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truth_n believe_v find_v scripture_n 1,836 5 5.8578 4 false
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A31340 A relation of some of the most material matters that passed in a publick dispute at Thriploe in Cambridgeshire the 15th day of the 2d month 1676 between Francis Holdcraft and Joseph Odde his assistant, both Presbyterian priests, on the one party, and Samuel Cater with some others of the Friends of truth called Quakers Cater, Samuel, d. 1711.; Holcroft, Francis, 1629?-1693.; Odde, Joseph.; Webb, John, 17th cent.; Baker, Jacob. 1676 (1676) Wing C1488; ESTC R29185 7,064 9

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delivered she remembers no more her pain for joy that a Man is born into the World S. C. This is no proof for Christ does not say that it was a Man before it was born F. H. Children are sinners before they are born for David says I was shapen in iniquity and in sin hath my Mother Conceived me S. C. Whether was the sin in the Mother or in the Child for Christ speaks of the state of a little Child to be happy for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven and you say some Children are for Hell and Destruction which is a damnable Doctrine and altogether contrary to the Scriptures and to the mind of God revealed therein which says God would have all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth and therefore made none for destruction but Mans destruction is of himself for want of receiving and obeying of Christ the Son of his Love who is come a Light into the World that all Men through him might believe John 1. 7. F. H. There is none shall be saved but such as are elected S. C. You are strangers to that election which hold that God hath made one man for Salvation and another for destruction as they are the Workmanship of his own Hands But Francis I ask thee this question Whether thou thy self be one of these elect thou speakest of F. H. Yes I am S. C. And how camest thou to be so F. H. By the free Grace of God S. C. And doth not this same Grace appear unto all men for the saving and electing of all as it doth unto thee F. H. No I deny that S. C. I 'le prove by the Scripture that it does People look in your Bibles and look into Titus 2. 11. and you may read it as I say F. H. I will Read it my self S. C. Do so F. H. Read thus The Grace of God that brought Salvation hath appeared unto Men. S. C. Thou Readst wrong and takes from the Scripture thou leavest out the word All Read it as it is in thy own Book F. H. I Read it as it is in the Greek for it is not so in the Greek as it is in our Books An indifferent person standing by called unto him and told him Francis what do you bring your Bible hither for if it be wrong translated S. C. We have no reason to go from the plain words of Scripture to believe thee for we believe the Scripture speaks as true in this as in any other things that it declares of and further we understand the things of God in the Language in which we were born and we would not be so shuffled off or baffled out of our belief of the truth of the Scriptures to believe what thou or any man says who say they are not true and I told him then I believed he did say that which was not true of the Greek Copies and as I then said so I have since found it to be for since I desired some that understood the Greek and Latine Tongues and the word All Men which he would not read and impudently said it was not in the Greek which you may here read Apparuit enim gratia Dei salvatoris nostri omnibus hominibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Whereby all men may see this mans deceit who makes lyes his refuge and under falshood hides himself but in the light he is seen and by the Children of the light made manifest and his unfruitful works of darkness detected and his Religion seen to be vain who does not bridle his Tongue from lying and slandering of the Innocent which is known to have been his practice these several years and yet so continues whereby he renders evil towards us for good who suffered him to shelter himself under us to get out of prison F. H. Pretended to shake the dust off his feet and went his way S. C. Deceit if thou goest away remember that thou hast not yet proved that we are such as thou hast said we are and I warn thee to cease from railing against us any more and this further I have to offer thee and Joseph Odde I would have you both fit down and hear for I have somthing upon me to declare to the people and I shall open my heart freely before you and them and speak as to the things we have been speaking of and if I speak any thing contrary to Scripture you shall have your liberty by the Scripture to reprove me but they hastened away with railing words in their mouths and we continued some time together in which I cleared my Conscience to all that were there present and then we parted to our places in peace having committed our Testimony unto the Witness of God in every ones Conscience which is the equal measure of what was said and done that day And thus we have given an account in part of that days proceedings for the satisfying of all that desire to know the Truth of the matter for the stopping of all false reports which envious persons may spread abroad the which we hear these men are not wanting in otherwise we could have been contented to have been silent and to have left it without further publication to the Witness of God in the Consciences of those who heard us that day who are Friends to all men and in that we generally desire their Everlasting Peace and Rest with God in the Kingdom of his Dear Son S. Cater J. Webb J. B.