Blake I suppose you mean this Gentleman Mr. John Smith Gent. came to me one morning and told me there was one Haynes under Examination and this Haynes had Discovered very material things against some Great Persons This passed and within few days after I met Mr. Smith at the Exchange Coffee-House and having saluted him I desired him to drink a glass of Wine and so we went to the Sun Tavern and when we were there I asked him what his sence was of Haynes and his Discovery Said he 't is a Sham Plot I asked him what he meant by that Sham Plot Said he 't is a meal-tub Plot. This is all that I know L. C. J. Would you ask him any thing else Mr. Blake I know nothing more Colledge Do you know any thing of Turbervill or Dugdale Mr. Blake Sir I have no Acquaintance with him nor desire it But I was Acquainted with this Gent. Mr. Smith I know him very well Mr. Serg. Jefferies You say well stand down Colledge Call Mr. Samuel Smith L. C. J. What ask you him Colledge What he knows of Mr. Smith Mr. S. Smith Mr. John Smith and I have had an Intimacy and Acquaintance several moneths and since Mr. John Smith swore at the Old Baily against Mr. Colledge and was gone out of Town several People have talked with me concerning him and asking me what I thought of him I told them I believed he was an honest man however I would not believe otherwise till I knew a Reason of it They told me that he had sworn against Mr. Colledge that he was to seize the King at the Parliament at Oxford and that there was 1500 Barrels of Powder and it was to carry on a Presbyterian Plot Said I I will never believe it and the rather because he hath said to me often there was a Popish Plot but he does not believe any Presbyterian or Protestant Plot and said I further as to his giving any Evidence with Irish-men I believe it the less for that for I have heard him often say they were a company of Rogues that had done the Protestant Interest more harm than ever they could do it good and bid me have a care of coming into their Company and many other such things that Mr. Smith here knows to be true Then my Lord when Mr. Smith came home for I was very impatient till he did come home to hear every day such things said against him I went to him to see him Said I Cousin Smith I have had great confronts about you since you went away but I hope you can't be that ill man you are represented to be and truly I should be sorry it should be so Pray Cousin said I I have put every man off with this that I would suspend my belief of you till I had spoken with you your self what is the Evidence you have given They say you have sworn a Presbyterian Plot or a Protestant Plot a Design of seizing the King at Oxon and of so many Barrels of Gun-powder that were provided Says my Cousin I did swear no such thing nor never a word of any such thing as a Protestant Plot or a Presbyterian Plot and pray do not believe it of me No said I I thought you could not swear any such thing because you have said often to me you believed there was no such thing I do not believe it yet said he and as to whatsoever Colledge said I did not believe it for he did not believe it himself And Mr. Smith told me after his return that he did not know of any Protestant concerned in the Plot. L. C. J. He does not say now 't is a Protestant Plot. Mr. S. Smith So far from that that he told me after his Return he did not know any Protestant concerned in the Plot. L. C. J. Mr. Smith Thus I understand you You say that he said to you That he had not testified anything of a Protestant Plot nor did believe there was any Protestant Plot for he did not believe what Colledge said himself So by that discourse it seems he did not deny but he had testified against Mr Colledge but he did not believe there was any Protestant Plot Mr. S. Smith No my Lord he did not deny but he had sworn against Colledge Mr. Just Jones Nor that what he had said against Colledge was true Mr. S. S. No my Lord but he did not believe him and he thought Colledge did not believe it himself Mr. S. Jeff. It seems Mr. Colledge thinks the whole Protestant Interest concerned in him L. C. J. The Question is Mr. Colledge what you had in your mind not what was in the mind of all the Protestants Mr. S. S. This I do say I would not speak more nor less than the truth he did not deny but he had heard Colledge speak those words he swore but he did not believe him and I think Mr. Smith hath said that at another time before Mr. Gardner Colledge If he knew of no Protestant Plot it was very unlikely that I should attempt such a thing my self Mr. S. S. My Lord I find Mr. Smith hath been very passionate and very inveterate of late against other men that he hath given me a very good report of before And when I was talking of this I was saying If it be true that people say of you a man goes in danger of his life to converse with you Mr. Smith said he I do not care for all the men between Wapping and Charing-cross there is never a man that will forbear my company but would do or say as much as Colledge hath done or said Mr. J. Smith 'T is true and I say so still Colledge 'T is a contradiction in it self That there should be such a design and none but my self to do it God my righteous Judges knows my innocency Mr. Just Jones You might say those words in hopes they would be of your party and made so by your Libels and poysonous Pictures L. C. J. Come call another Witness Colledge Call Mr. Tho. Gardner But my Lord how likely is it that I should say That I would seize the King when he it seems says he did not believe there was one man to stand by me L. C. J. What say you to this Gentleman Colledge I never saw him in my life Mr. Gardner Nor I you Sir Colledge I know not three of all that come here L. C. J. Well will you ask him any thing Colledge Pray do you know Mr. Smith Mr. Gardner Yes Colledge What do you know of him Can you say any thing concerning this matter that is sworn against me of Treason Mr. Gardner My Lord this day fortnight I think it was Mr. S. Smith the Gent. that was just now up before me sent for me to the Rummer in Queen-street to drink a Glass of Wine where when I came I found him and Mr. J. Smith that is here whom they call Narrative Smith talking very briskly concerning
him in my life any more then seeing him in a publick Coffee-house But there was a Picture looking on by 7 or 8 or 10 People I believe more or less and I coming and crowding in my head amongst the rest looked upon this Picture After the Crowd was over Mr. Colledge takes a Picture out of his Pocket and said he I will give you one of them if you will So he gives me a Picture which Picture if I could see I could tell what it was it was written Mac a Top and there were several Figures in it Then the Picture was shewed him This is one of the same that I had of him and I had not had it long in my Custody but meeting with Justice Warcupp I shewed it him who bid me give it him and so I did The next thing that I did see Mr. Colledge do was in the Coffee-house not the same day but another time I saw him bring in a parcel of blew Ribband which was wrought and these words eight times wrought in it twice wrought in every Quarter of a Yard No Popery No Slavery I saw him sell to a Member of Parliament as I took him to be a yard of that Ribband for 2 s. and truly I was thinking he would ask me to buy some too and I saw that Gentleman I took him to be a Parliament man take this Ribband and tye it upon his Sword As to the other thing I have to say of Mr. Colledge That very day the Parliament was Dissolved he had been in a Quarrel as he told me with Mr. Fitz Girald and I was standing in the Schoole-house Yard and he comes directly to me without my speaking to him or any thing but he comes and tells me Mr. Fitz Girald had spit in his face and said he I spit in his face again so we went to Loggerheads together I think that was the word or fifty Cuffs So said I Mr. Colledge your Nose bleeds he takes his handkerchief out of his Pocket and wipes his Nose and said I have lost the first blood in the Cause but it will not be long before more be lost L. C. Just Where was this Sir William Jennings In the Schoole-house Yard at Oxon. I never discoursed with him afterwards till I met him at London in Fleet-Street one Sunday in the Afternoon and I remember Captain Crescett was along with me And when he came up to me How now said I honest Joyner Sayes he You call me honest Joyner some call me Rogue and Rascal and I have been beating some of them So that I believe they will be aware of it So I told Captain Crescett I never met this man but he was always in a Quarrel Colledge Was it on a Sunday that I told you I had been beating of some body Sir William Jennings You told me so Captain Crescett was by Colledge I do remember I met you but I did not tell you I had been then beating any one But pray Sir William when I met you after the Parliament was Dissolved and Fitz Girald and I had quarrel'd did I say That I had lost the first blood in the Cause but it would not be long e're more were lost Sir William you are a Gentleman as for the other men they don't care what they say nor do I so much regard them but you value your Word and Honour These were my words and pray will you recollect your self before you be positive in the thing whether I did not say I have lost the first blood for the Parliament for it was upon my vindicating of the Commons and Doctor Oates whom Fitz Girald had abused and upon that the Quarrel began so I said when you met me and told me my Nose bled I have lost the first blood for the Parliament I wish it may be the last Sir William Jennings Mr. Colledge If you please I will answer you as to that I do assure you t is the first time that ever I came upon this occasion in my days and I have declared it before and do declare it now I would rather have served the King in 3 Ingagements then come in against you or any man upon such an Occasion But I declare to you upon the whole memory of the truth the words were as I spoke them at first and no Parliament named or mentioned And my Lord moreover I will tell you When I did tell this story because Mr. Crescett that is here is able to tell you whether I did not relate the words within half an hour or a little time after Now I never had a prejudice against you in my days nor other Concern but having told Mr. Justice Warcupp this Story I am brought hither to testifie it Colledge Sir William I am very sorry you did not better observe and remember my words then Sir William Jennings I must needs say I could not imagine what the words meant when they were spoken nor do I understand them to this day but soon after they were spoken I related them to Justice Warcupp he being a Justice of Peace Mr. Serj. Holloway Gentlemen we shall rest here and conclude our Evidence for the King at present to hear what the Prisoner says to it only with my Lords leave I shall explain the words to you that are in the Indictment and tell you what is meant by Compassing and Imagining the Death of the King The Seizing the Person of the King is in Law a Compassing and Intending his Death and so it hath been adjudged in several Cases as in 1 Jacobi my Lord Cobham and my Lord Greys Case and several other Cases and so you may fully apprehend what the Charge is and may understand the words in the Indictment That if you are not satisfied with the general words of Compassing the King's Death you may know that the Seizing his Person extends to it Mr. Serj. Jefferies My Lord we have done with our Evidence now let him go on with his L. Chief Justice Now Mr. Colledge you may say what you will for your defence and call your Witnesses that you have to produce Colledge My Lord I have heard this Evidence that is against me and I would desire your Lordship to resolve me some Questions upon it I think the Indictment is for Treasonable Practices for a Conspiracy now I desire your Lordship will be pleased that I may know from you and the Court whether in all this Evidence given in proof against me a Conspiracy is proved or if any thing appears besides what they say I said L. Chief Justice For a Conspiracy in you If the Witnesses speak Truth there is a plain proof and of the degrees of it First of all By your publishing Libels and Pictures to make the King Odious and Contemptible in the Eyes of the People and that you should be the Author of some of those Pictures and they were found in your Custody Colledge I conceive that is not proved L. Chief Justice If the
they do not tell you of any thing done at Oxford but they tell you what you said in their hearing of what you had done in Oxon and so I think if the Witnesses are to be believed there is a very full proof against you Mr. Just Raymond I am of the same Opinion truely and I cannot find but that there is proof enough by two Witnesses Turbervile and Dugdale of what was done at Oxford They swear matter of Fact not words only but actions also Colledge No fact but that I had Pistols and a Sword and that I should tell Mr. Turbervile I would provide him an Horse which is still but words Mr. Just Jones But you shall hear anon for the full Conviction of you and all others the Statute of the 13 th of this King read to you and you shall there see that such words are made Treason Colledge But I beseech your Lordship to tell me whether there must not be two Witnesses to the same words at the same time Mr. Just Jones No it was the resolution of all the Judges in the Case of my Lord Stafford in the presence of the Parliament and the Parliament proceeded upon it Mr. Serj. Jefferies In the same Tryal where Mr. Colledge was a Witness Mr. Att. General All the whole House of Commons prayed Judgment upon my Lord Stafford pursuant to that resolution L. C. Just Come will you call any Witnesses Colledge My Lord I do not question but to prove this one of the Hellishest Conspiracy that ever was upon the face of the Earth and these the most notorious wicked men an absolute design to destroy all the Protestants of England that have had the Courage to oppose the Popish Plot. In which no man of my condition hath done more then I have done I was bred a Protestant and continued so hitherto and by the grace of God I will dye so If that they had known of these words that I should speak and such a Design that I should have before the Parliament sat at Oxon and be with me in Oxon when the Parliament sat if they had been good Subjects they ought to have had me apprehended Turbervile came several times indeed and dined with me I did not bid him go out of Doors nor invited him thither he was a man I had no disrespect for Nay he was a man I valued thinking he had done the Nation service against the Papists that this man should hear me speak such words against his Majesty who was then in this Town and know of such a dangerous Design to attempt the seizing his Person or that I should Discover a great Party that were ready to do it I think there is scarce any man of reason but will say if this were really done and spoken by me neither of them would or ought to have concealed it but discover it none of them has ever charged me with any such thing they have been in my Company since I never had any Correspondence with any of them but Dugdale then pray consider how improbable it is that I should talk of such things to Papists Priests and Irish-men who have broke their faith with their own Party that faith which they gave under the penalty of Damnation Men that have been concerned in Plots and Treasons to murder and cut the Throats of Protestants that I should be such a Madman to trust these People when I could receive no manner of Obligation from them nor could give any Trust to them they having before broke their Faith especially considering I could lay no such Oaths and Obligations upon them who was a Protestant then 't is the greatest Non-sense to believe that I would say these things before Persons whom I could never hope would conceal my Treasons having discovered their own If they speak Truth concerning the general Popish Plot that could be no Obligation upon me to trust them with another and they cannot say that they ever obliged me in any one respect My Lord I thank God I have had some Acquaintance in the World and have been concerned with some persons of Honour Noblemen and Parliament men that I know are as good Subjects as any his Majesty has these never found me a Fool nor a Rascal so great a Knave as to have any such Thoughts in my Heart nor so great a mad-man or so foolish as to go to discover them to Papists Priests and Irish-men to men of their Condition that were ready to starve for Bread As for Haynes and Smith that run so fast through all their Evidence the first time that ever I set my Eyes on Haynes was in the Coffee-house that he speaks of Macnamarra comes in and desires me to go out with him and I should hear the greatest Discovery of a piece of Villany against my Lord Shaftsbury's Life that ever I heard in my Life This Captain Brown who is now dead a man that I had not known but a Month before for I think it was in March last when this was could testifie for me for I came to him Captain said I here is a Discovery offered to be made to me of a Design to take away my Lord Shaftsbury's Life Macnamarra asks me to go to the Hercules Pillars I went along with him and took Captain Brown with us Afterwards he fell sick in April and is now dead so I lossed a main Evidence in the Case He was the only man that was by at the time God knows my Heart I speak nothing but the Truth I took him with me Haynes began to discover to us that Fitz-Girald had employed him to fetch over Macnamarra and if he would come in and Swear against my Lord of Shaftesbury which was his Design it would not be long e're his Head were taken off and he said He had given in a Paper of High Treason agaist my Lord of Shaftesbury I asked what it was he told me That my Lord should tell Fitz Girald that he had a Design to bring this Kingdom to a Common Wealth and to rout out the Family of the Stuarts This he said Fitz Girald had given in in a Paper under his own hand and I think he said He had Sworn it and sent Haynes to fetch Macnamarra to Swear against my Lord the same things too I writ down all the heads of the discourse which Captain Brown heard as well as I after he had said it he desired us to conceal it Sir said I You are a stranger to me and these are great and strange things that you do tell us Macnamarra and Brown and Ivy and others were there which if they were honest men they would come and Testifie I thought them honest men and that they had none of those wicked Designs in their Hearts that now I find they have So says Haynes I do not know this man meaning me Macnamarra told him I was an honest man he might lay his Life in my hands After he had spoken all this he desired us
before and he did much importune me to say that Sir John Brooks did affirm there would be cutting of throats at Oxford and that the King was to be seized there I told him I could have no plausible pretence because I had no acquaintance with Sir John Brooks nor did I come up wih him upon which he applied himself to Bolron and importun'd him for the same he asked me who I came up with I told him I came up with 3 Members of Parliament my Lord Fairfax Sir John Hewly and Mr. Stern he asked me what Discourse we had upon the Road And he asked whether they had any Discourse that tended to justifie their former Votes For he said if they did think to justifie any thing of those Votes or if they would not allow the King money and stood upon the Bill of Exclusion he said that was pretence enough for any man to swear that there was a Design against the King and that the King was to be seized at Oxford Colledge An excellent pretence indeed and like the rest Mr. Mow. He would have tempted me to swear against my Lord Shaftesbury the same And he said it would be well if I did appear on Colledges Tryal at Oxon for it was a thing of great Consequence the Popish Plot was thrown out of doors and no man was looked upon that did speak of it Mr. Just Jones Was all this in the presence of Mr. Bolron Mr. Mow. No my Lord. When he was discoursing about Sir John Brooks Mr. Bolron rid up to us and he applied himself to him because I told him I had no plausible pretence to swear against him having no Acquaintance with him Mr. S. Jeff. Pray Sir let me ask you one Question When came you from York Mr. Mow. We set forward the 3 d. day of August from Wentbridge Mr. S. Jeff. Pray who came with you in the Company Mr. M. Mr. Bolron Mr. Ser. Jeff. That was a Sunday as I take it Mr. Mow. Yes Mr. S. Jeff. Then pray how long did you continue before you came to Lond. Mr. Mow. I think we came in on the Thursday after Mr. S. Jeff. When was the first time Mr. Smith came into your company Mr. Mow. Upon the Road on Sunday Mr. S. Jeff. Was that the first time Mr. Mow. Yes He had been at York and went further and afterwards came to us Mr. S. Jeff. When did you come from York Mr. Mow. About the Thursday before if I be not mistaken Mr. S. Jeff. Was it in a week before Mr. Mow. Yes within a week it was Mr. S. Jeff. And you and Mr. Bolron came together Mr. Mow. Yes Mr. Ser. Jeff. And you left Mr. Smith behind Mr. Mow. Yes Mr. Ser. Jeff. And he overtook you upon the Road Mr. Mow. Yes He was to go further into the North as soon as the Tryal of Sir Miles Stapleton was over and therefore he did very much importune me to stay in the Countrey till he came to go up with me Mr. Ser. Jeff. What day was the Tryal of Sir Miles Stapleton Mr. Mow. On the Monday before Mr. S. J. You are sure of that that Mr. Smith went further into the North. Mr. Mow. I see him take Horse Mr. Ser. Jeff. But he did not come into the Company of you and Mr. Bolron till the Sunday after that Mr. Mow. See ye Sir He did desire me to stay in the Countrey till he came for he had a business of great concernment to impart to me but it would be a week or a fortnight ere he came but yet he came in a shorter time for he said he had received a Letter that brought him up Mr. Serg. Jeff. You are sure of this Mr. Mow. Yes Mr. Serg. Jeff. And you did not see him from the Monday before till that Sunday Mr. Mow. No no. Mr. S. Jeff. Now then I ask you where was that place that he met with you Mr. Mow. At Wentbridge Mr. S.J. And then you came from thence towards London the next day Mr. Mow. Yes Mr. S. Jeff. Now would I desire to know of you for I perceive he did attack you to say something against Sir John Brooks and finding that you could not do it because you had no Acquaintance he applied himself to Bolron I would know was it between that place and London Mr. Mow. Yes it was Mr. S. Jeff. And after the 3 d. of August Mr. Mow. Yes it was after we set out Mr. S. Jeff. I thought it had been the 24 th of July that you set out and continued your Journey the 25 26 27 28 29 th Alas we have lost a great deal of time between Mr. Bolron and Mr. Mowbray Bolron said it was the 25 th they lay at such a place and you are gotten to the 3 d. of August you are mistaken certainly as to point of time Mr. Mow. See Sir I will look in my Almanack 't is all set down there Mr. S.J. Let us see now if your Oxford Journey be as well set down as your Journey to Lond. is Mr. Mow. Here is my Almanack Sir Mr. Jones Here look upon his Almanack Mr. Ser. Jeff. Mr. Jones I don't care for his Almanack I had rather Mr. Mow. and Mr. Bolron could bring their Almanacks together and I would have them compared to see whether the 3 d. of August in one be the 25 th of July in the other Did you Discourse with him upon the Road the 3 d. of August and not before and Bolron that came up with you Discourse with him the 25 th of July Mr. Mow. I am mistaken I find Mr. Ser. Jeff. Ay that you are one of you most grosly Mr. Mow. See Sir here is my Almanack whereby I find that it is my mistake but pray see Sir here it is set down the day we came out was the 24. the day we came to London was the 27. Mr. S. Jeff. How didst thou set out the 3 of August from that place and yet come to London the 27 th of July Mr. Mow. I will refer my self to Mr. Smith as to the time we came up here is my Almanack Mr. S. Jeff. I will believe thy Almanack to speak truth though it have never so many Errors about the Changes of the Weather sooner than I will believe thee Coll. I perceive the man is mistaken in the moneth and the time but pray my Lord will you please to see for Justice sake if the Almanack be new writ L. C. J. Look you here is the matter Mr. Colledge he was asked again and again what day it was and he was positive to the 3 d. of August Coll. He was mistaken but his Almanack is right L. C. J. He speaks rashly that is the best can be said Mr. Mow. It was a mistake of mine Sir George but my Almanack is right Mr. Ser. Jeff. Nay Mr. Mowbray don't enter into Dialogues with me I only make a little Observation upon your Almanack Mr. Mow. It was
Conspiracy Mr. Just Jones Because you told him at London first that they were such persons Colledge I never saw Lewes in may days till I saw him that morning I came down from Oxon and Brown I was not acquainted with a fortnight before This is a truth but however they have sworn a Plot upon me at Oxon and then come and prove I declared these were the men and spoke such and such words at London I desire your Lordships Judgment in this matter of Law whether what be done at London can be sufficient matter of proof in Law to maintain an Indictment against me at Oxon And if not they do not prove legally that I have spoken such words Besides I conceive 't is not a good proof because there is but one Witness L. Ch. Justice Yes look you there are two Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervile as to what you said at Oxon and two Witnesses as to what you said at London Haynes and Smith who testifie what you said you would do at Oxon. Now in case you came to Oxon with any such intention that coming to Oxford is an overt-Act and the witnesses that speak what you said in London is Evidence to maintain the Indictment here and to prove what your intention was Colledge Does that become an overt-Act if I go to Oxon upon an honest occasion any other occasion tho' I had said those words before L. Ch. Justice If you came with that intent to joyn with others and with a real purpose to seize the King that is the Overt-Act and the words before prove the intention Mr. Just Jones He declared it himself by his words Colledge Smith says that about a week after Wilcox's dinner I disoursed with him at the Ditch side that comes not within the compass of the Statutes Then there is twice of the 3 times he speaks of the last day I do not remember when it was L. Ch. Justice All was in London that Smith speaks of you Colledge How comes that to be proof here then nothing he says is to go for any thing Mr. Just Jones Nothing will serve your turn we have declared our Opinions once already that if the Witnesses swear true here are two witnesses nay if one were of what was done at London and the other of what was done at Oxon if they be to the same Treason they are two Witnesses in Law Colledge My Lord I observe one thing upon Turbervile's Evidence he swears there was a discourse in the Room when Brown was upon the Bed but afterwards if your Lordship minds it he says I discoursed with him as he and I lay upon the Bed Before he said when Brown lay upon the Bed and in the Room and afterwards when we lay upon the Bed Mr. Just Jones Both the one and the other Colledge But he said said first one way and then the other Mr. Just Jones Whilst Brown lay upon the Bed and when he was gone whilst you both lay upon the Bed L. Ch. Justice We will do you no wrong therefore if you will Turbervile shall stand up and clear it Colledge My Lord I believe those that have taken the passages can prove he contradicted himself in that L. Ch. Just He said both But the Jury have taken notes of the Evidence and will take notice of it Colledge As to Mr. Masters the Evidence he gives was he says that he and I should discourse of the Parliament in 40. Mr. Just Jones And the justifiableness of the late King's death that they had done nothing but what they had just cause to do Colledge He swears that I did say to him that the late Parliament did not cut off the Kings head Mr. Just Jones And you said the last Parliament that sate at Westminster was of the same opinion with that in 40. Colledge I dare appeal to Esq Charlton in whose shop the discourse was I did not know that Mr. Masters was to be an Evidence against me and truly they have taken that course with me by which any man may be destroyed with half this Evidence were they of good Credit let his Innocence be what it will I have been used so barbarously in the Tower kept from all Conversation and so in an utter ignorance of what was sworn against me for else I could easily have disproved Mr. Masters if I had been in London and had liberty to provide for my defence but they have taken a course to prevent that and brought me hither because 't is impossible I should here defend my self L. Ch. Just You have not offered at any Witness to Impeach Mr. Masters Credit Colledge Mr. Masters discourse he speaks of was in Mr. Charlton's shop I durst have appealed to him about it for I know if he were here he would do me right Mr. Masters did say the Parliament cut off the late Kings Head We held a dispute upon that which I was not willing to enter into I said they did not and we did then dispute whether they began the War against his Majesty I said they did not that I knew of neither were they the persons but the Papists that began that War and that broke off the Treaty at Vxbridge and that the Papists carryed it on to that sad issue and put it upon the Protestants that they had the odium of it but it was another sort of men that carryed it on I said that I did always understand that Parliament to be an honest Parliament that minded the true Interest of the Nation and much of the same opinion with the Parliament that fate last at Westminster But before I said this I said they were persons altogether innocent of the Kings murder and raising the War against the King I did always understand that so the Parliament in 40 were L. Ch. Just But they were guilty of a Rebellion and are declared so by Act of Parliament since His Majesty came in Colledge My Lord I am unacquainted with the Law I speak only my sense of it And my Lord I did excuse them as to the Murder of the King and the beginning of the War that according to my understanding they were not Guilty of it and from thence I did maintain they were an honest good Parliament and much of opinion with the Parliament that sat last at Westminster which was for the true Interest of the Nation L. Ch. Just And was that the true Interest of the Nation to cut off the King's Head Colledge I did argue that with him some time and I did tell him that it was the Papists that did all the Mischief Mr. Just Jones But he sayes no upon his Oath that when he had said the Parliament begun the Rebellion and the Parliament did cut off the King's Head you said the Parliament did nothing but what they had just Cause for and the Parliament that sat last at Westminster was of the same mind L. Ch. Just Those were his words Colledge Pray let him be called again L. Ch. Just
I did ask him whether he was a Witness or no against Colledge Mr. Turbervile said he would break any one's head that should say so against him for he neither was a Witness nor could give any Evidence against him So after he came from Oxon I met with Mr. Turbervile again and hearing he had been there I asked him if he had sworn any thing against Colledge He said Yes he had been sworn before the Grand Jury Said I did not you tell me so and so Why said he the Protestant Citizens have deserted us and God damn him he would not starve L. Ch. Just Would he say so to you Dr. Oates Yes my Lord he said those very words Mr. Serj. Jeff. 'T is Mr. Oates Saying 't is Mr. Turbervile's Oath Dr. Oates Several times he did repeat it but when I asked him what he had sworn he said I am not bound to satisfie peoples Curiosities L. Ch. Just What say you to it Mr. Turbervile Mr. Turbervile My Lord the first part of the Doctor 's discourse in part is true I met him just at my Lodgings and the Doctor alighted out of his Coach and spoke to me and invited me to come to my old Friends for he told me they had some jealousie that I was not true to them and he told me if I would come to the King's Head Club I should be received with a great deal of kindness and never afterwards did I speak with the Doctor a tittle about any Evidence L. Ch. Just He says you said you would break any one's head that said you were an Evidence against Colledge for you were not nor could be Mr. Turbervile There was no such thing said by me Mr. Attorn Gen. Upon your Oath did you tell him so Mr. Turbervile Upon my Oath I did not Mr. Serj. Jeff. Did you tell him that other passage when you swore you would not starve Mr. Turbervile No I did not Dr. Oates Upon the word of a Priest what I say is true My Lord I do say as I am a Minister I speak it sincerely in the presence of God this Gentleman did say these words to me which made me afraid of the man and I went my ways and never spake with him afterwards nor durst I for I thought he that would swear curse after that rate was not fit to be talked with L. Ch. Just 'T is very improbable that he should say so to you Mr. Turbervile I always looked upon Dr. Oates as a very ill man and never would converse much with him L. Ch. Just Will you ask him any thing more Coll. Do you know any thing of the rest Doctor Dr. Oates I know nothing of Turbervile further but that he did present this Petition wherein he says he lay under great temptations to go on the other side and accuse some Protestants And truly till I heard he was an Evidence at Oxon after what he had said to me I did not believe it Mr. Attorn Gen. Doctor Oates Mr. Turbervile hath not changed Sides you have he is still an Evidence for the King you are against him Dr. Oates Mr. Attorney I am a Witness for Truth against Falshood and Subornation and it cannot plainly be made to appear there is Subornation against the Protestants And moreover my Lord L. Ch. Just Mr. Oates you would do well to explain your self Mr. Serj. Jeff. If there be any subornation relating to Mr. Turbervile or any of the other Witnesses that have now sworn against Colledge make it out Doctor Dr. Oates There is my Lord and there will be made further to appear in time to come To my own knowledge as to Mr. Smith Mr. Colledge and Mr. Smith had some provoking words passed betwixt them at Richards Coffee-house and Mr. Smith comes out and swears God damn him he would have Colledges bloud So my Lord when I met him said I Mr. Smith you profess your self to be a Priest and have stood at the Altar and now you intend to take upon you the Ministery of the Church of England and these words do not become a Minister of the Gospel his reply was God damn the Gospel this is truth I speak it in the presence of God and Man L. Ch. Just Can you say any thing of any of the other Witnesses Dr. Oates As for Mr. Dugdale I was ingaged for him for 50 li. for last Lent Assizes he wanted money to go down to the Assizes having pay'd some debts and pay'd away all his money and so I ingaged for 50 li. that he borrowed of Richard the Coffee-man After he came from Oxen I called upon him to hasten to get his money of the Lords in the Treasury which as near as I remember was ordered him upon his Petition for so I heard And at that time said he Sir I hear there is a great noise of my being an Evidence against whom said I against several Protestants my Lord Shaftsbury and others said I I never heard any thing of it says he there is no body hath any Cause to make any such Report of me for I call God to Witness I know nothing against any Protestant in England After that I met with Dugdale at Richards Coffee-house and pressing him for the money and he saying he had it not just then but would pay it in a little time Mr. Dugdale said I you have gone I am afraid against your Conscience I am sure against what you have declared to me said he It was all long of Colonel Warcup for I could get no money else Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Oats is a through paced Witness against all the King's Evidence Mr. Serj. Jeff. And yet Dr. Oates had been alone in some matters had it not been for some of these Witnesses Dr. Oates I had been alone perhaps and perhaps not but yet Mr. Serjeant I had always a better Reputation than to need theirs to strengthen it Mr. Serj. Jeff. Does any man speak of your Reputation I know no body does meddle with it but you are so tender Coll. Sir George Now a man is upon his Life I think you do not do well to affront his Witnesses Mr. Serj. Jeff. I do not affront him but now my Lord pray give us leave to call our Witnesses Mr. Smith pray stand up L. Ch. Just Mr. Smith do you hear what Mr. Oates hath said Mr. Smith No my Lord. L. Ch. Just Then speak it again Mr. Oates Dr. Oates Yes my Lord I will speak it to his face He said coming out of Richards Coffee-house They having had some provoking words as I understood when I come in God damn that Colledge I will have his blood and my Lord when I did reprove him and said to him Mr. Smith you have been a Priest and stood at the Altar and intend to be a Minister of the Church of England these words do not become a Minister of the Gospel and he replied God damn the Gospel and away he went L. Ch. Just What say you
to it Mr. Smith Mr. Smith Not one word of this is true upon my Oath 'T is a wonderful thing you should say this of me but I will sufficiently prove it against you That you have confounded the Gospel and denied the Divinity too Mr. Serj. Jeff. Mr. Dugdale you heard what was said against you Dr. Oates My Lord now Dugdale is come I will tell you something more There was a Report given out by Mr. Dugdale's means that Mr. Dugdale was poysoned and in truth my Lord it was but the Pox. And this Sham passed throughout the Kingdom in our Intelligencies and this I will make appear by the Physician that cured him Mr. Serj. Jeff. That is but by a third hand Dr. Oates He did confess that he had an old Clap and yet he gave out he was Poysoned but now my Lord as to what I said before of him I was ingaged for 50 li. for Mr. Dugdale do you own that Mr. Dugdale I do own it Dr. Oates I did press upon you to hasten the payment of it Mr. Dugdale Yes you did Dr. Oates And did not you come to me and tell me there was a noise of your being an Evidence it was in time just before my Lord Shaftsbury was taken up Mr. Dugdale I never spoke to you till you spake to me Dr. Oates My Lord he came and said to me there is a noise of my being an Evidence now I had not heard it then but the day after I did hear it and I did justifie Mr. Dugdale because he had said to me that he had nothing against any Protestant in England So I did stand up in Vindication of him but my Lord after he had sworn at the old Baily I met him again and pressed him for the money and urged him with it why he had sworn against Colledge when he had told me so and so before and he said it was all long of Colonel Warcup for he could not get his money else and Colonel Warcup did promise he should have a place at the Custom-house Mr. Dugd. Upon the Oath I have taken and as I hope for salvation it is not true Mr. Serj. Jeff. Here is Dugdale's Oath against Dr. Oates's saying Dr. Oates Mr. Serjeant you shall hear of this in another place Mr. Attorn Gen. 'T is an unhappy thing that Dr. Oates should come in against these men that supported his Evidence before Mr. Dugd. My Lord I say further if any Doctor will come forth and say he cured me of a Clap or any such thing I will stand Guilty of all that is imputed to me L. Ch. Just Mr. Colledge will you call any other Witnesses Coll. My Lord I think this is not fair dealing with a man for his Life because these men be upon their Oaths and deny the things again that my Witnesses prove therefore what they swear must needs be taken for truth but if my Witness comes and says such a thing upon the word of a Minister and in the presence of God and which he is ready to maintain by an Oath sure it is not to stand for nothing nor he to be hooted out of Court because Mr. Dugdale denies it upon his Oath I do suppose he will not acknowledge it But my Lord I am the Prisoner and cannot be heard as a Witness for my self but God is my Witness he hath said a great deal more to me formerly and he hath told me when I have seen him with Warcup and asked him why I kept Company with Warcup and others said he I know they are suspected men but I must keep Company with them to get my money what would you have me do starve And when I lent him money out of my Pocket and trusted him with my Horse I dun'd him for money and could not get it said I will you pay me the 5 li. I lent you he put me off said he I shall have it for the Attorney General hath made up his Accompts and is very kind to me why then said I why have you it not said he he is my Friend and I do not question the getting of it but here is new work to be done such work as my Conscience will not serve me to do there is more Roguery they will never have done Plotting and Counterplotting but they will make a thousand Plots if they can to destroy the real one L. Ch. Just Can you prove this now Coll. No it was spoken to my self and no body was by but my self L. Ch. Just Then you should not speak it But you asked the question whether a man may not be believed upon his word as well as he that is upon his Oath Your Witnesses are not upon their Oaths but they may be Witnesses and their weight is to be left with the Jury they will consider how improbable it is that these men should come Three men to One man and all of them should speak that which would make themselves Rogues and Villains and that one man of them Smith should say such vile words as God damn him he would have his blood and God damn the Gospel that Dugdale should confess he was wrought upon by Warcup to testifie against his Conscience and that Turbervile should say to that purpose He would not starve they have sworn the contrary and so there are all these Three mens Oaths against One mans Affirmation but it must be left to the Jury Colledge There is his Affirmation against what they three say He charges every one of them and 't is but the single denial of every one of them to his Charge L. C. J. 'T is improbable they should own themselves such Villains to him Dr. Oats They must be so if they will do what they have undertaken I hope my Word will be believed as soon as their Oaths Colledge It is not to be thought but when they have Sworn so against me they will deny any such thing when they are charged with it L. C. J. Have you done with your Witnesses Or will you call any more Colledge What is said upon an honest mans word in the face of a Court is certainly to be believed as well as what is Sworn L. C. J. 'T is a Testimony that is most certain and must be left to the Jury they must weigh one against the other But pray Mr. Colledge will you call your Witnesses for it begins to grow late Colledge There is Mr. Wilmore that was a material Witness for me who was Foreman of the Grand Jury that would not find the Bill upon this Evidence What he had to say I don't know but I am informed it was very material for me L. C. J. It will be enough for him to clear himself for he is charged with High Treason and by two Witnesses too Colledge Call Alexander Blake L. C. J. What do you ask him Colledge Do you know John Smith Mr. Blake Yes Sir Colledge Pray will you tell the Court what you know of John Smith Mr.
do not put a trick upon us This may be a trick of the Papists to ruine us and if they have such a designe if they will not put it upon you and I they are fools Upon your Lordship said I they may but I am a poor inconsiderable fellow Says my Lord I 'll tell you Mr. Godfrey Mr. Colledge hath not onely been an honest man but an useful and an active man for the Protestant interest So I told my Lord how far I had gone with him and that I desired it might be put in Writing Says my Lord Shaftsbury If he will put it in Writing I will go once again for I have been since I saw the Fellow with my Lord Macclesfield and my Lord Chief Justice Pemberton and my Lord Chancellor and I have told them that there is such a person in general but I knew not the man as indeed my Lord did not for onely Ivy was the person between them that my Lord knew And I told them says my Lord that he can confirm all that Fitz-harris has said concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and that he would prove my Lord of Danby was in it if he might have his Pardon and my Lord said They promised to speak to his Majesty that it might be granted But some time the latter end of the week I heard it would not be granted and both of these men followed me to know what they should do Said I My Lord Shaftsbury knows not but that it may be a Trick and said I to Ivy I wonder why he should conceal it all this while being a necessitous man and 500 l. proffered by the King in his Proclamation Why says Ivy do you think there is no truth in it says I 'T is not my Judgment but my Lord Shaftsbury and Mr. Godfrey's Judgment too He answered me again Fitz-harris hath desired he may have a Pardon granted for himself and a Frenchman and if so be there were nothing in it Do you think he would move for a Pardon Says I Did Mr. Fitz-harris move for Haynes Pardon How do I know that says Ivy again Fitz-harris's Wife told me so Says I Let me speak with Fitz-harris's Wife let me hear her say so and I will believe you The next day he did bring her to me to my house And this was the time and the occasion that brought Fitz-harris's Wife and Haynes and Ivy and Mr. Fitz-harris's Maid to my house and I never saw Fitz-harris in my days till his Trial nor had any Communication with him But my Lord she did talk with Haynes and confirmed it to me That her Husband had desired a Pardon for him Why then said I he would do well to discover what he knows to my Lord Shaftsbury for I was with my Lord and he says he will meddle no more unless he will give it under his hand what he has to say And he did confess to me in my own Yard for there we were together That he saw my Lord of Danby come into the Chappel at Sommerset-House when the Body of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey lay under the Altar L. C. J. Here hath been nothing of this made appear by proof Colledge My Lord I onely tell you which way they introduced themselves into my Acquaintance L. C. J. You may observe what you will upon the Evidence as we told you but you ramble from the matter you are to speak to And as we told Mr. Attorney that what he said should go for nothing unless he made it out by proof so must we say to you what you say goes for nothing further than you have proved it Now you have quitted the Proof quite and not spoke to that but run into other stories I would have you keep your self to your Proofs and make your Observations upon them Colledge 'T is as I humbly conceive it to my purpose but I hope my ignorance may excuse me if I erre I tell you the truth of things thus it was L. C. J. Truth Why if yours or any man's word in your case should go for truth no man that stands at a Bar could be convicted for every man will say he is an honest man and all the plausible things in the world Make you your Observations upon the Proof that is proper for you to do and urge it as well as you can and to the best purpose you can but to tell us long stories of passages between you and others that are not a whit proved that is not usual nor pertinent Colledge I thought it had been to the point when this man pretends to have a familiarity with me to shew how his Acquaintance begun Mr. Just Jones Why do you think 't is an Answer to him in what he proves upon his Oath Have you proved one jot of it not that I have heard 'T is your part to sum up the Evidence on your own side and to answer that which is proved upon you if you can Do that and we will hear you speak to it as long as you can But to tell stories to amuse the Jury with that are not proved and to run out into rambling discourses to no purpose that is not to be allowed nor never was in any Court of Justice Mr. Just Raymond Not one of your Witnesses have mentioned any thing that you say Mr. Just Levins I wonder Mr. Colledge you should forget your self so much for you found fault with Mr. Attorney at the beginning for opening the Evidence and you were told and the Jury were told at your request that what he said and did not prove passed for nothing But I must tell you 't is much worse in your case for Mr. Attorney onely opened what he might prove afterwards but your Observations are upon what hath been proved already and yet you run out into stories of what hath not been proved at all after your Proof is past Colledge Sir I could not prove this otherwise than by Ivy who hath been sworn against me Mr. Just Jones Would you have the Jury to believe you upon your word Colledge There is no more than his Oath against me and why my Oath being an English-man and a Protestant should not be taken as well as his that is an Irish-man and hath been a Papist I know not L. C. J. You go upon that ground that your word is to be taken as appears by your defence but I must tell you all the course of Justice were destroyed and no Justice against Malefactors were to be had if the word of him that is accused should pass for proof to acquit him Colledge My Lord I have given your Lordship an account of these fellows Conversations and what other Proofs to make I know not for I knew not what they would swear against me and I had not Witnesses in my Pocket to confront them Mr. Just Levins Well the Jury have heard it over and over again first upon your request that nothing is to be taken notice of that