Smith and I have had an intimacy and acquaintaince several months and since Mr. John Smith swore at the Old Baily against Mr. Colledge and was gone out of Town several people have talked with me concerning him and asking me what I thought of him I told them I believed he was an honest man however I would not believe otherwise till I knew a reason of it They told me that he had sworn against Mr. Colledge that he was to seize the King at the Parliament at Oxford and that there was 1500 Barrels of Powder and it was to carry on a Presbyterian Plot Said I I will never believe it and the rather because he hath said to me often there was a Popish Plot but he does not believe any Presbyterian or Protestant Plot and said I further as to his giving in any Evidence with Irish-men I believe it the less for that for I have heard him often say they were a company of Rogues that had done the Protestant Interest more harm than ever they would do it good and bid me have a care of coming into their company and many other such things that Mr. Smith here knows to be true Then my Lord when Mr. Smith came home for I was very impatient till he did come home to hear every day such things said against him I went to see him Said I Cousin Smith I have had great confronts about you since you went away but I hope you can't be that ill man you are represented to be and truly I should be sorry it should be so pray Cousin said I I have put every man off with this that I would suspend my belief of you till I had spoken with your self what is the Evidence you have given They say you have sworn a Presbyterian Plot or a Protestant Plot a Design of seizing the King at Oxon. and of so many Barrels of Gen-powder that were provided Says my Cousin I did swear no such thing nor never a word of any such thing as a Protestant Plot or a Presbyterian Plot and pray do not believe it of me No said I I thought you could not swear any such thing because you have said often to me you believed there was no such thing I do not believe it yet said he and as to whatsoever Colledge said I did not believe it for he did not believe it himself And Mr. Smith told me after his return that he did not know of any Protestant concerned in the Plot. L. c. j. He does not say now 't is a Protestant Plot. Mr. S. Smith So far from that that he told me after his Return he did not know any Protestant concerned in the Plot. L. c. j. Mr. Smith thus I understand you You say that he said to you That he had not testified any thing of a Protestant Plot nor did believe there was any Protestant Plot for he did not believe what Colledge said himself So by that discoure it seems he did not deny but he had testified against Mr. Colledge but he did not believe there was any Protestant Plot Mr. S. Smith No my Lord he did not deny but he had sworn against Colledge Mr. just Jones Nor that what he had said against Colledge was true Mr. S. S. No my Lord but he did not believe him and he thought Colledge did not believe it himself Mr. Ser. jeff. It seems Mr. Colledge thinks the whole Protestant Interest concerned in him L. c. j. The question is Mr. Colledge what you had in your mind not what was in the mind of all the Protestants Mr. S. S. This I do say I would not speak more nor less than the truth he did not deny but he had heard Colledge speak those words he swore but he did not believe him and I think Mr. Smith hath said that at another time before Mr. Gardner Coll. If he knew of no Protestant Plot it was very unlikely that I should attempt such a thing my self Mr. S. S. My Lord I find Mr. Smith hath been very passionate and very inveterate of late against other men that he hath given me a very good report of before And when I was talking of this I was saying if it be true that people say of you a man goes in danger of his life to converse with you Mr. Smith said he I do not care for all the men between Wapping and Charing-cross there is never a man that will forbear my company but would do or say as much as Colledge hath done or said Mr. J. Smith 'T is true and I say so still Coll. 'T is a contradiction in it self That there should be such a design and none but my self to do it God my righteous Judge knows my innocency Mr. just jones You might say those words in hopes they would be of your party and made so by your Libels and poysonous Pictures L. c. j. Come call another Witness Colledge Call Mr. Tho. Gardner But my Lord how likely is it that I should say That I would seize the King when he it seems says he did not believe there was one man to stand by me L. c. j. What say you to this Gentleman Coll. I never saw him in my life Mr. Gardner Nor I you Sir Colledge I know not three of all that come here L. c. j. Well will you ask him any thing Coll. Pray do you know Mr. Smith Mr. Gardner Yes Coll. What do you know of him Can you say any thing concerning this matter that is sworn against of Treason Mr. Gardner My Lord this day fortnight I think it was Mr. S. Smith the Gentleman that was just now up before me sent for me to the Rummer in Queen-street to drink a glass of Wine where when I came I found him and Mr. J. Smith that is here whom they call Narrative Smith talking very briskly concerning one Colledge I suppose that is the Gentleman and the Jury that acquitted him and he said that two or three of the Jury-men were Rascals and Villains and says he they talk up and down the Town as if I did intend to Sham the Popish Plot and to make a Protestant Plot which said he I vow to God and I will justifie it before God and all the World that I know of no Protestant Plot nor is there any Protestant concerned in a Plot to my knowledge but this Colledge and upon his Tryal I believe he will be made appear to be more a Papist than a Protestant but says Mr. Smith to him Now you are known to be a Witness in this case it will be a dangerous thing for a man to converse with you Coll. Will it be now known that I am a Papist No man could ever say so in this World Mr. Gardner Says he I care not what all the world says of me and I do not value all the men from Wapping to Charing-Cross but that man that will shun my company will say and do as much to the King as Colledge hath done But
see Mr. Colledge do that was in the coffee-house not the same day but another time I saw him bring in a parcel of blue Ribband which was wrought and these words eight times wrought in it twice wrought in every quarter of a yard No Popery no Slavery I saw him â—â—â—l to a member of Parliament as I took him to be a yard of that Ribband for 2 s. and truly I was thinking he would ask me to but some too and I saw that Gentleman I took him to be a Parliament-man take this Ribband and tye it upon his Sword As to the other thing I have to say of Mr. Colledge that very day the Parliament was dissolved he had been in a quarrel as he told me with Fitz-Gerald and I was standing in the School-House yard and he comes directly to me without my speaking to him or any thing but he comes and tells me Fitz-Gerald had spit in his face and said he I spit in his face again so we went to loggerheads together I think that was the word or Fisty-cuffs So said I Mr. Colledge your Nose bleeds he takes his Handkerchief out of his Pocket and wipes his Nose and said I have lost the first Blood in the Cause but it will not be long before more be lost L. c. j. Where was this Sir William Jennings In the School-house Yard at Oxon. I never discoursed with him afterwards till I met him in London in Fleet-street one Sunday in the afternoon and I remember Captain Crescett was along with me And when he came up to me How now said I honest Joyner Says he you call me honest Joyner some call me Rogue and Rascal and I have been beating some of them so that I believe they will be aware of it So I told Captain Crescett I never met this man but he was always in a Quarrel Colledge Was it on a Sunday that I told you I had been beating of somebody Sir Will. jenn. You told me so Captain Crescett was by Colledge I remember I met you but I did not tell you I had been then beating any one But pray Sir William when I met you after the Parliament was Dissolved and Fitz-Gerald and I had quarrell'd did I say That I had lost the first blood in the Cause but it would not be long e're more were lost Sir William you are a Gentleman as for the other men they don't care what they say nor do I so much regard them but you value your Word and Honour These were my words and pray will you recollect your self before you be positive in the thing whether I did not say I have lost the first blood for the Parliament for it was upon my vindicating of the Commons and Dr. Oates whom Fitz-Gerald had abused and upon that the Quarrel began so I said when you met me and told me my Nose bled I have lost the first blood for the Parliament I wish it may be the last Sir Will. jenn. Mr. Colledge If you please I will answer you as to that I do assure you 't is the first time that ever I came upon this occasion in my days and I have declared it before and do declare it now I would rather have served the King in three Engagements then come in against you or any man upon such an occasion But I declare to you upon the whole memory of the truth the words were as I spoke them at first and no Parliament named or mentioned And my Lord moreover I will tell you when I did tell this story because Mr. Crescett that is here is able to tell you whether I did not relate the words within half an hour or a little time after Now I never had a prejudice against you in my days nor other concern but having told Mr. Justice VVarcupp this story I am brought hither to testifie it Coll. Sir William I am sorry you did not better observe and remember my words then Sir VVill. jenn. I must needs say I could not imagine what the words meant when they were spoken nor do I understand them to this day but soon after they were spoken I related them to Justice VVarcupp he being a Justice of Peace Mr. Ser. Holloway Gentlemen we shall rest here and conclude our Evidence for the King at present to hear what the Prisoner says to it only with my Lords leave I shall explain the words to you that are in the Indictment and tell you what is meant by compassing and imagining the death of the King The seizing the person of the King is in Law a compassing and intending his death and so it hath been adjudged in several cases as in 1 Jacob my Lord Cobham and my Lord Grey's case and several other cases and so you may fully apprehend what the Charge is and may understand the words in the Indictment That if you are not satisfied with the general words of compassing the Kings death you may know that the seizing his person extends to it Mr. Ser. jeff. My Lord we have done with our Evidence now let him go on with his L. ch just Now Mr. Colledge you may say what you will for your defence and call your Witnesses that you have to produce Colledge My Lord I have heard this Evidence that is against me and I would desire your Lordship to resolve me some Questions upon it I think the Indictment is for Treasonable practices for a Conspiracy now I desire your Lordship will be pleased that I may know from you and the Court whether in all this Evidence given in proof against me a Conspiracy is proved or if any thing appears besides what they say I said L. c. j. For a conspiracy in you if the Witnesses speak truth there is a plain proof and of the degrees of it First of all by your publishing Libels and Pictures to make the King odious and contemptible in the eyes of the people and that you should be the Author of some of those Pictures and they were found in your custody Colledge I conceive that is not proved Lo. ch just If the Witnesses say true it is proved Colledge They do not produce that they do but say it Lo. ch just Mr. Dugdale swears that at Oxford here you shew'd him the Picture you sung the Song here and expounded it at my Lord Lovelace's and a great many of them are found in your custody Then that you prepared Arms that you shew'd Smith the Arms in your House and having those Arms you said you would go to Oxford and if there should be a disturbance there you would secure the King And you did come to Oxford where you hear what is said for I observe Stephen Dugdale and Edward Turbervile speak of what was done at Oxford John Smith and Bryan Haynes speak of what you said at London before you went to Oxford and after you came from Oxford Now I say if these Witnesses speak true 't is a strong Evidence against you both upon the
be two Witnesses to the same words at the same time Mr. just Jones No it was the Resolution of all the Judges in the case of my Lord Stafford in the presence of the Parliament and the Parliament proceeded upon it M. Ser. Jeff. In the same Tryal where Mr. Colledge was a Witness Mr. Att. Gen. All the whole House of Commons prayed Judgement upon my Lord Stafford pursuant to that Resolution L. c. j. Come will you call any Witnesses Coll. My Lord I do not question but to prove this one of the Hellishest Conspiracies that ever was upon the face of the Earth and these the most notorious wicked men an absolute design to destroy all the Protestants of England that have had the courage to oppose the Popish Plot. In which no man of my condition hath done more then I have done I was bred a Protestant and continued so hitherto and by the Grace of God I will dye so If that they had known of these words that I should speak and such a design that I should have before the Parliament sat at Oxon. and be with me in Oxon. when the Parliament sat if they had been good Subjects they ought to have had me apprehended Turbervile came several times indeed and dined with me I did not bid him go out of doors nor invited him thither he was a man I had no disrespect for nay he was a man I valued thinking he had done the Nation service against the Papists that this man should hear me speak such words against His Majesty who was then in this Town and know of such a dangerous design to attempt the seizing of his Person or that I should discover a great party that were ready to do it I think there is scarce any man of reason but will say if this were really done and spoken by me neither of them would or ought to have concealed it but discover it none of them has ever charged me with any such thing they have been in my company since I never had any correspondence with any of them but Dugdale then pray consider how improbable it is that I should talk of such things to Papists Priests and Irish-men who have broke their faith with their own party that faith which they gave under the penalty of Damnation men that have been concerned in Plots and Treasons to murder and cut the Throats of Protestants that I should be such a mad man to trust these people when I could receive no manner of obligation from them nor could give any trust to them they having before broke either Faith especially considering I could lay no such Oaths and Obligations upon them who was a Protestant then 't is the greatest non sense to believe that I would say these things before persons whom I could never hope would conceal my Treasons having discovered their own If they speak truth concerning the general Popish Plot that could be no obligation upon me to trust them with another and they cannot say that they ever obliged me in any one respect My Lord I thank God I have had some acquaintance in the world and have been concerned with some persons of Honour Noblemen and Parliament men that I know are as good Subjects as any His Majesty has these never found me a Fool nor a Rascal so great a Knave as to have any such thoughts in my heart nor so great a mad-man or so foolish as to go to discover them to Papists Priests and Irish-men to men of their condition that were ready to starve for Bread As for Haynes and Smith that run so fast through all their Evidence the first time that ever I set my eyes on Haynes was in the Coffee-House that he speaks of Macnamarra comes in and desires me to go out with with him and I should hear the greatest Discovery of a piece of Villany against my Lord of Shaftsbury's Life that ever I heard many life This Captain Brown who is now dead a man that I had not known but a month before for I think it was in March last when this was could testifie for me For I came to him Captain said I here is a Discovery offered to be made to me of a Design to take away my Lord Shaftsbury's Life Macnamarra asks me to go to the Hercules Pillars I went along with him and took Captain Brown with us Afterwards he fell sick in April and is now dead so I lost a main Evidence in the case He was the only man that was by at the time God knows my Heart I speak nothing but the truth I took him with me Haynes began to discover to us that Fitz-Gerald had employed him to fetch over Macnamarra and if he would come in and swear against my Lord of Shaftsbury which was his design it would not be long e're his Head were taken off and he said He had given in a Paper of High Treason against my Lord of Shaftsbury I asked what it was He told me That my Lord should tell Fitz-Gerald that he had a design to bring this Kingdom to a Common Wealth and to root out the Family of the Stuarts This he said Fitz-Gerald had given in in a Paper under his own Hand and I think he said He had sworn it and sent Haynes to fetch Macnamarra to swear agaist my Lord the same things too I writ down all the Heads of the Discourse which Captain Brown heard as well as I. After he had said it he desired us to conceal it Sir said I You are a stranger to me and these are great and strange things that you do tell us Macnamarra and Browne and Ivy and others were there which if they were honest men they would come and testifie I thought them honest men and that they had none of those wicked designs in their Hearts that now I find they have So says Haynes I do not know this man meaning me Macnamarra told him I was an honest man he might lay his Life in my hands After he had spoken all this he desired us to conceal it Said he I will not only discover this but a great deal more of their Rogueries that I know very well Said I to him again I will not conceal it nor do you no wrong for if this be true my Lord of Shaftsbury shall know it to night for where there is a Design to take away a Peer of the Realm I will not conceal it but if it be false and you have said more then comes to your share recant it again and we will take no notice of it only say you are a Knave for speaking of it he swore Dam him it was all true that and a great deal more which he said he knew about seizing and destroying the Parliament at Oxon. about an Army in the North that was to be raised about the time of the sitting of the Parliament at Oxon. of a French Army that was to land in Ireland at the same time that the
well if I did appear on Colledges Tryal at Oxon. for it was a thing of great consequence the Popish Plot was thrown out of doors and no man was looked upon that did speak of it Mr. just jones Was all this in the presence of Mr. Bolron Mowbr No my Lord when he was discoursing about Sir John Brooks Mr. Bolron rid up to us and he applied himself to him because I told him I had no plaufible pretence to swear against him having no acquaintance with him Mr. Serj. jeff. Pray Sir let me ask you one question when came you from York Mowb. We set forward the third day of August from Wentbridge Mr. Ser. jeff. Pray who came with you in the company Mowb. Mr. Bolron Mr. Ser. jeff. That was a Sunday as I take it Mowb. Yes Mr. Ser. jeff. Then pray how long did you continue before you came to London Mowbr I think we came in on the Thursday after Ser. jeff. When was the first time Mr. Smith came into your company Mowbr Upon the road on Sunday Ser. jeff. Was that the first time Mowbray Yes He had been at York and went further and afterwards came to us Ser. jeff. When did you come from York Mowb. About the Thursday before if I be not mistaken Ser. jeff. Was it in a week before Mowb. Yes within a week it was Ser. jeff. And you and Mr. Bolron came together Mowb. Yes Ser. jeff. And you left Mr. Smith behind Mowb. Yes Ser. jeff. And he overtook you upon the road Mowb. Yes He was to go further into the North as soon as the Tryal of Sir Miles Stapleton was over and therefore he did very much importune me to stay in the Countrey till he came to go up with me Ser. jeff. What day was the Tryal of Sir Miles Stapleton Mowbr On the Monday before Ser. jeff. You are sure of that and that Mr. Smith went further into the North. Mowbr I see him take Horse Ser. jeff. But he did not come into the company of you and Bolron till the Sunday after that Mowb. See ye Sir He did desire me to stay in the Countrey till he came for he had a business of great concernment to impart to me but it would be a week or a fortnight ere he came but yet he came in a shorter time for he said he had received a Letter that brought him up Ser. jeff. You are sure of this Mowb. Yes Ser. jeff. And you did not see him from the Monday before till that Sunday Mowb. No no. Ser. jeff. Now then I ask you where was that place that he met with you Mowbray At Wentbridge Ser. jeff. And then you came from thence towards London the next day Mow. Yes Ser. jeff. Now would I desire to know of you for I perceive he did attack you to say something against Sir John Brooks and finding that you could not do it because you had no acquaintance he applied himself to Bolron I would know was it between that place and London Mowb. Yes it was Ser. jeff. And after the third of August Mowb. Yes it was after we set out Ser. jeff. I thought it had been the 24th of July that you set out and continued your journey the 25 26 27 28 and 29th Alas we have lost a great deal of time between Bolron and Mowbray Bolron said it was the 25th they lay at such a place and you are gotten to the third of August you are mistaken certainly as to point of time Mowb. See Sir I will look in my Almanack 't is all set down there Ser. jeff. Let us see now if your Oxford journey be as well set down as your journey to London is Mowb. Here is my Almanack Sir Mr. Jones Here look upon his Almanack Ser. jeff. Mr. Jones I don't care for his Almanack I had rather Mowbray and Bolron could bring their Almanacks together and I would have them compared to see whether the third of August in one be the 25th of July in the other Did you discourse with him upon the road the third of August and not before and Bolron that came up with you discourse with him the 25th of July Mowb. I am mistaken I find Ser. jeff. Ay that you are one of you most grosly Mowbray See Sir here is my Almanack whereby I find that it is my mistake but pray see Sir here it is set down the day we came out was the 24th the day we came to London was the 27th Mr. Ser. jeff. How didst thou set out the third of August from that place and yet come to London the 27th of July Mowbray I will refer my self to Mr. Smith as to the time we came up and here is my Almanack Mr. Ser. jeff. I will believe thy Almanack to speak truth though it have never so many errors about the changes of the weather sooner than I will believe thee Coll. I perceive the man is mistaken in the month and the time but pray my Lord will you please to see for Justice sake if the Almanack be new writ Lo. c. j. Look you here is the matter Mr. Colledge he was asked again and again what day it was and he was positive to the third of August Coll. He was mistaken but his Almanack is right L. c. j. He speaks rashly that is the best can be said Mowb. It was a mistake of mine Sir George but my Almanack is right Mr. Ser. jeff. Nay Mr. Mowbray don't enter into dialogues with me I only make a little observation upon your Almanack Mowbray It was only my mistake L. c. j. You are a rash man to affirm so if you had an Almanack you should have consulted it or referred to it Mr. Ser. Jeff. Nay we have lost a day even by your Almanack for yours says it was the 27th you came to Town Bolron the 28th Mowb. I refer my self to Mr. Smith he can't deny but he came up with us at that time Ser. jeff. You were examined at Sir Miles Stapleton's Tryal was you not Mowbray Mowb. I was an Evidence there Ser. jeff. Did the Jury believe you Mowbr They did acquit Sir Miles Stapleton Coll. That is nothing to the purpose so was Mr. Smith too L. c. j. Would you ask any thing further Coll. Call Mrs. Mary Bolron L. c. j. If you have any more Witnesses pray call them Mr. just jones Mowbray was Bolron's Wife by when this discourse was Mowbr No she was in Town she did not go down with him at all Lo. Ch. Just Are you Bolron's Wife Mrs. Bolron Yes L. c. j. Well what do you ask her Colledge Mrs. Bolron Pray do you know Mr. John Smith Mrs. Bolron Yes I do know him Colledge What can you say of him Mrs. Bolron He sent several times for my Husband and Mowbray to my House something he would have them be concerned in some business he had in hand Lo. ch just When was that Mrs. Bolron Within this three weeks since he came up from York Assizes
tho' he had said never a word so you see what a kind of Witness he is And Dr. Oates's Brother did say that I did go along with Dr. Oates and offered to be one of his Guard and I did so and went along with them but Mr. Smith he came after And as to what he says he is sufficiently confuted that is about the going into Cabals after Dinner for it is proved that I fell asleep behind the Table and Dr. Oates was discoursing with Mr. Savage upon points of Divinity but I took no notice of it neither did I see Smith any more but he went away and so did the rest of the company But my Lord when Haynes was taken Smith comes to me that day to my House at the Ditch-side and sends in a man for me his man I was writing in my Parlour and drawing the Design for Wainscoting Alhallows Church a Platform for it his man told me His Master would speak with me and Haynes was taken that morning But as I understand since it was by agreement and his own consent tho' he hath pretended otherwise You hear says he Haynes is taken Yes says I I do he hath been ever since 9 a clock before the Secretary upon examination and he was till 5 a clock at night examining said he I believe he confesses a great deal Said I of what Said he of some design of the Protestants Said I what against the Government I do not know what they may affright him into He is a great Rogue if it be true all that he hath said of himself He says he was concerned in the Fire of London and knew of a design to destroy the Protestants then of a Rebellion that was to be in Ireland of Plunket's being made Primate and a great many of those things So that if he speaks truth he hath been a great Rogue and as he hath pretended also he was a great coward So then I believe he may say any thing to excuse himself Says Mr. Smith I wish you are safe This was the very night before I was taken Mr. just jones Have you proved any thing of this Coll. My Lord Pray give me leave to tell you what is proof Mr. just jones You are not to repeat this unless you prove it Sir Coll. He spake cautiously to me as if he would have intimated to me he would have had me run away Said he I believe you are not safe I would have you take care of your self for you were concerned with him Now my Lord if I had been a guilty person I had time enough to get away and to prove this I can only say this was betwixt him and I. But my Lord you hear Dr. Oates says that this very Smith did swear he would hare my blood and that was upon this occasion of my vindicating Sampson whom he had struck and abused and I asked why he did it Said he I value no mans life if he affront me if 't is any man in England I value him not My Lord upon this occasion the words rise between us and when he came out of doors and was going away Dr. Oates said He swore he would have my blood and that was the occasion of his speaking that Blasphemy L. c. j. Dr. Oates did say so Mr. just Levins Well you are right now if you will go on in that way Colledge My Lord this is for Smith and Haynes that Haynes should say it was a good Trade and dam him he would swear any thing for money and that Smith should swear dam him he would have my blood I cannot sum up the rest of them for I have not them here Mr. just jones There is Turbervile and Dugdale and Smith we will help you as to the persons Mr. just Levins Pray keep to the business and do not run out Colledge Pray my Lord I have one thing to say about Smith He says I shewed him my Arms which I have had for any time almost these three years ever since the Plot brake out I have been armed ready to oppose the Papists and I did my duty in the City in person in the Trained-Bands but Smith says these Arms were to destroy the Kings Guards but he does not prove that I was confederate with any other person but instead of that there were other persons that say with his own mouth that he did not believe there was any Protestant Plot nay he did believe I said it only in wantonness This is all then how probable was it that I my self should seize the King or destroy his Guards Mr. just jones You remember Captain Brown Captain Chuton and Don Lewes Mr. Colledge Coll. Did he swear they were all in my company at Oxon. Mr. just jones Yes Dugdale did Coll. My Lord Captain Brown and Lewes were friends to my Lord Howard with whom and other company I came down to Oxon. and they lay with me at the Chequer and they were in my company because they were Guests in the House and we came along together but he does not say they were either of them armed more than my self nor was he ever in company with us how then does he know we were in a conspiracy Mr. just jones Because you told him at London first that they were such persons Coll. I never saw Lewes in my days till I saw him that morning I came down from Oxon. and Brown I was not acquainted with a fortnight before This is a truth but however they have sworn a Plot upon me at Oxon. and then come and prove I declared these were the men and spoke such and such words at London I desire your Lordships Judgment in this matter of Law whether what be done at London can be sufficient matter of proof in Law to maintain an Indictment against me at Oxon. And if not they do not prove legally that I have spoken such words Besides I conceive 't is not a good proof because there is but one Witness L. c. j. Yes look you there are two Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervile as to what you said at Oxon. and two Witnesses as to what you said at London Haynes and Smith who testifie what you said you would do at Oxon. Now in case you came to Oxon. with any such intention that coming to Oxford is an Overt-act and the Witnesses that speak what you said in London is Evidence to maintain the Indictment here and to prove what your intention was Coll. Does that become an Overt-act if I go to Oxon. upon an honest occasion any other occasion though I had said these words before L. c. j. If you came with that intent to joy with others and with a real purpose to seize the King that is the Overt-act and the words before prove the intention Mr. just jones He declared it himself by his words Coll. Smith says that about a week after Wilcox's Dinner I discoursed with him at the Ditch side that comes not within the compass of the
and the Doctor alighted out of his Coach and spoke to me and invited me to come to my old Friends for he told me they had some jeajousie that I was not true to them and he told me if I would come to the King's-Head Club I should be received with a great deal of kindness and never afterwards did I speak with the Doctor a tittle about any Evidence L. ch Just He says you said you would break any one's Head that said you were an Evidence against Colledge for you were not nor could be Mr. Turbervile There was no such thing said by me Mr. Att. Gen. Upon your Oath did you tell him so Mr. Turberv Upon my Oath I did not Mr. Serj. jeff. Did you tell him that other passage when you swore you would not starve Mr. Turbervile No I did not Dr. Oates Upon the word of a Priest what I say is true My Lord I do say as I am a Minister I speak it sincerely in the presence of God this Gentleman did say these words to me which made me afraid of the man and I went my ways and never spake with him afterwards nor durst I for I thought he that would swear and curse after that rate was not fit to be talked with L. c. j. 'T is very improbable that he should say so to you Mr. Turbervile I always looked upon Dr. Oates as a very ill man and never would converse much with him L. c. j. Will you ask him any thing more Coll. Do you know any thing of the rest Doctor Dr. Oates I know nothing of Turbervile further but that he did present this Petition wherein he says he lay under great temptations to go on the other side and accuse some Protestants And truly till I heard he was an Evidence at Oxon. after what he had said to me I did not believe it Mr. Att. Gen. Doctor Oates Mr. Turbervile hath not changed Sides you have he is still an Evidence for the King you are against him Dr. Oates Mr. Attorney I am a Witness for truth against falshood and subornation and it can plainly be made to appear there is subornation against the Protestants And moreover my Lord L. c. j. Mr. Oates you would do well to explain your self Mr. Serj. Jeff. If there be any subornation relating to Mr. Turbervile or any of the other Witnesses that have now sworn against Colledge make it out Doctor Dr. Oates There is my Lord and there will be made further to appear in time to come To my own knowledge as to Mr. Smith Mr. Colledge and Mr. Smith had some provoking words passed betwixt them at Richard's Coffee-House and Mr. Smith comes out and swears God dam him he would have Colledge 's blood So my Lord when I met him said I Mr. Smith you profess your self to be a Priest and have stood at the Altar and now you intend to take upon you the Ministry of the Church of England and these words do not become a Minister of the Gospel his reply was God dam the Gospel this is truth I speak it in the presence of God and man L. c. j. Can you say any thing of any of the other Witnesses Dr. Oates As for Mr. Dugdale I was ingaged for him for 50 l. for last Lent Assizes he wanted money to go down to the Assizes having paid some debts and paid away all his money and so I engaged for 50 l. that he borrowed of Richard the Coffee-man After he came from Oxon. I called upon him to hasten to get his money of the Lords in the Treasury which as near as I remember was ordered him upon his Petition for so I heard And at that time said he Sir I hear there is a great noise of my being an Evidence against whom said I against several Protestants my Lord Shaftsbury and others said I I never heard any thing of it says he there is no body hath any cause to make any such report of me for I call God to witness I know nothing against any Protestant in England After that I met with Dugdale at Richard's Coffee-house and pressing him for the money and he saying he had it not just then but would pay it in a little time Mr. Dugdale said I you have gone I am afraid against your conscience I am sure against what you have declared to me said he it was all long of Colonel Warcupp for I could get no money else Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Oates is a thorough-pac'd Witness against all the King's Evidence Mr. Ser. Jeff. And yet Dr. Oates had been alone in some matters had it not been for some of these Witnesses Dr. Oates I had been alone perhaps and perhaps not but yet Mr. Serjeant I had always a better Reputation than to need theirs to strengthen it Mr. Ser. jeff. Does any man speak of your Reputation I know no body does meddle with it but you are so tender Colledge Sir George Now a man is upon his life I think you do not do well to affront his Witnesses Mr. Serj. jeff. I do not affront him but now my Lord pray give us leave to call our Witnesses Mr. Smith pray stand up L. c. j. Mr. Smith do you hear what Mr. Oates hath said Mr. Smith No my Lord. L. c. j. Then speak it again Mr. Oates Dr. Oates Yes my Lord I will speak it to his face He said coming out of Richard's Coffee-house they having had some provoking words as I understood when I come in God dam that Colledge I will have his blood and my Lord when I did reprove him and said to him Mr. Smith you have been a Priest and stood at the Altar and intend to be a Minister of the Church of England these words do not become a Minister of the Gospel and he replied God dam the Gospel and away he went L. ch just What say you to it Mr. Smith Mr. Smith Not one word of this is true upon my Oath 'T is a wonderful thing you should say this of me but I will sufficiently prove it against you that you have confounded the Gospel and denied the Divinity too Mr. Serj. jeff. Mr. Dugdale you heard what was said against you Dr. Oates My Lord now Dugdale is come I will tell you something more There was a Report given out by Mr. Dugdale's means that Mr. Dugdale was poysoned and in truth my Lord it was but the Pox. And this Sham passed throughout the Kingdom in our Intelligencies and this I will make appear by the Physician that cured him Mr. Ser. Jeff. That is but by a third Hand Dr. Oates He did confess that he had an old Clap and yet he gave out he was poysened but now my Lord as to what I said before of him I was engaged for 50 l. for Mr. Dugdale do you own that Mr. Dugdale I do own it Dr. Oates I did press upon you to hasten the payment of it Mr. Dugdale Yes you did Dr. Oates And did not you come
to me and tell me there was a noise of your being an Evidence it was in time just before my Lord Shaftsbury was taken up Mr. Dugdale I never spoke to you till you spake to me Dr. Oates My Lord He came and said to me There is a noise of my being an Evidence now I had not heard it then but the day after I did hear it and I did justifie Mr. Dugdale because he had said to me that he had nothing against any Protestant in England So I did stand up in vindication of him but my Lord after he had sworn at the Old Baily I met him again and pressed him for the money and urged him with it why he had sworn against Colledge when he had told me so and so before and he said it was all long of Colonel Warcup for he could not get his money else and Colonel Warcup did promise he should have a place at the Custom-House Mr. Dugdale Upon the Oath I have taken and as I hope for Salvation it is not true Mr. Serj. Jeff. Here is Dugdale's Oath against Dr. Oats's saying Dr. Oates Mr. Serjeant you shall hear of this in another place Mr. Att. Gen. 'T is an unhappy thing that Dr. Oates should come in against these men that supported his Evidence before Mr. Dugd. My Lord I say further if any Doctor will come forth and say he cured me of a Clap or any such thing I will stand guilty of all that is imputed to me L. c. j. Mr. Colledge will you call any other Witnesses Coll. My Lord I think this is not fair dealing with a man for his Life because these men be upon their Oaths and deny the things again that my Witnesses prove therefore what they swear must needs be taken for truth but if my Witness comes and says such a thing upon the word of a Minister and in the presence of God and which he is ready to maintain by an Oath sure it is not to stand for nothing nor he to be hooted out of Court because Mr. Dugdale denies it upon his Oath I do suppose he will not acknowledge it But my Lord I am the Prisoner and cannot be heard as a Witness for my self but God is my Witness he hath said a great deal more to me formerly and he hath told me when I have seen him with Warcup and asked him why he kept company with Warcup and others said he I know they are suspected men but I must keep company with them to get my money what would you have me do starve And when I lent him money out of my pocket and trusted him with my Horse I dunn'd him for money and could not get it said I will you pay me the 5 l. I lent you he put me off said he I shall have it for the Attorney General hath made up his Accompts and he is very kind to me why then said I why have you it not said he he is my Friend and I do not question the getting of it but here is new work to be done such work as my conscience will not serve me to do there is more Roguery they will never have done plotting and counterplotting but they will make a thousand Plots if they can to destroy the real one L. c. j. Can you prove this now Coll. No it was spoken to my self and no body was by but my self L. c. j. Then you should not speak it But you asked the question whether a man may not be believed upon his word as well as he that is upon his Oath Your Witnesses are not upon their Oaths but they may be Witnesses and their weight is to be left with the Jury they will consider how improbable it is that these men should come three men to one man and all of them should speak that which would make themselves Rogues and Villains and that one man of them Smith should say such words as God damn him he would have his blood and God damn the Gospel that Dugdale should confess he was wrought upon by Warcup to testifie against his Conscience and that Turbervile should say to that purpose He would not starve they have sworn the contrary and so there are all these three mens Oaths against one mans Affirmation but it must be left to the Jury Coll. There is his Affirmation against what they three say He charges every one of them and 't is but the single denial of every one of them to his Charge L. c. j. 'T is improbable they should own themselves such Villains to him Dr. Oates They must be so if they will do what they have undertaken I hope my Word will be believed as soon as their Oaths Coll. It is not to be thought but when they have sworn so against me they will deny any such thing when they are charged with it L. c. j. Have you done with your Witnesses Or will you call any more Coll. What is said upon an honest mans word in the face of a Court is certainly to be believed as well as what is sworn L. c. j. 'T is a Testimony that is most certain and must be left to the Jury they must weigh one against the other But pray Mr. Colledge will you call your Witnesses for it begins to grow late Coll. There is Mr. Wilmore that was a material Witness for me who was Foreman of the Grand Jury that would not find the Bill upon this Evidence What he had to say I don't know but I am informed it was very material for me L. c. j. It will be enough for him to clear himself for he is charged with High Treason and by two Witnesses too Colledge Call Alexander Blake Lo. ch just What do you ask him Colledge Do you know John Smith Mr. Blake Yes Sir Coll. Pray will you tell the Court what you know of John Smith Mr. Blake I suppose you mean this Gentleman Mr. John Smith Gent. came to me one morning and told me there was one Haynes under Examination and Haynes had discovered very material things against some great persons this passed and within few days after I met Mr. Smith at the Exchange Coffee-House and having saluted him I desired him to drink a glass of Wine and so we went to the Sun Tavern and when we were there I asked him what his sense was of Haynes and his Discovery Said he 't is a Sham Plot I asked him what he meant by that Sham Plot Said he 't is a meal-tub Plot. This is all that I know L. c. j. Would you ask him any thing else Mr. Blake I know nothing more Coll. Do you know any thing of Turbervill or Dugdale Mr. Blake Sir I have no acquaintance with him nor desire it But I was acquainted with this Gent. Mr. Smith I know him very well Mr. Ser. Jeff. You say well stand down Colledge Call Mr. Samuel Smith L. ch just What ask you him Colledge What he knows of Mr. Smith Mr. S. Smith Mr. John
by the King in his Proclamation Why says Ivy do you think there is no truth in it says I 't is not my judgment but my Lord Shaftsbury and Mr. Godfrey's judgment too He answered me again Fitz-Harris hath desired he may have a pardon granted for himself and a French-man and if so be there were nothing in it do you think he would move for a pardon Says I did Mr. Fitz-Harris move for Haynes's pardon How do I know that says Ivy again Fitz-Harris's Wife told me so Says I let me speak with Fitz-Harris's Wife let me hear her say so and I will believe you The next day he did bring her to me to my House and this was the time and the occasion that brought Fitz-Harris's VVife and Haynes and Ivy and Mr. Fitz-Harris's maid to my House and I never saw Fitz-Harris in my days till his Tryal nor had any communication with him But my Lord she did talk with Haynes and confirmed it to me that her Husband had desired a pardon for him why then said I he would do well to discover what he knows to my Lord Shaftsbury for I was with my Lord and he says he will meddle no more unless he will give it under his hand what he has to say And he did confess to me in my own yard for there we were together that he saw my Lord of Danby come into the Chappel at Sommerset-House when the body of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey lay under the Altar L. c. j. Here hath been nothing of this made appear by proof Coll. My lord I only tell you which way they introduced themselves into my acquaintance L. c. j. You may observe what you will upon the Evidence as we told you but you ramble from the matter you are to speak to And as we told Mr. Attorney that what he said should go for nothing unless he made it out by proof so must we say to you what you say goes for nothing further than you have proved it Now you have quitted the proof quite and not spoke to that but run into other stories I would have you keep your self to your proofs and make your observations upon them Coll. 'T is as I humbly conceive it to my purpose but I hope my ignorance may excuse me if I err I tell you the truth of things thus it was L. c. j. Truth Why if yours or any mans word in your case should go for truth no man that stands at a Bar could be convicted for every man will say he is an honest man and all the plausible things in the world Make you your observations upon the proof that is proper for you to do and urge it as well as you can and to the best purpose you can but to tell us long stories of passages between you and others that are not a whit proved that is not usual nor pertinent Colledge I thought it had been to the point when this man pretends to have a familiarity with me to shew how his acquaintance begun Mr. just jones Why do you think 'tis an answer to him in what he proves upon his Oath Have you proved one jot of it not that I have heard 'T is your part to sum up the Evidence on your own side and to answer that which is proved upon you if you can Do that and we will hear you speak to it as long as you can But to tell stories to amuse the Jury with that are not proved and to run out into rambling discourses to no purpose that is not to be allowed nor never was in any Court of Justice Mr. Just Raymond Not one of your Witnesses have mentioned any thing that you say Mr. just Levins I wonder Mr. Colledge you should forget your self so much for you found fault with Mr. Attorney at the beginning for opening the Evidence and you were told and the Jury were told at your request that what he said and did not prove passed for nothing But I must tell you 't is much worse in your case for Mr. Attorney only opened what he might prove afterwards but your observations are upon what hath been proved already and yet you run out into stories of what hath not been proved at all after your proof is past Colledge Sir I could not prove this otherwise than by Ivy who hath been sworn against me Mr. just jones Would you have the Jury to believe you upon your word Coll. There is no more than his Oath against me and why my Oath being an Englishman and a Protestant should not be taken as well as his that is an Irish man and hath been a Papist I know not L. c. j. You go upon that ground that your word is to be taken as appears by your defence but I must tell you all the course of Justice were destroyed and no Justice against malefactors were to be had if the word of him that is accused should pass for proof to acquit him Colledge My Lord I have given your Lordship an account of these fellows conversations and what other proofs to make I know not for I knew not what they would swear against me and I had not witnesses in my pocket to confront them Mr. just Levins Well the Jury have heard it over and over again first upon your request that nothing is to be taken notice of that is not proved Coll. Pray my Lord then as to Haynes My Lord I do observe that there was a witness for me that did prove he owned he was one that was employed to make a Protestant Plot and another that did hear him swear dam him he would swear any thing against any body for money for it was his Trade Mr. just Levins Now you are right speak as much as you will as to your proofs Coll. My Lord I think Turbervile and Dugdale swear as to the tenth of March Oxon. I desire it may be proved I was in Oxford the tenth of March. Mr. just jones You your self came down the middle of March. L. c. j. I do not remember that they said the tenth of March. Coll. Did not the Indictment say so Mr. Att. Gen. It is only in the Indictment L. c. j. As to the time mentioned in the Indictment it is not material that is the constant rule in Tryals upon Indictments as if an Horse be laid to be stole the tenth if it be proved the Prisoner stole it another day it will be sufficient the time is not material the question is whether the Indictment be true in substance Mr. Colledge my Brothers will all tell you that the Law is so Mr. just Levins Though it is laid the tenth of March yet if it be proved the first or twentieth before or after it is all one So the thing be proved they are not bound to a day Coll. My Lord the punctilio's of Law I know not but it was the twenty fourth or twenty fifth e're I came down L. c. j. Well go on Sir Coll. Dugdale says I