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A80765 The disputes between Mr. Cranford, and Dr. Chamberlen. At the house of Mr. William Webb, at the end of Bartholomew Lane, by the Old Exchange: on March 1. 1652, and April 1. 6. 13. / Published for the satisfaction of all that love the truth. Cranford, James, d. 1657.; Chamberlen, Peter, 1601-1683. 1652 (1652) Wing C6822; Thomason E666_6; ESTC R206920 19,015 40

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Con. Therefore baptized Churches baptize such as shall be saved Mr. Cr. and some of his Party began to deride and say this was in gyro idem per idem All that are saved confesse and believe All that confesse and believe are saved Said Dr. Chamb. it is the greater truth in being reciprocal according to all the rules of truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With this the Company seemed to acquiesce in continuation of this promiscuous discourse Mr. Cranf used the word Renegado againe and said that baptized Churches baptized such as denyed the Faith not such as professed the Faith therefore we were all Renegadoes Dr. Chamb. replied I shall prove you so Mr. Cranf bid him do Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that practise what they neither have command nor example for practise what they should not Mi. But you who sprinkle Infants practise what you neither have command nor example for Mr. Cranf cried out is this to prove us Renegadoes Make your Conclusion Said Dr. Chamb. I was loath to use words of provocation and that are not written but Mr Cranf continuing in derision Dr. Chamb. said then I le prove you Renegadoes They that speak Lyes in Hipocrisie are Renegadoes But you speak Lyes in Hypocrisie Here the meeting broke up abruptly The last meeting between Mr. Cranford and Dr. Chamberlen at Mr. Webbs house at Bartholomew Lane end was on the 13. of April 1652. THe Question was still Whether Ministers of London Presbyterian Ministers were the Ministers of Jesus Christ Mr. Cranf as before Respondent Dr. Chamb. Opponent After Prayer as formerly the Dispute began in writing being so agreed the time before Dr. Chamb. began his Argument thus Ma. They that are Ministers of Jesus Christ are Ordained by Jesus Christ Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are not Ordained by Jesus Christ Con. Therefore they are not Ministers of Jesus Christ Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor The Ministers are Ordained by Jesus Christ Mediately Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that are Ordained by Antichrist are not Ordained by Jesus Christ Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by Antichrist Con. Therefore they are not Ordained by Jesus Christ Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares are Ordained by Antichrist Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they are Ordained by Antichrist Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor Dr. Chamb. Ma. They that are ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they are Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negatur Minor Dr. Chamb. Ma. They who were Ordained by the Bishops of England and their Successours within these thousand yeares are Ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mi. But Presbyterian Ministers of London are Ordained by Bishops of England and their Successors within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they are Ordained by those who were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negatur Major Dr. Chamb. Ma. If they were Ordained by the Power or Ministers of the Pope c. then they were Ordained by the Pope c. Mi. But they were Ordained by the Power or Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Con. Therefore they were Ordained by the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negat Min. Dr. Chamb. Ma. If the Bishops of England within these thousand years were not Ordained by the Power nor Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Then there were some Bishops in King Henry 7. and K. Hen. 8. dayes neither Ordained by the Pope nor Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Mi. But there were no such Bishops in K. Hen. 7. nor King Hen. 8. dayes Con. Therefore they were Ordained by the Power or Ministers of the Pope within these thousand yeares Mr. Cranf Negat Mi. Dr. Chamb. Name any Mr. Cranf do you prove there were none Dr. Chamb. Ma. If there were any such then either they were allowed or disalowed Min. But there were neither any allowed nor disallowed that were such Con. Therefore there were none such Mr. Cranf Negat Minor None of the allowed Ministers were Ordained by the Pope Dr. Chamb. Ma. If the Pope had power at that time to place and displace whom he pleased then they were Ordained by the Pope Mi. But the Pope had power to place and displace whom he pleased Con. Therefore they were Ordained by the Pope Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Minor est falsa Dr. Chamb. Power of Ordination you grant is Approbation and Imposition of hands Ma. If their placing and displacing were a consequence of their Ordination then the consequence is true Mi. But their placing and displacing was a consequence of their Ordination Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Dr. Chamb. Ma. If the Pope had power of placing and displacing of Bishops then he had power of their Ordination Mi. But the Pope had power of placing and displacing of Bishops If placing and displacing of Bishops be greater then their Ordination then the Pope who did place and displace did also Ordaine Mr. Cranford Negatur consequentia The Civil Magistrate may remove or displace Ministers but may not Ordaine Ministers To place and displace is not greater then to Ordaine Dr. Chamb. Ma. If what the Pope did he did it as an Officer of the Church and it was so publickly acknowledged then the consequence is true Mi. But what the Pope did he did it as an Officer of the Church and it was so publickly acknowledged Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Though the Pope had power to do it he did not do it Some discourses as betwwen all the rest of the latter Syllogisme interrupted the clear dispute and then Dr. Chamb. followed with this argument to the discourse that was Ma. If all the particular parts and faculties of the Church of England were under the power and Ministry of the Pope of Rome then Bishops were Ordained by the power of the Pope of Rome Mr. Cranf Negat consequentia Dr. Chamb. Ma. If so then Ordination is no part or faculty of the Church Mi. But Ordination is a part Ergo. Mr. Cranf Ne. consequentia Minor etiam est falsa The Church of Rome though it were Ulcerous yet was a true Church of Christ as a man is a man though full of Ulcers Truth came out of the Church of Rome The Scriptures that have been conveyed through the Church of Rome are true Scriptures Dr. Chamb. denyed that Truth came out of the Church of Rome or that the Scriptures were conveyed through the Ulcerous Church of Rome What is of their conveyance is not true Mr. Cranf often acknowledged that the Church of Rome was Ulcerous and Dr.
Chamb. upon it replied that we may then take up the lamentation of the Prophet Isa 1.5 6. From the sole of the foot even to the head there is no soundnesse c. But can a clean thing come out of an uncleane Job 14.4 Doth a fountaine send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter Jer. 3.11 12. Do men gather Grapes of Thornes or Figgs of Thistles Mat. 7.16 17 18. Luke 6.43 44. Either make the Tree good and the Fruit good or the Tree corrupt and the Fruit corrupt Mat. 12.33 Many other things were spoken on both sides which could not be written down and indeed this Dispute was the most disorderly because some things were written and some not By reason whereof it is probable that both Mr. Cranf and Dr. Chamb. might have their thoughts diverted from a clear pursute of their Dispute and Dr. Chamb. at this time was so ill that he was scarce able to speak for Hoarsnesse Yet the Arguments will sufficiently shew what might fully have been proved in the matter And many other Arguments were provided All which may hereafter be mentioned if there be occasion They that are desirous of Truth may hereby be whetted on to a further enquiry if they be not satisfied They that are not desirous but of itching eares 2 Tim. 4.3 this is too much for He that is of God heareth Gods Word John 8.47 and 10.27 Something may chance be further brought to memory if Mr. Cranf or his Party shall think good to adde their Collections also Upon misreports of these Disputes these following Letters were occasioned which losing their place in the beginning are thus added for the better manifestation of the occasion of the Presse Erata IN Page 11. For you would fain draw me to believe it but you shall not draw me to it with horses Read Doctor I perceive what you would faine draw me to but you shall not do it with all the Cart-ropes and horses in Towne Meaning as we supposed Infants Baptisme For my much respected Friend Mr. CRANFORD SIR THere are some think much that so many hours of Discourse should be buried in a Napkin you may be pleased to unfold it to the World to prevent the overspreading of mis-informations unlesse you desire I should do it Let Truth be set up on a hill They that look upwards will see it they that love it will receive it They that receive it not in love may then justly be given over to strong delusions 2 Thes 2.10 11. Sir Let us not study our selves more then the Glory of God Your loving Friend PETER CHAMBERLEN April 19. 1652. Be pleased to return me your Answer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sir THe discourse that passed between us was undertaken by me upon a particular occasion and hath had its effect and done that work which I intended It is neither in my purpose to unfold it to the World nor in my desire that you should there are books enough already of this argument out of which they that desire satisfaction out of love to the Truth may by the blessing of God receive it to which our discourse will add little if any thing Yet if you have a mind to be printing I pray you deale ingenuously and truely in your Relation I conclude as you the Lord give us that we may study our selves lesse and the Truth and glory of God more Sir I rest Yours to serve you as I may JA. CRANFORD April 24. 1652. For my Reverend Friend Mr. CRANFORD SIR I Have no itch to provoke the spleen of men against me as all printing of the truth will But it having been reported that you had so convinced me as to make me forsake the Faith which I do professe and had subscribed to your Party I suppose I am bound to let the Truth appear to the contrary by giving as nigh as I can the true relation of what passed between us not endeavouring so much to remember the weaknesses as the main scope so solemnly protested before the Lord to enquire after the Truth so that having those things before your eyes you may have opportunity in coole thoughts to meditate thereupon and give glory to the living God and purchase assured comfort to your own soul in obeying the Truth And Sir I beseech you consider whether Paul were more glorious when he was riding to Damascus with Power and Authority and Attendants given him from the once beloved people of God against the true Churches or when being reviled and persecuted he escaped for his life in a Basket and ranne to Jerusalem Acts 9. When he profited more than many of his Equals in the Traditions of his Fathers or when he preached the Faith which once he destroyed Gal. 1.14 23. Yet Sir you may now professe the Truth upon easier termes I beseech you in the Lord consider what a miserable Ordination that must be which is squeezed out of an ulcerous Chuch as you confesse it and to believe that the most Holy God with such sacrifices can be well pleased Consider also what a strange kind of Discipline that must be that must be found in the Mothers belly as you say Children are taught in their Parents and what a refuge is this to pick out Children out of the Disciples of Moses in John 9.28 Therefore I humbly desire you in all Christian love and faithfullnesse to lay to heart whether it will not be better for you once for all to deny your self and confesse the Truth then to be alwaies subject upon all occasions of discourses or controversie concerning these and some other points to have such poor refuges and weak evasions Consider also what Glory you may bring to Almighty God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ in bringing many to confesse the Truth with you and no more to resist the Spirit of Truth and power of the Word of God Sir I know none can come unto Christ but those whom the Father draweth Joh. 6.44.65 and all that the Father hath given him shall come unto him v. 37. of which number if you be I professe I shall be willing to contribute all my endeavours and to hazard my life for you and look upon you as so much the more precious by how much not many wise c. are called 1 Cor. 1.26 so praying for you to the Lord who is able to doe abundantly above what we can ask or think I rest Yours in the Lord PET. CHAMBERLEN April 26. 1652.