of theirs how they should be receiued though it be not resolued yet can not disprooue them to be the true Church nor proue the Donatists to be the Church seeing there can be but one Where out of this Booke Cap. 16. I shewe that Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted only by Scriptures secondly that neither councells succession of Bishoppes vniuersality miracles visions dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but only the Scriptures Bristowe saith they are notes with the Scripture as he hath shewed in his demaund I answere whatsoeuer agreeth with the Scripture may well be receiued But the Scripture without all these is sufficient to trie the Church as Augustine sheweth therefore all the rest of Bristowes motiues might be spared if he durst ioyne issue vpon the Scripture only as Augustine doth but that he dare not do He hath a great quarrell of Augustine for translating manifestatur is proued as though Augustine saide that true miracles and visions lacke waight and fashion of iust probation If you call true miracles that are done indeede and not counterfeited I say that all such make no iust probation For God tempteth his Church by such to see if they will forsake his commandement Deut. 13. But those that be true miracles indeede are ioyned with the truth of doctrine which being tryed by the worde of God to be such confirme it or prepare mens mindes vnto it of themselues neuer sufficient to auouch true doctrine without Gods worde and therefore I will stil tâ—â—nslate manifestatur is manifestly prooued or shewed which is alone Moreouer out of Augustine Cont. Epist. sundam Cap. 4. I shewed that though consent and vniuersality antiquity succession be good confirmation when they are ioyned with truth yet when trueth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all Bristowe saith that Augustine graunteth not that the truth can be separated from them Yes verily or else he should haue stood vpon that poynt only that truth can not be seuered from those markes which vndoubtedly the Catholique Church had and the Manichees wanted And although he saide the Church had most syncere wisdom yet he saith not that wheresoeuer was antiquity succession c. there must needs be the most syncere wisdome Lastly out of the booke De Pastoribus Cap. 14. I affirmed that mans auctority is too weake to carry away so waighty a matter as was in question vsing the wordes of Augustine Auferantur chartae humanae c. Let mens papers be remoued let the voices of God be heard shewe me one place of Scripture for Donatus side c. Bristowe rehearsing the saying more at large as I did Ar. 14. asketh what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse hee thinketh he hath any vantage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it decrees Surely whether the worde be well or ill translated I seeke no vantage therof and yet if I should change my translations I would rather call Acta actes of the Court or recordes then Courtrolles as you doe But euery man may see what vantage you clasp at among ignorant persons by your false translation of Chartae humanae mens Court papers as though the worde of Augustine were not generall to remoue all mens writings and to vrge only the Scripture But the Church beginning at Hierusalem spreading ouer all Nations to the very last time which Augustine in all places proueth against the Donatists maketh much against vs in Bristowes opinion Nay rather against the Papists which restraine the Church into the Romishe rable which we affirme both is and was alwaies scattered ouer al the world although greater in number at some times then at other some seeing that Mahomet hath infected a greate part of the worlde and yet among the Mahometists we doubt not but Christ hath his members that neuer bowed their knee either to Mahomet of Mecha or to the Pope of Rome 3 About certaine traditions The oblations Pro natalitiis spoken of before Cap. 6. Par. 1. 5. I saide those oblations with other superstitions fathered vpon tradition of the Apostles by the Nicen other councels as Rhenanus witnesseth are abrogated Bristowe answereth that he speaketh neuer a worde of any other traditions Yet Bristowe confesseth him selfe that many of them are abrogated Cap. 6. Par. 1. 4. 5. 4 About the marriage of Votaries The two places one of Epiphanius the other of Hieronyme whiche I cited for the Marriage of Votaries Bristo we sayeth are about a matter which they holde euen as those fathers did But in deede they holde the contrary for they helde the marriage of such lawfull the Papistes dissolue them and say they are no marriages It is better saith Epiphanius to haue one sinne and not many It is better for him that is fallen from his course opeÌ„nly to take a wife according to the lawe and of long time to repent from his virginitie and so to be brought againe to the Church as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken hauing neede to be bounde rather then to be wounded daily with priuie dartes of that wickednesse which the deuil putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preache these are the medicines of healing Bristowe saith I gather that marriage is an wholsome medicine for such men Contrarie to that I confesse my selfe that he calleth it a sinne But he slaundereth me as he doeth often I saide Epiphanius doth count it an offence to marry because it was a breache of vowe but neither he nor I saide that marâ—iâ—ge is a sinne Bristowe saith likewise the Apostles tradition calleth it a sinne But he slandereth the tradition or Epiphanius the reporter thereof euen as he did me The words are Hae. 61. Tradiderunt c. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that it is a sin after virginity decreed to be turned to marriage They say not marriage is a sinne but by breache of vowe to marrie is a sinne For their sinn cannot pollute the ordinance of God But the wholsome medicines are penance reconciliation saith Bristowe And why not marriage I pray you whatsoeuer is good for the diseased is an wholsom medicine to take a wife openly is good for the diseased therefore marriage also is a wholesome medicine As for your distinction of solemne vowe and sole vow is a very bable Epiphanius speaketh generally of al that had vowed virginity To the place of Hierome Ad Demetriadem he answereth that they which of two sinnes will needes committ one they counsell them to committ the lesse rather then the greater But Hierom maketh no comparison of sinnes but saith to such virgins as liued incontinently It must be plainly saide to them that either they should marry if they cannot containe or else they should containe if they will not marry 5. About the reall presence and transubstantiation About these pointes I will not stande considering
with his censure was countermanded by many Bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They did countermaund him or gaue him contrarie commaundement to set his minde on things pertaining to peace and vnitie and loue of his neighbour Irenaeus in his Epistle to Victor shewing that Polycarpus could not be persuaded by Anicetus Bishop of Rome in some small things wherein they differed declared that it was not then of Polycarpus or him selfe otherwise thought but that the Bishop of Rome might erre The other example I brought was of Stephanus Bishop of Rome misliked by Dionysius Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5 c. sharply reproued by Cyprian accusing him of presumption and contumacie Epist. ad Pomp. because he threatened excommunication to Hilenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia thinking that such as were baptized by heretikes should be baptized againe Also Cyprian in his Epist. ad Quirinum saying that Peter himselfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiors Bristowe saith none of these denied the primacie of Peter I say they al denied the primacie of autoritie although Cyprian in the same place saith For neither Peter whom our lord chose first which argueth no primacie but of order vpō whom he builded his Church when Paule did afterward dissent from him about circumcision did boast him self or take vpon him any thing insolently or arrogantly that he should say he held the primacie and that he ought rather to be obeyed of newe scholers and aftercommers Here you see it had bene in Cyprians iudgement a point of insolencie and arrogancie in Peter if he had challenged the primacie of authoritie and certaintie of trueth against al men But Bristowe saith when there was no remedie but they must yeeld or be Schismatikes because Stephanus would no longer tolerate them they did like Catholike men for all their Councels conforme their newe practise to the old custome and quoteth August de bapt cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. 25. where there is no such matter also he referreth vs to his fift Demaund where he citeth Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5. but neither is it there testified Only cap. 6. Dionysius chaungeth his iudgement being admonished in a vision and that he had learned that not nowe onely but of olde time both in Aphrica and other places the trueth was receiued c. but of any constraint for feare of being Schismatikes if they dissented from the bishop of Rome there is no word The place of Hierome ad Euagrium which I cited Pur. 374. defending a custome of the whole Church against a custome of the Church of Rome Bristowe saith doth not proue a Church a rule of trueth and Christianitie without the bishop and Church of Rome because Hierome saith as also there I cite Nec altera c. we must not thinke that there is one Church of the citie of Rome and an other of all the world c. By which wordes he sheweth that the Church of Rome if she will be a member of the Catholike Church must conforme her selfe to the Church of all the world and not the Church of all the world conforme her selfe to the Church of Rome Where I say we beleeue the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour on earth but Christ vnto whome al power is giuen in heauen and earth Bristowe obiecteth suppose that one Christian King or Emperour should reigne sometime as farre as the Church reacheth To this impossible supposition I aunswere that one King should haue no more authoritie than euerie King hath nowe But Bristowe obiecteth that Kings and Queenes be no more named among S. Paules officers c. Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. and therefore as a Puritane belike I would pull them downe In the motiue of Apes he discharged me from being a Puritane by his censure but now he burdeneth me to be a Puritane so farre that I should also be a traitour as he and all his fellowes are To his wise obiection I aunswere that as Kings and Queenes are not named among Saint Paules officers so they are no Ecclesiasticall but ciuill Magistrates and the Church may be without them as it was many hundreth yeares Yet when Kings and Queenes are Christians they haue chiefe authoritie ouer persons and in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre as the godlie Kings of Israel and Iuda had Dauid Solomon Iehosophat Ezechias Iosias c. But Christ professing that all power is giuen him Matthew 28. signifieth that with good authoritie he might commit what authoritie he would and therefore biddeth all his Apostles goe teach and baptize◠and to one of them singularly feede my lambes and my sheepe No maruel though my ignorance in the scriptures be often reproued when such learned conclusions come from Bristowe Christ saide to one feede my lambes and sheepe therefore he saide it singularly and he hath vniuersall charge and all his successors to But for the Popes supremacie the Apostle saith expresly 1. Cor. 12. the heade vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie to me But who taught you to foyst in your owne glosse vnder Christ when the Apostle speaketh of the members of a naturall bodie wherevnto euerie seueral cōgregation and the whole church also is like If you seeke the head of euery seuerall congregation you must looke to the chiefe gouernours thereof but if you seeke the head of the whole Church the scripture teacheth but one which is Christ for one head vnder another in one whole body is monstrous But you thinke perhaps Christ as he is head of his Church may say to the feete he hath no neede of them and therefore it must be vnderstoode of an head vnder Christ but then you must remember that although Christ be most perfect in him selfe yet as he vouchsafeth to take vpon him this office to be head of the Church he is not perfect without al his members which is the singular comfort of Gods children Ephe. 1. ver last But Saint Paule Ephe. 4. as Bristowe saith vnder the name of the Apostles includeth the successors of the Apostle S. Peter whose see for that cause is called the Apostolike see in singular maner and their decrees and actes esteemed of Apostolike authoritie in al antiquitie This cause is a shameles and senseles lie for no antiquitie for 600. yeares after Christ so esteemed the see or the decrees therof Again what reason is it that Peters successors should be included more thē the successors of the other Apostles seeing this souereigntie of Peter is not grounded vpon his Apostleship but vpon his Bishoplike office as Sander maintaineth As for the principalitie of Apostleship principalitie of the Apostles chaire which he quoteth out of August de bapt Cont. Don. li. 2. ca. 1. epi. 162. haue often bene shewed to be vnsufficient to make euery one of Peters successors equal with Peter in
of the condition of all infantes which is not chaunged by baptisme although sinne be not imputed vnto them Wherefore to speake after your Popishe supposition of Baptisme that by the worke wrought all sinne committed before baptisme is abolished in baptisme what if the infant not knowing the mysterie of baptisme be angry with them that haue taken him out of his warme clothes and plunged him in baptisme is this no sinne But what infant can examine himselfe of this sinne And what can the examination of other men profite him whome the holy Ghoste will haue to examine himselfe As for the distinction of Votum explicitum implicitum he sendeth vs to Allens booke de Euch. lib. 1. Cap. 31. c. For how can we be assured that children haue a close desire to baptisme more then to the cōmunion Or how can it be proued That they haue any desire explicite or implicite to either of both the sacramentes If 〈◊〉 be lawful to imagine of infantes against all reason and without all scriptures wee may fill bookes with distinctions and deuises innumerable Last of all hee chargeth mee with falsification by adding because the councell of Trent saith that manner was aliquando in quibusdam locis some times and in some places But I pray thee Bristowe what haue I falsified the councel of Trent which thou affirmest that I did neuer read Thou sayest they that did communicate infantes were not so many as Fulke doeth make them Why howe many doe I make them I sayde that the Pope of Rome and all they that tooke his part in S. Augustines time were in this error that the sacrament of the bodie and bloude of Christ was to bee ministred to infantes And haue I not playnely and now also plentifully prooued it out of Saint Augustine where is then this falsification If I had not prooued that which I sayde yet there is difference betwixt falsification and a false affirmation And because the Tridentine councell sayth it was Aliquando as though that error had not long continued it is manifest that it began to bee ministred to infantes before Cyprians tyme and continued fiue or sixe hundreth yeares after Witnesse Beatus Rhenanus in Tertulli de Coron mil. where he sheweth that this manner was continued vntill the times of Ludouicus Pius and Lotharius and after citing these wordes out of the bookes of ceremonies called Agendae of infantes newely baptised Si Episcopus c. If the Bishop be present it must bee immediately confirmed and then communicated If the Bishop bee not present before the infante doe sucke or taste any thing let the Prieste giue him the communion of the body and bloude of CHRIST yea before the Masse if necessitie require By this Testimonie it appeareth not onely that this custome was long obserued but also that it was ioyned with opinion of necessitie so that masse should not be taried for if the infant were in any danger Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later tymes and not of olde and 1. touching the bodies of Angels According to the demaunde of the challenger which requireth any one error or false interpretations of the scripture made by the Popishe Church to bee shewed him I bring certayne examples of diuerse kindes of errors which are not the matters in controuersie betweene vs but such as if the Papistes bee not impudent they them selues will acknowledge to bee errors Now commeth Bristowe in this his balde and confusd reply and as though I were able to note none errors of the Popish Church but those which I note vpon such occasion willeth all them that would know the true Church to consider that these errors if they bee any are so fewe and so light that they may bee a sure confirmation to Papistes and a iust motiue to all other to embrace the Church of this time no lesse then of olde time considering it is no lesse but much more vnreproueable of the aduersarie Neuertheles as few and as light as these errors seeme they are sufficient if they were but one to proue that which I intend namely that the Popishe Church hath erred which being proued the surest piller of Poperie is broken and all the rest of their opinions which they holde against the scriptures the true Church of God when it is shewed that the popish Church hath erred will shewe themselues to bee errors which had nothing else to gayne them credite but this one false principle That the Popishe Church can not erre And touching the bodies of Angels where I say Ar. 60. the seconde councell of Nice determined that Angels and soules of men had bodies were visible and circumscriptible and therefore must bee paynted affirming this to be the iudgement of the Catholike Church Bristowe answereth that I misreport the matter for it is not the councells determination nor saying but the saying onely of Ioannes Bishoppe of Thessalonica rehearsed in the councell with an admonition giuen by Tharasius B. of Const against the madnes of them that ouerthrew the images of our Lorde his vndefiled mother seeing this holy father doth shew that Angels also may be painted But the trueth is as may apeare to euery man that wil read the Councel act 5 that this is a vaine glosse of Bristow to elude the matter After the saying of Ioannes is rehearsed in which this grosse error is conteined Tharasius the archb of Const. thereupon concludeth Ostendit autem pater quòd angelos pingore oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father sheweth that we ought to paint the angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men by which it is manifest that Tharasius approueth the opinion of Ioannes Would you now haue the determination of the Councel It followeth immediatly Sacra synodus dixit etiam domine The holye synode sayde yea forsooth my lorde By this it is manifest that not I but Bristow hath misreported the matter Where I sayde If this be not to induce an errour to make men beleeue that angels and spirites haue bodies visible and circumscriptible there was neuer any errour since the world began Bristowe pulleth me backe and saith Soft man other manner of errours haue beene defended since the world began I wot well greater but if any of them be a manifest errour this is as manifest as any of them all Yet is Bristowe so zealous in excusing this error that he shameth not with that ignorant bishop of Thessalonica to slaunder many of the most catholike and auncient fathers with it Basilius Athanasius Methodius yea Augustine he sayeth make a question of it In which poynt he sheweth great ignorance or wilfull malice For whatsoeuer is founde in any of those auncient writers sounding to such a purpose it onely by mistaking the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or corpus which they vsed generally for that which nowe in the schooles according to Aristotle is called 〈◊〉
their subtile craftie rash craze the concord of the bishops which cleueth together But there to plead their cause wher both they may haue accusers witnesses of their crime except to a fewe desperate men castawayes the authoritie of the bishops placed in Africa seemeth to be lesse which haue alreadie iudged of them by the weight of their iudgement condemned their conscience bounde with the snares of many trespasses Their cause already hath beene heard the sentence is alreadie pronounced of them neither is it congruent to the censure of priests to be reprehended by Leuits of mouable inconstant minde c. You see that Cyprian meant nothing lesse than to giue Cornelius bishop of Rome authoritie to reuerse the sentence of the bishops of Africa whose authoritie he iudged to be nothing lesse then the bishops of Rome or other places Moreouer Bristow saith that Cyprian doth also note in S. Stephan some little negligence but much more wilful obreption in those two lapsed bishops of Spaine Basilides Martialis who had concealed from him the trueth that in their supplication they should haue expressed which because they did not he saith well that their restitution by the Pope could not stand them in steed against their former deposition by the bishopâ— of their owne prouince This which so plainly maketh for the Popes authoritit saveth Bristowe you are so blinde to bring against it Not so blinde but I can see that you acknowledge 〈…〉 e Pope iâ—â—udgement of bynding and loosing may 〈…〉 re But what I pray you maketh this for the Pope you 〈…〉 eane perhaps that Cyprian doeth graunt by impliâ—ation if the foresaide errour had not deceiued Stephaâ—â—s he had full authoritie to haue restored those two 〈◊〉 apsed bishops But Cyprian sayeth not so you hearde â—efore what his iudgement was of them that were condemned in one Prouince that their sentence could not â—e reuersed in another but if they woulde returne to the Church they should there be receiued vppon their â—epentance where they were first condemned and in this 4. Epistle he sayeth Quare etsi c. wherefore although some of our fellowe bishops there haue been moste welbeloued brethren which thinke the diuine discipline is to be neglected and doe rashly communicate with Basilides and Martialis this thing ought not to trouble our faith You see that he reproueth Stephanus and such as tooke his parte for neglect of diuine discipline in communicating with those heretikes which were lawfully condemned in their owne prouince and therefore coulde not by any other bee restored As concerning the Councels of Africa Mileuis sayeth Bristowe the question between them and those other fiue Popes was not about the matters of the vniuersall church as for example matters of faith No was is not the Popes authoritie of you counted a matter of faith and of the vniuersall church although they agreed in all other matters But Bristow shameth not to say it was not about the Popes authoritie in receiuing of bishops appeales but what order the Nicene Councel had taken therein As though that counterfeit Canon was not alledged to iustifie the Popes authoritie in receiuing such appeales But there are examples you saye of appeales and namely of the Patriarkes of Alexandria and Constantinople but of which Patriarks to whom you shewe not yea S. Augustine him selfe you say vseth it as a plea That Cecilianus was readie to pleade his cause before other churches out of Africa Ep. 162. This prooueth not that Cecilianus although trusting in the innoceÌ„cy of his cause refused no indifferent iudges yet that he appealed to the Church of Rome and least of all to the singular iudgment of the Bishop of Rome but to all other churches And the appeales that were made in his cause were made to the Emperour and from the Bishop of Rome being once delegate of the Emperour to heare his cause with other Bishops vnto him the seconde time who gaue aliud uidicium Arelatense aliorum scilicet Episcoporum c. an other iudgement of A relate of other Bishops as it is plaine in the same Epistle But such appeales were lawfull saith Bristow by the councell Sardicense cap. 7. in the same Carthage councell cap. 3. whose authoritie none of those Africane Bishops did denie for the same Bishops were of it that were of the Nicene and Sainct Augustine chap. 7. did expresly admitte in the Canon of the inferiori appealing from their ownâ— Bishops In deede in the 3. chap. of the 6. Councell of Carthage that forged Canon of Bishops appeales was aledged which is nowe read for the 7. Canon of the Sardicense councell but it was alledged as a canon of the Nicene Councell and if it had beene a true canon of Sardica Councell why did not those Bishops alledge it as a Canon of Sardica as well as the other Canon of the inferiors appealing from their owne Bishop vnto the Bishops next adioyning seeing the Bishops of Africa and S. Augustine himselfe were so ready to yeelde to the authoritie of the Councell of Sardica Therefore it appeareth that the Canon of bishops appeales to Rome being first forged as a Canon of the Nicene Councell when it could not find any setling there was afterwarde foysted in the Sardicen Councell Thirdly saith Bristow these appeales were lawfull by the Nicene Councell also wherevppon you say verie insolently trusting ouermuch your lying LutheraÌ„ frinds the Magdeburgiens that S. Augustine his fellowes tooke those Popes with plaine forgery of the Canons of Nice and fetched them ouer the coles meetely wel for it Bristow will still defend that forged Canon for other there is none in the Nicen councell that alloweth such appeales As for the Magdeburgiens I neuer read theÌ„ but the report of the councels gathered by Peter Crab I haue read 〈◊〉 dosen yeares before I wrote against Allen. And in the end of the African Councel I read this Epistle of the councell to Celestinus byshop of the citie of Rome Domino dilectissimo honorabili fratri Celestino c. To our most welbeloued lord honorable brother Celestinus We Aurelius Palatinus Antonius Tutus Seruus dei Terentius Fortunatus Martinus Ianuarius Optatus Celticius Donatus Theasius Vincentius Fortunatianus and the rest which were present in the vniuersal AfricaÌ„ councel of Carthage We wold haue wished if as thy holynes hath insinuated by letters sent by our fellow elder Leo that you reioyced of the comming of Appiarius so we also might send with gladnes these writings of his purgation Verily both our and your chearfulnes should be now more certaine neither might seeme too much hasted and ouer-speedy which as yet had gon before aswell of one to bee heard as of one that is alredy heard Surely when our ho ly brother and fellow bishop Faustinus came vnto vs we gathered a Councell and beleeued that he was therfore sent with him that as by his helpe he had beene before restored to the Eldership so
appeale out of Africa shoulde not be receiued into communioÌ„ of any in Africa What the Pope of seruile feare is constrained at this day to yeald least he shoulde be vtterly forsaken of all as hee is of most it is nothing to the purpose But I am moste ridiculous in Bristowes iudgement where I alledge Socrates the Nouatian speaking against Pope Celestinus for taking away the Nouatians Churches in Rome and counting it a point of forren Lordshippe not of Priesthoode Thus the Papistes defame such as write plainely against them Eusebius they make an Arrian Socrates a Nouatian euen as he diffamed Saint Paule in the last Chapter with much pricking of bodily lust But what cause hath hee to charge Socrates with the heresie of Nouatus He alledgeth none at al neither is he able euer to proue the crime In deed Socrates liuing at such time as the Nouatians ioyning in faith of the holy Trinitie with the Catholikes against the Arrians Macedonians and such other heretikes were not so odious speaketh lesse sharply of them then of other heresies Yet alwayes he accounteth them among heretikes As Lib. 5. Cap. 19. Ab eo tempore quo Nouatiani c. Euer since the time that the Nouatians departed from the Church Is it like that Socrates was a Nouatian when he confesseth that they were departed from the Church Likewise hauing spoken of the diuisions that were in the Catholike Churche he commeth to speake of the schismes that were among heretikes and nameth the Arrians Nouatians Macedonians and Eunomians Supr Trip. Hist. lib. 9. cap. 36. Thus much for the credite of Socrates nowe to the matter where Bristowe saith he counted it a point of forren Lordship to expell the Nouatians c it is false But he sheweth the cause why Celestinus coulde not preuaile to doe any good with them his wordes are Verumillos invidia corripuit Romano episcopaiâ— iam olim perinde atque Alexandrino vltra Sacerdotii limites ad externum dominaiâ—m progresso But enuie tooke hold of them because the Bishoprik of Rome long before euen as the Bishoprike of Alexandria was proceeded beyond the bandes of Priesthoode into forren Lordship Finally that Socrates blameth the immoderate authoritie of S. Chrysostom he doth it not alone but other writers as much as he Socrates reporteth more of his seuerity toward his own cleargie theÌ„ toward the NouatiaÌ„s of whoÌ„ he was counted too much a fauourer therfore Socrates writeth that some iudged that he was iustly deposed Eo quòd multas Ecclesias Novatianorum QuartodecimanoruÌ„ aliorum tulisset haereticorum Because he had borne with many Churches of the Nouatians Quartodecimanes and other heretikes Trip. Hist. lib. 10. cap. 20. Last of all whereas I alledged againste the Popes supremacie the decree of the Aphrican councell Cap. 6. that no Bishoppe of the first see should be called highest Priest or Prince of Priests but onely Bishop of the first see Bristowe saith it perteyneth onely to the Primates of Affrica and concerneth not the titles much lesse the primacie of the Bishop of Rome But the trueth is that it was made specially to represse the ambition of the Romane Prelates and therfore in the end of the Canon as it is conteined in the decrees Dist. 99. cap. Primae it is added Vniversalis autem nec etiam Romanus pontifex appâ—lletur and let none no not the Bishop of Rome be called vniuersall By which it is manifest that his titles and authoritie also are commanded to be kept within their owne bounds and not to be acknowledged to haue any thing to doe in the Churches of Affrica by commandement or authoritie such as then was claymed But the Affricanes saith Bristowe as appeareth in Saint Augustines workes neuer called him Bishop of the first see but Bishop of the Apostolike see Although Saint Augustines workes can not bee witnesse howe the Affricanes called him alwayes yet what gayneth the Pope or Bristowe for him by this What if they neuer called him primate or Bishop of the first see for other inferior Bishoppes were called Bishoppes of the second see The councel forbadde them to giue any other titles of authoritie beside this Bishop of the first see it did not binde them that they should of necessitie call them by that title For it was sufficient to cal them the Bishops of Carthage of Alexandria of Rome of Antioche c. And that they called the Romane Prelate Bishop of the Apostolike see of Rome they gaue him no more authoritie ouer the Churches of Affrica then when they called the Bishop of Hierusalem Antioch Ephesus Corinth or of any other Churches founded by the Apostles Bishoppe of the see Apostolike Thus my Doctours for any thing Bristowe can bring remaine constant witnesses of my side against the vsurped and Antichristian authoritie of the Bishop of Rome 2 About onely faith I quoted Ambrose Origen and Cyprian for iustification by faith only To this Bristowe answereth first generally that hath satisfied these Doctors Cap. 8. Par. 4. that they meane a man may be iustified by faith although before he was a Christian Catholike he did no good works But he cannot so escape for they speake not only of the first conuersion of a man but of iustification vnto saluation of euerie faithfull man according to the example of Abraham and Dauid who both had good workes yet were not iustified by them before God but by theyr faith only And Saint Paule expressely saith of himselfe and all other Christians that were in his time that shal be in all times that the example of Abrahams iustification is the example of his and their iustification Rom. 4. Therefore his faith was imputed to him for righteousnesse and it is not written for him onely that it is imputed to him but also for vs vnto whoÌ„ it shal be imputed which beleeue in him that raised vp Iesus from the dead who was deliuered for our sinnes and raysed againe for our iustification I wish that Bristow in the next conference that he maketh after the reading hereof would marke this text with the circumstances of the persons of whom it is spoken of the temps in which the holy Ghost speaketh that faith shal be imputed for righteousnes In the meane time I must proue that these fathers speake generally of all Christians and the only way of iustification and not of newe conuerts only and of the instinct of their baptisme or newe conuersion onely but that they are iustified by faith vnto eternall saluation First Origen after he had brought the example of the theefe iustified by faith only bringeth in the example of the sinnfull woman Luk. 7. Ex nullo legis opere sed pro sola fide ait ad eam remit 〈…〉 ur tibi peccata tua iteruÌ„ fides tua saluam te fecit c. For no worke of the lawe but for faith only he saith vnto her Thy sinnes are forgiuen thee And againe thy faith hath
sacrifice is made celebrated with prayer as Hierom saith by the pâ—iestes prayers What are then the wordes of consecration And because euen the olde howse of those leuiticall bloode sacrifices also was Domus orationis the howse of prayer Therefore the masse is nothing but a prayer So is Tertullian answered Who would not wonder at this clearkely answere For I thinke no man can vnderstand of what reason it holdeth The last doctor is Irenaeus saying of the sacrifice of the Church Libr. 4. cap. 34. The conscience of him that doth offer being pure doth sanctifie the sacrifice and causeth GOD to accepte it as comming from a frende The sacrifices doe not sanctifie a man for GOD hath no neede of sacrifice c. This cannot be verified of the naturall body of Christ. Bristowe answereth they say the same Yea doe Bristowe Is the sacrifice you offer the bodie of Christ Yea doth the conscience of the offerer sanctifie the body of Christ Out vpon thee filthie blasphemous dogge if thou dare affirme it But Bristow asketh Wether any heretike canpleade by their verdit that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread and wine As though that were the question Yea or also the body it selfe and bloode of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall communion no lesse then we doe in the masse What newes is this doe all Priestes in the Caluinicall communion offer the body and blood of Christ as much as you papistes doe in your masse I thinke euen the same for none that communicate with Caluine doe at all offer Christes naturall body and blood and no more doe you although arrogantly and blasphemously you presume to doe it In the 25. demaund of Monkes where I say the olde Monkes were nothing but Colledges of studentes Bristowe saith in ouerthtowing of Popish Abbeis in which was nothing almost but ignorance and filthmes and Idolatrie we haue spoyled the Church of God of great vtilitie But he saith further they were votaries and so they be not in colledges of studentes their vowes were not such that could make them other then students they vowed to serue God vprightly and his Church when they were called and they in Colledges which hauing once promised the same forsake this holie purpose haue smale commendation among studentes I know in time superstition preuailed and that which first was free at last became coact and that which was of conueencie was thought of necessitie euen as true religion declined and in the Romish Church at length degenerated into Idolatrie and superstition In the 27. demaund of Councels where I proue that Councels may erre First by the prayer vsually saide after the ende of euerie generall Councel Bristowe saith the prayer is not in respect for any false decrees or beleeuings of their whole bodies but by reason of certaine ignorances and frailties of their members when in the prayer they expresly declare their feare lest ignorance hath driuen them into error which can be vnderstoode of none other common errors of this life but of their error in decrees seeing the prayer is appropriate vnto the Councel And that the wordes going before after do manifestly declare Te in nostris principiis c. Thee in our beginninges we require an assister thee also in this ende of our iudgementes or decrees we desire to be present a pardoner for our faultes that is that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error that to our perfect desires thou wouldest graunt a perfect efficacie of worke And because our conscience accusing vs we doe fainte for feare lest either ignorance hath drawne vs into errror or rashnes of will perhaps hath driuen vs to decline from iustice therfore we desire thee we pray thee that if we haue drawne vnto vs any offence in the celebritie of this Councell thou wouldest vouchsafe to pardon it and to make it remissible Who would pray thus in the name of the whole Councell which he thought could not possiblie fall into any error That I alledge out of Augustine de baptismo contra Donat. libr. 2. cap. 3. That generall Councells are and may be reformed the later by the former Bristowe vnderstandeth of Councells not confirmed by the Pope which may be reformed euen by the see Apostolike alone That was a poynt more then S. Augustine sawe But how can they be called Plenaria concilia full and whole Councells where lacketh any necessarie confirmation This is a shamelesse eluding of the Doctors sayinges For first Augustine includeth all catholike Bishops in possibility of erring in doctrine not excepting the Bishop of Rome then prouinciall last of all generall Councells onely the scripture cannot be amended as that which hath no error in it Where I saide the Councells are receiued because they decreed truly according to the worde of God and not the truth receiued because it was decreed in Councells Bristowe saith I might as well say the scriptures are receiued because they are written truly and not the truth receiued because it is written in the scriptures But I say the comparison is not like For truth is not so necessarilie bound vnto generall Councells as it is to the holy scriptures and therefore both the scriptures are receiued because they are written truly and the truth is receiued because it is knowne by the scriptures It followeth not so of councells that what soeuer they haue decreed is truth although the Bishop of Rome haue confirmed them Leo Bishop of Rome confirmed the 6. of Constantinople which condemned Pope Honorius his predecessor for an heretike whom you hould cannot erre in doctrine which is an argument sufficient to strangle any papist in either of these two blasphemous assertions The pope caÌ„not erre The generall Councel confirmed by the Pope cannot erre In the 28. demaunde of the See Apostolike where I bring the example of Victor Bishop of Rome withstoode by Irenaeus and Polycrates when he went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches in excommunicating all the Churches in Asia and yet Irenaeus and Polycrates with other so reprouing the Bishop of Rome were not heretikes Bristow babling about the cause of Victors displeasure which is no matter in question saith he vsurped no authoritie nor was so charged but that his censure did seeme to harpe to S. Irenaeus as if the Pope would nowe excommunicate all them that would not receiue the Councel of Trent it would seeme likewise to many who confesse he hath authoritie ouer al. But none of these Bishops that withstoode Victor confessed that he had authoritie ouer them or that he could not erre But contrariwise Polycrates chargeth him with vsurpation where he saith he will not be troubled with his terrifying censure seeing he followeth as he thought the scripture and ancient traditions of the Apostles Likewise Eusebius saith that Victor was sharply reproued of many and namely of Irenaeus in the behalfe of all the brethren of Fraunce whom he gouerned Yea he saith expresly that Victor
answered partly because Sander bringeth no newe matter in this replie but either such as he hath brought in the sixe bookes before and partly because his chiefe and most generall answere is nothing but a begging of the whole matter in controuersie with an affirming and denying grounded vpon his owne authoritie By meanes whereof in this one article he hath noted iump 218 vntruethes howe well and iustely let the readers of his booke and Master Iewels replie be iudges As for mee I will not examine them all but onely so manie as touch the controuersie with any shewe of argument sauing that in a fewe of the first I will giue the reader a taste that hee may iudge of the rest And whereas hee chargeth the Bishoppe for setting one trueth against another for falsifying of autorities for misconstruing of their meaning c as the matters shall occurre I wil not faile to consider them CAP. I. Master Iewell hath not answered Doctor Harding well touching the wordes of Christes supper in this article Fol. 316. The people was not taught in the first sixe hundreth yeares to beleeue that Christs bodie is really substantially corporally carnally or naturally in the Sacrament To giue a tast as I promised of Sanders collection of vntrueths I will examine a fewe The first vntruth is noted to be this Master Iewell said Whether Christes body be corporally in the Sacrament Harding answereth not one worde Harding had saide The termes really substantially c. are sounde in the doctors treating of the true being of Christs bodie in the Sacrament Ergo saith Sander Master Iewell saide not truely for hee prooueth afterwarde Christes bodie to bee in the Sacrament Heere the reason of this vntrueth is the whole matter in controuersie whether Harding haue proued in deed that which he intended The 2. vntruth Iewell saith in this matter hee is able to alledge nothing for direct proofe Harding had saide Christian people haue euer beene so taught of that kind of preseÌ„ce which is founded vpon Christs plaine words Ergo saith Sander hee was able to alleage somewhat But what I pray you That Christian people were euer so taught which is false that this doctrine is grounded vpon Christs words which is false also For what one doctor affirmeth the presence according to the article Harding saith the three Euangelists and Saint Paul Ergo saith Sander there is the thirde vntrueth for M. Iewel hath words plainely written c. But if these words prooue the presence according to the article the controuersie should be at an ende The 4. vntruth is that M. Iewell saith Harding vpon the wordes of the institution foundeth his carnall presence in such grosse sort really and fleshly in the Sacrament Sander replieth it is lesse carnall grosse and fleshly to haue the substance of Christs corporall flesh in a spirituall manner really present vnder the forme of breade then to bee in his mothers wombe as Marcion and Apelles counted it or to make a lye when he saide take eate this c As though the graunting of Christes humanitie prooued the Popish presence which is contrarie to the truth of his humanitie or that Christ might not say truely the Sacrament to be his bodie except it were after that manner his bodie His presence in spirituall manner we graunt but we vnderstande spirituall manner to bee otherwise then inuisiblie for manie thinges may be so present that they are not seene and yet be not spiritually but corporally present The fift vntrueth is that M. Iewell saith Christ vseth no leading to that carnall presence Sander answereth The word This leadeth the Apostles to that vnderstanding as if I say this is a Lyon it will followe vnder this visible forme that I shewe a Lyon is substantially contained c. As right as a rammes horne If I shew a king or a strong man I may say truely in some sense This is a Lyon For if I shew one substance and affirme another of it the speach must needes be either false or figuratiue The sixt vntruth and a forged lye is that Master Iewell saith D. Fisher saith this sense cannot in any wise be gathered of the bare words of Christ. Fishers words as Sander reherseth them are these No man shall proue by the bare words of the Gospel that any priest in these dayes doth consecrate the true bodie and bloud of Christ. Againe No worde is put whereby it may be prooued that in our masse the verie presence of Christs bodie and bloude is made Iudge indifferentlie of the words what lye Iewell hath forged Although Fisher meant that by the interpretation of the fathers and practise of the Church the vnderstanding of the Gospell is more certainely obtained then by the bare words of the Gospell But Fisher hath other wordes Non potest igitur per illam scripturam probari quòd aut laicus aut sacerdos quoties id negotij tentauerit pari modo conficiet ex pane vinóque Christi corpus sanguinem atque Christus ipse conficit cùm nec isâ—ud in scripturis contineatur which M. Iewel beginneth to english thus It cannot therefore be prooued by any scripture Here Sander playeth the schoolemaster and apposeth him What cannot be proued M. Iewel giue me the nominatiue case to the verbe non potest it cannot saith Sander What cannot Wherevpon is grounded the 7. vntrueth when Iewel saith Doct. Fisher saith the carnall presence cannot be proued neither by these words this is my bodie nor by any other But I put case Master Iewell woulde answere your deepe demaunde in saying that potest in this place is a verbe impersonall and therefore he can giue it no nominatiue case at all but must english it thus non potest it cannot If you will aske him why he saith then the carnall presence cannot bee prooued as though presence were the nominatiue case he will answere you he doth not so construe or translate the Latine but he inferreth that conclusion vpon Fishers wordes No worde is put whereby it may be prooued that in our Masse the verie presence of Christes bodie and bloude is made But your learning wil haue the whole speach following to bee the nominatiue I say let it so bee if you will needes haue it so yet Master Iewels conclusion is true That Fisher affirmeth the carnall presence cannot bee prooued to bee made either by laye man or Priest ergo it cannot bee prooued at all Yet saith Sander Howe manie enormous faults haue you committed heere master Iewell First Harding affirmed these wordes This is my bodie to teach a reall presence Fisher spake of these words Make this thing and not of these wordes This is my bodie This were an enormous fault if Fisher had not saide Non potest per vllam scripturam probari it cannot be prooued by any scripture but seeing he saide so this is an enormous slanderous impudent and foolish lye and cauill of Sander Secondly Harding spake of the reall