of all men who can complaine iustly when it is spoken of The Lord put into the hart of our gouernours to redresse it The same Lord heape his graces vpon your Lordship with increase of honor in his world and euerlasting life in the world to come Amen Your Honours most humble to command GEORGE GIFFORD A Contention betweene a Papist and a Professor of the Gospell PAPIST I Am glad to see you well Sir for old acquaintance sake which I would be content to renew againe Pro. I am glad also that you are in health I saw you not a great while before now Pa. I pray ye what newes were ye at London lately What is become of the Catholikes I heare there hath bene great disputation in the Tower Pro. There hath béene disputation indeed by reason of a proude challenge which was made Pa. Ye might terme it a proude challenge if he had not bene able to make his part good But I heare he behaued himselfe very learnedly and with great victorie against all which were set vppon him Pro. Ye haue heard moe lies then that but I perceiue ye are a Papist or at the least a fauourer of Papists for they bragge that he did excellently although in very déede he was there shewed to be but an obstinate cauiller Pa. Wherefore should ye call me Papist I am obedient to the lawes and do not refuse to go to the Church Pro. Then it seemeth you are a Church Papist Pa. A Church Papist what meane you by that Pro. Do you not know I will tell ye there are Papists which wil not come at the Church and there are Papists which can kéepe their conscience to themselues and yet go to Church of this latter sort it seemeth you are because ye go to the Church Pa. How can you tell what is in mens consciences you take vpon ye to iudge very deeply Pro. Nay there needeth no déepe iudgement they are so shallow that a man may easily sound them to the bottome Although the Church wals be thicke yet a man may espie them by some creuise Pa. Whereby do you know them so easily I pray by what notes can ye discerne them Pro. Some of them will not sticke to maintaine such popish opinions as they know there is no great danger of law for The simple sort which can no skill of doctrine speake of the mery world when there was lesse preaching and when all things were so cheape that they might haue xx egs for a penny Other there be which neuer name Papists but Catholikes if ye reason with them they do it but for arguments sake not that they say so but the Catholikes say so Another sort there are those are as pestilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater mischiefe they are Protestants but yet if any Preacher do zealously beate downe Popery he doth reaile he is cholerike hee is vncharitable and so they deuise all meanes possible to disturbe him these and suchlike are the notes to discerne a Church Papist Pa. You call them zealous Preachers they be very scismatikes and seduce the people with false doctrine and therfore such as be wise quiet and stayed men cannot abide them Pro. I see well that you are not of those which to it but for Arguments sake you will not shew what the Catholikes say but what your self saith Had ye not great cause to be offended when I said ye were a Papist Pa. I thinke plaine dealing is best in very deed I take ye to be heretikes I am a Catholike Pro. You take vs to be heretikes but in very deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your selues and far from true Catholikes Pa. Ye do vs great wrong to call vs heretikes for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church which hath euer condemned all heretikes If Catholikes be heretikes then are we also heretikes but this latter belongeth to you and all other which forsake the truth Pro. Nay those which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church and the doctrine of the Catholike faith we hold which hath alwaies condemned heretikes and therfore ye do vs as great wrong in calling vs heretikes as the Pharisies and Sadduces did vnto Saint Paule when they counted him so Act. 24.14 You haue forsaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith and therefore ye are no Catholikes Pa. We are they which hold the auncient Catholike faith yours is new doctrine we beleeue as all our forefathers did If your doctrine be true then all our forefathers were damned for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you beleeue Pro. The maner of you Papistes is to affirme things very strongly but when ye shold proue them then are ye exceeding weake and can bring forth naught but poore stuffe Ye are as able to proue these things which ye affirme as I am to remoue mountaines Pa. We may say so of you more rightly because you affirme much and proue litle I am able for to make good all that which I haue spoken Pro. Are you content to make triall who bring strongest proues if ye be let me heare how ye can disproue our faith and afterward I will show what I haue to disproue yours so it shall be séene which hold the Catholike faith and which be heretickes Pa. I am very well content tell me what I shall begin withall Pro. Begin with those things which ye affirmed euen now proue that our doctrine is new that you beleeue as all the forefathers did that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers and euery wise man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith if ye cannot proue this then confesse that your doctrine is come from the father of lies and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth which is Gods word all other doctrines are of the diuell Pa. If that faith which you beleeue and doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our forefathers but it was not heard of in their daies neither was it knowne vntill such time as Luther did set it abroach Therefore the proudest heretike of ye all shall neuer be able to shew that it is of antiquitie Pro. Here are ruffling words the proudest heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you but indeede if your proud conceipt were no sturdier then your argument yee might easily be dealt withall I confesse your Maior or first proposition of your argument to be true which is this if the doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers But your second which is this that our faith doctrine was not heard of in the dayes of the forefathers vntill Luther did set it abroch is most false for our doctrine is the holy word of God deliuered to the Church by the Apostles Prophets We beléeue as Adam Seth
Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
Church is the pillar of truth whosoeuer doth separate himselfe from the Church doth depart from the truth And by this we do still proue that you are all heretickes and scismatikes and do peruert the scriptures because you take them not as the Church doth expound them The scriptures seeme to be on your side but they are not they seeme to be against vs but they are not Pro. This is very sound stuffe you make three strong conclusions out of three sentences of the scriptures In the first ye reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore none can vnderstand the scriptures but the learned by this your meaning is to shut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine and to allow vnderstanding of the scriptures to none but the learned that is the Clergie of Rome for that we shal haue by and by But ye ouershoote your selfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men doth meane such as haue not bin brought vp in schoole learning and so put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie No he counteth all those learned which are taught of God both of the common sort of people and other all those are vnlearned which are not taught of God although otherwise they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts or whatsoeuer Such as haue learned Christ Iesus and him crucified and so are become new creatures in Christ they are learned Col. 2. For in him are all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge He that hath not learned Christ he is vnlearned If he be not new borne but as S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 3. cōmitteth sin he hath not séene him nor knowne him although otherwise he be neuer so studied a mā in the scriptures Math. 11. For this cause we see that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wisedome because they imbraced the doctrine of Christ when the great Doctors the Scribes and Pharisies were starke blind They sayd none followed Christ but the multitude which knew not the law Iohn 7. which were accursed when as indeede they were blind and accursed themselues so fareth it now with the Pope and his shauelings they say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures when themselues do not The next sentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter also where hee saith No scripture is of priuate interpretation From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vs may interprete but Rome onely No priuate man is to interprete the scriptures because no scripture is of priuate interpretation all those which are not of the Popish Cleargie or which haue not authority in the Church from the Pope or do not expound as the Church are priuate men therfore none of those are to interprete the scriptures Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will haue all to himselfe But ye deale deceiptfully or at the least vnskilfully with the text which ye alleadge for Saint Peter when he saith priuate doth not speake it to make this difference betweene men as though for interpreting the scriptures some shold haue authority some should be priuate but he setteth men against God calling that priuate which is of man For he doth reason thus the scripture was not giuen by the will of man but by the spirite of God therefore the interpretation thereof must bee of God men must not bring that which is their owne If the interpretation be by the spirit then is it not priuate if it be out of mans braine although it should be the Pope al his Cardinals yea ten thousand Popes it is still priuate after the sense in which S. Peter doth call priuate For let any skilful man in the greeke tongue looke vpon the word which is idias epiluseos and he will confesse that it doth signifie that which is ones owne Then the sense is plaine and it is also manifest how peeuishly you peruert the word of God What manner of argument is this a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne therfore none may interprete them but the Church of Rome Your last reason is not worth answering for although it is most true that the Church is the pillar of truth that those are voyd of truth which abide not in the Church yet this is as false that the Pope his company are the Church of Christ as the other is true and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schismatikes for departing from you which are a den of theeues which haue conspired against the truth Pa. Two grosse things and strange I gather out of your words the one that you would haue the people of themselues to iudge of doctrine the other ye will haue no other interpreter of the sense of the Scriptures but the Spirit I pray ye I am an vnlearned man would faine know which is the truth I heare you alleadge the scriptures in one sense and you say you haue the spirit our men alleadge them in another sense and say they haue the spirit the Anabaptists they haue the spirite the Arrians they interprete by the spirit what shal I do here is euery man hath the spirit yet euery one goeth a contrary way It is manifest therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vnto or else the simple man cannot tell which way to turne him What shall he do now but looke how the Church beleeueth and rest in that For he must haue that which may teach him to know which of all these hath the true spirit or else he is neuer the neerer Pro. Ye find two grosse things in my words one of them is that I say the people can iudge of doctrine when it is preached What doth our Sauior Christ meane when he saith Iohn 10. My sheep heare my voyce a stranger they wil not heare they flie frō strangers Cā they know the voice of the true shepheard from the false can they not discerne doctrine The other is that I will haue none other interpreter of the sense of the scriptures but the spirit 1. Cor. 2. S. Paul saith the eare hath not heard nor the eye hath not seene neither came into mans hart the things which God hath prepared for them that loue him but God hath reuealed them vnto vs by his spirite for the spirite searcheth all things yea the deepe things of God And the great doubt which you put forth in the simple man which would faine vnderstand the truth and which of all those foure that ye named haue the spirit I answer that if he himselfe haue not the spirite of God to teach him he shall not be able to iudge but if the spirite do teach him then can he find it for the spirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine which is his doth teach the other to know that doctrine and in them consenteth vnto it being his owne and therefore
to the worlds ende Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow so great and manifest truth Pro. It is indeed a certaine and sure thing that heretikes will lie and therefore you Papists whose Religion is a very hotch potch dunghill of all grosse heresies will not sticke at that But here is a great reason brought to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your side and not on ours The holy Fathers are like as all men may iudge to be on their side which succeede them which do most loue them honour them and commend them but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vs which ye accuse to deface their honor And therefore they be on your side and must néedes take you to be their speciall friends Indeede we confesse that you do giue that honour to the Saints which we deny them and therefore ye seeme to loue them more then we But when the matter cōmeth to the due triall euery man shall easily perceiue that it doth not therefore follow that they be on your side because it is no true loue nor right honor which ye giue vnto them nor such indeed as they can in any wise accept of for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone should be worshipped and haue all his whole honor reserued to himselfe how can they take it well at your hands when ye play the arrant théeues and most villanously robbe God to giue vnto them Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to see theeues spoyle other mens goods and to bring the same to them if not how should the blessed Virgin the holy Apostles other Saints of God count those sacrilegious wretches to be their friends which rob and spoyle God of his honor and thrust Christ from his office to bestow vpon them No those honor them which follow their steps in giuing all honor to God they loued and held the truth which was dearer to them then their liues and therefore are on their side which walke in the truth Moreouer your loue and honour which you giue and bestow vpon them is euen such as the wicked Apostates among the Iewes did bestow vpon the holy Prophets of God Thus Christ speaketh Woe be vnto you Scribes Pharisies Math. 23. ye Hypocrites because you build the Sepulchers of the Prophets garnish the Tombes of the righteous and ye say if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers we would not haue bene partakers with them in the bloud of the Prophets Will you say that these did loue the Prophets which did so much hate Christ did they honour the Prophets and dishonour Christ Euen such are you ye honor the holy Saints of old but if they were aliue on earth ye would murder them In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge concerning the Church of the Iewes ye require that I should shew some such thing in your Church What say ye to this 2. Thes 2. that S. Paule saith there should be a falling away the man of sinne should be set vp Reuel 13. And when Saint Iohn speaking of the same apostasie saith that all the world wondered and followed the beast And againe in the same Chapter he sayth that whosoeuer would not worship the Image of the beast they should be killed Reuel 13. and he caused all both small and great rich and poore bond and free to receiue a make in their right hand or in their forehead And that none might buy or sell but he which hath the marke or the name of the beast or the number of his name Ye wil not deny also but that which Saint Iohn speaketh of the woman persecuted by the Dragon Reuel 12. is meant of the Church for the place doth plainely interprete it selfe when he saith in the last verse of the Chapter That the Dragon was wrath and went and made warre against the remnant of her seede which keepe the commandements of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Behold how he sheweth there that this Church should be nourished in the wildernesse for a time times and halfe a time from the presence of the Dragon Where was then the visible Church Where was now dic ecclesiae tell the Church if ye will vnderstand it so fully Pa. Must those things needs be expounded against vs Can it not be taken but against the Church of Rome Pro. That Prophesie of S. Paule of the apostasie by the man of sinne and the description of the kingdome of Antichrist by S Iohn in the Reuelation cannot with any shew be turned vppon any other saue the Pope and his Cleargie But I will come vnto this thing more particularly afterward Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was so great decay of truth by Antichrist that a man could not alwayes see a visible gouernement of the Church séeing Antichrist was the head and al things were done at his will appointment Pa. You would make the world beleeue what you list but let them beleeue ye that will It is a like matter that God wold forsake the Church so many hundred yeares suffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to perish No no I would we were like them they were wiser then we are It is maruell that they should be so farre wide and no man to reproue them There is no wise man but he will take it to be the more surer way to cleaue to so many godly and wise forefathers and good Saints then to take part with a few scismatikes and new fangled rash heads which will not sticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders be they neuer so ancient Oh this corrupt age whither will it tend at the last Pro. What we go about or would make the world beléeue God himselfe is both witnesse and Iudge to him and to his holy truth we appeale It is not like that God would forsake his Church so many hundred yeares no hee neuer forsooke it one houre no not euen when it seemed to be quite destroyed and wasted by Antichrist He neuer suffered all our forefathers to be seduced and to perish neither did he euer suffer any one of our godly forefathers to perish he forsooke Antichrist and his brood as a den of theeues which forsooke him he forsooke all those which receiued not the loue of the truth that they might be saued and sent them strong delusions to beleeue lyes that so they might be damned as S. Paule setteth it forth 2. Thes 2. This was neither all the forefathers nor yet so many hundred yeres as you seeme to note for the most part of your Antichristian religion hath not as yet seene sixe hundred Sommers And in those times there were euer some which cried out of your corrupt doctrine and wicked maners He is the right wise man which doth not leaue to nor depend vpon the multitude of men
framing which neither wee teach neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer The diuell and the flesh reason thus God hath chosen men they haue no power of themselues they cannot deserue or merite by their good déedes but are iustified by faith alone in the merits of Christ therefore let them care for no well doing but walke after the carnall desires and lusts of the flesh what should they care they can neither further nor hinder themselues But the holy spirit of God concludeth thus God chose vs when wée were his enemies of his owne good will when wée were not able so much as to thinke a good thought therefore wee are bound to yéeld all praise and honour vnto him He hath of his infinite loue giuen vs his deare and onely be gotten sonne for to redéeme vs and to iustifie vs therefore we ought to shew our selues louing and kinde vnto him againe to serue honour and obey him in all true obedience and holy conuersation What should I stand to recite testimonies of Scripture to proue these conclusions and to ouerthrow yours when as euery poore man which hath any delight in the sacred Bible is able for to sée them They bee worse then bruite beasts which haue not learned this out of the word that God hath chosen his people hath by his frée grace redéemed and iustified them to the end they may be holy zealous of good workes although not to merit withall which they cannot yet to glorifie GOD as Christ saith Let your light so shine before mē Matth. 5 that they may sée your good workes glorifie your father which is in heauen Likewise hée saith Herein is my father glorified Iohn 15. that yée grow and bring forth much fruite We teach with S. Iohn 1. Iohn 3. he that worketh righteousnesse is borne of God he that committeth sinne is of the diuell We teach with Christ Iohn 8. that hée that committeth sin is the seruant of sin We teach with Saint Paul Rom. 8. that those which are in Christ walke not after the flesh but after the spirit We teach with S. Iames Iames 2. that that faith which is without good works is dead therefore cānot iustifie saue a man It is not faith but a dead picture and shew of faith which the diuels haue The true faith cannot bee without good workes So that wee teach a necessitie of good workes not to merit or to iustifie but to shew foorth the fruites of our calling Pap. Ye say that ye doe not teach libertie to the flesh nor giue men leaue to liue as they will nor that your doctrine doth not destroy good deedes but shall wee giue more credite to your words or to the successe and fruites which we see to follow of your doctrine He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth What better and more sure triall can a man require then this I trow ye will not refuse to bee tried by this rule Then let vs come vnto it your holy doctrine how commeth it to passe that it doth bring forth so many sowre fruites Was there euer more sinne committed VVhat fowle wickednesse is it which doth not flow in your streetes You may compare with the Sodomites for your gluttonies wantonnesse whoredomes pride couetousnesse and such like VVhat good thing can a man see in your Clergie which should giue good example to others and whose pure conuersation should be a paterne for other to follow How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace who hauing spent their time lewdly and consumed their substance when they cannot tell how to liue step into the ministerie or at the least coueting to liue at ease and shunning to worke being scarce sit for the plow much lesse for the pulpit yet are admitted by your heauenly Gospell to be masters in Israel How many wanton fleshly adulterers are there among them How couetous how worldly how ambitious are your learned men Doe not all men see how they preach and take on vntill such time as they be loden with liuings and are got vp as high as they can and then as though they had wonne the vpshot they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer and vnbend their bowes they neede not any further to trouble themselues But what neede I speake when the matter it selfe doth as it were make open proclamation Your common people seeing they haue no better examples are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtinesse If ye can proue this to be holesome doctrine which doth bring forth and allow such things as these I will be no longer a Catholike Pro. If I should answere ye onely with this that your euill fruits do farre passe ours although it were most easie to be proued yet should I make but a slender answere because that in ouerthrowing you we should also cōdemne our selues For this I must néeds confesse with yee that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good And a good triall I doe confesse of the doctrine to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth When ye charge vs that all abominable sins do flow in our stréetes we do also with great griefe acknowledge it And this farre I allow your sayings but whē ye ascribe these things to our doctrine as the fruites which it doth bring forth there I doe disallow ye as a blasphemer of God and his most pure trueth For it is not because our doctrine doth allow much lesse bréede such euils that they bee among vs but because our doctrine which is the holy word of God is of the most men despised and not knowne The Lord by sundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes and accuseth them to bée worse then the heathen was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them to bée blamed No they refused to walke in his ordinances and so doe the people at this day The Lord bée blessed there are a number although farre the lesse number which lie as scattered cornes in a great heape of chasse which haue imbraced the holy doctrine of the Lord and doe expresse it in their liues do euery day mourne for the abominations of Hierusalem and earnestly doe desire that the Lorde would purge it If either our doctrine did allowe such abuses or those which doe sincerely imbrace it walke in them then your wordes which yée vtter might haue some weight in them but séeing it is otherwise ye remaine still with the rest of your companions a wicked blasphemer of the holie word of God As for that which ye vtter against our Clergie it maketh nothing at all against vs vnlesse ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow such But ye may sée the contrarie for our Gospell doth allow none but learned Teachers and godly Pastours which expresse the worde in their conuersation those which Saint Paul alloweth
vnto Timothy and Titus 1. Tim. 3. Titus 1. those doth our religion allow and none else If any haue preached diligently and when they are once come to promotion haue giuen ouer it is plaine they sought themselues and not the Lord Iesus will ye lay the fault of such vngodly men vpon the doctrine Cease therefore not to bee a true Catholike which ye neuer were but an obstinate blinde heretike without true vnderstanding Pa. Better is a bad scuse then none at all Forsooth the doctrine must not bee blamed but the men but I pray ye for your Clergie why are those things maintained Are they vnknowne If not why are they borne Answere this and then ye say somewhat to the purpose Pro. When I haue answered it you shall gaine little For as I may most easily prooue that Gods word which is our religion doth allow no such ministerie so may I as easily shew that all this corruption in the ministerie came from you wée may rue the time that euer your corrupt lawes and orders in matters for the Ministerie tooke place in the worlde because the very Reliques of them are deadly wheresoeuer they remayne and doe poyson the Church of GOD the most filthie and cursed abominations in the liues of the Ministers and other abuses began among you Ye haue no cause to boast of the goodnesse of your Priests nor of their learning looke vpon those of them which at this day doe remaine in our Church not as standers but as poore rotten stakes in an hedge the people may here and there although twentie yeares and od haue greatlie wasted them sée how graue Diuines godly Prelates were among you As for the maintenance of such things among vs I say still we defie all such abuses we allow none other ministerie but such as S. Paul describeth If any man doe defend an vnlearned ministerie which is not able to guide the flocke of Christ or to build vp the temple of God or if any doe beare with vice in the ministers they doe follow Antichrist and not S. Paul they are then become enemies of Christ and fighters together with you against the Gospell destroyers and rooters vp of the Lords vineyard which is to be dressed and kept by expert and skilfull labourers You must learne therefore not to slander the most glorious Gospell nor to lay the blame of such things vpon it but for to finde the fault where it is Pa. I cannot denie but that in words ye doe seeme for to allow such as Saint Paul willeth they should be but when it commeth to the performance ye doe vtterly faile for hauing many learned men ye haue none godly all of them giuen ouer to some fowle vice or other as to be ambitious couetous worldlings idle bellies gluttons proud prelates vaine boasters or such like Pro. I perceiue your subtill craft well enough ye describe our learned men by these fowle vices when ye meane your popish clergie For from the top of yours euen to the bottome euen from the triple crowne vnto the bare footed frier al these vices and a great number more doe abound The Lord be blessed that in our Church and other Churches of his Gospell hath raised vp a great number whom he hath prepared and sanctified by his spirit which doe giue testimonie of their puritie both before GOD and men that they seeke not themselues nor the world but onely to build vp the Church of Christ As for other which are defiled with any of those crimes which you doe name I say still they bee not the workmen by whom God will build his house they bee rather fit to set vp the kingdome of Antichrist and although they should take vpon them with neuer so great profession to defend the truth yet because they professe godlinesse in word Titus 1. and haue denied the power thereof God doth not acknowledge them to be on his side neither will any godly man account them true professors Pa. VVill ye allow none to be of your side but such as bee free from those forenamed vices or such like Alas where is your Church become where shall a man finde a companie of those rare birds which you speake of take the people and their teachers together VVho are they among ye which are not accused in some such crime or other Pro. I say still that because God hath allowed none to bée his redéemed and chosen but those whom he doth also sanctifie we also doe allow none neither of the teachers nor of the people to bee the true friends of the Gospell but such as doe yéeld and shew their obedience thereunto and expresse the doctrine thereof in their conuersation How small soeuer the number of such séeme vnto your bleared eyes for to bée they are the true Church of GOD and moe in number farre then you could wish I know if all should be guiltie which are accused then your saying were true but when it is most euident that the more godly a man is the more he is subiect to false accusations and slanders euen as our Sauiour himselfe was and his Apostles and other most godly which succéeded them your reason is very weake when ye say all are accused for doth it by and by follow that all are guiltie I confesse that our Church if ye vnderstand the whole assemblie is full of all wicked vices but shall Gods word be blamed for that There are a number among vs which are of your broode whose euill life is séene well enough there are a very great nūber of méere worldlings which doe not greatly estéeme any religion although they seeme now because of lawes to allow and fauour our side yet in their hearts they rather cleaue vnto you which is euident by this that they can better away with the friendship and familiaritie of a ranke Papist then of a zealous godly protestant they will highly commend the one and deepely condemne the other Thus yee shall haue them speake such a man indéede I cannot praise him for his religion I let him alone for that he shall answere for himselfe I would he were of a better opinion but for his behauiour there is not a better man As for such and such I cannot tell what to make of them they are so holy and so precise that they haue forgotten all good fellowship Thus you and your fauourers among vs agréeing in a carnall and euill conuersation and filling all the land full of naughtinesse doe charge the Gospell and holy religion of God which doth most seuerely condemne and curse all such abuses I will not stand in particular reciting of those vices which you Papists do ioyne in and allow in our carnall protestāts it would be ouer long a man might make a long booke of that matter alone Pa. I confesse there be many which care not what religiō be so they may liue in wealth ease but what are those vices which we do ioyne with thē Ye
make a very liberall accusation of great and foule matter although ye say it would be too long to recite the particulars to intreate vpon them yet ye may name them Pro. In few words I may name some if that will pleasure ye our carnall protestants are couetous greedie worldlings craftie in their dealings to séeke all aduantages against those with whom they deale full of vsurie and briberie and these things are also in you our carnall Gospellers are very fowle mouthed in slaunderings railings ribaldries and horrible othes these things ye make no cōscience of Our carnall protestants are giuen ouer to spend their time in gluttonies drinkings vaine pleasures and vnlawfull exercises these are your veniall sinnes and whosoeuer will not runne with ye to powre out themselues in the same excesse of riot they are precise fooles more nice then wise they do it but of vaine glorie and singularitie Pa. Ye may bee ashamed to charge vs with such things seeing our Church hath alwaies vsed so sharp discipline vpon such offenders you may iustly be charged because ye let loose the raines vnto all vices yee giue the flesh the swinge yee haue no discipline among ye to make men stand in awe Pro. We may be ashamed to speake truth of you but you must not once blush at the matter when ye blaspheme the glorious Gospell of Christ and why onely because ye are past shame but let your words goe and come to your matter You may not in no case bée blamed for such vices which haue alwayes holden men in awe with sharpe discipline and corrected the offenders It is well knowne to al wise mē what your discipline was true it is that ye did hold men wonderfully in awe but of whom not of God but of the Romish prelate No man durst wagge his finger against him no man might once finde fault with any of his dirtie inuentions vnder paine of his extreme and heauie curse But each man might liue as he lust in all vices against God onelie he must confesse his sinnes to the priest and receiue a certaine penance to fast certaine daies or to goe on pilgrimage to some Saint or to haue the Popes pardon for a péece of money not onely for his sinnes past but also for those which he should afterward commit Others when they had committed some horrible sinnes must whip themselues and so at it againe Thus your holy pope did open the gate to all vncleannes and therefore in the Scriptures is called the man of sinne Pa. This seemeth very strange to me how penance and correction should open the gate vnto all sin It seemeth by your words that men would loue sinne the better because it should bee punished I would wish ye to be better aduised in your words for I could take ye in many such absurdities but I am almost ashamed to recite them they bee so childish trifles to come from any one of your coate which professe learning But let me see how you shut vp the gate against sinne which inioyne no penance or correction It is a world to see the vanity of mens minds which perswade themselues that they can make men beleeue the crow is white alas your poore Sophistrie is not able to doe this Yet I perceiue ye haue some grace in ye for I trow ye blush Pro. It would make any man blush I trow to be taken in such a trip and so to ouer-shoote himselfe as I haue done by affirming that your discipline did open the gate vnto al sinne For can such sharpe penance as to fast three daies together with bread and water or to go bare footed to our Ladie of Walsingame or for a man to whip himselfe vntill the blood follow or to giue ten shillings for a pardon make men loue sinne the better This geare I trow would scarre them and make them to haue little lust to sinne Oh no good sir this is nothing so sharpe as hell fire men finde such a swéete taste in sinne that if they may escape so they will not care The adulterer hath such pleasure in his vncleane lust that he will to it againe if he may be perswaded it be but a whipping matter The drunkard will haue one pot of ale the more if he may heale the matter againe by drinking a cup of water The enuious and hatefull man will haue one fling at his enemie if a payre of old angels will dispatch the matter and procure his pardon at the hands of the holy father and so in each sinne O yée holy hell-hounds here is your sharpe discipline by which ye giue liberty vnto men to turne back to vncleannes euen as a dogge to his vomite But while wee reproue your discipline wée haue none our selues and so we doe but play the Sophisters which would take vpon them to proue that the crow is white Sir before I come to our discipline I say our doctrine is this that vnder paine of Gods curse and eternall damnation men must returne from their wicked waies and not returne vnto them againe they must giue vp themselues wholly to serue God in all good workes As for the discipline of our Church thus sharp it is that the obstinate sinner is to be cut off frō the congregation to be deliuered vp vnto satan not to he receiued in again vntil such time as he hath declared very apparant tokens of déepe sorow harty repentance Let al men iudge whether this be not to shut vp the gate against sinne Pa. Now you may very well be likened vnto a man that will make great brags of his riches when he is nothing worth A marueilous sharpe discipline ye speake of but I pray ye where shal a mā find it euē in your Spirituall courts for there a mā if the officer cannot get his fee shall be cursed to the diuell throwne out of the church yea so seuerely that he shall not be receiued in againe before he come weeping vntill the teares drop out of his purse O yee dissolute teachers of libertie and maintainers of iniquitie cease your bragging of those things which are not among ye Pro. Your blasphemous tongue will neuer cease vnlesse it be cut out of your head doo we teach libertie doe wee maintaine iniquitie Admit your saying bee true yet I pray you how slenderly doe you reason when yée say that a mā is excommunicated for money and receiued in againe for money although they doe not repent and therefore your Gospell giueth libertie to sinne Oh good sir Christ and his Gospell allow no such thing if men doe offend doe not you therefore blame the trueth for there is no equitie nor good dealing in that What though we haue not the discipline of the Gospell in our Church here in this land so whole and sound as it should bee yet because wee allow it wee pray for it wee thirst after it wee confesse the want thereof we ought not to be charged as those which
séeme to be yet God will refuse to acknowledge ye for his seruants because ye refuse his ordinances and deuise toyes of your owne which ye thrust vpon him and as it were force him to accept them If ye did meane well ye would doe better your deuotion is diuellish obstinacie your méekenes is haughtinesse in despising God You haue forgottē what the Lord saith In vaine doe they worship me Esay 29. Matth. 15. teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Pa. VVhere learne you to giue such rayling sentence against the deuotion of holy men and to iudge Ye boast of the Gospell ye haue nothing els in your mouth and yet the Gospell willeth ye not for to iudge This doth declare what spirit ye are led with Pro. If your Romish rowte were holy deuoute men then no doubt wee should be found to giue rayling sentence and if the holy scriptures did not warrant vs so to speake of those which are open enemies to GOD then wée might iustly be blamed or if wee should enter so far as to iudge of the secrets of mens harts not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement then were wee to be condemned but séeing the word doth teach that which we vtter wee neither giue rayling sentence neither doe wee iudge otherwise then to pronounce out of Gods trueth what is holy and what is wicked and abominable Pa. Proue those things which you haue said out of the word as that good intents are not pleasing to God that when men are deuout and take paines to serue God it is diuelish and other such like and I wil be your bondman while I liue Pro. Good intents doe please God God doth require that men should be deuoute and take paines to serue him and vnlesse these things bee in them they are not his seruants But yours are no good intents but phantasies of your owne braine for they procéede not of faith because they bee not ordered by Gods word Rom. 14. but against the word and whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Your worship being not framed after the will of God but procéeding from your owne liking is no more but blinde deuotion when ye haue taken all the paines ye can and haue wearied your selues this shall bee your reward Esay 1. Who required these things at your hands Who did set ye a worke and appoynt ye this seruice As concerning such kinde of worship as yours the Apostle doth call it will-worship for when he hath spoken of commandements and doctrines of men he addeth thus Colos 2. Which things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntarie worship and humblenesse of minde and not sparing the bodie which things are of no estimation séeing they pertaine to the filling of the flesh This place of Saint Paul well obserued doth fully and cléerely without any exposition quite ouerthrow all your Popish religion For he sheweth that before GOD all such trash is of no estimation Againe his description doth so fitly paynt out Poperie and that which you bragge of as nothing can bee more apt Marke well euery branch and member of his words and ye will confesse the same He demaundeth of the Colossians how it commeth to passe that if they be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world that they bee burdened with traditions Colos 1. as touch not taste not c. Which things perish in their vse and therefore this conclusion is to bée drawne out that the eternall and spirituall kingdome of GOD doth not consist in such things For how should the kingdome of God consist in those things which perish Pa. Ye would make somewhat of nothing that place of S. Paul is not against vs. If yee haue none other ye cannot ouerthrow our religion Pro. Ye doe interrupt me in the middest of my matter onely to cauill because ye are loth to haue this place of scripture touched seeing it doth so fully open and display your wardes Because ye say it maketh not against ye and would faine passe from it I will leade ye to it by the eares Doth not your religion stand in outward things which perish in their vse Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men Let all the world iudge of that And Saint Paul doth make that a sufficient reason to ouerthrow any thing whatsoeuer in the seruice of God If it bee of man the holy Ghost would haue vs make no further inquisition but to take it for dung and draugh how goodly soeuer it séeme and glister as gold Esay 29. Matth. 15. Doth not the Lord also say In vaine doe they worship me teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Well to goe forward these deuises of yours are marueilously well liked and the people of the world are made very deuoute towards God by them indéede the people of the world doe like well such religion and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuotion to estéeme such matters to haue great wisedome in them Therefore the Apostle doth say that those inuentions of men haue a shew of wisedome and the people vse to say I warrant ye our fathers which deuised these things were wise men But marke well the causes which the Lord doth set downe why these things séeme to haue such wisedome and why they be so well liked of The first cause is that it is a voluntary religion a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men is very well pleasing to the deuisers and doth also fit other men whose wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs For as that which procéedeth from the will of God is contrary to the wisedome of flesh and therefore misliked and condemned of folly so that which commeth out of mans will is agréeable to man and therefore approued and commended as the onely wisedome Thus may we sée when the Apostle saith such things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntary religion how it commeth to passe that the worship which is set by the policie and inuention of men is better accepted of then that which procéedeth from the will of God Pa. Ye haue enough of that place vnlesse ye would expound it more truly there are manie scriptures which make for your purpose if ye may haue this scope to take them as ye lust Leaue off your vaine heape of words with which ye goe about to bleare mens eyes and to draw and wrest the Scriptures to your owne sense It were much better for ye to meddle lesse Pro. All men may easily see that this place of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone no marueile therefore though ye haue enough of it for lesse would better content ye There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpose without any wresting at all Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with néedeth no wresting to make it speake against you when as euery blind man which cannot sée may yet by groping féele the
waight of it against ye But let your foolish words passe which deserue no answere and come again to the matter The next cause why such draugh as yours being but the foolish and doltish dreames of men hath such a shew of wisedome and that is the humblenes of minde which appeareth in such holy hypocrites as worship God after their own fantasie They doe so abase themselues and are as méeke and lowly as can be What can a man deuise to be more hūble then a deuout Papist he will doe any thing he is content to bowe downe and to licke vp the dust at the féete of a stock or a stone he doth so abase himselfe that he is content to worship rotten bones yea whatsoeuer the holy father of Rome will lay vpon him he is readie to beare his minde is so humble But this is not humilitie O ye blind asses but pride and haughtinesse of spirit euen against God against whom ye presume and take vpon ye to bee wiser then he because ye refuse the worship which he hath prescribed and think ye can frame a better of your owne This is the humilitie of you Papists in those good intents and deuotion which ye bragge so much of ye are like sturdie Rogues whom a man would take by their patched cloakes to be gentle and lowly when as indéede they be excéeding proude and rebellious against all good lawes The third last reason which S. Paul setteth downe why there is such a shew of wisedome in corrupt religiō is in this clause when he saith Not sparing the bodie for look how men which are proude men are moued with a shew of humilitie so also although they walke after the flesh and the flesh raigneth in them yet they like of mortification after a sort a shew whereof doth appeare in the outward punishing of the flesh which because they are able to attaine vnto they take it to goe for good payment and when they haue pined themselues with hunger for a while whipped themselues or gone barefooted and barelegged they suppose they haue mortified the flesh Alas poore wretches how humble they bée not to spare their bodies to take such paines to serue GOD and yet neuer the better For when their skinne is torne their heart is whole within still and as full of all vncleannesse as it was before These are the things which ye boast of and the Apostle saith They be of no price Colos 1. because they pertaine but to the filling of the flesh The Diuell hath bewitched men after this sort to leade them from the sight of the true mortification of the flesh through the spirit vnto outward things of no value Thus we may vnderstand that all your goodly shew which yee make is nothing worth all your religion is but superstition they do but lose their labour which trauell in it and are so farre off from pleasing God that he doth accurse and abhorre their doings Pa. A man may see what trim shifts you heretikes can make but for my part I am not moued one iot thereby to like of your religion For it cannot be good when there are so many sects among yee which it doth hatch and bring forth For your Gospell doth come into no place but by and by vp starts one and he doth maintaine this heresie another he doth maintaine that heresie and there is such snatching as if a man should shake out a bagge full of errors and euery one catcheth that which doth like him best for such effect doth follow of your preaching in all places If it were of GOD would this come to passe Can errors arise of true doctrine No this were enough to warne all wise men to take heed of ye and to flie farre from ye although there were no more In our religion we are all of one minde and agree together and therefore ours is the trueth All that will be saued must come and agree with vs. Pro. Nothing can moue you to bee of our religion and why Because it cannot be good Nay because it cannot haue your allowance to be good for the holy word of God is so perfectly good which is our whole religion that all the poyson which such venemous beasts as you are able for to vomite vp is not of force to infect it But I doe ye wrong for you shew a great reason why it cannot be good Well I will answere it The reason which ye vse here against vs is that bolt which ye haue taught euery foole to shoote but a very course armour will defend a man from it it giueth but a bumpe and neuer doth pearce but rebound backe againe Neuerthelesse because among you it is estéemed as a sharpe arrow and principall weapon I will take somewhat the more paines not onely to view it my selfe but also to let others sée the power thereof Trueth it is that whatsoeuer is of God or whatsoeuer is good cannot bring foorth that which is euill no more then darknesse can bring foorth light or heate can cause colde for how can any thing bréede that which is of a quite contrary nature to it selfe But say you Wheresoeuer your Gospell commeth there follow sundrie sects and heresies one maintaineth this and another that with sundry diuisions Therfore your Gospell is not of God it is not the trueth Before ye make this conclusion strong and sure ye must proue that as all sorts of errors do spring where the Gospell is preached which is so indéede that in like maner the Gospell is the cause of them and doth bréede them which ye shall neuer be able to doe For as Christ and his Gospell bring peace and yet he saith he came not to send peace Matth. 10. but a sword and to set the father against the sonne and the mother against the daughter and there shall be fiue in one house two against thrée and thrée against two euen so the Gospell is the trueth and setteth forth the doctrine of vnitie and yet wheresoeuer it commeth all kinde of errors spring vp Now euery wise man will confesse that Christ is the author of peace and the strife that ariseth betwéene men is not to be imputed to his doctrine but to the diuell and his seruants which warre and fight against vs because they hate it and séeke to banish it The same diuell is the cause of heresies for to discredite the word of God wheresoeuer it is taught he setteth vp his schoole also and will haue his schollers goe vnder the name of the Gospell For this is one of the readiest waies that can be to bring the word of God into contempt and to make men afraide of it Sée say they how many heresies these men fall into which meddle with the Scriptures were it not much better that there were no such preaching Pa. Doe ye then allow of strife and errors that ye will needes haue them to be companions of your Gospell Pro. If ye can gather that we allow
of the diuell and his ministers ye may also affirme that we allow of these for we ascribe all these to them They bée no companions of our Gospell vnlesse yée take it in this sense that they alway accompanie the same as vtter enemies to ouerthrow and destroy it The holie Scriptures doe testifie 2. Pet. 2. that there shall bée false Prophets false Teachers and Antichrists in the Church to seduce the people 1. Iohn 2. And the experience of all times doth shew the same Phil. 3. 2. Cor. 10. For were not the false Apostles in all places set against Saint Paul and the other Apostles Doe not the bookes and writings of ancient fathers shortly after the Apostles shewe what fowle monsters rose vp in the Church and what horrible errors did vexe the peace therof Were not the right Catholike fathers within short time after the Apostles of Christ merueilously troubled with heretikes and had as it were their hands full in confuting them Doe not their bookes remaine vnto this day in which they doe confute them I wonder greatly how you Papists should bee so shamelesse beasts as not to denie that the Gospell in those former dayes had so manie and so fowle errours springing vp with it and yet not to bée blamed and now so wickedly to blaspheme it when yée sée the same thing come to passe yée might rather beléeue that it is the trueth because ye sée the same successe now which it had of old and how the diuell doth sweate to quench and ouerthrow it Tell me this O ye hounds of hell did the Gospell hatch or bréed the abominable errors of Ebion Cerinthus Saturninus Carpocrates Basilides and such like Did the Gospell bring foorth the diuelish opinions of Arrius Manicheus of others which sprang vp with it If ye shame to say it did why then should ye not now be as much ashamed to charge it with the errors of the Anabaptists Libertines and the Family of Loue and other which are the warriors of the diuell as well as you to fight against the truth As for this that ye say You did all agrée and were of one minde It is very true in this to resist God and his Gospell but otherwise it is false for ye haue a multitude of sects and sundrie orders amongst ye which could not one away with the other Your whole church of Rome is but a schisme and an Apostasie from the Gospell and Church of God and yet among your selues deuided into a great number of sects and schismes For as among the Corinths I hold of Paul saith one I hold of Apollo 1. Cor. 1. saith another the third of Cephas So among you I am of Benedictus order I am of Francis I am of Augustine and a rablement besides both of Monks and Friers and other such vermine These agréed all in this that they acknowledged the Pope and had their confirmation from him as from the fountaine and maine head which sent foorth riuers and streames euery way for he was the head not of vnitie but of all schismes The head indéed of vnitie as they held all of him but of diuision that euery one put holinesse in his order and sought saluation thereby Ephes 4. There is but one God one faith one baptisme one Lord Iesus Christ and therefore but one way to life eternall how many soeuer you haue inuented which indéede are but crooked paths that leade to hell I let passe your dissention in those poynts which among you should bée of the most waightie things Pa. I could shew many horrible things against ye but I see well it is to no purpose a man were euen as good hold his tongue he shall haue answere at your hands with so many flim flammes and toyes I will leaue ye as I found ye seeing I can doe you no good it is but a folly for a man to powre water vpon a stone to make it soft Pro. I doubt not but that you and your fellowes haue so wel profited in the schoole of the father of lyes in which ye haue béen trained vp that yee are able to vtter many horrible things against vs euē as true as those which ye haue vttered alreadie Therefore in very déede yee were better a great deale to holde your tongue then so shamefully to abuse it in blaspheming the glorious Gospell of GOD. The answers which I doe giue are such flim flammes as the word of God doth expresse I thanke God hee hath so opened mine eyes to see his trueth that euen the most craftie iugling of Papists cannot bring mee into any mammering a man ought to stand fast and to be rooted in the doctrine of the Lord that is no hardnes as you estéeme it neither is yours the water of life which yee would powre vpon me but filthie stinking mud which ye haue drawne out of the puddle of Poperie Ye offer mee drinke but not wholesome wine but dregs which ye bring in the golden cup of the whore of Babylon Your cup doth entice many a simple soule to drinke for they doe not suspect that such deadly poyson should be offered in so goodly a cup. I beséech God to giue men the wisedome to looke what is in it before they drinke Pa. What meane ye by this goodly Allegory what is that golden cuppe which ye speake of in which ye say we offer ye poyson and deceiue the simple soules with the gaines of the cup Can ye tell your owne meaning Doe ye not speake that which ye doe not vnderstand your selfe in Pro. Saint Iohn in the Reuelation doth vse this allegory which you so like a dog scoffe at Reue. 17. He painteth out the whore of Babylon with a golden cup in her hand full of abominations with this she hath made drunken those that dwell vpon the earth For as I said before who would suspect that so goodly a cup should be full of poyson But what is this goldē cup say you in which wee offer poyson This is your golden cup the name of the Catholike Church which ye brag of and the name of the forefathers this is a golden cup how can a simple man once suspect any euill to be in this cup Doubtlesse it is onely your cup which deceiueth so many allureth them to drinke and to sucke out euen the dregs of your abominations For ye crie Catholikes Catholikes the Catholike Church the forefathers and in this ye bring in al your trumperie and purchase credit vnto it because the Catholike Church is very honourable and true which name you pretend the ancient fathers of the Catholike Church are very reuerend whom you falsly challenge to be of your side Therefore I say still it is wisedome to looke what is in your cup and not to be hastie to drinke Pa. I tolde ye euen now that although I might say much yet because I see it is to little purpose that I will giue ye ouer Pro. I must
not to be an horse but a dog that the simple man cannot answere yet neuerthelesse because he is sure it is a horse and his owne not a dog the other may make many reasons which he vnderstādeth not how to auoide notwithstanding they cannot once bring him in doubt or to goe from that which he knoweth Euen so al the subtil cauillations of the diuel and his ministers when they come against the faith and knowledge of a godlie simple man which is grounded in the word of God cannot once moue him the déepe fetches and subtilties may make him muse but yet because he doth certainly know the trueth he doth not giue ouer that he hath felt the power of the word of God in himselfe and therfore is out of doubt it hath done that in him which cannot be wrought but by GOD. Vnstable soules may be beguiled for they haue not felt the power of godlines Yée would haue mée proue that God commaundeth the vnlearned men to studie and exercise themselues in the Scriptures I am ashamed to heare ye doubt of that matter Pa. If ye be ashamed to haue that doubted of then I trow ye will be ashamed not to proue it Pro. I would you would be also ashamed of your wilfull blindnesse and sée when things are manifestly proued Did not God vtter his word by Moses vnto the Israelites both men and women Did he not giue it them in their owne tongue Did he not charge them by Moses euen the lay people Deut. 6. and 11. that they should put his words vpon their heart and vpon their soule and binde them for a signe vpon their hands and teach them their children to talke of thē as they sat in the house as they walked by the way when they did lie downe and when they did rise vp Hosh 4. Are not the people blamed both among the Iewes and also in the time of the Gospell for their ignorance and dulnes Are they not exhorted to grow in knowledge and vnderstanding euery where Heb. 5. Did not Christ and all his Apostles trauell night and day to bring the people to vnderstanding 2. Pet. 3. Doe not the Apostles pray that they might be filled and abound in all knowledge Colos 1. Did they not giue great charge vnto other to teach and féede the flocke diligently Philip. 1. Acts 20. 2. Tim. 4. Did they not open all the counsels of God vnto the people Will your holy mother the whore of Babylon bee wiser then all these Did all these trauell in vaine Did Paul foolishly when he commaunded that men should not speake in the Church in a strange language 1. Cor. 14. vnlesse it were interpreted that so the rest might bee edified For shame giue ouer and confesse that your great whore hath done as fowle villanie to the Church of God as could bee in taking from thē the word of life and putting out the light to the ende that she might play the whore and commit all her abominations in the darke where none should espie them The light doth now shine so cléere that she shall neuer bee able to hide her selfe any more nor to couer her shame vnlesse it bee among those Night-birdes such as you are which cannot abide the light Pa. VVould yee make men beleeue that it is commaunded as a thing so necessarie and profitable when we see what followeth since the scriptures haue been opened vnto the people VVhat a multitude of sects and diuisions and quarrels haue risen VVhence commeth all this but that holy things are giuen to dogs Matth. 7. and precious pearles are cast before swine The vnholy and vnpure and sinfull men doe as it were with filthie vnwashed hands handle the heauenly mysteries and each man doeth gather for his turne that which liketh himselfe and then they are puffed vp and prattle they know not what I wisse I wisse they might bee better occupied then to meddle with the word of God which should not be touched but with great reuerence now euery one will bee pratling of it euen vpon their ale-bench Wherefore did Christ speake in parables Luke 8. Matth. 23. and tolde the Apostles that to them it did belong to know the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that they might see and not see Doubtlesse as I sayd before there is great cause why the scriptures should not be knowne of the people When they did not know them they agreed and went all one way now hee is of this sect hee is of that sect he sayth this is trueth another saith that a man cannot tell which way to turne him Your learned men also themselues are at warre one against another one confuting another in their sermons in their writings alas must it not then much more follow among the vnlearned people If the learned cannot vnderstād the Scriptures how shall they which haue no learning O how well were our forefathers which knew none of all this I would the reading of the Scriptures did make men no worse thē they were they had good soules to Godward now men are starke nought Pro. The great subtiltie of the diuell to draw men away from reading the Scriptures appeareth in ye ye would proue it not only a thing vnnecessarie to haue them knowne but also very euill This yée proue by the effects which follow as diuisions and quarrels and sects by the same reason ye may proue that it had béen good neuer to haue heard of Christ about whom there haue béen so many quarrels in the world Esay 28. 2. Pet. 1. Many doe stumble at him he is the rocke of offence vnto many but the fault is in men and not in him Euen so the wicked which abuse the Gospell although they be neuer so many yet must not cause the small number of Gods elect to be depriued of their right and to be spoyled of their comfort So soone as the Gospell appeareth the diuell laboureth by his instruments to bring an infamie vpon it and to make men beléeue it is naught for it is he which raiseth vp sects and errors Gods word is not the cause He would by that meanes bring men into a maze that they should not know which way to turne them But you say the cause is that holy things are giuē to dogs and precious pearles are cast before swine Ye reason euen like your forefathers the proude Pharisies which took themselues to be so holy that they were not to bee taught and so wise skilfull that they regarded not others The multitude were accursed Iohn 9. the blind mā he was altogether borne in sinne you wretches count them dogs and swine and your selues holie whereas your selues haue plaied the notable vilaines and haue dealt vnreuerētly with the word of God Matth. 9. The Pharisies blamed Christ that he did eate with Publicanes sinners he answered that he came not to call the righteous Luke
5. but sinners to repentance You say sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures we answere the more sinful the greater néed they haue to know the scriptures because they must reforme them and cure them other meanes for the sinners there are none Psal 119. Wherewithall saith the Prophet shall a young man clense his waies euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word Ye reason euen as handsomly as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred or if a man should be out of his way in the darke let him haue no light because he is out of his way Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men yée neither enter your selues neither do ye suffer those which would Let thousand thousands and millians of thousands deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it by peruerting it be puffed vp with their knowledge make but a pratling thereof yet this must not let but that if God had but ten chosen in the world his counsels must be opened vnto them Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it therefore you say it is to bee remoued théeues and quarrellers doe fight rob and kill with their weapons therefore the true men must cast them away Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures night and day but yet reuerently Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit Ephes 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell Doth not Christ our captaine giue vs example Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that in seeing they might not see I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh Were they not the great clarkes the Scribes and Pharisies which did see not perceiue heare and not vnderstand Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate both the learned and vnlearned As on the other side the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father saith Christ Lord of heauen and earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise prudent and hast opened them vnto babes Doe ye not sée in the Gospell how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell instruct the multitude Is it not testified that publicanes and sinners did imbrace the same whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes harlots should go before them into the kingdom of God Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures Doubtles the heathen men went all one way but it was no good way for it was to destruction euen so as many as did not as S. Paul saith receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued 2. Thess ◠God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies so they were damned These were not all our forefathers for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures whē as the learned doe not but are set one against an other one doth confute another ye should conclude of this that because learned men doe raise vp errors aswell as the vnlearned therefore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also and so ye should make sure worke Let God speake no more vnlesse he can do better let the Pope onely vtter his minde and heare him for he will tell a plaine tale Pa. This is euen like all your schismatikes and heretikes for all of ye doe allow errors quarrels and contentions Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them ye doe euen glorie in them as though there could be no trueth without them Oh say you it is a certaine and infallible proofe that ours is the true Gospell that so great troubles and sundrie sects do follow it Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine so that others need not to speake thereof Many other such like speeches ye vtter Pro. I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth then ye are like your father not the father of trueth but of lyes for let a man conuict ye a thousand times in your sayings yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder Where can ye euer shew that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors quarrels contentions Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow can ye gather thereof that we allow the same no we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell and his wicked instruments We count it a lamentable thing to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great that so soone as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare they bend all their might against it seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof and vtterly to banish it From hence doe spring all vprores and tumults in the Church We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gospell of Christ that the wicked world cannot abide it if it were of the world the world would loue his owne but because it is not of the world therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make doth rise vp against it for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur The strong man armed which kéepeth his house Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoyled When there shall be no diuell no wicked ones no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God whē Christ shall haue none enemies then the Gospell may come foorth in peace without troubles tumults sects errors and such like But so long as all those do remaine wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie because these things follow it nay why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious that it doth breake through all these things and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies When the Prophet foretolde that the stone which the builders refused Psal 110. was become the head of the corner he addeth Psal 118. this is the Lords doing and it is marueilous in our eyes So this is the Lords doing and it is most marueilous in our eyes that so many cruell persecutions doe follow the Gospell and yet cannot banish it so many heapes or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it to couer it to corrupt