo lose the Sacrament of Orders once had whiche to saie were a very great and an olde condemned heresie of the Donatistes but that al suche doo not liue as the dignitie of Priestes and Bisshoppes doth require and that they be not suche as haue al the good vertues and qualities that Priestes and Bisshoppes ought to haue Many thinges are for certaine respectes denied whiche absolutely are not denied Al that in a respecte is denied is not absoluely denied Psal 21. Ephes 6. Ego sum vermis non homo I am a worme saith the Prophete speaking of Christe and not a man Wil you hereof by like Logique conclude that Christes humanitie is denied Non est nobis colluctatio aduersus carnem sanguinem we haue no wrastling against flesh and bloude saith the Apostle in some respecte bicause our principal conflicte is not against flesh and bloud and yet we haue a conflicte and a great conflicte against fleshe and bloude and are commaunded therefore to crucifie the fleshe with his lustes Galat. 6. But bicause the Apostle saith so shal we denie that we haue to wrastle and fight against fleshe and bloude at al I trow you nor your felowes are not yet so spiritual but that ye wil confesse ye haue to fight against the fleshe Verely the world seeth your workes be not yet al of the spirite but some of the fleshe Iewel Pag. 118. If the name of Vniuersal Bishop be a provvde name in others vvhy maie it not also be a provvde name in the Bishop of Rome Harding The name of Vniuersal Bishop is not a proude name in the Pope bicause he hath it of right The .39 Chapt. Bicause the worde taken in the right sense is the very right that our Sauiour Christe gaue to S. Peter and to his Successours whiche right of vniuersal regiment he gaue not to others You maie as wisely reason thus If the name of a Queene be a prowde name applied to Margerie Horne M. Hornes dame of Winchester why maie it not also be a prowde name in Elizabeth the lawful Queene With suche geare you fil vp your paper and like a great Clerke set vs out great bookes ful fraughte with stuffe of smal substance and lesse honestie Iewel Pag. 118. May Pride be humilitie and humilitie Pride onely in respecte of diuers personnes Harding Pride is Pride and humilitie is humilitie in what so euer personne Neither can euer the one be the other But that thing whiche is prowdly or with pride donne of one man maie of an other man be donne humbly and without al breache of humilitie You might haue demaunded many wiser questions then this Know you not that the title of honour whiche is due to any person maie be acknowledged of the same without any pride at al S. Paule offended not in pride when he said he was an Apostle sent not of menne nor by man Gal. 1. Iewel Pag. 119. Likevvise Chrysostome saith Dist 40. Multi Quicunque desiderauerit primatum in terra inueniet in coelo confusionem nec inter seruos Christi computabitur qui de primatu tractauerit VVho so euer desireth primacie in earth in Heauen he shal finde confusion neither shal he be accompted emong the seruantes of Christe that vvil once intreate of primacie Harding If that be the saying of S. Chrysostome A forged saying at tributed to S Chrysostome why did you not quote the place And why make ye so muche a do for the Primacie of the Queenes highnesse in Ecclesiastical maters within the Realme Intende you to bring your selfe and her highnesse into Confusion and to shut your selfe out of Heauen S. Chrysostome hath no suche saying That which goeth before in Gratian is taken out of Opus imperfectum in Matthaeum Homil. 43. in cap Matth. 23. Maximinus Arrianus whiche is wel knowen not to be S. Chrysostomes and witht great probabilitie though to be the worke of an Arrian Heretique named Maximinus But this saying whiche here you allege out of Gratian is neither there nor in S. Chrysostome It is a forgerie and that you knewe wel ynough Yet you are not ashamed to vse it to deceiue the ignorant Reader Leaue leaue M. Iewel to abuse the simplicitie of the vnlearned with suche forged peeces and patches What you allege out of S. Chrysostome truly or out of any other Doctor we shal soone answer it by Goddes grace For we are sure that truthe alwaies agreeth with truthe As for suche forgeries we returne them backe to you againe But bicause bothe you M. Iewel and others the chiefe Pillers of your side haue said so muche touching the name of Vniuersal Bisshop and haue so vehemently inueighed against the Pope for the same bearing the vnlearned in hande ye haue a great aduantage against vs therein I thinke it good and necessarie here to treate more fully thereof and to shewe how litle ye are to be trusted as wel in this as in many other pointes of Doctrine and howe farre ye abuse the vnlearned Reader by misreporting the thirde Councel of Carthage being deceiued if it be errour and not wilful malice by a place of Gratian very ignorantly and grossely mistakeÌ„ M. Iewels Forgerie concerning the name of Vniuersal Bisshop The 40. Chapt. Vniuersal vvhiâ—therby is signified This woorde Vniuersal doth importe asmuche as one in al and al in one For the name of Vniuersalitie leaueth nothing vncomprised so that if any man be properly the vniuersal Patriarke or Bishop there is no Patriarke or â—ishop which is not in him and which he is not Therefore when Ihon of Constantinople named and wrote him selfe Vniuersal Patriarke or Bishop albeit perhaps he meant not thereby to derogate from al other Patriarkes and Bishops but only to make him selfe equal with the best whiche now also M. Iewel liketh wel of and defendeth it for lawful yet S. Gregorie and before him Pope Pelagius consydering the sclaunder that might rise by occasion of that proude Title did worthily resiste the said name and stile as proude and wicked bothe in it selfe and specially in the Bishop of Constantinople For if any man lyuing should take any such name vnto him it should be the first and chiefe of al Bishops which is the Bishop of Rome But he doth not so ne neuer didde so as the truthe is therefore much lesse any other Bishop
of a bishops office by one that is not a bishop that perteineth to the consecration of a Bishop And wil you vnderstand what Epiphanius iudged of that wicked disorder He acknowledgeth it to be the part of men that of a certaine presumption of minds violently and besides all truth play the rash and dissolute wantons VVhat Epiphanius iudgeth of it For so the Greeke signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus they be neither Priestes nor Deacons which be not consecrated laufully according to the order vsed in the Church that is to wit by bishops laufully consecrated but either by the people or the lay magistrate as it is in some places where this doctrine is professed or by monkes and friers Apostates or by excommunicate priestes hauing no bishoply power In Dialogo contra Luciferia nos Hereof S. Hierome saith notably Hilarius cùm Diaconus de Ecclesia recesserit c. Hilary forasmuch as he weÌ„t from the Church being a Deacon and is only as he thinketh the multitude of the world can neither consecrate the Sacrament of the aulter being without Bisshop and Priestes nor deliuer Baptisme without the Eucharist And where as now the man is dead with the man also the Sect is ended because being a Deacon he could not consecrate any clercke that should remaine after him And Church is there none which hath not a Priest SacerdoteÌ„ But letting go these fewe of litle regard that to them selues be both lay and Bisshops listen what is to be thought of the Church Thus S. Hierome there In whom leauing other thinges I note that if there be no Church where is no Priest where is your Church like to become after that our Apostates that now be fled froÌ„ vs to you shal be departed this life Leaft out by M. Ievvel By S. Hierome the English â—hurch shal be no Churche at al. And yet being with you as they be your Church is already in such state as S. Hierome reporteth that is no Churche at al howe so euer ye set foorth your newe gospel vnder the name of the Church of England Bucer being once charged to geue accompt of his vocation had no other shifte but to acknowledge for defence of his ministerie that he had taken Orders of a bishop after the rite and maner of the Catholike Church Luthers aduise touching Muncers vocation Sleidan recordeth that Luther himselfe wrote to the senate of Mulhusen concerning Muncer the preacher of the Anabaptistes who stirred the common people of Germanie to rise against their nobilitie that the senate should do wel to demaund of Muncer who committed to him the office of teaching and who had called him thereto And if he would name God for his authour that then they should require him to proue his vocation by some euident signe or miracle If he could not do that then he aduised them to put him awaye For this is the wont of God said he when so euer he willeth the accustomed forme and ordinarie maner to be changed to declare his wil by some signe * Of vvhat maner is the vocation of our super intendetâ— Therefore this being true it remaineth M. Iewel you tel vs whether your vocation be ordinarie or extraordinarie If it be ordinarie shewe vs the letters of your Orders At lest shewe vs that you haue receiued power to do the office you presume to exercise by due order of laying on of handes and consecration But order and consecration you haue not For who coulde geue that to you of al these newe ministers how so euer els you cal them whiche he hath not him selfe If it be extraordinarie as al that ye haue done hytherto is besides al good order shewe vs some signe or miracle If you faile in al these why ought not you to be put awaie * The Defenders haue nothing to say for defence of their vocatioÌ„ If you can shew no signe or miracle as your vertue promiseth vs none bring vs forth some example of your extraordinarie vocation out of the Stories of Christes Church that hath folowed the Apostles If you be destitute also thereof at lest shewe vs what prophete in the olde Testamente euer was heard extraordinarily without signe or miracle or testimonie of God * Leaft out by M. Ievvel Finally what can you answer to that Lib. 1. Epist 6. whiche may be obiected to you out of S. Cyprians epistle to Magnus touching Nouatian It was at those dayes a question whether Nouatian baptized and offered specially where as he vsed the forme manner and ceremonies of the Churche Cyprian denieth it Eusebius Ecclesiast Hist li. 6. cap. 43. in Graec. For he can not saith he be compted a Bisshop who setting at nought the Tradition of the Gospel and of the Apostles nemini succedens à seipso ordinatus est succeding no man is ordeined bisshoppe of him selfe For by no meanes may one haue or holde a Churche that is not ordeined in the Churche Leaft out by M. Ievvel M. Ievvel and the rest of his companions be no bishops but vsurpers of an vndue office and ministerie I leaue here to recite the rest of that Epistle perteining to this point and al against you for that it were to long Thus it is euident for as muche as you can neither prooue your doctrine by continual Succession of Priestes nor referre your Imposition of handes to any Apostle or Apostolike Bishoppe nor shewe your Vocation to be ordinarie for lacke of lauful ordination and consecration nor extraordinarie for lacke of Gods testimonie and approbation by signe or miracle or example of the olde or newe Testament that you are not laufully called to the administration of Doctrine and Sacramentes that you are not duely and orderly preferred to the Ministerie whiche you exercise that you go not being called that you runne not being sent Therefore we may iustly say that ye haue thrust your selfes into that Ministerie at your owne pleasure and lyst For though the Prince haue thus promoted you yet be ye presumers and thrusters in of your selues Wel landes and manours the Prince may geue you Priesthod and Bishophod the Prince can not geue you Ierem. 23. This being so we doo you no wrong as ye complaine in telling you and declaring to the world that touching the exercise of your Ministerie ye do nothing orderly or comely but al thinges troublesomly and without order Onlesse ye meane such order and comelines as theeues obserue among them selues in the distribution of their robberies Lastly if ye allowe not euery man yea and euery woman to be a Priest why driue ye not some of your felowes to recant that so haue preached why allow ye the bookes of your newe Euangelistes that so haue writen Leaft out by M. Ievvel And whether ye admitte al sortes of the common people to be your Ministers of the worde to teache the people and vnreuerently to handle the holy Scriptures or no our
shal succede him that is your accursed addition but he saith non parcentes gregi which you haue left out Those rauening Wolues shal not spare the flocke but shal diuide the faith and scatter the flocke as you haue doone For where one Faith was you haue made two and where charitie was you haue set debate Now whereas S. Paule farther saith men speaking peruerse things shal spring out of them selues he saith not Act. 20. they shal spring by Succession That is your foule corruption of the holy texte He addeth also other wordes immediatly whiche you haue leaft out as vtterly betraying your foule Heresies It foloweth in the selfe same clause and sentence vt abducant discipulos post se There shal spring out of your selues men speaking peruerse thinges Act. 20. to leade away scholars after them Vt abducant to lead away Whence shal they lead them from the Apostles and from their Successours and from the flocke wherein they liued before Whither shal they lead them Post se after them selues That is to saie they shal not keepe the former Succession of Doctrine and order teaching as their Fathers haue donne but they shal departe from that Succession and shal leade and cari◅ others awaie with them and become peruerse Teachers in suche sorte that they shal haue Disciples of their owne who shal beare their name as Luther hath the Lutherans Zuinglius hath the Zuinglians Caluine hath the Caluinistes after him who goe away from their forefathers Doctrine and them selues set vp a new beleefe comming in Christes name and pretending his Gospel but yet not teaching his truth bicause thei leaue the Succession where only his truth was and is taught For it onely doth by open practise shewe and witnesse the true meaning of his worde vvho be the leaders avvay of the Flock 3. Reg. 12. This this M. Iewel is the Succession that we claime by Tu abducis you leade awaye the flocke from their auncient Pastours and shepeherds we tarie stil behinde in the old Succession of Peters Chaier Ieroboam went out from Moyses Chaier and caried ten tribes after him so did Arius and so did Luther so did Caluine so doo you The Prophetes taried behind with Moyses Chaier in so muche that good Simeon Anna Zacharias Elizabeth and our Ladie the Blessed Virgin Marie chose rather to dwel in Gods Church with the vnclean scribes and Pharisees then to goe out ofter the Samaritans and to seeke a cleaner Congregation either in the mount Garizim or in Egipte in the Scismatical Temple of Onias Euen so doo we abyde stil in the olde Church neither are we greatly moued with your mockes and scoffes when ye cal it the Mumpsimus Churche Yea we abide contented with the olde translation of the Bible with the olde Portuises and Masse bookes yea perhappes also emong some Scribes and Pharisees But yet there by Goddes grace we wil looke for our Lords glorious comming who commended our forefathers to the special charge of Peter Ioan. 21. and therein vs to his Successours We are within the Fold ye without we are Sheepe ye are Goates we keepe in al that we can ye drawe away and pul out al that ye can we sprang not out of you but ye out of vs. If S. Paule had spoken of his Successours in that place he would not haue said Vt abducant to leade away scholars For when some be leadde away some others tarie behind Now the Successour if he abide not behinde he is no Successour Nestorius a skatterer of the flock but a leader away In so muche that Nestorius being Bishop of Constantinople yet when he taught otherwise of Christes Person then his Predecessours had donne he was then no Successour of Alexander Paulus and S. Chrysostome because he disalowed those his Predecessours but he was a scatterer of the flocke and a leader away of Scholars after him selfe and not after his Predecessours Thinke you that any true beleeuing man taketh you M. Iewel for one of the Successours of S. Augustine our Apostle M. Ievv no Successour of our Apostle S. Augustine who conuerted our English nation from Idolotrie to Christe Are you his Successour Why you lead men away from him and persuade in this your booke that he was not our true Apostle nor any true teacher of Gods worde but a cruel and blouddy man 1. Ioan. 2. and proud aboue measure Away Woolfe and deuoure thy Goates abroade thou camest from vs but thou wert not of vs for if thou hadst benne of vs thou hadst remained stil with vs. I exhorte al Christian menne to returne vnto the Succession of Peter and of al other faithful menne who abide in the same faith with him Iewel S. Hierome saith they be not alvvayes the children of holy men that by Succession haue the places of holy men Dist 40. Non est Harding Double holines There is a double holinesse one of life an other of state or office Concerning life it is true that many times euil men succede in the place of good And so meant your Author M. Ievv falsifieth S. Hierome Dist 40. Nō est facile as his owne wordes whiche in the same sentence you haue leafte out doo witnesse For thus he saith Non Sanctorum filij sunt qui tenent loca sanctorum sed qui exercent opera eorum They are not the children of the Saintes who holde the places of the Saintes but those who practise the workes of the Saintes In this sentence you haue leaste out the ende and haue caste in of your owne the worde alwayes and these two wordes by Succession And when al is done the sentence is not S. Hieromes but Gratians owne added to the former woordes of S. Hierome Howbeit they are somewhat altered Hierom. epist ad Heliodorū For thus saith S. Hierome Non est facile stare loco Pauli tenere gradum Petri iam cum Christo regnantium It is not an easy thing to stande in the place of Paule and to holde the Degree of Peter now raigning with Christe of whiche ye can take no aduantage against Succession whereof we treat Holinesse of degree and office Ioan 1. But concerning holinesse of Degree state and office there is the same holinesse in the Successour which was in the Predecessour For it is Christe that baptizeth and that in like ministeries worketh by the euil man as wel as by the good so long as the Succession is not broken of and forsaken For if that be once done he that maketh the breache is not properly a Successour in truthe but a beginner of errour As for example Who wil say that Cranmer was the Successour of S. Thomas Cranmer no Sucessour of S. Thomas the blessed Martyr or of Bishop Warrham in the Chaier of Cantorburie I trowe he him selfe would not say it if he were a liue seing he succeded not in their Faith and Doctrine Iewel Pag. 127. Not vvithstanding the
lyes and gloses and also an vnprofitable bestowing of good time Iewel They are gonne from Faith to infidelitie from Christe to Antichrists Harding Which they M. Iewel Did he speake of the Popeâ—… of Rome M. Ievvel odiously layeth that to the Bishops of Rome vvhiche vvas spoken generally by vvaie of coÌ„plaint of al euil ChristiaÌ„s You say touching the Church of Rome c. And yet now you bring forth that which was generally spoken and that by waie of complaint of al euil Christians and not namely of the Bisshops of Rome Againe how are they gonne from faith to infidelitie and from Christ to Antichrist Verely bicause they are gonne froÌ„ God to Epicure that is to say bicause many of them liue as if they had neither faith nor Christ nor God Last of al he saith not they are gonne as you falsifie his wordes but with a moderation would God they were not gonne He sheweth him selfe to feare lest they be gonne he taketh not vpon him boldly to affirme it as you doo Iewel And yet al other thinges failing they must holde onely by Succession and only bicause they sit in Moyses Chaire they must claime the possession of the vvhole This is the right and vertue of their Succession Harding Is it not reason if secular men hold their kingdomes landes goodes and rightes by Succession yea when al other rightes forces and vertues faile that Gods Ministers if they had nothing els leaft should hold stil their owne also by Succession It is wel knowen that the Bishops of Rome haue more then only Succession For they make good Decrees they geue answer to great consultations they cal General and Prouincial Councelles they execute the Canons of them and send forth Preachers as of late they haue done euen vnto the new found Indies beside many other godly and vertuous actes which they exercise for the saluation of their own soules and of the people But what if they had nothing but Succession Would you then haue men forsake their folde and Church Did Isaias so did Esdras so did Iudas Machabeus so did Zacharias so did S. Iohn Baptist so Can you deuise the Popes to be worse then Caiphas or the Pharisees Math. 23. And yet Christ willed them to be obeied albeit they had litle els beside Succession It is this Succession M. Iewel which shal lie in your and in your companions waie at the dredful day of accompte It shal not be demaunded of euery man why he studied not the Scriptures which most men haue not learned to reade But it shal be demaunded why they haue no faith nor charitie No faith by forsaking the open and knowen Succession no charitie by breaking vnitie Euery man seeth Succession ignorance can not be pretended and euery man shal be iudged by it concerning his Faith Iewel The vvordes of Tertullian M. Harding vvhich you haue here alleged vvere spoken of certaine your ancient fathers that had raised vp a nevv religion of them selues as you haue also done vvithout either vvorde of God or example of the Apostles and holy fathers Harding It is happy that at the length Here at length M. Ievvel beginneth to ansvver my vvordes but how consider you beginne to answere my wordes We shal now see how wel you touche Tertullians meaning You say his wordes were spoken of certaine my ancient Fathers That can not be so For none are in this behalfe my fathers but those who loue wel the Succession of Bishops But Tertullian spake of those De Prascription aduersus Haret that esteemed the Succession of Bishops as litle as you do And therefore they are your fathers of whom he speaketh that is to say they are Heretikes of whom he speaketh For in dede no heretike can abide Succession bicause they would faine iustle out the olde Succession to schuffle in their new Intrusion You say the men of whom Tertullian speaketh raised vp a new Religion of them selues and therein you say truth You adde as I also haue donne but therein you belye me for ye are not hable to laye any one point of doctrine to my charge wherein I follow not that old Succession which abhorreth al new Religion Let al the worlde iudge who raiseth vp a newe Religion you or I. You say the Heretiques of who Tertullian spake raised vp a new Religion without the Worde of God example of the Apostles or of holy Fathers If you meane without the true meaning of Gods worde you say truth and then you also are without Gods worde bicause you are without the Church whereunto Gods worde with the true interpretation thereof was geuen and we are not without it bicause we conteine our selues within the Churche But if you meane that these heretikes did not sounde the wordes of the Scriptures in their lippes as falsely and withal as fast as you doo then you say not truly For Tertullian in that booke doth shew that the Heretikes also appealed to the Scriptures Tertullian in Prascript aduersus haeret and he answered that to striue with heretiques vpon the scriptures was a thing of vncertaine victorie bicause one saith it is not holy Scripture an other saith it is holy Scripture one saith it is meant thus an other saith it is â—â—â—â—t otherwise But saith Tertullian the interpretation of the Scriptures belongeth to them It booteth not to striue vvith heretiques about the Scriptures who haue the true faith and he concludeth that they haue the true faith who haue the perpetual Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne daies Scripturas obtendunt hac sua audacia statim quosdam mouent The Heretiques pretende to bring Scriptures for them selues and with that their impudencie forthwith they shake some And afterward Ibidem Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est nec in his constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est aut parum certa Therefore we must not alwaies appeale vnto the Scriptures neither must we striue about them in which either no victorie at al or an vncertaine or verely not very certaine victorie is obteined Then sheweth he that heretikes of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures but onely the Catholiques Heretiques of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures TertulliaÌ„ Ibidem to whom the Apostles deliuered them and not them only but other thinges also viua voce by mouth and worde without writing Si hac ita sunt constat proinde omnem doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis matricibus et originalibus fidei conspiret veritati deputandam reliquam verò omnem doctrinam de mendacio praeiudicandam quae sapiat contra veritatem Ecclesiarum Apostolorum Christi Dei. If this be so then is it euident that al such doctrine as agreeth with those that are the Apostolique Churches the mother Churches and the original Churches of the faith is to be taken for true and that al other
euer allege against the truth without some corruptioÌ„ In S. Paules words you leaft out a smal word in appearance but yet great of strength The worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 enim M. Ievv corrupteth S. Paule which in english doth signifie for This word for geueth great light to S. Paules meaning For wheÌ„ he had said that the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles was coÌ„mitted vnto him euen as the preaching of the Gospel to the Iewes was coÌ„mitted vnto S. Peter least any man should thinke that he meant of a special commission purposely reserued to him alone by God he declareth how that commission might be proued Qui enim operatus est Petro For he that hath wrought in Peter in the Apostleship of the Circuncision that is to saie of the Iewes hath wrought in me also emong the gentiles That same enim for doth make the place plaine They knew that God had no lesse committed the Gentiles to Paule then the Iewes to Peter How knew they it For he wrought now as mightily with Paule emong the Gentiles as he had wrought before with Peter emong the Iewes So that S. Chrysostome wel noteth Chrysost in 2. ca. ad Galat. non dixit postquà m audissent sed cognouissent hoc est ex ipsis didicissent factis He said not after they had heard but after they had knowen that is to say after they had learned by the deedes them selues Marke M. Iewel marke the deedes them selues It was now the commission of the deedes whereby God declared him selfe to haue wrought in them both But that not withstanding S. Peter did might and ought to preache vnto the Gentiles and to plant and dispose their Churches no lesse then S. Paule And S. Paule might likewise plante dispose and order the Iewes Churches For their right was one concerning the Apostolike authoritie Iewel VVhere you say that according to the ecclesiastical Canons euer from the Apostles time Bishops haue euermore ben consecrated by three other bishops vvith the confirmation of the bishop of Rome Harding I said M. Ievv falsifieth my saying with the consent of the Metropolitane which you haue here pared awaie and Confirmation of the Bishop of Rome I added also thus Vnitie hath euer benne kepte whiche you also haue vntruly leaft out Iewel Pag. 129. As if vvithout him no man might be allovved to be a Bishop yee should not so vnaduisely report so manifest Vntruth For I besech you vvhere be these Ecclesiastical Canons VVho deuised them VVho made them VVho gaue the Pope that singular priuilege that no Bishop should be admitted in al the vvorlde but onely by him Harding Among the Canons of the Apostles this is the first Episcopus à duobus aut tribus Episcopis ordinetur Let a Bishop be ordered or made Bishop by two or three Bishoppes These Canons are allowed by the sixth General Councel Yet can you aske where be these Ecclesiastical Canons who deuised them who made them By a Decre of Hilarius no Bishop can be coÌ„secrated without the Metropolitanes consent What Consecration could M. Iewel and his felowes haue who hath neither Metropolitan at al nor lawful Bishop to Consecrate them Howbeit touching this I nede to saie litle for in the very nexte side of the leafe M. Iewel confuteth him selfe Where as one that had quite forgoten him selfe he saith thus Our Bishoppes are made in Fourme and Order as they haue benne euer by free election of the Chapter by the Consecration of the Archebishop and other three Bishoppes If this be the Fourme and Order of making Bishops that hath benne euer to be Consecrated by tharchebishop and three other Bishops why were you so hote against me in calling for th'Ecclesiastical CanoÌ„s which you bind your selfe now to shew or elles you must confesse that you haue made this new order that hath not ben euer Anacletus In epist Decret The Popes autoritie of coÌ„fiming Bishops is of Christ Ioan. 21. But now concerning the Popes authoritie to confirme Bishops to omit for this present the olde Canon of Pope Anacletus which is afterward alleged and to shew the first author of this mater Christe who made Peter the chiefe Pastour of al and who gaue commission to him louing him more then the other Apostles did to feede accordingly as he loued that is to feede more then the oâ—her Apostles did Christe who inspired Peter to goe to Rome and there to settle the Apostolike See and Chaire of his Bishoply Primacie Christe who inspired Peter to make S. Clement and the other Bishoppes of Rome his Successours gaue the Bishop of Rome Peters Successour this Priuiledge that no Bishop ought to be a Bishop without his consent For what reason can suffer that any man shal gouuerne any part of those sheepe whiche are al committed to the Bishop of Rome without the Bishop of Romes consent which consent is a Confirmation sufficient to any Bishop for the due gouernmeÌ„t of his flocke Now this consent of the Bishop of Rome was many wayes knowen For when soeuer he coÌ„sented to the general order of the catholik Church to wit that he should be a Bishop whosoeuer were laufully chosen by the Clergie Optatâ—us lib. 2. Communicatorie letters then his coÌ„sent was geuen generally And when after the election made coÌ„municatorie letters thereof came to Rome as to be head place of the Christian CoÌ„munion then was the said Bishop specially coÌ„firmed and so coÌ„firmed that the Pope could not choose but coÌ„firme him except he could make any iust exceptioÌ„ against him For as no man ought to gouuerne in the Church without the Popes confirmatioÌ„ when it may coÌ„modiously be had without impediment euen so the Pope must nedes confirme those who are lawfully chosen except he wil vpon good ground change the gouuernmeÌ„t of the Dioces to a more profitable order as many times it hath ben don This mater would require a large Treatise But it is in part handled already in my first booke set forth against the Articles of your ChaleÌ„ge M. Iew. wher you might haue sene what I alleged why the Pope should confirme Bishops so that now this thing should not haue ben so strange vnto you Ievvel Pag. 129. I remember your Canonistes haue said Felin D. constitut ca. Canonum statuta col 6. ver fallit M. Ievvel speaketh as if he had ben a Canonist many yeres agoe the Pope may make a Bishop only by his vvorde vvithout any farther Consecration Harding Do you remember it M. Iewel It was clearkly spoken forsooth and in such sort as if you had ben an olde studeÌ„t of the CanoÌ„ law many a winter past and that now whiles you had ben occupied in higher maters yet some of these former meditations had come againe to your minde and worthily For it was a thing much to be mused vpon of him that occupieth a Bishops place what Felinus or Panormitan said coÌ„cerning the Pope The truth is M. Iewel you either had this
had deceiued the Pope by false suggestion Therefore if a true suggestion had ben made to the Pope his Decree should haue preuailed although it extended it selfe as farre as Spaine and that for the restitution of a Bishop against him that was newly elected a Bishop by the consent of al the Bishops of Spaine Therefore the Popes authoritie ouer other Bisshops grounding it selfe vpon a right and true information was acknowledged in the Primitiue Church Iewel Pag. 129. 130. Dist 64. cap. fin In dede touching euery Metropolitanes seueral Iurisdiction Gratianus noteth thus Illud generaliter clarum est quod si quis praeter sententiam Metropolitani fuerit factus Episcopus hunc magna synodus definiuit Episcopum esse non oportere This is generally cleare that if any man be made Bishop vvithout the consent of his Metropolitane the great councel of Nice hath decreed that such a one may not be Bishop So likevvise saith Socrates of the Bishop of Constantinople VVithout the consent of the Bishop of Constantinople let no man be chosen Bishop Socrates Lib. 7. cap. 28. Here is a right reserued specially to the Bishop of Constantinople and to euery Metropolitane vvithin his ovvne prouince But of the Bishop of Romes vniuersal right of Confirmation vve heare nothing Harding You reason vpon authoritie negatiuely as though if the Councel of Nice and Socrates speake not of that confirmation whiche belongeth to the Bishop of Rome therefore there could be no suche But it appeareth by S. Cyprian in diuers Epistles that it was the custome in his time for a Bishop newly made to sende letters to al the other Bishops intimating his Election Now as those letters came first and specially to the Bishop of Rome Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist 3. as fitting by S. Cyprians owne confession in the principal chaire and succeding S. Peter euen so if the Pope for iuste causes had not receiued the letters and communion of the said newe Bishop he then for lacke of the Popes confirmation could not rightly haue enioyed his Bishoprike as it appeareth by many examples which would require a discourse ouer long for this place nor very needeful sith the confirmation of Bishoppes is not our principal matter but only the Succession Yet M. Iewel who remēbreth of olde so much Canon Lawe may cal to his remembrance what I haue said in my Answer to the Articles of his Chalenge In my Ansvver Artic. 4. where I haue shewed that the Pope had three Legates in the Easte a In epist. Simplicij ad Acatiū one in Constantinople b In epist Bonifacij ad Eulalium the other in Alexandria c Leo epistol 82. the third in Thessalonica Whereunto M. Iewel hath replied nothing as also M. Stapleton hath noted in the Returne Now if those Bishops being not only Metropolitanes but also two of them Patriarkes were neuer the lesse the Popes Legates it is easy to see how the Popes confirmation was geuen to the Bishoppes generally vnder those Primates seing the Primates them selues were confirmed by him or els they were not accompted lawful Bishops for lacke of his cōfirmation Zonaras in vita Constātis nepot Heraclij as it is euident in the exāple of Pyrrhus the Bishop of Cōstantinople who both was put into his bishoprike by the bishop of Rome when he had persuaded him that he was Catholike and againe was put out by his autoritie when it was perceiued that he had dissembled Iewel Pag. 130. Neither doth M. Hardinges counterfeite Anacletus claime al the Bisshops thorough the vvorld as belonging to his Admission Epistol 3. dist 93. iuxta Sanctorū but only a parte These be his vvordes Omnes episcopi qui huius Apostolicae sedis ordinationi subiacent Al the bisshops that are vnder the ordering or confirmation of this Apostolike See Harding If Anacletus be counterfeite Anacletus not counterfeite it is farre from our knowledge For we found that Epistle in his name registred emong the epistles of other Popes aboue a thousand yeres past And Isidorus who gathered them found them so intitled as we reade them Therefore your slaunderours tongue toucheth not vs. Ordination and Confirmation are diuers Concerning that you accompte Ordering and Confirmation to be al one it is a grosse errour both in Grammer and in knowledge of histories Ordinatio is ordering and Confirmatio is confirmation The Ordering of bishops was done by the bishops of the same Prouince with the consent of the Metropolitane Nicen. Concil ca. 6. But the confirmation was made by other Bisshops also without the Prouince and specially by the Bishop of Rome who these many hundred yeres hath confirmed them alone bicause the vse of communicatorie letters is leaft and that is reputed don◠by the whole body which is done by the head thereof Iewel Pag. 130. Sozom. li. 6. cap. 23. So likevvise vvriteth Damasus to the Bisshops of Illyricum Par est omnes qui sunt in orbe Romano magistros consentire It is meete that al the teachers vvithin the Romaine iurisdiction should agree together Harding The olde stuffe of M Iewels Replie here repeated Before you referred these matters to your Replie as though you would haue said no more thereof and yet al this while you do but write out your Replie againe To what purpose you allege these wordes I cannot tel as the which make euidently against you and nothing for you The Romaine world or iurisdiction was both East and Weast as farre as the Romaines had conquered and they had conquered al the countries wherein al the Patriarchal Sees were placed If therefore by Damasus you wil proue that he confirmed al the bishops in the Romaine circuite surely you proue thereby that he confirmed the three Patriarkes of Alexandria of Antioche and of Ierusalem with al the bishops vnder them So wel your owne tale is tolde And in dede better it can not be tolde seing euery thing that is true is agreable with the truth and therefore what soeuer you falsifie not must needes proue against you who susteine the false cause Iewel Pag. 130. Againe that you say a Bisshop hath alvvaies benne consecrated by other three Bisshops vvhether it be true or no it may vvel be called in question a◠being of your parte hitherto very vveakely affirmed Harding My affirmation therein is taken out of the fact of the three Apostles S. Peter S. Iohn and S. Iames Euseb histor Eccl. lib. 2. ca. 2 who as Eusebius witnesseth did consecrate our Lordes brother the first bishop of Ierusalem And he againe reciteth it out of Clemens Alexandrinus So auncient was this tradition whereof now M. Iewel doubteth The same likewise is againe witnessed in the fourth Councel Concil holden at Carthage Cartha 4 where two bishops are prescribed to holde the booke of the Gospels ouer the Bishops head Can. 2. whiles the third blesseth him Iewel Pag. 130. Surely Petrus de Palude
husband of one wife that the same order contineweth stil in the Church thereto he saieth in his secoâ—d homilie de patientia Iob non ea ratione quod id nunc in Ecclesia obseruetur Oportet enim omni prâ—rsus castitate Sâ—cerdotem ornatum esse S. Paule sayeth he required this not in consideration that the same be nowe obserued in the Church For it behoueth a Bishop to be garnished with al manner a chastitie Iewel Here commeth M. Hardinge in a lofte vvith Io Triumphe as hauing beaten dovvne al the vvorld vnder his feete And as being already in sure possession of the victorie he crieth out Impudencies Loude his foule Faultes and pietie Fittens And ful terribly chargeth vs like a Conqueroure to render oure selues and to râ—cante for sonne This nevve courage is suddainly blovven vpon him for that he thâ—â—keth vve haue intruded vâ—on his office and as he saieth haâ—e corrupted and falsified the holy Fathers But it vvere a vvorthie matter to knovve vvherein Forsoothe vve saie by the reporte of Sozâ—menus and Gregorius Nazianzenus that Spiridion and Gregorie Father to Nazianzen being bothe Married Bishoppes notvvithstanding theire Marriage vvere neuer the vvâ—rsâ— hable to doo theire Ecclesiastical offices but rather the better * The vvordes importe it not Here M. Harding of himselfe and freely confesseth these Holy Fathers vvâ—re neâ—â—r the vvorse hable to dâ—â— their offices For so muche th◠〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 importe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But that they vvere the better hable to doe theirâ— offices â—â—cause of theire VViues that he dâ—nieth vtterly and herein he saieâ—h me are corrupters and falsifiers of the Fathers And thus the vvhole difference that is betvvene M. Hardinge and vs touching this matter standeth onely in these tvvo poore vvordes Rather the better and â—euer the vâ—â—rse Novv gentle reader I beseche thee also Reader to vveigh my Ansvver that thou maiest be the better hable tâ— iâ—dge betvvene vs I beseeche the indifferently vveigh these vvâ—â—des Gregorie Nazianzene hereof that is of the helpe Vntruth for then he vvas not Bishop but an infidel Nazian in Epitaphiâ— patris that his Father 〈◊〉 being the Bishop of Nazianzum had by his vvife vvriteth thus Illa quae data est Adamo c. Eua that vvvas geuen to Adam for a helper for asmuch as it vvas nâ—â— good for man to be alone in steede of a helper became his enemie It follovveth Meo autem Patri Mater mea data illi à Deo non tantum adiutrix facta est id enim minus esset miruÌ„ sed etiaÌ„ dux princeps verbo factoque inducens illuÌ„ ad res optimas Et aliis quidem rebus quamuis optimum esset subditam esse viro propter iura coniugii tamen in pietate non verebatur seipsam illi magistram exhibere My mother being geuen to my father of God became not onely his helper for that had ben no great vvonder but also vvas his leader and Captaine She vvas his Maistresse before he knevv vvhat the faith of Christ vvas yet they serue you to no purpose False He vvas not then Bishop of Nazianzum nor yet a Christian bothe by vvord and by deede trayning him vnto the best And albeit in other thinges it vvere beste for her to be subiecte vnto her husbande for the right of marriage yet in religion and Godlinesse she doubted not to becomme his Maistresse These vvordes M. Hardinge be plaine and cleare and vvithout fitton Gregorie Nazianzen sayeth that his ovvne â—â—â—ther vvas vnto his father the Bishop of Nazianzum a helper and a directour both by vvorde and deede to leade him to the best and that in al other thinges being his inferiour yet in â—eligion and Godlinesse she vvas his * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 VVhat a do vvould this fellovv make if he had me at a Vantage in deede that thus fareth vvithout cause as by the ansvver it shal better appeare Maistresse And yet mâ—st al these vvordes so open so plaine so cleare be drovvned vvith your simple distinction of Rather the better and neuer the vvorse Maie vve not novve allovve you vvith fauour to take al these that ye cal sitions lyes corruptions and falsifienges home againe vnto your selfe If you â—â—â—â—r crâ—â—le thâ—se tâ—â—â—ges before is 〈…〉 must remembre al truth must not be measured by your reading â–ª Harding To beginne with these last wordes as I require not al truth to be measured by my râ—â—ding M. Iâ—wâ—l so neither is it to be measured by your writing Whether I euer readde these thinges before or no it skilleth not Certaine it is where you readde al that ye haue here alleged out of S. Gregorie Nazianzene you readde also that whereby your false and vnreasonable assertion is confuted teaching that his Father being Bishop of NazianzuÌ„ learned the doctrine of Godlines of his wife Hauing read and seene the truth of this point in that very place and here conceeling it that you might not seeme confuted yea and so boldely auouching the contrarie how make you not al menne that know this witnesses of your falshode and impudencie M. Ievvels gay eloquence minister-like As for your vaine and light tauntes of my comming in a lofte with Io Triumphe of my terrible charging of you like a Conquerour of the new courage suddainly blowen vpon me and such other prety eloquence fitter for a Minister then for a sober man I can easily contemne No wise man that readeth my wordes for which ye ruffle so with me wil iudge you had iuste cause with suche sporte to delight your selfe Neither said I if you marke my wordes wel that you had corrupted and falsified the holy Fathers for that you said vpon reporte of Sozomenus and S. Gregorie Nazianzene that Spiridion and Gregorie Father to Nazianzene were for their marriage neuer the worse hable to serue God but rather the better which neuerthelesse is false but for that you speake it generally of a Bishop as though Bishops should doâ— that apperteineth to their charge the better if they married wiues For truth whereof I referre me to the place SpiridioÌ„ and Gregorie Nazianzenes father Those two holy Fathers were menne endewed with a singular and special grace and the example of so few is not to be drawen to be made a rule in general as I said in my Confutation Yet the most that is said of them is that they serued God neuer the worse by reason of their Marriage Againe M. Ievvel defeÌ„deth after his manner but fevv partes of the Apologie whereas I answered to euery parte of your Apologie in this place you defende but one thing by me confuted Neither to say the truth doo you defende the same but say what you were hable to shew some colour of a Defence This argueth that the other thinges you brought are fully confuted For elles why did you not defende them And this muche is the Reader here to be warned of by the waie That whereas most
commonly I answere to euery thing by the Apologie obiected vnto the Catholikes in your preteÌ„sed Defence you laie much of my ConfutatioÌ„ together and in your Answere either you touch no point by me confuted or very few pointes but fil your booke with new matter not perteining to the defence of that which is confuted taken as it seemeth out of the stoare of your Notebookes which Illyricus Frier Bale and certaine others of that cutte haue made to your hande Touching this present matter you would if you wist how persuade the worlde by the example of Gregorie Nazianzenes Father that a Bishop is not only not letted or hindred from doing that which belongeth to his duetie by hauing a wife but also muche holpen and that for being marrried he is the better hable to discharge the seruice of a Bishop To proue this you allege muche out of S. Gregorie Nazianzene in Epitaphie patris In vvhat respecte saith Nazianzen of his Mother that she vvas to his Father a leader c. And the wordes whiche you allege be there in deede Which wordes reporte that S. Gregorie Nazianzenes Mother was to his Father a helper a guide a Leader a Capitaine by worde and by deede training him vnto the best yea further that in Religion and godlinesse she was not ashamed to becomme his Maistresse Al this is true M. Iewel I confesse and yet it proueth not your purpose at al. How so M. Iewels falshed discouered Marke Reader and consider of it wel how M Iewel begyleth thee Gregorie Nazianzen hereof saith he that is of the helpe that his Father being the Bishoppe of Nazianzum had by his wife writeth thus Illa c. Here lyeth the deceite in that he maketh S. Gregorie Nazianzenes Father Bishop of Nazianzum when he had suche helpe of his mother as though it were credible that a Bishoppe should be taught of his wife how to teache his flocke the doctrine of our Religion If S. Gregorie Nazianzene had meant thus he had made his Father but a simple Bishop It is a weake flocke they say of sheepe where a Yew beareth the belle So truely it must be an infortunate Dioces where the Bishop is his Wiues scholare Gregorie NaziaÌ„zeÌ„ expounded Now Reader al these great crakes that M. Iewel vttereth here so liberally in thy iudgement must come to naught when thou vnderstandest the truth of this matter Thus then it is Gregorie the elder S. Gregorie Nazianzenes Father was a married man long before he was Bisshop and before he was married vnto his wife and also long after he was in Infidel She S. Gregories mother contrariwise was a Christian woman borne of Christian parentes and descended of a stocke that had ben Christian of long time Her learned sonne speaking of her 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. fol. 124. a. Aldi Hypsistarij vvhat menne they were in comparison of his Father saith that she was not taken out of the wilde Oliue and engraffed into the good Oliue as he was But that she had vertue and the true faith of Christe as by auncient inheretance from her godly forefathers Of him he saith that he was a branche of a Roote that was not to be praised that was not disposed to godlines that was not planted in the howse of God Touching the religion that he was of speaking more particularly of him he saith that he was one of them who were named Hypsistarij of whom I haue not readde but in S. Gregorie Nazianzene These Hypsistarij as he describeth them were neither altogether Heathens nor Iewes but as a man following S. Gregorie might terme them mongrels betwen both For as he saith of the Heathnish errour they exchewed Idolles and Sacrifices and yet honoured the Fier and Lampes and of Moyses lawe they had in reuerence the Saboth daie and vsed the Iewish superstition about certaine meates but Circumcision they vtterly refused Suche a one touching Religion was this Gregorie Now that vertuous and holy woman his wife on the other side taking great thought for her husband â—nd as her sonne writeth hauing great griefe at harte that being yoked together in wedlocke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they drewe not one waie together through diuersitie of faith that she was vnited vnto God but in respecte of halfe that the copulation of the spirite was not ioined with the bodily copulation being most desirous to remedie this and yâ—â— not being â—â—ble to bring it to passe she fâ—l downe saith hâ— befoâ—â— God daie and night she besought and craued of him the saluation of her husband with muche fasting and with many teares Withal she was instant vpon her husband to come to the Christian faith she vsed al the waies she could deuise whereby to winne him * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Gregorie the Fathers Vision with chidinges saith he with admonitions with * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Gregorie the Fathers Vision kinde and louing seruices with tokens of displeasure To be shorte * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Gregorie the Fathers Vision it coulde no otherwise be saith he but that the droppe of water with continual falling should at length make a hole in the stoane and that the thing in time should be brought to passe that was so earnestly intended There then speaking particularly of the meanes by which Gods prouidence brough him to Saluation and to become a Christian man among other thinges he saith that his Father was muche furthered with a vision in a dreame wherewith saith he God oftentimes benefiteth 〈…〉 soule which he accompteth worthy to be saued It seemed vnto him in his dreame that he sange that verse of Dauid the Prophete Laetatus sum in ijs quae dicta sunt mihi in demum Domini ibimus Psal 121. that is to saye as he vttereth it out of the seuenty Interpreters It reioised me to heare them that said vnto me Come on let vs goe into the howse of our Lord. This vision he tolde his wife She being very glad of it as hauing assured hope that her long praier and desire was heard interpreting it to the best sense and signifying vnto him how great fauour God shewed vnto him made al the haste she could possibly that he were Christened fearing as her sonne writeth lest by differring some thing might happen in the meane while that should be a hinderance to that blessed calling and defeit al 〈◊〉 she had so much and so long gonne about to bring to affecte To be shorte within a while after she founde the meane that he was Christened by the holy Father Leontius Bishop of that Dioces at what time out of al coaster of the worlde the Bishoppes repaired to Nicaea there to holde a General Councel to the condemnation of the heresie of Arius After this he liued a holy life and at length by Gods prouidence he was promoted vnto the bishoprike of Naziâ—nzum This much is though in a farre larger
Gods minister to see iustice ministred and the Violences and iniuries of his Lieutenantes and Officers pounished and these ciuil causes of Felonie Murder and Rape to be truely and thoroughly examined ad vindictam malorum to the reuenge of malefactours wrote his letters to al them that had ben at the foresaid conuenticle at Tyrus and required them to appeare before him as before the syncere minister of God and to render accompte of their dealing against Athanasius in those Ciuil cases Of this mater See the Returne Art 4. Item the Countreblast lib. 2 Cap. 2. 3 For he might wel doo it and nothing further M. Iewel in proufe of his desperate cause that a Bishoppe was conuented in maters of Faith and ecclesiastical causes before the Ciuil Magistrate as his lawful and ordinarie Iudge Iewel Pag. 638. Iustinian the Emperour in the lavve that he maketh touching the publique praiers of the Churche saith thus we commaunde al Bishoppes and Priestes to minister the holy oblation Authentica constit 123. and the prayer at the holy Baptisme not vnder silence but with suche voice as maie be heard of the faithful people to thintente the hartes of the hearers maie be stirred to more Deuotion c. Aftervvarde he addeth further And let the holy Priestes vnderstand that if they neglecte any of these thinges they shal make answere therefore at the dreadful iudgement of the great God and our Sauiour Iesus Christe And yet neuerthelesse we our selues vnderstanding the same wil not passe it ouer nor leaue it vnpounished Hereby vve see that Godly princes maie summone Bishoppes to appeare before them euen in causes Ecclesiastical to receiue such pounischement as they haue deserued Harding For answere to this or any thinge that you can bring out of Iustinian for breuities sake I referre you to Iustinian him selfe By whose constitutions and Godly lawes it maie easily appeare how farre he was from claiming superioritie ouer Bishoppes or gouernment as supreme iudge in causes Ecclesiastical as he who decreed according to the definitions of the 4. general Councelles that in Spiritual causes the Pope of the elder Rome should be taken for the chiefe of al Priestes and aduertised Pope Iohn that there should be nothing moued perteining to the state of the Churche but that he would signifie it to his Holinesse being Heade of al Churches and declared that in all his Lawes and dooinges for matters Ecclesiastical he gaue place to the holy Canons made by the Fathers and willed that when any Ecclesiastical matter were moued his Laie officers should not intermelde but suffer the Bishoppes to ende it according to the Canons In this very Constitution whiche you haue alleged with these special wordes he committeth the Iudgement and pounishment of al sortes of offences committed by them of the Clergie to such as the Canons haue put in authoritie Authentica constit 123. Thus he decreeth Quotiescunque aliquis vel Sacerdotum vel Clericorum vel Praesulum vel Monachorum vel de fide vel de turpi vita vel quòd contra sacros aliquid Canones peregerit accusatus fuerit si quidem is qui accusatus Episcopus fuerit huius Metropolitanus ea quae proferentur examinato Si verò Metropolitanus beatissimus Archiepiscopus sub quo censetur si Presbyter aut Diaconus aut alius Clericus aut Praesul Monasterij aut Monachus Religiosissimus Episcopus sub quo hi censentur delata in accusationem examinato veritate cōprobata vnusquisque pro modo delicti Canonicis censuris subijcitor iudicio eius qui causae examinationem accommodat As often as any either of the Priestes or of the Clerkes or of the Prelates or of the Monkes is accused either of faith or of filthy life or that he hath done ought against the holy Canons in case he that is accused be a Bishop let his Metropolitane examine the thinges that shal be laid to his charge if he be a Metropolitan let the Archebishop vnder whom he is haue the examination If he be a Priest or a Deacon or some other Clerke or a Prelate of a Monasterie or some Monke let the Bishop vnder whose iurisdiction they are examine the thinges that be laid in accusation And when the truth is tried out let euery one abide the Censures of the Canons for the rate of the faulte by the iudgement of him that sitteth vpon the examination of the matter Againe how farre he was from the minde and wil that Bishops or any other whatsouer Ecclesiastical personnes should be summoned to appeare before him or his temporal officers in iudgement for any Ecclesiastical cause this expresse Decree which there also ye might haue founde sufficiently witnesseth Si Ecclesiasticum negotium sit nullam Communionem habento Ciuiles Magistratus cum ea disceptatione sed Religiosissimi Episcopi secundùm sacros Canones negotio finem imponunto If the matter be Ecclesiastical that is to be iudged let the Ciuile Magistrates haue nothing to doo with it But let the most Religious Bishoppes make an ende of it according to the holy Canons By these as also by the purporte of sundrie other Iustinians constitutions ordinances and decrees al menne maie see that he neither chalenged any supreme dominion ouer Bishops and Priestes in Ecclesiastical causes nor enacted this nor any other lawe as chiefe Gouernour of the Churche but followed the holy Councels and willed the Canons to take place and confirmed that which was decreed by them For special answer then to this special obiection made out of the 123 constitution I saie that Iustinian threatned to pounishe them with the seueritie of temporal lawes who would not be conteined in their duetie by Ecclesiastical discipline and order of the Canons that feare might force where loue and conscience could not binde Which policie we doo not mislike seing Duo vincula fortius ligant two bondes binde faster then one To be shorte Iustinian leaueth the correction of Clerkes offending in any thing against the Canons to the cēsures of the Canons And if any refuse to abide the order appointed by the Canons and vtterly shake of the yoke of the Canons then that is to say in the case of extreme stubbornesse and contempte of the Canons like a Godly prince he threateneth reuenge and pounishment In which case the Church doth now cal and alwaies hath called for the aide of the Seculare Arme against those that vtterly refuse to be corrected by the censures of the Church and seeme incorrigible So neither by the lawes of Iustinian neither by the example of Brunichildis neither by the Gloses that you so solemnely allege it can not be seene that Godly Princes might euer summone Bishops to appeare before them to receiue any pounishment at their handes as their superiours and supreme gouernours in ecclesiastical causes Peraduenture if we put on eyes of better sighte we maie see it hereafter if wee diligently attende what you saie Foorth therefore M. Iewel Iewel Pag. 638.
The Emperour Constantinus in his letters to the people of Nicomodia Theodorit li. 1. c. 19. speaking of the vvilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes saith thus Illorum temeraria praesumptio mea hoc est ministri Christi manu coercebitur Their rashe attemptes shal be repressed by my hande that is to saie by the hande of Christes seruant August cōtra epist Parme. li. 1. cap. 7. So likevvise S. Augustine saith to the Donatistes An fortè de religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator Cur ergo ad Imperatorem legati vestri venerant Is it not lavvful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie shoulde pronounce in a case of Religion VVherefore then vvent your ovvne Ambassadours to the Emperour Harding If you had said M. Iewel that Constantinus in his epistle to the Nicomedians had threatned to pounishe Bishoppes and Priestes that were Arians that is cursed and abominable heretiques you had in some parte said the truthe But where you saie that he spake of the wilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes and adde not Arian Priestes and Arian Bishoppes you conceele parte of the true Storie and declare your malicious hart against Priestes and Bishoppes But to leaue that cankred spite of yours to the iudgement of God why doo ye not report the Emperours wordes as they are in your authour Theodoritus M. Ievvels corruptiō Wil you neuer leaue this your accustomed vile corruption Theodoritus saith not as you reporte but thus Theodorit lib. 1. cap. 19. Quòd si quis audacter inconsultéque ad memoriam laudē pestium illarū exarserit illius statim audacia ministri Dei hoc est mea executione coercebitur If any man be inflamed boldely and incircumspectly at the remembrance and cōmendation of those wicked and pestilent heretiques his boldenes shal be repressed straightwaie by execution done by me that am the minister of God And these threatning wordes of the Emperour are to be referred to the people of Nicodemia for to them the epistle was directed And hauing tēporal iurisdiction as power of life and death ouer them he put that terrour into their hartes that they should be neither in loue nor in admiration of those accursed Bishoppes whom he had bannished for the Arian heresie Or if M. Iewel wil haue those wordes of the Emperour to be referred as wel to the Bishoppes and Priestes as to the laie people Let him vnderstand that as it is lawful for any Prince to pounish heretiques that are excommunicate by the Churche and deliuered to the secular power be they Bishoppes or priestes So it was lawful for Constantine to pounishe these wicked Arian Bishoppes excommunicated and accused by the. 318. Bishoppes in the Councel of Nice And as the prince that now as an executour of Iustice pounisheth heretikes by death is not for that cōsideration neither iudge in causes of heresie nor supreme gouernour of the Churche So Constantine at that time had no iurisdiction ouer Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes albeit he bannished them and threatned them other pounishmēt if they fel in loue of those cursed Arians For the princes threatning of pounishment for heresie is no argument to build a superioritie in ecclesiastical causes As for the place whiche you bring out of S. Augustine you brought it before in your Replie to proue that Emperours might receiue Appeales in ecclesiastical causes Art 4. fol. 104. 105 106. And a sufficient answere was made vnto it in the Returne of Vntruthes vpon you Why conceele you that If you had ben studious of the truthe for Goddes sake you should haue yelded vnto it or if you had iudged it false haue confuted it and not let it passe in silence and now trouble the Reader with the same stuffe againe But peraduenture you wil saie that you neuer sawe that booke and therefore that you dissemble not the answer If it were credible that you would not see a booke written directely against you and one that toucheth you so neare this excuse were tolerable But seing it hath no colour of truthe there can be litle pretended to saue you from the gilte of dissimulation and hypocrisie in this case I answere you therefore as he did S. Augustine spake in that place against the stubborne Donatistes of whom Parmenianus was one whiche complained that the Emperour Constantine eos ad campum id est ad supplicium duci iussit commaunded them to be brought foorth into the fielde that is to pounishement And in reasoning against him he tooke aduantage of his owne doinges not as allowing the Appeale to the Emperour but as prouing him vnreasonable who for aduantage would appeale to the Emperour and when the Emperour had pronounced sentence against him would striue and repine at the sentence and saie that he being a temporal prince ought not to pounishe Bishoppes Like as if you M. Iewel hauing made the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche should saie in case you were condemned of heresie or of Simonie by the Prince Her grace ought not to condemne me in these cases a Catholique that flattereth her not with that title would reason against you and saie No sir Is it not laweful for the Queene to condemne you in a case of heresie and Simonie Why then made you the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche Euen so did S. Augustine reason against the Donatistes And bicause by their appeale to his Maiestie they had chosen him iudge in their cause and after said he could not condemne them S. Augustine vsed their owne weapon against them to cōuince their folie and said as you saie Is it not lawful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie should pronounce in a case of Religion Wherefore then went your owne Ambassadours to the Emperour c. But as the Catholique reasoning in suche wise against you can not be said by that to allowe the Queenes supremacie So S. Augustine in this talke against the Donatistes can not be said to allowe the Emperours authoritie in condemning of Bishoppes and other ecclesiastical causes For he answering an other Donatiste that said Augustinus epist 162. Non debuit episcopus proconsulari iudicio purgari a Bishop ought not to make his purgation before a temporal magistrate said If he be worthy to be blamed whom the temporal iudge hath absolued whereas he him selfe did not require it how much more are they to be blamed whiche would haue a temporal prince to be iudge in their cause By this it appeareth that he thought that Princes could not be iudges ouer Bishoppes Ibidem Moreouer he reporteth that Constantine who appointed iudges to heare their cause did it à sanctis Antistitibus veniam petiturus as minding to aske pardon of the holy Bishoppes for his facte And the same Emperour seing their importunitie in repairing to him as iudge said Optatus li. 1. cōtra Parmen O rabida furoris audacia Sicut in causis