you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue if the other party will aduenture it as well as he It is most intollerable that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie Secondly for the tearmes of my questions which you call vnmannerly they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles as I shall quickly proue if you will vndertake to answer me And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse But perhaps this is a shift of yours to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes yet it shall not serue your turne for the more vnseemly that the questions are the more disgrace it will be to me and the more hard taske to proue them and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary so that this is no excuse for you at all Thirdly in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense that we haue neither Church nor Faith when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses and come to a strict forme of Disputation writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue that we haue no Church nor Faith let vs heare your arguments briefly Mr. Smith Well that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter let me aske you a question and doe you answer me that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion and make the truth of it plainely appeare First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible M. Walker The true Catholike Church is not visible neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth M. Smith Marke Gentlemen he will deny this Canon he saith the Catholike Church is not visible which I will proue to be against all reason Mr. Walker Indeed if I should say that it were visible considering it as it now is I should speake against all reason For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes and cannot be seene Mr. Smith You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation you know that I meane not the Church triumphant in heauen but the Catholike Church militant on earth Mr. Walker Nay rather doe you equiuocate or worse for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd as to say that all mankinde euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth when reason and experience teach vs that the greatest part are dead and many also yet vnborne I hope you know that the word Catholike signifies vniuersall and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene or is or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ and aâ—l they cannot bee seene at once on earth because they neuer were altogether on earth The militant number of them on earth are the least part of them Mr. Smith You doe wrangle to auoyde Dâ—sputation I therefore tell you that by the Catholiâ—e militant Church I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey as it is the pillar and ground of truâ—h now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible M. Walker I iudge of your meaning by your words and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of to be the Catholike that is the vniuersall Church for euery true particular Church in which euery true Christian doth loue and whereof he is a member is that which he ought to heare and to obey because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it it is the house of God and the pillar and firmament of truth Now euery such Church is partly visible and partly inuisible M. Smith How is it visible and how is it inuisible Mr. Walker Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men professing outwardly in word and practise true Christian religion who doe belong to the Catholike Church and are true liuely members of Christ It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity but are not truely ingraffed into Christ by vnion and communion of the Spirit neither haue the true holy sauing Faith and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church Now the men who professe religion in the Church and are the members of it if we consider them as they are men and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians as preaching and hearing of the word administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like they are visible But as for the election faith spirituall and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort by which they are indeed true christians belong to the Catholike Church and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort by meanes whereof they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit they are things inuisible and to be discerned spiritually not with bodily eyes Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible to wit in respect of the spirituall graces which make men true Christians indeed and partly visible to wit in respect of the outward profession common both to elect and reprobates to faithfull men and hypocrites Mr. Smith No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger protested with vehemency of words that now he saw indeed there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants they were all so contrary among themselues neuer agreeing together in any opinion He affirmed to the standers by that Doctor Whitakers Doctor Reignolds Mr. Perkins and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant that the true Catholike Church was visible Another Priest sitting by scornefully repeated the name of Perkins and spake of him as of a poore silly man not worthy to be counted among the learned Mr. Walker Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one and the scorne of the other first answered the scorner that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests outwardly to sleight vilifie before the people such as do most cut and gall them To Mr. Smith he answered that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church and the true faith as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false
this question Whether the whoâ—e militant Church of England may erre Mr. Walker I answer to this as before that it is a captious and ambiguous confused question and that this militant Church as the rest may erre and not erre according to the former diuers respects and considerations Mr. Smith Whether is the Church of England so tyed to the word of God and such helps that it cannot erre nor misinterpret the Scriptures in fundamentall points of Faith Mr. Walker I answer that as in all other particular Churches so in the particular Churches of England there is a double voice one of the Church as shee is the true Church of Christ and that is both her voice commending the Scriptures onely to bee beleeued as necessary for sauing knowledge and true faith and also the voice of GOD plainely speaking in the Scriptures in this respect she is so tyed that shee cannot erre There is another voice which the Church vttereth not immediately from her selfe by the Commission which Christ gaue vnto her but by her fraile members suppose a Synode and assembly of Pastors taking vpon them to determine things doubtfull out of obscure places of Scripture and to make them more plaine then the Scriptures doe vpon which they build This voyce may erre and by it the Church may be said after a sort to erre in some part though not wholly nor finally nor obstinately because if it bee a true Church it will not absolutely and peremptorily determine that which the Scriptures leaue doubtfull neither will it persist alwayes in the errors if they be deadly but either the whole number or at least some in the number of the Church will renounce it and so the whole shall not erre finally This is my answer But because I would giue you some ground whereon to fasten that we may not spend time in questions but may come to disputation which is the intent of our meeting I will grant you thus much that the Church of England may erre for a time and after some manner in a point fundamentall or necessary to saluation Ground what you can vpon this and let vs haue some disputation by way of strict Arguments and Syllogismes Mr. Smith I haue enough out of your owne confession to proue that you haue neither Church nor Faith And I pray you Gentlemen to marke and take notice he grants that the Protestant Church of England may erre in a fundamentall point if in one then as well in another and so from one to another till it erre in all and so haue no faith at all and hauing no faith it is no Church Thus you see I haue proued that Protestants haue neither church nor Faith and therefore I beseech you all take heede of them who by their owne confession haue forsaken the Catholicke Church and faith and doe wilfull runne into all damnable errors and heresies and lead men into destrustion You see how plainely they are conuinced and I appeale to you all Iudge whether I haue not plainely proued that which I did vnder take to wit that they haue neither Church nor Faith and so are in a most damnable estate Mr. Walker To these words vttered with great vehemency and action of the hands and whole body Mr. Walker standing vp and putting of his Hat made this reply First saith hee though it was your motion and my desire that I might talke mildly without bitter words yet seeing hee first breakes out so vnreasonably and goe about by bitter and reproachfull words and gestures to beare downe the truth I must craue leaue of these Gentlemen to answer you in your kinde though it be very vnseemly that in my manner of answer you may behold the vnseemlynesse of your disputing and then with like words voice and gestures he answered to this effect First where as you say that you haue proued that which you did vndertake you shew your selfe without wit or reason for you are not able to bring one word of reason by way of argument till I doe lay you a ground as all here doe see and therefore if you seeme to proue any thing you must thanke me for it who doe yeeld more then you can proue Secondly your argument is without all forme order or reason for it doth not follow that euery Church which may erre in one point may erre in all points at once and fall wholly away because God hath promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuaile against his Church so farre as to put it quite from the foundation though it may Build stubble and straw vpon the foundation by erring in some points for a time Thirdly though it bee not impossible for the true Church to erre yea though it were granted that it might wholly fall away from all faith yet it doth not there vpon follow that it doth so and that now presently it hath no faith neither is a Church at all Thus Gentlemen you see how I haue proued this man by his owne speech to bee without wit reason modesty or honesty roauing without wit or reason railing without modesty and falsly charging vs against all shew of honesty But I feare me that this kind of Frier-like preaching is odious and distastfull to all iudicious beholders I pray you let vs dispute orderly and according to art And if you be able to dispute Scholler-like let vs haue one argument framed into a short Syllogisme Mr. Smith I warrant you I can make Syllogismes to your small comfort Mr. Walker And I doubt not but I shall as easily answer them to your small ease Mr. Smith Then he with much adoe vttered this Syllogisme and caused it to be written downe That Church which hath not the word of God truely preached and infallibly deliuered vnto it is not the true Church of Christ But the Protestant Church is such Ergo. Mr. Walker I distinguish vpon the Maior proposition For if you meane the word truly preached and infallibly deliuered in euery particular point so that it can neuer erre any manner of way in any such point I denie the Maior vpon example and warrant from the Apostles and doe hold that a true Church may for a time haue the word not truly deliuered and infallibly in some point and yet be a true Church But if you vnderstand a totall erring in all points and a preaching of the whole word vntruly then is your Minor most false for Protestant Churches doe not preach the whole word vntruly at any time Now proue you which of your propositions you please For in these senses which I haue named both are false Mr. Smith The Maior is so manifest that it needs no proofe neither can be denyed for how is it possible for any Church to be a true Church which hath not the word truly preached in all points Mr. Walker It is to mee a manifest vntruth and therefore proue it true if you can if you cannot then yeeld the cause that is false Mr. Smith I proue
it thus That Church which hath not the word of God truly preached but falsely translated is no true Church Such is the Church of England Ergo. Mr. Walker This is no proofe of that proposition which I denyed and which you did vndertake to proue and therefore you shew your selfe ignorant in disputing and doe commit that fallacy against the rules of Logicke which wee call Ignorationem elenchi Mr. Smith It is a true Syllogisme and proues the maine matter in controuersie to wit that you haue no true Church Mr. Walker But the thing which you were to proue was that the Church which hath not Gods word truly preached and infallibly deliuered in euery point at all times is not a true Church This because you cannot tell how to proue as you did vndertake therefore you flee to another new Argument to which also I doe answer as I did to the former First that the Maior proposition is false For a Church which hath the word of God falsely or erroneously translated in some parts and so not truely preached in euery part may be a true Church Secondly if you meane falsely translated and not truely preached of purpose and wilfully then the Minor is false for though the translation of the Church of England may faile and misse of the true meaning of diuers places as all the best translations especially the vulgar Latine approued by the Romish Church doth yet it is not so erroneously translated of purpose neither doe all the Preachers thereof build certainly on such erronious and false translations but many doe discerne them and preach and teach the true oppositions and the Church alloweth them so to doe when they shew good reasons for their doings from the circumstances of the Text. Mr. Smith But I will shew plainly by diuers Examples that you haue diuers places of Scripture falsly translated in your translation of set purpose and wilfully contrary to the words of the Hebrew Text contrary also to the Greeke and Latine receiued in all ages and Churches heertofore Mr. Walker You threaten largely in wordes which are but winde but indeede you can neuer performe that which you say Let vs see if you bee able to shew any part of our translation wherein one word is falsely translated of purpose I desire no more but to ioyne a Combat with you hand to hand about the Hebrew text and about the truth of our translation and the agreement of it with the Originall Mr. Smith I shall quickly proue what I say and what you require First I haue a plaine example Malachi 2. 7. where your translators read the words thus The Priests lippes should keepe knowledge and they should seeke the Law at his mouth First this translation is false because it is contrary to the Hebrew text wherein the words are Iishmeru they shall keepe and Iebakshu they shall seek and not they should keepe nor they should seeke Also it is contrary to the Greeke wherein the words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and to the Latine translation of St. Hierome which is Custodient and requirent Secondly it teacheth heresie and false doctrine namely that Gods Priests they who sit in Moses Chayre may erre contrary to the words of Christ who commands his Disciples to heare all such as sit in Moses Chayre because they shall not erre but their lips shall preserue knowledge Thirdly it is thus corrupted of purpose to gainsay the infallibility of the Pastors of the Church who doe succeed in the Chayre of the Apostles and to blinde the peoples eyes that they may not see the certainty and infallibility of iudgement in the Priests and Pastors who sit in Moses Chaire how they are bound to seek the Law at their mouth but may follow any vpstart teachers which separate from the Catholicke Church Thus you see Gentlemen all how plainely I haue proued that the Church of England hath of purpose corrupted the Scriptures and therefore is no true Church Mr. Walker Indeed if that which you say were true you did speake something to the purpose but great words and protestations cannot make truth to be falshood nor falshood truth as for the Example which you cite out of our English translation Mal. 2. 7. I deny it to be contrary to the Hebrew text yea I will easily proue both from the Hebrew words which you haue here shewed in the Hebrew Interlinear Bible and also from the whole scope and all circumstances of the place that the English is the best translation more perfect then either the Greek or Latine First though the Hebrew words Iishmeru Iebakshu be of the Futuretense yet this doth not proue that they should be translated so in our tongue because you cannot but know if you haue any skill in the Hebrew tongue that the future tense in Hebrewe sometime simply and sometime by meanes of Vau conuersiue signifies time either perfectly or imperfectly past somtimes it stands for the Optatiue Potentiall and Subiunctiue moode therefore our translation is not differēt nor irregular from the Hebrewe which is the originall Secondly it was neuer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place or by these words to teach that the Lawe should alwayes bee taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastors who succeede Moses or the Apostles locally in the Church by a continued succession for that is a falshood contrary to the experience of all ages this very place confutes it most euidently For the Priests vnto whome the Prophet here speaks in these places were Leuites and succeeded Aaron in the Priesthood and yet they were departed out of the way they caused many to fall in the law by their corrupt glosse and their abuse of the Couenant of Leui. As it appeares in the next words immediately following yea some of them had sacrificed to Idolls as Iosephus shewes in his History of those times and therfore the Lord threatens to corrupt their seed by cutting off the male progeny and to cast the dung of their Sacrifice in their faces so that the Priesthood of Phineas should by a sister married into the Tribe of Iudath to one of Dauids line fall to Christ who desended of her and hee should take it away to himselfe for euer as is intimated in the 3. verse of the same Chapter So then it is no heresie but Gods holy truth that Priests succeeding in the place and office of Aaron and Moses may erre and haue erred Moset his Chaire in which the Scribes and Pharisies did sit was the seat wherein they were wont to read the Law of Moses and the expositions of the Prophets to the people and therfore what they there did teach was true and Christ commanded his Disciples to obey it But in their owne glosses and traditions they erred damnably made void Gods Law and their Doctrine our Sauiour called soure leauen and warned his Disciples to beware of it Thirdly they who translate the words
thus The Priests lippes shall keepe knowledge and they shall seeke the Law at his mouch Did neuer intend to shew thereby that God did make here a promise that so it shall bee for euer but onely to shew that this is the Law and Commandement of God teaching what the Priests and People should doe and ought to doe euen as in the Commaudement Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me The words doe not promise that the Israelites should alwaies acknowledge and worship Iehouah the true God alone for the euent shewed the contrary within 40. payes but shew what they ought to doe but the words are a coms mandement recited not a promise made the wordof the 4. verse shew Therefore our English translation is most perfect of all shewing not onely the sense and meaning of the Law but also how it did binde the Priest and People and how they ought to obey it Thus you see how your example doth make for vs against your selfe Mr. Smith Mr. Smith finding worse successe then hee expected in this example and perceiuing the standers by to be well satisfied with this answer flees presently to another to wit Dan. 4. 27. where in our English Translation the words run thus Breake off thy sins by righteousnes thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poore Here saith he the word in the Chaldee which is the Originall Perok signifies to Redeeme and so the Greeke and Latine Translations render it but your Translations of purpose contrary to all the ancient receiued Translators and to the nature of the word in the originall do translate it Breake off and that of purpose to oppose the true doctrine of satisfaction merit by good works Therefore your Church is a false Church Mr. Walker Howsoeuer other translations run I am sure our English is in sense most sound Orthodoxe That translation which counsels Nabuchadnezar to redeeme his sins by righteousnesse is as the words doerun senslesse and against all reason For God neuer appointed that mens sinnes should bee redeemed but his will is that they should bee mortified and destroyed and he so hates them that hee cannot leaue them vnpunished but will haue iust vengeance to be executed for them eithervpon the sinner himselfe or on his surety If you vnderstand the words as you seeme to vrge them that Nabuchadnezar a wicked Heathen King should by his own righteousnesse redeeme himselfe from his sins you doe make Daniel a teacher of heresie and blasphemie for it is no lesse then blasphemy to hold that an Idolatrous Pagan may by his owne righteousnesse redeeme himselfe it makes void the promise of Christ the Redeemer But our English translation doth teach excellent truth to wit that a true conuert ought not only to beleeue in Christ and by faith to put on the Robe of Righteousnesse that therin he may appeare righteous before God and comely in his sight but also to breake off his sinfull course of life and neuer to goe on any longer in any knowne sinne as Papists doe in hope of absolution by confession and pennance And therefore I doubt not but the word in the originall will be more agreeable to our translation when wee come to see and examine it if you be pleased to let me see your Hebrew Bible Mr. Smith Loe here in the originall the word is in the Caldee Perok which signifies onely to redeeme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Greeke translation renders it and the Latine Redeeme Mr. Walker I thought that wee should finde it thus when we came to the tryall dare you here before these Gentlemen put on such an impudent face as to affirme without feare or shame that this Parak signifies only to redeeme and nothing else Mr. Smith I confesseit signifies also to breake in sunder but neuer to breake off Mr. Walker Yea it signifies all kinde of breaking euen breaking asunder breaking a pieces and breaking off for indeed it is an Hebrew word and the Caldee borrowes it form the Hebrew the first and most proper signification of it is to breake asunder or to breake off and it doth signifie to Redeeme only in a trope by a Metominie of the cause for the effect for men are redeemed out of bondage by hauing their yoke of bondage broken off from their necke and their chaines and fetters broken in sunder and that that breaking is the meanes of their Redemption That it signifies properly to breake off appeares by the common vse of it in the Scriptures as Gen. 27. 40. where Isaac saith to Esau. Thou shalt breake off his yoke from thy necke Exod. 32. 2. where Aaron said to the people Breake off the golden eare-rings which are in the eares of your wiues c. Thus Gentlemen you see what a bold face this man can set vpon a falshood and how hee goeth about to beare downe the truth with great words Sir Edward Harwood Vpon this Sir Edward Harwood stood vp and said that Mr. Smith hath failed much in this proofe seeing the word in the original did beare another sense more proper then that which he vrged for the only true sense And that the proper sense which the English translation did follow being so agreeable to the rule of faith was rather to be embraced M. Smith M. Smith thus confounded had no shift but this That the Hebrew text was by the malice of the Iewes corrupted in many things and that it was written of old without pricks vntill the Iewish Massorites did inuent pricks and vowels by which we doe reade it diuers hundreds of yeeres after Christ And therefore he would not build naturall point on the originall Hebrew words Mr. Walker Now saith Mr. Walker you shew you selse what you are in your owne colours euen one who esteemes no authority or testimony either of God or man further then they serue your owne turne while you immagined that the Hebrew Text was against our translation you did vrge it with great vehemencie as the authority and testimony of God Now when it failes you and contrary to your expectation doth make for vs you vilifie it and reiect it as a thing corrupted by the Iewes and formed according to the minde and pleasure of the Iewish Massorites wherein you shew not onely vanity of mind and inconstancie but also malice and wickednesse ioined with wilfull ignorance For how soeuer Elias Leuita a turnecoate Iew of later times may seeme to affirme such a thing perhaps to please his Patron Aegidius that the Vowels were inuented by the Massorites of Tiberias yet it is the iudgement of all the best learned both Iewish Rabbins and Christians that the pricks vowels and accents were from the beginning And the Massorites were Iewes gathered both out of the East and West of purpose to compare their most auncient and authentick Manuscrips together and when they found them all to agree in Letters and points they made their Massorah and noted how many times such a word was written with