Scripture as Moses I can answer you Why did not David a man after Gods owne heart build the Temple as well as Solomen but because it was the pleasure of the Lord that Solomon should rayse a Trophee of Honour to his Name for ever So why did not Abraham lead the Children of Israel into Canaan and write that which Moses writ but because the Lord had a minde to shew himself to be a great God and above all others and his power over Pharaoh and the unbelieving Egyptians by the hand of his servant Moses who brought the Children of Israel over the Red Sea and out of thraldome that they might Know that he was the Lord and Moses his Propher which by Abraham could not so well have beene shewne for that the Children of Israel had neyther number to testifie his Works nor affection to value them And for the injustice you taxe God with in condemning the Righteous with the Wicked I answer That if you will a nature you must allow a God or Providence which is good and all things to have their being from him as the World and all things that be in it Man being then in it must needs be made by him And if so then must hee have power over soule and body And having so you may allow the Election of him eyther to salvation or damnation both being just For if six men be condemned and three of them get the Kings Pardon are the other three unjustly dealt with Or if a man hire two and give one as much as hee promised and the other more is he that hath his due unjustly dealt with I say no but they ought all to think well those that have their deserts and those that have above then So then allowing God this power as every man may do what he vvill vvith his ovvn Then may you very vvell believe that the good vvhich vvere before Iacob vvere saved as being elected in Christ as the Scriptures say before the beginning of the World and many of the other by the mercy of him that made them A. This is no answer to me for now we argue to prove the likelyhood of the truth or falsehood of the Scripture and you quote Scripture in your Argument But answer me with reason how could they according to your Scripture be saved that believed not in the Messias and how doe you prove by your Scripture that any that lived in the times before Iacob knew of his comming C. I say where you will use Scripture against me you may allow me Scripture to answer you and it was promised from the beginning that the feed of the woman should breake the serpents head A. This is nothing because as aforesaid C. I shall refer that to judgement But the Prophecies of the Scripture with the marvellous things that have been done by the beleevers in it shew plainly that there is no truth but there no Religion but there no hope of salvation but there And first for the Prophesies The curse of Noah on Cham wherein he saith A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren which is meant of himselfe and his posterity to Iaphet and Sem and then again of Ismael the sonne of Abraham where it is said His hand shall be against every man and every mans hand against him Both which we see verified at this day for at the division of the world between the sonnes of Noah Africa fell into the posterity of Cham which people are at this day the greatest slaves that can be they being servants to servants and sold generally as horses to those that will give most for them it being the onely trade into America to carry the natives of Congo and Guiney Countries of Africa thither where they worke in the mines and at the sugar mils or any vile worke which no others will undertake in which their labour they became vassals and subject to the servants of others And for the Ismalites carriage it is well known to those that passe from Aleppo to Ierusalem or Bagdet or from Grancaro to Ierusalem or to any other part of Africa for though they are generally in the Turks dominions yet can none of his Subjects passe to the places abovesaid without drawn swords of the Ismalites in their teeths and about them for a reward for their peaceable passing And then for the vvonders that have been done by the beleevers in this Lavv look on Moses Ioshua Gedeon Samson David and his Worthies and the Prophets and their incomparable acts are without number Therefore seriously consider on vvhat I have said and turne from that vvicked condition you are in to my faith and my beliefe that I may love you as a brother and not hate you as one vvicked and an enemy to God and your ovvn soul Come let me persvvade you A. First for the Prophesies you speake of and the truth of them and how they are verified in the sonnes of Cham and Ismael I answer that the same condition are the sonnes of Sem in who are said to possesse Asia and not a few of those of Europe for first look on the great Turk and on his possessions in Eu ope and Asia and then the conditions of those in his Dominions who are all slaves and the great Officers in his Court and the rest of his servants and Souldiers being slaves themselves to him have their slaves also under them which may bee called slaves to slaves And on the Tartarians Persians Mogulls Chineans Japanders all the East Indians in all which Countries you may finde multitudes of slaves to be sold and few or none of Africa amongst them and in Africa there are many places where there be numbers of slaves of other parts as in particular the City of Argier where there are not so few as eight thousand of your own Nation and as many of the Spanish French and Italians that live in as great bondage as any in the World And for that of Ismael as much as you can say of his posterity may be said of the Owsecockey on the Gulf of Venice and many of the Scythians and Grim Tartars and for the men of might you speak of look on Moses and on Romulus both beginning of nothing both cunning both honoured after their deaths as Gods both valiant and hardy men the like comparison may be made between Joshua and Theseus Gideon and Scanderbeg Samson and Hercules David and Corelanus c. C. In your answer to mee in this point of Ismael and Cham you doe not disprove the truth of Scripture For though you instance the thraldome of other Nations you do not deny but that the Children of Cham are generally slavish and though you answer but poorly the condition of the Ismaelites with that of the Owsecockey and Tartars and Scythians yet you do not deny that the Prophecie is made good in them as if a man be told he shall break his neck if it happens that another man comes to
the same end as well as hee his Fortune is not mistold therefore be satisfied of the truth of the Scripture and let me perswade you to believe it A. I am not yet resolved nor will by your fallacies but keep stedfastly to my opinion to the last and whereas you say your reasons are beyond mine I suppose not and your perswading me to your opinion and judgment works not on me because you are of it For I should rather chuse any thing then the opinion of an Englishman a people compacted of the worst of all Nations the scorn of the World the best of you all being bred up Apes from your cradles and have nothing in you but what you learn of others traytours to your selves and Countrey naturally simple giddy Coxcombs pernitious treacherous uncertain people such as for uncertain profits will sell your God and Countrey and their Honour with your owne and your Posterities The worst of my expressions are too good to bestow on you therefore forbeare to urge any more your frivolous demands C. You barred passion and yet use it in the unworthiest manner not like a Gentleman For can there be any thing so offensive to me as the abuse of my Countrey a place dearer to me then mine own honour your words are generall and extend to all persons my selfe and friends For speaking to the English in generall you except not me but include me and all that have relation to mee Therefore since you have gone so far from the principle we first disputed in you must give mee the same priviledge and leave to demand proof of what you say or an accompt of your words on your knees or with your sword And know that I grant you an unusuall favour in permitting you leave to prove it by perticulars A. I was never brought up a sword-man but yet in regard I have said I will maintain it and if I prove my allegations true then will there be little cause of offence in you in regard I shall make you know what you never knew before and so be the cause of your improvement in knowledge C. Come to the perticulars A. Whereas I have said that you are a people compacted of the worst of all Nations it is most easily proved to you by the generall opinion of your own Nation by whom I have heard your Pedigree derived some from the Normans others from some other part of France some from the Netherlands others from high Germanie Denmarke Swethia Westphalia Norway c. and to prove the unworthinesse of your Progenitors of those Nations nothing is so evident as their parting with their Countrey to undertake others uncertain and unknown for you prove it by your undertaking war with a Forrainer which you always doe with the worst of your people which by presse you force from the honester sort to undertake such dangerous designes This with the courteous entertainment you give to strangers as Mountebanks all sorts of creatures of other Countries which are most welcome and most estemed confirms your bastardy for were you a people of one stock you would stick together as Allies and Kindred against all forreign opposition but to the contrary you adhere to forrainers though to the totall overthrow of your Nation as in the correspondencie is had between the great ones of your Countrey with most Princes who know of all the chiefest passages of your State sooner then they are peoclaimed in your own Countrey nay oftentimes directed beyond sea and acted there and in my remembrance the businesse of Rochell and the Isle of Ree when you had opportuninles to advance the English Standard farther into France then ever Henry the fifth carried it for had he the assistance of Burgundy you had the assistance of Spain much greater Had he one French subject for him you had three French Protestant Subjects for you And though the Kingdom of France be greater by Britany and other places then it was then yet was the Kingdom of England greater by Wales Ireland and Scotland then it was at that time But I being then in France knew how the proceedings would be as well before they begun as you did when they were ended and the same I can say of the last voyage to Cales and let the losse of Rosingen Lautor Wayre Poolway and Poolouroon in the East Indies with all the English authority over the Islands of Banda to the Dutch testifie the simplicity and corruptnesse of your Nation for as they were lost by surprize in time of peace so might they have been comanded back again without infringement of the league by the English fleet with much ease But as I have been credibly informed a bribe to D.B. of ten thousand pounds with some other petty sums caused you to quit further claime to them places at this day worth unto the Hollanders three hundered thousand pounds per annum a people that scorne and trample on your Nation where ever they meet you as in the East India Straits and German Sea which you say is yours Greenland a place first discovered by the English and possest in the name of your King where his Arms were erected which they pulled down and so vilifying him and your whole Nation with cowardlinesse simplenusse and all ignominious expressions which that foule mouth'd people could utter making themselves masters of that trade and at Amboyna in the East India racking beheading chaining you on ships without meat or drink when you were scorched with the fiery heate of the sunne throwing you into dunghils easing themselves over you with all manner of revilings against you which were testified by many sufferers in the calamity at your Councell Teble The dishonourable Treaties you make with your neighbours so much to their advantage and your prejudice such as the meanest Nation scorne to accept of from their enemies and the French-mens actions are patterns for you in all your undertakings excepting in their respect to their own Nation nay the principall Ladies of your Countrey cannot goe without a French Gentleman-usher to lead them and their husbands are so opinionated of them that they thinke their Ladies are never perfectly bred untill a French-man teacheth them to hold their legs and carry their feet and place their lute while he toucheth it after the French fashion And your gallants are generally so Alla mode that they leave not any thing undone that may make themselves and their Masters perfectly French which your Doctors that are good at the Morbus can well testifie Are you not a people pieced together with the stuffe of other Nations in all particulars As for example a French man comes somtimes into your Court and for a great while knows not whither he be in France or England there is such a simpathy in the nature of a French-man with an English-man he findes no difference in the inclination of his own and your Countrey women onely a more pronenesse to embrace the true French made then they are In
and spirituall wisdome as the Bishop and Cardinals of Rome are And the Scripture being of more Antiquity then the Romish Religion from whence he pretends to take it the Church of England being grounded on that and not on mans imaginations as the Church of Rome in what it differs from ours is the more ancient Church And it is authentically proved by severall Authors of our Nation when and at what time the Tenets of the Church of Rome which differ from the Church of England were brought into it and by what Councell most of them being within nine hundered yeares But we confesse there was a Church in Rome before there was one in England Rome to be the place from whence the Faith was generally established in England But sence the corruption that was drawn in for the advantage of the Romish Church hath altered it from the purenesse of it at its converting ours to the Faith which was the cause that we fell from it to the state we now are in which is the same with its first institution A. Well then let that passe But for multitude there is a greater number of Mahumetans then of your profession and therefore according to that Argument you should fall to that beliefe C. I say no For the Scripture sayth We must not follow a multitude to do evill A. Why we agreed on confuting or proving by reason the truth of the Scripture Therefore I le barr that as a Plea But answer mee to the Argument with your reason C Well then I say that there is as great a multitude of Christians as of Mahumetans for although most part of Asia be Mahumetans yet almost all Europe except some few in Greece and Hungaria are Christians And for Africa the Kingdomes of Prety Janni with the Territorie of the Spaniards and Portugueses here and converts of America may compare with the remainder Mahumetans A. Well but for the antiquity of your Religion what can be said but that if you would plead for that and because that great and mighty Princes have received the Faith and lived and dyed in it you say that is the signe of the truth of it C. I say one signe A. Well I shall answer that one and your other after and first for this Whereas you say that it is a signe it is the truth in regard of the long continuance of the opinion of Moses inspiration with a divine and heavenly spirit and so consequently of the Law he writ and of the truth of it I answer That look on the people of America and those of Japan and all the people of the South Sea and you shall find they will tell you that their Faith hath endured ever since the World was no History being able to contradict but the Scripture doth speak of Baals Priests that launced their flesh and cryed out Baal heare us and of the Heathens that lived about the children of Israel which made their children to passe through the fire to the God Moloch and many such like customes are spoken of there to be used among the Heathen which at this day are used amongst those of America and the other places abovesaid which proves the Antiquity of their Customs and therefore should they be followed No an anciēt custom is nothing to prove the truth or cōveniency of a thing but rather the weaknesse of those that live so long in sottish ignorance C. You speake now of a company of barbarous simple people A. To you they may seeme so but not to themselves nor to some others and they have greater reason to condemn Christians for barbarousnesse then we to condemne them For the acts of the Spaniards have been so inhumane with them they have overcome that it is certainly known there have been 1100000 of harmlesse Indians in America cruelly butchered without cause or offence given by them as their own writers report But as the Persians seemed to the Grecians to be barbarous so the Grecians seemed no lesse barbarous to them and as all fools think wise men to be so or else they would learn of them to be wise so all wise men think fools to be so by their foolish acts and who shall judge this controversie neither party but the stander by And if it be so why then shall we not take the opinion of the ancient Philosophers as of Diogenes and others that lived that course of life that they took not care for to morrow which is the custom amongst them and for a civill kinde of humane curtesie they equalled them in all passages being as is reported by the first discoverers the most gentle and courteous people living And indeed my opinion tels me that the Irish men in their Rugge and trouses which is their constant weare are not so barbarous as the French who alter their habit oftner then a Cameleon doth her colour But goe into China a place generally accounted to have as subtile in habitants and as great multitudes of them as are in any petticular Dominion of the World their Chronicles informing them their Religion is as ancient as the creation of the world and that they record to be of above 6000. years continuance counting the yeare as we doe and they have as good oportunities for their knowledge of the truth as we for they say Printing is as ancient with them as History with us Therefore if you will be of a Religion or an opinion because the wise are of the same the learned are of the same a multitude are of the same and the Ancients were of the same then you may be of the Religion or opinion of the Chinians and according to your own rule In England the more Southeasterly you goe the wiser the people are as the French are wiser then the English the Italians wiser then the French and the Grecians wiser then them then consequently it must follow the people of Turkie and of Persia and the Mogores Countrey men to be wiser then the wisest of Europe and the people of China lying most Sontheastesly without you will come home again by America to be the wisest of the World and therefore to bee followed in custome and Religion C. Although I doe not so much stand on the Antiquity of the Religion I professe as I doe on the reasons that I can give to prove the verity of it yet dare I maintain its antiquity maugre all opposition For the story of China to passe over that of America I say I conceive that the Religion there according as it is reported is the simplest Religion in the World their supposed gods being always in their houses made of wood or clouts to which they worship and doe reverence which is contrary to ours for we worship him that made us and they worship that which they have made and were they so wise as the report goeth of them they are I cannot thinke they would doe such ridiculous things therefore the report of their wisdom seems as strange
to take order for his further safety came amongst them the King asked him how he came thither hee said by his wisdome and industry the King bid lay hold on him his servants answered that they could heare him but not see him he went away the King followed him to a river over which he stretching his handkerchief puffed and was then seen of them all he in vain pursued him with their boats for the same day hee went ten dayes journey from thence to Elghamaria and so proceded untill that on a bribe given by a Turkish King of 10000 pound to his father in Law Smaldin for which one night as he slept hee beheaded him This is as strange an act as ever was done by Christ And are there not many more which I can name that have done great and strange things yes Benbarchosin Benchoab Motes Lemlen R. David c. and yet were few of them believed because the Rabbins received not their signes And whereas you interpret the Old Testament to figure at the comming of your Saviour in a meane obscure way and onely for a spirituall Kingdom they say that he must bee borne unto the Kingdom of Jerusalem as well as to the Kingdom of heaven and come in glory and power and take off the yoke that the Jews are so much opprest with and give into their hands the temporall and spirituall power exalting them above all the people of the earth And I have heard a Jew that hath gone to dispute with a Christian and he out of your own Scripture hath so pussed him that he knew not what to say for the first Question hath set him up which hath been to bid him prove by the New Testament your own book that your Saviour came of the seed of David and of the loynes of Juda vvhich he could not doe For the Genealogie of Matthew Chap. 1. onely proves the descent of Ioseph and not of Mary of vvhom came your Christ vvhich you say is not part of the man for you say shee conceived with the Holy Ghost therefore this descent is left uncertain and untill you prove that you shall draw me to believe if in any the Old before the New Law C. For your comparing Christ with an imposture it is most blasphemously done of you For what are these you name are they better seeked they not their own ends more then Gods and the salvation of the world did not they desire to be Kings or to have rule and power over other mens bodies souls and estates did they not make disturbances in the Countrey and would have hindered Caesar from his right which were sufficient badges of their impostury And to the contrary ours came and preached love unity and concord among his believers and gave to Caesar though a Heathen his due Hee for all his Cures asked neyther shooe to his foot not clothes to his back and notwithstanding them had not wherewith to hide himselfe as hee declareth and is testified of him And for Josephus he was a Levit and Christ comming overthrew their profession amongst his believers and took away their tenths and benefits they had by their Priesthood and should hee have left that testimony of him as he deserved it would have wrought so much on the wise following posterity of the Iews that they would have cryed with those that saw his works There was never such a man not such things done in Israel Which is cause enough for him to speake so little of him that did so much And could any after death rayse up the body as hee did No you finde that in the death of those false Christs which our blessed Saviour speaks of after death hath passed then end their devices but his acts were greater after his death then before as in spight of his Watchmen to rayse up his body and joyning it to his soule and then appearing amongst his believers and conferring the spirit of wisdom and power on his Apostles then passing to Eternity with soule and body And what you have heard betvveen a Iew and a Christian is nothing for it shevvs the Iew pragmaticall and the Christian ignorant For as the first Chapter of Matthew shevvs the Genealogie of Ioseph so that of Luke shevveth that of Mary For though it be not Maries in perticular name yet is it most cleere that Ioseph had not two fathers therefore one must needs be accompted Maries A. What you say is somthing but not sufficient to satisfie me I 'le take the words of your own Scripture to condemne you which are A good tree is known by his fruit and can a man gather figs of thistles or grapes of thorne trees We may I say if there were that truth as you pretend there is in Scripture would it not shew it selfe in the professors of it But to the contrary there is so much iniquity in you Christians that take you from the meanest to the greatest all orders and sects whatsoever and there is nothing but deceit covetousnesse whordome adultery drunkennesse swearing gluttony false heartednesse extortion pride Sodomy incest lying stealing all things in greater proportion then amongst the Turks Ethnicks or the most vile of any profession that now is or ever was Is not Religion the colour for the vilest procedings that are doe not the Princes and States of Europe cloke with that their murther plunderings rapine and oppression in the vilest manner Is not that the pretence for the martyring of many soules by the Pope and bloudy Inquisitors and Religion is generally so slightly set by by your selves that from one accounted a very honest man but of the Brownist Sect I heard say that rather then the Pope or English Bishops should come to be established in the Kingdom where he lived hee would that the Turke should prevaile over it they being three the most eminent professors of Christ I marvailed much at his saying in respect as well of the temporall government as the spitituall But recollecting my memory I thought that hee might as well say so as the rest believe and doe as they doe and to discover to you how much the heavens frown on your chiefe deceivers that is the Clergie and Priests of each Christian Sect and in perticular in your Countrey where they are allowed to marry there is scarce a grand childe or childe remaining through the Kingdom of England of any order of Priesthood that is either noble rich or vertuous in any great measure though there are not so few as 100000 beneficed men at all times in your Kingdom Therefore take this for your absolute ansvver that I vvill not be like that simple Courtier vvho being in much honour and esteem vvith his Prince and Countrey for a bribe and hope of better preferment sels his present and future certain honour and profit for expectance of greater from another and so loseth both No I will be sure of the pleasure is certain and enjoy my selfe vvhile I may and run the hazard