divers of us at that meeting which is not particularly related which definition of our justification they could not except against for we never were nor are ashamed to declare what we hold concerning justification which is through faith in the blood of Christ the seed of the Covenant and though at that time they made much jangling yet to no purpose as to convince us of any errour or any sober men there present of any errour in us as concerning that thing And whereas it is related as if I should say We are men brought up at plow-tayle and understand not Scholar like terms my words were not thus spoken but upon the occasion of their speaking words which is not in Scripture-language as inherent righteousnesse for such like Whereupon I desired them to keep to the form of sound words and of Scripture-language that people might understand what they spoke For said I ye are Scholers as ye professe and some of us were brought up at Plow or Cart and may be doth not understand Scholar-like termes though I did not meane all of us and what some of us do understand as to that I shall not now speak yet this I say the least of us doth understand betwixt truth and error and between that which is righteous and that which is unrighteous and in that is more peace then in the knowledge of Arts or Tongues and our knowledge in that is dung and losse in comparison of the other And as to Justification upon which subject we contended a long time though they foolishly charged us with it we do deny utterly the works of man and the works of mans righteousnesse as in relation to our justification and that it is only and wholly by grace and gift of God and the righteousnesse of Christ who is revealed in all that believe in him by which justification comes yet say we that faith without works is dead and will not justifie a man but by that faith which brings forth works even the works of God in us and through us by that faith are we justified and according to the Apostles words so we believe not by works of righteousnesse which we have done nor by a dead faith without works but by a living faith which worketh in us are we justified Let vain men deduct what they may this is truth in the sight of the Lord and all men These indeed are the particulars upon which the Controversie depended and having been some hours together they were willing to depart and R. G. would give little hearing to me when I charged him with something uttered by him at divers times in my hearing which I should have proved to be unsound doctrine and error had he had that patience to have stayed and whereas P. T. doth speak of having a Pope in our bellies with such like scornful words which a discreet man would not have defiled his mouth withal but that he must shew himself to be of the generation of Priests who persecuted the innocent in every age and for his telling of our error and recovering of our feet out of the snare and delivering us from the delusion its true his words stands but upon a supposition and that supposition stands upon the report of others as he seems to intimate which is but a thing far off true credit for what error and snares and delusion did P. T. convince us of in five hours discourse not any at all but the rather was forced to confess to the most part of what we delivered then what need was there to utter these his words in writing as if he had heard some great matter of delusion or error but all these his words I do bear and if he hath harboured such thoughts of us as it appears too much by his words let him cleanse his heart by repentance lest his intended evil bruise his own head And whereas he hath commented upon a book called a Standerd lifted up which book I own and that which is therein written and himself is forced to own what himself objects against and comments upon if saith he E. B. mean so and so then his words are truth but if so and so then it is Pope like or such like Alas poor man must I be judged upon thy own meaning nay or must thy interpretation be the judge upon my words We have no such law my words stands true as I have laid them down to be received by such as are spiritual and such as loves to raise constructions falsely where there is no just ground their judgement I do deny and charity will teach P. T. to judge upon the best sence and so let him own my words as truth and judge himself for his false construction of true and upright words onely this I take notice of saith P. T. A perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of grace the spirit working all in us and for us is no other then the righteousness of the Law I need not much strive to confound this black doctrine by many arguments or multitude of words for the thing as laid down in his own words is vile and abominable to the understanding of any spiritual man for say I if it be the spirit working in us and for us not in our own strength then is it God that worketh in us both to will and to do and the fulfilling of the righteousness of the Law in us and not the righteousness of the Law wrought by us and if it be in the strength and power of grace not in our own strength then it is the work of Christ in us and the work of Gods own righteousness in us and any man that knows the least of God in truth will witness to this and against his imagined doctrine held forth by P. T. I might demand a proof of him from Scripture where it is said or signified that the working of the spirit all in us and for us and the working of the power of grace in the creature is reckoned to be our own righteousness the righteousness of the Law and my words stands true from which he draws his false consequences and layes down his dark assertions and my own words I do own which are such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him and in these words there is neither contradiction nor unsoundnesse though he hath ignorantly charged them with both but the words shall stand for a testimony against him and all his false deductions and he and all shall know that God justifies the righteous and condemns the wicked and that it is the new man that is justified and not the old and let righteous men judge what can be in such a mans heart who can draw so bad
SOMETHING OF TRUTH MADE MANIFEST In Relation to a Dispute at Draton in the County of Middlesex in the first Moneth last in opposition to the false account given of it by one Philip Taverner in his BOOK styled the QVAKERS-ROVNDS OR A Faithfull Account c. And this is written for the Truths sake by E. B. LONDON Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth neer Aldersgate 1658. FOrasmuch as one who hath I suppose ambitiously stiled himselfe Mr. Philip Taverner hath taken in hand to set forth to the view of the world an account relation of a dispute happening in the 11. moneth last at Draton neer Colebrook to which relation I am a little engaged to write somthing by way of answer thereunto that all people may know the truth and being the truth is somewhat concerned herein that is the reason wherefore I have taken in hand to write a little by way of answer to his relation being without any prejudice towards the man as concerning any wrong he hath done to me though me as well as the truth he hath wronged as may appeare to such who desire to know the truth It 's true a publique dispute I had the time and place mentioned with a company of Priests and this same Philip Taverner was one of them and the occasion of the Dispute was thus I being a few weeks before at a meeting with some friends in the said Towne one Richard Goodgroom in his relation mentioned was present at the hearing of what was spoken but at that time did not object any thing though afterwards in London and other places he went up and down in a backbiting manner and gave forth that I had held forth blasphemous Doctrine or the like whereupon I much desired a dispute for the tryall of those things and it was accomplished and that day the truth was much made manifest and deceit consounded and as to all the things objected agauist me by R. G. which he would have seemed to have taken great occasion thereby as if some great matter of heresie and errour had been uttered by me I say the very truth of all these things was demonstrated according as I had laid them down and his arguments against them made of none effect and though such as hardned their hearts might go unfatisfied and in greater unbelief then they came yet I am sure the upright-hearted and such as desired the knowledge of the truth were wholly satisfied and this many can give testimony of with me And though by his relation it may appear otherwise to some yet wherein he hath related falsly it shall fall upon his own head and his folly shall truly more appear in the end then he would have or seem to cause any in me to appear at this present and so he might with more credit to himself been silent then to have medled in that wherein he hath shewed himself so imperfect For I believe that this same Philip Taverner hath given a relation of four times as much as he did speak at that meeting and have related as though he spake that which he never uttered by so miny times so much as I have said and have not related so much by many times as was spoken by me and by them of my part as many may witnesse which work of his seems not to be perfect neither yet altogether honest as sober men may judge but such a thing must redownd more to his own dishonour then to the truths disadvantage And first as to the Title of his false relation which is stiled The Quakers Rounds or a faithfull Account c. To this I answer that the very Frontispiece and Title of his Book savours of a vain light scornfull spirit and so every spiritual man may judge of it to be so but why dost thou P. T. say a faithfull account but that to confirme falshood with audacious words having a shew of confidence upon it thereby the more easily to enter into the hearts of the people as if it were irreproveable coming also from the hand and under the hand of a Mr. Philip c. having so stiled thy self to make thy fame great and to publish thy work under a seeming authority but hadst thou had more humility lesse pride would have appeared and hadst thou had a better heart lesse of unfaithfull dealing would have proceeded from thee but as I have said evill shall fall upon himselfe that hatcheth it for another but why dost thou say Faithful Account in the Title page signifying to the world that all in it is true and nothing of truth wanting in relation to that Dispute and yet in thy Epistle saith thou dost not undertake to set down the multitude of words that that day was filled withal and page 29. saith that a third man of the company made a large discourse concerning the person justified but relates not one word what was said by him and here thou hast not dealt faithfully nor given a faithful account And page 31. thou saith E. B. at such a time did multiply many words but doth not relate his particular words and so hath not in this dealt faithfully nor given a faithful account and also in many other things thou hast not related what was spoken at all and thus thou hast contradicted thy self in saying a faithfull account and yet consessing in effect unfaithfulnesse And thy own words being compared together proves a contradiction in thy own minde and pen for to give a faithfull account as thou saist thou hast is to relate the whole truth and not to keep any back neither to speak more then the truth by adding thereto any thing But again thou saist thou undertak'st not to relate the multitude or every particular of words neither doth relate what particular words such a one and such a one spake but saith he said so and multiplyed many words not saying what his words were and therefore thou hast heaped a contradiction upon thy own head and it shall remain till it have made thee ashamed And now as to the particulars upon which the Dispute depended so far as they are truly laid down in my words and in my intent and meaning I am ready to justifie them at any place or time convenient or before any Auditory whatsoever upon lawfull occasion but as thou hast laid them down or some of them thou hast wronged me and the truth and either not understood my meaning or subverted and perverted my words to thy own advantage And whereas in the Epistle thou saist I would not owne them viz the particulars laid down to be mine at first and yet owned every one of them in the discourse c. Answ. I did not own them but how and how did I own them but thus the Objector had laid down some of the particulars not in my words which made them vary from the intent of my meaning and others of the particulars he had laid down utterly false and so I did
deny them as coming from him but as to the substance of some of the particulars I did own having laid them down according to my own honest meaning in my own found expression of words and thereupon I engaged a dispute upon the particulars having first denied them as laid down by him and in his corrupt expressions and then owned them in the simplicity in the words as by me uttered I mean some of them but some I altogether denied And as to speak of that Text Ioh. 5. 39. by which sayest thou I endeavoured to skin over what I spoke but to no punpose I do deny thy words for that same verse shal stand a witness for me and against thee in all the world and that verse shall prove that some of the Scriptures were spoken to the world and not to the Saints and the truth it self is my covering and I need no other thing to skin over as thou scornfully spakest And whereas thou sayest There was just matter of reproof in the dispute in both parties c. Answ. While thou hast condemned others thou hast judged thy self who was of the one party a strong contender for the Priests party and having now accused both parties would clear thy self to be of neither but cannot for it is known that thou didst take their part and in the title thou sayest the discourse was betwixt a party of them called Quakers with Mr. Philip T. c. where thou dost own thy self to be one and reckons thy self the formost Master of the Disputants and now upon better consideration I think when thou hast searched into their folly with whom thou wast joined thou wouldst absent thy self to be none of them but a third party but let me tell thee what disorder prejudice and passion as thou speaks of as was amongst the Priests thou hast a part in and must own their sin and their condemnation for thou art also guilty and that there was any passion except pure zeal for God and his truth which thou mightest falsely so call or prejudice or such like amongst us I db deny it and knows thee to have born a false testimony and all thy covers as if thou wert a moderator or the like in thy speaking will not hide thee nor cover thee from what I have said of thee But as to the things in particular I now come and may shew what my words are and the ground of them and how I laid them down and upon what occasion in the first meeting whereupon the Dispute did arise and I do not here go about to give a perfect relation of that Dispute for my memory hath not contained what passed but as to the intent and meaning of my words I would give all the true knowledge thereof and how far I do own the particulars charged against me First as to that The Scriptures are not the word of God because the Devil spoke something and Pharoah something which is there written Answ. There is some truth in this but my words were drawn up by him at the shortest and the most for his own advantage laid down by him for I do remember that in the first meeting I was a speaking concerning the Word of God and concerning the Scriptures which are a declaration thereof and shewing the difference betwixt the Word and the Letter and Scriptures for the Word of God was in the beginning and the world was made by it and it endures for ever but the Scriptures were not in the beginning for Moses was the first that wrote any thing of the Scripture who was long after the beginning neither was the world made by them neither can they endure for ever and therefore the letter the Scriptures are not the Word of God which the Scriptures call the Word for also in the Scriptures are written what the Devil spoke and what Pharoah and other wicked men spoke and therefore they are not the Word of God but as I have said a declaration of the Word and what is written of is the Word but the Scriptures the writings are not but a testimony and declaration of the Word much more as to this might be said and was spoken by me at the meeting which is not particularly related and this is sufficient to any honest man that is spiritual who hath an understanding to judge hereof Now I suppose themselves none of them are so ignorant as they will say the Scriptures are that Word which was in the beginning and which shall endure for ever but say they the Scriptures are another Word a declarative Word or such like terms now when we dispute or contend with any about the Word of God we dispute what that Word is which the Scripture saith is the Word and doth deny that Word to be the Scriptures writings though still we do own the Scriptures a declaration of that very Word of God and that the Scriptures in any place doth call themselves the Word or signifie so much I do deny it and it is left for any of our opposers to prove it that can if they do I will confess it to be the Word and revoke all that I have spoken to the contrary And as for thy deductions and consequences drawn from my words I do deny them for they are not to me but will turn upon thy self for thou sayest A strange kind of assertion as if nothing of the mind will and councel of God were declared in Scripture and whitherto can be the tendency of such giddy doctrines then to a weakening the authority of the Scriptures and begetting slightings and undervaluing thoughts and that the effects may be lightly esteeming the Scriptures These and such deductions hast thou drawn through thy ignorance from my words from all which I am clear as having no intent to any such things nor any intent but to testifie the pure innocent truth and thy deductions are far more ignorant and impudent then my assertion is strange and let thy consequences be what they will from my words the truth of my words will justifie me in the sight of God and his Saints for I do honour the Scriptures above other writings and gives them the authority and esteem and respect due unto them and more I dare not And some of thy pages I pass over as not worth taking notice of onely doth say thou hast wronged me in not relating so much as was spoken by us by far and in relating more then was spoken by thee or thy party And the next thing I note is this where R G. said he would and went about to prove that the Letter is the Word of God but was not nor is never able to prove and thou hast changed the words of his argument in thy relation from what they were as he laid them down in the dispute from called to owned For thus his words were laid down at that time said he That which Christ and the Apostles called the Word of God is indeed the Word
of God but Christ and the Apostles called the Scriptures the Word of God Ergo Now I denied and do yet that it can be proved that ever Christ and the Apostles called the Scriptures the Word of God and neither doth thy proofs now nor his then of the minor Proposition prove that the Scriptures viz. the writings were ever called the Word although it be true the Pharisees made the Word of God of no authority by their traditions but that Scripture doth not say that the Letter is the Word which thing he was to prove or else he said nothing to the purpose and as to the other Scripture 1 Thes. 1. 13. that will not prove that the Apostle called the Letter the Word for it was the Gospel which they received as the Word of God and not the Letter the Gospel is the Word of God not denied by me but sealed unto but the Gospel is not the Letter and writings but the Gospel is the thing written of and that is it which the Apostle means to be the Word of God for that is the Word which he preached to the Thessalonians and which they received and so thy arguments and proof of thy minor Position is denyed and so the major Position falls to the ground and by this nor any other argument can all you Priests of England prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God which thing R. G. took in hand to prove but could not and would have cryed against it in me as a great deal of heresie for denying it but error is fallen upon his own head The next thing I note is in page 13. where thou would seem to cover over R. G. thou sayest his words were not That I had the thing signified in my hand when I had the Bible but that I had that which declares of it Now to justifie him in evil thou hast wronged me and the truth for he did say when I held up my Bible I had in my hand the thing therein signified upon this very occasion I holding up my Bible in my hand and saying to this very effect that that in my hand I had the thing which did signifie in words of such and such things but I had not the thing signified and R. G. made answer and said but I had the thing signified and this some can witness whereupon I made answer and said if it be so that I have the thing signified in my hand then I have God and Christ and the Saints and Heaven and Hell men and beasts and all things that here in is written of and then he saw the folly of his own argument I perceive And much more as upon this subject was said on both parties which I desire not much to recollect onely what I have said I can certainly remember and can justifie it and I must confess that P. T. in some things hath done pretty fairly though in other things he hath not done so And now as to the next thing charged against me in the relation being placed the second though it is the third That evil motions not consented to were not sin in the first private meeting I remember my words was laid down thus and so I owned them in the Dispute that temptations or motions unto evil are not sin to any man who doth not consent and obey to serve temptations or evil motions and they are not sin to the man except they be consented to by the man and this was proved in the example of Christ who was tempted of the devil and had motions to do evil yet did not consent nor commit sin for he resisted and overcome the Tempter and so the devils motions and temptations which were sin in themselves yet they were not sin to him and this proof then they could not deny neither can any sober or upright man and so in the dispute the thing was put to a farther question Thus but are not those motions which arise out of a mans own heart sin except they be consented to To which I was willing to speak something and to own the very truth and to justifie that there is a state wherein evil motions may arise out of a mans own heart which are sin in themselves and sin in the man yet not sin to the man if he doth not consent to them obey them and fulfil them and the Scripture doth prove it Rom. 7. where he saith it is no more I that 〈◊〉 but sin that dwelleth in me for in his mind he served the Da◠of God and with his mind did not consent to the motions of evil and sin and the sin was not his nor reckoned against him by the Lord because with his mind he consented not and this no upright man can deny and also I applied my self at that time for witness to the experience of sober people and Christians whether many times there had not been evil motions in their hearts presenting themselves to which they had not consented but the Lord had given them power over them to resist them and deny them and they were not overcome of them and whether ever they were accused and condemned for such motions which the Lord gave them power against or whether the rather they had not peace and joy in the Lord who had discovered to them and given them power over the evil which had presented it self And I also gave them that which I had witnessed concerning the thing as a testimony agreeing with the Scriptures to that particular and though the relation saith as if I spoke of my present state to be so but here in the hearers were mistaken if so they understood me for my present state is another then what it once was I bless the Lord I speak without boasting and my present state I did not then nor now shall declare for I am not known to the world nor desires to be as what my state is but this was my intent and is in these things my state was say I yea I believe from ten years old till many years after that many times I had evil motions arising in my own heart which sometime overcame me and sometime the Lord gave me to overcome them so that I consented not to them nor obeyed nor followed them and when they did overcome me and lead me aside then was I troubled and condemned of the Lord for they were reckoned to be my sins when I consented and many times the Lord gave me power over them and I consented not but resisted them and denied them and then had I great peace and joy in the Lord and no condemnation and this was my experience for some years together though my present state be mother condition of which I shall not speak as not being needful at this time and this is the truth which no sober Christian can deny It 's true we spent a little time in disputing upon those things but to little purpose as on their part for what I
consequences from such upright words But farther he goes on and hath transcribed more of my words as Christ Iesus the Son of God is the light and life of the world and hath inlightned all mankind that comes into the world with the true light c. Now saith he how doth these agree with mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity and death raigns in every man he is possessed with blindness and unbelief c. I say these do very well agree and they are both true for death raigns in every man and he is in unbelief and ignorance and in a state of perfect enmity against God as he is in the first Adam yet Christ hath lightned him and the light of Christ shines in darkness in him and the darkness comprehends it not he is inlightned that he may be changed from death to life and from ignorance to knowledge and though he walk in darkness and be in blindness and in a state of enmity it is because he doth not walk and believe in the light which Christ hath lightned him withal and in my words there is no disagreement nor contradiction the darkness is in his own mind who cannot comprehend the light nor the words that proceed from it Further he questions upon my words of having the witness in themselves of being restored again First whether none are restored again but such as have the witness in themselves I answer all that are restored again and doth believe hath the witness in themselves and none doth believe nor are restored but they have the witness of it Secondly he queries whether all are restored but some want the witness in themselves I answer All are not restored nor doth believe and such wants the witness in themselves that are not restored to God but them that are restored wants it not And again he queries whether the light which is in all is sufficient without any thing further of grace super-added to bring up every man to believe in Christ c I answer The light which every man is lightned withal by Christ is sufficient to bring up every man to believe in Christ that loves the light and walks in it and unto such is grace added and increased daily for as every man improves the measure of the gift of God so it is increased the light is increased grace is increased faith is increased but still the light of Christ in it self is sufficient Again from my words to wit the spirit is given to be the guide and rule of life to the children of God from whence he queries whether the spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures I answer It is promised that the spirit shall lead into all truth and such doth own the Scriptures but not as their teacher for the anointing dwells in them and they need no man to teach them but as that anointing teacheth all things and they have no need of the Scripture to teach them for all the children of God are taught of God and needs not any other teacher nor needs not to say one to another know the Lord and yet all such doth own the Scriptures to be the testimony of that which they believe and have received Again from my words to wit the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to the truth of what I spake unto which I do commend my self from this he queries can these be witnesses to me and of the truth in me who are ignorant of the life and power of the Creator c. who are following the counsel of their own hearts which are evil c I answer Yes the light of Christ in such shall judge one day and to it I commend my self and by it one day shall be approved though now the wicked hate the light yet doth it witness against them and for us that we are of God though its true they cannot judge between light and darkness between truth and error yet the light in them which shines in their darkness doth judge and put a difference and when the book of conscience is opened it shall justifie us and condemn our enemies Again he queries whether I make the Holy Ghost and the eternal Spirit two I answer no they are one neither do I seem to make them two it is want of knowledge in him who cannot understand but raiseth objections where there is no cause Again from my words this is acceptable and well-pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity c. from this he questions whether the doing the greater things of the Law is acceptable where the less are neglected I answer No for every tittle of the Law less and greater must be fulfilled by Christ in us in whom we are accepted and thus I have returned a few words to the consideration of people and particularly the people of Draton and the Country thereabouts to whom I direct my speech thus All ye people who are scattered as sheep without a Shepherd and knows not Christ the everlasting shepherd to lead you to rule you cease oh cease from all your teachers without you who are dumb shepherds which doth not gather you to God such are they that preach for hire and devine for money and that takes gifts and rewards for preaching who through covetousness by feigned words doth make merchandise of souls such do keep you always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth under their teachings your souls are starved under them and you perish for want of true knowledge and death raigns amongst you and many are in the broad way that leads to destruction but few in the strait way that leads to life and iniquity and wickedness abounds amongst you and like teachers like people for from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness Jer. 6. 13. great ignorance hath blinded your minds and great darkness is over your hearts and your teachers doth deceive you and they cause you to erre and you give your money for that which is not bread and your labour for that which doth not profit even as the people of Israel did so do you and in their transgressions do you walk and your teachers are in the steps of the Pharisees they are called of men Master as the Pharisees were they stand praying in the Synagogues and Temples as the Pharisees did and they have the chief seats in the Assemblies as the Pharisees had and they even shut the kingdom of heaven against men as the Pharisees did and will not enter in themselves nor suffer them that would cease from all your outward Priests and hearken to the voice of the Lord which breaks down that nature which is contrary to God and raiseth up the seed which is heir of Gods kingdom turns your minds to the light