mastership and truly had you given this good example of selfe denyal we could have given you double Honour for we are for good Order thô against Mastership and for good Government but against Arbitrary proceedings nor let any think we cannot have good Order and Government so far as its necessary without a despotick Power be lodged in some to rule over us nay the Civil Constitution of our own Nation demonstrates the contrary for it allows of Order and Government but denys Arbitrary Power and if in Civil there has been this sense of Freedom to provide against Lordship and Dominion how much more ought we to avoid it in Religion where Christ our Lord is to be our Example that overcame by suffering and through Death destroyed him that had the Power of Death But again Page 11 Our Author sayes The Question is whether in fact Womens Meetings be part of that Discipline the Church admits of and to this the Author sayes 't is evident the Church of God generally speaking receives and Practices it Ans This is litle to conclude us when 't is considered that the greatest part of all Churches through all Ages and that in your own sense at last have been wrong and mistaken But to the matter if we take the Church of God in a general sense according to Address to Protestants Page 154 we may safely say she neither receives nor practices Womens Meeting for Discipline but we take it he means Friends and if not too much to apply the term only to them then we say the contrary saying must be as true as this and of as much force to determine the matter against you the Church of God generally speaking sayes our Author receives and Practices Womens Meetings what then But not speaking generally doth neither receive nor practice them in our Authors sense both parts make the Church tho not receiving this of Womens meetings by the lesser part hinders not them from being of the Church and we are sure the practising of them by the greater part can make them no more then who is this that dare for their mere Opinion sake divide by force and voilence what God hath Joyned together You know what Christ our Lord said that there should be no Mastership among his pray then deliver us from this yoak of Bondage which neither we nor our Fathers were able to bear to wit Mastership in Religion and we hope we shall be willing to wait till you are better inform'd Page the 13 our Author proceeds as followeth As in no Age the resisters and gainsayers of care and Order in any of the Lords Servants have passed without the marks of Gods rebuke so they that have contested and opposed the wisdome of God in his faithful Servants have ever fail'd of their purpose and have been finally manifested to have been led by a wrong Spirit and as observable it is that those by whom the Lord has eminently appeared and who were the first Instruments of his several dispensations to the Sons of Men have allwayes exercised that Authority amongst the People they have gathered and have constantly been preserved from falling away though some or other have risen up against them with that clamor as if they had set up themselves and were gone from what they taught or were or took too much upon them but what have they all come to read and Judge c. Answer 'T is clear that the genuine and direct sense of all this is to get us into a dependance upon Man under the Notion of Eldership and to perswade or affright into that Implicite Reverence as that we should not examine what is said or done by them but the receiving things presumptively on the vallue of others hath fill'd the Professors of Christianity with Ignorance as well as error as is excellently set forth in address to Protestants Page 136 and so to the end of that Head there wants nothing but application and that is needful because Example prevailes more then Precept Now that we may avoid that fault in our selves which you have so warmly and truly taxed in others we will as freely examine this Part as we have done the rest and for that end pray who are these Servants you intend and how must we certainly know them For truly as before if there must be a dependance they ought to be set forth and what is all this care you speak of Is it that of Maryes or that of Martha's That was so Cumbred about many things that thought Mary took little care and what was the reason but that her selfe was cumbred too much It seems the latter by this Noise and Clamor that is made about it 't is a part that may be taken away which makes those concern'd so sensible of it that they cannot let others be quiet that like Mary have chosen the better part But do you conclude or think that such as are dissatisfyed with Womens Meetings doe therein oppose the mind of the Lord in any of his Servants yet how should that be Whilst you grant those things are not matter of Conscience and that they 'r one in judgement with you in the Worship and Doctrines of truth what is it not a Doctrine of truth and matter of Conscience to believe true Prophets Again what do you mean by those words contesting the Wisdom of God Do you intend that Womens Meetings the matter in question was set up by the Wisedom of God to be practised But pray how can this be when you tell us that the things in difference relate not to God nor is matter of Conscience What set up by the Wisdome of God to be observed and yet neither relates to God nor is matter of Conscience What think you of it Is not this very strange and inconsistant If not pray explain your selves better But further you tell us those made eminent have been constantly preserved from falling away tho opposed but what came such to as did oppose read and Judge Answer Here you bear witness to your selves and what is this but to affright Us into submission to your pretences But pray how must we know those things for excluding the Apostles times and those before where must we read all this you tell of What do you bid us read and Judge and can not tell where or at least does not To be sure this is noise to say no more for it can not be to Edification Again what do you mean by those Dispensations he speaks of He might at least have given an Instance of what he intended which being omitted 't is like the rest more to amuse then inform us but will you allow those dealings of God with Israel in Egypt and so into Canaan to be included in the Dispensations he speaks of If you will 't is well if not yet t is clear to us they are a sign of Gods dealing with Men now in Order to bring them into peace and rest with himselfe nay what if we say
this Page 6 You tell us it is the end that allwayes constitutes the means and here you tell us that the increase makes the business and as business is that end therefore on those terms where there is no increase there is no business and where no business no end and where no end there need no means and 't is certain in many Places there is no increase since the thing came in question therefore as it is against the truth so 't is against your very good reason to impose them universally upon our Society thus to impose them is a wrong that you ought to avoid both according to reason and truth But further according to this reason that the increase makes the Service a decrease takes it away therefore where there is a decrease in stead of an increase as the Service is at an end we hope you will give leave to lay them by and we think you can hardly deny this for as in your sense there is not matter of Conscience Conscience you know cannot be pleaded to uphold them and if the pretence of Service be a wanting to what purpose are they indeavoured to be kept up except for meer Formallity The endeavouring of Unity there being the Rock on which all others have split But in short either your Elders that have exhorted to this of Womens Meeting and have used your Authority with the People for the keeping them up till you have made these Rents Divisions and Dissatisfaction did believe and judge that Friends was faithful to God without Womens Meeting that is before they had them or that they was not if they was not faithful to God did you think the setting up Womens Meetings for Government in the Society would doe the business What do you say Did you think they would keep out the Devil or baffle the Serpent Indeed if that was true things is much altered since the beginning But if you did believe that Friends was faithful how could you imagine they would not receive what was needful without force Pray consider is not our Principle universall And is not the Spirit of truth sufficient to lead into all truth Then must not every Man at least every Meeting know best what was Serviceable for them or what they ought to do If so what need we pray of more then recommendation Except you were afraid the Spirit of Truth would not lead into this Practice and why Except you know it was not a truth and if not a truth will you differ with us for things that ought not be observed as a truth Pray Consider of it Page the 8. and 9 You are pleased to tell us of the great benefits of Women distinct Meeting for Government For say you to confirm it two businesses is doing at the same time which say you in Country Places and Winter Seasons where Friends come 10 or 15 Miles to a Meeting must needs be very convenient and comfortable c. Answer Indeed You are hard beset to keep up the credit of your Opinion while such Lame Notions are given for reason for this makes Womens Meetings Serviceable where either they cannot be Practised or to be sure are least used for here you give short dayes and Winter Season to make them the more Servicable so that long dayes and Summer Seasons have the less occasion for them and yet every body knowes they are then most frequent And again as you make their greatest Service to be in Country Places where Friends come ten or 15 Miles to a Meeting they seem clearly to be of least use in the City if at all Serviceable there because Friends live near together so may take time to do that business they cannot in the Country when truly had not the good Women in the City found either more Service for their Meeting or less business of their own we believe we should never have been pressed with Womens Meeting in the Country to our dissatisfaction but by how much Friends live farther off one another by this rule Womens Meetings still are the more Serviceable for the farther off one another the less time to meet together and so stand the more need of quicker dispatch but all this proves Womens Meeting a very ordinary business for where Friends live near together they may very well excuse the Women because they may take time to dispatch their business themseâ—ves and then where they live remote they may as well excuse them by reason of the inconvenience of getting to go so that you see all this noise according to this reason is about litle or nothing But pray is not this reason at a litle ods with your Very good reason befor For there you made the increase of Friends to great Numbers to make the Service and here the fewness for the remoteness does demonstrate there 's but few but pray before you go further then 15 Miles for a Womans Meeting is the thing practicable you have already set on foot What! 15 Miles to a Meeting for Women and home again in Winter season and short dayes to which we may add bad Wayes long Miles and bad Weather for you have made no provision nor exception that we know of what think you of it on second thoughts You know you have told the good Women the matter does not relate to God nor is matter of Conscience so we hope you will allow them the use of their reason for if they find all the business they can do and goe 15 Miles to a Meeting in short dayes as above is not worth while or that they can do all that business if any better in their respective Meetings and perhaps with less Charge then this 15 Miles Journey would put them to and besides save themselves at home where they may be sure they have an incumbent Duty will not you be content What do you say If not pray may not we justly and honestly inquire if such as injoyne this 15 Miles Journey do themselves put it in practise If answered that perhaps such as injoyn it do not live so remote and therefore have not occasion to make the tryal then may we not still inquire who are best Judges of fact those that do not put in practice or them that have But what think you of it was not this Order made in some warmer Climate or at least for some that dwelt where Dayes are more equal Wayes better and Miles not so long as in many parts of England But indeed too much of this if it had not been to shew the frivolousness of your reason and therein the meanness of the cause that you have caused contention about Page the 9 you tell us those are your reasons and Motives to the present Practice of Womens Meeting in the Church of Christ without compelling Conscience or infringing Christian Liberty c. Answer We have considered the weightyest of your reasons that we could find as above and do not see any thing that is offered that can
or raise any above it in the eyes of others but only that confidence in the flesh wherein so many have stuck and miscarried might be wasted and consumed that so the Lord our God might be exalted over all for he that is come is yet to come and as His goings forth hath been from Everlasting they still continue a Riddle to the Rulers and a Mistery to all that is but born after the flesh and what is flesh in a Religious sense but Form the external part of Religion for all that stick here as they are great in the formality of it so such never fail'd to persecute them that 's born after the Spirit because such being dead with Christ to the World and the Rudiments of it have not nor never had that value for outward things which those born after the flesh have yet alwayes brings forth the righteousness of those things It was thus betwixt Israel and the Prophets and betwixt the Jewish Rabbys and our Lord and hath been much after the same manner in the Reformation and is after the like sort now if you could but consider it but for all this we can allow of Elders and that in a good sense for some have been before others in testifying to Gods appearance in our day and have been made instrumental to turn some to righteousness in the hand of the Lord but what then did such find out the Truth by their skill or cunning or the Lord fought them out did such send themselves or the Lord sent such into his Vineyard If the Lord is not all owing to him and cannot you be content with what honour he gives without seeking honour by bearing witness of your selves for the noise you make bears witness you are not satisfied with that honour he gives he that hath the Bride is the Bridegroom and in the best sense you can be but Preparers for him and as you have directed all to him you ought to be willing to present all to him for his increasing must be the decreasing of the Instrument for every true Preparer for Christ does certainly know as he comes to take the Government they must decrease therefore do they constantly throw down their Crowns by affirming that their Service must be fulfilled to every one that comes to know the sufficiency of our Lords Government And cannot you be glad and rejoyce in this If not all is not right yet for all the true Preparers for him as they know this ought to be so they both seek and defire it but such as are so much in the formallitys of Form they cannot because they gather to themselves that is to their own Opinions and Judgments grant that you have Preached to us Spiritual things What then do you desire we should know you after the flesh for that If so all is not yet right if God have made some of you Instrumental to turn some to Righteousness and in that sense may be termed as Fathers do you expect our Obedience as Children But if so consider you are under as great or greater Oligation to us as Children you should neither provoke not require of us what we can not give for Conscience sake for it would be cruel to seek to destroy what you might be Instrumental to beget 't is not a telling of us the cause of Difference is not matter of Conscience whilest we know and do most surely believe otherwise beware what you do for if by your distinctious of what 's Civil and Religious you destroy the tenderness of Conscience or reject such as are Consciencious your Work must suffer loss by the fire which must try your Works as well as others and indeed it seems already kindled the occasion of all this noise is for the saving of what is combustible whereas had you builded nothing but Gold and Silver had you infisted upon nothing but what had been Essentiall to Society and good Order there would have been no occasion of this noise because then there had been no fear or hazzard of loss nay such things would have stood the tryal and com'd through rather purified then hurt But to proceed is it not sufficient for you that we can acknowledg your Seniority as above expressed and can testifie that it was Truth you directed to in the beginning but we must alway be under your Tutorage is it not honour enough for you that we can say that having come to him with our hard Questions whose Fame you spread that we have found the truth of his sujficiency even beyond your report and now being come to him and heard him our selves would you have us back again to depend on you Nay verily rather give us leave frankly to say we believe not now because of your word but because we have heard him our selves whose word is Spirit and life and by what he has done for us we 're sure he only can compleat what remains and if your distinction of greater or lesser things were necessary Page 15 and 16 we find he does not only teach the great things which you seem to grant as our Duty towards God but the lesser things also as our Duty toward Men which you seem to reserve and what is this for but that we might alway remains Pupils that thereby we might be at your Devotion but to be plain if that distinction be needfull we find he teacheth the lesser things first and greater and greater as we are fitted to receive them for 't is impossible we should know the greater and not the less or be faithful in the greater and false in the less for he that performs his Duty to God cannot fail of paying what he owes to his Neighbour and indeed to know this Spiritual Birth by which God can in a peculier sense be truly called Father is needful for every individual Soul otherwise our Title and Interest is surer to this World and the things of it then it is to that which is to come when that and the things of it as it is more excellent so it can only be more sure this being but the Figure and that the Substance give us leave to say then where the sufficiency of Christ the Son of God is known such cannot depend on you nor any Man and they that know not your Service fulfilled by him knowes not yet his sufficiency nor is Christ yet truly formed in them as they ought to know him And truly every one that confesses that Christ is come in Spirit and does not wait and hope to have your Service fulfilled as Instruments they have either taken up a false Rest or yet never came into the true travel And whilst you seem to grant him the greater things and not the less it is because you do not know the greater or at least are not subject to the Government of Christ as you ought to be bear with us for the knowledge of his sufficiency and the necessity for every one â—…w it that professes his
would be as sure as possible those can on whom he is to depend and plainly whilst you neither set forth our Leaders that we may query them for our satisfaction nor allow us Conscience to know what Men say is true you put us as much as in you lyes into a worse condition then those that 's blind who yet have liberty to chuse for their satisfaction to the best of their understanding how can you think much that we desire to be satisfied when the Leaders and Elders in most Ages in your own sense at one time or other have been mistaken and by their mistake have caused the People to err and yet might be sincere or in earnest for you know the Apostle Paul bare the Jews witness they had a Zeal for God but not according to knowledge and therefore being Ignorant of the Righteousness of God went about to establish their own and if we consider there 's nothing new what was then hath been in all the Reformation is still and will continue where outward things are over valued or Circumstantial things made terms of Communion So that there is no more said or done in all this then what mistaken Men and degenerate Churches may have said or done But to Proceed you tell us that Friends ought not to have now any more then at the beginning any other reason or measure of compliance or conformitie in matters relating to God then the conviction of the light and Spirit of Christ in every Conscience c. But say you there is this distinction to be considered well of that the matters in difference are not such as require such an exercise and conviction as is pleaded because they relate not to Faith or Worship c. Answer We grant that a distinction may be made betwixt what relates to God and what relates to Man but to make this distinction in our case on purpose to exclude Conscience in the latter is so far from being a right measure that it is really wrong and not only wrong but dangerous on a Religious score and not safe on a Civil First on a Religious score as this distinction makes serving God not to stand in all we do it makes it but to stand in some things and as this makes Gods Worship and Service not to be constant and continual it makes Worship only to relate to times and Places in the best sense this can but comport with a Legal Service and dispensation for it cannot agree with what 's truly Gospel as rightly distinguished and understood from what is Legal for speaking generally there is nor never was but two Covenants or States in which men are truly and sensibly tyed to God the first is that of fear the other is that of Love the first is that of a Servant and is a Glorious State and has many advantages but as it cannot perfect it is not to continue but is to give Place to the latter this is that which as it is perfect so 't is everlasting the first state can speak much of his Masters greatness and Majestie in the manifesting of his Royal Pleasure at sundry times and on distinct Occasions but as those appearances continue not so this State is but a Servants and doth not abide always in the house therefore does not equally serve God at all times but the Son's state abides allwayes in the House and does allwayes what 's pleasing in the sight of God and does not serve him more at one time then another as it relates to his Obedience for tho' the Errand he is sent about may differ according to the Occasion yet cannot be said to serve God more at one time then another because his Love and Obedience is equal Now to apply it For you under the Notion of Elders to conceive believe and teach as above that Gods Worship Honour and Service stands but in some Acts and but at some Times and Places as it must if we do not serve God in things that may be termed Civil t is true this sets up an Eldership by begetting an Implicite reverance to them but it is dangerous and pernicious to the Souls of Men for if once Men believe that Gods Worship stands but in some things and but at some times it prevents the looking and hoping for that Spiritual Worship Our Lord and Master taught which is neither at Samariaâ—s Mountain nor in Jerusalem below but in Spirit and truth and that we say is to be constant as well as every where again to believe this distinction that we are not to serve God alwayes and in all things this prevents the looking and hoping for the effect of that Prayer Our Lord taught his Disciples and us as we become his Disciples and that is thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as 't is in Heaven and to be sure that is equal constant and continual Further to teach that we are not to serve God alwayes and in all things as it sets God at a distance so it prevents the looking for as well as the receiving of that blessed Union Our Lord and Saviour speaks of and that is being made perfect in one through him by which God becomes all in all seen felt tasted and praised in all we doe what ever it is but believing Gods Worship and Service stands but in some things and but at some times as it certainly prevents the knowledge of what is above expressed so it sets up a false rest then which nothing is more pernitious and dangerous to the Souls of Men we intreat you to consider of this Doctrine for where the New Man is truly put on all is made anew not only the Heavens but the Earth also and there all is done to the Praise of God to eating and drinking and every thing else But on a Civil account we look upon this distinction unsafe for we know no Civil Government but that of Caesars therefore none amongst us but what is Religious and founded on Religious Principles in which Faith and Conscience is to be truly concerned in all we doe For without Faith it is impossible to please God tho we may men and this seems too much insisted on we are to walk by faith and not by sight for 't is the Just Man that lives by his faith and if he lives by it he cannot be without Faith in any act and live to God Pray mind that for Faith is as needful to our Souls in the living to God as the Air is to our Natural Bodies for the living in this World As for your instances of those things that do not relate to God Faith Conscience and Religion that is keeping the Necessitous rebuking and restoreing disorderly Walkers c. We say those things are Acts of Religion and Conscience or the Apostle James was out 1st Ch 27 vers and cannot be done acceptably to God without Faith and Conâ—cience tho they may without Womens distinct and constant Meeting for Government for if those
Acts above could be done rightly without Faith what hindred the Pharises acceptance For who did them better then they in the outward appearance But as our Righteousness is to exceed theirs so if those outward acts be done better by us then them they must be done in the Faith in the sense of Gods Presence and Power that workes both the will and deed that 's done to his Praise and this all Formalists as well as the Pharises wanted to do them in and they must needs want that Faith that gives acceptance with God who conclude those things are not acts of Religion and Conscience But to distinguish things into Civil and Religious for this purpose that we might perform what you are pleased to call Civil without taking notice of Conscience which being directly to please and humour you in your Opinions and Judgements what is clearer then that the Form you are setting up and striving for to the loss of Charity and good will is really to be and is a Form without Power Seeing according to your distinction it may very easily be performed without Faith and Conscience On this account pray consider if you may not as justly be withstood or turned from as those the Apostle speaks of We intreat you to be serious in this matter while Balm in Gilead may be had to heal our wounds and bruises that is to cure our Divisions and remove our Dissatisfaction But further You say did those things of difference require Faith or did they appertain to Worship as if you were obliged to Worship God only in some Place Time Gesture Raiment with such Words or Forms of speech c. your Plea and Objection was good page 4 Answer True Worship cannot be imposed for 't is a serving God according to his mind in which Mans prescriptions have no place because such the Father only seeks out to serve him and it appears that Gospel Worship ought to be constant for such as are Joyned unto the Lord are one Spirit and they that deny a constant Serving and Worshiping of God it is because they do not know this Union of being Joyned unto the Lord in one Spirit how ever the worship you mean and intend is constant or it is not for we would by no means mistake you if not constant it relates to our Publick Assemblies only and so to Preaching and Praying and such other Publick acts as is done and performed at those certain times and Places and because those things that is the present occasion of difference in a strict sense do not relate to those Publick acts for Worship in our Assemblies therefore in your sense there can be no Imposition upon Conscience by Imposing those things but then pray observe what follows and that is that there is no serving of God but in our Publick Assemblies nor if you please use of Conscience but when so met together On this account Pray why do you refuse to put off your Hats to use the word you to a single Person to pay Tithes and several sorts of Taxes for according to this Notion of Worship and Service those things are Civil and not Religious we do not mention those things as indifferent but to shew how by indeavouring to avoid one error you run into another But if we are to Worship and Serve God constantly as we say we are we ought to wait to know and be sensible of him every where and upon all occasions but we say this cannot be done without Faith for without Faith we cannot be sensible of his Presence as the Governour of our actions nor can our deeds be done or wrought in him without it well then if we are thus to serve God and this cannot be done without Faith then we say if the thing you contend for was really good we must if we serve God first know them to be good thus on this foot in your own sense our Plea and Objection is good because the Thing in Difference relates to the Service of God You explede in other Societies the impossing Time Gesture and Raiment in the Worship of God but pray consider if you are not doing something of the same Nature for you must grant that the Worship and Service of God ought to be constant or it ought not if it ought not to be constant you ty it to some certain times and Places and herein agree with those you reprehend but if you allow it constant the impossition of new things under this Notion of Civil is out of doors But further this Form that you 'r Imposing with all the reason and force you have is that to a Society that a Garment is to particular Persons it is true and as truly granted without any reserve that what is simple is needful in both cases for we can not be well without a Garment whilest cloathed with those Houses of Clay neither as we are particular Persons nor as a Religious Society but superfluity is dangerous on both hands for if ever the mind get out to think and conclude that it deserves honour and respect for the Garment for the Form's sake in comes those additions of superfluity from hence on a Religious score comes in Opinion and Ceremony and this to make it more Glorious and Beautiful that it may have more respect and acceptance both with God and Man and thus both on a Religious score as well as on a Civil Men grow proud of that which shews their Poverty and rich in conceit by trusting in that which at the same time demonstrates their want did they understand or rightly consider of things for as clothing to our bodies shews our want and not our perfection even so do Forms in Religion shew our fall and want and therefore the more we seem to need and are burthened with Ceremony the more our want and misery appears if we could but see it For this cause where this is truly seen and considered such content themselves with what is simply needful knowing by how much as they stand in need of little by so much they come nearer their first being and then such in stead of adding of Opinion and Ceremony to perfect them do wait to have such things fulfill'd as much as may be for Righteousness sake on this account we way safely say the less Ceremony the more truth and the less noise about the Formallity of Form the more hopes such wait for the knowledge of God in Christ which is life Eternal but to apply the matter the difference you make with us is not about what is simply needful to Society for you grant we are one in judgment with you in the Worship and Doctrines of truth and owns both the end and means of good Order Page 11 then pray consider If it be not hard for you to differ with Us about that which neither relates to the Worship nor Doctrines of Truth In short generally speaking you have allowed us formerly as true Worshipers of God without this
clear you of either for here is not one word brought that proves a necessity for the thing you have introduc'd and insisted upon to Dissatisfaction or that you have power as Elders rightly to bring into the Society against your Brethrens mind that which in truth there is no necessity for Could you prove either of those Points as before then it must be our Duty to obey and follow you but not being so brought in as it cannot be our Duty to obey it can be no less in you them Imposition and Formallity by which you indeavour whether you consider it or not both to compel Conscience and infringe Christian Liberty Page the 9. our Author proceeds to tell us his own sense by this it appears he told us the sense of others before at least the sense of others as well as his own which makes our application to such no less forceible it followes sayes my Author my own sense upon the whole matter of difference for that must be intended is a misaprehending of the Brethrens intentions and an undistinguishing Zeal against Imposition on the one hand that is on the side of those dissatisfied and a fear on the other side that is on the side of the Elders that those who so mistook and misrendred the design of the Brethren were either high minded and unruly or prone to indue liberty or that they not being the first promoters of this Discipline to wit Womens Meeting for Government detracted from those that were and so would lessen the credit of their endeavours c. I say sayes the Author my sense is that this on each side gave life to the Division c. Answer We must confess this is pretty modest of a Party concerned and desire you may weigh it for wee 'l consider it a little first as to undistinguishing Zeal against Imposition by this and some other passages in this Book it appears you allow of some kind of Imposition therefore as you are the Imposers it had been your part to have distinguished the matter before you had Imposed upon your Brethren that so if possible all this trouble might have been avoided but notwithstanding that you seem to attempt something about it now when a great deal too late yet we do not find it well done still 't is true you tell us we are not to be imposed upon on a Religious score nor in things that relate to God therefore if as Brethren we had been consulted that we might have agreed if possible about sixing the bounds of what 's Religious and what relates to God the difference now had been in a less compass but you have been far from this Brotherly way whilest as Elders you have not consulted Us as Brethren nor as Members of that Society that confesses but one Lord and one head nay rather have not you treated us either not as Brethren or at best but as Minors that know not our right hand from our left having no skill in the things that relate to God nor what is Religious as neither knowing Conscience nor who is Lord thereof And doth not all this appear by the determining the matter without our knowledge approbation or consent And have not you here directly trode the steps of a wrong imposing Church according to your distinction in address to Protestants Page 144 where you say an Imposing Church bears witness of her self she will be both Party and Judge c. And is not this directly your State For as Parties have not you introduced your Opinions And as Judges have not you determined the matter against us We intreat you to weigh the matter seriously for if this was wrong and evil in others it cannot be good or right in you for by how much as our comming together as a Society is more voluntary and free then any other People that we know of on a Religious score by so much is the point more tender and therefore any thing of unjust Imposition more evil 2dly As to our misapprehending the Brethrens intention in that case We believe we have not misapprehended them at all however shall be as Charitable as we can in the explaining of our selves therefore we say the Brethren might intend well to wit the credit of the Society and that others might be gathered over to our Form Yet all this does not prove but they was mistaken in the means used to do it for 't is without doubt that the builders of Babel a Figure of all the mistaken Builders on a Religious score intended no less then the credit and preservation of their Societies and to make their Mountain the gate to Heaven that others might be obliged to come by them away the Pharises was as solicitous in the like case and we believe there has been the same care and pretenses in all the Reformations And conclude that you as well as we judge that all those was wrong and mistaken and that their mistake was chiefly Ignorance of Gods power and righteousnes as well as of his nearness and therefore in stead of waiting for Gods power to preserve and his righteousness to adorn them they indeavoured it by their own that could never answer the end designed and truly we believe you are under the like mistake how strange soever things may appear to you 't is certainly the acting of your own Spirit in the likeness of truth that hath deceived you we would not have you angry for there 's no occasion to be surprised since you know beforehand we are Dissatisfyed and therein do oppose you now we must oppose you either as believing you right or wrong in this of Imposition if you should conclude that we oppose you as believing you are right you make us really Judges and as this will offer violence to our understanding we must of necessity we can not avoid it but know you are mistaken and do really want Charity this must cast off all accommodation for on this account the difference would be made on your part as great as betwixt Christ and Belial or light and darkness therefore to prevent your falling into this gulph all we can and yet without any flattering we must say We do oppose you as really believing you are wrong Now that wrong must be managed by design or through some mistake if we should conclude it really by design you might perhaps and that truly conclude us uncharitable on the other hand and two extreams can never meet therefore we do place the wrong you do on a mistake as above for we can believe you might intend well to wit the credit of the Society but we see those additions you use as means cannot do it nor lyes it in your power by any additions that you can make use of to preserve the Name The Name Quaker will lose its Lustre and Beauty as well as other Names for the glory of all flesh is but as the Flower of the Field that the gathering may be still more Spiritual as well
has done others forin that appearance he cannot be destroyed but as we come in to the Death of Christ to the flesh and know the Mistery of it We intreat you to consider of those things seriously and in the fear of God that the good will and love that is known in the writing those things may be felt and then tho much might be said about this matter yet may this suffice but if in stead of considering them you will contest them by your cunning then if the Lord see 't meet more may be said but in the intrim this may serve As little as this Book is many more things might be objected against we shall chiefly take notice of one passage more in the 11. Page and with it conclude it followes sayes our Author I would therefore beseech you Friends to ponder it in your own minds upon what a narrow point your distance stands and that the main and tender point is allowed you viz. Conscience is free and unconcern'd in the question and the visible ground of Difference being so small weigh with your selves by what has been what may be the consequence of this lamentable breach c. Answer As little as this distance is made by you we do not find it fairly set out we will indeavour to set it forth as it is without any reserve that we may come to a clear Issue with you in the matter and first wee 'l take notice how farr we agree in your sense according to your confesions in this Epistle that so a better and clearer Judgment may be made of the difference Page the 2 you grant we are one in Judgment with you in the Worship and Doctrines of truth therefore in those Essential Points we cannot differ in your sense which we desire may be noted for the future Further you say We own the end that is of good Order in the Society for that must be intended or nothing and not only so but you say We allow of the means which can be no less then such fitting Method as may answer that end Page 11. Thus in your own sense if you are ingenious in your confessions we cannot want what is essential to demonstrate our Duty to God or Men We own Women are concern'd in Conversation having Souls to save as well as Men we allow they may Meet apart from Men on some distinct occasions we Impose no new Oppinion nor obtrude any new Method in Discipline You neither do nor have any thing to charge us with that is Immoral or evil Pray then let not the Bear skin be put on us for the future let things appear as they are For on your part 't is clear that you make the difference to stand and arise from those things which under the Notion of Elders you have brought in and exhorted to we Joyn Issue with you here and say 't is true the difference stand here as to matter of fact or what does externally appear but we say our Dissatisfaction is deeper it is with that Spirit and Power that without reserve requires complience with what under the notion of Elders you exhort too it is here we place the ground of our Difference and Dissatisfaction We intreat you to be serious for we most surely believe that the allowing in our case such a power to Man under the Notion of Eldership begets and leads into an Implicit reverence and blind obedience and so directly leads into Ignorance and slavery And as the first is inconsistent with the true knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ so is the latter with that freedom we ought to Injoy as we are a free and voluntary Society Now we say had you practised Womens Meetings as believing a Service in them and only recommended them to be used as a Service was found we believe we should not have openly opposed hoping as the liberty of examination the undoubted right of every true Christian had been truly and conscientiously preserved by you things that had been wrong would have dyed of themselves but when instead of recommending you injoyn when in stead of leaving things to be freely examined you add all the force and skill you have to uphold them no way is left for us to stand clear in our Consciences to God but in standing fast in that freedom and liberty our Lord has purchased for us nor any other way have we left to indeavour to undeceive you and others but by shewing our dissatisfaction For to be silent here is to give consent and what strengthens wrong can never take it away Meeting therefore with this Power that is wrong exerted in this of Womens Meetings it s here then the difference must stand as to matter of fact and as the allowing of this Power does in our Judgment and understanding as above bring in Ignorance and slavery therefore we say if the things might be of some service in some places yet to Impose them universally upon the Society is wrong and we are in Conscience bound to refuse them as against the truth and distructive to our Christian Freedom as it stands in the Liberty of Examination and choice Therefore though the thing cannot be said to be simply evil in it selfe yet the consequence is evil and we are bound to shun and avoid the appearance of evil as well as the evil it self Thus the Issue of this great business must stand as stated Page 20. and 21. that is there must be a necessity for those things that you bring in against your Brethrens consent or you must set forth that you have a right under the Notion of Elders to Impose upon the Society that for which in truth there is no necessity For now we say in plain words there is no Necessity for Womens constant distinct Meeting for Government in our Societies and deny that you have any Power lodged in you under the Notion of Eldership by Virtue of our constitution to bring or Impose upon Us that which in truth there is no Necessity for First that there is no necessity for Womens Meetings as above is clear from the Practice of Friends whiles we had them not as well as from the Practise of such now as have them not and yet owns the same Principle Again the Practice of all Christians from the beginning demonstrate there can be no necessity for them in a general way as insisted on by you For if there had been a necessity for them to Order or Government they could not have been without them seeing what there is a necessity for is as Essential to the being of that thing But 't is matter of fact that they have all done the business of their respective Societies without this Mode contended for by you therefore we may safely conclude there can be no necessity for Womens constant and distinct Meetings for Government in our Society and indeed if things are brought in to the Society against the minds of your Brethren by which difference
arises nothing can justifie the proceeding on your part but a necessity for the thing For if this of Necessity be not consider'd in our case as abounder a door is opened to fill us with Opinions and Ceremony seeing there wants nothing to introduce them but a specious Pretence which never fail'd to wait on such as affect Government or reflect on their own abillities for it Now as there can be no necessity for Womens constant Meeting for Government for you to claim Power under the Notion of Elders to bring in to the Society against the minds of your Brethren such things as in truth there is no Necessity for this we say is a violence done to our Constitution as we imbodied a free and voluntary Society and is also against the truth of our Principle and Opinion First that it is a violence to our Constitution is clear for you know in our coming forth we did not choose any Elders to depend on nor indeed could we according to our Profession for as we asserted that Christ our Lord was come in Spirit to teach and govern us a teacher that as he could not be removed into a corner so he was only sufficient And therefore the preheminence was to be given to him in all things Thus it would have been a gainst his Honour and the truth of what we professed to have chosen any Man to have depended upon when Christ was come in Spirit to teach and govern to depend on Man to do it was to neglect the Fountain and chuse the Cistern therefore as we neither did nor could according to the truth of our Principle chuse any Men to depend on under any Name or Notion whatsoever for any to chuse or Impose themselves upon Us is wrong to Us and a violence offered to our Constitution For in short observe it is really Ignorance of the sufficiency of Christ to chuse any Man so much as Mentally to depend on But 't is Slavery to have others to chuse for or Impose themselves or their choice upon Us. You know as Christ our Lord was own'd to be come in Spirit to teach and Govern us we were to bring all our thoughts words and deeds to him that we might know the truth in what we thought said or did for we were not to be our own but his and as we were to bring our own words and deeds to him certainly we were to bring the words and deeds of all others to him in which we were to be concernd For as we could not know the truth of what we did our selves but by the testimony or approbation of his Spirit so 't is beyond contradiction we can not know the words and deeds of others to be from the truth any other way thus conviction or perswasion brought us together and that must be preserved still inviolably or we can not continue a free People examination of what we were to receive from others was truly asserted as our undoubted right in our coming forth and as the truth is but one the reason is the same now as well as then therefore to Impose an Eldership upon Us under any pretence whatsoever as it destroyes or takes away the Liberty of Examination 't is a violence done to our Constitution Indeed what is brought in by violence must needs be upheld by force or otherwise it will dye and come to nothing of it self thus the force and strife you have used to uphold what you have brought in by violence demonstrate you more wrong then any argument we can use when 't is but seriously considered that it is not Truth but Error that loses by tryal nay the truth only gains the most when freely examined and tryed and error loses most that way what can discover your wrongness more then the denying a free Examination For where that is taken away the prevailing of those things cannot be owing to the truth but the force and conquest of Men which as it is directly contrary to a free examination and choice so 't is beyond contradiction a violence done to our Constitution as we are a free and volluntary Society confessing but one Lord and head And as the bringing into our Society things for which there appear no necessity and requiring complyance under the notion of Eldership is a Violence done to our Constitution so 't is against the truth of our Principle Profession For you know the Lord from Heaven the second Adam the quickning Spirit the true Light that lighteth all Men coming into the World is Professed to be our foundation and asserted by us to be sufficient to lead into all truth all that truly adhere to him Now it must follow whilest we thus confess him that we truly adhere to him or we do not if we truly adhere to him we must according to the truth of what we profess know his sufficiency and where the sufficiency of Christ our Lord is truly known such can not depend on Man no 't is Impossible as in the Natural Figure the Moon and Starrs do shew us light but 't is in the dark 't is in the night therefore when the Sun comes thô it does not take away that light which the Moon and Stares have as to themselves yet to us it takes it away so that it is impossible thô we had a mind to depend on that Light or have any benefit from it and we are sure the Sun of righteousness as he arises in the Soul doth as much fulfill the Service and transcend the light of the Instrument therefore on this foot we are to call no Man Doctor Master Father or Elder on Earth by way of Preheminence for our dependance because one is our Doctor Master Father and Elder in Heaven and all such as are thus taught of him are Brethren Christ and his Disciples in the dayes of his flesh are a true Figure of this for he chose his Disciples they did not chuse him and as he chose them out of the World they was simply to depend upon him not one upon another therefore when they thought of depending one upon another by consulting who should be the greatest amongst them our Lord corrected their mistake and in them yours if you lay claim to the like choice by telling them the Elder should be as the Younger and he that rul'd as he that served nay he that would be the greatest among them must be Servant to all the rest then not Lord or Master to Impose upon the rest and as he told them they should call no Man Master Doctor or Father so he forbad them to be called soe and we are sure it was the thing as well as the Name that was intended whereupon it followes that to seek this Preheminence by desiring this dependance under the Notion of Eldership as it is contrary to the truth of our Principle and Profession so 't is against the very Sence and meaning of the Command of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ For this is
new Mode or Fashion and you do so still or you do not if you do by what rule can you in the least exclude us your Communion in thought word or deed But if you do not allow us to be true Worshipers of God and Members of the Society without we put on this new Mode and Fashion that you are contending for what is more apparent and clear then that it it is the Raiment or which is worse the Fashion of it that is brought in as Terms of Communion and thereby Imposed for us to Worship God in if we will be of your Society Look to it for while you are thus buthened about Ceremony or about the Formallity of Form the interpretation of what is writing upon this wall of Seperation that you make will be that you are weighed in the Ballance and found wanting Page 6. You say to expect complyance of Members of a Society to such Methods of Order as the Elders thereof have exhorted to and the generallity of the People have imbraced and which the Major part of those that Dissent declare they Dissent from more for fear of suffering an infringement of their Christian Liberty then on dislike of the matter it selfe this you say cannot be call'd Imposition upon Conscience because expedients of Order c. Answer That those things concern Conscience we have shewed before 't is true you are specious here but iâ— will not do for if it were true that the generallity imbraced the Order you have exhorted to which yet is a question if we consider it as doing it freely but if they have that is little for the greatest Number in most Ages and that in your own sense have through interest or an Implicite dependance upon their Leaders and Elders been led and perswaded to their own hurt again if it were true that the Major part dissent more for fear of an infringment of their Christian-Liberty then on dislike of the matter it selfe which we truly question as worded yet still their plea is good by what name so ever they call their liberty for if your distinction of Civil and Religious would hold which we cannot allow in our case for our reasons above yet if it would hold here 's all the difference we have now a right as Men as well as Christians and ought no more to be imposed upon by you on a Civil then on a Religious score you know those that command a Lawful thing to be done that have no legal right to Command it as it is wrong in those that Command 't is wrong in those that obey the first invade true Liberty the other betray it so that if the thing was good you ought to have a right Power to Command but in our coming forth we invested no Man with Power to dispose of us either in Civil or Religious if we did Set forth your Authority for till that is done we conclude you do wrong and tho from Religious you turn it to Civil you 'r still no better for English Government best suits English Spirits and the Lawes of England by which the Free Men thereof are governed are not made without their consent which is enough if but truly applyed to spoil this specious pretence Page the 7. But you that are Dissatisfyed Object why must we go before Women and why Women apart from Men This still Friends can be no Imposition as is before expressed because it is no matter of Faith nor Practice of Worship but a referring still to our External Order of Life Answer This being as new as any thing to the Objection you have made for those that are dissatisfied in Page 3. we may reasonably expect that the strength of your reason will be laid out upon it We desire you to consider it to is our Author sayes still this can be no Imposition upon Conâ—cience as before expressed but why we pray Because sayes he it is not matter of Faith nor practice of Worship but a referring still to our External Order that is such an Order and Form as may be set up without Faith and practised without Conscience for observe here is still nothing brought to prove a necessity for the thing nor that you as Elders have any power to bring any thing in against the mind of your Brethren for which there is no necessity as to that of Faith we have spoken to it before and therefore in short if we must receive those things you exhort to without Faith it must be to please Men and not God what is new in this Argument is your Instance that the common Banns of Marriage exclude not Women making their exceptions Very well nor do we exclude them where they are concern'd but what is this to prove a necessity for Womens distinct Meeting for Government in the Society Nothing surely Women are concern'd in their own Marriages and sometimes publickly in perticular cases and what then therefore they must be so far concern'd in the Publick Administration of our Church or State Government as if we could neither have Discipline nor Society without their constant and distinct Meeting to uphold us what 's this but by a perticular Case or Act to prove in general a necessity for them to be Church or State Rulers We will not say the Argument is fallacious but we may safely say 't is frivolous But again Why Women apart say you that are dissatisfied To which our Author answers and indeed 't is well worth observing considering the weight that lyes upon it much of the difference depending upon this modification and he is so far from leaving out any thing that may contribute to fortifie this Point that he tells us his thoughts and all We think sayes the Author and you think with him by the approbation of his thoughts for a very good reason well pray mind this good reason nay this very good one if you can believe it on second thoughts Well sayes the Author the Church increaseth and what then This sayes he increaseth the business and is this all that we might so justly expect to acquit you of Formallity and Imposition Indeed this is a poor sorry business to convince us that there is a necessity for Womens distinct and constant Meeting for Government in our Society whether you 'l inforce it under the Notion of Civil or Religious whilest the whole body of Christians never yet increast so much as to find that Method Serviceable much less a necessity for it But to make the most we can of this very good reason by following it as far as it is good for any thing suppose then there might be such an increase of Friends in some Places as might possibly constitute a necessity for Womens Meetings yet where no such increase is there is nothing to do for this very good reason therefore to set up Womens Meetings universally is wrong because it is set up not with respect to the increase for Service but the formallity of the thing for in